From Refugee to Undercover Detective: Journey Through Danger and Intelligence with Nick Shah OBE

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Did you never think, oh, that's it, I'm blown, I'm never

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walking out of this alive? Did you ever have that kind of feeling?

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Facilitating a crime, assisting it, abetting

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it, how do you judge whether you're going to come up and

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someone says, sorry, Nick, you should never have done that. We're

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going to do you with the criminals. So what would you say to that young

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Nick Shah? And he said, OK, Big Nick. What was

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the price you paid? You look like a completely normal dude. You know,

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don't pull my leg. What was the price you paid for that work? Or

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what did your family— what was the price your family paid for you being in

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that work? Welcome to the Intelligence Advantage

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Podcast, where I, Gary Miller, get to talk to the movers and

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shapers in the investigation and intelligence industry and

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find out exactly how they got to where they are today.

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I'm thrilled to be joined this morning by Nick Shah, a good buddy,

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and somebody who just brings everything to the world

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of intelligence and investigation. If I mention a few

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words such as kidnap, extortion, death

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threats, drugs, and arms, you'll get a bit of a feeling

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for what Nick's life has been like for a number of years.

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And we're going to hopefully explore that with him. So Nick, thank you so

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much. Thank you. For joining us. No, thanks for

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inviting me. Appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And before,

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I remember I suggested to you have a quick look at the previous

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podcast so you're not taken too much unaware. There were some familiar faces on there,

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Gary. There are some familiar faces. And one of the

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things I enjoy, and I hope you will enjoy, is just going

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into a bit about your background before we look at job titles and

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And what you did. I'm more interested in really who you

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are. So I hope my research is

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correct that you actually, you and your family were

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expelled from Idi Amin's Uganda and you

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arrive in the UK at the tender age of

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something like 4. And my question is,

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do you remember anything of that process? Was it scary or

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did it not register? Yeah, it's interesting because

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I was 4. I don't have a lot of memories, but, um, so my mum

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came over. My father had just passed. Well, he passed

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while she was pregnant with me. Oh, I'm sorry. She had 5

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children. By that time, my oldest son married and moved on, so she brought

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4 of them, 4 of us over in October of

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'72. Not been in the UK before, not

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understanding, um, anything, but We ended up in a

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refugee camp for a few months before we moved into

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some social housing and some council house that we got. But

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yeah, remarkable woman to

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bring us. And is she still around, Nick, or not? No, she

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passed, oh, probably around 20 years ago. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah.

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That sounds like a remarkable woman. So she arrives in the UK with how many

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kids? 5 in total? 4 kids in total. 4 kids in total. The

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oldest being? My oldest, my sister, would've been

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16. 16. And so I hope they're

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all around at the moment. Yep.

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So do you ever, the 4 of you, sit down and talk about that crazy

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period in your lives, or does she not remember much either? No, they

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remember a lot. I mean, to be honest, they took the brunt of it at

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that age. They remember everything. And, you know, I'm

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blessed because I have less of a memory, but they would tell,

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you know, we had a good life in Uganda. My family had been there for,

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well, my grandfather had moved there, so we'd been there for a long time

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and we had a good life. And all of a sudden we're literally in

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a different country. It's freezing cold, it's October,

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and we've got clothes we're wearing and a couple of small suitcases.

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Oh, so it was really an evacuation, was it? It was really get your bag

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and run. Well, it was that, and also I know the

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stories my sisters and my mum used to tell where on the way to the

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airport, the military would stop the coaches and

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steal jewelry and steal whatever they could to take off the

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passengers. So we literally came with nothing. But

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my mum was a very strong character, and she was 5 foot nothing,

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but literally, her view was, no, we start again, we move

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on. They started with nothing in Uganda and their view was,

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we just get on with it. And that's how she always lived her life.

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And you say you were in Uganda, the family. Before that,

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where does the Shah family actually originate? From

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India. Yeah. So I think back in the

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'30s, grandfather, my father, and my mom

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decided the new world was

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Africa. And they moved to Uganda and stayed there

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for all those years. Right.

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And the languages that your

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parents and your brothers and sisters, or those of them

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that were able to be at school, were what?

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Family language is Gujarati. So we all speak Gujarati, and that was

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my first language. But being in Africa, my mum

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spoke 5 languages. She spoke Hindi,

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Swahili, English, obviously Gujarati, and

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Urdu because they had a business

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and they were importing, exporting lots of materials

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and stuff. So all my brothers and sisters speak Swahili, which

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really annoys me because I don't. Because you don't, even though you have

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done a few stints in or around Africa, right? Yeah, I can

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get by with hellos, goodbyes, and, you know, can have a beer,

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but that's about it. That's about it.

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And you arrive in the UK in, as you

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say, October, wondering what on earth was

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happening to your world. And what was your first memory? Was

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it the weather or was it— and because you went straight to a refugee camp,

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what was that like? I have very little memories of it, which

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sort of we try and uncover later on in life. And I think it was

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just trauma-related element and the change and

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everything else. But I do remember the— and

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my sort of siblings and my mum used to say we were well looked after

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in the refugee camp. So there's volunteers. It was near

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Yeovil in Somerset. Right. You know, the

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charities, the churches, they all came out and helped us

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integrate, gave us clothes, gave us blankets. But

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it was cold for us. It was a very cold, harsh winter.

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And I remember being cold. Being the sibling and being the

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baby, I got probably better treatment than everyone else.

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And then sort of the next memory jumps forward to, I think we were there

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for about just short of 6 months and we

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get moved to a small town in Wiltshire.

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And we are blessed with a council

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house, and that's what the term was in those days. Yeah. We

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move into there and we lived there for many, many years. So you were

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there for a good part of your early life. Do you, one of

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the things that hits me from your

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biographies and the work that, the stuff that I've read is

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the influence that being in a council house,

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or was it a council estate, had on you in terms of

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where you saw your future direction in life?

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Or is that overplayed? No, not

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my future direction. What it did teach me was about people.

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We lived in this small village, well, small town for

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about, when was I, about 11 before we

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moved into a bigger city council estate. Right. I see. No, it was the

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council estate that I've read that had an influence on you. Yes.

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11 onwards, it was different, a lot more rougher.

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different element of life. It didn't choose my career path

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because I'm Indian and either you're a doctor or an

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accountant or a lawyer. And this is back in this '80s.

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Or an entrepreneur, because your mom and dad were business people,

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weren't they? Yeah. But my mom and my father,

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she would say, was very into education and the kids need

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to be educated. So my sister, one was a

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microbiologist, another, my brother was an accountant. My sister ended

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up as a bank manager. And I joined the police, which was not

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on the plan. I did my A-levels. I was due to go to

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university to do law, and, um,

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epitome. Oh, we could have been partners, Nick, in a law

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firm. Apparently I was too honest and truthful, Gary.

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So you were immediately directed to the police.

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But tell me a bit about the Perhaps the

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sharper edge of being Indian, Ugandan Indian

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on a council estate. I remember when I, Linda and I, my wife, asked this

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about our boys when they used to say to us, oh, who are you

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bringing home tonight? We're bringing Jelani and Romani.

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And so I said, well, where are they from? And kids

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don't initially identify people by color, which is

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wonderful until of course society gets hold of them. So, when did you

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realize that you were different from the rest of the gang?

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Probably from a really young age because the small town we

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moved in, we were the only non-white family there. Oh, wow.

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Okay. My brothers and sisters finished off their schooling, and then

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I started my schooling. And then when we moved to the bigger town,

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more noticeable. I had friends. It was good. You know, life

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seemed normal, although you get the bullies. And in those days,

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you remember, this is the '70s, you had the National Front sitting outside. Yeah.

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All handing out leaflets. And I was one of very few

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non-white kids in that school. And, and it's all directed towards

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us. So we were quite a quiet

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family. We didn't, you know, typical Hindu, turn the other cheek, walk

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away, leave it be. And we did that for most of my, most of my

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schooling. I didn't enjoy schooling. But, um, was it

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primarily because of that, Nick, that you've just felt always under threat?

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It was primarily because I didn't feel like I fitted in too well,

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right? The first town we were there, I loved school. It was great

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and small environment. Bigger school in the new town.

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Also, I joined halfway through the terms, so new

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boy and everything that's normal in, in all those factors.

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But I just I just didn't feel

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what was the point. I was doing this because I had to. Yeah.

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Because your parents expected you to, right? Yeah. And then

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I did my, in those days, O-levels, but my standards dropped.

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I used to be top of the class when I first went

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there. Kids used to come around and do homework with me.

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And over the years, it declined rapidly to

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You'll remember this when you had the choice of doing O-levels and

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GCSEs. No, CSEs. CSEs. Yes. Yes.

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And I went to, they put me in the CSE class.

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Wow. From last year. And so, yeah, it was a bit of a shock.

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I studied, I got the top of the grade of the CSE, but you know,

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where are you going to go with those in those days? You need to do

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A-levels, you needed O-levels. So I went back to college.

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And did a year, did all of the subjects again. So you did them all?

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Okay. And I got my O-levels and it was a different environment.

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College was much different. I enjoyed it and I did a year of that and

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then I did my A-levels. And what, do you remember the subjects you

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did at A-level or not? Oh God, yeah. Law, economics,

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and maths. Wow. I was just about to say, you and I almost

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ended up doing the same A-levels. I did law, economics

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and sociology because I was rubbish at anything to do with

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figures. And your experience probably with lawyers

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probably confirmed that there's not exactly a

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long list of super numeric lawyers around.

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Maybe I'm being a bit unfair now, but so—

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It was different. I look at my kids now and

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when they went through their schooling, for me, I I was rubbish

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at interpretation, English literature, all that.

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I didn't get that. Whereas I just, I would be happy

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with a simple yes or no answer, something that had fact. And

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those 3 subjects worked for me because there was only a right

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answer and wrong answer. Yes. So that's, it shows a little

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bit how your brain was, at least at that stage, working.

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So there you are. You've got decent A-levels, I imagine? Yeah,

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I've got a place. I had the options of Reading,

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Aberystwyth, and Warwick, I remember. Oh, wow.

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Those aren't anything to be a nose turned up at. So

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there you are. You've got, I imagine, strong pressure from mum

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saying, go to do law, go to do law. So what was the

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turning point? What was it that, as Malcolm Gladwell would say, what's the

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tipping point that pushed you towards the police? I think for

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me, firstly, my mum didn't pressure me. She was, she was the coolest

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mum ever. She, you know, having gone through what she'd done, yeah,

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she was, you do what you feel is right, but I think this is

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probably a next step for you to put the foundations down.

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It was probably my brothers and sisters that were keen to get

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me educated and get me on a path. And, um, and I got to a

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stage that we, we were still living in a council house, so by then It

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was me and my younger sister with my mum. And

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it was just a moment in time, Gary, which I still reflect on, and I'm

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not sure what happened, but one morning I just went, I'm done. I'm done of

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being poor and doing this

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sort of mouse sort of circle

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of just education. And there's gotta be more to life. And if I

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get a job, we'll get money and we don't have to be in this environment.

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Why the police? You know, I did look, um, at the end of my

229
00:14:26,538 --> 00:14:30,293
schooling period, and my area was at the Royal Navy, becoming a

230
00:14:30,293 --> 00:14:33,872
pilot, and was keen to do that. But then,

231
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,723
you know, my mum was going to be on her own, and all those factors

232
00:14:37,739 --> 00:14:41,205
fell in, and I went, okay, I can join the police. That's not far.

233
00:14:41,526 --> 00:14:45,120
And that's literally what I did. And I woke up in the

234
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,794
morning looking up on the wardrobe and seeing a uniform there and sort of scratching

235
00:14:48,827 --> 00:14:50,447
my head. How did that quite happen?

236
00:14:52,438 --> 00:14:56,212
Wonderful. So, so how does it work? Do you just— back in the day, I

237
00:14:56,212 --> 00:14:59,375
don't know whether there were online applications— you just walk into the local

238
00:14:59,889 --> 00:15:03,646
cop shop and say, I'd like a job please, mate? I actually, during

239
00:15:03,678 --> 00:15:07,451
my law degree— and law degree, my A-level law— I used to go to

240
00:15:07,451 --> 00:15:11,144
the Crown Courts a lot and sit and listen to things there. And

241
00:15:11,289 --> 00:15:14,918
there used to always be policemen in the courts then, and you'd see

242
00:15:14,918 --> 00:15:18,322
me literally a couple of times a week and sort of start chatting. So I

243
00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:21,967
asked him, And he said, well, go into the local police station and

244
00:15:21,983 --> 00:15:25,403
speak to someone. And that's how it, you know, there was nothing online then.

245
00:15:26,061 --> 00:15:29,866
And I had, yeah, 2, a few interesting things.

246
00:15:29,915 --> 00:15:33,222
They were keen. And then they asked me to speak to, there was one other

247
00:15:34,089 --> 00:15:37,863
Asian officer that was in the force who had been in the force for a

248
00:15:37,863 --> 00:15:41,540
long time. You should speak to him. So, I arranged to speak to him.

249
00:15:41,652 --> 00:15:45,378
Lovely guy. Really, really nice guy. He tried to persuade me not

250
00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:49,025
to, which was like, okay.

251
00:15:49,925 --> 00:15:53,605
But he was honest. He was honest and gave me warts and all. So I

252
00:15:53,605 --> 00:15:57,413
decided to do it. And then the process then was, it was quite historical.

253
00:15:57,541 --> 00:16:01,333
You had to first put an application in and then used to have home

254
00:16:01,333 --> 00:16:04,435
visits. They used to come to the house and visit you at home

255
00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:08,403
and speak to your parents or whoever it was at the time. Very

256
00:16:08,403 --> 00:16:11,903
sensible. They don't do it anymore. I don't believe so. It was

257
00:16:12,015 --> 00:16:15,158
funny because they actually came in uniform

258
00:16:15,944 --> 00:16:19,360
in a marked car outside the house where we used to live, which,

259
00:16:19,857 --> 00:16:22,743
you know, there was police cars down our street a lot, but not for that

260
00:16:22,743 --> 00:16:26,431
sort of thing. It was for other reasons. And they actually brought and

261
00:16:26,527 --> 00:16:29,750
left someone in the car 'cause they didn't want to leave the car unattended.

262
00:16:30,071 --> 00:16:33,390
So you can get a sort of flavor of where we lived.

263
00:16:34,128 --> 00:16:37,271
Yeah. My mum by that stage was going, if that's what you want to do,

264
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,628
You know, I'll support you. And so we did that, and then you had to

265
00:16:40,628 --> 00:16:44,001
go away for an assessment. I think it was a 2 or 3-day assessment at

266
00:16:44,001 --> 00:16:47,181
the headquarters, and finally told whether you were in or not.

267
00:16:47,856 --> 00:16:51,069
Did you get any, I don't know, pushback or

268
00:16:51,069 --> 00:16:54,763
resentment from the council house estate,

269
00:16:54,779 --> 00:16:58,602
council estate people, once they knew you were Mr. Plod? Well,

270
00:16:58,779 --> 00:17:02,248
no, we kept that very quiet because the way it worked

271
00:17:02,714 --> 00:17:06,134
in those days was that you never policed the area you lived in. Ah,

272
00:17:06,503 --> 00:17:09,647
okay. So I got moved. You did walk out the door in your uniform a

273
00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:12,759
few times, didn't you? No,

274
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,737
never. I used to work, and in those days, if you

275
00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:20,105
were, I think it was, if you were under the age of

276
00:17:20,137 --> 00:17:23,843
30 and not married, you weren't allowed to

277
00:17:24,211 --> 00:17:27,548
own a house. You couldn't buy a house. You either had to live at home

278
00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:31,333
or you had to live in police accommodation. And so

279
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:34,914
I moved some miles away. to my first

280
00:17:34,914 --> 00:17:38,606
posting, and so they put me up in police accommodation. So where

281
00:17:38,654 --> 00:17:41,666
were you? What was your first posting? Um, it was Trowbridge.

282
00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:48,514
Oh, so kind of not far from where you started life,

283
00:17:48,595 --> 00:17:52,091
right? Yeah, exactly. So, um, I

284
00:17:52,252 --> 00:17:55,817
joined that force, and so we moved there. And so when I used to visit

285
00:17:56,106 --> 00:17:59,905
back home to visit my family, I would always go in plain clothes. Not

286
00:17:59,969 --> 00:18:03,341
that I was particularly worried, but I didn't want to bring any attention to them

287
00:18:03,566 --> 00:18:07,371
when I'm not there. So you're doing whatever it is, the

288
00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:10,422
training. I don't know whether it was in Hendon in those days or it was

289
00:18:10,422 --> 00:18:14,196
somewhere else. It was in a place called Champmal

290
00:18:14,404 --> 00:18:18,242
in Dorset. So those forces around the south

291
00:18:18,515 --> 00:18:22,176
and southeast used to go there. It used to be 14

292
00:18:22,208 --> 00:18:25,724
weeks training. Okay. And

293
00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:29,113
Suddenly you've got whatever they call it, your wings, your hat,

294
00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:33,530
your lapels. Do you remember the first day on the

295
00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:37,369
beat? Do you remember that feeling of either fear and excitement

296
00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:40,983
or what? It was unusual. So, I had what used to have a

297
00:18:40,983 --> 00:18:44,404
tutor constable for the first, I think, few weeks

298
00:18:44,613 --> 00:18:48,034
before you went out. And there's a probationary period for 2 years.

299
00:18:49,094 --> 00:18:52,563
And first day, you know, I'm into a

300
00:18:52,563 --> 00:18:56,190
shift, there's not many new people. But my

301
00:18:56,190 --> 00:18:59,618
sergeant was an old-school detective

302
00:18:59,618 --> 00:19:03,111
sergeant who ended up back in uniform. Scary is scary,

303
00:19:03,448 --> 00:19:07,245
and you can imagine, and everything was as he wanted it.

304
00:19:07,854 --> 00:19:11,603
Yeah. Um, but I had a great team and, um, really welcoming,

305
00:19:11,715 --> 00:19:15,336
really put me, um, you know, supported me. But the

306
00:19:15,336 --> 00:19:19,181
sergeant was scary. And looking back in hindsight, I got to know

307
00:19:19,229 --> 00:19:22,850
him later on in my career, and a lovely guy, really nice guy, but he

308
00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:26,536
was actually I was kind of shy. I was kind of quiet,

309
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,270
which people find hard to believe nowadays. You know, although I lived in this

310
00:19:30,382 --> 00:19:33,940
council estate, we didn't really get involved in all that nonsense

311
00:19:33,988 --> 00:19:37,706
that my mates were and everything else. So he was toughening

312
00:19:37,706 --> 00:19:41,552
me up for a town which was pretty tough in those days. And but a

313
00:19:41,664 --> 00:19:45,237
great, great environment. My first day walking, because

314
00:19:45,285 --> 00:19:48,971
that's what you did everywhere. Yeah. And I did for the first 2

315
00:19:49,212 --> 00:19:52,625
3 years, 2 years, um, with the Chute Constable,

316
00:19:52,961 --> 00:19:56,663
and we ended up getting my first arrest on my first day.

317
00:19:57,688 --> 00:20:00,669
On your first day? Okay, well, you got to share that, I guess. It's an

318
00:20:00,669 --> 00:20:04,242
important— It wasn't very exciting. Patrol in the town center,

319
00:20:04,819 --> 00:20:08,248
and we ended up dealing with a shoplifter. Um, he actually,

320
00:20:08,584 --> 00:20:12,238
he was fighting, which was unusual. So fighting with the people that were

321
00:20:12,286 --> 00:20:15,891
trying to, to, um, arrest him? Yes. And so

322
00:20:16,758 --> 00:20:20,354
Yeah, that was my first day, first arrest. And yeah,

323
00:20:20,691 --> 00:20:24,400
it was nice. I was there with the tutor who guided me through

324
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,628
everything, to be honest with you, Gary. But it was nice to tick it off.

325
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,557
And sooner rather than later, some light bulb goes

326
00:20:32,910 --> 00:20:36,684
either on or off in your mind and you make a decision to

327
00:20:36,684 --> 00:20:40,184
do some pretty scary work. When and how does

328
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,652
that come about? I had some really good bosses, Gary, and

329
00:20:44,133 --> 00:20:47,970
I think— and we get to— oh well, I say our age.

330
00:20:48,323 --> 00:20:51,999
When you get older, you start to reflect a lot more. And how did that

331
00:20:51,999 --> 00:20:55,402
happen? Why did that happen? And it sort of looked back and ago, I had

332
00:20:55,466 --> 00:20:59,061
bosses that saw things in me that I didn't, if I'm honest. Okay,

333
00:20:59,077 --> 00:21:02,416
that's fair enough. I got pushed into roles

334
00:21:03,155 --> 00:21:06,477
that I didn't think I would have been prepared for, but I— it fitted.

335
00:21:06,847 --> 00:21:09,800
Um, so I joined the drug squad initially after about

336
00:21:10,458 --> 00:21:14,133
4 years in uniform. And that was more, this is what you need to

337
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:17,407
do, um, type, type of conversation rather than

338
00:21:18,017 --> 00:21:21,757
a choice I, um, I made openly and by my own sort of

339
00:21:21,773 --> 00:21:25,400
thing. And that taught me an awful lot. Again, great team,

340
00:21:25,705 --> 00:21:29,461
learned an awful lot about the drugs markets, the drugs, and the whole—

341
00:21:29,493 --> 00:21:33,313
and we were a force drug squad, so we traveled the whole force area dealing

342
00:21:33,345 --> 00:21:36,795
with them. Small unit, but learned an awful lot.

343
00:21:37,180 --> 00:21:40,340
And I was the youngest guy in that team, so I had a lot of

344
00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:43,902
learning to do. These guys were, you know, had 10-plus years as detectives.

345
00:21:44,576 --> 00:21:48,073
What was the most extraordinary or the most powerful thing

346
00:21:48,587 --> 00:21:52,277
that you learned? And then, of course, it must be difficult to

347
00:21:52,277 --> 00:21:56,127
separate what you've learned along a career of 30-plus years, Nick.

348
00:21:56,207 --> 00:21:59,833
So, I'll forgive you if you can't remember. But

349
00:22:00,058 --> 00:22:03,812
was there something at that time in the drug squad, particular time in the

350
00:22:03,812 --> 00:22:07,376
UK, this is, This is what? This is 1980s.

351
00:22:08,082 --> 00:22:11,518
So, not that it's not the case now, but lots of drugs

352
00:22:11,518 --> 00:22:15,179
around, lots of peace, love, and hippiness. What struck

353
00:22:15,292 --> 00:22:18,760
you about the time in the drug squad? The drug squad was a—

354
00:22:19,241 --> 00:22:22,661
it was an eye-opener in the sense of the expanse of the problem

355
00:22:23,095 --> 00:22:26,627
and how much drugs had influenced sort of the society and the

356
00:22:26,627 --> 00:22:29,919
communities we were— I was walking around these areas in

357
00:22:29,919 --> 00:22:33,542
uniform, And to some extent unknown to

358
00:22:33,606 --> 00:22:37,403
what the issues were, you know? Right. And you see that sort of

359
00:22:38,092 --> 00:22:41,826
connection between violence, connection with certainly

360
00:22:41,858 --> 00:22:45,351
domestic abuse in the home, lack of

361
00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:49,021
work, lack of opportunities, and then the drugs use.

362
00:22:49,453 --> 00:22:53,171
You know, you always had alcohol there, but, you know, for me in the drug

363
00:22:53,171 --> 00:22:57,016
squad, it was very much an eye-opener that the impact that drugs were actually

364
00:22:57,016 --> 00:23:00,591
making on people's lives in the community. And that's an

365
00:23:00,591 --> 00:23:04,422
interesting observation or just social commentary because

366
00:23:05,095 --> 00:23:08,927
we know that everybody can get as high and as out there as they want

367
00:23:09,087 --> 00:23:12,405
on alcohol legally. What is it that tips,

368
00:23:13,014 --> 00:23:16,685
do you think, and maybe it's with the benefit of many more years, what

369
00:23:16,701 --> 00:23:19,891
tips somebody from going out and getting completely

370
00:23:20,084 --> 00:23:23,546
plastered on booze, but then deciding to use

371
00:23:23,546 --> 00:23:26,899
drugs? That's such, so wide, Gary, because I see,

372
00:23:27,284 --> 00:23:30,911
and I think it depends on your social environment.

373
00:23:31,409 --> 00:23:34,971
So I've dealt with and engaged with people that survive

374
00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:38,662
solely on drugs and their day-to-day functioning is drugs.

375
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,331
And to some extent, that's their normality. Whereas I've

376
00:23:43,331 --> 00:23:46,846
dealt with people who will use the occasional

377
00:23:46,878 --> 00:23:50,617
drugs, a lot of it. And, you know, generally that whole cocaine

378
00:23:50,745 --> 00:23:54,340
environment. on social events, on parties or weekends and

379
00:23:54,340 --> 00:23:57,372
stuff, and run a normal life during the week.

380
00:23:58,030 --> 00:24:01,705
Right. So the impact is very different. Um, it's

381
00:24:01,705 --> 00:24:05,300
easier to say wealth, but it's not necessarily always wealth,

382
00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:08,990
'cause I've seen some really wealthy people that only function on drugs. So

383
00:24:09,247 --> 00:24:12,954
it, there is no sort of one denominator factor. Yes.

384
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:17,158
I remember when my kids were, we were talking about kids in

385
00:24:17,543 --> 00:24:21,298
schools in North London. And the reality, I'm sure this is the

386
00:24:21,298 --> 00:24:25,020
reality in many other places, the

387
00:24:25,469 --> 00:24:29,239
posher the school, the more drugs there were. So

388
00:24:29,704 --> 00:24:33,426
it wasn't a case of better educated,

389
00:24:33,491 --> 00:24:36,667
therefore more unlikely to do something silly. It was,

390
00:24:37,405 --> 00:24:41,015
I've got access to that money, so why not go out and use it? I

391
00:24:41,015 --> 00:24:44,769
don't know whether you found that. That and affordability.

392
00:24:45,042 --> 00:24:48,705
comes into it, you know, it's often said, what do kids

393
00:24:48,737 --> 00:24:52,320
do? You know, you know, what did we do? And when we were that age,

394
00:24:52,432 --> 00:24:56,112
once you finish school and you're hanging around, there was very few opportunities. You know,

395
00:24:56,128 --> 00:24:59,421
in my day, there were youth centers and things like that, if you chose to

396
00:24:59,421 --> 00:25:02,892
go to them. And, you know, I did. Whereas a lot of people didn't have

397
00:25:02,892 --> 00:25:06,202
anything, just sit around, become bored. And I see that

398
00:25:06,893 --> 00:25:10,572
probably during the drug squad days, more in the smaller rural

399
00:25:10,572 --> 00:25:13,957
environments, kids getting into trouble and not just

400
00:25:13,957 --> 00:25:17,614
necessarily drugs, but just getting into trouble because they haven't got the

401
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:20,821
cinema up the road like you would do in a city or a town.

402
00:25:21,735 --> 00:25:25,070
So I think there's a lot of factors. But yeah, an eye-opening

403
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,903
experience for me at that age. I was in my 20s, you know,

404
00:25:29,031 --> 00:25:32,495
what was I then? Early 20s. Then at some

405
00:25:32,495 --> 00:25:36,248
stage you transition. And

406
00:25:36,248 --> 00:25:39,553
is it a gradual one? to UC work, which

407
00:25:39,938 --> 00:25:43,309
has a whole— for me, as somebody now that's just

408
00:25:43,325 --> 00:25:46,937
spoken to people like you over the last year or so, how

409
00:25:47,547 --> 00:25:50,612
just mind-altering that experience can be. So,

410
00:25:51,255 --> 00:25:55,011
was it again someone said, Nick, you would be brilliant as a UC

411
00:25:55,091 --> 00:25:58,510
officer? So, I moved from the drug squad to what they used to have then

412
00:25:58,558 --> 00:26:02,362
in the regional crime squads. I don't know if you remember those. They were sort

413
00:26:02,410 --> 00:26:06,198
of cross-border investigation teams. Ah, I see. Okay. I

414
00:26:06,198 --> 00:26:09,917
moved across to there for the south sort of

415
00:26:10,029 --> 00:26:13,796
region, and we were just doing similar

416
00:26:13,876 --> 00:26:17,291
serious organized crime, but we had all the bells and whistles in those days.

417
00:26:17,563 --> 00:26:20,978
So, it was great. We were traveling across all boundaries and working,

418
00:26:21,972 --> 00:26:25,450
and they housed the undercover world in those days. And

419
00:26:25,899 --> 00:26:29,393
I got pulled in, and it was similar sort of things. You should be doing

420
00:26:29,425 --> 00:26:32,960
this. And I'd only been there a few months, I

421
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,640
enjoyed being a detective. I enjoyed doing all this stuff, you know? And I

422
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,660
go, well, I'll think about it. You know, I've got a long career here. I'm

423
00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:43,500
still in my, you know, still in my 20s then. And, um, oh, it takes

424
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:47,280
years, was the advice. Um, and actually, my boss

425
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,840
at the time, Neil, um, I'm actually having lunch with him, so I have

426
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,640
forgiven him. Um, I'm having lunch with him on Thursday. Neil

427
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,220
was the boss, and he called, and he was the one who called me, and

428
00:26:57,220 --> 00:27:00,660
he went, it'll take at least 18 months to 2 years before you even get

429
00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:04,497
on a the selection process. Fill the form in. So I filled

430
00:27:04,497 --> 00:27:07,525
the form in. That was August, around August.

431
00:27:08,567 --> 00:27:11,484
Um, I was on the course in January. Um,

432
00:27:12,734 --> 00:27:16,115
and I was right head over, but I loved it. It was the— well, I

433
00:27:16,115 --> 00:27:19,031
didn't love the course. The course was probably the worst thing I ever did. But—

434
00:27:19,544 --> 00:27:22,733
Why? It's tough. It's mentally,

435
00:27:23,551 --> 00:27:27,381
mainly mentally, but physically, but mainly mentally tough. Can you

436
00:27:27,478 --> 00:27:30,944
give me a flavor without blowing it, without both you and I having to be

437
00:27:30,944 --> 00:27:34,716
shot at dawn? Yeah, we're very protective of it because I later

438
00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:37,990
went on to support the training in that. Yeah. Okay.

439
00:27:38,487 --> 00:27:42,291
Toughness is about— it's not a course, it's not a training course, it's

440
00:27:42,563 --> 00:27:45,821
an assessment course. Basically, you're put through scenario after

441
00:27:45,853 --> 00:27:49,288
scenario and they're testing whether you can handle it.

442
00:27:49,866 --> 00:27:52,995
And I think for me, going through it

443
00:27:53,493 --> 00:27:57,264
There's lots of sleep deprivation because that's just a way to

444
00:27:57,585 --> 00:28:01,068
get people to work under pressure. Yeah. You're put into

445
00:28:01,373 --> 00:28:05,129
some very difficult situations. But I think that the key

446
00:28:05,129 --> 00:28:08,419
thing is you're so involved that the—

447
00:28:08,419 --> 00:28:12,046
it's not an exercise, it becomes reality in some sense because

448
00:28:12,656 --> 00:28:16,251
all the role players are from that world. Yeah.

449
00:28:16,443 --> 00:28:19,686
But they're not giving you any breaks, in other words. And I

450
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,900
remember people are dropping. The pass rate

451
00:28:23,591 --> 00:28:26,210
was, I think in those days, around 25%.

452
00:28:27,672 --> 00:28:31,143
And so there were people on the course, it's not, they only run a few

453
00:28:31,143 --> 00:28:34,758
courses a year and they were dropping like flies. I didn't have a

454
00:28:34,758 --> 00:28:38,020
clue whether I was doing well or not doing well,

455
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:41,812
because literally you come back into a classroom and there'll be one or two other

456
00:28:41,812 --> 00:28:45,443
people not with you and they'd literally be told to go home. Was there an

457
00:28:45,443 --> 00:28:48,898
event like, of course, you can't help but compare it to TV

458
00:28:48,898 --> 00:28:52,079
programs where you get thrown into the back of a van

459
00:28:52,738 --> 00:28:56,177
and somebody says, your cover's been blown,

460
00:28:56,771 --> 00:29:00,338
now try and force you to give up your

461
00:29:00,451 --> 00:29:03,600
cover, and you've just got to try and withstand it?

462
00:29:04,066 --> 00:29:07,826
Yes, that's sort of part of the scenarios they do. It is

463
00:29:08,485 --> 00:29:12,100
pressure point testing to where your weak

464
00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:15,889
points are, if that's right. I suppose my character, I didn't know

465
00:29:15,905 --> 00:29:19,662
if I was the right fit because you don't, like I say,

466
00:29:19,726 --> 00:29:23,243
you don't get any feedback. You don't get any, um, you're doing all

467
00:29:23,275 --> 00:29:26,695
right type of conversation. It's just relentless. It was only

468
00:29:26,727 --> 00:29:29,890
until the final, uh, we finish on a

469
00:29:29,938 --> 00:29:33,519
Thursday and you get called in and you're waiting and literally

470
00:29:33,551 --> 00:29:37,307
people coming in, they'd been here weeks. And

471
00:29:37,323 --> 00:29:40,898
you go, well, you got this far, so it'd be great. And I was

472
00:29:41,010 --> 00:29:44,569
walking in, people going into the room and not coming back.

473
00:29:45,178 --> 00:29:48,865
And some people who came back had passed and some people

474
00:29:48,945 --> 00:29:52,520
we didn't see again. So was there one, again, with

475
00:29:52,616 --> 00:29:56,367
usual kind of making sure we don't give away the crown

476
00:29:56,463 --> 00:30:00,102
jewels, was there one endurance test where

477
00:30:01,048 --> 00:30:04,574
you were sitting there thinking, I can't bloody well hack

478
00:30:04,654 --> 00:30:08,261
this. It's just too much. If that's what life is about,

479
00:30:08,406 --> 00:30:11,989
not really going to be able to do this? No, I think when I

480
00:30:12,037 --> 00:30:15,797
put my mind to something, uh, that's it. I, you know, I don't do

481
00:30:15,797 --> 00:30:18,930
things half. Um, you know, when I was there, I'm going on the courts, that's

482
00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:22,706
it. I'm gonna give it all. And, um, you can opt to

483
00:30:22,706 --> 00:30:25,791
leave, and people do. Um, the pressure is too much

484
00:30:26,563 --> 00:30:30,403
and you just go, I need to get out. And I said, I'm not doing

485
00:30:30,499 --> 00:30:33,633
that. Oh, they'll have to kick me out. Um, I'm gonna take it as far

486
00:30:33,633 --> 00:30:37,418
as I can. If I fit the requirements, I do. If I don't, you

487
00:30:37,418 --> 00:30:40,705
know, at least I gave it my best. Where do you take that stress though?

488
00:30:40,961 --> 00:30:44,023
I mean, it's a— how long a course did you say? It's 40— That's

489
00:30:44,232 --> 00:30:47,968
confidential, but it's a few weeks. Yeah. But where do you as an

490
00:30:48,064 --> 00:30:51,511
individual take that stress? Do they

491
00:30:51,527 --> 00:30:55,375
assign you a buddy that you can— no, you're on your own, Jack.

492
00:30:55,856 --> 00:30:59,527
Yeah. I mean, leading up to this, remember, Gary, we had a

493
00:30:59,527 --> 00:31:03,199
load of different assessments, interviews, psychological testing.

494
00:31:03,777 --> 00:31:07,263
lots of other processes even before you get on the course. And so

495
00:31:08,372 --> 00:31:11,826
they probably sifted out a lot of people through that

496
00:31:11,826 --> 00:31:15,195
process. And then by the time you're there, you know, I, I

497
00:31:15,535 --> 00:31:19,266
remember being on with guys who I thought were really good, you

498
00:31:19,266 --> 00:31:23,051
know, and I thought, and they're, they're getting dropped. And it's a mind game as

499
00:31:23,068 --> 00:31:26,704
well, you know. They, you just, you— I

500
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,403
walked into the room, as I said, and They actually said,

501
00:31:30,548 --> 00:31:34,252
we're not sure. And I was, okay. And he said, he's too calm.

502
00:31:34,413 --> 00:31:38,181
And I am a calm kind of person. And

503
00:31:38,261 --> 00:31:41,966
he said, you've got everything, but you don't get rattled.

504
00:31:42,495 --> 00:31:46,055
And I never have got rattled really. Well, my

505
00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:49,872
wife and family and friends might argue with that, but I'm

506
00:31:49,888 --> 00:31:53,143
generally a calm person. Yeah. But underneath

507
00:31:53,657 --> 00:31:57,507
it's going crazy, you know? But I passed, and that was my

508
00:31:57,507 --> 00:32:01,101
character. It just tended to be I'm all through my undercover

509
00:32:01,101 --> 00:32:04,856
world. Do you remember the first time you were flying

510
00:32:04,969 --> 00:32:08,210
solo and you were in a real life, not in a

511
00:32:08,403 --> 00:32:12,174
simulated, but a real life UC? Do you remember the first one you

512
00:32:12,174 --> 00:32:15,977
did and what were the emotions going through your brain at the time?

513
00:32:16,908 --> 00:32:20,695
So what generally happens is after the

514
00:32:20,695 --> 00:32:24,464
course, there's a progress Now, you do little

515
00:32:24,464 --> 00:32:27,750
jobs, you support other experienced UCs,

516
00:32:28,536 --> 00:32:32,238
and it's a growth process. You shouldn't be thrown into the

517
00:32:32,238 --> 00:32:36,021
deep end because the learning still exists.

518
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:39,916
And I had a couple of small parts in the first,

519
00:32:40,012 --> 00:32:43,539
literally in the first month of coming back off the course, which I

520
00:32:43,619 --> 00:32:47,225
didn't expect. And then being very careful, then I

521
00:32:47,289 --> 00:32:50,479
got asked to go and help a couple of guys who were in an infiltration.

522
00:32:51,057 --> 00:32:54,652
Okay. And so, I went up there and

523
00:32:55,230 --> 00:32:59,017
actually met the targets with them, and they liked me and wanted to see

524
00:32:59,017 --> 00:33:02,645
more of me. So, I ended up being thrown into the deep end, into this

525
00:33:02,709 --> 00:33:06,352
operation, which was, went on for quite a few months. But the other

526
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,723
2 UCs were good, seasoned detectives, you know, and I

527
00:33:10,188 --> 00:33:13,799
absorbed their, what they were doing. I learned so much from them, and they were

528
00:33:13,864 --> 00:33:17,652
really great mentors. So, in a way, Although it was thrown into

529
00:33:17,652 --> 00:33:21,489
the deep end, I had a good net around me, and we ran that

530
00:33:21,489 --> 00:33:24,685
job on and off for about a year. Did you never think,

531
00:33:25,648 --> 00:33:29,437
oh, that's it, I'm blown, I'm never walking out of this alive? Did you

532
00:33:29,437 --> 00:33:33,066
ever have that kind of feeling? Not on that operation,

533
00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:36,904
but yeah. I mean, there's times when you get accused of being a cop,

534
00:33:37,289 --> 00:33:40,998
get threatened, but that's where your, I suppose, training, that's where it

535
00:33:41,239 --> 00:33:44,176
all kicks in. You know, this is what we do. And

536
00:33:45,235 --> 00:33:48,686
I've had numerous times people accuse me of being a cop.

537
00:33:49,568 --> 00:33:53,099
You remember, the type of criminals we're dealing with aren't generally

538
00:33:53,099 --> 00:33:56,854
street dealers. They are seasoned organized criminals.

539
00:33:57,432 --> 00:34:01,058
I see. And they'd been doing this for a long time. And generally, the people

540
00:34:01,058 --> 00:34:04,412
around them have been around them for a long time. I think some of them

541
00:34:04,589 --> 00:34:07,461
probably went to school with them. In fact, a lot of the guys we dealt

542
00:34:07,461 --> 00:34:11,090
with, they went to school with each other. And then all of a sudden, someone

543
00:34:11,090 --> 00:34:14,930
out of the blue sort of arrives on the scene. So, there's always an

544
00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:18,770
element of suspicion, you know, and you've got to win them over. You've

545
00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:21,950
got to, you know, overcome that. But there's always times that you're going to be

546
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:25,570
accused, threatened. I've had guns pointed at me. I've had all sorts of things

547
00:34:25,570 --> 00:34:28,850
pointed at me, and it's— Tell us about that. Tell us about the first time

548
00:34:28,850 --> 00:34:32,670
somebody pointed what you believed was a loaded gun at you. God, you put

549
00:34:32,670 --> 00:34:36,390
me on the spot, Gary. So, I'd been doing a long-term infiltration. I

550
00:34:36,390 --> 00:34:40,009
was one of the earlier people that were— got

551
00:34:40,009 --> 00:34:43,717
involved in community infiltration. So infiltrations happen, you

552
00:34:43,717 --> 00:34:47,539
infiltrate a crime group. But at that time, there was

553
00:34:47,812 --> 00:34:51,215
parts of the country that there was so much going on,

554
00:34:51,906 --> 00:34:55,245
the intelligence picture wasn't great. And so I was

555
00:34:55,277 --> 00:34:58,681
deployed into the city, find out who's doing what,

556
00:34:59,356 --> 00:35:02,824
and actually build an intelligence picture of going, right,

557
00:35:03,867 --> 00:35:07,449
you can ignore these people. Right. We need to concentrate on this. So that was

558
00:35:07,465 --> 00:35:10,902
the background. And they were very keen, they were eager, because

559
00:35:10,998 --> 00:35:14,034
there'd been a lot of trouble in that region.

560
00:35:15,110 --> 00:35:18,773
And so I went into there and I didn't do anything

561
00:35:18,949 --> 00:35:22,788
for literally 6 months. And I was getting pressure from the organization saying,

562
00:35:23,222 --> 00:35:26,515
and I went, no, they need to come to me. And, you know,

563
00:35:27,141 --> 00:35:30,627
I had a persona. I looked very different, Gary.

564
00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:34,587
And I look like a criminal in many ways than others.

565
00:35:35,484 --> 00:35:39,315
And eventually they'll come to me. And it took about 6 months.

566
00:35:39,572 --> 00:35:43,034
And during that earlier stage, they came over,

567
00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:46,849
started chatting in bars, pubs, wherever we were, nightclubs,

568
00:35:47,747 --> 00:35:51,497
and would say, come, let's have a drink. And I avoided them. And I went,

569
00:35:51,514 --> 00:35:55,152
yeah, I will, and never turned up. And eventually, after 6 months, they

570
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,444
literally went, why don't you want to come and have a beer with us? And

571
00:35:57,621 --> 00:36:01,410
so, All right, I will. 2, 3 years down the road,

572
00:36:01,796 --> 00:36:05,586
that's what saved me. Because I'm in this middle of nowhere,

573
00:36:06,229 --> 00:36:09,714
a few of the guys have turned up. We've been like, we've been working

574
00:36:09,827 --> 00:36:13,023
for a couple of years now that I thought trusted me.

575
00:36:14,388 --> 00:36:18,227
And, um, one of them comes up and says, you know, we think this is

576
00:36:18,323 --> 00:36:21,825
who you are. And, um, and I was sort of like, I'm

577
00:36:22,274 --> 00:36:26,096
in my persona at that time. was quite an angry, strong

578
00:36:26,128 --> 00:36:29,950
guy, right? And, and I literally went, I went, who's saying

579
00:36:30,046 --> 00:36:33,819
this? Which one of you is saying this? And then there's

580
00:36:33,819 --> 00:36:37,576
all a little bit of, um, well, yeah, someone's saying this, and rumors

581
00:36:37,689 --> 00:36:40,547
and everything else. And I went, you need to tell me who's saying this,

582
00:36:41,606 --> 00:36:45,315
because remember, I didn't come looking for you. You fuckers came

583
00:36:45,315 --> 00:36:49,056
looking for me. And that light bulb moment

584
00:36:49,105 --> 00:36:52,844
in their heads of 2 years ago was, he's right,

585
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:56,535
he never, he never came to us. We were like, you know,

586
00:36:56,776 --> 00:37:00,531
because I was in their eyes a criminal. And then they started

587
00:37:00,563 --> 00:37:03,981
pointing fingers at each other, who said what, and eventually

588
00:37:04,495 --> 00:37:07,785
a huge big apology, hugs and

589
00:37:08,090 --> 00:37:11,797
drinks. And, and I went, you can't be doing this. But was that literally a

590
00:37:11,797 --> 00:37:15,343
gun in your head? Yes. This is who we believe you are. Yeah.

591
00:37:15,407 --> 00:37:18,538
Convince us otherwise. Yeah. Wow.

592
00:37:19,742 --> 00:37:23,322
So that's where your, as you say, your training kicks in.

593
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:27,353
But also, do you start saying a few Hail Marys? Do you

594
00:37:27,353 --> 00:37:30,708
actually think this could be your last breath on the earth, or you always

595
00:37:31,062 --> 00:37:34,145
have confidence that you're going to get out of it? Well, there's only 2 ways

596
00:37:34,257 --> 00:37:38,014
out of it, Gary, and there's, there's no worry, no point worrying about

597
00:37:38,111 --> 00:37:40,680
what might be the worst-case scenario. It's going to happen if it's going to happen.

598
00:37:41,499 --> 00:37:45,268
And as, and I think people, my wife will especially say

599
00:37:45,268 --> 00:37:49,020
that. She always says I don't have any fear. Well, I do, but I

600
00:37:49,020 --> 00:37:52,307
don't see fear in the same way as other people do. 'Cause I see it

601
00:37:52,307 --> 00:37:56,076
as a risk and fear is an emotion. Risk is, you

602
00:37:56,076 --> 00:37:59,235
can calculate risk, you can look at it, you can mitigate it, you can do

603
00:37:59,299 --> 00:38:03,067
things. And so people say, say, oh, you

604
00:38:03,067 --> 00:38:06,306
never look scared. And I don't, but it doesn't mean I don't feel scared.

605
00:38:06,996 --> 00:38:10,830
It's just I process it differently. And And, you know, those sort of things have

606
00:38:10,830 --> 00:38:14,586
happened to me over years and years. And you do become

607
00:38:14,634 --> 00:38:18,406
a bit resilient. But, you know, the training is

608
00:38:18,471 --> 00:38:22,002
good and that's why it's so tough. And that's why I

609
00:38:22,002 --> 00:38:25,501
remember Neil was on your podcast. And that was the

610
00:38:25,534 --> 00:38:29,354
era, you know, and we made it particularly tough because

611
00:38:29,547 --> 00:38:32,195
people are going to be put in that position and they've got to come out

612
00:38:32,195 --> 00:38:35,775
alive. And these were people that, because I don't know whether

613
00:38:36,032 --> 00:38:38,167
the characters as it were,

614
00:38:39,324 --> 00:38:43,084
increase in their intensity of criminality? So, will a gang

615
00:38:43,196 --> 00:38:46,442
that is involved in drug supply, will they

616
00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:50,651
inevitably be the kind of people that will kill as well? Or do they have

617
00:38:50,651 --> 00:38:54,315
their own threshold of criminality that

618
00:38:54,363 --> 00:38:57,898
they just don't cross? That would seem— I certainly looked at it on TV.

619
00:38:58,460 --> 00:39:01,513
You would say that the top end are happy to kill people.

620
00:39:02,477 --> 00:39:06,285
In my experience, it's not. It's the rogue street guys who are

621
00:39:06,285 --> 00:39:08,662
more likely to kill you, you know, than

622
00:39:10,312 --> 00:39:13,915
a top-end international drug smuggler or arms dealer.

623
00:39:14,510 --> 00:39:18,278
Because a number of reasons is they didn't

624
00:39:18,294 --> 00:39:20,999
get to the top of their tree without being smart.

625
00:39:22,210 --> 00:39:25,810
And secondly, they've got a lot to lose if it

626
00:39:25,843 --> 00:39:29,364
goes wrong and they get caught. Those are just 2

627
00:39:29,479 --> 00:39:33,303
factors, whereas a street dealer-cum-gang

628
00:39:33,992 --> 00:39:37,567
lad. It's either he doesn't have the awareness that this is

629
00:39:37,727 --> 00:39:41,494
going to turn bad on him, and secondly, he's

630
00:39:41,494 --> 00:39:44,795
got to show that he can hold his own. And that macho

631
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:49,027
ego type, I run the street, and this is how I

632
00:39:49,027 --> 00:39:52,489
deal with it. So— It's more unpredictable. Yeah. You

633
00:39:52,553 --> 00:39:56,336
can't necessarily put the two together

634
00:39:56,336 --> 00:39:59,958
and go, okay, we'll be safer here because they're a low-level dealer. But

635
00:40:00,023 --> 00:40:03,605
these guys that you were talking about just now would have

636
00:40:03,637 --> 00:40:07,171
no qualms? Did you actually know they'd ever killed somebody before, or no

637
00:40:07,316 --> 00:40:10,689
idea? At that point, they'd all been in prison for

638
00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:14,368
different various types. And the actual guy who was

639
00:40:14,705 --> 00:40:18,159
holding the gun had been in prison for attempted murder

640
00:40:18,721 --> 00:40:21,918
and been out. And so, I wasn't in any

641
00:40:22,737 --> 00:40:26,207
doubt that they would pull that trigger if I didn't get out of this right

642
00:40:26,207 --> 00:40:29,900
or I didn't give them the right answers. Yeah. But that actually strengthened my

643
00:40:29,965 --> 00:40:33,112
position in the crime group because after that happened,

644
00:40:33,979 --> 00:40:37,608
no one was gonna question my loyalty and no one was gonna question my,

645
00:40:38,073 --> 00:40:41,333
uh, who I was. And that sort of springboarded us into

646
00:40:41,686 --> 00:40:44,833
bigger and greater results, if I, if I can say that. Yeah.

647
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:48,462
And one thing again that always fascinates the

648
00:40:48,847 --> 00:40:52,139
non-police officer or, or someone involved in the

649
00:40:52,139 --> 00:40:55,753
criminal justice system is how does a

650
00:40:56,540 --> 00:40:59,335
UC draw that line between

651
00:40:59,865 --> 00:41:03,126
facilitating a crime, assisting it,

652
00:41:03,222 --> 00:41:06,547
abetting it? How do you, without again

653
00:41:06,612 --> 00:41:10,322
exposing ourselves, how do you judge whether you're going to come

654
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:14,017
up and someone says, sorry, Nick, you should never have done

655
00:41:14,065 --> 00:41:17,487
that. We're going to do you with the criminals. Yeah, no,

656
00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:21,341
absolutely. And that's where, if I say there is training, The

657
00:41:21,358 --> 00:41:24,585
agent provocateur element is the key. You know,

658
00:41:25,789 --> 00:41:29,306
you can't, as an undercover officer, create a crime that's not already

659
00:41:29,306 --> 00:41:32,276
existing. Right. So, you can

660
00:41:32,292 --> 00:41:35,503
participate in criminality if you're authorized to do so.

661
00:41:36,387 --> 00:41:39,999
And again, that's— you need to be authorized, but you can't create a crime.

662
00:41:40,385 --> 00:41:42,665
You know, I can't come to you, Gary, and say, can you go and buy

663
00:41:42,665 --> 00:41:46,117
me some coke? And it was the first time you've ever done it.

664
00:41:47,450 --> 00:41:51,143
And that kind of divide,

665
00:41:51,383 --> 00:41:54,980
agent provocateur, is still live and

666
00:41:55,494 --> 00:41:59,043
kicking today. That's the line, and it's all down to

667
00:41:59,412 --> 00:42:03,121
a whole bunch of circumstances as to whether or not

668
00:42:03,121 --> 00:42:06,284
you've done more than you needed to do. It's the defense's

669
00:42:06,653 --> 00:42:10,202
first call, oh, agent provocateur. But

670
00:42:10,973 --> 00:42:14,489
as an undercover officer, and when you're working in the intelligence world,

671
00:42:15,163 --> 00:42:18,468
You box all that off before you even go to the arrest, because

672
00:42:18,998 --> 00:42:21,725
you know that's going to be the first defense. And so you need to make

673
00:42:21,725 --> 00:42:25,479
sure the evidence and the intelligence shows that those crimes were being

674
00:42:25,511 --> 00:42:29,346
committed prior to us getting involved. And there's methods and

675
00:42:29,346 --> 00:42:32,811
ways we do that. And just rolling the tape forward for this

676
00:42:32,811 --> 00:42:36,661
particular event, when you actually took the group

677
00:42:36,661 --> 00:42:40,127
down, again, do you get that I'm

678
00:42:40,335 --> 00:42:43,961
giving evidence behind a curtain kind of thing, or?

679
00:42:44,282 --> 00:42:47,689
Do you get that angry young man, I'm going to get you,

680
00:42:48,524 --> 00:42:52,284
blah, blah, blah? How did that end up? That one, because

681
00:42:52,381 --> 00:42:55,771
it was an intelligence infiltration, I stepped away

682
00:42:55,932 --> 00:42:59,595
before any arrests were made. So, I had an exit plan

683
00:42:59,884 --> 00:43:03,660
set up before we started. So, as the operation was

684
00:43:03,725 --> 00:43:07,324
coming to a conclusion, I was starting to

685
00:43:07,324 --> 00:43:11,114
make the moves about moving away and new New paths, new

686
00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:14,801
sort of chapter in my life type conversation. And

687
00:43:14,801 --> 00:43:18,392
soon after, some time after I moved away, and the

688
00:43:18,392 --> 00:43:21,774
actual activity, the police activity, the overt

689
00:43:21,774 --> 00:43:25,606
activity took place. But don't— these guys are not

690
00:43:25,606 --> 00:43:29,213
stupid. Well, some of them are, but a lot of them aren't. And they kind

691
00:43:29,213 --> 00:43:33,060
of say, hold on, there's Bill, Fred, John, and Stephen are

692
00:43:33,060 --> 00:43:36,380
in the nick with me. Where's that other chap gone? Yeah,

693
00:43:36,525 --> 00:43:39,915
well, it was done well, put it that way. Because— Put it that way.

694
00:43:40,364 --> 00:43:43,690
Yeah, because they wanted to maintain my

695
00:43:44,702 --> 00:43:48,381
legend for further deployments. So there's methodology in

696
00:43:48,477 --> 00:43:52,317
that, Gary, but it worked. And talking about legends, do you

697
00:43:52,333 --> 00:43:56,012
have any idea, is it like you, you've taken on more legends than you

698
00:43:56,124 --> 00:43:59,659
can remember, or are they really very— because of the

699
00:43:59,659 --> 00:44:03,353
time it takes to embrace it and to live it? Like, I

700
00:44:03,353 --> 00:44:07,046
only did 3 legends in my UC career. No, I was really

701
00:44:07,046 --> 00:44:10,627
busy, partly because of the way I looked, you know, in, in

702
00:44:10,659 --> 00:44:14,432
relative terms, an Indian undercover

703
00:44:14,432 --> 00:44:17,868
officer, you know, there wasn't as many Indian

704
00:44:17,868 --> 00:44:20,999
undercover officers as there were white guys, right?

705
00:44:21,513 --> 00:44:25,093
So I was busy. And so I had a number of different

706
00:44:25,093 --> 00:44:28,481
legends, I had a number of different operations running at the same time.

707
00:44:29,139 --> 00:44:32,955
So you mean you have to swap? You had Legend 1 and

708
00:44:32,971 --> 00:44:36,564
then suddenly the next day you're there with a completely different persona?

709
00:44:37,382 --> 00:44:40,316
Yeah, because some of the jobs, you know, they, they're long-running. You don't need to

710
00:44:40,348 --> 00:44:43,524
be there 24/7. You know, the longest one I did was

711
00:44:43,957 --> 00:44:47,597
3 years and that was full-time. I lived it, I didn't come

712
00:44:47,629 --> 00:44:51,414
home and everything else. And the other jobs are a lot shorter, you know.

713
00:44:51,895 --> 00:44:55,360
Fascinating, fascinating. And In

714
00:44:55,424 --> 00:44:58,395
terms of how do you deal with the

715
00:44:59,038 --> 00:45:02,588
pressure of those kind of things? You can't go home.

716
00:45:03,038 --> 00:45:06,346
I imagine it's pretty dangerous to go on a telephone, get in a

717
00:45:06,346 --> 00:45:09,848
telephone or telephone box and call anyone.

718
00:45:10,266 --> 00:45:14,040
You're under scrutiny 24/7. How do you deal with

719
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,671
that? That's just who you are, is it? No, you learn and it's not easy.

720
00:45:18,056 --> 00:45:21,846
It is not easy. So in that particular operation, and you're

721
00:45:21,846 --> 00:45:25,424
part of the crime group, or you're getting involved in the crime group. You're living

722
00:45:25,456 --> 00:45:29,179
their lives. You're doing similar things to what they're doing. But

723
00:45:29,292 --> 00:45:32,790
I did get home, you know, every few months. I would make sure I

724
00:45:32,838 --> 00:45:35,727
got— had a sort of a plan that's saying I was going to be out

725
00:45:35,727 --> 00:45:39,145
the city. Right. And, you know, guys,

726
00:45:39,498 --> 00:45:43,125
really good mentors, good experienced UCs, used to— we used to

727
00:45:43,269 --> 00:45:46,768
talk, you know, about your mental state, how you need to do things

728
00:45:46,784 --> 00:45:50,572
differently. And one piece of advice, which I used to

729
00:45:50,572 --> 00:45:54,344
do all the time, is we wouldn't go straight home because no

730
00:45:54,344 --> 00:45:57,859
one knew who we were. Even the local— oh, well, local police

731
00:45:57,875 --> 00:46:01,487
wouldn't know who we are. So, you know, we would be

732
00:46:01,487 --> 00:46:05,211
targets of law enforcement as well. So, we had to

733
00:46:05,211 --> 00:46:08,694
make sure we were clean before we brought everything back to the house. So,

734
00:46:09,593 --> 00:46:13,333
what would mean take a 3-hour journey sometimes could take 5, 6 hours, 'cause

735
00:46:13,429 --> 00:46:16,607
you need to make sure you're not being followed. So, but in that

736
00:46:16,655 --> 00:46:20,394
process, I, well, piece of advice I was given, which

737
00:46:20,506 --> 00:46:23,892
I took, um, and it worked for me, was I'm in nightclubs,

738
00:46:24,261 --> 00:46:28,015
busy bars, and chaos all around, loud music. I

739
00:46:28,048 --> 00:46:30,631
used to play classical music on the drive down in my car.

740
00:46:31,883 --> 00:46:35,589
And at one point when it was all clear, I would make sure I

741
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:38,526
stopped, cleaned myself up, changed my clothes,

742
00:46:39,585 --> 00:46:43,179
and went, went back into my normal world.

743
00:46:43,918 --> 00:46:47,707
Cleansed, if that made sense. Yeah, it does. Makes perfect sense. You had

744
00:46:47,707 --> 00:46:51,400
certain, as it were, kit

745
00:46:51,882 --> 00:46:55,334
that defined the real you and you

746
00:46:55,334 --> 00:46:58,882
just needed that. It's like putting on a hat or a raincoat.

747
00:46:59,252 --> 00:47:02,463
Ah, that's my normal raincoat. Yeah. And

748
00:47:03,105 --> 00:47:06,284
that helped. It's not the cure, but

749
00:47:06,895 --> 00:47:10,152
you need to have that line between the two. You know, it was difficult because

750
00:47:10,489 --> 00:47:14,208
very few people knew where I was, what I was doing. I, I literally disappeared

751
00:47:14,432 --> 00:47:17,654
from my home force. And,

752
00:47:18,664 --> 00:47:22,271
you know, my friends, my close friends, and I have a very small group of

753
00:47:22,287 --> 00:47:25,861
close friends, certainly at that time, knew I was doing something

754
00:47:26,374 --> 00:47:29,420
that wasn't spoken about, didn't actually know where or what,

755
00:47:30,061 --> 00:47:33,893
but available for a beer when I was back, and which

756
00:47:33,909 --> 00:47:37,695
wasn't very often. Right. Yeah. And what would you

757
00:47:37,695 --> 00:47:41,388
say now to the young Nick Shah? You are the

758
00:47:41,597 --> 00:47:45,435
Neil, or whoever it is you're seeing for lunch, who was the one that

759
00:47:45,451 --> 00:47:49,128
guided you. What would you say tomorrow if you

760
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,387
were back in the force to a young Nick Shah who was saying, do you

761
00:47:52,387 --> 00:47:56,225
know what, they're telling me, uh, Nick, that I could be really good?

762
00:47:56,626 --> 00:48:00,159
Would you warn them off, or would you say, go with the force, my friend?

763
00:48:01,010 --> 00:48:04,540
Well, I hope Neil's not going to watch this because I tease him now every

764
00:48:04,556 --> 00:48:07,750
time I see him about how he pushed me and how terrible it was and

765
00:48:08,264 --> 00:48:11,923
traumatic. But actually, I loved it. I loved it. It taught me so

766
00:48:11,939 --> 00:48:14,812
much. I thought I was a good detective

767
00:48:15,326 --> 00:48:18,905
before, but when you actually live that world involved

768
00:48:19,162 --> 00:48:22,789
and, you know, in that criminal environment, you

769
00:48:22,949 --> 00:48:26,769
learn so much about criminality. You learn so much about criminals. And

770
00:48:27,122 --> 00:48:30,731
That made me a better detective, undoubtedly, as I went on in the

771
00:48:31,052 --> 00:48:34,885
future. It also made me a different type of person, you know?

772
00:48:35,045 --> 00:48:38,622
I wasn't that shy kid walking the streets in that

773
00:48:38,686 --> 00:48:42,407
town all those years ago, and now I became a different character. So,

774
00:48:42,423 --> 00:48:46,160
I guess the answer is you would say, go for it. If that's what your

775
00:48:46,192 --> 00:48:49,833
heart wants to do, go for it. Go for it. But there

776
00:48:49,881 --> 00:48:53,346
are all the emotional, mental, and

777
00:48:53,442 --> 00:48:57,149
stress elements. You need to be aware of that. That's, you know, this is not

778
00:48:57,277 --> 00:49:01,115
a, it's not a game. But also, you know, domestically it

779
00:49:01,115 --> 00:49:04,792
has a huge impact. For nearly 10 years, you know, I was

780
00:49:05,129 --> 00:49:08,854
on and off hardly. Absolutely. So, so what

781
00:49:08,854 --> 00:49:11,825
would you say to that young Nick Shah? And he said, okay,

782
00:49:12,611 --> 00:49:16,160
big Nick, what was the price you paid? You look like a completely

783
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,917
normal dude. You know, don't pull my leg. What was the price

784
00:49:19,917 --> 00:49:23,751
you paid for that work? Or what did your family— what was the price

785
00:49:23,751 --> 00:49:27,199
your family paid for you being in that work? Not seeing me,

786
00:49:27,696 --> 00:49:31,400
not being about, um, not getting promoted,

787
00:49:31,929 --> 00:49:35,505
um, because when you go in there, you, you know, there's—

788
00:49:36,179 --> 00:49:39,690
you're just in that world. Um, so I didn't get promoted

789
00:49:39,963 --> 00:49:43,571
until after I left many years later. But the isolation, and

790
00:49:44,453 --> 00:49:47,788
I missed so many events, you know, birthdays, parties,

791
00:49:48,446 --> 00:49:52,139
weddings. You know, at that time, although I knew my wife, I wasn't— we

792
00:49:52,155 --> 00:49:55,286
weren't married. And, um, she was used to my

793
00:49:55,928 --> 00:49:59,477
absences, let's put it that way, for many years. So when we did get

794
00:49:59,477 --> 00:50:02,929
married, I moved on to another job which took me away a lot.

795
00:50:03,459 --> 00:50:07,280
Um, so to her it was, this is what he does. But

796
00:50:07,489 --> 00:50:11,118
it takes a special kind of person to, um, accept that. You know,

797
00:50:11,327 --> 00:50:15,163
the amount of birth— my— we had kids when in the other role that I

798
00:50:15,195 --> 00:50:18,341
played later on, and I was absent.

799
00:50:19,031 --> 00:50:22,417
Okay. Let me be really wicked, but in a pleasant way and say,

800
00:50:22,899 --> 00:50:26,718
if I had your kids and your wife in

801
00:50:26,751 --> 00:50:29,976
the next room, Graham Norton style, and I said, right, come on in now,

802
00:50:30,522 --> 00:50:34,229
would they say it was worth it? Or would they say they and you

803
00:50:34,374 --> 00:50:37,792
paid too high a price? That's a tough one.

804
00:50:38,883 --> 00:50:42,510
I think they got used to it. And that's partly— there's a further

805
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:46,154
story maybe for the future, but I was working on the anti-kidnap

806
00:50:46,154 --> 00:50:49,893
unit. And yeah, I haven't even mentioned that, so I've got to say something about

807
00:50:49,957 --> 00:50:53,472
that before you leave. Fast forward many years later, and I'm on the

808
00:50:53,472 --> 00:50:57,260
anti-kidnap unit. We're dealing with kidnaps all over the world, and with

809
00:50:57,549 --> 00:51:01,192
kids then, and we're married. And, um, my kids never knew anything

810
00:51:01,481 --> 00:51:05,220
of what I did. They knew nothing about my UC world or my, um,

811
00:51:05,413 --> 00:51:09,136
kidnap world. They were, must have been about 6, 7, 8.

812
00:51:09,521 --> 00:51:13,050
And it was only until many years later near my retirement

813
00:51:13,291 --> 00:51:16,387
that it came out because of certain things, um, you know,

814
00:51:17,141 --> 00:51:20,318
coming to the end of my service and, um, getting some awards

815
00:51:21,233 --> 00:51:24,602
that I had to sit them down and tell them. So they became so used

816
00:51:24,602 --> 00:51:28,051
to dad's always away, you know. Yeah. Sarah worked

817
00:51:28,356 --> 00:51:32,046
and she juggled, um, both the kids and the house life. But

818
00:51:32,046 --> 00:51:35,772
your wife knew what you were doing, right? She had to know how

819
00:51:35,916 --> 00:51:39,513
dangerous this was. She knew that what I

820
00:51:39,513 --> 00:51:42,387
did, she didn't know what I was doing. And she didn't know where I was.

821
00:51:43,061 --> 00:51:46,112
And certainly in the kidnap world, you know, it would be a drop of a

822
00:51:46,112 --> 00:51:49,644
hat. There's something happened and I'm on the next plane out to

823
00:51:49,644 --> 00:51:52,984
somewhere. But the thing is, she didn't know when I'll be back. You know, sometimes

824
00:51:53,032 --> 00:51:56,693
it'll be 5 days. I've been away for 3 months before. And

825
00:51:56,709 --> 00:52:00,461
so, That's weird. We've

826
00:52:00,461 --> 00:52:03,523
got to end up with a scary kidnap

827
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:07,883
story to close out the first stage because I've got

828
00:52:07,915 --> 00:52:11,602
like 4 extra pages here that I haven't even touched on

829
00:52:11,762 --> 00:52:14,984
it. But I mean, these are 2 big phrases, UC,

830
00:52:15,305 --> 00:52:18,463
kidnap extortion. A story please that

831
00:52:19,938 --> 00:52:23,432
is either the scariest time you were ever involved in it or the

832
00:52:23,432 --> 00:52:27,184
most Or a screw-up? Everybody likes to hear, oh my

833
00:52:27,232 --> 00:52:30,984
God, like Neil Giles told me, he turns up and everyone's chasing

834
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,881
him because they think he's got the drugs or whatever.

835
00:52:35,201 --> 00:52:38,985
So, give us a story during that time. I

836
00:52:39,033 --> 00:52:42,561
suppose not a screw-up, how

837
00:52:42,641 --> 00:52:46,473
difficult these can be. Try and make a very long story very short. So, we

838
00:52:46,473 --> 00:52:50,161
have a kidnap of a UK national. This is in the

839
00:52:50,322 --> 00:52:54,156
public domain, so tell you about it without telling you names,

840
00:52:54,252 --> 00:52:57,638
but an NGO working in Sudan— Okay.

841
00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:01,313
Was taken. At that time, we didn't— the West didn't have a very good

842
00:53:01,313 --> 00:53:05,101
relationship with Sudan politically. And I came back from

843
00:53:05,101 --> 00:53:08,487
holiday and my boss called me again. We got a COBRA meeting

844
00:53:08,936 --> 00:53:12,691
at 4 o'clock. So, we go to COBRA where this has been

845
00:53:12,724 --> 00:53:16,479
discussed and comes out someone needs to

846
00:53:16,479 --> 00:53:20,251
go. And I'm, yeah, I agree. And then everyone's looking at me

847
00:53:20,974 --> 00:53:24,603
and I'm going, I didn't expect that bit. Um, so anyway, I'm

848
00:53:24,603 --> 00:53:28,441
told 5 days, you know, go and explore, see what the land lies, see

849
00:53:28,458 --> 00:53:32,183
what we can do. Anyway, that's therefore, I think, about 6 weeks plus.

850
00:53:32,537 --> 00:53:36,182
Wow. Because we got there and it's about perception. And I

851
00:53:36,246 --> 00:53:40,020
suppose everyone's telling me no one's gonna help, no one, they

852
00:53:40,036 --> 00:53:43,457
don't like us, you know, politically, you know, the West are not

853
00:53:43,473 --> 00:53:47,006
great, the UK have issues with president or prime minister

854
00:53:47,633 --> 00:53:51,102
about the ICC and everything else. So, what I

855
00:53:51,102 --> 00:53:54,668
found is when you actually go and talk to people face-to-face, and I've found that

856
00:53:55,053 --> 00:53:58,699
throughout my whole career, even as a UC, if you can relate to people,

857
00:53:59,133 --> 00:54:02,313
you can get them to do what you want. Not in a nasty way, but—

858
00:54:03,068 --> 00:54:06,007
Bring it together, baby, as they say in the movies.

859
00:54:06,666 --> 00:54:10,376
Right. So, we talked to government officials, we talked to ministers, and then I

860
00:54:10,376 --> 00:54:13,587
fly out to Darfur. in Sudan where he's been held. Yeah.

861
00:54:14,374 --> 00:54:17,857
And I end up talking to villagers and I end up talking to

862
00:54:18,082 --> 00:54:21,613
village chiefs. And do you know what? They were the ones who got him back

863
00:54:21,998 --> 00:54:25,835
because talking to them, explaining he's an NGO, he's here to help you, and all

864
00:54:25,851 --> 00:54:29,302
the factors. There's no money. We're a UK, British government. We don't pay for

865
00:54:29,302 --> 00:54:32,224
hostages released, you know? So it was all negotiations.

866
00:54:33,315 --> 00:54:36,959
And they came around, they influenced the rebels that had taken him

867
00:54:36,959 --> 00:54:40,395
because they all know each other. They influenced him. And then he was

868
00:54:40,459 --> 00:54:43,173
released. He was there 86 days in total,

869
00:54:44,072 --> 00:54:47,492
and I was able to fly him out. And that was the

870
00:54:47,685 --> 00:54:51,490
first time I think, A, I flew out the hostage, because normally when our work

871
00:54:51,490 --> 00:54:55,152
is done, we're done. But it was Sudan, so it was difficult to get flights

872
00:54:55,152 --> 00:54:58,861
out. Right. We were on the same flight out, and I met

873
00:54:58,925 --> 00:55:02,619
them back in the UK. He met— I took him to his family. And

874
00:55:02,635 --> 00:55:06,296
again, we don't do that. We normally disappear into the shadows when our work's

875
00:55:06,408 --> 00:55:10,067
done. And I think I was probably more emotionally

876
00:55:10,885 --> 00:55:14,478
impacted by his reaction with his family. By the reunion?

877
00:55:15,056 --> 00:55:18,457
Yeah. And I don't often have a tear,

878
00:55:18,681 --> 00:55:22,451
but I could probably admit that I thought, yeah, I'm pleased. And it was a

879
00:55:22,451 --> 00:55:25,660
nice feeling. And then obviously I went back to doing what I normally do and

880
00:55:25,660 --> 00:55:29,430
get on with it. But yeah. It's a lovely ending to the

881
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:33,216
most enjoyable session, Nick. And as I said, I've got so

882
00:55:33,216 --> 00:55:36,390
many more questions to ask you, and I know you've got

883
00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:40,040
stories galore stuck in that mind of yours.

884
00:55:40,088 --> 00:55:43,197
So can I just say thank you, namaste,

885
00:55:45,865 --> 00:55:49,707
for such a really entertaining

886
00:55:49,739 --> 00:55:53,261
and enjoyable session? And I hope I can entice you back on

887
00:55:53,843 --> 00:55:57,287
in the not too distant future. Thank you, Gary. It's been quite

888
00:55:57,336 --> 00:56:01,123
cathartic because I don't often speak, but thank you for inviting me. Take

889
00:56:01,123 --> 00:56:04,914
care. Bye, mate. Bye. Thank you for listening,

890
00:56:05,138 --> 00:56:08,833
and if you enjoyed this podcast, please click and subscribe to the

891
00:56:08,833 --> 00:56:12,527
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892
00:56:12,527 --> 00:56:13,218
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