WEBVTT
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In Wisconsin, next door to where I am right now, there's really one desk you need to go to to get a stormwater permit.
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In Minnesota, you've got to get the watershed districts, you've got to get environmental agencies on board, and you know, you've got to get the Army Corps of Engineers.
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And by the time you get all these groups happy, none of them are happy because all their changes cancel each other out.
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Hey, what's going on, everybody?
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Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
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I am your host, Ryan Glick.
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I'm excited today to be joined by Nick Erickson.
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Nick is the executive director at the Housing Affordability Institute and Senior Director of Housing Policy at Housing First Minnesota.
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Nick, thanks for joining me.
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Thanks for having me on.
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Happy to be here.
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Well, we are from when this is going to be released.
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We're going to be, I think, just a couple weeks away or so from the midterm.
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So there's a lot of talk, it feels like, around housing policy and what different politicians are talking about, or what are some things that the, you know, the advocates out there for housing are looking for politicians to be talking about.
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So I know we've got some good stuff we're going to get into here today.
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But before we do that, I want to start out this episode like I do every other episode and digging into some of your background.
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And I think uh where I'd like to start there is how did you get into kind of this political landscape?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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Uh so I've been working in public affairs for uh really the the last two decades.
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And as I was looking about 10 years ago to transition to something new, I was really, you know, taken by the what was then kind of the nascent housing reform movement.
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Um, really trying to look at something that is a mission-driven job, something I can really devote my time and attention to in a way that really betters my community.
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And uh this opportunity to housing first Minnesota opened up.
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They were expanding their public affairs team and and jumped into it at that point in time and have spent the last year or last decade now, you know, fighting for increased access to home ownership.
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First in Minnesota, now with Housing Affordability Institute, really across the country.
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So do you think that your experience that you had early on in your career on the political side of things has helped you now that you're into the housing side?
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Oh, 100%.
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Yeah, I was a political strategist uh early in my career.
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Uh, and then from there I transitioned to healthcare and working for uh United Health Group, the nation's largest healthcare company, following the implementation of healthcare reform.
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And I and I see, you know, it's the lot of parallels between my job there and what I do now.
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I think first it's how do you explain complex policy in a way that is simplified so that you know the average person in my time United Health Group, it was the employees of the company uh and the executive, how do you understand, you know, kind of the you know, the moving pieces there?
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But then, you know, also, you know, how do you take complex change that's going on uh in the policy space and kind of navigate those challenges and coming to housing, really be able to rely on those political and and you know corporate skills and experiences that I had as we're looking at how to increase homeownership opportunities here in Minnesota?
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So before we get into, I've got several things I want to dig into today, but before we get into those, I do want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about the Housing Affordability Institute.
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Um, what does the organization do and kind of what does your day-to-day look like uh within the organization?
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Yeah, uh so Housing Affordability Institute was founded in 2018 by Housing First Minnesota.
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It's uh probably best described as a trade association for the housing industry here in Minnesota.
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And we founded the institute because we didn't have the data, the analysis, and kind of the policy needs that we as an organization needed at the point in time.
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Uh so we decided to go out and, you know, since it wasn't available, let's build it.
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We're very entrepreneurial here at Housing First.
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And so we built out a policy development program around uh Housing Affordability Institute and really started to explain why homes cost more in Minnesota than they do anywhere in the upper Midwest.
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In fact, it's more expensive to build a new home in Minneapolis, St.
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Paul than it is in the Chicago region.
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And so we're trying to highlight why that is.
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And as the housing discussion has grown around the country, what we found is that there's really not an industry-centric voice, kind of the the view of the home builders, their trade partners, the land developers, that's explaining why we need, you know, to break down barriers to housing and why that state intervention or local intervention and even federal action is necessary.
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So uh we built out that organization and really part of my job now the last uh eight, nine years, has to been to grow uh the institute.
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We've really taken it from something that was focused initially here in Minnesota and have taken that discussion broadly across the country, working with different uh reform advocates across the United States to really see how do we move the needle on housing access and affordability in America?
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So as we head into the midterms, I feel like I've been hearing a lot more about housing as a topic from various politicians.
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And I feel like it's from politicians on both sides sides of the aisle that they're talking about housing a little bit more than they used to in the past.
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Do you see housing as a big topic for politicians heading into the midterms?
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Is that what you're seeing as well, or is it not as big of a topic as it should be?
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I think it is a major topic that folks are hearing about.
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I but I also think it that that does need to grow.
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I don't think it's quite enough.
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But then I, you know, I'm biased.
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Housing is my life.
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But really, this does go back to 2024.
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We first saw in the mid, or sorry, in the in the presidential election last year, polling starting to indicate that that housing, if you strip away the more partisan issues that that campaigns are pushing, once you strip those away, housing was a top issue for voters uh in the 2024 election.
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And you know, someone who spent at that point in time eight years working to get you know housing to be a top political issue, it was surprising and and you know, frankly, overdue to see uh the housing shortage in America really elevate to a need, especially in the presidential year.
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And as amazing as that was, even this year, to see that go above and beyond, to see, you know, poll after poll, um, talk to candidates, uh elected officials across the country, talk to political organizations that are all saying the same thing.
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Housing is a top issue with voters this year.
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And you know, we saw it recently with the CNBC poll.
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It's the number one issue for voters under 34.
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And it's the number two issue when you include voters under the age of 50.
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So you think about that younger cohort, 18 to 34, 18 to 35.
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These are individuals who've known nothing of but the housing shortage and the housing crisis in America as they're coming into being an owner, prospective owner, a renter.
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You know, the older group had seen those momentous rise in in rents and the existing home prices just keep climbing, climbing, and climbing because of the housing shortage.
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So the older group who may have gotten into home ownership early or got into rental early in their 20s, for them, they've seen that affordability erode.
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The younger cohort has had even a more grim uh view of the housing market, one where they're just they're they're shut out of ownership.
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They're they're finding it increasingly more shut out of uh rental opportunities.
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And so it really makes sense when you look at the underlying, you know, issues in housing is to see why it's become a pain point.
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And and with numbers, you know, we're seeing in polls of of support for housing reform, it's no surprise that we see this bipartisan support for action because the voters of all stripes are demanding action, you know, state and federal level.
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So my unofficial polling that I do online with the uh with the end consumer is that we will put clips of the show on different social media platforms.
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Different platforms are more outspoken than others.
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And sometimes you get, you know, the loudest people that people are most upset on on one side or the other are going to be the ones who comment and the others don't necessarily comment on things.
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But we have definitely seen a lot of people out there, the consumers specifically, who are who want to buy homes, that they this is an issue that they get very they're very passionate about.
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I mean, they there's a lot of yelling happening in the comments on some posts and everything.
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And I know you have to be careful on social media because you never know if it's even real people that are doing the yelling in the comments, but you know, it does seem to be pretty consistent with certain topics that we put out there that people want to buy homes.
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They they feel like they can't buy buy a home right now, and they're being told that they can't buy a home.
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And then at the same time, it does feel like a lot of the politicians somewhat gaslight, you know, everybody and say, like, you know, this is a this is a great economy, everything's great, and you should be able to buy a house right now.
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And I wonder what what are the things that the candidates that you're seeing candidates actually talk about?
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I know they're not talking about maybe enough, but are there certain topics or certain reforms that they're actually bringing up and considering, you know, putting in place when they, you know, after the midterms?
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Yeah, you know, it's it's a great question.
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So you see candidates, they're always talking about issues.
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I think obviously that the safest way to talk about it is a general way of we're gonna take action on housing, especially when you're seeing poll numbers in the, you know, 80, 90% for some of these policy proposals.
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But what we're we're seeing out there, and I've checked in with with friends across the country, is they're we're seeing candidates talk about it in a way that is reflective of their political beliefs.
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And so oftentimes you're gonna hear Republican candidates talking about breaking down barriers, removing red tape, regulatory reform.
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And then on the flip side, on the on the left, you hear some Democrat candidates talking about making it easier to build homes.
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We have to make it easier to build apartments, we have to do something about the permitting timelines.
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In reality, we're talking about the same, the same thing.
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And I think it's funny because I was just reading a story about the the Michigan governor's race last week, and it was a very similar story of one Republican says X, Democrats says Y, they disagree on housing.
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Well, they disagree on the messaging, I think.
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And you know, we're we're seeing that here in Minnesota uh in our governor's race as well, where we've had uh you know, Senator Amy Klobuchar, Democrat candidate for governor, talk about some very more specific ways to address the housing shortage in Minnesota, expressing support for uh the proposed zoning reform bill that's been floating around the Capitol for several years.
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At the same time, we've seen Republican Speaker of the House, the Republican candidate, Lisa Damouth, express concerns over the how long it takes to build homes, the cost disparities between Minnesota and other markets.
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And so what we do see is candidates talk about it in a way that I think resonates with them, resonates with their constituencies, but is still about action.
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The Mountain West is ground zero for this discussion.
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And you have Governor Gianforte in Montana, Governor Polis in in Colorado who have been working hard in their states pressing forward for reforms.
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And we saw that then both governors were supportive of relatively the same policies.
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They just talked about it in a way that really resonated more with their constituency.
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Do you think that, and you mentioned the a lot of times the Republicans and Democrats have they want to get to the same place, their messaging may be differently in some cases around when it comes to housing.
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Do you think that that ultimately is going to lead to a stalemate and basically not, you know, get us to a point where nothing gets passed because the, you know, the Democrats want to do it this way, the Republicans want to do it this way.
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They can't come to an agreement.
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So things get stripped out of the bill, and then you end up with a bill that basically it doesn't really do anything.
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It has a fancy name and everything, but a lot of the meat of the bill gets stripped out and and then everybody celebrates like it did something big for for the people.
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We haven't seen that yet in a lot of these these bipartisan reforms across the country.
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And and, you know, well, we haven't had comprehensive reform passed yet in Minnesota.
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I can tell you, sitting with a lot of uh lawmakers with yours, so we have the closest closely divided legislature in the nation right now in Minnesota.
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Our state Senate has 67 members and it's a 34-33 split.
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And our House of Representatives is an even 67-67.
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You can't get more divided than that, than the closely divided than the than those numbers.
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And we, you know, I'll talk with lawmakers who will be, you know, sharing jabs with each other on social media about non-housing issues, and you know, 10 minutes later head to a committee hearing and partner with one another.
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And I think what we're seeing in the housing discussion across the country, and I've spoken with my friends in in Arizona, we're seeing it in in Texas, Florida, other states, they're coming together around housing because one, the barriers are so immense.
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Two, I think the landed land development discussion, the zoning reform, you know, what we build where, that part of the discussion is so integral to moving forward on housing that you don't see the division that you do with other issues.
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This is not housing 20 years ago, where housing probably meant subsidies, frankly.
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That's what housing policy meant 20 years ago at the state and federal levels.
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And it's whether it's LITEC or just straight donations to organizations to build housing.
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So you have different approaches, again, two sides of the same coin.
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But with policy reforms, we do see at least on the major barriers, both parties uniting around moving forward.
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And and yes, they'll they'll finesse the messaging in their in their terms, but at the end of the day, it's about allowing you know more housing options and more places and and breaking down the local government barriers to building more homes.
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All right, let's get back to the show.
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I want to dig in a little bit to the different levels of government because we obviously have federal races, we have state races, we have local, you know, races that happen or local elected officials.
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And, you know, when we talk about housing, I hear a lot of people talk about things that should be done at different levels.
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And I'm curious from your perspective, you know, what can actually be done at each level?
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Like what's what should be the goal at the federal level versus the state versus local?
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You know, from levels of government, I always try to explain housing as our regulatory pyramid is inverted from pretty much every other major part of the of the economy.
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If you look at most industries, the greatest impact is the federal government.
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In the middle, you'll have states, and really that last mile of regulatory barriers or regulatory involvement is local government.
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But with housing and any and all land development, you have to flip that on its head.
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Our number one barrier for anyone involved in the land development space, housing construction, whether it's rental, ownership, multifamily mixed use, it is local government.
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They're the primary permitting regulator for both land use permits and building permits.
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So by nature, they are going to have uh the greatest regulatory impact.
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In the states, I say states are secondary because you have state environmental laws, you have state land use laws is what authorizes local governments to plan and zone.
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You'll have building codes that are either going to be local or state, depending on what part of the country you're talking about.
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You're going to have environmental reviews and all the other labor taxes that go into uh housing.
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And then the federal government does have its federal environmental regulations and reviews, suggestions, financing, you know, fiscal policy, particularly on the lending side.
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But we're just a different industry.
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And so as we're talking about the barriers to breakdown, it constantly coming back to uh the discussion about that tension between the role of the state versus the role of local government.
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But I think that the 21st Century Road to Housing Act is a prime example.
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It is a bill that's trying to break down barriers where they exist without being a fix everything in one package type bill, at least on the federal side.
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But the environmental review relief, you know, the model, your changes to the to the modular and uh mobile home construction language, but then in trying to incentivize state-local governments to do the right thing.
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That is, I think, what we're seeing is, you know, kind of the federal government taking its first step into this discussion.
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But the battleground really does remain state capitals across the country.
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And this is where a lot of the discussion is coming from.
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Because we're not getting the critical mass at the local level that's needed to really break down barriers.
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And it's not just land use and zoning, that is definitely the largest and most critical barrier to break down, but there's others that that need it need to get discussed.
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And we're seeing states move into those discussions, cities moving into those discussions as we're, you know, seeing more and more states take action on land use and zoning.
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So something I find interesting on that topic is that the voters, one of the top issues, as you mentioned, for voters is housing.
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And they want housing.
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There's a lot of people in that Gen Z, you know, Gen Z demographic that they don't feel like they have housing available to them.
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And I'm talking about owning a home, not necessarily renting.
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And yet when, you know, they may vote for it at the federal level, but you're talking about how a lot of this happens at the local level.
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You still see a lot of people complain about the projects that are being done to bring in some of that additional housing and additional, you know, options for them.
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And I wonder if that's just like a is that a messaging issue?
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Is it is it literally not as big of a deal as maybe it's made to seem because those those people who oppose projects are just the loudest.
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And so you hear them, but there's few of them.
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And but they do have the ability to kill projects if they can get to some of the local uh leaders who are deciding and voting on some of these things, if they're like, hey, I I want to get re-elected, and these people are screaming loud, you know, at me.
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I'm I'm gonna go ahead and kill this project because I don't want to hear, you know, hear from these people.
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Do you think it's a messaging thing, or do you think it's maybe not as big of a deal, or not as many people are opposing these projects as it possibly seems?
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I think it's it's a combination of the two.
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I do think the resistance that we see at the local level, yet the high polling we see on housing reform, it's kind of like Congress.
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Congress itself has a very low approval rating, yet everyone loves their member of Congress and we see high re-election rates.
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I I think it's a little bit of that going on, but I think more specifically at the local level, it truly is the minority of people coming to speak out uh against the project.
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Part of my job is you know with Housing First is to attend, you know, when needed, uh local government meetings, whether it's planning commission, city council.
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It might seem like there's a lot of folks in these meetings speaking against the project, but more often than not, it is you know, five, ten people in a community of 20,000, 50,000, 70,000.
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Well, you can probably find five people anywhere upset about something.
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And I do think part of it needs to be that there has to be a recognition that at least from the people who are opposing these projects, oftentimes that your property rights end at your property line because that's where the next person's property rights begin.
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And I have a hard time believing that if the shoe were on the other foot, that the same people opposing all these projects wouldn't also be annoyed if their neighbors were telling them what they could do with their land.
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Where where are you seeing both parties actually agree?
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Is it is it on most things when it comes to housing, or are there only certain things that both parties are agreeing on?
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:45.920
On the agreement for kind of the bipartisanship and housing reform, I'd say definitely the federal level uh is a great example.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.359
Now, there's some of the funding details due need to be worked out yet.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:58.000
On the land use and zoning front, again, it is very much a discussion about you know whether or not we're going to take action on this or not.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:06.960
Do you is Local control, you know, kind of the prime directive for state government, or is it to address the needs of the people?
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.319
That really is where we're seeing, you know, that discussion going.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.279
And by and large, that is a bipartisan conversation.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:19.440
I'd say that the partisanship on land use is generational, probably not as much partisan.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:41.200
If you, if you've owned your home for a while, maybe it's paid off, maybe you know, you're nearing that point, you haven't experienced the housing shortage, you probably don't feel it and experience it in the same way that somebody who is, you know, 25 years old, fresh out of college, can't can barely afford to rent, not looking to ever own a home is going to think about it.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:48.160
But there are issues out there where we are seeing, you know, definitely much more alignment over party lines.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:58.240
I think we're seeing a discussion on energy dis energy codes in both Minnesota and Washington that is taking a very partisan view.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.160
We're seeing this in Colorado, right?
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.799
How we're going to do it going forward does get partisan.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.559
And you know, sometimes on just the general role of government, uh, you know, do we want inclusionary zoning or not?
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.240
Do we want rent control or not?
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.759
Those are generally going to be more partisan-level discussions.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:37.119
But on the land use side, again, there is broad-based support from the voters.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.319
There's broad-based support politically across all parties.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:50.319
You know, I always joke that you have Governor Newsom in California and the Texas governor sign this pretty much the same housing policy into law.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:24:00.559
You had Governor Gene Forte in Montana, one of the most conservative governors uh in the country, sign um the same legislation or similar legislation as Governor Polis did in Colorado.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:13.599
And these are abutting states with, you know, red state, blue state type type political systems, yet they're all supporting the same uh notion that uh the state has to pick up the mantle and run with housing if local government won't.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:30.319
Do you think, you know, based on that, do you think there's anything major that could come out of the midterms then for developers as far as like any of the elections that are happening, any of the races that are happening, is there anything that could go one way or the other based on results of the uh midterm elections?
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:38.000
Well, the good news is in California is you're gonna they're gonna have a pro development, pro-housing governor, regardless.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:49.200
You know, I think uh my friends at California UMB put the headline up back in May that regardless of the electoral outcome, and this is before the primary had even settled anything, we're gonna have a pro-housing governor.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:55.519
So I think you get pockets like that in this in in states where you see you know much more of a discussion taking place.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:07.759
Um we've had, I mentioned Michigan, you know, they the headline is they have different housing policies, but to someone who sits in rooms with Republicans and Democrats a lot and hear them talk about housing, I get very similar.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:15.119
Now, the nuances of their plan may be different, but the top line of you know breaking down barriers, streamlining permitting, cutting red tape.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.799
It's all sounds like you know similar items to me.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:26.319
I think the differences are gonna break down on maybe some of these, you know, secondary and tertiary issues uh related to housing.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.160
And and you know, I think we'll see.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:45.039
I think the depends on what the voters are gonna do in in those states, but regardless of the outcome, you know, our challenges in in housing and development in general will continue to persist and until state lawmakers, you know, uh continue to break down those barriers.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.720
Are there certain policies related to housing that you're watching most closely?
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:58.319
Yeah, uh I think number one, you know, the continued proliferation of land use reform, you know, zoning reform and and how that works.
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:21.599
But kind of those next run issues in California and New York, but then also now federally with the 21st Road to Housing Act, we have seen much more attention get played to the role of environmental reviews and how once land use reforms happen, those individuals who oppose housing are looking for a new lever to pull to stop projects.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.119
And more often than not, they're relying on environmental reviews.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:33.519
I think interesting stat out of California is most of these groups filing these lawsuits didn't exist until they were ready to file the lawsuit.
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.599
So these groups are formed just to file lawsuits to stop uh needed housing.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.279
So that is one where you know we're really seeing that pick up.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:54.160
I know in in both Minnesota and Washington, there's been increased conversations about how far and how fast is too fast and too far when it comes to the energy code discussion.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:27:04.000
Uh, mentioned the Colorado River uh water cuts out in Arizona, but there's been an increased conversation around uh just general building code reforms.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:09.039
There's been increased conversations around, you know, how can we incent development?
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:15.359
Is there a way that we can utilize new creative methods for funding infrastructure?
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:21.119
Arizona just did a bill that creates what some folks call community improvement districts.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:27.839
I think Texas, they love to call them municipal utility districts or MUDs, kind of taking that concept to Arizona.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:32.160
So we are seeing, you know, other items, you know, pop up.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.240
And I think, you know, condo defect reform, California didn't get that one done.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.720
I know we're hearing about that more and more in Minnesota.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.279
So I think that's one to be watching as well uh in the coming years.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.920
So at each of the levels, you talked about this a little bit earlier.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.440
So we have the, we have the local, we have the local cities, I guess, and we have the state, and then we have the federal.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:28:08.480
For each of those different levels, what are what's something that each of those levels could do, you know, maybe in this next cycle, the next couple of years, that could be done at each of those levels to improve or help bring more housing to these different communities?
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:42.079
Yeah, I think federal level, uh, the best thing uh that the federal government could do is to really keep pressing on with uh what these incentives are going to look like under the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, but also let's really get serious about expanding the federal regulatory discussion outside of incentives and what can what guidance or what specific actions maybe on stormwater, environmental re continued environmental review reform, can can the state or can the sorry, can the federal government take to dive into housing?
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:53.359
I think on the local government side, the biggest things that local governments could do is to stop uh fighting uh reforms after they happen.
00:28:53.839 --> 00:29:15.359
You know, it's one thing to to fight about the state level reforms when they happen, but we're seeing continued and ongoing issues in states where reforms have happened, where instead of uh embracing the new state laws that are passed, as local governments are having uh to be you know, drug into the courts to comply.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.839
I think California has sued five cities for lack of compliance with uh the state's housing law.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.119
I know Massachusetts, they've they've threatened lawsuits as well.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:35.759
And Texas, after their reforms, uh particularly on the multifamily side, we're seeing communities that will create new zoning standards to block housing.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:54.079
So you you have to build a super tall apartment that probably is, you know, gonna be you're no longer to do timber construction, it's not gonna pencil out, so you don't do the project, requiring pools or other luxury amenities where you don't actually have the land available on site to then bring that project to completion.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:59.759
So I think local governments could really see that reforms are long overdue.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:03.839
They might not like them, but they have to, you know, at least comply with the law.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.640
Uh, and then at the state level, I would say continue to break down barriers.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.319
It's not just land use and zoning.
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:13.279
Again, that is the number one barrier at the moment.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.759
But there's other ones that need to be dealt with.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:21.599
California's taking the environmental review discussion to its voters this fall.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.000
New York's been working on that uh type of reform for quite some time.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.480
Building and energy code reforms.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.480
There's you know, issues with, you know, maybe how you've too many jurisdictions within the government having access to any one policy.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:42.960
You know, in in Wisconsin, next door to where I am right now, there's really one desk you need to go to to get a stormwater permit.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:52.880
In Minnesota, you've got to get the watershed districts, you've got to get all the different regulatory or environmental agencies on board, and you know, you've got to get the Army Corps of Engineers.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:58.880
And by the time you get all these groups happy, none of them are happy because all their changes cancel each other out.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:11.039
So I think continued streamlining of any review, permit, policy, make sure it's just good government and you only have to go to one entity for one regulation.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.319
Well, before we shift into the last segment, which is the lightning round, where I have five questions for you that are going to be on similar topics, just maybe some quick hitters.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:24.960
Is there anything else that you think developers need to understand about the upcoming midterms or just anything related to housing policy?
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:32.640
I would say on the elections, you know, the development community should be following closely uh what the candidates are talking about.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:34.480
Try to engage with the candidates.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:45.359
If you are in a state where a governor's on the ballot this year, it's a great idea to contact all the candidates and explain to them, you know, what your challenges are and why why reforms need to happen.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.960
And I would say the same thing on the on the state legislative side.
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:54.799
Talk to your folks, see what they're you know, have the development community engage with conversations and try to explain.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.240
It doesn't need to be a you know an over-the-top political cell.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:09.599
Just bring them to a job site, walk them through the challenges that that you face on any type of project so they can see kind of the different barriers, barriers that are um up there.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:18.240
And I think, you know, going forward, you know, on a policy standpoint, don't miss the boat when these reforms are uh up there.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:29.519
I know, you know, it might seem that maybe just one or two issues are are on the menu in your state or your city for reform, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be engaging in the conversation.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:36.319
If land use reform is on the docket in your state next next year, lend your voice.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:47.680
If you have public hearings where they're debating, you know, how to reform some of the city policies in the wake of the 21st century Road to Housing Act, engage, lend your expertise.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:33:00.480
You know, this is an opportunity for you to really, in an unprecedented way that we haven't had in this industry in a century, to really guide the future of what land use looks like at the city, state, and federal level.
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.119
All right.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.839
Well, let's go ahead and shift into the last segment, which is a lightning round.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.559
So some of these will be a little bit of overlap of what we've covered.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.160
But uh, first one for you.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.680
What do people misunderstand the most about housing policy?
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:12.720
Supply.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.920
It's supply over everything else.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.920
We don't have enough housing in this country and many, and particularly in our in-demand communities, that we have to build more.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.839
And just because you see some housing being built doesn't mean you're seeing enough of it.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.480
I mean, we frankly haven't built enough housing in this country uh since the Great Recession.
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:33.920
All right, second one.
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.359
What's the biggest thing stopping us from building more housing?
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:38.880
Fear of change.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.240
Is that fear from the politicians or fear from the citizens, the voters?
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:56.160
I would say fear, definitely fear from the citizens, but it's also fear of politicians over what change looks like when we what does that change my electorate?
00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:02.720
Yeah, it's kind of if if my community is not growing, it's a baked-in electorate, and I don't have to worry about things changing.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:04.000
All right, third one.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.359
What housing issue needs the most attention?
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:20.079
Land use and zoning, but after that, I would definitely say there's a much needed and overdue conversation about energy efficiency versus housing access and affordability.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:21.360
All right, fourth one.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.159
What should every voter understand about housing?
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:38.559
You have a voice, and this election is a great opportunity to for you to tell your elected officials, whether it's uh federal officials, state officials, or if you got local government races on the ballot, you have a voice and you should let your voice be heard.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:39.920
All right, last one.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:48.800
With your background being in uh politics, you know, for a while, what do you think every developer should understand about how politics actually works?
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:50.559
Ooh, that's a tough one.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:58.400
Um, I would say there's two things when it comes to politics and policy, there's there's two realities.
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:08.800
There's the theatrics you see on TV and you know, the the jabs, the one-liners that really make for good television and good social media clips.
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:14.159
But behind the scenes, these people really are trying to work together.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:30.480
And this is we have an unprecedented opportunity to take the these issues and really kind of get politics in our country back to how it used to be, where we work across party lines for the betterment of our city, state, and country.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:31.039
All right.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:32.480
Well, that brings us to a close here.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:38.000
Nick, what's the best way for people listening in to connect with you and to learn more about uh your companies?
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:46.239
Yeah, I would say to connect with Housing Affordability Institute, you can find us at housingaffordabilityinstitute.org, all one word.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:52.480
And Housing First Minnesota is Housing First Minnesota, sorry, housingfirstmn.org.
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:57.679
And then I am on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Blue Sky at NS Erickson.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:35:58.880
All right, perfect.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:03.119
So if you guys look down in the description for this episode, you'll see a link there to the show notes page.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.639
And on the show notes page, you will see all of those links there.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.920
Nick, thanks again for hopping on here and talking through uh some of these important conversations that are going on right now around the country.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.239
And we obviously have uh some big midterms coming up, so we'll be keeping an eye on that.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:21.119
And uh and yeah, thanks again for hopping on here.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:22.480
Thanks for having me.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:23.039
Absolutely.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:24.880
All right, guys, that's all for this episode.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.000
If you're not already subscribed, please click that button.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.760
We'd love to have you back for the next one.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.880
Otherwise, we will talk to you all next week.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.599
In Wisconsin, next door to where I am right now, there's really one desk you need to go to to get a stormwater permit.
00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:13.199
In Minnesota, you've got to get the watershed districts, you've got to get environmental agencies on board, and you know, you've got to get the Army Corps of Engineers.
00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:19.600
And by the time you get all these groups happy, none of them are happy because all their changes cancel each other out.
00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.439
Hey, what's going on, everybody?
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:37.439
Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:39.039
I am your host, Ryan Glick.
00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:41.840
I'm excited today to be joined by Nick Erickson.
00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:49.280
Nick is the executive director at the Housing Affordability Institute and Senior Director of Housing Policy at Housing First Minnesota.
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:50.560
Nick, thanks for joining me.
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:51.679
Thanks for having me on.
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:52.640
Happy to be here.
00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.159
Well, we are from when this is going to be released.
00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:59.439
We're going to be, I think, just a couple weeks away or so from the midterm.
00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:13.200
So there's a lot of talk, it feels like, around housing policy and what different politicians are talking about, or what are some things that the, you know, the advocates out there for housing are looking for politicians to be talking about.
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.400
So I know we've got some good stuff we're going to get into here today.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:22.159
But before we do that, I want to start out this episode like I do every other episode and digging into some of your background.
00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:29.120
And I think uh where I'd like to start there is how did you get into kind of this political landscape?
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:30.560
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:35.680
Uh so I've been working in public affairs for uh really the the last two decades.
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:45.359
And as I was looking about 10 years ago to transition to something new, I was really, you know, taken by the what was then kind of the nascent housing reform movement.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:54.239
Um, really trying to look at something that is a mission-driven job, something I can really devote my time and attention to in a way that really betters my community.
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.239
And uh this opportunity to housing first Minnesota opened up.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:10.639
They were expanding their public affairs team and and jumped into it at that point in time and have spent the last year or last decade now, you know, fighting for increased access to home ownership.
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.719
First in Minnesota, now with Housing Affordability Institute, really across the country.
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:23.039
So do you think that your experience that you had early on in your career on the political side of things has helped you now that you're into the housing side?
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:24.080
Oh, 100%.
00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.000
Yeah, I was a political strategist uh early in my career.
00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:39.520
Uh, and then from there I transitioned to healthcare and working for uh United Health Group, the nation's largest healthcare company, following the implementation of healthcare reform.
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:44.400
And I and I see, you know, it's the lot of parallels between my job there and what I do now.
00:02:44.560 --> 00:03:01.280
I think first it's how do you explain complex policy in a way that is simplified so that you know the average person in my time United Health Group, it was the employees of the company uh and the executive, how do you understand, you know, kind of the you know, the moving pieces there?
00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:22.240
But then, you know, also, you know, how do you take complex change that's going on uh in the policy space and kind of navigate those challenges and coming to housing, really be able to rely on those political and and you know corporate skills and experiences that I had as we're looking at how to increase homeownership opportunities here in Minnesota?
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:32.560
So before we get into, I've got several things I want to dig into today, but before we get into those, I do want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about the Housing Affordability Institute.
00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.599
Um, what does the organization do and kind of what does your day-to-day look like uh within the organization?
00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:43.199
Yeah, uh so Housing Affordability Institute was founded in 2018 by Housing First Minnesota.
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:48.639
It's uh probably best described as a trade association for the housing industry here in Minnesota.
00:03:48.800 --> 00:04:00.400
And we founded the institute because we didn't have the data, the analysis, and kind of the policy needs that we as an organization needed at the point in time.
00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.800
Uh so we decided to go out and, you know, since it wasn't available, let's build it.
00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:07.439
We're very entrepreneurial here at Housing First.
00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:19.040
And so we built out a policy development program around uh Housing Affordability Institute and really started to explain why homes cost more in Minnesota than they do anywhere in the upper Midwest.
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.319
In fact, it's more expensive to build a new home in Minneapolis, St.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:23.920
Paul than it is in the Chicago region.
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.920
And so we're trying to highlight why that is.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:47.439
And as the housing discussion has grown around the country, what we found is that there's really not an industry-centric voice, kind of the the view of the home builders, their trade partners, the land developers, that's explaining why we need, you know, to break down barriers to housing and why that state intervention or local intervention and even federal action is necessary.
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:57.279
So uh we built out that organization and really part of my job now the last uh eight, nine years, has to been to grow uh the institute.
00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:13.759
We've really taken it from something that was focused initially here in Minnesota and have taken that discussion broadly across the country, working with different uh reform advocates across the United States to really see how do we move the needle on housing access and affordability in America?
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:22.639
So as we head into the midterms, I feel like I've been hearing a lot more about housing as a topic from various politicians.
00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:28.959
And I feel like it's from politicians on both sides sides of the aisle that they're talking about housing a little bit more than they used to in the past.
00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:36.240
Do you see housing as a big topic for politicians heading into the midterms?
00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.600
Is that what you're seeing as well, or is it not as big of a topic as it should be?
00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:44.000
I think it is a major topic that folks are hearing about.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.399
I but I also think it that that does need to grow.
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.319
I don't think it's quite enough.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:50.240
But then I, you know, I'm biased.
00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:51.680
Housing is my life.
00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.000
But really, this does go back to 2024.
00:05:54.160 --> 00:06:11.839
We first saw in the mid, or sorry, in the in the presidential election last year, polling starting to indicate that that housing, if you strip away the more partisan issues that that campaigns are pushing, once you strip those away, housing was a top issue for voters uh in the 2024 election.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:28.000
And you know, someone who spent at that point in time eight years working to get you know housing to be a top political issue, it was surprising and and you know, frankly, overdue to see uh the housing shortage in America really elevate to a need, especially in the presidential year.
00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:42.560
And as amazing as that was, even this year, to see that go above and beyond, to see, you know, poll after poll, um, talk to candidates, uh elected officials across the country, talk to political organizations that are all saying the same thing.
00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:46.480
Housing is a top issue with voters this year.
00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.279
And you know, we saw it recently with the CNBC poll.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.000
It's the number one issue for voters under 34.
00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:56.240
And it's the number two issue when you include voters under the age of 50.
00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:01.759
So you think about that younger cohort, 18 to 34, 18 to 35.
00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:11.680
These are individuals who've known nothing of but the housing shortage and the housing crisis in America as they're coming into being an owner, prospective owner, a renter.
00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:22.879
You know, the older group had seen those momentous rise in in rents and the existing home prices just keep climbing, climbing, and climbing because of the housing shortage.
00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:32.240
So the older group who may have gotten into home ownership early or got into rental early in their 20s, for them, they've seen that affordability erode.
00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:41.519
The younger cohort has had even a more grim uh view of the housing market, one where they're just they're they're shut out of ownership.
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:46.720
They're they're finding it increasingly more shut out of uh rental opportunities.
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:54.160
And so it really makes sense when you look at the underlying, you know, issues in housing is to see why it's become a pain point.
00:07:54.319 --> 00:08:09.360
And and with numbers, you know, we're seeing in polls of of support for housing reform, it's no surprise that we see this bipartisan support for action because the voters of all stripes are demanding action, you know, state and federal level.
00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:18.639
So my unofficial polling that I do online with the uh with the end consumer is that we will put clips of the show on different social media platforms.
00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.480
Different platforms are more outspoken than others.
00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:31.279
And sometimes you get, you know, the loudest people that people are most upset on on one side or the other are going to be the ones who comment and the others don't necessarily comment on things.
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:42.879
But we have definitely seen a lot of people out there, the consumers specifically, who are who want to buy homes, that they this is an issue that they get very they're very passionate about.
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:47.440
I mean, they there's a lot of yelling happening in the comments on some posts and everything.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:59.600
And I know you have to be careful on social media because you never know if it's even real people that are doing the yelling in the comments, but you know, it does seem to be pretty consistent with certain topics that we put out there that people want to buy homes.
00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:04.879
They they feel like they can't buy buy a home right now, and they're being told that they can't buy a home.
00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:16.960
And then at the same time, it does feel like a lot of the politicians somewhat gaslight, you know, everybody and say, like, you know, this is a this is a great economy, everything's great, and you should be able to buy a house right now.
00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:22.159
And I wonder what what are the things that the candidates that you're seeing candidates actually talk about?
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:34.159
I know they're not talking about maybe enough, but are there certain topics or certain reforms that they're actually bringing up and considering, you know, putting in place when they, you know, after the midterms?
00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.399
Yeah, you know, it's it's a great question.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:38.960
So you see candidates, they're always talking about issues.
00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:50.639
I think obviously that the safest way to talk about it is a general way of we're gonna take action on housing, especially when you're seeing poll numbers in the, you know, 80, 90% for some of these policy proposals.
00:09:51.039 --> 00:10:01.200
But what we're we're seeing out there, and I've checked in with with friends across the country, is they're we're seeing candidates talk about it in a way that is reflective of their political beliefs.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:12.000
And so oftentimes you're gonna hear Republican candidates talking about breaking down barriers, removing red tape, regulatory reform.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:19.120
And then on the flip side, on the on the left, you hear some Democrat candidates talking about making it easier to build homes.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:25.120
We have to make it easier to build apartments, we have to do something about the permitting timelines.
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:28.399
In reality, we're talking about the same, the same thing.
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:39.360
And I think it's funny because I was just reading a story about the the Michigan governor's race last week, and it was a very similar story of one Republican says X, Democrats says Y, they disagree on housing.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.879
Well, they disagree on the messaging, I think.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:11:04.080
And you know, we're we're seeing that here in Minnesota uh in our governor's race as well, where we've had uh you know, Senator Amy Klobuchar, Democrat candidate for governor, talk about some very more specific ways to address the housing shortage in Minnesota, expressing support for uh the proposed zoning reform bill that's been floating around the Capitol for several years.
00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:15.519
At the same time, we've seen Republican Speaker of the House, the Republican candidate, Lisa Damouth, express concerns over the how long it takes to build homes, the cost disparities between Minnesota and other markets.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:25.440
And so what we do see is candidates talk about it in a way that I think resonates with them, resonates with their constituencies, but is still about action.
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.320
The Mountain West is ground zero for this discussion.
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:37.759
And you have Governor Gianforte in Montana, Governor Polis in in Colorado who have been working hard in their states pressing forward for reforms.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:42.639
And we saw that then both governors were supportive of relatively the same policies.
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.840
They just talked about it in a way that really resonated more with their constituency.
00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:59.440
Do you think that, and you mentioned the a lot of times the Republicans and Democrats have they want to get to the same place, their messaging may be differently in some cases around when it comes to housing.
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:10.799
Do you think that that ultimately is going to lead to a stalemate and basically not, you know, get us to a point where nothing gets passed because the, you know, the Democrats want to do it this way, the Republicans want to do it this way.
00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:12.000
They can't come to an agreement.
00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.799
So things get stripped out of the bill, and then you end up with a bill that basically it doesn't really do anything.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:24.399
It has a fancy name and everything, but a lot of the meat of the bill gets stripped out and and then everybody celebrates like it did something big for for the people.
00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:29.279
We haven't seen that yet in a lot of these these bipartisan reforms across the country.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.679
And and, you know, well, we haven't had comprehensive reform passed yet in Minnesota.
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:42.080
I can tell you, sitting with a lot of uh lawmakers with yours, so we have the closest closely divided legislature in the nation right now in Minnesota.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:47.679
Our state Senate has 67 members and it's a 34-33 split.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.720
And our House of Representatives is an even 67-67.
00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:58.240
You can't get more divided than that, than the closely divided than the than those numbers.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:12.720
And we, you know, I'll talk with lawmakers who will be, you know, sharing jabs with each other on social media about non-housing issues, and you know, 10 minutes later head to a committee hearing and partner with one another.
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:28.480
And I think what we're seeing in the housing discussion across the country, and I've spoken with my friends in in Arizona, we're seeing it in in Texas, Florida, other states, they're coming together around housing because one, the barriers are so immense.
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:44.000
Two, I think the landed land development discussion, the zoning reform, you know, what we build where, that part of the discussion is so integral to moving forward on housing that you don't see the division that you do with other issues.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:51.440
This is not housing 20 years ago, where housing probably meant subsidies, frankly.
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:57.120
That's what housing policy meant 20 years ago at the state and federal levels.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:03.679
And it's whether it's LITEC or just straight donations to organizations to build housing.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.679
So you have different approaches, again, two sides of the same coin.
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:15.519
But with policy reforms, we do see at least on the major barriers, both parties uniting around moving forward.
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:28.720
And and yes, they'll they'll finesse the messaging in their in their terms, but at the end of the day, it's about allowing you know more housing options and more places and and breaking down the local government barriers to building more homes.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.840
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All right, let's get back to the show.
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:33.919
I want to dig in a little bit to the different levels of government because we obviously have federal races, we have state races, we have local, you know, races that happen or local elected officials.
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:39.840
And, you know, when we talk about housing, I hear a lot of people talk about things that should be done at different levels.
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:44.240
And I'm curious from your perspective, you know, what can actually be done at each level?
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:49.759
Like what's what should be the goal at the federal level versus the state versus local?
00:15:50.080 --> 00:16:02.000
You know, from levels of government, I always try to explain housing as our regulatory pyramid is inverted from pretty much every other major part of the of the economy.
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:09.679
If you look at most industries, the greatest impact is the federal government.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:18.639
In the middle, you'll have states, and really that last mile of regulatory barriers or regulatory involvement is local government.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.480
But with housing and any and all land development, you have to flip that on its head.
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:34.240
Our number one barrier for anyone involved in the land development space, housing construction, whether it's rental, ownership, multifamily mixed use, it is local government.
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:39.440
They're the primary permitting regulator for both land use permits and building permits.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:44.159
So by nature, they are going to have uh the greatest regulatory impact.
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:55.600
In the states, I say states are secondary because you have state environmental laws, you have state land use laws is what authorizes local governments to plan and zone.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:01.519
You'll have building codes that are either going to be local or state, depending on what part of the country you're talking about.
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:07.359
You're going to have environmental reviews and all the other labor taxes that go into uh housing.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:19.119
And then the federal government does have its federal environmental regulations and reviews, suggestions, financing, you know, fiscal policy, particularly on the lending side.
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.359
But we're just a different industry.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:32.799
And so as we're talking about the barriers to breakdown, it constantly coming back to uh the discussion about that tension between the role of the state versus the role of local government.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.960
But I think that the 21st Century Road to Housing Act is a prime example.
00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:46.960
It is a bill that's trying to break down barriers where they exist without being a fix everything in one package type bill, at least on the federal side.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:59.279
But the environmental review relief, you know, the model, your changes to the to the modular and uh mobile home construction language, but then in trying to incentivize state-local governments to do the right thing.
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:06.079
That is, I think, what we're seeing is, you know, kind of the federal government taking its first step into this discussion.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.319
But the battleground really does remain state capitals across the country.
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.039
And this is where a lot of the discussion is coming from.
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:20.000
Because we're not getting the critical mass at the local level that's needed to really break down barriers.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:28.319
And it's not just land use and zoning, that is definitely the largest and most critical barrier to break down, but there's others that that need it need to get discussed.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:36.880
And we're seeing states move into those discussions, cities moving into those discussions as we're, you know, seeing more and more states take action on land use and zoning.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:46.160
So something I find interesting on that topic is that the voters, one of the top issues, as you mentioned, for voters is housing.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:47.680
And they want housing.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:55.440
There's a lot of people in that Gen Z, you know, Gen Z demographic that they don't feel like they have housing available to them.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.319
And I'm talking about owning a home, not necessarily renting.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:06.799
And yet when, you know, they may vote for it at the federal level, but you're talking about how a lot of this happens at the local level.
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:14.799
You still see a lot of people complain about the projects that are being done to bring in some of that additional housing and additional, you know, options for them.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.599
And I wonder if that's just like a is that a messaging issue?
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:25.279
Is it is it literally not as big of a deal as maybe it's made to seem because those those people who oppose projects are just the loudest.
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.200
And so you hear them, but there's few of them.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:41.119
And but they do have the ability to kill projects if they can get to some of the local uh leaders who are deciding and voting on some of these things, if they're like, hey, I I want to get re-elected, and these people are screaming loud, you know, at me.
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.279
I'm I'm gonna go ahead and kill this project because I don't want to hear, you know, hear from these people.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:53.920
Do you think it's a messaging thing, or do you think it's maybe not as big of a deal, or not as many people are opposing these projects as it possibly seems?
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.079
I think it's it's a combination of the two.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:09.039
I do think the resistance that we see at the local level, yet the high polling we see on housing reform, it's kind of like Congress.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:16.079
Congress itself has a very low approval rating, yet everyone loves their member of Congress and we see high re-election rates.
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:26.799
I I think it's a little bit of that going on, but I think more specifically at the local level, it truly is the minority of people coming to speak out uh against the project.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:35.599
Part of my job is you know with Housing First is to attend, you know, when needed, uh local government meetings, whether it's planning commission, city council.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:50.880
It might seem like there's a lot of folks in these meetings speaking against the project, but more often than not, it is you know, five, ten people in a community of 20,000, 50,000, 70,000.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.720
Well, you can probably find five people anywhere upset about something.
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:13.200
And I do think part of it needs to be that there has to be a recognition that at least from the people who are opposing these projects, oftentimes that your property rights end at your property line because that's where the next person's property rights begin.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:28.400
And I have a hard time believing that if the shoe were on the other foot, that the same people opposing all these projects wouldn't also be annoyed if their neighbors were telling them what they could do with their land.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.559
Where where are you seeing both parties actually agree?
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:38.319
Is it is it on most things when it comes to housing, or are there only certain things that both parties are agreeing on?
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:45.920
On the agreement for kind of the bipartisanship and housing reform, I'd say definitely the federal level uh is a great example.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.359
Now, there's some of the funding details due need to be worked out yet.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:58.000
On the land use and zoning front, again, it is very much a discussion about you know whether or not we're going to take action on this or not.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:06.960
Do you is Local control, you know, kind of the prime directive for state government, or is it to address the needs of the people?
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.319
That really is where we're seeing, you know, that discussion going.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.279
And by and large, that is a bipartisan conversation.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:19.440
I'd say that the partisanship on land use is generational, probably not as much partisan.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:41.200
If you, if you've owned your home for a while, maybe it's paid off, maybe you know, you're nearing that point, you haven't experienced the housing shortage, you probably don't feel it and experience it in the same way that somebody who is, you know, 25 years old, fresh out of college, can't can barely afford to rent, not looking to ever own a home is going to think about it.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:48.160
But there are issues out there where we are seeing, you know, definitely much more alignment over party lines.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:58.240
I think we're seeing a discussion on energy dis energy codes in both Minnesota and Washington that is taking a very partisan view.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.160
We're seeing this in Colorado, right?
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.799
How we're going to do it going forward does get partisan.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.559
And you know, sometimes on just the general role of government, uh, you know, do we want inclusionary zoning or not?
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.240
Do we want rent control or not?
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.759
Those are generally going to be more partisan-level discussions.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:37.119
But on the land use side, again, there is broad-based support from the voters.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.319
There's broad-based support politically across all parties.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:50.319
You know, I always joke that you have Governor Newsom in California and the Texas governor sign this pretty much the same housing policy into law.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:24:00.559
You had Governor Gene Forte in Montana, one of the most conservative governors uh in the country, sign um the same legislation or similar legislation as Governor Polis did in Colorado.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:13.599
And these are abutting states with, you know, red state, blue state type type political systems, yet they're all supporting the same uh notion that uh the state has to pick up the mantle and run with housing if local government won't.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:30.319
Do you think, you know, based on that, do you think there's anything major that could come out of the midterms then for developers as far as like any of the elections that are happening, any of the races that are happening, is there anything that could go one way or the other based on results of the uh midterm elections?
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:38.000
Well, the good news is in California is you're gonna they're gonna have a pro development, pro-housing governor, regardless.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:49.200
You know, I think uh my friends at California UMB put the headline up back in May that regardless of the electoral outcome, and this is before the primary had even settled anything, we're gonna have a pro-housing governor.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:55.519
So I think you get pockets like that in this in in states where you see you know much more of a discussion taking place.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:07.759
Um we've had, I mentioned Michigan, you know, they the headline is they have different housing policies, but to someone who sits in rooms with Republicans and Democrats a lot and hear them talk about housing, I get very similar.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:15.119
Now, the nuances of their plan may be different, but the top line of you know breaking down barriers, streamlining permitting, cutting red tape.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.799
It's all sounds like you know similar items to me.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:26.319
I think the differences are gonna break down on maybe some of these, you know, secondary and tertiary issues uh related to housing.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.160
And and you know, I think we'll see.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:45.039
I think the depends on what the voters are gonna do in in those states, but regardless of the outcome, you know, our challenges in in housing and development in general will continue to persist and until state lawmakers, you know, uh continue to break down those barriers.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.720
Are there certain policies related to housing that you're watching most closely?
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:58.319
Yeah, uh I think number one, you know, the continued proliferation of land use reform, you know, zoning reform and and how that works.
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:21.599
But kind of those next run issues in California and New York, but then also now federally with the 21st Road to Housing Act, we have seen much more attention get played to the role of environmental reviews and how once land use reforms happen, those individuals who oppose housing are looking for a new lever to pull to stop projects.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.119
And more often than not, they're relying on environmental reviews.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:33.519
I think interesting stat out of California is most of these groups filing these lawsuits didn't exist until they were ready to file the lawsuit.
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.599
So these groups are formed just to file lawsuits to stop uh needed housing.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.279
So that is one where you know we're really seeing that pick up.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:54.160
I know in in both Minnesota and Washington, there's been increased conversations about how far and how fast is too fast and too far when it comes to the energy code discussion.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:27:04.000
Uh, mentioned the Colorado River uh water cuts out in Arizona, but there's been an increased conversation around uh just general building code reforms.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:09.039
There's been increased conversations around, you know, how can we incent development?
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:15.359
Is there a way that we can utilize new creative methods for funding infrastructure?
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:21.119
Arizona just did a bill that creates what some folks call community improvement districts.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:27.839
I think Texas, they love to call them municipal utility districts or MUDs, kind of taking that concept to Arizona.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:32.160
So we are seeing, you know, other items, you know, pop up.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.240
And I think, you know, condo defect reform, California didn't get that one done.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.720
I know we're hearing about that more and more in Minnesota.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.279
So I think that's one to be watching as well uh in the coming years.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.920
So at each of the levels, you talked about this a little bit earlier.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.440
So we have the, we have the local, we have the local cities, I guess, and we have the state, and then we have the federal.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:28:08.480
For each of those different levels, what are what's something that each of those levels could do, you know, maybe in this next cycle, the next couple of years, that could be done at each of those levels to improve or help bring more housing to these different communities?
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:42.079
Yeah, I think federal level, uh, the best thing uh that the federal government could do is to really keep pressing on with uh what these incentives are going to look like under the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, but also let's really get serious about expanding the federal regulatory discussion outside of incentives and what can what guidance or what specific actions maybe on stormwater, environmental re continued environmental review reform, can can the state or can the sorry, can the federal government take to dive into housing?
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:53.359
I think on the local government side, the biggest things that local governments could do is to stop uh fighting uh reforms after they happen.
00:28:53.839 --> 00:29:15.359
You know, it's one thing to to fight about the state level reforms when they happen, but we're seeing continued and ongoing issues in states where reforms have happened, where instead of uh embracing the new state laws that are passed, as local governments are having uh to be you know, drug into the courts to comply.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.839
I think California has sued five cities for lack of compliance with uh the state's housing law.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.119
I know Massachusetts, they've they've threatened lawsuits as well.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:35.759
And Texas, after their reforms, uh particularly on the multifamily side, we're seeing communities that will create new zoning standards to block housing.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:54.079
So you you have to build a super tall apartment that probably is, you know, gonna be you're no longer to do timber construction, it's not gonna pencil out, so you don't do the project, requiring pools or other luxury amenities where you don't actually have the land available on site to then bring that project to completion.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:59.759
So I think local governments could really see that reforms are long overdue.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:03.839
They might not like them, but they have to, you know, at least comply with the law.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.640
Uh, and then at the state level, I would say continue to break down barriers.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.319
It's not just land use and zoning.
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:13.279
Again, that is the number one barrier at the moment.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.759
But there's other ones that need to be dealt with.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:21.599
California's taking the environmental review discussion to its voters this fall.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.000
New York's been working on that uh type of reform for quite some time.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.480
Building and energy code reforms.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.480
There's you know, issues with, you know, maybe how you've too many jurisdictions within the government having access to any one policy.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:42.960
You know, in in Wisconsin, next door to where I am right now, there's really one desk you need to go to to get a stormwater permit.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:52.880
In Minnesota, you've got to get the watershed districts, you've got to get all the different regulatory or environmental agencies on board, and you know, you've got to get the Army Corps of Engineers.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:58.880
And by the time you get all these groups happy, none of them are happy because all their changes cancel each other out.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:11.039
So I think continued streamlining of any review, permit, policy, make sure it's just good government and you only have to go to one entity for one regulation.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.319
Well, before we shift into the last segment, which is the lightning round, where I have five questions for you that are going to be on similar topics, just maybe some quick hitters.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:24.960
Is there anything else that you think developers need to understand about the upcoming midterms or just anything related to housing policy?
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:32.640
I would say on the elections, you know, the development community should be following closely uh what the candidates are talking about.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:34.480
Try to engage with the candidates.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:45.359
If you are in a state where a governor's on the ballot this year, it's a great idea to contact all the candidates and explain to them, you know, what your challenges are and why why reforms need to happen.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.960
And I would say the same thing on the on the state legislative side.
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:54.799
Talk to your folks, see what they're you know, have the development community engage with conversations and try to explain.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.240
It doesn't need to be a you know an over-the-top political cell.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:09.599
Just bring them to a job site, walk them through the challenges that that you face on any type of project so they can see kind of the different barriers, barriers that are um up there.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:18.240
And I think, you know, going forward, you know, on a policy standpoint, don't miss the boat when these reforms are uh up there.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:29.519
I know, you know, it might seem that maybe just one or two issues are are on the menu in your state or your city for reform, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be engaging in the conversation.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:36.319
If land use reform is on the docket in your state next next year, lend your voice.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:47.680
If you have public hearings where they're debating, you know, how to reform some of the city policies in the wake of the 21st century Road to Housing Act, engage, lend your expertise.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:33:00.480
You know, this is an opportunity for you to really, in an unprecedented way that we haven't had in this industry in a century, to really guide the future of what land use looks like at the city, state, and federal level.
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.119
All right.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.839
Well, let's go ahead and shift into the last segment, which is a lightning round.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.559
So some of these will be a little bit of overlap of what we've covered.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.160
But uh, first one for you.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.680
What do people misunderstand the most about housing policy?
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:12.720
Supply.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.920
It's supply over everything else.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.920
We don't have enough housing in this country and many, and particularly in our in-demand communities, that we have to build more.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.839
And just because you see some housing being built doesn't mean you're seeing enough of it.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.480
I mean, we frankly haven't built enough housing in this country uh since the Great Recession.
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:33.920
All right, second one.
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.359
What's the biggest thing stopping us from building more housing?
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:38.880
Fear of change.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.240
Is that fear from the politicians or fear from the citizens, the voters?
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:56.160
I would say fear, definitely fear from the citizens, but it's also fear of politicians over what change looks like when we what does that change my electorate?
00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:02.720
Yeah, it's kind of if if my community is not growing, it's a baked-in electorate, and I don't have to worry about things changing.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:04.000
All right, third one.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.359
What housing issue needs the most attention?
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:20.079
Land use and zoning, but after that, I would definitely say there's a much needed and overdue conversation about energy efficiency versus housing access and affordability.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:21.360
All right, fourth one.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.159
What should every voter understand about housing?
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:38.559
You have a voice, and this election is a great opportunity to for you to tell your elected officials, whether it's uh federal officials, state officials, or if you got local government races on the ballot, you have a voice and you should let your voice be heard.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:39.920
All right, last one.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:48.800
With your background being in uh politics, you know, for a while, what do you think every developer should understand about how politics actually works?
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:50.559
Ooh, that's a tough one.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:58.400
Um, I would say there's two things when it comes to politics and policy, there's there's two realities.
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:08.800
There's the theatrics you see on TV and you know, the the jabs, the one-liners that really make for good television and good social media clips.
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:14.159
But behind the scenes, these people really are trying to work together.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:30.480
And this is we have an unprecedented opportunity to take the these issues and really kind of get politics in our country back to how it used to be, where we work across party lines for the betterment of our city, state, and country.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:31.039
All right.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:32.480
Well, that brings us to a close here.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:38.000
Nick, what's the best way for people listening in to connect with you and to learn more about uh your companies?
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:46.239
Yeah, I would say to connect with Housing Affordability Institute, you can find us at housingaffordabilityinstitute.org, all one word.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:52.480
And Housing First Minnesota is Housing First Minnesota, sorry, housingfirstmn.org.
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:57.679
And then I am on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Blue Sky at NS Erickson.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:35:58.880
All right, perfect.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:03.119
So if you guys look down in the description for this episode, you'll see a link there to the show notes page.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.639
And on the show notes page, you will see all of those links there.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.920
Nick, thanks again for hopping on here and talking through uh some of these important conversations that are going on right now around the country.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.239
And we obviously have uh some big midterms coming up, so we'll be keeping an eye on that.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:21.119
And uh and yeah, thanks again for hopping on here.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:22.480
Thanks for having me.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:23.039
Absolutely.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:24.880
All right, guys, that's all for this episode.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.000
If you're not already subscribed, please click that button.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.760
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00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.880
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