The CEO Using AI to Predict Customer Churn: Sabby Gill

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One of the biggest challenges you have from a leadership perspective is time.
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It's the one thing you never get back, but you always wish you had more of it.
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I can give you indicators 120 days in advance that will basically tell you who is the next most likely person to churn.
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If somebody just turns around and says, don't worry, I'll just do it for you.
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It's like, no, let me teach you how to do it.
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I'd love to run the decision sprint with you.
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You ready for this?
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I am indeed.
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Okay.
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I'm just looking at your face when I chose it.
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Glad to look at you supporting me.
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A meaningful strategic decision you've championed has produced mixed results at best.
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It's tanked.
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Okay.
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Sabby's got an opportunity now.
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Shall we have a look at your score?
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Okay.
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Guys, Josh, this is Sabby.
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Josh, hi, nice to meet you.
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And this is Will.
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Will, how are you?
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Come in, make yourself at home.
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Josh, grab your bag.
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yeah cool um we did a bit of recording just like me to camera this morning yeah just to catch up on a bit of stuff and then we had um one guest just before you and then we've got one after you so just just three today normally we do like five so like you'll know you'll know how time how energy sapping that can be oh god yeah um yeah good like really fast summer i'm glad my
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Aren't we all?
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Just literally, you're back on Sunday.
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We've been in Rhodes for like the last 10 days.
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Okay.
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And yeah.
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Ready?
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Tomorrow, I have to drive to Liverpool.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Go on a ferry overnight to Belfast.
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Okay.
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Arrive at six o'clock on Saturday morning, drop my daughter off.
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Yeah.
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And then literally catch a ferry Saturday night to come back Sunday morning.
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Okay.
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To then drive all the way home.
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So, yeah.
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That's good commitment.
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I like that.
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Well, the thing is, you've got so much junk.
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Yeah.
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And it's like, you can't carry that much junk on flights and stuff.
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So, from that perspective, it's...
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Yeah, so mine are 10 and 8.
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Okay.
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My 10-year-old, same school, just going into year 6.
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My 8-year-old is joining his brother at a new school.
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So he's just moving from kind of his little primary school around the corner to go to the same school that Austin's going to.
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And so last night we had this moment where he was like really excited and nervous at the same time as an 8-year-old.
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So we're like, Morgan, it's time to go to bed, buddy, etc.,
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And they have to get, basically they have to get a school bus that picks them up from our house, take them to school.
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It gets to our house at 7.45.
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Yeah.
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Morgan, my eight-year-old, is like an 8 a.m. Like 8 a.m. riser.
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And so I said to Sarah last night, I was like, I'm obviously in doing podcasts.
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I'm in London.
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Like we got the 10 past six.
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So I was like, how are you going to go waking up Morgan?
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And she was like, it's going to be tough.
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Like how late do I leave it until he can get dressed, et cetera?
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I had a message from her the minute we got on the train.
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He was like, quarter past six, he was up.
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Oh, my God.
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He was like, I'm so happy.
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So I think his body clock's like kicked in, but he's going to be exhausted.
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Oh God, yeah.
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He's going to be exhausted.
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Savvy, welcome to the Human Loop.
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Thank you very much.
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It's lovely to have you on.
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Appreciate it.
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We've just been catching up on dropping kids off at various stages of education.
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It's that time of year, isn't it?
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So yeah, thank you for making the time.
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I know it's a busy time of year.
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I'm going to ask you the same question I pretty much ask everyone, which is to kick us off.
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What's one thing...
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that you know about leadership today that you didn't know five years ago?
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I think probably the biggest thing is the speed at which technology is moving.
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I think leadership now is very different from where it was five years ago.
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If you're not sort of taking into account the tools that are available to you to help
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lead and manage an organization.
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Because there's so much more from a, you know, one of the biggest challenges you have from a leadership perspective is time.
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It's the one thing you never get back, right?
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Once it's spent, but you always wish you had and crave more of it.
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So I think now using all the technology and the tools around it that allows you to be able to do probably all of the things that you don't necessarily like doing, right?
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Just speed up your overall element of productivity, which allows you to spend more time with your team.
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For me, that's probably the most important thing that I probably crave more of is just...
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how much more can I spend with customers how much more time can I spend with my employees and you know it's the technology tools and everything else that's probably allowed me to do that five years ago I'd probably have spent more time doing admin type tasks than what I'm doing today and that's probably the biggest thing I've learned yeah
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And we will get some sirens as we go through.
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Like regular listeners and viewers to the podcast will know that we get sirens coming past here.
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I think that's a really interesting insight.
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A question directly for you, and then maybe we'll talk about the rest of the organization.
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So the CEO of Dext, the technology that enables us to be more productive.
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I think that with the leaders that I observe applying that technology into the flow of their working patterns, I think there's a risk that we can get on the hamster wheel and go, right, well, this can automate this bit for me.
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And all of a sudden, my time that I've brought back to do all those great things has gone.
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because I'm moving on to the next thing.
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Because Claude, for example, insert other LLM, has sped that up.
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I've scheduled tasks for me that are coming back to me.
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So that can potentially make my leadership less human.
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How are you protecting that time for you?
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Yeah, look, I think it really depends on whether you're asking those LLMs to do everything or are you still using it to give it the judgment that it requires?
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Because it's so easy to be able to.
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I'll give you a perfect example.
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I send out a weekly sales bulletin to my entire team every Monday morning.
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And the thing I do is every Thursday, I get it to go look at all of my calendar, look at all my emails, look at all my Slack channels, look at everything, look at all the...
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recent client wins and produce me a summary with 300 words, right?
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And I try and keep it as short and succinct as possible.
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And then that's almost like a V1.
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From there, I am then using that as the basis for my conversation and my edits and everything else.
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If I'm not doing that bit, the first bit would have taken me, you know, a couple of hours just to try and go through and troll through all of that type of stuff.
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leadership personal judgment that you've got to put on top of it and I think there's so many people nowadays that just automatically take the end result and then just automatically have it not only scheduled but emailed and done all you know potentially sent all of that information out and I think that's absolutely the risk that you've highlighted that you've got to give it some personal judgment.
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Yeah.
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And I think that, yeah, completely.
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So that, that personal judgment, you've allowed it to do, like, it's almost like a bouncy intern, like go off and do all of that sort of stuff.
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But you need that, that experience and that discernment of like, is this actually accurate?
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Correct.
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And does this fit with my decision making process?
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Because we all know, like.
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people, it will hallucinate, right?
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Nothing will ever be perfect.
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And I probably then spend probably another five, 10 minutes just asking it questions and saying, well, actually, there's one thing you forgot, or actually, I'd like you to expand a little bit more in this particular area.
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And it will go off and do that.
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And I've given it access through, you know, to all of my...
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different tools and you know that I already use so from that perspective I'd probably save myself a good two or three hours right a week the important thing is what am I doing with those two or three hours right so I consciously try and work out how much time have I saved by using these tools because
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By doing that, it's only then that I can justify the cost of those tools.
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As a CEO, I've got to be able to justify the spend that we have on tokens and whatever else you want to call it.
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But it's also you then become a really good example for the rest of the management team and everybody else.
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So sort of saying, well, if I can save this much time for me personally, even if you saved half of that,
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It's still a productivity game.
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And what are you doing with that time?
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And that's the bit I really want people to think about, right, is what can you do differently now that you've got back that time?
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And obviously for the customer-facing go-to-market organization, you're spending more time with customers, right?
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Ultimately, if you don't do that, then it's like, well, why are we doing it?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely agree.
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And I think that role modelling, new ways of working, experimenting, I think is really valuable because actually you get to experience the wins, the risks, the opportunities, etc.
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And can share that with your management team that can cascade down across the organisation.
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How is that...
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How do you think that is changing for the better or for different the way that leadership is done at Dext?
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How do you see that changing?
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So this one's a bit different.
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I'm actually part of the founding team behind a new exclusive community.
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It's called My Spare Seat.
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And basically it's a private auction community for last minute luxury experiences.
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Michelin restaurant tables that have just opened up
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hospitality at big sporting events, Wimbledon, F1, luxury hotel stays, the kind of things that become available at the last minute because someone just can't use it anymore.
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Instead of those things going to waste, it gets posted to the group, members bid on it, highest bid wins, and someone actually gets to make use of that experience.
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It's invitation only, deliberately kept small, trusted members, exclusive opportunities, and no noise.
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If that sounds like your world,
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There's always a spare seat with your name on it.
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Look, I think what's materially changed for us is, you know, I use it for my own personal productivity, but we're also using it for getting better leading indicators, right, for a business.
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So, again, give you another example.
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One of the things that we always, one of the most difficult things is forecasting, right, a business in general.
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But giving you more data, data insights, looking at...
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previous win rates, close rates, making judgment, taking away the anomalies, really trying to also take other indicators that you wouldn't normally use, right?
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Most people use a Salesforce or a CRM or anything like that.
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And they very much rely on a salesperson going in and putting a, you know, is this deal in commit?
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Is it in a forecast?
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Is it that sort of stuff?
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But we all know certain behaviors from salespeople
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are very different, right?
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I've got salespeople who will literally put stuff in at the very last minute, right?
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We've got other individuals who will take a very long time.
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They'll put it in a certain category of forecast and then all of a sudden, you know when it's got that much probability, it's more than likely going to close.
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You know people's historical win rates,
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So I can use all the tools available to be able to say, go and look at my historical trends of certain individuals and people.
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Look at their opening pipeline.
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Look at how they've been performing and give me a judgment of where you think they're going to end up.
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And I can use that to be able to then have a conversation with somebody to be able to turn around and say, actually, I think you're under calling that number.
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Actually, you're over calling that number because historical data is now telling me and I've got data to prove it.
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Whereas I think most managers end up running pretty blind.
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They'll ask their rep, what do you think you're going to end up?
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At the end of it, they end up with something completely different and then they're constantly backtracking on, well, what went wrong?
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Yeah.
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So we do it from every aspect.
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So I use it from a go-to-market perspective, I use it from a forecasting perspective.
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We use it to try and, you know, one of the big things that people worry about now is, you know, it's about customer acquisition and customer retention.
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How do I know who's the next customer I'm most likely to lose?
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And we've now built tools using AI that gives you predictions that says, based on the behavior of this particular customer, based on how many times they've logged in, based on how many invoices they've processed, based on how much customers have allowed and signed up to the system.
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If all of a sudden you start seeing those things drop off, by the time you get to the next renewal, you can almost turn around and say, well, actually...
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90 days before that, you knew that this was going to happen.
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So I can give insights now to all of my team that says, actually, I can give you indicators 120 days in advance, 90 days before the renewal when they get their first notice that will basically tell you who is the next most likely person to churn.
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Once they've churned, and maybe there's...
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Accounts that all of a sudden churn for no exact reason.
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You learn from that.
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Go back, change the model.
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Change your prediction model.
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Come back.
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So it's tools like that that a year ago, six months ago, we didn't have.
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Now all of a sudden we've got all of these.
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That makes a massive difference from the sales rep productivity.
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But the biggest change we've seen is the customer.
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Because now if you're my customer and I come to you and I turn around to you and say, hey, let me tell you exactly what your business looks like with Dext.
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Show you all your usage, show your productivity, show you all the two or three changes we could quickly make to make you more productive.
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That will drive revenue for you with your customers and have a better customer relationship for you with Dext.
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makes a material difference.
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Before, my team probably would have been spending a day preparing for every quarterly business review or monthly business review.
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Now it's a tap of a button, they can get the report, it gives them all the analysis, tells them almost the script to use with their customer.
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So that element that we saved previously, I'm saving you even more, but I'm also giving you all the tools, but it's all data-based.
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that will give you all of the insights that you really need.
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Yeah, and that enables those reps, those account managers, to be more human because they're adding more value in terms of the data they can tell their customer about the business relationship they have.
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Correct.
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and can identify opportunities where they can save the money, add value, et cetera, whatever that might be.
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And I think that the transparency piece, the access to real-time data and processing, I think is really important.
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There's two bits that you've just brought up, which I'm going to underline.
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The first one is,
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My last full-time role was Head of People and Performance for a sales organisation.
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And I've sat in those forecasting meetings pre-AI proliferation, where you've got three different types of people that are forecasting.
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One is going to dramatically over-predict and be very optimistic.
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One is going to sandbag because they want to surprise you with some good news.
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And then you've got someone in the middle who's playing by the rules you want them to.
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And I've been in those Friday morning meetings where we had every Friday morning people forecasting, etc.
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And you knew who was really below, above or whatever.
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And I just remember sitting next to our CFO and he would write down a different number to what the person had forecast based on his gut or past experience.
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And what you've just described there is modeling that out to remove the gut and basically look at the behavioral intelligence of what we can see within the business.
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And the great thing about that is that if you imagine the history that you build up on that individual and the way that they behave, all three of those different scenarios.
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So you know there's somebody sandbagging.
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over time, you'll know how much they're sandbagging, right?
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And what particular deals and what particular customers.
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And there's going to be certain data points that will give you some indication that sort of says, well, actually, if you ever see this, this and this, the chances are they're going to sandbag that particular deal.
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However, if you sort of see this variant on it, then the chances are we're more than likely going to lose it.
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But what it gives you is...
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is those deals that get highlighted to me that sort of say, well, Sammy, this guy is basically telling you or this gal is telling you that they're going to win this deal.
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Here are the four data points and questions to ask them about those deals because the model is basically coming up with something slightly different.
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So it's also helping people
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the sales manager, right, with the tools and the insights that they would never have had, or they would have had to go looking for it.
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Whereas that's the time that we're really trying to save individuals and people.
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And we talk, you know, everything I've talked about is from an employee from a sales perspective.
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But I think the biggest piece for me is the customer.
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Yeah.
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right?
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Because we always worry about, well, how do I, you know, especially from a sales perspective, how do I make myself, our sales even bigger and, you know, try and close more and win rates and that sort of stuff.
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But you have to look at it from a customer's perspective.
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A
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cycle is completely different to a sales cycle.
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And how do you map the two?
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So for us, having those constant conversations, discussions, like we'll put closed plans together, but the first thing we'll do is we'll share it with the customer and turn around and say, Mr.
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Customer, here's where I think we are in the sales cycle.
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Do you agree?
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And once you've got that agreement, then you can actually then have a better prediction of what you're doing.
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And I think a lot of people tend to be inwardly focused.
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Rather than worrying about, well, what does this look like from a customer perspective?
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And that's something that we play a big part in ensuring that anything that we do has some element of buy-in from a customer, customer cycle, process perspective as well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it makes complete sense.
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And like, without plugging the podcast, like, it's the human in the loop, isn't it?
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Like, we're trying to create systems and processes that allow...
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us as humans and the people in our business have richer human contact, but also not forget a lot of the stuff that can get forgotten by automating that.
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There was one bit you talked about with retention, which reminded me of an episode earlier this year.
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We had the CEO of Briazon, who are a global expansion business, Andrew Fahey,
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And he just built and they just built it.
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And I was like, are you sure you want to share this on the pocket?
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He was like, no, no, I'm really we're really excited about it.
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I want to share it with people, which was they'd looked at, you know, thinking about customer attention and doing customer reviews, etc.
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And they'd mapped out a lot of different metrics and done a lot of modeling and trialed some stuff.
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And one of the biggest things they saw that they included in their model then was how quickly people pay their invoices.
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was an interesting trigger for them within their business of, of like customer loyalty as part of that.
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And it was just really interesting to see how he, he built that up.
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So yeah, completely resonate, resonate with that as well.
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I feel like we could carry on, on, on AI and, and, and how it's helping leaders, but I'd love to run the decision sprint with you.
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Okay.
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You ready for this?
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I am indeed.
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Yeah.
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Cool.
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Okay.
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So quick introduction for, for all of our listeners and viewers.
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Um,
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We have put some of the behavioral intelligence engine that runs Ethereo into the podcast.
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So Sabby's got an opportunity now to choose one of five cards.
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They don't all say the same thing for everyone.
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One of five cards.
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Each of the cards has a different decision sprint kind of challenge on it.
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You get to read the card to yourself and then you can decide whether you want that card or not.
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You can pass once.
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Once you've once you've locked in the card, you're then going to have five minutes.
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I'll put five minutes on the timer here.
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I'll pass you the plaud.
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Excellent.
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And then you give it your very best effort.
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I have sat there.
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So last time we recorded, I sat there and we had a guest, Natalie, who came back on and she said to me, Ben, like, you need to go through this to have some empathy with us because it's tough.
287
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And I sat there, didn't I?
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And I answered a question, which is going to come out in a few weeks time.
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And I just realized how much pressure and how your mind empties when that clock has five minutes on it.
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So I have all the empathy in the world.
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So that's what we'll do at the end of five minutes.
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We will then send your transcript over to Josh.
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Josh will process it and we'll have a conversation about how you answer the question and how you felt about that.
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um all good all good cool okay the difficult bit is during the five minutes i can't say anything okay so i'll just look at you supporting me okay that that's all that's all we'll do right i'll give these a shuffle um and you can choose okay okay so what card just looking at your face when i chose it number have you got you've got card
295
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What card have you got?
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I've got card five of five.
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Card five.
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Have a read.
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It's called the reversal card.
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The reversal card.
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Let me know if you're happy with that or if you would like to choose another one.
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No, I'm happy to stick with this one.
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Cool.
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Okay, let's lock it in.
305
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I feel like we have to...
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Okay, I'm going to read it out so the listeners and viewers know what you've got.
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So, Savvy selected the reversal card, card five.
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The scenario is this.
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A meaningful strategic decision you've championed.
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So it could be a hire, a market choice, a product direction, a program or an operational bet that you're publicly associated with has produced mixed results at best.
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It's tanked.
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The evidence is strong enough that reversing or changing your course is defensible, but reversing it is going to be expensive financially.
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It's going to be expensive operationally and personally.
314
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Okay.
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And your next board meeting is in two weeks time.
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The challenge is with all of this information, what is your call?
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So let me put five minutes on the timer.
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Here we go.
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Five minutes.
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I'll put the plug there.
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That's just ready to go.
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Josh, you good with that?
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Okay.
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Your five minutes starts.
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Okay, I think the first thing we've got to do is work out which one of those strategic decisions.
326
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So I'm going to go based on a hire, right?
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So first thing I want to understand is what's the impact of that particular hire?
328
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If it's a sales leader, that's going to have a bigger impact than it would.
329
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than it would be if it was a non-quota carrying salesperson.
330
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So let's go on the basis that this is a senior sales leader, right, sales manager.
331
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So first thing I need to understand is what will the impact be of probably a couple of different things of
332
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Removing that individual from the organization.
333
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And there's several choices.
334
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So it's either remove the individual, understand the why of why hasn't it worked.
335
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Because obviously they've been through, somebody made a decision and that decision was probably me at some point.
336
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to have hired this individual for a certain reason.
337
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I've got to go back and understand, was there a misplaced step?
338
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What did I miss during that entire hire process compared to the job that they're actually doing?
339
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So we've got to understand, was it an incorrect fit?
340
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Was there something that I missed?
341
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Was there...
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the rationale on why they're missing their particular targets?
343
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Is it a personal thing for the individual?
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Because sometimes they may be great in a previous company.
345
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We always know that experience is one thing.
346
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But when you move an individual into an organization, culture...
347
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behaviors, different traits come out to an individual, especially when they're under pressure and those sort of things.
348
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So for me, that's the most important thing is understanding the why and then understanding the impact of making that change.
349
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We all know, especially if it was a sales leader or an individual, they may already have customer relationships.
350
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Got to worry about the customer from a customer perspective, worry about the team underneath them.
351
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and what impact this will have on the team, especially if the hire had been there for a very long time.
352
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And one important thing is, is it recoverable?
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Is there something that I can do to intervene in order to try and either improve the situation or if it needs to be...
354
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and it's accepted that we remove the individual, but I need a plan or an interim plan in order to be able to worry about...
355
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It really goes back to that impact statement.
356
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Once I go to know the impact statement, then I'll potentially know the changes that I need to make.
357
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So I'd like to also understand what the evidence is, because we're saying that the evidence is strong enough that reversing or changing course needs to understand what the evidence is.
358
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Is it just numbers?
359
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Is it individuals?
360
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Is it people?
361
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Who's it impacting across the organization, both from the internal and from an external perspective?
362
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I think the most important thing is because it was my decision, I got to take full ownership.
363
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What can I learn through this entire process that we've got to do differently so that the next hire that I bring in isn't going to be in the same situation?
364
00:26:40.516 --> 00:26:46.963
But the remedy for me to be able to go to the board is go present a plan, which is...
365
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here's the why, here's what's happened.
366
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This is the process we went through.
367
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This is the reason why they were seen as a very good hire at the point of hire.
368
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After that, here's what went wrong.
369
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Here's what we've learned through that entire process.
370
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And here is the plan that we've now got to remedy it.
371
00:27:05.448 --> 00:27:09.649
And that could be, again, trying to put them through some performance improvement plan.
372
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It will be potentially a short-term interim individual person.
373
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Do I take ownership of it myself?
374
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Remove the individual and then...
375
00:27:18.511 --> 00:27:25.136
take a step down and manage the entire team, which I've done on several previous situations.
376
00:27:26.197 --> 00:27:28.159
But I think that to me is probably the most important thing.
377
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:29.680
It's that impact statement.
378
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It's understanding what the impact is from a customer, from an employee perspective.
379
00:27:34.144 --> 00:27:38.067
But it's also just making sure that we've got enough data points and evidence that we've got enough data points and evidence.
380
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And it's not only taking one or two individuals.
381
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It's almost like doing a 360, especially when it's a higher on not only the people below them, but also their peers and other other individuals across the organization that have seen the evidence that rather reinforces or potentially contradicts.
382
00:27:57.810 --> 00:28:25.938
some of it because sometimes it could be personalities and when it's things like personalities it makes it sometimes we see that happen right individuals just don't get on but that's nothing to do with that individual it's just the circumstance so can we change the situation that that individual is sort of operating it so yeah I think that's pretty much where I'd end up and I've done it within five seconds to go
383
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Very good.
384
00:28:28.674 --> 00:28:29.195
Very good.
385
00:28:30.636 --> 00:28:31.077
Got it, Josh?
386
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Success.
387
00:28:32.738 --> 00:28:33.339
Excellent.
388
00:28:33.459 --> 00:28:34.600
And we've never had to do it twice.
389
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So that's good.
390
00:28:35.642 --> 00:28:37.524
We can we complete the car of our run.
391
00:28:38.665 --> 00:28:40.967
First of all, initial emotional response.
392
00:28:41.027 --> 00:28:41.588
How was that?
393
00:28:44.291 --> 00:28:47.014
You can feel the pressure that you mentioned earlier, right?
394
00:28:47.134 --> 00:28:48.556
Because it's
395
00:28:50.147 --> 00:28:53.471
I suppose one thing is, would that ever be reality, right?
396
00:28:53.491 --> 00:28:55.094
That you only have that period of time.
397
00:28:56.415 --> 00:29:05.027
I think the thing it does make you do is it really does make you think on the spot very quickly.
398
00:29:05.047 --> 00:29:05.207
Right.
399
00:29:05.347 --> 00:29:05.607
Right.
400
00:29:05.627 --> 00:29:07.068
So I didn't know which scenario to choose.
401
00:29:07.108 --> 00:29:09.249
And then it was a case of you have to choose certain things.
402
00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:12.011
You have to choose what situation are you going to put yourself in?
403
00:29:12.351 --> 00:29:15.913
What example out of the because you gave me so many options.
404
00:29:16.093 --> 00:29:17.614
Yeah, it's like it's very broad, isn't it?
405
00:29:17.814 --> 00:29:18.115
It is.
406
00:29:18.295 --> 00:29:23.518
And then you have to really be specific because if I tried to answer it across all of them, I'd have failed.
407
00:29:24.078 --> 00:29:30.182
So I think focus is is one thing that the pressure makes you do is really focus the mind.
408
00:29:30.922 --> 00:29:51.058
um and then it's like there's a thousand things going through your head um so it's like i could say this um i i think this is the right thing to say so you're you're consciously um subliminally thinking different things and probably what came out may not be the thing i was actually thinking about at that moment in time yeah um
409
00:29:51.745 --> 00:30:00.314
And quite quickly, it also allows you to be able to, when you're thinking about one thing, you're probably thinking about the next step already.
410
00:30:00.815 --> 00:30:02.316
About, okay, what's the impact of that?
411
00:30:02.497 --> 00:30:04.078
What will happen at that point?
412
00:30:04.979 --> 00:30:08.183
Okay, yeah, I made a bad hire, but that was ultimately my hire.
413
00:30:08.503 --> 00:30:11.506
So take full ownership, take accountability, those sort of things.
414
00:30:13.348 --> 00:30:18.810
Would I have got to that point straight away or would I have spent more time on show me the evidence?
415
00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:22.352
Until I see the evidence, I'm not moving to the next point.
416
00:30:22.912 --> 00:30:32.956
So, yeah, it's it's I think it's a good way of doing it because it now if I took that same scenario and did it in a five minute and then used.
417
00:30:33.916 --> 00:30:39.118
the thought process to then now I've got two weeks to map this out with a board.
418
00:30:40.879 --> 00:30:56.744
That's something that, and would I have done anything differently that I did in that five minutes that I did, that I would have done over the two week period and all it would have been is just the same stuff, but just elongated with all the evidence, having done the 360s, spoken to everybody.
419
00:30:58.665 --> 00:31:00.666
Personally, I don't think I probably would have done anything differently.
420
00:31:01.106 --> 00:31:11.769
Yeah, it's the first bit that I think, until you've sat in that chair, the arousal levels, like, you know, we talk about, in performance, we talk about like peak arousal levels.
421
00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:21.673
And I think like people have sat in that chair and you can see the emotional, it's like you're too self-aware sometimes.
422
00:31:22.293 --> 00:31:28.935
And I think what you've just described is really spot on, that you have an idea about where you're going.
423
00:31:29.815 --> 00:31:39.963
And I could see you anchoring back on maybe past experiences, your philosophy and methodologies of how you lead and how you make decisions.
424
00:31:40.564 --> 00:31:47.329
And then because you then catch a glimpse of the timer, realise you're like, you're on a show, there's no edits with this, everyone, this is it.
425
00:31:47.850 --> 00:31:48.730
It then throws you, doesn't it?
426
00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:49.691
Yeah, it did.
427
00:31:49.771 --> 00:31:51.993
And you come back and you're like, hang on, where was my train of thought?
428
00:31:52.033 --> 00:31:52.573
Where was my...
429
00:31:53.354 --> 00:32:00.298
And it's the timer that really changes everything because I looked at it, I think probably twice, I think it was like three and a half minutes.
430
00:32:00.418 --> 00:32:01.699
You've got ages.
431
00:32:01.959 --> 00:32:08.083
Then I saw a minute and 10 and then it was like 20 seconds and it was like, okay, you need to find a way of wrapping this up, right?
432
00:32:08.163 --> 00:32:08.363
Yeah.
433
00:32:08.543 --> 00:32:11.025
Just to be able to stop.
434
00:32:11.905 --> 00:32:27.945
overthinking it because that's the other thing that you can always end up doing is you know three and a half minutes I still got no stuff I'm not even halfway through but then you get to a minute and it's like well actually it's really getting close and then looking at 20 seconds it's like right now find a way of closing this out
435
00:32:28.345 --> 00:32:37.451
And I think it's, so I've used the timed element and scenario stuff with leaders across various different experiences, et cetera.
436
00:32:37.991 --> 00:32:39.672
And used it in interviews as well.
437
00:32:40.173 --> 00:32:52.241
And actually what's really interesting is the second bit that you talked about, which is, okay, if I had another go and more time, I've now got a very like concentrated effort.
438
00:32:53.081 --> 00:33:21.514
experience set of i said i would do this in that five minutes which bits would i stick with which are kind of my go-tos as a leader like those those anchor and make sense those are kind of value value-led fundamentals in terms of my approach but also there's some there's always some new stuff that comes up which is interesting it's like okay well actually i said that and i said i would do that like would i have if i hadn't had the pressure situation and the hypothetical would i actually do that over two weeks yeah
439
00:33:22.121 --> 00:33:32.975
And I think that provides a really nice thought experiment for all of us to, I mean, I'm not suggesting you go home now and go, right, next big decision for the business, five minutes and let's go.
440
00:33:33.556 --> 00:33:39.904
But I think, you know, you talked earlier about buying back some time, like using AI to buy back some time.
441
00:33:40.665 --> 00:33:55.659
I think using time really, really sensibly and sometimes on our own, you know, I'm not like Pomodoro technique, et cetera, like thinking about, right, well, I'm just going to set myself a challenge to work through this solution in a set period of time and see where I get to.
442
00:33:55.679 --> 00:33:56.540
Yeah.
443
00:33:56.860 --> 00:33:58.842
I think it's a really interesting thought experiment.
444
00:33:59.668 --> 00:34:01.730
Yeah, and I think it's probably something I'll take away, actually.
445
00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:08.658
I will try it next time I'm given a problem or something in any one of these types of scenarios.
446
00:34:09.238 --> 00:34:12.822
Maybe I will try and time myself and just try and say, and put it all down.
447
00:34:13.943 --> 00:34:17.948
Sometimes just recording it and just being able to then listen back and say, well, actually, would I have...
448
00:34:18.388 --> 00:34:19.910
Would I have done that differently?
449
00:34:20.030 --> 00:34:21.811
Because then you can really break it down.
450
00:34:22.352 --> 00:34:29.059
And the way that you actually spent that five minutes to be able to turn around and say, well, actually, would I really have done that?
451
00:34:29.179 --> 00:34:35.185
Stop at that point and then try and put a plan together and then constantly go back and say, well, actually, I think I did miss something.
452
00:34:36.105 --> 00:34:42.208
and then be able to build it probably further out, knowing that I've got a two-week period before I see the board.
453
00:34:42.348 --> 00:34:42.709
Yeah, yeah.
454
00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:43.469
Yeah, exactly.
455
00:34:43.849 --> 00:34:44.650
Here's a question for you.
456
00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:45.090
Yeah.
457
00:34:45.370 --> 00:34:54.475
Do you have, with whatever LLM you're using, do you have a version of you built in that that you use as a thought partner at all?
458
00:34:54.495 --> 00:34:54.975
Yes, I do.
459
00:34:55.095 --> 00:34:55.355
You do?
460
00:34:55.415 --> 00:34:55.715
Yeah.
461
00:34:55.755 --> 00:34:56.836
So I use Claude.
462
00:34:56.956 --> 00:34:57.256
Yeah.
463
00:34:57.276 --> 00:34:59.277
So I basically built skills and...
464
00:34:59.337 --> 00:35:00.098
Projects and skills.
465
00:35:00.118 --> 00:35:01.758
...used it to be able to...
466
00:35:01.858 --> 00:35:04.480
So if you think about my weekly sales update...
467
00:35:05.060 --> 00:35:05.840
It knows my tone.
468
00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:07.261
It knows how I write.
469
00:35:07.761 --> 00:35:26.450
I've thrown lots of things at it that I've previously done as town halls and communications and scripts and that sort of stuff to be able to then understand, you know, things like empathy and everything else that you that you really need to be able to do when you're a leader of, you know, we've got 400 people in the business and we're a global business.
470
00:35:26.470 --> 00:35:29.012
So you need to understand cultural differences as well.
471
00:35:29.432 --> 00:35:31.293
So when you put a global note out,
472
00:35:32.393 --> 00:35:39.596
Sometimes you forget about the fact that there's certain words in certain regions have a different tone and a different expectation.
473
00:35:40.076 --> 00:35:44.898
So I try and feed as much as I possibly can, knowing the tone and everything else.
474
00:35:45.298 --> 00:35:56.063
So when I do come up with my weekly sales bulletin, the last thing I'm doing, and I put memory on as well so it understands all the stuff that I previously did, to be able to then pull something back out again that actually...
475
00:35:56.863 --> 00:35:58.946
is me or as close to me as possible.
476
00:35:59.407 --> 00:36:05.536
And then I give it my own tone and my element of human in the loop.
477
00:36:06.658 --> 00:36:07.258
Review that.
478
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.861
And then that gets fed back in.
479
00:36:09.762 --> 00:36:11.364
So next time it does it, it will learn again.
480
00:36:11.785 --> 00:36:12.946
Yeah, and it's so powerful.
481
00:36:12.986 --> 00:36:14.206
So I do the same.
482
00:36:14.366 --> 00:36:31.836
Like basically, Claude, again, projects, memory, instructions, you know, the context is, I think my context for me as a founder of Ethereum is like 97% I've used up of the context bit, which is basically for everyone who doesn't use, who should use it.
483
00:36:31.896 --> 00:36:39.300
Context is where you can drop documents and et cetera to help it understand the context of who you are and the decisions you want it to help you with.
484
00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:42.941
Um, so I'm, I'm fully aligned with you on that.
485
00:36:43.401 --> 00:36:57.144
I, um, had a conversation with a business that we're working with last week and I spoke to the COO and I said, right, before we go into this session, so they're a virtual business that like based across the Middle East, the UK and the US.
486
00:36:58.044 --> 00:37:03.286
And I said to him, right, like before we do this, this virtual session with a group of leaders, I was like, what's changed?
487
00:37:03.786 --> 00:37:09.027
I tend to do like a, what's changed the week before we've got the curriculum, the syllabus, we know what we're working on, but I was like, what's changed?
488
00:37:09.907 --> 00:37:16.492
And he said to me, he said, well, we've just rolled out Claude across all of the leaders.
489
00:37:18.013 --> 00:37:25.478
I was like, when you say just rolled out, like how, like where's everyone's kind of usability?
490
00:37:25.659 --> 00:37:26.879
Like where's their skill set at?
491
00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:29.281
And I was like, have you got projects set up?
492
00:37:29.301 --> 00:37:30.162
He was like, no, no, no.
493
00:37:30.442 --> 00:37:33.044
Like we're just chat interface.
494
00:37:33.804 --> 00:37:34.565
And this was last week.
495
00:37:34.785 --> 00:37:35.426
Yeah.
496
00:37:35.566 --> 00:37:37.387
Really successful scale up.
497
00:37:38.817 --> 00:37:40.539
I said, okay, well, I've got a suggestion for you.
498
00:37:41.060 --> 00:37:47.287
My suggestion is actually that we probably just look at building everyone's first claw project as part of the session.
499
00:37:48.148 --> 00:37:52.253
And I came on the call and I was like, right, we're just going to use like my screen.
500
00:37:52.313 --> 00:37:53.435
I'll show you what I've set up.
501
00:37:53.955 --> 00:37:57.640
And by the end of it, they'd all begun to set up their own claw projects.
502
00:37:58.115 --> 00:38:02.718
And I'm not like an AI clawed, you know, facilitator.
503
00:38:03.359 --> 00:38:06.981
But it was just, I was thinking like in that moment, what was the most important thing that's going to be valuable for them?
504
00:38:07.722 --> 00:38:09.903
I just had to kind of pull some of the wool away from their eyes.
505
00:38:09.963 --> 00:38:13.486
And at the end of it, they were like, oh, and we could use this.
506
00:38:13.586 --> 00:38:14.787
We could use this for sales.
507
00:38:14.847 --> 00:38:17.529
We could use this for, you know, customer success, et cetera.
508
00:38:17.549 --> 00:38:17.809
I was like.
509
00:38:18.638 --> 00:38:18.898
Yes.
510
00:38:19.538 --> 00:38:21.940
Like you need to, you need to spend some time over here.
511
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:22.940
We did exactly.
512
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.482
So at the beginning of this year, we actually rolled out Claude to every single employee in the entire organization.
513
00:38:27.502 --> 00:38:29.463
We gave everybody Claude.
514
00:38:29.603 --> 00:38:34.506
Then we put them through training, um, through some basic Claude 101 and, um,
515
00:38:35.226 --> 00:38:40.027
basic understanding co-work, projects, scheduling, those sort of things.
516
00:38:40.527 --> 00:38:44.388
And then on top of that, we also then created AI champions by function.
517
00:38:44.829 --> 00:38:55.871
So these are individuals that have got even further training, people who are actually interested in learning the tools, because that's the most important thing is actually don't just give it to people and expect them to use it.
518
00:38:55.992 --> 00:38:57.792
You want people who are actually interested,
519
00:38:58.152 --> 00:39:26.152
really experience but most importantly curiosity right because they will be the ones who can literally change the prompts move stuff around scheduling activities and so we built AI Champions by function so anybody in the entire organisation who wants to build something because we all know that you know when we're giving everybody a set number of tokens and there's always people who turn around and say well I need more tokens Fable 5 yeah
520
00:39:27.232 --> 00:39:27.953
I need more tokens.
521
00:39:27.993 --> 00:39:33.597
And it's like, well, actually, do you really need more tokens or do we just need to sit down and work out exactly what you're doing?
522
00:39:33.617 --> 00:39:38.421
And that's what the AI champions are doing is then sitting down with somebody and say, well, actually, there's a better way of doing this.
523
00:39:38.501 --> 00:39:40.002
Actually, let me show you.
524
00:39:40.442 --> 00:39:42.404
It's not a case of let me do it for you.
525
00:39:42.584 --> 00:39:47.167
That's something that we're really trying to ensure doesn't happen.
526
00:39:47.668 --> 00:39:48.908
If somebody just turns around and says...
527
00:39:49.729 --> 00:39:50.870
Don't worry, I'll just do it for you.
528
00:39:51.010 --> 00:39:53.031
It's like, no, let me teach you how to do it.
529
00:39:53.412 --> 00:39:58.395
And if you don't have that teach element, then you'll just get to a point where people will just stop using the tool.
530
00:39:59.075 --> 00:40:04.379
Because curiosity is ultimately, I think, probably the biggest thing that we found in our AI champions.
531
00:40:04.919 --> 00:40:13.065
And it's amazing how quickly they get to understand, but how much all of a sudden they free up the time
532
00:40:14.161 --> 00:40:17.685
to be the champion because they're using the tool to do other stuff.
533
00:40:17.725 --> 00:40:21.288
So it's not a case of all of a sudden we found extra time for them to be a champion.
534
00:40:21.709 --> 00:40:33.922
It's just that because they've mastered the tool a lot better, they've actually provided efficiency in their day-to-day that actually says, actually, I can spare an extra hour every day or a day a week to go and actually, hey,
535
00:40:34.712 --> 00:40:35.533
Ben, how's it going?
536
00:40:35.693 --> 00:40:36.453
Let me help you do it.
537
00:40:36.553 --> 00:40:38.835
What were you currently working on from a project perspective?
538
00:40:39.355 --> 00:40:41.596
What's your biggest pain point at this precise moment?
539
00:40:41.796 --> 00:40:44.178
Sitting down with you and saying, actually, Ben, there's a way of doing that.
540
00:40:44.198 --> 00:40:46.439
Let me show you how you would do that.
541
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:50.202
Open up your Claude, show me, you know, and then have you
542
00:40:51.837 --> 00:40:55.460
create your skills, create all the context, create all of that stuff.
543
00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:58.763
So, and it's materially made the difference.
544
00:40:58.783 --> 00:41:09.313
So a lot of the stuff I was referring to earlier, some of this stuff is from individuals that have never ever been exposed to AI tools, but all of a sudden have a passion for it.
545
00:41:10.294 --> 00:41:12.916
And you've got to find those change agents within the organization.
546
00:41:13.056 --> 00:41:16.119
And that's what for us has made the biggest difference.
547
00:41:16.459 --> 00:41:43.638
yeah i spent 22 years running leadership workshops people left the room inspired but six weeks later nothing had changed in how they were managing their teams nobody was measuring the only thing that counts behavior and this is why we built ethereo ethereo develop works where your managers already work in microsoft teams slack outlook and google it measures how they actually lead and then coaches them in the moment in your language
548
00:41:43.838 --> 00:41:46.683
Privacy first, patterns, never content.
549
00:41:46.803 --> 00:41:49.127
Check it out at getetherio.com.
550
00:41:54.216 --> 00:42:07.920
It feels to me like the businesses that are really accelerating across a whole spectrum of metrics right now are full of people who are eager to learn.
551
00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:08.780
Yeah.
552
00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:17.282
Right now, there is a moment that I don't think that there hasn't been for ages where everyone has an opportunity to learn something that's completely novel for everyone.
553
00:42:18.002 --> 00:42:23.084
And I think you're right in terms of creating the right access to the right resources, the right tools.
554
00:42:24.645 --> 00:42:35.315
making it accessible, but people understanding the why and those internal change champions agents who are able to teach and that I completely align with.
555
00:42:35.335 --> 00:42:36.536
It's not do for you.
556
00:42:36.596 --> 00:42:39.979
It's not here's the checklist of how to create a project.
557
00:42:40.860 --> 00:43:04.710
it's it's teach but i think it's that sparking of the curiosity yeah um it's super cool josh waved at us did you see him uh i didn't i was i was obviously concentrating on this it's a very cool conversation i feel like we can talk for ages about it um but we're not sponsored by claudia on the podcast okay okay you did mini jazz hands you did mini jazz hands um should we have a look at your score okay
558
00:43:05.350 --> 00:43:05.590
Yeah.
559
00:43:05.731 --> 00:43:08.714
And this is the bit where everyone goes like this, either this grip.
560
00:43:09.334 --> 00:43:09.715
Okay.
561
00:43:10.636 --> 00:43:11.016
You're in.
562
00:43:11.036 --> 00:43:11.376
You're in.
563
00:43:11.436 --> 00:43:11.757
Okay.
564
00:43:11.897 --> 00:43:12.097
Right.
565
00:43:12.117 --> 00:43:13.098
Savvy, let's have a look at your score.
566
00:43:15.621 --> 00:43:16.982
Oh, okay.
567
00:43:17.363 --> 00:43:18.684
Okay.
568
00:43:18.704 --> 00:43:20.106
32, 32.
569
00:43:20.306 --> 00:43:25.471
So the architect, let's have a look at your strengths.
570
00:43:25.591 --> 00:43:27.934
So have a read of your strength and then have a read of your watch out.
571
00:43:36.418 --> 00:43:38.144
Okay, that's fair.
572
00:43:39.228 --> 00:43:42.077
Okay, so what's your initial feedback?
573
00:43:44.458 --> 00:43:46.179
Look, on the strength, I think that's true.
574
00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:51.342
One thing I always like to do is get a good understanding of exactly what the issue is, right?
575
00:43:51.382 --> 00:43:54.383
And what the problem is, rather than jumping to conclusions straight away.
576
00:43:54.983 --> 00:43:59.225
I probably in my mind, I've got an idea of what I think the outcome is going to be.
577
00:43:59.686 --> 00:44:01.747
But I want to find a way of reinforcing it.
578
00:44:01.847 --> 00:44:08.490
So evidence, data, getting an idea of every multiple views.
579
00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:16.132
rather than because sometimes one person could turn around and say, well, this isn't going to work, this individual, go back to the scenario.
580
00:44:16.793 --> 00:44:19.514
This isn't the right hire, we made a mistake, etc.
581
00:44:20.574 --> 00:44:22.355
But that could be one person's view, right?
582
00:44:22.495 --> 00:44:27.917
Getting a holistic view from multiple sources, I think, for me is key.
583
00:44:27.957 --> 00:44:31.138
So that rather than jumping straight is...
584
00:44:33.074 --> 00:44:34.876
Yeah, I'd say it was spot on.
585
00:44:35.376 --> 00:44:37.838
And I think you're the architect element.
586
00:44:37.858 --> 00:44:42.382
So we talked earlier, five minutes, like contrived situation.
587
00:44:42.982 --> 00:44:47.807
And I think the architect archetype, I could see you orchestrating.
588
00:44:48.967 --> 00:44:49.928
the play you were going to make.
589
00:44:50.408 --> 00:45:06.394
And I think for me, what the intelligence engine has kind of seen is you've operated at your level in terms of, right, these are all the parameters, which comes into the trade-off articulation and the strategic clarity bit.
590
00:45:06.414 --> 00:45:08.795
I think your strategic clarity was really strong.
591
00:45:08.815 --> 00:45:10.956
You could see actually what's the impact of this.
592
00:45:11.916 --> 00:45:20.788
I think in the five minutes, what the engine is looking for, it's like, right, well, actually, did you go into making an actual call?
593
00:45:20.929 --> 00:45:21.730
Yeah.
594
00:45:22.250 --> 00:45:25.294
And, or were you operating at this level?
595
00:45:26.216 --> 00:45:26.396
Yeah.
596
00:45:26.656 --> 00:45:27.137
And, yeah.
597
00:45:28.053 --> 00:45:42.163
And I actually think for you, the way you use the time, you were definitely at that discernment, architecting in terms of discernment, rather than going, right, this is what I'm going to do, and these are the parameters.
598
00:45:43.764 --> 00:45:49.167
So I think, you know, it talks about the watch out, you know, never actually naming the actual call.
599
00:45:49.868 --> 00:45:55.332
I think that that plays into probably the way you approached the question
600
00:45:56.785 --> 00:46:00.086
But also potentially your leadership style.
601
00:46:00.506 --> 00:46:04.506
So what I got from the way you answered in terms of your leadership style was very fact-finding.
602
00:46:05.207 --> 00:46:10.087
Like how do I get across all of these facts before I make the decision?
603
00:46:10.107 --> 00:46:13.508
And as you said, you've got two weeks, not five minutes.
604
00:46:13.748 --> 00:46:15.548
Correct.
605
00:46:15.709 --> 00:46:23.130
Which is interesting on the watch out because when it says you never call out, never made the actual call,
606
00:46:24.072 --> 00:46:25.534
I'm not sure if I would, right?
607
00:46:25.815 --> 00:46:32.204
Even after hearing that, I think if we did it again, I still wouldn't make the call because I don't have the evidence.
608
00:46:32.585 --> 00:46:33.846
I haven't got all the fact finding.
609
00:46:34.027 --> 00:46:34.928
I haven't got everything.
610
00:46:35.329 --> 00:46:39.294
But what I do have, I've got a two week period, but what I do have is a plan.
611
00:46:39.895 --> 00:46:43.577
By the time I get to the board meeting, I would have made a decision for it.
612
00:46:44.037 --> 00:46:52.460
But in that five-minute period, I don't have enough to be able to make the call on, and this is what we're going to do.
613
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:56.782
We're either going to reverse the decision or we're going to continue with the hire.
614
00:46:57.222 --> 00:47:04.726
Because going back to the strength is, otherwise what I am doing then had the watch out happened,
615
00:47:05.570 --> 00:47:12.537
I'd have made the decision in the five minutes by turning around now to you and saying, I'm going to reverse it, but I don't have any evidence.
616
00:47:12.777 --> 00:47:14.879
I haven't done all the call.
617
00:47:14.899 --> 00:47:17.602
So for me, it's sometimes, you know, I think you're right in that.
618
00:47:18.483 --> 00:47:28.566
I'm orchestrating and I know exactly what the plan is and I know the outcome that I need to get to, but I need all of the information and evidence.
619
00:47:28.846 --> 00:47:30.587
Otherwise I will make a snap decision.
620
00:47:31.547 --> 00:47:33.088
And that's not what we wanna do.
621
00:47:33.688 --> 00:47:33.908
Right?
622
00:47:33.928 --> 00:47:43.751
And I think the bit that the challenge, the scenario is pulling against your approach in was about, where is it?
623
00:47:43.951 --> 00:47:45.192
The evidence is strong enough
624
00:47:45.752 --> 00:47:48.514
the reversing or changing your course is defensible.
625
00:47:49.515 --> 00:47:57.322
So I think that's the bit in there where the question is pulling against your desire to know everything.
626
00:47:57.842 --> 00:47:57.982
Yeah.
627
00:47:58.382 --> 00:48:04.327
And I think the thing I would say there is that, you know, when it says the evidence is strong enough, but from whose perspective?
628
00:48:04.728 --> 00:48:05.849
Because I have, because...
629
00:48:06.529 --> 00:48:10.794
Because I'm being given the scenario, it's like the evidence is, but show me that evidence.
630
00:48:10.874 --> 00:48:15.378
And once I have the evidence and I agree with the evidence, then it's easy to make the decision.
631
00:48:15.418 --> 00:48:24.208
If I had the, I still got two weeks, during that two-week period, we'd have a review of that evidence.
632
00:48:24.268 --> 00:48:28.712
Again, it comes down to, especially when it comes down to these types of things,
633
00:48:29.873 --> 00:48:35.760
it will, different situations put you in a different mode of leadership, right?
634
00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:44.048
So in a five minute period there I'm probably, you know, process from a leadership perspective just understanding the process, here's what I would do etc.
635
00:48:44.589 --> 00:48:48.693
But once I've got all the evidence then you're into an entirely different type of leadership which is
636
00:48:49.714 --> 00:48:50.635
Now you've got to make a decision.
637
00:48:50.975 --> 00:48:53.456
Okay, based on all of this, I know what the decision is going to be.
638
00:48:53.856 --> 00:48:57.238
And then you build the story around, okay, now I can go to the board.
639
00:48:57.258 --> 00:48:57.998
I've got all the evidence.
640
00:48:58.038 --> 00:48:58.699
I've got everything.
641
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:08.544
Now I can go to the board and turn around and say, based on everything I've done, based on the historical evidence, based on this, that, and the other, which I absolutely support, agree, and everything else, this is the call I'm going to make.
642
00:49:08.977 --> 00:49:09.157
Yeah.
643
00:49:09.718 --> 00:49:26.809
And I think that's the beauty slash challenge of the decision sprint is that it doesn't allow you the parameters to approach it outside of that confined environment.
644
00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:35.855
And as you rightly said, like actually running this sort of exercise as a leader in a business yourself to be able to have a play with it and go, OK, cool.
645
00:49:35.875 --> 00:49:37.597
Well, like, actually, I like that bit.
646
00:49:38.157 --> 00:49:40.719
I like that bit of what I can take away from it.
647
00:49:41.059 --> 00:49:43.521
But ultimately, it's why we still want humans leading humans.
648
00:49:43.541 --> 00:49:43.801
Yeah.
649
00:49:45.122 --> 00:49:45.322
Yeah.
650
00:49:45.403 --> 00:49:48.705
I think that that underlines this, that actually there's leadership is.
651
00:49:49.225 --> 00:49:53.729
So my CTO, when we met, I trained him as a leader.
652
00:49:53.749 --> 00:49:54.810
He was in a software business.
653
00:49:54.830 --> 00:49:55.530
I trained him as a leader.
654
00:49:56.091 --> 00:50:00.114
And we were having dinner one night on the program.
655
00:50:00.514 --> 00:50:05.438
And he said to me, Ben, I think for me, leadership is where science meets art.
656
00:50:06.315 --> 00:50:08.438
And he said, in that respect, it's a bit like Leonardo da Vinci.
657
00:50:09.198 --> 00:50:12.863
Like, without the science of Leonardo da Vinci's work, the art wouldn't have been as good.
658
00:50:13.463 --> 00:50:16.427
And without the art, his science would have been seen by anyone.
659
00:50:16.547 --> 00:50:21.453
And I think that's the important part to kind of mention here as well.
660
00:50:22.494 --> 00:50:22.975
No, that's fair.
661
00:50:23.255 --> 00:50:24.376
That's fair.
662
00:50:25.097 --> 00:50:25.738
And look, there's a...
663
00:50:27.257 --> 00:50:35.682
there's learnings, right, from this to be able to go back and actually read the scenario properly, right?
664
00:50:35.782 --> 00:50:44.027
So that whole, you know, now you've pointed it out around the fact that the evidence is strong enough for you to be able to make a decision and that.
665
00:50:44.628 --> 00:50:47.830
I probably didn't, there's certain things you always end up disregarding.
666
00:50:47.950 --> 00:50:49.591
I disregarded that element of it, right?
667
00:50:49.651 --> 00:50:51.152
Because I went straight to...
668
00:50:52.275 --> 00:50:56.157
okay, this is about, yes, there's evidence, but do I agree with the evidence?
669
00:50:56.177 --> 00:50:56.577
Have you seen it?
670
00:50:56.597 --> 00:50:57.437
Have you supported it?
671
00:50:57.477 --> 00:51:01.719
So sometimes you may end up overthinking it, right?
672
00:51:01.859 --> 00:51:06.100
And in that scenario, I probably said, well, actually, I need to see the evidence.
673
00:51:06.621 --> 00:51:11.022
And sometimes as a leader, you've got to delegate that element of it.
674
00:51:11.643 --> 00:51:17.325
So if I delegated that and people have come to me and said, there's enough evidence, I probably shouldn't have questioned it.
675
00:51:17.919 --> 00:51:19.861
Yeah, and I think I agree with you.
676
00:51:20.141 --> 00:51:23.625
And it's very like your humility there is fantastic.
677
00:51:23.645 --> 00:51:33.634
I think the selected scenario that you created, the sales leader that you probably made the hire on, I think that just pulls you into it, doesn't it?
678
00:51:34.135 --> 00:51:37.998
That actually I need to see the evidence because I made the hire.
679
00:51:38.259 --> 00:51:39.580
It's a senior sales leader.
680
00:51:40.160 --> 00:51:42.343
And so I think that pulls you closer to,
681
00:51:42.903 --> 00:52:08.651
to it emotionally morally etc which probably means that you weren't able to then at the same time delegate and say cool i've got i i will take that at face value yeah that's absolutely spot on because you know in my own head i'm thinking about a certain scenario and and that exact scenario where i did do the hire um but i was emotionally tired because it was my hire yeah all right so you don't you don't ever want to see if you're a
682
00:52:09.451 --> 00:52:15.655
if you're a general manager of a business or a sales manager and you've made a bad sales hire, that's on me, right?
683
00:52:15.695 --> 00:52:16.816
That's on nobody else.
684
00:52:17.977 --> 00:52:28.204
And you will always be emotionally tied to that because in theory, what's happening now is people are questioning your judgment and your managerial leadership in relation to having done that.
685
00:52:29.865 --> 00:52:32.988
And that's the last thing any individual ever wants to have happen, right?
686
00:52:33.088 --> 00:52:36.050
Is anybody questioning your abilities?
687
00:52:36.370 --> 00:52:37.351
And in effect...
688
00:52:38.351 --> 00:52:47.902
that's what they were doing or this scenario was doing and providing evidence that says, well, actually, Sabi, you did make a bad hire and we've got all the evidence to show that it was a bad hire.
689
00:52:48.636 --> 00:52:51.217
You're still going to turn around and say, show me the evidence.
690
00:52:51.237 --> 00:52:53.397
Yeah, because it's like massively confronting, isn't it?
691
00:52:53.557 --> 00:52:54.877
Like completely, completely.
692
00:52:56.218 --> 00:52:56.558
Enjoy it?
693
00:52:57.418 --> 00:52:57.838
Wonderful.
694
00:52:58.098 --> 00:53:05.600
No, really, it does make you look at things slightly differently, right, from that perspective.
695
00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:10.321
And there's probably a few areas there that, looking back,
696
00:53:13.780 --> 00:53:17.303
you've got to let go on certain things.
697
00:53:17.803 --> 00:53:23.988
So yeah, I've taken a couple of things away and probably look at things slightly differently, right?
698
00:53:24.088 --> 00:53:29.252
Just making sure that delegation, I think, is one of the things that we were talking about there.
699
00:53:29.312 --> 00:53:30.653
And do you need to be
700
00:53:31.856 --> 00:53:35.058
try not to be so emotionally involved.
701
00:53:35.619 --> 00:53:39.281
And I think sometimes in leadership, it's so easy to do that.
702
00:53:39.361 --> 00:53:45.306
How do you break the difference between emotion and proper decision-making and judgment?
703
00:53:46.026 --> 00:53:57.955
And the two are so closely linked when it was your personal decision in the first place to have made a decision that everybody is now calling a mistake.
704
00:53:58.815 --> 00:54:00.897
And that is something that...
705
00:54:02.028 --> 00:54:10.735
I don't know if it's human nature that that will always happen, but I've got to find a way of sort of breaking that mould.
706
00:54:10.775 --> 00:54:12.377
I think it's a fantastic reflection.
707
00:54:12.397 --> 00:54:13.798
I think it's one for everyone.
708
00:54:14.178 --> 00:54:15.159
I think it is human nature.
709
00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:20.764
You know, like just receiving feedback full stop that is constructive, that is developmental.
710
00:54:21.404 --> 00:54:27.490
I think the first bit in everyone's mindset, no matter how good they are at receiving feedback and how growth mindset they are,
711
00:54:28.190 --> 00:54:32.593
to go, ouch, like that, that, that grates a bit.
712
00:54:32.633 --> 00:54:36.475
And then you can put your training into practice and go like, like help me understand more about that.
713
00:54:36.555 --> 00:54:38.857
But look, I've loved having you on the show.
714
00:54:38.937 --> 00:54:40.718
I think, I think it's been a fantastic episode.
715
00:54:40.878 --> 00:54:42.379
Thank you for sharing so much.
716
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.360
And yeah, look forward to maybe having you on again.
717
00:54:45.701 --> 00:54:46.301
Excellent, Ben.
718
00:54:46.561 --> 00:54:54.386
And thanks again for allowing me to get some insights that I probably wouldn't have had before coming on the, on the podcast.
719
00:54:54.826 --> 00:54:55.186
No worries.
720
00:54:55.787 --> 00:54:55.987
Thanks.
721
00:55:13.571 --> 00:55:13.591
.