[Speaker 0]
This is the "Head Rush Podcast" with Paul Frase and Corey Barry.
[Speaker 1]
It's time. It's Official Word Sports. I'm Vince. I'm here with Stevie D. It's Stevie D. Uh, we got a good one for him tonight. Um, we have Paul Frase joining us, and it... this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited. Something that you and I have both talked about, um, basically the entire time that we've had the podcast. Uh, you know, we've talked about head injuries. We've talked about concussions. I've given some of my stories of probably things I shouldn't have done, uh, as a youth with a helmet, right? Thinking I was a, thinking I was a madman, a gladiator, um, and then realizing years later. But I definitely wanna, you know, get his take and, um, have him provide some in- some input, his insight, and help educate, right? We have a fan base here that certainly needs to be educated, and where other than to go to the source, right?
[Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
All right. So, uh, get ready, everybody. The show is about to start, and welcome to "OW Sports Network."
[Speaker 1]
And welcome back to another edition of Official Word Sports. I'm Vince. I'm here with my co-host, Stevie D, and we are very pleased and honored to be able to welcome Paul Frase, former New York Jet, uh, who else? Jacksonville Jaguar, Green Bay Packer, Baltimore Raven. So, uh, definitely a veteran in the NFL. Uh, unfortunately,
[Speaker 1]
uh, Derek Burrows was not able to join us, our, our collaborator. That would've been nice to have those 2 guys go at it. Uh-
[Speaker 2]
Well, there's the Jets all over again.
[Speaker 1]
I- indeed, indeed. Uh, but Stevie D, this, this is all you, my man.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yes.
[Speaker 1]
You, you lined this up, and you got us a great guest. And not that I'm gonna just sit back on the couch and, and just relax, 'cause Paul, I got, I got some questions for you. And if you could tell me probably a bad move of... So before I turn it over to Stevie D, I'll just tell you,
[Speaker 1]
I, I did not realize what a concussion was a- as a youth, right? And we're, we're going back. You can see the gray hair, so we're going back. But, uh, every time, every year that they would hand out the helmets and, and make sure it fits nice and snug and you're good, you know, make sure you go side to side. And then I would find myself going up against the brick wall, and I'd start banging my head against the wall.
[Speaker 1]
And then I'd get the little tears coming down the sides of my, my eyes, right? Or maybe the nose got a little, little, little moisture in there. And it wasn't till a few years ago, uh, as they were talking about concussions, that I realized, "Wait a minute. I think I gave myself a small minor concussion." I was like, "Ooh." And I used to do that all the time. So Stevie D, watch out. You know, I, I, I may venture... It explains a lot.
[Speaker 2]
Well, if I, if I see it again, I know what to look for now.
[Speaker 3]
We'll give you symptoms to look for, absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So let's, let's get the introduction. So Mr. Frase, um, was born in New York, Western New York, or closer to Western New York. We'll give that to, to, to Mr. Vince. Um, and, uh, uh, went to Syracuse University. Um, got drafted by the New York Jets in 1988, uh, in the 6th round. Um, in a notable draft with the Jets was, uh, Eric McMillan, Dave, uh, Cagnan, Jeff Criswell, James Booty, and James Haste- uh, John Booty and James Hastey. So it was a really big memorable draft, uh, for 1988 for the Jets. Uh, Paul went on to play, uh, as, as, um, Vince mentioned, 11 years in the NFL. Um, uh, 7 years with the New York Jets, 2 years with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Unfortunately, that's how we lost Paul, uh, 'cause we left him unprotected in the expansion draft with the Jaguars. Uh, him and Jeff Lagerman both were picked up, um, really good pickups by the Jaguars, uh, were picked up in '95. And then in '97, went on to play for the Green Bay Packers, went all the way to the Super Bowl with them, and finished his career with the R-hated Baltimore Ravens. But fan of the show, Craig Willis, who's a big Ravens fan. Happy birthday to you, Craig Willis. Today's his birthday, so I do want to acknowledge his birthday. He's been a longtime listener, commenter on the show. So it, it kinda ties back in, right, Vince? We start with the Jets and end with the Ravens, uh, for Craig on his birthday. I mean, can it get any better than that?
[Speaker 1]
Well, technically, you started with the Bills 'cause you were in Western New York.
[Speaker 3]
Ooh.
[Speaker 1]
Then you went to the Jets. Just, you know, wanna make sure we get that straight. Hey, hey-
[Speaker 2]
I normally don't sit in this seat too.
[Speaker 1]
... oh, real quick-
[Speaker 2]
Hold on, Vince. You know, I normally don't sit in this seat and do the introduction, so I feel I did a good job of tying everybody together here.
[Speaker 1]
You, you did. You did. I... Double thumbs up on that one. Um, when Syracuse, was that Pasqualoni?
[Speaker 3]
No. Pasqualoni came in my f- my 5th year at Syracuse as a linebacker coach. But interestingly, Dave Bavaro was a, uh, he was one year b- before me, Mark Bavaro's younger brother. He played linebacker. And, uh, you may remember, you probably don't, we went 11 and 0 my senior year in '87, '88. We played in the '88 Sugar Bowl. And, uh, Dave Bavaro played linebacker, and he said if we had not had Paul Pasqualoni as a linebacker coach, we wouldn't have won any games. So-
[Speaker 1]
Okay
[Speaker 3]
... it was really serendipitous that he came. And of course, Mack, uh, uh, graduated, uh, back into the NFL to the Patriots, Coach Dick McPherson to the Patriots for a couple of years, and then Paul Pasqualoni, uh, took over, uh, at Syracuse for 12, I don't know, 13 years. And he, he... So in my senior year, that 11-0 and 0 season, we brought Syracuse back to prominence. Ti- we were number 4 in the nation, and then they went to 10 or 11 major bowls, uh, over the next, uh, uh, 12 seasons type of thing. And then we've taken a nosedive since, but anyway.
[Speaker 1]
Was it, was that Don McPherson?
[Speaker 3]
Yep. Don McPherson was from, uh, West Hempstead, right? Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
[Speaker 3]
D- dear friend. We were ca- we were tri, uh, part of a tri-captain group, uh, my- myself, Don McPherson, and, uh, uh, Ted, Ted Gregory, and, uh, just, uh, dear friends to this day and, uh, good, uh, good memories.
[Speaker 1]
So, uh, and Stevie D, I'll, I'll give it to you just re- real quick. In Buffalo, at the time, the UB Bulls,
[Speaker 1]
we hadn't yet... I think we were just trying to get to D1 at that time, because actually, '87-
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... UB had hired Nelson Townsend to become their AD. And so one of his big initiatives was that move to D1.
[Speaker 1]
But at the time, if you're in Western New York, the closest thing that you had was Syracuse. So everybody was a Syracuse fan. So yeah, I, I remember those days.
[Speaker 3]
And you guys brought in, um... He was a running back coach for us. Uh, Daryl Johnston, The Moose, played under him as a running back coach. And I can't remember his name, but he, he ended up, uh, uh, bringing you guys, uh, uh, uh, a number of wins, um, ear- early on. And he was, uh, he was there for a number of years, and I can't, uh...
[Speaker 1]
You thinking Turner Gill?
[Speaker 3]
Nope, nope. Uh, Turn- Turner Gill from, uh, from Nebraska?
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, he coached UB and actually had, had them doing pretty good.
[Speaker 3]
Good. Well-
[Speaker 1]
But-
[Speaker 3]
... Turner Gill was on the sidelines when I was at Syracuse in, in the 2nd half in his street clothes and his sunglasses because they, they were ahead like 63... No, it was, uh, I don't know, 49 to nothing in the, in the, at halftime. It was Turner Gill and Mike Rozier? No.
[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah, they were both in-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 3]
... street clothes in the second half.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
But, but, but we beat them, we beat them the next year in, in, in the dome. They came and, and we beat them. We, we knocked out Ton Rathman on the 1st, uh, kickoff. Dicker- Derek Ward, number 58, he was, he was a tank, and he was hell-bent on c- creating, uh, a wedge buster. So tha- that's back in the day when they had the wedge buster, so he was-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah
[Speaker 3]
... he was per-
[Speaker 1]
All right, Stevie D, I'm passing you to Battod.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And I just wanna finish out Paul's post-NFL career. Uh, Paul co-founded the Joshua Frase Foundation in '96, uh, supporting research for myotubular myopathy, um, inspired by his son, Joshua. Um, and then Paul became a motivational speaker, mental health, uh, advocate, and author. Co-authored the book "Game Changer: Winning with Hope, Love, and Mustard Seed Power" in 2023. And he is the co-founder, uh, or co-host to "The Head Rush Podcast." So Paul, with that introduction, welcome to the show.
[Speaker 3]
Awesome. Awesome to be here. J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets. Sorry, Vince. Hey, Vince, really quick, I'll give it to you. When I came in, you guys were on your, you know, run to 4 straight Super Bowls, and, uh, my very 1st, uh,
[Speaker 3]
uh, experience playing in the Meadowlands on Monday night was Buffalo, and you guys were ahead like 38-nothing in the 1st half, and we didn't have a great comeback in the 2nd half. So kudos to you. I've, uh, I was with, uh, friends with Jim Kelly for a whi- for quite a while, and, you know, you play against these great quarterbacks 17 ti- I played against Jim Kelly 17 times, and then, uh, same with Dan Marino, uh, Elway 4 or 5 times. And, uh, you, it's, uh, it's pretty amazing some of the feats that you see these, uh, greats have. So, uh, anyway, I'll give it to you, man.
[Speaker 1]
But Paul, don't, don't, don't be mo- don't be modest there, because I'm gonna tell you, even in that stretch run,
[Speaker 1]
the games between the Bills and the Jets always seemed to come down to the very last play. One of the games I always talked to Stevie D about was the Jamie Mueller touchdown with, like, no time left on the clock. It, it's just, it, it's, it epitomizes what the rivalry really was, right?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
We didn't have a rivalry with the Patriots. We hated the Dolphins, but between the Bills and the Jets-
[Speaker 3]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... I mean, it just, it was just... There may not have been the same level of hatred, but you wanted... They, they really wanted to beat each other. And so, um, you know-
[Speaker 3]
So we-
[Speaker 1]
... it, it was always tough.
[Speaker 3]
We didn't like you guys. We, we, when, when we have beer bottles lofted up the, off the top of the snow pile by a guy in a snowmobile suit and pissed off that we finally beat the, you guys up in Orchard Park, um, you know, I think James Hasty, uh, w- I, I, you know, he, he, he, uh, he, um,
[Speaker 3]
he, uh, definitely, uh, showed, um, that guy, uh, where to go, uh, you know, through the bus window. So anyway.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, the good old days.
[Speaker 3]
The good old days, yeah, where you didn't get fined and nobody knew. So anyway.
[Speaker 1]
Exactly.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
But we, we, we value your time, um, and, and experience. Uh, just wanted to kind of go through a little bit of your Jet career, um, and, uh, kind of talk about maybe a, a few of your favorite memories with the Jets or somebody that you came across and had a, just had a great conversation with, with the Jets. Maybe like a Joe Namath or something?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah. That, it, it... I, I came in, uh, a year before the Dennis Bird era and, uh, and, uh, what a gentleman and a good teammate he was. I was coming in at the end of the... That was the beginning of the era. I came in at the end of the sack exchange era, and Marty Lyons took me under his wing, and I met Joe Klecko. He was already with Indianapolis, and he stayed over, uh, after Indy came to New York, and, uh, I met him, and a great, great guy. Gr- good... Just wonderful people, you know. Obviously played behind, uh, backed up Mark Gastineau for, for a half a season and, um, and, uh... But okay, Joe Namath story. Um, it was my 2nd year, and I was starting and, uh, we... Mart- Marty Glickman was a radio broadcaster for years, right? Maybe TV 2, but, um, he... It was his retirement party and, uh, Joe Namath was... Joe, Joe was the, um, MC. And, uh, so Fang, uh, Bill Hampton Sr., who was with the Jets, uh, for 38 years in the equipment room, he says, uh, he says, "Paul, hey, uh, Joe's gonna be, uh, down in the bar afterwards, and why don't you come down and hang out?" You know, and I was with my girlfriend. I go, I, I leave the event at, at the end. I walk in the bar, and there's a long table, like all the way, and there's 2 seats all the way at the other end.
[Speaker 3]
And Joe Namath is sitting with Fang at the 1st end. And I didn't know Joe to interrupt him and say, "Hey." And I literally walked down to my seats, way down, and Joe Namath, he got up and he walked the whole entire length of the table. He stuck his hand out and he says, "Paul, you're doing a great job out there. Joe Namath. Good to meet you." And I'm like, "Uh..." And, uh, and th- I, I... He was a classy individual and, uh, and, uh, it w- and,
[Speaker 3]
and I, I, I need to... Well, he...
[Speaker 3]
You talked about the Joshua Frase Foundation. I had a son with a muscle disorder and, uh, and, uh, he was one of 55 known cases in the world when he was born, so on and so forth. You know, well, how are you gonna get research money? Well, we started, uh, uh, Allison, my, my former, uh, from Long Island, had a lot of chutzpah. Let's, let's ra- use the NFL to raise money. And, uh, Joe Namath actually was so gracious. He gave me 5 jerseys signed Joe Namath, and we made a boatload of money. We were... We took them up to Boston where we did our fundraiser for 13 years and, uh, what a, what a, uh, reception that his jersey got. We got a... We had some, uh, uh, some people from Long Island, uh, some, uh, Wall Street guys from Long Island, Long Island would fly up to the event and pay a lot of money for the Joe Namath jersey. So it was very generous and, uh, a lot of, lot of the people from New York were generous and, uh, uh... So anyway, that's, that's my Joe Namath story. Classy guy. Obviously classier when, when he was not struggling with the beverage, which we all are
[Speaker 3]
if, if you have a problem with the beverage, which I did for years. But anyway, uh, yeah. Good, good people that I met along the way.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome. And so you, you went through and you went to Jacksonville. Unfortunately, we, we kind of left you out hanging there, um, and you went over to Jacksonville. They, they went and got you with Jeff Lagaman. And, and how was your time in Jacksonville?
[Speaker 3]
Great. Um, it was... Well, Tom Coughlin was a Bear, and he was a college coach. I mean, obviously he had spent time in the NFL, but as a college coach, he, he treat us, treated us like college co- uh, kids.
[Speaker 3]
Uh, Pete Carroll, um, my last year at the Jets, he would used to give the old guys, uh, a half of a day off every 4th or 5th day just so we could, you know, save our legs and stuff. And, um, uh, um, and, and I, I was in my 8th year when I first got to Jacksonville, and I was thinking, "Oh, maybe, maybe we'll get a little, uh, love, you know, you know, the old guys." And he put, he put us through hell. Took probably 3 years off my life, but you knew what you were getting with Tom Coughlin. And, uh, yeah, the, the 1st year was tough. 2nd year, went to the AFC Championship game, could, you know, had the opportunity to go to the Super Bowl, so that was a pretty cool experience. Um,
[Speaker 3]
I... We came in on different terms. Jeff was a free agent, and I was, uh, and I was a, a, a draft pick. So I got drafted in, in, uh, 2 times in my career, which is pretty un- usual. But, um, Jeff, Jeff's came with a 2 million dollar signing bonus and, and mine came with a... The day before the final cut, "Uh, Paul, we've got this rookie here. You're better than him, but we only have to pay him 80,000, so you, you better take minimum wage or, or you're done." And I'm like,
[Speaker 3]
"Uh,
[Speaker 3]
okay."
[Speaker 3]
But it was, uh... You know what? All that glitters is not gold, but what a ride and what an experience it was in the NFL, so.
[Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm. And then, and then you went to the Packers and, and you were fortunate enough to, to go to a Super Bowl with the Packers. Obviously it didn't end the way you wanted it, um, but, uh, what was that experience like? Uh-
[Speaker 3]
That was surreal. Um, it... Well, 1st of all, the 1st, uh, my 1st experience with the Green Bay Packers was a Monday night game against Chicago in Lambeau Field, and I'm like... I've never experienced this loud of a decibel of noise. What is going on? And then I saw Brett Favre sprint to the numbers on the right of the field and throw a freaking bullet l- on a rope, uh, and, and land 2 yards inside the corner of the end zone, and Antonio Freeman, his, his hands caught the ball 6 inches off the ground. And I'm like, "Oh,
[Speaker 3]
okay. I, I guess this is what it's all about." And, and, and obviously I understood what that Chicago-Green Bay ri- rivalry really meant to, uh, to the mid, the upper, uh, northern Midwest. It was, it... That was pretty astounding. And then having, you know, teammates like the, the Grave Digger, Chili, uh, uh, Gilbert Brown, and, uh, you know, backing up Reggie White. Reggie White, salt of the earth, just w- wonderful people and, uh, yeah. Had a great experience. Went to the Super Bowl in San Diego, 32, and John Elway finally won his 1st Super Bowl. So, good for John, bad for me. And, uh, obviously, that was my 10th year, got to the Super Bowl, didn't go back. It was all smoke and mirrors that next year at Baltimore. And, uh, and, uh, but, uh, had, had a good time in Baltimore, but, uh, the phone stopped ringing after that.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. Now, uh, with that Baltimore Ravens team, was that with Ray? Uh, was Ed Reed there yet? Peter Boulware?
[Speaker 3]
Peter, Peter Boulware. Uh, I met, uh, Ray at the 1st, the 1st week I got there. I, I, I, I actually got r- released from the, um, from the Green Bay Packers in my 2nd training camp with them. 1st time in 11 years, 10 or 11 training camps I got released. So I went home for 4, 4 or 5 weeks, and I stayed in shape, uh, but, you know, sulked a little bit, phone's not ringing, and then all of a sudden the phone rings. Uh, the Baltimore Ravens need a, a long snapper, and I went in and, uh, for the last, uh, 11 games of the season. But yes, I, I met Ray Lewis at a Bible study in Peop- Peter Boulware's house. Um, it was Ted Marchibroda's last year, and we were terrible. And, um, Jim Harbaugh was our, our quarterback. Not saying he was terrible, I'm just saying our team was, uh, in shambles. And I missed the Su- that Super Bowl by 2 years because '98 was my last year, and I think Bal- Baltimore won it in 2000 or 2001.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. 2000-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
I, yeah, the 2000 season, the 2000, I think, but the Super Bowl played in '01, yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Great experiences, though.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome, awesome. Well, uh, we're, we're glad to have you, like I said. Um, as we jump into your, your post-career and, and obviously you have the Joshua Frase Foundation that you started, you know, right before you, you, you finished your career. And then, uh, a couple years ago you started "The Head Rush," uh, podcast. So tell us, um, what made you start that, uh, that podcast and, and kind of go into a little bit of what that podcast is.
[Speaker 3]
Well, okay. It really stemmed from my life at 47 years old, my brain chemistry. I, I knew a lot about... You're, you're sensitive to a lot of the things in your body being a p- professional athlete. You know if you're wrong, you know if you're right, you know what's going on, and, uh, I was wrong. There, there was something in my head at 47. And fortunately, about 6 months... And I s- I started getting rage and just ridiculous, I, I call it unbridled rage episodes.
[Speaker 3]
And, um, uh, 6 months later, Chris Nowinski, who I had met, um, at the Joshua Frase Foundation, um, efforts, uh, to, up in New, New, New England, New Hampshire, uh, and he played at Harvard. He was a defensive lineman for H- Harvard, and then he got into professional wrestling, and then he was with Dr. Bob Cantu at the Boston University CTE Research Center, whatever they called it back then. And Chris actually called me about 6 months after my
[Speaker 3]
stuff started happening, and I, um,
[Speaker 3]
and I... He said, "Hey, Paul, you want to get involved with the... We're trying to find bar- biomarkers for this disease called CTE, and, uh, you want, you want in?" And I said, "Yeah." And he, uh, "How c- how soon can you get me up there?" Two weeks later, I'm on a plane and I start understanding what repeated head impacts will, can and will do.
[Speaker 3]
Um, fast-forward, uh, saw the movie "Concussion" about 3 years later, was completely demortal- demoralized. Watched that movie. Hey, it wasn't a feel-good movie. It was especially, you know, I mean, my, my, uh, Allison, the mother of my children, she saw it on a tr- a flight back from LA and she bawled her eyes out the, the entire flight. And, um, so, but f- just fast-forward a, a few more years, I see a movie called "Quiet Explosions."
[Speaker 3]
And I'm like, "Hmm." And it actually leaves you with hope. It is a great movie. Andrew Marr is a Green Beret blast explosives specialist, just badass. And, uh, um, Dr. Mark Gordon, it opens up with Dr. Mark Gordon and Andrew Marr on "The Joe Rogan Show," and they t- were talking about inflammation, inflammation, inflammation, period. And from that, that, I stalked Dr. Mark Gordon down in Miami. He was, uh, speaking at a, uh, a continuing education conference down there. I went down, I met him, I got on his protocol for, um, uh, inflammation in the brain, trying to d- quiet that cytokine storm in, in your brain. Do you know how, how long the inflammation will last, the inflammatory cytokines and, uh, um, biomarkers will last in your brain after the last, your final, your last sub-concussive hit or concussion?
[Speaker 3]
17 years. So it's just like, it's just like an Alzheimer's
[Speaker 3]
situation. You can have Alzheimer's, you can have, have developing Alzheimer's for 20 years before you get the symptoms. Same thing with CTE, same things with, with these ner- neurode- degenerative diseases, and they all stem from inflammation, inflammation, inflammation, just like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and you name it.
[Speaker 3]
Um,
[Speaker 3]
I could go on about that, but anywa- so, uh, I started doing a support group, um, uh, do- at Boston University,
[Speaker 3]
and, uh, and, uh, uh, a guy by the name of, uh, Corey Barry, he was a, uh, he was a rodeo guy, bare brown, bareback bronc rider for 9 years professionally. And, uh, we, we talked, uh, uh, talked to the te- together and we decided to do, uh, the "Head Rush" podcast. Since, uh, uh, since, uh, Corey has actually gone on to do, uh, a new endeavor, but, uh, we're, we're just getting ready to gear up, uh, the "Head Rush" podcast again in, in, uh, uh, a new format, but, uh, uh, uh, uh, better and, and, uh, we're gonna be doing some wonderful things, uh, in the future.
[Speaker 2]
Great. That's great.
[Speaker 1]
So Paul, let, let me ask you a question. You know, when we look at the game today, and it really seems like,
[Speaker 1]
uh, CTE, uh, and the concussions really came to the forefront with Mike Webster and Dave Duerson. That, that's where it, you know, it really got the public notice. But
[Speaker 1]
we're talking about a game that has been around since, what, the 1920s, you know, and
[Speaker 1]
you, you have the improvements in the equipment. But I never really heard of anybody from, we'll say, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, um, with concussions. A- and in my mind, I would think that the equipment would make it, uh, probably less likely. Uh, I under- I understand the violence and the speed and the impact, but when I have guys in leather helmets, h- how come I didn't hear about those guys getting concussions? If I have the guys with just the single bar, how come I didn't hear about it then?
[Speaker 3]
Well, I was talking to my head coach from, uh, s- my high school up in New Hampshire. He played at Boston University, and he's probably 87, 88 years old right now. And I was talking to him a cou- a few years ago about the difference in the helmets. He said, "When I played, uh, we had that ride out with the web, and the plastic floated on your head." You know, he says, "I don't re- I don't remember getting, you know, the concussions," just like you're saying, Vince. Uh, "I don't remember." And, and I've gotta believe, even with the leather helmets, I've gotta believe they did not use their heads as weapons as much. And we, w- uh, I'll, I'll show you my, my, my 2nd year helmet. You-- We used to... You see these gouges? This is, this is like hard, hard, hard, hard, and it's hard, hard to get one of these gouges, right? That, that's a nice one. But, um, they get one of these. I don't even see, uh, see it, uh, uh, in, in, in helmets nowadays. And, and I think they get a new one every day or every y- uh, week. We thought we were warriors because we skip- kept the same helmet. Now,
[Speaker 3]
um, did they take as many hits? I don't know. Did they use their, their heads, uh, when they had a, a leather helmet on like Ronnie Lott, uh, the missile going in and, and using his head to just blow someone up? I don't think so.
[Speaker 3]
The only way I can rationalize your question, and it's a great question, and we don't know the answer, but, uh, the only... Because the studies have not been done on it. But the only thing I can relate it to is our helmets were so snug and so tight,
[Speaker 3]
every impact you would get,
[Speaker 3]
you would get the brain sloshing. Obviously, the brain, 100 billion, uh, neurons, it's like a soft butter, the consistency of soft butter. Um, the, the brain, there's jagged edges in the, in the prefrontal cortex in the side of the skull, and, and, uh, you know, it's not smooth. So every single time the brain's floating in the fluid, every single time you whiplash or hit, the brain stops very abruptly against the skull.
[Speaker 3]
And I...
[Speaker 3]
Uh, just my theory,
[Speaker 3]
not gospel, and I'm not a doctor, but, uh, I think the tightness and the snugness of those helmets just impacted every little hit. It's on like a shock going through
[Speaker 3]
to your, to your head, to your brain, to so on and so forth. That's my opinion. Uh, that, you know, don't take that to the bank, but, uh, but, uh... Now,
[Speaker 3]
you know, the, one of the, um, recent, um, uh, the 24-year-old kid that sh- shot himself with the Dallas Cowboys, he w- he had CTE. Um, the, the, the youngest CTE brain autopsy, dead, offed himself, 15 years old.
[Speaker 3]
So,
[Speaker 3]
um, let's... My message is let's go back and educate the parents of repeated head impacts, and let's go back and educate them about the brain and how it's not even... ... protected in the prefrontal cortex, which is the last part of the brain to grow the myelin sheath that gives a little bit of protection around the axons. Doesn't-- It's a, it's not a foolproof protection and y- you know, that's why I say there's no safe age for these concussive sports. Hockey, soccer, uh, rugby, football, you, you name it. And, and, but the sport is not gonna end, so how do we make it safer? You know, h- what, what do we do to, uh, reduce those impacts? And, uh, I could go on and on about statistics and, uh... But I do, you know... We'll, we'll talk about how,
[Speaker 3]
how we can absolutely have an effect on, uh, you know, lessen the, um... You know...
[Speaker 3]
CTE, Boston University,
[Speaker 3]
346 out of 375, 91.7% dead NFL players that were studied, those brains, uh, had CTE. Okay. Bob Stern, who's one of the investigators on that study, says, "Hey, it's a biased sample because the, this player was acting the fool in his 70s or 60s and for the last 10 years, and his, his family said, 'You need to look at his brain.'" Well, they're gonna find something, whether it's white matter damage, vascular stuff in the brain. You know, there's, there's a hun- 10 things, 20 things, 100 things that it can be, but they're, they're finding CTE in a lot of th- those brains. What's the real percentage? It's not 91.7%, but what is the real? What is it, 50%? Is it 30%? Even, even 30%'s pretty darn high. So, we gotta go back and educate the parents. Uh, I mean, and, and the NFL's starting to... And it has to happen from the top down, and they're starting to push the flag football, and that's wonderful and that's good, but
[Speaker 3]
there's something more that we can do on those younger 7-year-olds and 8-year-olds. And, you know, and we'll, we'll absolutely un- un- unpack that, uh, uh, uh, you know. I know we're getting close, you know, time-wise, but, uh, we'll... I'd love to unpack that a little bit more, so...
[Speaker 2]
Well, it's interesting, right? So you brought up the, the front o- of the, of the, the brain, and you talked about, uh, the wall not being fully developed, right? And you... We're talking about these kids in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade, that hasn't developed yet, and those hits that they're taking, whether it's they're spearing, they don't know what they're doing, they're not being taught right, right? Instead of tackling the right way, you're, you're kinda leading with your head and, and that stuff kinda happens, right? So,
[Speaker 2]
we... We're talking about professional athletes that go on and play in college and pros and retire in their 30s or whatnot. But we're... I, I wonder what percentage of kids that really don't go on past high school, but because they played at a young age, they had those hits where you, where you were talking about wasn't developed here for protection, and that brain is sloshing, you know, back and forth, and the parents or the coach don't realize that the young man has been concussed, and putting them back out there for repeated trauma during the same game, right?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
And, and I wonder if that is where we see a lot of things going wrong with young kids that maybe don't even get to the professional, that go undiagnosed.
[Speaker 3]
Every year, and there's statistics from Boston University, every year you play football, organized football, headbanging football, you increase your,
[Speaker 3]
um, um, probability of getting CTE by
[Speaker 3]
an astronomical percent, percent, like 29%, every year. I played 20 years of organized football. I started at 14 in high school. Um, so this kid that had, uh, that was 15 years old, I guarantee his helmet's strapped, uh... His parents strapped the helmet on at 7 years old and let litty- little Johnny ra- rack his brain. And the problem is, you, they think, people think, "Oh, y- they don't have... They don't hit hard enough, you know, they don't..." No. They, they do. They, uh, th- they actually have tested it's almost as much G-force as an NFL hit. Uh, you know, 39 G- Gs, G-forces or whatever. Uh, and, um,
[Speaker 3]
so... And, and, and the helmet's 8 pounds still on these little kids. 6, 7, 8 pounds, and their necks, their necks aren't, uh, you know, strong enough. And you, you know, what, w- So, what do you have to do until the necks are strong enough? Um, y- quite frankly, my,
[Speaker 3]
my journey in the last 2 years has been an in- evolution from
[Speaker 3]
be- uh, uh, sitting with Chris Nowinski in the NFL owner's box at the Jaguars and talking about... I said, "Chris..." And this was
[Speaker 3]
10, 12 years ago. I said, "Chris, I, I chose
[Speaker 3]
to play this game. I chose to ram my head against..." And I did. I knew it wasn't good, but, but I didn't, you know, I didn't think about that. We didn't know how bad it was. But... And Chris said to me, he says, "Well, Paul, I know you chose it, but what about those 7-year-old kids?"
[Speaker 3]
And a lot of times those 7-year-old kids, through family members, through seeing the, the excitement of football on TV, getting wrapped up in this, uh, an exuberant mother, an exuberant father, whatever, um, "Johnny, don't you wanna play football?" And they start strapping on the helmet at 7 years old. Now,
[Speaker 3]
we've found out that repeated head impacts are the culprit. Not concussions,
[Speaker 3]
repeated head impacts. They say, um, you, you get up in, in college, in the NFL, they say you get up to f- 1,000 to 1,500 repeated head impacts a year.
[Speaker 3]
So, um, you know, college, 5 years, NFL, 11 years, how many, how many, uh, repeated head impacts did I get, you know? Um, and, and, and, and some, some doctors, some neurologists, very prominent, said, "Well, you know, the, the sensors were not right on the helmet, so we, we did the mouthpiece sensors, and it's only 350 hits a d- They're only taking 350 hits a year." Well, okay, you just proved our point that it, it takes less hits to get damaged, brain damage, you know? That you're, you're gonna damage your brain. And in that mo- this movie, "Quiet Explosions," there, there was, uh, the Notre Dame buster, um, what was his name? He, he's an older gentleman. He's in his 70s, and he was a superstar at, uh, USC.
[Speaker 3]
And he says, "I don't care if you're, you have a tank, you wear a tank around your head, you're gonna, you're gonna hit your head. You're gonna brain, your brain's gonna slosh around and hit your skull." So Ma- uh, Bruce Parkman
[Speaker 3]
had a son
[Speaker 3]
that ran off an 85-foot cliff,
[Speaker 3]
um, at 17 years old,
[Speaker 3]
and
[Speaker 3]
he played concu- concussive sports for 10 months out of the year,
[Speaker 3]
and nobody knew
[Speaker 3]
what he was dealing with. He was a sweet kid growing up, just a good-hearted kid, but he was tormented, okay? So Bruce Parkman, he's a Green Beret himself, he gets on the, um, trail of, okay, it might be this crazy disease called CTE. But anyway, I love what he says.
[Speaker 3]
If the NFL can stop hitting
[Speaker 3]
and, and lower hits in practice, why can't the seven-year-olds? Why do those seven-year-olds have to hit 4 days a week?
[Speaker 2]
The coaches.
[Speaker 2]
They're winning-
[Speaker 3]
The coaches
[Speaker 2]
... the Super Bowl, Paul. They're winning the Super Bowl.
[Speaker 3]
It's, it's, it's, it's, it now- nowadays, it's money, the, the traveling teams, the this and that. What, what, what, what drives it? Okay, the coaches. So if you take... And, and just for example, if you take
[Speaker 3]
80% of those... I mean, if you take, um, if you only hit one day,
[Speaker 3]
and let's say you only hit 4 days normally and g- game day, so you f- hit 5 days a week. Um, you take one day, uh, and you only hit one day, or you only ha- have one goal line practice or scrimmage that you really get into it, you hit it, and you, you tur- teach the kids just to, you know, grab and poke and s- and fight. Um, and, and you take away the hitting, and you just train these kids the other f- 4 days, train them hard, you can... In, in, in, in, in Baltimore, um, um, our, our coach that who, uh, he, uh, went on to coach the Cincinnati Bengals, um...
[Speaker 2]
Marvin?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, Marvin. Marvin would not have us in pads during the week, but we hand shivered, we hand shivered fast, we got off the ball, we ran to the ball, we did our agilities. We did all that stuff to just, th- th- that you do on, on that six-second play and the, uh, except hit your head. So co- coaches were starting to warm up to it in the NFL, but the kids were still, at 7 years old, hitting 5 days a week. You take... You hit only one day a week, you take 80% of the repeated head impacts away, and you take a lot of brain damage away from these kids.
[Speaker 2]
That's a great point.
[Speaker 1]
So, you know, when, when I was talking to Derek about, uh, today's show and what we were gonna talk about, um, part of the conversation we had, you know, I referenced some things that Steve had told me that, um, he saw firsthand with his son, right, in the coaching that is there. Um, I, I talked about some of the things that I had seen, uh, whether it be when I was coaching Little League or, uh, watching, you know, some family members play. And Steve, he had, had the point that's spot on, right? So most of these coaches that are out there aren't being paid. It's volunteer work, right? But in as much as it's volunteer work, you have guys that feel as though this is their chance to get the call-up to the NFL, right? And so they are trying to emulate what they see in the league, and they're trying to teach that to the youth that are out there playing today, leading with the head, right? Uh, putting the head on the ball, right? That I, I can tell you, and Paul, I don't know, uh, maybe you had the same experience. When you were younger, you were taught the fundamentals. You weren't taught certain things until it was more advanced level. Um, but what Derek really called out is that he... and he's working in the Atlanta area for this, is for there to be some level of certification. There, there needs to be, for these coaches that are, you know, teaching the youth, they need to go to some level of coursework, some level of education on what the fundamentals are. Your, your coursework can't be on what you see on ESPN or Fox or, or anything else like that, watching the game. You need to understand what it means to tackle. How do you do a form tackle? Right? It, that's the base, right? And then I'm with you as far as, um, reducing the amount of contact, uh, for... I, I think that's excellent.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
You, you know-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, go ahead, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
No, no, no. Go.
[Speaker 2]
I was just gonna say, in the brief time that my son played, uh, we actually, as I helped run the defense on the, on that, that one year, and we taught as a staff proper techniques. And we filmed, like every coach, you film every game. And we were surprised what we saw out of the opposing team.
[Speaker 2]
And, but there was a couple of teams that were, I would say dirty, where you're spearing and you're allowing the player to stand over the player and kind of taunt, and the officials don't do anything. At
[Speaker 2]
2nd, 3rd grade, I mean, come on. It, it's sportsmanship, right? You should be helping the guy up, not spearing him, right? And we sent... This is when I knew
[Speaker 2]
I, I was done with, with my son with it. When we sent tape to the league of what was happening to help bring change to the league for the better for the kids, we're 2nd and 3rd grade. It's like we said, when nobody's winning the Super Bowl, teach the fundamentals of the game, teach it the right way so when they get passed on to the next level, they're ready to go. And then that next level of coaches hopefully do this, the right thing and so on and so forth. And I remember it was probably game 6 out of
[Speaker 2]
8, I think, that we played, uh, in, in youth football, and I turned to my wife and I said, "You know what? I, I think Richard's done." I said, "I, I, I'm... This is, this is crazy." And she said to me, "Thank you." She goes, "I didn't know how to tell you that because you're, you know, you're the dad and football, rah, rah, rah, right? And it's about sports." And, and, and she just thanked me and I said, "You don't have to thank me. It's, you know, you see it with your own eyes." And you're talking about your child's wellbeing, right? Love the game of football. I just didn't like what I, I saw where he was playing in the league. And so we, we pulled him. And I wasn't worried about any backlash from any parents or anything like that. "Oh, what's the matter? You, you don't like your kid? It's too tough or too..." I wasn't worried about that. I could care less, right? I tell people where to go on that topic. But it, it's... I was just amazed me
[Speaker 2]
that the league did nothing with it.
[Speaker 2]
That's what shocked me. Like, they didn't care.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
We're talking about 2nd and 3rd graders and you don't care?
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
Mind-blowing. Mind-blowing to me.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. It, it's, it, it... So I, I kind of evolved over the past, uh, 2 years, 18 months, whatever, and, uh, it, it went from, you know, that conversation with Chris Nowinski 8, 10, 12 years ago, uh, uh, to, oh, starting to understand how the brain develops and literally the, the myelin sheath does not develop in the prefrontal cortex until your early 20s and, uh, later for some, uh, m- men, but earlier from, for some women. Uh, that's, that's probably why they're, uh, more mature than us, uh, at, at, uh, at those younger ages. But, but, um, I've al- I've, I've gotten to the point where I know enough about it, I know the science behind it, and I'm like, "Man, if a parent
[Speaker 3]
is educated
[Speaker 3]
about the dangers of repeated head impacts and what they're doing
[Speaker 3]
strapping a helmet on their 7-year-old kid, if they understand the repercussions, then they're culpable for
[Speaker 3]
little Johnny's mental health in 30 years."
[Speaker 3]
Because that's, that's the problem. You don't see it for years. And, and one of the, one of the 1st things that a kid at 18 or 19 years old that is starting to go through changes and getting dark, who used to be a good kid, but he's still going dark and he's isolating and going this and that and... And, uh, uh, one of the 1st things that the doctors should ask is, "Hey, how many head injuries have you had? How many... You know, do you play concussive sports? What's going on? You play hockey?" 1st, the, the, the youngest kid for a year, for a few years was a 17-year-old from, um,
[Speaker 3]
Boston University, Ann McKee, and he offed himself. He was a hockey player. And, and now, uh, University of Pittsburgh, Dr. uh, Ju- Judith Koffler, Koffler, um, worked on his, uh, an autopsy for a 15-year-old. So my deal went from, yeah, no, no helmets. You don't need helmets until high school. Well, my, uh, former, uh, uh, uh, co-host of the "Head Rush" podcast, he, he was like, "Yeah, you know, let them play contact it. Let them come in freshman year, work on their neck, work on their agilities, work on the weight room, get it, get them going, get good, good coaching, get good, you know, exactly what you're talking about, the coaching. And then, you know, put the helmet on and, and let them start banging, uh, yourself sophomore, sophomore year." Yes, that, that makes sense. That makes more sense than s- 7 years old. But I'm al- I'm, I'm to the point where, no, not until 18, and then you can make your own choice and your own decision to rack your brain. But you gotta, you gotta, you know... Will that ever happen? Not in my lifetime, I'm sure. But, um, but, but you can start hitting less.
[Speaker 3]
Y- you don't have to hit 4 days a week. You don't have to hit... I mean, I mean, you... I remember in, in college, excruciating headache for 2 weeks every time you, you, you took, uh, 800 milligrams of whatever, ibuprofen or whatever, just to get through a practice. And you're practicing with a concussion. Your head is so inflamed, your brain is just racked. But, um, anyway, Head Rush podcast, we love looking at modalities and trying to find treatments. Um, right now, uh, we're looking at a red light therapy, which, uh, th-there was a hu- there was a big clinical trial. You gotta check this out at BYU. Um, they just released a paper in March. You guys gotta go research that. But basically what they found is this red light, it's a intranasal photobiomodulation. Uh, it's a red light therapy, but they have a clip in the nose and that they actually send the i-infrared, uh, up the nasal passages. A ton of capillaries and veins or whatever, not veins, but a ton of, uh, uh, access to blood that it g- goes up into the, the brain area. But they find it, it redu- reduces inflammation. It actually, uh, has an effect on the mitochondria, on the ATP, a positive effect, and it, it, it, it actually e- excretes and helps excretes, um, some of the damage, damage, uh, damage that is caused, uh, by the repeated head impacts. And they are sm- they actually are, uh, they keep their intelligence and their, their reaction time, and they, um, actually... And so, so they, they are better players at the end of the season than they were at the, the, the beginning, literally. And, uh, the sham group, which would... It was a, a placebo te- uh, cl- uh, clinical trial, but what it, uh, what it, uh, did was the sham group, the placebo,
[Speaker 3]
100% of them had more inflammation
[Speaker 3]
at the end of the season than at the beginning of the season. The, the, uh, um, the other group that actually had the therapy, less inflammation from the beginning of the season to the end, end of the season.
[Speaker 3]
They had less inflammation, and they had better reaction time, and they had a, a better cognitive ability. So, okay,
[Speaker 3]
i- i- if we're gonna play football, we got, gotta be smart about it. Reduce the impacts, and let's find something that'll help these players stay on the field, if you want, if that's what you wanna do. I'm of the camp of young kids don't need to hit at least until 14, but there's no safe age to play these sports. Some,
[Speaker 3]
some kids
[Speaker 3]
don't... They're not cut out to play football. I mean, you, you, you get into the BDNF, the brain-derived neurotrophic factor, the neuroplasticity. Some... Genetically, I actually am low on that totem pole, so I don't respond... My brain does not respond to concussions. I don't get rid of the inflammation very well. I don't respond to... So I have low neuroplasticity. So should I be on the field racking my brain?
[Speaker 3]
Probably not, but I did it for 20 years. Um, but,
[Speaker 3]
you know, what, you know, what we are focused on is, okay,
[Speaker 3]
reduce the hits, reduce the impacts,
[Speaker 3]
play safer, coach sa- coach better, teach them how to tackle, take the head out of the game as much as you can. Oh, and by the way,
[Speaker 3]
find a modality that works. Don't put a kid on an SSRI drug just because they're getting depressed and they're isolating themselves at 17 or 18 years old. Talk to the kid and find out how many, uh, repeated head impacts he had and how, how much he, uh, played sports and soccer. I played soccer my 1st... I was coaching soccer probably... My, my daughter's 25. I was coaching her at 7 years old, so that's a long time ago, right? And, uh, and, and I was coaching her and her team, and I headed the ball, the ball one time, and I'm like, "Ah, that hurts." Man, that is serious stuff. Ser- I mean, there's no joke.
[Speaker 1]
So, Paul, I, you know, I was gonna ask you, in all the studies, in the reports, because we all know about the soccer moms, right? The soccer moms said, "No, I don't want little Johnny to play football 'cause it's so violent." And they're like, "But he can run around and play soccer," which is the hidden danger of just contact, right? The headers and the collisions and, and the corner kicks and everything else, and you're banging the head, and you have no protection.
[Speaker 3]
You go, you go back to the coaching, don't you? Because, um, I personally, uh, I had a rugby player from New Zealand. He was, uh, uh, all pro. They don't have all pro, but he was one of the best. He played professional
[Speaker 3]
soccer,
[Speaker 3]
um, and he played professional rugby. He said they had practices even when he was 14 years old that the coach would throw the ball at his head 100 times a day. Boom, boom, boom. Every one of that is a re- repeated head impact, and that's what causes the brain damage. And don't... Make no mistake about it. If you, if you have one axon shear off from hitting your head, that's brain damage. You're damaging the brain. I don't, I don't... I mean, so, you know, people are saying, "Oh, you're extreme. What are you talking about?" You know, well, you have 100 billion neurons. Yeah, remember,
[Speaker 3]
one thing I am glad about, do you remember, maybe you guys don't remember, but they used to tell us if you go out drinking the one night and carousing, you're gonna, you're gonna kill 10,000 brain cells, and you're not, never gonna get them back. Well,
[Speaker 3]
1st of all, your brain actually... I think it's the hippocampus that spits out 700, um, new neurons a day. So thank you, Lord. But-
[Speaker 3]
And let's go back, and I'm gonna throw a huge component into this.
[Speaker 3]
I'm gonna throw a huge component into this, diet.
[Speaker 3]
Food is the medicine.
[Speaker 3]
There's so many things that you can eat and ingest that actually take inflammation out of the body. Not Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, which I love.
[Speaker 3]
But you can, you can-- And, and, and in my age, and I- I'm finding out, I, I, I've been on a, um, uh, I did a sugar cut because I was pre-diabetic. How, how-- I, I don't wanna keep dragging on, but how, how long do we have?
[Speaker 2]
As long as you can go.
[Speaker 3]
Really good-
[Speaker 2]
It's up to you.
[Speaker 3]
Real- really, really fast. Uh, uh, uh, 8 months ago, I was pre-diabetic. I had s- uh, my glucose was going from 85 to 117 over 15 years, um, and my, uh, AC1 was at 6.4, pre-diabetic. I get serious about... I do a sugar cut. No more than one gram to t- or 2 grams of sugar in what I ingest, e- anything I ingest. I didn't have to, uh, starve myself. I literally just took the sugar out of my diet.
[Speaker 3]
8 weeks, I go back,
[Speaker 3]
um, hem- or, uh, uh, uh, glucose 91 from 117 down,
[Speaker 3]
AC1 6.4 down to 5.4,
[Speaker 3]
out of pre-diabetic.
[Speaker 3]
And, and, um,
[Speaker 3]
f- I, I, I, I can't tell you enough,
[Speaker 3]
food,
[Speaker 3]
good food, good healthy food, not processed food.
[Speaker 3]
Omega-3s.
[Speaker 3]
Omega-3s were found in, um, in 67% of suicides in one study. Uh, I think it was a couple of 100, uh, of our servicemen and women.
[Speaker 3]
And the omega-3s were s- found, uh, the ratio was found to be higher than 5.4 or something like that. They associated omega-3s, l- low doses of omega-3s in, um, mental wellness or brain health or brain wellness. Now,
[Speaker 3]
let's, let's go back. Before processed foods, omega-3 and omega-6. Omega-3 anti-inflammatory, omega-6 inflammatory. Both-- Th- the body b- needs both. They had a ratio of one to 3, one to 2, one to 3 back in the
[Speaker 3]
'60s or '50s before processed foods. Do you know what it is now? It's, it's, it's one in 26.
[Speaker 3]
So just, just ingesting the normal diet of Amer- great old America and the, the 3 tiers of, you know, the following the, uh, not the FDA, but the... No, no, all the, all the, all the...
[Speaker 3]
Don't b- get me started. But just by following that, your, your omega-3s are way out of whack,
[Speaker 3]
so you have to be concerned. Now,
[Speaker 3]
I took, um, I took it seriously. I took my health seriously, started eating better, make my own hummus, no seed oils. One of... You know, I can, I can go down that rabbit hole. I'm not going to. But literally making, uh, my o- uh, our, our own hummus. We make, um, our own, um, uh,
[Speaker 3]
sauerkraut. Great for the gut. All that vinegar and stuff and fermentation, great for the gut. When I took... I, and I got off all supplements, and when I took my blood tests, um, 2 months ago, everything was actually really, really good. Now,
[Speaker 3]
we've all heard little Johnny takes a couple donuts and Froot Loops. If I was able to eat Froot Loops every day of my life, I would have. But we di- we-- My mother made us have Cheerios, so... And powdered milk. And powdered milk. Go ahead.
[Speaker 2]
I, I hear that with the Cheerios or oatmeal. I never had the sugary cereals. Mom wouldn't allow it.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah. And the gl- the glyphosate with the oatmeal, uh, ugh, don't, don't even, uh, uh... I, we-- That's another show.
[Speaker 3]
Um, but
[Speaker 3]
we gotta reduce, we gotta figure it out, because it is,
[Speaker 3]
uh, you know, people say it's not as much of a problem, uh, as they make it out to, and Boston University is, uh, you know, doing scare tactics and... Oh, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's a real disease state, and, um, it can be avoided. So it's the only neurodegenerative, uh, um, disease that actually can be, uh, uh, avoided. It's the only one.
[Speaker 2]
You know, Paul-
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 2]
... you know, hearing your story, you know, as a player into what you're doing today, um, it, it, it really is unbelievable the education that, that you are bringing, because it is so important, and these topics should be talked about, and they shouldn't be swept underneath the rug. And parents should have the opportunity to hear stories just like yours that you're telling right now, um, because at the end of the day, you love your children,
[Speaker 2]
and they should always be put 1st and not a sport.
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 2]
Doesn't matter if a coach says, "Hey, little Johnny's my guy. I need him back on the field." You as the parent have to recognize the signs in your, in your child that that child is not ready to go back. And if that person needs to sit out 3, 4 weeks, or the rest of the season, do it. Don't rush back for a coach.
[Speaker 3]
And they, they can't-
[Speaker 2]
It's huge.
[Speaker 3]
Really quick, they can't be peer pressured or coach pressured, you know, "Toughen up." You know, no, please. You gotta get that out of the game. You know, it's not gonna sissify the game. You're still gonna have massive, uh, bone-crushing hits. Vince, I'm sorry I cut you off.
[Speaker 1]
No, I, I, I was just gonna say real snarky. I said, I was gonna say, "Steve, how are we gonna get that NIL money?" How are we gonna get that 1000000 dollar contract if little Johnny has to sit out, you know, 4 or 5 weeks?
[Speaker 3]
I put, I put Brett Favre on, on, on, uh, on kind of a... I asked him directly, I said, "Hey, what do you think?" Because we had him on the Head Rush podcast, and he was talking about his parkinsonisms and, uh, uh, so on and so forth. And, uh, he said, I said, "What do you... Why do you think the NFL is not pushing,
[Speaker 3]
you know, flag football more, and why do you think these 7-year-olds are still allowed to put helmets on?"
[Speaker 3]
And he said, "It's money, Paul. It's money." And we all, we, we all know that. So, Steve, you just mentioned, and, and, and, and Vince, with your snarky comment, it, it's why are, why are we not taking into account our children's wellbeing and really,
[Speaker 3]
really protecting them? We protect them against alcohol as much as we can. We protect them against smoking. We protect them against whatever, uh, all of the i- the ills of society. But we
[Speaker 3]
glorify the, the mashing of, you know, flesh and bone. And, and I, I, you know, okay, I, I loved, I loved, I loved going out to the numbers when Thurman Thomas was, was, uh, spread, doing a, a sprint out, and I loved ear holing him and taking him down. We still lost the game though. But you... And, and I loved slipping through the line and hitting Eric Dickerson in the backfield. And I, well, I, I didn't love that particular one because he saw me coming, and he hunched down when he got the ball, and he gave me everything, and I gave him everything, and he... My helmet was twisted, and my chin strap was up over my nose, and I was seeing stars. And he was, he was, uh, he was strong. Um, anyway, and, you know, okay, it, it, it was... Yeah. But, but we didn't, you know, we didn't know as much as we know now back then. So let- let's, let's take a little precaution on, on the, uh, uh, you know, let's, let's err on the side of prec- uh, of, of health for our kids' mental wellbeing and brain health, brain health down the line.
[Speaker 4]
Um-
[Speaker 1]
You know, one of the things that I... Oh, I'm sorry. One, one of the things that I am happy to see is when you watch the 7-on-7 or you watch some of these larger flag football, they're all forced to wear the headgear. So that is a change in, you know, you start talking about the NFL, because the NFL is a big proponent now of this flag football, right? So they're, they're-
[Speaker 3]
Yes
[Speaker 1]
... like the title sponsor.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
So they are forcing, at least at that age, right, all of these kids to wear the headgear. And I think that's at least... Because I have a lot of negative to say about the NFL and about what Roger's done, but I, I have to give him credit and give him kudos for that.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. It, it's, it's, uh, it's a start. Um,
[Speaker 3]
there needs to be a lot more research on some of these, um, potential th- therapies. Uh, you, you're still gonna, you're, you're, you're still gonna get your head sloshing, your brai- brain sloshing and hitting the, the skull, but it is a start. Um, you're, they, they have... I believe they have proven that the, the, the guardian caps or whatever can help a little bit with G-forces or a little bit with, uh, absorption of the, uh... But it's still, it's still gonna happen. Um, yeah. But less, i- it's gonna happen less and less, and obviously they're, they're not using their heads as missiles anymore, or trying not to, I guess.
[Speaker 3]
Uh, yeah, I wa- I was pretty... It was pretty cool when, when Pete Carroll went to, um, um, when he went from USC to, uh, Seattle. He was one of the first, uh, and, and even, you know, even when they had the Legion of Boom, right, he was one of the 1st to start, uh, showing the tackling for, like, the ki- kind of hog tying, you know, trip them up, you know, you know, take out their legs type of thing instead of using your head. Yeah, because Ronnie Lott obviously, uh, uh, he was actually, uh, in Pete Carroll's last couple years, Ronnie Lott left for the Raiders and came to play with us. What a, what a gem of a human being. And, uh, but he was still... Oh man, he was still missile. Boom! And, uh, but, um, uh, you know, I haven't talked to him for quite a while, but I'm, I'm sure he's doing okay. But, uh, Pete, uh, again, Pete Carroll was, uh, proactive in, uh, trying to coach and, you know, a better technique and keep the head out of, uh, the game. But, uh, yeah, keep... L- lower the, the, the drills that you, you rack your brain, you know. Lo- l- take away a lot of those, those drills. Work on agilities and work on hand placement, work on... Uh, my 1st step, George O'Leary killed us as a defensive line coach. But h- I, my... He drilled into me 4-inch 1st step, because if you take a 4-inch 1st step as a d- defensive lineman, your feet, both feet are on the ground, and you're able to redirect. You're able to shuffle. You're able to jack. You're able to, to have power come out of your legs because your stance and when you hit those, those linemen. And, uh, just from that technique, teaching that technique, I think that, that helped me. That probably helped me more than anything of getting in the NFL. Obviously, I was kind of fast. Obviously, I, I had a drive that, you know, uh, Paul Zimmerman actually, uh... And I didn't know... ... who Dr. Z was and, you know, but, but he said, uh, phrase and, uh, who was the other kid? Um, uh, Blair, Blair Thomas, I think. Or, or no, uh, uh, it wasn't that year, but he, he was, uh, he's saying, "Oh, th- this kid is, uh, underrated and, you know, he- his motor never stops." Well, the motor never stops keeps a lot of guys in the league for years if they have a little bit of talent. And, uh, you, you,
[Speaker 3]
you know, you can teach that better
[Speaker 3]
without cramming, you know, uh, banging heads. That's,
[Speaker 3]
that's my story. I'm trying to, I'm trying to preach the gospel and, uh, to whoever will listen. Uh, but, uh, yeah. Great.
[Speaker 2]
I, I, I got 2 things for you, Paul, um, uh, before we let you go. Um,
[Speaker 2]
Al Toon,
[Speaker 2]
have... Do you talk to Al Toon? Obviously, as Jet fans, we know the story of Al Toon a- and, you know, coming over the middle, taking those hits. Have you talked to him? Has he been with the "Head Rush," uh, podcast? And-
[Speaker 3]
No.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Speaker 3]
And I would love, I would love to talk to him. I've heard... I, I know he was a Wisconsin kid. Uh, Don Davey was a Wisconsin guy. I have not been able to contact, uh, get in contact with Al Toon.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. Um, and then secondly, you know, Vince mentioned Roger Goodell. We're not huge fans of Roger and some of the things he's done with the league, um, uh, since he's taken over. But one thing that we don't agree with is Thursday Night Football. Uh, you have-
[Speaker 3]
Mm
[Speaker 2]
... players playing on, on Sunday-
[Speaker 1]
Glad you brought that up
[Speaker 2]
... right? Play- playing on Sunday, and now all of a sudden you're a player-friendly league, um, where you're about player safety, but yet you're gonna allow 2 teams to turn around with only 3 days rest to go play again on Thursday night. What, what is your take on Thursday Night Football?
[Speaker 3]
I didn't realize how dangerous repeated or a 2nd, uh, head syndrome is. I, I, they have a pers- s- specific name for it, but you can die from concussions back to back. And, and, um, it, it's... Yeah, there, there's, there's n- definitely not enough, uh, time to, to, uh, get inflammation out of the brain after 3 or 4, 4 days. Um, you're already back on the field, uh, the day after the game. Um, uh, yeah, it, it's,
[Speaker 3]
yeah, there's, there's been a couple tough decisions that I've struggled with too. And, and one is actually the, the... When, when, when I 1st got to the Jets, it was, uh, the fir- the very 1st meeting of, of every year, Leon Hess would come up and talk, and then, uh, then we'd have the league saying, "Stay away from those bar, bars that run the numbers and the bookies." You know, "You, you, you can't... You get involved with... You stay away from them." Now, now the NFL owns the betting, uh, and, and I'm, I'm not a fan of that. I really am not. Um, I don't understand. It, it got them through COVID,
[Speaker 3]
um, that, that's for sure. And it's, uh, oh, are we talking about money again? Uh, it's-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 3]
So, um, but
[Speaker 3]
y- if the NFL... The, uh, it, it does have to stop. The education has to start in the NFL. They don't hit as much. That's, that's a fact.
[Speaker 3]
Um, but I think they need to be proactive and really speak out against little Johnny and Susie now, because Susie's, at 7 years old, is playing football.
[Speaker 3]
So little Johnny and Susie, no helmets, no, no s-
[Speaker 2]
Even soccer, right? Any sport, volleyball.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Any sport that, that-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... you could be hitting your head, right? Uh-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah, exa- yeah. And, and I, obviously I talk football because that's... But, uh, any concussive sport, there's no reason. The, the, the... I was talking to some hockey players, Ales Hemsky, 16 year, uh, from, from the, uh, Czech Republic, uh, played 16 years in the NHL. Um, they are starting to, you know, you can't check in the younger leagues, you know, and they, they, they try to... You know, they're implementing rules. Soccer up in, uh, Canada, I guess it's the s- 1st... I don't know if it was the professional or, or, or, or, or the college or school a- ages that they were only allowed to head the ball 10 times, uh, a week or something like that. So it's the 1st... So things are starting to trickle in, but we're, we're, we're losing a kid at 24 years old, uh, from brain, um, health problems, uh, killing himself and having CTE. Um, is CTE the, uh,
[Speaker 3]
is the, is the CTE the cause? We can't say that. We can't say that. But we know CTE, uh, is definite, definite symptoms. And s- part of the symptoms are irrationality, uh, uh, addictive personalities, rages, uncontrolled rages, you name it. But, um, but again, can't say it caused him to kill himself because that suicide is a very complicated, um, uh, act, um, um, fr- by the individual. And there's so many things that
[Speaker 3]
could and do attribute to it. But, uh,
[Speaker 3]
uh, yeah, I mean, mm, the, we're, we're... Yeah, go ahead.
[Speaker 1]
Paul, you, you said something earlier. You were talking about the repeated, uh, shots to the head or shots to the brain, and then you followed up and you said, uh, "They need to change the drills." And what that struck me with was the Oklahoma drill.
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 1]
Right? And that is one of the... Or bull in the ring, right? That's another one.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
That-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... the, the Oklahoma drill,
[Speaker 1]
if, if you think about this, you, you would have 2 guys laying down, right? They get up in, I mean, no more than 3-yard span, right? Something like that. And you hear pads cracking, helmets popping, and if you didn't make the tackle, they tell you, "Get down and do it again."
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 1]
And so now it's the repeat- And now you're going even harder, right?
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
Because you just messed up. And pads cracking, helmets popping again, and then they'll have you do it again, right? And, and it's the repeatedness of what you were just talking about. And you think about that, that you... There were times, and especially in the summer before they, it really got going, that you would run Oklahomas every single practice.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
For like 3 or 4 weeks straight. It, it... That was... That is violent. Violent.
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 1]
And then you think about-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... what it does to the brain.
[Speaker 3]
It's violent, and the whole team is standing around yelling, and, and you, you've seen-
[Speaker 1]
Yes
[Speaker 3]
... some of the videos of the coaches, "Get back up, ah!" You know, just going nuts.
[Speaker 1]
Yep.
[Speaker 3]
And really, yeah. Yeah. Really, really quick to that point.
[Speaker 3]
Um, repeated head impacts. Uh, um, CTE is a, a tauopathy. I guess the, the, it, it, it, it involves the tau protein. Um, tau protein is good in your brain, uh, in your, in your CNS, your central nervous system. Tau protein actually brings structure to the microtubules down the axonal, um, uh, little tubes where the, um, neurotransmitters actually flow from the neuro- uh, neurons down the axons into the dendrites, and then they spread, okay? And, and I, I know we're getting late. But, um, so, uh, the, the mi- the tau,
[Speaker 3]
tau comes to the rescue after a head impact.
[Speaker 3]
If the tau comes to the rescue after the head, h- head impact over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and doesn't have any time to, uh, rest and get the inflammation out, the tau can, becomes c- uh, what they call phosphorylated.
[Speaker 3]
And it's tau, like a nail, phosphorylated tau, like a bent nail. That's they... That's what BU described it very, uh, th- that's the only way I can understand it. So, but the bottom line is, you know,
[Speaker 3]
actually the tau actually starts degrading and damaging those microtubules whe- where, uh, important, like acetylcholine, which ha- handles your heart rate, your breathing, your autonomic system. Acetylcholine travels down those, uh, those axonal, the, uh, microtubules. And the tau gets damaged and damages those microtubules. That's why you have neurons starting to shut down and ki- be, be killed, and you get the black spots like in Junior Seau's brain and Dave Duerson's and y- you, you name it. Uh, Mike Webster and so on and so forth. Um, you have to give the brain a rest. You have to,
[Speaker 3]
and you have to stop shaming these kids if they say, "Hey, Coach, my head's not right." "Okay,
[Speaker 3]
get... You know, it, it's time. It's time for you to get off the field, okay? No problems. You know, let, let, let's get you back on the f- you know, get, get you ba- better, take a rest, find out what's going on." Um-
[Speaker 1]
Paul, you gotta talk, you gotta talk to Tua. You have got to talk to Tua.
[Speaker 1]
And I-
[Speaker 3]
Why? Uh, who, who has him, wh- who has him brainwashed that, uh, that, uh... I, I don't know. I mean, what... He's, he's a smart kid.
[Speaker 3]
What's going... Who, you, you... Uh, do you guys know him personally? Uh, uh, I mean...
[Speaker 1]
I, I, I, I don't. I don't, but all that I've heard is that it was the family was pushing for that contract. That, that's what I've heard. But you, you look at what he endured, and y- again, you talk about back-to-back concuss- concussions. You talked about that earlier.
[Speaker 3]
He-
[Speaker 1]
He, he, he took... He had a horrible hit from Matt Milano in the Bills game that they then said it was a back injury. I mean, this is the, this is the league that, that we're talking about, and this is his team and his organization saying, "Oh, no, you can come back in in the 2nd half. It was a back injury." We know it wasn't. We saw the head hit the ground. And then Stevie D., what game was it? It was, like, the next game, I think.
[Speaker 5]
Next game.
[Speaker 1]
Was it Pittsburgh? Was it Pittsburgh or-
[Speaker 5]
I don't remember.
[Speaker 1]
I forget. He, he got thrown around like a ragdoll. Again, head hitting, I mean, full force. Uh, and then they're like, "Oh, well, maybe he does have a concussion. He needs to sit out."
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
But he's had so many. It's so fragile. You, you talk about just the fragility of the brain. It, it... At some point, and I, you know, I'm not a Tua fan, right? I wa- definitely was not a Dolphins fan. Not a big Tua fan. But I, I'm a fan of human life. I, I'm a fan of the wellbeing of man, and somebody has got to get to him and say, "Look, teaching you how to fall, that's not gonna do it." Right? 'Cause that, that was the big revelation. "We're gonna teach you how to fall."
[Speaker 1]
Uh, he's got a concussion after that. It, it's not that, right? But you have got to stop. And I, I feel bad for him because to... Your, your question is-
[Speaker 1]
Who got to him? I, I think it's the parents. I, I think it's the family. I think it's the pressure maybe that he feels that, that he's carrying on his shoulders that, "I have to provide for everybody." But Tua, you made enough to provide for them. You, you did. You absolutely did. And the only thing you're doing is, is shortening your life and, and you could run the risk, you know, and, and God forbid, you, but you could run the risk of something happening in the very near term. So I just-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... yeah, I, I hope he watches this and listens to you, watches your podcast, listens to you. Something's gotta, gotta strike.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Uh, i- it's, I, I, I watched that with just incredulous, um... I was stupefied of how they allowed him back in the game. I, I did not understand that. Um,
[Speaker 3]
i- i- is he... Was, were they trying to make him the next Patrick Mahomes? Or I, I don't know what they were doing. I don't know what Miami was doing. I don't know what the NFL... I, I, if it... I, I would have thought that, um, uh, Goodell would have made a phone call from New York, uh, uh, down to Miami if it was a home game down there and said, "Hey, uh, he's done." Um, I don't know. I, I don't... I, I mean, I, I know, I have ideas. I have ideas and, uh, and, and, and he's a competitor and he's... Obviously, he's, uh...
[Speaker 3]
I don't...
[Speaker 3]
Me personally, I, I, I've, I've been able to step back out of the game and really research it and understand, understand how dangerous it is. Um-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 3]
... especially the repeated... I mean, the, you, you can die from, uh, uh, the 2nd concussion syndrome, wha- whatever. Like, I g- again, I, there is a name for it. It's, uh... You can tell I'm not a doctor, but I just,
[Speaker 3]
uh... Yeah. I, I did, I did start learning a lot about genetics with my son, um, and, uh, uh, that, that was quite a journey and, uh, that, um... You, you start learning about science, but you start learning how to ask the right questions too, uh, to-
[Speaker 1]
Well, you could have, you could have fooled us 'cause, uh, I, I was taking it all in and you sound just like my doctor. You gotta eat right, you gotta eat these foods, you gotta do these things. That sounds like my doctor and then, you know, stop, you know, banging your head on the wall. Okay, that makes sense.
[Speaker 3]
My, my mom wanted me to be a doctor, so, uh, uh, but I, I chose football. Uh, uh, football been very good to me.
[Speaker 3]
But whatever. But, uh, yeah, I mean,
[Speaker 3]
yeah, there's just, there's, there's changes. I think changes are coming, much needed changes. So-
[Speaker 1]
W- was that, was that from the, um-
[Speaker 2]
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-
[Speaker 2]
Sammy Sosa, Sammy Sosa.
[Speaker 1]
No, no. Uh, was that Johnny Car- was that Johnny Carson?
[Speaker 3]
W- yeah, I, I-
[Speaker 1]
This is way back in the day and they had... They were going through the lineup and they had, like, this lineman and he's like, "You know, number 75, football been good to me."
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that's right. Football been very good to me. That, that's, that's what it was. That was what... Hey, one, one thing, you know, in, in... You know, you're so enamored and people are enamored with it. I was enamored to meet Joe Greene. You know, he was p- coaching for the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive line and they brought me in when I was a free agent, or I was unprotected with the Jets before that draft. And, uh, or plan B, that, that plan B debacle. Man,
[Speaker 3]
that's, uh...
[Speaker 3]
And I, I digress. Talking about 55,000 dollars, you know, rookie salary and, and, and, and these, these kids nowadays, what, 840,000 is the minimum wage, so good, good for them. So...
[Speaker 1]
Taking pay cuts when they come in the league for what they-
[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... get in college now.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, you, you're going back to the NIL. Yeah, I... Unbelievable that, that, that program, uh, got out of hand the way it did. Uh, there, there should have been... 1st of all, if a kid
[Speaker 3]
signs a contract for 3 years, he should have been
[Speaker 3]
obligated to that contract for 3 years, not taking off-
[Speaker 1]
100%.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, I, I, I didn't get that. I mean, there, there's, there's business, there's contracts in business that you have to adhere to. It's not, you know... I just, I, I just... I was having a, a conversation with a dear family member from Zaire, the National Republic of the Congo, and we were, we were talking about world politics and stuff. And I said, "You know what?
[Speaker 3]
The... Our society has... If, if it was devoid of greed and power-hungry people, it would have been the best eco- economical society, period, you know, on the face of the earth." But the greed and the, the power struggle is, is what takes it down, which it is probably what takes down a lot of...
[Speaker 3]
I, I, I didn't... I was... I didn't take history and sociology, uh, uh, very seriously in college, but, uh, yeah. This world...
[Speaker 3]
Okay, we'll just... It will go back to love and respect and, um, and, and honoring life,
[Speaker 3]
um, and relationship. Relationship is
[Speaker 3]
so important.
[Speaker 2]
It is. It is. So Paul, how about this? H- how do we... How does the audience get to see the Head Rush po- uh, podcast? Where can they find you? How can they reach out? Um, and, and, and, and again, same thing with the, the Joshua Phrase Foundation. Um...
[Speaker 3]
Well, we're, uh, so, so, uh, one, the head-
[Speaker 2]
Oh.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh.
[Speaker 1]
Looks like we had a little difficulty there, Stevie D.
[Speaker 1]
Man.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, he's trying to come back. I can hear him a little bit.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Oh, he dropped. We'll, we'll see if we get him back. We'll, we'll, we'll see if we can get him back.
[Speaker 1]
Man, Stevie D, um,
[Speaker 1]
there's just so much to unpack,
[Speaker 1]
um, in, in, in what he's talking about. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I... You know, all the way from the 7-year-olds, right? And, you know, and he talks about, you know, his opinion, no, no contact until, you know, 18, which makes a lot of sense, right? Because you, you want the, the brain to fully develop. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I, I think there's a society problem, right? Because, um,
[Speaker 1]
it's about being macho, right? The, the machismo. Um, and if you have a son, right? The 1st question people say, "Is he gonna play football?" Right? Because that's the big, tough, burly.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
But it's, it's all sports. And I, I think we're naive to it. I w- I'm glad he brought it up. I wanted to ask him about soccer, because soccer, uh, I, I don't wanna use this term, but you'll get where I'm going, is kind of like the silent killer, right? And so many of the, um, moms, you know, we call them the soccer moms, right? They pulled their kids out of playing football because they were afraid that they were gonna get hurt. And they said, "You're gonna play soccer."
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Because they thought little Johnny's just gonna run up and down the field and kick a ball and score a goal. But now you have direct head-to-head contact without a helmet. And I'm not saying that it, you know, safe and s- but now you're taking that, and you're heading the ball. And he was talking about a coach making a guy head a ball 100 times, right? So it doesn't matter what sport. Hockey, right? The same thing. Um,
[Speaker 1]
it... We, we have to be more cognizant. There has to be more research, and there has to be more done, uh, for, for the youth. And, um, I don't think it'll ever change. I, I don't think it'll ever change. We can make some changes to it, right? Like, like y- the 7 on 7 wearing the head guard. Um, you can make some changes to it. But at the end of the day, we're a society about, you know, being tough, um, you know, being able to pound your chest, uh, wanting your kids to live in your footsteps, or trying to live your life through your kids, right? Then you have the opposite. You couldn't do it, so you want little Johnny, you wanna be, you know, see him do it.
[Speaker 2]
It's amazing how often that is the reason right there.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Like, the, the parent living through their child and pushing that child to do stuff that they may not want to do because they didn't do it or didn't have the talent to do it, or whatever the case may be. They had injuries, they, they stopped early, but they, they wanna see their kid, you know, be a-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... o- old world player. So, um, you know, just... I know we lost Paul here, but, uh, for our audience, um, for Paul, you can catch Paul on the Head Rush po- uh, podcast on Facebook. Uh, you can join the Face... Oh, there he is.
[Speaker 1]
Oh.
[Speaker 2]
It looks like he's coming back. Um,
[Speaker 2]
yep.
[Speaker 2]
No, g-
[Speaker 2]
no, no, no, no. No, you're gonna come up. We're just working to get you back on the screen here. Um, and, uh, you're gonna be up on the screen here in a second. Um, and we were just gonna... We were just about to say where they can find the Head Rush, uh, podcast and, and such. So, uh-
[Speaker 3]
Exactly. I'm sorry about that.
[Speaker 2]
There we are.
[Speaker 3]
All right.
[Speaker 2]
And he's back.
[Speaker 2]
So, if you wouldn't mind telling the audience wh- where they can find the Head Rush p- uh, podcast.
[Speaker 3]
Absolutely. So, uh, we are going through, uh, uh, uh, a few changes at the Head Rush, uh, Head Rush podcast. Um, we're going to have the sites up and running, uh, all of the social media sites. Uh, we were on, uh, Instagram, um, and, uh, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, the, the whole deal. So... But you can, uh, DM me at Paul Miles Phrase from Facebook. Uh, I'm at, uh, Instagram, uh, paul.phrase. Uh, I guess that's, uh, how they say it. Uh, but, uh... And then you can actually g- find me on Facebook at Paul Phrase 91 as we're going through this change. Um, one of, one of the quick things I, I wanna talk about really, really briefly, this book is a, is a, um, award-winning book. Uh, my former wife and I wrote it about our son and Jo- Joshua. Joshua, um, uh, had myotubular myopathy. It was one of 55 known cases in the world. And, uh, we... Uh, now there, there's 5 to 8,000 kids out there, and we, uh, finished, uh, 24 years of research with, uh, a clinical trial, and 20, 20 kids are, uh, uh, alive today that, uh, quite possibly, uh, could have deceased. So, um, that's, uh, the, the Joshua Phrase Foundation. You know, we do, uh, still do some advocacy work there. Um...
[Speaker 2]
How can people-
[Speaker 3]
Uh, paulfrase.com.
[Speaker 2]
Do you take donations there?
[Speaker 3]
Yes. Yes, we do at the, the Joshua Frase. It, it's pleasedonate.org, I believe. Um, but if you go to the Joshua Frase Foundation, you, you can absolutely press on the donate, uh, button. Um, buy, buy this book. Uh, it's a, it's a very i- inexpensive book. It's a quick read, and it's, uh, uh, it's a phenomenal... I mean, uh, it's just got a lot of twists, turns, ups, downs, and, uh, uh, so, um... But yeah, they-
[Speaker 1]
Hey, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Hey, hey, Paul, would you be okay if we, uh, put a link to-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... where they can buy the book on our website? So we have-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... uh, OW Sports Network.
[Speaker 3]
Absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
Uh, and I-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... I started thinking about we should create a library, right? So we had, uh, Derek, and we could put his and the link to that, and can we do the same for yours?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that would be wonderful. Yeah, I mean, right now it's easy to just go to Amazon, "Game Changer," Paul Frase, and, uh, you can bring it up pretty, pretty easily from that. Um, so, uh, yeah, we're, we're, we're excited about... You know, I'm excited about s- education and bringing awareness to, you know, these, these families, and, and the parents mostly, you know. Um, uh, we, uh, you know, we, we were just getting started with the Head Rest Foundation, um, getting, getting a lot of, uh, uh, uh, legalities and bylaws and s- things that, uh, we, we, we wanna, we wanna be a help to people that suffer from repeated head impacts. Um, and, uh, and, and again, we're researching therapies, uh, we're researching modalities, um, and, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna keep pushing until, uh, until we, we're told to stop.
[Speaker 3]
So, but, uh, yeah. Uh,
[Speaker 3]
and, uh, I'm sorry I don't have a, a lot, lot of information right now, but the Paul Miles Frase, uh, uh, w- Facebook, easy to DM me. Uh, Paul Frase on LinkedIn, easy to get in touch with me, and, uh, I'm happy to have, uh, conversations about repeated head impacts with, uh, anybody and any time.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome. Thank you, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 2]
Man, we really appreciate your time tonight. You gave us a, a lot of time. Um, I know we talked about o- only having you on for 40 just to respect your time, and, and you gave us a lot more than that. And, and not only for, for Vince, but our audience, you know, it's that education piece that is, that is so, so valuable. Um, and, and it takes a village, right, to raise kids. And-
[Speaker 3]
A- absolutely. And-
[Speaker 2]
... you know, having this knowledge is, i- is great.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. And, and it's great to cr- uh, it, it's great to cross paths. Uh, you guys taught me some things tonight, and, uh, and I'm gonna adhere to them and use them. And, uh, I really, really appreciate your time. Um, and your... I, I appreciate... I mean, because not a lot of people talk about this. It's not a sexy topic, you know? Uh, people don't tune in to your, your brain health and wellness, uh, section, you know, too often, uh, especially with boring neurologists. So hopefully, we brought a little spice to it. And, uh, and let- let's, let's, let's watch out for our kids. You know, let's watch out for their brain, uh, health. And, uh, uh, we don't... You know, we, we had Dr. Amen. Uh, he's a, a, a board-certified psychia- uh, psychiatrist, and he's w- very, very popular and, uh, written 21 bestseller books. And, uh, he, he... W- the one thing that we, we preach is you don't... he preaches you don't have to settle with the brain you have. You can make it better, all right? So in, in the education for the, my NFL breth- brethren,
[Speaker 3]
you might be dealing with
[Speaker 3]
bad stuff from repeated head impacts, but there's hope.
[Speaker 3]
There's hope. You don't have to take, you know, uh, you don't have to take drugs and alcohol to deaden the pain. You don't ha-- I mean, and it's real. The pain's real, because y- you kinda, you kinda, "Am I going psycho? Am I going cuckoo? What's go- what's wrong with me?" You know? I, I, I, I...
[Speaker 3]
Kerry Blanchard,
[Speaker 3]
New York Jets. Did you know, did you know he was diagnosed with CTE?
[Speaker 2]
The kicker?
[Speaker 3]
The kicker.
[Speaker 2]
No, I didn't.
[Speaker 3]
But what, but, but what did he do in college?
[Speaker 3]
He was a strong safety missile, missile pa- practice squad guy and used his head.
[Speaker 3]
Nobody knows that. And he was diagnosed with, like, stage 3 CTE. And the last 10 years of his life, he was... Kerry was a sweet, wonderful, caring, quiet, passive individual, and he started doing things that he should have been... His son kicked him out of the house. He should have been kicked out of the house, the things he was doing. But if he had realized he was dealing with,
[Speaker 3]
if it was CTE, whatever, he was dealing with repeated head impacts,
[Speaker 3]
there, there's a chance. When, when I went... 47 years old, I, I told you my brain chemistry went crazy. I started having that unbridled rage. I used to yell at my daughter, my 13-year-old daughter, at the top of my lungs, and, "You're gonna listen to me," with jugular veins popping out. "You're gonna listen to me that I'm..."
[Speaker 3]
Acting a fool. And if I hadn't figured out 6 months later in Boston University what CTE is or what repeated head impacts, what they can cause,
[Speaker 3]
I wouldn't have said, "Oh-
[Speaker 3]
If,
[Speaker 3]
if I...
[Speaker 3]
If, if I'm not... If it's not organic to the point where I can't make a cognitive decision to walk out the front door, I'm screwed. Can I do that?
[Speaker 3]
Can I do it? 3 times it took me. I felt myself going 0 to 60 red line, and it, it only takes a 2nd, and I felt it coming, and I walked out the front door. 3 times. The third time, my daughter said, "Yo, you're just, you're just ignoring me, and you're not facing it," and then, uh, and then you know what?
[Speaker 3]
As I'm walking out the door, I'm like, "You don't wanna... You don't want me in here right now.
[Speaker 3]
I gotta go out and take a breath." You know what? Those rages went from once a week to once a month to once a quarter to once every 6 months. Now I only get it once in a while, uh, m- maybe once a year when somebody is road- r- is really, really ticking me off and I'm having a bad day on the road.
[Speaker 3]
So, there's hope. There's hope, there's hope, there's hope. Um, you got the, the brethren of the NFL, you don't have to succumb to it. You can live with it successfully for years. But you gotta eat right, you gotta live right. You, you, you don't... You, you can't drink. You can't smoke, smoke dope consistently, because that will screw you up even worse. That'll make your brain...
[Speaker 3]
There's plenty of research on that. But
[Speaker 3]
you, you, you can't self-medicate. You have to take... You... The discipline that we had to make it in the NFL, I was o- I was o- for, for, for 11 years, I was one of 240 guys in the world that played defensive line.
[Speaker 3]
If I was disciplined enough to do that, I have to find out... You have to, for your family's sake and the people, the, your loved ones around you, you have to find a way to eat right, sleep, find out i- if your magnesium... Your, your, your, your magnesium is so important to your sleep, and sugar takes your magnesium away. So, sugar, if you're eating those Reese's Peanut Butter Cups like I love, you're, you're, you're, you're depleting good chemicals in your body that actually help you sleep well. And if you don't sleep well, you're screwed. Just ask, ask Reggie White.
[Speaker 3]
So,
[Speaker 3]
you gotta, you gotta take care of yourself. You have to be as disciplined as you- we were getting into the league.
[Speaker 3]
You gotta be disciplined if you wanna live a n- a... if you wanna live a productive life and be, be a, a,
[Speaker 3]
a, a, a, a shining star to your family and, and, and, and be a productive person in society. You have to.
[Speaker 3]
If you don't,
[Speaker 3]
y- you know, it just... Oh, sorry. Got on my, got on my soapbox.
[Speaker 2]
It's all good, Paul. All good. Again, we, we appreciate your time tonight. Again, the Head Rush podcast, um, headrush.com, um, or headrushpodcast.com, I believe is your, is your website.
[Speaker 3]
Yes. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Um, and, uh, and go check it out and reach out to Paul with any questions or, or just continue the conversation. So, Paul, thanks again. You have a great evening, and hopefully we'll, we'll talk soon.
[Speaker 3]
Thank you, guys.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
And, and my, my father was a preacher, so I guess I probably preached at you for about 5 minutes there. Sorry.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's all good, man. It's all good, Paul. It's all good, really, truly.
[Speaker 3]
All right.
[Speaker 2]
I appreciate you.
[Speaker 3]
You, you can edit it. All right, guys. Appreciate everything.
[Speaker 2]
You got it.
[Speaker 3]
Bye-bye.
[Speaker 2]
Goodbye.
[Speaker 2]
There you go. At least now you're muted. So, as, as, as, uh, as Vince, uh, looks to take care of the mic, um, but really just an, an unbelievable session with Paul. Really appreciate his time tonight. Uh, lot of things being thrown out there for parents to, to, to, to noodle on, right? And, and, and really what it comes down to is your kids are your life. Take care of your kids. Don't be afraid of a coach. Look for signs. If you see something that's going on in your child's life or your spouse's life, go get checked out, especially if you're an athlete. Um, there's nothing wrong with that, right? You, you wanna figure it out before it's too late, right? And so, um, just a great job by Paul. Really appreciate his time tonight. Again, the headrush, uh, podcast.com. You can also get, uh, find Paul on, um, Facebook at, um, the, the Head Rush podcast, um, and check him out. Like he said, go look him up. Friend him on Facebook, send him a note if you want more information. Um, so
[Speaker 2]
just...
[Speaker 1]
That wa- that was good. That was good. Uh, perfect time. Um, great show. Great guests. Obviously, uh, having his own podcast, he, he is, uh, not afraid of the microphone, right? Um, and, but, you know, facts and facts matter, right? So this wasn't just an opinion. He was able to, uh, bring, bring some good information to us. Um,
[Speaker 1]
yeah, it was interesting, you know, the, the reaction and, you know, I think you have to respect, especially as a former player, probably not wanting to go in too much detail about some of the current or, or former players, right? Respecting privacy and respecting the brotherhood and everything else like that. We're, we're afforded that opportunity, right? So we can make some of those statements. I can tell you, and, you know, we've said it time and time again, Tua, you need to stop, right? You just need to stop.
[Speaker 1]
He talked about it, if you think about it, without mentioning the name. He talked about the repeated concussions, and we talked about it, right? You had it-
[Speaker 1]
They can say what they wanna say about it back. You had the concussion, you turn around and you had another one. And he talks about the dangers of the second one.
[Speaker 1]
Where's Roger? He said it. Where's Roger calling down to say, "Get him out of the game"?
[Speaker 2]
Well, and that's why-
[Speaker 1]
The-
[Speaker 2]
... uh, we've talked about it, right? It's almost like depending on the game and the importance, sometimes they buzz down and get a player off the field, and sometimes they don't. And you're like, "How come that person didn't get buzzed to get off the field?" I, I mean, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that that guy got his bell rung p- pretty darn good.
[Speaker 1]
You know, a- and that was something... There was so much... It was so fast-paced. There was so much that, that, you know, I wanted to ask or comment about. Um, a few years back, a few years back, they were hitting that button like, like it was going out of style. "Get this guy out. Get..." You know, whistle being blown. You know, referee saying, "Oh, you got a call. You gotta go to the sideline." It still happens,
[Speaker 1]
but not at the same rate that it was happening before.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I, I think-
[Speaker 1]
The-
[Speaker 2]
... it's about the quality of the game, right? If, if you're taking out a top player that could be out for a series or 2 as they're going through it,
[Speaker 2]
um, it, maybe it hurts the game, you know, about that, about that money, right? It kind of always .
[Speaker 1]
And, and it goes, goes back to that. That's right. That's right. Well, uh, that, that was awesome. That was awesome. Stevie D, we still got some work to do here. Um, we're, we're gonna try to get this in. Um, you know, we have a few people that are hanging around, and we appreciate you. Uh, if you stayed for the whole show, um, obviously you can, uh, catch replay or catch any segment of, uh, tonight's podcast. You can go to our YouTube channel, uh, OW Sports Network, or you can go to our website, owsportsnetwork.com. Uh, and then you can go onto our podcast page that has all of our, uh, previous podcast episodes. Be able to watch it and, you know, leave some comments. Um, and then I do think, uh, what we're gonna do is create a library on, on the, on the homepage, right? We're bringing on people who have written books. Stevie D, you and I have got to write our books. They may not be football related, but we gotta write our books. Um, but we'll have a library section, right? So that you can click on that link and it... whether it takes you to Amazon or to Barnes & Nobles or whoever, right? We wanna be equal and fair. Um, not everything's for you, Jeff Bezos. Um, but
[Speaker 1]
ha- have a section where if folks wanna buy the books, right? They, they can go buy Derek's, they can go buy, uh, Paul's, and, uh, hopefully others that we bring on the show, 'cause this is season 9, baby. So you never know what you're getting season 9. Uh, but, you know, we'll, we'll make it available to them. Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
I just want people to know that
[Speaker 1]
we did not have our annual Hall of Fame discussion. Usually it's a two-show discussion.
[Speaker 1]
Um, we opted not to because sometimes it hurts us here and here having to say the same thing over and over and over again.
[Speaker 1]
Right? It, it just... I mean, it's like a broken record. And we talk about, you know, the voting committees, and we talk about the players that are good,
[Speaker 1]
but not Hall of Fame. And so we had a look at this year's, right? And so before, Stevie D, before anything got going, there was already controversy.
[Speaker 1]
And that's Mr. Bill Belichick not going in as a 1st ballot, right? So then we, we didn't even make it this far. We didn't even get to Canton if Belichick doesn't go.
[Speaker 1]
I think that was the most asinine thing for a, a voter to say, "Well, you know, he'll, he'll be able to go next year." It's... your job is to vote for this year, not to hold your vote for next year. And I started thinking about something.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
uh, what's... I, I just drew a mind blank. Uh, the, um, Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Speaker 1]
Negro Leagues, uh- ... out of Kan- Uh, no. Out of, out of Kansa- out of Kansas City.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Uh, um, Book, uh, B- O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
Buck O'Neal. Thank you.
[Speaker 2]
Buck O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
Buck O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
They were going to
[Speaker 1]
have Buck O'Neal go into the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame.
[Speaker 1]
They waited, I don't know how long and why they waited so long,
[Speaker 1]
and then he passes. His opportunity to go into the Hall of Fame was gone because he passed, because people made dumb decisions, selfish decisions along the way.
[Speaker 1]
Now, I'm not hoping or wishing or trying to push anything on Belichick. Belichick was a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I don't like him 'cause he was for the enemy, right? Even when he was in the NFC, you were my enemy. A- and then, of course, you go to that place up north. But still, I have to respect what you did. I have to call it what it is. You are a Hall of Fame head coach. You are.
[Speaker 1]
And for somebody to take their vote and say, "Well, I'll wait till next year," what if between the time of that vote and the time of the next vote, something happens? And now you have cost him the opportunity to be able to enjoy it, to be able to share it, and to go through all of that because you wanna vote for somebody who, for 15 years, wasn't deserving to go in in the 1st place, and you're gonna throw a vote away.
[Speaker 1]
This is why the Hall of Fame really irritates me.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. You know, I- I'm not gonna add anything to that, 'cause y- your and my thoughts are, are, are right lock, stock, and barrel. It, it is, it is unbe- it, it is unbelievable. You know, I, d- look, you made a great point, 'cause life happens and you never know, and you rob people of that opportunity that have earned that right to walk across that stage.
[Speaker 2]
It's... And that's what's so weird about voting, right? Because you have, "Well, if I don't vote here, we know X amount of people are gonna vote, so I wanna try and get this person up." But, uh, at the end of the day, I think you hurt your credibility as a voter, because no matter what you're thinking,
[Speaker 2]
your vote says that person wasn't a Hall of Famer.
[Speaker 2]
And, and, and so when we talk about, "Well, you can only have a max of 5 people that go in the Hall of Fame," or in Major League Baseball, I think the most you could really have is 3, the way they do their percentage, right?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
Sh- d- you've said it so many times.
[Speaker 2]
If you're a Hall of Famer, you're a Hall of Famer, right? And it shouldn't matter that we can only allow 5 people to go in. If that year 8 studs are Hall of Fame worthy, they all should go in. So what? The ceremony's a little bit longer than, than it needs to be? Right? But you're, you're robbing or making people wait when they've earned it, all because of silly rules. Silly rules. That, that's, uh, to me, that, that's how I feel. And, uh, you know, and Deion Sanders said, you know, "And sometimes people get in the Hall of Fame and it's not deserving." Right? And he says, "Well, maybe in the Hall of Fame you should have, you know, the platinum," right? A- a- and stuff. So, you know, he made some really good points about the Hall of Fame. And, like, I don't begrudge people
[Speaker 2]
who've made the Hall of Fame. I just... And you and I, I think we're, we're pretty close in this thinking. Like, we know there's probably about 3 to 6% of the people maybe that probably shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, right? But I also think there's a little bit larger list of people that should be in the Hall of Fame that are not there,
[Speaker 2]
right? For whatever reason, right? They, they weren't well-liked in the media, right? Look, we all know it's payback 'cause Bill didn't, didn't love the, the media-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 2]
... and didn't give him anything, and it's payback. Maybe it's payback for some of the, the s- coaching scandals that he was a part of. Maybe that, that was part of that. But it is a sin that Bill is not in the Hall of Fame.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
He thinks of things in the game, when you listen to him speak, and former players that have played for him, that never would have thought of looking at that from that angle,
[Speaker 2]
and turned out to be, uh, the reason why they won a football game. Because the things that he taught, "Hey, we have to look for this little piece in the game, and when they do it, we're gonna be prepared." He always had his team prepared to play. And whether you love him or hate him, there was very rarely did a team that he coached got blown out.
[Speaker 1]
He knew the rule book better than the people that wrote the rule book.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, just a quick Jets story, right? We're playing him, and he's laughing on the sideline because he knows a loophole to run the clock down where he's, he'll take the five-yard penalty, but he took 40 seconds off the clock 'cause he didn't have to worry that, uh, this strange law rule that allowed you a 2nd opportunity to run the 40 seconds off on a punt play for a delay of game penalty. I mean, the guy just is a machine in every aspect, and, and it, you know, went against us. But watching him laugh, to try to hold the laugh because the Jets didn't know the rule, and he was able to get extra 40 seconds off the clock, the guy really is a genius in this sport, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. It doesn't make any sense.
[Speaker 1]
So let, let's look at who went in. Um, we talk about the smell test. This is what we talk about. We'll start with Drew Brees.
[Speaker 1]
I'm okay.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
I, I don't think there's any debate there. Uh, Larry Fitzgerald.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, no debate.
[Speaker 1]
I'm, I'm good. Okay.
[Speaker 1]
Adam Vinatieri.
[Speaker 2]
Don't have a problem with Adam Vinatieri. The, the game-winning-
[Speaker 1]
Same here
[Speaker 2]
... kicks that he had in bad weather, in the Super Bowl, unmatched by any kicker in history with those big time kicks.
[Speaker 1]
Okay. Roger Craig.
[Speaker 2]
I have a problem with Roger Craig. Uh, I do. Um, I'm sorry to hear about his medical condition. Didn't know he was fighting dementia. Uh, he came out, you know, the past weekend and kinda told everybody about it. Uh, feel sorry for him. But I never looked at Roger Craig as that
[Speaker 2]
Hall of Fame type running back. He did something special in his career where he had the 1,000 receiving, 1,000 yards rushing, 1st back to do that in a season. That's special. But overall, I looked at his career, I, I didn't see it, me personally.
[Speaker 1]
I don't disagree with you. Um, a- again, now is where we get...
[Speaker 1]
Now is where we get to the point in the show where we talk about the, um,
[Speaker 1]
Hall of Very Good and the Hall of Fame, right? The platinum, right? And we, we've offered the Hall of Fame an idea to create another wing, a smaller wing, that is rotational, right? Because, uh, the excellence that someone may have throughout their career, we... you can only hope that the generation that comes after or the generation after that, that there's gonna be somebody that's going to eclipse that. And when that happens, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you di- you, you didn't have a great career. Only means that, you know,
[Speaker 1]
for to be in this wing, it's the best of the best, right? And so then you, your time is at its run. Um, when I look at Roger Craig- I think of Roger Craig and I think of Tom Rathman. I think of Montana. I think of the 49ers. That, that's what I think of, right? Um, I don't think of Hall of Fame, though.
[Speaker 1]
I don't think... Yeah, he, he was a dual threat. Excellent. Great, right? And y- you did some really good things.
[Speaker 1]
But to say that you are the best of the best, the cream of the crop for that gold jacket, I don't see it. And, a- and I'm not trying to shame him at all. I, I just don't see it. Um,
[Speaker 1]
so then we go to the next one of the smell test,
[Speaker 1]
and I have a bigger issue here, and that's Luke Kuechly.
[Speaker 1]
I'm gonna tell you right now, and I'll go 1st, Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Please.
[Speaker 1]
Luke Kuechly is not a Hall of Famer.
[Speaker 1]
There are other linebackers that have meant more from a Hall of Fame perspective, in my opinion.
[Speaker 1]
And so, as I started to try to build my argument for Luke Kuechly not being in the Hall of Fame,
[Speaker 1]
I used Pro Football Reference, right? And in Pro Football Reference, they have the
[Speaker 1]
Hall of Fame monitor. If anybody's ever been there, you know what I'm talking about. And it basically compares you and says where, um, you stand compared to other players at that position, and they have a criteria. They, they use the number of, uh, Pro Bowls, uh, how many AP, um,
[Speaker 1]
uh, 1st team, 2nd team, et cetera. Uh, they also use, um, Rookie of the Year. They use Super Bowl, and then they use your stats.
[Speaker 1]
And then I started this, you know, and I look and I see Luke Kuechly. I think he's 4th or 5th on the list, right?
[Speaker 1]
And then, Stevie D, I started to pause for a minute. I said, "Wait a minute.
[Speaker 1]
This is what we did when we were doing our stats for our top 10." Right? We started to rank these guys and we said, you know, "How many of these awards have you had?" But let me explain to everybody. Stevie D and I have been open and transparent about how we came up with our top 10 list and the arguments that we had. Friendly arguments, but the arguments that we had. Because there were some cases where we didn't feel that it was justified to use certain criteria because it was a team criteria. So just because you're on a team that has made it to the Super Bowl or has won the Super Bowl,
[Speaker 1]
why am I giving you extra points over another guy who's got Dave Craig as his quarterback?
[Speaker 1]
Right? There, there's a problem there. This guy is struggling, but he is dominating at his position, but he loses the bonus points that helps put you up on the list.
[Speaker 1]
You also have a... You have to look at the popularity of the selections, right? What's the household name? What's the name that the league is trying to pump up? And we all know that they, they try to find certain players that they want to kind of put on a mantle and they wanna showcase. I'm not saying Kuechly was that, but he was on a relatively new franchise,
[Speaker 1]
right? And so you wanna kind of show them off and you wanna talk, "Hey, here's this great guy that's coming in," compared to a guy that's been on a team that's been around since dirt was created, right? Not that he played back when there was dirt, but the team has. And the team has been mired in just... I'm not even gonna say mediocrity. I mean, they've just been bad for the longest time. And he can't be the savior, but he's just a face there. So this guy is always gonna get his flowers. So now you start adding in the Pro Bowls. You look at the stats, and they're very comparable. But when you look at the Hall of Fame monitor value,
[Speaker 1]
the disparity in there, Stevie D, is m- just huge. Huge. And so the person I'm talking about, obviously, is Chris Spielman, right? Chris Spielman just was coming out of Ohio State, just a linebacker of linebackers, right? He was your middle linebacker.
[Speaker 1]
And when you saw Singletary and you said, "Well, you're passing the torch," it went to Spielman 'cause that's who you wanted, especially in a 4-3. That's who you wanted. But when you look at the stats, Spielman really has better stats than Kuechly.
[Speaker 1]
But those stats only get a value of one, where these other ones, whether they be a popularity contest or a team contest, all of a sudden have a value of 2. This guy is forever gonna be up here. But I'm stuck in Detroit. No offense to our Det- our Detroit Lions fans out there, but I'm stuck in Detroit with Wayne Fontes? And the best thing that you gave me was Jerry Ball, but that was at the end?
[Speaker 1]
Something's wrong, man. Something's wrong. And it's not right for these guys who should be in the hall of very good to be able to get a gold jacket. Now, to the Luke Kuechly family, congratulations, right? I know it's a big honor and, and congr- you know, you, you got, you got in, right? Can't take it away. Just like Terrell Davis, can't take it away.
[Speaker 1]
But something's wrong here, Stevie D. Something is wrong.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, man. I, I think you said it- I, I'm with ya. Uh, we- we've talked about this a, a lot, um, la- last week, uh, more prior to the podcast, 'cause they just went into the Hall of Fame. So I would say my memories, I'm getting older. I can't remember what day we talked about it. Maybe it was Monday or something. I don't remember. But it, it, it's, uh... I, I put Luke Kuechly with Zach T- um, Zach Thomas of the Dolphins.
[Speaker 2]
Hall of very good. Um, again, he was a fast linebacker. Luke made plays. Not, not taking anything away his successful career, but when you're going over that threshold to the Hall of Fame,
[Speaker 2]
what is your differentiator? And I, I don't, I don't see him as that d- differentiator at the position. I, I just, I, I, I, I didn't, I didn't see it. So-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... again, we are tougher than most with the Hall of Fame grading. We are. Just like in the top 10, we- we're hard on it.
[Speaker 2]
It, it just, I didn't see him making that type of difference or, or, or, or making that huge impact on the game, um, at that position. So...
[Speaker 1]
And you, you know, I... Ev- every team, every organization has somebody like this, right? I can speak to my Bills, and I know you can speak to your Jets, right?
[Speaker 1]
I will give you a name like a Daryl Talley,
[Speaker 1]
right? And I use this as an example in a conversation I had.
[Speaker 1]
Daryl Talley
[Speaker 1]
was screwed from the day he started.
[Speaker 1]
The reason why I say that, he didn't come in highly heralded.
[Speaker 1]
He didn't come in with, with the headlines flashing, "West Virginia linebacker Daryl Talley coming to Buffalo." But what did he do? He rolled up his sleeves, or actually in his case, pulled down it, pulled down the, the, the sleeves, put the helmet on, and went to work. And went to work where he was fundamentally sound, went to work where you could rely on him down after down after down. You didn't think he was taking a play off.
[Speaker 1]
But unfortunately, by not coming in with all of those accolades,
[Speaker 1]
every single year we're scratching our head, "How did you not make the Pro Bowl? You're one of the best linebackers out there." Y- you wanna look at tackles, you wanna look at tackles for losses, you wanna look at sacks, you wanna look at interceptions, right, from a linebacker pos- you got screwed.
[Speaker 1]
And then when your career ends
[Speaker 1]
and you're using this barometer-
[Speaker 2]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... and, and this group to say, you know, "This is what's gonna help put you into that other class," it's not right. A- and it's not right. And just something has to be done if you want us to appreciate all that is in there.
[Speaker 1]
It's special to be in the Hall of Fame. It's sp- it just sounds special. It's special. But if you... And I, I wanna be careful, 'cause I don't want to
[Speaker 1]
make it seem like I'm speaking ill of those that have made it, but some of those, y- not... Your career wasn't deserving of being in the special one. That's why I want, that's why I want another league. So I'll leave it at that.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
All right. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I guess we have our last words.
[Speaker 1]
I guess we have our last words. So, um, uh, Stevie D, take it away.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, you know, this week, uh, Quinton Williams, the former Jet defensive tackle, uh, he got paid from the Dallas Cowboys, right? Uh, and I love Q. I'm, I'm happy for him and his family on a three-year, 105.9 million dollar contract extension. But at hi- at his age and that dollar value, I just look at it and I say, "Man, what are we doing, Dallas?" Right? Like, you traded Micah
[Speaker 2]
to the Packers
[Speaker 2]
when you could've kept a generational player for a little bit more than what you're now paying Quinton Williams, right? Now, it's unfortunate what happened to Micah and he got injured, so maybe Dallas is looking at it like, "Well, we're, we're ahead." But at the time, you got rid of Micah, um, and, and you revamped that D line and you brought in Kenny Clark on that trade with Micah, and now you have Quinton Williams. I just look at it and say, "Man, that's a lot of money for an older defensive tackle that when you look at him on paper, he doesn't blow away, doesn't blow away the sack totals."
[Speaker 2]
Right? I mean, he's a sure tackler. He's a gamer.
[Speaker 2]
But he doesn't have those statistics year in and year out that, to me, looks at it, "I am a 32 million dollar a year player." Uh, or more than that, actually. It's, what, 35 million dollars a year or something like that? Um, so, a- again, happy for Q. I just look at it and say, "What are you doing, Dallas, again with all that money?" He was already under contract. I can't say that he's earned a 8 million dollar a year raise based off of the statistics he's had the last couple years. So it's just really shocking. And you wonder why Dallas has salary cap problems. Just very bizarre. Jerry's operating in his own world, right? You, you don't pay Dak. You don't pay CD Lamb when you should. You wait. It costs your salary cap, what, 19 million dollars because you waited to sign those 2 guys when everybody else got paid? Not a genius move. And now you're offering up a new contract when there's really no need to.
[Speaker 2]
Uh, it's very bizarre in Dallas. So happy for Quinton, confused by the Cowboys, um, and so that's my, my, my final word this week.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
my final words is, goes to Orchard Park, New York. Um, so we just had the red and blue practice. Um, whole nother topic about that. Uh, but what, what happened was that season ticket holders- ... had the opportunity to go into the new Highmark Stadium, state-of-the-art. Everything that you could imagine, uh, fresh, clean, all the anticipation. And as they go in there,
[Speaker 1]
uh, fans are marveling at everything that they could see, how the field... And are you marveling 'cause it's brand new, or are you marveling because it truly is something nice? Well, when you've been in a stadium since 1970,
[Speaker 1]
I think it was '73, '74, uh, and now it is 2028, or 2026, I'm sorry, and you've looked around and you've seen all these other franchise get a stadium, and you're like, "When's it our turn?"
[Speaker 1]
And then you've drank the Kool-Aid for the 17 years, and then you go to the stadium and you sit down. Are you really enjoying what you're seeing? Well, Stevie D, you're not really enjoying what you're seeing for some folks.
[Speaker 1]
But,
[Speaker 1]
big but, so the videos and the pictures have come out of the obstructive view seating, uh, throughout the stadium. There are areas, and there's no denying it. If I'm sitting in some of these seats, I have a railing, I have a glass bar or a glass pane, sometimes a double glass pane, sitting in front of me. I have part of a staircase submit wall that is blocking my view of a corner of an end zone.
[Speaker 1]
But before everybody starts to lose their mind,
[Speaker 1]
and yes, we do drink the Kool-Aid, Terry Pegula, and you know this. That's why you charge the outrageous prices for the concession stands , right? But before everybody loses their mind,
[Speaker 1]
let's just take a deep breath. Okay? And the reason why I say take a deep breath is because I do not believe,
[Speaker 1]
and as much as we, we come down on the owners of the NFL franchises, I do not believe that a organization would purposely
[Speaker 1]
design something
[Speaker 1]
and mislead people all the way through.
[Speaker 1]
Not to mention, fans had the opportunity to go and tour when, when they were going to get their season tickets. So if somebody that was getting a season ticket was sitting in an obstructive view,
[Speaker 1]
Stevie D, they would've known this months ago.
[Speaker 1]
And on top of that,
[Speaker 1]
if I am a good businessman, now I know I'm gonna try to squeeze every penny,
[Speaker 1]
I am not gonna charge you the same value that I would charge somebody sitting that did not have an obstructive view.
[Speaker 1]
Which means you knew that the view was obstructed. If that's your seat, you knew the view was obstructed, more than likely you got it at a reduced rate. It's just what it is what it is. That's business.
[Speaker 1]
And if you didn't know, then you would have a, some level of an out clause, whether it be for your PSL, whether it be for your season ticket, what have you. So they, a- and more than likely, they're not gonna give that back, so they'll work with you on the se- on the price of the overall season ticket. So all this noise that we hear that is coming from YouTubers and Instagram posters and media that's throughout, that's all hate.
[Speaker 1]
It is all hate.
[Speaker 1]
And I want Bills fans and Bills media not to be
[Speaker 1]
so emotional
[Speaker 1]
and so scared that somebody is talking bad about you.
[Speaker 1]
And let, let's let the dust settle. Let's get through this 1st season, please. Right? After we get through the 1st season, if there is some validity to it, if Terry Pegula and the rest of the Bills organization tried to charge an obstructive view seat the same price that there was a seat next to it that did not have that same obstruction, then yes, then, then we need to hold them accountable.
[Speaker 1]
But until we have the facts, let's appreciate what is now standing as Highmark Stadium for the Buffalo Bills. And hopefully,
[Speaker 1]
just maybe,
[Speaker 1]
this new stadium is part of what will help transform this franchise
[Speaker 1]
into the Super Bowl. Maybe. Let's hope so. Those are my final words on that, Stevie D.
[Speaker 1]
All right. Uh, awesome show. Um, can't say enough, Stevie D, to be able to hook this one up, get Paul on. Um, just all the things. And there's so much that I wanted to ask you, Steve . Uh, things that he, he would bring up, I'm like, "Oh, well, what about," right? "And what about..." Because it, there's just so much that goes into it, things that we talk about.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Um, and, and then he would start to, um, you know, make either overtones of that or speak directly to it, right? And you just wanna just jump in, but he was saying so much good stuff, you didn't wanna stop him either, right? Just let it keep rolling. And, and it was really good. So, uh, definitely, uh, go check out his book. We're gonna put the link on the, uh, on our, on our website, owsportsnetwork.com, so that you could see it there and go ahead and, uh, make that purchase. And, you know, we'll have Derek's book, we'll have Paul's book, we're gonna have Stevie D's book. You know, all 3 of those books are gonna be sitting there side by side. So you make sure you check those out. I'm not sure the link of Stevie D's, where that one's gonna go to you just yet, but, uh, pre-order. You can pre-order it now, right? So
[Speaker 1]
so we'll, we'll get that one ready to go.
[Speaker 2]
It'll ship June 31.
[Speaker 1]
Shipping TBD. Yep, yep.
[Speaker 1]
All right, but that's gonna wrap this one up. Uh, it was a long one. Uh, we appreciate everybody who, who hung in there. Um, it definitely was a long one. I'm a little tired now, but that's all right. That's all right. It was well worth it. Uh, we look forward to some future shows. We have some really good guests that are coming up, uh, in the future. Also, there's a, uh, a couple of more people have, have signed up or registered for the Fantasy Football League. Need to get this out. If you haven't signed up, make sure you go to owsportsnetwork.com. There is a image for Fantasy Football. You make sure you click on that. Read the little description and then go ahead and sign up. Make sure you get in, because when all 12 spots are full, that's it. That's it. And then we're gonna have a live draft, so we're gonna have... Part of the show is gonna be the live draft. We will have some prizes at the end, or maybe I should say prize at the end. So, you know, Stevie D's the one that's making all this money, you know, endorsement deals and the whole 9. So he's got NIL money coming in, name, image and likeness, uh, and that's coming his way. So, you know, maybe he'll make it rain for you. But, uh, aside from that, no, uh, we will have a prize for the winner of the Fantasy Football League. So make sure you get yourself registered. Uh, can't wait for the draft. At least if I fall in last place, I got somebody to blame this time. So I- I'm, I'm all excited about that. So there are a lot of good things happening in, in, uh, 2026. So for my co... Oh, go ahead, Stevie D. Or-
[Speaker 2]
I was just gonna say good luck, everybody, this weekend. May e- all your teams get out, all your players get out healthy. Enjoy the weekend's games as, as we're... The full slate is back in action, so enjoy.
[Speaker 1]
That, that's right. It, it's officially official, as one of, uh, our Twitter posters likes to put out. It's officially official. All right, so for my co-host, Stevie D, I'm Vince. We'll talk to you soon.
[Speaker 0]
This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute the practice of medicine. The use of this information and the materials linked to this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Users should not disregard and delay in obtaining medical advice from any medical condition they have, and they should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
This is the "Head Rush Podcast" with Paul Frase and Corey Barry.
[Speaker 1]
It's time. It's Official Word Sports. I'm Vince. I'm here with Stevie D. It's Stevie D. Uh, we got a good one for him tonight. Um, we have Paul Frase joining us, and it... this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited. Something that you and I have both talked about, um, basically the entire time that we've had the podcast. Uh, you know, we've talked about head injuries. We've talked about concussions. I've given some of my stories of probably things I shouldn't have done, uh, as a youth with a helmet, right? Thinking I was a, thinking I was a madman, a gladiator, um, and then realizing years later. But I definitely wanna, you know, get his take and, um, have him provide some in- some input, his insight, and help educate, right? We have a fan base here that certainly needs to be educated, and where other than to go to the source, right?
[Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
All right. So, uh, get ready, everybody. The show is about to start, and welcome to "OW Sports Network."
[Speaker 1]
And welcome back to another edition of Official Word Sports. I'm Vince. I'm here with my co-host, Stevie D, and we are very pleased and honored to be able to welcome Paul Frase, former New York Jet, uh, who else? Jacksonville Jaguar, Green Bay Packer, Baltimore Raven. So, uh, definitely a veteran in the NFL. Uh, unfortunately,
[Speaker 1]
uh, Derek Burrows was not able to join us, our, our collaborator. That would've been nice to have those 2 guys go at it. Uh-
[Speaker 2]
Well, there's the Jets all over again.
[Speaker 1]
I- indeed, indeed. Uh, but Stevie D, this, this is all you, my man.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yes.
[Speaker 1]
You, you lined this up, and you got us a great guest. And not that I'm gonna just sit back on the couch and, and just relax, 'cause Paul, I got, I got some questions for you. And if you could tell me probably a bad move of... So before I turn it over to Stevie D, I'll just tell you,
[Speaker 1]
I, I did not realize what a concussion was a- as a youth, right? And we're, we're going back. You can see the gray hair, so we're going back. But, uh, every time, every year that they would hand out the helmets and, and make sure it fits nice and snug and you're good, you know, make sure you go side to side. And then I would find myself going up against the brick wall, and I'd start banging my head against the wall.
[Speaker 1]
And then I'd get the little tears coming down the sides of my, my eyes, right? Or maybe the nose got a little, little, little moisture in there. And it wasn't till a few years ago, uh, as they were talking about concussions, that I realized, "Wait a minute. I think I gave myself a small minor concussion." I was like, "Ooh." And I used to do that all the time. So Stevie D, watch out. You know, I, I, I may venture... It explains a lot.
[Speaker 2]
Well, if I, if I see it again, I know what to look for now.
[Speaker 3]
We'll give you symptoms to look for, absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So let's, let's get the introduction. So Mr. Frase, um, was born in New York, Western New York, or closer to Western New York. We'll give that to, to, to Mr. Vince. Um, and, uh, uh, went to Syracuse University. Um, got drafted by the New York Jets in 1988, uh, in the 6th round. Um, in a notable draft with the Jets was, uh, Eric McMillan, Dave, uh, Cagnan, Jeff Criswell, James Booty, and James Haste- uh, John Booty and James Hastey. So it was a really big memorable draft, uh, for 1988 for the Jets. Uh, Paul went on to play, uh, as, as, um, Vince mentioned, 11 years in the NFL. Um, uh, 7 years with the New York Jets, 2 years with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Unfortunately, that's how we lost Paul, uh, 'cause we left him unprotected in the expansion draft with the Jaguars. Uh, him and Jeff Lagerman both were picked up, um, really good pickups by the Jaguars, uh, were picked up in '95. And then in '97, went on to play for the Green Bay Packers, went all the way to the Super Bowl with them, and finished his career with the R-hated Baltimore Ravens. But fan of the show, Craig Willis, who's a big Ravens fan. Happy birthday to you, Craig Willis. Today's his birthday, so I do want to acknowledge his birthday. He's been a longtime listener, commenter on the show. So it, it kinda ties back in, right, Vince? We start with the Jets and end with the Ravens, uh, for Craig on his birthday. I mean, can it get any better than that?
[Speaker 1]
Well, technically, you started with the Bills 'cause you were in Western New York.
[Speaker 3]
Ooh.
[Speaker 1]
Then you went to the Jets. Just, you know, wanna make sure we get that straight. Hey, hey-
[Speaker 2]
I normally don't sit in this seat too.
[Speaker 1]
... oh, real quick-
[Speaker 2]
Hold on, Vince. You know, I normally don't sit in this seat and do the introduction, so I feel I did a good job of tying everybody together here.
[Speaker 1]
You, you did. You did. I... Double thumbs up on that one. Um, when Syracuse, was that Pasqualoni?
[Speaker 3]
No. Pasqualoni came in my f- my 5th year at Syracuse as a linebacker coach. But interestingly, Dave Bavaro was a, uh, he was one year b- before me, Mark Bavaro's younger brother. He played linebacker. And, uh, you may remember, you probably don't, we went 11 and 0 my senior year in '87, '88. We played in the '88 Sugar Bowl. And, uh, Dave Bavaro played linebacker, and he said if we had not had Paul Pasqualoni as a linebacker coach, we wouldn't have won any games. So-
[Speaker 1]
Okay
[Speaker 3]
... it was really serendipitous that he came. And of course, Mack, uh, uh, graduated, uh, back into the NFL to the Patriots, Coach Dick McPherson to the Patriots for a couple of years, and then Paul Pasqualoni, uh, took over, uh, at Syracuse for 12, I don't know, 13 years. And he, he... So in my senior year, that 11-0 and 0 season, we brought Syracuse back to prominence. Ti- we were number 4 in the nation, and then they went to 10 or 11 major bowls, uh, over the next, uh, uh, 12 seasons type of thing. And then we've taken a nosedive since, but anyway.
[Speaker 1]
Was it, was that Don McPherson?
[Speaker 3]
Yep. Don McPherson was from, uh, West Hempstead, right? Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
[Speaker 3]
D- dear friend. We were ca- we were tri, uh, part of a tri-captain group, uh, my- myself, Don McPherson, and, uh, uh, Ted, Ted Gregory, and, uh, just, uh, dear friends to this day and, uh, good, uh, good memories.
[Speaker 1]
So, uh, and Stevie D, I'll, I'll give it to you just re- real quick. In Buffalo, at the time, the UB Bulls,
[Speaker 1]
we hadn't yet... I think we were just trying to get to D1 at that time, because actually, '87-
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... UB had hired Nelson Townsend to become their AD. And so one of his big initiatives was that move to D1.
[Speaker 1]
But at the time, if you're in Western New York, the closest thing that you had was Syracuse. So everybody was a Syracuse fan. So yeah, I, I remember those days.
[Speaker 3]
And you guys brought in, um... He was a running back coach for us. Uh, Daryl Johnston, The Moose, played under him as a running back coach. And I can't remember his name, but he, he ended up, uh, uh, bringing you guys, uh, uh, uh, a number of wins, um, ear- early on. And he was, uh, he was there for a number of years, and I can't, uh...
[Speaker 1]
You thinking Turner Gill?
[Speaker 3]
Nope, nope. Uh, Turn- Turner Gill from, uh, from Nebraska?
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, he coached UB and actually had, had them doing pretty good.
[Speaker 3]
Good. Well-
[Speaker 1]
But-
[Speaker 3]
... Turner Gill was on the sidelines when I was at Syracuse in, in the 2nd half in his street clothes and his sunglasses because they, they were ahead like 63... No, it was, uh, I don't know, 49 to nothing in the, in the, at halftime. It was Turner Gill and Mike Rozier? No.
[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah, they were both in-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 3]
... street clothes in the second half.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
But, but, but we beat them, we beat them the next year in, in, in the dome. They came and, and we beat them. We, we knocked out Ton Rathman on the 1st, uh, kickoff. Dicker- Derek Ward, number 58, he was, he was a tank, and he was hell-bent on c- creating, uh, a wedge buster. So tha- that's back in the day when they had the wedge buster, so he was-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah
[Speaker 3]
... he was per-
[Speaker 1]
All right, Stevie D, I'm passing you to Battod.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And I just wanna finish out Paul's post-NFL career. Uh, Paul co-founded the Joshua Frase Foundation in '96, uh, supporting research for myotubular myopathy, um, inspired by his son, Joshua. Um, and then Paul became a motivational speaker, mental health, uh, advocate, and author. Co-authored the book "Game Changer: Winning with Hope, Love, and Mustard Seed Power" in 2023. And he is the co-founder, uh, or co-host to "The Head Rush Podcast." So Paul, with that introduction, welcome to the show.
[Speaker 3]
Awesome. Awesome to be here. J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets. Sorry, Vince. Hey, Vince, really quick, I'll give it to you. When I came in, you guys were on your, you know, run to 4 straight Super Bowls, and, uh, my very 1st, uh,
[Speaker 3]
uh, experience playing in the Meadowlands on Monday night was Buffalo, and you guys were ahead like 38-nothing in the 1st half, and we didn't have a great comeback in the 2nd half. So kudos to you. I've, uh, I was with, uh, friends with Jim Kelly for a whi- for quite a while, and, you know, you play against these great quarterbacks 17 ti- I played against Jim Kelly 17 times, and then, uh, same with Dan Marino, uh, Elway 4 or 5 times. And, uh, you, it's, uh, it's pretty amazing some of the feats that you see these, uh, greats have. So, uh, anyway, I'll give it to you, man.
[Speaker 1]
But Paul, don't, don't, don't be mo- don't be modest there, because I'm gonna tell you, even in that stretch run,
[Speaker 1]
the games between the Bills and the Jets always seemed to come down to the very last play. One of the games I always talked to Stevie D about was the Jamie Mueller touchdown with, like, no time left on the clock. It, it's just, it, it's, it epitomizes what the rivalry really was, right?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
We didn't have a rivalry with the Patriots. We hated the Dolphins, but between the Bills and the Jets-
[Speaker 3]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... I mean, it just, it was just... There may not have been the same level of hatred, but you wanted... They, they really wanted to beat each other. And so, um, you know-
[Speaker 3]
So we-
[Speaker 1]
... it, it was always tough.
[Speaker 3]
We didn't like you guys. We, we, when, when we have beer bottles lofted up the, off the top of the snow pile by a guy in a snowmobile suit and pissed off that we finally beat the, you guys up in Orchard Park, um, you know, I think James Hasty, uh, w- I, I, you know, he, he, he, uh, he, um,
[Speaker 3]
he, uh, definitely, uh, showed, um, that guy, uh, where to go, uh, you know, through the bus window. So anyway.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, the good old days.
[Speaker 3]
The good old days, yeah, where you didn't get fined and nobody knew. So anyway.
[Speaker 1]
Exactly.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
But we, we, we value your time, um, and, and experience. Uh, just wanted to kind of go through a little bit of your Jet career, um, and, uh, kind of talk about maybe a, a few of your favorite memories with the Jets or somebody that you came across and had a, just had a great conversation with, with the Jets. Maybe like a Joe Namath or something?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah. That, it, it... I, I came in, uh, a year before the Dennis Bird era and, uh, and, uh, what a gentleman and a good teammate he was. I was coming in at the end of the... That was the beginning of the era. I came in at the end of the sack exchange era, and Marty Lyons took me under his wing, and I met Joe Klecko. He was already with Indianapolis, and he stayed over, uh, after Indy came to New York, and, uh, I met him, and a great, great guy. Gr- good... Just wonderful people, you know. Obviously played behind, uh, backed up Mark Gastineau for, for a half a season and, um, and, uh... But okay, Joe Namath story. Um, it was my 2nd year, and I was starting and, uh, we... Mart- Marty Glickman was a radio broadcaster for years, right? Maybe TV 2, but, um, he... It was his retirement party and, uh, Joe Namath was... Joe, Joe was the, um, MC. And, uh, so Fang, uh, Bill Hampton Sr., who was with the Jets, uh, for 38 years in the equipment room, he says, uh, he says, "Paul, hey, uh, Joe's gonna be, uh, down in the bar afterwards, and why don't you come down and hang out?" You know, and I was with my girlfriend. I go, I, I leave the event at, at the end. I walk in the bar, and there's a long table, like all the way, and there's 2 seats all the way at the other end.
[Speaker 3]
And Joe Namath is sitting with Fang at the 1st end. And I didn't know Joe to interrupt him and say, "Hey." And I literally walked down to my seats, way down, and Joe Namath, he got up and he walked the whole entire length of the table. He stuck his hand out and he says, "Paul, you're doing a great job out there. Joe Namath. Good to meet you." And I'm like, "Uh..." And, uh, and th- I, I... He was a classy individual and, uh, and, uh, it w- and,
[Speaker 3]
and I, I, I need to... Well, he...
[Speaker 3]
You talked about the Joshua Frase Foundation. I had a son with a muscle disorder and, uh, and, uh, he was one of 55 known cases in the world when he was born, so on and so forth. You know, well, how are you gonna get research money? Well, we started, uh, uh, Allison, my, my former, uh, from Long Island, had a lot of chutzpah. Let's, let's ra- use the NFL to raise money. And, uh, Joe Namath actually was so gracious. He gave me 5 jerseys signed Joe Namath, and we made a boatload of money. We were... We took them up to Boston where we did our fundraiser for 13 years and, uh, what a, what a, uh, reception that his jersey got. We got a... We had some, uh, uh, some people from Long Island, uh, some, uh, Wall Street guys from Long Island, Long Island would fly up to the event and pay a lot of money for the Joe Namath jersey. So it was very generous and, uh, a lot of, lot of the people from New York were generous and, uh, uh... So anyway, that's, that's my Joe Namath story. Classy guy. Obviously classier when, when he was not struggling with the beverage, which we all are
[Speaker 3]
if, if you have a problem with the beverage, which I did for years. But anyway, uh, yeah. Good, good people that I met along the way.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome. And so you, you went through and you went to Jacksonville. Unfortunately, we, we kind of left you out hanging there, um, and you went over to Jacksonville. They, they went and got you with Jeff Lagaman. And, and how was your time in Jacksonville?
[Speaker 3]
Great. Um, it was... Well, Tom Coughlin was a Bear, and he was a college coach. I mean, obviously he had spent time in the NFL, but as a college coach, he, he treat us, treated us like college co- uh, kids.
[Speaker 3]
Uh, Pete Carroll, um, my last year at the Jets, he would used to give the old guys, uh, a half of a day off every 4th or 5th day just so we could, you know, save our legs and stuff. And, um, uh, um, and, and I, I was in my 8th year when I first got to Jacksonville, and I was thinking, "Oh, maybe, maybe we'll get a little, uh, love, you know, you know, the old guys." And he put, he put us through hell. Took probably 3 years off my life, but you knew what you were getting with Tom Coughlin. And, uh, yeah, the, the 1st year was tough. 2nd year, went to the AFC Championship game, could, you know, had the opportunity to go to the Super Bowl, so that was a pretty cool experience. Um,
[Speaker 3]
I... We came in on different terms. Jeff was a free agent, and I was, uh, and I was a, a, a draft pick. So I got drafted in, in, uh, 2 times in my career, which is pretty un- usual. But, um, Jeff, Jeff's came with a 2 million dollar signing bonus and, and mine came with a... The day before the final cut, "Uh, Paul, we've got this rookie here. You're better than him, but we only have to pay him 80,000, so you, you better take minimum wage or, or you're done." And I'm like,
[Speaker 3]
"Uh,
[Speaker 3]
okay."
[Speaker 3]
But it was, uh... You know what? All that glitters is not gold, but what a ride and what an experience it was in the NFL, so.
[Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm. And then, and then you went to the Packers and, and you were fortunate enough to, to go to a Super Bowl with the Packers. Obviously it didn't end the way you wanted it, um, but, uh, what was that experience like? Uh-
[Speaker 3]
That was surreal. Um, it... Well, 1st of all, the 1st, uh, my 1st experience with the Green Bay Packers was a Monday night game against Chicago in Lambeau Field, and I'm like... I've never experienced this loud of a decibel of noise. What is going on? And then I saw Brett Favre sprint to the numbers on the right of the field and throw a freaking bullet l- on a rope, uh, and, and land 2 yards inside the corner of the end zone, and Antonio Freeman, his, his hands caught the ball 6 inches off the ground. And I'm like, "Oh,
[Speaker 3]
okay. I, I guess this is what it's all about." And, and, and obviously I understood what that Chicago-Green Bay ri- rivalry really meant to, uh, to the mid, the upper, uh, northern Midwest. It was, it... That was pretty astounding. And then having, you know, teammates like the, the Grave Digger, Chili, uh, uh, Gilbert Brown, and, uh, you know, backing up Reggie White. Reggie White, salt of the earth, just w- wonderful people and, uh, yeah. Had a great experience. Went to the Super Bowl in San Diego, 32, and John Elway finally won his 1st Super Bowl. So, good for John, bad for me. And, uh, obviously, that was my 10th year, got to the Super Bowl, didn't go back. It was all smoke and mirrors that next year at Baltimore. And, uh, and, uh, but, uh, had, had a good time in Baltimore, but, uh, the phone stopped ringing after that.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. Now, uh, with that Baltimore Ravens team, was that with Ray? Uh, was Ed Reed there yet? Peter Boulware?
[Speaker 3]
Peter, Peter Boulware. Uh, I met, uh, Ray at the 1st, the 1st week I got there. I, I, I, I actually got r- released from the, um, from the Green Bay Packers in my 2nd training camp with them. 1st time in 11 years, 10 or 11 training camps I got released. So I went home for 4, 4 or 5 weeks, and I stayed in shape, uh, but, you know, sulked a little bit, phone's not ringing, and then all of a sudden the phone rings. Uh, the Baltimore Ravens need a, a long snapper, and I went in and, uh, for the last, uh, 11 games of the season. But yes, I, I met Ray Lewis at a Bible study in Peop- Peter Boulware's house. Um, it was Ted Marchibroda's last year, and we were terrible. And, um, Jim Harbaugh was our, our quarterback. Not saying he was terrible, I'm just saying our team was, uh, in shambles. And I missed the Su- that Super Bowl by 2 years because '98 was my last year, and I think Bal- Baltimore won it in 2000 or 2001.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. 2000-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
I, yeah, the 2000 season, the 2000, I think, but the Super Bowl played in '01, yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
Great experiences, though.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome, awesome. Well, uh, we're, we're glad to have you, like I said. Um, as we jump into your, your post-career and, and obviously you have the Joshua Frase Foundation that you started, you know, right before you, you, you finished your career. And then, uh, a couple years ago you started "The Head Rush," uh, podcast. So tell us, um, what made you start that, uh, that podcast and, and kind of go into a little bit of what that podcast is.
[Speaker 3]
Well, okay. It really stemmed from my life at 47 years old, my brain chemistry. I, I knew a lot about... You're, you're sensitive to a lot of the things in your body being a p- professional athlete. You know if you're wrong, you know if you're right, you know what's going on, and, uh, I was wrong. There, there was something in my head at 47. And fortunately, about 6 months... And I s- I started getting rage and just ridiculous, I, I call it unbridled rage episodes.
[Speaker 3]
And, um, uh, 6 months later, Chris Nowinski, who I had met, um, at the Joshua Frase Foundation, um, efforts, uh, to, up in New, New, New England, New Hampshire, uh, and he played at Harvard. He was a defensive lineman for H- Harvard, and then he got into professional wrestling, and then he was with Dr. Bob Cantu at the Boston University CTE Research Center, whatever they called it back then. And Chris actually called me about 6 months after my
[Speaker 3]
stuff started happening, and I, um,
[Speaker 3]
and I... He said, "Hey, Paul, you want to get involved with the... We're trying to find bar- biomarkers for this disease called CTE, and, uh, you want, you want in?" And I said, "Yeah." And he, uh, "How c- how soon can you get me up there?" Two weeks later, I'm on a plane and I start understanding what repeated head impacts will, can and will do.
[Speaker 3]
Um, fast-forward, uh, saw the movie "Concussion" about 3 years later, was completely demortal- demoralized. Watched that movie. Hey, it wasn't a feel-good movie. It was especially, you know, I mean, my, my, uh, Allison, the mother of my children, she saw it on a tr- a flight back from LA and she bawled her eyes out the, the entire flight. And, um, so, but f- just fast-forward a, a few more years, I see a movie called "Quiet Explosions."
[Speaker 3]
And I'm like, "Hmm." And it actually leaves you with hope. It is a great movie. Andrew Marr is a Green Beret blast explosives specialist, just badass. And, uh, um, Dr. Mark Gordon, it opens up with Dr. Mark Gordon and Andrew Marr on "The Joe Rogan Show," and they t- were talking about inflammation, inflammation, inflammation, period. And from that, that, I stalked Dr. Mark Gordon down in Miami. He was, uh, speaking at a, uh, a continuing education conference down there. I went down, I met him, I got on his protocol for, um, uh, inflammation in the brain, trying to d- quiet that cytokine storm in, in your brain. Do you know how, how long the inflammation will last, the inflammatory cytokines and, uh, um, biomarkers will last in your brain after the last, your final, your last sub-concussive hit or concussion?
[Speaker 3]
17 years. So it's just like, it's just like an Alzheimer's
[Speaker 3]
situation. You can have Alzheimer's, you can have, have developing Alzheimer's for 20 years before you get the symptoms. Same thing with CTE, same things with, with these ner- neurode- degenerative diseases, and they all stem from inflammation, inflammation, inflammation, just like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and you name it.
[Speaker 3]
Um,
[Speaker 3]
I could go on about that, but anywa- so, uh, I started doing a support group, um, uh, do- at Boston University,
[Speaker 3]
and, uh, and, uh, uh, a guy by the name of, uh, Corey Barry, he was a, uh, he was a rodeo guy, bare brown, bareback bronc rider for 9 years professionally. And, uh, we, we talked, uh, uh, talked to the te- together and we decided to do, uh, the "Head Rush" podcast. Since, uh, uh, since, uh, Corey has actually gone on to do, uh, a new endeavor, but, uh, we're, we're just getting ready to gear up, uh, the "Head Rush" podcast again in, in, uh, uh, a new format, but, uh, uh, uh, uh, better and, and, uh, we're gonna be doing some wonderful things, uh, in the future.
[Speaker 2]
Great. That's great.
[Speaker 1]
So Paul, let, let me ask you a question. You know, when we look at the game today, and it really seems like,
[Speaker 1]
uh, CTE, uh, and the concussions really came to the forefront with Mike Webster and Dave Duerson. That, that's where it, you know, it really got the public notice. But
[Speaker 1]
we're talking about a game that has been around since, what, the 1920s, you know, and
[Speaker 1]
you, you have the improvements in the equipment. But I never really heard of anybody from, we'll say, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, um, with concussions. A- and in my mind, I would think that the equipment would make it, uh, probably less likely. Uh, I under- I understand the violence and the speed and the impact, but when I have guys in leather helmets, h- how come I didn't hear about those guys getting concussions? If I have the guys with just the single bar, how come I didn't hear about it then?
[Speaker 3]
Well, I was talking to my head coach from, uh, s- my high school up in New Hampshire. He played at Boston University, and he's probably 87, 88 years old right now. And I was talking to him a cou- a few years ago about the difference in the helmets. He said, "When I played, uh, we had that ride out with the web, and the plastic floated on your head." You know, he says, "I don't re- I don't remember getting, you know, the concussions," just like you're saying, Vince. Uh, "I don't remember." And, and I've gotta believe, even with the leather helmets, I've gotta believe they did not use their heads as weapons as much. And we, w- uh, I'll, I'll show you my, my, my 2nd year helmet. You-- We used to... You see these gouges? This is, this is like hard, hard, hard, hard, and it's hard, hard to get one of these gouges, right? That, that's a nice one. But, um, they get one of these. I don't even see, uh, see it, uh, uh, in, in, in helmets nowadays. And, and I think they get a new one every day or every y- uh, week. We thought we were warriors because we skip- kept the same helmet. Now,
[Speaker 3]
um, did they take as many hits? I don't know. Did they use their, their heads, uh, when they had a, a leather helmet on like Ronnie Lott, uh, the missile going in and, and using his head to just blow someone up? I don't think so.
[Speaker 3]
The only way I can rationalize your question, and it's a great question, and we don't know the answer, but, uh, the only... Because the studies have not been done on it. But the only thing I can relate it to is our helmets were so snug and so tight,
[Speaker 3]
every impact you would get,
[Speaker 3]
you would get the brain sloshing. Obviously, the brain, 100 billion, uh, neurons, it's like a soft butter, the consistency of soft butter. Um, the, the brain, there's jagged edges in the, in the prefrontal cortex in the side of the skull, and, and, uh, you know, it's not smooth. So every single time the brain's floating in the fluid, every single time you whiplash or hit, the brain stops very abruptly against the skull.
[Speaker 3]
And I...
[Speaker 3]
Uh, just my theory,
[Speaker 3]
not gospel, and I'm not a doctor, but, uh, I think the tightness and the snugness of those helmets just impacted every little hit. It's on like a shock going through
[Speaker 3]
to your, to your head, to your brain, to so on and so forth. That's my opinion. Uh, that, you know, don't take that to the bank, but, uh, but, uh... Now,
[Speaker 3]
you know, the, one of the, um, recent, um, uh, the 24-year-old kid that sh- shot himself with the Dallas Cowboys, he w- he had CTE. Um, the, the, the youngest CTE brain autopsy, dead, offed himself, 15 years old.
[Speaker 3]
So,
[Speaker 3]
um, let's... My message is let's go back and educate the parents of repeated head impacts, and let's go back and educate them about the brain and how it's not even... ... protected in the prefrontal cortex, which is the last part of the brain to grow the myelin sheath that gives a little bit of protection around the axons. Doesn't-- It's a, it's not a foolproof protection and y- you know, that's why I say there's no safe age for these concussive sports. Hockey, soccer, uh, rugby, football, you, you name it. And, and, but the sport is not gonna end, so how do we make it safer? You know, h- what, what do we do to, uh, reduce those impacts? And, uh, I could go on and on about statistics and, uh... But I do, you know... We'll, we'll talk about how,
[Speaker 3]
how we can absolutely have an effect on, uh, you know, lessen the, um... You know...
[Speaker 3]
CTE, Boston University,
[Speaker 3]
346 out of 375, 91.7% dead NFL players that were studied, those brains, uh, had CTE. Okay. Bob Stern, who's one of the investigators on that study, says, "Hey, it's a biased sample because the, this player was acting the fool in his 70s or 60s and for the last 10 years, and his, his family said, 'You need to look at his brain.'" Well, they're gonna find something, whether it's white matter damage, vascular stuff in the brain. You know, there's, there's a hun- 10 things, 20 things, 100 things that it can be, but they're, they're finding CTE in a lot of th- those brains. What's the real percentage? It's not 91.7%, but what is the real? What is it, 50%? Is it 30%? Even, even 30%'s pretty darn high. So, we gotta go back and educate the parents. Uh, I mean, and, and the NFL's starting to... And it has to happen from the top down, and they're starting to push the flag football, and that's wonderful and that's good, but
[Speaker 3]
there's something more that we can do on those younger 7-year-olds and 8-year-olds. And, you know, and we'll, we'll absolutely un- un- unpack that, uh, uh, uh, you know. I know we're getting close, you know, time-wise, but, uh, we'll... I'd love to unpack that a little bit more, so...
[Speaker 2]
Well, it's interesting, right? So you brought up the, the front o- of the, of the, the brain, and you talked about, uh, the wall not being fully developed, right? And you... We're talking about these kids in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade, that hasn't developed yet, and those hits that they're taking, whether it's they're spearing, they don't know what they're doing, they're not being taught right, right? Instead of tackling the right way, you're, you're kinda leading with your head and, and that stuff kinda happens, right? So,
[Speaker 2]
we... We're talking about professional athletes that go on and play in college and pros and retire in their 30s or whatnot. But we're... I, I wonder what percentage of kids that really don't go on past high school, but because they played at a young age, they had those hits where you, where you were talking about wasn't developed here for protection, and that brain is sloshing, you know, back and forth, and the parents or the coach don't realize that the young man has been concussed, and putting them back out there for repeated trauma during the same game, right?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
And, and I wonder if that is where we see a lot of things going wrong with young kids that maybe don't even get to the professional, that go undiagnosed.
[Speaker 3]
Every year, and there's statistics from Boston University, every year you play football, organized football, headbanging football, you increase your,
[Speaker 3]
um, um, probability of getting CTE by
[Speaker 3]
an astronomical percent, percent, like 29%, every year. I played 20 years of organized football. I started at 14 in high school. Um, so this kid that had, uh, that was 15 years old, I guarantee his helmet's strapped, uh... His parents strapped the helmet on at 7 years old and let litty- little Johnny ra- rack his brain. And the problem is, you, they think, people think, "Oh, y- they don't have... They don't hit hard enough, you know, they don't..." No. They, they do. They, uh, th- they actually have tested it's almost as much G-force as an NFL hit. Uh, you know, 39 G- Gs, G-forces or whatever. Uh, and, um,
[Speaker 3]
so... And, and, and the helmet's 8 pounds still on these little kids. 6, 7, 8 pounds, and their necks, their necks aren't, uh, you know, strong enough. And you, you know, what, w- So, what do you have to do until the necks are strong enough? Um, y- quite frankly, my,
[Speaker 3]
my journey in the last 2 years has been an in- evolution from
[Speaker 3]
be- uh, uh, sitting with Chris Nowinski in the NFL owner's box at the Jaguars and talking about... I said, "Chris..." And this was
[Speaker 3]
10, 12 years ago. I said, "Chris, I, I chose
[Speaker 3]
to play this game. I chose to ram my head against..." And I did. I knew it wasn't good, but, but I didn't, you know, I didn't think about that. We didn't know how bad it was. But... And Chris said to me, he says, "Well, Paul, I know you chose it, but what about those 7-year-old kids?"
[Speaker 3]
And a lot of times those 7-year-old kids, through family members, through seeing the, the excitement of football on TV, getting wrapped up in this, uh, an exuberant mother, an exuberant father, whatever, um, "Johnny, don't you wanna play football?" And they start strapping on the helmet at 7 years old. Now,
[Speaker 3]
we've found out that repeated head impacts are the culprit. Not concussions,
[Speaker 3]
repeated head impacts. They say, um, you, you get up in, in college, in the NFL, they say you get up to f- 1,000 to 1,500 repeated head impacts a year.
[Speaker 3]
So, um, you know, college, 5 years, NFL, 11 years, how many, how many, uh, repeated head impacts did I get, you know? Um, and, and, and, and some, some doctors, some neurologists, very prominent, said, "Well, you know, the, the sensors were not right on the helmet, so we, we did the mouthpiece sensors, and it's only 350 hits a d- They're only taking 350 hits a year." Well, okay, you just proved our point that it, it takes less hits to get damaged, brain damage, you know? That you're, you're gonna damage your brain. And in that mo- this movie, "Quiet Explosions," there, there was, uh, the Notre Dame buster, um, what was his name? He, he's an older gentleman. He's in his 70s, and he was a superstar at, uh, USC.
[Speaker 3]
And he says, "I don't care if you're, you have a tank, you wear a tank around your head, you're gonna, you're gonna hit your head. You're gonna brain, your brain's gonna slosh around and hit your skull." So Ma- uh, Bruce Parkman
[Speaker 3]
had a son
[Speaker 3]
that ran off an 85-foot cliff,
[Speaker 3]
um, at 17 years old,
[Speaker 3]
and
[Speaker 3]
he played concu- concussive sports for 10 months out of the year,
[Speaker 3]
and nobody knew
[Speaker 3]
what he was dealing with. He was a sweet kid growing up, just a good-hearted kid, but he was tormented, okay? So Bruce Parkman, he's a Green Beret himself, he gets on the, um, trail of, okay, it might be this crazy disease called CTE. But anyway, I love what he says.
[Speaker 3]
If the NFL can stop hitting
[Speaker 3]
and, and lower hits in practice, why can't the seven-year-olds? Why do those seven-year-olds have to hit 4 days a week?
[Speaker 2]
The coaches.
[Speaker 2]
They're winning-
[Speaker 3]
The coaches
[Speaker 2]
... the Super Bowl, Paul. They're winning the Super Bowl.
[Speaker 3]
It's, it's, it's, it's, it now- nowadays, it's money, the, the traveling teams, the this and that. What, what, what, what drives it? Okay, the coaches. So if you take... And, and just for example, if you take
[Speaker 3]
80% of those... I mean, if you take, um, if you only hit one day,
[Speaker 3]
and let's say you only hit 4 days normally and g- game day, so you f- hit 5 days a week. Um, you take one day, uh, and you only hit one day, or you only ha- have one goal line practice or scrimmage that you really get into it, you hit it, and you, you tur- teach the kids just to, you know, grab and poke and s- and fight. Um, and, and you take away the hitting, and you just train these kids the other f- 4 days, train them hard, you can... In, in, in, in, in Baltimore, um, um, our, our coach that who, uh, he, uh, went on to coach the Cincinnati Bengals, um...
[Speaker 2]
Marvin?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, Marvin. Marvin would not have us in pads during the week, but we hand shivered, we hand shivered fast, we got off the ball, we ran to the ball, we did our agilities. We did all that stuff to just, th- th- that you do on, on that six-second play and the, uh, except hit your head. So co- coaches were starting to warm up to it in the NFL, but the kids were still, at 7 years old, hitting 5 days a week. You take... You hit only one day a week, you take 80% of the repeated head impacts away, and you take a lot of brain damage away from these kids.
[Speaker 2]
That's a great point.
[Speaker 1]
So, you know, when, when I was talking to Derek about, uh, today's show and what we were gonna talk about, um, part of the conversation we had, you know, I referenced some things that Steve had told me that, um, he saw firsthand with his son, right, in the coaching that is there. Um, I, I talked about some of the things that I had seen, uh, whether it be when I was coaching Little League or, uh, watching, you know, some family members play. And Steve, he had, had the point that's spot on, right? So most of these coaches that are out there aren't being paid. It's volunteer work, right? But in as much as it's volunteer work, you have guys that feel as though this is their chance to get the call-up to the NFL, right? And so they are trying to emulate what they see in the league, and they're trying to teach that to the youth that are out there playing today, leading with the head, right? Uh, putting the head on the ball, right? That I, I can tell you, and Paul, I don't know, uh, maybe you had the same experience. When you were younger, you were taught the fundamentals. You weren't taught certain things until it was more advanced level. Um, but what Derek really called out is that he... and he's working in the Atlanta area for this, is for there to be some level of certification. There, there needs to be, for these coaches that are, you know, teaching the youth, they need to go to some level of coursework, some level of education on what the fundamentals are. Your, your coursework can't be on what you see on ESPN or Fox or, or anything else like that, watching the game. You need to understand what it means to tackle. How do you do a form tackle? Right? It, that's the base, right? And then I'm with you as far as, um, reducing the amount of contact, uh, for... I, I think that's excellent.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
You, you know-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, go ahead, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
No, no, no. Go.
[Speaker 2]
I was just gonna say, in the brief time that my son played, uh, we actually, as I helped run the defense on the, on that, that one year, and we taught as a staff proper techniques. And we filmed, like every coach, you film every game. And we were surprised what we saw out of the opposing team.
[Speaker 2]
And, but there was a couple of teams that were, I would say dirty, where you're spearing and you're allowing the player to stand over the player and kind of taunt, and the officials don't do anything. At
[Speaker 2]
2nd, 3rd grade, I mean, come on. It, it's sportsmanship, right? You should be helping the guy up, not spearing him, right? And we sent... This is when I knew
[Speaker 2]
I, I was done with, with my son with it. When we sent tape to the league of what was happening to help bring change to the league for the better for the kids, we're 2nd and 3rd grade. It's like we said, when nobody's winning the Super Bowl, teach the fundamentals of the game, teach it the right way so when they get passed on to the next level, they're ready to go. And then that next level of coaches hopefully do this, the right thing and so on and so forth. And I remember it was probably game 6 out of
[Speaker 2]
8, I think, that we played, uh, in, in youth football, and I turned to my wife and I said, "You know what? I, I think Richard's done." I said, "I, I, I'm... This is, this is crazy." And she said to me, "Thank you." She goes, "I didn't know how to tell you that because you're, you know, you're the dad and football, rah, rah, rah, right? And it's about sports." And, and, and she just thanked me and I said, "You don't have to thank me. It's, you know, you see it with your own eyes." And you're talking about your child's wellbeing, right? Love the game of football. I just didn't like what I, I saw where he was playing in the league. And so we, we pulled him. And I wasn't worried about any backlash from any parents or anything like that. "Oh, what's the matter? You, you don't like your kid? It's too tough or too..." I wasn't worried about that. I could care less, right? I tell people where to go on that topic. But it, it's... I was just amazed me
[Speaker 2]
that the league did nothing with it.
[Speaker 2]
That's what shocked me. Like, they didn't care.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
We're talking about 2nd and 3rd graders and you don't care?
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
Mind-blowing. Mind-blowing to me.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. It, it's, it, it... So I, I kind of evolved over the past, uh, 2 years, 18 months, whatever, and, uh, it, it went from, you know, that conversation with Chris Nowinski 8, 10, 12 years ago, uh, uh, to, oh, starting to understand how the brain develops and literally the, the myelin sheath does not develop in the prefrontal cortex until your early 20s and, uh, later for some, uh, m- men, but earlier from, for some women. Uh, that's, that's probably why they're, uh, more mature than us, uh, at, at, uh, at those younger ages. But, but, um, I've al- I've, I've gotten to the point where I know enough about it, I know the science behind it, and I'm like, "Man, if a parent
[Speaker 3]
is educated
[Speaker 3]
about the dangers of repeated head impacts and what they're doing
[Speaker 3]
strapping a helmet on their 7-year-old kid, if they understand the repercussions, then they're culpable for
[Speaker 3]
little Johnny's mental health in 30 years."
[Speaker 3]
Because that's, that's the problem. You don't see it for years. And, and one of the, one of the 1st things that a kid at 18 or 19 years old that is starting to go through changes and getting dark, who used to be a good kid, but he's still going dark and he's isolating and going this and that and... And, uh, uh, one of the 1st things that the doctors should ask is, "Hey, how many head injuries have you had? How many... You know, do you play concussive sports? What's going on? You play hockey?" 1st, the, the, the youngest kid for a year, for a few years was a 17-year-old from, um,
[Speaker 3]
Boston University, Ann McKee, and he offed himself. He was a hockey player. And, and now, uh, University of Pittsburgh, Dr. uh, Ju- Judith Koffler, Koffler, um, worked on his, uh, an autopsy for a 15-year-old. So my deal went from, yeah, no, no helmets. You don't need helmets until high school. Well, my, uh, former, uh, uh, uh, co-host of the "Head Rush" podcast, he, he was like, "Yeah, you know, let them play contact it. Let them come in freshman year, work on their neck, work on their agilities, work on the weight room, get it, get them going, get good, good coaching, get good, you know, exactly what you're talking about, the coaching. And then, you know, put the helmet on and, and let them start banging, uh, yourself sophomore, sophomore year." Yes, that, that makes sense. That makes more sense than s- 7 years old. But I'm al- I'm, I'm to the point where, no, not until 18, and then you can make your own choice and your own decision to rack your brain. But you gotta, you gotta, you know... Will that ever happen? Not in my lifetime, I'm sure. But, um, but, but you can start hitting less.
[Speaker 3]
Y- you don't have to hit 4 days a week. You don't have to hit... I mean, I mean, you... I remember in, in college, excruciating headache for 2 weeks every time you, you, you took, uh, 800 milligrams of whatever, ibuprofen or whatever, just to get through a practice. And you're practicing with a concussion. Your head is so inflamed, your brain is just racked. But, um, anyway, Head Rush podcast, we love looking at modalities and trying to find treatments. Um, right now, uh, we're looking at a red light therapy, which, uh, th-there was a hu- there was a big clinical trial. You gotta check this out at BYU. Um, they just released a paper in March. You guys gotta go research that. But basically what they found is this red light, it's a intranasal photobiomodulation. Uh, it's a red light therapy, but they have a clip in the nose and that they actually send the i-infrared, uh, up the nasal passages. A ton of capillaries and veins or whatever, not veins, but a ton of, uh, uh, access to blood that it g- goes up into the, the brain area. But they find it, it redu- reduces inflammation. It actually, uh, has an effect on the mitochondria, on the ATP, a positive effect, and it, it, it, it actually e- excretes and helps excretes, um, some of the damage, damage, uh, damage that is caused, uh, by the repeated head impacts. And they are sm- they actually are, uh, they keep their intelligence and their, their reaction time, and they, um, actually... And so, so they, they are better players at the end of the season than they were at the, the, the beginning, literally. And, uh, the sham group, which would... It was a, a placebo te- uh, cl- uh, clinical trial, but what it, uh, what it, uh, did was the sham group, the placebo,
[Speaker 3]
100% of them had more inflammation
[Speaker 3]
at the end of the season than at the beginning of the season. The, the, uh, um, the other group that actually had the therapy, less inflammation from the beginning of the season to the end, end of the season.
[Speaker 3]
They had less inflammation, and they had better reaction time, and they had a, a better cognitive ability. So, okay,
[Speaker 3]
i- i- if we're gonna play football, we got, gotta be smart about it. Reduce the impacts, and let's find something that'll help these players stay on the field, if you want, if that's what you wanna do. I'm of the camp of young kids don't need to hit at least until 14, but there's no safe age to play these sports. Some,
[Speaker 3]
some kids
[Speaker 3]
don't... They're not cut out to play football. I mean, you, you, you get into the BDNF, the brain-derived neurotrophic factor, the neuroplasticity. Some... Genetically, I actually am low on that totem pole, so I don't respond... My brain does not respond to concussions. I don't get rid of the inflammation very well. I don't respond to... So I have low neuroplasticity. So should I be on the field racking my brain?
[Speaker 3]
Probably not, but I did it for 20 years. Um, but,
[Speaker 3]
you know, what, you know, what we are focused on is, okay,
[Speaker 3]
reduce the hits, reduce the impacts,
[Speaker 3]
play safer, coach sa- coach better, teach them how to tackle, take the head out of the game as much as you can. Oh, and by the way,
[Speaker 3]
find a modality that works. Don't put a kid on an SSRI drug just because they're getting depressed and they're isolating themselves at 17 or 18 years old. Talk to the kid and find out how many, uh, repeated head impacts he had and how, how much he, uh, played sports and soccer. I played soccer my 1st... I was coaching soccer probably... My, my daughter's 25. I was coaching her at 7 years old, so that's a long time ago, right? And, uh, and, and I was coaching her and her team, and I headed the ball, the ball one time, and I'm like, "Ah, that hurts." Man, that is serious stuff. Ser- I mean, there's no joke.
[Speaker 1]
So, Paul, I, you know, I was gonna ask you, in all the studies, in the reports, because we all know about the soccer moms, right? The soccer moms said, "No, I don't want little Johnny to play football 'cause it's so violent." And they're like, "But he can run around and play soccer," which is the hidden danger of just contact, right? The headers and the collisions and, and the corner kicks and everything else, and you're banging the head, and you have no protection.
[Speaker 3]
You go, you go back to the coaching, don't you? Because, um, I personally, uh, I had a rugby player from New Zealand. He was, uh, uh, all pro. They don't have all pro, but he was one of the best. He played professional
[Speaker 3]
soccer,
[Speaker 3]
um, and he played professional rugby. He said they had practices even when he was 14 years old that the coach would throw the ball at his head 100 times a day. Boom, boom, boom. Every one of that is a re- repeated head impact, and that's what causes the brain damage. And don't... Make no mistake about it. If you, if you have one axon shear off from hitting your head, that's brain damage. You're damaging the brain. I don't, I don't... I mean, so, you know, people are saying, "Oh, you're extreme. What are you talking about?" You know, well, you have 100 billion neurons. Yeah, remember,
[Speaker 3]
one thing I am glad about, do you remember, maybe you guys don't remember, but they used to tell us if you go out drinking the one night and carousing, you're gonna, you're gonna kill 10,000 brain cells, and you're not, never gonna get them back. Well,
[Speaker 3]
1st of all, your brain actually... I think it's the hippocampus that spits out 700, um, new neurons a day. So thank you, Lord. But-
[Speaker 3]
And let's go back, and I'm gonna throw a huge component into this.
[Speaker 3]
I'm gonna throw a huge component into this, diet.
[Speaker 3]
Food is the medicine.
[Speaker 3]
There's so many things that you can eat and ingest that actually take inflammation out of the body. Not Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, which I love.
[Speaker 3]
But you can, you can-- And, and, and in my age, and I- I'm finding out, I, I, I've been on a, um, uh, I did a sugar cut because I was pre-diabetic. How, how-- I, I don't wanna keep dragging on, but how, how long do we have?
[Speaker 2]
As long as you can go.
[Speaker 3]
Really good-
[Speaker 2]
It's up to you.
[Speaker 3]
Real- really, really fast. Uh, uh, uh, 8 months ago, I was pre-diabetic. I had s- uh, my glucose was going from 85 to 117 over 15 years, um, and my, uh, AC1 was at 6.4, pre-diabetic. I get serious about... I do a sugar cut. No more than one gram to t- or 2 grams of sugar in what I ingest, e- anything I ingest. I didn't have to, uh, starve myself. I literally just took the sugar out of my diet.
[Speaker 3]
8 weeks, I go back,
[Speaker 3]
um, hem- or, uh, uh, uh, glucose 91 from 117 down,
[Speaker 3]
AC1 6.4 down to 5.4,
[Speaker 3]
out of pre-diabetic.
[Speaker 3]
And, and, um,
[Speaker 3]
f- I, I, I, I can't tell you enough,
[Speaker 3]
food,
[Speaker 3]
good food, good healthy food, not processed food.
[Speaker 3]
Omega-3s.
[Speaker 3]
Omega-3s were found in, um, in 67% of suicides in one study. Uh, I think it was a couple of 100, uh, of our servicemen and women.
[Speaker 3]
And the omega-3s were s- found, uh, the ratio was found to be higher than 5.4 or something like that. They associated omega-3s, l- low doses of omega-3s in, um, mental wellness or brain health or brain wellness. Now,
[Speaker 3]
let's, let's go back. Before processed foods, omega-3 and omega-6. Omega-3 anti-inflammatory, omega-6 inflammatory. Both-- Th- the body b- needs both. They had a ratio of one to 3, one to 2, one to 3 back in the
[Speaker 3]
'60s or '50s before processed foods. Do you know what it is now? It's, it's, it's one in 26.
[Speaker 3]
So just, just ingesting the normal diet of Amer- great old America and the, the 3 tiers of, you know, the following the, uh, not the FDA, but the... No, no, all the, all the, all the...
[Speaker 3]
Don't b- get me started. But just by following that, your, your omega-3s are way out of whack,
[Speaker 3]
so you have to be concerned. Now,
[Speaker 3]
I took, um, I took it seriously. I took my health seriously, started eating better, make my own hummus, no seed oils. One of... You know, I can, I can go down that rabbit hole. I'm not going to. But literally making, uh, my o- uh, our, our own hummus. We make, um, our own, um, uh,
[Speaker 3]
sauerkraut. Great for the gut. All that vinegar and stuff and fermentation, great for the gut. When I took... I, and I got off all supplements, and when I took my blood tests, um, 2 months ago, everything was actually really, really good. Now,
[Speaker 3]
we've all heard little Johnny takes a couple donuts and Froot Loops. If I was able to eat Froot Loops every day of my life, I would have. But we di- we-- My mother made us have Cheerios, so... And powdered milk. And powdered milk. Go ahead.
[Speaker 2]
I, I hear that with the Cheerios or oatmeal. I never had the sugary cereals. Mom wouldn't allow it.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah. And the gl- the glyphosate with the oatmeal, uh, ugh, don't, don't even, uh, uh... I, we-- That's another show.
[Speaker 3]
Um, but
[Speaker 3]
we gotta reduce, we gotta figure it out, because it is,
[Speaker 3]
uh, you know, people say it's not as much of a problem, uh, as they make it out to, and Boston University is, uh, you know, doing scare tactics and... Oh, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's a real disease state, and, um, it can be avoided. So it's the only neurodegenerative, uh, um, disease that actually can be, uh, uh, avoided. It's the only one.
[Speaker 2]
You know, Paul-
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 2]
... you know, hearing your story, you know, as a player into what you're doing today, um, it, it, it really is unbelievable the education that, that you are bringing, because it is so important, and these topics should be talked about, and they shouldn't be swept underneath the rug. And parents should have the opportunity to hear stories just like yours that you're telling right now, um, because at the end of the day, you love your children,
[Speaker 2]
and they should always be put 1st and not a sport.
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 2]
Doesn't matter if a coach says, "Hey, little Johnny's my guy. I need him back on the field." You as the parent have to recognize the signs in your, in your child that that child is not ready to go back. And if that person needs to sit out 3, 4 weeks, or the rest of the season, do it. Don't rush back for a coach.
[Speaker 3]
And they, they can't-
[Speaker 2]
It's huge.
[Speaker 3]
Really quick, they can't be peer pressured or coach pressured, you know, "Toughen up." You know, no, please. You gotta get that out of the game. You know, it's not gonna sissify the game. You're still gonna have massive, uh, bone-crushing hits. Vince, I'm sorry I cut you off.
[Speaker 1]
No, I, I, I was just gonna say real snarky. I said, I was gonna say, "Steve, how are we gonna get that NIL money?" How are we gonna get that 1000000 dollar contract if little Johnny has to sit out, you know, 4 or 5 weeks?
[Speaker 3]
I put, I put Brett Favre on, on, on, uh, on kind of a... I asked him directly, I said, "Hey, what do you think?" Because we had him on the Head Rush podcast, and he was talking about his parkinsonisms and, uh, uh, so on and so forth. And, uh, he said, I said, "What do you... Why do you think the NFL is not pushing,
[Speaker 3]
you know, flag football more, and why do you think these 7-year-olds are still allowed to put helmets on?"
[Speaker 3]
And he said, "It's money, Paul. It's money." And we all, we, we all know that. So, Steve, you just mentioned, and, and, and, and Vince, with your snarky comment, it, it's why are, why are we not taking into account our children's wellbeing and really,
[Speaker 3]
really protecting them? We protect them against alcohol as much as we can. We protect them against smoking. We protect them against whatever, uh, all of the i- the ills of society. But we
[Speaker 3]
glorify the, the mashing of, you know, flesh and bone. And, and I, I, you know, okay, I, I loved, I loved, I loved going out to the numbers when Thurman Thomas was, was, uh, spread, doing a, a sprint out, and I loved ear holing him and taking him down. We still lost the game though. But you... And, and I loved slipping through the line and hitting Eric Dickerson in the backfield. And I, well, I, I didn't love that particular one because he saw me coming, and he hunched down when he got the ball, and he gave me everything, and I gave him everything, and he... My helmet was twisted, and my chin strap was up over my nose, and I was seeing stars. And he was, he was, uh, he was strong. Um, anyway, and, you know, okay, it, it, it was... Yeah. But, but we didn't, you know, we didn't know as much as we know now back then. So let- let's, let's take a little precaution on, on the, uh, uh, you know, let's, let's err on the side of prec- uh, of, of health for our kids' mental wellbeing and brain health, brain health down the line.
[Speaker 4]
Um-
[Speaker 1]
You know, one of the things that I... Oh, I'm sorry. One, one of the things that I am happy to see is when you watch the 7-on-7 or you watch some of these larger flag football, they're all forced to wear the headgear. So that is a change in, you know, you start talking about the NFL, because the NFL is a big proponent now of this flag football, right? So they're, they're-
[Speaker 3]
Yes
[Speaker 1]
... like the title sponsor.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
So they are forcing, at least at that age, right, all of these kids to wear the headgear. And I think that's at least... Because I have a lot of negative to say about the NFL and about what Roger's done, but I, I have to give him credit and give him kudos for that.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. It, it's, it's, uh, it's a start. Um,
[Speaker 3]
there needs to be a lot more research on some of these, um, potential th- therapies. Uh, you, you're still gonna, you're, you're, you're still gonna get your head sloshing, your brai- brain sloshing and hitting the, the skull, but it is a start. Um, you're, they, they have... I believe they have proven that the, the, the guardian caps or whatever can help a little bit with G-forces or a little bit with, uh, absorption of the, uh... But it's still, it's still gonna happen. Um, yeah. But less, i- it's gonna happen less and less, and obviously they're, they're not using their heads as missiles anymore, or trying not to, I guess.
[Speaker 3]
Uh, yeah, I wa- I was pretty... It was pretty cool when, when Pete Carroll went to, um, um, when he went from USC to, uh, Seattle. He was one of the first, uh, and, and even, you know, even when they had the Legion of Boom, right, he was one of the 1st to start, uh, showing the tackling for, like, the ki- kind of hog tying, you know, trip them up, you know, you know, take out their legs type of thing instead of using your head. Yeah, because Ronnie Lott obviously, uh, uh, he was actually, uh, in Pete Carroll's last couple years, Ronnie Lott left for the Raiders and came to play with us. What a, what a gem of a human being. And, uh, but he was still... Oh man, he was still missile. Boom! And, uh, but, um, uh, you know, I haven't talked to him for quite a while, but I'm, I'm sure he's doing okay. But, uh, Pete, uh, again, Pete Carroll was, uh, proactive in, uh, trying to coach and, you know, a better technique and keep the head out of, uh, the game. But, uh, yeah, keep... L- lower the, the, the drills that you, you rack your brain, you know. Lo- l- take away a lot of those, those drills. Work on agilities and work on hand placement, work on... Uh, my 1st step, George O'Leary killed us as a defensive line coach. But h- I, my... He drilled into me 4-inch 1st step, because if you take a 4-inch 1st step as a d- defensive lineman, your feet, both feet are on the ground, and you're able to redirect. You're able to shuffle. You're able to jack. You're able to, to have power come out of your legs because your stance and when you hit those, those linemen. And, uh, just from that technique, teaching that technique, I think that, that helped me. That probably helped me more than anything of getting in the NFL. Obviously, I was kind of fast. Obviously, I, I had a drive that, you know, uh, Paul Zimmerman actually, uh... And I didn't know... ... who Dr. Z was and, you know, but, but he said, uh, phrase and, uh, who was the other kid? Um, uh, Blair, Blair Thomas, I think. Or, or no, uh, uh, it wasn't that year, but he, he was, uh, he's saying, "Oh, th- this kid is, uh, underrated and, you know, he- his motor never stops." Well, the motor never stops keeps a lot of guys in the league for years if they have a little bit of talent. And, uh, you, you,
[Speaker 3]
you know, you can teach that better
[Speaker 3]
without cramming, you know, uh, banging heads. That's,
[Speaker 3]
that's my story. I'm trying to, I'm trying to preach the gospel and, uh, to whoever will listen. Uh, but, uh, yeah. Great.
[Speaker 2]
I, I, I got 2 things for you, Paul, um, uh, before we let you go. Um,
[Speaker 2]
Al Toon,
[Speaker 2]
have... Do you talk to Al Toon? Obviously, as Jet fans, we know the story of Al Toon a- and, you know, coming over the middle, taking those hits. Have you talked to him? Has he been with the "Head Rush," uh, podcast? And-
[Speaker 3]
No.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Speaker 3]
And I would love, I would love to talk to him. I've heard... I, I know he was a Wisconsin kid. Uh, Don Davey was a Wisconsin guy. I have not been able to contact, uh, get in contact with Al Toon.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. Um, and then secondly, you know, Vince mentioned Roger Goodell. We're not huge fans of Roger and some of the things he's done with the league, um, uh, since he's taken over. But one thing that we don't agree with is Thursday Night Football. Uh, you have-
[Speaker 3]
Mm
[Speaker 2]
... players playing on, on Sunday-
[Speaker 1]
Glad you brought that up
[Speaker 2]
... right? Play- playing on Sunday, and now all of a sudden you're a player-friendly league, um, where you're about player safety, but yet you're gonna allow 2 teams to turn around with only 3 days rest to go play again on Thursday night. What, what is your take on Thursday Night Football?
[Speaker 3]
I didn't realize how dangerous repeated or a 2nd, uh, head syndrome is. I, I, they have a pers- s- specific name for it, but you can die from concussions back to back. And, and, um, it, it's... Yeah, there, there's, there's n- definitely not enough, uh, time to, to, uh, get inflammation out of the brain after 3 or 4, 4 days. Um, you're already back on the field, uh, the day after the game. Um, uh, yeah, it, it's,
[Speaker 3]
yeah, there's, there's been a couple tough decisions that I've struggled with too. And, and one is actually the, the... When, when, when I 1st got to the Jets, it was, uh, the fir- the very 1st meeting of, of every year, Leon Hess would come up and talk, and then, uh, then we'd have the league saying, "Stay away from those bar, bars that run the numbers and the bookies." You know, "You, you, you can't... You get involved with... You stay away from them." Now, now the NFL owns the betting, uh, and, and I'm, I'm not a fan of that. I really am not. Um, I don't understand. It, it got them through COVID,
[Speaker 3]
um, that, that's for sure. And it's, uh, oh, are we talking about money again? Uh, it's-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 3]
So, um, but
[Speaker 3]
y- if the NFL... The, uh, it, it does have to stop. The education has to start in the NFL. They don't hit as much. That's, that's a fact.
[Speaker 3]
Um, but I think they need to be proactive and really speak out against little Johnny and Susie now, because Susie's, at 7 years old, is playing football.
[Speaker 3]
So little Johnny and Susie, no helmets, no, no s-
[Speaker 2]
Even soccer, right? Any sport, volleyball.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Any sport that, that-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... you could be hitting your head, right? Uh-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah, exa- yeah. And, and I, obviously I talk football because that's... But, uh, any concussive sport, there's no reason. The, the, the... I was talking to some hockey players, Ales Hemsky, 16 year, uh, from, from the, uh, Czech Republic, uh, played 16 years in the NHL. Um, they are starting to, you know, you can't check in the younger leagues, you know, and they, they, they try to... You know, they're implementing rules. Soccer up in, uh, Canada, I guess it's the s- 1st... I don't know if it was the professional or, or, or, or, or the college or school a- ages that they were only allowed to head the ball 10 times, uh, a week or something like that. So it's the 1st... So things are starting to trickle in, but we're, we're, we're losing a kid at 24 years old, uh, from brain, um, health problems, uh, killing himself and having CTE. Um, is CTE the, uh,
[Speaker 3]
is the, is the CTE the cause? We can't say that. We can't say that. But we know CTE, uh, is definite, definite symptoms. And s- part of the symptoms are irrationality, uh, uh, addictive personalities, rages, uncontrolled rages, you name it. But, um, but again, can't say it caused him to kill himself because that suicide is a very complicated, um, uh, act, um, um, fr- by the individual. And there's so many things that
[Speaker 3]
could and do attribute to it. But, uh,
[Speaker 3]
uh, yeah, I mean, mm, the, we're, we're... Yeah, go ahead.
[Speaker 1]
Paul, you, you said something earlier. You were talking about the repeated, uh, shots to the head or shots to the brain, and then you followed up and you said, uh, "They need to change the drills." And what that struck me with was the Oklahoma drill.
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 1]
Right? And that is one of the... Or bull in the ring, right? That's another one.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
That-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... the, the Oklahoma drill,
[Speaker 1]
if, if you think about this, you, you would have 2 guys laying down, right? They get up in, I mean, no more than 3-yard span, right? Something like that. And you hear pads cracking, helmets popping, and if you didn't make the tackle, they tell you, "Get down and do it again."
[Speaker 3]
Mm.
[Speaker 1]
And so now it's the repeat- And now you're going even harder, right?
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
Because you just messed up. And pads cracking, helmets popping again, and then they'll have you do it again, right? And, and it's the repeatedness of what you were just talking about. And you think about that, that you... There were times, and especially in the summer before they, it really got going, that you would run Oklahomas every single practice.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
For like 3 or 4 weeks straight. It, it... That was... That is violent. Violent.
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 1]
And then you think about-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... what it does to the brain.
[Speaker 3]
It's violent, and the whole team is standing around yelling, and, and you, you've seen-
[Speaker 1]
Yes
[Speaker 3]
... some of the videos of the coaches, "Get back up, ah!" You know, just going nuts.
[Speaker 1]
Yep.
[Speaker 3]
And really, yeah. Yeah. Really, really quick to that point.
[Speaker 3]
Um, repeated head impacts. Uh, um, CTE is a, a tauopathy. I guess the, the, it, it, it, it involves the tau protein. Um, tau protein is good in your brain, uh, in your, in your CNS, your central nervous system. Tau protein actually brings structure to the microtubules down the axonal, um, uh, little tubes where the, um, neurotransmitters actually flow from the neuro- uh, neurons down the axons into the dendrites, and then they spread, okay? And, and I, I know we're getting late. But, um, so, uh, the, the mi- the tau,
[Speaker 3]
tau comes to the rescue after a head impact.
[Speaker 3]
If the tau comes to the rescue after the head, h- head impact over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and doesn't have any time to, uh, rest and get the inflammation out, the tau can, becomes c- uh, what they call phosphorylated.
[Speaker 3]
And it's tau, like a nail, phosphorylated tau, like a bent nail. That's they... That's what BU described it very, uh, th- that's the only way I can understand it. So, but the bottom line is, you know,
[Speaker 3]
actually the tau actually starts degrading and damaging those microtubules whe- where, uh, important, like acetylcholine, which ha- handles your heart rate, your breathing, your autonomic system. Acetylcholine travels down those, uh, those axonal, the, uh, microtubules. And the tau gets damaged and damages those microtubules. That's why you have neurons starting to shut down and ki- be, be killed, and you get the black spots like in Junior Seau's brain and Dave Duerson's and y- you, you name it. Uh, Mike Webster and so on and so forth. Um, you have to give the brain a rest. You have to,
[Speaker 3]
and you have to stop shaming these kids if they say, "Hey, Coach, my head's not right." "Okay,
[Speaker 3]
get... You know, it, it's time. It's time for you to get off the field, okay? No problems. You know, let, let, let's get you back on the f- you know, get, get you ba- better, take a rest, find out what's going on." Um-
[Speaker 1]
Paul, you gotta talk, you gotta talk to Tua. You have got to talk to Tua.
[Speaker 1]
And I-
[Speaker 3]
Why? Uh, who, who has him, wh- who has him brainwashed that, uh, that, uh... I, I don't know. I mean, what... He's, he's a smart kid.
[Speaker 3]
What's going... Who, you, you... Uh, do you guys know him personally? Uh, uh, I mean...
[Speaker 1]
I, I, I, I don't. I don't, but all that I've heard is that it was the family was pushing for that contract. That, that's what I've heard. But you, you look at what he endured, and y- again, you talk about back-to-back concuss- concussions. You talked about that earlier.
[Speaker 3]
He-
[Speaker 1]
He, he, he took... He had a horrible hit from Matt Milano in the Bills game that they then said it was a back injury. I mean, this is the, this is the league that, that we're talking about, and this is his team and his organization saying, "Oh, no, you can come back in in the 2nd half. It was a back injury." We know it wasn't. We saw the head hit the ground. And then Stevie D., what game was it? It was, like, the next game, I think.
[Speaker 5]
Next game.
[Speaker 1]
Was it Pittsburgh? Was it Pittsburgh or-
[Speaker 5]
I don't remember.
[Speaker 1]
I forget. He, he got thrown around like a ragdoll. Again, head hitting, I mean, full force. Uh, and then they're like, "Oh, well, maybe he does have a concussion. He needs to sit out."
[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
But he's had so many. It's so fragile. You, you talk about just the fragility of the brain. It, it... At some point, and I, you know, I'm not a Tua fan, right? I wa- definitely was not a Dolphins fan. Not a big Tua fan. But I, I'm a fan of human life. I, I'm a fan of the wellbeing of man, and somebody has got to get to him and say, "Look, teaching you how to fall, that's not gonna do it." Right? 'Cause that, that was the big revelation. "We're gonna teach you how to fall."
[Speaker 1]
Uh, he's got a concussion after that. It, it's not that, right? But you have got to stop. And I, I feel bad for him because to... Your, your question is-
[Speaker 1]
Who got to him? I, I think it's the parents. I, I think it's the family. I think it's the pressure maybe that he feels that, that he's carrying on his shoulders that, "I have to provide for everybody." But Tua, you made enough to provide for them. You, you did. You absolutely did. And the only thing you're doing is, is shortening your life and, and you could run the risk, you know, and, and God forbid, you, but you could run the risk of something happening in the very near term. So I just-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... yeah, I, I hope he watches this and listens to you, watches your podcast, listens to you. Something's gotta, gotta strike.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Uh, i- it's, I, I, I watched that with just incredulous, um... I was stupefied of how they allowed him back in the game. I, I did not understand that. Um,
[Speaker 3]
i- i- is he... Was, were they trying to make him the next Patrick Mahomes? Or I, I don't know what they were doing. I don't know what Miami was doing. I don't know what the NFL... I, I, if it... I, I would have thought that, um, uh, Goodell would have made a phone call from New York, uh, uh, down to Miami if it was a home game down there and said, "Hey, uh, he's done." Um, I don't know. I, I don't... I, I mean, I, I know, I have ideas. I have ideas and, uh, and, and, and he's a competitor and he's... Obviously, he's, uh...
[Speaker 3]
I don't...
[Speaker 3]
Me personally, I, I, I've, I've been able to step back out of the game and really research it and understand, understand how dangerous it is. Um-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 3]
... especially the repeated... I mean, the, you, you can die from, uh, uh, the 2nd concussion syndrome, wha- whatever. Like, I g- again, I, there is a name for it. It's, uh... You can tell I'm not a doctor, but I just,
[Speaker 3]
uh... Yeah. I, I did, I did start learning a lot about genetics with my son, um, and, uh, uh, that, that was quite a journey and, uh, that, um... You, you start learning about science, but you start learning how to ask the right questions too, uh, to-
[Speaker 1]
Well, you could have, you could have fooled us 'cause, uh, I, I was taking it all in and you sound just like my doctor. You gotta eat right, you gotta eat these foods, you gotta do these things. That sounds like my doctor and then, you know, stop, you know, banging your head on the wall. Okay, that makes sense.
[Speaker 3]
My, my mom wanted me to be a doctor, so, uh, uh, but I, I chose football. Uh, uh, football been very good to me.
[Speaker 3]
But whatever. But, uh, yeah, I mean,
[Speaker 3]
yeah, there's just, there's, there's changes. I think changes are coming, much needed changes. So-
[Speaker 1]
W- was that, was that from the, um-
[Speaker 2]
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-
[Speaker 2]
Sammy Sosa, Sammy Sosa.
[Speaker 1]
No, no. Uh, was that Johnny Car- was that Johnny Carson?
[Speaker 3]
W- yeah, I, I-
[Speaker 1]
This is way back in the day and they had... They were going through the lineup and they had, like, this lineman and he's like, "You know, number 75, football been good to me."
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that's right. Football been very good to me. That, that's, that's what it was. That was what... Hey, one, one thing, you know, in, in... You know, you're so enamored and people are enamored with it. I was enamored to meet Joe Greene. You know, he was p- coaching for the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive line and they brought me in when I was a free agent, or I was unprotected with the Jets before that draft. And, uh, or plan B, that, that plan B debacle. Man,
[Speaker 3]
that's, uh...
[Speaker 3]
And I, I digress. Talking about 55,000 dollars, you know, rookie salary and, and, and, and these, these kids nowadays, what, 840,000 is the minimum wage, so good, good for them. So...
[Speaker 1]
Taking pay cuts when they come in the league for what they-
[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
... get in college now.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, you, you're going back to the NIL. Yeah, I... Unbelievable that, that, that program, uh, got out of hand the way it did. Uh, there, there should have been... 1st of all, if a kid
[Speaker 3]
signs a contract for 3 years, he should have been
[Speaker 3]
obligated to that contract for 3 years, not taking off-
[Speaker 1]
100%.
[Speaker 3]
Oh, I, I, I didn't get that. I mean, there, there's, there's business, there's contracts in business that you have to adhere to. It's not, you know... I just, I, I just... I was having a, a conversation with a dear family member from Zaire, the National Republic of the Congo, and we were, we were talking about world politics and stuff. And I said, "You know what?
[Speaker 3]
The... Our society has... If, if it was devoid of greed and power-hungry people, it would have been the best eco- economical society, period, you know, on the face of the earth." But the greed and the, the power struggle is, is what takes it down, which it is probably what takes down a lot of...
[Speaker 3]
I, I, I didn't... I was... I didn't take history and sociology, uh, uh, very seriously in college, but, uh, yeah. This world...
[Speaker 3]
Okay, we'll just... It will go back to love and respect and, um, and, and honoring life,
[Speaker 3]
um, and relationship. Relationship is
[Speaker 3]
so important.
[Speaker 2]
It is. It is. So Paul, how about this? H- how do we... How does the audience get to see the Head Rush po- uh, podcast? Where can they find you? How can they reach out? Um, and, and, and, and again, same thing with the, the Joshua Phrase Foundation. Um...
[Speaker 3]
Well, we're, uh, so, so, uh, one, the head-
[Speaker 2]
Oh.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh.
[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh.
[Speaker 1]
Looks like we had a little difficulty there, Stevie D.
[Speaker 1]
Man.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, he's trying to come back. I can hear him a little bit.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Oh, he dropped. We'll, we'll see if we get him back. We'll, we'll, we'll see if we can get him back.
[Speaker 1]
Man, Stevie D, um,
[Speaker 1]
there's just so much to unpack,
[Speaker 1]
um, in, in, in what he's talking about. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I... You know, all the way from the 7-year-olds, right? And, you know, and he talks about, you know, his opinion, no, no contact until, you know, 18, which makes a lot of sense, right? Because you, you want the, the brain to fully develop. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I, I think there's a society problem, right? Because, um,
[Speaker 1]
it's about being macho, right? The, the machismo. Um, and if you have a son, right? The 1st question people say, "Is he gonna play football?" Right? Because that's the big, tough, burly.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
But it's, it's all sports. And I, I think we're naive to it. I w- I'm glad he brought it up. I wanted to ask him about soccer, because soccer, uh, I, I don't wanna use this term, but you'll get where I'm going, is kind of like the silent killer, right? And so many of the, um, moms, you know, we call them the soccer moms, right? They pulled their kids out of playing football because they were afraid that they were gonna get hurt. And they said, "You're gonna play soccer."
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Because they thought little Johnny's just gonna run up and down the field and kick a ball and score a goal. But now you have direct head-to-head contact without a helmet. And I'm not saying that it, you know, safe and s- but now you're taking that, and you're heading the ball. And he was talking about a coach making a guy head a ball 100 times, right? So it doesn't matter what sport. Hockey, right? The same thing. Um,
[Speaker 1]
it... We, we have to be more cognizant. There has to be more research, and there has to be more done, uh, for, for the youth. And, um, I don't think it'll ever change. I, I don't think it'll ever change. We can make some changes to it, right? Like, like y- the 7 on 7 wearing the head guard. Um, you can make some changes to it. But at the end of the day, we're a society about, you know, being tough, um, you know, being able to pound your chest, uh, wanting your kids to live in your footsteps, or trying to live your life through your kids, right? Then you have the opposite. You couldn't do it, so you want little Johnny, you wanna be, you know, see him do it.
[Speaker 2]
It's amazing how often that is the reason right there.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Like, the, the parent living through their child and pushing that child to do stuff that they may not want to do because they didn't do it or didn't have the talent to do it, or whatever the case may be. They had injuries, they, they stopped early, but they, they wanna see their kid, you know, be a-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... o- old world player. So, um, you know, just... I know we lost Paul here, but, uh, for our audience, um, for Paul, you can catch Paul on the Head Rush po- uh, podcast on Facebook. Uh, you can join the Face... Oh, there he is.
[Speaker 1]
Oh.
[Speaker 2]
It looks like he's coming back. Um,
[Speaker 2]
yep.
[Speaker 2]
No, g-
[Speaker 2]
no, no, no, no. No, you're gonna come up. We're just working to get you back on the screen here. Um, and, uh, you're gonna be up on the screen here in a second. Um, and we were just gonna... We were just about to say where they can find the Head Rush, uh, podcast and, and such. So, uh-
[Speaker 3]
Exactly. I'm sorry about that.
[Speaker 2]
There we are.
[Speaker 3]
All right.
[Speaker 2]
And he's back.
[Speaker 2]
So, if you wouldn't mind telling the audience wh- where they can find the Head Rush p- uh, podcast.
[Speaker 3]
Absolutely. So, uh, we are going through, uh, uh, uh, a few changes at the Head Rush, uh, Head Rush podcast. Um, we're going to have the sites up and running, uh, all of the social media sites. Uh, we were on, uh, Instagram, um, and, uh, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, the, the whole deal. So... But you can, uh, DM me at Paul Miles Phrase from Facebook. Uh, I'm at, uh, Instagram, uh, paul.phrase. Uh, I guess that's, uh, how they say it. Uh, but, uh... And then you can actually g- find me on Facebook at Paul Phrase 91 as we're going through this change. Um, one of, one of the quick things I, I wanna talk about really, really briefly, this book is a, is a, um, award-winning book. Uh, my former wife and I wrote it about our son and Jo- Joshua. Joshua, um, uh, had myotubular myopathy. It was one of 55 known cases in the world. And, uh, we... Uh, now there, there's 5 to 8,000 kids out there, and we, uh, finished, uh, 24 years of research with, uh, a clinical trial, and 20, 20 kids are, uh, uh, alive today that, uh, quite possibly, uh, could have deceased. So, um, that's, uh, the, the Joshua Phrase Foundation. You know, we do, uh, still do some advocacy work there. Um...
[Speaker 2]
How can people-
[Speaker 3]
Uh, paulfrase.com.
[Speaker 2]
Do you take donations there?
[Speaker 3]
Yes. Yes, we do at the, the Joshua Frase. It, it's pleasedonate.org, I believe. Um, but if you go to the Joshua Frase Foundation, you, you can absolutely press on the donate, uh, button. Um, buy, buy this book. Uh, it's a, it's a very i- inexpensive book. It's a quick read, and it's, uh, uh, it's a phenomenal... I mean, uh, it's just got a lot of twists, turns, ups, downs, and, uh, uh, so, um... But yeah, they-
[Speaker 1]
Hey, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Hey, hey, Paul, would you be okay if we, uh, put a link to-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... where they can buy the book on our website? So we have-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... uh, OW Sports Network.
[Speaker 3]
Absolutely.
[Speaker 1]
Uh, and I-
[Speaker 3]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... I started thinking about we should create a library, right? So we had, uh, Derek, and we could put his and the link to that, and can we do the same for yours?
[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that would be wonderful. Yeah, I mean, right now it's easy to just go to Amazon, "Game Changer," Paul Frase, and, uh, you can bring it up pretty, pretty easily from that. Um, so, uh, yeah, we're, we're, we're excited about... You know, I'm excited about s- education and bringing awareness to, you know, these, these families, and, and the parents mostly, you know. Um, uh, we, uh, you know, we, we were just getting started with the Head Rest Foundation, um, getting, getting a lot of, uh, uh, uh, legalities and bylaws and s- things that, uh, we, we, we wanna, we wanna be a help to people that suffer from repeated head impacts. Um, and, uh, and, and again, we're researching therapies, uh, we're researching modalities, um, and, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna keep pushing until, uh, until we, we're told to stop.
[Speaker 3]
So, but, uh, yeah. Uh,
[Speaker 3]
and, uh, I'm sorry I don't have a, a lot, lot of information right now, but the Paul Miles Frase, uh, uh, w- Facebook, easy to DM me. Uh, Paul Frase on LinkedIn, easy to get in touch with me, and, uh, I'm happy to have, uh, conversations about repeated head impacts with, uh, anybody and any time.
[Speaker 2]
Awesome. Thank you, Paul.
[Speaker 3]
So-
[Speaker 2]
Man, we really appreciate your time tonight. You gave us a, a lot of time. Um, I know we talked about o- only having you on for 40 just to respect your time, and, and you gave us a lot more than that. And, and not only for, for Vince, but our audience, you know, it's that education piece that is, that is so, so valuable. Um, and, and it takes a village, right, to raise kids. And-
[Speaker 3]
A- absolutely. And-
[Speaker 2]
... you know, having this knowledge is, i- is great.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah. And, and it's great to cr- uh, it, it's great to cross paths. Uh, you guys taught me some things tonight, and, uh, and I'm gonna adhere to them and use them. And, uh, I really, really appreciate your time. Um, and your... I, I appreciate... I mean, because not a lot of people talk about this. It's not a sexy topic, you know? Uh, people don't tune in to your, your brain health and wellness, uh, section, you know, too often, uh, especially with boring neurologists. So hopefully, we brought a little spice to it. And, uh, and let- let's, let's, let's watch out for our kids. You know, let's watch out for their brain, uh, health. And, uh, uh, we don't... You know, we, we had Dr. Amen. Uh, he's a, a, a board-certified psychia- uh, psychiatrist, and he's w- very, very popular and, uh, written 21 bestseller books. And, uh, he, he... W- the one thing that we, we preach is you don't... he preaches you don't have to settle with the brain you have. You can make it better, all right? So in, in the education for the, my NFL breth- brethren,
[Speaker 3]
you might be dealing with
[Speaker 3]
bad stuff from repeated head impacts, but there's hope.
[Speaker 3]
There's hope. You don't have to take, you know, uh, you don't have to take drugs and alcohol to deaden the pain. You don't ha-- I mean, and it's real. The pain's real, because y- you kinda, you kinda, "Am I going psycho? Am I going cuckoo? What's go- what's wrong with me?" You know? I, I, I, I...
[Speaker 3]
Kerry Blanchard,
[Speaker 3]
New York Jets. Did you know, did you know he was diagnosed with CTE?
[Speaker 2]
The kicker?
[Speaker 3]
The kicker.
[Speaker 2]
No, I didn't.
[Speaker 3]
But what, but, but what did he do in college?
[Speaker 3]
He was a strong safety missile, missile pa- practice squad guy and used his head.
[Speaker 3]
Nobody knows that. And he was diagnosed with, like, stage 3 CTE. And the last 10 years of his life, he was... Kerry was a sweet, wonderful, caring, quiet, passive individual, and he started doing things that he should have been... His son kicked him out of the house. He should have been kicked out of the house, the things he was doing. But if he had realized he was dealing with,
[Speaker 3]
if it was CTE, whatever, he was dealing with repeated head impacts,
[Speaker 3]
there, there's a chance. When, when I went... 47 years old, I, I told you my brain chemistry went crazy. I started having that unbridled rage. I used to yell at my daughter, my 13-year-old daughter, at the top of my lungs, and, "You're gonna listen to me," with jugular veins popping out. "You're gonna listen to me that I'm..."
[Speaker 3]
Acting a fool. And if I hadn't figured out 6 months later in Boston University what CTE is or what repeated head impacts, what they can cause,
[Speaker 3]
I wouldn't have said, "Oh-
[Speaker 3]
If,
[Speaker 3]
if I...
[Speaker 3]
If, if I'm not... If it's not organic to the point where I can't make a cognitive decision to walk out the front door, I'm screwed. Can I do that?
[Speaker 3]
Can I do it? 3 times it took me. I felt myself going 0 to 60 red line, and it, it only takes a 2nd, and I felt it coming, and I walked out the front door. 3 times. The third time, my daughter said, "Yo, you're just, you're just ignoring me, and you're not facing it," and then, uh, and then you know what?
[Speaker 3]
As I'm walking out the door, I'm like, "You don't wanna... You don't want me in here right now.
[Speaker 3]
I gotta go out and take a breath." You know what? Those rages went from once a week to once a month to once a quarter to once every 6 months. Now I only get it once in a while, uh, m- maybe once a year when somebody is road- r- is really, really ticking me off and I'm having a bad day on the road.
[Speaker 3]
So, there's hope. There's hope, there's hope, there's hope. Um, you got the, the brethren of the NFL, you don't have to succumb to it. You can live with it successfully for years. But you gotta eat right, you gotta live right. You, you, you don't... You, you can't drink. You can't smoke, smoke dope consistently, because that will screw you up even worse. That'll make your brain...
[Speaker 3]
There's plenty of research on that. But
[Speaker 3]
you, you, you can't self-medicate. You have to take... You... The discipline that we had to make it in the NFL, I was o- I was o- for, for, for 11 years, I was one of 240 guys in the world that played defensive line.
[Speaker 3]
If I was disciplined enough to do that, I have to find out... You have to, for your family's sake and the people, the, your loved ones around you, you have to find a way to eat right, sleep, find out i- if your magnesium... Your, your, your, your magnesium is so important to your sleep, and sugar takes your magnesium away. So, sugar, if you're eating those Reese's Peanut Butter Cups like I love, you're, you're, you're, you're depleting good chemicals in your body that actually help you sleep well. And if you don't sleep well, you're screwed. Just ask, ask Reggie White.
[Speaker 3]
So,
[Speaker 3]
you gotta, you gotta take care of yourself. You have to be as disciplined as you- we were getting into the league.
[Speaker 3]
You gotta be disciplined if you wanna live a n- a... if you wanna live a productive life and be, be a, a,
[Speaker 3]
a, a, a, a shining star to your family and, and, and, and be a productive person in society. You have to.
[Speaker 3]
If you don't,
[Speaker 3]
y- you know, it just... Oh, sorry. Got on my, got on my soapbox.
[Speaker 2]
It's all good, Paul. All good. Again, we, we appreciate your time tonight. Again, the Head Rush podcast, um, headrush.com, um, or headrushpodcast.com, I believe is your, is your website.
[Speaker 3]
Yes. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Um, and, uh, and go check it out and reach out to Paul with any questions or, or just continue the conversation. So, Paul, thanks again. You have a great evening, and hopefully we'll, we'll talk soon.
[Speaker 3]
Thank you, guys.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 3]
And, and my, my father was a preacher, so I guess I probably preached at you for about 5 minutes there. Sorry.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's all good, man. It's all good, Paul. It's all good, really, truly.
[Speaker 3]
All right.
[Speaker 2]
I appreciate you.
[Speaker 3]
You, you can edit it. All right, guys. Appreciate everything.
[Speaker 2]
You got it.
[Speaker 3]
Bye-bye.
[Speaker 2]
Goodbye.
[Speaker 2]
There you go. At least now you're muted. So, as, as, as, uh, as Vince, uh, looks to take care of the mic, um, but really just an, an unbelievable session with Paul. Really appreciate his time tonight. Uh, lot of things being thrown out there for parents to, to, to, to noodle on, right? And, and, and really what it comes down to is your kids are your life. Take care of your kids. Don't be afraid of a coach. Look for signs. If you see something that's going on in your child's life or your spouse's life, go get checked out, especially if you're an athlete. Um, there's nothing wrong with that, right? You, you wanna figure it out before it's too late, right? And so, um, just a great job by Paul. Really appreciate his time tonight. Again, the headrush, uh, podcast.com. You can also get, uh, find Paul on, um, Facebook at, um, the, the Head Rush podcast, um, and check him out. Like he said, go look him up. Friend him on Facebook, send him a note if you want more information. Um, so
[Speaker 2]
just...
[Speaker 1]
That wa- that was good. That was good. Uh, perfect time. Um, great show. Great guests. Obviously, uh, having his own podcast, he, he is, uh, not afraid of the microphone, right? Um, and, but, you know, facts and facts matter, right? So this wasn't just an opinion. He was able to, uh, bring, bring some good information to us. Um,
[Speaker 1]
yeah, it was interesting, you know, the, the reaction and, you know, I think you have to respect, especially as a former player, probably not wanting to go in too much detail about some of the current or, or former players, right? Respecting privacy and respecting the brotherhood and everything else like that. We're, we're afforded that opportunity, right? So we can make some of those statements. I can tell you, and, you know, we've said it time and time again, Tua, you need to stop, right? You just need to stop.
[Speaker 1]
He talked about it, if you think about it, without mentioning the name. He talked about the repeated concussions, and we talked about it, right? You had it-
[Speaker 1]
They can say what they wanna say about it back. You had the concussion, you turn around and you had another one. And he talks about the dangers of the second one.
[Speaker 1]
Where's Roger? He said it. Where's Roger calling down to say, "Get him out of the game"?
[Speaker 2]
Well, and that's why-
[Speaker 1]
The-
[Speaker 2]
... uh, we've talked about it, right? It's almost like depending on the game and the importance, sometimes they buzz down and get a player off the field, and sometimes they don't. And you're like, "How come that person didn't get buzzed to get off the field?" I, I mean, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that that guy got his bell rung p- pretty darn good.
[Speaker 1]
You know, a- and that was something... There was so much... It was so fast-paced. There was so much that, that, you know, I wanted to ask or comment about. Um, a few years back, a few years back, they were hitting that button like, like it was going out of style. "Get this guy out. Get..." You know, whistle being blown. You know, referee saying, "Oh, you got a call. You gotta go to the sideline." It still happens,
[Speaker 1]
but not at the same rate that it was happening before.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I, I think-
[Speaker 1]
The-
[Speaker 2]
... it's about the quality of the game, right? If, if you're taking out a top player that could be out for a series or 2 as they're going through it,
[Speaker 2]
um, it, maybe it hurts the game, you know, about that, about that money, right? It kind of always .
[Speaker 1]
And, and it goes, goes back to that. That's right. That's right. Well, uh, that, that was awesome. That was awesome. Stevie D, we still got some work to do here. Um, we're, we're gonna try to get this in. Um, you know, we have a few people that are hanging around, and we appreciate you. Uh, if you stayed for the whole show, um, obviously you can, uh, catch replay or catch any segment of, uh, tonight's podcast. You can go to our YouTube channel, uh, OW Sports Network, or you can go to our website, owsportsnetwork.com. Uh, and then you can go onto our podcast page that has all of our, uh, previous podcast episodes. Be able to watch it and, you know, leave some comments. Um, and then I do think, uh, what we're gonna do is create a library on, on the, on the homepage, right? We're bringing on people who have written books. Stevie D, you and I have got to write our books. They may not be football related, but we gotta write our books. Um, but we'll have a library section, right? So that you can click on that link and it... whether it takes you to Amazon or to Barnes & Nobles or whoever, right? We wanna be equal and fair. Um, not everything's for you, Jeff Bezos. Um, but
[Speaker 1]
ha- have a section where if folks wanna buy the books, right? They, they can go buy Derek's, they can go buy, uh, Paul's, and, uh, hopefully others that we bring on the show, 'cause this is season 9, baby. So you never know what you're getting season 9. Uh, but, you know, we'll, we'll make it available to them. Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
I just want people to know that
[Speaker 1]
we did not have our annual Hall of Fame discussion. Usually it's a two-show discussion.
[Speaker 1]
Um, we opted not to because sometimes it hurts us here and here having to say the same thing over and over and over again.
[Speaker 1]
Right? It, it just... I mean, it's like a broken record. And we talk about, you know, the voting committees, and we talk about the players that are good,
[Speaker 1]
but not Hall of Fame. And so we had a look at this year's, right? And so before, Stevie D, before anything got going, there was already controversy.
[Speaker 1]
And that's Mr. Bill Belichick not going in as a 1st ballot, right? So then we, we didn't even make it this far. We didn't even get to Canton if Belichick doesn't go.
[Speaker 1]
I think that was the most asinine thing for a, a voter to say, "Well, you know, he'll, he'll be able to go next year." It's... your job is to vote for this year, not to hold your vote for next year. And I started thinking about something.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
uh, what's... I, I just drew a mind blank. Uh, the, um, Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Speaker 1]
Negro Leagues, uh- ... out of Kan- Uh, no. Out of, out of Kansa- out of Kansas City.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Uh, um, Book, uh, B- O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
Buck O'Neal. Thank you.
[Speaker 2]
Buck O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
Buck O'Neal.
[Speaker 1]
They were going to
[Speaker 1]
have Buck O'Neal go into the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame.
[Speaker 1]
They waited, I don't know how long and why they waited so long,
[Speaker 1]
and then he passes. His opportunity to go into the Hall of Fame was gone because he passed, because people made dumb decisions, selfish decisions along the way.
[Speaker 1]
Now, I'm not hoping or wishing or trying to push anything on Belichick. Belichick was a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I don't like him 'cause he was for the enemy, right? Even when he was in the NFC, you were my enemy. A- and then, of course, you go to that place up north. But still, I have to respect what you did. I have to call it what it is. You are a Hall of Fame head coach. You are.
[Speaker 1]
And for somebody to take their vote and say, "Well, I'll wait till next year," what if between the time of that vote and the time of the next vote, something happens? And now you have cost him the opportunity to be able to enjoy it, to be able to share it, and to go through all of that because you wanna vote for somebody who, for 15 years, wasn't deserving to go in in the 1st place, and you're gonna throw a vote away.
[Speaker 1]
This is why the Hall of Fame really irritates me.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. You know, I- I'm not gonna add anything to that, 'cause y- your and my thoughts are, are, are right lock, stock, and barrel. It, it is, it is unbe- it, it is unbelievable. You know, I, d- look, you made a great point, 'cause life happens and you never know, and you rob people of that opportunity that have earned that right to walk across that stage.
[Speaker 2]
It's... And that's what's so weird about voting, right? Because you have, "Well, if I don't vote here, we know X amount of people are gonna vote, so I wanna try and get this person up." But, uh, at the end of the day, I think you hurt your credibility as a voter, because no matter what you're thinking,
[Speaker 2]
your vote says that person wasn't a Hall of Famer.
[Speaker 2]
And, and, and so when we talk about, "Well, you can only have a max of 5 people that go in the Hall of Fame," or in Major League Baseball, I think the most you could really have is 3, the way they do their percentage, right?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
Sh- d- you've said it so many times.
[Speaker 2]
If you're a Hall of Famer, you're a Hall of Famer, right? And it shouldn't matter that we can only allow 5 people to go in. If that year 8 studs are Hall of Fame worthy, they all should go in. So what? The ceremony's a little bit longer than, than it needs to be? Right? But you're, you're robbing or making people wait when they've earned it, all because of silly rules. Silly rules. That, that's, uh, to me, that, that's how I feel. And, uh, you know, and Deion Sanders said, you know, "And sometimes people get in the Hall of Fame and it's not deserving." Right? And he says, "Well, maybe in the Hall of Fame you should have, you know, the platinum," right? A- a- and stuff. So, you know, he made some really good points about the Hall of Fame. And, like, I don't begrudge people
[Speaker 2]
who've made the Hall of Fame. I just... And you and I, I think we're, we're pretty close in this thinking. Like, we know there's probably about 3 to 6% of the people maybe that probably shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, right? But I also think there's a little bit larger list of people that should be in the Hall of Fame that are not there,
[Speaker 2]
right? For whatever reason, right? They, they weren't well-liked in the media, right? Look, we all know it's payback 'cause Bill didn't, didn't love the, the media-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 2]
... and didn't give him anything, and it's payback. Maybe it's payback for some of the, the s- coaching scandals that he was a part of. Maybe that, that was part of that. But it is a sin that Bill is not in the Hall of Fame.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 2]
He thinks of things in the game, when you listen to him speak, and former players that have played for him, that never would have thought of looking at that from that angle,
[Speaker 2]
and turned out to be, uh, the reason why they won a football game. Because the things that he taught, "Hey, we have to look for this little piece in the game, and when they do it, we're gonna be prepared." He always had his team prepared to play. And whether you love him or hate him, there was very rarely did a team that he coached got blown out.
[Speaker 1]
He knew the rule book better than the people that wrote the rule book.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, just a quick Jets story, right? We're playing him, and he's laughing on the sideline because he knows a loophole to run the clock down where he's, he'll take the five-yard penalty, but he took 40 seconds off the clock 'cause he didn't have to worry that, uh, this strange law rule that allowed you a 2nd opportunity to run the 40 seconds off on a punt play for a delay of game penalty. I mean, the guy just is a machine in every aspect, and, and it, you know, went against us. But watching him laugh, to try to hold the laugh because the Jets didn't know the rule, and he was able to get extra 40 seconds off the clock, the guy really is a genius in this sport, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. It doesn't make any sense.
[Speaker 1]
So let, let's look at who went in. Um, we talk about the smell test. This is what we talk about. We'll start with Drew Brees.
[Speaker 1]
I'm okay.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
I, I don't think there's any debate there. Uh, Larry Fitzgerald.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, no debate.
[Speaker 1]
I'm, I'm good. Okay.
[Speaker 1]
Adam Vinatieri.
[Speaker 2]
Don't have a problem with Adam Vinatieri. The, the game-winning-
[Speaker 1]
Same here
[Speaker 2]
... kicks that he had in bad weather, in the Super Bowl, unmatched by any kicker in history with those big time kicks.
[Speaker 1]
Okay. Roger Craig.
[Speaker 2]
I have a problem with Roger Craig. Uh, I do. Um, I'm sorry to hear about his medical condition. Didn't know he was fighting dementia. Uh, he came out, you know, the past weekend and kinda told everybody about it. Uh, feel sorry for him. But I never looked at Roger Craig as that
[Speaker 2]
Hall of Fame type running back. He did something special in his career where he had the 1,000 receiving, 1,000 yards rushing, 1st back to do that in a season. That's special. But overall, I looked at his career, I, I didn't see it, me personally.
[Speaker 1]
I don't disagree with you. Um, a- again, now is where we get...
[Speaker 1]
Now is where we get to the point in the show where we talk about the, um,
[Speaker 1]
Hall of Very Good and the Hall of Fame, right? The platinum, right? And we, we've offered the Hall of Fame an idea to create another wing, a smaller wing, that is rotational, right? Because, uh, the excellence that someone may have throughout their career, we... you can only hope that the generation that comes after or the generation after that, that there's gonna be somebody that's going to eclipse that. And when that happens, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you di- you, you didn't have a great career. Only means that, you know,
[Speaker 1]
for to be in this wing, it's the best of the best, right? And so then you, your time is at its run. Um, when I look at Roger Craig- I think of Roger Craig and I think of Tom Rathman. I think of Montana. I think of the 49ers. That, that's what I think of, right? Um, I don't think of Hall of Fame, though.
[Speaker 1]
I don't think... Yeah, he, he was a dual threat. Excellent. Great, right? And y- you did some really good things.
[Speaker 1]
But to say that you are the best of the best, the cream of the crop for that gold jacket, I don't see it. And, a- and I'm not trying to shame him at all. I, I just don't see it. Um,
[Speaker 1]
so then we go to the next one of the smell test,
[Speaker 1]
and I have a bigger issue here, and that's Luke Kuechly.
[Speaker 1]
I'm gonna tell you right now, and I'll go 1st, Stevie D.
[Speaker 2]
Please.
[Speaker 1]
Luke Kuechly is not a Hall of Famer.
[Speaker 1]
There are other linebackers that have meant more from a Hall of Fame perspective, in my opinion.
[Speaker 1]
And so, as I started to try to build my argument for Luke Kuechly not being in the Hall of Fame,
[Speaker 1]
I used Pro Football Reference, right? And in Pro Football Reference, they have the
[Speaker 1]
Hall of Fame monitor. If anybody's ever been there, you know what I'm talking about. And it basically compares you and says where, um, you stand compared to other players at that position, and they have a criteria. They, they use the number of, uh, Pro Bowls, uh, how many AP, um,
[Speaker 1]
uh, 1st team, 2nd team, et cetera. Uh, they also use, um, Rookie of the Year. They use Super Bowl, and then they use your stats.
[Speaker 1]
And then I started this, you know, and I look and I see Luke Kuechly. I think he's 4th or 5th on the list, right?
[Speaker 1]
And then, Stevie D, I started to pause for a minute. I said, "Wait a minute.
[Speaker 1]
This is what we did when we were doing our stats for our top 10." Right? We started to rank these guys and we said, you know, "How many of these awards have you had?" But let me explain to everybody. Stevie D and I have been open and transparent about how we came up with our top 10 list and the arguments that we had. Friendly arguments, but the arguments that we had. Because there were some cases where we didn't feel that it was justified to use certain criteria because it was a team criteria. So just because you're on a team that has made it to the Super Bowl or has won the Super Bowl,
[Speaker 1]
why am I giving you extra points over another guy who's got Dave Craig as his quarterback?
[Speaker 1]
Right? There, there's a problem there. This guy is struggling, but he is dominating at his position, but he loses the bonus points that helps put you up on the list.
[Speaker 1]
You also have a... You have to look at the popularity of the selections, right? What's the household name? What's the name that the league is trying to pump up? And we all know that they, they try to find certain players that they want to kind of put on a mantle and they wanna showcase. I'm not saying Kuechly was that, but he was on a relatively new franchise,
[Speaker 1]
right? And so you wanna kind of show them off and you wanna talk, "Hey, here's this great guy that's coming in," compared to a guy that's been on a team that's been around since dirt was created, right? Not that he played back when there was dirt, but the team has. And the team has been mired in just... I'm not even gonna say mediocrity. I mean, they've just been bad for the longest time. And he can't be the savior, but he's just a face there. So this guy is always gonna get his flowers. So now you start adding in the Pro Bowls. You look at the stats, and they're very comparable. But when you look at the Hall of Fame monitor value,
[Speaker 1]
the disparity in there, Stevie D, is m- just huge. Huge. And so the person I'm talking about, obviously, is Chris Spielman, right? Chris Spielman just was coming out of Ohio State, just a linebacker of linebackers, right? He was your middle linebacker.
[Speaker 1]
And when you saw Singletary and you said, "Well, you're passing the torch," it went to Spielman 'cause that's who you wanted, especially in a 4-3. That's who you wanted. But when you look at the stats, Spielman really has better stats than Kuechly.
[Speaker 1]
But those stats only get a value of one, where these other ones, whether they be a popularity contest or a team contest, all of a sudden have a value of 2. This guy is forever gonna be up here. But I'm stuck in Detroit. No offense to our Det- our Detroit Lions fans out there, but I'm stuck in Detroit with Wayne Fontes? And the best thing that you gave me was Jerry Ball, but that was at the end?
[Speaker 1]
Something's wrong, man. Something's wrong. And it's not right for these guys who should be in the hall of very good to be able to get a gold jacket. Now, to the Luke Kuechly family, congratulations, right? I know it's a big honor and, and congr- you know, you, you got, you got in, right? Can't take it away. Just like Terrell Davis, can't take it away.
[Speaker 1]
But something's wrong here, Stevie D. Something is wrong.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, man. I, I think you said it- I, I'm with ya. Uh, we- we've talked about this a, a lot, um, la- last week, uh, more prior to the podcast, 'cause they just went into the Hall of Fame. So I would say my memories, I'm getting older. I can't remember what day we talked about it. Maybe it was Monday or something. I don't remember. But it, it, it's, uh... I, I put Luke Kuechly with Zach T- um, Zach Thomas of the Dolphins.
[Speaker 2]
Hall of very good. Um, again, he was a fast linebacker. Luke made plays. Not, not taking anything away his successful career, but when you're going over that threshold to the Hall of Fame,
[Speaker 2]
what is your differentiator? And I, I don't, I don't see him as that d- differentiator at the position. I, I just, I, I, I, I didn't, I didn't see it. So-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 2]
... again, we are tougher than most with the Hall of Fame grading. We are. Just like in the top 10, we- we're hard on it.
[Speaker 2]
It, it just, I didn't see him making that type of difference or, or, or, or making that huge impact on the game, um, at that position. So...
[Speaker 1]
And you, you know, I... Ev- every team, every organization has somebody like this, right? I can speak to my Bills, and I know you can speak to your Jets, right?
[Speaker 1]
I will give you a name like a Daryl Talley,
[Speaker 1]
right? And I use this as an example in a conversation I had.
[Speaker 1]
Daryl Talley
[Speaker 1]
was screwed from the day he started.
[Speaker 1]
The reason why I say that, he didn't come in highly heralded.
[Speaker 1]
He didn't come in with, with the headlines flashing, "West Virginia linebacker Daryl Talley coming to Buffalo." But what did he do? He rolled up his sleeves, or actually in his case, pulled down it, pulled down the, the, the sleeves, put the helmet on, and went to work. And went to work where he was fundamentally sound, went to work where you could rely on him down after down after down. You didn't think he was taking a play off.
[Speaker 1]
But unfortunately, by not coming in with all of those accolades,
[Speaker 1]
every single year we're scratching our head, "How did you not make the Pro Bowl? You're one of the best linebackers out there." Y- you wanna look at tackles, you wanna look at tackles for losses, you wanna look at sacks, you wanna look at interceptions, right, from a linebacker pos- you got screwed.
[Speaker 1]
And then when your career ends
[Speaker 1]
and you're using this barometer-
[Speaker 2]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... and, and this group to say, you know, "This is what's gonna help put you into that other class," it's not right. A- and it's not right. And just something has to be done if you want us to appreciate all that is in there.
[Speaker 1]
It's special to be in the Hall of Fame. It's sp- it just sounds special. It's special. But if you... And I, I wanna be careful, 'cause I don't want to
[Speaker 1]
make it seem like I'm speaking ill of those that have made it, but some of those, y- not... Your career wasn't deserving of being in the special one. That's why I want, that's why I want another league. So I'll leave it at that.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
All right. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I guess we have our last words.
[Speaker 1]
I guess we have our last words. So, um, uh, Stevie D, take it away.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, you know, this week, uh, Quinton Williams, the former Jet defensive tackle, uh, he got paid from the Dallas Cowboys, right? Uh, and I love Q. I'm, I'm happy for him and his family on a three-year, 105.9 million dollar contract extension. But at hi- at his age and that dollar value, I just look at it and I say, "Man, what are we doing, Dallas?" Right? Like, you traded Micah
[Speaker 2]
to the Packers
[Speaker 2]
when you could've kept a generational player for a little bit more than what you're now paying Quinton Williams, right? Now, it's unfortunate what happened to Micah and he got injured, so maybe Dallas is looking at it like, "Well, we're, we're ahead." But at the time, you got rid of Micah, um, and, and you revamped that D line and you brought in Kenny Clark on that trade with Micah, and now you have Quinton Williams. I just look at it and say, "Man, that's a lot of money for an older defensive tackle that when you look at him on paper, he doesn't blow away, doesn't blow away the sack totals."
[Speaker 2]
Right? I mean, he's a sure tackler. He's a gamer.
[Speaker 2]
But he doesn't have those statistics year in and year out that, to me, looks at it, "I am a 32 million dollar a year player." Uh, or more than that, actually. It's, what, 35 million dollars a year or something like that? Um, so, a- again, happy for Q. I just look at it and say, "What are you doing, Dallas, again with all that money?" He was already under contract. I can't say that he's earned a 8 million dollar a year raise based off of the statistics he's had the last couple years. So it's just really shocking. And you wonder why Dallas has salary cap problems. Just very bizarre. Jerry's operating in his own world, right? You, you don't pay Dak. You don't pay CD Lamb when you should. You wait. It costs your salary cap, what, 19 million dollars because you waited to sign those 2 guys when everybody else got paid? Not a genius move. And now you're offering up a new contract when there's really no need to.
[Speaker 2]
Uh, it's very bizarre in Dallas. So happy for Quinton, confused by the Cowboys, um, and so that's my, my, my final word this week.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
my final words is, goes to Orchard Park, New York. Um, so we just had the red and blue practice. Um, whole nother topic about that. Uh, but what, what happened was that season ticket holders- ... had the opportunity to go into the new Highmark Stadium, state-of-the-art. Everything that you could imagine, uh, fresh, clean, all the anticipation. And as they go in there,
[Speaker 1]
uh, fans are marveling at everything that they could see, how the field... And are you marveling 'cause it's brand new, or are you marveling because it truly is something nice? Well, when you've been in a stadium since 1970,
[Speaker 1]
I think it was '73, '74, uh, and now it is 2028, or 2026, I'm sorry, and you've looked around and you've seen all these other franchise get a stadium, and you're like, "When's it our turn?"
[Speaker 1]
And then you've drank the Kool-Aid for the 17 years, and then you go to the stadium and you sit down. Are you really enjoying what you're seeing? Well, Stevie D, you're not really enjoying what you're seeing for some folks.
[Speaker 1]
But,
[Speaker 1]
big but, so the videos and the pictures have come out of the obstructive view seating, uh, throughout the stadium. There are areas, and there's no denying it. If I'm sitting in some of these seats, I have a railing, I have a glass bar or a glass pane, sometimes a double glass pane, sitting in front of me. I have part of a staircase submit wall that is blocking my view of a corner of an end zone.
[Speaker 1]
But before everybody starts to lose their mind,
[Speaker 1]
and yes, we do drink the Kool-Aid, Terry Pegula, and you know this. That's why you charge the outrageous prices for the concession stands , right? But before everybody loses their mind,
[Speaker 1]
let's just take a deep breath. Okay? And the reason why I say take a deep breath is because I do not believe,
[Speaker 1]
and as much as we, we come down on the owners of the NFL franchises, I do not believe that a organization would purposely
[Speaker 1]
design something
[Speaker 1]
and mislead people all the way through.
[Speaker 1]
Not to mention, fans had the opportunity to go and tour when, when they were going to get their season tickets. So if somebody that was getting a season ticket was sitting in an obstructive view,
[Speaker 1]
Stevie D, they would've known this months ago.
[Speaker 1]
And on top of that,
[Speaker 1]
if I am a good businessman, now I know I'm gonna try to squeeze every penny,
[Speaker 1]
I am not gonna charge you the same value that I would charge somebody sitting that did not have an obstructive view.
[Speaker 1]
Which means you knew that the view was obstructed. If that's your seat, you knew the view was obstructed, more than likely you got it at a reduced rate. It's just what it is what it is. That's business.
[Speaker 1]
And if you didn't know, then you would have a, some level of an out clause, whether it be for your PSL, whether it be for your season ticket, what have you. So they, a- and more than likely, they're not gonna give that back, so they'll work with you on the se- on the price of the overall season ticket. So all this noise that we hear that is coming from YouTubers and Instagram posters and media that's throughout, that's all hate.
[Speaker 1]
It is all hate.
[Speaker 1]
And I want Bills fans and Bills media not to be
[Speaker 1]
so emotional
[Speaker 1]
and so scared that somebody is talking bad about you.
[Speaker 1]
And let, let's let the dust settle. Let's get through this 1st season, please. Right? After we get through the 1st season, if there is some validity to it, if Terry Pegula and the rest of the Bills organization tried to charge an obstructive view seat the same price that there was a seat next to it that did not have that same obstruction, then yes, then, then we need to hold them accountable.
[Speaker 1]
But until we have the facts, let's appreciate what is now standing as Highmark Stadium for the Buffalo Bills. And hopefully,
[Speaker 1]
just maybe,
[Speaker 1]
this new stadium is part of what will help transform this franchise
[Speaker 1]
into the Super Bowl. Maybe. Let's hope so. Those are my final words on that, Stevie D.
[Speaker 1]
All right. Uh, awesome show. Um, can't say enough, Stevie D, to be able to hook this one up, get Paul on. Um, just all the things. And there's so much that I wanted to ask you, Steve . Uh, things that he, he would bring up, I'm like, "Oh, well, what about," right? "And what about..." Because it, there's just so much that goes into it, things that we talk about.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Um, and, and then he would start to, um, you know, make either overtones of that or speak directly to it, right? And you just wanna just jump in, but he was saying so much good stuff, you didn't wanna stop him either, right? Just let it keep rolling. And, and it was really good. So, uh, definitely, uh, go check out his book. We're gonna put the link on the, uh, on our, on our website, owsportsnetwork.com, so that you could see it there and go ahead and, uh, make that purchase. And, you know, we'll have Derek's book, we'll have Paul's book, we're gonna have Stevie D's book. You know, all 3 of those books are gonna be sitting there side by side. So you make sure you check those out. I'm not sure the link of Stevie D's, where that one's gonna go to you just yet, but, uh, pre-order. You can pre-order it now, right? So
[Speaker 1]
so we'll, we'll get that one ready to go.
[Speaker 2]
It'll ship June 31.
[Speaker 1]
Shipping TBD. Yep, yep.
[Speaker 1]
All right, but that's gonna wrap this one up. Uh, it was a long one. Uh, we appreciate everybody who, who hung in there. Um, it definitely was a long one. I'm a little tired now, but that's all right. That's all right. It was well worth it. Uh, we look forward to some future shows. We have some really good guests that are coming up, uh, in the future. Also, there's a, uh, a couple of more people have, have signed up or registered for the Fantasy Football League. Need to get this out. If you haven't signed up, make sure you go to owsportsnetwork.com. There is a image for Fantasy Football. You make sure you click on that. Read the little description and then go ahead and sign up. Make sure you get in, because when all 12 spots are full, that's it. That's it. And then we're gonna have a live draft, so we're gonna have... Part of the show is gonna be the live draft. We will have some prizes at the end, or maybe I should say prize at the end. So, you know, Stevie D's the one that's making all this money, you know, endorsement deals and the whole 9. So he's got NIL money coming in, name, image and likeness, uh, and that's coming his way. So, you know, maybe he'll make it rain for you. But, uh, aside from that, no, uh, we will have a prize for the winner of the Fantasy Football League. So make sure you get yourself registered. Uh, can't wait for the draft. At least if I fall in last place, I got somebody to blame this time. So I- I'm, I'm all excited about that. So there are a lot of good things happening in, in, uh, 2026. So for my co... Oh, go ahead, Stevie D. Or-
[Speaker 2]
I was just gonna say good luck, everybody, this weekend. May e- all your teams get out, all your players get out healthy. Enjoy the weekend's games as, as we're... The full slate is back in action, so enjoy.
[Speaker 1]
That, that's right. It, it's officially official, as one of, uh, our Twitter posters likes to put out. It's officially official. All right, so for my co-host, Stevie D, I'm Vince. We'll talk to you soon.
[Speaker 0]
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