A Passion for People and Family Law with Frances Irving

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Unknown: Tune in for series five
of the hip talks, a podcast
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Caroline McNally: Hello and
welcome to this podcast series.
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I'm Caroline McNally, and I'm
the head of the family law team
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at Hugill & Ip Solicitors. I'm
delighted to be joined by
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barrister Frances Irving of Des
Voeux Chambers. Welcome Francis
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Frances Irving: Thank you,
Caroline, thank you for asking
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me.
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Caroline McNally: Francis and I
have worked together on many
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cases over the last 10 years,
which we're going to talk about.
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But let's start at the beginning
of your career Francis, because
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something that we have in common
is that we haven't had
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conventional career paths. And
although I believe that your
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father wanted you to be a
lawyer, you took a different
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path. Can you tell me about
that?
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Frances Irving: Well, I think
probably lots of teenagers who
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are told by their fathers they
should be doing something will
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decide to do the exact opposite.
And I was probably one of those
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teenagers, but I suppose it was
because as a child, I was
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considered to be quite
argumentative, but I was a third
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of three sisters, so that was my
job, to be argumentative. And at
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university, I did a general
degree of all sorts of different
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arts things, and then went on to
train a social work, which I was
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studying for three years after,
after my university degree, and
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then continued to work in social
work in Edinburgh before I came
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to Hong Kong. So it was some
years later that whatever dad
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had said to me back in the day
had begun to take root, I
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suppose, and I ended up with a
second career.
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Unknown: So
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Caroline McNally: So do you
think your father was ahead of
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the time because there were
there were, there many female
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lawyers at that time.
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Frances Irving: As far as I was
aware as a child growing up, and
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it was a small Scottish town,
the lawyers, the accountants,
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the doctors, they were all men.
My dad had ambitions for all of
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us, me and my sisters, to be
professionals. So in that
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extent, to that extent, he was
ahead of the curve. But I
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suspect probably he wanted a
lawyer in the family, because he
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got free legal advice and an
accountant, because he'd have
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free accountancy. And at one
point he had his eyes on the
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butcher son, I think, to provide
his business with with cut price
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produce. But he was an ambitious
person himself, and my both of
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my sisters had inherited that, I
think my older sister is still
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running her own business in
London. The other one runs a
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business with her husband. So we
all, none of us, are shy of
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working, if I can put you that
way.
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Caroline McNally: And you
certainly seem to have a sense
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of adventure in your family,
because I know that in 1975 you
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moved to Hong Kong with your
husband, Terry, which must have
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been a very big adventure back
then. Had you ever even been to
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Hong Kong before?
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Frances Irving: I had not, but
he had. He had worked here some
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years before, and it was just
literally an adventure, two and
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a half year adventure. And Hong
Kong had never seemed to me a
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strange place, because my mum
was here straight after the war
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with a with an armor unit, and
she'd always spoken about it. So
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it was something that was part
of our our storytelling when we
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were when we were growing up. So
when we were coming for two and
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a half years, that seems like a
grand plan. We rented a flat,
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our flat in Scotland, told my
job I was coming back and off we
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came to Hong Kong, never to
return. Actually, it's a
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familiar story. It is a very
familiar story, particularly of
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that era when my husband came
out to work in a role with the
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government, and it was a two and
a half year contract rolled over
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every two and a half years. And
the first tour that we were
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here, our children were born,
and then we became a family in
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Hong Kong, and that sort of
seemed it. We never, never even
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discussed going back. Hong Kong
is now home, and you've been
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here nearly 50 years. Next year
will be 50 years. Yes, obviously
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it's somewhere you've got a
great affection for. It's it's
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home, you know. And people ask,
What's it like to live there?
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And I say, Well, probably the
same as it's like living in
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Edinburgh, but the weather's
nicer. And it's a great city,
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the great people, the Hong Kong
people, it's a good place to
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live, and you have that same
experience, yeah.
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Caroline McNally: And I often
wonder what would have happened
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had my parents not moved to Hong
Kong for their two years.
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Frances Irving: Of course. And I
wonder the same thing, would we
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be in the suburbs of Edinburgh
now, as opposed to living in a
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fabulous city like Hong Kong.
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Caroline McNally: I mean, I
think that I probably would not
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have been a lawyer.
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Frances Irving: Oh, do you think
that's interesting? Why that?
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Caroline McNally: Because I
don't think that the
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opportunities would have come
their way in the way they have.
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Frances Irving: May I agree with
you, I wouldn't be I'm quite
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sure I would have continued to
be a social worker, which was a
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great job. I would have
continued to do that in
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Edinburgh, probably, and I
suppose, diversified a bit
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within that profession, but I
doubt very much I'd have gone
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into law. I don't know it was an
opportunity that arose here,
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because I was working as a
social worker in Hong Kong. Had
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been in doing my job for 15-16,
years in adoption for the social
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welfare department, and I saw an
advertisement in the paper for a
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law course at the university,
Hong Kong University, and I
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thought, I think I'll do that
because the kids were older,
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they didn't need me weekend.
This was a weekend course that I
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could do while I was working. So
I did it just really out of
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interest.
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Caroline McNally: But you
weren't planning at that stage,
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were you to actually become a
barrister?
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Frances Irving: I was not. I was
not at all. I was planning just
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to do something away from
husband, children, dog, house at
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weekends, doing something
different on my own for a
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change, one evening a week and
one afternoon a weekend. And it
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suddenly evolved, really, to to
now.
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Caroline McNally: Yeah, I was
going to ask you what what
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changed. But was it something
that just was organic and it
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just evolved?
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Frances Irving: To an extent?
Yes, but this was in the I did
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my law training in the mid 90s.
I was working for the government
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at that time, and it was a great
job. I loved my job as social
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welfare, but there was a great
push for localization. And I can
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see that although I loved that
job and I'd been doing it for a
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long time, Social Welfare
couldn't use me anywhere else,
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only adoption within lots of
English speaking clients, they
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couldn't put me in probation, in
family training, Family
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Services. So I could understand
that they would kind of look at
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my position and think maybe we
should have somebody Chinese in
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that job. I can quite get that.
And that sort of coincided with
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I'd passed the bar exams in
London, which, of course, in
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those days you had to qualify as
a Barrister in London.
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Caroline McNally: I saw that on
your CV. Actually, I couldn't
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quite understand that, if you
were living in Hong Kong, why
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you were qualified in England
and Wales.
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Frances Irving: There was no
route in Hong Kong to qualify as
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a barrister. You had to sit the
bar exams in England and be
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admitted in England and then be
admitted in Hong Kong later. And
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so I think any barristers older
than me and of my era, should I
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Caroline McNally: And it was
that at Des Voeux Chambers,
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say, in Hong Kong, will have
gone that route. They'll have
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qualified in London and then
returned to Hong Kong. So I had
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done that again, because it was
interesting to do. But I
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continued to work for another
year in social welfare after
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that. And then it was time to do
something different. And I
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thought, well, I've got this
qualification. I've been
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admitted in London. Let's try
it. Let's give it a go. It was a
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leap of faith. It was a leap of
faith, but quite a big leap at
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that time, because you give up a
paying job, you take on a place
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in chambers that you start
paying for straight away. So
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you're paying rent for chambers.
You're paying chambers expenses.
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You've got no income from your
work because you don't go work
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straight away, and you've given
up a salary. So it was a leap of
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faith, but sometimes you just
have to take them.
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you've been there through your
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Frances Irving: I was very
fortunate. I did pupillage in
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Des Voeux Chambers with Mairead
Rattigan, now Mairead Rattigan
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SC, and did a criminal pupillage
with Michael Poll, who's no
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longer in practice in Hong Kong.
It was David Pilbara, who's a
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family barrister. And then I
returned to Des Voeux as a as a
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squatter. I didn't have a room
there, but I sort of hung around
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until they got so sick of seeing
me, they thought they might as
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well give me a room, I think is
what happened, and I've been
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there ever since. So it's really
been my my home as a barrister,
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and you imagine, have had
mentors there which have helped.
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Oh, very much. So, I mean, I
mentioned Mairead, who, if you
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ask her, will tell you that she
was horrified to have me as a
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pupil because I was older than
she was, and she told me much
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later that she'd complained
bitterly that she had to have
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me. But actually, she's been,
it's been fantastic to be in the
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same Chambers as her, and it's
also good to have somebody we
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often work against each other,
and that's quite constructive,
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because we can try to smooth off
the rough edges of some of the
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cases.
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Caroline McNally: And so as a
pupil, you would have gone into
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court and had watched
barriesters, for sure, advocacy.
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And you learn that way.
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Frances Irving: That actually
that's the way, that's the
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traditional way of doing it. I
mean, I think nowadays, there's
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far more advocacy training
within the training of being a
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barrister than it was back in my
day. I mean, when I was admitted
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in London, I'd never been into
court. You sit the exams, then
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you're admitted. That's it.
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Caroline McNally: I find that
terrifying. And I must have
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thought your first time when you
go into court on your own.
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Frances Irving: Yeah, you
wouldn't be allowed to do that
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till you done pupillage. But in
England, you were admitted in
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through, through your inner
court. You admitted as a
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barrister, then you do your
pupilage. Then I suppose it's
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when you're supposed to start,
you know, learning what you're
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supposed to learn. But also in
Des Voeux, I was quite fortunate
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in that people who were doing
different kinds of cases would
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kind of take me long to court
with them. So I saw a range of
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stuff, not just family stuff. So
that was very, very interesting.
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And of course, these are very
skilled people been doing this
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job for a long time, and they're
very good, good, but scary to
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watch, because you think, oh my
God, will I, you know, will I be
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Caroline McNally: Well, I'm
going to come to the topic of
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able to do that.
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the differences between
barristers and solicitors. But,
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but what do you think really
makes a very good advocate?
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Frances Irving: If I say
preparation, that's, that's, I
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think, terribly important,
because you have to be on top of
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your papers, whether it's two
files or 20 files. You need to
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know what's in your files. So
preparation, and of course, you
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have to understand the case, the
law, I suppose, commitment to
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the case you've got. And also, I
think you have to be realistic
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if you've got a bad case,
really, you have to be saying to
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your client, well, I know this
is what you want, but
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realistically, are you going to
achieve that? And that can
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sometimes be, I think the
hardest role is having people
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accept the limitations of what a
court can do, because you may
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have a very frustrated husband
or wife complaining about the
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other party. Think I just want
the judge to make the order.
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Well, okay, judge can make the
order, but that is not going to
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change the personality of the
person you're dealing with. If
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it's a difficult and obstinate
other parent, they're likely to
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remain difficult and obstinate,
and a court order will give you
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a framework that will give you
some protection, but this is
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person you have to deal with
realistically over your children
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until your children are 20-21-25
whatever it might be. So I think
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you have to assist your clients
in being realistic as to what
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they can expect from the
outcome, because give people
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aspirational views of something
that simply can't be achieved. I
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don't think that helps anybody.
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Caroline McNally: We've both
heard various judges use the
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expression, I haven't got a
magic wand.
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Frances Irving: I haven't got a
magic wand. Exactly. And it's,
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it's, it's, for absolutely sure,
and that's, it's a nowadays, I
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find judges say that first off,
the day you go into court the
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very first time. Do you know
what this is going to cost if
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you keep fighting? Do you know
how it's going to harm your
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children? And I haven't got a
magic wand, and all of those
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Caroline McNally: And so you've
had a very long career at the
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things are true.
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bar, and I've instructed you on
many occasions, and have seen
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you in court, and you are a very
formidable advocate,
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undoubtedly, but what actually I
think sets you apart in your
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approach is I've also seen you
be incredibly kind to clients.
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And so why do you think that's
an important quality in a
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barrister?
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Frances Irving: When you meet
people as a solicitor or a
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barrister for the first time,
particularly, I think as a
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barrister, because solicitor,
you could meet people who got
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quite straightforward matters as
well as very complex and so some
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people you see can be dealt with
quite efficiently and quickly,
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and this will take longer. By
the time people come to me,
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they've had a very difficult
road. And actually, I was
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thinking about this a few days
ago. Do you know the first line
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of Anna Karenina, "All happy
families are the same, but all
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unhappy families are different
in a different way".
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So there's always something
different. Every every, every
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client you meet, there's
something different about them,
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about their case. But they're
all at a crisis in their lives.
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It's always something it might
be the children. That's, of
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course, the most critical money
divorce. The divorce is the the
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end of your expectation of your
future. It's a massive thing to
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happen to people, and they're at
a crisis, and I think they do
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sometimes need people just to
say to them, that's okay. Well,
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tell me about it, and we will.
We can understand it, then let's
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see what we can do about it.
Maybe that comes from having a
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social work background, because
I've been accustomed over the
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years to dealing with people in
crisis in their lives, and so
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this is kind of a continuation
of that. Obviously, the role is
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entirely different, but it's, I
think it's important to be kind
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to people in any walk of life.
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Caroline McNally: I think one of
the things that perhaps people
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don't appreciate about a divorce
situation is the crisis that
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people are going through. And
how perhaps they can't recollect
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things the same. And we talk, we
hear clients talk quite a lot
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about the truth. And of course,
they have their truth, of
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course, and their spouse will
have their own truth. And one of
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the phrases, which I really
like, and I think applies to
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family law, is that the late
Queen who says "recollections
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may vary"...
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Frances Irving: Yes, yes,
exactly yes. And that's, I think
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that's absolutely right.
Everyone's got their own truth.
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And things that are perfectly
acceptable in a together family,
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even though there might be a
little bit quirky, are the kind
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of things that are raked up in a
divorce. And I think of that my
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daughter told me about her her
husband, who was taking one of
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my grandchildren to the beach,
and he'd forgotten to take a
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towel, but he had taken a hat,
and he didn't have this, but he
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had taken that, and they came
back sort of tired and sandy
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after a couple of hours on the
beach having had a lovely day.
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And so she was kind of laughing
at his inefficiency. Forgive me,
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Tim for saying that, but she
said if she wanted to divorce
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him, she'd be citing that as
evidence of his carelessness, of
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his negligence as a parent, yet
when they're together, so it's
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He's a lovely daddy who wants
time with his child.
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Caroline McNally: Certainly,
people come through the divorce
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process with a different lens,
and they do tend to, I feel
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fine, probably because it's a
time of crisis, to look at
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things through a very negative
lens. Yes, and I think part of
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00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:25,400
our job is to remind them about
the past, the at the time, where
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there was a positive lens, and
they would have seen things
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00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:30,800
exactly the same things
happening, but they would have
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00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,080
viewed it positive in a positive
lens exactly.
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Frances Irving: I mean, I was in
court the other day when a very
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wise judge said to the my client
and the other the other client
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on the other side, parenting is
difficult. Nobody can say
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parenting is easy, and even if
you're together as a family,
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there can be lots of
disagreements, whether it's
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about health care, should the
child be vaccinated or not?
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Education, religion, all of your
things can be different is
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within an intact family. So you
have to solve them. You have to
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solve them one way or another,
whether you're together as a
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family or you're separated. But
when you're separated as a
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family, then it becomes a legal
battle, and that's when it
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becomes you've seen it. We've
seen it together. It can become
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extremely ugly.
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00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:22,290
Caroline McNally: It can and the
professionals involved can be
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00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:23,250
partly responsible for...
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Frances Irving: Oh, for sure,
for certain, sure. I mean, which
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comes back to the point I was
making or trying to make
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earlier, that having the having
reasonable expectations is, I
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think, very important for the
clients. And if they're told you
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can achieve the sun, moon and
the stars when clearly they
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can't, and it makes it actually
impossible to come to the
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negotiating table or to
mediation or to any dispute
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resolution, because they've got
completely unrealistic
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expectations, which may well
have been engendered by the
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advice they've been given.
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Caroline McNally: I mean, I know
clients have been very grateful
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for me in doing what they call
throwing a bucket of cold water
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over them.
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00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,030
Frances Irving: And I've seen
you do it, and it's an important
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00:18:07,030 --> 00:18:09,190
thing to do, to say to somebody,
well, I know we're going to
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court next week, and you want
this, that the next thing, but
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you're not going to get it.
Let's we'll do this meantime.
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This will be our goal. This will
be our timeline. We'll work for
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00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:21,490
this, but you ain't going to get
it next week, no matter how much
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you want to which means when you
go to court next week and they
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don't get what they want,
they're prepared for it. It's
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not a massive rush of
disappointment, because what
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they expected isn't happening.
Being realistic in your
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expectations, I think, is
tremendously important.
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Caroline McNally: And I think
another thing about
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communication is it so important
and making sure the parties are
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able to communicate early, I
think, and so early mediation is
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something that I do push for.
But also the communication
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between the solicitors involved
can have a huge effect. And I
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think it's helpful for people to
understand, really, how the
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00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:05,410
court views a more aggressive
style of communication.
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00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,150
Frances Irving: Yes, yes,
indeed. Again, this is something
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00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:11,210
I've come across recently where
a judge gave a very stern
357
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warning to one of the solicitors
involved, saying, if the turn of
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00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:19,400
the communication continued, the
way had been going, steps would
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00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,070
be taken, including costs orders
made against the solicitor
360
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personally... solicitors,
barristers, all of us are there
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00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:30,980
to try to facilitate and bring
about. We have an obligation to
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00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:34,100
do this the right outcome for
children. In these matters.
363
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,000
We're not there to fight to win,
and if you're fighting a corner,
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that's really doesn't bring
about the right outcome for a
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00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,830
child, and you know it's not the
right outcome for the child,
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then I think you have to sit
back very carefully and wonder
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about what you're doing and why
you're doing it. It's not about
368
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:55,040
winning for lawyers, it's about
ensuring that the best
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arrangements are made for these
children. And I think everybody
370
00:19:57,650 --> 00:20:00,200
in the courtroom has an
obligation to try and bring that
371
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about.
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Caroline McNally: I mean, the
whole concept of winning and
373
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losing in family law seems quite
foreign to me.
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Unknown: I
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Frances Irving: I know it does,
because that's not the approach
376
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you take. And I've sat with you
many times where you have a
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client who's got, you know,
there might be some difficulty
378
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in the case, and you own the
problem. You don't say, No, this
379
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:23,660
isn't a problem. Let's pretend
it's not there. You say, Okay,
380
00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:26,570
we've got this problem, so how
do we deal with the problem? And
381
00:20:26,570 --> 00:20:29,750
then we can move on, and you
have to do that. That's the only
382
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:30,950
responsible approach.
383
00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:32,660
Caroline McNally: Yeah, I do
think that our role as
384
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professionals is to get the
family through the period of
385
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,720
crisis that they're going
through and set them on a
386
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,250
positive road for the future.
Yes, rather than throwing in the
387
00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:44,900
bomb and then washing your hands
of it...
388
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,880
Frances Irving: And leaving
people to deal with the
389
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,870
aftermath. I mean, I bumped into
a woman at some drinks event
390
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:54,170
recently who'd been a client of
mine years before, and I had
391
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:58,640
remembered her case, but I
wouldn't have picked her out of
392
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,590
a crowd, if I could put it that
way. And she came and spoke to
393
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:02,840
me. It was really nice to speak
to speak to her, and she said
394
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,210
that she and her husband have
got such an ex husband got such
395
00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:08,510
a good relationship. He's in a
new relationship. She went round
396
00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:12,290
to meet the new partner and the
baby, her children, their
397
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:15,950
children go back and forth
between the two homes, and said,
398
00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:21,230
it's just it's worked. There was
grief at the beginning, but they
399
00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:24,230
worked their way through that,
and now they have this grown up,
400
00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:27,980
proper relationship that their
own children can see them
401
00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:32,510
having. How much better is that
than kids who are scared to tell
402
00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:35,090
their mum they had a good time
with dad, or scared to tell
403
00:21:35,090 --> 00:21:39,680
their dad mum's got a boyfriend?
You know it's, it's, you can see
404
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,460
the damage it does...
405
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:40,780
Unknown: to you
406
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:44,120
Caroline McNally: Absolutely
with I mean, I think that is the
407
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:47,600
sort of Nirvana, shall we say,
of what families might want to
408
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,630
look like. One thing I see is
perhaps people being a bit
409
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:53,450
unrealistic about how long that
takes and how much work you have
410
00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:57,530
to do to get there. And in this
case, I'm talking to you, but it
411
00:21:57,530 --> 00:22:01,160
took some years. Yeah, you know,
people are hurt, bad things are
412
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,600
said, which is why, again,
settle your case early on, and
413
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,450
the bad things don't get said,
the complaints as grumbles. But
414
00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:11,180
once you start firing
affidavits, and again, the
415
00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:14,540
judges will say this, once
you've sat in a witness box and
416
00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:19,250
been cross examined by your
husband or wife barrister, you
417
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:21,050
will never want to speak to him
or her again.
418
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:25,500
Yes. I mean, I think that people
don't really appreciate that
419
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:29,430
things get worse. Oh, and we
spend a lot of time telling our
420
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:31,050
clients that things are going to
get worse...
421
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,240
Frances Irving: And emotionally
worse and financially worse.
422
00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:37,840
This is not a cheap business. To
take a case through court is a
423
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,230
very expensive thing, but the
damage it does to you, and it
424
00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:43,720
brings your children into it.
They have to be interviewed by a
425
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,840
social welfare officer.
Sometimes they meet the judge.
426
00:22:47,380 --> 00:22:51,400
Usually that's to be fair.
That's if they asked to or if
427
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:53,590
the social welfare officer will
ask, do you want to meet the
428
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:58,660
judge? And they might say yes,
um, maybe that's a cathartic
429
00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:01,210
thing for them, because at least
they've they could, the children
430
00:23:01,210 --> 00:23:03,850
can feel they've been hurt,
which I think is probably
431
00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:08,590
important for them, but we'll
see the damage it does and the
432
00:23:08,590 --> 00:23:13,840
hurt it causes. And kids who are
confused and mixed up so early
433
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,410
mediation, you know, we've got
loads of very good mediators in
434
00:23:17,410 --> 00:23:19,870
town, send them off to
mediation.
435
00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:22,300
Caroline McNally: I mean, I
think that time is a healer. I
436
00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:27,100
think that is, it's just true.
But if you're using your time as
437
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,400
you go away from the separation,
and you're in litigation, you're
438
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,900
not healing during that period.
439
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,290
Frances Irving: And we've all
got cases where, you know, five
440
00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:39,160
years down the line, six years
down the line, people are still
441
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,040
fighting. The children are I've
got one case. The children are
442
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,120
now in their 20s, and they're
still still, they're well beyond
443
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:49,300
any orders being made, but
they're still fighting going on
444
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:54,670
between the parents.Really, that
that's that's not because of of
445
00:23:54,850 --> 00:23:58,390
that's just because of
psychological enmeshment. They
446
00:23:58,390 --> 00:24:01,330
can't cut the cord and separate
from each other, there's
447
00:24:01,330 --> 00:24:04,030
something that draws them into
the fight... negative intimacy
448
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:08,440
,I believe it's called, yeah,
it's that, how can that be
449
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,770
healthy for anybody not getting
on with your life?
450
00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:15,370
Caroline McNally: So during your
career you might have, you will
451
00:24:15,370 --> 00:24:18,160
have noticed a lot of changes,
particularly in relation to
452
00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:20,950
children cases. And one of the
reasons for that might be,
453
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:23,800
because the roles that people
are playing in children's lives
454
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,540
have have changed during that
period.
455
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,343
Frances Irving: I think that's
right now. I noticed that even
456
00:24:28,418 --> 00:24:32,282
walking down the street
nowadays, I've been here for
457
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:47,770
One of the issues I think we see
where conflict occurs in
458
00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:36,443
almost 50 years, and you'd
seldom see a father out with
459
00:24:36,518 --> 00:24:40,753
children on their own, with
little children, with babies.
460
00:24:40,828 --> 00:24:45,286
Nowadays it's very common dads
with the babies in the little
461
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,968
front carriers papoosse on their
own, or taking the toddler by
462
00:24:50,042 --> 00:24:54,872
the hand. So I think fathers are
playing this is just observation
463
00:24:54,946 --> 00:24:59,479
on the street and but seeing
family friends and these fathers
464
00:24:57,910 --> 00:26:16,390
children cases is that as a
family, there's been a dynamic
465
00:24:59,554 --> 00:25:03,492
seem to play a lot greater role
in in bringing up the
466
00:25:03,566 --> 00:25:07,951
children.And my it used to be
called your dad's babysitting
467
00:25:08,025 --> 00:25:12,632
the children. And as one of my
nieces says to her mother, he's
468
00:25:12,707 --> 00:25:17,165
not babysitting, he's parenting.
And that's true, but that's
469
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,550
that's and women expect that
this is not my baby, it's our
470
00:25:21,624 --> 00:25:25,711
baby, and we bring them up
together. Dads enjoy it once
471
00:25:25,785 --> 00:25:30,244
they realize it's not just a job
for women. But I think also
472
00:25:30,318 --> 00:25:34,702
that's reflected very much in
the social welfare reports we
473
00:25:34,777 --> 00:25:39,310
see the used to be cildren to be
with mum. That's kind of the
474
00:25:39,384 --> 00:25:43,991
belief in the community, and it
was very often reflected in, I
475
00:25:44,065 --> 00:25:48,598
think, some of the professional
reports that the normal thing
476
00:25:48,673 --> 00:25:53,503
would be for children to be with
the mother, and the report would
477
00:25:53,577 --> 00:25:57,887
reflect what was happening at
home, but also, if you like,
478
00:25:57,961 --> 00:26:02,494
almost societal expectations.
But I think, I think the social
479
00:26:02,569 --> 00:26:07,250
welfare reports we see now are
much better than they were, much
480
00:26:07,325 --> 00:26:11,486
more thoughtful, much more
analysis going into them, and
481
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,796
much more recognition of the
importance of fathers in the
482
00:26:15,870 --> 00:26:20,626
lives of and particularly young
children, not just, not just the
483
00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:19,090
in the family, and it may well
be they've taken parents have
484
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:22,030
taken on particular roles, but
that's when they're living under
485
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:25,159
1011, year olds who can speak up
for themselves, but for the
486
00:26:22,030 --> 00:26:24,670
the same roof, and that can
change, because when you're
487
00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:27,670
living separately, people step
up, they take on a different
488
00:26:25,233 --> 00:26:29,469
little children. And I think
that's new, and I think it's
489
00:26:27,670 --> 00:26:28,060
role.
490
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,920
And it does cause conflict. It
does cause conflict, and it's
491
00:26:29,543 --> 00:26:31,030
very, very positive.
492
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,170
almost like, and I've referred
to this before to clients like
493
00:26:35,170 --> 00:26:39,070
the Super Dad thing, that the
dad who never before would be
494
00:26:39,070 --> 00:26:41,170
taking the kids to school or
picking them up or taking them
495
00:26:41,170 --> 00:26:42,730
up or taking them into
activities suddenly, is doing
496
00:26:42,730 --> 00:26:46,210
it, and the mother will say
that's only because he wants to
497
00:26:46,210 --> 00:26:49,720
look good in the eyes of the
court. And you know that may be
498
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,750
right initially, that may be
right. But on the other hand,
499
00:26:53,290 --> 00:26:56,440
your child now has a father
who's involved. Is that not a
500
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,100
benefit? That's a good thing. So
maybe having a super dad is a
501
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:01,330
good thing for the kids.
502
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,730
Caroline McNally: I think the
difficulty with that is that
503
00:27:03,730 --> 00:27:06,400
probably the pattern before is
that one of the parties made a
504
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,310
lot of the decisions, and now
they're having to make these
505
00:27:09,310 --> 00:27:13,090
decisions jointly, and they
haven't actually had the skill
506
00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:16,090
set to do that at a time where
things were looked through the
507
00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:18,550
positive lens that we talked
about exactly right.
508
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,220
Frances Irving: They haven't
developed the ability to do
509
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:22,650
that. So the person who's always
who's used to making those
510
00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:26,850
decisions, when I'd be saying he
typically, he is interfering
511
00:27:27,180 --> 00:27:30,900
with my management of the
children I I've the one who've
512
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,540
done all of I've always sorted
the ECAs. I've done all of this,
513
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:36,630
and now I can't because he's
messing with the timetable and
514
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,990
makes life more difficult part
of the learning curve. I think
515
00:27:40,290 --> 00:27:42,030
you have to learn to parent
separately...
516
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:42,760
Unknown: and
517
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:43,800
Caroline McNally: And you also
have to learn to have a
518
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,100
different relationship with
somebody who you had been in a
519
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:50,550
romantic relationship with, for
sure, but now is a co parent.
520
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:51,760
Unknown: and
521
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:54,440
Frances Irving: And you have to
reluctant, as some people are,
522
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:58,880
give some credence to the views
of somebody else. You know, the
523
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,960
kids might be better with tennis
rather than football. They may
524
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,650
prefer to go swimming rather
than fencing, or whatever it
525
00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:12,470
might be. If you're used to
holding the reins of authority
526
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:16,640
or power with in respect of the
arrangements for the children,
527
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,260
it's quite difficult to let that
go, both in terms of letting go
528
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:23,840
and also acknowledging that
somebody else's views might
529
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,490
actually be as worthy as your
own.
530
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,490
Caroline McNally: So we've
talked about some changes in the
531
00:28:27,490 --> 00:28:30,580
law in relation to children. But
actually I reminded myself
532
00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:33,790
again, when I was looking at
your profile on that debate on
533
00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:38,110
chambers website that you were
part of the team in probably the
534
00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:43,300
most well known family case in
Hong Kong, which is LKW and DD,
535
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:47,860
which, for those people who
don't know it was Hong Kong's
536
00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:52,030
case that changed the law in
relation to financial remedies
537
00:28:52,150 --> 00:28:57,520
and effectively put in place the
starting point of 50-50, and I
538
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,000
remember as a four year
qualified solicitor in London,
539
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:04,840
when White and White, the
judgment in that case was
540
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,940
delivered, and it was just a
seismic shift in the law. And
541
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:11,650
Hong Kong had to wait 10 years.
542
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,390
Frances Irving: Had to wait
until there was a case that
543
00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:20,000
would this new approach could be
applied to. Because previously,
544
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,360
as you know, the approach was
that no matter how much money
545
00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:26,750
the typically was in the hands
of the husband, even if it had
546
00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:30,410
been a joint endeavor to accrue
those assets, if they were in
547
00:29:30,410 --> 00:29:33,770
the husband's name, the wife
would only be entitled to what
548
00:29:33,770 --> 00:29:38,030
she reasonably required. She
wouldn't be entitled to a share
549
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:41,510
in the assets accrued by the
husband unless, of course, she
550
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:44,030
was a legal owner of them. I
mean, the reasonable
551
00:29:44,030 --> 00:29:46,670
requirements in a wealthy family
might have meant, you know, two
552
00:29:46,670 --> 00:29:51,140
houses under a set of stables,
because that was reasonable in
553
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:54,710
terms of the of the standard
living the parties had, but he
554
00:29:54,740 --> 00:29:57,650
all, all the surplus was kept by
the husband. And as you
555
00:29:57,650 --> 00:29:59,720
mentioned, the White case,
that's when the court said,
556
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,620
well, that actually the proper
thing is to split things equally
557
00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:07,580
between parties, unless there's
a good reason not to, and
558
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:12,920
thenHong Kong lagged a long way,
as you say, 10 years behind. And
559
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,990
the judges did try to approach
financial cases in a sort of
560
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:21,620
equal sharing arrangement as
best they possibly could, but
561
00:30:21,620 --> 00:30:24,320
there needed to be a proper Hong
Kong case in the court of final
562
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:31,220
appeal. And DD LKW was, was the
case, and it wasn't a big money
563
00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:35,270
case. I think the assets were no
more than 5 million, and the
564
00:30:35,270 --> 00:30:38,090
parties were both representing
themselves at first instance,
565
00:30:38,090 --> 00:30:44,210
and then the court of the Court
of Appeal. So the word went out
566
00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:47,270
within the profession that these
people need to be properly
567
00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:50,330
represented, the legal arguments
need to be presented to the
568
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:56,300
court of final appeal. So can we
put together teams to represent
569
00:30:56,330 --> 00:30:59,780
both of the parties? And I was
one of the teams in that in that
570
00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:03,530
case, on one of the teams,
should I say? And it was
571
00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:07,760
interesting, because we looked
at the law in many different
572
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,090
jurisdictions. I mean, in fact,
the court, Court of Final Aapeal
573
00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:14,120
was very ready to say, yes, of
course, we're going to adopt but
574
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,670
they had to write the judgment,
and they needed to be given the
575
00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:22,160
ammunition and the research to
to assist in writing the
576
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,990
judgment, but yes, and since
that time, how often do we refer
577
00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:30,800
to LKW? I mean in every single
financial case...
578
00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:32,990
Caroline McNally: And it is a
judgment that has absolutely
579
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,200
stood the test of time, because
when you reread it, it's so well
580
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:36,530
written.
581
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:39,560
Frances Irving: It is extremely
well written, and it draws on
582
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,640
all the important, judgments
from other jurisdictions. And
583
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,540
essentially says, Yes, things
should be 50-50, unless you can
584
00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:50,720
persuade the court it shouldn't.
And you might persuade the court
585
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,050
it shouldn't be because, well, I
inherited this from these assets
586
00:31:54,050 --> 00:31:56,780
from my grandmother. I had them
before I was married. They
587
00:31:56,780 --> 00:31:59,630
weren't accrued through the
marriage. And it's all there.
588
00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:02,510
Everything you need is in that
judgment, which is why, as you
589
00:32:02,510 --> 00:32:08,480
say, stood the test of time, and
week after week, day after day,
590
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:11,510
it's referred to in the in the
in financial cases in the
591
00:32:11,510 --> 00:32:11,990
courts.
592
00:32:13,070 --> 00:32:14,330
Caroline McNally: So I'm going
to move on now, and we're going
593
00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:17,240
to talk about the differences
between solicitors and
594
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,840
barristers, because I do think
that there is a lot of a lot of
595
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:23,480
a lack of information out there,
particularly because different
596
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,140
jurisdictions have different
systems. And I can well imagine
597
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:32,150
clients wondering why they have
to have both of us involved in
598
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:32,600
the case.
599
00:32:32,780 --> 00:32:33,260
Unknown: Yes, and
600
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:36,530
Frances Irving: Yes, and people
ask the whole time, why can't I
601
00:32:36,530 --> 00:32:38,960
come straight to you? Or why do
I need to come to you at all?
602
00:32:39,170 --> 00:32:43,520
That would be the two sort of
questions. Well, of course, the
603
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:49,220
as a solicitor, you're the first
port of call. The client comes
604
00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:52,970
through your door with the
story, the problem, the issue,
605
00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,080
and you'll then mold the case.
You'll be the one who really
606
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:07,550
works out the strategy, how you
should be, what needs to be
607
00:33:07,550 --> 00:33:11,510
done, first steps, what needs to
be done, and can it be achieved
608
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:17,780
through the through the initial
stages as a solicitor, or do you
609
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:21,800
need to have somebody to who'll
go into court for you barrister
610
00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:25,160
to do the kind of stand up and
arguing kind of part of it.
611
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,710
Caroline McNally: I think that's
one of the main differences,
612
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:29,860
isn't it? It's the skill set,
because as a solicitor, we spend
613
00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:32,950
a lot of our time with the
client, doing the paperwork,
614
00:33:32,980 --> 00:33:37,630
yes, but we don't necessarily
spend a lot of time advocating
615
00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:41,560
on our feet, and it is a skill
that you need to learn and own,
616
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,020
and that is what you do every
day.
617
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,970
Frances Irving: Well, that's
right. And as you say, you
618
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:54,410
you're the one who molds the
case, a strategy of it but I
619
00:33:54,410 --> 00:33:57,740
think it sometimes comes to the
point too, when, when you're,
620
00:33:57,830 --> 00:34:00,350
when you've been, when you've
been in the case of some time,
621
00:34:00,350 --> 00:34:04,190
and realize that it's likely to
go to a proper fight, and you
622
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:07,310
want a barrister to be involved,
then I have always found it
623
00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:12,500
very, very helpful in practice,
if the solicitor is somebody
624
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,310
like you and I will do but you
sit in a room with a client say,
625
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:19,550
Okay, well, let's discuss what
we need to do here. So it's not
626
00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:22,820
just a here's a set of papers
with an argument, with an
627
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:26,540
affidavit. Go to court and argue
it is let's work out how
628
00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:28,880
collectively we think this case
should be presented to the
629
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:29,330
court.
630
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:29,720
Unknown: think
631
00:34:29,660 --> 00:34:31,130
Caroline McNally: I think that
might be one of the differences
632
00:34:31,130 --> 00:34:35,750
between a client instructing a
specialist family solicitor,
633
00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:39,530
because when we work with
barristers, we work very much in
634
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:43,220
a team, and we collaborate
together, whereas I might be
635
00:34:43,220 --> 00:34:45,950
wrong, but I think that
apparently if a client goes to a
636
00:34:45,950 --> 00:34:50,780
solicitor who's more a General
Practice practitioner, they
637
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:54,050
won't necessarily be very hands
on in a family case.
638
00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:56,570
Frances Irving: I think that's
very true, which is why I say
639
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:59,840
it's really helpful to be able
to sit down with with the team.
640
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,890
With solicitor, client, and you
know, and anybody else on your
641
00:35:03,890 --> 00:35:09,560
team who's who's involved and
and work out how we progress, as
642
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,880
opposed to somebody who doesn't
know the approach of a family
643
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,850
court, has no experience with
that and doesn't have much to
644
00:35:16,850 --> 00:35:22,670
offer in terms of how, what can
we expect from the court outcome
645
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:26,900
that kind of, that kind of
collaborative discussion can't
646
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:30,290
take place. It did kind of
essentially hand the case over
647
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:33,290
to the barrister, as opposed to
say to the barrister, will you
648
00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:34,220
become one of our team?
649
00:35:34,370 --> 00:35:36,740
Caroline McNally: Yeah. I mean,
we definitely work well
650
00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:40,250
together, collaborating, working
out strategy for our clients,
651
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:44,000
and a lot of things are judgment
calls, and so we discuss those
652
00:35:44,210 --> 00:35:47,360
with the client for sure work
out the best approach.
653
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,090
Frances Irving: And you know,
it's lots of these things. Are
654
00:35:50,090 --> 00:35:54,920
no right and wrong. It's most
things in life. There's no right
655
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,140
and wrong. It's just chew it
over and see what feels right
656
00:35:57,710 --> 00:36:01,250
within the context of the
experience of the of the client,
657
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:07,370
and what the client, what they
wish the family set up, and it
658
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:12,950
chew it over and see what, see
what feels, what is going to be
659
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:16,400
the right, what we think is
going to be the best outcome in
660
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:17,150
the end of the day.
661
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:20,150
Caroline McNally: I've had
clients who've asked me whether
662
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:24,260
I would do their trial. And
frankly, that question sort of
663
00:36:24,260 --> 00:36:28,460
fills me with dread, but I think
it also probably highlights that
664
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,200
perhaps clients don't understand
the amount of work that goes in
665
00:36:33,350 --> 00:36:36,170
and also the skill that is
required to do an effective
666
00:36:36,170 --> 00:36:39,170
cross examination, which I would
put my hand up and say, I just
667
00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:40,310
don't have that experience.
668
00:36:40,450 --> 00:36:43,600
Frances Irving: I think it would
be tremendously difficult for a
669
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,860
busy solicitor like you to set
aside the time to prepare for a
670
00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:52,120
trial, for a four, five day
trial. I mean, I would certainly
671
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:57,160
expect to have at least the week
before the trial completely set
672
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,960
aside and the weekend before the
trial, and, of course, lots of
673
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,270
time before that as well,
because you've already probably
674
00:37:04,270 --> 00:37:07,330
been involved in earlier court
hearings and looking at
675
00:37:07,390 --> 00:37:10,570
documents and affidavits and
court reports and that kind of
676
00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:17,770
thing. It's absolutely full
time, 24/7, for the whole time
677
00:37:17,770 --> 00:37:22,870
you're in court and for the time
before. So it's in in terms of
678
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:25,750
time commitment, because that
will be the only case I'm
679
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:28,570
involved in for that time, you
will have other clients who want
680
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:30,970
your attention. They want to
come through your door, have a
681
00:37:30,970 --> 00:37:34,630
meeting with you. You'll have
other other things to prepare
682
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:37,720
for different cases to go to
court. I won't have that for
683
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:38,140
that time.
684
00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:38,240
Unknown: I
685
00:37:39,310 --> 00:37:41,050
Caroline McNally: I mean, time
is one of them. But also it's
686
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:45,490
just skill. I've seen you cross
examine in court, and it really
687
00:37:45,490 --> 00:37:46,720
is something to behold.
688
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:47,200
Unknown: Well,
689
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,030
Frances Irving: Well, that's
very kind of you to say we must
690
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:54,970
have been there on a good day.
It's, it's, this comes back to
691
00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:57,640
something you asked in the
beginning, and it's about
692
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,550
knowing your papers. I think
that's got an awful lot to do
693
00:38:00,550 --> 00:38:07,540
with it, because if you do know
your papers, then you know you
694
00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:10,300
can think on your feet. You're
not scrambling around trying to
695
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:14,980
find out what what the responses
on me should be. Or maybe it
696
00:38:14,980 --> 00:38:18,790
comes back to dad, I was saying
I was argumentative for the
697
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:26,800
cross examination point. Yes, I
don't know. I'm quite sure if
698
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,760
you if you wanted to do it, you
could, well, again, it's a skill
699
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,310
that you can learn. Of course. I
think that's right, that's
700
00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:37,420
right, yeah, and you practice
it, and you hone the skill, and
701
00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:42,760
you realize what you did wrong.
And I remember years ago talking
702
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,570
to a London silk who was out
here helping on one of my cases,
703
00:38:47,980 --> 00:38:51,040
and somebody said to me, when
you leave court, do you still
704
00:38:51,310 --> 00:38:54,340
he's very, very experienced guy.
When you leave court after your
705
00:38:54,340 --> 00:38:56,710
trials, do you still worry about
what you did through the day?
706
00:38:56,710 --> 00:38:59,440
Said, of course, I do. I'd go
home and I think about it, you
707
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,900
know, for ages, because that's
how you learn, that's how you
708
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:05,020
get better. What did I do wrong?
What did I do right? What should
709
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:08,920
I have done? Should I have said
that or not said that? And I
710
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,540
think all the barristers I know
that do my kind of work will
711
00:39:13,540 --> 00:39:15,550
tell you they wake up in the
middle of night haunted by
712
00:39:15,550 --> 00:39:17,770
something that happened in
court, thinking, Oh my God,
713
00:39:17,950 --> 00:39:21,220
should I have said this? Should
I not have said that? It's just
714
00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:24,940
it goes with the territory, I
think. And if it doesn't, if
715
00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:28,630
you're not thinking that at the
end of the day, that seems to me
716
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:29,500
to be a bit unusual.
717
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:30,620
Unknown: They
718
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:32,920
Caroline McNally: They don't
talk about adrenaline and saying
719
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,110
about, you know, healthy
adrenaline is what you need,
720
00:39:35,140 --> 00:39:37,030
because if you don't have any
adrenaline, that's when you
721
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:37,630
should worry.
722
00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:39,910
Frances Irving: Oh, I think that
must be right. I mean, it's
723
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:46,000
scary every time. Does anybody
not have adrenaline? I don't
724
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,830
know. Do you ever see it?
725
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:48,640
Unknown: Well, it's
726
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:50,590
Caroline McNally: Well, it's
difficult to tell, isn't it,
727
00:39:50,590 --> 00:39:53,950
because professionals doing
their job, they look very
728
00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:58,840
composed. Yes, sometimes the
feet are going very fast under
729
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,230
the water.
730
00:39:59,800 --> 00:39:59,860
Unknown: I.
731
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,530
Frances Irving: I suppose, like
the yes, what is it the swan or
732
00:40:02,530 --> 00:40:05,050
the duck looking calm above come
above water, and the future
733
00:40:05,050 --> 00:40:07,510
paddling? Yeah, I think maybe,
maybe exactly that.
734
00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:10,690
Caroline McNally: So you've been
involved in too many cases to
735
00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:13,750
remember, I would imagine, but
there must be some cases that
736
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:14,830
have left their mark on you.
737
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,980
Frances Irving: Yes, yes. Some,
there are some, some I remember,
738
00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:21,830
kind of with a smile, and some
with respect for the people
739
00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:26,480
involved, most of the latter, of
course, what I remember that
740
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,670
always makes me smile and
slightly chuckle when I think
741
00:40:28,670 --> 00:40:32,720
about it was when we had an
interpreter in court, and the
742
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,440
one of the clients the other
party, kept on interfering and
743
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,900
interrupting the interpreter
because he wanted the
744
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:45,410
interpretation to be more in
favor of his case. He didn't
745
00:40:45,410 --> 00:40:47,810
like the answer that the witness
was giving, and was trying to
746
00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:50,360
reinterpret it for the
interpreter. So there ended up
747
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,750
being a screaming match between
the interpreter and the other
748
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:57,620
party, and unbeknownst to either
of them, the judge spoke the
749
00:40:57,620 --> 00:41:02,480
language in question. It ended
up being a complete circus on a
750
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,560
Friday afternoon. And that was
one that I think of as just a
751
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:11,630
like a bizarre happening, but in
terms of cases that kind of
752
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:18,890
stick with me as things that I
remember one case in particular
753
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:24,110
where a little girl of she must
have been five or six. Her
754
00:41:24,110 --> 00:41:28,970
father was trying to make her
say that the mother abused her,
755
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,650
and it was a very domineering
father. Gosh, she was
756
00:41:33,650 --> 00:41:37,340
domineering... people, the kids
were scared of him, but this
757
00:41:37,340 --> 00:41:39,950
little girl, the siblings, were
different. They were still a bit
758
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:44,060
scared of him, but this little
girl said resolutely to anybody
759
00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:47,870
who would listen to her, my
mummy doesn't hurt me. He keeps
760
00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:50,990
telling me to say that she does,
but my mummy doesn't hurt me.
761
00:41:51,830 --> 00:41:55,700
And I think now, man, what
courage that child had that took
762
00:41:55,700 --> 00:42:02,150
a lot. He was a big guy. He was
loud voice, scary. And I think
763
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:07,610
of that little girl now she's
must be 20, what respect to be
764
00:42:07,610 --> 00:42:12,680
able to stand up and do that.
But I think of other cases too,
765
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,320
where kids have been
sufficiently cowed by either by
766
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,790
a parent who wants to ensure
they have no relationship with
767
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:26,150
the other parent or by a
domineering parent, that they
768
00:42:27,020 --> 00:42:30,680
will be kids. We know it. We
said, as we started off talking,
769
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:35,360
damage for life. By the way the
litigation, the damage has been
770
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,320
done to them during the
litigation. And it's that's
771
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:45,470
tremendously sad. But I look
back on a lot of of the cases of
772
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,020
the work I've done and people
I've worked with, actually
773
00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:55,130
generally speaking with respect
for their resilience, and I
774
00:42:55,130 --> 00:42:59,810
hope, I hope that most of them
not because of my efforts,
775
00:42:59,810 --> 00:43:03,830
because of their own. I most of
them kind of come through and
776
00:43:03,830 --> 00:43:08,030
think... Well, that's in the
past, and I'm now, I'm now
777
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:11,810
moving forward, because we know
the old rule, a happy life is
778
00:43:11,810 --> 00:43:12,770
the best revenge.
779
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,830
Caroline McNally: Absolutely, I
do say that to my clients. Yes,
780
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:20,000
we find clients very, very
focused on their spouse and a
781
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,910
lot of the time, you know. And a
rule of litigation is focus on
782
00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:25,580
your own case and focus on
yourself and your own well
783
00:43:25,580 --> 00:43:26,300
being, yes.
784
00:43:26,810 --> 00:43:31,160
Frances Irving: And as I say
that, there was a client came in
785
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,880
to see me, an old client should
be, it must be, more than 10
786
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,840
years ago, now, living in
America, and she came back to
787
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,360
Hong Kong to visit one of her
children. Was living here, and
788
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,430
she just dropped I was in
chambers, and I got a call to
789
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:48,260
say this woman was in reception,
and she'd been a woman who'd had
790
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:52,400
a very domineering husband who'd
sworn that he would never give
791
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,270
her a penny. And indeed he'd
after she left Hong Kong, he
792
00:43:56,270 --> 00:43:58,850
didn't she got some assets out
of him, but she never, ever,
793
00:43:58,850 --> 00:44:02,990
ever got paid any maintenance.
So she went back to where she
794
00:44:02,990 --> 00:44:05,300
came from, she went to
university, she got a degree,
795
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:11,150
she got a job, she bought a
house, she was happy, and she
796
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:16,400
was a perfect example of living
a happy life is a best revenge.
797
00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:21,740
She just said, I'll look after
me. I can't I'm not going to
798
00:44:21,740 --> 00:44:27,200
spend my days fighting him,
going through courts. I look
799
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,380
after myself. And it was great
for her to do it, because she
800
00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:33,320
never had been able to do that
in the past. I thought it was
801
00:44:33,380 --> 00:44:35,030
fantastic. I was very proud of
her.
802
00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:36,260
Unknown: I'm
803
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,850
Caroline McNally: Now I'm going
to ask you a difficult question.
804
00:44:37,850 --> 00:44:40,610
Then, right, when you look at
your own career, what are you
805
00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:41,840
most proud of in your career?
806
00:44:44,660 --> 00:44:46,340
Frances Irving: Can I say
survival? Is that the right
807
00:44:46,340 --> 00:44:53,000
answer? Resilience? Yes,
resilience. I'm pleased that I
808
00:44:53,150 --> 00:44:59,660
enjoy what I do and that I'm
still doing it. And funnily
809
00:44:59,660 --> 00:45:02,000
enough, you're started off
asking about, you know, my
810
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,790
father, having thought I should
be a lawyer when I was younger,
811
00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:09,530
I think he'd be proud. I think
he'd be pleased. Mum certainly
812
00:45:09,530 --> 00:45:17,600
was. I suppose I'm proud to
still be standing, still be
813
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:18,020
doing it.
814
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:20,600
Caroline McNally: You certainly
have a curiosity for it.
815
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,040
Otherwise you wouldn't be doing
it.
816
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:26,690
Frances Irving: I think you have
to have, if you, if you, if it
817
00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:29,480
doesn't matter. I mean, I think
if you're working with ships or
818
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,150
with companies, I mean, it's all
very interesting and academic
819
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:36,560
and intellectual, do you really
care? Obviously, you care about
820
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,900
the outcome, because it's your
profession, and you have a
821
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:42,020
professional obligation to do,
obviously, do your best, and
822
00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:44,690
people want to do their best in
that, but you actually care
823
00:45:44,690 --> 00:45:49,280
about the ship. Probably not so
much. But that, I think, in our
824
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,240
work, and you have exactly the
same thing, you know, solicitor
825
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,940
or barrister makes no
difference. You really have to
826
00:45:55,940 --> 00:46:00,800
care about the outcome. It's
not, it's not a paper exercise
827
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:04,220
because of people at the end of
it, which is partly why lots of
828
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,610
people in my chambers, people
who do commercial work, would
829
00:46:07,610 --> 00:46:11,450
say, Do not ask me to do a
family case. I'm not. I'm I went
830
00:46:11,450 --> 00:46:14,630
to family court once. I'm never
going in again. It was terrible.
831
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:18,650
People were crying. I'm not
doing it. You've got to be
832
00:46:18,650 --> 00:46:24,200
prepared to deal with that, and
to think, Well, yeah, it
833
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,110
matters. It does matter, and you
care about the outcome.
834
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,620
Unknown: So looking at the
younger generation of family
835
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:34,700
lawyers, one of the concerns I
have is we do see people leaving
836
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,340
the profession because, in
actual fact, it is a difficult
837
00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:41,260
job, and you do need a lot of
resilience for it. But in a law
838
00:46:41,260 --> 00:46:45,580
firm, the younger solicitors are
part of a team, and they can be
839
00:46:45,580 --> 00:46:48,460
mentored and they can be
supported. But it might be quite
840
00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:49,900
lonely as a junior
841
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:56,030
Frances Irving: I think that
could be right. Des Voeux
842
00:46:56,030 --> 00:46:59,180
Chambers is now very, very big.
We've got, I think, 100 members.
843
00:46:59,180 --> 00:47:04,730
I mean, to my shame, I don't
know a lot of them, but I think
844
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:10,700
there's quite a lot of support,
kind of collegiate or support,
845
00:47:10,940 --> 00:47:14,540
among the younger end of the
members of chambers, but not
846
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:22,520
many of them are family lawyers.
I think it's certainly,
847
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:34,430
certainly true that you do need
to have some kind of support the
848
00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:39,980
right word, I suppose, I suppose
it must be for community, yeah,
849
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,980
well, yes. And of course, as a
barrister, you can get that from
850
00:47:42,980 --> 00:47:45,920
your solicitor, because you're
working with a solicitor very
851
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,670
closely over these cases. You've
got the same goal, you've got
852
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:52,940
same ambition for the case. You
know the same glitches with it,
853
00:47:52,940 --> 00:47:57,110
you know the same issues or
problems that might be cropping
854
00:47:57,110 --> 00:48:03,590
up so to that extent, yes, but
some, some of the cases and the
855
00:48:03,590 --> 00:48:07,850
outcomes and the things that
happen are pretty miserable,
856
00:48:08,420 --> 00:48:13,250
miserable and unhappy, and that
could be very hard to deal with.
857
00:48:13,250 --> 00:48:17,780
So I have been talks to the
Family Law Association here from
858
00:48:17,780 --> 00:48:21,080
people who, and I think
particularly those, some woman
859
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,110
from London, and also at a
conference I attended in London,
860
00:48:24,110 --> 00:48:28,760
saying all people doing this
kind of work should have a very,
861
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:32,660
very secure and structured
support network. It may be that
862
00:48:32,660 --> 00:48:36,170
you have somebody you go and
talk to once a week, once a
863
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:40,490
month about your work, somebody
who can with whom really, you
864
00:48:40,490 --> 00:48:43,970
can let off some steam, to an
extent. I have that in chambers.
865
00:48:43,970 --> 00:48:47,210
I've got people who do my kind
of work in chambers, and we can
866
00:48:47,210 --> 00:48:51,230
have a good grumble after work.
More likely it would be with a
867
00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:57,590
solicitor who's involved in the
case, but it's the I quite often
868
00:48:57,590 --> 00:49:01,190
have young people in chambers
who are doing family work, and
869
00:49:01,190 --> 00:49:03,140
there aren't so many of them,
but there's some will come and
870
00:49:03,140 --> 00:49:06,350
knock on my door and want to ask
things about the case, but
871
00:49:06,350 --> 00:49:10,730
that's more like, what should I
do about this problem? As
872
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:14,510
opposed to, I've had a terrible
day, and I don't know how to how
873
00:49:14,510 --> 00:49:19,040
to get beyond it. So maybe
actually, what we should be
874
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,300
doing within chambers now that I
think about, and I've never
875
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:27,890
thought about this before, is
sort of put out some feelers to
876
00:49:27,890 --> 00:49:30,200
the, I mean, those of us who've
been doing the work for some
877
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,410
time, put out some feelers to
the younger people who are doing
878
00:49:33,650 --> 00:49:36,770
family work, and say, Okay,
would you like us to have a
879
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,280
every couple of weeks? Have a
coffee morning, you know, coffee
880
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,780
get together, or a glass of wine
on a Friday, or, you know, would
881
00:49:44,780 --> 00:49:49,070
you like us to do something, to
form some kind of group of
882
00:49:49,070 --> 00:49:51,770
interested or people interested
in this kind of work, actually,
883
00:49:51,770 --> 00:49:55,130
that that that really might be
worth doing, because we've got a
884
00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:58,070
very dynamic practice
development manager now within
885
00:49:58,070 --> 00:50:01,820
chambers, but she's great, and
think if I discussed it with
886
00:50:01,820 --> 00:50:04,670
her, she'd be exactly the kind
of person who would say, Okay,
887
00:50:04,670 --> 00:50:07,010
well, let's, let's put out some
feelers and see if there's
888
00:50:07,010 --> 00:50:09,110
interest for that, because I
think that would be really
889
00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:11,750
worthwhile doing. Actually, I've
never thought about it before.
890
00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:13,700
Caroline McNally: I mean, I
think definitely the profession
891
00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:17,600
has changed. When I started out,
it was very much stiff upper
892
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,350
lip, and you just had to cope,
and it's difficult work, and I
893
00:50:21,350 --> 00:50:25,730
feel it's moved on now, and I
don't think you just have to be
894
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,740
a robot and cope with these
sorts of things.
895
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:29,610
Frances Irving: No, I think
that. I think that's absolutely
896
00:50:29,610 --> 00:50:37,980
right. I mean, it's yeah,
exactly what you say we should,
897
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:43,500
rather than have people just
come and randomly knock on your
898
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:46,860
door and say, can ask you about
this if there was something
899
00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:50,610
like, I say, you know, right? Of
course, everybody's busy or out
900
00:50:50,610 --> 00:50:52,860
of court through zero, but
whatever, half past five and a
901
00:50:52,860 --> 00:50:56,580
Thursday, let's get together and
and have half an hour together.
902
00:50:56,580 --> 00:50:58,950
I think that might be really
worthwhile doing. It is
903
00:50:58,950 --> 00:51:02,940
stressful work. It is stressful
because this what happens in
904
00:51:02,940 --> 00:51:05,850
these courtrooms, changes
people's lives. It changes their
905
00:51:05,850 --> 00:51:08,160
relationship with their
children. It changes their
906
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,950
financial outlook. It changes
their expectation for the
907
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:14,310
future. And they have already
lost what they expected to be
908
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:17,250
their future. The marriage is
gone. They're sharing their
909
00:51:17,250 --> 00:51:19,350
children, as opposed to living
with their children full time.
910
00:51:19,620 --> 00:51:22,740
They don't have the financial
resources they had before all of
911
00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:26,910
these things have changed, and
it's enormous for them, huge for
912
00:51:26,910 --> 00:51:31,800
them, and inevitably, has a
knock on effect on the people
913
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,570
who are working with them, in
terms of, if it's a bad outcome
914
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:41,790
and an outcome you had hoped not
to happen, it can be pretty
915
00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:45,570
depressing, actually. And we've
all had days of leaving court
916
00:51:45,570 --> 00:51:49,530
thinking, Oh my God, that's, you
know, I don't want to talk about
917
00:51:49,530 --> 00:51:51,510
this ever again. This is the
last time I've talked about this
918
00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:53,820
case. You know, the kind of
feeling that you've just.
919
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,160
Caroline McNally: Well, that's
one of the things that we do say
920
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,850
to our clients, is that to avoid
those types of situations, to
921
00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:04,530
control the process. Don't leave
it in the hands of a judge and
922
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,180
try to find alternative dispute
resolution, methods of resolving
923
00:52:09,180 --> 00:52:09,810
their disputes.
924
00:52:09,930 --> 00:52:12,510
Frances Irving: And of course,
as judges will say time and time
925
00:52:12,510 --> 00:52:16,800
again, if you mediate and you
reach an outcome you can live
926
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,860
with, at least you control that
outcome. If a judge decides
927
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,810
you've got no control, you might
get what you want, but you might
928
00:52:27,810 --> 00:52:30,750
get nothing that you want. At
least with mediation, you can,
929
00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:33,690
it's bit like in the market. You
can bargain. I'll give you this
930
00:52:33,690 --> 00:52:37,380
if you give me that. And we can
that. We can cooperate in this
931
00:52:37,380 --> 00:52:42,660
way. And so it will be something
you can live with.
932
00:52:43,170 --> 00:52:46,500
Caroline McNally: I mean, I've
been really taken by times we've
933
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:49,470
been in court, and we might have
quite big legal teams on either
934
00:52:49,470 --> 00:52:53,610
side, and so there's a lot of
legal brains in court, and then
935
00:52:53,610 --> 00:52:56,220
the judge will say something
that nobody in the courtroom
936
00:52:56,250 --> 00:53:00,090
thought of or expected. And so
you're out of control in that
937
00:53:00,090 --> 00:53:01,020
time, yes, yes.
938
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,760
Frances Irving: I mean, for
absolutely sure that and the
939
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,650
judge will say, Well, if you
want me to decide, I'm going to
940
00:53:05,650 --> 00:53:08,470
decide something either one of
you wants, or, you know, it
941
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:10,750
might be something both of you
hate. So why don't you go
942
00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:15,040
outside and work out something
that will be manageable for both
943
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:20,680
of you, because it can often be
such a small thing the fight is
944
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,950
about, you know, will the pickup
of the child be a five o'clock
945
00:53:23,950 --> 00:53:27,940
or six o'clock on a Friday? Can
it be Tuesday rather than
946
00:53:27,940 --> 00:53:32,620
Wednesday? These are not life
changing events in the big
947
00:53:32,620 --> 00:53:35,950
picture, but in the moment for
the client, they seem like
948
00:53:35,950 --> 00:53:40,990
they're massive. Then to fight
over those things just seems to
949
00:53:40,990 --> 00:53:43,480
be destructive.
950
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:47,140
Caroline McNally: I think one of
the more difficult areas that we
951
00:53:47,140 --> 00:53:50,950
deal with, which is cases
involving relocation of
952
00:53:50,950 --> 00:53:54,430
children. I mean, they are the
very, very difficult cases. And
953
00:53:54,430 --> 00:53:57,580
I know that you've actually had
a personal experience of this
954
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:01,450
recently, because your beloved
grandchildren have left Hong
955
00:54:01,450 --> 00:54:01,750
Kong.
956
00:54:01,810 --> 00:54:04,810
Frances Irving: They have and my
daughter was unkind enough to
957
00:54:04,810 --> 00:54:07,780
leave Hong Kong, where she was
born and brought up, and take my
958
00:54:07,780 --> 00:54:11,590
grandchildren with her. She
sometimes calls me says, Do you
959
00:54:11,590 --> 00:54:14,440
want them back? Because they're
driving me mad, but they've
960
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:20,050
lived close to me for all of
their lives. But she went to
961
00:54:20,050 --> 00:54:24,130
live in England a couple of
years ago, and I was broken
962
00:54:24,130 --> 00:54:26,020
hearted for them all to go not
just a grand
963
00:54:29,620 --> 00:54:31,720
Caroline McNally: It must have
given you a view about how what
964
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:34,600
our clients go through in those
cases. I, you know, I,
965
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,690
Frances Irving: I can only say I
got the tints of it because it
966
00:54:37,690 --> 00:54:41,050
felt, it felt to me like it was
my heart broken, but they
967
00:54:41,050 --> 00:54:44,530
weren't even my children. So how
does it feel if they are your
968
00:54:44,530 --> 00:54:48,280
children, and you used to seeing
them every week, and suddenly
969
00:54:48,310 --> 00:54:58,090
they're across the world on the
other side of that? I look at
970
00:54:58,090 --> 00:55:00,490
the arrangements they now have,
and I think that it was the best
971
00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:05,050
thing for them. I mean, I, and I
even admit, admit that to my
972
00:55:05,050 --> 00:55:08,470
daughter, that you did the right
thing. Kids are happy. They're
973
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:12,430
settled. And, you know, I'm only
their grandmother. I'm not their
974
00:55:12,430 --> 00:55:16,390
mother or their father. And of
course, I'd feel, I'm sure I'd
975
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:22,450
feel differently, but I can see
that there's a it when you see
976
00:55:22,450 --> 00:55:25,450
that it's been a good move, it's
been the best thing. And this is
977
00:55:25,450 --> 00:55:28,000
what judges have to do. They
have to weigh up, is this going
978
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,150
to be the best thing for these
children? They are going to lose
979
00:55:31,180 --> 00:55:36,520
the daily or weekly contact with
the other parent, but there will
980
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,750
be the holidays. And it's always
said, well, now we can do
981
00:55:40,750 --> 00:55:43,810
FaceTime, yeah, yeah, yeah.
FaceTime is not a cuddle, is it?
982
00:55:43,870 --> 00:55:46,090
It's not a not a book at bed.
Well, it can be a book at
983
00:55:46,090 --> 00:55:48,970
bedtime. Actually, that's the
smart thing. If you say to the
984
00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:51,550
kids, can you buy this book? And
I've got this book here, we'll
985
00:55:51,550 --> 00:55:54,550
read it together. Even though
it's in FaceTime, it's better
986
00:55:54,550 --> 00:55:57,850
than nothing. It really is
better than nothing. So it's a
987
00:55:57,850 --> 00:56:03,760
very difficult, very difficult
kind of application, a very
988
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,780
difficult principle. But then,
what do you do if you've come if
989
00:56:07,780 --> 00:56:11,320
you're a lot of my clients would
would be people who've come to
990
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,980
Hong Kong because of the
marriage or the other party's
991
00:56:14,980 --> 00:56:18,730
job. Marriage breaks up. So why
am I remaining in Hong Kong just
992
00:56:18,730 --> 00:56:22,720
because of somebody else's job?
I suppose the answer to that
993
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:25,660
might be where you can go if you
want to, but the kids can't go.
994
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:30,400
It's, it's a tough one. And of
course, because Hong Kong is
995
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,070
such an international city, I
think we probably have more
996
00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:36,580
cases, a higher proportion of
relocation cases, than lots of
997
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:37,630
other places would have.
998
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:41,020
Caroline McNally: Oh, I think we
also have incidents of
999
00:56:43,210 --> 00:56:47,170
intenational marriages, yes. And
so in those cases, if the
1000
00:56:47,170 --> 00:56:50,140
relationship ends, you might
have one party who wants to go
1001
00:56:50,140 --> 00:56:52,060
to England and the other party
wants to go to New Zealand.
1002
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,670
Frances Irving: Yes. Yeah,
exactly. And there's the three
1003
00:56:54,670 --> 00:56:57,430
different places involved. You
know, American meets an English
1004
00:56:57,430 --> 00:57:02,050
person in London, and they move
to Hong Kong. So where's, the
1005
00:57:02,050 --> 00:57:10,690
family base? It's, yeah, it's
problematic. It really is. And
1006
00:57:11,170 --> 00:57:13,810
there's no perfect answer is
that, yeah, there certainly
1007
00:57:13,810 --> 00:57:21,310
isn't. And it's difficult to
know all if the relocation takes
1008
00:57:21,310 --> 00:57:26,020
place, it has to be on the basis
that the absent or the left
1009
00:57:26,020 --> 00:57:30,010
behind parent is having as much
of the holiday time as you
1010
00:57:30,010 --> 00:57:32,200
possibly can. Of course, if
you're a working parent, is
1011
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,320
difficult. You can't take three
months off, a year, necessarily,
1012
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,380
to spend time with your kids. Or
it has to be an acceptance Okay,
1013
00:57:38,380 --> 00:57:41,350
the kids will come back and see
the Hong Kong parent, and it may
1014
00:57:41,350 --> 00:57:44,980
be some of that time, they'll be
in a day camp, or they'll be
1015
00:57:44,980 --> 00:57:49,360
with a helper. You can't expect
the parent, the working parent,
1016
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:56,500
to have all of that holiday each
year. It's difficult. They're
1017
00:57:56,500 --> 00:58:01,210
really, really difficult cases,
and somebody's heart is going to
1018
00:58:01,210 --> 00:58:02,950
be broken as a result of the
outcome.
1019
00:58:04,980 --> 00:58:05,220
Unknown: One
1020
00:58:05,230 --> 00:58:08,620
Caroline McNally: One of the
things I don't really like that
1021
00:58:08,620 --> 00:58:10,900
people say about Hong Kong, but
there might be an element of
1022
00:58:10,900 --> 00:58:17,020
truth to it, is that it's the
graveyard of marriages. Maybe,
1023
00:58:17,050 --> 00:58:22,090
yeah, I think it used is it
still? Do people still say that?
1024
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:27,490
I might say that, but I think
part of it may be because Hong
1025
00:58:27,490 --> 00:58:31,270
Kong is such a international,
vibrant place. Perhaps couples
1026
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:35,230
come and then they change in
ways that are different from
1027
00:58:35,230 --> 00:58:36,370
each other, and they grow
apart...
1028
00:58:36,500 --> 00:58:36,980
Unknown: that
1029
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:42,880
Frances Irving: That could be
right graveyard of of
1030
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:48,550
international marriages. You
mean? Of, yeah, I really don't
1031
00:58:48,550 --> 00:58:53,860
know. So many of the people I
have worked with recently, there
1032
00:58:53,860 --> 00:58:56,440
might be an international
marriage, but people who both
1033
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,170
intend to remain in Hong Kong.
There's no, there's not a
1034
00:58:59,170 --> 00:59:03,010
relocation that they both intend
to be here, but the marriage has
1035
00:59:03,010 --> 00:59:05,650
broken down here because of
relocation or just because they
1036
00:59:05,650 --> 00:59:08,500
would have done anyway. I really
don't know. I don't know.
1037
00:59:08,740 --> 00:59:10,030
Caroline McNally: Well, perhaps
people are looking around the
1038
00:59:10,030 --> 00:59:12,400
rest of the world these days and
thinking there aren't
1039
00:59:12,700 --> 00:59:14,290
necessarily better places to be.
1040
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,900
Frances Irving: You'd have to
look incredibly hard to find
1041
00:59:17,900 --> 00:59:20,270
somewhere better. I mean, I
think you should look around the
1042
00:59:20,270 --> 00:59:22,400
world and be absolutely
terrified of what you can see.
1043
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,220
And think, in that case, I'm
staying in Hong Kong, I don't
1044
00:59:25,220 --> 00:59:31,640
plan to leave where looks better
at the moment, I spend my whole
1045
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,610
days being completely terrified
about what I see around the
1046
00:59:34,610 --> 00:59:37,370
world. So Hong Kong, I think, is
a fabulous place. I've always
1047
00:59:37,370 --> 00:59:40,400
loved Hong Kong. I love the Hong
Kong people. They've got a
1048
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,430
spirit, they've got a
resilience, they've got the hard
1049
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:47,630
working, they've got the I think
it's a great place to be.
1050
00:59:48,620 --> 00:59:50,450
Caroline McNally: I'm going to
wrap up now, but actually,
1051
00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:53,450
you've just sort of led me to,
perhaps the advice that you
1052
00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:56,990
would give to young family
lawyers and all of the things
1053
00:59:56,990 --> 00:59:59,240
you just said, is really what
they will need to have. They
1054
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,970
need to have resilience.
Constantly, to work hard, to
1055
01:00:01,970 --> 01:00:03,860
have a passion. I think that's
true.
1056
01:00:04,010 --> 01:00:05,360
Frances Irving: But you
mentioned earlier that you know
1057
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,090
the young people leave the
profession. I've known quite a
1058
01:00:08,090 --> 01:00:12,200
few young solicitors who've done
a few years as family solicitors
1059
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,050
and then said, I'm done with
this. I can't, I can't deal with
1060
01:00:15,050 --> 01:00:20,180
the with the unhappiness. Of
course, there are solicitors who
1061
01:00:20,180 --> 01:00:26,510
are getting it that they're the
first point port of call for for
1062
01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:31,280
the clients, so maybe, maybe
different for them. But I think
1063
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:39,110
if you have to be able to deal
with that unhappiness without
1064
01:00:39,110 --> 01:00:43,340
letting it overwhelm your life,
because I think it could, it
1065
01:00:43,340 --> 01:00:47,120
could lead you to be feel really
miserable all of the time, which
1066
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,490
is no way to live your life. And
those are the people who will
1067
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:53,300
then say, fine, I'm going off to
do I'm going in house. I'm going
1068
01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:55,880
to work for some somebody. I'm
not doing this kind of work
1069
01:00:55,880 --> 01:01:00,110
anymore. If that's how you feel,
then it's a decision to make the
1070
01:01:00,110 --> 01:01:04,520
right decision, do something
else, do something different. I
1071
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,650
think you have to care about the
outcome. And that's not coming
1072
01:01:09,650 --> 01:01:12,020
from kind of my social work
side. It's coming from the
1073
01:01:12,650 --> 01:01:16,340
realistic side. And you have to
care about people, yeah, and if
1074
01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:22,370
you didn't go work with a ship,
you know? Yeah, I think you do
1075
01:01:22,370 --> 01:01:24,230
have to, you have to care about
the people, you have to care
1076
01:01:24,230 --> 01:01:28,370
about your clients, and you have
to care about getting the the
1077
01:01:28,670 --> 01:01:29,570
best outcome.
1078
01:01:30,620 --> 01:01:31,790
Caroline McNally: Well, thank
you very much for your time.
1079
01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:33,890
I've really enjoyed our
conversation.
1080
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:34,820
Frances Irving: Thank you for
asking me.
1081
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,060
Unknown: Tune in and listen to
more episodes of the hip talks
1082
01:01:43,060 --> 01:01:48,640
podcast by checking the Insights
section@www.hugolandip.com and
1083
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,600
the dedicated channels on Apple
podcasts, Spotify, Google
1084
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,860
podcast and Stitcher, they are
also available on hugle and IPS
1085
01:01:56,860 --> 01:02:00,120
YouTube channel. You can send
comments and feedback to the
1086
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,840
email address,
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1087
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,260
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friends, family and business
1088
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associates. This podcast is for
informational purposes only. Its
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contents do not constitute legal
or professional advice. You.