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last time we were together was a bit different was we was rolling around getting sweaty together leave that to the viewers imagination shall we or i'm ollie uh i'm the co-founder of cyberverse we run a 50 person um sort of cyber security platform and recently done a five million pound series a round what's one thing about leadership that you know today that you didn't know five years ago self-reflection can you admit if
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you've done something wrong how did you handle that situation you know and not just gone ho that you're right all the time it's my biggest takeaway to leadership should we go for it okay let's have a look the human loop podcast powered by ethereum
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I'm Ben Stocken, CEO of Ethereum.
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We help businesses measure and grow employee lifetime value because the single biggest factor in how much an employee is worth over their time with you isn't who you hire, it's who manages them.
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On this podcast, we put business leaders under pressure by asking them a secret question, analyse their score live and mark them against five key areas that make or destroy employee value.
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Let's get into the show.
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So we're going to get into your stuntman movie career.
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Cool.
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So normally, Ollie and I would just walk in and Josh would capture everything, but I'm going to fess up.
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We forgot to do all of that, so we're just going to fess up and do it now.
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Mate, thank you for coming on the show.
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Thanks for inviting me on.
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It's great to be here.
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Last time we were together was a bit different?
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It was.
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It was rolling around getting sweaty together.
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Leave that to the viewer's imagination, shall we?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, that was jiu-jitsu.
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But that sparked my newfound love with jiu-jitsu as well.
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Not rolling around with men on the floor getting sweaty.
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All right.
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I'll be, I'll be, I'll be honest.
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Like I missed, I've missed that bit from not playing rugby.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So just that, I don't know, just being up close and personal and having a bit of contact.
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Yeah.
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Um, I don't know whether I just needed a cuddle, um, but that was a great session.
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Oh, it was really good.
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Really good.
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Really enjoyed it.
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And, uh,
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Yeah, it's different to going to the gym, right?
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You can go to the gym, you can have a session there, come out, you know, a bit of blowing or whatever, but BJJ is just different, right?
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It's that competitive area, but, you know, we're a good bunch of guys that are all in the sort of same mindset as well.
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So, yeah, I really enjoy it.
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And you've picked it up full time now.
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I wish, I wish.
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So I started off with like the very best of intentions.
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I thought if I could do this Monday nights, Friday nights, then I'll develop like really, really quickly.
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And then I realised after four sessions...
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over two weeks that it's basically, you need to be a full-time role.
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Yeah.
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So it's not, and I'm just super frustrated because I've got a business to run, a family I want to give time to, and a new love in Jiu Jitsu.
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So the tension is real.
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um but the kids are winning out at the moment yeah it's a difficult one i'm like five o'clock in the morning so i can't find a gym that's that starts then everything's in the evening so i'm the same as you really it's um difficult to get in and fit in and you get really frustrated because you go i want to get really good really fast and you can't just doing it one evening every yeah every few weeks so uh yeah
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yeah completely we we jumped ahead to jujitsu um why don't you let everyone know um like who you are and um who you are you know the business you're representing um and then we'll get some questions
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Yeah, sounds good.
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So I'm Ollie, I'm the co-founder of Cyberverse.
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So we've been running about eight years now.
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Initially started as a red teaming, so that sort of offensive cybersecurity testing company, built out a 24-7 monitoring capability, and then we've pivoted once more again into software.
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And now we run a 50-person cybersecurity platform business and scaling up across the UK and recently done a £5 million Series A round back in, I say recently, back in September last year.
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Cool.
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Busy.
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Busy.
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And three kids.
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And three girls.
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Just throwing three girls.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So you're busy.
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All Jiu Jitsu ninjas as well.
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So they just choke me out all the time.
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I get that.
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When my boys started Jiu Jitsu, I thought, this is great.
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You know, they're good.
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They're good.
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The discipline, etc.
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But now I'll be like watching the tennis right now.
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We're watching tennis in the evening before I know it.
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One of them has walked behind me and I'm tapping out.
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And it's just like, you're not safe in your own home.
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no do you know it's with my my youngest Sierra so she won't tap okay and I'm like how far do you go and teach your kid a lesson whether to tap or not I had her in a chokehold and I was like and she's like I'm not tapping I was like yeah I can't pull it on her it's just so I tickle tapped her instead okay nice yeah yeah good stuff I like that I like that
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good right I'm going to ask you the first question I ask everyone that kind of comes onto the podcast which is what's one thing about leadership that you know today that you didn't know five years ago self reflection got to have self reflection as a leader I think 10 years in the marines where you are told we are the best and out of the UK military we're the best give or take maybe so it's a very you know
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There's not much time, I would say, for...
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Yes, you have debriefs and stuff like that in the military, but you're debriefing on how everyone generally did, how that patrol went, how that op went, whatever it might be.
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And I think you have that mindset where you're just constantly moving forwards and not reflecting on how did you do, how did you handle that situation with people.
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So I think starting a business, you know, kind of is very much...
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Well, of course I'm writing what I'm doing.
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Of course I'm writing whatever it is that we've done because it's our business and we get to make decisions.
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But I think I learned along the way to be a good leader, need to have self-reflection, honesty about looking at how did you handle that situation and not just gun-ho that you're right all the time.
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I think that's a key characteristic we now look for in other people.
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Can you admit if...
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you've done something wrong or could you identify how you could improve as a person as well or in that situation so yeah that's my biggest takeaway to leadership nice nice is there a specific moment where like you learn that the hard way or is it just being a gradual process
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Probably a few things, you know, like I've, employees are hard, right?
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By far, you know, everyone says it, at least I know running a business is people are the most difficult.
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The best can be the best and can be the worst thing about running a business as well.
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So I wouldn't say there's like one specific incident.
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It was probably like over time of going, okay.
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maybe I could have done that, handling that better and be a bit more self-reflection on there.
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And again, it just encourages people to see you transparently, openly and go, okay, like you don't get it right all the time.
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You don't nail it every single time on there.
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So it's just that, just take a step back, view how you did and go, right, how do I make that change going forwards?
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But yeah, gradual period over time.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think I think showing that as you described there, you kind of, you know, intimate a little bit there that that needs to be visible.
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Yeah.
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And I think I think that creates a cascading of people being able to admit that they've made they've made mistakes.
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And we've learned from that and how we pivot and move forward.
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So, yeah, really, really important skill to develop a leader.
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I think it is a skill.
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The challenge is giving yourself time.
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Yeah, there's not much time for self-reflection because you're just on the go constantly.
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Your brain's always thinking about what's mentioned earlier to do with the Marines.
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It's always that next thing, right?
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You're always thinking, what is the next thing we've got to do?
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What is the next thing we have to do?
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But if you don't do that, if you're constantly doing that, constantly looking forwards and not taking that time to be accountable for what just happened and what you're going to do right now,
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then you're always rushing through things and you're never going to self-improve really much because you have to take that time to take account for it.
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Yeah.
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So...
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really busy life, really busy home life, really busy business life.
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Where do you build that time in to be able to do that self-reflection?
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Yeah, it's really difficult.
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I mean, we both, you know, mutual mentor with Gaz.
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Gaz has been really helpful to work with me to help.
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How do I build that time in?
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And it's not so much just fixed in the calendar.
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I don't think that's something that works for me in that way.
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It's like, oh, I've got to put in my reflection time now or whatever it is on that.
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it's just being that self-conscious or self-aware of how you were in that situation and going probably usually like when i go for a walk or something like that taking some time outside of that environment out of the office out of the house wherever it is because it's not just business it's personal as well being able to um self-reflect and it's getting out that environment having some time for five minutes just going for a walk and um yeah that's when you probably live to do it
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think I resonate with that as well.
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Like taking my two dogs for a walk is probably where I have the best business ideas and also the best reflections on.
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Yeah, actually that that went really well that bit didn't.
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And I think it kind of is that it's that change of scenery, as you said, and the opportunities just to decompress a bit.
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planes planes is the best time right i mean now you've got wi-fi on planes which is a bit of annoying but before when you didn't have wi-fi on there that's like great because you've got however many hours where no one can contact you you can't contact anyone else you're stuck there and you just go oh great and just let it flow and that's where i find like a lot of ideas go on there and then i'm like quick i'll write them down yeah yeah yeah
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Yeah, that has been ruined with Wi-Fi now.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Because now I'm straight on the Wi-Fi.
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Messing on Teams when I shouldn't be.
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Yeah, I had last week, we signed a new customer and I'd sent the contract, had some amendments come backwards and forwards and it was signed again before they landed.
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And we were kind of communicating, and then we were WhatsAppping at the same time.
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And I was just like, it's mental that it's another moment that's taken away.
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Yeah.
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Of, as you said, like, using it for a different purpose, but...
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Yeah, it's good that you go, oh, look, I was able to do that and I could get this stuff done while I was on there.
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But as you said, it's like, yeah, another bit into your life where you go, oh, that could have been time for myself to reflect on things, to have just free time.
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And I think, you know, as you know, running a business, multiple businesses and kids and everything else and finding time to do your own things.
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Because even when you go, I've got my own time, it's like, I want to go to the gym, I want to go to BJJ, I want to go surfing, I want to do whatever.
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So there's no time within that for just stopping.
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Yeah.
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And that's one of the hardest things, I think.
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Yeah, agreed, agreed.
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I'm really keen to see how this decision sprint goes.
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Yeah.
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So Josh and I, Josh made me commit to some scores beforehand.
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Okay.
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So I've put my marker down as to where I think you're going to score.
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So let's see.
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So mid-60s is the highest so far, isn't it?
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Mid-60s.
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What did Natalie score?
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68.
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68.
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68.
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You're gunning for it.
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You've got to.
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I'm competitive.
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You've got to.
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You've got to.
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You've got to.
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Okay, cool.
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So mid to high 60s.
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All right, so how this is going to go.
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So for all of our viewers and listeners, I have got my five decision sprint cards here.
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Ollie, Ollie knows the score.
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He's watched the show.
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He gets to choose randomly one of these five and you can read it.
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And then you get- I feel like you're doing some Darren Brown here.
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Go for that one.
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So you get to pick.
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I had some feedback from someone that said I should pick.
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Okay.
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Like I should read the person and pick, but no, we're going to, we're going to stick with the season for this way around.
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Cause that was a benchmark.
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Yeah.
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Very data led.
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You're going to pick, you're going to read, you get to, you get one pass.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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So if you don't like it, you're like pass.
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Yeah.
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And then we'll go again.
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It's HR related.
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I'm passing that one.
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Okay, cool.
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Go for it.
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Oh, good stuff.
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Okay.
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So you've gone card two.
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Ooh, the money card.
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Read it out loud?
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No, read it to yourself and decide if you want it.
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Okay.
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And if you do want it, then I'll read it out loud for you.
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So this one's a bit different.
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I'm actually part of the founding team behind a new exclusive community.
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It's called My Spare Seat.
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And basically, it's a private auction community for last minute luxury experiences.
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Michelin restaurant tables that have just opened up.
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hospitality at big sporting events, Wimbledon, F1, luxury hotel stays, the kind of things that become available at the last minute because someone just can't use it anymore.
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Instead of those things going to waste, it gets posted to the group, members bid on it, highest bid wins, and someone actually gets to make use of that experience.
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It's invitation only, deliberately kept small, trusted members, exclusive opportunities, and no noise.
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If that sounds like your world,
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There's always a spare seat with your name on it.
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I'll go for it.
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I don't like to pass up on stuff.
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Yeah, cool.
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Okay, so you keep that.
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I'm going to read out loud.
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And then what we'll do, we've got five minutes on there.
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Okay.
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You don't have to use all five.
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Yeah.
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00:13:26.224 --> 00:13:27.165
You've got up to five.
220
00:13:27.305 --> 00:13:27.445
Yeah.
221
00:13:27.465 --> 00:13:28.105
All right, that's a caveat.
222
00:13:28.125 --> 00:13:28.966
I'm going to put that there.
223
00:13:29.386 --> 00:13:30.747
Josh will turn that on when we're ready.
224
00:13:30.808 --> 00:13:31.808
But I'm going to read this out for you.
225
00:13:31.828 --> 00:13:35.011
So you've got some time to gather your thoughts.
226
00:13:35.451 --> 00:13:35.711
Right.
227
00:13:35.852 --> 00:13:38.754
So Ollie has picked the money card, card two.
228
00:13:39.314 --> 00:13:42.417
Something material has gone wrong in your area of accountability.
229
00:13:43.037 --> 00:13:45.558
The revenue number for the quarter isn't going to hit.
230
00:13:45.638 --> 00:13:46.978
Your board doesn't know yet.
231
00:13:47.498 --> 00:13:52.820
You've got a leadership meeting in 96 hours and you need to walk in with a credible plan.
232
00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:54.360
What's your move?
233
00:13:55.140 --> 00:13:55.501
All right.
234
00:13:55.701 --> 00:13:55.881
Yeah.
235
00:13:56.221 --> 00:13:56.461
Right.
236
00:13:56.621 --> 00:14:01.442
So five minutes starting in a second.
237
00:14:01.502 --> 00:14:02.022
Josh, we ready?
238
00:14:02.042 --> 00:14:03.043
Ready.
239
00:14:05.483 --> 00:14:05.543
Go.
240
00:14:05.563 --> 00:14:06.383
Oh, it's gone to 15.
241
00:14:06.604 --> 00:14:06.984
Look at that.
242
00:14:07.284 --> 00:14:07.504
Okay.
243
00:14:07.564 --> 00:14:07.844
Hang on.
244
00:14:07.864 --> 00:14:09.324
Let me give you your proper five minutes.
245
00:14:10.185 --> 00:14:10.585
Let's go.
246
00:14:10.605 --> 00:14:11.085
Might need it.
247
00:14:11.485 --> 00:14:11.825
Yeah.
248
00:14:18.023 --> 00:14:18.444
I've done it again.
249
00:14:21.956 --> 00:14:22.358
Yeah, yeah.
250
00:14:27.243 --> 00:14:27.463
Cool.
251
00:14:27.623 --> 00:14:28.364
Okay, five minutes.
252
00:14:28.384 --> 00:14:29.645
I'll give you another couple of seconds on that.
253
00:14:30.065 --> 00:14:30.425
So good.
254
00:14:30.565 --> 00:14:31.005
Over to you.
255
00:14:31.286 --> 00:14:31.706
Perfect.
256
00:14:31.726 --> 00:14:40.171
So I think breaking it down here, first things first, is understanding the why and, again, not pointing fingers.
257
00:14:40.372 --> 00:14:44.154
And I think that's got to be the most important thing when looking at an issue within a company, right?
258
00:14:44.194 --> 00:14:48.177
If anything comes across and you go, well, we need to...
259
00:14:48.917 --> 00:14:55.159
why has this happened and doing that way, then it's going to be a very negative approach to that situation.
260
00:14:55.179 --> 00:15:04.702
So I think the first kind of port of call here is getting in who owns the revenue number is that in this scenario, is that me owning the revenue number or so it's in your area of accountability.
261
00:15:04.922 --> 00:15:06.723
So ultimately you.
262
00:15:06.923 --> 00:15:07.743
Yeah, cool.
263
00:15:07.763 --> 00:15:15.166
So obviously working with the team then, I mean, probably if that's my number that I've not picked up on there, I think from a CEO's perspective and leadership is,
264
00:15:16.186 --> 00:15:41.112
understanding how do we soften this to the board and to do that it needs to be mapped in two ways so if you've had a negative somewhere is there a way that we can find a positive somewhere else so what I would be doing is twofold is one working with the team to find out okay how did this how did we miss the number why was it not picked up by myself probably self-reflection is the first point as well
265
00:15:42.333 --> 00:15:46.875
working with the team to say, what have we got in the pipeline to come up so we can give a positive story?
266
00:15:47.435 --> 00:15:53.679
I'm going to call it a shit sandwich because you want to deliver good news, bad news, and then good news afterwards.
267
00:15:54.319 --> 00:15:59.842
But I think really it's just sitting down with that team, looking at the pipeline, understanding what is the positive on here.
268
00:16:00.402 --> 00:16:07.104
And if there is something that was key that's missing, how do we work within that team to then drive that forward?
269
00:16:07.144 --> 00:16:11.825
So is it a case of there's someone that's letting the team down and that missed their targets?
270
00:16:11.965 --> 00:16:16.446
Is it a case that actually it's marketing, there's not enough pipeline coming through?
271
00:16:16.966 --> 00:16:19.527
Where is that blocker that's part of the issue?
272
00:16:21.048 --> 00:16:28.671
But really it's trying to then position this in a way with the board and speaking to finance and saying, right, well, we've missed our target, being open, transparent about it.
273
00:16:29.191 --> 00:16:29.791
We're not there.
274
00:16:31.092 --> 00:16:32.032
But have we overspent?
275
00:16:32.352 --> 00:16:33.113
Have we underspent?
276
00:16:33.353 --> 00:16:37.374
Because if we've underspent, but we've missed our target, that's not too bad a narrative.
277
00:16:37.775 --> 00:16:44.097
If we've overspent and we've hit and we haven't hit our target, that's when your board won't be as happy.
278
00:16:44.197 --> 00:16:45.658
So I think it's trying to find...
279
00:16:46.138 --> 00:17:12.677
the balance then take to the board be open honest transparent on these things as well but um trying to find a positive and maybe a negative situation and then going forward with the team right is then taking that to the board getting the feedback afterwards from from the board on there and saying right well these are the action plans we need to take forwards anything else you good i'm good i'm good cool we'll stop the timer we'll stop the timer i don't
280
00:17:13.988 --> 00:17:14.248
Yeah.
281
00:17:14.749 --> 00:17:15.169
What do you think?
282
00:17:16.590 --> 00:17:24.415
What's, I guess, what's the key objective you wanna get out of that from like leadership of the right things to do with the team or the situation?
283
00:17:25.935 --> 00:17:34.360
So I think that with this, so if we go back through it, so something material has gone wrong in your area of accountability.
284
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:41.544
So I think the first bit is going to be, you know, understanding actually as a leader, like, are you going to own it?
285
00:17:41.664 --> 00:17:44.706
Or are you going to go straight to like, is it someone else?
286
00:17:45.426 --> 00:17:49.549
I think what's interesting then is you've then got something specific, haven't you?
287
00:17:49.569 --> 00:17:52.971
It's like that revenue number for a specific, isn't going to hit.
288
00:17:54.531 --> 00:17:55.452
and there's an unknown.
289
00:17:55.872 --> 00:17:57.393
So you've got that dilemma, haven't you?
290
00:17:57.533 --> 00:18:01.875
You've got that dilemma between like, do they know, like they don't know what they don't know.
291
00:18:02.015 --> 00:18:07.038
So how testing you as a leader, like how are you going to approach that?
292
00:18:07.958 --> 00:18:10.840
And you've got a leadership meeting in 96 hours.
293
00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:12.420
There's time.
294
00:18:12.461 --> 00:18:13.321
You've got a bit of time.
295
00:18:13.821 --> 00:18:14.161
Not much.
296
00:18:14.181 --> 00:18:15.822
You're not changing the numbers on that.
297
00:18:15.862 --> 00:18:16.883
You're not changing the numbers on that.
298
00:18:16.923 --> 00:18:17.863
You're not going to slide in.
299
00:18:18.263 --> 00:18:19.504
I don't know.
300
00:18:19.544 --> 00:18:20.645
I don't know.
301
00:18:20.965 --> 00:18:23.226
Maybe one day someone will sit down and say, well,
302
00:18:23.466 --> 00:18:24.227
Yeah, yeah, we did.
303
00:18:24.247 --> 00:18:24.587
Yeah, yeah.
304
00:18:24.647 --> 00:18:28.210
What the card doesn't say is I've got 1.2 million in the pipeline.
305
00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:29.071
Yeah, yeah.
306
00:18:29.692 --> 00:18:31.814
And then it's that walking in with a credible plan bit.
307
00:18:31.994 --> 00:18:39.040
So for me, I think there's probably four different dynamic stretch test questions in there.
308
00:18:39.181 --> 00:18:39.441
Yeah.
309
00:18:39.981 --> 00:18:49.005
And the challenge is, I mean, look, the challenge is you step in the hot seat and you will know now what everyone else who hasn't sat in there, how different it is.
310
00:18:49.145 --> 00:18:49.365
Yeah.
311
00:18:49.925 --> 00:18:51.045
Like, it's different, isn't it?
312
00:18:51.065 --> 00:18:51.466
Yeah, yeah.
313
00:18:51.526 --> 00:18:53.906
When you've got it, you can come in and be super composed.
314
00:18:54.607 --> 00:19:00.429
But ultimately, you've got a one in five chance of whatever's going to come up.
315
00:19:00.569 --> 00:19:05.251
And then it's thinking about, like, actually, how would I handle that?
316
00:19:05.271 --> 00:19:08.032
So maybe a useful question back to you is...
317
00:19:09.863 --> 00:19:14.084
Have you had scenarios like that where you've had to approach it?
318
00:19:14.424 --> 00:19:15.024
Yeah, absolutely.
319
00:19:15.824 --> 00:19:16.544
Constantly, right?
320
00:19:16.584 --> 00:19:25.186
It's always, we have investors, you know, we have a board and no plan survives first contact is the cliche of what they say in the military.
321
00:19:25.266 --> 00:19:28.746
So, you know, forecasting is difficult, right?
322
00:19:28.786 --> 00:19:38.348
I think forecasting, you're pulling a number out based off what should be historic data, forward looking, making some assumptions that this is what's going to happen.
323
00:19:39.048 --> 00:19:54.902
um but you can't ever account for every different you know part of what could happen right sales person could go off for three months um economic factors you could have anything and everything and we've pretty much had it all to to be tested on there so um
324
00:19:55.182 --> 00:20:01.027
Yeah, I wouldn't say that scenario is too far off what we've probably experienced before in the past.
325
00:20:01.948 --> 00:20:11.577
One specific one I'm thinking of when we thought we hit the number from an MRR perspective and then just some accounting where we didn't have the sync up.
326
00:20:11.597 --> 00:20:17.181
So one of the biggest important things I think is having... Because when you start a business, you just...
327
00:20:17.902 --> 00:20:40.717
run it and you don't really care whether too much if your sales and your finance numbers match exactly and it's all nice and data perfect you just run a business and get more money in than you spend right is that's it um have investors and have metrics and details you then need to make sure that those sync up from your sales does align to what the finance is saying on the back end and
328
00:20:41.297 --> 00:20:43.659
And I think before we've had it where it didn't.
329
00:20:43.979 --> 00:20:45.320
And we were like, oh, great.
330
00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:46.601
We're singing really happy.
331
00:20:46.661 --> 00:20:48.121
You're going to go positive into this.
332
00:20:48.201 --> 00:20:52.004
And then finance is like, oh, no, actually, there's this, there's that.
333
00:20:52.084 --> 00:20:52.824
There's this bit here.
334
00:20:52.864 --> 00:20:54.886
And you go, oh, no.
335
00:20:54.926 --> 00:20:57.407
And you find that out weeks after.
336
00:20:57.547 --> 00:20:59.508
So you don't even have 96 hours to change it.
337
00:21:00.089 --> 00:21:06.093
You just then have to figure out a way to put a positive spin on something without masking the truth.
338
00:21:06.513 --> 00:21:06.753
Yeah.
339
00:21:06.953 --> 00:21:07.313
And it's...
340
00:21:08.614 --> 00:21:17.023
It's that challenge between when you've got your internal team to manage in that scenario and the communications around it, etc.
341
00:21:18.505 --> 00:21:20.788
Because with revenue numbers...
342
00:21:23.297 --> 00:21:27.419
With Revue Numbers, those are like in the organisations that I've been in, the ones we support.
343
00:21:27.459 --> 00:21:31.921
I mean, everyone knows whether you're doing the number or not, don't they?
344
00:21:31.941 --> 00:21:32.962
It's not even like a vibe.
345
00:21:34.042 --> 00:21:37.864
It's like we are on track, we've smashed it, or we haven't.
346
00:21:37.884 --> 00:21:43.787
And I think the organisations where culture has really been impacted is when they've just gone really quiet.
347
00:21:44.027 --> 00:21:45.027
Yeah, yeah, just ignored it.
348
00:21:45.188 --> 00:21:45.548
It's like...
349
00:21:46.248 --> 00:21:49.250
Okay, like we'll shout about, you know, record quarters.
350
00:21:49.270 --> 00:21:49.570
Yeah.
351
00:21:50.050 --> 00:21:53.972
But actually we won't talk about and do the retrospective and unpick.
352
00:21:54.093 --> 00:21:54.333
Yeah.
353
00:21:54.753 --> 00:21:55.693
Like the why.
354
00:21:56.374 --> 00:21:57.735
That's the thing is like one...
355
00:21:58.780 --> 00:22:01.162
One miss in a single month isn't an issue.
356
00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:04.564
If you miss one month, again, because you're looking at it on...
357
00:22:04.904 --> 00:22:12.970
I think when you look at revenue on a per-month scale, it's too granular because you can have something slip in and slip out that breaks that month.
358
00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:20.035
But it is that time of reflection and going, right, well, okay, this is another quarter here, it's another quarter.
359
00:22:20.635 --> 00:22:22.656
How long do you leave it before you make a change?
360
00:22:22.676 --> 00:22:22.937
Mm-hmm.
361
00:22:23.717 --> 00:22:25.658
That's a really difficult question, right?
362
00:22:25.678 --> 00:22:27.479
I change stuff a lot in the company.
363
00:22:27.980 --> 00:22:28.920
I'm known for changing.
364
00:22:29.721 --> 00:22:32.602
As I said to you before, you know, our strapline is fuck the chaos.
365
00:22:33.183 --> 00:22:35.524
And there's a running joke that I am the chaos.
366
00:22:36.525 --> 00:22:38.106
But, you know, it's because I don't...
367
00:22:38.946 --> 00:22:40.687
I like to keep stuff continually improving.
368
00:22:41.207 --> 00:22:48.390
And if I don't see how long do you leave something to test it that it is working, before you go, it's not working, and you change it.
369
00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:54.252
I think I sometimes think I can see it, but essentially going to go down the pan sooner.
370
00:22:54.412 --> 00:22:55.473
So that's why I'm quicker.
371
00:22:55.513 --> 00:22:57.774
And maybe others don't see it as soon.
372
00:22:59.014 --> 00:23:05.357
But then because I think as a position that I'm in, you see more of the numbers, you see the bigger picture, right?
373
00:23:05.777 --> 00:23:07.718
That's quite hard to get across to the team sometimes as well.
374
00:23:07.998 --> 00:23:15.260
Yeah, I think that is a... Like, it's a super skill in itself.
375
00:23:15.721 --> 00:23:26.564
Like, the observation bit that you've got and the experience that you've developed of seeing experiments go one way, and, like, ultimately, as we grow and scale businesses, they're all, like, little experiments.
376
00:23:26.584 --> 00:23:27.885
There's petri dishes everywhere.
377
00:23:28.365 --> 00:23:31.646
And you're like, that one's going off, that one's growing really nicely, et cetera.
378
00:23:32.386 --> 00:23:34.527
The ability to bring...
379
00:23:35.487 --> 00:23:50.599
your team up briefly to that level to say hey come and look over over the horizon with me we actually need to go left a bit yeah yeah is is like it's a really tricky balance isn't it yeah and again and as I said how long do you because you got you got your gut right and
380
00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:54.081
There's going off data and there's going off your gut.
381
00:23:54.101 --> 00:23:55.622
And I'm more of a gut person.
382
00:23:56.562 --> 00:23:57.103
But I do.
383
00:23:57.763 --> 00:24:11.549
But now, I mean, I built a business app about two weeks ago, just pulling in HubSpot, Maxio, which is a subscription management system, Xero and a few other platforms and tools that we use.
384
00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:15.131
Just built a software app overlay and just gives me everything now.
385
00:24:15.731 --> 00:24:19.515
now I've got access to data, I'm all like, oh, I'm a data person now.
386
00:24:19.635 --> 00:24:21.477
And I was like, guys, have you seen this?
387
00:24:21.497 --> 00:24:26.602
There's evidence to show people that this is happening, this is transit on there.
388
00:24:27.443 --> 00:24:36.171
But this is still a – I think a lot of that stuff, though, when you talk about gut, is your experiences that have been bought into that.
389
00:24:36.211 --> 00:24:40.055
It's not just a thing that flies into your head and goes, oh, I don't think that's right.
390
00:24:40.635 --> 00:24:43.656
It's, have you read the book, The Gift of Fear?
391
00:24:44.016 --> 00:24:44.196
No.
392
00:24:44.696 --> 00:24:45.436
Really good book.
393
00:24:45.476 --> 00:24:48.897
So it starts off with, I'm digressing a little bit here.
394
00:24:48.917 --> 00:24:49.257
No, go ahead.
395
00:24:49.277 --> 00:24:56.399
Yeah, it starts with a woman, you know, she's going back into her flats where she lives, carrying some shopping.
396
00:24:56.899 --> 00:24:59.780
There's a guy on the bus that sort of got on the bus at the same time with her.
397
00:25:00.300 --> 00:25:02.241
He's then got off the bus at the same time with her.
398
00:25:02.441 --> 00:25:04.801
And it's like, oh, he's not from here usually.
399
00:25:04.941 --> 00:25:05.822
That's a bit different.
400
00:25:06.042 --> 00:25:06.302
Like...
401
00:25:07.082 --> 00:25:08.163
There's a bit of a warning sign there.
402
00:25:08.183 --> 00:25:12.767
But she ignores it because society tells you to ignore warning signs and everyone's fine.
403
00:25:13.467 --> 00:25:17.911
Carries on walking a little bit further, goes into the apartment block and he follows her in there.
404
00:25:18.292 --> 00:25:20.594
He's like, she's like, oh, that's a bit odd.
405
00:25:21.034 --> 00:25:24.717
Then he offers to grab her bags and say, oh, I can take them out to your room for you.
406
00:25:24.757 --> 00:25:26.338
And she was like, no, no, no, it's fine.
407
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:32.863
Probably at that point she's had three warning signs and probably needed to have made some distance.
408
00:25:33.664 --> 00:25:35.505
But she doesn't, and he carries on following her.
409
00:25:35.545 --> 00:25:44.731
So he follows her into the lift, gets in the lift with her, goes upstairs to the room with her, and then he's trying to open the door for her.
410
00:25:45.051 --> 00:25:52.817
And all of these warning signs, you know, it's been about nine or ten, and she's just blocking them out because she's going, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong.
411
00:25:54.037 --> 00:25:57.639
She goes in there and then obviously he tries to attack her.
412
00:25:57.739 --> 00:25:58.659
She manages to get away.
413
00:25:58.739 --> 00:26:02.621
Luckily, that last final warning sign was something wrong here and got away from it.
414
00:26:03.161 --> 00:26:04.122
That's how the book starts.
415
00:26:04.302 --> 00:26:09.484
It's all about these warning signs and that's ultimately what your gut is built up of, of experiences.
416
00:26:10.184 --> 00:26:13.527
And my business isn't quite as intense as that.
417
00:26:13.888 --> 00:26:14.829
It is the same thing, right?
418
00:26:14.849 --> 00:26:20.615
You have warning signs or seeing signals again of, oh, that happened to me before or that happened to another business there before.
419
00:26:21.015 --> 00:26:23.938
It's all these shared experiences that give you that gut feeling.
420
00:26:24.018 --> 00:26:25.520
So, yeah, I...
421
00:26:28.217 --> 00:26:29.418
I think it's so important.
422
00:26:29.518 --> 00:26:41.883
I think that what you've just shared there, like what we translate as like gut instinct is past experiences and run through our internal algorithm of like, was that positive or was that negative?
423
00:26:43.064 --> 00:26:44.384
And so I think,
424
00:26:45.625 --> 00:27:11.017
gut instinct when people have a similar like they have they have experience of similar reps and tenure etc that's when i think you get really good speed to quality decision making yeah because you're like hang on a minute your body physiologically you know there's a hormone released you experience a physiology that says hang on a minute i've been in this situation or something like this before um this is good or this is bad um
425
00:27:11.797 --> 00:27:16.538
And then that then massively influences our decision making and our activity.
426
00:27:17.438 --> 00:27:22.479
The challenge I have with gut instinct is that we are terrible keepers of the truth.
427
00:27:23.419 --> 00:27:35.842
And so we then will avoid our gut, similar to the story, because we we don't want maybe to face up the socially awkward situation of telling the person actually no stop, go away.
428
00:27:42.163 --> 00:28:04.997
is when you get leaders who have they've got the earned experience their gut is often quite often right yeah but when it's wrong it's really wrong and it's expensive often with like senior hires etc with more junior team leaders managers etc them relying on that gut there's not as many reps with self-reflection and feedback so actually it's much rarer yeah and
429
00:28:05.457 --> 00:28:14.361
And so your experience of building an application with data that gives you a dashboard that helps correlate whether your gut is on or off, I think is super important.
430
00:28:14.641 --> 00:28:16.362
Yeah, and that's it, it's trying to do both, right?
431
00:28:16.382 --> 00:28:21.765
I think, you know, sometimes decisions need to be made fast and you've got to go with all of that consuming knowledge.
432
00:28:21.805 --> 00:28:26.287
And it's funny you say algorithms, we now assess reasoning of models in algorithms.
433
00:28:26.427 --> 00:28:45.286
AI and we look at that but I don't think anyone ever looked at how people did reasoning in themselves before and now that's what you're doing when you're making these decisions you're reasoning to yourself of going oh is that right how is my reasoning process on there and you know I think in that sense you know your juniors who just said there
434
00:28:46.507 --> 00:29:14.029
their reasoning process isn't had as much experience behind it so then their reasoning is fairly shallow but they won't want to commit to that reasoning because they don't have the belief behind it um whereas i think senior people as you said will go fall in because they go yeah i've got that belief system behind it but if you can match that with the data then best of both worlds really yeah exactly and that that takes us super nicely onto your score great not yet not yet josh um
435
00:29:14.749 --> 00:29:16.110
In a second, we're going to do a little drum roll.
436
00:29:16.210 --> 00:29:24.474
But actually, whether this score is high or low, actually what this provides is a feedback loop for you right now on your gut.
437
00:29:24.494 --> 00:29:29.377
So when you've finished, you're like, oh, I'm not sure actually if that was the one for me.
438
00:29:29.577 --> 00:29:32.699
So this provides that lovely self-reflection feedback loop moment.
439
00:29:33.219 --> 00:29:36.061
And that's the beauty of Ethereum.
440
00:29:36.161 --> 00:29:40.163
We're like a little kind of nano plug there that actually just provides that feedback loop.
441
00:29:40.623 --> 00:29:41.644
To be like, am I...
442
00:29:42.424 --> 00:29:44.627
Am I leading as effectively as I possibly should be?
443
00:29:44.847 --> 00:29:45.368
Yeah.
444
00:29:45.508 --> 00:29:46.970
Does it correlate or is there something different?
445
00:29:47.310 --> 00:29:47.891
Yeah.
446
00:29:47.911 --> 00:29:49.573
So let's, should we go for it?
447
00:29:50.314 --> 00:29:52.056
Okay, let's have a look.
448
00:29:58.274 --> 00:30:17.465
45 45 45 Okay So you're going to want another go aren't you Probably yeah Probably Conviction 55 The diplomat So the diplomat That's interesting I don't think I've ever been called a diplomat Diplomat Yeah But if we think about How you answered it So If we look at What was that?
449
00:30:17.805 --> 00:30:25.830
The shit sandwich Yeah yeah So you drew the money card And we talked about those four areas And when we look at The diplomat
450
00:30:27.271 --> 00:30:34.456
I think your answer was quite balanced around, balanced around, we need to think about the board.
451
00:30:34.756 --> 00:30:41.501
You measured a lot of different variables as you were talking about it, rather than going, that's the answer.
452
00:30:42.222 --> 00:30:51.048
And so actually, I think there was quite, the trade-off articulation bit is that, can I identify what are the variables?
453
00:30:51.269 --> 00:30:51.489
Yeah.
454
00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:53.751
And what happens if and or?
455
00:30:55.523 --> 00:30:56.184
But yeah, what do you think?
456
00:30:56.565 --> 00:30:58.048
Do you know, I like The Watch Out, actually.
457
00:30:58.368 --> 00:31:04.919
I think out of all of that, really to kind of wrap that up and where it would have been stronger probably was...
458
00:31:06.294 --> 00:31:14.198
I think it's good to be diplomatic in that sense because you're juggling, if you've got the board involved, you know, rash decisions will probably end you in trouble.
459
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:22.323
So diplomatic approach is probably the right one, but being concise with finalising, well, this is what needs to happen.
460
00:31:22.503 --> 00:31:27.426
So do that diplomatic approach, then go, yeah, we now need to do this and the execution part.
461
00:31:27.686 --> 00:31:31.368
I think that's what's getting at there is a bit of, you know, um,
462
00:31:33.047 --> 00:31:38.251
trying to find out rather than do that stuff, then wrap up with a, this is what we're going to do.
463
00:31:39.252 --> 00:31:39.432
Yeah.
464
00:31:39.652 --> 00:31:39.973
I like it.
465
00:31:40.333 --> 00:31:40.553
Yeah.
466
00:31:40.653 --> 00:31:44.677
So I think it was that, it's that, you know, it says fill the five minutes.
467
00:31:44.717 --> 00:31:45.117
Very nice.
468
00:31:45.157 --> 00:31:47.999
It's actually, and I think that was the, you had like 90 seconds left.
469
00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:48.139
Yeah.
470
00:31:48.820 --> 00:31:51.682
And I think, I think the, the operator density bit.
471
00:31:51.702 --> 00:31:53.124
I was going to say, what is that part?
472
00:31:53.164 --> 00:31:53.304
Yeah.
473
00:31:53.324 --> 00:31:54.204
Is that the depth?
474
00:31:54.224 --> 00:31:54.465
Yeah.
475
00:31:54.705 --> 00:31:55.305
That's the right.
476
00:31:55.325 --> 00:31:55.926
This is my plan.
477
00:31:56.206 --> 00:31:56.867
Yeah.
478
00:31:57.307 --> 00:32:01.810
So it's then about like, right, OK, so the plan is we're going to do this.
479
00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:06.593
And you talked about I think one of the bits that would have really pushed your score up.
480
00:32:06.613 --> 00:32:08.694
You talked about maybe like two minutes afterwards.
481
00:32:08.854 --> 00:32:09.054
Yeah.
482
00:32:09.375 --> 00:32:11.376
Which was like, is it the right people?
483
00:32:11.616 --> 00:32:11.796
Yeah.
484
00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:13.497
The right people with the right plan.
485
00:32:13.677 --> 00:32:14.658
Would I make a change?
486
00:32:14.878 --> 00:32:19.921
Like, is there a talent there of actually if we've missed the number?
487
00:32:21.022 --> 00:32:25.566
So there's going to be something around, like, was our deal process right?
488
00:32:25.867 --> 00:32:35.696
Like, actually, in terms of what you talked about, pipeline, the operator density bit is going into that density of, right, where's the mechanics of the problem and what's going to be my checklist of actions?
489
00:32:36.757 --> 00:32:39.140
I'll be back for number two and I'll be in the 90s.
490
00:32:39.301 --> 00:32:39.521
Yeah?
491
00:32:40.082 --> 00:32:41.163
Yeah, you've got to pick the same card.
492
00:32:41.183 --> 00:32:42.465
That's it now, yeah.
493
00:32:42.645 --> 00:32:45.088
But yeah, look, Oli, thank you so much for coming on.
494
00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:48.453
You're definitely welcome back for series two.
495
00:32:48.653 --> 00:32:50.215
Yeah, sure.
496
00:32:50.535 --> 00:32:52.878
But yeah, thank you very much for coming on The Humor Loop.
497
00:32:52.898 --> 00:32:53.459
Great to have us on.
498
00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:54.300
Cheers.
1
00:00:00.151 --> 00:00:21.430
last time we were together was a bit different was we was rolling around getting sweaty together leave that to the viewers imagination shall we or i'm ollie uh i'm the co-founder of cyberverse we run a 50 person um sort of cyber security platform and recently done a five million pound series a round what's one thing about leadership that you know today that you didn't know five years ago self-reflection can you admit if
2
00:00:21.670 --> 00:00:38.823
you've done something wrong how did you handle that situation you know and not just gone ho that you're right all the time it's my biggest takeaway to leadership should we go for it okay let's have a look the human loop podcast powered by ethereum
3
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I'm Ben Stocken, CEO of Ethereum.
4
00:00:45.173 --> 00:00:55.884
We help businesses measure and grow employee lifetime value because the single biggest factor in how much an employee is worth over their time with you isn't who you hire, it's who manages them.
5
00:00:56.004 --> 00:01:06.474
On this podcast, we put business leaders under pressure by asking them a secret question, analyse their score live and mark them against five key areas that make or destroy employee value.
6
00:01:06.614 --> 00:01:07.455
Let's get into the show.
7
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So we're going to get into your stuntman movie career.
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Cool.
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So normally, Ollie and I would just walk in and Josh would capture everything, but I'm going to fess up.
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We forgot to do all of that, so we're just going to fess up and do it now.
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Mate, thank you for coming on the show.
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Thanks for inviting me on.
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It's great to be here.
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Last time we were together was a bit different?
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It was.
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It was rolling around getting sweaty together.
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Leave that to the viewer's imagination, shall we?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, that was jiu-jitsu.
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But that sparked my newfound love with jiu-jitsu as well.
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Not rolling around with men on the floor getting sweaty.
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All right.
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I'll be, I'll be, I'll be honest.
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Like I missed, I've missed that bit from not playing rugby.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So just that, I don't know, just being up close and personal and having a bit of contact.
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Yeah.
29
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Um, I don't know whether I just needed a cuddle, um, but that was a great session.
30
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Oh, it was really good.
31
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Really good.
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Really enjoyed it.
33
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And, uh,
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Yeah, it's different to going to the gym, right?
35
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You can go to the gym, you can have a session there, come out, you know, a bit of blowing or whatever, but BJJ is just different, right?
36
00:02:16.827 --> 00:02:22.652
It's that competitive area, but, you know, we're a good bunch of guys that are all in the sort of same mindset as well.
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So, yeah, I really enjoy it.
38
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And you've picked it up full time now.
39
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I wish, I wish.
40
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So I started off with like the very best of intentions.
41
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I thought if I could do this Monday nights, Friday nights, then I'll develop like really, really quickly.
42
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And then I realised after four sessions...
43
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over two weeks that it's basically, you need to be a full-time role.
44
00:02:45.839 --> 00:02:46.680
Yeah.
45
00:02:47.200 --> 00:02:54.705
So it's not, and I'm just super frustrated because I've got a business to run, a family I want to give time to, and a new love in Jiu Jitsu.
46
00:02:55.265 --> 00:02:56.626
So the tension is real.
47
00:02:57.466 --> 00:03:17.072
um but the kids are winning out at the moment yeah it's a difficult one i'm like five o'clock in the morning so i can't find a gym that's that starts then everything's in the evening so i'm the same as you really it's um difficult to get in and fit in and you get really frustrated because you go i want to get really good really fast and you can't just doing it one evening every yeah every few weeks so uh yeah
48
00:03:17.312 --> 00:03:30.227
yeah completely we we jumped ahead to jujitsu um why don't you let everyone know um like who you are and um who you are you know the business you're representing um and then we'll get some questions
49
00:03:30.587 --> 00:03:31.588
Yeah, sounds good.
50
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So I'm Ollie, I'm the co-founder of Cyberverse.
51
00:03:34.509 --> 00:03:36.110
So we've been running about eight years now.
52
00:03:36.631 --> 00:03:47.317
Initially started as a red teaming, so that sort of offensive cybersecurity testing company, built out a 24-7 monitoring capability, and then we've pivoted once more again into software.
53
00:03:47.718 --> 00:03:59.625
And now we run a 50-person cybersecurity platform business and scaling up across the UK and recently done a £5 million Series A round back in, I say recently, back in September last year.
54
00:03:59.945 --> 00:04:00.205
Cool.
55
00:04:00.525 --> 00:04:00.785
Busy.
56
00:04:01.225 --> 00:04:01.525
Busy.
57
00:04:01.725 --> 00:04:02.286
And three kids.
58
00:04:02.486 --> 00:04:03.926
And three girls.
59
00:04:04.086 --> 00:04:05.266
Just throwing three girls.
60
00:04:05.306 --> 00:04:05.526
Yeah.
61
00:04:05.806 --> 00:04:06.106
Okay.
62
00:04:06.187 --> 00:04:06.927
So you're busy.
63
00:04:07.027 --> 00:04:08.787
All Jiu Jitsu ninjas as well.
64
00:04:08.807 --> 00:04:11.588
So they just choke me out all the time.
65
00:04:12.108 --> 00:04:12.488
I get that.
66
00:04:12.528 --> 00:04:15.249
When my boys started Jiu Jitsu, I thought, this is great.
67
00:04:15.449 --> 00:04:16.009
You know, they're good.
68
00:04:16.029 --> 00:04:16.489
They're good.
69
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The discipline, etc.
70
00:04:18.589 --> 00:04:21.690
But now I'll be like watching the tennis right now.
71
00:04:21.710 --> 00:04:23.811
We're watching tennis in the evening before I know it.
72
00:04:24.071 --> 00:04:26.291
One of them has walked behind me and I'm tapping out.
73
00:04:27.051 --> 00:04:29.092
And it's just like, you're not safe in your own home.
74
00:04:29.352 --> 00:04:48.645
no do you know it's with my my youngest Sierra so she won't tap okay and I'm like how far do you go and teach your kid a lesson whether to tap or not I had her in a chokehold and I was like and she's like I'm not tapping I was like yeah I can't pull it on her it's just so I tickle tapped her instead okay nice yeah yeah good stuff I like that I like that
75
00:04:49.965 --> 00:05:18.290
good right I'm going to ask you the first question I ask everyone that kind of comes onto the podcast which is what's one thing about leadership that you know today that you didn't know five years ago self reflection got to have self reflection as a leader I think 10 years in the marines where you are told we are the best and out of the UK military we're the best give or take maybe so it's a very you know
76
00:05:20.538 --> 00:05:21.759
There's not much time, I would say, for...
77
00:05:21.779 --> 00:05:29.743
Yes, you have debriefs and stuff like that in the military, but you're debriefing on how everyone generally did, how that patrol went, how that op went, whatever it might be.
78
00:05:29.763 --> 00:05:38.989
And I think you have that mindset where you're just constantly moving forwards and not reflecting on how did you do, how did you handle that situation with people.
79
00:05:39.769 --> 00:05:42.351
So I think starting a business, you know, kind of is very much...
80
00:05:43.331 --> 00:05:44.972
Well, of course I'm writing what I'm doing.
81
00:05:44.992 --> 00:05:50.313
Of course I'm writing whatever it is that we've done because it's our business and we get to make decisions.
82
00:05:50.333 --> 00:06:03.677
But I think I learned along the way to be a good leader, need to have self-reflection, honesty about looking at how did you handle that situation and not just gun-ho that you're right all the time.
83
00:06:03.697 --> 00:06:07.498
I think that's a key characteristic we now look for in other people.
84
00:06:07.618 --> 00:06:08.598
Can you admit if...
85
00:06:09.118 --> 00:06:24.605
you've done something wrong or could you identify how you could improve as a person as well or in that situation so yeah that's my biggest takeaway to leadership nice nice is there a specific moment where like you learn that the hard way or is it just being a gradual process
86
00:06:25.965 --> 00:06:29.626
Probably a few things, you know, like I've, employees are hard, right?
87
00:06:29.946 --> 00:06:35.467
By far, you know, everyone says it, at least I know running a business is people are the most difficult.
88
00:06:35.547 --> 00:06:38.968
The best can be the best and can be the worst thing about running a business as well.
89
00:06:39.728 --> 00:06:42.309
So I wouldn't say there's like one specific incident.
90
00:06:42.389 --> 00:06:45.430
It was probably like over time of going, okay.
91
00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:50.313
maybe I could have done that, handling that better and be a bit more self-reflection on there.
92
00:06:50.373 --> 00:06:57.018
And again, it just encourages people to see you transparently, openly and go, okay, like you don't get it right all the time.
93
00:06:57.078 --> 00:06:59.900
You don't nail it every single time on there.
94
00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:05.424
So it's just that, just take a step back, view how you did and go, right, how do I make that change going forwards?
95
00:07:05.764 --> 00:07:07.706
But yeah, gradual period over time.
96
00:07:07.946 --> 00:07:08.146
Yeah.
97
00:07:08.486 --> 00:07:08.726
Yeah.
98
00:07:08.766 --> 00:07:14.788
And I think I think showing that as you described there, you kind of, you know, intimate a little bit there that that needs to be visible.
99
00:07:15.128 --> 00:07:15.308
Yeah.
100
00:07:15.468 --> 00:07:22.749
And I think I think that creates a cascading of people being able to admit that they've made they've made mistakes.
101
00:07:22.809 --> 00:07:25.930
And we've learned from that and how we pivot and move forward.
102
00:07:25.950 --> 00:07:30.491
So, yeah, really, really important skill to develop a leader.
103
00:07:30.511 --> 00:07:31.612
I think it is a skill.
104
00:07:31.752 --> 00:07:33.632
The challenge is giving yourself time.
105
00:07:34.535 --> 00:07:38.817
Yeah, there's not much time for self-reflection because you're just on the go constantly.
106
00:07:38.837 --> 00:07:42.219
Your brain's always thinking about what's mentioned earlier to do with the Marines.
107
00:07:42.479 --> 00:07:43.819
It's always that next thing, right?
108
00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.540
You're always thinking, what is the next thing we've got to do?
109
00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:46.821
What is the next thing we have to do?
110
00:07:48.081 --> 00:07:57.446
But if you don't do that, if you're constantly doing that, constantly looking forwards and not taking that time to be accountable for what just happened and what you're going to do right now,
111
00:07:58.126 --> 00:08:05.034
then you're always rushing through things and you're never going to self-improve really much because you have to take that time to take account for it.
112
00:08:05.414 --> 00:08:05.594
Yeah.
113
00:08:06.536 --> 00:08:06.796
So...
114
00:08:08.328 --> 00:08:12.889
really busy life, really busy home life, really busy business life.
115
00:08:13.289 --> 00:08:17.810
Where do you build that time in to be able to do that self-reflection?
116
00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:19.751
Yeah, it's really difficult.
117
00:08:20.071 --> 00:08:24.072
I mean, we both, you know, mutual mentor with Gaz.
118
00:08:24.092 --> 00:08:26.832
Gaz has been really helpful to work with me to help.
119
00:08:27.032 --> 00:08:28.413
How do I build that time in?
120
00:08:28.493 --> 00:08:31.013
And it's not so much just fixed in the calendar.
121
00:08:32.154 --> 00:08:34.514
I don't think that's something that works for me in that way.
122
00:08:34.534 --> 00:08:37.795
It's like, oh, I've got to put in my reflection time now or whatever it is on that.
123
00:08:38.495 --> 00:09:03.112
it's just being that self-conscious or self-aware of how you were in that situation and going probably usually like when i go for a walk or something like that taking some time outside of that environment out of the office out of the house wherever it is because it's not just business it's personal as well being able to um self-reflect and it's getting out that environment having some time for five minutes just going for a walk and um yeah that's when you probably live to do it
124
00:09:03.512 --> 00:09:03.732
Yeah.
125
00:09:04.413 --> 00:09:04.813
Yeah.
126
00:09:04.933 --> 00:09:06.655
I think I resonate with that as well.
127
00:09:06.815 --> 00:09:13.641
Like taking my two dogs for a walk is probably where I have the best business ideas and also the best reflections on.
128
00:09:14.702 --> 00:09:16.964
Yeah, actually that that went really well that bit didn't.
129
00:09:17.264 --> 00:09:21.748
And I think it kind of is that it's that change of scenery, as you said, and the opportunities just to decompress a bit.
130
00:09:22.755 --> 00:09:43.247
planes planes is the best time right i mean now you've got wi-fi on planes which is a bit of annoying but before when you didn't have wi-fi on there that's like great because you've got however many hours where no one can contact you you can't contact anyone else you're stuck there and you just go oh great and just let it flow and that's where i find like a lot of ideas go on there and then i'm like quick i'll write them down yeah yeah yeah
131
00:09:43.567 --> 00:09:45.669
Yeah, that has been ruined with Wi-Fi now.
132
00:09:45.689 --> 00:09:46.570
Yeah, absolutely.
133
00:09:46.610 --> 00:09:48.111
Because now I'm straight on the Wi-Fi.
134
00:09:48.151 --> 00:09:49.733
Messing on Teams when I shouldn't be.
135
00:09:50.713 --> 00:10:01.123
Yeah, I had last week, we signed a new customer and I'd sent the contract, had some amendments come backwards and forwards and it was signed again before they landed.
136
00:10:02.222 --> 00:10:06.225
And we were kind of communicating, and then we were WhatsAppping at the same time.
137
00:10:06.886 --> 00:10:12.930
And I was just like, it's mental that it's another moment that's taken away.
138
00:10:13.150 --> 00:10:13.391
Yeah.
139
00:10:13.871 --> 00:10:16.393
Of, as you said, like, using it for a different purpose, but...
140
00:10:16.802 --> 00:10:20.964
Yeah, it's good that you go, oh, look, I was able to do that and I could get this stuff done while I was on there.
141
00:10:20.984 --> 00:10:29.409
But as you said, it's like, yeah, another bit into your life where you go, oh, that could have been time for myself to reflect on things, to have just free time.
142
00:10:29.909 --> 00:10:36.633
And I think, you know, as you know, running a business, multiple businesses and kids and everything else and finding time to do your own things.
143
00:10:38.142 --> 00:10:43.507
Because even when you go, I've got my own time, it's like, I want to go to the gym, I want to go to BJJ, I want to go surfing, I want to do whatever.
144
00:10:43.527 --> 00:10:47.090
So there's no time within that for just stopping.
145
00:10:47.451 --> 00:10:47.611
Yeah.
146
00:10:47.831 --> 00:10:48.932
And that's one of the hardest things, I think.
147
00:10:49.273 --> 00:10:50.514
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
148
00:10:51.635 --> 00:10:54.838
I'm really keen to see how this decision sprint goes.
149
00:10:55.098 --> 00:10:55.659
Yeah.
150
00:10:56.119 --> 00:10:59.842
So Josh and I, Josh made me commit to some scores beforehand.
151
00:11:00.063 --> 00:11:00.303
Okay.
152
00:11:00.503 --> 00:11:05.867
So I've put my marker down as to where I think you're going to score.
153
00:11:06.007 --> 00:11:06.508
So let's see.
154
00:11:06.608 --> 00:11:08.690
So mid-60s is the highest so far, isn't it?
155
00:11:08.930 --> 00:11:09.630
Mid-60s.
156
00:11:09.650 --> 00:11:11.632
What did Natalie score?
157
00:11:11.712 --> 00:11:11.872
68.
158
00:11:12.132 --> 00:11:12.412
68.
159
00:11:12.472 --> 00:11:12.633
68.
160
00:11:12.753 --> 00:11:13.333
You're gunning for it.
161
00:11:14.074 --> 00:11:14.394
You've got to.
162
00:11:14.414 --> 00:11:14.994
I'm competitive.
163
00:11:15.014 --> 00:11:15.415
You've got to.
164
00:11:15.435 --> 00:11:15.815
You've got to.
165
00:11:15.855 --> 00:11:16.456
You've got to.
166
00:11:16.616 --> 00:11:17.096
Okay, cool.
167
00:11:17.536 --> 00:11:19.478
So mid to high 60s.
168
00:11:20.819 --> 00:11:22.180
All right, so how this is going to go.
169
00:11:22.601 --> 00:11:27.525
So for all of our viewers and listeners, I have got my five decision sprint cards here.
170
00:11:28.225 --> 00:11:29.707
Ollie, Ollie knows the score.
171
00:11:29.987 --> 00:11:31.468
He's watched the show.
172
00:11:31.808 --> 00:11:37.153
He gets to choose randomly one of these five and you can read it.
173
00:11:37.353 --> 00:11:40.236
And then you get- I feel like you're doing some Darren Brown here.
174
00:11:40.276 --> 00:11:42.277
Go for that one.
175
00:11:42.377 --> 00:11:43.819
So you get to pick.
176
00:11:44.019 --> 00:11:46.201
I had some feedback from someone that said I should pick.
177
00:11:46.741 --> 00:11:47.041
Okay.
178
00:11:47.081 --> 00:11:51.282
Like I should read the person and pick, but no, we're going to, we're going to stick with the season for this way around.
179
00:11:51.302 --> 00:11:52.662
Cause that was a benchmark.
180
00:11:52.862 --> 00:11:53.043
Yeah.
181
00:11:53.303 --> 00:11:54.023
Very data led.
182
00:11:54.603 --> 00:11:58.664
You're going to pick, you're going to read, you get to, you get one pass.
183
00:11:58.944 --> 00:11:59.044
Yeah.
184
00:11:59.064 --> 00:11:59.404
All right.
185
00:11:59.424 --> 00:12:00.664
So if you don't like it, you're like pass.
186
00:12:00.724 --> 00:12:01.224
Yeah.
187
00:12:01.445 --> 00:12:02.085
And then we'll go again.
188
00:12:02.305 --> 00:12:03.105
It's HR related.
189
00:12:03.125 --> 00:12:05.185
I'm passing that one.
190
00:12:05.245 --> 00:12:05.706
Okay, cool.
191
00:12:05.746 --> 00:12:07.446
Go for it.
192
00:12:08.226 --> 00:12:09.006
Oh, good stuff.
193
00:12:09.146 --> 00:12:09.506
Okay.
194
00:12:10.067 --> 00:12:11.367
So you've gone card two.
195
00:12:12.587 --> 00:12:14.228
Ooh, the money card.
196
00:12:14.728 --> 00:12:16.829
Read it out loud?
197
00:12:17.290 --> 00:12:19.331
No, read it to yourself and decide if you want it.
198
00:12:19.491 --> 00:12:19.711
Okay.
199
00:12:20.211 --> 00:12:22.633
And if you do want it, then I'll read it out loud for you.
200
00:12:23.093 --> 00:12:24.134
So this one's a bit different.
201
00:12:24.454 --> 00:12:27.976
I'm actually part of the founding team behind a new exclusive community.
202
00:12:28.336 --> 00:12:29.537
It's called My Spare Seat.
203
00:12:30.097 --> 00:12:35.280
And basically, it's a private auction community for last minute luxury experiences.
204
00:12:35.660 --> 00:12:38.082
Michelin restaurant tables that have just opened up.
205
00:12:38.642 --> 00:12:49.585
hospitality at big sporting events, Wimbledon, F1, luxury hotel stays, the kind of things that become available at the last minute because someone just can't use it anymore.
206
00:12:49.865 --> 00:12:58.527
Instead of those things going to waste, it gets posted to the group, members bid on it, highest bid wins, and someone actually gets to make use of that experience.
207
00:12:58.847 --> 00:13:05.388
It's invitation only, deliberately kept small, trusted members, exclusive opportunities, and no noise.
208
00:13:05.788 --> 00:13:07.029
If that sounds like your world,
209
00:13:08.832 --> 00:13:10.690
There's always a spare seat with your name on it.
210
00:13:15.255 --> 00:13:15.775
I'll go for it.
211
00:13:15.795 --> 00:13:17.537
I don't like to pass up on stuff.
212
00:13:17.617 --> 00:13:18.057
Yeah, cool.
213
00:13:18.117 --> 00:13:19.038
Okay, so you keep that.
214
00:13:19.699 --> 00:13:21.040
I'm going to read out loud.
215
00:13:21.060 --> 00:13:23.041
And then what we'll do, we've got five minutes on there.
216
00:13:23.502 --> 00:13:23.842
Okay.
217
00:13:24.482 --> 00:13:25.643
You don't have to use all five.
218
00:13:25.743 --> 00:13:25.944
Yeah.
219
00:13:26.224 --> 00:13:27.165
You've got up to five.
220
00:13:27.305 --> 00:13:27.445
Yeah.
221
00:13:27.465 --> 00:13:28.105
All right, that's a caveat.
222
00:13:28.125 --> 00:13:28.966
I'm going to put that there.
223
00:13:29.386 --> 00:13:30.747
Josh will turn that on when we're ready.
224
00:13:30.808 --> 00:13:31.808
But I'm going to read this out for you.
225
00:13:31.828 --> 00:13:35.011
So you've got some time to gather your thoughts.
226
00:13:35.451 --> 00:13:35.711
Right.
227
00:13:35.852 --> 00:13:38.754
So Ollie has picked the money card, card two.
228
00:13:39.314 --> 00:13:42.417
Something material has gone wrong in your area of accountability.
229
00:13:43.037 --> 00:13:45.558
The revenue number for the quarter isn't going to hit.
230
00:13:45.638 --> 00:13:46.978
Your board doesn't know yet.
231
00:13:47.498 --> 00:13:52.820
You've got a leadership meeting in 96 hours and you need to walk in with a credible plan.
232
00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:54.360
What's your move?
233
00:13:55.140 --> 00:13:55.501
All right.
234
00:13:55.701 --> 00:13:55.881
Yeah.
235
00:13:56.221 --> 00:13:56.461
Right.
236
00:13:56.621 --> 00:14:01.442
So five minutes starting in a second.
237
00:14:01.502 --> 00:14:02.022
Josh, we ready?
238
00:14:02.042 --> 00:14:03.043
Ready.
239
00:14:05.483 --> 00:14:05.543
Go.
240
00:14:05.563 --> 00:14:06.383
Oh, it's gone to 15.
241
00:14:06.604 --> 00:14:06.984
Look at that.
242
00:14:07.284 --> 00:14:07.504
Okay.
243
00:14:07.564 --> 00:14:07.844
Hang on.
244
00:14:07.864 --> 00:14:09.324
Let me give you your proper five minutes.
245
00:14:10.185 --> 00:14:10.585
Let's go.
246
00:14:10.605 --> 00:14:11.085
Might need it.
247
00:14:11.485 --> 00:14:11.825
Yeah.
248
00:14:18.023 --> 00:14:18.444
I've done it again.
249
00:14:21.956 --> 00:14:22.358
Yeah, yeah.
250
00:14:27.243 --> 00:14:27.463
Cool.
251
00:14:27.623 --> 00:14:28.364
Okay, five minutes.
252
00:14:28.384 --> 00:14:29.645
I'll give you another couple of seconds on that.
253
00:14:30.065 --> 00:14:30.425
So good.
254
00:14:30.565 --> 00:14:31.005
Over to you.
255
00:14:31.286 --> 00:14:31.706
Perfect.
256
00:14:31.726 --> 00:14:40.171
So I think breaking it down here, first things first, is understanding the why and, again, not pointing fingers.
257
00:14:40.372 --> 00:14:44.154
And I think that's got to be the most important thing when looking at an issue within a company, right?
258
00:14:44.194 --> 00:14:48.177
If anything comes across and you go, well, we need to...
259
00:14:48.917 --> 00:14:55.159
why has this happened and doing that way, then it's going to be a very negative approach to that situation.
260
00:14:55.179 --> 00:15:04.702
So I think the first kind of port of call here is getting in who owns the revenue number is that in this scenario, is that me owning the revenue number or so it's in your area of accountability.
261
00:15:04.922 --> 00:15:06.723
So ultimately you.
262
00:15:06.923 --> 00:15:07.743
Yeah, cool.
263
00:15:07.763 --> 00:15:15.166
So obviously working with the team then, I mean, probably if that's my number that I've not picked up on there, I think from a CEO's perspective and leadership is,
264
00:15:16.186 --> 00:15:41.112
understanding how do we soften this to the board and to do that it needs to be mapped in two ways so if you've had a negative somewhere is there a way that we can find a positive somewhere else so what I would be doing is twofold is one working with the team to find out okay how did this how did we miss the number why was it not picked up by myself probably self-reflection is the first point as well
265
00:15:42.333 --> 00:15:46.875
working with the team to say, what have we got in the pipeline to come up so we can give a positive story?
266
00:15:47.435 --> 00:15:53.679
I'm going to call it a shit sandwich because you want to deliver good news, bad news, and then good news afterwards.
267
00:15:54.319 --> 00:15:59.842
But I think really it's just sitting down with that team, looking at the pipeline, understanding what is the positive on here.
268
00:16:00.402 --> 00:16:07.104
And if there is something that was key that's missing, how do we work within that team to then drive that forward?
269
00:16:07.144 --> 00:16:11.825
So is it a case of there's someone that's letting the team down and that missed their targets?
270
00:16:11.965 --> 00:16:16.446
Is it a case that actually it's marketing, there's not enough pipeline coming through?
271
00:16:16.966 --> 00:16:19.527
Where is that blocker that's part of the issue?
272
00:16:21.048 --> 00:16:28.671
But really it's trying to then position this in a way with the board and speaking to finance and saying, right, well, we've missed our target, being open, transparent about it.
273
00:16:29.191 --> 00:16:29.791
We're not there.
274
00:16:31.092 --> 00:16:32.032
But have we overspent?
275
00:16:32.352 --> 00:16:33.113
Have we underspent?
276
00:16:33.353 --> 00:16:37.374
Because if we've underspent, but we've missed our target, that's not too bad a narrative.
277
00:16:37.775 --> 00:16:44.097
If we've overspent and we've hit and we haven't hit our target, that's when your board won't be as happy.
278
00:16:44.197 --> 00:16:45.658
So I think it's trying to find...
279
00:16:46.138 --> 00:17:12.677
the balance then take to the board be open honest transparent on these things as well but um trying to find a positive and maybe a negative situation and then going forward with the team right is then taking that to the board getting the feedback afterwards from from the board on there and saying right well these are the action plans we need to take forwards anything else you good i'm good i'm good cool we'll stop the timer we'll stop the timer i don't
280
00:17:13.988 --> 00:17:14.248
Yeah.
281
00:17:14.749 --> 00:17:15.169
What do you think?
282
00:17:16.590 --> 00:17:24.415
What's, I guess, what's the key objective you wanna get out of that from like leadership of the right things to do with the team or the situation?
283
00:17:25.935 --> 00:17:34.360
So I think that with this, so if we go back through it, so something material has gone wrong in your area of accountability.
284
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:41.544
So I think the first bit is going to be, you know, understanding actually as a leader, like, are you going to own it?
285
00:17:41.664 --> 00:17:44.706
Or are you going to go straight to like, is it someone else?
286
00:17:45.426 --> 00:17:49.549
I think what's interesting then is you've then got something specific, haven't you?
287
00:17:49.569 --> 00:17:52.971
It's like that revenue number for a specific, isn't going to hit.
288
00:17:54.531 --> 00:17:55.452
and there's an unknown.
289
00:17:55.872 --> 00:17:57.393
So you've got that dilemma, haven't you?
290
00:17:57.533 --> 00:18:01.875
You've got that dilemma between like, do they know, like they don't know what they don't know.
291
00:18:02.015 --> 00:18:07.038
So how testing you as a leader, like how are you going to approach that?
292
00:18:07.958 --> 00:18:10.840
And you've got a leadership meeting in 96 hours.
293
00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:12.420
There's time.
294
00:18:12.461 --> 00:18:13.321
You've got a bit of time.
295
00:18:13.821 --> 00:18:14.161
Not much.
296
00:18:14.181 --> 00:18:15.822
You're not changing the numbers on that.
297
00:18:15.862 --> 00:18:16.883
You're not changing the numbers on that.
298
00:18:16.923 --> 00:18:17.863
You're not going to slide in.
299
00:18:18.263 --> 00:18:19.504
I don't know.
300
00:18:19.544 --> 00:18:20.645
I don't know.
301
00:18:20.965 --> 00:18:23.226
Maybe one day someone will sit down and say, well,
302
00:18:23.466 --> 00:18:24.227
Yeah, yeah, we did.
303
00:18:24.247 --> 00:18:24.587
Yeah, yeah.
304
00:18:24.647 --> 00:18:28.210
What the card doesn't say is I've got 1.2 million in the pipeline.
305
00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:29.071
Yeah, yeah.
306
00:18:29.692 --> 00:18:31.814
And then it's that walking in with a credible plan bit.
307
00:18:31.994 --> 00:18:39.040
So for me, I think there's probably four different dynamic stretch test questions in there.
308
00:18:39.181 --> 00:18:39.441
Yeah.
309
00:18:39.981 --> 00:18:49.005
And the challenge is, I mean, look, the challenge is you step in the hot seat and you will know now what everyone else who hasn't sat in there, how different it is.
310
00:18:49.145 --> 00:18:49.365
Yeah.
311
00:18:49.925 --> 00:18:51.045
Like, it's different, isn't it?
312
00:18:51.065 --> 00:18:51.466
Yeah, yeah.
313
00:18:51.526 --> 00:18:53.906
When you've got it, you can come in and be super composed.
314
00:18:54.607 --> 00:19:00.429
But ultimately, you've got a one in five chance of whatever's going to come up.
315
00:19:00.569 --> 00:19:05.251
And then it's thinking about, like, actually, how would I handle that?
316
00:19:05.271 --> 00:19:08.032
So maybe a useful question back to you is...
317
00:19:09.863 --> 00:19:14.084
Have you had scenarios like that where you've had to approach it?
318
00:19:14.424 --> 00:19:15.024
Yeah, absolutely.
319
00:19:15.824 --> 00:19:16.544
Constantly, right?
320
00:19:16.584 --> 00:19:25.186
It's always, we have investors, you know, we have a board and no plan survives first contact is the cliche of what they say in the military.
321
00:19:25.266 --> 00:19:28.746
So, you know, forecasting is difficult, right?
322
00:19:28.786 --> 00:19:38.348
I think forecasting, you're pulling a number out based off what should be historic data, forward looking, making some assumptions that this is what's going to happen.
323
00:19:39.048 --> 00:19:54.902
um but you can't ever account for every different you know part of what could happen right sales person could go off for three months um economic factors you could have anything and everything and we've pretty much had it all to to be tested on there so um
324
00:19:55.182 --> 00:20:01.027
Yeah, I wouldn't say that scenario is too far off what we've probably experienced before in the past.
325
00:20:01.948 --> 00:20:11.577
One specific one I'm thinking of when we thought we hit the number from an MRR perspective and then just some accounting where we didn't have the sync up.
326
00:20:11.597 --> 00:20:17.181
So one of the biggest important things I think is having... Because when you start a business, you just...
327
00:20:17.902 --> 00:20:40.717
run it and you don't really care whether too much if your sales and your finance numbers match exactly and it's all nice and data perfect you just run a business and get more money in than you spend right is that's it um have investors and have metrics and details you then need to make sure that those sync up from your sales does align to what the finance is saying on the back end and
328
00:20:41.297 --> 00:20:43.659
And I think before we've had it where it didn't.
329
00:20:43.979 --> 00:20:45.320
And we were like, oh, great.
330
00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:46.601
We're singing really happy.
331
00:20:46.661 --> 00:20:48.121
You're going to go positive into this.
332
00:20:48.201 --> 00:20:52.004
And then finance is like, oh, no, actually, there's this, there's that.
333
00:20:52.084 --> 00:20:52.824
There's this bit here.
334
00:20:52.864 --> 00:20:54.886
And you go, oh, no.
335
00:20:54.926 --> 00:20:57.407
And you find that out weeks after.
336
00:20:57.547 --> 00:20:59.508
So you don't even have 96 hours to change it.
337
00:21:00.089 --> 00:21:06.093
You just then have to figure out a way to put a positive spin on something without masking the truth.
338
00:21:06.513 --> 00:21:06.753
Yeah.
339
00:21:06.953 --> 00:21:07.313
And it's...
340
00:21:08.614 --> 00:21:17.023
It's that challenge between when you've got your internal team to manage in that scenario and the communications around it, etc.
341
00:21:18.505 --> 00:21:20.788
Because with revenue numbers...
342
00:21:23.297 --> 00:21:27.419
With Revue Numbers, those are like in the organisations that I've been in, the ones we support.
343
00:21:27.459 --> 00:21:31.921
I mean, everyone knows whether you're doing the number or not, don't they?
344
00:21:31.941 --> 00:21:32.962
It's not even like a vibe.
345
00:21:34.042 --> 00:21:37.864
It's like we are on track, we've smashed it, or we haven't.
346
00:21:37.884 --> 00:21:43.787
And I think the organisations where culture has really been impacted is when they've just gone really quiet.
347
00:21:44.027 --> 00:21:45.027
Yeah, yeah, just ignored it.
348
00:21:45.188 --> 00:21:45.548
It's like...
349
00:21:46.248 --> 00:21:49.250
Okay, like we'll shout about, you know, record quarters.
350
00:21:49.270 --> 00:21:49.570
Yeah.
351
00:21:50.050 --> 00:21:53.972
But actually we won't talk about and do the retrospective and unpick.
352
00:21:54.093 --> 00:21:54.333
Yeah.
353
00:21:54.753 --> 00:21:55.693
Like the why.
354
00:21:56.374 --> 00:21:57.735
That's the thing is like one...
355
00:21:58.780 --> 00:22:01.162
One miss in a single month isn't an issue.
356
00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:04.564
If you miss one month, again, because you're looking at it on...
357
00:22:04.904 --> 00:22:12.970
I think when you look at revenue on a per-month scale, it's too granular because you can have something slip in and slip out that breaks that month.
358
00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:20.035
But it is that time of reflection and going, right, well, okay, this is another quarter here, it's another quarter.
359
00:22:20.635 --> 00:22:22.656
How long do you leave it before you make a change?
360
00:22:22.676 --> 00:22:22.937
Mm-hmm.
361
00:22:23.717 --> 00:22:25.658
That's a really difficult question, right?
362
00:22:25.678 --> 00:22:27.479
I change stuff a lot in the company.
363
00:22:27.980 --> 00:22:28.920
I'm known for changing.
364
00:22:29.721 --> 00:22:32.602
As I said to you before, you know, our strapline is fuck the chaos.
365
00:22:33.183 --> 00:22:35.524
And there's a running joke that I am the chaos.
366
00:22:36.525 --> 00:22:38.106
But, you know, it's because I don't...
367
00:22:38.946 --> 00:22:40.687
I like to keep stuff continually improving.
368
00:22:41.207 --> 00:22:48.390
And if I don't see how long do you leave something to test it that it is working, before you go, it's not working, and you change it.
369
00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:54.252
I think I sometimes think I can see it, but essentially going to go down the pan sooner.
370
00:22:54.412 --> 00:22:55.473
So that's why I'm quicker.
371
00:22:55.513 --> 00:22:57.774
And maybe others don't see it as soon.
372
00:22:59.014 --> 00:23:05.357
But then because I think as a position that I'm in, you see more of the numbers, you see the bigger picture, right?
373
00:23:05.777 --> 00:23:07.718
That's quite hard to get across to the team sometimes as well.
374
00:23:07.998 --> 00:23:15.260
Yeah, I think that is a... Like, it's a super skill in itself.
375
00:23:15.721 --> 00:23:26.564
Like, the observation bit that you've got and the experience that you've developed of seeing experiments go one way, and, like, ultimately, as we grow and scale businesses, they're all, like, little experiments.
376
00:23:26.584 --> 00:23:27.885
There's petri dishes everywhere.
377
00:23:28.365 --> 00:23:31.646
And you're like, that one's going off, that one's growing really nicely, et cetera.
378
00:23:32.386 --> 00:23:34.527
The ability to bring...
379
00:23:35.487 --> 00:23:50.599
your team up briefly to that level to say hey come and look over over the horizon with me we actually need to go left a bit yeah yeah is is like it's a really tricky balance isn't it yeah and again and as I said how long do you because you got you got your gut right and
380
00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:54.081
There's going off data and there's going off your gut.
381
00:23:54.101 --> 00:23:55.622
And I'm more of a gut person.
382
00:23:56.562 --> 00:23:57.103
But I do.
383
00:23:57.763 --> 00:24:11.549
But now, I mean, I built a business app about two weeks ago, just pulling in HubSpot, Maxio, which is a subscription management system, Xero and a few other platforms and tools that we use.
384
00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:15.131
Just built a software app overlay and just gives me everything now.
385
00:24:15.731 --> 00:24:19.515
now I've got access to data, I'm all like, oh, I'm a data person now.
386
00:24:19.635 --> 00:24:21.477
And I was like, guys, have you seen this?
387
00:24:21.497 --> 00:24:26.602
There's evidence to show people that this is happening, this is transit on there.
388
00:24:27.443 --> 00:24:36.171
But this is still a – I think a lot of that stuff, though, when you talk about gut, is your experiences that have been bought into that.
389
00:24:36.211 --> 00:24:40.055
It's not just a thing that flies into your head and goes, oh, I don't think that's right.
390
00:24:40.635 --> 00:24:43.656
It's, have you read the book, The Gift of Fear?
391
00:24:44.016 --> 00:24:44.196
No.
392
00:24:44.696 --> 00:24:45.436
Really good book.
393
00:24:45.476 --> 00:24:48.897
So it starts off with, I'm digressing a little bit here.
394
00:24:48.917 --> 00:24:49.257
No, go ahead.
395
00:24:49.277 --> 00:24:56.399
Yeah, it starts with a woman, you know, she's going back into her flats where she lives, carrying some shopping.
396
00:24:56.899 --> 00:24:59.780
There's a guy on the bus that sort of got on the bus at the same time with her.
397
00:25:00.300 --> 00:25:02.241
He's then got off the bus at the same time with her.
398
00:25:02.441 --> 00:25:04.801
And it's like, oh, he's not from here usually.
399
00:25:04.941 --> 00:25:05.822
That's a bit different.
400
00:25:06.042 --> 00:25:06.302
Like...
401
00:25:07.082 --> 00:25:08.163
There's a bit of a warning sign there.
402
00:25:08.183 --> 00:25:12.767
But she ignores it because society tells you to ignore warning signs and everyone's fine.
403
00:25:13.467 --> 00:25:17.911
Carries on walking a little bit further, goes into the apartment block and he follows her in there.
404
00:25:18.292 --> 00:25:20.594
He's like, she's like, oh, that's a bit odd.
405
00:25:21.034 --> 00:25:24.717
Then he offers to grab her bags and say, oh, I can take them out to your room for you.
406
00:25:24.757 --> 00:25:26.338
And she was like, no, no, no, it's fine.
407
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:32.863
Probably at that point she's had three warning signs and probably needed to have made some distance.
408
00:25:33.664 --> 00:25:35.505
But she doesn't, and he carries on following her.
409
00:25:35.545 --> 00:25:44.731
So he follows her into the lift, gets in the lift with her, goes upstairs to the room with her, and then he's trying to open the door for her.
410
00:25:45.051 --> 00:25:52.817
And all of these warning signs, you know, it's been about nine or ten, and she's just blocking them out because she's going, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong.
411
00:25:54.037 --> 00:25:57.639
She goes in there and then obviously he tries to attack her.
412
00:25:57.739 --> 00:25:58.659
She manages to get away.
413
00:25:58.739 --> 00:26:02.621
Luckily, that last final warning sign was something wrong here and got away from it.
414
00:26:03.161 --> 00:26:04.122
That's how the book starts.
415
00:26:04.302 --> 00:26:09.484
It's all about these warning signs and that's ultimately what your gut is built up of, of experiences.
416
00:26:10.184 --> 00:26:13.527
And my business isn't quite as intense as that.
417
00:26:13.888 --> 00:26:14.829
It is the same thing, right?
418
00:26:14.849 --> 00:26:20.615
You have warning signs or seeing signals again of, oh, that happened to me before or that happened to another business there before.
419
00:26:21.015 --> 00:26:23.938
It's all these shared experiences that give you that gut feeling.
420
00:26:24.018 --> 00:26:25.520
So, yeah, I...
421
00:26:28.217 --> 00:26:29.418
I think it's so important.
422
00:26:29.518 --> 00:26:41.883
I think that what you've just shared there, like what we translate as like gut instinct is past experiences and run through our internal algorithm of like, was that positive or was that negative?
423
00:26:43.064 --> 00:26:44.384
And so I think,
424
00:26:45.625 --> 00:27:11.017
gut instinct when people have a similar like they have they have experience of similar reps and tenure etc that's when i think you get really good speed to quality decision making yeah because you're like hang on a minute your body physiologically you know there's a hormone released you experience a physiology that says hang on a minute i've been in this situation or something like this before um this is good or this is bad um
425
00:27:11.797 --> 00:27:16.538
And then that then massively influences our decision making and our activity.
426
00:27:17.438 --> 00:27:22.479
The challenge I have with gut instinct is that we are terrible keepers of the truth.
427
00:27:23.419 --> 00:27:35.842
And so we then will avoid our gut, similar to the story, because we we don't want maybe to face up the socially awkward situation of telling the person actually no stop, go away.
428
00:27:42.163 --> 00:28:04.997
is when you get leaders who have they've got the earned experience their gut is often quite often right yeah but when it's wrong it's really wrong and it's expensive often with like senior hires etc with more junior team leaders managers etc them relying on that gut there's not as many reps with self-reflection and feedback so actually it's much rarer yeah and
429
00:28:05.457 --> 00:28:14.361
And so your experience of building an application with data that gives you a dashboard that helps correlate whether your gut is on or off, I think is super important.
430
00:28:14.641 --> 00:28:16.362
Yeah, and that's it, it's trying to do both, right?
431
00:28:16.382 --> 00:28:21.765
I think, you know, sometimes decisions need to be made fast and you've got to go with all of that consuming knowledge.
432
00:28:21.805 --> 00:28:26.287
And it's funny you say algorithms, we now assess reasoning of models in algorithms.
433
00:28:26.427 --> 00:28:45.286
AI and we look at that but I don't think anyone ever looked at how people did reasoning in themselves before and now that's what you're doing when you're making these decisions you're reasoning to yourself of going oh is that right how is my reasoning process on there and you know I think in that sense you know your juniors who just said there
434
00:28:46.507 --> 00:29:14.029
their reasoning process isn't had as much experience behind it so then their reasoning is fairly shallow but they won't want to commit to that reasoning because they don't have the belief behind it um whereas i think senior people as you said will go fall in because they go yeah i've got that belief system behind it but if you can match that with the data then best of both worlds really yeah exactly and that that takes us super nicely onto your score great not yet not yet josh um
435
00:29:14.749 --> 00:29:16.110
In a second, we're going to do a little drum roll.
436
00:29:16.210 --> 00:29:24.474
But actually, whether this score is high or low, actually what this provides is a feedback loop for you right now on your gut.
437
00:29:24.494 --> 00:29:29.377
So when you've finished, you're like, oh, I'm not sure actually if that was the one for me.
438
00:29:29.577 --> 00:29:32.699
So this provides that lovely self-reflection feedback loop moment.
439
00:29:33.219 --> 00:29:36.061
And that's the beauty of Ethereum.
440
00:29:36.161 --> 00:29:40.163
We're like a little kind of nano plug there that actually just provides that feedback loop.
441
00:29:40.623 --> 00:29:41.644
To be like, am I...
442
00:29:42.424 --> 00:29:44.627
Am I leading as effectively as I possibly should be?
443
00:29:44.847 --> 00:29:45.368
Yeah.
444
00:29:45.508 --> 00:29:46.970
Does it correlate or is there something different?
445
00:29:47.310 --> 00:29:47.891
Yeah.
446
00:29:47.911 --> 00:29:49.573
So let's, should we go for it?
447
00:29:50.314 --> 00:29:52.056
Okay, let's have a look.
448
00:29:58.274 --> 00:30:17.465
45 45 45 Okay So you're going to want another go aren't you Probably yeah Probably Conviction 55 The diplomat So the diplomat That's interesting I don't think I've ever been called a diplomat Diplomat Yeah But if we think about How you answered it So If we look at What was that?
449
00:30:17.805 --> 00:30:25.830
The shit sandwich Yeah yeah So you drew the money card And we talked about those four areas And when we look at The diplomat
450
00:30:27.271 --> 00:30:34.456
I think your answer was quite balanced around, balanced around, we need to think about the board.
451
00:30:34.756 --> 00:30:41.501
You measured a lot of different variables as you were talking about it, rather than going, that's the answer.
452
00:30:42.222 --> 00:30:51.048
And so actually, I think there was quite, the trade-off articulation bit is that, can I identify what are the variables?
453
00:30:51.269 --> 00:30:51.489
Yeah.
454
00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:53.751
And what happens if and or?
455
00:30:55.523 --> 00:30:56.184
But yeah, what do you think?
456
00:30:56.565 --> 00:30:58.048
Do you know, I like The Watch Out, actually.
457
00:30:58.368 --> 00:31:04.919
I think out of all of that, really to kind of wrap that up and where it would have been stronger probably was...
458
00:31:06.294 --> 00:31:14.198
I think it's good to be diplomatic in that sense because you're juggling, if you've got the board involved, you know, rash decisions will probably end you in trouble.
459
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:22.323
So diplomatic approach is probably the right one, but being concise with finalising, well, this is what needs to happen.
460
00:31:22.503 --> 00:31:27.426
So do that diplomatic approach, then go, yeah, we now need to do this and the execution part.
461
00:31:27.686 --> 00:31:31.368
I think that's what's getting at there is a bit of, you know, um,
462
00:31:33.047 --> 00:31:38.251
trying to find out rather than do that stuff, then wrap up with a, this is what we're going to do.
463
00:31:39.252 --> 00:31:39.432
Yeah.
464
00:31:39.652 --> 00:31:39.973
I like it.
465
00:31:40.333 --> 00:31:40.553
Yeah.
466
00:31:40.653 --> 00:31:44.677
So I think it was that, it's that, you know, it says fill the five minutes.
467
00:31:44.717 --> 00:31:45.117
Very nice.
468
00:31:45.157 --> 00:31:47.999
It's actually, and I think that was the, you had like 90 seconds left.
469
00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:48.139
Yeah.
470
00:31:48.820 --> 00:31:51.682
And I think, I think the, the operator density bit.
471
00:31:51.702 --> 00:31:53.124
I was going to say, what is that part?
472
00:31:53.164 --> 00:31:53.304
Yeah.
473
00:31:53.324 --> 00:31:54.204
Is that the depth?
474
00:31:54.224 --> 00:31:54.465
Yeah.
475
00:31:54.705 --> 00:31:55.305
That's the right.
476
00:31:55.325 --> 00:31:55.926
This is my plan.
477
00:31:56.206 --> 00:31:56.867
Yeah.
478
00:31:57.307 --> 00:32:01.810
So it's then about like, right, OK, so the plan is we're going to do this.
479
00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:06.593
And you talked about I think one of the bits that would have really pushed your score up.
480
00:32:06.613 --> 00:32:08.694
You talked about maybe like two minutes afterwards.
481
00:32:08.854 --> 00:32:09.054
Yeah.
482
00:32:09.375 --> 00:32:11.376
Which was like, is it the right people?
483
00:32:11.616 --> 00:32:11.796
Yeah.
484
00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:13.497
The right people with the right plan.
485
00:32:13.677 --> 00:32:14.658
Would I make a change?
486
00:32:14.878 --> 00:32:19.921
Like, is there a talent there of actually if we've missed the number?
487
00:32:21.022 --> 00:32:25.566
So there's going to be something around, like, was our deal process right?
488
00:32:25.867 --> 00:32:35.696
Like, actually, in terms of what you talked about, pipeline, the operator density bit is going into that density of, right, where's the mechanics of the problem and what's going to be my checklist of actions?
489
00:32:36.757 --> 00:32:39.140
I'll be back for number two and I'll be in the 90s.
490
00:32:39.301 --> 00:32:39.521
Yeah?
491
00:32:40.082 --> 00:32:41.163
Yeah, you've got to pick the same card.
492
00:32:41.183 --> 00:32:42.465
That's it now, yeah.
493
00:32:42.645 --> 00:32:45.088
But yeah, look, Oli, thank you so much for coming on.
494
00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:48.453
You're definitely welcome back for series two.
495
00:32:48.653 --> 00:32:50.215
Yeah, sure.
496
00:32:50.535 --> 00:32:52.878
But yeah, thank you very much for coming on The Humor Loop.
497
00:32:52.898 --> 00:32:53.459
Great to have us on.
498
00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:54.300
Cheers.
