Untitled EpisodS6E99 | Caleb Fernandez - "I Escaped Calvary Chapel Cult": Breaking the Silence & Chains of Controle

WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:01.520
What's up you guys?
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:03.439
Welcome to The Imagination.
00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:42.159
I'm your host, Demma, and today I'm so honored to have back on the show once again cult and cult abuse survivor, overcomer, and whistleblower, vice president of the nonprofit Tucson Pops Orchestra, freelance social media photographer, future cosmetology school graduate, Penn State University alum, former digital content creator for KGUN9, artist creative, and an incredible hero who has stepped up to break the silence on cult abuse and to help educate on how victims can take steps to get out, Caleb Fernandez.
00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:51.200
A little bit about Caleb, if you guys are new here, if you missed his first two gripping episodes, or if you just need a little refresher.
00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:56.560
Caleb was born into a world already woven with invisible chains.
00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:07.599
Raised in Southern California, amid the sprawling influence of Calvary Chapel, he entered life entangled in what he describes as multi-generational cult dynamics.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:13.120
Church leaders were not descent figures, but active presences in his early years.
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:26.879
And as a small child, he endured ritualized and psychosexual cult abuse, the machinery of mind control, and experiences he later recognized as labor trafficking disguised as mission trips and service.
00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:48.239
He speaks of unclean spirits operating within Calvary Chapel and carries the unshakable conviction that the organization functions as a cult whose patterns of control, isolation, financial pressure, gossip framed as prayer chains, and suppression of questions must be named so that others can break free.
00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.159
Even then, something inside Caleb refused to go dark.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.959
From his earliest school years, Caleb poured himself into musical theater.
00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:07.439
On stage, he discovered a language louder than fear, performance, music, and collective creation that let him breathe when his environment felt suffocating.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:27.280
That same creative current carried him through high school questions that made adults uncomfortable, through college at Penn State University, where he earned a bachelor's degree in advertising and public relations while secretly studying Jewish history and ancient civilizations to understand the faith he had been handed, and onward to New York City.
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:32.080
There he mastered production assistance, photography, and art direction.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.759
He worked as a digital content creator for KGUN9.
00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:45.520
He modeled and he honed skills in still and moving images, retouching, scripting, editing, event planning, and brand representation.
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:55.680
He's also lived with epilepsy and later learned he is autistic, realities that have been met in childhood with prayer instead of professional care.
00:02:56.159 --> 00:03:05.919
The journey toward freedom began in his early 20s and reached its culmination in 2025 when, at 33, he finally escaped the cult.
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.280
Every step has been an act of radical courage.
00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:17.599
He's now vice president of the nonprofit Tucson Pops Orchestra, where music becomes medicine and community becomes sanctuary.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.879
He continues as a freelance social media photographer and strategic digital creative.
00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.800
Caleb is so much more than a survivor, however.
00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:43.599
He's a living symphony of resilience, a man who gathered the shattered notes of his past and composed a future of purpose, artistry, and fierce advocacy.
00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:52.639
As a first-time whistleblower, he has given voice to the silence, offering practical, life-saving guidance for anyone still trapped in the cult.
00:03:53.199 --> 00:04:04.159
He reminds every person who has ever felt controlled, gaslit, or broken that the light inside of them is stronger than any organization, any abuse, and any chain.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:13.120
From unimaginable darkness, he's risen, not to merely endure, but to sing, to create, to lead, and to show others the way out.
00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:18.879
His voice carries the unmistakable sound of freedom, and that sound is already changing lives.
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.360
Yet the true wonder of Caleb's story is only just beginning.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.680
The same hands, once bound by control, are now conducting healing.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:36.800
The same spirit, once told to stay silent, now speaks with the clarity that plants seeds of awakening into the hearts still living in fear.
00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:43.519
Every word of testimony he offers becomes a lantern held high for those still searching for the next exit.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:51.279
In him, we see the promise that no chain is unbreakable, no darkness final, and no voice truly lost.
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:58.560
What was once meant to erase him has instead become the very bridge others now walk across toward their own healing.
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:10.639
Caleb stands as living testimony that even the longest night can end in a sunrise no one expected, and that one courageous soul is enough to light the way for thousands more.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:35.439
So, you guys, without further ado, please help me in welcoming back today's guest of honor: Survivor and Warrior, Walking Miracle, Voice for the Voiceless, Cult Abuse, Educator and Survivor Advocate, Passionate Purveyor of Truth, Content Visionary and Creator, My Dear Friend, and Generational Trauma Chainbreaker, the One The Only, Caleb Fernandez.
00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:40.879
Emma, your intros, your intros are just epic, epic.
00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:59.439
If I can just describe your intros and not just not just thank you, but again the the fans or viewers, watchers, commenters, even even I was even able to look on your last live of the second part, and people are just so generous and so it's comforting.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:11.120
And um, I even laughed that you kind of like um I mean I enjoyed it, but you kind of there was that one person like saying, Oh, I like your disguise, and you were like, you know what, get out of here, like um troller.
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.319
Like, I forget what you call them, but you're like, get out of here, troller.
00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:18.800
Yeah, we don't have any time for that.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.199
You know, you gotta call out people who are bullies.
00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.360
This whole channel is like an anti-bullying channel.
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:29.600
So if people are gonna come on and try to bully or be rude, it's like that's all that you take from the videos, is like this little thing.
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:30.639
It's just ridiculous.
00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:36.240
Comments like that all the time, and they used to bug me, and now I either just block them or I make fun of them.
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.720
And then other people make fun of them too, so it's great.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:39.279
Right.
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:44.720
It shows it's like it's you're you're creating a collective and it's great, it's it's beautiful.
00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:46.319
It it it's comforting.
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.040
Like I said, it's just comforting more than anything.
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:56.959
Well, ironically, people say that about you too, that you're very comforting to listen to and you have this like calmness about you that is very encouraging to people.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.399
I've heard that multiple times in the comments across different platforms.
00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:02.800
And I'm really grateful that you're back today.
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:08.639
Your story just has so much to sort of reverse engineer and educate on.
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:14.399
And as we've said before in the prior episodes, you know, cults, that word is just such a broad word.
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.160
They exist everywhere, and it's so unbeknownst to so many of us.
00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:25.040
And I think what your testimony does is it helps us really recognize how these things are really hiding in plain sight.
00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:35.759
And you're also so compassionate with giving us tools that we can use to sort of look at this in a way that encourages healing and prevents more trauma once somebody does decide to leave.
00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:37.920
And you're so incredibly brave for leaving.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:49.439
The more we talk, the more I realize how many chains were sort of bound to you throughout your family lineage and how many ways you were pulled in different directions to potentially not be able to get away from all of this, you know.
00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:52.879
So you're just really a walking miracle, and I'm grateful that you're back.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:54.720
And thought maybe we'd start.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.600
It hasn't been super long since you've been on, but it's been a little while.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:03.040
And so I thought maybe we'd catch up and just see what you've been up to and if there's anything new going on in your life.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:03.839
Yeah.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:20.879
So it's, you know, it's a whole journey, tumultuous revelation in itself to realize what you've been locked into, like what invisible chains have been restraining you your whole life.
00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:26.319
But then to move beyond that, you're like, okay, whoa, now what do I do?
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:38.159
Like, I I I I know I'm a person, I know I'm I'm capable, but you have this kind of lingering emptiness that was filled by that control system.
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:50.399
And someone who's who's never been involved in a cult or who's never been impacted with um SRA, like and somebody just completely outside would be like, Well, you're you're you're free now.
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.879
It's like breaking homage, go do whatever you want.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:09:04.559
But even those people, like they were kind of like, yeah, I have all this freedom, but it's like looking at a grocery aisle and wondering, like, okay, what which bread do I choose?
00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.679
There's you know, there are literally hundreds of different options.
00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:28.639
And it's like this when you when you leave, especially when you leave by yourself and your family still remains in it, and they no matter what you say, no matter what you do, no matter how you try to convince them, you realize they don't want to understand that the ignorance is is their bliss.
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:37.519
And because you're no longer subscribing to that ignorant message, it's like you are now the enemy.
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:54.480
And um, I I brought a couple things because all of this finally telling my story is has really giving me a focus and allowing me to think, okay, I gotta write my story, I gotta tell, like there are options like this.
00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:55.440
Thank you so much.
00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:00.559
But also, like, what what am I thinking through every day?
00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.600
And I started journaling because I was like, okay, I'm having these intense dreams.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:10.000
Like, I can try to think about what they mean all day, but let me just start journaling.
00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:14.240
I think sometimes a lot of our dreams are things we just haven't addressed, right?
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:19.440
And our that's what that's why we're thinking of that when we're dreaming, when we're supposed to be resting.
00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:30.639
And um, as I began journaling, I thought, okay, either nobody can read this, or if I feel comfortable enough, I can potentially share that.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:43.919
And I think I've written a decent amount where um I don't know if it would be exactly ready by the time you share in this episode, but at least somewhere down the line, I plan on releasing it.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:51.840
And um, the the section, the excerpt that I wanted to read today um specifically ties in with Calvary Chapel.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:58.720
And so if I may begin, I wrote this on the 19th of this month or of September.
00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:08.480
And so I be I begin with the cult Calvary Chapel that I was born and raised into used many verses and added on messaging to control us.
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:23.200
First Corinthians 8, 13 says, So if what I eat causes another believer to sin, I will not eat meat again as long as I live, for I don't want to cause another believer to stumble.
00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:30.240
This verse, for example, was taken out of context when the Calvary Chapel Central pastor used it to control the congregation.
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.279
It's from a passage about sacrificing idols.
00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:40.960
For so many years, or for sacrificing food to idols, for so many years I let isolated verses like this control my life.
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:46.639
Jesus allegedly ate with whores, tax collectors, fishermen, bottom feeders of society.
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:54.080
If we were to apply that verse to Jesus, Jesus never would have been allowed to hang out with the 12 disciples andor Mary.
00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:03.679
If others' opinions matter this much to God, why do we even need to know God if us knowing slash appreciating God may still mislead others?
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.759
And that it sounds basically like a personal issue.
00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:13.840
And my pastor did this a lot.
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:24.559
He used to say verses like this, and if you asked a question, he would basically just read back what he what he just read to you.
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:30.639
So it was kind of like him giving you an answer without any critical thought to it, right?
00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:40.480
It's just, and and and I don't know if that was his way of just telling us like F off or he truly did not know, you know, only only God knows.
00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:49.440
But um like he it was it was the the more I realized, okay, this person's not actually answering questions.
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:55.759
This person's just, if anything, giving his own thought and then structuring it around this verse.
00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:02.080
And the more I noticed that I just couldn't deny it anymore.
00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.519
And like you mentioned in the intro, I had gone away.
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:12.080
I had studied academically like the the Old Testament, which is like foundational, right?
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:21.759
No matter which of the, you know, whether you take the Latter-day Saints route or even Muslims, like they they base a lot of their information on the Old Testament.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:27.440
So I was like, I need to like understand the you know, the first brick that was laid before all of this.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:44.480
And it's just going beyond that took courage, but now that I look back on it, I'm like, well, Caleb, it was, yeah, it was intense, but you you have to be your own advocate.
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:51.279
And I think that that's what everybody on this channel who's spoken to you had to come to that point, right?
00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.840
They were like, I have to advocate for myself.
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.120
No one is going to.
00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:01.600
And I think that that's the really the hardest thing with any cult is you're trained to always consult somebody else.
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.519
Nobody acts on their own, right?
00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:08.159
Yes, absolutely.
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:15.360
And then advocating for yourself isn't really the way that it that you are able to do it now that you're out.
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:21.279
Advocating for yourself is also very inverted, like how you've talked about the prayer chains.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.279
You know, there wasn't, there were probably instances where people genuinely needed help.
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:30.399
They consult somebody and the help isn't necessarily what is appropriate in the moment.
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:40.320
They might just pray over somebody and sort of keep it contained and controlled versus outsourcing and getting somebody, you know, the proper help that they might need.
00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:48.399
So you also see how you're trusting advocacy with people who may not have your best interests in mind and advocate for you properly too.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:49.200
Yep.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:15:02.399
And and that led, and specifically, even that led to legal issues with me because I had someone in the church who I so I was born and raised in it literally from my birth.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:11.279
Um, I this person was um, I think brought in, like their their family uh joined the church later, but they were still very much a child.
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:21.279
And um as I got to know them as a young adult, our relationship became very trusting.
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.399
We would we we were like each other's confidant.
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:35.279
And when I last year, really, when I flat out said, So do you realize like like have you have you learned yet that Calvary Chapel's a cult?
00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.519
It was it was just it was laughable to them.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.120
And they very much did not want to keep going into that conversation.
00:15:45.200 --> 00:16:06.080
But I was like, no, this is serious, like I can't trust anybody in this because I am starting to live my life, and I am and I have too many facts before me that conflict everything that we've been instructed and kind of like brainwashed into our whole life.
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.679
And like I even went on a missions trip with that person.
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:21.600
Um, and it was, you know, we we had a lot, our roots were very much connected to each other, you know, as our own trees, our roots messed a lot.
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:29.120
And I can't speak too much on the legalities of what happened, but um, I thought that I could trust them.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.320
They were sharing what I was talking about.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:38.399
And like my dad was a principal for the Calvary Chapel Christian School.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:39.919
He just left that.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.679
He's like finally retiring.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:47.600
But um, that other person, their family is very much tied in um administratively.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:17:11.440
It's it what it really looking back on it now, I understand why they reacted the way they did, because half of their family's funds probably go out the window if if they were to if they were to kind of give their um sorry, I'm really trying to choose my words carefully, right?
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:19.039
Because it's because of the whole legalities, but it their family would have been at risk of you know, their their perfect church standing.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.160
I'll just say that.
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:32.079
And I think because my parents, like before the church even had their physical building, our house that I'm living in now with my parents, like it's it's a decent size.
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.480
And we used to have Bible studies here.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:45.279
So, like literally before we ever had the church building, years and years, you know, like this is like 30 years ago, like almost 40 years ago, they like my parents helped the church survive.
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.160
So I don't think like I'm in a unique situation.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:56.720
My my my parents don't need to be as involved, like a lot of cults, you know, that's how they pull you in and get you to feel important.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:01.920
And then the more you do that, you realize the the more restrictive box you've been placed in.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:10.640
And I think because my parents were able to do that early on, not that they were ever even cognitive thinking of it like this.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:28.640
Um I I I believe now my recent actions didn't put them as like at risk, especially because my dad was a principal during the time and he's he he's he wanted to step away because it was just a lot, like he he should have been retired.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.039
He's done like so many different jobs after he retired.
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:40.319
But the point of it all is that I think the only reason my parents have been given such grace is because the church wouldn't be there without them.
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.640
We we talked about tithing last time.
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.799
And I know my parents have given a lot of money to the church.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:56.240
Like the uh my dad mentioned one time how the IRS contacted them or contacted my dad and was like, like, are you really making this much amount?
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.960
Like, have you really given this away to the church?
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.880
And the church keeps records of that.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.599
So my dad was able to get that and show them.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:12.960
But yeah, my I if I had to say over all the years, like it's probably in the six digits of you know, number wise, of how much they've given.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.000
And I know that they weren't the only family that was doing that.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.200
It was they were getting a lot of law enforcements and it was starting to get a lot of crossover.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:34.160
Like one of the things that I have right now is like my dad denies he's a Mason, but yet here's one of their most recent pamphlets, and I'll I'll try to cross off my my address, but like it has my dad's name right there.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.319
Like it's it's addressed to him.
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.279
So he he he doesn't talk about it.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:47.359
And even though he kind of likes to brush it under the rug, I'm not saying that my dad, you know, is a 33rd degree Mason.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.759
I I I think he's at the very, you know, one of the bottom tiers.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:20:00.319
But he and himself only ever did that because there were other adult members that were like, hey, you should be a part of this.
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.720
We you we really think you should be a part of this.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:05.599
Like he never actively sought it out.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:07.359
It was people coming to him.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:18.400
And then because my brother was about to turn 18 at the time, and it was his girlfriend's father who was actually like one of the leaders at our local um Masonic Lodge.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.440
They were like, Hey, both of you, like you're a cop.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.720
You're like my brother was almost like a straight A student.
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:28.880
Like you guys are um, like you guys come in here.
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.039
But at the time, I even remember thinking, this is weird.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:40.799
Like I Googled online, I was, you know, I was pretty tech savvy, even at like 10 years old, and I was like, hey, what is all this?
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:48.000
Like we didn't have iPhones, but I was still willing to go out of my way and look up on forums and all the different types of rituals they do.
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:57.200
And I was like, this is this isn't just some like, I don't know, this isn't some uh just you know, like an OSHA certification.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.160
This is like something that you're you know going beyond.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:06.559
Like, I and I only say that because I have my OSHA card, but I like, you know, I know that that was just like a weekend of training, right?
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:10.480
It's not something that is like lingering over your life.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:32.799
And with my brother being, you know, doing being a part of the gate program and going into Freemasonry and then um going off to Stanford, and then I can't specifically say that his Penn State, like him going to Penn State was because of me, but my brother went to Penn State the year after I started.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:50.160
And if you look at the we again, I don't know how far you want to go down the rabbit hole, but like if you look at the connections Stanford has to their occult foundations, I mean, even the the tree itself, like they like that's their symbol.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:22:01.440
And then I I know that it was weird when I got like not all of my classmates in high school got this, but I got a like a pamphlet with Different colleges.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.799
And the one that stuck out to me was Penn State.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.160
And it wasn't that many.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:07.440
I just remember seeing this.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:09.519
And I was like, huh, why are we getting this?
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.680
And then I thought, well, Penn State, I'll put it because I do want to get away from here.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:15.359
Like I want to get out of Southern California.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.559
I want to change.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:23.039
And they had a top program, not just for ad PR, but they had a top program for higher education.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.200
That's what my brother got his PhD into.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.160
And they they paid for his schooling, everything.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:35.839
So um just getting all that out of the way, like my there are a lot of weird connections in my family.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:46.960
And somebody could sum it up to coincidences, but because of the fact that I've like, like I even remember sending my brother a a book.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:48.960
Like I bought him a book and sent it.
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:57.279
It was about the um the World Economic Forum and the League of Nations and everything, you know, that we're seeing now happen.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:58.960
And my brother got furious.
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.640
He was like, Don't be sending me this.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.680
And I was just like, wait, you're uh like you read as a living, like you enjoy reading.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.240
That's been what I know you your whole life, right?
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:18.079
Like I'm getting this for you because this is something, this was like the rabbit hole that I was going down at the time.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:30.799
And it seemed like like he was just not, he didn't want he it wasn't so much that I was talking about the topic, he didn't want something like that being traced to him.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.480
That's the way he made it sound.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:34.799
And like that's not even me just speculating.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.440
He literally was like, Don't be sending me things like this.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.759
And he had just married his wife.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:50.160
And so, like, I even know that on it, it it's this again, this might seem kind of all out of the way, but like, even his wife is in the lineage of Mary Todd.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:57.680
And like, we know that she was a spiritualist, she was married to Abraham Lincoln, like allegedly she did a lot of freaky stuff in the White House.
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:08.880
And so for me to think like, does he like did these two meet just by chance, or are they married because they each have an agreement with each other?
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:16.640
And things like that even started to open up my eyes, and I started to be like, wait, these are way too many coincidences.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:27.359
Like, like she even ended up going to teach at Penn State, and I and and again, that could just be only because they were they were dating and they were becoming more serious.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:35.279
But there are so many occult ties to a lot of these institutions that people take for granted.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.240
And I couldn't ignore any of that.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:47.119
I I I'm I'm the person who I clock it, I write it down, I keep it in my notepad, and you know, in my notepad of my heart.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:51.200
And at some point it just comes bursting out.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:56.720
And it's it, I I think the the cherry on top was was Calvary Chapel.
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:57.680
That's really what it was.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.960
That's what gave me the final courage because I was like, you know what?
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:02.640
I can't trust anybody.
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:13.119
Even my parents are blaming me and not giving they're not understanding throughout this whole process, this whole breakaway.
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:29.200
They they they they I can't say that they haven't fully supported me because I'm back here in California and I know this is a great place to be, but it's like they have two completely separate lives.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:34.079
They have their their church personas, and then they have, okay, we're here at home.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:44.319
And I and in in what I'm writing, God willing, it turns into a book, people will be able to understand a little bit more about that of of even me growing up with it.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:55.200
Like a quick snippet would be like we'd be fighting and arguing, and then as soon as we pull up to the church and open the van, they're like, hi everybody, hi, happy Sunday.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:02.559
And I used to think that that was normal, but then I got older and I was like, wait, this is if this is psychopathic.
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:12.079
Like, like this is this is them enslaving themselves to the system and and and being what they're it's a facade.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.240
Oh my gosh, there was just so much to unpack and everything.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:17.039
Thanks, yeah.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.680
And I just want to first of all thank you for reading one of your journal entries.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.480
I really hope and pray that this does become a book.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:41.359
I think journaling is such a healing tool that's very underrated in what's recommended or suggested for somebody during their healing journey, just because the way it helps sort of connect the right and left brain hemispheres and process information differently than talk therapy does.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:51.279
And I'm really, really happy that you've started journaling that and you've, you know, took things down and out of your brain and put them on paper so we can get some insights from you.
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.160
And what you shared is actually extremely valuable.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:27:07.519
There's been so many times on my podcast that I've had that same sentiment expressed from a survivor that they tried to ask a question, and it especially happens in the church environment, and then you're you're shut down.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.319
You know, you're not given the opportunity to have a free-flow conversation.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:16.160
You're just regurgitated the same information that you asked the question about.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:24.319
And so it sort of turns off that critical thinking in the child and tells them a strong message of you're not allowed to think outside of what I tell you.
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.720
What I tell you is what I tell you is what I tell you.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:48.480
And I love that you've kept that curiosity despite these obvious attempts of people trying to shut that down, that curiosity and you asking questions, that even still to this day, you're dissecting information about your family lineage and history, you're making connections, you're seeing these little fine details that even come in the mail and starting to corroborate with what you already had thought.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:59.920
And I think that that's, you know, that's the that's a really big part of healing, is putting that life back together of what was happening behind the scenes of what you thought was happening in the control environment.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:06.640
You know, like you said, there's the the church people that, you know, you get out of the car and you're smiling and you're one way, and then there's the other life.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.880
And when you're a kid, you don't know what that other life is.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.720
You just you you see the presentation and that's what you think your life is.
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:23.920
And so I really love that you're able to now have that critical thought and you're able to express it in the way that you've always wanted to, and that you're putting it down on paper for hopefully all of us to be able to enjoy one day.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:29.920
And I I ask everybody listening that they pray over this project to you, that it can come to life and that you continue creating.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:34.640
Um, I know that you also, and I want to give you a chance to talk about this too before I forget.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:43.920
I want you to to plug your YouTube because you actually are posting more content on there too, in addition to writing this book that will hopefully be released.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.759
The YouTube's actually active right now and you have new content that you're putting up.
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:51.920
Do you want to just do a little announcement since that's new since last time that you've been on?
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.039
Yeah, sure.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.039
So, yeah, there are a couple of things I'm doing.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:04.559
And having worked all over the media industry, different parts, and refining my craft all throughout my 20s, uh, I decided, you know what?
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:09.440
I learned from the news industry why they call it fake news.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.559
It's just little tiny snippets.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:16.400
You're never letting anybody actually tell their full story.
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:38.640
And even when a story is told, a lot of the times, like when I was working um not at um KGUN9, but a different station, that one, since it was in a smaller market, the the way it worked was the company, News Press Gazette owned Fox, they owned ABC, they owned all of them.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:39.200
All of them.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:43.119
You know, usually when you move to or when you work in bigger markets, you're only working for one.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.240
So like in Tucson, I was only working for ABC.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.359
But in the smaller market, it it was all of them.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.640
And I was responsible for putting out everything digital about that.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.319
And I did some on-camera stuff, but I was mainly doing digital, digital.
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:02.640
And I would get these articles in, and then I would get the same one again, but with the different headline.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:06.480
And then I would get the same one again, but with a different headline, like on the same day.
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:13.359
And I would be like at first, I was like, wait, is this a glitch?
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:14.319
What's going on?
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:20.640
And then I started to realize, oh no, if you read one headline, it's more like left leaning.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.759
If you read the other headline, it's more right leaning.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.200
And then there's a third headline, which is kind of indifferent, it's just stating what happened.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:37.200
And I was like, wait, the fact that now this is indifferent and this is just stating what happened, and that's a third option.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.759
Like, that's what it should just be in the first place.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.319
You the the it the news shouldn't be trying to make you think a certain way.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:54.480
And doing all of that, understanding what I like, like six months in working at the news, I wanted to quit, but I was like, okay, this is a this is a blessing in itself.
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.279
I got recruited into this, and then I got recruited again.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:01.359
And then after the three years, I was like, you know what, I've learned enough.
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:05.519
Like, I I I even in their contracts, you couldn't be an influencer.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.480
So they were kind of like trying to restrain people from getting too popular.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.880
It's like, I know this is kind of unrelated, but like America's next top model.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.559
I grew up watching that show and I understood, like, wow, this is fascinating.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:24.880
But if you look at their contracts, a lot of the girls that have come out eventually, like after their 10 years, they can start talking about it.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:32.400
A lot of them have made it public that in the contracts, if you were a winner, you couldn't be more popular than Tyra Banks.
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:41.599
So even like it's not even, yeah, like it's not even just um like with within the news industry, you know, they're trying to hold you back so you don't get bigger than the station itself.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.759
Like this is something that is systemic.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:53.920
It's it's and not only is it is it selfish, but it's you know, it's I almost want to say like unforgiving.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:09.359
It's just um it it there are all these different examples, and I think when people start looking at that, their mind, they're either gonna go crazy if they ignore it, but their mind, God willing, they're gonna start opening up.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:14.880
And so I say all that because with my new YouTube series, that's what I'm calling it.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:21.839
I'm basically just going on the on a web browser, looking up things that are happening and adding in my own two cents.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.359
But I'm trying to do it objective.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:31.759
Like today I looked at some sports stuff and like I hate sports, but I'm like, okay, who, you know, who can like there's got to be someone who might find this interesting.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:41.119
And and my way of thinking about it is like, you know, you can listen to it when you're going for a walk, you can listen to it when you're working out, you know, that type of thing.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:46.480
Because I know some people go to TikTok for their news, other people just flip on what's on TV.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:53.839
And this is, I'm trying to provide something that everybody might be able to get out of, but most importantly, the objectivity.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:05.440
I I want I want to look up things that I'm not interested in, and I want to look up something that might change my perception and might even change my mind because I've always been willing to do that.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:12.720
It's just once I find something and I can't argue against it, I become I become stubborn.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:20.799
I'll admit, like that's but I but but I but I feel like it's a it's a a healthy boundary more than anything.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:28.880
And that healthy boundary is what this whole journey has become, talking about like speaking out.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:45.039
I because I worked for so many different boutiques in the news and doing everything, photography, moving image, and then writing things, I was never actually able, like I was working so creatively, but I wasn't able to tell my story.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:50.319
It would be like an artist who paints, but they're limited to only painting house walls.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:55.759
Like, you know, it's yeah, they're doing the painting, but it's it's missing a piece of them, right?
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.319
It like that's that's pretty much what I equate it to.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:08.880
Like, I was blessed to work so creatively, but when you're not giving yourself into it, it just becomes monotonous.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:11.440
It's it it if anything, it drains you.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.079
It starts draining you, and that's with my seizures.
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.320
Like, I I had to put a boundary down too.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:18.400
I'm like, this is not okay.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.159
This is not produced, this, this is not productive.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:31.840
And even before I get a bit more into the journey that I'm that I'm the new journey, you know, then the new world perspective that I have now.
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:44.400
Um, one thing that I've I'm starting to do, and I'm taking a lot of the lessons from the nonprofit I currently work with, the Tucson Pops orchestra, I decided to start another nonprofit.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:51.440
So I may be leaving the Tucson Pops, but um this one is I'm calling it seizing and pleasing.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:58.079
And that's that's on my um, that actually used to be my username like on Instagram way, like I don't know, a decade ago.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:06.719
But I because I used to feel so insecure about my seizures, I decided to kind of start saying that and having a play on words.
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:12.639
And then um I it it kind of always kept in the back of my mind like some friends from back then, they would know me as that.
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:35.360
But I decided I'm like, you know what, I want to create a nonprofit that shamed the struggles and the differences in that that we have with society and and and may my my goal is to even have like a support group where um at some point I can have like a neurologist from the area come in and and and different things like that.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:41.519
Because when you're in a neurologist's office, I've seen so many, and I've been in doctors' offices since I can remember.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.039
It's it's you know, like I'm sure I don't have to tell you, it's very stale.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:50.559
It's the the way you speak to them is very technical, it's it's void of emotions.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:58.800
And I think that it would be great to, as bureaucratic as the medical industry is becoming, I think it'd be great to have some of those come in.
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:14.880
And um, like I've had some neurologists who embrace that I use cannabis oils, but then I've met, you know, a psychiatrist that is so, you know, like, uh, marijuana, you know, like it's it's amazing how all of this works.
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:27.280
But anyway, so um I filed like my articles of incorporation and um I'll try not to show my address again, but like I like I I finally got some of the the state of California stuff.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.000
So um I'm you know, baby steps, baby steps.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:31.039
That's what I'm trying to do.
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.599
I'm um I'm not trying to overwhelm myself.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:37.440
I want to be consistent, especially if I'm starting up a new YouTube series.
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:45.599
Um, but I'm I I want to do a lot and I know that God has put me here for a certain reason.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:54.880
Like I mentioned in um your previous episodes that I'm although I've gone through everything, it hasn't ruined my faith.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:03.360
Like I still have whether people in Calvary Chapel would, you know, agree with it, I still have a relationship with God.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:04.239
I know I do.
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.280
I'm I I pray, I'm I'm I'm thankful.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.239
I'm having to remind myself, like, oh yeah, this is you know, this is all because of God.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:20.400
And even though you may not have wanted this, like it's good for you to suck up your pride, come to your hometown.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:27.440
And even if it's controlled by the cult that you grew up in, at least you have a safe haven.
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:28.719
And that's how I feel right here.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.960
I'm like, thank God I have a safe haven.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:39.119
Um, you know, we don't need to leave our homes to do a lot nowadays, but it's yeah, it's kind of triggering to be back in this area.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:40.480
But I'm like, you know what?
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:41.440
I can do stuff.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:56.880
I can, you know, I can start up a nonprofit, I can collect more, I don't want to say collect more evidence against my parents, but uh, you know, I can I can understand more and I can see things around the house that I missed when I was little, right?
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:10.639
Because you there's so many things that you overlook, but like those DVDs for$60 or like VHS tapes and all these things that are supposed to bring you closer to God when even in the Bible it says all you need is the word.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:16.480
And like, you know, the word was there in the beginning, and God's the you know, the alpha and the mega.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:39.199
So it's it's I I'm I'm excited to do all this, but I understand that it's I am gonna face adversity because these systems of control are all throughout, you know, this beach paradise, but this whole inland section that I, you know, that runs up and down the state, I live in that inland section.
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:50.480
And and here in an area like this, that is where like that is where an organization like Freemasonry can actually have more influence.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:55.760
That is where an organization like Calvary Chapel can indoctrinate more people.
00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:01.920
Like my sister, when she was living in Long Beach, she would go to um the Calvary Chapel Marietta.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.199
It's like one of the biggest ones.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:06.719
I think it holds like 4,000 people or something like that.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.880
And like, like, how are you supposed to get a personal relationship, you know, there, like going there?
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:20.719
Like, how like I'm sure a lot of those people go there just to check off on their list that they went to church, or you know, just to have that good feeling, like, okay, I tithe.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:21.360
This is okay.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:23.119
Now, you know, I'm not going to hell.
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:31.360
And, you know, down here in an area like this, you do have an opportunity to meet everybody in the church.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:59.039
And that's great for some people who want that, but when you start asking questions, and then especially even like my lawyer had told me that his one of his buddies, because they were from the LA area, like one of his buddies went to the Calvary Chapel College over there and asked a question, and their Pope equivalent, Chuck Smith, like berated him, and then everybody in the classroom was like, Oh, I guess we don't ask questions.
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.559
And that's what it trains you to do.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:03.840
It trains you to be subservient.
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:15.119
And my brother became like that, my sister like soaked all of that up, and I have just been rebellious.
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:22.159
Like, I tried to portray all that, but again, there are just too many things that I could not ignore.
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.280
Thank you for sharing all of that.
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:36.719
I'm really excited that you're gonna be doing your own YouTube channel and providing your personal opinions and how you see things based off your experiences.
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:37.920
I think that's brilliant.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.000
And I also think it's really terrifying.
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:52.400
The news and media, it's already a terrifying industry to begin with, just from the outside, knowing how much is kind of smoke and mirrors that we see on our end on the other side of the TV.
00:40:52.639 --> 00:41:07.280
But when you look at it objectively from your end, being behind the camera of what we see and understanding the the environment, I mean, that sounds very cultish in itself that they try to really keep you contained.
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:11.199
You're not allowed to really express outside of their views.
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:16.880
You can't be yourself on social media, you can't grow, you know, it's like they're trying to contain you.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:22.800
So your voice and your own opinions and what you think doesn't go beyond theirs.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:26.559
They need to have sort of the final say and the big roar.
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:34.800
And I'm not surprised either, even with what you're saying with Next Top Model, that they hinder the success of the winners on that show.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:35.599
I mean, how's that?
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:53.039
It's it's things like that that make me understand how you know this world can let people get away with uh, you know, PDF files.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:42:01.199
Like, like the that that system, I think people have to become so sick that only something like that can bring them pleasure.
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.800
And it's that control, it's always about the control.
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:13.360
It's yes, money is a form of control, but those secrets are a form of control, those invisible chains that you lock in and you think, oh, great.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:21.599
And whether it's, you know, someone like a top model winner realizing, like, oh, I can't actually do as much as I want to now.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:30.639
Like, yeah, I get these smoke and mirrors, hundred thousand dollar cover girl contract, you know, whatever, whatever, but I can't really do anything else.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:37.280
And it ends up showing and kind of like by the grace of God, like if you didn't win, that's actually better for you.
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:42.800
And that's a great way of even how I kind of feel now.
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:43.920
I'm like, you know what?
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.719
I think it's so good that I didn't go any further in the church.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:58.880
I was doing the the awanas, which is like, you know, you there are different portions of it, but I I helped the kids exercise because they saw that I was very active.
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.400
Um, and then we we, I don't know, we talk about a verse or we share a verse.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:03.679
It was very, it's very simple.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:08.559
It was like once a week, but then doing their vacation Bible schools and then getting involved with their youth group.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:10.559
I was I was really getting in.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.440
And I think that that's what they were trying to train me for.
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.039
They were like, here's this kid who has all this enthusiasm.
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.920
He's been in the church since he was born and raised.
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.719
Like he's literally grown up with everything.
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:24.480
Let's now keep him in.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:28.559
But then as I started to ask these questions, I started to do my own thing.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:37.280
That's when I started getting resistance, and that's when I would get called in, whether it was the assistant pastor, the lead pastor.
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:47.760
And it was, it was if I if I would have been insecure and thinking, wait, what's wrong with me?
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:55.199
And and even though I did have moments like that, I eventually realized like, oh crap, I have to make a decision for myself.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:57.280
I can't play other people's games.
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:12.480
And even though I'm outside Of that, like those negative feedback loops that you you it it's it's in my body, it's not just mentally in my you know in my memories, it it it embeds itself.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:14.559
Like they say, the body keeps the score.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:25.199
And so I have to now like remind myself, okay, Caleb, you don't need to actually go to anybody else to verify your thoughts.
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:29.280
And that was something that I was constantly doing because it's what we're trained for.
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.519
It's like, okay, that's a great idea.
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:40.559
And if they don't say, pray on it, then they'll say, let's talk to um the pastor's wife about this.
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:45.760
Um, let's talk to, or let's like you, like you want to do tech.
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:49.119
Okay, let's get you involved in the tech for the church.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:55.679
It was always like whatever I wanted to do on my own, it always ended up being turned back to the church.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:20.159
And since I don't have that church now, I'm like, okay, my I I I have to fight to not let my it probably sounds so weird to a person who's never been in a cult, but it's like every time I had a thought, I needed someone to I guess validate it for lack of better words.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:23.280
And and and that's what I've been battling with now.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:24.400
I'm like, you know what?
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:33.360
If I don't validate myself, then I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna always be looking for validation from other people.
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:35.519
Does that make sense?
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:36.880
Absolutely.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:45.039
I've heard that so many times that that's a very difficult thing, getting out of these environments because, and it's not just validation, but you look for guidance.
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:50.880
You're not allowed to really have agency on where that idea gets funneled and how it's able to manifest.
00:45:51.119 --> 00:46:12.400
Somebody tells you, and usually it's contained within the cult, your skills, your passions, they're used for things that the people in the cult want them to be used for, ways that benefit the cult, not in ways that you can go take it in the world and be practical with it or start your own business, or let's take a course on this outside of the church, you know, wherever the cult is, we'll use the church as the example.
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.000
It's all funneled back in.
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:15.519
You know, oh, you're really good at tech.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:16.079
Well, guess what?
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:17.039
Why don't you do it here?
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:18.719
We have all we have a huge job for you.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:19.440
You can do it here.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.159
Oh, you're good at you're active and you're athletic.
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.480
Let's let's put you in here and you can work with the kids.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:25.679
Oh, you're good at music.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.199
Why don't you sing on the the choir or you can play an instrument?
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:38.000
You know, it's like they try to almost contain it and they shut your imagination off to where you can almost imagine all the different ways that you can take that skill out into the world.
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:48.719
It's something you have to retrain yourself for, like using your imagination and not just being told what to do with your free thought.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:50.239
Oh yeah.
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.239
Uh you you said it perfectly.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.280
Like I know I can write.
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:56.960
I've written under extreme pressures.
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:01.360
Like I've always been a writer, but I've written under extreme pressures that the news industry puts you on.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:06.480
Like get it out before competition, you know, this is this is gonna be old news if it's released later.
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:07.840
Like that type of stuff.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:14.079
I've I've I can photograph editorial-wise, like I'm so skilled with my lighting.
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:20.480
Um like moving images, I can edit in every single format, vertical, horizontal.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:37.360
Um, you know, they're just like I know I'm capable of all these things, but what this whole last year has reminded me and put to my forefront is like Caleb, you struggled to do that for yourself.
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:45.360
Like, yes, you were making money doing this for other people, but why couldn't you ever do it for yourself?
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.039
Like I had to ask myself, why couldn't I ever do this for myself?
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:55.519
And all I could really tell myself was, you have no excuse.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:00.000
Like the like the only thing that was holding you back, you've let go.
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.199
So when people are like, what do I do now?
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:10.239
That's kind of you know, that's kind of where I'm I'm getting over that hill, literally, like right now as we speak.
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:23.599
And the journaling is helping the the steps moving forward with organizing a nonprofit that I I can be in charge of and not, you know, not manipulate others, use to build up others.
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:30.800
And it's it it's I I have told myself at moments like, why didn't you do this years ago?
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.360
But also you didn't know what you know, right?
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:34.880
Like all these years ago.
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:42.800
And because you've done every like everything over the last 33 years now, you actually have a perspective.
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.199
And if anything, it's your own perspective.
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:58.159
And I, from what I'm gathering, thanks to you, the comments, um, even on my TikTok, even if they are a bit more superficial on my TikTok, uh, what I'm gathering is like I have a voice.
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:08.960
And and and again, everybody has a voice, but a lot of people are letting their voice be so pigeonholed, they're not actually expressing themselves.
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.920
And and and I think that that's probably going to be something I have to go through.
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:30.320
Those, you know, each time I I think of a thought, you know, I I I'm going to probably have to, hopefully not till I die, but for the next decade, I foresee myself having to get out of that feedback loop because it's engraved in my body.
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:32.079
It's the first thing I ever knew.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.440
Like one of my earliest memories was at Calvary Chapel and them shutting me down.
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:38.400
And I was a child.
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.119
I was like, I thought Jesus already came back.
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:42.800
And they're like, no, he's coming again.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.639
But I'm like, okay, he was born.
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.639
So that's the first time he was second.
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.559
You know, he he he died and then rose.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:50.079
So that would be the second, right?
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:52.559
Why do you guys keep saying his second coming?
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:54.239
Like, like that's a common.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:03.679
I know a lot of different types of churches use that, but especially with Calvi Chapel, they're like, they're that's that's something that's always mentioned, Jesus' second coming.
00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:11.199
So like I remember being a little kid, no, like I I I think I may have mentioned this before, but not in as much detail.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.840
And so I was only like six, seven.
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:18.639
I sorry, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to do that whole six, seven trying to just happen.
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:24.320
But I was, I, you know, I was really young, and I remember them just shutting me down and being like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:26.559
And again, just you know, trying to distract me.
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:41.519
And that's what I not only am moving past now, but I'm like, okay, the distractions that I used in the past, I'll be honest, were like there was, you know, there was a lot of drinking at Penn State.
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:50.239
You know, there was in the news industry, there's a lot of drinking, and you know, it's something you do to go out and schmooze with whether it's your team or with your your new story that you might have.
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.960
Like, that's a lot, and people can get lost in that.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:51:01.199
And I almost did for a little bit because I would have the thought of like Calvary Chapel at the back of my mind, and then, you know, after a couple of drinks, it goes away.
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:07.599
And then you can focus with this person, but I still end up waking up and thinking like something's not right.
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:09.440
I need to move past this.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:12.159
And that's what I'm doing now with all these things.
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:14.800
I'm like, okay, I don't need to be clubbing.
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:17.519
Why can't I just have a nonprofit?
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:21.519
Or why can't I put this towards a new YouTube series?
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:23.679
Like, this is this is the new TV.
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:28.079
Like, this is what TV wishes, you know, it could have been.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:29.519
And this isn't going anywhere.
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:33.280
Like, we've seen how YouTube changed the tech industry.
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:35.119
And that was like 20 years ago, right?
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.360
So, like, it's given people like you a platform.
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:57.760
Like, why can't I use it just to just just to speak out and share not just the news stuff, but as I'm talking about it, yeah, I'll be kind of giving little bits of, oh, I used to think the way this headline is saying, but here's actually what they're trying to tell you, and giving those little bits of info.
00:51:58.480 --> 00:51:59.280
I love that.
00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:07.199
I'm so excited for this and to hear sort of your own objective thoughts, like I said, based off your experience and then you know what you've learned since then.
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:09.760
And so I'm gonna have your YouTube page linked below.
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:14.000
And then for people listening, you probably noticed, but YouTube allows collaborations now.
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:21.280
So right on the subscribe button on my channel, you guys can actually click that and it'll bring up Caleb's channel as well because we've been collaborating every episode.
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.519
So please go subscribe to his YouTube channel.
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:25.440
You'll see some fresh content on there.
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:44.639
Um, and I really love too, Caleb, that you've brought up a really good point just about ways that a victim is impacted after they leave their high control group, their cult, their home environment, whatever the toxic environment is, the natural reaction I feel society has a lot of times is to living a normal life.
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:45.760
You're so lucky.
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:51.119
And even the victim, I think, sometimes anticipates that it'll get really easy as soon as they leave.
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:52.800
It'll just be like a breath of fresh air.
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:53.920
And that's not always the case.
00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:05.039
And you brought up negative feedback loops, and one being just the ability to have free thought without needing to have it validated by the cult or the environment.
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:16.880
Could you talk about more unexpected maybe triggers or pitfalls or negative feedback loops that happen to you and that that you know happen at once you leave that might not be anticipated?
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:22.400
I think this would be validating for survivors and very educational for non-survivors.
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:24.960
Yeah.
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:42.320
That control that you have over you, not only are you now missing a group of people that you used to be able to rely on, but you're also like there's like a huge emptiness.
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.239
It's like a different type of void.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:48.320
And you're like, okay, how do I fill this?
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:56.960
And I know that people who leave group or who leave cults are more likely to join another cult because it's what you're programmed for.
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:03.599
Like you're the coding that makes you up is literally seeking that out.
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:15.440
You seek it out because your parents sought it out, and then you saw them, and everybody around you had that mentality, and you don't realize like it's more than speaking Christianese.
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:18.719
It's you know, like, oh, God bless you, or let's pray on that.
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:20.000
Like it's more than that.
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:27.519
It's you have this ultimate leeway to do whatever you want.
00:54:27.760 --> 00:55:12.000
And for some people, they are going to try to fill it with substances, and I don't blame them because you're you you just need something to fill that void, and it's it it it I I really want to explain it for people that have never been to think like, okay, this control system is now gone, you must be able to do whatever you want, but you can't like like you don't have a support system anymore, you don't have anybody you can talk to without them thinking you're crazy, you don't have the life that you did before.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:17.280
And just so for anybody who's never been in a cult, just think about it that way.
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:26.480
Like, imagine the work, the whatever company they were a part of, imagine all that just gone.
00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:35.920
Like, yeah, you can still do what you used to do, like technical wise, but you don't you're you're you're kind of a new person.
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:56.480
It's it it really, and and I've heard a lot of your guests say that, like you're kind of brand new and you don't understand, you're like, okay, this is me, I know it's me, like this is me in the mirror, but how did I not live like this for the past, in my case, for the past 33 years?
00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:02.239
Like, like I was trying to, I was trying to keep everybody happy.
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:11.840
I was trying to not be an outcast in the church, but like all of that was never because I loved God.
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:23.519
It was only because the mindset was centered around this group of people and and our and our congregation of Calvary Chapel.
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:51.199
And it's it really is this huge void that you you it it's not it's not just the environment, it's like no matter where I go, if I go to San Diego, if I go back to Tucson, if I go to LA, I now have this part of me that is like, oh, I can do this, uh, but should I do this?
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:59.840
There's like a second guessing because you're so used to getting that confirmation from someone else.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.280
Like you you if anything, it I I feel like a child.
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.239
I feel like a child growing up again.
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:25.440
And I don't know really how else to say it, but that's that's that I I I hope other people can identify with that and understand that it's like I know I'm me, but this is it it it literally is like an unveiling.
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:41.519
It's it's it's a true revelation to just be like, whoa, uh I was uh uh conforming and submitting myself to something and yes, it's willingly, but I also have to give credit to myself, and so should other people.
00:57:41.679 --> 00:57:43.119
They should give credit to themselves.
00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:53.840
That especially in my case, like being born and raised in, you you I really had no choice until I realized, oh, I do have a choice.
00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:55.760
Does that make sense?
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:57.199
Absolutely.
00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.039
And thank you for sharing that.
00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:25.599
It's just so amazing how misunderstood victimization is and what abuse actually looks like, that it's not just this hands-on thing that impacts somebody physically, just how the layers deep it goes, especially when it starts in childhood, how toxic that can be as a child is growing into adulthood and all the things that they have to relearn and reteach themselves right down to boundaries.
00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:31.920
You know, something every child should be taught right off the bat, as soon as they can, you know, understand language, what a boundary is.
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:44.159
And here we have you and other, you know, uh adult child abuse victims having to establish that as a grown adult, figuring out, wait, I never had an example of a boundary.
00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:54.559
How do I even go about teaching myself that, you know, and having to carefully look at everything in your life objectively, like you said, just like a child would have to when they're learning and when they're being taught.
00:58:54.719 --> 00:59:02.719
Only you're doing all the work yourself in a lot a lot of times, or looking on YouTube or going to therapy, whatever it is, of course, there's different help.
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:34.400
But, you know, having to reestablish things that should have been taught as a child to where you had your whole life to develop those things so you could enforce them confidently and without having to think as an adult, that does have to be very strange to now have to look at everything in your life and like stop before you make a decision and ask if it's being led by what what the cult had you believe or what they taught you, or whether it's your own free thought and free will making that decision for you.
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:47.119
Yeah, that second guessing is the the challenge now is wait, is this like my own intuitive feeling, or is this because of what I was taught to do?
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:52.880
That's really what it's what it's if if if I can say it more simply, that's what it is.
00:59:53.199 --> 01:00:05.599
And then on top of that, you have every traumatic piece of you that's been repressed and pushed down now starts to come up.
01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:18.159
And some people can see that as you know, they're they're going insane, or you can realize, okay, I can't control what that person thinks.
01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:22.320
I am probably gonna look crazy to people who have lost themselves in this cult.
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:22.960
I get it.
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:28.159
Like I wanted to prove a lot of people wrong, but now I'm like, okay, I get it.
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:29.760
This is gonna look crazy.
01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:41.760
If if if somebody who's been a devotee of Calvary Chapel their whole life were to Google anything about Calvary Chapel being a cult, they would probably think it's crazy because there aren't just my stories.
01:00:41.840 --> 01:00:45.920
The reason why I even became willing was because I, you know, I Googled that first.
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:51.599
I did all like I watched other people and I was like, yeah, what they're talking about is what I went through.
01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:58.960
And not only did that give me the courage, but it made me realize, oh yeah, I've been repressing a lot of things.
01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:21.840
And I think that that was even detrimental for my seizures because with epilepsy, you have a seizure tolerance, and the more stress you're under, like I remember whenever I would be performing for the church, I would come home after and I would just be like, I don't want to talk to anybody, like I want to have the lights off, like I don't, you know, it was draining me.
01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:33.679
And part of that is being autistic, and I didn't realize I was masking a lot of the time, but also it's like it's like a it's a performance going.
01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:44.000
And I know not all churches are like this, but when you have churches like Calvary Chapel, it is a performance, and you're going in pretending to be this person.
01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:52.239
And even though the pastor tells you, you know, we're all sinners, nobody's perfect, um, it's it, it, it was like play pretend.
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:54.719
That's the way that I can kind of put it.
01:01:54.880 --> 01:02:11.840
And even like recently I had um, I talked to my parents about um a differences within the Bible and the reason why like people don't believe Jesus is the Messiah.
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:14.239
And I wasn't saying Jesus wasn't the wasn't the Messiah.
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:17.840
All I all I was saying was I was like, look, these are reasons why.
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:24.320
And if you challenge yourself to look up things, you might think differently.
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:33.440
But all my parents hear is I'm challenging them and I'm doubting what they have been indoctrinated with.
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.280
And like, that's never what I said.
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:51.280
I have to be so particular now with my family because even and and it's it's kind of at a loss, like, because even if I do try to do that, I know that they're gonna only take away what they want to hear because they're still locked into that mindset.
01:02:51.440 --> 01:03:02.880
And that's it, it's great that I can kind of realize that, but I'm also like like I want them, you know, I want to just shake them and wake them up.
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:12.159
And I'm sure a lot of people on who have been your guests can understand that like you want to just shake people and get them to understand you.
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:14.960
And that's and that's like a different type of trauma too.
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:30.400
Like, like we were always told to go out and talk about Jesus or to put a, you know, to put on a fight, like, you know, put on the like guard yourself, guard your heart, and like, you know, put on the the armor of God.
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:40.000
And I and I'm not and I'm not saying that none of that is healthy, but when you think about that, like I was always on defense.
01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:45.760
I would, I would get into, I would make arguments when people weren't even trying to argue.
01:03:46.000 --> 01:04:10.800
Or, you know, just we were we were sharing about our our beliefs, and I didn't even know how to hear other people's stories because I was so like I remember in college, one of the like we were in our like student government office, and one of the girls said that she was Catholic, and I was like, oh, like I immediately got put up a wall.
01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:15.840
And like I've already said on this podcast that I think Catholicism is like the world's biggest goal.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:36.480
But um, even even at that time, all I all I knew was what they had told us in the church of Catholics are so ritualistic, they you know, they murmur off and recite something, and then the um their their preacher or is it a pastor or preacher?
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:41.360
I forget in the Catholic Church, but I think priests or priests, there you go, thank you.
01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:45.119
And then their priest tells them, okay, your sins have been forgiven, like you're good.
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:53.519
And I had always been told that that was very pagan, that that was demonic, it goes against what the Bible says, like the only mediator should be between you and God.
01:04:53.920 --> 01:05:08.719
And so I would, I would when whenever I would encounter even my external family members, because a lot of them are Catholic, like I always had this wall up, and any type of religious comment would like spark a fire in me.
01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:13.039
And I don't think it was always for the glory of God, really.
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:16.320
I think it was just because that was what I was told to do.
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:18.559
That's how I was trained to be.
01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:21.760
And I was always on the defense.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:25.440
And so now it's being in this new mindset.
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:30.239
I'm like, oh, I actually want to hear what you have to say about Islam.
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:34.320
I actually want to hear what you have to say about, you know, this.
01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:59.679
I haven't had this encounter yet, but if they're, you know, from a tribe in the Amazon, like I want to hear what you guys talk about, you know, like I actually want to because not doing so is just I think it's disrespectful, even not just to that person, but to yourself to be that closed minded and to not like automatically just have this wall of Jesus, you know, keeping you from just.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:04.000
Being a good person, that's that's really how I'm I I see it now.
01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:11.840
Like I've heard so many stories, and of course they're anecdotal, but they're you know, they'll say like Christians can be the most judgmental.
01:06:11.920 --> 01:06:19.760
And I'm like, yeah, like it's and of course that's not a blanket statement, but really like the ones that I encountered really were.
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:31.280
And the more that I started to because I used to hair model, like I had my eyebrows bleached for a photo shoot, and then um like even a salon down here um bleached my hair years ago.
01:06:31.440 --> 01:06:39.199
Um, and you know, I was always I I think I was only accepted because they're like, oh, it's modeling, you know, it's creative work.
01:06:39.440 --> 01:06:40.719
They kind of knew that about me.
01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:51.360
But when I started to do some of those things, and after coming back from New York, I I could tell that people were like, should this kid be in our church?
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:55.360
Like, this isn't what I signed up for to have people like this around.
01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:59.920
That's that's at least, you know, reading them and thinking back on it.
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:01.440
That's how I felt.
01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:06.480
And that's like the cult environment, you know, it's this way.
01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:10.880
And if you're not part of this, then you're not included.
01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:26.960
You are outside of us, and that's done so deliberately, especially for you know, children or young adults like you who do start to step outside and tiptoe outside or completely step or jump outside of the little contained box that they put you in.
01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:32.159
They want you to feel insecure about it and for other people to question you.
01:07:32.320 --> 01:08:06.239
And I feel that's such a big thing, unfortunately, that a lot of religious institutions maybe not promote um through words, but just through the environment, it becomes this sort of cult-like thing where people are so diehard about what's told to them or what's accepted in that small contained group that anything outside of it that challenges that, whether it's a different belief, whether it's how somebody looks, whether it's what somebody has done in their life, anything, you know, it all of a sudden, like you said, it people put up that wall and they're like, oh, you're outside of us.
01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:08.400
Like you need, I'm putting a boundary up.
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:11.519
You know, I don't want to know what you have to say because you're not like me.
01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:16.960
And that's a really dangerous spot to be in because it really helps contain the toxicity.
01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:21.680
It keeps you from seeing that there's a whole world out there, just like the news does, which you discovered.
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:23.920
You know, it just gives you these two stories.
01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:30.640
You look outside of that and it's all of a sudden independent or conspiracy if if you look and ask a question outside of what they tell you.
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:37.439
When that's like really where the truth is, when where you realize, wow, like we're not all so different than what they think.
01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:44.479
You know, the people that are really different than us are the ones telling us that we're all different from each other, like we're all really similar.
01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:50.640
It's them that are the outcasts, and they're trying to make us feel like we're the outcasts, you know, if we don't think like them.
01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:52.880
So it's a really backwards ideology.
01:08:53.119 --> 01:09:03.039
But I think it's amazing that, you know, like like I said, it's just for not having strong examples of people around you critically thinking and asking questions.
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:16.800
I'm just mind-blown that you were able to constantly um kind of rebel against that your entire life, despite always being shut down and not really being encouraged to have free thought.
01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:31.279
Yeah, I mean that I've always had that rebellious nature, whether it was just simply being curious, but I never lost my enthusiasm.
01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:44.079
And I and I I you know, I I pray, I'm I I wish well for the people who have lost their enthusiasm, not just in the cults, but the ones who have come out because I know that they'll find it.
01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:47.680
They just need to, it sounds so cheesy, but they just need to look inside.
01:09:47.760 --> 01:09:54.880
They need to realize, wow, I was robbed of a personality, I was robbed of free thought.
01:09:55.199 --> 01:10:00.399
And I was told that I was doing it all for the glory of God.
01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:29.439
And because, you know, we're not all wearing black robes, you know, and and like just basic uniform, because we're not all like that, it makes it even more it kind of maybe maybe you could say like gaslights you in a way because you're like, okay, now is every person a secret agent Calvary Chapel person?
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:39.439
You know, like like like that can run through your mind or through whatever, you know, is now every other person as a secret agent CIA, like, no, like that would be completely delusional, right?
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:46.640
But but but that becomes a thought because you're like, well, every Calvary Chapel member, you know, just stressed like you know, a regular person.
01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:52.960
Um what's gonna keep me from understanding of somebody else's Calvary Chapel?
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:56.720
Like, right, they could be secretly um trying to get information.
01:10:56.880 --> 01:11:06.000
And like that's that, you know, that kind of goes like way, way past conspiracy, like, you know, way, way down the rabbit hole.
01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:22.159
But that's something that you have to, or at least I'm actively trying to understand, like, no, you were in a situation where everybody was, and you did it for so long now, but that doesn't mean everybody else is.
01:11:22.319 --> 01:11:33.279
And if anything, really, what this has taught me, and it might be the autistic pattern recognition, what this has taught me is I can tell when somebody's trying to get something out of me as soon as I encounter them.
01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:42.880
And it starts with a lot of, you know, people like to say that narcissists have that like love bombing effect, and it goes beyond just compliments and recognition.
01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:53.279
It's just like constant showering and all that, and then they discard you and you never or or or they keep you around just to um make you hope that it would be like that.
01:11:53.520 --> 01:11:58.880
Um like, like I realized how much that it was like that in the church.
01:11:59.039 --> 01:12:06.239
Like once I started to kind of break away, weren't like they were it was more like they're just dealing with me.
01:12:06.399 --> 01:12:11.760
But then I would get little glimpses of, you know, you have such a light, Caleb.
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:17.600
Your your your discernment is so is such a godsend, you know, like little things like that.
01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:19.199
But then nothing else.
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:27.279
It was just like that Christianese, which I equate to that love bombing that people uh generally attribute to narcissists.
01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:31.760
You have you have that, and that can really make someone think they're going crazy.
01:12:31.920 --> 01:13:00.319
And and I think that that's what does lead to other people to think, well, everybody in my life's a secret agent, CIA, you know, if they came out of the MK Ultra program, or like if if even just for me, like, you know, you you it's it's having that new mindset and understanding, like it's it's a combination of the of the looking for approval, the looking for validation, because that's what this the cults used to give you, but then also being like, no, like I don't need that.
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:06.319
So you so you kind of have like a two-way conversation in your head, or at least that's what I'm you know, that's what I'm feeling.
01:13:06.560 --> 01:13:19.279
And I'm sure others can understand that like you you can't get lost in the newfound freedom, for lack of better words, because you very much can.
01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:31.920
It's not even just that people can use drugs, it's that you can you can lose yourself in your mind realizing that everything from the past X amount of years was not how you perceived it.
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:50.960
You you it is that 180 where you're able to look around, but you realize like, oh, like like uh an example in New York when I went to a Calvary Chapel affiliate over there, there's they they they have an affiliate called Harvest, um, like Harvest Church.
01:13:51.039 --> 01:13:51.920
I don't know if you've heard about it.
01:13:52.000 --> 01:14:00.159
It's much smaller, but a lot of harvest churches have kind of been it's like it's like if Calvary Chapel, the Monopoly kind of like came in and took, you know, took a smaller one.
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:01.840
That's that's that's pretty much what happened.
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:13.920
And I remember being in New York and looking up Calvary Chapels, and then there was one there, and I told them because I wanted to work, I had worked a ton of years at Abercrombie, and I was like, oh, they have a manager and training program.
01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:14.720
Why don't I do this?
01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:21.520
Like, you know, it's it's a job, it's something I'm I I know I could do since I knew this store very, very well.
01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:34.000
I I remember sharing that, and not only did I share that there, but then when I came back to Southern California, our mall, there's not an Abercrombie, but there's a Hollister, and it's the same company.
01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:45.760
I remember sharing with another church member down here who grew up in the church and was older, but I remember saying, Oh yeah, I I want to enter, like I I think I could do the manager and training program.
01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:47.840
You know, it's it's a job, it's what I can do.
01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:51.439
And I got the same exact reaction from both.
01:14:51.600 --> 01:14:55.840
And it took me years of self-reflection to understand what they were doing.
01:14:55.920 --> 01:15:00.319
But I remember getting the same reaction and they were like, Do you is that what you really want to do?
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:11.439
And I never like in the moment when that happened, I thought, like, I remember feeling confused.
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:14.880
I was like, um, yeah, can't you hear how enthusiastic I am?
01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:24.399
Like, like I like I I was, you know, I was trying to, like, I was talking about it like expressively, like very what's the word, vehemently.
01:15:24.479 --> 01:15:28.319
Like I was, I was, I would, I would, I was just going on and on and on.
01:15:28.560 --> 01:15:31.760
And then they were like, yeah, is that what you really want to do though?
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:39.119
And I remember because that one in New York was so small, I think they were like desperate to keep anybody in.
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:52.000
And even here, because he was um the one that I shared that with, he was a teacher at the community college or the the the Calvary Chapel El Central College, because they used to have a little college campus down here.
01:15:52.239 --> 01:15:58.640
And I remember him saying, he was like, not only did he say the same thing as the other one, like, is that what you really want to do?
01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:02.560
But then he was, he told me, Oh, like, you know what you should do?
01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:05.359
I think you need to think, I think you need some time to think.
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:09.119
Um, come enroll in our Jude class.
01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:11.840
And so I was like, okay, sure.
01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:14.079
You know, I've always been very willing.
01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:23.520
And I understand that that can come across as like um a little, um, what do they say, like wet behind the ears.
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:28.399
But uh um, I I always just saw it as like, yeah, sure, why not?
01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:35.600
But looking back, I now realize like, oh, they were just trying to like, like kind of what we talked about, they were trying to sway me.
01:16:35.840 --> 01:16:53.760
So now in my life, understanding all of that, I have to not just really rely on the discernment in reading people through pattern recognition, I also have to understand some of these people could be playing the game even better than me or the game of life, so to speak.
01:16:54.000 --> 01:17:27.520
So I have to not it, it, I don't want to say it like I have to not trust people and that wall that I used to have up, that wall of Jesus, it's like now I have hedge bushes where I'm like, okay, I can see you, but you gotta, I hate to say this, I'm like, you gotta prove a lot because I've been through a lot and I've seen a lot of different types of people, especially within Calvary Chapel, and bringing in all those types of people.
01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:37.279
I've seen now self-reflecting, I've seen what their comments do and what they and how low-key they try to sway you.
01:17:37.439 --> 01:17:51.840
So it's it's so like I really do, I I empathize and I have I have such hope for the people who are in similar situations for me because it's like they must be going through this as well.
01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:57.359
They're they they're like, okay, I can do things, but how do I do the things?
01:17:57.520 --> 01:18:00.239
And and the how isn't so much as in making it happen.
01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:05.840
It's like, how do I now just as a sole individual make this happen?
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:07.840
Absolutely.
01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:19.840
And that's such an important topic because it's another thing that people like me who didn't grow up in an environment like that, I've never had to think about that on the streets, you know, meeting new people.
01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:28.800
Could this person be in a cult or trying to harm me or trying to kill me or trying to lure me back into somewhere?
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:33.279
And that's actually a very real problem in this survivor community.
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:43.359
You know, these are people that are coming from very powerful attachments and connections, you know, and like you were saying, you were born into this.
01:18:43.520 --> 01:18:56.319
So think about the investment that this church made on you, all the money that you said your family has invested in this church, all the hours that went into coaching you and priming you and conditioning you and programming you to have a pathway.
01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:59.279
And now all of a sudden their investment is gone.
01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:07.600
You're, you know, on your own, you're creating things that you could have done for the church on your own time and in your own way.
01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:13.359
Like that's a big loss for them to have decades of investment in somebody.
01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:28.000
And now they're just free in the real world and they're waking up and they're talking, potentially keeping other people talking through the doors or potentially having other people leave that, like you were, you know, a decades-long project for them.
01:19:28.239 --> 01:19:42.479
And so when you think about just the investment that a cult makes on just even one person, whether that's in a church environment, whether that's in a satanic cult, whether that's through the CIA, you know, MKUltra, whatever it is, these are assets and investments.
01:19:42.560 --> 01:19:50.640
And that's a weird thing because that's not something that many people outside of these environments have ever considered labeling another human.
01:19:50.880 --> 01:20:04.479
But unfortunately, like that's what a cult looks as, looks at a person as, you know, an asset or a liability, but they're looking at like the potential of what you can offer them and the benefit of you.
01:20:04.640 --> 01:20:12.960
Like they're trying to capitalize on your skills and your talents, and they put a lot of investing into your path of growth that they're trying so heavily to control.
01:20:13.359 --> 01:20:21.600
And so getting back and circling back to where I started, you know, that's not something people in outside of these environments ever go through.
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:24.560
Like they're given the freedom to like create, to start businesses.
01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:35.119
They're encouraged by their parents a lot of times to pursue their hobbies, to take courses, to do electives in school that they want, whatever it is, to go to college for the things that they want.
01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:41.039
And it's a very, it's a very strange thing for us on the outside to think about what you guys go through.
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:49.520
But that's such a big problem, is the hands that are coming in to try to lure you back in and trying to scoop you back in and pull you in.
01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:58.640
And they're they come from every which way, which we even see in your own family, you know, just some of the vulnerabilities with Freemasons come in and they're like, hey, join us.
01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:03.119
And because of the conditioning that's already been in your family, there's probably like a very easy yes.
01:21:03.199 --> 01:21:10.000
They probably didn't even do much research on it, just like, oh, that sounds another cult, you know, like another cult type environment.
01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:14.800
But that's kind of like what these, you know, the tentacles reach out to you.
01:21:15.039 --> 01:21:16.399
They're always trying to get you back.
01:21:16.479 --> 01:21:19.760
And so I think it's a really important thing to have discernment.
01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:29.199
It has to be really difficult to look at life that way, where every person that comes your way, you're having to wonder is this person trying to take advantage of me?
01:21:29.359 --> 01:21:30.960
Are they trying to get something from me?
01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:32.560
Are they trying to lure me back in?
01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:35.359
Are they from the environment that I left?
01:21:35.439 --> 01:21:36.800
You know, and it's a trick.
01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:43.680
But unfortunately, that's something we have to be very compassionate about with this community because that literally is how this works.
01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:51.840
Like they want you back, they don't want you, their asset, to have all this, you know, value for the cult out doing their own thing.
01:21:52.000 --> 01:21:57.920
They really want you back working with them and they want to continue what they've invested in you, you know.
01:21:58.159 --> 01:22:00.479
So it's a really, really important topic.
01:22:00.560 --> 01:22:04.479
So it's something that I didn't understand when I first started listening to all of these.
01:22:04.560 --> 01:22:06.239
I'm just like, is this real?
01:22:06.399 --> 01:22:11.039
Like people are stalking with these people, and like why would these people go through so much effort?
01:22:11.199 --> 01:22:24.479
But it's like, man, if I spent, you know, 30 some years trying to create something, and I'm not saying it has to be a person, but if I worked on a project for 30 some years and it was just gone, I'd probably be chasing it too.
01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:43.920
Like, oh my gosh, like that's my I invested so much into that, you know, and so you can see how these cults can be very insidious that way with trying to insert themselves back in your life and how careful you have to be to not to not be susceptible to it and have that discernment.
01:22:44.479 --> 01:22:57.520
Oh yeah, like whether it's something like Nexium, you know, where they specifically were getting all these gorgeous girls and using them to learn in into their pretty much like an MLM, right?
01:22:57.680 --> 01:23:08.880
But then, but but then you give certain ones leadership so they feel more important, and probably more times that leadership fills a void in them that money would never fill.
01:23:08.960 --> 01:23:21.680
So, you know, to them it's not even the money, it's just the title, it's the the presence that everybody is now looking to them, and they get to provide that authority and that um what were we saying?
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:24.319
It wasn't just validation, it was like the direction, right?
01:23:24.479 --> 01:23:32.319
Now they get to, but then you also look at like since a lot of actors and actresses were in that, like I can literally identify with that.
01:23:32.479 --> 01:23:46.560
I even mentioned on I think the um the last one that we did, where looking back, I realized why I identified with musical theater because I wanted to express myself, but also because you're being told what to do.
01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:50.239
You're being told where to stand, how to stand, how to sound.
01:23:52.800 --> 01:23:58.239
Yes, I had so much fun in it, but that's what a lot of those actors and actresses were.
01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:08.960
They were, you know, they there was something in them that, yes, has a gift to, you know, to be brilliant in a way, to have to share that brilliance and to be so adaptable.
01:24:09.119 --> 01:24:17.520
But there's also something in all of us, I say myself, like that, where we need somebody because of what we've been programmed into.
01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:24.880
Like, like how many child stars are speaking out now that are like, this was not a healthy environment, and I was the main breadwinner.
01:24:25.039 --> 01:24:30.159
So it was like my parents telling me I needed to do this more than me wanting to do it.
01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:33.359
Like, yeah, I was great at it, but I didn't actually want to.
01:24:33.520 --> 01:24:39.279
And that's what I you said it in a way that I actually had never even thought about it before.
01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:42.159
Yeah, it was like an asset, like even coming back.
01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:45.359
You talking about that made me think of a different church leader.
01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:47.760
And then his wife ended up calling me later too.
01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:55.920
And I, and the the first one, he was like, Um, hey, I hear you're back in town.
01:24:56.079 --> 01:24:59.039
Um, let's have breakfast or something, something.
01:24:59.359 --> 01:25:03.920
And I ended up telling him, I'm like, Yeah, come over, I'll make you breakfast.
01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:05.680
We don't even have to go out and eat.
01:25:05.920 --> 01:25:09.920
But I think he was trying to get me into an environment.
01:25:10.079 --> 01:25:18.800
I don't know if there would have been other people, but he wanted to me to get into like, like me, me, because of everything I'm going through, I'm like, you're gonna come here.
01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:21.680
Like, you're gonna come to my safe space, right?
01:25:22.000 --> 01:25:28.800
So for me to go where he wanted me to go, I was like, I don't think so.
01:25:28.880 --> 01:25:32.800
So I just politely tried to say, like, you know, let's I'll I'll make breakfast for us.
01:25:32.960 --> 01:25:34.560
We don't even have to spend money.
01:25:34.800 --> 01:25:36.800
And um, he was like, Yeah, sure.
01:25:36.960 --> 01:25:37.920
And then never heard back.
01:25:38.000 --> 01:25:42.880
And then his wife ended up calling me um a bit, I don't know, however many months later.
01:25:43.199 --> 01:25:49.039
But um yeah, and and I would go have like my parents had dinner with them.
01:25:49.279 --> 01:25:53.840
Um I like we used to we used to hang out outside of the church.
01:25:54.159 --> 01:26:05.680
And he even was one of the people because he had like a really bad back surgery, um, or like he had something messed up with his spine and he didn't want to use traditional pharmaceutical meds.
01:26:05.760 --> 01:26:14.079
So when I was working at the cannabis dispensary and I was like their CBD kid because they literally saw I was using all of this, and I was like, Yeah, let me try some of that.
01:26:14.239 --> 01:26:15.920
Oh, this is great for my seizures.
01:26:16.079 --> 01:26:21.920
And he was one of those people who, when he would come in, I was like, Yeah, you I never saw you here.
01:26:22.079 --> 01:26:24.880
Like, you know, I your your secret's safe with me.
01:26:25.119 --> 01:26:44.800
And to know that, like, I would love to rekindle that relationship, but from what I've already seen, they either want me to put in the effort or they don't want they don't want to be in a setting where they're going to be challenged, I guess.
01:26:44.960 --> 01:26:56.479
Um, but it's it's made me look at a lot of that as like, whoa, okay, I really am and are or I was an investment to them.
01:26:56.800 --> 01:27:20.720
And if they are going to try to like, not only was I triangulated with a person during that um legal situation, now they're bringing in like other people, and I'm sure it's gonna happen again, but it's it's hard because you don't want to think again, like like I've I said, like I you don't want to think everybody's a secret agent.
01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:31.359
You want to have hope, but there's also at this point in my life where you're like, no, like I need if somebody really wants to get in touch with me, they're gonna get in touch with me.
01:27:31.760 --> 01:27:33.119
Maybe they'll come to my house or something.
01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:38.720
You know, like my family is prominent enough in the community that it's not a secret.
01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:39.439
I'm here.
01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:45.760
Like I'm I'm it's it's their time to do the work, I guess.
01:27:46.000 --> 01:27:52.239
Like, like I right, like I I don't want to make it so selfish sounding, but no, it's like it's their time to do it.
01:27:52.319 --> 01:27:55.840
I've I've said enough, I've tried enough, I stepped back.
01:27:57.039 --> 01:27:59.760
And it's actually really healthy that you're able to do that even.
01:28:00.079 --> 01:28:11.600
Even though it has to feel violating in some ways to like have to constantly double uh sort of double look at everything that comes your way.
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:15.119
You can't just have a relationship with just anybody that you meet.
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:18.319
Those questions come up and you have to contend with them.
01:28:18.560 --> 01:28:26.560
At the same time, though, from not being top boundaries young, that's actually also like a blessing that you get to exercise that.
01:28:26.800 --> 01:28:35.520
It's just a shame that we're, you know, we're not providing enough support for survivors so they don't have to worry about stuff like that.
01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:39.119
You know, in so many cases, you guys are just kind of like left on your own devices.
01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:45.760
And I'm so grateful that you have support and like have a roof over your head and like are in a place where you feel somewhat safe.
01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:47.600
Like that's so awesome.
01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:53.039
And, you know, I'm sure there's times that you didn't feel that way in certain environments, and there's a lot of people that don't.
01:28:53.199 --> 01:28:57.840
And then they're having to reteach them themselves these things that they should have been taught as children.
01:28:57.920 --> 01:29:09.039
And so you can just see how, you know, they're constantly trying to feed off the vulnerabilities and trying to find sort of your weak points so they can come in and scoop you back up, you know.
01:29:09.119 --> 01:29:15.680
And a lot of survivors are very lonely and looking for relationships, whether that's friendship or otherwise, or somebody just go get coffee with.
01:29:15.840 --> 01:29:28.399
And it's a really easy way to lure somebody back in if they're able to, you know, get you in an environment that's outside of your safety zone where they can kind of get their get their tentacles back and try to lure you back in.
01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:30.960
So, you know, I really appreciate you speaking on that.
01:29:31.119 --> 01:29:37.279
And another thing that you've talked about, even just with some of these people in your community, is that loss.
01:29:37.520 --> 01:29:43.920
I think the reason why a lot of victims don't leave is because the losses that will incur being an investment.
01:29:44.079 --> 01:29:53.119
And unfortunately, you know, it's the the irony is that a lot of these cults destroy self-esteem, destroy self-worth, destroy the ability for somebody to have validation.
01:29:53.199 --> 01:30:04.000
They make you feel like you're not an investment, that you're worthless when behind the scenes they know how valuable you are, and that's why they continue to grow you and program you for these roles and keep you contained.
01:30:04.079 --> 01:30:06.960
They just don't want you to ever realize your own power.
01:30:07.199 --> 01:30:16.800
But I think the problem is a lot of survivors fear losing the comfort of the environment, even if it's toxic, if it's all you've ever known, that can be really scary to leave that.
01:30:17.039 --> 01:30:32.720
Having parents that maybe will never talk to them again, if they're leaving, you know, a group that the parents are heavily involved with, their siblings, leaving possibly money or having a house, if they're living with somebody in the toxic environment that is going to kick them out.
01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:43.439
There's just a lot of losses that have the potential to be incurred, even going to court, you know, if somebody is able to maneuver something like that, or if something happens or an altercation.
01:30:43.680 --> 01:30:47.439
How have you dealt with losses that you've incurred on your end?
01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:48.640
And I'm so grateful.
01:30:48.800 --> 01:30:52.319
Look, the beauty of a lot of these stories is the gains that come from the healing journey.
01:30:52.560 --> 01:30:57.199
You end up filling your cup with new things when you let go of some of the old things.
01:30:57.279 --> 01:31:09.439
But in that little interim period, it can be really scary to lose the environment you grew up in, lose some friends, have people turn their backs on you or not believe you, have parents that maybe you know aren't on the same page with you or siblings.
01:31:09.600 --> 01:31:11.439
How have you coped with all of that?
01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:13.359
Oh well, yeah.
01:31:13.520 --> 01:31:25.279
It's I I so I wrote like a little bit about this in my journal, and um, and I would keep it turning it into a book because even though it's so raw, it's it's me.
01:31:25.359 --> 01:31:34.720
I I said that basically I think my parents are only dealing with me because they don't want to look like an imperfect family.
01:31:35.039 --> 01:31:41.840
And I'm I can only imagine the people like I know RFK Jr.
01:31:42.000 --> 01:31:46.239
isn't perfect, but I really like him because he was like a heroin addict at like 15, 16.
01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:49.039
And I know a lot of people are like, oh, he's just a junky idiot.
01:31:49.199 --> 01:31:58.560
But I'm like, how could you imagine being a Kennedy living up to that status and being subjected to it as a child?
01:31:58.800 --> 01:32:01.199
You can't do anything imperfect.
01:32:01.439 --> 01:32:12.720
And yeah, like I, one of my best model friends in New York was a heroin addict, and I was there when she relapsed, but I was also there when she was working to get better, and I saw how much of a struggle it was.
01:32:12.800 --> 01:32:32.319
And someone like her, who she was doing like beauty pageants since she was a child, like I have to understand that first off, like a lot of I mean, modern society puts pressure on people's looks and appearances already, but women have that in a way that I don't think men will ever understand.
01:32:32.560 --> 01:32:38.239
And the fact that this person who I knew personally, like, yeah, I've met RFK Jr.
01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:44.880
and I was on his social media team, but I actually knew this woman and I got to know her really well, and I understood a lot.
01:32:45.039 --> 01:32:54.560
And what I understand from both situations is when that is all your worth, like your worth is the Kennedy last name, your worth is this beautiful image.
01:32:55.039 --> 01:32:58.960
You you can't please everybody, and you are going to mistakes, right?
01:32:59.039 --> 01:33:00.560
Mistakes are a part of life.
01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:15.039
And I, if I was in this situation, I don't know if I would have done heroin, but I definitely would have wanted to numb this pain, this emptiness that a lot of us have, and a lot of us feel it by just scrolling endlessly.
01:33:15.119 --> 01:33:17.039
But then what is that actually doing?
01:33:17.199 --> 01:33:22.000
You're, you know, you're not, you're not actually doing anything productive to yourself.
01:33:22.159 --> 01:33:35.600
Like these people that I've had a chance to meet, they were glimpses of what of not just what I was going through, but also what you could overcome.
01:33:35.920 --> 01:33:51.840
And I I I I don't want to put it that superficial of like my parents are only letting me stay here because they don't want to they don't want it to look like their family is not perfect.
01:33:52.079 --> 01:33:55.119
But really that's that's how I I look at it.
01:33:55.279 --> 01:34:01.439
Like I'm sure my parents have love for me, I have love for them, but really I think what's above it is their image.
01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:06.960
Like if they have to say Caleb, like if somebody asks them, oh, where's Caleb at?
01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:13.119
Like I have a friend in LA who I told about when I was live or when I was really leaving the cult.
01:34:13.359 --> 01:34:17.279
I I I told them and she was just like, Yeah, like be careful.
01:34:17.359 --> 01:34:26.399
And we've stayed in touch, and I know that I could if I needed a place to crash, I would probably just go up there because it would be out of the area.
01:34:26.640 --> 01:34:36.960
Um, and even she grew up in this area, so she knows how the web is constricted down here, not just within Calvary Chapel, but from her own experience.
01:34:37.199 --> 01:34:40.720
And like if I had to, I would.
01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:43.760
But I'm grateful that I don't.
01:34:44.079 --> 01:34:55.439
And I also understand that there are some people who don't have a friend's couch that they can crash on, who they are only staying in their cult because they literally have no other option.
01:34:55.600 --> 01:35:01.439
Or at least they they they either don't have an option or they don't think they have an out, right?
01:35:01.520 --> 01:35:03.199
Because I know it kind of goes both ways.
01:35:03.359 --> 01:35:15.760
Like there are programs for people to get readjusted, but a lot of times when that's only been your whole existence, like how can you, how can you even comprehend that there's a world outside of this cole?
01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:34.319
And that's really what people who are outside looking in, they they they're like, okay, you now have like, I don't know, sister wives and the whole like spin-offs of getting people out of those.
01:35:34.479 --> 01:35:45.840
Um, and even like Scientology and all Leo Reminis work, you know, like there's there's a lot around where people have heard of some type of the show andor situation that helps people get out.
01:35:45.920 --> 01:35:55.760
So there are resources, but when you're in the midst of it, you don't you don't think that there that anything else is possible because it's all you've ever known.
01:35:58.319 --> 01:35:59.199
Absolutely.
01:35:59.439 --> 01:36:11.760
And I think more people would defect from the cult environment that they're in if they had the tools to understand or just even the the conscious awareness of what's on the other side.
01:36:12.079 --> 01:36:28.319
When all you've ever known is just a controlled environment and you've always had access to people who will help you and people who, even if it's not in good faith, you know, a lot of times cults don't have the best interest in mind for the individual, it's the best interest in mind for the group, right?
01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:34.079
But that safety of having that, even if you know it's toxic, can just be so scary to leave.
01:36:34.159 --> 01:36:39.520
And I think a lot of people stay because they're so scared of just having to figure out life without that.
01:36:39.680 --> 01:36:40.479
You know, who am I?
01:36:40.560 --> 01:36:43.520
Like, like you've had to contend with, who am I outside of this?
01:36:43.680 --> 01:36:44.319
What am I?
01:36:44.479 --> 01:36:45.439
What am I passionate about?
01:36:45.520 --> 01:36:52.720
How, if I am passionate about something, what do I do with that idea if I don't have somebody to ask about it or to tell me what to do with it?
01:36:52.960 --> 01:37:12.560
And I think it's just very comforting just to see somebody like you on the other side of this, even if you're not where exactly where you want to be, just for people to see that there's a light on the other side of the tunnel, that you can figure things out, that everything's figure outable, and you can always figure out kind of your next step.
01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.000
There's options for things.
01:37:14.159 --> 01:37:17.920
It doesn't mean that that life just ends because you leave the environment.
01:37:18.079 --> 01:37:22.720
There's a million other, you know, billions of environments in the world that you can find instead.
01:37:22.880 --> 01:37:29.680
And I think that that's like a beautiful thing, but it can be really scary for somebody who's only known a control group.
01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:51.840
Yeah, and it's like we said, you're more likely to join another cult if you've already been in one because of what you're so used to, and that control feels like a comfort at first, but once you've completely lost yourself and you realize like, what am I doing this for?
01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:53.920
Like, it's is it for them?
01:37:54.640 --> 01:37:56.239
Is it for God?
01:37:56.560 --> 01:37:57.439
Is it for me?
01:37:57.600 --> 01:38:03.359
Like, you those are questions that people don't want to answer.
01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:16.880
And it takes as it takes courage and it takes strength for all these people to look within and be like, you know, I let myself live a life that was not me.
01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:27.359
And to pile on top of all of that, you have like, you know, Instagram, like where this is like your new personal resume in a way, right?
01:38:27.520 --> 01:38:32.239
So a lot of people are like, like, I don't blame them when they're like, but this is all I am.
01:38:32.399 --> 01:38:34.800
Like, I'm looking at my Instagram, this is all I am.
01:38:34.960 --> 01:38:36.720
But no, that's not what you are, right?
01:38:36.800 --> 01:38:40.079
Like we already know that these are usually highlights of people's lives.
01:38:40.399 --> 01:38:42.560
And it's it's it's more than that.
01:38:42.640 --> 01:38:45.840
Like, if the electricity were to go out, and you know, Instagram would be gone.
01:38:45.920 --> 01:38:46.800
Like, that's not you.
01:38:46.960 --> 01:38:51.119
You're who you are is is is here in in the physical.
01:38:51.199 --> 01:39:01.359
And even if we are spiritual beings experiencing a physical life, like that's what uh represents you.
01:39:01.520 --> 01:39:16.640
Like, are you going to be a Christian knees type of uh construct, or are you just going to be someone who's willing to uh understand other people's perspectives?
01:39:16.880 --> 01:39:24.960
Because when you start understanding other people's perspectives, it really this might sound cheesy, but it really puts your own life into perspective.
01:39:25.039 --> 01:39:26.640
And that's why I'm so willing now.
01:39:26.720 --> 01:39:33.760
I like I want to hear other people's stories, I want to hear what my religion always taught me was evil.
01:39:34.000 --> 01:39:36.960
I want to challenge myself that way.
01:39:37.199 --> 01:39:49.840
And even if it was just speaking with my parents recently, and when I said, like, like I've had to explain to them, trauma people think that trauma is a bad word, but there can be good types of trauma.
01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:56.800
Like you remember a like a really blissful memory because it was so traumatic on your on you, it impacted you.
01:39:57.039 --> 01:39:59.680
Like that's actually like like that's all trauma is.
01:39:59.760 --> 01:40:11.760
It's it was just so impactful, but they that we're we're obviously because of all kinds of stories and even our own personal experiences, we're usually going to experience trauma to something bad.
01:40:11.920 --> 01:40:13.359
And yes, that is trauma.
01:40:18.960 --> 01:40:21.920
But you can also look at it the other way.
01:40:22.079 --> 01:40:27.119
Like, what was something that you remember that made you so happy and that was traumatic on you?
01:40:27.279 --> 01:40:29.520
And the same goes for that word challenge.
01:40:29.680 --> 01:40:38.079
Like, I am challenging my parents to look beyond the script they just keep reading.
01:40:38.399 --> 01:40:56.880
And I have every good intention, but I understand if I say something like challenge, I I can't really think of another word to use at the moment, but that challenge, all they're going to hear is equivalent to that negative receptive understanding of of trauma.
01:40:57.039 --> 01:41:03.439
Like they, they, they, I don't think, like, I have so many thoughts going on.
01:41:03.600 --> 01:41:16.159
Like, not only does that show me how like stuck in their pigeonhole of the cult they are, but also that they're not willing to, because those are two different things, right?
01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:22.880
Like, you can be like I was stuck in that pigeonhole for a very long time, but I was willing, I was always willing.
01:41:23.199 --> 01:41:26.000
And they just don't have that willingness.
01:41:26.239 --> 01:41:34.239
So for anybody who's like still in the cult and maybe watching this, like if you have that willingness, like they probably do have that willingness, right?
01:41:34.319 --> 01:41:44.479
If they're watching, you know, if they're watching your channel, because you don't experience a channel like this without, I believe, like you can't experience a channel like this without going numb.
01:41:44.640 --> 01:41:56.560
Like it ha there has to be something in you that even if it's the curiosity from an outside perspective, there has to be that curiosity where you're like, you ended up on here because you know something's off.
01:41:56.720 --> 01:42:05.359
And even if it didn't directly happen to you, you know that there's something off in our in the way society likes to systemize people and categorize them.
01:42:05.600 --> 01:42:28.239
And so for the people who are, like, I'm I'm thinking of another example that's not even in the Calvary Chapel cult, but from all my experiences went like on red alert when I was so at the University of Arizona, I decided to take um, like I I had just quit the news and I was there in Tucson.
01:42:28.399 --> 01:42:37.840
So I applied to the University of Arizona and I started studying uh medical school courses because I thought, huh, these are courses I never took in uh Penn State, but who knows?
01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:39.840
I just kind of want to have them for right now.
01:42:40.000 --> 01:42:41.039
And it's a great opportunity.
01:42:41.119 --> 01:42:44.159
I get in-state tuition, it's right down the street.
01:42:44.479 --> 01:42:45.840
And it was great.
01:42:46.000 --> 01:42:47.840
I loved my first semester.
01:42:48.479 --> 01:42:57.439
And then I had the opportunity because I did so well in my biology class that I I was a pre a preceptor, like a like a learning assistant, right?
01:42:57.520 --> 01:43:03.439
Like there's us with the teacher aids, and we're, you know, we we proctored the exams and all that.
01:43:03.600 --> 01:43:06.720
And if kids have questions, we have to know the material.
01:43:06.800 --> 01:43:08.640
And I and I loved it, it was great.
01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:14.479
But the more I got into that and I started taking lab courses, I realized, you know what?
01:43:14.880 --> 01:43:27.520
Science is a cult because and and I don't want to go around calling everything a cult, but the way their mentality was, it like like I understood it better.
01:43:27.760 --> 01:43:33.840
And I obviously had like 10 years on most students there because they're all in their early 20s or late teens.
01:43:34.159 --> 01:43:36.560
But like a couple of examples.
01:43:36.720 --> 01:43:49.680
So I remember for our lab write-up, one of them in the biology course, um, the biology lab, we had to do like a like a cancer type of presentation.
01:43:50.000 --> 01:44:03.439
And I saw, because I'm great with numbers, I saw how you could literally just use certain numbers and disregard other ones in order to prove your point.
01:44:03.920 --> 01:44:10.640
And I had kind of always suspected that that's sometimes how research papers are done.
01:44:10.960 --> 01:44:31.199
And like, as much as I want to attribute, if you've heard of that like Japanese water study, how they put sounds and certain sounds created certain shapes, and like certain bad sounds created bad shapes, like that was real, but they also like disregarded they they basically picked and chose ones that would fit their narrative.
01:44:31.520 --> 01:44:36.800
And I started to see that even at the entry level.
01:44:36.880 --> 01:44:43.680
And then once I became a preceptor, I was like, oh, now I'm getting a bit more into this sciencey cole.
01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:54.159
And I don't like that you can just manipulate numbers to fit your narrative, because that's to me, that's manipulating Bible verses to fit your narrative, right?
01:44:54.319 --> 01:45:02.960
It's it's it's and and very much if you look at what the science industry is, it's like, oh, you didn't study this, we're not gonna listen to you, right?
01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:06.319
That's even what kind of the mentality of being in a in the medical field.
01:45:06.399 --> 01:45:12.960
That's why they all dressed in their scrubs or their coats, and that's literally what you do in the science industry, right?
01:45:13.039 --> 01:45:23.760
Like, it's like there's you and there's us, and you don't belong because either you don't have your PhD or you didn't get your master's, or you didn't you didn't study this.
01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:27.680
And I love, again, I've always loved challenging myself.
01:45:27.920 --> 01:45:39.359
I I was grateful that I could prove to myself the mathematic capabilities I was starting to endure and all of the science because I think it's great.
01:45:39.680 --> 01:45:50.079
But part of what made me leave after that year at the U of A was realizing, oh, like the same tactics that I saw from some of these Calvary Chapel people.
01:45:50.159 --> 01:45:56.560
I'm now seeing from my professor, where she's like, Yeah, and if you discover something, it's credited all to you.
01:45:56.800 --> 01:46:04.720
And it was just like I had to like there are multiple ways to take that.
01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:06.800
Like she was encouraging me.
01:46:07.359 --> 01:46:14.479
She saw that was the one that asked me to be a preceptor, so she saw that I had this willingness, this enthusiasm.
01:46:15.039 --> 01:46:51.439
But I also saw like, oh, she's kind of like I felt like she was wrangling me in and using that, like like because I had told her that I had come from the media industry, and um I I went to her office hours a lot and during the first semester, and so getting to know her now the second semester, um I saw the I hope this is respectful saying this, but I saw the reason why she was there.
01:46:51.680 --> 01:47:05.359
Like I saw that and this has been a gift, like I usually have been able to read people, and especially after a while, that's when I can, you know, that that's either God's discernment or that is God's discernment plus everything I've experienced.
01:47:05.600 --> 01:47:17.600
But I saw the little girl in her who was probably a nerd and is now able to validate herself with this title, doctor, et cetera, et cetera.
01:47:17.920 --> 01:47:24.079
And it doesn't, all of these experiences don't make me hate those people.
01:47:24.479 --> 01:47:39.840
I just like like I even still pray for people from the church, and I, you know, I wish well on that professor, but I realized I'm like, oh, it really is true when people say, I don't know if you've heard this, but that academia is like a pseudo-life.
01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:53.760
Like a lot of kids who were not a lot of kids who couldn't make that transition after school, they end up going back and being a teacher because they feel validated in that environment.
01:47:54.000 --> 01:48:00.319
Or um, and obviously that's not for everybody, but like it makes sense in the same way.
01:48:00.399 --> 01:48:03.760
Like, I mean, my dad was a cop, and so were most of his brothers.
01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:10.079
And even the sister, their younger sister works in um like out of prison.
01:48:10.239 --> 01:48:17.119
So, like for me, I read all that as like, okay, they grew up with their alcoholic father, he never let them have control.
01:48:17.279 --> 01:48:19.600
So now they crave to be in control.
01:48:19.840 --> 01:48:25.600
And it wasn't just in my household, it obviously manifested through their uh officer law enforcement work.
01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:29.920
And so, like, I've I I look at these things and it helps me understand.
01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:38.239
And I would start to say some of those stuff in my 20s, but I think my parents were like, like, at first, they're like, What's wrong with you?
01:48:38.319 --> 01:48:39.199
Why are you saying these things?
01:48:39.359 --> 01:48:49.359
Like, I remember as soon as I came back from college, and then again from New York, they're like, You need a they basically told me, like, you need to, you need to step off of your pedestal.
01:48:49.439 --> 01:48:52.239
And I wasn't trying to be above them.
01:48:52.319 --> 01:49:16.079
I was just, I had a lot of things to share, and all they could share was whatever Jesus said in the Bible, which I also knew, or like little gossip things, like even like a like I there have been a lot of times that this has happened, but like recently my mom straight up said she's like, I don't want to gossip.
01:49:16.159 --> 01:49:20.720
We were having lunch and she was like, I don't want to gossip, but so-and-so at the church has Alzheimer's.
01:49:20.960 --> 01:49:22.800
And and then like she went on and on.
01:49:22.880 --> 01:49:25.600
And I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna correct her.
01:49:25.680 --> 01:49:32.560
I'm not gonna try to like, you know, be the big parent right now, but she easily could have said, Hey, do you remember that person from church?
01:49:32.720 --> 01:49:34.960
Can you pray for them because they're not doing well?
01:49:35.119 --> 01:49:36.319
You know, period.
01:49:37.680 --> 01:49:43.279
But instead, she went on and was saying everything else and doing and everything and everything.
01:49:43.359 --> 01:49:48.560
And that's why I'm like, those prayer chains really were just gossip circles described.
01:49:48.720 --> 01:49:52.079
Like if somebody actually has an issue, just be like, Hey, can you pray for this person?
01:49:52.399 --> 01:49:53.199
Thanks.
01:49:55.840 --> 01:49:57.199
Right, exactly.
01:49:57.439 --> 01:49:59.760
And so you see how these patterns.
01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:05.600
Patterns that are instilled in these cult environments, they transfer over in real life.
01:50:05.680 --> 01:50:09.520
And the person, like your mom, probably wasn't really even conscious that she was repeating it.
01:50:09.600 --> 01:50:14.239
It was just, it's become so natural to her at this point from being in that environment for so long.
01:50:14.479 --> 01:50:18.560
That to her, that's just that's like a normal conversation how you talk about it.
01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:19.680
There's not a different way.
01:50:19.840 --> 01:50:37.039
Where for you, getting out of that, you're like, gosh, there's so many other ways we can address how we talk about people and like ways that are healthier and like less toxic and less draining in a sense, that we can help people who are suffering and not have it be turned into some gossipy conversation.
01:50:37.359 --> 01:50:41.840
But you can just see how these patterns they repeat them so much.
01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:46.479
Kathy O'Brien always says, you know, repetition is the basis of mind control, and it really is.
01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:49.279
You know, the more you repeat something, the more.
01:50:49.439 --> 01:50:53.039
And it can also be the opposite, you know, it's a way to break mind control too.
01:50:53.119 --> 01:51:08.640
If you repeat a healthy habit or something better, like repetition is just a way that you can create a habit, but you can see how toxicity when it's constantly reinforced year after year, day after day that you're there, it infiltrates the person's entire life.
01:51:08.720 --> 01:51:20.560
They don't even realize that they're being toxic at that point, you know, which is actually really sad because these are people that you know could have ended up living a life outside of this, like how you've discovered it.
01:51:20.640 --> 01:51:22.720
And a lot of them are are never gonna break out of it.
01:51:22.880 --> 01:51:39.840
They're always gonna be in that environment, they're never gonna be able to use their ideas and exercise their free will how they want in the world, it's gonna constantly be reinforced through the programming that this is how you talk about things, this is how you do things, this is where your talents and skills are allowed to exist, like in this bubble.
01:51:40.000 --> 01:51:41.520
You know, so it is it's really sad.
01:51:41.600 --> 01:51:53.039
And that's why, like as much as these family environments and these leaders in these cults, whether it's at a church or otherwise, you know, on one hand, yes, it's bad.
01:51:53.199 --> 01:52:05.920
These patterns and the programming that they've all allowed themselves to perpetuate and to continue in their own lives, it's bad, like it's toxic, you know, and a lot of the behaviors are bad, like they're not good things.
01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:11.039
But a lot of these people were and could have been, you know, very good people.
01:52:11.199 --> 01:52:15.520
And they were, you know, sadly just like infected with this programming.
01:52:15.760 --> 01:52:23.600
And so it's it's kind of like this double-edged sword where like you have so much compassion and sadness for what's happening and like just want it to stop.
01:52:23.680 --> 01:52:40.479
And that's why what you're doing is so important because every seed planted helps bring somebody else forward who, even if they don't leave in the moment that they hear your testimony or hear you, even your parents, you know, who aren't able to face it, they can't ever say that they didn't hear it.
01:52:40.560 --> 01:52:42.800
And it's always going to be lingering in the back of their mind, you know.
01:52:42.880 --> 01:52:51.119
And I pray one day that they'll do what you did and see that it's toxic and like want to confront it and like heal as a family from it.
01:52:51.439 --> 01:52:53.520
But a lot of people really struggle to do that.
01:52:53.600 --> 01:53:01.039
It's like this identity crisis, you know, it's everything that they know, every person that they know, so many memories and the community there.
01:53:01.279 --> 01:53:12.319
Churches are like such a great environment to lay down a cult foundation and for toxic leaders to come in and prey on vulnerable people because, you know, a lot of people go to church.
01:53:12.399 --> 01:53:17.039
How we've talked about looking for help or a solution or comfort or guidance.
01:53:17.199 --> 01:53:23.279
And it's it's a place that people go for safety, and it's really sad that wolves in sheep's clothing are there, you know.
01:53:23.439 --> 01:53:30.239
But on the same token, we need to have just a different perspective on how we look at people in these cults.
01:53:30.319 --> 01:53:32.720
Like, my wish is that everybody leaves.
01:53:32.880 --> 01:53:37.520
You know, I don't want to see anything bad happening to all these people, even if what they've done is bad.
01:53:37.760 --> 01:53:39.920
Some people just are irredeemable, you know.
01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:48.640
When I listen to some of my podcast guests and just some of the evil, I really do think some people are just completely not redeemable and like they need to be dealt with a different way.
01:53:48.720 --> 01:53:54.000
But like, God, if your whole family could face all of this together, it would just be amazing.
01:53:54.159 --> 01:53:59.359
And, you know, I wish that for every family that has gone through something like this that is struggling to face it.
01:53:59.600 --> 01:54:01.680
You're just really great for what you've done, Caleb.
01:54:01.840 --> 01:54:04.399
And, you know, your perspectives are so enlightening.
01:54:04.560 --> 01:54:05.920
You're such an intelligent person.
01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:13.840
I'm really grateful that you're creating all of this stuff and you're able to have the discernment and like you're still able to heal through all of it and still pursue your dreams.
01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:15.119
It's amazing.
01:54:15.520 --> 01:54:16.079
Thanks.
01:54:16.319 --> 01:54:26.960
It's it's hard because I've had like last year when I was clearly making a scene online about what I was doing and speaking out against the church.
01:54:27.279 --> 01:54:34.000
One of the a girl who I went to school with and even graduated with, um, her dad was in the Masons.
01:54:34.560 --> 01:54:38.800
And I knew that my dad knew him.
01:54:39.520 --> 01:54:41.760
And I remember she reached out.
01:54:42.000 --> 01:54:46.800
She, I think she actually called me and she was like, Hey, are you are are you okay?
01:54:46.880 --> 01:54:47.840
Is everything okay?
01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:51.359
I just I saw what you've been posting and I wanted to ask.
01:54:51.680 --> 01:55:03.039
And that actually just made me block her because I was like, Okay, um, I know that your dad's in the Masonic group with me, um with my dad.
01:55:03.199 --> 01:55:08.319
Um, like I went to her, they have Job's daughters, so she was raised in that actually.
01:55:08.479 --> 01:55:17.039
Like, I don't know if you're familiar with with what Job's Daughters is, but it's like their um their program for the young woman, basically.
01:55:17.199 --> 01:55:23.760
So like I know how involved she was, and I know that she had a different form of control system.
01:55:23.920 --> 01:55:29.039
She didn't go to my church, but she must have had her own, you know, control system that she was dealing with.
01:55:29.199 --> 01:55:42.159
And so when she reached out to me for that, like we had already had um a phone call within maybe like the prior month or two, just catching up because we hadn't spoken in years.
01:55:42.399 --> 01:55:48.159
But then when I saw that call, I was like, ugh, like, and this is part of the struggle, right?
01:55:48.239 --> 01:55:53.199
Like, we all need a friend or two, and it's not healthy to just cut everybody off.
01:55:53.359 --> 01:56:00.319
But I was like, in this moment, I need to because I haven't talked to you in years.
01:56:00.800 --> 01:56:05.439
Why am I now someone that you want to call?
01:56:05.680 --> 01:56:09.840
And um, even if it's being said as like, are you okay?
01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:14.319
Like, I don't know your intentions, pretty much.
01:56:14.640 --> 01:56:19.119
And I would rather just, you know, it wasn't like she was my best friend.
01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:29.760
Like, I clearly hadn't talked to her in years, but I don't need this relationship to be anything else because I don't know if I can trust you.
01:56:29.920 --> 01:56:39.119
I don't know if you're gonna do what this other person did to me, where I was talking to them about Calvary Chapel being a cult, and they just all, you know, triangulated and turned it against me.
01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:42.239
I'm like, I don't need, I don't need to take that chance.
01:56:42.399 --> 01:56:44.720
Like, I'm good on my own.
01:56:44.960 --> 01:56:47.680
And that's what that's probably the hardest thing.
01:56:47.760 --> 01:56:50.239
And I want to remind other people to do the same.
01:56:50.479 --> 01:56:59.520
Like, like maybe have like one of those like chain link fences up where you can like see through it, but yeah, it's kind of protecting you.
01:56:59.600 --> 01:57:07.600
Like, or how I said earlier, have like hedge bushes where there's something separating us, but I'm willing to, you know, be vulnerable a bit.
01:57:07.760 --> 01:57:17.520
Like, I don't blame people at all when they completely cut off their vulnerability, leaving a cult because you you were fully taken advantage of.
01:57:17.680 --> 01:57:21.039
That's how all these people were, they're fully taken advantage of.
01:57:21.359 --> 01:57:28.800
And it it's human to want to be understood as well, but you have to protect yourself.
01:57:28.960 --> 01:57:35.439
If you don't protect yourself, you I mean, it's it's like a an animal that hears something in the woods.
01:57:35.600 --> 01:57:48.640
It could just be a little squirrel, you know, roaming for nuts, or it could be a tiger or bear ready to pounce, and you don't know but what is best to do, right?
01:57:48.800 --> 01:57:50.079
Do you want to fight or flight?
01:57:50.159 --> 01:57:51.279
And I don't want to fight.
01:57:51.439 --> 01:57:53.760
Like, I don't want to get into these extended arguments.
01:57:53.920 --> 01:57:57.600
I don't want to try going back and forth, back and forth.
01:57:57.840 --> 01:57:59.199
I I'm just gonna leave.
01:57:59.279 --> 01:58:00.399
I'm gonna flight.
01:58:00.720 --> 01:58:14.720
And people should not feel bad, nor should they blame themselves for being in that type of mindset now where you're like, okay, I don't know, I don't know, so I'm just gonna leave.
01:58:14.880 --> 01:58:29.520
Like, like there is there has to be a balance to it, of course, but if anything, I think that's healthy because if you weren't feeling that way, you probably would just fully dive in and you don't know these people's intentions.
01:58:29.760 --> 01:58:40.319
And I would say that as long as you have, like Carl Jung called it, meaningful coincidences, like, you know, not just all these random things, but stuff that actually means.
01:58:40.399 --> 01:58:47.760
So, like with that girl, her dad was a Mason, my dad's still involved with that, even if he doesn't want to talk about it.
01:58:48.000 --> 01:58:50.319
Like, there that's that's kind of what it was.
01:58:50.479 --> 01:58:57.439
It was like a bunch of old men, and that's usually the people with within power in almost any system, it's usually the elders.
01:58:57.760 --> 01:59:01.520
So, like that's enough evidence for me.
01:59:01.760 --> 01:59:05.199
You know, if she was really my friend, we would have stayed in touch all these years.
01:59:05.359 --> 01:59:09.199
Like, you know, get write yourself a list, even if it's just a mental list.
01:59:09.279 --> 01:59:10.319
Like, write yourself a list.
01:59:10.399 --> 01:59:16.159
And if there are like three or more things, then just keep that as like, okay, that's that's my reason.
01:59:16.239 --> 01:59:39.359
And that's that's kind of how I've been handling all this after leaving, because you do kind of have to reevaluate your entire existence, and it's a lot easier to get sucked up into a relationship and not have to self-reflect and or you know, get lost in a different type of cult.
01:59:39.439 --> 01:59:44.960
And and also, unfortunately, the society doesn't really embrace debt.
01:59:45.439 --> 01:59:48.319
We live in a very superficial society.
01:59:48.560 --> 01:59:57.520
And for people who want to express and want to have more than, like in my case, just a random Christianese, like, oh, how are you doing?
01:59:57.680 --> 01:59:59.279
God's God's taking care of me.
01:59:59.439 --> 02:00:00.399
Oh, God bless.
02:00:00.479 --> 02:00:01.359
You're so welcome.
02:00:01.600 --> 02:00:08.319
You know, like that as like I used to think that that was so meaningful, but now I realize like it was so superficial.
02:00:08.560 --> 02:00:17.199
Like it's it's kind of like how some Europeans have told me when they came to America and someone asked them, like, oh, how are you?
02:00:17.439 --> 02:00:19.279
They don't actually want to know how you are.
02:00:19.439 --> 02:00:21.439
They just, you know, that's just a greeting.
02:00:21.760 --> 02:00:24.239
And, you know, they have a completely different culture.
02:00:24.479 --> 02:00:30.479
So to come here and think like, oh, every American's so like, you know, upbeat and so giddy and happy.
02:00:30.640 --> 02:00:34.239
And it's like, no, a lot of people are just pretending to be that way.
02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:45.600
And once you see past the facade, and like like another good trick, right, is like noticing when people smile just like like that, and like this doesn't move at all.
02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:56.399
It's like, okay, well, that's you're hiding something within, or when people are just too like like that's you know, that's a different type of you're also hiding something.
02:00:56.560 --> 02:01:28.800
Um, and I don't ever need to know what those something are, but those are tricks that like I think that are valuable and people underestimate in recognizing authenticity in a person, and you have to be willing to it's hard because you feel like everybody from the cult has hurt you, but you have to be willing to be hurt in order to establish something and to in order to establish depth with the relationship, right?
02:01:28.880 --> 02:01:32.720
Whether it's platonic, romantic, whatever it is, you have to be willing.
02:01:33.600 --> 02:01:34.720
Thank you for sharing that.
02:01:34.880 --> 02:01:38.079
That was a very, very deep thought, and I'm really grateful for that.
02:01:38.159 --> 02:01:41.199
And I think a lot of people listening to you will feel very validated.
02:01:41.359 --> 02:01:45.760
We do live in like such this superficial world from the news to social media.
02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:47.760
I mean, you named so many different ways.
02:01:48.000 --> 02:01:57.119
And even going to work, you know, the the science industry and the you know, medical industry, just how like sterile and like clothes that people wear.
02:01:57.199 --> 02:02:01.199
There's just so many ways that like we dress up and put a mask on every day.
02:02:01.439 --> 02:02:10.640
And it is scary to be authentic, but there's something like just so refreshing about like not giving a shit, you know, and just like being who you are regardless of it and like not caring.
02:02:10.880 --> 02:02:18.720
And it takes a lot of courage to do, but I think like once you're on the other side of that, which I can tell that you are, you know, it took me a long time to get there too.
02:02:18.800 --> 02:02:22.239
And it still is something I struggle with doing all the time.
02:02:22.479 --> 02:02:28.479
But there's this like feeling inside when you're not that way, it becomes toxic.
02:02:28.640 --> 02:02:40.319
Like instead of it being the opposite where you're scared of yourself, when you feel yourself like trying to blend in or trying to be superficial, then it starts to feel like yucky, you know, and I think that's like a healthy place to get to.
02:02:40.560 --> 02:02:50.319
But it can take a lot of courage to do that, especially when you're coming from a high control environment where everything that you've done has been programmed to you and set out and laid out.
02:02:50.479 --> 02:02:59.039
And like you said, you know, just even the the religious banter and things like that of expectations and how somebody's supposed to be or look or how they're supposed to talk.
02:02:59.279 --> 02:03:10.880
And it's just it's it's there's a lot of layers to break through with that, you know, but it's really incredible seeing people like you doing it and being able to give us the tools to follow in your footsteps.
02:03:11.039 --> 02:03:12.479
And it's just so very needed.
02:03:12.560 --> 02:03:23.279
And I know that a lot of survivors right now are struggling with those very things and trying to find their place in the world after making the courageous decision and step to leave the environment that was so toxic to them.
02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:25.680
And so I just I really thank you with all my heart.
02:03:25.840 --> 02:03:30.640
Your insights are like really, really deep and insightful.
02:03:30.800 --> 02:03:37.119
And I know like every time I've recorded with you, I've thought about our conversations so long after we stopped recording.
02:03:37.199 --> 02:03:45.920
And like I've I've looked forward to like going back through and editing because these episodes you can really listen to multiple times and just receive so much information.
02:03:46.000 --> 02:03:52.079
And it's like, gosh, the fact that you learned all of this through your experiences is just it's mind-blowing.
02:03:52.560 --> 02:04:10.079
I just think that like if I had to give another game plan for people who either are thinking about leaving a cult that they're in or um are like just left like journaling.
02:04:10.159 --> 02:04:19.439
We already talked about journaling, but really it's because once you put it down pen to paper, you it's not just the thought anymore.
02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:21.520
It's it's the reality.
02:04:21.760 --> 02:04:27.920
And especially when it's like, you know, you can have your thoughts that nobody will ever read, and that's fine, right?
02:04:28.000 --> 02:04:30.319
Like, you don't, not everything has to be a book.
02:04:30.479 --> 02:04:34.239
Um, if you're comfortable doing that and sharing it, I think we all should, right?
02:04:34.560 --> 02:04:41.920
But have the intention just starting out, because this was at least my intention, was just I'm just gonna journal, you know, and nobody needs to read this.
02:04:42.000 --> 02:04:43.520
It's just my dream journal.
02:04:43.680 --> 02:04:51.199
And then I ended up as I read it, like I did share one section with my mother, and um she was like, Wow, your writing's really good.
02:04:51.359 --> 02:05:00.079
And I think because I've been just so focused on images and moving media, um I think people kind of forgot how well I wrote.
02:05:00.159 --> 02:05:01.680
And I'm not trying to fluff myself up.
02:05:01.760 --> 02:05:16.640
I just remember like my brother, when he was um, I was writing my college essays, and my I asked my brother to read them and you know, edit whatever he thought.
02:05:16.960 --> 02:05:21.039
And he went on Facebook, and this surprised me actually.
02:05:21.199 --> 02:05:25.680
Like he went on Facebook and he was like, Oh, my brother's gonna grow up to be a writer.
02:05:25.920 --> 02:05:45.439
And um, like I just finished reading his college essays, and I and I and I kept that in mind, but again, I kind of forgot that because I've been working with so many other mediums and in news too, you it's just very straightforward, even if it is manipulated, it's very blunt, very very like usually brief sentences.
02:05:45.760 --> 02:05:51.920
And so I kind of forgot how I like to write, just uh, you know, just for fun.
02:05:52.399 --> 02:05:57.119
And that in itself is so healing.
02:05:57.199 --> 02:06:19.760
So if people can have that type of outlet, even if they hate writing, just do it, even if it's just a couple sentences, do it, because it is going to bring up other thoughts and it's gonna remind you of things that you never even talked about with anyone, or or you kind of like repressed in your mind, we're like, no, that's not actually how it happened.
02:06:19.840 --> 02:06:26.880
But as you talk about it, you're and especially writing it, you're like, oh wow, things were kind of screwed up in my household.
02:06:26.960 --> 02:06:38.720
Like, you know, there's like so much that I could talk about that I think even if some people might disconnect it from the church, it's it was a side effect of being in that cult.
02:06:38.800 --> 02:06:52.960
And I think that that's what other people will realize too, is like, yeah, the cult was a huge problem, but everything else that you thought were problems outside of it were most likely a side effect of being in that cult.
02:06:53.119 --> 02:07:03.680
Because like that, that defensiveness that I always had, it's like it took a lot of self-reflection to realize, wow, that's the kind of like that's that's because I was that's how I was trained to be.
02:07:03.840 --> 02:07:09.359
I was trained that everybody is not us because we have the true word of God.
02:07:09.680 --> 02:07:25.439
And it's just, you know, understanding that is going to be so healing for people because you you you don't see how connected a web is until you start kind of tracking it.
02:07:25.840 --> 02:07:26.479
Yes.
02:07:26.880 --> 02:07:27.760
Absolutely.
02:07:27.920 --> 02:07:33.119
And that's such good advice, too, about just being creative, whether that's writing or some other way.
02:07:33.199 --> 02:07:41.600
And I think writing, especially, because how I was saying earlier, it just it expresses emotions and it connects the brain differently than talking about it.
02:07:41.840 --> 02:07:48.479
It's a lot less work on your nervous system to pick up a pen and write something than it is to talk about it.
02:07:48.560 --> 02:07:53.119
You know, it's it's difficult and like very emotional to talk, but writing, it's a little bit less emotional too.
02:07:53.199 --> 02:07:54.880
It's a little bit easier to process things.
02:07:55.119 --> 02:08:06.479
But I think if there's if there's, I mean, there's so many things that I learned from survivors, but regarding like creativity and art, one thing I've learned through so many testimonies is the importance of just being creative.
02:08:06.640 --> 02:08:16.560
I think even in school, it's beat into us that you don't pursue art, writing, painting, whatever the creative outlet is, music, unless you're good at it.
02:08:16.640 --> 02:08:19.520
We're gonna reward you and you're allowed to be in a class if you're good at it.
02:08:19.600 --> 02:08:21.840
But if you're not good at it, you shouldn't take the class.
02:08:21.920 --> 02:08:23.520
It's it might be like a hobby.
02:08:24.079 --> 02:08:28.479
And so we don't take our classes as electives if we're not good at drawing or painting.
02:08:28.560 --> 02:08:31.760
We don't go into band if we suck at music.
02:08:32.000 --> 02:08:38.479
You know, when these things should be fun, they should be done for fun, not for performance, not for a performative action.
02:08:38.720 --> 02:08:41.760
It's healing to be creative, it's it's expression.
02:08:41.920 --> 02:08:46.479
A child plays, sings, dances, plays around, uses their imagination.
02:08:46.560 --> 02:08:53.119
They're not worried about if people think their voice is good or if their sand castles, like a work of art.
02:08:53.359 --> 02:08:54.239
They just want to play.
02:08:54.319 --> 02:08:55.520
It's like expressive for them.
02:08:55.600 --> 02:08:59.279
It's it's a way to get their energy out and for them to like use their imagination.
02:08:59.520 --> 02:09:03.840
And I think that's something that we forget about as we grow up.
02:09:04.000 --> 02:09:06.399
We think that we can only do those things if we're good at them.
02:09:06.560 --> 02:09:18.560
And I think there's a lot to be learned from you and others who are sharing ways that we can do art, and it doesn't have to be shown to anybody, or it can, but we should be being creative as an outlet.
02:09:18.640 --> 02:09:26.640
It's super therapeutic and healing, and there's a reason why children just do it naturally, you know, and and there's a reason why in school they have to stop us.
02:09:26.800 --> 02:09:41.600
Like if they didn't, we would keep being creative and we would keep playing and keep being, you know, writers and uh using our imagination and you know, doing all the things that we did as kids just more refined, but they've beat it into us that we can only be creative if we're good at it.
02:09:41.760 --> 02:09:48.960
And I think the more and more that we all look internally at ourselves, like we're all really good at being creative.
02:09:49.119 --> 02:09:52.159
We just haven't had enough practice with doing it.
02:09:52.239 --> 02:09:56.880
And I think journal is a really good way to like practice writing that's like low pressure.
02:09:57.119 --> 02:10:04.000
And I think like when it's genuine and when it's your own thoughts and when you're not trying to perform, that's like when real creativity comes.
02:10:04.079 --> 02:10:09.520
And like that's when like the genius pours out when we're not trying to impress people, we're just like being ourselves.
02:10:09.680 --> 02:10:12.079
And luckily, like we have so many tools these days too.
02:10:12.159 --> 02:10:18.399
If we are writing something and we're like, gosh, like I haven't written in so long, I don't know if I'm if I am really good at it.
02:10:18.560 --> 02:10:24.640
Like we have AI, we have all kinds of tools that we can like that can help us now, which is really cool.
02:10:24.720 --> 02:10:31.039
And a lot of them are like, you know, really affordable if we wanted to refine it or just get some advice, you know.
02:10:31.199 --> 02:10:35.199
So I think like there's just a lot more ways now that we have to be creative.
02:10:35.359 --> 02:10:41.359
And I I really love that you're tapping into that and like helping helping encourage other people to do the same.
02:10:41.760 --> 02:10:48.479
Yeah, I think everybody, regardless of whether they've been in a cult or not, needs to create more than they consume.
02:10:48.720 --> 02:10:48.880
Yeah.
02:10:49.199 --> 02:10:50.640
And especially, right?
02:10:50.880 --> 02:11:10.159
And especially if you are in a similar situation to me, you're leaving, you you absolutely need to do that because it's so easy to get lost in a TikTok algorithm or you know, whatever your vice is, it's so much easier to do that.
02:11:10.239 --> 02:11:21.760
But it actually not only does it take work, but the healing is what makes it worth it when you start doing this and you start actually understanding what your thoughts have been trying to tell you this whole time.
02:11:21.920 --> 02:11:37.199
Like you can see it as what like it this is gonna sound like you know, the glass is half full or half empty, but like you can see all of that as okay, I was completely taken advantage of.
02:11:37.439 --> 02:11:49.119
My life has my life is ruined now because of it, or you can see it as, wow, now I can recognize those tactics in other things.
02:11:49.279 --> 02:11:57.680
And I think that that's what distinguishes people who do get sucked back into a cult or who end up just trying to numb themselves in a different way.
02:11:57.920 --> 02:12:16.319
And if people, even if they're not journaling, maybe they're painting or whatever form that they're they're expressing through and uh trying out it needs to be from a place where you're not forcing it.
02:12:16.560 --> 02:12:31.439
You're like the only reason I'm now starting this YouTube series is because I feel like I'm in a place where I actually can like when I was working for the news I took a three month hiatus and it was because like my seizures were getting so hyped up.
02:12:31.600 --> 02:12:39.520
Like I was just my seizure tolerance was super low meaning that I could I I could feel myself like the lights start to look kind of different.
02:12:39.920 --> 02:12:45.039
I could just feel my body was not where it needed to be and I was sacrificing myself for this.
02:12:45.119 --> 02:12:50.399
So I was like you know what there's a disability kind of three month policy I can take.
02:12:50.560 --> 02:13:19.920
And when I did that I deactivated my Instagram and I basically just I started making little videos that were like for YouTube that were just kind of like something I I like I went hiking so I was like let me make a video on the nude hiking trails like you know this is kind of interesting or like hey my friend's helping me fix uh a Game Boy cartridge let me make a video on that like it wasn't so much that I wanted to have a YouTube channel going.
02:13:20.000 --> 02:13:31.680
It was just that I wanted to use my creative technical skills to just make something that was something you know that wasn't the work I was being demanded of.
02:13:31.920 --> 02:13:47.680
And when you when you find that you're it's it's like a piece of you you never even reached into and I know that like like I've said plenty I I've had all these skills but I was never actually telling my own story.
02:13:47.920 --> 02:13:51.680
And even you know not no one's life is ever going to be perfect.
02:13:51.840 --> 02:14:16.800
So like don't expect that either but even in this situation I can do a YouTube series with the with the camera that I have the the iPhone and the iPad like I have both if somebody doesn't have both then you know just download cap cut on their iPhone or their Android right like there are all these different ways that people can do something.
02:14:16.960 --> 02:14:32.479
And even if it's just a video around their neighborhood whatever it is we we need to start putting that out there because you may not immediately feel feel like you can put your own opinion or your own story out but you'll get there by taking those baby steps.
02:14:32.560 --> 02:15:00.239
And this is coming from someone who like yeah I did musical theater but it was it was whether it was like programming me in a way because I did the whole Alice in Wonderland through the looking glass like Wizard of Oz um like Beauty and the Beast Cinderella I did like all those and it's crazy because you hear like a lot of um MKUltra victims say like that's what they were like programmed with.
02:15:00.479 --> 02:15:12.319
And so even though it wasn't my church necessarily putting me in those it was the community and so I can look at that as like obviously it could just be coincidental.
02:15:12.560 --> 02:15:23.760
Regardless it instills these kind of characters in your mind and it keeps the narrative of all that stuff going so that you think that that's like what life needs to be.
02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:42.960
And even though I understood that it was a musical or a play that we were doing it's and and I loved that it was creative I'm now able to look back and this is what people do whether it's through journaling or making their own content like they will start to look back and think of things so differently.
02:15:43.199 --> 02:16:00.000
And if if you can't look back you need to realize like what's blocking you why why won't your brain let you look back because I couldn't look back until like my early 20s it was when I started admitting things that had happened to me that I had repressed for so long.
02:16:00.239 --> 02:16:15.840
And if it took me like 10 years to get here like that's that's a whole decade right like people can do a lot in that they can either get more lost or they can take baby steps out of the situation that they're currently in.
02:16:17.680 --> 02:16:20.319
And thank God that you chose the latter.
02:16:20.479 --> 02:16:24.960
I'm really excited for everything that you're creating and just what an inspiration you are Caleb.
02:16:25.039 --> 02:17:02.399
I just can't speak highly enough about you and I'm just you know the more I learn about you the more impressed I am with everything that you've overcame and you give me so much hope and I hope other people feel the same watching you of what's possible, you know, what's possible on the other side of all of this tragedy that so many people face and have to defect from or escape or heal from you know there's a lot of suffering in the world and it's gonna be people like you that help restore the broken hearts and the wounds that so many have have occurred, you know, and it's really uh it's amazing that we get to listen to you.
02:17:02.479 --> 02:17:06.079
You're a miracle and I'm excited that you're creating more content.
02:17:06.319 --> 02:17:13.040
I'm glad that you take breaks whenever you need I think that's another lesson that survivors need to not put so much pressure on themselves.
02:17:13.200 --> 02:17:21.440
It's okay to take breaks a lot of people that are speaking out do whenever they're feeling too overwhelmed it's okay to step back and take a little hiatus and then get back into it.
02:17:21.760 --> 02:17:40.559
You know creativity isn't 24 hours a day all the time sometimes it's it's here and there and sometimes it can be 24 hours a day but regardless it's okay regardless of where you're at and you know effort is effort and even if that's just one inch every day you're still one inch further than you were whenever you were in the toxic situation that you were in.
02:17:40.719 --> 02:18:02.879
So we just have a lot to learn from you Caleb and um you did mention social media do you want to share where people can connect with you and where your YouTube videos are going to be that you're posting now yeah so I like like you'll be linking them thank you for that and um the handle that I'm just trying to get used for all social media.
02:18:03.040 --> 02:18:28.559
Oh thank you um yeah those are some silly photos or videos that I've put up or if you go to posts actually can you go to posts I recently put one up it was like my first one um I I I made I made this with AI it has Trump I don't know if you've seen that photo of Trump where he's lounging on a bed and it's from like the 80s and then I imposed it with uh Ghlaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein.
02:18:28.719 --> 02:18:36.799
Oh my god and so like you know people can do something like this too like like other people will just think it's AI slop to me.
02:18:36.959 --> 02:18:57.360
It kind of is but it's also like my political expression yeah and it's fun it's fun like I like like if anybody wants a tip make it in like Adobe Express you know that's a free app that you can download and then put that into chat GPT or um I don't know what what is it Gemini any of the other ones and then you can get this as a result.
02:18:57.680 --> 02:18:59.440
And so like you know have fun.
02:18:59.600 --> 02:19:13.360
Like I think that that is the whole point and people have gotten lost in making like not either not taking art seriously or or politicizing things when they're not intended to.
02:19:13.520 --> 02:19:26.559
But something like this is a perfect example of like you can have fun and be silly and you can let people know that in a way this is your political opinion but also it's not like you know slapping someone in the face.
02:19:26.719 --> 02:19:37.040
Because if I were to make a video about this it would probably get um it probably it would probably get taken down like I don't think YouTube would, you know I don't think YouTube would ever even allow something like this from what we've seen.
02:19:37.440 --> 02:19:53.360
Like like if you you know what I mean like if you want to see a commentary on this you got to go to Bit shoot now because of because of right because of how everything is being so um the it's it the if the algorithm detects anything they're immediately just going to what's it called shadow ban.
02:19:53.520 --> 02:19:59.200
Yeah they're gonna shadow ban you oh I know yeah yeah there's there's there's so much that people can get out of this photo.
02:19:59.520 --> 02:20:12.719
Oh the pizza yeah yeah and it's like like you can do this and don't worry about followers or likes like people will peep if people are gonna identify with something they're gonna identify with it.
02:20:12.879 --> 02:20:20.879
It doesn't matter how much how many followers how many likes any of that it's just just do it for fun right just do it for fun.
02:20:21.040 --> 02:20:38.559
And if you want to see some of the silly things I do like like like on my TikTok it's kind of me channeling my um like like a like a little bit silly parts of me but also like it's kind of channel like channeling my um like like it's hyping me up.
02:20:38.639 --> 02:20:44.239
It's kind of like hyping like like it's great to have friends hype you up but I think we also need to hype up ourselves.
02:20:44.399 --> 02:21:34.559
And so that's what I'll what I'm like being the snotty I I guess at this time like this this this snotty blonde whose whose life is so perfect and they know that they're God's favorite like that's kind of the like that's kind of like you could say the portrayal that I'm putting but but I'm also trying to give like little slices of hey being autistic I learned this lesson or you know being um I have talked about the cult um but I just what whatever it is in my life I kind of try to give a little snippet of people and it has some of my advertising PR understanding and I'm just basically trying to I I'm looking at social media now from a different perspective because of everything I've been through because I use social media sites for businesses.
02:21:34.719 --> 02:21:44.319
Like I'm I'm I'm really just trying to do it for myself and if people love or hate it, whatever the result is going to be the same.
02:21:44.479 --> 02:21:45.360
I'm just gonna do it.
02:21:45.440 --> 02:21:51.440
And and I and I and I hope other people can reach that point too where you don't need everybody to love what you're doing.
02:21:51.680 --> 02:22:03.280
You don't need everybody to like you don't need to care if people are hating it either like I don't even respond to comments anymore because I could tell some people you know we're trying to get they were trying to trigger me they're trying to get a reaction out.
02:22:03.440 --> 02:22:08.079
And so like I even heard Blair White once say that she just posts and ghosts.
02:22:08.159 --> 02:22:10.319
That's her, you know, that's that's what works for her.
02:22:10.479 --> 02:22:18.719
And if that's what works for you too when you express yourself, I think that that's that's that's the way to do it because it needs to be for you.
02:22:19.520 --> 02:22:24.479
Amen to that yes and I completely agree with you and empathize with you on that.
02:22:24.639 --> 02:22:39.280
And I think that you know social media we also need to have boundaries you know you can spend all day responding to negative comments and then all it does is just make you feel like shit when you could be like focusing on the good comments and also creating you know like you said create more than you consume.
02:22:39.360 --> 02:22:46.159
I love that quote so much and like I think about that that same quote every single day of my life and try to live it.
02:22:46.799 --> 02:22:48.079
But it's it's really important.
02:22:48.159 --> 02:22:57.120
We can spend a lot of time like consuming and that's another way that we can consume you know reading negativity it's no different than like scrolling through negative algorithms and it feels like shit.
02:22:57.280 --> 02:23:19.440
And these people like they're just sitting behind their computers and like bullying people like sorry but I would never talk to that person in real life and you probably wouldn't either so it's like why are we doing it online you know so I completely agree with you and think that that's really good advice because that's another thing survivors are scared of well if I do post online what are people going to think of me or how am I going to deal with the negativity like you don't have to that's a beautiful thing.
02:23:19.520 --> 02:23:23.120
You can even turn off your comments on all of these platforms which is great.
02:23:23.360 --> 02:23:27.760
You know and not even have bad ones that that even can be posted.
02:23:28.000 --> 02:23:34.399
So I love you know just the encouragement that you give Kayla but that's really really great advice to people to just have fun.
02:23:34.479 --> 02:23:56.799
And I think that that makes all the difference when we are doing these really hard things and stepping out of really uncomfortable situations such as leaving a cult or speaking out about abuse like things that are just really hard try to find ways to to enjoy it you know to make it not seem like a chore and to seem like an outlet you know and there's a lot of ways that you can do that.
02:23:56.879 --> 02:24:18.319
And you don't always have to rehash your trauma either I think that's another thing that you know survivors have to know you can talk about other things online like you're so much more than your trauma you know and we see that with you learning about all the projects that you're working on the all the decorated positions that you've had in your life the skills that you've learned everything that you've done you know the trauma is like it's a big part of you.
02:24:18.399 --> 02:24:24.399
It's made up so many layers of who you are and it's it's required so much healing but you're also so much more diverse than that.
02:24:24.479 --> 02:24:26.639
And so is every survivor every victim.
02:24:27.040 --> 02:24:36.719
And it's also important that you know victims and survivors realize that too that you're an incredible person with so much so much to offer including your testimony but so much beyond that.
02:24:36.799 --> 02:24:41.360
And there's a lot of ways that you can have fun with that and that's important thing to realize at the end of the day.
02:24:41.520 --> 02:24:56.479
And so I'm gonna have Caleb's TikTok and his YouTube below but again we're gonna collab on the YouTube so you guys can actually on my channel just go hit subscribe from this video and it'll bring up his channel also and you can just subscribe from here.
02:24:56.879 --> 02:25:45.920
But please go to his channel too and go check out his videos don't just subscribe go engage make some comments and make sure that they're supportive or else but go engage he's posting new content and it's gonna be really insightful and and I think refreshing for what we're used to with our typical news and media I'm really excited to see the twist that you put onto it Caleb so with that being said is there anything that you wanted to close on or anything else that you wanted to share today um just yeah whatever you're enduring understand that you are more than your past yes your past is a part of you but you can become a whole new person if you really want to it's it's whatever you want to be and just be creative while you're doing it.
02:25:46.799 --> 02:25:58.479
Amen to that and so with that being said you guys again head to the show notes and I just want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for supporting Caleb for supporting every single guest on the show.
02:25:58.639 --> 02:26:02.719
Without you guys we could not do what we're doing and there really wouldn't be a point.
02:26:02.879 --> 02:26:08.719
It would be really sad if we didn't have support from all of you and it would just be like us talking into a black hole.
02:26:08.879 --> 02:26:14.639
So you guys are really the the machine of this operation you guys are what keeps us going.
02:26:14.799 --> 02:26:30.559
You guys are the ones that are going to help make change from this information and I just appreciate every comment every share every word of encouragement every positive comment every like every hype you guys really just keep me going and I know that you keep the guests excited to come on the show.
02:26:30.719 --> 02:26:41.120
So thank you all with all my heart and thank you Caleb for your time today for coming on for sharing for all the value that you offer here and that you're going to continue to offer on your platforms.
02:26:41.200 --> 02:26:45.600
And I'm just really really excited to see where your journey takes you and what God has in store for you.
02:26:45.760 --> 02:26:50.239
And so with that being said everybody thank you so much for listening.
02:26:50.399 --> 02:26:52.959
God bless you all and we will see you next time.