Loans, Free speech

WEBVTT
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It's the Higher Education Show. MPs say students
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have been missold their loans, but as students
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demonstrate in front Number 10 North, will ministers
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actually act on it? Meanwhile, the regulator
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set out new rules on free speech, but does the
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evidence back them up? And has OFS learned its
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lessons? It's all coming up. Here we are again
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then, the Higher Education Show, your weekly
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way into this week's Higher Education News, policy
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and analysis from the team here at Wonky. I'm
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our Associate Editor, Jim Dickinson, and from
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the team, DK's here, your highlight of the week,
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DK. I've been working with the British Academy
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on a really interesting project looking at the
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wider value of the creative and humanities and
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social sciences graduate. It's been a really
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interesting set of discussions and a number of
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round tables with quite the cast of characters
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I have to say. Oh, fantastic. Mackenzie Marshall
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unofficial, one of our two unofficial number
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10 North correspondents, but also officially
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our editorial coordinator. Matt, what's been
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your highlight this week? Very simple highlight
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of the week, Jim. I've got Charlie XX tickets
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for next year. Very pleased. And from the University
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of Leeds, it's the University's Policy and Regulation,
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Pam McPherson -Barnett. Pam, your Highlight of
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the Week please. Morning, so my Highlight of
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the Week is not the fact that I dropped my 19
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year old off at university at the end of last
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week, but the text on Sunday night that said,
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no I can't talk to you tonight, I'm talking to
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my flatmates. So now I'm like, they're okay,
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they're gonna be fine. That is the correct answer,
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very good. Right, yes, let's kick off then this
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week with Student Loans. I was listening to Radio
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4 this morning, Mac, and not only were they talking
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about this demo that's been called for No. 10
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North, I note this week that Lucy Powell says
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that Student Loan Reform is still, and I quote,
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the top of her intro. I think, Jimmy, you could
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have put Radio 4 on any week for the past nine
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months, and you're talking about student loans.
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The House of Commons Treasury Committee's report
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on student loans, you know, not that long ago
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now, recently concluded that the government had
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a quote -unquote moral obligation to reverse
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that plan to threshold freeze, which was announced
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back in the budget last year. And they also concluded
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that the actions of the Fund for Education and
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the Student Loans Company in providing kind of
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prospective students with information about the
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loans were basically, and you know, they said,
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mis -selling on a few occasions. Now, good news
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is, the governments responded. They said that
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they're going to, you know, drum roll please,
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redesign the guidance and give more information
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to borrowers about, you know, how different life
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and career choices can affect their repayments.
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But everything on, you know, stopping the use
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of RPI as a way to calculate the interest rate,
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that was one of the recommendations. one of them
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was about kind of applying consumer duties to
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the student loans about revising the repayment
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thresholds all of those things remain under review
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and none of those reject all of those recommendations
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were rejected back in parliament then you've
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got education secretary lucy powell that's basically
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said you know the matter is you know at the top
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of her entry but it doesn't seem like that the
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government continues to feel that the current
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system is unfair it's in need of reform they
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keep using the word broken But she said that,
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you know, this needs to be put in the wider context
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of, you know, struggling UK public finances.
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Yes. I mean, I mean, let's, we should, let's
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help them out. Let's kick off with this bloody,
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let's kick off with the actual thing they've
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decided to do, which is, I'm not sure there's
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a better way of putting this, DK. Basically what
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they're doing is warning you that it's going
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to be unfair. Something like that. I mean, I
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think the actual warning is that they don't really
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know quite how it's going to play out. And there's
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literally no way of knowing as an 18 year old
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entering university, how much you're going to
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end up paying under what terms offer, how long.
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Because in terms of a financial product, the
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student loan system is completely weird. It is
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unlike anything else anyone will ever interface
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with. The statements that we are presented with
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at the start struggle, I think, to explain what
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is actually going on. I don't think there is
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an easy way of explaining how student loans work.
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but the government are going to have a go. So
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that's nice, isn't it? It's called a loan. We
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all know it's more a tax than a loan. But if
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you want to access higher education, you have
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got no choice unless your parents were sufficiently
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wealthy to be putting several hundred pounds
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a month away since the moment you were born on
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the assumption that you might go to university,
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you are going to have to take out loans and they
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are going to have an impact on your financial
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freedom once you get through the other side.
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So it's all very well putting it up there. And
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I mentioned Mike has just started university.
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We've been through all this. It's quite a frightening
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reading already. It's just going to be another
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line that goes, this is a debt and the terms
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under which you make payback are going to change.
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I think there were other things that they could
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do in terms of communication. post -graduation
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so that you know the Russell Group trial before
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the pandemic that kind of different way of demonstrating
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how much you're contributing and kind of putting
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the outstanding balance at the end that even
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that would be an improvement on just a line that
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says well we can make this more unfair than it
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already is at some point in the future. But I've
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got a question for you Pam right so did you say
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your daughter you dropped your daughter off?
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Yeah. Right so imagine your daughter got given
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a piece of paper and in really big letters, really
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clearly, it said, you're about to take out a
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loan. By the way, the terms of the loan may well
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change at some point when the economy hits the
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rocks. I mean, in what way is that going to make
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your daughter feel better? Doesn't that just
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mean that she's going to be furious before she's
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30 rather than when she's 30? Yeah, exactly.
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You're going to be furious earlier. If you're
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looking for an apprenticeship, they're not that
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easy to come by. There's not that many post -18
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jobs that don't require some kind of further
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training. If you know what you want to do and
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it requires a degree or you're still figuring
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out what you want to do and you think maybe an
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extra three years of education might put me in
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a better place than I am with three A levels
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that are not directly vocational. then you haven't
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got a choice. You are still going to have to
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take that loan out. Yeah. I mean, it's funny,
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isn't it? Because I think if you take it on its
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own terms, that whole... conversation in the
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select committee and the whole report really
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Mac is about is about this, you know, this idea
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that we need to, we need to empower the, you
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know, the choosing consumer. You've got literally
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no choice, have you? It's not, you've got no
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choice in fees. You haven't really got much choice
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of when you go. I mean, this is, and so really
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what we're saying to, you know, well over a million
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young people every year is not only do you have
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absolutely no choice in this, you can't predict
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how much it's going to cost. Me and Jimco, we
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often exchange random tweets that we see or random
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kind of like screenshots of various commentary
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online. And the one which keeps coming to mind
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is, you know, not that long ago when all the,
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you know, all the A -level students have been
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accepted for places, you know, I think it was
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like over 250 ,000 this year, it was a record
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number. And there was a load of discourse online,
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you know, people will have seen about like, you
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know, this is too many, what's going on? You
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know, wait until they get, you know, wait until
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they graduate and they realize there's no job
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market for them. And I saw some really interesting
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commentary from people that was like, do you
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know what, we know the debt is terrible. We know
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that this isn't, you know, this is not good.
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We don't actually need you to improve the guidance
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because the last nine months have told us that
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if anybody's kind of rolling on TikTok for goodness
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sake. But you know, this person actually said,
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you know, we know the debt's terrible, but if
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you're an 18 year old right now, and you know,
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you're in an area where there aren't a lot of
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local jobs, you can't drive, you know, you can't,
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you can't find a local job, degree apprentices
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or whatever like that aren't in reach to you.
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Your only conventional route to adulthood is
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to sacrifice all that and get the loan and you
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know, either move out or you know, take on all
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of this debt. And we know that, you know, from
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the medicine side of things, it's still not enough.
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But that's really their only choice. And a lot
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of these kind of perspective students are kind
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of just accepting that as it as is and just moving
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on. DK, you must have been following our Chancellor
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this week, prefacing the budget. I mean, you
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know, if we know one thing, we know that fixing
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the student loan system is extraordinarily expensive
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because of all the existing borrowers that have
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debt on the books. Now, you know, we could do
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a separate podcast on how that works, and it's
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probably another podcast for another day. But,
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you know, you only have to nudge the terms very,
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very slightly, and it costs billions in a year.
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And Healey hasn't got the money, has he? I mean,
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am I missing something? If you're looking for
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a large injection of funds into any part of higher
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education, you're going to be disappointed in
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the budget. The money is simply not there. I
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think because of the way we deal with higher
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education fees and budget repayments in the national
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accounts, it kind of looks worse than it is.
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It was a lovely piece on the post -18 project
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that John Blake did a while back. that said a
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lot of the reason that higher education looks
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so expensive is because of particular choices
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we've made in the way we think about it, the
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way we explain it, and the way it shows up in
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the national accounts. In recent weeks, I've
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become absolutely fascinated by a treasury concept
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called the discount rate, which John Healy has
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decided to lower. So what that does is it makes
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it look a bit cheaper to invest in things that
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have got a long -term benefit. you're going to
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build, I don't know, a large railway line between
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London and Birmingham. Or maybe extend it even
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from Birmingham to Manchester. Yeah, that would
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be quite nice, but we can tell when we get. That
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now looks a bit cheaper because the spending's
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all at the front, but the benefits show up over
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a long period of time. We're talking lifetimes,
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we're talking... Now, exactly the same thing
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is true of the state deciding to invest in having
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a graduate rather than not having a graduate.
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There is still, depending on which of the comments
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underneath wonky articles that you decide to
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read, there is still a graduate premium. The
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work I've been doing with the British Academy
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suggests that that premium is not just a salary
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premium. It's all kinds of other economic benefits
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for society, for culture, and for our civic life.
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Now, if getting those benefits looks cheaper
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because of a change to the discount rate, then
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it just makes me think that there are other ways
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we could look at the loan system. to make it
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look less like this massive amount of money,
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all of which needs to be paid back in some way
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and more like an investment in the infrastructure
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of our country, which probably needs a couple
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of graduates knocking about the place to make
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stuff work. But can I ask you, DK, because you'll
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know, right? So once you've got all the linkages
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with administrative data like Leo and where people
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are and so on and so on, presumably you can not
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prove because, you know, we're looking several
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years, several decades out, but you can You can
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start to look at, for example, that roughly 100k
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of extra franchise students, most of which got
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no A levels, most of which are mature students.
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On the one hand, they look like a widening participation
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success. On the other hand, you'd have to assume
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that someone somewhere has access to a bigger,
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more open data set that we've got. that is looking
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at that and then doing what they've done over
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the past few years, which is say, we're getting
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less money in student loan repayments than we
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thought. And that causes the treasury then to
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say, well, DFE, you got to either have fewer
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students or we're going to make student loan
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terms worse. So, you know, I've got this horrible
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feeling that once you're sat on the data and
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you're staring at the data, DFE either Does the
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unpalatable thing and says, all right, make loan
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terms worse or does the unpalatable thing and
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does student number controls? I mean, which,
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where will it go? Do you think? I mean, as you
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said, those are the two options and you can with
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Leo and with SLC data, you can actually look
00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:25.159
at this. There is a team in the FE that is able
00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:27.980
to see this. And even though all of the moves
00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:31.019
to actually better register the wild west end
00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:35.600
of franchise. provision have been ostensibly
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.899
driven reputationally that it just makes the
00:12:37.899 --> 00:12:40.879
system look bad, that we have all this actual
00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:44.720
financial fraud going on. I would not be betting
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.000
against the fact that it is also linked to, okay,
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.159
there are graduates from certain universities
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.980
that are not likely to make repayments, that
00:12:53.980 --> 00:12:56.159
are not likely to pay off their whole loans,
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.679
and that is expensive. And if we're thinking
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.759
about student funding as a structural investment,
00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:04.320
which I would argue that we should be - Some
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.600
providers, some courses, some students are better
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.539
to invest in than others. Yeah. It would look
00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:11.740
like that. But on the other hand, I mean, we
00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:14.870
need to be fair here, it's not entirely impossible
00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:17.389
that there are benefits from that thing. I mean,
00:13:17.409 --> 00:13:21.669
even if you compare having a degree from somewhere
00:13:21.669 --> 00:13:24.610
with not having a degree most of the time, there
00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:27.649
is an earnings premium, most of the time there
00:13:27.649 --> 00:13:33.210
is a less tangible but equally important benefit
00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:37.559
for the graduate and wider society in that. They
00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:39.820
have been exposed to different ideas, to different
00:13:39.820 --> 00:13:42.100
kinds of people, to different approaches, to
00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:45.139
some semblance of academic activity and critical
00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:47.559
thinking, which is probably good. It's quite
00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.759
difficult if you just look at the salary data,
00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.399
which is the temptation that Leo gives us. And
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.070
again, it's the underpinnings of the work. that
00:13:55.070 --> 00:13:56.830
the British Academy are looking at, which is
00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:58.990
like, okay, what actually are these benefits?
00:14:00.129 --> 00:14:03.330
And again, there is work happening in DfE that
00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:07.169
is looking at what they call the overspill benefits,
00:14:07.429 --> 00:14:09.769
the other stuff that we get by having graduates.
00:14:10.350 --> 00:14:13.669
It is a difficult calculation to make, but I
00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:16.710
am absolutely certain there are people within
00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:20.389
the DfE that are. that are attempting to make
00:14:20.389 --> 00:14:22.990
these distinctions and are attempting to understand
00:14:22.990 --> 00:14:25.850
what the data can actually show us. This is a
00:14:25.850 --> 00:14:27.950
really interesting trade -off, I think, Pam.
00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:32.370
Imagine you're going to invest in something.
00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:34.429
You haven't got a lot of money, but you've decided
00:14:34.429 --> 00:14:40.870
to invest. Your choices are, I'll invest in either
00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:44.350
the existing students that we have in, say, back
00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.639
in 2019, by giving them a bit more maintenance
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.779
loans, they've got time to learn more skills
00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:51.960
and become even more economically productive,
00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:55.740
or I'll choke off their funding and instead I'll
00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:58.340
do what we've actually done since 2019 and massively
00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:01.659
expand franchising in sheep to teach business
00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:04.059
courses around the edges of cities. Like if you
00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:05.980
had to make that choice and you were actively
00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:08.120
making that choice, what choice would you make?
00:15:08.409 --> 00:15:10.409
I think that's quite a difficult choice to make.
00:15:10.990 --> 00:15:12.870
Instinctively, I would invest as soon as possible.
00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:18.279
I mean, I have put it in a particular way. That's
00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.620
a very loaded question and my preference would
00:15:20.620 --> 00:15:23.620
be to have students that are already there. However,
00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:26.559
if you look at the developing skills profiles
00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.759
of the country and where we might need people
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.259
in the future, it's not necessarily sensible
00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:35.980
to limit that spread of higher education because
00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:38.200
if you're moving into a high skilled economy,
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.700
which the country is theoretically trying to
00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:44.460
do, AI aside, then the more people who are able
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:47.549
to access higher levels of learning. and not
00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:50.149
necessarily come out with a qualification business
00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:53.210
that is, but the ability to learn and develop
00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:55.070
throughout their careers, then you do want to
00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:57.220
be able to spread that a bit wider. I think that's
00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:00.259
a lot harder to put a kind of a pound sign against
00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:05.799
those. It's the non -monetary benefits. But when
00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.279
you say spread, Pam, right? Do you mean spread
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.980
geographically or spread just more people? Because
00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.220
the trouble is since 2019, it looks like pretty
00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.360
much all the, you know, the spreading has been
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.679
to London, Manchester, you know, around the edges
00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.120
of cities doing, you know, business qualifications.
00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:25.440
Is that the spread we wanted if we wanted to,
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.919
do you know what I mean? It wasn't that long
00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:28.620
ago that I was doing marathon training, and I
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.019
think I was chatting to you, Jim, and I decided
00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:32.600
to run to a franchise provider on the edge of
00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.559
my city. I live in the city centre. And I was
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.299
like, gee, let's see what this is, because the
00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:39.399
pictures online were all AI -generated, and I
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.519
wanted to actually find it. And I did find it,
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.350
and it was bleak. it still had no transport infrastructure
00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:46.450
near it there was no local community around it
00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:48.029
that would even you know it was basically an
00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:49.730
industrial estate and unless you wanted to go
00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:51.850
to DFS and you know curry's on your lunchtime
00:16:51.850 --> 00:16:54.110
like there's no there was nothing there that
00:16:54.110 --> 00:16:56.330
said you know this is this is um you know outreaching
00:16:56.330 --> 00:16:58.149
to a local community that can then upskill themselves
00:16:58.149 --> 00:16:59.669
because they're closer to that and they won't
00:16:59.669 --> 00:17:01.210
be able to get into the city centre and go to
00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:04.809
you know man met for example um it is the kind
00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:06.789
of like the principle and the and the idea of
00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:09.970
this and the vision you know isn't isn't not
00:17:09.970 --> 00:17:12.069
sound but the practice of it now is just become
00:17:12.069 --> 00:17:14.829
so, so dodgy, let's be honest, that it does kind
00:17:14.829 --> 00:17:17.750
of make my stomach go a bit funny. Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:22.150
Yes. Yeah. I mean, you can always find someone
00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:25.700
that will benefit. in principle from higher education
00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:28.380
but if you haven't got lots of money the idea
00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:32.099
that you would just throw particularly when all
00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.279
the all the expansion there's been has appears
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.960
to be in the sort of provision that isn't delivering
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.380
the you know delivering the goods i mean yeah
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.519
that gets very tricky you've been keeping your
00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.119
eye on this mac haven't you this week is that
00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:46.700
yeah and any other news from lucy pail and on
00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:48.740
student loans i mean this thing today is quite
00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:50.700
interesting isn't it this rethink repayment with
00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:54.140
nus having a little demo outside I can't remember
00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:56.420
the last time NUS had a demo, other than the
00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:58.319
great demo of 2010, where my name was on the
00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.980
risk assessment. It's all right, there'll only
00:17:59.980 --> 00:18:02.480
be 2 ,000 students. A demo outside number 10
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.119
North, that's probably the first demo outside
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.779
number 10 North, isn't it? I think it will at
00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:07.519
least be the first student -based demo. Yeah,
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.220
absolutely. I mean, there are frustrations. I
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.200
think are really interesting because you know
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.220
we're getting to the point now where you know
00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:17.279
students and student activists that are campaigning
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.920
and you know rethink repayment is thinking mostly
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.500
about graduates because when we talk about the
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:22.819
student loan debate really we're talking about
00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:24.960
plan two students but a lot of the student activists
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.819
which you know will be going to number 10 north
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:29.119
um you know this afternoon or this morning they're
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:30.660
actually thinking about the wider picture so
00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:32.500
they're thinking about you know about plan five
00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.359
students who are you know you know plan your
00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.240
daughter will be a plan five student and you
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.119
know the terms of that repayment aren't much
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.299
better you know they're not they're slightly
00:18:40.269 --> 00:18:41.670
better but they're not much better it depends
00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.470
on what lens you look through and they're also
00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:44.809
thinking about the maintenance aspects of this
00:18:44.809 --> 00:18:46.470
and you know certainly when we'll talk about
00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:49.950
it later this morning students are going to university
00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:51.670
now knowing that they are going to probably be
00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:54.250
working one if not two jobs skipping a few meals
00:18:54.250 --> 00:18:56.450
and struggling and it's very very different to
00:18:56.450 --> 00:18:58.390
that beans on toast narrative that you know we
00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.589
fed we fed you know incoming students you know
00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:02.410
maybe 10 years ago it's going to be tough you're
00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:04.190
going to have to scrimp and save and no this
00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:06.170
is you know very much about survival and about
00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:07.789
kind of and to what extent you actually can have
00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:09.190
a decent time and to what extent you can be able
00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:11.119
to just go through that degree. So I think that's
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.140
a lot of what the discussion will be. Well, the
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:15.240
discussion placards will be about today is, you
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.059
know, plan two students, plan two, sorry, holders.
00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:20.039
Absolutely. These are graduates we're talking
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:22.579
about and the conversation hasn't yet in the
00:19:22.579 --> 00:19:25.180
past nine months, really moved from plan two
00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:28.559
holders onto kind of current borrowers. Yeah,
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.500
that's true. Now while we're on this DK, the
00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:35.099
University of UK future jobs thing where there's
00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.420
this grand commitment to make sure that every
00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:40.160
student, you know, does some work. while they're
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.680
at university and the first thing whenever someone
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.500
proposes this locally the first thing I think
00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.019
is okay it's either in the credit system and
00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:50.460
it's unpaid which will take them out of the ability
00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:53.559
to earn money part -time In the labor market
00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.019
or it's outside the credit system people are
00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:59.200
already scrapping for placements, you know It's
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.259
not like there's tons of businesses falling over
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.519
themselves to offer placements and actually every
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.700
time every time a university has a push on this
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:07.380
I always look at the other universities are having
00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:09.519
a push on this in the region and think this is
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.759
more of a fight over placements this is you know
00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.430
when you combine all that It becomes really difficult,
00:20:16.430 --> 00:20:18.529
doesn't it, for students to both find the work,
00:20:18.769 --> 00:20:20.769
for it to be paid ideally, and for businesses
00:20:20.769 --> 00:20:24.930
to support it meaningfully. The thing with placements
00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.670
is they are really hard to get right across the
00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:31.309
system. I still remember trying to find a placement
00:20:31.309 --> 00:20:34.990
for my kid at school and it's really, really
00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:37.970
hard to do. There's not a lot of employers who
00:20:37.970 --> 00:20:40.200
will think... Tell you what, what I really fancy
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.559
doing is doing a little bit of teaching and instruction,
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.660
not getting any kind of payment for it whatsoever,
00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.259
and just helping out the school system. It's
00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.700
not what you do, especially if you're an SME,
00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.079
especially if you're a one person enterprise.
00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:57.019
There's not a lot of it out there. And we've
00:20:57.019 --> 00:20:59.279
seen this at schools, we've seen this with T
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.259
levels, which had been really slow to get off
00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:04.039
the ground precisely because it's really hard
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.119
to find placements. We see it at universities
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.119
as well. There's a number of universities that
00:21:08.329 --> 00:21:11.309
promote the idea that you will get a placement.
00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:13.869
I mean, years and years ago, the University of
00:21:13.869 --> 00:21:15.690
Bradford used to make the big thing about every
00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:18.069
student has a placement. There's been an announcement
00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:19.890
in Manchester. There's a couple of other places
00:21:19.890 --> 00:21:23.390
as well, but it is really, really hard to firstly
00:21:23.390 --> 00:21:26.309
get any placement at all. And secondly, even
00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:28.750
if you can do that, to get a meaningful placement
00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:32.009
that contributes to the graduate's learning and
00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:34.970
employability. I mean, the obvious answer, which
00:21:34.970 --> 00:21:38.480
is a case you've made many, many times on the
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.940
site is you know if students are doing all of
00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:43.940
this work in order to survive why not actually
00:21:43.940 --> 00:21:46.400
give them a measure of academic credit for it
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.099
and you know maybe you can have them reflecting
00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.019
on it or writing about it in some kind of a critical
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:54.369
way to make it a little more academic but This
00:21:54.369 --> 00:21:57.710
does not feel like it is beyond the wit of man
00:21:57.710 --> 00:22:00.430
to organise something like that that reflects
00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:03.809
the work that students are already doing. There's
00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:07.009
actually quite a sophisticated set of systems
00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:10.710
in other countries about recognising the learning
00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:14.210
that people get from work. I'm not talking about
00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:16.869
giving people academic credit for pulling pints,
00:22:16.910 --> 00:22:18.849
but actually if they're a shift supervisor in
00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:22.420
spoons. and you know they're the deputy licensee
00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:25.759
and so on it's not immediately clear to me that
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.319
every student that's doing that needs all 360
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.980
credits to be in their academic subjects some
00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:34.299
of those credits you know are life -changing
00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:36.500
they're important we're saying last week via
00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:38.900
universities uk that they amount to learning
00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:41.460
why aren't we why aren't we recognizing that
00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.740
as learning because it's suddenly it all starts
00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:46.829
to fit together in a way that kind of doesn't
00:22:46.829 --> 00:22:49.089
at the moment. I think any work -based learning
00:22:49.089 --> 00:22:51.769
that is where the agency is on the scene to find
00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:54.730
it, the biggest asterix for any, you know, for
00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:56.730
any university that's doing a big strategy on
00:22:56.730 --> 00:22:59.369
that is, you know, the access to them. I remember
00:22:59.369 --> 00:23:01.589
being at university and a friend on my course
00:23:01.589 --> 00:23:03.569
very casually was like, you know, my dad couldn't
00:23:03.569 --> 00:23:05.750
find us all place, all internships and placements.
00:23:05.750 --> 00:23:08.829
And I was like, I studied politics. My dad could
00:23:08.829 --> 00:23:10.490
absolutely, wouldn't even know what an internship
00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:12.970
is, no disrespect to John. But he wouldn't. So
00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:15.170
like, it's about access to those things as well.
00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:17.829
And, you know, it isn't just a fight right now
00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:19.690
because everyone's putting in applications for
00:23:19.690 --> 00:23:21.349
however many, you know, limited placements there
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:23.089
are. It's about contacts. It's about inside the
00:23:23.089 --> 00:23:25.130
networks. And, you know, that probably isn't
00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:27.789
covered in universities' APP right now. But do
00:23:27.789 --> 00:23:29.190
you remember when we were in Portugal and we
00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:32.240
were at that... we were at that provider where
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.519
you know there was actually a moderately sophisticated
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.299
way of finding every student a placement wasn't
00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:39.019
there? Well in that, forgive me if I'm wrong
00:23:39.019 --> 00:23:41.180
Jim, that was where the university was really
00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:43.640
entangled with the local businesses and the local
00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.279
economy to the point of which they were they
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:46.900
were constantly working a partnership. I'm not
00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:48.519
saying universities don't do that in the UK to
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:50.700
the same extent but they weren't as kind of as
00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.180
harmoniously entangled and you know the universities
00:23:53.180 --> 00:23:54.579
were there to deliver some of the skills for
00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:56.500
the local economy in a way in which we haven't
00:23:56.500 --> 00:23:59.019
kind of linked up I guess as sophisticatedly.
00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:01.180
really got there. Right. Thank you, everyone.
00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:03.019
Why don't we find out who's been blogging for
00:24:03.019 --> 00:24:07.799
us this week. Hi, my name is Sahil and I am the
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.319
Director of Accreditation at School of Management
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.480
University of Bath. This week on wonky my friend
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.299
Rashad Shabab, the Associate Dean for Education
00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:19.630
and Students at the University of Sussex. And
00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:22.849
I've been blogging about why program coherence
00:24:22.849 --> 00:24:25.769
should be everyone's responsibility and not just
00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:28.069
the program leader's job. Universities can have
00:24:28.069 --> 00:24:31.029
excellent individual modules, but students often
00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:34.369
experience their degree as a series of disconnected
00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:37.890
classes, assessments and expectations. They notice
00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:40.670
repeated content clashing approaches to things
00:24:40.670 --> 00:24:44.930
like Generative AI and deadlines all landing
00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:48.029
at once. The issue is not actually a lack of
00:24:48.029 --> 00:24:50.890
care from teaching staff. It's that university
00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:54.789
structures, quality processes and rewards tend
00:24:54.789 --> 00:24:57.710
to focus on modules in isolation rather than
00:24:57.710 --> 00:25:00.690
on how they fit together. Creating a coherent
00:25:00.690 --> 00:25:03.369
program takes ongoing conversation and shared
00:25:03.369 --> 00:25:06.660
ownership across teaching teams. If you really
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.319
want students to experience a connected academic
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.400
journey, we need to value collaborative curriculum
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.079
design as much as brilliant teaching in any single
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:24.059
module. Now, DK, just when we thought that free
00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:26.579
speech was starting to be something we didn't
00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:30.359
have to read 90 page OFS PDFs about, another
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.779
90 page OFS PDF has landed! Yeah, I mean, it's
00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.500
a source of an anxiety dream, really. This is
00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:38.180
never going to stop. There's always going to
00:25:38.180 --> 00:25:41.019
be 90 -page PDFs from the UFS about freedom of
00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:42.599
speech. They're always going to be hard to read
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.740
and intently irritating. And here we have another
00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:49.839
one. Now, this is the ostensibly sensible bit
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.319
of the Freedom of Speech Act, the bits dealing
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.940
with... governing documents and governance arrangements,
00:25:56.019 --> 00:25:57.880
which is going to be new condition of registration
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.859
E11 and new condition registration E12, which
00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.839
covers the actual free speech duties, which are
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.140
the bits where you have to not just support freedom
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:10.500
of speech, but actively promote freedom of speech.
00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:13.900
So this is all going to come into force on the
00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:17.720
1st of April, 2027. This is quite tight for a
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.580
consultation. You do have to wonder. exactly
00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:24.880
how much impact given the number of bits that
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.839
are completely out of bounds because they relate
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.960
to legal judgments or the actual layer of the
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.259
law itself that are actually going to change
00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:36.019
as a result of responses. As a set of documents,
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:40.779
it shows the OFS walking a line very carefully
00:26:40.779 --> 00:26:45.000
between what it actually has to do and what it
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.279
actually has to set out and actually offering
00:26:47.549 --> 00:26:50.190
a kind of meaningful guidance and support to
00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:52.730
universities in doing these things against the
00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:56.170
kind of post Sussex no surprises thing in which
00:26:56.170 --> 00:26:59.109
everything has to be clear and straightforward
00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:02.250
and they don't dive in with a studs up until
00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:05.450
they've actually had a talk to the university
00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:10.920
in question first of all. So this is Another
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.579
set of scaffolding which universities and particularly
00:27:13.579 --> 00:27:15.859
university boards are going to have to look at
00:27:15.859 --> 00:27:18.519
because it deals directly with the idea of a
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:21.000
governing document and what's in the governing
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.279
documents and how this supports our otherwise
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.200
freedom of speech. I've got some lovely examples
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:32.500
of this. Let's talk about the Randsen benefaction,
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:35.400
which is a part of the regulations of the University
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:38.359
of Oxford. There is a request that's been left
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.539
to Oxford to provide a preacher to preach a sermon
00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:45.200
on church extension within the British Commonwealth.
00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:48.880
This has happened since 1847, so you'd have to
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.019
assume people know about it. Now, under the terms
00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:56.460
of the promotion of free speech regulation, this
00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:58.859
feels to me like if you're specifying what a
00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:01.599
preacher needs to talk about, you're implicitly
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.579
specifying what they can't talk about. If they
00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:05.119
have to talk about the expansion of the Church
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:08.210
of England, they cannot talk about what's been
00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:10.289
happening in the news that week or something
00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:13.329
like that. Is that a part of a governing document
00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:16.210
that restricts freedom of speech? Is that something
00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:18.470
that the RFS is going to go steaming in on? We
00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:22.390
don't actually know, and I'd love to hear from
00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:25.230
somebody from Oxford who can explain this to
00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:27.269
me. Are they going to have to change the terms
00:28:27.269 --> 00:28:29.849
of that bequest or not? Yes, we have a clip from
00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:34.519
someone from Oxford. No, we don't. Okay. You
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.420
know, the other thing in here is I think a Rubicon
00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:41.559
has been crossed, you know, because when I was
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:43.779
reading it yesterday, so basically yesterday,
00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:47.539
DK was looking at the, you know, this big new
00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:50.700
dashboard that OFS has published. And so I was
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:53.920
reading this yesterday and, you know, I was slowly
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.900
getting my head around, you know, the various
00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.859
potential contradictions and the and the potential
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:00.539
kind of Kafka -esque, you know, what's a governing
00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:02.799
document? And then I got to the bit where it
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:04.859
said, where basically the promote GT. So, you
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.059
know, the other thing this document does is it
00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:10.039
suggests, you know, it's got proposed guidance
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.859
on what would count as promoting free speech,
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:14.420
because there's two GTs, you know, the secure
00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:17.079
GT and the promote GT. And it's crossed a Rebicon
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:21.140
because it gets into how you teach. I don't know
00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:22.819
if you've seen this right but there's one of
00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:25.539
the lines in there says it may depending on the
00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:27.579
circumstances be likely to assist providers and
00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:29.180
constituent institutions to meet their promote
00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:32.500
duty la la la la to have more student -led debate
00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:38.000
and discussion spaces to smaller class sizes
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.119
i .e. moderated seminars there's a line in here
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.140
that says make sure more junior audience members
00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:46.160
and participants are the first to comment after
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.390
a talk There's a moment in here where it says,
00:29:49.450 --> 00:29:51.549
make sure people are sat around tables rather
00:29:51.549 --> 00:29:54.049
than lecture formats. And I'm like, okay, even
00:29:54.049 --> 00:29:57.150
if I set aside the idea that OFS is busy, you
00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:00.029
know, encouraging people to make savings reductions,
00:30:01.269 --> 00:30:04.049
a document that broadly tells people how to teach
00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:08.210
is a new level of finger wagging, isn't it? It
00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:12.470
did speak to me around the tension between that
00:30:12.470 --> 00:30:16.210
duty to have due regard to academic freedom and
00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.990
promote freedom of speech because they are limiting
00:30:19.990 --> 00:30:22.589
by some of this guidance. If it's taken literally,
00:30:22.849 --> 00:30:26.009
it could limit the freedom of an academic to
00:30:26.009 --> 00:30:28.930
deliver their teaching and the student's experience
00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:32.210
in a way that best fits. I think also practically,
00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:34.269
what we're going to do, we're going to lock down
00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:38.259
our 300 seat lecture theatre. that we also use
00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.500
for a whole host of other things. Some of it
00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:45.779
is impractical in practice and some of it just
00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:49.119
depends on what you are trying to do through
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.200
the particular mode of delivery. Maybe freedom
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.640
of speech is less at risk if it is a didactic
00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:58.880
piece of teaching, your chalk and talk, and maybe
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.759
there are more risks in those seminar situations.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.680
But it's for academics to determine what they
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.299
need to do to achieve the desired learning outcomes
00:31:08.299 --> 00:31:11.359
for the piece of content they are delivering.
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.559
And I think there's a real dangerous crossover
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.900
between that. I mean, a couple of other things
00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:21.200
that left out to me were... have unrecorded Q
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.519
&As. Now, anybody who has speech -to -text software,
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.099
you're then discriminating against their right
00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:31.859
to access their learning because you are then
00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:35.000
removing their ability to understand what's going
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.859
on. Whether they are visually impaired, hearing
00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:41.779
impaired, have dyslexia, what other executive
00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:44.279
processing difficulties that they've got, you're
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.400
taking away that. Are you saying that Also, even
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.559
if you don't think about disabled students, good
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.980
luck with that. I mean, literally, around my
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:54.960
neck right now, I'm wearing a little recorder.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.700
Do you know what I mean? The idea that this is...
00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:01.180
I do get the feeling when I was reading it that
00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:04.579
it's a document written for colleagues at Cambridge.
00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:07.420
Yeah, it did feel very much like a... Well, obviously
00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:10.369
we'll have our tutor. and you'll go and see your
00:32:10.369 --> 00:32:12.230
tutor in their office once a week, and there
00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:14.769
will be conflicts. But there's also, practically,
00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:18.150
we are waiting for the outcome of the C6 consultation.
00:32:18.349 --> 00:32:21.369
That's coming out in, quote marks, the autumn
00:32:21.369 --> 00:32:24.890
with an implementation timeframe that is essentially
00:32:24.890 --> 00:32:28.269
overlapping the freedom of speech work. Now,
00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:30.529
most providers should have done quite a lot of
00:32:30.529 --> 00:32:32.769
this, the preparatory work for freedom of speech
00:32:32.769 --> 00:32:36.279
already, but still. particularly in smaller providers,
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.200
you're going to have a same couple of people
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:41.880
doing both bits of regulatory implementation.
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:46.539
and trying to balance quite a lot of complex
00:32:46.539 --> 00:32:49.779
guidance. There's a lot of over -specifying.
00:32:50.299 --> 00:32:51.980
We've kind of got a little bit of what we asked
00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.660
for. Consultation promises say, we need more
00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.539
clarity. We need more examples. We need you to
00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:00.599
tell us exactly what you mean. Then obviously
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:04.880
now that we've got it, too much information.
00:33:05.829 --> 00:33:09.890
Now, while we've been talking, Mack, as you would
00:33:09.890 --> 00:33:13.109
be the first to say, my blogs are too long. So
00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:15.289
one of the things I didn't put in the article
00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:20.109
about the consultation is some stats that I've
00:33:20.109 --> 00:33:22.289
nevertheless thrown out as a wonk corner a couple
00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:25.750
of minutes ago that went up a bit later. And
00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:27.970
basically, one of the bees in my bonnet about
00:33:27.970 --> 00:33:31.130
all of this is, you know, where have we got the
00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:33.170
biggest problem? And actually, if you look at
00:33:33.170 --> 00:33:36.049
the stats, Not only does the free speech question
00:33:36.049 --> 00:33:39.109
in the NSS represent pretty much the best theme,
00:33:39.450 --> 00:33:41.470
right? So, you know, if you were a risk -based
00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:44.049
regulator, you'd be wandering around the country
00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:47.130
issuing very, very detailed ideas about assessment
00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:48.910
and feedback or something, right? You know, that's
00:33:48.910 --> 00:33:51.990
what you'd do. But it's medicine. And, you know,
00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:54.829
we don't know why. I mean, OFS is still sat on
00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:56.910
this treasure trove of free text commentary that
00:33:56.910 --> 00:34:00.190
it's never analyzed that might tell us why. But,
00:34:00.329 --> 00:34:01.730
you know, if I look at all the other pieces of
00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:03.990
research that come out on MedCert, it's fitness
00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:06.650
to practice and placements. Now, there's no word
00:34:06.650 --> 00:34:08.610
on fitness to practice and placements in here.
00:34:08.750 --> 00:34:11.050
And actually, you can have all the Chattermouse
00:34:11.050 --> 00:34:13.110
rules conversations in your seminars that you
00:34:13.110 --> 00:34:15.090
want. It's not going to fix someone feeling they
00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:18.289
can't speak out on the wall, does it? The NSS
00:34:18.289 --> 00:34:20.610
question is a funny one because the extent to
00:34:20.610 --> 00:34:22.250
which everyone comprehends in the same way how
00:34:22.250 --> 00:34:24.030
a student interprets it versus how the regulator
00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:26.050
interprets it versus how a university interprets
00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:29.650
it is when they get the data back. different
00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:32.869
things it is odd that their recommendations here
00:34:32.869 --> 00:34:35.489
it seemed to be around I mean when I was reading
00:34:35.489 --> 00:34:38.030
it this morning it felt like the old feds were
00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:40.489
trying to regulate quality better here through
00:34:40.489 --> 00:34:42.469
than they do through you know their existing
00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:44.530
B conditions or quality processes I was like
00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:46.829
we're talking about pedagogy all of a sudden
00:34:46.829 --> 00:34:49.289
and actually what what we're talking about with
00:34:49.289 --> 00:34:53.380
small class sizes with you know small class sizes
00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:55.420
and you know those are those other kind of like
00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:58.000
you know round tables you know active learning
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:01.199
classrooms setting ground rules you know it's
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.360
all just like it's all just good good pedagogy
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.539
stuff but actually it's the scaffolding to make
00:35:05.539 --> 00:35:07.360
students feel comfortable and safe in order to
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.880
be able to kind of like share their thoughts
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.800
and opinions and it's the same sort of principle
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.960
which they've hinted at but not really like done
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.860
an amazing job with with c6 and e6 which is you
00:35:15.860 --> 00:35:17.900
know they want more students to you know if if
00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:19.360
unfortunately they have experienced harassment
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.059
they should be able to report and they should
00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:22.889
have confidence to you those mechanisms. If they
00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:24.389
don't feel like their consumer rights have been
00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:25.789
met in higher education, they want them to be
00:35:25.789 --> 00:35:27.489
able to report it. You know, if they don't feel
00:35:27.489 --> 00:35:28.869
like their free speech, you know, if they feel
00:35:28.869 --> 00:35:30.250
like their free speech has been silenced, they
00:35:30.250 --> 00:35:32.590
want them to report it. But you have to create
00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:34.289
the conditions of which they feel safe to do
00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:36.710
so and confident to do so too. And we've seen
00:35:36.710 --> 00:35:38.530
that with various pieces of research about free
00:35:38.530 --> 00:35:40.070
speech in the past, which is students are quite
00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:41.690
fine, you know, saying what they want to say,
00:35:41.750 --> 00:35:44.630
they're just not confident. It's an anxiety issue
00:35:44.630 --> 00:35:48.420
rather than a feeling of being stifled. and the
00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:50.880
the thing here is the the pedagogy and the guidance
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:53.179
which they're giving you know is weirdly detailed
00:35:53.179 --> 00:35:55.420
for you know this bit but we haven't really done
00:35:55.420 --> 00:35:58.340
it for e6 or for c6 yet but you're right when
00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:00.500
it comes down to you know this feels like it's
00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:02.420
a bit of a cambridge seminar sort of situation
00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:05.719
rather than big class sizes you know much bigger
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:08.440
universities now who are struggling financially
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.280
and aren't going to be able to now move all of
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.159
their desks and tables around and start setting
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.659
up 20 -room seminars. And when he gets to like
00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:17.199
courses on medicine and, you know, students that
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.460
are on placement, they've got very, very different
00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:21.739
free speech needs that this guidance isn't even
00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:23.099
touching upon or, you know, there could have
00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:25.440
been at least one proposal about. I'll tell you,
00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:27.000
I'll tell you the thing that really worries me,
00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:30.519
DK, right? Unlike every other aspect of the teaching,
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.940
learning and why does student experience that
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.139
a university might be responsible for? This is
00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:38.360
one where, when a complaint comes in, OFS can
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.079
then, and it's written it carefully, but broadly
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.039
OFS has said, look, you know, if we uphold a
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:44.559
complaint, you're likely to have been in breach
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:47.980
of a condition of registration. That's also brand
00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:50.239
new. I mean, at the moment, people uphold all
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.000
sorts of complaints. And that, you know, barely
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.300
speaks to OFS's regulation. In fact, we've got
00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:57.440
a blog on the site from someone who FOI'd and
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.420
basically worked out that there's no process
00:36:59.420 --> 00:37:03.849
for OFS. doing that. I've described it, I can't
00:37:03.849 --> 00:37:05.190
remember, what did I do? I think I described
00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:08.230
it as you've got a kind of invasive laser on
00:37:08.230 --> 00:37:10.429
this particular aspect of teaching and learning,
00:37:10.730 --> 00:37:12.789
but then for every other aspect of teaching and
00:37:12.789 --> 00:37:15.349
learning, which has got worse satisfaction in
00:37:15.349 --> 00:37:18.090
the NSS, I might add, you've got this kind of
00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:20.889
really dull, broad flashlight where the batteries
00:37:20.889 --> 00:37:25.590
are going. To be fair, that's probably not particularly
00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:27.829
Arif Ahmed's fault. It's the way the legislation
00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:30.269
set it up, but it does seem like a really weird
00:37:30.269 --> 00:37:32.469
scenario, don't it? Where we've got an office
00:37:32.469 --> 00:37:35.090
for students. Students can't use the complaints
00:37:35.090 --> 00:37:37.389
procedure, but the people who can, can basically
00:37:37.389 --> 00:37:40.829
get a breach of registration finding out of one
00:37:40.829 --> 00:37:42.809
complaint and one incident. That's odd, isn't
00:37:42.809 --> 00:37:44.409
it? Your audios entirely. Well, we can't hear
00:37:44.409 --> 00:37:47.869
you, DK. That's odd. Right. Okay. I'm back. To
00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:51.050
be strictly fair to the OFS, they do say that
00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:53.730
even if this is identified as a breach, it doesn't
00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:55.610
necessarily mean that they're going to steam
00:37:55.610 --> 00:37:58.360
in and start taking regulatory action. But it
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.079
does, as you say, it is a weird thing to be this
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.519
particular component of the student experience
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.239
has got this absolutely gold plated system. And
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:10.300
all of the rest of it is just like, oh, well,
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.659
you can probably complain to an institution and
00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:14.559
they'll probably sort it out. If not, you can
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.280
complain to somebody else. They'll probably sort
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:18.219
it out, but we don't know. We don't really care
00:38:18.219 --> 00:38:20.139
about that. And then your complaint may or may
00:38:20.139 --> 00:38:24.920
not show up in some stats at some point. It is
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.739
an odd set of priorities. They are constrained
00:38:27.739 --> 00:38:31.539
by the way the legislation has been set up. I
00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:34.340
mean, which is kind of basically because round
00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:37.639
about 2019, everybody in the conservative party
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.119
decided that this issue was really important
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:42.039
and this was something that really needed proper
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:46.440
safeguards. It would be, I mean, given what we
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.800
saw in the High Court recently, I would be very
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.380
surprised if OFS was super proactive on the idea,
00:38:54.099 --> 00:38:57.219
oh, there's been a complaint, somebody was sitting
00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:00.699
in a medicine seminar, was not allowed to talk
00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:03.199
about, I mean, gallons, theories of the four
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.420
humans that control the body. their freedom of
00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:09.659
speech has been, has been traveled upon. So therefore
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:13.099
let's close down Bristol Medical School. I think
00:39:13.099 --> 00:39:16.159
the legal grounds for doing this are quite shaky.
00:39:17.139 --> 00:39:19.900
And, and, but, you know, you'd think, I mean,
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:21.980
parity, if you're going to do this for one kind
00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:23.679
of student complaint, you should do it for any
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.559
kind of student complaint. The other thing that
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.500
strikes me about those medical stats, Pam, is
00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:29.820
that, you know, in the context of what we were
00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:32.969
talking about earlier, he's tricky enough, you
00:39:32.969 --> 00:39:36.250
know, kind of corralling academics to do things.
00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:38.929
But you know, once you're saying that, you know,
00:39:39.050 --> 00:39:41.369
technically, every single placement provider,
00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:44.250
you know, in theory, I think, if I read it right,
00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:46.550
I think you or one of your colleagues, Pam, are
00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:48.690
supposed to sit down with the boss of every placement
00:39:48.690 --> 00:39:50.949
provider and say, you are allowing maximum free
00:39:50.949 --> 00:39:54.409
speech, aren't you? Like, I mean, I just don't
00:39:54.409 --> 00:39:57.170
even know, I don't even know how that would work.
00:39:57.349 --> 00:39:59.389
I'm not sure those are the skills that employers
00:39:59.389 --> 00:40:02.690
are, or maybe they are. Well, there's a broader
00:40:02.690 --> 00:40:07.630
problem with hierarchy in medical context anyways.
00:40:08.210 --> 00:40:10.929
We all know, you know, we've all come across
00:40:10.929 --> 00:40:13.269
a doctor with a gold complex and they are in
00:40:13.269 --> 00:40:16.570
a teaching situation, then their students' free
00:40:16.570 --> 00:40:20.210
speech might be limited. But from that council
00:40:20.210 --> 00:40:23.590
perspective, if you've got students going out
00:40:23.590 --> 00:40:28.030
into placements, you potentially... In local
00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:32.570
community health centers, you might have audiology
00:40:32.570 --> 00:40:36.909
students going out to Specsavers in Crossgate
00:40:36.909 --> 00:40:40.590
Leeds to do a placement there. You're going to
00:40:40.590 --> 00:40:43.289
go to every Specsavers franchise, so you can't
00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:45.730
just go to Specsavers head office. You've literally
00:40:45.730 --> 00:40:49.409
got to go to that particular placement location
00:40:49.409 --> 00:40:53.889
for sure. It's not practical and what will happen
00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:56.670
is that there will be a set of principles that
00:40:56.670 --> 00:40:59.110
are shared as part of those placement agreements.
00:41:00.030 --> 00:41:01.989
I am very looking forward to getting a leaf through
00:41:01.989 --> 00:41:05.250
the door as I do every six months from Specsavers
00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:07.869
going, not come and get your glasses fixed, but
00:41:07.869 --> 00:41:12.030
debate night. That sounds great. I'm going to
00:41:12.030 --> 00:41:14.789
bring some sandwiches. Right. Well, please, will
00:41:14.789 --> 00:41:17.309
someone make it make sense? Well, I've got good
00:41:17.309 --> 00:41:21.739
news. Higher education is a system of moving
00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.739
parts. Funding, teaching, research, governance,
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:28.079
data, students, strategy, culture, international.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.840
Each one a world in itself and all of them connected.
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:34.219
Most people in a sector know their part well.
00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:36.420
What's harder to come by is a working knowledge
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:39.239
of the whole. How the pieces fit. Where the pressure
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:41.559
points are. And what's driving the decisions
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:44.039
that land on your desk. Here at Wonky we're doing
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.360
something about that. Making sense of higher
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:49.800
education is 10 live online modules running every
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three weeks from October 26 to April 27. Public
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.699
value, funding and finance, teaching and learning,
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.539
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00:41:59.860 --> 00:42:02.760
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00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.250
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00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:12.809
it live, you won't miss out. It's for people
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into how the sector works. For governors who
00:42:17.449 --> 00:42:20.210
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00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:22.969
professionals ready to contribute beyond their
00:42:22.969 --> 00:42:25.590
own patch. We cannot wait to help you make sense
00:42:25.590 --> 00:42:28.630
of higher education. Find out more at wonky .com
00:42:28.630 --> 00:42:35.460
forward slash events. So, lots of other things
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:37.880
have been going on this week. Who'd like to go
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.239
first, DK? Okay, you might have noticed the Office
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:43.460
of Students has got its own AI chatbot at this
00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:45.480
point. I can't see this causing any problems
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.199
going forward. If you are spending 10 minutes,
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:51.900
I mean waiting for a train or something, just...
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.800
try and get it to present you with the most bizarre
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.460
thing you possibly can. My record thus far, I
00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:00.340
have a recipe for a vegan chocolate cake with
00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:02.780
no nuts that is compliant with the regulatory
00:43:02.780 --> 00:43:06.360
framework. If you can better that, please do
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.699
send me an email. Yes, I managed to get it to
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:12.679
speak in pirate that last week, which was excellent.
00:43:13.150 --> 00:43:16.570
In a way, I can't think of a better way to describe
00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:21.670
condition B4. Matt? I'll assume you did that,
00:43:21.670 --> 00:43:23.789
yes. This week I've been looking at one of my
00:43:23.789 --> 00:43:26.489
favourite not -so -good surveys, and I say not
00:43:26.489 --> 00:43:27.869
-so -good because the weighting isn't amazing,
00:43:27.929 --> 00:43:30.150
but it's the National Student Money Survey from
00:43:30.150 --> 00:43:32.849
Save the Student. We've touched on a lot of this
00:43:32.849 --> 00:43:34.789
already today, but one of the stats, which I
00:43:34.789 --> 00:43:37.130
looked at this survey two years ago and I wrote
00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:39.949
a piece and it was like 67 % of students are
00:43:39.949 --> 00:43:41.630
skipping meals. And I thought every year when
00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:42.980
it comes back into the inbox... because I always
00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:44.659
want to check and go, wonder what it is this
00:43:44.659 --> 00:43:46.500
year? It's 63 % this year and that, you know,
00:43:46.579 --> 00:43:48.079
it's not cause for celebration. You know, the
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:50.280
methodology is not perfect of this survey, but
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.199
every single year and every single conversation,
00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:53.760
you know. James Ranney will have been having
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.260
with SU offices over the summer tells a story
00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:58.760
of food poverty and it's one which two years
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.099
ago at my end of my article says this is becoming
00:44:01.099 --> 00:44:03.880
incredibly normalized for students and the system
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:06.360
has normalized it too and two years on I've read
00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:09.019
you know very similar stats again serving methodology
00:44:09.019 --> 00:44:11.159
not amazing but it's the same thing and I guess
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.519
my kind of like call to action is there's this
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:15.000
really nice moment happening at universities
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.199
right now where students are getting dropped
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:18.420
off you know going to their first lectures and
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.500
they're going to be really busy and it's going
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:21.059
to be full and academics and lecturers are going
00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:23.309
to love it because The campus is busy and there
00:44:23.309 --> 00:44:25.389
is a moment in November, December where it'll
00:44:25.389 --> 00:44:27.210
all quieten off and everyone will start having
00:44:27.210 --> 00:44:29.449
those crisis meetings of what's happened in engagement
00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:31.610
and attendance. Oh my goodness me. What are we
00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:32.949
doing wrong? We've built all these things and
00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:35.150
they're not coming. And I just beg people not
00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:37.210
to really go straight to the, they're lazy, they're
00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:39.570
all hung over, they can't be bothered. And maybe
00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:41.150
just like take a second and go, do you know what
00:44:41.150 --> 00:44:43.010
they're doing? A really, really quite impressive
00:44:43.010 --> 00:44:45.210
balancing act right now of various different
00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:47.769
challenges. And some of that is skipping meals
00:44:47.769 --> 00:44:49.849
and working two jobs. So there's my crew people.
00:44:50.110 --> 00:44:54.409
Yeah. And part of it is some of the initial panic
00:44:54.409 --> 00:44:56.349
around food price inflation because the Strait
00:44:56.349 --> 00:44:58.389
of Hormuz has eased off, but it's actually now
00:44:58.389 --> 00:45:01.230
eased back on because of that massive, you know,
00:45:01.389 --> 00:45:03.170
climate crop damage we've had over the summer
00:45:03.170 --> 00:45:05.530
and energy bills. I mean, there was a front page,
00:45:05.530 --> 00:45:07.449
wasn't there, this week on the energy price cap
00:45:07.449 --> 00:45:08.829
is going to absolutely rock. I mean, it's not
00:45:08.829 --> 00:45:10.289
great news for Andy Burnham, but it's, you know,
00:45:10.309 --> 00:45:12.929
it's really bad news for students because I suspect
00:45:12.929 --> 00:45:15.170
that as usual, what will happen is if there's
00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:16.989
any help from government, it'll be focused on
00:45:16.989 --> 00:45:19.110
people who claim benefits, people who pay rent
00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:24.039
and the landlord will trial. Sorry, people who,
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:25.860
you know, pay energy bills. Landlords will try
00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:29.260
out of that and students generally aren't in
00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:30.940
the benefits system. So, you know, it's potentially
00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:33.920
a tough winter coming. I've got a new dashboard.
00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:36.980
I do like a new dashboard. Quite rightly, they
00:45:36.980 --> 00:45:39.300
are seeking seed back on this because there's
00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:42.079
definitely a few, definitely a few bugs. I'm
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.400
not entirely sure what the dots on the heat map.
00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:47.099
They look a little bit like spots. They don't
00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.059
go bigger and smaller, but if you were. Yes,
00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:51.800
there's definitely more than one address for
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:53.619
every franchise provider. That's one of the things
00:45:53.619 --> 00:45:56.619
I've noticed. If you're thinking strategically
00:45:56.619 --> 00:45:58.920
about your provision, then this is a great tool
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.519
to help. It really helpfully links to the skills
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.360
dashboards that are published as well. Where
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.039
I think the gap is now is where the higher level
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:13.099
skills are, where our graduate skills are required.
00:46:13.340 --> 00:46:16.119
and where there might be, and I don't know how
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.059
you do this, I'm just throwing it out, where
00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.179
there might be opportunities to kind of build
00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:23.739
businesses and build those graduate level skills
00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:26.539
in the future because the pipeline is still not
00:46:26.539 --> 00:46:30.320
joined up. I think this is another bit of the
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.219
pipe. Yeah, I suppose, DK, to have the pipeline
00:46:33.219 --> 00:46:35.119
joined up, you'd need the data joined up. And
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:36.920
that's one of the things that the dashboard doesn't
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:41.019
really do, isn't it? No, it's like there's still
00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:43.579
a couple of different ways of thinking about
00:46:43.579 --> 00:46:46.920
subject. There's loads of different ways of thinking
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:50.019
about geographic area. And I mean, being OFS,
00:46:50.260 --> 00:46:52.780
they have the power to say, okay, let's sort
00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:55.219
all this out. Let's not use cost centers anymore.
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.500
Let's bring everything into the common academic
00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:01.849
hierarchy or something like that. I mean, that's
00:47:01.849 --> 00:47:03.650
the kind of level of thing they need to do and
00:47:03.650 --> 00:47:05.449
then build the dashboard after that. I've got
00:47:05.449 --> 00:47:07.449
a piece on this, on the site, if anybody wants
00:47:07.449 --> 00:47:09.650
to read it and me talking about dashboards. Perhaps
00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:13.230
somebody does, I don't know. I mean, DK, just
00:47:13.230 --> 00:47:18.269
before we finish off, I was playing with it yesterday
00:47:18.269 --> 00:47:21.090
and I was thinking, I am not finding this easy
00:47:21.090 --> 00:47:25.769
to monitor the market. I don't want to be overly
00:47:25.769 --> 00:47:28.889
simplistic about it, right? But whatever I thought
00:47:28.889 --> 00:47:30.769
this was going to be, this is not what it was.
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:34.679
If not, it's a very, very early stage prototype.
00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:36.679
I'm surprised that they've released it at this
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:38.300
point, to be honest, because there's clearly
00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.260
a lot of work to be done in actually joining
00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:43.579
the data together. So you can think, OK, we've
00:47:43.579 --> 00:47:46.119
got a lot of research in this area about engineering.
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.500
We've not got a lot of teaching spaces. Perhaps
00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:51.380
we could safely expand engineering there, because
00:47:51.380 --> 00:47:53.199
this is what local employers think. But we're
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.739
a long, long way off that. That's it for this
00:47:57.739 --> 00:48:00.300
week. Remember to read about more. That's it
00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:02.420
for this week. To read more about anything we've
00:48:02.420 --> 00:48:03.940
talked about today, you'll find links in the
00:48:03.940 --> 00:48:07.579
show notes on wonky .com. Do subscribe, just
00:48:07.579 --> 00:48:09.139
search for the higher education show wherever
00:48:09.139 --> 00:48:11.739
you get your podcasts. And if you want to get
00:48:11.739 --> 00:48:14.320
ahead of everyone else on everything that's going
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.550
on in UKHG. head over to One Key, click subscriptions
00:48:17.550 --> 00:48:21.449
to find out more. Huge thanks to DK, Matt, Pam,
00:48:21.769 --> 00:48:24.289
Michael Salmon lurking behind the scenes making
00:48:24.289 --> 00:48:26.789
it all happen. We'll be back next week. Until
00:48:26.789 --> 00:48:28.050
then, stay one key.