[upbeat music] This is the "Head Rush Podcast" with Paul Frantz.
Welcome to the "Head Rush Podcast." I'm Paul Frantz, and I played 11 years in the NFL. And at the "Head Rush Podcast," we talk about everything related to brain trauma and brain health and wellness. We focus on traumatic brain injury sustained through repeated head impacts, RHI, and repeated blast exposure, RBE, for our men and women who serve in the Armed Forces. We discuss chronic traumatic encephalopathy, CTE, and we cover how brain injuries can and will cause mental health issues such as depression, addiction, lack of executive function, memory loss, even suicide ideation, as well as degenerative and neurological issues. Our mantra is how to cope and find hope, and we focus our energy on finding therapies and sharing hope through education and by raising awareness. And please like, subscribe, and share if you will. It will help us reach our goal of helping people suffering with traumatic brain injury. Our guest today is Robert Gallery. Robert is a former professional, uh, football player and a 2023 College Football Hall of Fame inductee. And he played, uh, collegiate football at the University of Iowa. Actually, uh, I was just talking to, uh, a guy that I played with years before. He played at Iowa years before Robert, so, uh, a good, good friend of mine, Joe Mott from the New York Jets. And, um,
and, and you're, you're gonna understand, I- I'm just a kid from New Hampshire that played 11 years in the NFL. This guy that we have on right now, if you ever heard of the Outland Trophy, um, it's, it's actually given to the... It's, it's the best interior lineman, right, Robert? Uh, uh, for, for that year, right?
Correct. O- offense or defense, correct. Yes.
So, um, I, I was dear friends, I'm dear friends with Chad Hennings.
Yeah.
He was, he was an Air Force, uh, guy, and he was an Outland Trophy winner as well. So, uh, uh, I know the caliber that you, you know, that you play with. So that was, that's all... Do you, did you, um, do you know the history of the O- Outland? Did they give you a hist- a walk down history lane when you, uh, uh, won it?
Uh, for sure. Yeah. I don't know if I could recite it correctfully, but yes, I know the, the history of it and where it came from, how it came about, and then obviously all the, the, the greats before me, right? And Chad was at my induction, um-
Was he?
Yep.
Yeah.
So I know, I know him. I've talked with him. Obviously looked up to him. But yes, there's, uh, quite a rich history of what that award means and was honored to, uh, to win it.
Yeah. So, so John Outland apparently played in 1898. [chuckles] But they, they, they started doing... It, it, it... This, the Outland Trophy is the third oldest award in collegiate, in major collegiate awards in, uh, football. So congratulations. That's, that's a big feat, so.
Appreciate it.
All right. So you were actually second overall in the 2004 draft, and you played eight seasons in the NFL with the Oakland Raiders and the Seattle Seahawks. Now, um, following, um, Robert's professional career, he experienced mental health challenges associated with re- repeated head injuries,
and you got into, uh, alcohol dependency, uh, uh, apparently. Um, I, I just...
Yeah. We can talk. [chuckles] Uh, he has publicly shared that ibogaine treatment, a plant-based medicine, was a significant part of his personal recovery. He later, later co-founded Athletes for CARE to support other athletes navigating similar, similar post-career challenges and to advocate for research and awareness,
um, around athlete mental health. Robert, it's good, it's great to have you on the "Head Rush Podcast." Thanks for joining us.
Yeah. Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Appreciate, uh, appreciate you having me on.
Ab- absolutely. So I, I would say that
your life after football is probably gonna be the, the most, the more rewarding, um, uh, it, it, it, you think about it. You're only... How, how old are you?
46. Just turned 46 in July.
Okay. So you got another 40, 42 years left, so a lot longer than you played football. But you're, you're gonna, you know... The life after football is, I bet, gonna be more rewarding for you than your accomplishments on the field. Um, but you, you carry some, you know, we all carry some, some phenomenal memories, but, uh, what you are doing now is so important, so thank you, you know, s- for being that advocate. Um, all right. Now, I want you to... I wanna let you loose on, uh, a little bit of your football career. Did you start in, like, seven, seven years old, or did you start in high school? Uh, and then take us, you know, take us right through your career.
Yeah. So, you know, I grew up in a, a small town in Northeast Iowa. Um, you know, just a typical farm family. My, my parents farm. My mom was a nurse. Uh, small, small town high school, public school football, right? We had... I had 34 kids in my graduating high school class, so that gives you an idea of how small we were. Um, but there was five towns that-
Did you, did you play 11, did you play 11-man football, or were... [chuckles]
We did. We did play 11-man. We were the smallest class for a while, and then the second smallest class as far as, uh, the football classes go. But no, I started, right, you know, obviously times have changed, as you know, but we didn't have Pop Warner. We didn't have all that, you know, flag football, none of that stuff. So seventh grade was the first time besides playing, playing football at recess, right? Uh, seventh grade was the first organized football I played. First time putting on a pads, putting on a helmet, really learning much, uh, learning the ins and out of football besides, like I said, uh, being in elementary school on the recess, running go routes every play and just trying to out-jump everybody. Uh, so, uh, my, my initial, um, you know,
introduction into football was great. We had a, you know, it was, uh, we didn't know any better, right? We, we weren't very good. Uh, we were all awkward and growing and not strong and, you know, didn't like to get hit, all the things. Uh, but that, that's where my, my career started. I, I remember, you know, having fun doing it. You know, I had old- two older brothers that played, so by the time I was getting to that age, I had older brothers that were in high school, uh, so, right? So I'm learning to play football and then I'm going to the Friday night football game and watching my o- older brothers play, which is a big deal.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and so the love for football, you know, kind of started there. Uh, but it wasn't just football, right? I did football during football season. I ran track during track season. I played baseball in the summer. Uh, you know, I did, I did all the sports. I played basketball. Uh, and so-
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I think, uh, our family, I had two, like I said, two older brothers. I had an older sister. Uh, all, that's what our family did. We did sports. And so as time went on, uh, I got into high school. Uh, my oldest brother went on and played a couple years at a, uh, football at a Division III school. Uh, and, and so, you know, my love for it grew 'cause I was going and watching him play, right? Then my, my second older brother, Nick, he, he got a full-ride scholarship, the first athlete ever at our school to get a full ride to play sports, uh, out of our school, right? And, and went to the University of Iowa as a punter. And actually went as a tight end and a punter, but ended up being a four-year starter as a punter, All Big Ten punter. Uh, and, and so I was around it, right? My sister was very athletic. Led the state, I think three years in a row for blocked shots in basketball, uh, and then won the state three years in a row in the high jump, right? So it was just, uh, I think that was our identity. So I, I said-
You, you did or your sister did?
My sister did.
Oh, really?
Yeah. So, so, and funny story, so she was, like I said, she was, you know, won the state in our, in our class, I believe three years in a row in the high jump. And so she was two years older than, or is two years older than I am, and when I got to be a freshman, I'm like, "Man, I'm gonna high jump," 'cause my brother Nick did it, right? My sister did it. And, and so I, I could jump, so I was like, "I'm gonna do it." Well, we would go in for track practice and go into the gym, and I'd be practicing with my sister, right? 'Cause we were the few that did it. Well, she would put, you know, put it up for her, and she'd go jump, do her practice jumps, and then we'd have to go up and we'd have to lower it down so I could practice mine, right? So there was a point where she was out-jumping me when I started. Um, and I, I give her credit 'cause I ended up getting second in state my junior year at six feet five inches. Uh, still have the school record. Uh, so, you know, I just, I, I think we were just all-around athletes, uh, in our family. And, and so as time went on, like I said, my brother Nick got a full ride to the University of Iowa. I was in, you know, in, in middle school, junior high at this time, going to watch him play, and then I remember getting into, you know, putting on the, the JV team as a freshman, the JV football team. I'd play my JV football game on a Friday night. We'd get my parents' camper and we'd drive, right? I remember this one in particular 'cause I got done with the game, I jumped in the camper with my, uh, my sister and my younger brother and my parents, and we drove to Happy Valley, uh, Penn State, right? 16 or 18, whatever it was. We drove all night to get there, watched my brother play at Penn State, got back in the camper, drove all the way back home. My dad went back to farming. We got ready for school. So that was kind of our life growing up, and it was awesome, right?
That's cool.
I got to be a part of it. And so as high school came on, you know, I got played, uh, played varsity as a sophomore, which we laugh about 'cause no one ever did that, right? The head coach never brought anybody up, but luckily for me, uh, the head coach at that time, his son was in my class, and so he brought his son up and me up. So I played varsity as a sophomore, uh, and just, I just, I just loved it. I loved everything about, uh, football, obviously seeing what my, my brothers had done, and just, just sports in general, right? It was, it was just back when it didn't matter, right? You'd go out, play Friday night-
Mm-hmm
... do the best you could. Uh, and so I remember a coach, uh, assistant coach at the time telling me, it was an off-season workout, and it stuck with me, uh, Coach Slosh, and he, he said, "Man, if you keep working, you got a chance. You're big enough, right? You're so athletic. You got a chance to go on and do this." And I remember thinking, "Oh, wow," right? The first guy that maybe really believed in me besides my parents and my siblings. And so I never let that go. And so as I got to be a junior and a senior and, you know, my brother's at the University of Iowa having success, uh, and then went on and, and w- and was in some NFL camps. You know, I'm sending out highlight videos, uh, on VHS to different schools 'cause I was not highly recruited. You know, luckily, because of my brother, the university knew who I was, right? And so we would send them a tape, but they, they'd look, um, but, uh, wasn't really very heavily recruited. Iowa recruited me as a senior. Ended up getting a s- uh, scholarship offer from Iowa. Uh, was offered by Purdue, uh, Northwestern, and, and Iowa State, you know. So back there was no stars and no, you know, but I was a, uh-
Mm-hmm.
... I was 6'8", 210 pounds, super broad shoulders and, and athletic. Could, you know, dunk a basketball and, and one, and like I said, had the school record in the high jump, so I was, uh, I was an athlete.
Yeah.
And so, you know, finally my senior year, uh, you know, after the football season, I got offered a scholarship by Iowa, and that's how I ended up there. I, uh, you know, I'd, I'd gotten those other offers, but I, I wanted to, you know, I loved Iowa football.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I had an uncle, I joke that I had an uncle in the '80s that played for Iowa State, never rooted for him. I was just, I was always an Iowa fan, right? That was my team in state, and I would never, never waver on my support for them. And so,
uh, committed to the University of Iowa. I was actually offered by Hayden Fry's staff, then he retired, as, as we all know. He was there for a couple decades. Uh, and then, you know, I remember being at home wondering, "Man, is this new staff gonna want me?" And then Coach Ferentz was hired, and they extended that offer to, to be out there. And so my first year, 1999, was the, the first year that Coach Ferentz came on to the University of Iowa as a head coach, um, and, and, and, and he's still there today, right? So that says a little bit-
Mm-hmm.
... about that program and that man as a person. But,
you know, got, got through high school, got down there to the University of Iowa, and I was a nobody, right? Like I said, I was, I think I showed up at 240 pounds soaking wet that day, 'cause they had told me, "You need to gain weight," right? I was 210-
[laughs]
... ish in high school, and I remember before we checked in that, that first day of rookie camp, I chugged, uh, almost two gallons of water because they had made it very clear that you need to put on as much weight as you can. And so I chugged a bunch of water. I think I weighed in right at 240, uh, full of water. Um, but that's, that kind of started my, my career there. And, um, like I said, it was Coach Ferentz's first year, new staff, right? My, my freshman year, my red shirt year, 'cause I red shirted my first year. We were 1 and 10. It was a rebuilding of a program. Uh, and so, you know, I just, I just wanted to be the best I could be. My parents instilled that in me. Um, I, I never worried about or thought about going to the NFL. I honestly didn't. We never watched the NFL that much, you know. For a long time, we only had four channels at our house on the farm, so it's not like I was catching a bunch of NFL games. But I, uh, you know, in all honesty, I never really thought about it. I just wanted to be in the moment the best I could be, and that's kind of what my parents taught me, to worry about today, right? Worry about getting better today, move on to the next day. And so it was fun. I was getting my butt kicked by all these older guys, um, but as the years went on, I red shirted, then I ended up starting the next year at tight end. Uh, played, uh, first four games starting at tight end. Had some line guys get hurt. They came, Coach Ferentz brought me in, said, "What do you think about moving? We need you at tackle. Think you'd be good. Here's the reason why." Right? I, now at this point, I'm up to 285 pounds, you know, almost 300 pounds, uh, and I was just, "Yes, sir." Right? I just, you know, "If you think that's best for the team and me, I- I'll do it." And so, you know, that started. You know, that first year was rough. I'm going against, you know, fifth-year seniors that are, are All-Americans. You know, Fred Wake- Wakefield was, uh, uh, a senior that year. My first game at line, got my butt kicked. Um, you know, obviously very humbling, but I just kept working.
It made, it made you better, though.
100%, right? You go from-
Right.
... as, as you know, you go from hoping, right, like as an offensive lineman, but, uh, you know, obviously a little different from you, but you know the other side of it. Uh, you go from, "I hope I only give up a couple pressures," or, "Oh, one sack is good," you know, to-
Right.
... "Hey, that dude was within four feet of the quarterback." You know, the standard changes. And, and so I did. As time went on, right, just worked with a great group of people. I've, I had great coaches, right? The staff at the University of Iowa, Coach Ferentz obviously is a, uh, a very well-known offensive line coach, um, knows his stuff. He's a good teacher. Uh, had great, great, uh, line coaches. And so by my junior year, we were stacked, right? We had built the program up to, from a 1 and 10 to 3 and 7 to, uh, 7 and 5 to my, you know, what would have been my junior year, we were 11 and 1 going into the bowl game.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm playing with, you know, Brad Banks at quarterback. I'm playing with four other linemen on the offensive line that were drafted and/or in, uh, NFL camps. Like, we were good. Like, we-
Mm-hmm.
... we, we were the zone-
Yeah.
... uh, the zone blocking guys, right? All big guys like me that came in as tight ends, and they built us in. Chris Doyle-
Right.
... was our strength coach, built us into these monsters that could run and were strong. Um-
Right.
And, and so
get through, you know, through that, get to my senior, you know, get to the end of my junior year. You know, coach brings me in, says, "You have a chance to go early in the draft. I think you could get better. You know, obviously we want you to stay." I, I, at that point, again, I, I sound ignorant or arrogant or whatever it is, I had never thought about it. Until he said that to me, I'm like, "I got a year left. Like, I know I can get better." Um, and I remember saying to him, he said, "You know, they're saying you could be a top 10 pick." And I'm like, "Well, do you think I could be higher?" You know, 'cause it was just that mentality, right? What's next? What can I do better? You know, well, 10's great, but could I be one or two? You know, I just remember asking that. And he goes, "I think you could." You know, and so I decided to stay for my senior year. Obviously, that worked out well. Ended up being the second pick, uh, in the draft, and, and, you know, like, won the Outland. Uh, all that stuff comes because of the success our team had, the guys I played with, the coaches I played for.
Mm-hmm.
But like you said, lived that, went from a nobody getting my butt handed to me to, right, just toying with guys. Just, that was the, the, the-
Mm-hmm.
... great part about, you know, developing like that. It was fun. Every ounce of it was fun because I knew I was stronger, faster, more technically sound, uh, and, and, you know, things paid off, and, and so that kind of took me through my college career.
Real quick, you, you said you, you liked tooling the guys. Uh, our, our, uh, offensive center, uh, Johnny Garrett, and, uh, uh, with, I'm talking back in '87- His joke was he would hold the nose tackle off and light Donnie McPherson's cigar behind, you know, the, behind the line of scrimmage. It was hilarious. But, uh,
uh, uh, that you just took me for a walk down memory lane because when I got to Syracuse, we were 65th in the nation in '83, and then we ended up 11, 11-0 and one, uh, and, you know, played in the Sugar Bowl. So, um, yeah, that, that's, that's a pretty... It was... And I never thought I was gonna get drafted. I hadn't known. I had no idea. Um, anyway, um, that's... Let me ask you a question. In all of this,
uh, I mean, and, and, uh, your story, I don't hear... I hear a kid that was unassuming. I hear a kid was, that was humble. I hear a kid that, uh, about a kid that was a great athlete. And you, I hear a kid that competed against himself. But I don't hear a kid that was depressed and, and, um, had addictive,
uh, personalities or, or, or, or anything like that.
Mm-hmm.
When, when did that start?
Yeah, I think some of that was there, but it was healthy, right? I was-
Right.
... right, as I got older, yeah, we'd go, we'd go drink a bunch of Coors Lights after the game, right? We enjoyed it.
Mm-hmm.
And that was, right, I know I could drink 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 of them and be fine, right? But it wasn't... That was a night after the game. Hey, now it's time to get serious. We gotta... That, that wasn't a Monday night, Tuesday night, Thursday night, right? That was, "Hey, let's go celebrate. We deserve this."
Right.
Uh, um-
Right.
You know?
Your, your adrenaline's still going, so-
Exactly.
... 18 was no problem.
Exactly. And then, you know, as far as the mental health side of it, I think the first time, like you said, it was just fun till a certain point. There was no... There was pressure that I put on myself, but after that conversation with Coach Ferentz after my junior year, right, and they said, "Hey, there, you could be a t-" Uh, you know, I was so unassuming. Like, "You could be a top 10 pick." I remember from that point on, you know, I think something shifted in my brain that I gotta be perfect, right?
Mm-hmm.
It wasn't as fun my senior year because everybody's talking about it every week. Everyone's saying, "This is, this guy came back." You know, it's, uh, part of the pressure of, of having success. Uh, and so I remember, like, you know, I had... There was a, a general manager that was friends, uh, with Coach Ferentz that was in our facility, and I was talking to him about it, and, and he could tell I was, like, spinning on it. Like, "No, I had 70 plays. I, my hands were wide on that play," or, "I gave up a pressure," or, "I got a holding call." And I would stew on it, and it would wreck me. And he left a card, uh, it was Scott Pioli from the New England Patriots, and, and he left-
Yeah.
... his business card in my locker after we had talked for, like, an hour and just wrote on there, you know, from the movie, "Lighten up, Francis," right? 'Cause he told me, like, "Listen, dude, you're doing a good job," and I'll never forget that 'cause we had this long conversation, and I... You know, that was just my mentality. I think it was, it was healthy to a point because that was what was driving me, but... So from that point on, it was, it was like, "No, you gotta be great. You gotta be perfect." Um, but all the other stuff, it was just, to me, that was just my inner drive. And, and so-
Mm-hmm.
... really until, you know, yes, I had,
uh, you know, looking back on the brain health part of it, you know, yes, I got my bell rung, seeing stars, wobbling. We love, like you, I'm sure, we love that, right? That, that was a sign-
Oh, yeah.
... of we're doing it right, right?
Yeah.
The, the half-line drill, taking on a linebacker at full speed, Tra- Chad Greenway, great player, great pro, right? Him and I were both hard-headed dudes. We both led with our head, and we would, like, play it giggling, right?
Yeah.
As we're both stumbling back to the play because we knew, "Oh, I got him to, I got him to shift back a, a, a yard and a half," or, or, "He stood me up," and, and we loved that stuff. So never really thought of what it was doing to me. Uh, and it wasn't really till, you know, I get in the league, right? And so I go from a very stable situation at the University of Iowa. I had the same coaches for five years, uh, and then I get into the league and, right, I've got a, a different head coach almost every year, right? Different system-
Mm-hmm.
... different line coach, right? So things are, are, are now are, are mounting mentally, physically, right? As you know, right, we're good, all right, unless you're just a f- absolute freak, a guy that can get out of bed and do it, which I'm not, and I don't think you are.
Uh-uh.
Right?
No.
We had to work at it. You have to be in a system. Unless you're that guy, man, it takes a, it takes time. It takes time to, uh, to know the scheme, to, to be good in that scheme, to, you know, all the things. And so I think year after year, things were mounting for me because you wanna have success, right? I'm used to this-
I think so.
... stable situation at the University of Iowa. I'm used to doing, um, technique that, that obviously fared very well for me, and now you got every year a new guy coming in that has all the answers, right? That's telling-
Uh-huh.
... "Oh, do this," or, "We're gonna set like this," or, "We're gonna do this." And so, you know, as time went on, you know, that stuff mounted, and, and I think that's when,
you know, there was some years of depression, right? When we were, you know, the-
Yeah.
... my third year in the league, they brought back Art Shell, uh, uh, you know, as a head coach, and Art Shell was a-
Right.
... a great head coach, uh, you know, in his heyday. Um, he had been out of coaching for 20-some years, right? Uh, we had an offensive coordinator who, uh, the, it's just the reality of it, he had been running a bed and breakfast for 25 years.
Wow.
No dis- no disrespect to him. You know football has changed, and that's a hard situation to be into, right? And so, yeah, I think that year was the first year, I mean, I s- I started talking to a therapist 'cause I was, I was drowning that, that depression and, and those feelings with beer, uh, you know, because you get done with a game, it doesn't go away, so the day off, you do, you know, you, you put down it again 'cause it's just, you know-
Yeah.
... the mental side of it, right? You wanna be successful, you wanna win, all the things that we, you know, y- getting paid is not what y- you go to the league for, right? Yes, it's great. Set up your family.
Right.
Man, yeah, people that say, "Oh, you're getting paid, it shouldn't matter," but it matters. Like, anyone that cares, it matters. Uh, and-
Yes, absolutely.
And so that was, you know, kinda my introduction to that, and then as-
... my years in the league went on, you know, now I'm, you know, I'm getting in the vehicle after a game, my wife's getting in, and I'm l- you know, losing my shit over her having the window down or up or not what I wanted, right? And I'm snapping at her, and she's like, "What's wrong with you?" She's probably had a few drinks at the game, enjoying herself like she should, and I'm just, you know, angry, right? And, and we're going to a restaurant, and someone's saying something or doing something or, and then, you know, flipping my trigger flips to where we get up-
Mm-hmm
... and leave because I'm gonna fight some... You know, so just, I think emotional things were coming up, um, as the years went on, but I just equated that to, hey, I really care, uh, deeply about what we're doing. I was never on a winning team. I was never on a team that made the playoffs. I mean, we were never even close to 500. Uh, and so-
Mm-hmm
... as the years go on, that wears on you, uh, mentally as a, as a, as an athlete, as a professional. And so that's when I started seeing some of these things pop up, but really never understood them till I had retired.
This episode of the "Head Rush Podcast" is brought to you by our personal doctor and team of doctors, uh, Dr. Mizel, Mizel DeMayo, and she's with the Paradise Behavioral Health, and we are in the-
Brain Well Program, which is also part of the Millennium Health Center. Uh, Dr. Mark Gordon, you've seen him on Joe Rogan and even on our show, the "Head Rush Podcast."
[laughs]
Um,
and, uh, hormones, and Mizel is awesome. We love her.
She's, she's our doctor of psychiatry. She works with the Mark Gordon program with the hormones and, uh, and she, she adds her twist of genetics and, um, and it's, it's, it basically is melding two wonderful, uh, uh, mediums together, and we're getting great help from Dr. Mizel DeMayo.
So please check out her website at paradisebehavioral.com.
She's-
Look up the Brain Well Program. Get involved.
She's sponsoring us. They're, they're sponsoring us for the next year, so we are excited to, to have them on board and, uh, and, and shout the new, the good news to everybody, uh, th- that is watching these broadcasts, so.
Is she helping you, Paul?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
She's helping me, so go check her out. Paradisebehavioralhealth.com.
I have not.
Oh, that's a great movie. Uh, "Quiet Explosions." It's a, it's a, it features Andrew Marr. He was a Green Beret. He is a Green Beret. A blast explosi- uh, explosive specialist, and, uh,
uh, before his fourth, uh, tour to Afghanistan, he was kinda grounded because he, they,
he had been affected so much with the repeated blast exposures and all that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, uh, anyway, that's a great movie.
Oh.
Gives, gives you a lot of hope. Now, and you're about hope too. Um,
you know,
I've done a lot of studying
about the repeated head impacts. I know what they can do, and it's interesting that
trauma, it doesn't have to be physical to start the, the, the i- inflammation in the brain, you know, the cytokines and all that crazy stuff. Now, you,
wha- tell me your journey to, to the, to the point where you felt you needed to do something pretty extreme, like a plant-based medicine that nobody or people were just starting to gain interest in. Um, talk about that.
Yeah, so when I retired, right, I went through all this stuff that all of us do, right? Some of us on different levels, but the identity, right? We go from, you know, we're very, you know, black and white in our thinking, you know, if I can say it that way, right? It's like, "Hey-"
Yeah.
"... this is what you gotta do. This is when you gotta do it," right? You get a schedule.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Like, there is, we are trained. We are rewired to think about, right? You know, I do it now where I'm, I got a dentist appointment, and I'm sitting in the parking lot 30 minutes early because I know, uh, I'm a piece of shit if I'm late, right? But I have the trauma of, I can't walk into a meeting 30 seconds late, right? They're gonna-
Mm-hmm
... fire me or punish me, you know? So, all those things I got done, and I was, you know, transitioning to being a father and being at home and dealing with young kids and, and not being in the, you know, per se, in the office, right? To where if you had a bad day, you start a fight at practice, and you try and, you know, break someone's jaw, uh, you know, or someone that goes too hard when they're not supposed to. That's how we deal with, you know, taking our aggression out and those things. And, and so now I'm home, and these things are happening. And so I think it's just, hey, I'm just a, you know, I'm another former athlete that can't handle that. He didn't play long enough, didn't accomplish what he thought he should, blah, yada, all on and on and on. Uh, but as one, as time went on,
you know, other things were popping up. Yes, I was coping with alcohol more and more because, you know, as even in my highest days of stardom, right? Coming off the Outland Trophy and traveling around the country to these award shows, I did not like that attention, right?
Mm-hmm.
I was very anxious around it, um, social anxiety, all, all those things, right? So, on the good side of it or the bad side of it, right? When people are booing you leaving games, throwing beer cans at your car, you know, saying something to you in a restaurant after a game, right? I didn't like any of it, any attention at all. And so-
Mm-hmm
... you know, going to events, going to my kids' school functions or fundraisers, right? Like, how was I able to function and be somewhat social was with alcohol, uh, a ton of alcohol, right?
Right.
And my wife joked because she's like, "You're, you know, you seem happy and free when you're loaded," right? "And you can handle a lot of booze." And, and, you know, we can laugh about it now, but it, that's what it was. And so, that was going on. Uh, then it led to, you know, times that, you know, I was aware of these things happening, but we would go, you know, we went to a restaurant. My mother-in-law was in town visiting, went to a restaurant, and we had said we were gonna sit inside. Uh, and so
we walked in, and then my wife, the sun popped out as we were talking to the hostess, and she said to the hostess, "Hey, let's sit outside instead." And I remember going dark, right? I was so enraged that she changed her mind, and I just remember, 'cause I remember looking at my mother-in-law, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to hurt her, and they're just look, both looking at me like, "What is wrong with you?" And, and I was aware- Uh-huh ... enough to know, but this reaction happened, and so that started happening a lot, right? These reactions to my kids laughing, right? I'm sitting in my chair in my house, and my children are laughing like they should be, giggling, right? Right. And I'm sitting in a chair,
scratching, trying to scratch the skin off my hands because I wanted to hurt them to make them stop. And I, and I'm aware of it enough to know, like, "Hey, this is not a logical thought." It didn't stop the thought, right? But I was aware enough to know, like, "What is wrong with me?" Like, I'm literally losing my mind, right? Why, why is this laughter enraging me so much? And, you know, and I don't say it lightly, but it was the same with my wife, right? Set, set down a coffee cup on the table instead of the counter, and I'd wanna smash her head through a window. And I remember those- Mm-hmm ... feelings coming on, and I'm like, "Man, I'm a terrible human being." So that led to, you know, worse mental health, right? That led to suicidal nightmares because I, I'm a terrible human being, right? Why am I thinking these things? What is wrong with me? I, I literally thought in the moment I was losing my mind. And, and- Uh-huh ... and so as that continued on, so now I'm not sleeping very well. Uh, I didn't sleep well anyway, but sleeping less, right? So, you know, in, in, in reality, my brain health is getting worse, but I didn't wanna have suicide nightmares. I didn't wanna think about killing myself or hurting my family. Uh- Uh-huh ... and that led to suicidal ideation during the day, and there was a point, uh, finally, and I just kept it internal. You know, I was, you know, the alcohol would help it go away, would help me fall asleep, uh, at times. I wasn't an everyday drunk, but when I went, right, I started drinking tequila 'cause I wanted to lose weight, and I'd drink- Mm-hmm ... go to my neighbors, I'd take a bottle, and I'd come home with an empty bottle, right? And that's just the way it was. Mm-hmm. And, and so finally, I had a breakdown one morning. We were working out, uh, in, in our driveway, and I remember just falling on the ground, and I was crying, and my wife's like, "What is wrong?" And I just let, I told her everything. She knew I'd been struggling. She saw the signs. She didn't know about the, the suicide, you know, ideation- Mm-hmm ... and dreams and all that. And I said, "I'm, I'm losing my mind. I need help." Like, "I, I, I literally think I'm losing my mind." And so from that day forward, right, we, she's like, "Okay, we need to, you know, what can we do?" Right? Uh, and so we text, uh, took steps to, you know, do what we thought was best, right? I had a friend who was an addict who had been through some healing, uh, uh, on his own, and, and, and I reached out to him, right? A couple friends that I knew had been through some of their own dark times. Um, I called the, I, my wife said, "You need to just talk to a therapist." Okay, you know, I wanted to do it. Called the suicide hotline through the NFL, uh, which is not a funny story, but kinda is now.
They, you know, they ask, "Are, are you gonna hurt yourself?" I'm like, "Well, I'm calling the fucking suicide hotline," you know? Um, but I'm like, "No, of course, no, I'm not, but I need help," right? "Well, okay, well, within seven days, we'll get you a list of insurance-approved therapists you can talk to." And I remember slamming the phone down, right? Thank God they've changed their... Right? But that was, in that moment, I'm like, "Are you..." I did, I s- slammed the phone down. I was like, "I don't have seven effing days," you know, I told my wife, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I, I learned, but I, I wanted to be better, so I just, I didn't take that for a no. I just, you know, I just went to the next thing. "What can we do?" And it just happened all this coincided with, uh, my worker's comp case that I was, you know, like you, you know, eight years into fighting, uh, to, to gathering information and to getting it taken care of, and, and my doctor or my lawyer had me get a brain scan. And so right after all this happened, I was in the, in with the, the neu- neurologist at the Amen Clinic, took my brain scan. My wife and I came in for the results, and,
you know, they put a, a scan up of a normal, healthy 35-year-old brain at this time and mine. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, I tell the story, but my wife's crying, right? Just tears running down her eyes 'cause mine looked like someone had taken a baseball bat to it, right? And I'm laughing. And, and she looked at me, and she's like, "What in the fuck are you laughing at?" You know? And I'm like, "I'm not crazy. That's what," right? Right. Right. So for, for me, it was like an answer. And, and I was- Yeah ... I was like, "Oh," 'cause I literally, you know, thought I was losing my mind. Um, and so from that point on, you know, I told the doctor, "Don't give me the doctor BS," right? All the stuff you and I don't want. "Shoot me straight. Is this bad? Is it, you know, is this light? Have you seen way worse?" And he's like, "I've seen worse, but this is pretty bad. Like, you're right up there." Um- Uh-huh ... "Okay, well, what does that mean?" I said again, and I was in that, just that frame of mind, like, almost threatening him, like, "Tell me the truth. Tell me the effing truth," right? Like, "What does this mean?" And, and he, and he said to me, he goes, "Well, with your symptoms, your scan, obviously we can't, you know, quote unquote diagnose you with CTE till, till after you've passed." He's like, "You have CTE." He's like, "You, if you don't do something about this, uh, and, and work towards being healthier, you're gonna be a statistic." And, and I knew- Uh-huh ... exactly what that meant. Uh, and so, you know, that kind of flipped the switch for me, right? I went from this angry, depressed guy to instantly like, "Okay, what do we do?" Right? And so I started- Sure ... a year and a half of anything they told me, right? I'm working with a brain specialist. Um, you know, they told me, "Hey, you're a guy that, you know, 'cause of all the studies in hyperbaric chambers, you're a guy that should be in a hyperbaric chamber every day." So I, I rented a hyperbaric chamber. I was in there for two hours a day for a month. Um- Mm-hmm ... thought there was some improvement, right? Could feel maybe some more sensations, my brain working a little better. I bought one, right? Luckily through my Gene Ops, Gene Upshaw Reimbursement Fund, I bought a hyperbaric chamber.
I'm getting IVs. I'm getting-- I'm doing light therapy. I'm doing all the things that they tell me to do. And, and over that year and a half, I went from kind of excited, you know, like, "Okay, I'm gonna do this." I'm like, like we do, right? Tell me how we're gonna fix this, and we'll fix it. Uh, and, but over time, I was minimally better. Uh, you know, yes, I got my-- I got to where I could actually fall asleep at night and stay asleep, so I did make some improvements. But the, the dark stuff wasn't going away, the depression, the, the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal nightmares. Uh, and so I was in th- then this place till I got to where, like, I'm tired. Uh, I, I don't wanna do this anymore, right? I'm, I'm raging on my family. I'm sitting in the chair. I'm just a non-functioning human being at times, right? I'm going places to take my kids to soccer practice and calling my wife and saying, "Where's that at again?" And I'm five miles on the other side of town when it was two minutes down the street. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I got to the point where I was, uh, I didn't have much hope. Uh, and I just happened to be, at that time, I started listening to, uh, a lot of military podcasts. I felt- Mm-hmm ... uh, obviously, my dad, I had family in the, in the military. My dad fought in Vietnam. I was a huge supporter of the military, uh, and always have been. Uh, have a lot of admiration for them. And I found, uh, the one I was drawn to was the "Team Never Quit" podcast that Marcus Luttrell does. Mm-hmm. And so I was listening- Right ... to that and the "Never Quit" stories, and I'm hearing, I think I listened to 150 of them or 200 of them, and the guys that, right, same, same stuff, right? We're talking about, uh, br- you know, brain damage, right? Now that I know that's what's causing this, a lot of these issues. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then alcoholism and suicidal ideation, all the things. I'm like, "Man, I'm just like these dudes," right? And so, and they were all talking about their "Never Quit" stories, and it just happened to be, uh, one of the, um, probably the 200th one I listened to, uh, there was a guy by the name of Marcus Capone on there. He played college football, uh, was a 13-year Navy SEAL, and he, um, you know, I literally s- called my wife, 'cause I wasn't with her when I was listening to it, and said, "I'm on the radio. Go, turn this on and listen to it. It's me," right? I was in that head space, and I'm like, "Oh, that's me, that's me, that's me." Literally thought I was talking. And- Hmm ... so he talked about his story. He did all the stuff I did, and I'm like, "Okay, it's me. I did that. I did the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I did this, I did that." I'm checking every box as he's talking. And then he talked about getting taken to Mexico, doing this plant medicine called ibogaine, uh, how it changed his life, and then he started a foundation to help other special operators. And I was, uh, I mean, I called my wife all excited. "I found it," right? "This is it." Uh, I, you know, I had hope. And she's like, "Okay," you know, 'cause I'd done this before, right? Found things or through the mood swings, and she's like, "Okay, let's talk tomorrow." 'Cause I was heading up to, um, we had a vacation home in Tahoe at that point, and I was heading up to give my family a break, go and spend a few days by myself.
So long story short, I emailed him when I got to our cabin. I emailed their foundation, VETS, VE- it's, uh, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, not thinking I'd ever hear from them, but it gave me that hope that night to go to bed. And, and so next day, I get a call from someone on his team, then get a call from Marcus Capone himself.
Uh, talked to him for about a week and, and, and kind of at one point said, "Hold my beer," 'cause he's like, "You can do this and you can do that." And I'm like, "Hold my beer, buddy." Like, "I've done everything you did." Like, you name it, I, you know, I've, I've probably done it. And then finally at, towards the end of that week, he's like, "Hey, I think you'd fit in with this group of people who are taking down for treatment. Uh, I think this could really help you," right? "You sound like us. You, you would fit in." Um, you know, if it's something, you know, I knew nothing about psychedelics. I never tried, uh, anything recreationally, knew nothing about it. Uh, but, uh, during this week, right, there was this, this hope, and so I was like, "Yeah, who can I talk to?" So I talked to some other special operators who had gone. I talked to the doctor- Mm-hmm ... down in Mexico, and I said, "I'm in." Called my wife, said, "Hey, uh, in two, two weeks from now," it was three weeks from the first phone call, I said, "I'm going to Mexico to do this medicine. I don't care what you think. Um, I, I have to do something, uh, otherwise I'm not gonna make it." Same conversation with my parents. "Hey, I don't want your opinion. Um, I c- wanna tell you I love you. I'm going to Mexico to do this medicine called ibogaine, uh, and because if, if, if not, I, I'm afraid w- where that's gonna take me." And so, I did all the things I had to to go down there, right? I had to get off my, you know, I had to go cold turkey and all, antidepressants and everything else I'm on that's not healthy and not smart, but I did not care. Mm-hmm. I was going no matter what, because- Right ... I thought this would, you know, just in my brain, right? The, uh, the, the obsessive, you, you know, just like we are, right? Like, you get on something, you're doing it, right? And so, um, you know, like I said, three weeks after the initial conversation, I was, uh, with a group of special operators in Mexico and went through this treatment that started, uh, a, a lot of healing and changed and saved my life.
So it changed your life?
So for me, instantly it was, right? You, it was a three-day treatment. Uh, for me, I went down there with extreme daily brain fog, um, to almost non-functioning, right? I'm like, you know, I just kept telling them, like, "I'm just stupid." Like, "I can't, I can't think." Mm-hmm. "I can't get s- words out of my mouth. I can't..." Right? That brain fog. And unless you've had brain fog, you, once you have it, you'll, you know, it's like a bad hangover, but 24 hours a day, uh, you know- Right ... the worst hangover you had. Uh- Right ... and so I went down there with terrible brain fog, like the ringing in my ears, right? I really couldn't hear all that well because it was, everything was always ringing. Uh, the, you know, the depression, the,
um, you know, s- the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal ideation, the, the, you know, the, the time sitting in my truck wanting the noise to go away with a, you know, unfortunately, a loaded pistol in my lap because I didn't know any other way to make it stop, right? And I, I couldn't live like that. I was afraid that, that I was some point gonna mess up and, and, and do something to my family, right? So then, uh, you know, uh, so when you think of it that way, it's like, I will never be that man that puts a hand on my family, right? And, but I got close at times, and I'm like, "I'm gonna screw up sometime and do it." And so how do I make this stop? Um, so I come, go to this treatment. And it was. It was like a light switch. I mean, the, the experience is, is tough. But I get home, right? My wife instantly, she met me, uh, when we got back to San Diego, and she, she told me later, she goes, "I, I could see instantly something was different." She's like, "The color in your, in the, in your eyes was back. Like, the way you walked, the smile on your face. Like, the, there was no heaviness." And I felt it, right? Because after the, the, both medicines, ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT, you know, I felt like the ibogaine just turned the, turned the computer off, right? Defragged all this stuff, got rid of... You know, I went through all these different things in my career and whatever, things I thought of failures and traumas and, and then we do the f- you know, was sick that whole next day, and then we do the 5-MeO-DMT, and then the lights came back on. I remember waking up from that trip, uh, with 5-MeO-DMT, and I'm laying in the grass, and I could hear every blade of grass blowing in the wind. I mean, I could hear the ocean, which was five miles away, and I just remember thinking,
thinking nothing. Uh, uh, you know-
Yeah
... there was no, there was no, nothing dark in my head. There was nothing. I just remember like, "Oh, man, this is freeing. Like, how beautiful. Oh, what is that noise?"
Mm-hmm.
And, and as I got home, it was the same thing. It was, right? I was just happy to be alive. I remember noticing the color of the trees and the plants, right? It sounds hokey, you know, like I went and did drugs, and now all of a sudden I'm still floating around. But, you know, it was simple as the morning after we got back, we, I had a call with my therapist and-
This episode of the "Head Rush Podcast" is brought to you by the Patrick Richa CTE Awareness Foundation. Their goal is the, to spread awareness about the dangers of RHI, repetitive head impacts, after losing their son, Patrick, to CTE. Sadly, there are too many like Patrick that have lost their families, jobs, and sometimes their lives. And this foundation is working hard to stop the devastation then c- that can come from not protecting the brain. This foundation provides parents of school-aged children with information about the dangers of sports, concussive sports, and activities which involve head trauma.
They advertise on social media, print media, and billboards. Please follow them on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and share their ads with others. And please visit their website, stopcte.org, to find ways to help people recognize the disease if confronted with it in their family, and how to prevent the suffering that can come to families when a brain is damaged. The website has medical forms to take to doctor's visits and advocacy letters if you want to help make change in your community. And their most recent campaign is geared up to help coaches build brain-healthy teams. You can use the information on stopcte.org website to understand CTE,
live with CTE, and prevent CTE. Please visit. Thank you. And don't knock it.
Stop C-
Good. There you go
... stopcte.org.
[laughs]
The computer wouldn't hook up to the internet in the hotel room. And in, before this treatment, I would have probably thrown the computer through the wall or raged at my wife and what the F's going on-
Mm-hmm
... you know? And I-
Right
... remember she got up. It wasn't, you know, it was one, two minutes before, one minute before, "I'm supposed to be on there two minutes after." And I remember just thinking, "Ah, well. Oh, well. If, you know, if it's not working." And my wife's up running around. I remember her taking off, running out the room to go to the front desk with the computer, and I remember thinking-
Mm-hmm
... "What is wrong with her?" Right? But she had done this for two, three years, right? 'Cause she knew what the reaction was. And so that was the first eye-opening to me, and I remember her running back in sweating, and I, and I had gotten on my phone. It worked. And, but I remember being like, "Babe, you gotta settle down. Like, it's okay. It's not that big of a deal." And sh- I remember just staring at me like, "What are you talking about?" And, and so I think little things like that start happening. Um, and it was-
Kudos to her. Kudos to her for sticking with you through that, you know? That- that's awesome. I know Bob Stern has sat, uh, you know, older couples down, the, with, with the, the gentleman, the guys suffering from CTE or TES or
supposed, whatever. And his first question to the wives is, "Why are you still here?" And it is that, that, that, that, that the caregiver, it's, it's a load unless... So, really quick, and I know I only have a few more minutes of your time. You,
you understood you, you had a problem. You were facing the issues. You knew you had to get help. You sought it out, and you got help. So, that's hope. What about the, the guys, I think of the guys that don't have hope, and they never understand what they're dealing with. Uh, you know, I, I, I liken it to when, uh, at 47 years old, my brain snapped, and that unbridled rage started coming.
Yep.
You know, you know exactly what it is. And, uh, if I had been modeled that, uh, domestic violence was okay, you know, growing up and saw dad, dad hit mom,
I, I prob- in that, in that state, in that rage, I probably would have
followed that model. But fortunately, I, I never touched, you know, a woman and, and anything like that, and I, it wasn't modeled to me. But these guys that are suffering that don't know what's going on, they, they really are, you really are going crazy, and you gotta... There's a chance... Now,
last question.
Why did you start Athletes for Care?
Well, for those exact reasons, right? Because like you, I, I did not have that modeled to me, right? Had loving parents, uh, you know-
Mm-hmm.
... so thank God that wasn't modeled to me as a child, right? Because same thing, and I'd sit in my, like I said, shaking my hands 'cause I, I knew that wasn't right. Um-
Right.
... but, you know, that's what brought me to start Athletes for Care. After this healing and seeing the change, and knowing all these other guys that were going through it and seeing, right, hearing of the guys committing suicide and doing these crazy outlandish things, right? Killing their neighbor or, or their family.
Mm-hmm.
Right? These things that everybody's else is like, "Oh, these messed up ex-football players," right? And I'm like-
No.
... "Dude, this is from our brains." And so, that's the exact reason I started Athletes for Care, is because when someone took my phone call, and in essence, Marcus Amber Capone did, and saved my life, right? That's the reality-
Mm-hmm.
... of them answering that email to their foundation. And I knew other guys, right? I knew I was in the best situation I could be of how I was raised, all these things. My wife, I, I dated in college. She knew the, the 20-year-old Robert. She knew what my soul was, right? So I'm going through all these things. She stayed with me. She, she, she told me one time, it was the greatest thing she ever said to me, she said, "I was never mad at you. I was sad for you because-
Aw.
... I know who you are, who you were." She goes, "I knew it was in there, and I knew this wasn't your fault." And so, for that reason, I started Athletes for Care because of hearing these stories. And, and did I wanna talk about this and, and admit to these things and have my children hear these things? Absolutely not. But if this-
Mm-hmm.
... helps others find hope, right? Because not everything, not all, you know, modern medicine stuff works, right? I tried everything until I heard about this random thing, right? Uh, uh, uh-
Mm-hmm.
... it was on a podcast. I had no hope, and it was probably gonna end very badly. And so, that's my mission with Athletes for Care is, is talking about it so other people feel okay, and that's instantly what happened when we, we started it, right? I'm getting emails, I'm getting calls of, "Dude, thank you for saying that because I live like this, but I think I'm going crazy and no one will understand." And so, the, that's the, the main-
Mm-hmm.
... reason, uh, like you said, for me starting Athletes for Care.
That's awesome. It's, it's, it's powerful what you're doing. Uh, it's needed. It's desperately needed. And, uh, uh, I, I, you know, I, I just got a call about three weeks ago from a guy. He played about the same time I played, and he was hurting. And, uh, I've, I've been able to talk to him and his wife and talk him off the ledge, and he's doing, you know,
Lord willing, he's gonna be doing well, and I'm gonna obviously tell him about, uh, uh, Athletes for Care. Um, and, uh, uh,
Godspeed to the ibogaine research. I mean, if it's, if it's a plant-based medicine that helps the, with the brain, it should be able to be used, you know, worldwide, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And that's the part-
Legally. Legally.
Ab- ab- absolutely. And that's part of the advocacy work I'm doing, right? Not only to help former athletes, uh, you know, find hope in whatever healing that is, right? Whether that's breath-
Right.
... work or cold wa- You know, it's not just psychedelic-assisted therapy, but the advocacy work I've done with the Texas Ibogaine Initiative, now Americans for Ibogaine.
Mm-hmm.
Right? The executive order was signed to fast-track the study of this. I've been, you know, in close... You know, Dr. Nolan Williams, who did this study, uh, uh, with ibogaine on these special ops guys and, and proved that it creates new neural pathways. There is science-
Was, was that the one that started at Stanford and then down in Tijuana and back to Stanford?
Exactly, right? I was very... I'm very close with those people and, and, and what N- Dr. Nolan Williams did, God rest his soul, uh, he became a close friend. But it's scientifically proven what this medicine is doing, and there's others-
Right.
... carrying on his work. Uh, and so that's a big part of it. Like, this stuff should be... We're working to help advocate for this stuff being legal. Uh, I, I truly believe in my heart it will be sooner than later because, uh, it's not just a bunch of former athletes talking about going down and all this psychedelic experience they had, right? Now we are taking FMRIs, brain scans, and showing the new neural pathways-
Mm-hmm.
... showing the creation of white brain matter. Uh-
Right.
... and so that's why this, this movement, especially with ibogaine, is moving forward, and I wanna be a part of it because, uh, like you, I, I don't hold, uh, anger towards football. I love football. My son's playing football. Uh, I love what football did for me, taught me, but it took a lot. Uh, and if-
Yeah.
... there's a way for us to pay it forward to help the next generation, right? It's just like you and I talked, right? Even more in your day, right?
Mm-hmm.
Of what a concussion was, right? We're so much more educated now. And so-
Right. Right.
... if we can get rid of this stigma of psychedelics, uh, the reality is it's one of the highest powered anti-inflammatories there is, you know?
Right.
You know? So-
And that's, that's the whole, that's the whole thing, uh, uh, uh, the inflammation. Inflammation causes all of it.
Exactly.
The Alzheimer's, the Parkinson's, the neurodegeneration, the, the ALS, the whole deal.
Yeah.
It starts with inflammation.
Yep.
So-
Yep. So-
Robert.
... it's like you said, this is my... You know, I found, right, like I had a small... You know, it seemed like a huge window in my life was football, um, but when I got done, I was like, "Who am I?" I know, I know who I am now, right? This is my purpose.
Yeah.
Uh, it brings-
Yeah.
... brings me so much joy, right? Even with the hard phone calls, right? The guys calling like you get, right? I get those all the time. But I also get the guys that call, you know, that find some healing or, or call and, and say, "Man, I love you. Thank you for doing this." Like, "You saved my life." Uh, you know, just like I said to Marcus Capone, you know, because that's what this is about, right? It's the community we used to have, and now, uh, passing it forward, and that's what, that's what, you know, my life's work is to be here on out, uh, to be a better human myself, better father and husband, but to help others, um, through my lived experience.
That's awesome. That we, we always leave the listeners with a word of hope, and that was perfect. I, I, I really appreciate that. Robert, I thank you for your time. I know we went a little over. Uh, I'm gonna see you in a couple of days, I b- I believe, so, uh, in, in Tampa, uh, with, uh, with, uh, Bruce Parkman and Bruce and Perry. Obviously, you know those guys, and, uh, they do a-
Yeah.
... a great work, so.
Yeah. Look- looking forward to seeing you in person and, yeah, being a part of that, right? This is, this is, to me-
Yeah.
... it's just education and, and, and helping. You know, we're all doing it in, in our own way to help move this forward so w- we can help deal with these things that, that, this, the cost of what this sport does to us and, and others and, and other people in life, not just football.
Yep. Amen. All right, brother. Robert, it was a ple- pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it very much.
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Welcome to the "Head Rush Podcast." I'm Paul Frantz, and I played 11 years in the NFL. And at the "Head Rush Podcast," we talk about everything related to brain trauma and brain health and wellness. We focus on traumatic brain injury sustained through repeated head impacts, RHI, and repeated blast exposure, RBE, for our men and women who serve in the Armed Forces. We discuss chronic traumatic encephalopathy, CTE, and we cover how brain injuries can and will cause mental health issues such as depression, addiction, lack of executive function, memory loss, even suicide ideation, as well as degenerative and neurological issues. Our mantra is how to cope and find hope, and we focus our energy on finding therapies and sharing hope through education and by raising awareness. And please like, subscribe, and share if you will. It will help us reach our goal of helping people suffering with traumatic brain injury. Our guest today is Robert Gallery. Robert is a former professional, uh, football player and a 2023 College Football Hall of Fame inductee. And he played, uh, collegiate football at the University of Iowa. Actually, uh, I was just talking to, uh, a guy that I played with years before. He played at Iowa years before Robert, so, uh, a good, good friend of mine, Joe Mott from the New York Jets. And, um,
and, and you're, you're gonna understand, I- I'm just a kid from New Hampshire that played 11 years in the NFL. This guy that we have on right now, if you ever heard of the Outland Trophy, um, it's, it's actually given to the... It's, it's the best interior lineman, right, Robert? Uh, uh, for, for that year, right?
Correct. O- offense or defense, correct. Yes.
So, um, I, I was dear friends, I'm dear friends with Chad Hennings.
Yeah.
He was, he was an Air Force, uh, guy, and he was an Outland Trophy winner as well. So, uh, uh, I know the caliber that you, you know, that you play with. So that was, that's all... Do you, did you, um, do you know the history of the O- Outland? Did they give you a hist- a walk down history lane when you, uh, uh, won it?
Uh, for sure. Yeah. I don't know if I could recite it correctfully, but yes, I know the, the history of it and where it came from, how it came about, and then obviously all the, the, the greats before me, right? And Chad was at my induction, um-
Was he?
Yep.
Yeah.
So I know, I know him. I've talked with him. Obviously looked up to him. But yes, there's, uh, quite a rich history of what that award means and was honored to, uh, to win it.
Yeah. So, so John Outland apparently played in 1898. [chuckles] But they, they, they started doing... It, it, it... This, the Outland Trophy is the third oldest award in collegiate, in major collegiate awards in, uh, football. So congratulations. That's, that's a big feat, so.
Appreciate it.
All right. So you were actually second overall in the 2004 draft, and you played eight seasons in the NFL with the Oakland Raiders and the Seattle Seahawks. Now, um, following, um, Robert's professional career, he experienced mental health challenges associated with re- repeated head injuries,
and you got into, uh, alcohol dependency, uh, uh, apparently. Um, I, I just...
Yeah. We can talk. [chuckles] Uh, he has publicly shared that ibogaine treatment, a plant-based medicine, was a significant part of his personal recovery. He later, later co-founded Athletes for CARE to support other athletes navigating similar, similar post-career challenges and to advocate for research and awareness,
um, around athlete mental health. Robert, it's good, it's great to have you on the "Head Rush Podcast." Thanks for joining us.
Yeah. Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Appreciate, uh, appreciate you having me on.
Ab- absolutely. So I, I would say that
your life after football is probably gonna be the, the most, the more rewarding, um, uh, it, it, it, you think about it. You're only... How, how old are you?
46. Just turned 46 in July.
Okay. So you got another 40, 42 years left, so a lot longer than you played football. But you're, you're gonna, you know... The life after football is, I bet, gonna be more rewarding for you than your accomplishments on the field. Um, but you, you carry some, you know, we all carry some, some phenomenal memories, but, uh, what you are doing now is so important, so thank you, you know, s- for being that advocate. Um, all right. Now, I want you to... I wanna let you loose on, uh, a little bit of your football career. Did you start in, like, seven, seven years old, or did you start in high school? Uh, and then take us, you know, take us right through your career.
Yeah. So, you know, I grew up in a, a small town in Northeast Iowa. Um, you know, just a typical farm family. My, my parents farm. My mom was a nurse. Uh, small, small town high school, public school football, right? We had... I had 34 kids in my graduating high school class, so that gives you an idea of how small we were. Um, but there was five towns that-
Did you, did you play 11, did you play 11-man football, or were... [chuckles]
We did. We did play 11-man. We were the smallest class for a while, and then the second smallest class as far as, uh, the football classes go. But no, I started, right, you know, obviously times have changed, as you know, but we didn't have Pop Warner. We didn't have all that, you know, flag football, none of that stuff. So seventh grade was the first time besides playing, playing football at recess, right? Uh, seventh grade was the first organized football I played. First time putting on a pads, putting on a helmet, really learning much, uh, learning the ins and out of football besides, like I said, uh, being in elementary school on the recess, running go routes every play and just trying to out-jump everybody. Uh, so, uh, my, my initial, um, you know,
introduction into football was great. We had a, you know, it was, uh, we didn't know any better, right? We, we weren't very good. Uh, we were all awkward and growing and not strong and, you know, didn't like to get hit, all the things. Uh, but that, that's where my, my career started. I, I remember, you know, having fun doing it. You know, I had old- two older brothers that played, so by the time I was getting to that age, I had older brothers that were in high school, uh, so, right? So I'm learning to play football and then I'm going to the Friday night football game and watching my o- older brothers play, which is a big deal.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and so the love for football, you know, kind of started there. Uh, but it wasn't just football, right? I did football during football season. I ran track during track season. I played baseball in the summer. Uh, you know, I did, I did all the sports. I played basketball. Uh, and so-
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I think, uh, our family, I had two, like I said, two older brothers. I had an older sister. Uh, all, that's what our family did. We did sports. And so as time went on, uh, I got into high school. Uh, my oldest brother went on and played a couple years at a, uh, football at a Division III school. Uh, and, and so, you know, my love for it grew 'cause I was going and watching him play, right? Then my, my second older brother, Nick, he, he got a full-ride scholarship, the first athlete ever at our school to get a full ride to play sports, uh, out of our school, right? And, and went to the University of Iowa as a punter. And actually went as a tight end and a punter, but ended up being a four-year starter as a punter, All Big Ten punter. Uh, and, and so I was around it, right? My sister was very athletic. Led the state, I think three years in a row for blocked shots in basketball, uh, and then won the state three years in a row in the high jump, right? So it was just, uh, I think that was our identity. So I, I said-
You, you did or your sister did?
My sister did.
Oh, really?
Yeah. So, so, and funny story, so she was, like I said, she was, you know, won the state in our, in our class, I believe three years in a row in the high jump. And so she was two years older than, or is two years older than I am, and when I got to be a freshman, I'm like, "Man, I'm gonna high jump," 'cause my brother Nick did it, right? My sister did it. And, and so I, I could jump, so I was like, "I'm gonna do it." Well, we would go in for track practice and go into the gym, and I'd be practicing with my sister, right? 'Cause we were the few that did it. Well, she would put, you know, put it up for her, and she'd go jump, do her practice jumps, and then we'd have to go up and we'd have to lower it down so I could practice mine, right? So there was a point where she was out-jumping me when I started. Um, and I, I give her credit 'cause I ended up getting second in state my junior year at six feet five inches. Uh, still have the school record. Uh, so, you know, I just, I, I think we were just all-around athletes, uh, in our family. And, and so as time went on, like I said, my brother Nick got a full ride to the University of Iowa. I was in, you know, in, in middle school, junior high at this time, going to watch him play, and then I remember getting into, you know, putting on the, the JV team as a freshman, the JV football team. I'd play my JV football game on a Friday night. We'd get my parents' camper and we'd drive, right? I remember this one in particular 'cause I got done with the game, I jumped in the camper with my, uh, my sister and my younger brother and my parents, and we drove to Happy Valley, uh, Penn State, right? 16 or 18, whatever it was. We drove all night to get there, watched my brother play at Penn State, got back in the camper, drove all the way back home. My dad went back to farming. We got ready for school. So that was kind of our life growing up, and it was awesome, right?
That's cool.
I got to be a part of it. And so as high school came on, you know, I got played, uh, played varsity as a sophomore, which we laugh about 'cause no one ever did that, right? The head coach never brought anybody up, but luckily for me, uh, the head coach at that time, his son was in my class, and so he brought his son up and me up. So I played varsity as a sophomore, uh, and just, I just, I just loved it. I loved everything about, uh, football, obviously seeing what my, my brothers had done, and just, just sports in general, right? It was, it was just back when it didn't matter, right? You'd go out, play Friday night-
Mm-hmm
... do the best you could. Uh, and so I remember a coach, uh, assistant coach at the time telling me, it was an off-season workout, and it stuck with me, uh, Coach Slosh, and he, he said, "Man, if you keep working, you got a chance. You're big enough, right? You're so athletic. You got a chance to go on and do this." And I remember thinking, "Oh, wow," right? The first guy that maybe really believed in me besides my parents and my siblings. And so I never let that go. And so as I got to be a junior and a senior and, you know, my brother's at the University of Iowa having success, uh, and then went on and, and w- and was in some NFL camps. You know, I'm sending out highlight videos, uh, on VHS to different schools 'cause I was not highly recruited. You know, luckily, because of my brother, the university knew who I was, right? And so we would send them a tape, but they, they'd look, um, but, uh, wasn't really very heavily recruited. Iowa recruited me as a senior. Ended up getting a s- uh, scholarship offer from Iowa. Uh, was offered by Purdue, uh, Northwestern, and, and Iowa State, you know. So back there was no stars and no, you know, but I was a, uh-
Mm-hmm.
... I was 6'8", 210 pounds, super broad shoulders and, and athletic. Could, you know, dunk a basketball and, and one, and like I said, had the school record in the high jump, so I was, uh, I was an athlete.
Yeah.
And so, you know, finally my senior year, uh, you know, after the football season, I got offered a scholarship by Iowa, and that's how I ended up there. I, uh, you know, I'd, I'd gotten those other offers, but I, I wanted to, you know, I loved Iowa football.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I had an uncle, I joke that I had an uncle in the '80s that played for Iowa State, never rooted for him. I was just, I was always an Iowa fan, right? That was my team in state, and I would never, never waver on my support for them. And so,
uh, committed to the University of Iowa. I was actually offered by Hayden Fry's staff, then he retired, as, as we all know. He was there for a couple decades. Uh, and then, you know, I remember being at home wondering, "Man, is this new staff gonna want me?" And then Coach Ferentz was hired, and they extended that offer to, to be out there. And so my first year, 1999, was the, the first year that Coach Ferentz came on to the University of Iowa as a head coach, um, and, and, and, and he's still there today, right? So that says a little bit-
Mm-hmm.
... about that program and that man as a person. But,
you know, got, got through high school, got down there to the University of Iowa, and I was a nobody, right? Like I said, I was, I think I showed up at 240 pounds soaking wet that day, 'cause they had told me, "You need to gain weight," right? I was 210-
[laughs]
... ish in high school, and I remember before we checked in that, that first day of rookie camp, I chugged, uh, almost two gallons of water because they had made it very clear that you need to put on as much weight as you can. And so I chugged a bunch of water. I think I weighed in right at 240, uh, full of water. Um, but that's, that kind of started my, my career there. And, um, like I said, it was Coach Ferentz's first year, new staff, right? My, my freshman year, my red shirt year, 'cause I red shirted my first year. We were 1 and 10. It was a rebuilding of a program. Uh, and so, you know, I just, I just wanted to be the best I could be. My parents instilled that in me. Um, I, I never worried about or thought about going to the NFL. I honestly didn't. We never watched the NFL that much, you know. For a long time, we only had four channels at our house on the farm, so it's not like I was catching a bunch of NFL games. But I, uh, you know, in all honesty, I never really thought about it. I just wanted to be in the moment the best I could be, and that's kind of what my parents taught me, to worry about today, right? Worry about getting better today, move on to the next day. And so it was fun. I was getting my butt kicked by all these older guys, um, but as the years went on, I red shirted, then I ended up starting the next year at tight end. Uh, played, uh, first four games starting at tight end. Had some line guys get hurt. They came, Coach Ferentz brought me in, said, "What do you think about moving? We need you at tackle. Think you'd be good. Here's the reason why." Right? I, now at this point, I'm up to 285 pounds, you know, almost 300 pounds, uh, and I was just, "Yes, sir." Right? I just, you know, "If you think that's best for the team and me, I- I'll do it." And so, you know, that started. You know, that first year was rough. I'm going against, you know, fifth-year seniors that are, are All-Americans. You know, Fred Wake- Wakefield was, uh, uh, a senior that year. My first game at line, got my butt kicked. Um, you know, obviously very humbling, but I just kept working.
It made, it made you better, though.
100%, right? You go from-
Right.
... as, as you know, you go from hoping, right, like as an offensive lineman, but, uh, you know, obviously a little different from you, but you know the other side of it. Uh, you go from, "I hope I only give up a couple pressures," or, "Oh, one sack is good," you know, to-
Right.
... "Hey, that dude was within four feet of the quarterback." You know, the standard changes. And, and so I did. As time went on, right, just worked with a great group of people. I've, I had great coaches, right? The staff at the University of Iowa, Coach Ferentz obviously is a, uh, a very well-known offensive line coach, um, knows his stuff. He's a good teacher. Uh, had great, great, uh, line coaches. And so by my junior year, we were stacked, right? We had built the program up to, from a 1 and 10 to 3 and 7 to, uh, 7 and 5 to my, you know, what would have been my junior year, we were 11 and 1 going into the bowl game.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm playing with, you know, Brad Banks at quarterback. I'm playing with four other linemen on the offensive line that were drafted and/or in, uh, NFL camps. Like, we were good. Like, we-
Mm-hmm.
... we, we were the zone-
Yeah.
... uh, the zone blocking guys, right? All big guys like me that came in as tight ends, and they built us in. Chris Doyle-
Right.
... was our strength coach, built us into these monsters that could run and were strong. Um-
Right.
And, and so
get through, you know, through that, get to my senior, you know, get to the end of my junior year. You know, coach brings me in, says, "You have a chance to go early in the draft. I think you could get better. You know, obviously we want you to stay." I, I, at that point, again, I, I sound ignorant or arrogant or whatever it is, I had never thought about it. Until he said that to me, I'm like, "I got a year left. Like, I know I can get better." Um, and I remember saying to him, he said, "You know, they're saying you could be a top 10 pick." And I'm like, "Well, do you think I could be higher?" You know, 'cause it was just that mentality, right? What's next? What can I do better? You know, well, 10's great, but could I be one or two? You know, I just remember asking that. And he goes, "I think you could." You know, and so I decided to stay for my senior year. Obviously, that worked out well. Ended up being the second pick, uh, in the draft, and, and, you know, like, won the Outland. Uh, all that stuff comes because of the success our team had, the guys I played with, the coaches I played for.
Mm-hmm.
But like you said, lived that, went from a nobody getting my butt handed to me to, right, just toying with guys. Just, that was the, the, the-
Mm-hmm.
... great part about, you know, developing like that. It was fun. Every ounce of it was fun because I knew I was stronger, faster, more technically sound, uh, and, and, you know, things paid off, and, and so that kind of took me through my college career.
Real quick, you, you said you, you liked tooling the guys. Uh, our, our, uh, offensive center, uh, Johnny Garrett, and, uh, uh, with, I'm talking back in '87- His joke was he would hold the nose tackle off and light Donnie McPherson's cigar behind, you know, the, behind the line of scrimmage. It was hilarious. But, uh,
uh, uh, that you just took me for a walk down memory lane because when I got to Syracuse, we were 65th in the nation in '83, and then we ended up 11, 11-0 and one, uh, and, you know, played in the Sugar Bowl. So, um, yeah, that, that's, that's a pretty... It was... And I never thought I was gonna get drafted. I hadn't known. I had no idea. Um, anyway, um, that's... Let me ask you a question. In all of this,
uh, I mean, and, and, uh, your story, I don't hear... I hear a kid that was unassuming. I hear a kid was, that was humble. I hear a kid that, uh, about a kid that was a great athlete. And you, I hear a kid that competed against himself. But I don't hear a kid that was depressed and, and, um, had addictive,
uh, personalities or, or, or, or anything like that.
Mm-hmm.
When, when did that start?
Yeah, I think some of that was there, but it was healthy, right? I was-
Right.
... right, as I got older, yeah, we'd go, we'd go drink a bunch of Coors Lights after the game, right? We enjoyed it.
Mm-hmm.
And that was, right, I know I could drink 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 of them and be fine, right? But it wasn't... That was a night after the game. Hey, now it's time to get serious. We gotta... That, that wasn't a Monday night, Tuesday night, Thursday night, right? That was, "Hey, let's go celebrate. We deserve this."
Right.
Uh, um-
Right.
You know?
Your, your adrenaline's still going, so-
Exactly.
... 18 was no problem.
Exactly. And then, you know, as far as the mental health side of it, I think the first time, like you said, it was just fun till a certain point. There was no... There was pressure that I put on myself, but after that conversation with Coach Ferentz after my junior year, right, and they said, "Hey, there, you could be a t-" Uh, you know, I was so unassuming. Like, "You could be a top 10 pick." I remember from that point on, you know, I think something shifted in my brain that I gotta be perfect, right?
Mm-hmm.
It wasn't as fun my senior year because everybody's talking about it every week. Everyone's saying, "This is, this guy came back." You know, it's, uh, part of the pressure of, of having success. Uh, and so I remember, like, you know, I had... There was a, a general manager that was friends, uh, with Coach Ferentz that was in our facility, and I was talking to him about it, and, and he could tell I was, like, spinning on it. Like, "No, I had 70 plays. I, my hands were wide on that play," or, "I gave up a pressure," or, "I got a holding call." And I would stew on it, and it would wreck me. And he left a card, uh, it was Scott Pioli from the New England Patriots, and, and he left-
Yeah.
... his business card in my locker after we had talked for, like, an hour and just wrote on there, you know, from the movie, "Lighten up, Francis," right? 'Cause he told me, like, "Listen, dude, you're doing a good job," and I'll never forget that 'cause we had this long conversation, and I... You know, that was just my mentality. I think it was, it was healthy to a point because that was what was driving me, but... So from that point on, it was, it was like, "No, you gotta be great. You gotta be perfect." Um, but all the other stuff, it was just, to me, that was just my inner drive. And, and so-
Mm-hmm.
... really until, you know, yes, I had,
uh, you know, looking back on the brain health part of it, you know, yes, I got my bell rung, seeing stars, wobbling. We love, like you, I'm sure, we love that, right? That, that was a sign-
Oh, yeah.
... of we're doing it right, right?
Yeah.
The, the half-line drill, taking on a linebacker at full speed, Tra- Chad Greenway, great player, great pro, right? Him and I were both hard-headed dudes. We both led with our head, and we would, like, play it giggling, right?
Yeah.
As we're both stumbling back to the play because we knew, "Oh, I got him to, I got him to shift back a, a, a yard and a half," or, or, "He stood me up," and, and we loved that stuff. So never really thought of what it was doing to me. Uh, and it wasn't really till, you know, I get in the league, right? And so I go from a very stable situation at the University of Iowa. I had the same coaches for five years, uh, and then I get into the league and, right, I've got a, a different head coach almost every year, right? Different system-
Mm-hmm.
... different line coach, right? So things are, are, are now are, are mounting mentally, physically, right? As you know, right, we're good, all right, unless you're just a f- absolute freak, a guy that can get out of bed and do it, which I'm not, and I don't think you are.
Uh-uh.
Right?
No.
We had to work at it. You have to be in a system. Unless you're that guy, man, it takes a, it takes time. It takes time to, uh, to know the scheme, to, to be good in that scheme, to, you know, all the things. And so I think year after year, things were mounting for me because you wanna have success, right? I'm used to this-
I think so.
... stable situation at the University of Iowa. I'm used to doing, um, technique that, that obviously fared very well for me, and now you got every year a new guy coming in that has all the answers, right? That's telling-
Uh-huh.
... "Oh, do this," or, "We're gonna set like this," or, "We're gonna do this." And so, you know, as time went on, you know, that stuff mounted, and, and I think that's when,
you know, there was some years of depression, right? When we were, you know, the-
Yeah.
... my third year in the league, they brought back Art Shell, uh, uh, you know, as a head coach, and Art Shell was a-
Right.
... a great head coach, uh, you know, in his heyday. Um, he had been out of coaching for 20-some years, right? Uh, we had an offensive coordinator who, uh, the, it's just the reality of it, he had been running a bed and breakfast for 25 years.
Wow.
No dis- no disrespect to him. You know football has changed, and that's a hard situation to be into, right? And so, yeah, I think that year was the first year, I mean, I s- I started talking to a therapist 'cause I was, I was drowning that, that depression and, and those feelings with beer, uh, you know, because you get done with a game, it doesn't go away, so the day off, you do, you know, you, you put down it again 'cause it's just, you know-
Yeah.
... the mental side of it, right? You wanna be successful, you wanna win, all the things that we, you know, y- getting paid is not what y- you go to the league for, right? Yes, it's great. Set up your family.
Right.
Man, yeah, people that say, "Oh, you're getting paid, it shouldn't matter," but it matters. Like, anyone that cares, it matters. Uh, and-
Yes, absolutely.
And so that was, you know, kinda my introduction to that, and then as-
... my years in the league went on, you know, now I'm, you know, I'm getting in the vehicle after a game, my wife's getting in, and I'm l- you know, losing my shit over her having the window down or up or not what I wanted, right? And I'm snapping at her, and she's like, "What's wrong with you?" She's probably had a few drinks at the game, enjoying herself like she should, and I'm just, you know, angry, right? And, and we're going to a restaurant, and someone's saying something or doing something or, and then, you know, flipping my trigger flips to where we get up-
Mm-hmm
... and leave because I'm gonna fight some... You know, so just, I think emotional things were coming up, um, as the years went on, but I just equated that to, hey, I really care, uh, deeply about what we're doing. I was never on a winning team. I was never on a team that made the playoffs. I mean, we were never even close to 500. Uh, and so-
Mm-hmm
... as the years go on, that wears on you, uh, mentally as a, as a, as an athlete, as a professional. And so that's when I started seeing some of these things pop up, but really never understood them till I had retired.
This episode of the "Head Rush Podcast" is brought to you by our personal doctor and team of doctors, uh, Dr. Mizel, Mizel DeMayo, and she's with the Paradise Behavioral Health, and we are in the-
Brain Well Program, which is also part of the Millennium Health Center. Uh, Dr. Mark Gordon, you've seen him on Joe Rogan and even on our show, the "Head Rush Podcast."
[laughs]
Um,
and, uh, hormones, and Mizel is awesome. We love her.
She's, she's our doctor of psychiatry. She works with the Mark Gordon program with the hormones and, uh, and she, she adds her twist of genetics and, um, and it's, it's, it basically is melding two wonderful, uh, uh, mediums together, and we're getting great help from Dr. Mizel DeMayo.
So please check out her website at paradisebehavioral.com.
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Look up the Brain Well Program. Get involved.
She's sponsoring us. They're, they're sponsoring us for the next year, so we are excited to, to have them on board and, uh, and, and shout the new, the good news to everybody, uh, th- that is watching these broadcasts, so.
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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I have not.
Oh, that's a great movie. Uh, "Quiet Explosions." It's a, it's a, it features Andrew Marr. He was a Green Beret. He is a Green Beret. A blast explosi- uh, explosive specialist, and, uh,
uh, before his fourth, uh, tour to Afghanistan, he was kinda grounded because he, they,
he had been affected so much with the repeated blast exposures and all that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, uh, anyway, that's a great movie.
Oh.
Gives, gives you a lot of hope. Now, and you're about hope too. Um,
you know,
I've done a lot of studying
about the repeated head impacts. I know what they can do, and it's interesting that
trauma, it doesn't have to be physical to start the, the, the i- inflammation in the brain, you know, the cytokines and all that crazy stuff. Now, you,
wha- tell me your journey to, to the, to the point where you felt you needed to do something pretty extreme, like a plant-based medicine that nobody or people were just starting to gain interest in. Um, talk about that.
Yeah, so when I retired, right, I went through all this stuff that all of us do, right? Some of us on different levels, but the identity, right? We go from, you know, we're very, you know, black and white in our thinking, you know, if I can say it that way, right? It's like, "Hey-"
Yeah.
"... this is what you gotta do. This is when you gotta do it," right? You get a schedule.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Like, there is, we are trained. We are rewired to think about, right? You know, I do it now where I'm, I got a dentist appointment, and I'm sitting in the parking lot 30 minutes early because I know, uh, I'm a piece of shit if I'm late, right? But I have the trauma of, I can't walk into a meeting 30 seconds late, right? They're gonna-
Mm-hmm
... fire me or punish me, you know? So, all those things I got done, and I was, you know, transitioning to being a father and being at home and dealing with young kids and, and not being in the, you know, per se, in the office, right? To where if you had a bad day, you start a fight at practice, and you try and, you know, break someone's jaw, uh, you know, or someone that goes too hard when they're not supposed to. That's how we deal with, you know, taking our aggression out and those things. And, and so now I'm home, and these things are happening. And so I think it's just, hey, I'm just a, you know, I'm another former athlete that can't handle that. He didn't play long enough, didn't accomplish what he thought he should, blah, yada, all on and on and on. Uh, but as one, as time went on,
you know, other things were popping up. Yes, I was coping with alcohol more and more because, you know, as even in my highest days of stardom, right? Coming off the Outland Trophy and traveling around the country to these award shows, I did not like that attention, right?
Mm-hmm.
I was very anxious around it, um, social anxiety, all, all those things, right? So, on the good side of it or the bad side of it, right? When people are booing you leaving games, throwing beer cans at your car, you know, saying something to you in a restaurant after a game, right? I didn't like any of it, any attention at all. And so-
Mm-hmm
... you know, going to events, going to my kids' school functions or fundraisers, right? Like, how was I able to function and be somewhat social was with alcohol, uh, a ton of alcohol, right?
Right.
And my wife joked because she's like, "You're, you know, you seem happy and free when you're loaded," right? "And you can handle a lot of booze." And, and, you know, we can laugh about it now, but it, that's what it was. And so, that was going on. Uh, then it led to, you know, times that, you know, I was aware of these things happening, but we would go, you know, we went to a restaurant. My mother-in-law was in town visiting, went to a restaurant, and we had said we were gonna sit inside. Uh, and so
we walked in, and then my wife, the sun popped out as we were talking to the hostess, and she said to the hostess, "Hey, let's sit outside instead." And I remember going dark, right? I was so enraged that she changed her mind, and I just remember, 'cause I remember looking at my mother-in-law, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to hurt her, and they're just look, both looking at me like, "What is wrong with you?" And, and I was aware- Uh-huh ... enough to know, but this reaction happened, and so that started happening a lot, right? These reactions to my kids laughing, right? I'm sitting in my chair in my house, and my children are laughing like they should be, giggling, right? Right. And I'm sitting in a chair,
scratching, trying to scratch the skin off my hands because I wanted to hurt them to make them stop. And I, and I'm aware of it enough to know, like, "Hey, this is not a logical thought." It didn't stop the thought, right? But I was aware enough to know, like, "What is wrong with me?" Like, I'm literally losing my mind, right? Why, why is this laughter enraging me so much? And, you know, and I don't say it lightly, but it was the same with my wife, right? Set, set down a coffee cup on the table instead of the counter, and I'd wanna smash her head through a window. And I remember those- Mm-hmm ... feelings coming on, and I'm like, "Man, I'm a terrible human being." So that led to, you know, worse mental health, right? That led to suicidal nightmares because I, I'm a terrible human being, right? Why am I thinking these things? What is wrong with me? I, I literally thought in the moment I was losing my mind. And, and- Uh-huh ... and so as that continued on, so now I'm not sleeping very well. Uh, I didn't sleep well anyway, but sleeping less, right? So, you know, in, in, in reality, my brain health is getting worse, but I didn't wanna have suicide nightmares. I didn't wanna think about killing myself or hurting my family. Uh- Uh-huh ... and that led to suicidal ideation during the day, and there was a point, uh, finally, and I just kept it internal. You know, I was, you know, the alcohol would help it go away, would help me fall asleep, uh, at times. I wasn't an everyday drunk, but when I went, right, I started drinking tequila 'cause I wanted to lose weight, and I'd drink- Mm-hmm ... go to my neighbors, I'd take a bottle, and I'd come home with an empty bottle, right? And that's just the way it was. Mm-hmm. And, and so finally, I had a breakdown one morning. We were working out, uh, in, in our driveway, and I remember just falling on the ground, and I was crying, and my wife's like, "What is wrong?" And I just let, I told her everything. She knew I'd been struggling. She saw the signs. She didn't know about the, the suicide, you know, ideation- Mm-hmm ... and dreams and all that. And I said, "I'm, I'm losing my mind. I need help." Like, "I, I, I literally think I'm losing my mind." And so from that day forward, right, we, she's like, "Okay, we need to, you know, what can we do?" Right? Uh, and so we text, uh, took steps to, you know, do what we thought was best, right? I had a friend who was an addict who had been through some healing, uh, uh, on his own, and, and, and I reached out to him, right? A couple friends that I knew had been through some of their own dark times. Um, I called the, I, my wife said, "You need to just talk to a therapist." Okay, you know, I wanted to do it. Called the suicide hotline through the NFL, uh, which is not a funny story, but kinda is now.
They, you know, they ask, "Are, are you gonna hurt yourself?" I'm like, "Well, I'm calling the fucking suicide hotline," you know? Um, but I'm like, "No, of course, no, I'm not, but I need help," right? "Well, okay, well, within seven days, we'll get you a list of insurance-approved therapists you can talk to." And I remember slamming the phone down, right? Thank God they've changed their... Right? But that was, in that moment, I'm like, "Are you..." I did, I s- slammed the phone down. I was like, "I don't have seven effing days," you know, I told my wife, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I, I learned, but I, I wanted to be better, so I just, I didn't take that for a no. I just, you know, I just went to the next thing. "What can we do?" And it just happened all this coincided with, uh, my worker's comp case that I was, you know, like you, you know, eight years into fighting, uh, to, to gathering information and to getting it taken care of, and, and my doctor or my lawyer had me get a brain scan. And so right after all this happened, I was in the, in with the, the neu- neurologist at the Amen Clinic, took my brain scan. My wife and I came in for the results, and,
you know, they put a, a scan up of a normal, healthy 35-year-old brain at this time and mine. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, I tell the story, but my wife's crying, right? Just tears running down her eyes 'cause mine looked like someone had taken a baseball bat to it, right? And I'm laughing. And, and she looked at me, and she's like, "What in the fuck are you laughing at?" You know? And I'm like, "I'm not crazy. That's what," right? Right. Right. So for, for me, it was like an answer. And, and I was- Yeah ... I was like, "Oh," 'cause I literally, you know, thought I was losing my mind. Um, and so from that point on, you know, I told the doctor, "Don't give me the doctor BS," right? All the stuff you and I don't want. "Shoot me straight. Is this bad? Is it, you know, is this light? Have you seen way worse?" And he's like, "I've seen worse, but this is pretty bad. Like, you're right up there." Um- Uh-huh ... "Okay, well, what does that mean?" I said again, and I was in that, just that frame of mind, like, almost threatening him, like, "Tell me the truth. Tell me the effing truth," right? Like, "What does this mean?" And, and he, and he said to me, he goes, "Well, with your symptoms, your scan, obviously we can't, you know, quote unquote diagnose you with CTE till, till after you've passed." He's like, "You have CTE." He's like, "You, if you don't do something about this, uh, and, and work towards being healthier, you're gonna be a statistic." And, and I knew- Uh-huh ... exactly what that meant. Uh, and so, you know, that kind of flipped the switch for me, right? I went from this angry, depressed guy to instantly like, "Okay, what do we do?" Right? And so I started- Sure ... a year and a half of anything they told me, right? I'm working with a brain specialist. Um, you know, they told me, "Hey, you're a guy that, you know, 'cause of all the studies in hyperbaric chambers, you're a guy that should be in a hyperbaric chamber every day." So I, I rented a hyperbaric chamber. I was in there for two hours a day for a month. Um- Mm-hmm ... thought there was some improvement, right? Could feel maybe some more sensations, my brain working a little better. I bought one, right? Luckily through my Gene Ops, Gene Upshaw Reimbursement Fund, I bought a hyperbaric chamber.
I'm getting IVs. I'm getting-- I'm doing light therapy. I'm doing all the things that they tell me to do. And, and over that year and a half, I went from kind of excited, you know, like, "Okay, I'm gonna do this." I'm like, like we do, right? Tell me how we're gonna fix this, and we'll fix it. Uh, and, but over time, I was minimally better. Uh, you know, yes, I got my-- I got to where I could actually fall asleep at night and stay asleep, so I did make some improvements. But the, the dark stuff wasn't going away, the depression, the, the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal nightmares. Uh, and so I was in th- then this place till I got to where, like, I'm tired. Uh, I, I don't wanna do this anymore, right? I'm, I'm raging on my family. I'm sitting in the chair. I'm just a non-functioning human being at times, right? I'm going places to take my kids to soccer practice and calling my wife and saying, "Where's that at again?" And I'm five miles on the other side of town when it was two minutes down the street. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I got to the point where I was, uh, I didn't have much hope. Uh, and I just happened to be, at that time, I started listening to, uh, a lot of military podcasts. I felt- Mm-hmm ... uh, obviously, my dad, I had family in the, in the military. My dad fought in Vietnam. I was a huge supporter of the military, uh, and always have been. Uh, have a lot of admiration for them. And I found, uh, the one I was drawn to was the "Team Never Quit" podcast that Marcus Luttrell does. Mm-hmm. And so I was listening- Right ... to that and the "Never Quit" stories, and I'm hearing, I think I listened to 150 of them or 200 of them, and the guys that, right, same, same stuff, right? We're talking about, uh, br- you know, brain damage, right? Now that I know that's what's causing this, a lot of these issues. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then alcoholism and suicidal ideation, all the things. I'm like, "Man, I'm just like these dudes," right? And so, and they were all talking about their "Never Quit" stories, and it just happened to be, uh, one of the, um, probably the 200th one I listened to, uh, there was a guy by the name of Marcus Capone on there. He played college football, uh, was a 13-year Navy SEAL, and he, um, you know, I literally s- called my wife, 'cause I wasn't with her when I was listening to it, and said, "I'm on the radio. Go, turn this on and listen to it. It's me," right? I was in that head space, and I'm like, "Oh, that's me, that's me, that's me." Literally thought I was talking. And- Hmm ... so he talked about his story. He did all the stuff I did, and I'm like, "Okay, it's me. I did that. I did the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I did this, I did that." I'm checking every box as he's talking. And then he talked about getting taken to Mexico, doing this plant medicine called ibogaine, uh, how it changed his life, and then he started a foundation to help other special operators. And I was, uh, I mean, I called my wife all excited. "I found it," right? "This is it." Uh, I, you know, I had hope. And she's like, "Okay," you know, 'cause I'd done this before, right? Found things or through the mood swings, and she's like, "Okay, let's talk tomorrow." 'Cause I was heading up to, um, we had a vacation home in Tahoe at that point, and I was heading up to give my family a break, go and spend a few days by myself.
So long story short, I emailed him when I got to our cabin. I emailed their foundation, VETS, VE- it's, uh, Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, not thinking I'd ever hear from them, but it gave me that hope that night to go to bed. And, and so next day, I get a call from someone on his team, then get a call from Marcus Capone himself.
Uh, talked to him for about a week and, and, and kind of at one point said, "Hold my beer," 'cause he's like, "You can do this and you can do that." And I'm like, "Hold my beer, buddy." Like, "I've done everything you did." Like, you name it, I, you know, I've, I've probably done it. And then finally at, towards the end of that week, he's like, "Hey, I think you'd fit in with this group of people who are taking down for treatment. Uh, I think this could really help you," right? "You sound like us. You, you would fit in." Um, you know, if it's something, you know, I knew nothing about psychedelics. I never tried, uh, anything recreationally, knew nothing about it. Uh, but, uh, during this week, right, there was this, this hope, and so I was like, "Yeah, who can I talk to?" So I talked to some other special operators who had gone. I talked to the doctor- Mm-hmm ... down in Mexico, and I said, "I'm in." Called my wife, said, "Hey, uh, in two, two weeks from now," it was three weeks from the first phone call, I said, "I'm going to Mexico to do this medicine. I don't care what you think. Um, I, I have to do something, uh, otherwise I'm not gonna make it." Same conversation with my parents. "Hey, I don't want your opinion. Um, I c- wanna tell you I love you. I'm going to Mexico to do this medicine called ibogaine, uh, and because if, if, if not, I, I'm afraid w- where that's gonna take me." And so, I did all the things I had to to go down there, right? I had to get off my, you know, I had to go cold turkey and all, antidepressants and everything else I'm on that's not healthy and not smart, but I did not care. Mm-hmm. I was going no matter what, because- Right ... I thought this would, you know, just in my brain, right? The, uh, the, the obsessive, you, you know, just like we are, right? Like, you get on something, you're doing it, right? And so, um, you know, like I said, three weeks after the initial conversation, I was, uh, with a group of special operators in Mexico and went through this treatment that started, uh, a, a lot of healing and changed and saved my life.
So it changed your life?
So for me, instantly it was, right? You, it was a three-day treatment. Uh, for me, I went down there with extreme daily brain fog, um, to almost non-functioning, right? I'm like, you know, I just kept telling them, like, "I'm just stupid." Like, "I can't, I can't think." Mm-hmm. "I can't get s- words out of my mouth. I can't..." Right? That brain fog. And unless you've had brain fog, you, once you have it, you'll, you know, it's like a bad hangover, but 24 hours a day, uh, you know- Right ... the worst hangover you had. Uh- Right ... and so I went down there with terrible brain fog, like the ringing in my ears, right? I really couldn't hear all that well because it was, everything was always ringing. Uh, the, you know, the depression, the,
um, you know, s- the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal ideation, the, the, you know, the, the time sitting in my truck wanting the noise to go away with a, you know, unfortunately, a loaded pistol in my lap because I didn't know any other way to make it stop, right? And I, I couldn't live like that. I was afraid that, that I was some point gonna mess up and, and, and do something to my family, right? So then, uh, you know, uh, so when you think of it that way, it's like, I will never be that man that puts a hand on my family, right? And, but I got close at times, and I'm like, "I'm gonna screw up sometime and do it." And so how do I make this stop? Um, so I come, go to this treatment. And it was. It was like a light switch. I mean, the, the experience is, is tough. But I get home, right? My wife instantly, she met me, uh, when we got back to San Diego, and she, she told me later, she goes, "I, I could see instantly something was different." She's like, "The color in your, in the, in your eyes was back. Like, the way you walked, the smile on your face. Like, the, there was no heaviness." And I felt it, right? Because after the, the, both medicines, ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT, you know, I felt like the ibogaine just turned the, turned the computer off, right? Defragged all this stuff, got rid of... You know, I went through all these different things in my career and whatever, things I thought of failures and traumas and, and then we do the f- you know, was sick that whole next day, and then we do the 5-MeO-DMT, and then the lights came back on. I remember waking up from that trip, uh, with 5-MeO-DMT, and I'm laying in the grass, and I could hear every blade of grass blowing in the wind. I mean, I could hear the ocean, which was five miles away, and I just remember thinking,
thinking nothing. Uh, uh, you know-
Yeah
... there was no, there was no, nothing dark in my head. There was nothing. I just remember like, "Oh, man, this is freeing. Like, how beautiful. Oh, what is that noise?"
Mm-hmm.
And, and as I got home, it was the same thing. It was, right? I was just happy to be alive. I remember noticing the color of the trees and the plants, right? It sounds hokey, you know, like I went and did drugs, and now all of a sudden I'm still floating around. But, you know, it was simple as the morning after we got back, we, I had a call with my therapist and-
This episode of the "Head Rush Podcast" is brought to you by the Patrick Richa CTE Awareness Foundation. Their goal is the, to spread awareness about the dangers of RHI, repetitive head impacts, after losing their son, Patrick, to CTE. Sadly, there are too many like Patrick that have lost their families, jobs, and sometimes their lives. And this foundation is working hard to stop the devastation then c- that can come from not protecting the brain. This foundation provides parents of school-aged children with information about the dangers of sports, concussive sports, and activities which involve head trauma.
They advertise on social media, print media, and billboards. Please follow them on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and share their ads with others. And please visit their website, stopcte.org, to find ways to help people recognize the disease if confronted with it in their family, and how to prevent the suffering that can come to families when a brain is damaged. The website has medical forms to take to doctor's visits and advocacy letters if you want to help make change in your community. And their most recent campaign is geared up to help coaches build brain-healthy teams. You can use the information on stopcte.org website to understand CTE,
live with CTE, and prevent CTE. Please visit. Thank you. And don't knock it.
Stop C-
Good. There you go
... stopcte.org.
[laughs]
The computer wouldn't hook up to the internet in the hotel room. And in, before this treatment, I would have probably thrown the computer through the wall or raged at my wife and what the F's going on-
Mm-hmm
... you know? And I-
Right
... remember she got up. It wasn't, you know, it was one, two minutes before, one minute before, "I'm supposed to be on there two minutes after." And I remember just thinking, "Ah, well. Oh, well. If, you know, if it's not working." And my wife's up running around. I remember her taking off, running out the room to go to the front desk with the computer, and I remember thinking-
Mm-hmm
... "What is wrong with her?" Right? But she had done this for two, three years, right? 'Cause she knew what the reaction was. And so that was the first eye-opening to me, and I remember her running back in sweating, and I, and I had gotten on my phone. It worked. And, but I remember being like, "Babe, you gotta settle down. Like, it's okay. It's not that big of a deal." And sh- I remember just staring at me like, "What are you talking about?" And, and so I think little things like that start happening. Um, and it was-
Kudos to her. Kudos to her for sticking with you through that, you know? That- that's awesome. I know Bob Stern has sat, uh, you know, older couples down, the, with, with the, the gentleman, the guys suffering from CTE or TES or
supposed, whatever. And his first question to the wives is, "Why are you still here?" And it is that, that, that, that, that the caregiver, it's, it's a load unless... So, really quick, and I know I only have a few more minutes of your time. You,
you understood you, you had a problem. You were facing the issues. You knew you had to get help. You sought it out, and you got help. So, that's hope. What about the, the guys, I think of the guys that don't have hope, and they never understand what they're dealing with. Uh, you know, I, I, I liken it to when, uh, at 47 years old, my brain snapped, and that unbridled rage started coming.
Yep.
You know, you know exactly what it is. And, uh, if I had been modeled that, uh, domestic violence was okay, you know, growing up and saw dad, dad hit mom,
I, I prob- in that, in that state, in that rage, I probably would have
followed that model. But fortunately, I, I never touched, you know, a woman and, and anything like that, and I, it wasn't modeled to me. But these guys that are suffering that don't know what's going on, they, they really are, you really are going crazy, and you gotta... There's a chance... Now,
last question.
Why did you start Athletes for Care?
Well, for those exact reasons, right? Because like you, I, I did not have that modeled to me, right? Had loving parents, uh, you know-
Mm-hmm.
... so thank God that wasn't modeled to me as a child, right? Because same thing, and I'd sit in my, like I said, shaking my hands 'cause I, I knew that wasn't right. Um-
Right.
... but, you know, that's what brought me to start Athletes for Care. After this healing and seeing the change, and knowing all these other guys that were going through it and seeing, right, hearing of the guys committing suicide and doing these crazy outlandish things, right? Killing their neighbor or, or their family.
Mm-hmm.
Right? These things that everybody's else is like, "Oh, these messed up ex-football players," right? And I'm like-
No.
... "Dude, this is from our brains." And so, that's the exact reason I started Athletes for Care, is because when someone took my phone call, and in essence, Marcus Amber Capone did, and saved my life, right? That's the reality-
Mm-hmm.
... of them answering that email to their foundation. And I knew other guys, right? I knew I was in the best situation I could be of how I was raised, all these things. My wife, I, I dated in college. She knew the, the 20-year-old Robert. She knew what my soul was, right? So I'm going through all these things. She stayed with me. She, she, she told me one time, it was the greatest thing she ever said to me, she said, "I was never mad at you. I was sad for you because-
Aw.
... I know who you are, who you were." She goes, "I knew it was in there, and I knew this wasn't your fault." And so, for that reason, I started Athletes for Care because of hearing these stories. And, and did I wanna talk about this and, and admit to these things and have my children hear these things? Absolutely not. But if this-
Mm-hmm.
... helps others find hope, right? Because not everything, not all, you know, modern medicine stuff works, right? I tried everything until I heard about this random thing, right? Uh, uh, uh-
Mm-hmm.
... it was on a podcast. I had no hope, and it was probably gonna end very badly. And so, that's my mission with Athletes for Care is, is talking about it so other people feel okay, and that's instantly what happened when we, we started it, right? I'm getting emails, I'm getting calls of, "Dude, thank you for saying that because I live like this, but I think I'm going crazy and no one will understand." And so, the, that's the, the main-
Mm-hmm.
... reason, uh, like you said, for me starting Athletes for Care.
That's awesome. It's, it's, it's powerful what you're doing. Uh, it's needed. It's desperately needed. And, uh, uh, I, I, you know, I, I just got a call about three weeks ago from a guy. He played about the same time I played, and he was hurting. And, uh, I've, I've been able to talk to him and his wife and talk him off the ledge, and he's doing, you know,
Lord willing, he's gonna be doing well, and I'm gonna obviously tell him about, uh, uh, Athletes for Care. Um, and, uh, uh,
Godspeed to the ibogaine research. I mean, if it's, if it's a plant-based medicine that helps the, with the brain, it should be able to be used, you know, worldwide, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And that's the part-
Legally. Legally.
Ab- ab- absolutely. And that's part of the advocacy work I'm doing, right? Not only to help former athletes, uh, you know, find hope in whatever healing that is, right? Whether that's breath-
Right.
... work or cold wa- You know, it's not just psychedelic-assisted therapy, but the advocacy work I've done with the Texas Ibogaine Initiative, now Americans for Ibogaine.
Mm-hmm.
Right? The executive order was signed to fast-track the study of this. I've been, you know, in close... You know, Dr. Nolan Williams, who did this study, uh, uh, with ibogaine on these special ops guys and, and proved that it creates new neural pathways. There is science-
Was, was that the one that started at Stanford and then down in Tijuana and back to Stanford?
Exactly, right? I was very... I'm very close with those people and, and, and what N- Dr. Nolan Williams did, God rest his soul, uh, he became a close friend. But it's scientifically proven what this medicine is doing, and there's others-
Right.
... carrying on his work. Uh, and so that's a big part of it. Like, this stuff should be... We're working to help advocate for this stuff being legal. Uh, I, I truly believe in my heart it will be sooner than later because, uh, it's not just a bunch of former athletes talking about going down and all this psychedelic experience they had, right? Now we are taking FMRIs, brain scans, and showing the new neural pathways-
Mm-hmm.
... showing the creation of white brain matter. Uh-
Right.
... and so that's why this, this movement, especially with ibogaine, is moving forward, and I wanna be a part of it because, uh, like you, I, I don't hold, uh, anger towards football. I love football. My son's playing football. Uh, I love what football did for me, taught me, but it took a lot. Uh, and if-
Yeah.
... there's a way for us to pay it forward to help the next generation, right? It's just like you and I talked, right? Even more in your day, right?
Mm-hmm.
Of what a concussion was, right? We're so much more educated now. And so-
Right. Right.
... if we can get rid of this stigma of psychedelics, uh, the reality is it's one of the highest powered anti-inflammatories there is, you know?
Right.
You know? So-
And that's, that's the whole, that's the whole thing, uh, uh, uh, the inflammation. Inflammation causes all of it.
Exactly.
The Alzheimer's, the Parkinson's, the neurodegeneration, the, the ALS, the whole deal.
Yeah.
It starts with inflammation.
Yep.
So-
Yep. So-
Robert.
... it's like you said, this is my... You know, I found, right, like I had a small... You know, it seemed like a huge window in my life was football, um, but when I got done, I was like, "Who am I?" I know, I know who I am now, right? This is my purpose.
Yeah.
Uh, it brings-
Yeah.
... brings me so much joy, right? Even with the hard phone calls, right? The guys calling like you get, right? I get those all the time. But I also get the guys that call, you know, that find some healing or, or call and, and say, "Man, I love you. Thank you for doing this." Like, "You saved my life." Uh, you know, just like I said to Marcus Capone, you know, because that's what this is about, right? It's the community we used to have, and now, uh, passing it forward, and that's what, that's what, you know, my life's work is to be here on out, uh, to be a better human myself, better father and husband, but to help others, um, through my lived experience.
That's awesome. That we, we always leave the listeners with a word of hope, and that was perfect. I, I, I really appreciate that. Robert, I thank you for your time. I know we went a little over. Uh, I'm gonna see you in a couple of days, I b- I believe, so, uh, in, in Tampa, uh, with, uh, with, uh, Bruce Parkman and Bruce and Perry. Obviously, you know those guys, and, uh, they do a-
Yeah.
... a great work, so.
Yeah. Look- looking forward to seeing you in person and, yeah, being a part of that, right? This is, this is, to me-
Yeah.
... it's just education and, and, and helping. You know, we're all doing it in, in our own way to help move this forward so w- we can help deal with these things that, that, this, the cost of what this sport does to us and, and others and, and other people in life, not just football.
Yep. Amen. All right, brother. Robert, it was a ple- pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it very much.
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