00:00:00 [Speaker 1]
Thanks.
00:00:01 [Speaker 1]
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Influence Economy podcast.
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I'm your host, Shana Davis.
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I'm so glad that you were here today.
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But before we get started, I would love if you would do me a favor.
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So wherever it is that you are listening to this episode, I want you to take a screenshot.
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And with that screenshot, I want you to post it on LinkedIn, tag me at shayna rattler davis, and then I just wanna hear your biggest moment or your biggest takeaway from this episode.
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And the reason why I do that is not so much that I care about downloads and any of those metrics that we can sometimes take a look at.
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But what I do care about is that in my opinion, there are far too many leaders that don't know how to cultivate and build the influence that the new world demands.
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And I think that the more times that we share these as it's going to expose them to the signals that they need to develop to be able to lead better, communicate better, and just overall do better business.
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So I thank you in advance for being willing to share, share, share this episode.
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Well, I am really looking forward to this episode.
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We've been trying to get this in the can for a few months now, but I met my guest today at human tech week earlier this year.
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I had the ability to sit in on a couple of sessions that she spoke about, and I immediately was like, I need to connect.
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What she does is kind of the yin to the yang of what it is that I do, and I'm excited to have her here.
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So I am going to read her bio, and then we are gonna get started to what I know is gonna be a fabulous conversation.
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My guest today has been helping leaders grow for over thirty five years.
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She is the co founder of Leaders in Tech, and most recently served as the faculty director of the Interpersonal Dynamics for High Performance Executives program at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Her clients work with her to their interpersonal skills, update limiting mental models, and learn to modify their style.
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She has become internationally known for her expertise in interpersonal relations and particularly experiential small group learning.
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She's also the co author of the book Connect, Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues.
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I'm excited to welcome to the show Carol Robin.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much, Shaina.
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I'm delighted to be here.
00:02:24 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
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I'm looking forward to this conversation.
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So Carol, you and I both work with tech companies, right?
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We work with a lot of tech founders and I have been in learning and development in some capacity or another for about, oh gosh, I think it's probably about twenty five years and I've been specifically working with tech companies for about about the last two or three years.
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And I have found that they are a unique breed when it comes to the type of learning and development that they need, the type of training and development they need.
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I think oftentimes they're like, oh wow.
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As long as I have like a great product and a great team,
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like what
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else is there.
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And so when you look at the interpersonal skills that you, I know that you call them touchy feely skills, and I love that.
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And so when a founder pushes back and says like, oh, like this is soft skill stuff, and I probably don't need this.
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Like, what's your actual case that this is really a, if you wanna call it soft, you can call it soft, but this is really a hard skill that is really going to help sometimes determine the trajectory of the business that you're building.
00:03:35 [Speaker 2]
Well, it might be worth noting that all this work that I do at Leaders in Tech is really a course that I taught for two decades at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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And and it was the students who nicknamed it touchy feely, because of the emphasis on the role of feelings and emotions in learning how to connect well with other people.
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So leadership is ultimately about influence
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Mhmm.
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And your ability to influence others.
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And influence is almost impossible in the absence of connection.
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But most leaders, especially in tech, don't know how to go about creating really deep connections with other people.
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Yeah.
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Because they're so focused on the technology and on the product.
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And sometimes on some of the other business, the strategy, the the finances, the marketing, all are important.
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But until you get the people part right, then your success is going to be somewhat limited in my view and in my experience.
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Yeah.
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I can remember one.
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Heard a quote and I don't know if it was like referencing like something from a book or if someone was just wise enough to say this and they said your business is never going to outgrow the level at which you develop yourself.
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If you're the person that is leading it, whether you're the CEO and founder, or whether you're leading a department, but your business is going to cap at the level of what you as the individual are developed.
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And I, I thought that because in the beginning, I thought to myself, like, I don't need relevant.
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I don't need to think about this.
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I just need you to tell me the tactics that it takes to build my business, and that's what you said I was gonna do.
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I was coming here all the way on the West Coast.
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I lived in Memphis at the time.
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Coming all the way on the West Coast to learn how to grow my business, and we spent the whole first half of of the day working on this personal stuff.
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And I didn't understand this concept of, yes, but here's the problem, is that we can teach you all of the tactics in the world.
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But if you as the individual are limited your development, if you as the person are limited in your ability to be able to connect with people, then it doesn't matter what we teach you of the tactics.
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They're still just not necessarily going to be as effective.
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Yes.
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I I completely concur.
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And in fact, I would add that if you it isn't just how committed are you to developing yourself, it's how committed are you to developing your relationships.
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Yes.
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In the people do business with people.
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Yes.
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Even in this age of AI and, and and people don't, they, they don't, they don't do business with ideas or machines or products or money or strategies.
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They do business with people.
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So that is why it's so important to get the people part
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right.
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I agree.
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I agree.
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You know, so let's go a little bit deeper in what exactly it is that you teach, because I am frankly just fascinated by it.
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You have a framework called the three realities.
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And what it does is it separates intent, words, and impact.
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And one of the things that I help founders to do is to actually prepare them to make sure that when they're engaging outside of their organization, that they're prepared for that.
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And oftentimes that is, you know, speaking one on one with a customer, maybe it's speaking one on one with an investor.
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And when these one on one meetings are high, I think that those leaders are getting read on all three of those things at one time, the words, the impact, and the intent, even if they don't realize it.
00:07:30 [Speaker 1]
And so I would love if you could walk us through how that framework applies when the person reading you maybe isn't a colleague that knows you well, but it might be someone like an investor or a reporter or a customer that may not really know you that well.
00:07:46 [Speaker 2]
Well, let's back up from the framework for a moment and just note that what I say is not necessarily word.
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So we all have filters through which we consume data.
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And so I cannot rely on you hearing what I have said.
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Absolutely.
00:08:07 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
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So one important thing for me to do is to remember that and be curious and test for what you have heard by asking things as simple as so, I just talked about what I'm hoping as a result of this meeting.
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And before we get any further, I'm just I just wanna make sure we're both on the same page.
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What did you hear me say?
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What did you hear me say is one of the most, powerful questions you can ask somebody else.
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I'll I'll give you a real quick example of this.
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It's it's not in a business context, but take, for example, I come in the kitchen and I say to my husband, can I help you with that?
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Mhmm.
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And he says, don't tell me what to do.
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And I'm sure nobody can relate to that story.
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This would be many, many years ago.
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And and and I said, because his response didn't match what I would expect, instead of saying I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, I said, what did you hear me say?
00:09:11 [Speaker 2]
And he said, you said I didn't know what I was doing.
00:09:15 [Speaker 1]
Oh, wow.
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So that was one of the most pivotal moments.
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I mean, we were we we were not married for very long at the time.
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We've now been married forty one years.
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And it was a it was a moment where I thought, oh my gosh.
00:09:30 [Speaker 2]
We cannot always be assured that our intent, that what we have said has been heard much less art has been understood.
00:09:39 [Speaker 1]
What I like about this is that so often we see it modeled in the context of if I've if I've heard something that you've said that my obligation to say is what I heard you say was, but I like that you've turned this on its head and said, listen, it's my responsibility to make sure that it's actually received what I said in the way that I intended it.
00:10:01 [Speaker 1]
And so this is a great way for me to ask the question to make sure that I actually had the intention because you're right.
00:10:07 [Speaker 1]
Like what I said, the intention by said it and what it is that you heard and how it impacted you is not always going to be in alignment.
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And I and
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I We think we're a great communicator.
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Exactly.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
And I don't know that until I ask.
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And so yeah.
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And, you know, in that moment, I said I said, well, I'm so happy I asked.
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So when I see you struggling, I love you.
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I wanna help.
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What would you like me to do when I see you struggling?
00:10:30 [Speaker 1]
Wow.
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He said, wait until I ask for help.
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Wow.
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And then for forty more years, I have waited until he asked for help.
00:10:41 [Speaker 1]
You know, I I I've done done a little research on your writings and and thought leadership in preparation for this.
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And I, and I don't remember if I heard you say this when we were at human tech week or if it was in some of the research, cause I had done it a few months ago, but I remember you talking about the 15% rule
00:11:02 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:11:02 [Speaker 1]
And how it's about just pushing just past comfort, not blowing past it.
00:11:07 [Speaker 1]
I think my physical therapist needs to realize that I'm like, just take me just past my comfort zone shoulder surgery.
00:11:13 [Speaker 1]
Don't push me, you know, so far past it.
00:11:16 [Speaker 1]
But when you look at pushing just past our comfort zone and not blowing past it, you mentioned earlier how you have these technical these technical founders that are so used to being heads down and and building the thing.
00:11:31 [Speaker 1]
When their whole identity oftentimes is heads down, building the team, the thing focused on what has to happen in order for me to get this company off the ground or to grow this company on where they are in their trajectory.
00:11:46 [Speaker 1]
But now they're being asked oftentimes to be the face of their company.
00:11:50 [Speaker 2]
What
00:11:50 [Speaker 1]
does 15 beyond their comfort zone actually look like again when they're having to maybe engage with someone in a way that they're like, I can't default to my comfort tech talk?
00:12:05 [Speaker 2]
Well, part of what builds relationship is a willingness to be real, a little more real, and a willingness to be vulnerable.
00:12:17 [Speaker 2]
Again, 15%.
00:12:18 [Speaker 2]
Nobody's saying blah.
00:12:19 [Speaker 2]
Nobody's saying TMI.
00:12:21 [Speaker 2]
But to the extent that I let you in a little bit into what's going on for me, you are more likely to be willing to let me in to what's going on for you.
00:12:33 [Speaker 2]
And, and the 15% rule is especially important when it comes to disclosure, which is a critical component of building relationship and it has to be thoughtful and judicious and intentional, and but don't grow if we stay in our comfort zone.
00:12:49 [Speaker 2]
We're back to the growth point that you made when at the start.
00:12:53 [Speaker 2]
You have to step outside your comfort zone, but you have to stay inside what we call the danger zone.
00:12:58 [Speaker 2]
There's really three concentric circles and the circle, the the comfort zone's in the middle.
00:13:04 [Speaker 2]
The one on the very outside is your danger zone and in a million years I wouldn't share that with you.
00:13:10 [Speaker 2]
But the zone in the middle is your learning zone.
00:13:13 [Speaker 2]
And until you step outside your comfort zone, you don't learn anything new and you, and and you stay a little stuck in whatever the dynamic is that you currently have.
00:13:24 [Speaker 2]
So the 15% rule applies to both disclosure, which is an element of building relationship, and feedback, which is another element of building relationship.
00:13:33 [Speaker 2]
If I if you're doing something that is upsetting me or I think is harming the team or harming the organization, or harming our relationship in some way, and I don't say anything, then I'm colluding and saying it's fine for you to continue that.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
But if I'm invested in our relationship, if I'm invested in this team, then I will find a way to say something to you in service of the relationship, the team, the organization.
00:14:03 [Speaker 2]
And the 15% rule applies there too.
00:14:06 [Speaker 2]
And the three realities that you mentioned are a core element to giving feedback in a way that the other person can hear it without getting by minimizing the chances they'll get defensive.
00:14:19 [Speaker 1]
You know, I mentioned when I was reading your bio that you've been doing this for over thirty five years.
00:14:25 [Speaker 1]
And for anyone that goes to your website, which is leadersintech.org, they will see that you have with all different types of tech companies, many of which are probably we're being we're using on our desks, we're using on our phones.
00:14:41 [Speaker 1]
Many of those are household names.
00:14:43 [Speaker 1]
And I can I can imagine that in the amount of time that you've been doing this, that you've seen a little bit of everything when it comes to, like, how well received these these, these topics are, etcetera?
00:14:55 [Speaker 1]
Has there been anything in particular that you notice seems to be one of the most common theme that you see that gets in the way of potential, especially tech people being able to bridge this gap between what is required to build a thing versus what it is that is required to build themselves?
00:15:19 [Speaker 1]
I think what most
00:15:21 [Speaker 2]
get what gets in the way, what most gets in the way is people's mental models, their beliefs and assumptions.
00:15:28 [Speaker 2]
For example, they have a belief and an assumption that a leader has to show up with things and no emotion, because that's too soft, too touchy feely.
00:15:40 [Speaker 2]
Well, how do you inspire people with no feelings and emotion?
00:15:44 [Speaker 2]
How do you motivate people without any feelings and emotion?
00:15:48 [Speaker 2]
How do you bring out the best in them with no feelings and emotion?
00:15:51 [Speaker 2]
I mean, so these these beliefs and assumptions, these mental models become fixed very early in our careers.
00:15:58 [Speaker 2]
And then what we don't do often is update them with new data.
00:16:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:03 [Speaker 2]
So, one of the most one of the most how it happens for people in the leaders in tech program and used to happen for my students at this at the business school on which leaders in tech is based, that program, is that they are suddenly they get fresh new data.
00:16:20 [Speaker 2]
They realize that the more they held their cards close to the vest, the more others held their cards close to the vest, and there there was less and less connection, and there was less and less investment in each other, but it isn't until they actually and then they think, oh, well, wait a minute.
00:16:39 [Speaker 2]
This mental model that I should show up affectless might have served me early in my career Mhmm.
00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
But it has now started to hurt me.
00:16:50 [Speaker 1]
One of the things that tech people are usually always in the process of doing is raising money.
00:16:57 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:16:58 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:16:58 [Speaker 1]
They're they have an idea and they are pre seed or seed, or whether they've been doing very well and they're now at series BC or, you know, getting ready for IPO, they're always have conversations with investors.
00:17:11 [Speaker 1]
Sometimes it's a new investor.
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
Sometimes it's a return investor.
00:17:14 [Speaker 1]
So if a founder is listening to this episode, Carol, and they have a high stakes investor meeting next week or later this week, What is one thing from your tool belt that you think that they should actually do between now and then to make sure that they're mastering the things that we've been talking about today?
00:17:39 [Speaker 1]
Well, you're not gonna do one thing that's gonna mastery.
00:17:42 [Speaker 1]
So let's just get clear about that.
00:17:44 [Speaker 2]
I think one of the one of the things that is difficult about learning how to be more interpersonally effective is that it takes work Mhmm.
00:17:53 [Speaker 2]
And that it takes investment.
00:17:54 [Speaker 2]
And it's not a one size fits all.
00:17:57 [Speaker 2]
By the way, something that I do with you that creates connection with you might be exactly the wrong thing that I need to do with a person sitting right next to you that I need and want to connect with.
00:18:09 [Speaker 2]
So one size does not fit all.
00:18:12 [Speaker 2]
Start with sausity and with an expression of a wish to develop a strong relationship because of your belief that you will both be better off in helping each other achieve each other's goals if you have a stronger relationship and can be real with each other.
00:18:34 [Speaker 1]
I work with a lot of men and oh, I don't know how to say this nice, so I'm just gonna say it.
00:18:40 [Speaker 1]
I work with a lot of men, and many of them don't recognize where there are gaps.
00:18:48 [Speaker 1]
A lot of times they don't recognize where there's always areas for improvement because many times they, they think like, oh, I'm so brilliant and so masterful in some of these other areas that I've surely brilliant and masterful in area, it all in all of the areas.
00:19:02 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:19:03 [Speaker 1]
And, and so I'm I'm curious if there is if there is anything well, let me see.
00:19:15 [Speaker 1]
How do how do I they think they're brilliant in all areas, do you ever get any I know most of the people that are in your program, they apply to be in that program, so they know what it is that they're they're coming into.
00:19:29 [Speaker 1]
But I know that you also do a lot of speaking and you do a lot of interviews and a lot of podcasts, you know, to get your thought leadership out out in the world.
00:19:38 [Speaker 1]
Is there ever any pushback in terms of well, let me ask it this way.
00:19:45 [Speaker 1]
For those people that think they've got it all, are is there any introspection or anything that they should assess?
00:19:51 [Speaker 1]
Like, if they're like, okay.
00:19:52 [Speaker 1]
Listen.
00:19:52 [Speaker 1]
I just heard this interview.
00:19:54 [Speaker 1]
I'm not sure if I have a breakdown in that area or not.
00:19:57 [Speaker 1]
Is there any, like assessment that they can do in their mind of, like, let me go back and replay, like, maybe I'll
00:20:03 [Speaker 2]
make it I'll make it easier.
00:20:05 [Speaker 2]
I'll make it easier.
00:20:07 [Speaker 2]
At our book website, connectandrelate.com, there is a downloadable free self assessment that, under under, I think activities.
00:20:21 [Speaker 2]
It's a self assessment and you can fill it out for yourself, then give it to a few people that work closely with you, and then compare how you see yourself to how they see you.
00:20:32 [Speaker 2]
And I will tell you that we have had a thousand leaders go through leaders in tech now for whom that activity at the start of the program, and in some cases, they did it and that's what caused them to decide to apply to leaders in tech, was like, oh my gosh.
00:20:51 [Speaker 2]
Eye opening.
00:20:53 [Speaker 1]
Because that even better.
00:20:54 [Speaker 2]
We are not that good at really evaluating ourselves, especially in this area.
00:21:00 [Speaker 2]
They know how good a listener I am based on how well you feel heard by me.
00:21:08 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't matter how much I think I'm a great listener.
00:21:11 [Speaker 2]
What matters is whether or not you feel heard
00:21:13 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:15 [Speaker 2]
As an example.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
I love that even better.
00:21:17 [Speaker 1]
We'll make sure that the link to that is in the show notes.
00:21:21 [Speaker 1]
So, one last question before we start to tell people where they can find you.
00:21:25 [Speaker 1]
Is there anything that you are either reading or watching right now that you want folks to check out?
00:21:34 [Speaker 2]
Well, it has absolutely well, I was gonna say it has nothing to do with with anything that we're talking about, but I'm reading Violetta by Isabel Allende.
00:21:45 [Speaker 2]
And I think one of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much I mean, it's fiction.
00:21:51 [Speaker 2]
But one of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much is because of the complexity of the characters and their relationships.
00:21:58 [Speaker 2]
So I think anytime that I'm, that I'm engaged with any watching something or reading something that, that at feels rich to me because it's it's it hasn't been over it has not overly simplified, the complexities of human relationships.
00:22:19 [Speaker 2]
I'm intrigued by that, and I love that.
00:22:21 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:22:22 [Speaker 1]
I always love to know.
00:22:22 [Speaker 1]
I wanna know, like, what are people watching?
00:22:24 [Speaker 1]
What are people reading?
00:22:26 [Speaker 1]
Because I'm an avid reader and quite frankly, reality TV junkie too sometimes when I have time to watch television.
00:22:32 [Speaker 1]
Well, Carol, you have been a wealth of information and people are going to want to know more.
00:22:37 [Speaker 1]
So if they wanna follow you on social media, where do you recommend that they go?
00:22:42 [Speaker 1]
So I am not on any social media platform.
00:22:45 [Speaker 1]
I am only on link because by the way,
00:22:47 [Speaker 2]
I think social media is the worst thing that's ever happened to interpersonal dynamics because, you know, your thousands of Facebook friends are not your friends, and you are not connected to them.
00:23:00 [Speaker 2]
That that said, I am on LinkedIn.
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
So Carol Robin, p h Carol, c a r o l e, Robin, r o b I n, one b, No not two n's and no s's.
00:23:13 [Speaker 2]
Carol Robin l at, PhD is the best way to find me on LinkedIn.
00:23:19 [Speaker 2]
And that that has a link to the leaders in tech, website.
00:23:25 [Speaker 2]
But as I said, connectandrelate.com also has a way to, send, you know, me a message through that.
00:23:33 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:23:34 [Speaker 1]
Well, I am going to make sure that the links to all of that is in the show notes.
00:23:38 [Speaker 1]
When I ask that you share this episode far, far and wide, and I hope that you will go back and listen to previous and future episodes as well.
00:23:46 [Speaker 1]
Everyone have a great day.
00:23:48 [Speaker 1]
Bye bye.
00:23:48 [Speaker 1]
Thank you.
Thanks.
00:00:01 [Speaker 1]
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Influence Economy podcast.
00:00:08 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Shana Davis.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm so glad that you were here today.
00:00:11 [Speaker 1]
But before we get started, I would love if you would do me a favor.
00:00:15 [Speaker 1]
So wherever it is that you are listening to this episode, I want you to take a screenshot.
00:00:20 [Speaker 1]
And with that screenshot, I want you to post it on LinkedIn, tag me at shayna rattler davis, and then I just wanna hear your biggest moment or your biggest takeaway from this episode.
00:00:32 [Speaker 1]
And the reason why I do that is not so much that I care about downloads and any of those metrics that we can sometimes take a look at.
00:00:40 [Speaker 1]
But what I do care about is that in my opinion, there are far too many leaders that don't know how to cultivate and build the influence that the new world demands.
00:00:50 [Speaker 1]
And I think that the more times that we share these as it's going to expose them to the signals that they need to develop to be able to lead better, communicate better, and just overall do better business.
00:01:00 [Speaker 1]
So I thank you in advance for being willing to share, share, share this episode.
00:01:06 [Speaker 1]
Well, I am really looking forward to this episode.
00:01:09 [Speaker 1]
We've been trying to get this in the can for a few months now, but I met my guest today at human tech week earlier this year.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
I had the ability to sit in on a couple of sessions that she spoke about, and I immediately was like, I need to connect.
00:01:24 [Speaker 1]
What she does is kind of the yin to the yang of what it is that I do, and I'm excited to have her here.
00:01:29 [Speaker 1]
So I am going to read her bio, and then we are gonna get started to what I know is gonna be a fabulous conversation.
00:01:35 [Speaker 1]
My guest today has been helping leaders grow for over thirty five years.
00:01:40 [Speaker 1]
She is the co founder of Leaders in Tech, and most recently served as the faculty director of the Interpersonal Dynamics for High Performance Executives program at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
00:01:53 [Speaker 1]
Her clients work with her to their interpersonal skills, update limiting mental models, and learn to modify their style.
00:02:02 [Speaker 1]
She has become internationally known for her expertise in interpersonal relations and particularly experiential small group learning.
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She's also the co author of the book Connect, Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues.
00:02:18 [Speaker 1]
I'm excited to welcome to the show Carol Robin.
00:02:21 [Speaker 1]
Thank you.
00:02:22 [Speaker 2]
Thank you so much, Shaina.
00:02:23 [Speaker 2]
I'm delighted to be here.
00:02:24 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:02:25 [Speaker 1]
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
00:02:26 [Speaker 1]
So Carol, you and I both work with tech companies, right?
00:02:30 [Speaker 1]
We work with a lot of tech founders and I have been in learning and development in some capacity or another for about, oh gosh, I think it's probably about twenty five years and I've been specifically working with tech companies for about about the last two or three years.
00:02:47 [Speaker 1]
And I have found that they are a unique breed when it comes to the type of learning and development that they need, the type of training and development they need.
00:02:58 [Speaker 1]
I think oftentimes they're like, oh wow.
00:02:59 [Speaker 1]
As long as I have like a great product and a great team,
00:03:02 [Speaker 2]
like what
00:03:03 [Speaker 1]
else is there.
00:03:04 [Speaker 1]
And so when you look at the interpersonal skills that you, I know that you call them touchy feely skills, and I love that.
00:03:14 [Speaker 1]
And so when a founder pushes back and says like, oh, like this is soft skill stuff, and I probably don't need this.
00:03:21 [Speaker 1]
Like, what's your actual case that this is really a, if you wanna call it soft, you can call it soft, but this is really a hard skill that is really going to help sometimes determine the trajectory of the business that you're building.
00:03:35 [Speaker 2]
Well, it might be worth noting that all this work that I do at Leaders in Tech is really a course that I taught for two decades at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
00:03:44 [Speaker 2]
And and it was the students who nicknamed it touchy feely, because of the emphasis on the role of feelings and emotions in learning how to connect well with other people.
00:03:57 [Speaker 2]
So leadership is ultimately about influence
00:04:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:04:02 [Speaker 2]
And your ability to influence others.
00:04:05 [Speaker 2]
And influence is almost impossible in the absence of connection.
00:04:10 [Speaker 2]
But most leaders, especially in tech, don't know how to go about creating really deep connections with other people.
00:04:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:04:20 [Speaker 2]
Because they're so focused on the technology and on the product.
00:04:24 [Speaker 2]
And sometimes on some of the other business, the strategy, the the finances, the marketing, all are important.
00:04:32 [Speaker 2]
But until you get the people part right, then your success is going to be somewhat limited in my view and in my experience.
00:04:42 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:04:42 [Speaker 1]
I can remember one.
00:04:43 [Speaker 1]
Heard a quote and I don't know if it was like referencing like something from a book or if someone was just wise enough to say this and they said your business is never going to outgrow the level at which you develop yourself.
00:04:57 [Speaker 1]
If you're the person that is leading it, whether you're the CEO and founder, or whether you're leading a department, but your business is going to cap at the level of what you as the individual are developed.
00:05:09 [Speaker 1]
And I, I thought that because in the beginning, I thought to myself, like, I don't need relevant.
00:05:15 [Speaker 1]
I don't need to think about this.
00:05:16 [Speaker 1]
I just need you to tell me the tactics that it takes to build my business, and that's what you said I was gonna do.
00:05:21 [Speaker 1]
I was coming here all the way on the West Coast.
00:05:24 [Speaker 1]
I lived in Memphis at the time.
00:05:25 [Speaker 1]
Coming all the way on the West Coast to learn how to grow my business, and we spent the whole first half of of the day working on this personal stuff.
00:05:32 [Speaker 1]
And I didn't understand this concept of, yes, but here's the problem, is that we can teach you all of the tactics in the world.
00:05:42 [Speaker 1]
But if you as the individual are limited your development, if you as the person are limited in your ability to be able to connect with people, then it doesn't matter what we teach you of the tactics.
00:05:57 [Speaker 1]
They're still just not necessarily going to be as effective.
00:06:02 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:06:02 [Speaker 2]
I I completely concur.
00:06:04 [Speaker 2]
And in fact, I would add that if you it isn't just how committed are you to developing yourself, it's how committed are you to developing your relationships.
00:06:16 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:06:17 [Speaker 2]
In the people do business with people.
00:06:20 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:06:20 [Speaker 2]
Even in this age of AI and, and and people don't, they, they don't, they don't do business with ideas or machines or products or money or strategies.
00:06:31 [Speaker 2]
They do business with people.
00:06:33 [Speaker 2]
So that is why it's so important to get the people part
00:06:36 [Speaker 1]
right.
00:06:37 [Speaker 1]
I agree.
00:06:37 [Speaker 1]
I agree.
00:06:38 [Speaker 1]
You know, so let's go a little bit deeper in what exactly it is that you teach, because I am frankly just fascinated by it.
00:06:47 [Speaker 1]
You have a framework called the three realities.
00:06:51 [Speaker 1]
And what it does is it separates intent, words, and impact.
00:06:56 [Speaker 1]
And one of the things that I help founders to do is to actually prepare them to make sure that when they're engaging outside of their organization, that they're prepared for that.
00:07:08 [Speaker 1]
And oftentimes that is, you know, speaking one on one with a customer, maybe it's speaking one on one with an investor.
00:07:17 [Speaker 1]
And when these one on one meetings are high, I think that those leaders are getting read on all three of those things at one time, the words, the impact, and the intent, even if they don't realize it.
00:07:30 [Speaker 1]
And so I would love if you could walk us through how that framework applies when the person reading you maybe isn't a colleague that knows you well, but it might be someone like an investor or a reporter or a customer that may not really know you that well.
00:07:46 [Speaker 2]
Well, let's back up from the framework for a moment and just note that what I say is not necessarily word.
00:07:53 [Speaker 2]
So we all have filters through which we consume data.
00:08:00 [Speaker 2]
And so I cannot rely on you hearing what I have said.
00:08:06 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:08:07 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:08:09 [Speaker 2]
So one important thing for me to do is to remember that and be curious and test for what you have heard by asking things as simple as so, I just talked about what I'm hoping as a result of this meeting.
00:08:25 [Speaker 2]
And before we get any further, I'm just I just wanna make sure we're both on the same page.
00:08:29 [Speaker 2]
What did you hear me say?
00:08:31 [Speaker 2]
What did you hear me say is one of the most, powerful questions you can ask somebody else.
00:08:39 [Speaker 2]
I'll I'll give you a real quick example of this.
00:08:42 [Speaker 2]
It's it's not in a business context, but take, for example, I come in the kitchen and I say to my husband, can I help you with that?
00:08:49 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:49 [Speaker 2]
And he says, don't tell me what to do.
00:08:54 [Speaker 2]
And I'm sure nobody can relate to that story.
00:08:56 [Speaker 2]
This would be many, many years ago.
00:08:59 [Speaker 2]
And and and I said, because his response didn't match what I would expect, instead of saying I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, I said, what did you hear me say?
00:09:11 [Speaker 2]
And he said, you said I didn't know what I was doing.
00:09:15 [Speaker 1]
Oh, wow.
00:09:16 [Speaker 2]
So that was one of the most pivotal moments.
00:09:20 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we were we we were not married for very long at the time.
00:09:23 [Speaker 2]
We've now been married forty one years.
00:09:25 [Speaker 2]
And it was a it was a moment where I thought, oh my gosh.
00:09:30 [Speaker 2]
We cannot always be assured that our intent, that what we have said has been heard much less art has been understood.
00:09:39 [Speaker 1]
What I like about this is that so often we see it modeled in the context of if I've if I've heard something that you've said that my obligation to say is what I heard you say was, but I like that you've turned this on its head and said, listen, it's my responsibility to make sure that it's actually received what I said in the way that I intended it.
00:10:01 [Speaker 1]
And so this is a great way for me to ask the question to make sure that I actually had the intention because you're right.
00:10:07 [Speaker 1]
Like what I said, the intention by said it and what it is that you heard and how it impacted you is not always going to be in alignment.
00:10:14 [Speaker 2]
And I and
00:10:15 [Speaker 1]
I We think we're a great communicator.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
And I don't know that until I ask.
00:10:19 [Speaker 1]
And so yeah.
00:10:19 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, in that moment, I said I said, well, I'm so happy I asked.
00:10:25 [Speaker 2]
So when I see you struggling, I love you.
00:10:27 [Speaker 2]
I wanna help.
00:10:28 [Speaker 2]
What would you like me to do when I see you struggling?
00:10:30 [Speaker 1]
Wow.
00:10:31 [Speaker 2]
He said, wait until I ask for help.
00:10:33 [Speaker 2]
Wow.
00:10:35 [Speaker 1]
And then for forty more years, I have waited until he asked for help.
00:10:41 [Speaker 1]
You know, I I I've done done a little research on your writings and and thought leadership in preparation for this.
00:10:50 [Speaker 1]
And I, and I don't remember if I heard you say this when we were at human tech week or if it was in some of the research, cause I had done it a few months ago, but I remember you talking about the 15% rule
00:11:02 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:11:02 [Speaker 1]
And how it's about just pushing just past comfort, not blowing past it.
00:11:07 [Speaker 1]
I think my physical therapist needs to realize that I'm like, just take me just past my comfort zone shoulder surgery.
00:11:13 [Speaker 1]
Don't push me, you know, so far past it.
00:11:16 [Speaker 1]
But when you look at pushing just past our comfort zone and not blowing past it, you mentioned earlier how you have these technical these technical founders that are so used to being heads down and and building the thing.
00:11:31 [Speaker 1]
When their whole identity oftentimes is heads down, building the team, the thing focused on what has to happen in order for me to get this company off the ground or to grow this company on where they are in their trajectory.
00:11:46 [Speaker 1]
But now they're being asked oftentimes to be the face of their company.
00:11:50 [Speaker 2]
What
00:11:50 [Speaker 1]
does 15 beyond their comfort zone actually look like again when they're having to maybe engage with someone in a way that they're like, I can't default to my comfort tech talk?
00:12:05 [Speaker 2]
Well, part of what builds relationship is a willingness to be real, a little more real, and a willingness to be vulnerable.
00:12:17 [Speaker 2]
Again, 15%.
00:12:18 [Speaker 2]
Nobody's saying blah.
00:12:19 [Speaker 2]
Nobody's saying TMI.
00:12:21 [Speaker 2]
But to the extent that I let you in a little bit into what's going on for me, you are more likely to be willing to let me in to what's going on for you.
00:12:33 [Speaker 2]
And, and the 15% rule is especially important when it comes to disclosure, which is a critical component of building relationship and it has to be thoughtful and judicious and intentional, and but don't grow if we stay in our comfort zone.
00:12:49 [Speaker 2]
We're back to the growth point that you made when at the start.
00:12:53 [Speaker 2]
You have to step outside your comfort zone, but you have to stay inside what we call the danger zone.
00:12:58 [Speaker 2]
There's really three concentric circles and the circle, the the comfort zone's in the middle.
00:13:04 [Speaker 2]
The one on the very outside is your danger zone and in a million years I wouldn't share that with you.
00:13:10 [Speaker 2]
But the zone in the middle is your learning zone.
00:13:13 [Speaker 2]
And until you step outside your comfort zone, you don't learn anything new and you, and and you stay a little stuck in whatever the dynamic is that you currently have.
00:13:24 [Speaker 2]
So the 15% rule applies to both disclosure, which is an element of building relationship, and feedback, which is another element of building relationship.
00:13:33 [Speaker 2]
If I if you're doing something that is upsetting me or I think is harming the team or harming the organization, or harming our relationship in some way, and I don't say anything, then I'm colluding and saying it's fine for you to continue that.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
But if I'm invested in our relationship, if I'm invested in this team, then I will find a way to say something to you in service of the relationship, the team, the organization.
00:14:03 [Speaker 2]
And the 15% rule applies there too.
00:14:06 [Speaker 2]
And the three realities that you mentioned are a core element to giving feedback in a way that the other person can hear it without getting by minimizing the chances they'll get defensive.
00:14:19 [Speaker 1]
You know, I mentioned when I was reading your bio that you've been doing this for over thirty five years.
00:14:25 [Speaker 1]
And for anyone that goes to your website, which is leadersintech.org, they will see that you have with all different types of tech companies, many of which are probably we're being we're using on our desks, we're using on our phones.
00:14:41 [Speaker 1]
Many of those are household names.
00:14:43 [Speaker 1]
And I can I can imagine that in the amount of time that you've been doing this, that you've seen a little bit of everything when it comes to, like, how well received these these, these topics are, etcetera?
00:14:55 [Speaker 1]
Has there been anything in particular that you notice seems to be one of the most common theme that you see that gets in the way of potential, especially tech people being able to bridge this gap between what is required to build a thing versus what it is that is required to build themselves?
00:15:19 [Speaker 1]
I think what most
00:15:21 [Speaker 2]
get what gets in the way, what most gets in the way is people's mental models, their beliefs and assumptions.
00:15:28 [Speaker 2]
For example, they have a belief and an assumption that a leader has to show up with things and no emotion, because that's too soft, too touchy feely.
00:15:40 [Speaker 2]
Well, how do you inspire people with no feelings and emotion?
00:15:44 [Speaker 2]
How do you motivate people without any feelings and emotion?
00:15:48 [Speaker 2]
How do you bring out the best in them with no feelings and emotion?
00:15:51 [Speaker 2]
I mean, so these these beliefs and assumptions, these mental models become fixed very early in our careers.
00:15:58 [Speaker 2]
And then what we don't do often is update them with new data.
00:16:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:03 [Speaker 2]
So, one of the most one of the most how it happens for people in the leaders in tech program and used to happen for my students at this at the business school on which leaders in tech is based, that program, is that they are suddenly they get fresh new data.
00:16:20 [Speaker 2]
They realize that the more they held their cards close to the vest, the more others held their cards close to the vest, and there there was less and less connection, and there was less and less investment in each other, but it isn't until they actually and then they think, oh, well, wait a minute.
00:16:39 [Speaker 2]
This mental model that I should show up affectless might have served me early in my career Mhmm.
00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
But it has now started to hurt me.
00:16:50 [Speaker 1]
One of the things that tech people are usually always in the process of doing is raising money.
00:16:57 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:16:58 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:16:58 [Speaker 1]
They're they have an idea and they are pre seed or seed, or whether they've been doing very well and they're now at series BC or, you know, getting ready for IPO, they're always have conversations with investors.
00:17:11 [Speaker 1]
Sometimes it's a new investor.
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
Sometimes it's a return investor.
00:17:14 [Speaker 1]
So if a founder is listening to this episode, Carol, and they have a high stakes investor meeting next week or later this week, What is one thing from your tool belt that you think that they should actually do between now and then to make sure that they're mastering the things that we've been talking about today?
00:17:39 [Speaker 1]
Well, you're not gonna do one thing that's gonna mastery.
00:17:42 [Speaker 1]
So let's just get clear about that.
00:17:44 [Speaker 2]
I think one of the one of the things that is difficult about learning how to be more interpersonally effective is that it takes work Mhmm.
00:17:53 [Speaker 2]
And that it takes investment.
00:17:54 [Speaker 2]
And it's not a one size fits all.
00:17:57 [Speaker 2]
By the way, something that I do with you that creates connection with you might be exactly the wrong thing that I need to do with a person sitting right next to you that I need and want to connect with.
00:18:09 [Speaker 2]
So one size does not fit all.
00:18:12 [Speaker 2]
Start with sausity and with an expression of a wish to develop a strong relationship because of your belief that you will both be better off in helping each other achieve each other's goals if you have a stronger relationship and can be real with each other.
00:18:34 [Speaker 1]
I work with a lot of men and oh, I don't know how to say this nice, so I'm just gonna say it.
00:18:40 [Speaker 1]
I work with a lot of men, and many of them don't recognize where there are gaps.
00:18:48 [Speaker 1]
A lot of times they don't recognize where there's always areas for improvement because many times they, they think like, oh, I'm so brilliant and so masterful in some of these other areas that I've surely brilliant and masterful in area, it all in all of the areas.
00:19:02 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:19:03 [Speaker 1]
And, and so I'm I'm curious if there is if there is anything well, let me see.
00:19:15 [Speaker 1]
How do how do I they think they're brilliant in all areas, do you ever get any I know most of the people that are in your program, they apply to be in that program, so they know what it is that they're they're coming into.
00:19:29 [Speaker 1]
But I know that you also do a lot of speaking and you do a lot of interviews and a lot of podcasts, you know, to get your thought leadership out out in the world.
00:19:38 [Speaker 1]
Is there ever any pushback in terms of well, let me ask it this way.
00:19:45 [Speaker 1]
For those people that think they've got it all, are is there any introspection or anything that they should assess?
00:19:51 [Speaker 1]
Like, if they're like, okay.
00:19:52 [Speaker 1]
Listen.
00:19:52 [Speaker 1]
I just heard this interview.
00:19:54 [Speaker 1]
I'm not sure if I have a breakdown in that area or not.
00:19:57 [Speaker 1]
Is there any, like assessment that they can do in their mind of, like, let me go back and replay, like, maybe I'll
00:20:03 [Speaker 2]
make it I'll make it easier.
00:20:05 [Speaker 2]
I'll make it easier.
00:20:07 [Speaker 2]
At our book website, connectandrelate.com, there is a downloadable free self assessment that, under under, I think activities.
00:20:21 [Speaker 2]
It's a self assessment and you can fill it out for yourself, then give it to a few people that work closely with you, and then compare how you see yourself to how they see you.
00:20:32 [Speaker 2]
And I will tell you that we have had a thousand leaders go through leaders in tech now for whom that activity at the start of the program, and in some cases, they did it and that's what caused them to decide to apply to leaders in tech, was like, oh my gosh.
00:20:51 [Speaker 2]
Eye opening.
00:20:53 [Speaker 1]
Because that even better.
00:20:54 [Speaker 2]
We are not that good at really evaluating ourselves, especially in this area.
00:21:00 [Speaker 2]
They know how good a listener I am based on how well you feel heard by me.
00:21:08 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't matter how much I think I'm a great listener.
00:21:11 [Speaker 2]
What matters is whether or not you feel heard
00:21:13 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:15 [Speaker 2]
As an example.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
I love that even better.
00:21:17 [Speaker 1]
We'll make sure that the link to that is in the show notes.
00:21:21 [Speaker 1]
So, one last question before we start to tell people where they can find you.
00:21:25 [Speaker 1]
Is there anything that you are either reading or watching right now that you want folks to check out?
00:21:34 [Speaker 2]
Well, it has absolutely well, I was gonna say it has nothing to do with with anything that we're talking about, but I'm reading Violetta by Isabel Allende.
00:21:45 [Speaker 2]
And I think one of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much I mean, it's fiction.
00:21:51 [Speaker 2]
But one of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much is because of the complexity of the characters and their relationships.
00:21:58 [Speaker 2]
So I think anytime that I'm, that I'm engaged with any watching something or reading something that, that at feels rich to me because it's it's it hasn't been over it has not overly simplified, the complexities of human relationships.
00:22:19 [Speaker 2]
I'm intrigued by that, and I love that.
00:22:21 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:22:22 [Speaker 1]
I always love to know.
00:22:22 [Speaker 1]
I wanna know, like, what are people watching?
00:22:24 [Speaker 1]
What are people reading?
00:22:26 [Speaker 1]
Because I'm an avid reader and quite frankly, reality TV junkie too sometimes when I have time to watch television.
00:22:32 [Speaker 1]
Well, Carol, you have been a wealth of information and people are going to want to know more.
00:22:37 [Speaker 1]
So if they wanna follow you on social media, where do you recommend that they go?
00:22:42 [Speaker 1]
So I am not on any social media platform.
00:22:45 [Speaker 1]
I am only on link because by the way,
00:22:47 [Speaker 2]
I think social media is the worst thing that's ever happened to interpersonal dynamics because, you know, your thousands of Facebook friends are not your friends, and you are not connected to them.
00:23:00 [Speaker 2]
That that said, I am on LinkedIn.
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
So Carol Robin, p h Carol, c a r o l e, Robin, r o b I n, one b, No not two n's and no s's.
00:23:13 [Speaker 2]
Carol Robin l at, PhD is the best way to find me on LinkedIn.
00:23:19 [Speaker 2]
And that that has a link to the leaders in tech, website.
00:23:25 [Speaker 2]
But as I said, connectandrelate.com also has a way to, send, you know, me a message through that.
00:23:33 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:23:34 [Speaker 1]
Well, I am going to make sure that the links to all of that is in the show notes.
00:23:38 [Speaker 1]
When I ask that you share this episode far, far and wide, and I hope that you will go back and listen to previous and future episodes as well.
00:23:46 [Speaker 1]
Everyone have a great day.
00:23:48 [Speaker 1]
Bye bye.
00:23:48 [Speaker 1]
Thank you.
