IRL - Curtis Shroeder (2)
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Innovative Revenue Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Mars. Join me as we deliver practical insights to help B2B CROs Find new and innovative ways to grow in this fast changing environment. The Innovative Revenue Leader is sponsored by Sandler, a triad company, empowering sales professionals and leaders to master the craft of selling at all levels.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. So my guest today is a, is a sales strategist, PhD professor, and research leader. He spent over a decade as an adjunct professor of marketing, sales, and management at Baylor University, all while simultaneously building his career in the corporate world. He has shaped sales strategies for Fortune 100 companies, including roles as a managing director of strategic sales programs at Oracle and as a senior advisor of CROs and revenue leaders in Gartner sales practice.
He earned his PhD in marketing and sales from Oklahoma State University and, and is, is [00:01:00] a po-postdoctoral research fellow at Texas A&M. His current position is as head of research and insight at Varicent, and he's a person that's been on the show multiple times. I always love having him on. Curtis, great to have you back.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Thanks for having me. This is, this is one of my favorite places to hang out, so to, to get the invite again, I feel honored
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah, yeah. You and me both. Like, you keep saying yes, so I keep inviting you.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Works for me
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: but I mean, a lot of the reasons, I mean, the reasons why you're coming on are because of the insights you're generating, the information that, that you're working with. You're constantly putting out really cool and interesting research, and, and I think the reason you're on this time is, is really no exception.
Before we jump into that, I just wanna go through the question. You've answered it multiple times, so it'll actually be really cool to go back and see how you answered these questions over time. But, like, as of right now, in this moment, if you're a CRO, what's the most innovative thing that you're seeing in B- in, in B2B?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Well, let me, uh, I guess innovative is in the eyes of the beholder. And, [00:02:00] uh, so maybe there's a, there's a couple things that I'll call out that, that were interesting to me, and they relate to, uh, the topic that we're gonna be discussing today. And, you know, it's the beginning of the end o- NBA season, the beginning of, uh, the NHL season, so, and the end of, uh, Major League Baseball.
And so, you know, we're, we're watching all these sorts of things, and I saw a great, uh, study or article from Ravelia Labs a, a little while ago that was talking about how sports analytics, uh, you know, the, the, the payoff of these roles that have kind of e- evolved over time. And so if you look at, you know, over the last 10, 15 years, were hiring data scientists.
You know, this is kind of coming out of the Moneyball era, and, and they really saw this bump in win rates over, over that period of time. Um, but in the NBA, I think what they kind of reported on is that where everybody started hiring for these roles, that advantage that they have really started dropping.
And so,
you know, we're gonna be talking about RevOps as a, as a function, but what's interesting to me about this, again, whether you think about this innovatively or not, is that it's [00:03:00] really important to stay at kind of the forefront of these, these trends and these ideas that give you a competitive edge.
But the reality is that that advantage will go, in many ways, in many cases, to who's kind of building it first and willing to experiment first, and then to how you use that best over time. So there, there is a shelf life to some of these things. So I, I just like looking at it through the context of, of the sports world, 'cause I do think there's a lot of parallels, but I thought that was interesting as we think about the evolution of the, the RevOps roles and new functions as to how these parallels in, in sports are kind of seeing this trail off now of some of these roles and the impact that they're having.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. So I mean, I-- Translating that, you're basically saying, look, the most innovative thing is that person you have on your team that keeps pushing the frontier and connecting this new technology to value in your business. Like, that is where the innovation's happening. It's no longer about like super cool, like amazing new technology coming out that's already here, but it's about the person at the forefront that can take that cool technology and connect it into the value proposition for [00:04:00] each of the businesses
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: That's a great way of summarizing it. And to me, it's, it's that balance of like a pulse on reality and, and being able to know like from, from being at the front lines to some extent, whether that's truly front lines in the sales w- world or in front lines kind of from a leadership perspective of knowing like, "Hey, these are-- this is where things are moving.
This is kind of the reality on the ground." But then having that creativity and that ability to see around the corner a little bit and say like, "Hey, if we start to push a little bit more here, I think there's a, an edge that we have." And that's, you know, that, that's where I feel like the best leaders kind of find that.
And data-- Whether it was data analysis or, or even kind of some of these emerging roles in, in the B2B world, uh, the forward, what is it? Forward deployed engineers? Is that the
latest, uh, the world or whatever it is. Like we're just thinking about how can we do these little things. It may not be the big flash, you know, splashy thing, but those little things that give us an edge for a period, we've always gotta be kind of thinking about up-leveling.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. So, so if we go back to kind of the report that was released, you, you released the, your 2026 RevOps Skills Index. [00:05:00] Was that the catalyst of why you wanted to release a report like this, was trying to help companies identify that person and those things on the frontier and, and what that looks like in, in practice?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
I mean, so at Varicent, you know, we work with the people that are running the, the day-to-day operations. You could call them RevOps. I'm sure we'll talk about that in general and kind of the evolution of the role and the titles even like that over time. And so, you know, we have this front row seat to the work that is changing.
We're thinking about that from a product perspective, and my role, while it isn't directly engaged with, with the product and the technology itself, like, uh, I'm at the front line talking with folks all the time about what's happening in their, their business and trying to think about how we can use data, how we can use insight to help them make sense of what they're doing and, and help them have that little uplift and see around the corner a different way.
And so as we're thinking about this evolution of their work and the skills and the expectations for AI and all these shifts and if they're ready or not,
and we're also feeling this [00:06:00] pressure that we know that they're experiencing to grow efficiently. Like,
you know, you've got your budgets are under more scrutiny, you-- with, with AI or otherwise, headcounts being coming harder to justify to get return on AI, you've got to raise targets.
Like, that's just a lot of pressure to grow, not just growth at all costs, but really efficient growth. And so we have a, a, I believe, a fairly over the... If you've looked at some of the data and the, the work that we've done over the last six to eight months, like w-we would really believe the decisions that sit inside this broader revenue plan are the re- the probably most undervalued, to some extent, lever for helping grow more efficiently.
We, we think about RevOps at, at the heart of that. We think about territory decisions and, and capacity decisions and quota decisions and comp decisions, these kinds of things, which is, you know, admittedly, that is the world that Varicent plays in. So but I, I, I think there is data, good data that support now that that's where there's a lot of potential that's being, uh, kind of untapped in, in right now, where companies can kind of get that growth.
So that is where this came from, is this [00:07:00] evolution that we're seeing of the RevOps as a function, but also a lack of clarity around what that role is and what the change really looks like.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. So it's like, like one of the findings was this like going from, with rev operations shifting from operations to, to strategy, and that, that's somewhat clarifying in the report, right? 'Cause when people think about value, they do think about strategy, although that could be a little bit crazy because usually a lot of the value is put to work in, in operations.
But I, I love the idea of the shift. I just wonder if it's something that'll be valued in the long term. So right now, revenue operations is valuable because they understand how to make a business run, and a CRO really doesn't, and honestly shouldn't. Their job is to go get sales numbers. So there's a unique value in a rev ops leader in that they understand the inner workings.
If that's no longer needed, where does a rev ops leader's capabilities contribute to a strategy? Like where does [00:08:00] their expertise like add value if, if right now a lot of it is in how do I operationally execute, and that may be automated with AI?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah, it's a, it's a good point. And there's a lot in that question that, to unpack. One thing I would, that towards the end of it, you say, you know, if these capabilities are no longer needed, to me, what I will say one thing that this, the report kind of illuminated for us is that the operational piece of it, it's not that it's going away.
So it's, you know, it's, it's that it's
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Fair enough
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: now, and I think we, it, I don't know that that's revolutionary either. I mean, I think the, the core value proposition of
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Sure
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: been talking about is how do we automate, how do we get more efficient at some of the things that in operational type tasks are a part of that.
So I think in general, the, the role in rev ops from a leadership perspective around operations is, is, is not that that's their primary anymore, um, but it's, it's how do we manage different things around that. And so I, I will say also though that, you know, my, the people that I speak to in, in rev ops and in compensation and these kinds of roles, it's like they probably didn't [00:09:00] get into those roles to be operators and builders of reports.
Like, that probably isn't what they wanted initially. So I think any time that we've talked about how do you make these what we believe are very strategic kind of functions actually have a more strategic at the t- seat at the table, like that's, that's welcome for, for most people that are in those roles.
Now, I think that the, we'll probably talk about some of the discomfort or the lack of confidence right now that, that those folks might feel, but in general, for that role to be becoming more strategic is, is a good thing. And I would say what then becomes the strategic asset for that, that leader then is their operating knowledge.
Like that's, that's at least as a starting point. They have been involved in how every quota decision, territory decision, compensation decision, these kinds of things, how those played out. Nobody else that's probably involved in planning has that kind of point of view. But what is changing now is I feel like they are now, whether it's more freedom, m- higher expectations, or just more autonomy and [00:10:00] opportunity because of AI, is that they now have the opportunity to speak differently into that planning conversation than maybe they have i- in the past.
And honestly, that's, that's part of the, what our hope with this report was too, is that, you know, you would take what we found here as a leverage point to go back to your own leadership team, where maybe you were perceived internally as, as, uh, much more functional and operational to say, like, "This is where the role's going.
These are the kinds of insights that I have, and that really matters for the kind of decision-making that we need to do at, at this point." So, you know, uh, my hope is that then we see kind of the design work, the, the, of, of the program, the operational work that holds steady or becomes more operationalized with AI, but it gives that freedom and that opportunity to then bring a more strategic perspective to the decisions that are made, which is important, especially as companies are moving more towards always-on planning too, which is probably something else we'll talk about as
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. I mean,
well,
what you're saying though is not [00:11:00] necessarily that people are gonna move from revenue operations to strategy, but operations is going to become strategic. So like the, the operational expertise is gonna become more strategic as you start im- im- executing in cycles, which is different than the way I was thinking about it
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that it's, it's hard, right? Like, 'cause I think, uh, we went in looking... Anytime you try to define a particular function in one particular way, like you're just gonna have variance across how companies call it
And, and the reality is like, uh, we-- so we had a webinar on this with, with folks that, uh, from Dell and from AWS last week, and, you know, neither of their, these giant global companies and these people who are managing like 18 to 25,000 reps, like they are not technically managing a revenue operations function. So to me, so but to me, what I think about is like, what are the skills required around these business processes and how are those changing? So I, I think we could talk about the, the, [00:12:00] the way that companies define this, which is fairly loose right now, which I, uh, part of this is also arguing for more clarity and precision around defining RevOps more clearly
for companies, especially as they're trying to grow and develop it over time.
Like, do we have clarity on what the job's responsibility is? Do we have clarity on how that should be perceived and operationalized inside the organization? Like, those are all what I hope become good outcomes of this. But in general, the function itself and the type of work that's being done is so strategic to your point, like it's a flip in the role hopefully is perceived more strategic, but at least the people that are doing that kind of work will have more opportunity to be doing the strategic aspects of the decision making, not just the operational functional pieces of it.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. So that's one angle is potentially you just, you're forced into being strategic. You're not forced, but you evolve into being strategic because operations is strategic.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yes
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: thought, and I think is still a valid one, is potentially that operational work goes down due to... And I think a lot of people who are listening would think the same thing.
Operational work goes down and then stra- [00:13:00] strategic work goes up because I have capacity to think more strategically. If we pull that thread a little bit,
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: would you see, like over time, like, do you think like you would start to see a new role form, where you'd have a revenue strategy leader that you would bring, that you would bring on in a world where an operator would con- keep doing the operator work or would potentially, like they wouldn't...
Would they even have the personality or the skill set to be able to do like a revenue strategy leader role?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
Uh, I, I think that gets a little bit to what I was mentioning a moment ago with it, where there's a lack of precision in what the actual function is so that, so that company could say like, "Hey, do we have RevOps that looks like X and we build it this way?" Like, that, that... those capabilities are going to be there, especially if the, the revenue plan becomes even more important.
Like, those are going to be things that happen regardless of what, how you define it. To me, you know, there's a, there is a broader, more global type, type problem here is that w- [00:14:00] w- and I, and I probably have perpetuated this over the last year and a half, where we've been doing more of work around the revenue leader or the revenue strategy leader, because i- in many ways we say that to be inclusive of all different kinds of roles and the kinds of functions that fit under with it.
But when you're doing that, and there, it, it was... the same is true with, like, the, the, the, the title or the name go-to-market strategy. Like, what a com- what, what one company means by that might look different than what another company means, but we all say it. So to me, it, it could lead to the rise of a, of a new role, like a revenue strategy leader, it, it, it kind of depends on how a company defines it.
If, if RevOps isn't, or whatever you're calling RevOps, isn't building the kind of capabilities that we're talking about, you know, that could be absorbed under a revenue strategy team, which I think is very valid and could be, could be real and could be helpful. It also, I could see it evolving into a finance team too, right?
That's kind of involved in
that strategic word. Like I, I'm feeling more and more convinced in the last couple months that is an even [00:15:00] greater connection point between revenue and finance that needs to be forged, um, and, and being kind of moved into level playing fields, and part of that is because there's an evolution of revenue leadership that's moving to the C-suite, where they are treated more as peers. I also think some of the things that we're talking about, like a lot of the finance decisions that used to come kind of top down, here's, we've got a, a target for the year, we've got a budget for the year, revenue leader go do something with that and come back to me with, with the
plan or whatever. Like, the fact that RevOps has capacity and the operational data and the insights which AI is helping with, like, that actually informs the plan and might inform the target and things at the finance level that they may not have had before, to thinking about what's realistic and how we might capture, uh, the revenue that we're actually budgeting for.
So to me, I think this is, this kind of a, that's kind of a roundabout way of maybe ask- answering your question, but to me, it's, it's leading to the rise necessary... not necessarily of a new role, but to where [00:16:00] these strategic functions kind of fit in terms of the organizational hierarchy, and it could be absorbed based on where those capabilities are actually built first.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. Now, you also have, you also approached this from a, a different angle when you talked about, in the report you talked about the, the readiness gap, and I thought that was really interesting in that there was also a clear gap and, and evidence that companies are not investing in closing that gap
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Do you think that's gonna change where they'll start investing in closing it or do you think they'll just evolve it into something new and they'll just repla- eventually as, as this gap closes out and goes away, they'll just, uh, out arising from the ashes will be this new revenue strategy role?
We talked a little bit about even potentially having like an operation strategy. Like how, how does that play out based on-- 'Cause it seems like with the, the readiness evaluation, you've got a whole bunch of things that need to be fixed and really no interest from companies to fix it
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah, no, it
it's a great point. And, and, you [00:17:00] know, be true to the data that we here, like this is coming from the operational leadership, primarily the people who are seeing the
role self-reporting like so-- which I-- is, is a valid way when you can do it at scale, right? Like, so we can actually get insights here, I, I believe in what we found here. But, you know, this is, this is a group of people that, uh, uh, that I hope are looking at their job and saying that, "We see the future of this role evolving, and we want to be able to grow into these new skills that we see or that are being asked of us by our organizations, there's this tension in our, our confidence in our, our skills and our abilities to get there," right?
Like, so that's when we talk about that readiness gap, it's that gap between where we see our companies investing and where we see maybe conversation going and where we feel about those capabilities and those skills today. Uh, to me, the-- importantly, though, like the companies that are outperforming their peers, like we striped this data
by those that are hitting their [00:18:00] targets, and that's not just like their quotas, it's their revenue targets at the organizational level.
Like, those are investing significantly more in these kinds of new roles and new capabilities than, than other ones. So
to me, uh, the-- it's not necessarily an experience, uh, capability. It's, it's a de-deliberate development and, and leadership, you know, uh, investment to say, "This is how we're developing and building our, our teams."
Um, I, I I feel I, I have a soft spot for the revenue operations function 'cause I think it's, it's, it, it creates clarity and has the... In the same way that chief revenue officer or chief commercial officer could kind of bring together poor organizational design that we've boxed ourselves into over the last 20 years.
Like, I think RevOps has a similar role, and I see those two as hand in hand. You, a, a revenue leader at the C-suite kind of level, a chief revenue officer, chief commercial, and a, and a revenue operations role that are kind of working hand in hand in, in different ways. So, you know, I, I, I hope that this comes as good news for [00:19:00] both RevOps practitioners and RevOps leaders, it could, it could emerge in different types of, of roles, and that's, that's the interesting part of this is who knows?
Like might- that might be that innovative thing that somebody says like, "Hey, this is our way to evolve and get an edge in a way that becomes a more industry trend over time." So we'll
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. It's like, it's all there for you, you just got to invest in it and doing it right now, there's a gap between that investment, but capabilities are there, like interest is there, kind of do it.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yes
Yes of our conversation, you talked about kind of how sports had got into analytics and when the few company- when the few sports teams got out in front of that, they really excelled.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: One of the key insights in the, the market focus section of the report was that those who had like AI specialists or data specialists performed well above like what, what those who didn't have. So I think this kind of like when you s- when you think about that, does that mean that we're on the beginning [00:20:00] stages?
We're at the beginning stages where when you have... There's only a few companies that are really doing that, so they're on the forefront, and eventually, like you run this report in a year from now, many of these organizations are gonna catch up and it's gonna be the innovation of that person rather than the role
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
I think that, that to me that's, that's a really good read on it. And, you know, if, if we were to pair this data collection with a bunch of qualitative inter-interviews too, we might get, get more clarity on that, either, either towards your, your perspective, which is also my perspective or, or maybe a different view on it.
But from my experience and what I would say, you know, outside of the data we do, this does feel like one of those areas that if, if I'm linking between what AI enables us to do and what kind of insights it provides us, is like, hey, we've, been asking for more data for for, for 15, 20 years. We've got more data than we know what to do with.
We've got AI that can help us make sense of it in a new way. And so somebody-- a, a data scientist's role, you know, is not necessarily new new, [00:21:00] but new- maybe new to the RevOps function for us to say like, "Hey, how do, how do we make sense of this?" And I do think that's companies are, are gaining an advantage clearly in the data.
I think it was like, you know, 52% of companies that, that have a, a data- dedicated data scientist are beating their revenue targets and, and these kinds of, you know, their AI engineer or somebody who's focused on the automation parts of AI, like those are significantly outperforming their peers that-- versus those that don't have it. so my, my feeling on this, and I think with the data support at least the way I would justify it, is that, that it is a probably a shorter term advantage right now, like you described. Um, anything AI related feels like it's got a three-month horizon advantage in my in my view. May-maybe less, who knows, right?
So, um, what we might learn in my-- I don't, I don't think those roles are going away. I do think that is going to become more common.
Um, I mean will have them. If,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: if, if the, yeah
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Everyone's going to have them, but does-- [00:22:00] is that really something that we can, uh, associate with a company that's beating their revenue target versus not? Maybe, maybe that'll look different in six months or a year.
That's-- I, I would love to do this report again in a year and, and see kind of how that evolution has, has happened. Um, what was Interesting
about that too is that, you know, there was kind of a, an equal pairing of RevOps generalists that are s- that are in companies that beat their revenue target and companies that, that missed their revenue target.
So there's still... It's not like it's we're flipping that on its head already. Like, there are still folks that would, would see themselves as generalists. I think that role, my, my assumption is that is where we'll probably see a little bit more of a shift. We'll see more on who are-- There's, there were some titles that we looked at or kind of emerged out of our data, like revenue planning or strategy lead, revenue systems administrators.
Like, I think we might start to see those roles change a little bit, where there is a specific role that kind of sits above operational functions that's, that's by name and by function, then more responsible for some of these decisions than somebody who's just kind of a generalist over everything. So [00:23:00] to me, the, the specialization is probably the era that we're in right now because just companies are looking at very specific skills that a generalist probably doesn't have. Maybe even pulling from different functions or different, you know, different industries that, that,
where that's more common. Um, but that, that's, that's Curtis's interpretation of this, not necessarily what we, what we're able to find or report in the report. How do, how do you see it? Does that, is that kind of a similar evolution that you see?
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Well, yeah, I can totally... And I think I wouldn't underestimate the generalist ability to translate what a data scientist does and what a, what an AI specialist does into true value, right? So if you're a rockstar generalist RevOps person, and you're putting someone with extreme expertise in certain areas that have, are, that are of value, that isn't necessarily gonna drive results.
You need somebody who understands how all this stuff works that can translate it into results. So I, I would... Now, that's very hard to, to extract from a, from a survey, but I would bet that if you have th- those companies that are seeing results have a generalist up front that's translating that into [00:24:00] value rather than, like, an AI, like, or a data scientist coming in and, and, like, just churning out a whole bunch of shit that is...
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: a great point. That's a great point. So you still need that generalist function to take advantage of that specialist knowledge and
capability. That's-- I think that's a great point. But, but to the point, like when you think about the, the evolving leadership role of this function, like that generalist may not be seen as an operator type role.
That generalist might be-- might elevate more into the leadership type capabilities. They're-- So they're going to have to have a unique point of view and ability to understand, maybe not at a practical functional level to a, to the,
to the way a data scientist operates, but they do need to understand what questions to ask to help shape that context for the data scientist, and then how to translate what they're finding into something That means something more at an executive level.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: That makes total sense. Okay, so we've covered a lot of stuff on this report. If you had one... If you're a CRO reading this, what's one insight that, or one finding that you think is, like, critical for them to understand and [00:25:00] understand in a way that they could translate it to impact in their business?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: I-if it's okay, I'm, I'm gonna take this in two ways. I wanna, I
wanna Speak to the leadership and I wanna speak to the, the frontline practitioner as well, because I
think there's something for both of those. When I, when I think about the practitioner, which is again, where the majority of this data came from, is that there, there are so much in here that I think my, my hope is that it's empowering to them and, and, and gives them license to go build the strategic perception of their function inside their own organization.
So my, my-- what I would hope they would take from it is like find, find a data point, find something that allows you to go have a m- a, a stronger conversation and, and, or the confidence to go have a stronger conversation. And then take something, take one analysis maybe that you normally send as a report or, or something you might...
And then bring it to your leader, not as a, as a reporting the news or the weather, but bring it as a recommendation that you'd stand behind. And to me, if I go back to, some of the capabilities in the report, both in the, kinda AI [00:26:00] governance or the, AI output piece, and also the executive communication, which we, didn't talk about that, but there was a huge gap in those capabilities that, these, these practitioners saw. You're kind of building both of those gap skills when you do that, because you're having to take something that maybe was perceived as operational previously, find the insight that leads to a recommendation, and then go present that to a leadership team as a way of, kind of building your strategic contribution to the organization.
So to me, that, that's one thing I'd say that's a natural practitioner. From a, from a leadership perspective, take, take an audit of, of where your team's time is actually going right now. And then to me, it's like when you think about how you are staffing for the role of RevOps, that's, that's-- that would be the place where you'd say like, "I hope that there's something in here that says like, these are the skills that we should be building. are we staffing this today and where are the gaps?" And so that's, to me, there's a pretty natural pattern of the kinds of skills and the kind of capabilities that you should have and that map to leading [00:27:00] organizations. And my hope is that this is fuel for that conversation to either repurpose people that you're saying like, "Hey, these are people who are typically operational.
We're start-- maybe we're considering new investments in AI or something else to help get some of that operational, uh, uh, load taken off their plates, and then we're trying to figure out how do we upskill the current people." So, you know, I think there's, there's a lot in here and, and folks could download that, uh, the report, and we'd be happy to share that with, with any folks that are listening to this as well. But there, there's a leadership angle and a practitioner angle that I think would be really important.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: That's awesome. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, about you. Like, we... You, like, you've been, you, you've been on before. We've talked a little bit about kind of you growing up. But, like, one thing that I, that I've really admired about, that I admire about you is you, you do this really... You do a really good job of blending the...
And it's in your, it's in kind of the way that you've worked in your career, blending, like, practical business experience for right now, but enriched by a lot of academic rigor and, and analysis. Could you see that as a kid? Like, as a kid, like, what did that [00:28:00] translate? Or what's the origin story to that dynamic?
'Cause I think those, to a large extent, are... I don't think those people are the same a lot
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Hmm. I think, you know, maybe this is the cliché answer, but I've always just had a curiosity for how things work, and sometimes that's to a detriment. Like when you, when you-- I remember like there was some, some science fair project that I did in middle school and it, and it had kind of an engineering angle to it, and it's like I could just never-- I could never get the science worked out in my head about how that thing was working.
I have to go back and remember what it was, but it was like, it was almost demotivating to me because I-- it was almost too much of a black box, right?
But that curiosity in areas, uh, that has fueled me to go deeper and to kind of balance the perspective of like, what does this mean for reality with how these things work?
Like that, that to me is what's propelled me into the academic world. Now, I, I think anybody that knows academics knows that there are some serious challenges that they're facing right now that are, [00:29:00] you know, come hand in hand with the rigor that's required to, to publish and to
study in the academic world.
Just takes more time. It takes more rigor. Uh, that translates, one, into, you know, when things are moving as fast as they are right now, and I think revenue's a great place to talk about that, like what's, what was valuable or helpful t-today, like, you know, is, is gonna be different in six months. And in a, in a academic review process that takes a year or, or 18 months to get a, a paper into press that actually helps us understand something more clearly,
like assuming that it was relevant, which, uh, could be another conversation, but like assuming that it was relevant, it might be outdated by that point
or, or we might have new, new things kind of conflating what we're finding.
So I've always tried to find that balance between having a healthy curiosity about what's happening, the-- some chops and some ability to study it maybe in more rigorous ways than, than is normally looked at, but then also thinking about what makes it practical. I, I'll tell you, too, though, like what, what keeps me going on this is that the more I get into this and, and [00:30:00] you'd say like, "Oh Yeah
this is somebody who's been in academic world and has been in revenue
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: like they must know it a lot."
I feel like the-- I know-- I feel like I know less now than I have at any other point in
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Seriously
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: like, like you know, just like you just realize that gap between like, oh, that's really what how the world operates and that's how revenue leadership is operating. Like that gap actually grows wider as I become older and, and learn more things.
So, uh, that, that-- my curiosity fuels me to try to close that gap, but in academics gives me a, a way and a, and a network of people who are also interested in these topics to go explore that with. Um, but my hope at the end of the day is that the work that I do is directionally and practically helpful for the people that are doing the job.
And if I ever steer off of that, then, then I'm probably gonna lose interest and, and my impact is probably gonna be a lot less.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah, and you can see the value in, in how you combine those together. Let me ask one more thing. If you're, if you're, um, an aca- if you're taking... If you're doing your MBA, if you're taking certifications, if [00:31:00] you're... What's one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's in an academic, which can be very theoretical
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: but valuable in its own way?
Like, what advice would you give them on how to make the most out of that and translating it into kind of real world, real world results?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: What-- The-- Uh, let me-- There's one recommendation that I'd have that I realize is going to go counter to the incentive systems that exist in industry. So, and to me, it's, it's around the MBA, to be honest. And so, you know, I, I have been involved with, with academic MBA programs, and I realize, like-- And, and I've been involved in industry where, like, you get your MBA, and there's a, there's a real earning bump and a, and a, and a job and career advancement bump that that gives you.
And that-- there is something to be said for it in that regard, uh, that we could discuss about the incentive systems around that in, in organizations if it's actually valuable to the role or, or kind of artificial. But there are-- What I've noticed is there are a lot of people who jump [00:32:00] from undergraduate to back to an MBA pretty either directly coming out of
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah or, or, you know, after a couple years, which hear me, I don't wanna criticize anybody that is doing that or has done that, and it's very different for everybody.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: But you're talking about what's-- what could lead to the greatest impact. To me, the greatest impact of an MBA or, or whether it's an online MBA, in-person MBA, executive MBA, there's lots of options today, and I've been involved in, in all of those and know that there's different strengths in all of them. But the greatest value is where you can take People that have, kind of understood the w- the, the world and, and can kind of offer some generalizations, some, some theoretical things that can kind of help fuel the way that you think and, and help you develop as a leader or as a strategist, as a thinker, you pair that with real-world experience that, that you have.
Like, so, you know, I think
about It'd be a very different experience for me-- And this is part of why I delayed doing a PhD, is because I knew [00:33:00] if I started that kind of in this progression of undergraduate, MBA, PhD, without the real-world experience, like, uh, then I-- What-- That, that-- The world of, of academia would be less valuable because
I, I wouldn't have insight into what's meaningful and how these things work on the ground.
I feel-- I hope that that's an area where I've been able to add value, is like I'm,
I'm living these things and I'm talking to people every day that do this. So when we're exploring work that we might want to study, it's like nobody's gonna care about that or that's, that's, that's something that was relevant five years ago. Um, so t- so, you know, there's, there's that practical versus theoretical balance that's required. And so I would say if you're considering an MBA, that's super important, but make sure you're kind of pairing that with the opportunity to have the experience that's gonna make that valuable. I also will say, like, uh, the, the may-maybe MBA programs wouldn't like me for saying this, but, you know, a great part of the benefit of it is the network of people that you connect with
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Totally. 100%
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: have-- you have said, [00:34:00] "Hey, this is valuable for me to take a pause or to run in parallel with my career, now I'm connected with a, a dozen people or, or a f- a few dozen people," or whatever it might be in that program. Like, that should be part of your career development too, is the building of your network in that. So,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: No doubt
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: I'd see all these things as valuable, I-- and it will continue to be valuable, but there are some, some things that you could throw into how you pursue it that I think make it even more valuable.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Awesome. Awesome. Curtis, always great catching up. Thanks
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Hey,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: joining
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: thanks for having me, Seth. Really appreciate it as always
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Right
Speaker 2: And that wraps up another episode. Thank you for joining. For show notes and other episodes, visit us@innovativerevenueleader.ai. The Innovative Revenue Leader is sponsored by Sandler, a Trilia company. Sandler provides top corporate sales and business development training while empowering sales professionals and leaders to master the graph of selling at all levels.
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Innovative Revenue Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Mars. Join me as we deliver practical insights to help B2B CROs Find new and innovative ways to grow in this fast changing environment. The Innovative Revenue Leader is sponsored by Sandler, a triad company, empowering sales professionals and leaders to master the craft of selling at all levels.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. So my guest today is a, is a sales strategist, PhD professor, and research leader. He spent over a decade as an adjunct professor of marketing, sales, and management at Baylor University, all while simultaneously building his career in the corporate world. He has shaped sales strategies for Fortune 100 companies, including roles as a managing director of strategic sales programs at Oracle and as a senior advisor of CROs and revenue leaders in Gartner sales practice.
He earned his PhD in marketing and sales from Oklahoma State University and, and is, is [00:01:00] a po-postdoctoral research fellow at Texas A&M. His current position is as head of research and insight at Varicent, and he's a person that's been on the show multiple times. I always love having him on. Curtis, great to have you back.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Thanks for having me. This is, this is one of my favorite places to hang out, so to, to get the invite again, I feel honored
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah, yeah. You and me both. Like, you keep saying yes, so I keep inviting you.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Works for me
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: but I mean, a lot of the reasons, I mean, the reasons why you're coming on are because of the insights you're generating, the information that, that you're working with. You're constantly putting out really cool and interesting research, and, and I think the reason you're on this time is, is really no exception.
Before we jump into that, I just wanna go through the question. You've answered it multiple times, so it'll actually be really cool to go back and see how you answered these questions over time. But, like, as of right now, in this moment, if you're a CRO, what's the most innovative thing that you're seeing in B- in, in B2B?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Well, let me, uh, I guess innovative is in the eyes of the beholder. And, [00:02:00] uh, so maybe there's a, there's a couple things that I'll call out that, that were interesting to me, and they relate to, uh, the topic that we're gonna be discussing today. And, you know, it's the beginning of the end o- NBA season, the beginning of, uh, the NHL season, so, and the end of, uh, Major League Baseball.
And so, you know, we're, we're watching all these sorts of things, and I saw a great, uh, study or article from Ravelia Labs a, a little while ago that was talking about how sports analytics, uh, you know, the, the, the payoff of these roles that have kind of e- evolved over time. And so if you look at, you know, over the last 10, 15 years, were hiring data scientists.
You know, this is kind of coming out of the Moneyball era, and, and they really saw this bump in win rates over, over that period of time. Um, but in the NBA, I think what they kind of reported on is that where everybody started hiring for these roles, that advantage that they have really started dropping.
And so,
you know, we're gonna be talking about RevOps as a, as a function, but what's interesting to me about this, again, whether you think about this innovatively or not, is that it's [00:03:00] really important to stay at kind of the forefront of these, these trends and these ideas that give you a competitive edge.
But the reality is that that advantage will go, in many ways, in many cases, to who's kind of building it first and willing to experiment first, and then to how you use that best over time. So there, there is a shelf life to some of these things. So I, I just like looking at it through the context of, of the sports world, 'cause I do think there's a lot of parallels, but I thought that was interesting as we think about the evolution of the, the RevOps roles and new functions as to how these parallels in, in sports are kind of seeing this trail off now of some of these roles and the impact that they're having.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. So I mean, I-- Translating that, you're basically saying, look, the most innovative thing is that person you have on your team that keeps pushing the frontier and connecting this new technology to value in your business. Like, that is where the innovation's happening. It's no longer about like super cool, like amazing new technology coming out that's already here, but it's about the person at the forefront that can take that cool technology and connect it into the value proposition for [00:04:00] each of the businesses
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: That's a great way of summarizing it. And to me, it's, it's that balance of like a pulse on reality and, and being able to know like from, from being at the front lines to some extent, whether that's truly front lines in the sales w- world or in front lines kind of from a leadership perspective of knowing like, "Hey, these are-- this is where things are moving.
This is kind of the reality on the ground." But then having that creativity and that ability to see around the corner a little bit and say like, "Hey, if we start to push a little bit more here, I think there's a, an edge that we have." And that's, you know, that, that's where I feel like the best leaders kind of find that.
And data-- Whether it was data analysis or, or even kind of some of these emerging roles in, in the B2B world, uh, the forward, what is it? Forward deployed engineers? Is that the
latest, uh, the world or whatever it is. Like we're just thinking about how can we do these little things. It may not be the big flash, you know, splashy thing, but those little things that give us an edge for a period, we've always gotta be kind of thinking about up-leveling.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. So, so if we go back to kind of the report that was released, you, you released the, your 2026 RevOps Skills Index. [00:05:00] Was that the catalyst of why you wanted to release a report like this, was trying to help companies identify that person and those things on the frontier and, and what that looks like in, in practice?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
I mean, so at Varicent, you know, we work with the people that are running the, the day-to-day operations. You could call them RevOps. I'm sure we'll talk about that in general and kind of the evolution of the role and the titles even like that over time. And so, you know, we have this front row seat to the work that is changing.
We're thinking about that from a product perspective, and my role, while it isn't directly engaged with, with the product and the technology itself, like, uh, I'm at the front line talking with folks all the time about what's happening in their, their business and trying to think about how we can use data, how we can use insight to help them make sense of what they're doing and, and help them have that little uplift and see around the corner a different way.
And so as we're thinking about this evolution of their work and the skills and the expectations for AI and all these shifts and if they're ready or not,
and we're also feeling this [00:06:00] pressure that we know that they're experiencing to grow efficiently. Like,
you know, you've got your budgets are under more scrutiny, you-- with, with AI or otherwise, headcounts being coming harder to justify to get return on AI, you've got to raise targets.
Like, that's just a lot of pressure to grow, not just growth at all costs, but really efficient growth. And so we have a, a, I believe, a fairly over the... If you've looked at some of the data and the, the work that we've done over the last six to eight months, like w-we would really believe the decisions that sit inside this broader revenue plan are the re- the probably most undervalued, to some extent, lever for helping grow more efficiently.
We, we think about RevOps at, at the heart of that. We think about territory decisions and, and capacity decisions and quota decisions and comp decisions, these kinds of things, which is, you know, admittedly, that is the world that Varicent plays in. So but I, I, I think there is data, good data that support now that that's where there's a lot of potential that's being, uh, kind of untapped in, in right now, where companies can kind of get that growth.
So that is where this came from, is this [00:07:00] evolution that we're seeing of the RevOps as a function, but also a lack of clarity around what that role is and what the change really looks like.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. So it's like, like one of the findings was this like going from, with rev operations shifting from operations to, to strategy, and that, that's somewhat clarifying in the report, right? 'Cause when people think about value, they do think about strategy, although that could be a little bit crazy because usually a lot of the value is put to work in, in operations.
But I, I love the idea of the shift. I just wonder if it's something that'll be valued in the long term. So right now, revenue operations is valuable because they understand how to make a business run, and a CRO really doesn't, and honestly shouldn't. Their job is to go get sales numbers. So there's a unique value in a rev ops leader in that they understand the inner workings.
If that's no longer needed, where does a rev ops leader's capabilities contribute to a strategy? Like where does [00:08:00] their expertise like add value if, if right now a lot of it is in how do I operationally execute, and that may be automated with AI?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah, it's a, it's a good point. And there's a lot in that question that, to unpack. One thing I would, that towards the end of it, you say, you know, if these capabilities are no longer needed, to me, what I will say one thing that this, the report kind of illuminated for us is that the operational piece of it, it's not that it's going away.
So it's, you know, it's, it's that it's
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Fair enough
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: now, and I think we, it, I don't know that that's revolutionary either. I mean, I think the, the core value proposition of
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Sure
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: been talking about is how do we automate, how do we get more efficient at some of the things that in operational type tasks are a part of that.
So I think in general, the, the role in rev ops from a leadership perspective around operations is, is, is not that that's their primary anymore, um, but it's, it's how do we manage different things around that. And so I, I will say also though that, you know, my, the people that I speak to in, in rev ops and in compensation and these kinds of roles, it's like they probably didn't [00:09:00] get into those roles to be operators and builders of reports.
Like, that probably isn't what they wanted initially. So I think any time that we've talked about how do you make these what we believe are very strategic kind of functions actually have a more strategic at the t- seat at the table, like that's, that's welcome for, for most people that are in those roles.
Now, I think that the, we'll probably talk about some of the discomfort or the lack of confidence right now that, that those folks might feel, but in general, for that role to be becoming more strategic is, is a good thing. And I would say what then becomes the strategic asset for that, that leader then is their operating knowledge.
Like that's, that's at least as a starting point. They have been involved in how every quota decision, territory decision, compensation decision, these kinds of things, how those played out. Nobody else that's probably involved in planning has that kind of point of view. But what is changing now is I feel like they are now, whether it's more freedom, m- higher expectations, or just more autonomy and [00:10:00] opportunity because of AI, is that they now have the opportunity to speak differently into that planning conversation than maybe they have i- in the past.
And honestly, that's, that's part of the, what our hope with this report was too, is that, you know, you would take what we found here as a leverage point to go back to your own leadership team, where maybe you were perceived internally as, as, uh, much more functional and operational to say, like, "This is where the role's going.
These are the kinds of insights that I have, and that really matters for the kind of decision-making that we need to do at, at this point." So, you know, uh, my hope is that then we see kind of the design work, the, the, of, of the program, the operational work that holds steady or becomes more operationalized with AI, but it gives that freedom and that opportunity to then bring a more strategic perspective to the decisions that are made, which is important, especially as companies are moving more towards always-on planning too, which is probably something else we'll talk about as
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. I mean,
well,
what you're saying though is not [00:11:00] necessarily that people are gonna move from revenue operations to strategy, but operations is going to become strategic. So like the, the operational expertise is gonna become more strategic as you start im- im- executing in cycles, which is different than the way I was thinking about it
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that it's, it's hard, right? Like, 'cause I think, uh, we went in looking... Anytime you try to define a particular function in one particular way, like you're just gonna have variance across how companies call it
And, and the reality is like, uh, we-- so we had a webinar on this with, with folks that, uh, from Dell and from AWS last week, and, you know, neither of their, these giant global companies and these people who are managing like 18 to 25,000 reps, like they are not technically managing a revenue operations function. So to me, so but to me, what I think about is like, what are the skills required around these business processes and how are those changing? So I, I think we could talk about the, the, [00:12:00] the way that companies define this, which is fairly loose right now, which I, uh, part of this is also arguing for more clarity and precision around defining RevOps more clearly
for companies, especially as they're trying to grow and develop it over time.
Like, do we have clarity on what the job's responsibility is? Do we have clarity on how that should be perceived and operationalized inside the organization? Like, those are all what I hope become good outcomes of this. But in general, the function itself and the type of work that's being done is so strategic to your point, like it's a flip in the role hopefully is perceived more strategic, but at least the people that are doing that kind of work will have more opportunity to be doing the strategic aspects of the decision making, not just the operational functional pieces of it.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. So that's one angle is potentially you just, you're forced into being strategic. You're not forced, but you evolve into being strategic because operations is strategic.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yes
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: thought, and I think is still a valid one, is potentially that operational work goes down due to... And I think a lot of people who are listening would think the same thing.
Operational work goes down and then stra- [00:13:00] strategic work goes up because I have capacity to think more strategically. If we pull that thread a little bit,
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: would you see, like over time, like, do you think like you would start to see a new role form, where you'd have a revenue strategy leader that you would bring, that you would bring on in a world where an operator would con- keep doing the operator work or would potentially, like they wouldn't...
Would they even have the personality or the skill set to be able to do like a revenue strategy leader role?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
Uh, I, I think that gets a little bit to what I was mentioning a moment ago with it, where there's a lack of precision in what the actual function is so that, so that company could say like, "Hey, do we have RevOps that looks like X and we build it this way?" Like, that, that... those capabilities are going to be there, especially if the, the revenue plan becomes even more important.
Like, those are going to be things that happen regardless of what, how you define it. To me, you know, there's a, there is a broader, more global type, type problem here is that w- [00:14:00] w- and I, and I probably have perpetuated this over the last year and a half, where we've been doing more of work around the revenue leader or the revenue strategy leader, because i- in many ways we say that to be inclusive of all different kinds of roles and the kinds of functions that fit under with it.
But when you're doing that, and there, it, it was... the same is true with, like, the, the, the, the title or the name go-to-market strategy. Like, what a com- what, what one company means by that might look different than what another company means, but we all say it. So to me, it, it could lead to the rise of a, of a new role, like a revenue strategy leader, it, it, it kind of depends on how a company defines it.
If, if RevOps isn't, or whatever you're calling RevOps, isn't building the kind of capabilities that we're talking about, you know, that could be absorbed under a revenue strategy team, which I think is very valid and could be, could be real and could be helpful. It also, I could see it evolving into a finance team too, right?
That's kind of involved in
that strategic word. Like I, I'm feeling more and more convinced in the last couple months that is an even [00:15:00] greater connection point between revenue and finance that needs to be forged, um, and, and being kind of moved into level playing fields, and part of that is because there's an evolution of revenue leadership that's moving to the C-suite, where they are treated more as peers. I also think some of the things that we're talking about, like a lot of the finance decisions that used to come kind of top down, here's, we've got a, a target for the year, we've got a budget for the year, revenue leader go do something with that and come back to me with, with the
plan or whatever. Like, the fact that RevOps has capacity and the operational data and the insights which AI is helping with, like, that actually informs the plan and might inform the target and things at the finance level that they may not have had before, to thinking about what's realistic and how we might capture, uh, the revenue that we're actually budgeting for.
So to me, I think this is, this kind of a, that's kind of a roundabout way of maybe ask- answering your question, but to me, it's, it's leading to the rise necessary... not necessarily of a new role, but to where [00:16:00] these strategic functions kind of fit in terms of the organizational hierarchy, and it could be absorbed based on where those capabilities are actually built first.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Got it. Now, you also have, you also approached this from a, a different angle when you talked about, in the report you talked about the, the readiness gap, and I thought that was really interesting in that there was also a clear gap and, and evidence that companies are not investing in closing that gap
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Do you think that's gonna change where they'll start investing in closing it or do you think they'll just evolve it into something new and they'll just repla- eventually as, as this gap closes out and goes away, they'll just, uh, out arising from the ashes will be this new revenue strategy role?
We talked a little bit about even potentially having like an operation strategy. Like how, how does that play out based on-- 'Cause it seems like with the, the readiness evaluation, you've got a whole bunch of things that need to be fixed and really no interest from companies to fix it
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah, no, it
it's a great point. And, and, you [00:17:00] know, be true to the data that we here, like this is coming from the operational leadership, primarily the people who are seeing the
role self-reporting like so-- which I-- is, is a valid way when you can do it at scale, right? Like, so we can actually get insights here, I, I believe in what we found here. But, you know, this is, this is a group of people that, uh, uh, that I hope are looking at their job and saying that, "We see the future of this role evolving, and we want to be able to grow into these new skills that we see or that are being asked of us by our organizations, there's this tension in our, our confidence in our, our skills and our abilities to get there," right?
Like, so that's when we talk about that readiness gap, it's that gap between where we see our companies investing and where we see maybe conversation going and where we feel about those capabilities and those skills today. Uh, to me, the-- importantly, though, like the companies that are outperforming their peers, like we striped this data
by those that are hitting their [00:18:00] targets, and that's not just like their quotas, it's their revenue targets at the organizational level.
Like, those are investing significantly more in these kinds of new roles and new capabilities than, than other ones. So
to me, uh, the-- it's not necessarily an experience, uh, capability. It's, it's a de-deliberate development and, and leadership, you know, uh, investment to say, "This is how we're developing and building our, our teams."
Um, I, I I feel I, I have a soft spot for the revenue operations function 'cause I think it's, it's, it, it creates clarity and has the... In the same way that chief revenue officer or chief commercial officer could kind of bring together poor organizational design that we've boxed ourselves into over the last 20 years.
Like, I think RevOps has a similar role, and I see those two as hand in hand. You, a, a revenue leader at the C-suite kind of level, a chief revenue officer, chief commercial, and a, and a revenue operations role that are kind of working hand in hand in, in different ways. So, you know, I, I, I hope that this comes as good news for [00:19:00] both RevOps practitioners and RevOps leaders, it could, it could emerge in different types of, of roles, and that's, that's the interesting part of this is who knows?
Like might- that might be that innovative thing that somebody says like, "Hey, this is our way to evolve and get an edge in a way that becomes a more industry trend over time." So we'll
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah. It's like, it's all there for you, you just got to invest in it and doing it right now, there's a gap between that investment, but capabilities are there, like interest is there, kind of do it.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yes
Yes of our conversation, you talked about kind of how sports had got into analytics and when the few company- when the few sports teams got out in front of that, they really excelled.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: One of the key insights in the, the market focus section of the report was that those who had like AI specialists or data specialists performed well above like what, what those who didn't have. So I think this kind of like when you s- when you think about that, does that mean that we're on the beginning [00:20:00] stages?
We're at the beginning stages where when you have... There's only a few companies that are really doing that, so they're on the forefront, and eventually, like you run this report in a year from now, many of these organizations are gonna catch up and it's gonna be the innovation of that person rather than the role
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
I think that, that to me that's, that's a really good read on it. And, you know, if, if we were to pair this data collection with a bunch of qualitative inter-interviews too, we might get, get more clarity on that, either, either towards your, your perspective, which is also my perspective or, or maybe a different view on it.
But from my experience and what I would say, you know, outside of the data we do, this does feel like one of those areas that if, if I'm linking between what AI enables us to do and what kind of insights it provides us, is like, hey, we've, been asking for more data for for, for 15, 20 years. We've got more data than we know what to do with.
We've got AI that can help us make sense of it in a new way. And so somebody-- a, a data scientist's role, you know, is not necessarily new new, [00:21:00] but new- maybe new to the RevOps function for us to say like, "Hey, how do, how do we make sense of this?" And I do think that's companies are, are gaining an advantage clearly in the data.
I think it was like, you know, 52% of companies that, that have a, a data- dedicated data scientist are beating their revenue targets and, and these kinds of, you know, their AI engineer or somebody who's focused on the automation parts of AI, like those are significantly outperforming their peers that-- versus those that don't have it. so my, my feeling on this, and I think with the data support at least the way I would justify it, is that, that it is a probably a shorter term advantage right now, like you described. Um, anything AI related feels like it's got a three-month horizon advantage in my in my view. May-maybe less, who knows, right?
So, um, what we might learn in my-- I don't, I don't think those roles are going away. I do think that is going to become more common.
Um, I mean will have them. If,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: if, if the, yeah
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Everyone's going to have them, but does-- [00:22:00] is that really something that we can, uh, associate with a company that's beating their revenue target versus not? Maybe, maybe that'll look different in six months or a year.
That's-- I, I would love to do this report again in a year and, and see kind of how that evolution has, has happened. Um, what was Interesting
about that too is that, you know, there was kind of a, an equal pairing of RevOps generalists that are s- that are in companies that beat their revenue target and companies that, that missed their revenue target.
So there's still... It's not like it's we're flipping that on its head already. Like, there are still folks that would, would see themselves as generalists. I think that role, my, my assumption is that is where we'll probably see a little bit more of a shift. We'll see more on who are-- There's, there were some titles that we looked at or kind of emerged out of our data, like revenue planning or strategy lead, revenue systems administrators.
Like, I think we might start to see those roles change a little bit, where there is a specific role that kind of sits above operational functions that's, that's by name and by function, then more responsible for some of these decisions than somebody who's just kind of a generalist over everything. So [00:23:00] to me, the, the specialization is probably the era that we're in right now because just companies are looking at very specific skills that a generalist probably doesn't have. Maybe even pulling from different functions or different, you know, different industries that, that,
where that's more common. Um, but that, that's, that's Curtis's interpretation of this, not necessarily what we, what we're able to find or report in the report. How do, how do you see it? Does that, is that kind of a similar evolution that you see?
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Well, yeah, I can totally... And I think I wouldn't underestimate the generalist ability to translate what a data scientist does and what a, what an AI specialist does into true value, right? So if you're a rockstar generalist RevOps person, and you're putting someone with extreme expertise in certain areas that have, are, that are of value, that isn't necessarily gonna drive results.
You need somebody who understands how all this stuff works that can translate it into results. So I, I would... Now, that's very hard to, to extract from a, from a survey, but I would bet that if you have th- those companies that are seeing results have a generalist up front that's translating that into [00:24:00] value rather than, like, an AI, like, or a data scientist coming in and, and, like, just churning out a whole bunch of shit that is...
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: a great point. That's a great point. So you still need that generalist function to take advantage of that specialist knowledge and
capability. That's-- I think that's a great point. But, but to the point, like when you think about the, the evolving leadership role of this function, like that generalist may not be seen as an operator type role.
That generalist might be-- might elevate more into the leadership type capabilities. They're-- So they're going to have to have a unique point of view and ability to understand, maybe not at a practical functional level to a, to the,
to the way a data scientist operates, but they do need to understand what questions to ask to help shape that context for the data scientist, and then how to translate what they're finding into something That means something more at an executive level.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: That makes total sense. Okay, so we've covered a lot of stuff on this report. If you had one... If you're a CRO reading this, what's one insight that, or one finding that you think is, like, critical for them to understand and [00:25:00] understand in a way that they could translate it to impact in their business?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: I-if it's okay, I'm, I'm gonna take this in two ways. I wanna, I
wanna Speak to the leadership and I wanna speak to the, the frontline practitioner as well, because I
think there's something for both of those. When I, when I think about the practitioner, which is again, where the majority of this data came from, is that there, there are so much in here that I think my, my hope is that it's empowering to them and, and, and gives them license to go build the strategic perception of their function inside their own organization.
So my, my-- what I would hope they would take from it is like find, find a data point, find something that allows you to go have a m- a, a stronger conversation and, and, or the confidence to go have a stronger conversation. And then take something, take one analysis maybe that you normally send as a report or, or something you might...
And then bring it to your leader, not as a, as a reporting the news or the weather, but bring it as a recommendation that you'd stand behind. And to me, if I go back to, some of the capabilities in the report, both in the, kinda AI [00:26:00] governance or the, AI output piece, and also the executive communication, which we, didn't talk about that, but there was a huge gap in those capabilities that, these, these practitioners saw. You're kind of building both of those gap skills when you do that, because you're having to take something that maybe was perceived as operational previously, find the insight that leads to a recommendation, and then go present that to a leadership team as a way of, kind of building your strategic contribution to the organization.
So to me, that, that's one thing I'd say that's a natural practitioner. From a, from a leadership perspective, take, take an audit of, of where your team's time is actually going right now. And then to me, it's like when you think about how you are staffing for the role of RevOps, that's, that's-- that would be the place where you'd say like, "I hope that there's something in here that says like, these are the skills that we should be building. are we staffing this today and where are the gaps?" And so that's, to me, there's a pretty natural pattern of the kinds of skills and the kind of capabilities that you should have and that map to leading [00:27:00] organizations. And my hope is that this is fuel for that conversation to either repurpose people that you're saying like, "Hey, these are people who are typically operational.
We're start-- maybe we're considering new investments in AI or something else to help get some of that operational, uh, uh, load taken off their plates, and then we're trying to figure out how do we upskill the current people." So, you know, I think there's, there's a lot in here and, and folks could download that, uh, the report, and we'd be happy to share that with, with any folks that are listening to this as well. But there, there's a leadership angle and a practitioner angle that I think would be really important.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: That's awesome. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, about you. Like, we... You, like, you've been, you, you've been on before. We've talked a little bit about kind of you growing up. But, like, one thing that I, that I've really admired about, that I admire about you is you, you do this really... You do a really good job of blending the...
And it's in your, it's in kind of the way that you've worked in your career, blending, like, practical business experience for right now, but enriched by a lot of academic rigor and, and analysis. Could you see that as a kid? Like, as a kid, like, what did that [00:28:00] translate? Or what's the origin story to that dynamic?
'Cause I think those, to a large extent, are... I don't think those people are the same a lot
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Hmm. I think, you know, maybe this is the cliché answer, but I've always just had a curiosity for how things work, and sometimes that's to a detriment. Like when you, when you-- I remember like there was some, some science fair project that I did in middle school and it, and it had kind of an engineering angle to it, and it's like I could just never-- I could never get the science worked out in my head about how that thing was working.
I have to go back and remember what it was, but it was like, it was almost demotivating to me because I-- it was almost too much of a black box, right?
But that curiosity in areas, uh, that has fueled me to go deeper and to kind of balance the perspective of like, what does this mean for reality with how these things work?
Like that, that to me is what's propelled me into the academic world. Now, I, I think anybody that knows academics knows that there are some serious challenges that they're facing right now that are, [00:29:00] you know, come hand in hand with the rigor that's required to, to publish and to
study in the academic world.
Just takes more time. It takes more rigor. Uh, that translates, one, into, you know, when things are moving as fast as they are right now, and I think revenue's a great place to talk about that, like what's, what was valuable or helpful t-today, like, you know, is, is gonna be different in six months. And in a, in a academic review process that takes a year or, or 18 months to get a, a paper into press that actually helps us understand something more clearly,
like assuming that it was relevant, which, uh, could be another conversation, but like assuming that it was relevant, it might be outdated by that point
or, or we might have new, new things kind of conflating what we're finding.
So I've always tried to find that balance between having a healthy curiosity about what's happening, the-- some chops and some ability to study it maybe in more rigorous ways than, than is normally looked at, but then also thinking about what makes it practical. I, I'll tell you, too, though, like what, what keeps me going on this is that the more I get into this and, and [00:30:00] you'd say like, "Oh Yeah
this is somebody who's been in academic world and has been in revenue
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: like they must know it a lot."
I feel like the-- I know-- I feel like I know less now than I have at any other point in
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Seriously
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: like, like you know, just like you just realize that gap between like, oh, that's really what how the world operates and that's how revenue leadership is operating. Like that gap actually grows wider as I become older and, and learn more things.
So, uh, that, that-- my curiosity fuels me to try to close that gap, but in academics gives me a, a way and a, and a network of people who are also interested in these topics to go explore that with. Um, but my hope at the end of the day is that the work that I do is directionally and practically helpful for the people that are doing the job.
And if I ever steer off of that, then, then I'm probably gonna lose interest and, and my impact is probably gonna be a lot less.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah, and you can see the value in, in how you combine those together. Let me ask one more thing. If you're, if you're, um, an aca- if you're taking... If you're doing your MBA, if you're taking certifications, if [00:31:00] you're... What's one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's in an academic, which can be very theoretical
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Yeah
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: but valuable in its own way?
Like, what advice would you give them on how to make the most out of that and translating it into kind of real world, real world results?
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: What-- The-- Uh, let me-- There's one recommendation that I'd have that I realize is going to go counter to the incentive systems that exist in industry. So, and to me, it's, it's around the MBA, to be honest. And so, you know, I, I have been involved with, with academic MBA programs, and I realize, like-- And, and I've been involved in industry where, like, you get your MBA, and there's a, there's a real earning bump and a, and a, and a job and career advancement bump that that gives you.
And that-- there is something to be said for it in that regard, uh, that we could discuss about the incentive systems around that in, in organizations if it's actually valuable to the role or, or kind of artificial. But there are-- What I've noticed is there are a lot of people who jump [00:32:00] from undergraduate to back to an MBA pretty either directly coming out of
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Yeah or, or, you know, after a couple years, which hear me, I don't wanna criticize anybody that is doing that or has done that, and it's very different for everybody.
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: But you're talking about what's-- what could lead to the greatest impact. To me, the greatest impact of an MBA or, or whether it's an online MBA, in-person MBA, executive MBA, there's lots of options today, and I've been involved in, in all of those and know that there's different strengths in all of them. But the greatest value is where you can take People that have, kind of understood the w- the, the world and, and can kind of offer some generalizations, some, some theoretical things that can kind of help fuel the way that you think and, and help you develop as a leader or as a strategist, as a thinker, you pair that with real-world experience that, that you have.
Like, so, you know, I think
about It'd be a very different experience for me-- And this is part of why I delayed doing a PhD, is because I knew [00:33:00] if I started that kind of in this progression of undergraduate, MBA, PhD, without the real-world experience, like, uh, then I-- What-- That, that-- The world of, of academia would be less valuable because
I, I wouldn't have insight into what's meaningful and how these things work on the ground.
I feel-- I hope that that's an area where I've been able to add value, is like I'm,
I'm living these things and I'm talking to people every day that do this. So when we're exploring work that we might want to study, it's like nobody's gonna care about that or that's, that's, that's something that was relevant five years ago. Um, so t- so, you know, there's, there's that practical versus theoretical balance that's required. And so I would say if you're considering an MBA, that's super important, but make sure you're kind of pairing that with the opportunity to have the experience that's gonna make that valuable. I also will say, like, uh, the, the may-maybe MBA programs wouldn't like me for saying this, but, you know, a great part of the benefit of it is the network of people that you connect with
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Totally. 100%
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: have-- you have said, [00:34:00] "Hey, this is valuable for me to take a pause or to run in parallel with my career, now I'm connected with a, a dozen people or, or a f- a few dozen people," or whatever it might be in that program. Like, that should be part of your career development too, is the building of your network in that. So,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: No doubt
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: I'd see all these things as valuable, I-- and it will continue to be valuable, but there are some, some things that you could throw into how you pursue it that I think make it even more valuable.
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Awesome. Awesome. Curtis, always great catching up. Thanks
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: Hey,
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: joining
curtis-schroeder_1_10-29-2026_111758: thanks for having me, Seth. Really appreciate it as always
seth-marrs_33_10-29-2026_121759: Right
Speaker 2: And that wraps up another episode. Thank you for joining. For show notes and other episodes, visit us@innovativerevenueleader.ai. The Innovative Revenue Leader is sponsored by Sandler, a Trilia company. Sandler provides top corporate sales and business development training while empowering sales professionals and leaders to master the graph of selling at all levels.
