Unveiling Fraud: Investigations and Intelligence in India’s Corporate Landscape

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Surveillance may not be the endgame finding evidence.

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For example, if I notice somebody has gone to a farmhouse

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and this guy is not returning government-owned or

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bank-owned or somebody-owned hundreds of crores of rupees,

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but that farmhouse is in the name of his driver, right? So

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surveillance may give me a hint. What are the practical

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boundaries to what you can do in surveillance?

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So the practical boundaries are twofold, as Sagarika already pointed

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out. The Constitution lays out clear rules. Obviously, there is

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right to privacy, right to not get into somebody's

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sort of data, and a lot of other details. So as long as it

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is more like a public view, your surveillance is very limited to

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that itself. How do you form that view when somebody is lying to

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you, Sagarika? You make them believe that you believe

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in them completely. And make them speak, talk, talk,

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talk, because nothing is worse than getting caught in your own web

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of lies.

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Hello and welcome to the Intelligence Advantage podcast, where we talk

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to the movers and shapers in the investigation and intelligence

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space. My name is Gary Miller. I've been an investigative

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lawyer for nearly half a century, and I'm also the chairman of the

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IFG, a network of international investigative and

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asset recovery lawyers. Okay, welcome to

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the Intelligence Advantage podcast, where I,

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Gary Miller, on behalf of the IFG, get

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an amazing opportunity to talk to the great and the good in the

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investigation and intelligence space. Today,

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I am truly blessed because I have, for the first

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time in the intelligence podcast sessions, an

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opportunity to speak to two people together, both Both of them

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are from the same business. They are, um, Sagarika

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Chakraborty and Gary Singh from Iris

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Consulting. And Iris Consulting are one of the

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leading investigation and intelligence gathering outfits in India

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and also in other places, which we'll hear a little bit more about

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as we progress in the podcast. So welcome,

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Sagarika and Gary. It is lovely to have you. Thank you for

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taking time out. Thank you, Garry. Really an honor and

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pleasure to be present in this podcast. Thanks. Excellent. And this

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really is an amazing opportunity for all of

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us. We've only met in the last 3, 4 months when I

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came to Mumbai. And

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the more I learn about what is happening in the

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investigation space in India and what you

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are doing in it, the more excited and impressed I

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am. So Sagarika, you and I have spoken a little

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bit about it, but I'm going to ask you, you are multi-talented.

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You're a lawyer, you've got an MBA. What

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on earth attracted you to the investigation space?

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It's not a natural home for a

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young lady in any day and age, but you've been doing it

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for many years. So, Gary, as much as I would love to say

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that life happened, well, it didn't. It was a very conscious choice, and

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I'm extremely proud of the choice that I made. I

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grew up in a typical Indian family where the options were

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between being a doctor or being a lawyer or being a bureaucrat.

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And all my family members had A, B, and C, or, you know,

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neither of the above was not an option. But me being the rebellious

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kid that I was, I declared when I was 12 that I wanted to be

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a lawyer. Okay. A lawyer? Yeah, I did become one,

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and I did have to rebel against it and become one. And I

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thought that this is it. I'm living— I got into my dream school. I'm

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living my dream life till I became a lawyer. And after 3 years,

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you could just wake me up from my sleep and hand me an ISDA or

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a derivative document, and I could, you know, really read through it. And then

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I was like, no, this— I don't think this is what I was born to

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do. So that is when I started— I was working at a bank and I

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started looking into stuff that other people were doing. And

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I chanced upon a department called Fraud Intelligence Unit,

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okay, because I was working very closely with them. And I was like, okay, you

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guys do all the interesting stuff and then you pass on the findings to me

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just to give a legal opinion. Okay, so how can I do both? They

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said, oh well, there are just two options. You can either be a chartered

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accountant or be an MBA. Till then, maths wasn't

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really my, you know, best ally. So I said, ah, chartered accountancy

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is out of the window. MBA is something that I can really consider. And

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yes, I went to a B-school, a batch of 570 people,

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where I was convinced that I am there to become an investigator,

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which even the dean had not heard of. But luckily for me,

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I think 5 months into the course, I met Gary. Okay. And we started

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discussing the plans. So let me, let me

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pause you because it's an excellent story.

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So in a nutshell, you thought you wanted to be

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a lawyer, but once you'd been a lawyer, you decided that really wasn't

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exciting enough. That's right. Is that fair enough? And

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you were fortunate enough. Life is made up of

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Sometimes people say

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happenstance. I'm a great believer in

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destiny, and I think you and Gary were meant to meet

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each other. You were— you met at the right time in your career.

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So Gary, welcome.

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What is it? What was it about your career and where you

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were in your life that made

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the meeting with Sagorika special in the sense

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of, I know I wanna set up an investigation business with

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this lady. What was it? What was going through your head at that time?

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Well, sure. My, my career started very differently.

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I used to be a para commander in the Indian Army and

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was enjoying some of the

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quite interesting battlefields. Served in

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Siachen area, Kargil, and then Jammu Kashmir,

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bit of Northeast India. And once I completed my

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commissioned service within the Indian Army, then

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I got exposed to a bit of different stuff, but still it was not

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close to investigation in the beginning. I ended up being in

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Afghanistan working for United Nations doing disarmament. I was

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with Accenture. That's where— I'm just going to pause you, Gary.

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Lovely to hear all about that. I want you to fast forward

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and imagine the day or the week

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that you bump into Sagarika. Had you met her before?

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When was the first time you met Sagarika? That's, that's how, once I was in

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the corporate life, I was leading Asia Pacific efforts

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of an investigation and risk consulting company. Here I see an email

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popping into my mailbox from a B-school. Where

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we will not go and do any recruitment generally, but saying, okay, I want

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to be part of your team, and if I can be part of

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investigations there. So you were where? You were at Pinkerton in

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those times, in those days, is that right? You were at Pinkerton? Yes,

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correct. So that's where I forwarded to HR. I said, just

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check it out. I mean, whether she's generally fishing or she really wants to be

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an investigator. And I think some of the initial rounds did prove

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that it was something which she really wanted to do.

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And yes, we first met together when we were working at Pinkerton.

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So this was when? Give me a kind of time

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sequence. When was this? Which year? I first wrote to him in August

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of 2011. 2011. And

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how, what was the investigation

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industry? What did it look like in India at that stage? Clearly, obviously

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Pinkerton were there,

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Sagarika, were there other potential candidates?

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And if so, why did you choose Pinkerton? Investigations in India at

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that point of time was in an evolving phase wherein people were still trying to

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differentiate between an audit and an investigation. So

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with regard to specialized investigative agencies, there was only Pinkerton.

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The others were the Big 4s or the Big 6s who did have a forensic

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arm of their own, but they started off as auditors and they thought that it

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is a natural progression to have a robust team that also does forensics.

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But I always wanted to be the boots on the ground, okay? What really excited

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me was the fact that you go and you gather intelligence, and

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yes, you crack the case, not just by looking into some audit report.

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So that is why Pinkerton was my choice, and I think I just

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manifested it. So yeah. Okay. And Gary, what

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kind of work— Sadarika is

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setting the scene that in 2011,

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the investigative

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landscape in India was evolving. What kind

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of work were Pinkerton and you doing before you

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were approached by Sagarika? What kind of business

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had you been, had you been able to develop and how difficult was it to

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persuade corporates or whoever to retain

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an investigation agency? Well, truly, I,

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I do want to, uh, reach that stage, but maybe I do want to add,

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I'm quite historic. I started the industry in 2002 after

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my army career. So I was already looking at different faces within the

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industry which were coming up in India. Initially,

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the number of frauds and number of investigations were very less, but

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with continuous economic upbeat, and I will say especially

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during the end of 2000s, where there was a huge amount of

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sort of recession across the globe, I didn't notice huge amount

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of frauds and investigations happening that time. It was, I think, a mental

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tendency. That I need to secure myself. I should have enough

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funds even if my job goes away, if my business is not there, I need

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to secure myself and my families. So that's where a lot of siphoning, a lot

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of those trends were uptrend that time. And when

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Sakrika did message in 2011, I think we were still living

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in that era when investigations were far more growing.

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At the same time, India has a—

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there's no feeder mechanism to investigation, Kartik. That time there used

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to be no investigative courses, investigative schools

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coming up. So, so a lot of people had to learn the hard way being

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on ground. Here's somebody— So let me, let me ask you this. How did

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I understand in terms of investigative courses, and believe it or

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not, there are not, well, I shouldn't stick my neck out, but

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there's no clear career path in England to

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become, there's no certificate or anything that you can, uh,

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officially get as far as I'm aware, but When you were— you

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started— did you open up the office for

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Pinkertons or were they there already? No, so they were

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there already. They were there already. So they were already established. And

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what kind of work do you— were they doing corporate fraud

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investigations? Were they doing the sort of

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less exotic, I don't know,

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employee theft? What kind of work were they doing? It

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was quite a mixed bag. It was obviously have white-collar crime angle,

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typical background check of the companies, due diligences of

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vendor profiles. So you were doing preventative as well as reactive?

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Yeah. And what for you, when you were at

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Pinkerton, what was the tipping point? Uh, you may have mentioned it

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already, so forgive me, that made you think Sadarika wants

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to become, because you did join Pinkerton, didn't you? Um,

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Sadarika, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. And then at some stage,

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the two of you decided that why should you do this

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for somebody else? Why don't you do it for yourselves? Is that right?

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It didn't happen typically that way. Yeah. I think what

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triggered it actually is, is also a unique story

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when actually I was, I was not keeping well

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and I work quite a bit. I mean, my family sees me working

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sometimes 46 hours in a day. So they were like, after my life, that no,

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you're not going to do this job anymore. So that's where I

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said, okay, Pinkertons, bye-bye. And while I

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was just thinking that what exactly should be done, I think that's

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where a few of the challenges which I could see that any large

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corporate setup, when it ends up being a larger body, you

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are governed by too many of your policies, too many of your

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different parameters. This is what you can do. This is what you

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cannot do. So I was thinking about more element of

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freedom that I will do whatever is best for the client and what I

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like. And also the approach client first,

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my policy comes later. Yes, within this sphere of legally

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permissible area. But yes, how do, how do ensure if

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client needs 10 different things, why the client has

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to go to 5 different companies to get it? So that's where slowly the

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concept of IRIS came up and at that stage

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We never knew that it will become a large company. I just thought,

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let's just do it. I mean, I'll spend my time doing something or the other.

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So tell me, Sudarshan, I welcome her comments.

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Okay. No, I think I will add on to that. In fact, you know,

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I didn't even know that Gary actually was planning to put down his papers

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because I had put it down much before him. And I had an

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offer in hand. When you say put down my papers, what do you mean?

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Resigned. Resigned. Oh, I see. So I resigned much before

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than Gary did. And I did not, yeah, so I did not even know that

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he had also a resignation coming, you know. So

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it wasn't a coup d'état. The two of you didn't— I

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had. An offer in my hand. Okay. And I was, of course, I was

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enjoying the so-called transition leave when he calls

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out of the blue. Are you going to tell us who the offer was from

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or are you not? No, I see. Okay. I think I still have a lot

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of burnt bridges over there.

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Okay, we won't embarrass anyone on this podcast.

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So you had an offer in hand. So tell me what happened. Just very—

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see if you can compress it. Tell me what happened. So basically, Gary just

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called and, you know, we've always had a great working

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relationship. And yes, so we can at least vouch for the fact

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that professionally we think on the same line. So when he said, this is what

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I'm planning, what do you think about it? I just slipped in and said that,

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okay, are you calling me to ask if I can join? And if yes, what

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took you so long?

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I love it. I was saying to Sagarika last time we spoke, Gary,

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that Sagarika is a great

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example of, I don't know about the new, I've not been in India for

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many years, but the really sort of, there is

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no shyness, there is no hesitancy.

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Sagarika, you know what you want and you ask for it and you put it

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out there. And When you first came across

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this, Gary, were you— was this out of the

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ordinary for the young professional

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Indian woman, or was this something that was just, you

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know, you come across constantly? Well, not only initially,

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I think she still faces that situation quite many times

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when she go and meet a client to present how to

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do things. They believe that she's a marketing girl. And they look around

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saying, is anybody accompanying you who talk about the operations?

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They still believe she's a business development or a marketing girl. Actually, that's the

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reason she carries a very heavy bag because she's got tons of global prizes,

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best investigator. She puts those all thing on the table and then people say,

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okay, I'll talk to you. There's

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that great video that, or there

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must be similar videos where the lady comes in, sits down

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and they say, I'll have a cup of tea please. And I'll have a coffee.

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And she actually went out and got the tea, got the

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coffee, said, there you are. Then she said, now, where should we start with the

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documents? And you know, she'd already changed the dynamics of the room

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and they were eating out of her hand after that. They didn't know where to

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put their faces. That's actually a very, very true thing. I still

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remember that, you know, I had to present a finding to a board, okay? And

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I walked in and I was chit-chatting. Then when I realized that they're

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expecting somebody so-called senior to come in and present, okay?

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And you know, I introduced the company and then I said, okay, so let's, let's

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start. Like, no, we are waiting for your colleague. I said, oh, unknowing to you,

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she's already walked in and we are sitting together. So let's start now.

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Excellent. Excellent. But I have a strong feeling, and I've

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only been in India for 3 or 4 days at that time, that

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you are an exception rather than the rule, Sagarika. There

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are certain people that you don't think so. You think there's a whole

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bunch of young, dynamic,

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feisty Indian women, right? Absolutely. And when

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I look at them and I, and they're much junior to me and I

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look at them and say, I want to be you when I grow up. Excellent.

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Excellent. So, Gary, you get together,

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you get that, what it feels like, that

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little push from Sagarika saying, is what you're doing

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gonna, is really what you wanna do is go into business with me.

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And how long did it take from that initial

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conversation to putting, as it were, the name on the

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door of the office? Was it weeks, months, hours?

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Well, I'm very bad with timelines. I think Sagarika can

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answer this one. Oh no, I'm actually quizzing him. He needs to remember

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this. So he needs—

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Gary, you need Sagarika like I need other people in my life

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to remind me where I was, what I did, what I had for breakfast,

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right? Daddy, it took 12 days.

293
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12 days. I love it. Excellent.

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And see how precisely she could tell you 12 days? I don't

295
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know. Who knows, right? You're like me. It doesn't matter how

296
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long it took. It's now successful. So because

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I was working, she was counting. So she knows it took 12 days.

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Gary, did you find— you were in the army. Tell me briefly,

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what were you doing? Were you in combat? Were you actually in the line

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of fire in the army when you were there? Yeah, so I was a

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paratrooper and we are

302
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obviously the special force of India and we

303
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are in the combat most of the time. And I don't know whether I can

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say I was lucky or I should use some other word. But

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yes, looking at the battlegrounds of Kargil,

306
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Siachen, and Kashmir area, which I mentioned briefly earlier as well,

307
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was professionally satisfying as an army man.

308
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But if I see as a human, these are not good situations for us.

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No, I can, I get that. And what made you, if I may ask this,

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what made you go into the army in the first place? Is it something that

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your family has a long history of doing? No, I was

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actually the first guy in my family to join the Army. But I think it

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was a mixture of patriotism, sense of

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adventure, wanted to do something

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where such things can be accomplished. And I'm glad I

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was blessed to get that opportunity because I could only

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do that at that age. Rest of things I can try now and later.

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But Army was meant for only that time. So I'm glad I

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checkbox that in my life. Excellent. And it

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feels like, Sagarika, you've got a similar personality

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in a sense of, Gary jumped

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00:20:10,730 --> 00:20:14,410
out of airplanes, which always amazes me, but you

323
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seem like the sort of person that can jump out into the unknown

324
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without much fear. Are you totally fearless, Sagarika? Is there

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nothing that sort of disturbs your equilibrium?

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I mean, if I say that I'm totally fearless, that would be a lie. Nobody

327
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can be totally fearless. But I think I would still like to believe

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that I do have a greater degree of adaptability, and that has come with my

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growing up. And the other thing is that I have an extremely supportive

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family. So yeah, so they are like, okay, we got your back, do whatever you

331
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want. So I think with that, you know, you can jump into the unknown

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at any given point of time. So I ask as

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many guests as I can, as I can remember to do, So

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who was— and I'm afraid you can't refer to Gary—

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00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:04,100
who would you point to as the main guru in

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00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:07,700
your life that had a real impact on what you

337
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decided to do or not to do? Who would that be, Sagarika? It's

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unfair that you exclude the person who holds the answer. So it has

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to be Gary, does it? It is. It is. Okay. But I'm going

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to go back before Gary. Who was it that

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was, that had the biggest influence on the way you thought,

342
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the way you expressed yourself? Who was it that helped

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you instill in yourself that self-confidence?

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My grandmother. Your grandma. Okay. Yeah. That's great.

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And Gary, what about you? Who is, and again, I'm gonna hope

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you, you don't say Sagarika, who was your guru?

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So to be honest, if I have to count, there'll be so many

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because you learn smaller things from

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everybody. Of course, but I'm going to put you on the spot. You have to

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pick one. Yeah, I don't have one name to take. I think

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as of now, and especially during the youth and

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last few years, I think very less. You have to think about

353
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anything to think whether this is happening right, wrong,

354
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guru, not guru. I don't believe in thinking

355
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too much, so I really don't know. Okay, that's fair enough.

356
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:24,830
That's fair enough. Some people are lucky enough to have

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numerous gurus who steer them,

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point them, guide them in the right direction. I'm

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interested in understanding how the Indian

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investigative market has developed over

361
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the last 10, you

362
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started in 2015, is that right?

363
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,640
15. So 11 years

364
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or 10 full years. Tell me,

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Sagarika, what are the most significant changes

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that you have identified in either

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appetite, risk tolerance? I don't mind, but give

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me an idea so that people listening to this can understand

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How does the Indian— and I'm making an

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assumption here that most of your business is from Indian

371
00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:23,420
corporates, but I know there are— we do a lot of work for high

372
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net worths, et cetera. But what's the major change that has—

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major changes that have happened in the investigative space

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in India? I think, I mean, keeping humility

375
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aside and not being shy to admit that yes, we've played

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a role in contributing to this change, but I think the biggest change has been

377
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the shift in attitude. Earlier when we used to walk in and we used

378
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,720
to be asked for a case study, okay, or to ask that have you solved

379
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,600
such cases before, people were expecting that you will say, yes, we have seen

380
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,320
such cases in USA, in UK, or in Australia. Now people

381
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,040
ask that, you know, okay, have you solved such a case with regard

382
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,200
to an Indian corporate? Okay, what's been your experience

383
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,360
of handling local cases? So people are recognizing

384
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,800
the fact that they need Indian solutions because it's homegrown

385
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,740
and it has to be customized and there is no one checklist

386
00:24:15,740 --> 00:24:19,380
fit approach, and which we have not only seen in India, but slowly also

387
00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:22,580
been seeing in the Middle East where people prefer their local,

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00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:27,060
you know, methodologies and technologies to be used. So that is

389
00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:30,860
a real shift. And that is what makes the difference because no two geographies are

390
00:24:30,860 --> 00:24:34,420
the same. So why should the methodologies be the same? Okay.

391
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,180
And what about you, Gary? You come from a very different

392
00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:41,380
background. Is there any other

393
00:24:43,410 --> 00:24:46,850
And you were in Pinkerton, so that was

394
00:24:47,010 --> 00:24:50,610
a commercial profit-making business. Have you

395
00:24:50,610 --> 00:24:54,290
seen attitudes change over the time since

396
00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:58,050
you started working in the private sector? And if so, how

397
00:24:58,050 --> 00:25:01,810
have they changed? Well, sure. And like I said, maybe I'll take it to

398
00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:06,330
even a little older time. I started with Hill Associates

399
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:10,100
here in India back in 2003 when I created them. I

400
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:13,940
was the first employee of Control Risk in India. That's 2007. So,

401
00:25:13,940 --> 00:25:17,740
so seen it, seen it for more than 2 and a half years, 2

402
00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:21,260
and a half decades now. So one thing which is a major change in India

403
00:25:21,260 --> 00:25:24,860
and South Asia as well. So the Indian mindset will

404
00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:28,140
continue to fold hands and keep praying to

405
00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:32,420
God that losses will not happen to me, frauds will not happen to me. It

406
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:36,270
is not meant for me. So very fatalistic. Yeah. So

407
00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:40,110
now people have accepted, like for example,

408
00:25:40,110 --> 00:25:43,030
if you, you need to secure a house, you need to buy a lock and

409
00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:46,150
put it there. If you have more valuable things, you need to do more. You

410
00:25:46,150 --> 00:25:49,990
need to put security guards. So on the investigation side, there's

411
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:53,670
a major shift that one, people have accepted that if

412
00:25:53,670 --> 00:25:57,510
I'm running a business, losses, frauds are part of business. I

413
00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:01,300
need to have a mechanism to put it right. Second change, which is

414
00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:05,140
even far more encouraging than accepting that I need to do

415
00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:08,940
investigation and it's something fact-finding. Second change is people

416
00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:12,660
are doing preventive intelligence as well. Give me an

417
00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:16,780
example. One, not accepting to at

418
00:26:16,780 --> 00:26:20,620
least reacting and now even doing preventive. That's the shift I've

419
00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:24,180
seen in last almost 2.5 decades. So give me

420
00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:27,480
an idea. I've sort of touched on it, but

421
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,360
the 80-90% of your clients would be corporates, or

422
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:35,000
it's not as high as that, or it's a mix? What does

423
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,560
your profile look like? So yes, more than 90%

424
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,280
are corporate, some of the top Fortune 100 companies and Indian companies, but

425
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,560
also, thankfully, the team under Sagrika's leadership has made

426
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,080
a very good brand name that we even get some cases by Supreme

427
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,840
Court nominating us to do some work officially for them. And a lot of

428
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,640
other investigative agencies in India also do bank on us. In fact,

429
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,340
I can very proudly say that in Haryana, there's a

430
00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:04,900
millennium city called Gurgaon. Gurgaon Police has something called Forensics

431
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:08,580
and Monitoring Unit, which basically does all their digital

432
00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:12,300
forensics, cameras, signature analysis, a lot of forensics. So that has been

433
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:15,980
set up by IRIS and is also operated by IRIS employees sitting there and working

434
00:27:15,980 --> 00:27:19,460
with them. So it's quite a mixed bag, but more than 90%, yes,

435
00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:23,700
corporate. Excellent. And I'm going to ask each of

436
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:26,920
you to pick a different case. I want you

437
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,920
to pick a case that is notable for

438
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,160
you, either because of its complexity, either because it

439
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,440
was dangerous. Not more than a couple of minutes

440
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,280
at the most. But can you remember something? Obviously no names

441
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,000
unless it's been in the press, in which case I'd love you to name

442
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,640
names. Give me an idea of one of the cases that you did and why

443
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,400
it was significant to you. Sagarika, ladies

444
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,160
first. Okay. So yeah, I do

445
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,520
have the clearance to take the name, so I will. So I think we've all

446
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,080
heard the name of Vijay Mallya and Kingfisher, and we were supporting one of

447
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,520
the agencies, and I was the Chief Investigating Officer over

448
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,720
there. And yes, the case— Do you mean in-house? So this was while you were

449
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,560
at IRIS? No. So this was while I was in my previous role, and

450
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,010
it also then later spilled over. I did some consulting work also as a part

451
00:28:21,010 --> 00:28:24,010
of IRIS because the case. Went on for a long time. But it's part of

452
00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:27,690
your experience, what you're saying. Okay, great. Sorry to interrupt you. It was

453
00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:31,450
an investigative exercise wherein we submitted our report.

454
00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:35,290
And yes, then the threats even reached home. Okay. And there were

455
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:38,570
enough threats to tell us to drop the case or not to

456
00:28:39,130 --> 00:28:42,570
pursue. And yeah, ultimately we could not stop the man,

457
00:28:42,810 --> 00:28:46,540
but we know that our findings made a difference. And I think I

458
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:49,620
will forever remember the case because it showed you both

459
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:53,660
the power of investigative findings, okay, as

460
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:57,340
well as the dark side that nobody sees. Everybody just sees

461
00:28:57,340 --> 00:29:01,099
the exciting light. Are you able to give us a bit more flavor in terms

462
00:29:01,099 --> 00:29:03,620
of what the size of the fraud was

463
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,940
and how it was perpetrated? So Vijay Mallya was known as

464
00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:12,700
the liquor baron, okay, of India. And he right

465
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:16,100
now is in UK awaiting his extradition. And

466
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,720
yeah, so So he had millions and billions of loans from around

467
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,400
12 banks in India, and it has been rated

468
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,160
as the largest fraud ever in the last 50 years.

469
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Okay. And how did he go about perpetrating this, according to

470
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,320
you? Actually, that was the first case that woke us up to the fact

471
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,040
that how a person can significantly not

472
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,530
build assets in their name because they you

473
00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:47,210
did fear that this business will go down. And so you are extending a

474
00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:50,850
personal guarantee, but you have no assets in your name. Okay. So that was one

475
00:29:50,850 --> 00:29:54,130
of the red flags, which as a guarantor, I mean, you're taking a personal guarantee

476
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:57,730
on what basis? What is the net worth all about? So, and of

477
00:29:57,730 --> 00:30:01,410
course, it also showed us a lot of sides wherein we

478
00:30:01,410 --> 00:30:04,570
saw corporate collusion, we saw the nexus

479
00:30:05,530 --> 00:30:09,290
between bankers, we saw nexus between officials as well as the

480
00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:12,930
private people. So yeah, so I think that itself is a case

481
00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:16,670
study because for the first time we woke up to the fact that

482
00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:20,470
a fraud is not just a straightforward market risk that you give money to a

483
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:24,230
business and the business fails. The fraud is also about where the

484
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:28,070
money has been used, whether or not it has been channelized,

485
00:30:28,150 --> 00:30:31,790
misappropriated, okay, like siphoned off. So a lot of

486
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:35,350
people heard the word siphoned off for almost like the first time,

487
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:39,190
seriously. Oh really? I see. So using

488
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:42,950
money that had been borrowed for non-corporate purposes, this is one

489
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:46,730
of the first times that it become public and

490
00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:50,410
the Indians, and they realized that that wasn't right. And

491
00:30:50,410 --> 00:30:53,850
the fact that there here is a person who says that I don't have money,

492
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:57,530
and then we gave evidences of his son turning 21 and

493
00:30:57,530 --> 00:31:01,209
the father gifting an island to the son and throwing a lavish party. So where

494
00:31:01,209 --> 00:31:04,930
did that money come from? How do you differentiate the source of funds? So

495
00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:08,650
yeah, so I think that was the case that really in the corporate or

496
00:31:08,650 --> 00:31:12,490
the legal corporate terminology lifted the veil. Okay. To understand

497
00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:15,650
that yes, there are many layers to fraud. Okay. That's

498
00:31:15,970 --> 00:31:19,730
interesting. Gary, can you pick something and give us a bit of

499
00:31:19,730 --> 00:31:23,490
flavor as to the case and why it was interesting or large

500
00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:27,010
or important? Yeah. So I think the

501
00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:30,770
moment such a question comes up, there is one unique case which immediately hits my

502
00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:35,010
head, which we worked on the case for more than 5 and a

503
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:38,300
half years. Wow. And

504
00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:43,180
each onion peel going away was presenting a new

505
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:47,300
scenario. One of the most interesting parts was not that there were governments

506
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,940
involved and there were large corporates involved. In that task,

507
00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:54,700
we kept a set of people under surveillance for almost

508
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:58,340
4 years. And for 4 years, they couldn't detect

509
00:31:58,340 --> 00:32:02,100
that, yes, they were under surveillance. So that was one of the miraculous

510
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,940
fieldwork done that if you're putting somebody under surveillance for 4 years. Let

511
00:32:05,940 --> 00:32:09,620
me just get this right, Gary. You put people under surveillance for

512
00:32:09,620 --> 00:32:13,140
4 years. Yes.

513
00:32:13,540 --> 00:32:17,300
Amazing. That is what I call patience, right? The client clearly in

514
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:20,860
those circumstances was willing to play not just a

515
00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:24,620
long game, but a long, long game, right? Yeah. And, and it

516
00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:28,100
not only included the day, but day and night surveillance,

517
00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:32,490
24/7. And if this person is, if he obviously has some

518
00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:35,970
intelligence, is going to fly out tomorrow, then we'll

519
00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:39,570
have somebody at the airport ready with a ticket. So that because

520
00:32:39,570 --> 00:32:43,330
if you need to enter the Indian airports, you need to have a valid

521
00:32:43,330 --> 00:32:47,170
ticket and ID. So we'll have somebody buy a ticket, go inside, see which

522
00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:50,930
flight he's catching. Then we'll have a person ready in that city

523
00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:54,610
to start the surveillance from that airport. And tell me,

524
00:32:54,610 --> 00:32:58,030
are you able to tell me What was it these people

525
00:32:58,030 --> 00:33:01,790
were suspected of? So they were very critical

526
00:33:02,430 --> 00:33:06,110
players of a fraud that could have, although the exact value was

527
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:10,350
never available, but that fraud could have been close to $1 to $1.5

528
00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:16,070
billion. And they were critical players, key people. And also

529
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:19,910
there were immediate front ends available that

530
00:33:19,910 --> 00:33:23,620
can be analyzed to know

531
00:33:23,620 --> 00:33:27,381
Who all further are supporting them. And obviously there was, there was

532
00:33:27,381 --> 00:33:30,980
a large team working on it and all those analysis actually kept

533
00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:34,700
telling our client that how exactly there were people

534
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:38,100
sitting overseas who were funding them. They were just the puppets

535
00:33:38,340 --> 00:33:42,180
ahead. So a lot of those interesting inputs keep flying in. And so

536
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:44,980
without naming names, it was, was it

537
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:47,780
about internal

538
00:33:49,390 --> 00:33:52,870
employees? Sabotaging their company or stealing? What was the

539
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:56,430
actual core wrongdoing? So there was

540
00:33:56,510 --> 00:34:00,110
different angles involved. Definitely stealing from the company

541
00:34:00,110 --> 00:34:02,510
was one, bribing the governments was

542
00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:07,350
another, trying to use power of

543
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:10,590
authority within the organizations to suppress

544
00:34:11,310 --> 00:34:15,020
others. At the same time, whatever you can find in the bad book,

545
00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:17,740
those were checkboxes by these group of people who were

546
00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:22,380
operating. And I know, silly question maybe, but

547
00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:26,220
why did it take 4 years? What was it that you were

548
00:34:26,220 --> 00:34:29,940
waiting for? Or maybe the better question is, at the point

549
00:34:29,940 --> 00:34:33,460
in time where you said, eureka, we have

550
00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:37,100
the evidence, what was it that you got at the end. Of that

551
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:40,540
4-year period? Evidence was available even in the beginning. The

552
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,160
challenges Our client had to create that environment when

553
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,440
all this information and evidences can be

554
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,520
effectively utilized in an international jurisdiction.

555
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,999
So, so just let me digest that. What you're saying

556
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,680
is, is that this was an international fraud

557
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,640
and, and the. Length of time— you are in UK

558
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,450
and you are a lawyer there and You are going to have a legal

559
00:35:09,450 --> 00:35:13,090
battle in the courts of England and Wales, and you need evidences

560
00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:16,610
from India. While the court battle is going on, you want

561
00:35:16,610 --> 00:35:20,130
a continuous supply of intelligence

562
00:35:20,130 --> 00:35:23,850
and evidences so that the court battle you continuously keep winning.

563
00:35:23,850 --> 00:35:27,690
Because courts, again, there's one major judgment, but you're doing a lot of appeals

564
00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:31,450
and things which happen regularly. So was this a case where litigation

565
00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:35,170
was ongoing? Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I

566
00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:38,610
made the wrong assumption that this was a surveillance leading up

567
00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:42,420
to a piece of litigation. This was a

568
00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:45,980
parallel investigation that was happening at the

569
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:49,740
same time as some serious litigation. Yes. And you

570
00:35:49,740 --> 00:35:53,500
can see that increases the complexity and sensitivity because other

571
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:56,900
parties are aware that somebody will try to do investigation on

572
00:35:56,980 --> 00:36:00,700
them, surveillance on them. In spite of that, if team could pull that out

573
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:04,340
was really a, a good work. And I'm gonna ask you

574
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:08,150
this question, if I may, Sagarika.

575
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:11,950
How common is it for clients to instruct

576
00:36:12,510 --> 00:36:15,790
you to look into and

577
00:36:16,270 --> 00:36:19,550
to surveil and to monitor the

578
00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:23,710
opposition when they are already involved in litigation? Is it a

579
00:36:24,350 --> 00:36:28,150
common thing that you come across in India? I don't think there's a straight

580
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:31,870
jacket answer to that. Okay. Number one. Number two is that, you

581
00:36:31,870 --> 00:36:35,060
know, and I speak on behalf of both of us, We

582
00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:39,300
always assess the risk before we actually say anything of that

583
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:43,100
sort. So just because a client says that, yes, go do a surveillance,

584
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,860
we will not really go into a surveillance. We will actually be seeing

585
00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:50,460
that what are the risk implications at all. And

586
00:36:50,460 --> 00:36:54,100
yeah, but fairly, I would border on that's not common, not common at

587
00:36:54,340 --> 00:36:58,020
all. How do the judges, I guess in a way I

588
00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:01,730
know, but I just want to see the cultural if there is

589
00:37:01,730 --> 00:37:04,970
a cultural difference, if a judge

590
00:37:05,290 --> 00:37:08,970
in a significant piece of

591
00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:12,250
litigation in India is told, or

592
00:37:12,250 --> 00:37:16,090
the defendant or the plaintiff

593
00:37:16,169 --> 00:37:19,690
complains that they have been surveilled or that they

594
00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:23,010
have had people asking questions, what are the

595
00:37:23,010 --> 00:37:26,810
judges' attitudes? Is it a very practical Well, I'm

596
00:37:26,810 --> 00:37:30,290
very sorry, this is the real world you live in and you have to suck

597
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:33,690
it up. Or does the judge take a

598
00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:36,970
rather jaundiced view

599
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:41,050
of investigations going on, even though, of

600
00:37:41,210 --> 00:37:44,490
course— and it may be they don't live in the real world, lots of judges.

601
00:37:44,570 --> 00:37:48,090
But what is the judiciary's approach to this,

602
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:52,450
Sagarika? So, Gary, I think surveillance is a very broadly termed coin

603
00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:56,150
when it comes to India. Okay. So our Constitution

604
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:59,790
gives us the right to life, and that also includes the right

605
00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:03,030
to bodily safety. So unless and until I

606
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:06,430
am encroaching on anybody's bodily safety, or

607
00:38:06,430 --> 00:38:10,230
I'm outraging modesty of an individual, or

608
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:13,870
fringing into their personal space, it's almost like

609
00:38:13,870 --> 00:38:17,630
I'm watching their public activities. And whatever you're doing in the

610
00:38:17,630 --> 00:38:21,430
public activities, it's up for scrutiny. So yes, while we

611
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:25,070
are using the lexicon surveillance, but it's

612
00:38:25,150 --> 00:38:28,870
actually just an on-ground watch. It's just that

613
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:32,230
somewhere or the other, me being an investigator, I am

614
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:35,710
more mindful of a particular person because, hey, that's my

615
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:39,470
job. That's what I'm getting paid to do. But you would also, in my

616
00:38:39,470 --> 00:38:43,310
same position, by standing next to me, be observing the same person, but it's not

617
00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:46,270
your KRA to observe, so you will not be noticing the little.

618
00:38:48,220 --> 00:38:51,940
Nuances. So, Gary, when you— Plus, maybe I'll just add a small comment here,

619
00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:55,740
Gary, that the surveillance itself is not the end

620
00:38:56,300 --> 00:39:00,100
result. For example, if I'm looking at someone, it is only generating leads

621
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:03,860
for me that what I need to find. Surveillance may not

622
00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,420
be the end game finding an evidence. For

623
00:39:07,740 --> 00:39:11,540
example, if I notice somebody has gone to a farmhouse and this guy

624
00:39:11,540 --> 00:39:15,350
is not returning government-owned or bank-owned or

625
00:39:15,830 --> 00:39:19,590
somebody-owned hundreds of crores of rupees, but that farmhouse is

626
00:39:19,590 --> 00:39:23,390
in name of his driver, right? So surveillance may give me

627
00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:27,070
a hint where I need to look for. So surveillance is not always the

628
00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:30,910
end result. Rather, it can also be a lead generation activity.

629
00:39:30,910 --> 00:39:34,710
And it may not be done all the time, but these leads can be generated

630
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:39,030
during different other activities as well. Okay. So one other

631
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:42,790
question. Thank you for that addition. One of the

632
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:46,250
things that I wanted to ask you is to

633
00:39:46,250 --> 00:39:50,090
what extent, Gary, how far

634
00:39:50,090 --> 00:39:53,810
can you go with surveillance in India? Can I

635
00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:57,490
sit behind you in my car

636
00:39:57,970 --> 00:40:01,730
and drive and follow you to the office, wait

637
00:40:01,730 --> 00:40:05,090
outside the office, follow you home, sit outside? What are

638
00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:08,850
the boundaries on surveillance? And I understand Sagarika

639
00:40:08,850 --> 00:40:12,600
says that the right to

640
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,400
Freedom is in the Constitution, but what are the practical

641
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,120
boundaries to what you can do in surveillance?

642
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,880
So the practical boundaries are twofold. As Sagarika already pointed

643
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,720
out, Constitution lays out clear rules. Obviously, there is

644
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,080
right to privacy, right to not get into

645
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,060
somebody's sort of data, and a lot of other details. So as long as it

646
00:40:36,530 --> 00:40:40,370
is more like a public view, your surveillance is very limited to that

647
00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:43,970
itself. And at the same time, like, as of

648
00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:48,490
now, not only what law says, but also what

649
00:40:48,490 --> 00:40:52,050
Indian law and other laws say, but as an investigator, you

650
00:40:52,129 --> 00:40:55,810
also hold a moral responsibility of not

651
00:40:56,210 --> 00:41:00,010
letting cross a line. So a lot of time, let's say,

652
00:41:00,010 --> 00:41:03,700
when we work with the clients, it may not be just limited to Indian

653
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:07,460
law. Maybe they have their own policies. So a

654
00:41:07,780 --> 00:41:10,900
US-based company may say, this is my US law which need to be followed, this

655
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:12,700
is my policy. So there are a lot

656
00:41:13,980 --> 00:41:17,660
of situations when you cannot do multiple

657
00:41:17,740 --> 00:41:21,460
things. Surveillance can be zero, pretexting can be zero. A lot

658
00:41:21,460 --> 00:41:25,300
of these things are there. So as an investigator, we not only

659
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:29,140
have to be alive to what Indian law says, but a lot of international

660
00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:32,640
laws, and at the same time, what these corporate companies have

661
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,120
made policy for themselves. So there are different lines and we have to operate within

662
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,840
those spheres. Also, I would like to add that there are also

663
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,360
a lot of social nuances, a lot of gender nuances,

664
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,560
age-related nuances. So different, different countries or different

665
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,520
even, you know, subgroups have different vulnerabilities. So you have to be mindful

666
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,320
of that as well. So, you know, whether or not certain thing

667
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,000
is permissible, it also depends on who's your target group.

668
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,760
It's women, it's children, it's elderly. Which religion? Are there

669
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,240
any cases that you two know of where

670
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,520
people have taken off for any

671
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,840
reason? The courts have ruled on what is or

672
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,720
is not an acceptable invasion

673
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,800
of privacy because, i.e., in the public

674
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,880
interest or when you are pursuing a fraud. Have there been any cases that you

675
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,180
two know of where the courts have, as it

676
00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:31,980
were, ruled, made a decision about in this set of

677
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:36,220
circumstances, what these people did was okay? Well, not aware of any

678
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:39,940
particular thing, but I think I must also say that, yes, I

679
00:42:39,940 --> 00:42:43,780
did mention about surveillance being one of the critical things we did, but it's not

680
00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:46,940
that surveillance is happening every day, every time. Surveillance

681
00:42:47,420 --> 00:42:50,140
is just one thing because a lot of what

682
00:42:50,940 --> 00:42:54,750
does fraud accompany, right? It means illicit

683
00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:58,550
gains, right? Some money being followed. So, so, so the digital

684
00:42:58,550 --> 00:43:02,270
forensics, the accounting forensics, review of documentation, a lot of

685
00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:06,110
these stuffs are there. So I think obviously we overemphasizing it right now.

686
00:43:06,110 --> 00:43:08,590
I think there are a lot of other things which are, which are major part

687
00:43:08,590 --> 00:43:12,230
of, part of investigation, but no, I'm not aware of any particular case

688
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:15,710
law available to provide that as a

689
00:43:16,110 --> 00:43:19,630
mention. Let me pivot, as they say in the classics,

690
00:43:20,570 --> 00:43:24,170
and ask you about training as

691
00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:27,730
an investigator. Are there courses that you

692
00:43:27,730 --> 00:43:31,290
can take and qualify as an investigator in

693
00:43:31,450 --> 00:43:35,050
India? And if so, where do you, where can you take

694
00:43:35,050 --> 00:43:38,650
them? And are they university standard or what?

695
00:43:38,650 --> 00:43:42,410
Yeah, so that's, that's a very interesting part. Like I mentioned earlier, even,

696
00:43:42,410 --> 00:43:46,130
even back in beginning of 2000s, or even when Sagrika in

697
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:49,290
2011 wanted to be an investigator, there were no official

698
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,480
schools. Somebody has to learn the hard way. And at the same time, it's your

699
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,320
own zeal which will make you learn more and more rather than an

700
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,880
official curriculum. But today, thankfully, in India, there are

701
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,680
full-time universities which are working on this

702
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,280
subject. So we have a National Forensics University. We have a lot of

703
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,840
state universities. We have a lot of private universities which are

704
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,490
even running not only graduations, but the master's. Or

705
00:44:15,490 --> 00:44:19,330
the MBA courses within the space of investigations, intelligence, and

706
00:44:19,890 --> 00:44:23,410
security. So this has become a

707
00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:27,210
recognized career in India. I think if I try

708
00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:30,929
to look at the numbers, we have definitely almost 8,000

709
00:44:30,929 --> 00:44:34,650
to 10,000 students doing courses which are directly linked

710
00:44:34,650 --> 00:44:38,330
to investigations and security. That's really interesting because

711
00:44:38,330 --> 00:44:41,970
I don't think—. I would also like to add over here a slightly

712
00:44:42,050 --> 00:44:45,310
different view of somebody who did not

713
00:44:45,390 --> 00:44:49,110
study investigations but would like to believe that she did fairly okay

714
00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:52,350
in it. Okay, that the beauty of investigations is that,

715
00:44:52,750 --> 00:44:56,550
that the answer can lie anywhere. So no matter what you are

716
00:44:56,550 --> 00:45:00,310
studying, you can use it, okay, for investigations. I remember that

717
00:45:00,310 --> 00:45:03,950
I solved one of the fraud cases using something that I learned in

718
00:45:04,270 --> 00:45:07,870
B-school, okay, or like a bottleneck case study. I,

719
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:11,670
I also did a small course in digital marketing, and that really helped me

720
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:15,390
with my open source, or as they call it, the OSINT research, because

721
00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:18,330
I understand your I understand algorithm

722
00:45:18,970 --> 00:45:22,730
tagging. So, you know, at the end of the day, it's not what you

723
00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:26,490
have learned. It's basically, are you willing to apply yourself full

724
00:45:26,490 --> 00:45:30,290
out? That makes you an investigator. I see. Okay. Well, that's,

725
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:33,450
that's a fair comment. And what I would like

726
00:45:34,170 --> 00:45:37,850
to understand as well and share with

727
00:45:37,850 --> 00:45:41,690
our audience is the question of what

728
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,200
information is publicly available in

729
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,320
India. From my perspective as an international

730
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,120
asset recovery and fraud investigative lawyer, you

731
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,800
start off with, okay, what can I get without any

732
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,280
court orders and without letting the other side

733
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,960
know? If it's pre-litigation,

734
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,480
generally, what can I collect? What can I have access

735
00:46:09,350 --> 00:46:13,110
to that is, it may not be

736
00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:16,910
something that everyone knows is available, but I can do a

737
00:46:16,910 --> 00:46:20,350
search in this particular registry and find out

738
00:46:20,350 --> 00:46:24,030
some interesting information about you. What

739
00:46:24,030 --> 00:46:27,830
are those main silos of publicly

740
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:31,710
available information that is like Investigation 101? If I walk

741
00:46:31,710 --> 00:46:35,400
into your door and say, I want to investigate

742
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,720
Gary Singh at IRIS. What do you do

743
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,680
as Investigation 101? So I think when you look

744
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,680
at India and a lot of other Asian and African

745
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,640
countries, surely the challenge is either the data is not

746
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,800
digitized or maybe it's not centralized. So I will say in India,

747
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,520
there are different buckets if you go for, let's go for

748
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,570
the first bucket, which is is centralize and digitize

749
00:47:03,210 --> 00:47:07,010
data. The Ministry of Corporate Affairs has done a great job that all the

750
00:47:07,010 --> 00:47:10,010
private limited and limited companies, every bit of data with

751
00:47:10,170 --> 00:47:12,650
them, shareholdings, balance

752
00:47:13,290 --> 00:47:16,729
sheets, ownership, beneficiary. Can I go

753
00:47:17,530 --> 00:47:20,690
online now and look up, go into the

754
00:47:20,690 --> 00:47:24,170
corporate database and type in Gary

755
00:47:24,970 --> 00:47:28,770
Singh, and will I be able to see what companies you are

756
00:47:28,770 --> 00:47:31,610
a director or a shareholder of? Yes. That's dead easy.

757
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:36,590
Yes. You could, you You can see, and obviously this data, the Ministry of Corporate

758
00:47:36,590 --> 00:47:40,270
Affairs data is also available through a lot of private players who make it very

759
00:47:40,270 --> 00:47:43,990
easy to search and all that. So you can see my all directorships straight

760
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:47,270
away without even paying for anything. But yes, if you want to

761
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:51,270
see, let's say, who owns how many shares, the balance sheets,

762
00:47:51,350 --> 00:47:55,190
yes, there is a small payment. And this payment is what, £3, you

763
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:58,430
get complete company details. So it is very small

764
00:47:59,140 --> 00:48:02,660
payment. So that's one data which is very robust, solid,

765
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:06,380
reliable, and can be used in the court of law as an evidence as well.

766
00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:09,940
So that's all basically— Let me ask you this. Will it also

767
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:14,140
include your residential address of the directors and shareholders?

768
00:48:14,140 --> 00:48:17,140
Will it actually identify where you live in terms

769
00:48:17,140 --> 00:48:20,820
of jurisdictional base? Correct. It will have all

770
00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:24,550
those data. Okay. So like we do in England.

771
00:48:24,550 --> 00:48:27,910
We very often start off with that as your

772
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:31,430
basic starting point. And then you see, ah,

773
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:35,070
Gary's associated with 12 different companies. 3 of them

774
00:48:35,070 --> 00:48:38,750
have dissolved. Oh, this is interesting. He's got an

775
00:48:38,830 --> 00:48:41,870
address here, an address there, and an address

776
00:48:42,590 --> 00:48:46,230
there. Let's go. And which is my next question. Is there

777
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:50,070
a land registry, centralized records that I can

778
00:48:50,070 --> 00:48:53,770
go and check what Gary owns? Yeah. So before I go

779
00:48:53,770 --> 00:48:57,570
there, I will also put in one more layer in between. Along with the Ministry

780
00:48:57,570 --> 00:49:01,170
of Corporate Affairs, all the listed companies which are stock exchange listed

781
00:49:01,170 --> 00:49:04,970
and all, they have a heavy regulation in terms of disclosures. So they

782
00:49:04,970 --> 00:49:08,610
also provide all that data and everything is fine. Now, before we go to

783
00:49:08,610 --> 00:49:12,370
the land registries and those, there's one more database which is very important to

784
00:49:12,370 --> 00:49:15,530
talk about in between, are linked to the

785
00:49:15,530 --> 00:49:18,780
criminal databases, linked to

786
00:49:18,780 --> 00:49:21,660
to the legal records and

787
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:26,060
also certain Interpol-linked databases. So those are also

788
00:49:26,220 --> 00:49:29,340
available, very much available. They can be done and they're

789
00:49:29,580 --> 00:49:33,100
available handily centralized. Maybe you actually pay for

790
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,500
certain databases, you don't pay for certain databases, but all that is available. Coming to

791
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:39,820
now land records. Now land records— Hold on, just pause. For a

792
00:49:40,540 --> 00:49:43,740
second, Gary, just pause for one second because I'm interested in

793
00:49:44,220 --> 00:49:47,820
this. So in England, we have the criminal,

794
00:49:47,820 --> 00:49:51,180
bureau, criminal record bureau check, but that's

795
00:49:51,740 --> 00:49:55,180
very limited. In India, it sounds as if it might

796
00:49:55,180 --> 00:49:58,940
be a broader, ability to check on

797
00:49:58,940 --> 00:50:02,500
whether you or Sagarika have got a criminal record. Is that,

798
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:05,500
am I understanding that correctly or, or have

799
00:50:06,140 --> 00:50:09,540
I misunderstood? So two things attached to it. There

800
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:11,690
are certain criminal lists which are

801
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,560
officially declared. That is, that is available. But at the same time— that

802
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,280
is available. Yeah, that is available. But at the same

803
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,480
time, like India, the way you have provinces, we have

804
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,320
states. So all the police records, all this land

805
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,080
records are a provincial matter or a state matter. So

806
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,280
which means if you need to do searches, you need to go to that particular

807
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,720
state, to that particular district. And one district may have multiple

808
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:43,080
land record offices. So some states have done great job of

809
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,900
digitizing these records. At central place you can look at, but a lot of other

810
00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:50,260
times you have to do a lot of legwork of going to different registries and

811
00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:52,860
finding it out. But you, you know, there

812
00:50:53,660 --> 00:50:57,340
is another alias known for Sagrika. She's called the

813
00:50:57,340 --> 00:51:00,540
Encyclopedia of Asset Tracing. So I think she's commenting on this. Will be

814
00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:04,580
far better. No, that's not the point. See, the point is

815
00:51:04,580 --> 00:51:07,900
not whether the data exists or not. The data does exist

816
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:12,250
in India. Actually know how to search it. Because as Gary said

817
00:51:12,250 --> 00:51:16,090
that every state has a different rule, every state also has a different language. We

818
00:51:16,090 --> 00:51:19,770
are a land of languages. And also every state

819
00:51:19,770 --> 00:51:23,490
has a different way in which your family genealogy

820
00:51:23,810 --> 00:51:26,810
is maintained. So I take my roots from a state which

821
00:51:27,050 --> 00:51:30,730
is so-called matriarchal in nature. A lot of my, you

822
00:51:30,730 --> 00:51:33,410
know, our property records does get tied down

823
00:51:33,490 --> 00:51:37,010
to the matriarchal lineage of the family.

824
00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:40,470
Whereas Gary actually takes roots from a state, Punjab,

825
00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:44,110
wherein the property records actually start with the grandfather's name. So unless you

826
00:51:44,110 --> 00:51:47,750
know his grandfather's name, you can't really search his properties. So there

827
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:51,430
are very different nuances. And unless and until you've

828
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:54,950
been on ground, and that is why I always harp this word that boots on

829
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:58,470
the ground, unless and until you've been there, you've sat with

830
00:51:59,030 --> 00:52:02,710
the officers, you cannot learn how to search online. It's a

831
00:52:02,870 --> 00:52:06,500
reverse. Yeah, more than the search and data, Gerry, I would also like to add

832
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:10,060
that I always treat these fraudsters

833
00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:14,460
as experts. They plan, they rehearse, they execute their

834
00:52:14,460 --> 00:52:18,140
plans very well, which means the fraudster may

835
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:21,899
not actually pick up a property in his or her name.

836
00:52:21,899 --> 00:52:24,860
And that is a big challenge in India, which we

837
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:28,820
actually call benami properties. Benami actually means they are not

838
00:52:28,820 --> 00:52:32,380
under the real name. Rather, there are people who are owning it

839
00:52:32,380 --> 00:52:36,180
for somebody else. So finding that person. It becomes unique. Like

840
00:52:36,180 --> 00:52:40,020
we have, we have seen situations when housemaid is a

841
00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:43,260
director and owner of a 5-star hotel. We have

842
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:47,020
seen large farmhouses owned by drivers of the people whom they're

843
00:52:47,260 --> 00:52:50,700
driving around. So, so that's a big challenge. And we also remember once we working

844
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:54,220
on a case, it was very sure that this large

845
00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:58,220
business house owns huge amount of land in this area, but

846
00:52:58,220 --> 00:53:01,960
not even a single square inch of land was under his name.

847
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,800
Name, and actually the complete village, they were used

848
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,560
to create land under their name. And when they wanted to put up a large

849
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,240
plant, they all just came and gave him the documents. Now it's yours from

850
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:17,039
today. So there are a lot of these practical challenges of some of the

851
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:20,920
countries which still have to get fully digitized. And a lot of Asian and African

852
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,640
countries are very similar to India when we have to have still

853
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,430
first know the game plan and then look at. Which data you need to

854
00:53:28,750 --> 00:53:32,430
look Okay. And so we've covered corporate, we've covered criminal,

855
00:53:32,430 --> 00:53:35,470
we've covered land registry. Is there anything

856
00:53:36,110 --> 00:53:39,470
else that is peculiar to, or is there

857
00:53:39,790 --> 00:53:43,390
a special approach to it in India? I get all of the diversity

858
00:53:43,390 --> 00:53:47,150
that must make— it's a bit like China. Every single

859
00:53:47,150 --> 00:53:50,990
state, town, city is, could be a different dialect, a

860
00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:54,270
different language. What about the

861
00:53:55,230 --> 00:53:57,310
question of of financial

862
00:53:58,590 --> 00:54:02,310
records and credit checks. I imagine you're going to tell me

863
00:54:02,310 --> 00:54:06,137
that state by state as well. If I want to find out— No,

864
00:54:06,137 --> 00:54:09,390
no, no. Income tax is a central government matter. And at the

865
00:54:09,790 --> 00:54:12,990
same time, India has got multiple credit

866
00:54:13,390 --> 00:54:17,110
check bureaus when not only your bank records,

867
00:54:17,110 --> 00:54:20,850
even if you're not paying your mobile bill in time,

868
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,760
is highlighted. So you're not paying credit card in time, you're not paying

869
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,000
your basic, these services also in time gets recorded. So thankfully India

870
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,600
has a very strong credit

871
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,440
check records now, but at the same time they are not available openly

872
00:54:36,759 --> 00:54:40,560
to everyone. They are available to the financial institutions or

873
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,320
the nominated agencies which are working with the financial institution. They gain access to

874
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,920
that. But yes, these records are superb because they record all

875
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,600
your addresses, your mobile numbers, your emails. So these

876
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,680
records are, I would say, a huge data bank for anybody who's

877
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,040
got access to it. Are you able to, as IRIS, do you have a license

878
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,800
to be able to access that financial data? So

879
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,640
we have certain databases that we are subscribed to, but

880
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,400
not all. Not all of them. So there is a limited amount that only

881
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,240
the financial institutions are able to access. Yes. And at the same time, there are

882
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:18,020
multiple of these databases, not just one single database. But over the

883
00:55:18,020 --> 00:55:21,740
years, Gary, we have actually, you know, got that credibility

884
00:55:21,740 --> 00:55:25,220
that now, as Gary said, that we even get mandates under the

885
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:28,980
court orders. So when we get mandates under court orders in order

886
00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:32,380
to investigate length and breadth, the court also says it by name

887
00:55:32,380 --> 00:55:36,061
that allow IRIS these records. So then we can approach these, you

888
00:55:36,061 --> 00:55:39,501
know, income tax or other bureaus with the court order and we can request

889
00:55:39,501 --> 00:55:43,140
for the records. Okay. So I want to ask

890
00:55:43,220 --> 00:55:47,010
now about the interplay between criminal

891
00:55:47,010 --> 00:55:50,690
and civil investigation. When you

892
00:55:51,330 --> 00:55:54,850
have a client that comes to you and says,

893
00:55:55,490 --> 00:55:58,130
we suspect that these directors

894
00:55:59,330 --> 00:56:02,770
have been stealing money from the company by,

895
00:56:02,770 --> 00:56:05,250
for example,

896
00:56:06,530 --> 00:56:10,330
inflating invoices, agreeing with somebody outside to pay money from the company,

897
00:56:10,330 --> 00:56:13,190
and then they take difference between the

898
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:17,590
real price and the extra price. We

899
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:22,190
know that they are both

900
00:56:22,190 --> 00:56:25,950
criminal offenses and civil wrongs at the same time.

901
00:56:25,950 --> 00:56:29,750
What's the attitude, A, of you, Sagorika, and then

902
00:56:30,070 --> 00:56:33,910
the client? Is it, let's go to the police immediately and tell them, or

903
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:38,070
is it, look, the police are only going to be able to do

904
00:56:38,790 --> 00:56:41,350
so much, let's investigate it

905
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:45,910
civilly. And give me an idea of the interplay between

906
00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:49,430
the two jurisdictions. Gary, I am a

907
00:56:50,070 --> 00:56:53,750
fact finder. Okay? At the end of the day, the facts can be used

908
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:57,510
for the civil case, civil defense, or the facts can be used for a

909
00:56:57,990 --> 00:57:01,790
criminal one. So for me, okay, I try to ask the client that what has

910
00:57:01,790 --> 00:57:05,310
your legal said? If the legal says that any which way, we are not going

911
00:57:05,310 --> 00:57:09,150
to get the money back amicably through settling of civil disputes, and it's a

912
00:57:09,150 --> 00:57:12,970
clear case of fraud, but I'm happy that the person gets their due by going

913
00:57:12,970 --> 00:57:16,770
behind the bars, then I will find the facts and it's up to the

914
00:57:16,770 --> 00:57:20,330
legal team to actually present it in that way. But yes, there are times

915
00:57:20,330 --> 00:57:23,890
when the strategy has already been decided that yes, we will

916
00:57:24,050 --> 00:57:27,850
go criminally. At that point of time, we step in to understand that what are

917
00:57:27,850 --> 00:57:31,450
the evidences that will help you in that particular strategy and we

918
00:57:31,450 --> 00:57:35,090
present accordingly. Let's say for a recovery case, okay, the clients

919
00:57:35,170 --> 00:57:38,570
are more interested to see what are the assets that they

920
00:57:38,570 --> 00:57:42,410
can actually attach so that they can sell off and get the money

921
00:57:42,650 --> 00:57:46,450
back, right? So they are more interested in finding tangible assets that

922
00:57:46,450 --> 00:57:50,250
can be sold off. But if the same point for a criminal case wherein

923
00:57:50,250 --> 00:57:53,529
they already know that no assets have been made and the money has been siphoned

924
00:57:53,529 --> 00:57:57,130
off and they really want to put the person behind the bars, then we

925
00:57:57,610 --> 00:58:00,930
go full-fledged to understand if there has been a mesh of companies which has been

926
00:58:00,930 --> 00:58:04,690
used to launder the money, which clearly shows the mens rea, as we call

927
00:58:04,690 --> 00:58:07,870
in our legal parlance, or the intent to

928
00:58:08,670 --> 00:58:12,510
defraud. When you go to a particular

929
00:58:13,070 --> 00:58:16,750
police authority, do you think they really understand

930
00:58:18,350 --> 00:58:21,910
financial fraud? Is there, is there a degree of sophistication

931
00:58:21,910 --> 00:58:25,390
in the Indian? And I'm sure like every country, they

932
00:58:25,710 --> 00:58:29,550
have a financial services or financial

933
00:58:29,550 --> 00:58:33,150
fraud unit. And is that in each state? How does it work

934
00:58:33,340 --> 00:58:36,620
in India? India. So obviously the traditional policing

935
00:58:37,180 --> 00:58:40,540
in India was more from a law and order perspective

936
00:58:40,540 --> 00:58:44,300
rather than investigation perspective. But knowing the

937
00:58:44,780 --> 00:58:48,140
present scenario, yes, not only

938
00:58:48,460 --> 00:58:51,980
every district, not only state has an economic

939
00:58:52,620 --> 00:58:56,300
offenses wing, but also now regularly there are

940
00:58:56,300 --> 00:58:59,660
new cyber cells and cyber wings which are coming up. So

941
00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:02,940
Indian police surely I will say, has woken up to

942
00:59:03,340 --> 00:59:06,980
the fact that, that things have changed and they need to

943
00:59:06,980 --> 00:59:10,420
also modify their practices. Yes, any government in the world has got

944
00:59:10,420 --> 00:59:13,860
its own bureaucracy, so they're not able to mutate as fast

945
00:59:13,860 --> 00:59:17,020
as the criminals are doing. But yes, huge efforts have been made.

946
00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:21,020
So every district will have an Economic Offences Wing. These

947
00:59:21,020 --> 00:59:24,260
officers undergo special training to how to conduct

948
00:59:24,260 --> 00:59:27,910
investigations. And simply, there are There are special bodies made

949
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:31,270
for different investigations. For example, there is Central Bureau

950
00:59:31,590 --> 00:59:35,110
of Investigation, which is a huge, huge capability in terms of all

951
00:59:35,110 --> 00:59:38,910
financial crime, financial frauds. There is Enforcement Directorate, which

952
00:59:38,910 --> 00:59:42,750
works on the specialist subject of money laundering, money siphoning.

953
00:59:42,750 --> 00:59:46,470
So these special units have been made and at the

954
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:50,270
same time regular trainings and other details are happening. Yes, they're

955
00:59:50,270 --> 00:59:53,820
close to perfection? No, but they're putting huge effort

956
00:59:53,820 --> 00:59:56,940
to continuously rise to the new challenges that they're

957
00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:01,420
facing. So let's look at some of the

958
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:04,860
psychological and personality aspects of what you,

959
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:09,340
we do. Is there a particular

960
01:00:09,340 --> 01:00:12,860
technique that either of you have

961
01:00:12,860 --> 01:00:16,700
developed, um, or works for you to

962
01:00:16,780 --> 01:00:18,380
identify when somebody is lying

963
01:00:20,950 --> 01:00:24,790
to you? You must have taken statements from or approached

964
01:00:24,790 --> 01:00:27,590
many hundreds of witnesses over the last 10,

965
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:31,910
15 years. What's your— how do you

966
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:35,710
form that view when somebody's lying to you, Sagarika?

967
01:00:35,710 --> 01:00:39,430
You make them believe that you believe in them

968
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:43,030
completely and make them speak, talk, talk, talk, because nothing is

969
01:00:43,030 --> 01:00:46,580
worse than getting caught in your own web of lies. But how

970
01:00:46,580 --> 01:00:49,420
do you know when, when it's not

971
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:53,460
an obvious contradiction? That's one way when you've asked them to say where

972
01:00:53,460 --> 01:00:57,100
were they on Tuesday and they've given you two different answers.

973
01:00:57,100 --> 01:01:00,940
Is there any other technique in terms of the

974
01:01:00,940 --> 01:01:03,820
way you, they are responding, their voice,

975
01:01:04,620 --> 01:01:07,740
their eye movement, their head movement? Is there something

976
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:12,110
in India that may not be the same in other countries? I think

977
01:01:12,110 --> 01:01:15,070
people are same everywhere, Gary. I see.

978
01:01:15,950 --> 01:01:19,270
Yeah. So we are all branches of the same tree. So of

979
01:01:19,270 --> 01:01:23,070
course, body language is a clear giveaway. But yeah, there

980
01:01:23,070 --> 01:01:26,789
are cultural nuances which of course play a huge role. But

981
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:30,190
at the same point of time, I think

982
01:01:30,270 --> 01:01:34,030
being patient and not being too eager to show them that you already

983
01:01:34,990 --> 01:01:38,550
know or you don't trust them. The best thing is to say that, yes, I'm

984
01:01:38,550 --> 01:01:42,340
here to listen to your story. Oh, that happened. Okay, okay, so how did

985
01:01:42,340 --> 01:01:45,980
it happen? Let's go a little bit deeper into that. So when you try to

986
01:01:45,980 --> 01:01:49,460
just take notes and just go deeper and deeper in that, and later come back

987
01:01:49,460 --> 01:01:52,860
to a point which they have forgotten, because it's very easy to forget a lie,

988
01:01:52,860 --> 01:01:56,700
and you contradict them, they give a different story. But of course, you

989
01:01:56,780 --> 01:02:00,540
do see at what stage their body language toughens, where do they

990
01:02:00,540 --> 01:02:04,300
turn defensive, where do their legs shake more, where are they sitting

991
01:02:04,300 --> 01:02:08,100
cross-legged or cross-armed, where are they drinking more water,

992
01:02:08,100 --> 01:02:11,940
or how enlarged is their Adam's apple. These are the common things that you

993
01:02:11,940 --> 01:02:15,740
actually see for across all geographies. But yeah, I mean, I'll

994
01:02:16,140 --> 01:02:19,860
say that in, when we do it in Middle East, there are a few other

995
01:02:19,860 --> 01:02:23,421
different cultural nuances to, you know, watch out for than when you do

996
01:02:23,421 --> 01:02:27,220
it in India or when you do it in Singapore. So

997
01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:31,020
yeah, those are different. And Gary, what about you? You've been in

998
01:02:31,020 --> 01:02:34,230
the army. It's not necessarily

999
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:38,070
an obvious investigative unit, but

1000
01:02:38,310 --> 01:02:41,990
it is a place where you have got to assess

1001
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:45,830
danger very quickly. And do you think you now

1002
01:02:45,830 --> 01:02:49,670
have a, a much more developed instinct from when people are lying to you when

1003
01:02:49,670 --> 01:02:53,430
you are asking questions? Well, I think

1004
01:02:53,430 --> 01:02:56,790
more than instinct, I've gone more factual. So before I get into

1005
01:02:57,350 --> 01:03:00,390
any interaction, there'll be a huge amount of spade work, which is already done by

1006
01:03:00,460 --> 01:03:04,100
the team. Team, and we have specific facts and numbers in front of us. So

1007
01:03:04,100 --> 01:03:07,940
what I try to do in the beginning of conversation, if I'm doing any

1008
01:03:07,940 --> 01:03:11,500
kind of investigative interview, is to go to some

1009
01:03:11,500 --> 01:03:14,860
very softer facts and

1010
01:03:15,020 --> 01:03:18,860
check whether they provide correct details or not. And

1011
01:03:18,860 --> 01:03:22,580
if they don't, that makes me go to a certain path,

1012
01:03:22,580 --> 01:03:26,220
know that they are here to lie, they're not open. So which means there is

1013
01:03:26,220 --> 01:03:29,950
more to be found out than we already No. Whereas if

1014
01:03:29,950 --> 01:03:33,470
I start finding that, yes, those facts have

1015
01:03:33,470 --> 01:03:36,630
been clearly presented and they say, no, I don't know this

1016
01:03:37,430 --> 01:03:41,110
and don't know that kind of stuff, then there's a different approach

1017
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:44,670
that, yes, at least they're here to support and there may not be a huge

1018
01:03:44,670 --> 01:03:47,950
amount of other hidden things that need to be brought out. So generally, in the

1019
01:03:47,950 --> 01:03:51,670
beginning of an investigative interview, doing some soft checks which

1020
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:54,750
help you to which path you need to treat is one of the techniques.

1021
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:59,950
That we So you've both been incredibly patient. We're

1022
01:03:59,950 --> 01:04:03,670
getting to the end of the lollipop in, in the sense

1023
01:04:04,070 --> 01:04:07,510
of the hour that I had allocated. I just got a couple

1024
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:10,870
of more questions and then I will let you

1025
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:15,270
go back to your normal lives.

1026
01:04:15,590 --> 01:04:19,030
One is, where's the next— India is,

1027
01:04:19,030 --> 01:04:21,270
as everybody knows, going through a

1028
01:04:22,980 --> 01:04:26,660
huge boom. Generally, those of us and you

1029
01:04:27,220 --> 01:04:30,860
involved in the investigation

1030
01:04:30,860 --> 01:04:34,660
and fraud investigation business, they know that

1031
01:04:34,660 --> 01:04:38,500
after a boom or in conjunction with a

1032
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:41,780
boom, there is huge corruption,

1033
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:45,700
huge wrongdoing. Are you seeing evidence of that now in

1034
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:49,410
India of projects that were, you know, built up

1035
01:04:49,410 --> 01:04:53,010
to be something, money raised or invested or

1036
01:04:53,010 --> 01:04:55,930
loaned, and it's starting to show itself, or is it

1037
01:04:56,890 --> 01:05:00,650
too early for that cycle in the Indian market?

1038
01:05:00,650 --> 01:05:04,410
No, I think India growth story since we

1039
01:05:04,410 --> 01:05:07,650
started opening up our economy in the beginning of '90s has

1040
01:05:07,650 --> 01:05:10,890
been very consistent. We've been very close

1041
01:05:12,090 --> 01:05:15,440
to 7-8% growth every year. So the growth which is coming up

1042
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,640
has been consistent. So let's say

1043
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:23,280
the so-called, the delta of fraud or the delta of investigation has

1044
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,920
been there for quite some time. And I don't see it going up or down

1045
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,680
as of now. So this is, like I said earlier, people have started accepting

1046
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,680
that losses and thefts can take place. We need to have mechanism to stop it

1047
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,120
or prevent it. So those things are there. So I don't see

1048
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,030
any upsurge or a downturn either. So that, that's where

1049
01:05:41,030 --> 01:05:44,430
India, India stands as far as my assessment is concerned. Is that your, what's

1050
01:05:44,430 --> 01:05:46,550
your view, Sagarika? Do you think we are going

1051
01:05:48,070 --> 01:05:51,790
to be faced with a tsunami of fraud

1052
01:05:51,790 --> 01:05:55,430
cases as a result of, I mean, the amount of

1053
01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:59,070
money that's going into the construction

1054
01:05:59,070 --> 01:06:02,830
and also into high tech? I don't know. I don't know whether you

1055
01:06:02,830 --> 01:06:06,630
know how many IPOs there have been in, on the Indian

1056
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:10,210
stock market in the last, let's say, 24 months, but

1057
01:06:10,210 --> 01:06:13,530
I'm sure it's more than there has been for a

1058
01:06:13,930 --> 01:06:17,690
long time. So what's your sense personally of when, you know,

1059
01:06:17,690 --> 01:06:21,530
they say when the tide goes out, people will be left without their

1060
01:06:21,530 --> 01:06:25,370
swimming trunks on. So that's okay. I mean, we are here to sell

1061
01:06:25,370 --> 01:06:28,610
the swimming trunks, so that's fine. So the beauty of our industry is that we

1062
01:06:28,610 --> 01:06:32,130
don't have a recession. So yeah, so if the, like, I'm like the

1063
01:06:32,130 --> 01:06:35,610
doctor who prays that, you know, yes, may there be all well in the

1064
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,640
world, but secretly knows that the world will never be bereft of diseases.

1065
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:43,040
So that's okay. Yeah. So bring it on. If it is there, we will detect

1066
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:46,800
it and we will clean it up one investigation at a time. But yeah, I

1067
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,440
mean, this is nothing, something that we have just seen. Okay. This is a cycle

1068
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,080
that comes and goes. There are crests and troughs and it will continue, be

1069
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,800
it India, be it any other economy. But that's why you have people

1070
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,560
like IRIS. So yeah, and we will survive and we'll thrive. Okay. Good bit of

1071
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,360
non, not too subtle advertising there, guys,

1072
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,020
but I'll let it pass for a second.

1073
01:07:09,020 --> 01:07:12,340
Guy, I'll just take 30 seconds. You brought in a very, very relevant

1074
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:15,940
point of IPOs because that's also a reflection of

1075
01:07:15,940 --> 01:07:19,380
economy. So if I go back in 2020, we had

1076
01:07:19,460 --> 01:07:23,060
only 15 mainstream IPOs, whereas in 2025 we have

1077
01:07:23,060 --> 01:07:26,460
more than 100 and more than 270 small

1078
01:07:26,820 --> 01:07:30,340
and middle-sized companies also going for IPO. So the total number

1079
01:07:30,500 --> 01:07:33,780
almost went close to 400. So that's been

1080
01:07:34,180 --> 01:07:37,880
the upsurge. And also at the same time, like I said Now, before

1081
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,400
going for IPO, the checks you do, and once you do your IPO and you

1082
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:45,320
list it, the amount of regulation you need to follow, disclosures you

1083
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,720
need to do, all that is, is a good sign

1084
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,120
of governance. Okay. What I want to end

1085
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,960
our wonderfully entertaining session on is a question for each

1086
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,640
of you, the same question, one

1087
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,080
short sentence. If you are If

1088
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,880
the young generation in, let's just say India because

1089
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,800
it's more relevant, are sitting there looking

1090
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,960
at this podcast, what piece of advice would

1091
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,200
you give, let's say, an 18-year-old

1092
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,800
at university, not sure what they want to do? What piece of advice would you

1093
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,560
give them, Sagarika? Be sure. You always have

1094
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:31,170
to be sure. Life does not happen till you

1095
01:08:31,170 --> 01:08:34,570
go. And you earn it. Be sure.

1096
01:08:34,730 --> 01:08:37,690
Okay. And Gary, what's the philosophy from you,

1097
01:08:38,490 --> 01:08:42,290
my friend? Well, my philosophy, I used to be a scout during school. It

1098
01:08:42,290 --> 01:08:44,170
was be prepared.

1099
01:08:47,770 --> 01:08:50,690
Be prepared. What are you going to do? Be prepared. Well, you have heard it

1100
01:08:50,690 --> 01:08:53,610
here, ladies and gentlemen, and I

1101
01:08:54,170 --> 01:08:57,829
really enjoyed sharing some time with both of you. Getting to know you

1102
01:08:57,829 --> 01:09:01,509
both a bit better. And, um, thank you so

1103
01:09:01,509 --> 01:09:05,069
much for joining me. Thank you for listening, and

1104
01:09:05,069 --> 01:09:08,349
if you enjoyed this podcast, please click and subscribe

1105
01:09:08,349 --> 01:09:12,148
to the Intelligence Advantage Podcast on Spotify

1106
01:09:12,148 --> 01:09:12,889
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