speaker-0: Welcome back to the integration hub. And welcome back to our summer retail series. Today's guest is Dave Finnegan. He actually helped build Build a Bear, spent almost a decade at the fly fishing brand Orbis, and then took a year off to backpack the world, interviewing tribes, scientists, and monks before landing in private equity and becoming an ambassador for the National Retail Federation. Today we get to talk about leadership, AI, retail's next generation of shoppers, one of my fave topics. And a story about a ten-year-old girl and a bell that I still think about today. Now let's get into it. And of course I'm excited to introduce you all to the wonderful Dave Finnegan. Dave, thank you so much for joining us today here on the Integration Hub. I would love if you could do a quick intro, quick might be tough to do, but a quick intro of of your experience and and what's brought you here today, ⁓ with me here on the show.
speaker-1: Grace, you and I have been friends for a long time in the industry, so I really appreciate the invite to be on your show. I I I think highly of you and and the work that you guys are doing. So my background is that I helped to start Build Abear a long time ago and ⁓ I was there for nearly fifteen years. I was I ⁓ headed up technology and interaction, store of the future kind of online and offline play ⁓ together.
speaker-0: Thank you.
speaker-1: ⁓ learned a ton from that process. ⁓ was on Oprah's show and we had a whole we know went public during that time. There was a whole bunch that I learned from that. Left there to go to work for Orvis, which is an outdoor fly fishing brand that's based in Vermont that has guides and lodges all over the world. And ⁓ I was there for almost a decade and then I left there ⁓ to go backpacking around the planet for a year interviewing tribes and you know, interviewing the Yagwas tribe in South America on the Amazon and the the Maasai tribe in in Africa. Interviewed the librarian of the oldest library in the world at the monastery of St. Catherine. scientists in the Galapagos and Antarctica. And anyway, I took a year of just collecting. humans perspectives on a number of things. Anyway, I came back from that ⁓ at the beginning of 23 and got into private equity and work with New Road, which are just some rock star guys. You you know New Road, where we do business together. And ⁓ and now I'm an ambassador. So I I do private equity, but I'm also an ambassador for the National Retail Federation. And I work with the councils for CIOs and CMOs and CDOs. I also ⁓ work a lot with Vicky Cantrell on VIP and VIP awards and VIP Connect. So I'm very, very much into connecting people today. That's what I do a lot. ⁓ and I feel like face to face connections are the way that we build relationships. And so I often say if you wanna scale your business, you scale your relationships and and build them in a meaningful way. And especially in today's in today's environment, doing that is more important than ever.
speaker-0: Now, Dave spends a lot of his time talking to CIOs, CMOs, and supply chain leaders about exactly one thing. How fast AI is forcing everyone to change. And we asked him what he's seen on the ground when it comes to executing that. Well, you know, it ⁓ that actually brings me to my first question, too. And ⁓ especially, you know, Vicky and I get into a lot of the partnership side and the the the human connection, and there's so much You know, that you and I are both doing and at the same time in the technology side of all this too. So I'm I'm interested, what's what's grabbing your attention right now, especially from your unique perspective of of ⁓ this networking, ⁓ human aspect of of retail in particular, that I'm sure is just being hit hard, right? With with the non-human technical side of it all. What's what's positive, what's what's bad out of of what you're seeing in front of you today?
speaker-1: So what's interesting is ⁓ a few months ago I I invited Wes, who was the founder of Monks Media, huge agency. Now they do Google and GMC and a whole bunch of different brands. He in 2023 decided that he was going to disrupt his he sent a letter to the organization stating that AI was exp was an existential threat to the old way of thinking about agencies. And that they would shift to disrupt themselves in a really, really meaningful way. So they went after doing that starting in 23. So they're a little ahead of most people because they've been doing it for a couple of years. ⁓ they've learned some amazing things. And every year ⁓ he sends a a ⁓ statement that's provocative to his team. At the beginning of this year, the statement that he sent was the technology is ready. It's there. The people are not. So I think what I'm saying is ⁓ that from a technology perspective, there are so many amazing things that AI can do. And we're going through this time massive change ⁓ that's on the scale of the industrial revolution. Only it's we're doing it in a tenth of the time. And that's creating for humans this huge. Huge need to be learning agile and to be quick, not change. And some people are successful at that and other people are not. So where I'm seeing a lot of conversation right now is the human com you know, the human part of what AI is. In fact, ⁓ a ⁓ couple weeks ago, I interviewed ⁓ Dr. Janet Sherlock with ⁓ Rob Garf. They just released a joint study where they said what's the most biggest impediment to AI adoption? The biggest impediment was the team's ability to change rapidly and to learn rapidly. So for me, I feel like companies that understand that it's about change. It's not about the technology itself. It's about humans and what it means to change. Those who focus on that and put in the things that they need to to help their teams to become agile. And to be, you know, resilient through change, those are the ones that I've seen that are gonna be successful.
speaker-0: And that question about the human side of AI led somewhere we didn't expect. A story about a women's rugby team. You know, it's it's interesting because I've I've always talked in my past, especially when it comes to technology adoption about the importance of change management, right? But it it this feels much bigger than the traditional change management experiences that Think society has had on it in the past, right? Or maybe it's almost feels like a societal change management situation, right? That we're we're in a much bigger aptitude of that. how do you I'm interested from you know, you talk about going out and like talking with individuals of of all these different cultures and experiences. What does that change management mean to you today, especially in this AI world? Like how How can leaders, you know, balance this understanding of like such a completely different arena that they're not used to? And I think the humans and their employees aren't used to from ⁓ the agility standpoint you you speak on? How do they balance that with with also just like pushing that drive from them but under s almost giving them empathy at the same time of of how drastic this change has been?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think really, really I've seen leaders by the way who are super empathetic, so much so that they don't drive the team. And I so they can they they're at one end of the spectrum where they think that empathy is the thing. ⁓ empathy doesn't mean that you don't drive. Empathy that means that in my view that you listen and that you understand the perspective. But it doesn't absolve us from continuing to push forward and saying, okay, what are we going to do to get this done? Interestingly, next week we're going to have ⁓ Steph Rivetti, who's who was a medalist at the Olympics. I think you met Steph in New York. ⁓ she was a rugby medalist, and we were talking about ⁓ what was really, really interesting about her story is that. All of the women of rugby, if you look at the team makeup, none of them were rugby players growing up. Not one. So in other words, you had a team that didn't have the skill of rugby that was the rugby team. Does that make sense? So they had to learn and and they'd been par playing rugby, but they were basketball players and soccer players, and they had all come together. And so they had to learn very, very, very quickly what this sport meant and what it meant to do that. And we talked about some of the building blocks of how to do that successfully rapidly. The first thing was that they were really, really clear on what their mission was. And when people understand the mission and how they play in that mission, then it unlocks something unique, right? And so It started with understanding the mission. The next was they would ⁓ they would go into these feedback loops where every game, every practice, they would s talk about a handful of questions. How did it go? What things were good, what things weren't good. They would do that on a daily basis. Now, in business, that's not as practical, but giving feedback in a rapid scenario where you're talking about what I could have done better and what I could do. keep pushing on is what this was all about. And when they did that with a clear mission and they got that instant feedback, then they could shape their performance in a much, much more meaningful way. And so I feel like leaders who get the fact that they need to spend time with really c clearly defining what the mission is and making sure that others have an invitation to show up to lean into the mission. along with ⁓ giving quick feedback, successes and failures, some of the stuff that they would talk lots of the times they would talk about what didn't work and what what they failed on. ⁓ and they would do it over and over and over again. They also interestingly set aside time that was ⁓ here's time that we have to execute and here's time that we can be innovative ⁓ and try new things. And they delineated some of those times that were appropriate to be creative, where other times they just needed to grind stuff out. All of those things I think leaders ⁓ could use today to help navigate AI.
speaker-0: So from leadership, we moved into retail itself. And Dave's answer started with a story from his Build-A-Bear days that has stuck with him for years now. I want to take a step into the retail space in particular. You know, this is our summer retail series, and happy to to be talking to a number of leaders in this space, customers of ours in the retail space as well. ⁓ you're constantly chatting with those in this ⁓ sector too. Where what gets you excited in in retail generally right now? Whether it's the customer experience itself or or how they're running their their tech stocks, ⁓ where do you see people really focused on in their retail journeys?
speaker-1: What I'm excited about is there's this, ⁓ I'm very, very bullish about AI. ⁓ and so if you you know, as we look at process and as we look at what AI is really, really good at is taking friction away and creating convenience. As humans, we have on the side, by the way, I'm I study anthropology, I'm getting a master's in anthropology. and What I've realized is that, you know, as humans, we we have some basic human needs that that drive our our experiences, including our experiences with retail. One of those basic human needs is convenience is really important to us. And AI is really, really good at that. It's really, really good at making things more and more and more convenient. Where AI, where the human comes into that is AI is ⁓ AI doesn't build relationships, it doesn't connect. and that's where the human component of this is really, really strong. And so I feel like the the retail experiences of the future are a combination of hyper convenience because of AI and and the ability to personalize, along with a human with human touch that creates a connected experience where people understand that you actually get them from a human perspective. And not automating the human connected to you know the connectivity out of it. Actually, I had an experience at Build-A-Bear that kind of shaped my thoughts about this a lot. We'd done a store of the future concept at Build-A-Bear, and ⁓ I was going to each of the openings of the store of the future. And some of the stores, it was a four, four and a half hour wait to get in the store. Like the line was out the mall around the mall to get into our store for this opening. And ⁓ what was interesting is I was standing outside the store one day with the head of s store operations, like the chief of all of the stores. And he said to me, Finn, you know, we we get our guest, you know, we were watching what the experience was. You know, keep in mind our our guest was the most digitally savvy human in the history of humans, right? A 10-year-old girl who was born with with a phone in her hand and access to all of this information, access to AI and those types of things. She ⁓ he said, Look, what's interesting is we had infused this store with lots of technology and lots of crossover online and offline. And he said, you know, what's interesting is we get our highest guest satisfaction ratings when one human connects to another human at the store. And I was standing there watching the experience and I watched this little girl go into the store and this store. So she knelt down at her level and said, Why are you here today? And she said, It's my birthday. And she's like, then she stood up, rang a bell so everybody knew it was her birthday and said, Everyone, it's Grace's birthday today. You should have seen this kid's face. I mean it it exploded with emotion, right? And same with her family. And that connection that it created was with the most digitally savvy human on the history of this planet. ⁓ and and so from my perspective, as we think about AI and how what role it plays, it doesn't automate those experiences. ⁓ it can it can help. ⁓ it can help with convenience. It can help with personalization. But I feel like those that cr craft an experience where it allows the humans to be human and help to validate being seen and and understood along with this automation. I think those are gonna be the combinations that win in the future.
speaker-0: Next, I asked Dave, what's changing about who's actually walking into stores and why the next generation of shoppers is so different than his was as well. Yeah, it's interesting. It's ⁓ especially you know, I'm interested from your the the the classes you're taking too and the anthropology side of things, ⁓ knowing that you're right, these generations of of buyers, I mean I I'd love to include myself in the Gen Z. No I'm not I'm a millennial, but I s tend to shop like a Gen Z person. I throw a Instagram ad in front of me, it's over. ⁓ I'm gonna follow it. as you continue to learn about like the societal change of it all too, is there ⁓ is there any like bets that you would make about the the shopping experience or just maybe for all the brands out there watching, right? Like what How do you see that connection between even like the products on the shelves and and these different ⁓ you know, channels, omni channel experiences changing the way that retail is is shaped today?
speaker-1: One of the things that I absolutely love about this next generation is ⁓ and they're way better at it than my generation was is that they are collectors of experiences. ⁓ they document where they go, they share it with others, but they collect experiences. My generation was into collecting cars and stuff like that, stuff. Their generation. ⁓ is into collecting experiences. And so if you think about it in the context of what the shopping experience turns into and how it evolves, the ability for them to have an experience at your store where they are co-creators, what that experience is, where they can come into your store, experience it, post it, or you know, shape what that is. is going to be, I think, what we see in the future with store experiences. ⁓ they'll continue to evolve and invite the customer in to create the experiences more and more and more. I just went to ⁓ a few weeks ago, a few months ago to ⁓ Arcteric's store in Soho and they did a fantastic job of highlighting what the product was, but wrapping it in an experience that you would want to talk about. And so I feel like brands they get that it's you're co creating an experience with with a bunch of authors who are coming into your store. Those are the brands that are gonna get it, I think, in the future.
speaker-0: Yeah, I almost even see that too with like the development side of things in terms of like the the physical space. You know, d Detroit right now is is working on like a new mall, you would say, but it's almost like more of like an outdoors mall, because I think you're right, like that generation wants to like sit outside, enjoy the the day, right? Have you know, maybe more of like a picnic experience instead of like a a food court that you've been used to in the past and then at the same time be able to like jump in and out of stores and and almost more of that like outlet situation and ⁓ yeah, you know, it's I don't think we're gonna lose the gener the the younger generations on, you know, being outdoors. I think that stuff's gonna grow more and more and and to your point, the experience of going to these stores more so than just, you know, ⁓ stopping by to grab something, which You know, we all know if we need something quick, there's so many different channels that we can purchase that for for speed. That now I think if we want to go somewhere, we you're right, like we want an actual true experience out of that too. So it'll be interesting to see how I think even the brands themselves put that into their products or or even like I know the area of the the store that they're in, right? How do they translate that directly? Generally looking at at retail as well, is there anything that you feel is maybe overhyped that ⁓ the p people are putting a little bit too much gasoline behind ⁓ f for for your from your perspective?
speaker-1: I think ⁓ if you think about your own shopping behavior, when you go to buy toilet paper or the commodities, sure you could automate that, no problem. The convenience, right? Everything that you could want to buy for convenience, let's automate that. Let's do that. Let's make it super easy, super seamless. But we don't shop as humans for convenience only. We shop for discovery. We shop for ⁓ personal expression. Like the way you look is how you tell a story about who you are. We shop because we want to discover things that will help to reinforce that. We also shop for validation reasons for each other. Just think about the last time you were online and p purchasing stuff. My I'll give you a 99% likelihood that you clicked on reviews because you wanted others' perspectives, right? We do that as humans. We validate our thinking with other humans. That is how we're wired. And so, in fact, we have a term that we use in retail, right? Is retail therapy. That that's that's people getting out there and just enjoying the discovery of what retail means. That will continue to be a human need. And so I feel like those that the where the going back to your question where where it's getting overhyped is we tend to think about this as a full spectrum of okay, it's gonna we're gonna agentic everything and automate all of those things. And I think ⁓ while that automation I think is going to happen for some things and it will also help from a discovery to narrow down some things or recommend some things for us, I think those human needs are still going to be present. So I think what's getting overhyped is agentic. It's going to take over the entire spectrum of of a shopping experience. I don't think it will. I think it will influence lots of it and help and then automate some of the stuff that we just need to, you know, get no more detergent for the washer or whatever that kind of stuff is. That's where I think it's getting overhyped right now.
speaker-0: To wrap this, I actually ⁓ you talk about visiting the first library, which is so awesome. I am a big I I used to be so much better at it when I was younger. And the last year or two I've gotten back into reading at least an hour, if not two a day. big reader over here to the point where I kinda have to stay away from from Schulers and Barnes and Noble sometimes. But If you'd leave our audience with maybe a book that, you know, would help them in their their leadership experience in retail in particular, ⁓ or even maybe one that you're reading in in your classes right now, what what's a book that you'd leave our audience with to go check out?
speaker-1: ⁓ I can tell you what I'm reading right now. I'm reading Musk's biography. ⁓ I'd read one of his biographies before, but this one's more contemporary, newer. ⁓ and so I'm reading that. There's a lot to learn there from from who he is and his experience. Whether you like him or not, there's a lot that we can learn from from Musk and and his ⁓ his the way he thinks and how How he gets things done's pretty pretty amazing. I think he's a singular He's a s he's one of those figures that in history we'll we'll look back on and and ⁓ we'll appreciate that he was he was there as as extreme as he can be. But ⁓ I'm I'm learning a lot from from that that book. ⁓ I would say in my top books of all time, if if we if we don't talk about ⁓ business books, one of my top books is The comfort crisis by Michael Easter. The comfort crisis is they did the study in the Olympic Village to see how many people in the Olympic village would take the escalator compared to the stairs. And they found that 98% of people would take the escalator, only 2% would take the stairs. These were athletes, right? So they thought, well, maybe they're Maybe it's because they were saving their energy for their sports or link that kind of stuff. So they did this study ⁓ in other parts of the world. And what they found is that 98% of people take the escalator everywhere. And it's ⁓ the idea is his thesis is that what's happened to us as humans is we've eliminated discomfort walking upstairs. We've eliminated that. And we're conditioned to just do that instead of doing things that are uncomfortable for us. And by taking things that are uncomfortable for us out of the mix, it doesn't allow us to grow. It doesn't allow us to have a richer experience as humans. We don't learn as much. ⁓ and so the idea is to reintroduce things that are challenging into your life. ⁓ get into uncomfortable situations and get used to that and see the value and what it means to be uncomfortable. And instead of trying to eliminate that, try to harness its power and what that actually can do for you. So that that's probably one of my more seminal books for me. I'm I'm a big explorer, explorers club guy, and ⁓ I'm a big shackleton fan. So endurance, the Shackleton story is a big one for me. I belong to the Society of ⁓ the James Caron Society, which is a Shackleton society in England. And so I know a ton about that story and have visited the the boat he had and seen artifacts from it, stuff like that. So I I could geek out on that kind of stuff all the time. So I have tons of explorer stuff that that I read. So
speaker-0: Well, I think that actually gives us a nice full circle moment too for this conversation, right? Because we started off talking about kind of that like uncomfortable push that that I'm sure employees are seeing in this space with AI as well and the change management of it all and and ⁓ you leave us with a few books to kind of work through that, right? And in our minds as well. So Dave, thank you so much for joining us. If people want to learn more about the work that you're doing and of course follow the VIP as well, where where should they go?
speaker-1: So I'm very, very active on LinkedIn and would would welcome connecting on LinkedIn. I'm also I have I co-host a podcast called Seekers and Disruptors with Rob Garf, where we the thesis of that podcast is that, you know, in our industries, in our lives, we kind of get into a echo chamber of the same sorts of things. We hear the same sorts of issues, the same sorts of challenges. And The idea is that if we break out of our echo chamber and go to other cultures and go to other industries and go to other places, we can learn if we do that with our cup ready to receive and listen, then we can learn things that we can apply to our own lives, to our own companies. So it becomes a source of not only inspiration but innovation for us by looking at how other people are solving problems and And then thinking about how we could apply that same kind of principle. So we interview, we've interviewed astronauts, we interviewed the godfather of the video game industry, we've interviewed Olympic medalists. Next week I'm interviewing Allison Levine. She's the woman, she led the first all-women's ascent to Mount Everest. And so it's by talking to these people who think differently, I think that. we can unlock some interesting insight that can help us navigate what change actually means. And by learning from others, it's a source of inspiration and innovation for us. So LinkedIn is my best place to to connect.
speaker-0: Love it. We'll put all of those links in the description below for our audience as well. Dave, thank you so much for joining us. And ⁓ we'll definitely make sure to bring you back here to the show as well.
speaker-1: All right, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks for spending some time.
speaker-0: Love this discussion with Dave, and I'm sure you caught on that both Dave and Vicky from a few episodes ago worked together in VIP Connect. That's how I met the two of them, and they've taught me and orderful a lot about building relationships in the retail space. And Dave's career as a whole is a case study of what happens when you build relationships instead of just focusing on the transactions. Build a bear to National Retail Federation to the year that he spent. Talking with tribal elders and monks around the world, that all threads into one main point. AI can remove friction, but it cannot replace connection. And the connection is what's powering AI at the end of the day. Now, if you want to continue to see what we're building in AI here at orderful, head to www.orderful.com to learn more. Go ahead and book a demo with one of our experts because we want to make sure that your EDI is working for you. Until then, I want to thank you, Dave, for joining me. Excited to bring Dave on the show and and hopefully see him at some events moving forward as well. Until then, stay tuned for new episodes of the Integration Hub. Be sure to stay connected.
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speaker-1: Grace, you and I have been friends for a long time in the industry, so I really appreciate the invite to be on your show. I I I think highly of you and and the work that you guys are doing. So my background is that I helped to start Build Abear a long time ago and ⁓ I was there for nearly fifteen years. I was I ⁓ headed up technology and interaction, store of the future kind of online and offline play ⁓ together.
speaker-0: Thank you.
speaker-1: ⁓ learned a ton from that process. ⁓ was on Oprah's show and we had a whole we know went public during that time. There was a whole bunch that I learned from that. Left there to go to work for Orvis, which is an outdoor fly fishing brand that's based in Vermont that has guides and lodges all over the world. And ⁓ I was there for almost a decade and then I left there ⁓ to go backpacking around the planet for a year interviewing tribes and you know, interviewing the Yagwas tribe in South America on the Amazon and the the Maasai tribe in in Africa. Interviewed the librarian of the oldest library in the world at the monastery of St. Catherine. scientists in the Galapagos and Antarctica. And anyway, I took a year of just collecting. humans perspectives on a number of things. Anyway, I came back from that ⁓ at the beginning of 23 and got into private equity and work with New Road, which are just some rock star guys. You you know New Road, where we do business together. And ⁓ and now I'm an ambassador. So I I do private equity, but I'm also an ambassador for the National Retail Federation. And I work with the councils for CIOs and CMOs and CDOs. I also ⁓ work a lot with Vicky Cantrell on VIP and VIP awards and VIP Connect. So I'm very, very much into connecting people today. That's what I do a lot. ⁓ and I feel like face to face connections are the way that we build relationships. And so I often say if you wanna scale your business, you scale your relationships and and build them in a meaningful way. And especially in today's in today's environment, doing that is more important than ever.
speaker-0: Now, Dave spends a lot of his time talking to CIOs, CMOs, and supply chain leaders about exactly one thing. How fast AI is forcing everyone to change. And we asked him what he's seen on the ground when it comes to executing that. Well, you know, it ⁓ that actually brings me to my first question, too. And ⁓ especially, you know, Vicky and I get into a lot of the partnership side and the the the human connection, and there's so much You know, that you and I are both doing and at the same time in the technology side of all this too. So I'm I'm interested, what's what's grabbing your attention right now, especially from your unique perspective of of ⁓ this networking, ⁓ human aspect of of retail in particular, that I'm sure is just being hit hard, right? With with the non-human technical side of it all. What's what's positive, what's what's bad out of of what you're seeing in front of you today?
speaker-1: So what's interesting is ⁓ a few months ago I I invited Wes, who was the founder of Monks Media, huge agency. Now they do Google and GMC and a whole bunch of different brands. He in 2023 decided that he was going to disrupt his he sent a letter to the organization stating that AI was exp was an existential threat to the old way of thinking about agencies. And that they would shift to disrupt themselves in a really, really meaningful way. So they went after doing that starting in 23. So they're a little ahead of most people because they've been doing it for a couple of years. ⁓ they've learned some amazing things. And every year ⁓ he sends a a ⁓ statement that's provocative to his team. At the beginning of this year, the statement that he sent was the technology is ready. It's there. The people are not. So I think what I'm saying is ⁓ that from a technology perspective, there are so many amazing things that AI can do. And we're going through this time massive change ⁓ that's on the scale of the industrial revolution. Only it's we're doing it in a tenth of the time. And that's creating for humans this huge. Huge need to be learning agile and to be quick, not change. And some people are successful at that and other people are not. So where I'm seeing a lot of conversation right now is the human com you know, the human part of what AI is. In fact, ⁓ a ⁓ couple weeks ago, I interviewed ⁓ Dr. Janet Sherlock with ⁓ Rob Garf. They just released a joint study where they said what's the most biggest impediment to AI adoption? The biggest impediment was the team's ability to change rapidly and to learn rapidly. So for me, I feel like companies that understand that it's about change. It's not about the technology itself. It's about humans and what it means to change. Those who focus on that and put in the things that they need to to help their teams to become agile. And to be, you know, resilient through change, those are the ones that I've seen that are gonna be successful.
speaker-0: And that question about the human side of AI led somewhere we didn't expect. A story about a women's rugby team. You know, it's it's interesting because I've I've always talked in my past, especially when it comes to technology adoption about the importance of change management, right? But it it this feels much bigger than the traditional change management experiences that Think society has had on it in the past, right? Or maybe it's almost feels like a societal change management situation, right? That we're we're in a much bigger aptitude of that. how do you I'm interested from you know, you talk about going out and like talking with individuals of of all these different cultures and experiences. What does that change management mean to you today, especially in this AI world? Like how How can leaders, you know, balance this understanding of like such a completely different arena that they're not used to? And I think the humans and their employees aren't used to from ⁓ the agility standpoint you you speak on? How do they balance that with with also just like pushing that drive from them but under s almost giving them empathy at the same time of of how drastic this change has been?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think really, really I've seen leaders by the way who are super empathetic, so much so that they don't drive the team. And I so they can they they're at one end of the spectrum where they think that empathy is the thing. ⁓ empathy doesn't mean that you don't drive. Empathy that means that in my view that you listen and that you understand the perspective. But it doesn't absolve us from continuing to push forward and saying, okay, what are we going to do to get this done? Interestingly, next week we're going to have ⁓ Steph Rivetti, who's who was a medalist at the Olympics. I think you met Steph in New York. ⁓ she was a rugby medalist, and we were talking about ⁓ what was really, really interesting about her story is that. All of the women of rugby, if you look at the team makeup, none of them were rugby players growing up. Not one. So in other words, you had a team that didn't have the skill of rugby that was the rugby team. Does that make sense? So they had to learn and and they'd been par playing rugby, but they were basketball players and soccer players, and they had all come together. And so they had to learn very, very, very quickly what this sport meant and what it meant to do that. And we talked about some of the building blocks of how to do that successfully rapidly. The first thing was that they were really, really clear on what their mission was. And when people understand the mission and how they play in that mission, then it unlocks something unique, right? And so It started with understanding the mission. The next was they would ⁓ they would go into these feedback loops where every game, every practice, they would s talk about a handful of questions. How did it go? What things were good, what things weren't good. They would do that on a daily basis. Now, in business, that's not as practical, but giving feedback in a rapid scenario where you're talking about what I could have done better and what I could do. keep pushing on is what this was all about. And when they did that with a clear mission and they got that instant feedback, then they could shape their performance in a much, much more meaningful way. And so I feel like leaders who get the fact that they need to spend time with really c clearly defining what the mission is and making sure that others have an invitation to show up to lean into the mission. along with ⁓ giving quick feedback, successes and failures, some of the stuff that they would talk lots of the times they would talk about what didn't work and what what they failed on. ⁓ and they would do it over and over and over again. They also interestingly set aside time that was ⁓ here's time that we have to execute and here's time that we can be innovative ⁓ and try new things. And they delineated some of those times that were appropriate to be creative, where other times they just needed to grind stuff out. All of those things I think leaders ⁓ could use today to help navigate AI.
speaker-0: So from leadership, we moved into retail itself. And Dave's answer started with a story from his Build-A-Bear days that has stuck with him for years now. I want to take a step into the retail space in particular. You know, this is our summer retail series, and happy to to be talking to a number of leaders in this space, customers of ours in the retail space as well. ⁓ you're constantly chatting with those in this ⁓ sector too. Where what gets you excited in in retail generally right now? Whether it's the customer experience itself or or how they're running their their tech stocks, ⁓ where do you see people really focused on in their retail journeys?
speaker-1: What I'm excited about is there's this, ⁓ I'm very, very bullish about AI. ⁓ and so if you you know, as we look at process and as we look at what AI is really, really good at is taking friction away and creating convenience. As humans, we have on the side, by the way, I'm I study anthropology, I'm getting a master's in anthropology. and What I've realized is that, you know, as humans, we we have some basic human needs that that drive our our experiences, including our experiences with retail. One of those basic human needs is convenience is really important to us. And AI is really, really good at that. It's really, really good at making things more and more and more convenient. Where AI, where the human comes into that is AI is ⁓ AI doesn't build relationships, it doesn't connect. and that's where the human component of this is really, really strong. And so I feel like the the retail experiences of the future are a combination of hyper convenience because of AI and and the ability to personalize, along with a human with human touch that creates a connected experience where people understand that you actually get them from a human perspective. And not automating the human connected to you know the connectivity out of it. Actually, I had an experience at Build-A-Bear that kind of shaped my thoughts about this a lot. We'd done a store of the future concept at Build-A-Bear, and ⁓ I was going to each of the openings of the store of the future. And some of the stores, it was a four, four and a half hour wait to get in the store. Like the line was out the mall around the mall to get into our store for this opening. And ⁓ what was interesting is I was standing outside the store one day with the head of s store operations, like the chief of all of the stores. And he said to me, Finn, you know, we we get our guest, you know, we were watching what the experience was. You know, keep in mind our our guest was the most digitally savvy human in the history of humans, right? A 10-year-old girl who was born with with a phone in her hand and access to all of this information, access to AI and those types of things. She ⁓ he said, Look, what's interesting is we had infused this store with lots of technology and lots of crossover online and offline. And he said, you know, what's interesting is we get our highest guest satisfaction ratings when one human connects to another human at the store. And I was standing there watching the experience and I watched this little girl go into the store and this store. So she knelt down at her level and said, Why are you here today? And she said, It's my birthday. And she's like, then she stood up, rang a bell so everybody knew it was her birthday and said, Everyone, it's Grace's birthday today. You should have seen this kid's face. I mean it it exploded with emotion, right? And same with her family. And that connection that it created was with the most digitally savvy human on the history of this planet. ⁓ and and so from my perspective, as we think about AI and how what role it plays, it doesn't automate those experiences. ⁓ it can it can help. ⁓ it can help with convenience. It can help with personalization. But I feel like those that cr craft an experience where it allows the humans to be human and help to validate being seen and and understood along with this automation. I think those are gonna be the combinations that win in the future.
speaker-0: Next, I asked Dave, what's changing about who's actually walking into stores and why the next generation of shoppers is so different than his was as well. Yeah, it's interesting. It's ⁓ especially you know, I'm interested from your the the the classes you're taking too and the anthropology side of things, ⁓ knowing that you're right, these generations of of buyers, I mean I I'd love to include myself in the Gen Z. No I'm not I'm a millennial, but I s tend to shop like a Gen Z person. I throw a Instagram ad in front of me, it's over. ⁓ I'm gonna follow it. as you continue to learn about like the societal change of it all too, is there ⁓ is there any like bets that you would make about the the shopping experience or just maybe for all the brands out there watching, right? Like what How do you see that connection between even like the products on the shelves and and these different ⁓ you know, channels, omni channel experiences changing the way that retail is is shaped today?
speaker-1: One of the things that I absolutely love about this next generation is ⁓ and they're way better at it than my generation was is that they are collectors of experiences. ⁓ they document where they go, they share it with others, but they collect experiences. My generation was into collecting cars and stuff like that, stuff. Their generation. ⁓ is into collecting experiences. And so if you think about it in the context of what the shopping experience turns into and how it evolves, the ability for them to have an experience at your store where they are co-creators, what that experience is, where they can come into your store, experience it, post it, or you know, shape what that is. is going to be, I think, what we see in the future with store experiences. ⁓ they'll continue to evolve and invite the customer in to create the experiences more and more and more. I just went to ⁓ a few weeks ago, a few months ago to ⁓ Arcteric's store in Soho and they did a fantastic job of highlighting what the product was, but wrapping it in an experience that you would want to talk about. And so I feel like brands they get that it's you're co creating an experience with with a bunch of authors who are coming into your store. Those are the brands that are gonna get it, I think, in the future.
speaker-0: Yeah, I almost even see that too with like the development side of things in terms of like the the physical space. You know, d Detroit right now is is working on like a new mall, you would say, but it's almost like more of like an outdoors mall, because I think you're right, like that generation wants to like sit outside, enjoy the the day, right? Have you know, maybe more of like a picnic experience instead of like a a food court that you've been used to in the past and then at the same time be able to like jump in and out of stores and and almost more of that like outlet situation and ⁓ yeah, you know, it's I don't think we're gonna lose the gener the the younger generations on, you know, being outdoors. I think that stuff's gonna grow more and more and and to your point, the experience of going to these stores more so than just, you know, ⁓ stopping by to grab something, which You know, we all know if we need something quick, there's so many different channels that we can purchase that for for speed. That now I think if we want to go somewhere, we you're right, like we want an actual true experience out of that too. So it'll be interesting to see how I think even the brands themselves put that into their products or or even like I know the area of the the store that they're in, right? How do they translate that directly? Generally looking at at retail as well, is there anything that you feel is maybe overhyped that ⁓ the p people are putting a little bit too much gasoline behind ⁓ f for for your from your perspective?
speaker-1: I think ⁓ if you think about your own shopping behavior, when you go to buy toilet paper or the commodities, sure you could automate that, no problem. The convenience, right? Everything that you could want to buy for convenience, let's automate that. Let's do that. Let's make it super easy, super seamless. But we don't shop as humans for convenience only. We shop for discovery. We shop for ⁓ personal expression. Like the way you look is how you tell a story about who you are. We shop because we want to discover things that will help to reinforce that. We also shop for validation reasons for each other. Just think about the last time you were online and p purchasing stuff. My I'll give you a 99% likelihood that you clicked on reviews because you wanted others' perspectives, right? We do that as humans. We validate our thinking with other humans. That is how we're wired. And so, in fact, we have a term that we use in retail, right? Is retail therapy. That that's that's people getting out there and just enjoying the discovery of what retail means. That will continue to be a human need. And so I feel like those that the where the going back to your question where where it's getting overhyped is we tend to think about this as a full spectrum of okay, it's gonna we're gonna agentic everything and automate all of those things. And I think ⁓ while that automation I think is going to happen for some things and it will also help from a discovery to narrow down some things or recommend some things for us, I think those human needs are still going to be present. So I think what's getting overhyped is agentic. It's going to take over the entire spectrum of of a shopping experience. I don't think it will. I think it will influence lots of it and help and then automate some of the stuff that we just need to, you know, get no more detergent for the washer or whatever that kind of stuff is. That's where I think it's getting overhyped right now.
speaker-0: To wrap this, I actually ⁓ you talk about visiting the first library, which is so awesome. I am a big I I used to be so much better at it when I was younger. And the last year or two I've gotten back into reading at least an hour, if not two a day. big reader over here to the point where I kinda have to stay away from from Schulers and Barnes and Noble sometimes. But If you'd leave our audience with maybe a book that, you know, would help them in their their leadership experience in retail in particular, ⁓ or even maybe one that you're reading in in your classes right now, what what's a book that you'd leave our audience with to go check out?
speaker-1: ⁓ I can tell you what I'm reading right now. I'm reading Musk's biography. ⁓ I'd read one of his biographies before, but this one's more contemporary, newer. ⁓ and so I'm reading that. There's a lot to learn there from from who he is and his experience. Whether you like him or not, there's a lot that we can learn from from Musk and and his ⁓ his the way he thinks and how How he gets things done's pretty pretty amazing. I think he's a singular He's a s he's one of those figures that in history we'll we'll look back on and and ⁓ we'll appreciate that he was he was there as as extreme as he can be. But ⁓ I'm I'm learning a lot from from that that book. ⁓ I would say in my top books of all time, if if we if we don't talk about ⁓ business books, one of my top books is The comfort crisis by Michael Easter. The comfort crisis is they did the study in the Olympic Village to see how many people in the Olympic village would take the escalator compared to the stairs. And they found that 98% of people would take the escalator, only 2% would take the stairs. These were athletes, right? So they thought, well, maybe they're Maybe it's because they were saving their energy for their sports or link that kind of stuff. So they did this study ⁓ in other parts of the world. And what they found is that 98% of people take the escalator everywhere. And it's ⁓ the idea is his thesis is that what's happened to us as humans is we've eliminated discomfort walking upstairs. We've eliminated that. And we're conditioned to just do that instead of doing things that are uncomfortable for us. And by taking things that are uncomfortable for us out of the mix, it doesn't allow us to grow. It doesn't allow us to have a richer experience as humans. We don't learn as much. ⁓ and so the idea is to reintroduce things that are challenging into your life. ⁓ get into uncomfortable situations and get used to that and see the value and what it means to be uncomfortable. And instead of trying to eliminate that, try to harness its power and what that actually can do for you. So that that's probably one of my more seminal books for me. I'm I'm a big explorer, explorers club guy, and ⁓ I'm a big shackleton fan. So endurance, the Shackleton story is a big one for me. I belong to the Society of ⁓ the James Caron Society, which is a Shackleton society in England. And so I know a ton about that story and have visited the the boat he had and seen artifacts from it, stuff like that. So I I could geek out on that kind of stuff all the time. So I have tons of explorer stuff that that I read. So
speaker-0: Well, I think that actually gives us a nice full circle moment too for this conversation, right? Because we started off talking about kind of that like uncomfortable push that that I'm sure employees are seeing in this space with AI as well and the change management of it all and and ⁓ you leave us with a few books to kind of work through that, right? And in our minds as well. So Dave, thank you so much for joining us. If people want to learn more about the work that you're doing and of course follow the VIP as well, where where should they go?
speaker-1: So I'm very, very active on LinkedIn and would would welcome connecting on LinkedIn. I'm also I have I co-host a podcast called Seekers and Disruptors with Rob Garf, where we the thesis of that podcast is that, you know, in our industries, in our lives, we kind of get into a echo chamber of the same sorts of things. We hear the same sorts of issues, the same sorts of challenges. And The idea is that if we break out of our echo chamber and go to other cultures and go to other industries and go to other places, we can learn if we do that with our cup ready to receive and listen, then we can learn things that we can apply to our own lives, to our own companies. So it becomes a source of not only inspiration but innovation for us by looking at how other people are solving problems and And then thinking about how we could apply that same kind of principle. So we interview, we've interviewed astronauts, we interviewed the godfather of the video game industry, we've interviewed Olympic medalists. Next week I'm interviewing Allison Levine. She's the woman, she led the first all-women's ascent to Mount Everest. And so it's by talking to these people who think differently, I think that. we can unlock some interesting insight that can help us navigate what change actually means. And by learning from others, it's a source of inspiration and innovation for us. So LinkedIn is my best place to to connect.
speaker-0: Love it. We'll put all of those links in the description below for our audience as well. Dave, thank you so much for joining us. And ⁓ we'll definitely make sure to bring you back here to the show as well.
speaker-1: All right, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks for spending some time.
speaker-0: Love this discussion with Dave, and I'm sure you caught on that both Dave and Vicky from a few episodes ago worked together in VIP Connect. That's how I met the two of them, and they've taught me and orderful a lot about building relationships in the retail space. And Dave's career as a whole is a case study of what happens when you build relationships instead of just focusing on the transactions. Build a bear to National Retail Federation to the year that he spent. Talking with tribal elders and monks around the world, that all threads into one main point. AI can remove friction, but it cannot replace connection. And the connection is what's powering AI at the end of the day. Now, if you want to continue to see what we're building in AI here at orderful, head to www.orderful.com to learn more. Go ahead and book a demo with one of our experts because we want to make sure that your EDI is working for you. Until then, I want to thank you, Dave, for joining me. Excited to bring Dave on the show and and hopefully see him at some events moving forward as well. Until then, stay tuned for new episodes of the Integration Hub. Be sure to stay connected.
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