Keith Atkinson: Hello everyone and welcome to the Growth Diary. guest today spent nearly 40 years at BDP serving as chairman before becoming the UK's BIM ambassador for growth. So he's now consulting at Richard Saxon, great to have you, welcome.
Richard Saxon: Hello, thanks.
Keith Atkinson: So at the very beginning you joined BDP fresh out of Liverpool University in the early 1960s and then stayed for nearly 40 years, four decades inside one organisation is quite something.
Richard Saxon: Well, first of all, it became my firm. I was made a partner within 11 years of joining. And in that first period, I worked on a fabulous collection of buildings. So I was enjoying myself. And then it became my firm. But it's an amazing firm. It's global practice. It's engineers, architects, landscapers, interiors. It's in 10 or 15 locations. And so it wasn't as if I stayed in one place or did only one type of thing. I basically worked all over in Germany, Japan, Russia. And I was given sabbaticals to do bits of writing I wanted to do and did a couple of books that way. So it's... it wasn't as if I was tied down in any way.
Keith Atkinson: in 2011, you were appointed UK BIM ambassador for growth and help persuade government to mandate building information modeling information for public sectors, which is just an amazing achievement. So what did that process look like from the inside?
Richard Saxon: Well, things always start with enthusiasts and the of BIM, which I'll call it for short, really swam into view with that name in about 2003. And the group of activists, included people in my firm, sort of worked on it and worked on the government. did a building for Roche Pharmaceuticals, which came in budget and under time. so much so that they had a cut off part of the brief that they didn't think they'd be able to afford and they gave they said well you saved us that money we'll go back and build it now and it seemed to be a perfect example of the of savings it could achieve so what happened in the late 90s was couple of studies on how the industry might be reformed the appointed a chap called Paul Morrell as their Chief Construction Advisor in 2010 to steer them on how they might pick up on all of the things that these reports suggested. One of the that came out of that was the idea of a BIM mandate for public sector building. It was announced in 2011 for a 2016 start giving us five years to get used to the idea and they formed a task group and the steering group put me on the steering group and they also asked me to do a research report called growth through BIM growth was the word then it's as it is now how will this increase the UK's GDP and so I did that in 2013 And would say that the top flight of consultancy and contracting firms were very ready for it. Most notable contractor was Laing O'Rourke who dived right in and started to do things that others simply couldn't do. The Cheesegrater building in the City of London is probably first example of that where Laing O'Rourke had a BIM model made. of the design really check the consultant's design and then they made it from pieces prefabricated off-site which all fitted with no surprises when they arrived which was one of the things that happens and so was their proof of concept It was all done very quickly by comparison with what it would have cost to build it conventionally so that's how it got going by 2016 it should have been... everybody should have been ready, of course they weren't. But it was ⁓ good, was a rolling start.
Keith Atkinson: Looking at Deploi, and that was founded to essentially help architects and construction clients transition into using digital methodology. So 10 years on, how far has the industry actually come? How far does it still have to go, do you think?
Richard Saxon: Well, they do surveys each year of how far the industry thinks it's using digital working methods, and that's a broader category than just BIM, but nevertheless, everybody claims to be using it. Well, I say everybody, it's more than 75%. But these are self-declared results, and when you actually look at what they're doing, they're almost all using just parts of it. this is quite frustrating really because they're not the most out of it and the customers are not getting the most out of it. But equally the of what digitally aided construction is has evolved considerably during period. It's become much more sophisticated it's been relabeled information management, now we've got the Internet of Things and we've artificial intelligence and we've got digital twins and all sorts of other ideas which are all linked the majority of people are only up to their ankles they're not really in the water yet.
Keith Atkinson: And you've said the biggest bottleneck is building owners and not necessarily architects or contractors. is that so persistent? What does it cost them when don't engage?
Richard Saxon: Yes, when you see it's very difficult to demonstrate what it costs them, but they do appear to think it's something that designers and contractors do, that they can just sit back and let it happen. Which is missing the point really, because the idea is to provide them with information which will enable them to make better decisions. So what information is it that they need? ⁓ well, that will involve a bit of thought. We haven't had time for that bit of thought. It is rather an extraordinary situation that when you ask the client what they need, they basically say nobody's ever asked us that question before. We need a building that satisfies our requirements. Yes, but what does that mean for each stakeholder and in terms of what evidence at what points? Because that's really the basis then on which the team produces that stuff, not just a pile of drawings. but a comprehensive piece of information that meets all those stakeholder requirements that they have every reason to make the decision go or no go or alter it a bit quickly. Because again, clients hover when they receive each report as the project proceeds. Do we it? Don't we like it? Is it okay? If they've been clearer about what would satisfy them, then... ⁓ they would get much quicker progress and everybody would just keep rolling.
Keith Atkinson: Looking at Grenfell, a tragedy. We know what happened there. And that in turn accelerated what's called the golden thread requirement. that's a lifelong record for every building. How has that shifted Deploi's work and what does it mean for owners who've never really had to think in that way previously?
Richard Saxon: Well this has really been an enormous shot in the arm for information management because the between the people who build a project and the people who then take it on and run it has been enormous. Most buildings, even for the same organisation, is completely different team, runs it when it's a building project ⁓ from the that run it when it's an asset that's being used. And that break, that silo has had to be softened and melted. And we're getting ⁓ a lot of say housing associations, for example, who build stuff and then have to take it on for its life. What do they need when they're, if going to do the golden thread, if they're going to know exactly how that building was made and be able to keep it up, keep that information base going. That's an enormous to this whole idea. You may have heard that there are problems in getting through building regulations now. think created two gateways. One to actually show that the building will pass the gateway and secondly that it is built exactly like that and therefore can be allowed to start being used. And those are both tests of the quality of the information. that's really jacking things up. It's slowing down at this point, but the speed of those gateways is gradually improving. But will mean that we do have real replicas, digital replicas of buildings so that we can manage them successfully.
Keith Atkinson: You mentioned in our previous call that approximately 20 % of all construction spend goes on fixing errors and the AI powered site scanning is already helping close that gap between comparing what was built against what's planned overnight essentially. So where do you feel that now AI genuinely transforms construction?
Richard Saxon: Well that scanning example is something which has been a quick win because rather like Hawkeye on the tennis court you can actually follow a model in time instantaneously of the work that's being done each day and compare it to what the model says should have happened that day. That's a really good quick win. There's a lot of when contractors have good and know how they normally do things digitally, then they can get tremendous increase in insight as to how to overcome errors and gaps and make sure they don't lose time. But the reduction in errors is probably the biggest single way in which they increase profit. There's a lot of hype, however. is hype over imagery and the ability to generate images of future buildings. It's as is idea that you can automate the design process. You can automate things that make it less labour intensive, but not the actual creative process. There are some modular building types, however, that can put together on a configurator, rather like if you buy a kitchen from Ikea even a car these days where you get a thing on screen and you decide what features you want and build to suit. So there's some progress of that sort and you could probably design a school now based on the configurator because schools are made of predictable parts. So ⁓ Yeah, it's coming and it's coming quite quickly but there is a tremendous amount of hype.
Keith Atkinson: Hmm, it certainly is. decades of championing digital construction, pretty much every level, the industry still lags though. So what keeps you going? What would you actually suggest a step change?
Richard Saxon: Well, yes, it's a long time. It's 25 years since I got a CBE for services to architecture and construction, which was ⁓ because been working for the previous 10 years on industry reform. So it is slow, but small steps can be very rewarding. And the fact that the industry has taken so long means that it's been spared from job losses that might have... otherwise taken place. But on the other hand, it's not attracting recruits. The want modern indoor digitally based working. They don't want paper based outdoor work. And changes possible where the clients build a programme of projects rather than constantly changing teams and where clients from project to project. and have a relationship-based approach to who they work with. is probably the most civilized place on the planet for construction They make much money that they can afford to innovate. They have large R&D departments. And all of that's based on stable client-designer-contractor relationships, which seem to be over here. My old firm BDP is now owned by Japanese and we have really that we've always had that mindset, probably that's one of the reasons we ended up there.
Keith Atkinson: You've got 60 years of pattern recognition this industry. So what does built environment look like 10 years from now ⁓ if everything well? And what does it look like if the industry carries on what it's always done?
Richard Saxon: I think the answer to that is it will do both. Parts of the industry will be transformed and parts of the industry won't be. We have a 700 billion programme of infrastructure work to re-equip the country with transport and energy and housing. We have the net zero and circular economy challenges where we've got to build very differently. to way we always did. We've got to look after all of the huge stock of buildings that we've got, not just concentrate on the new ones. The good outfits are going to rise to that opportunity and they're going to use digitally assisted working methods to attract the young people who otherwise wouldn't be in the industry. So those that rise to it are going to have a time in the next decade. Those that don't are going to run out of people because they won't have the ability to attract them they won't have the capacity and their costs will rise so the demand for them will fall. But we're always going to have this enormous spread, you know, at one end we're still going to have people repairing thatched roof on cottages and other people doing three-dimensionally printed buildings. It's going be... It's biggest industry in the country, it's what people just don't realize, that it's nearly 20 % of our gross domestic product is on the whole business of creating and operating buildings and buying selling them as well. It's so it's invisible. It's like ⁓ the elephant you can't really see because you're too close to it.
Keith Atkinson: Richard, decades inside the industry gives you a tremendous perspective that very few people can And that's a genuinely brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. I wish you the best.
Richard Saxon: Nice talking to you, Keith.
Keith Atkinson: Thank you so much.
Richard Saxon: Hello, thanks.
Keith Atkinson: So at the very beginning you joined BDP fresh out of Liverpool University in the early 1960s and then stayed for nearly 40 years, four decades inside one organisation is quite something.
Richard Saxon: Well, first of all, it became my firm. I was made a partner within 11 years of joining. And in that first period, I worked on a fabulous collection of buildings. So I was enjoying myself. And then it became my firm. But it's an amazing firm. It's global practice. It's engineers, architects, landscapers, interiors. It's in 10 or 15 locations. And so it wasn't as if I stayed in one place or did only one type of thing. I basically worked all over in Germany, Japan, Russia. And I was given sabbaticals to do bits of writing I wanted to do and did a couple of books that way. So it's... it wasn't as if I was tied down in any way.
Keith Atkinson: in 2011, you were appointed UK BIM ambassador for growth and help persuade government to mandate building information modeling information for public sectors, which is just an amazing achievement. So what did that process look like from the inside?
Richard Saxon: Well, things always start with enthusiasts and the of BIM, which I'll call it for short, really swam into view with that name in about 2003. And the group of activists, included people in my firm, sort of worked on it and worked on the government. did a building for Roche Pharmaceuticals, which came in budget and under time. so much so that they had a cut off part of the brief that they didn't think they'd be able to afford and they gave they said well you saved us that money we'll go back and build it now and it seemed to be a perfect example of the of savings it could achieve so what happened in the late 90s was couple of studies on how the industry might be reformed the appointed a chap called Paul Morrell as their Chief Construction Advisor in 2010 to steer them on how they might pick up on all of the things that these reports suggested. One of the that came out of that was the idea of a BIM mandate for public sector building. It was announced in 2011 for a 2016 start giving us five years to get used to the idea and they formed a task group and the steering group put me on the steering group and they also asked me to do a research report called growth through BIM growth was the word then it's as it is now how will this increase the UK's GDP and so I did that in 2013 And would say that the top flight of consultancy and contracting firms were very ready for it. Most notable contractor was Laing O'Rourke who dived right in and started to do things that others simply couldn't do. The Cheesegrater building in the City of London is probably first example of that where Laing O'Rourke had a BIM model made. of the design really check the consultant's design and then they made it from pieces prefabricated off-site which all fitted with no surprises when they arrived which was one of the things that happens and so was their proof of concept It was all done very quickly by comparison with what it would have cost to build it conventionally so that's how it got going by 2016 it should have been... everybody should have been ready, of course they weren't. But it was ⁓ good, was a rolling start.
Keith Atkinson: Looking at Deploi, and that was founded to essentially help architects and construction clients transition into using digital methodology. So 10 years on, how far has the industry actually come? How far does it still have to go, do you think?
Richard Saxon: Well, they do surveys each year of how far the industry thinks it's using digital working methods, and that's a broader category than just BIM, but nevertheless, everybody claims to be using it. Well, I say everybody, it's more than 75%. But these are self-declared results, and when you actually look at what they're doing, they're almost all using just parts of it. this is quite frustrating really because they're not the most out of it and the customers are not getting the most out of it. But equally the of what digitally aided construction is has evolved considerably during period. It's become much more sophisticated it's been relabeled information management, now we've got the Internet of Things and we've artificial intelligence and we've got digital twins and all sorts of other ideas which are all linked the majority of people are only up to their ankles they're not really in the water yet.
Keith Atkinson: And you've said the biggest bottleneck is building owners and not necessarily architects or contractors. is that so persistent? What does it cost them when don't engage?
Richard Saxon: Yes, when you see it's very difficult to demonstrate what it costs them, but they do appear to think it's something that designers and contractors do, that they can just sit back and let it happen. Which is missing the point really, because the idea is to provide them with information which will enable them to make better decisions. So what information is it that they need? ⁓ well, that will involve a bit of thought. We haven't had time for that bit of thought. It is rather an extraordinary situation that when you ask the client what they need, they basically say nobody's ever asked us that question before. We need a building that satisfies our requirements. Yes, but what does that mean for each stakeholder and in terms of what evidence at what points? Because that's really the basis then on which the team produces that stuff, not just a pile of drawings. but a comprehensive piece of information that meets all those stakeholder requirements that they have every reason to make the decision go or no go or alter it a bit quickly. Because again, clients hover when they receive each report as the project proceeds. Do we it? Don't we like it? Is it okay? If they've been clearer about what would satisfy them, then... ⁓ they would get much quicker progress and everybody would just keep rolling.
Keith Atkinson: Looking at Grenfell, a tragedy. We know what happened there. And that in turn accelerated what's called the golden thread requirement. that's a lifelong record for every building. How has that shifted Deploi's work and what does it mean for owners who've never really had to think in that way previously?
Richard Saxon: Well this has really been an enormous shot in the arm for information management because the between the people who build a project and the people who then take it on and run it has been enormous. Most buildings, even for the same organisation, is completely different team, runs it when it's a building project ⁓ from the that run it when it's an asset that's being used. And that break, that silo has had to be softened and melted. And we're getting ⁓ a lot of say housing associations, for example, who build stuff and then have to take it on for its life. What do they need when they're, if going to do the golden thread, if they're going to know exactly how that building was made and be able to keep it up, keep that information base going. That's an enormous to this whole idea. You may have heard that there are problems in getting through building regulations now. think created two gateways. One to actually show that the building will pass the gateway and secondly that it is built exactly like that and therefore can be allowed to start being used. And those are both tests of the quality of the information. that's really jacking things up. It's slowing down at this point, but the speed of those gateways is gradually improving. But will mean that we do have real replicas, digital replicas of buildings so that we can manage them successfully.
Keith Atkinson: You mentioned in our previous call that approximately 20 % of all construction spend goes on fixing errors and the AI powered site scanning is already helping close that gap between comparing what was built against what's planned overnight essentially. So where do you feel that now AI genuinely transforms construction?
Richard Saxon: Well that scanning example is something which has been a quick win because rather like Hawkeye on the tennis court you can actually follow a model in time instantaneously of the work that's being done each day and compare it to what the model says should have happened that day. That's a really good quick win. There's a lot of when contractors have good and know how they normally do things digitally, then they can get tremendous increase in insight as to how to overcome errors and gaps and make sure they don't lose time. But the reduction in errors is probably the biggest single way in which they increase profit. There's a lot of hype, however. is hype over imagery and the ability to generate images of future buildings. It's as is idea that you can automate the design process. You can automate things that make it less labour intensive, but not the actual creative process. There are some modular building types, however, that can put together on a configurator, rather like if you buy a kitchen from Ikea even a car these days where you get a thing on screen and you decide what features you want and build to suit. So there's some progress of that sort and you could probably design a school now based on the configurator because schools are made of predictable parts. So ⁓ Yeah, it's coming and it's coming quite quickly but there is a tremendous amount of hype.
Keith Atkinson: Hmm, it certainly is. decades of championing digital construction, pretty much every level, the industry still lags though. So what keeps you going? What would you actually suggest a step change?
Richard Saxon: Well, yes, it's a long time. It's 25 years since I got a CBE for services to architecture and construction, which was ⁓ because been working for the previous 10 years on industry reform. So it is slow, but small steps can be very rewarding. And the fact that the industry has taken so long means that it's been spared from job losses that might have... otherwise taken place. But on the other hand, it's not attracting recruits. The want modern indoor digitally based working. They don't want paper based outdoor work. And changes possible where the clients build a programme of projects rather than constantly changing teams and where clients from project to project. and have a relationship-based approach to who they work with. is probably the most civilized place on the planet for construction They make much money that they can afford to innovate. They have large R&D departments. And all of that's based on stable client-designer-contractor relationships, which seem to be over here. My old firm BDP is now owned by Japanese and we have really that we've always had that mindset, probably that's one of the reasons we ended up there.
Keith Atkinson: You've got 60 years of pattern recognition this industry. So what does built environment look like 10 years from now ⁓ if everything well? And what does it look like if the industry carries on what it's always done?
Richard Saxon: I think the answer to that is it will do both. Parts of the industry will be transformed and parts of the industry won't be. We have a 700 billion programme of infrastructure work to re-equip the country with transport and energy and housing. We have the net zero and circular economy challenges where we've got to build very differently. to way we always did. We've got to look after all of the huge stock of buildings that we've got, not just concentrate on the new ones. The good outfits are going to rise to that opportunity and they're going to use digitally assisted working methods to attract the young people who otherwise wouldn't be in the industry. So those that rise to it are going to have a time in the next decade. Those that don't are going to run out of people because they won't have the ability to attract them they won't have the capacity and their costs will rise so the demand for them will fall. But we're always going to have this enormous spread, you know, at one end we're still going to have people repairing thatched roof on cottages and other people doing three-dimensionally printed buildings. It's going be... It's biggest industry in the country, it's what people just don't realize, that it's nearly 20 % of our gross domestic product is on the whole business of creating and operating buildings and buying selling them as well. It's so it's invisible. It's like ⁓ the elephant you can't really see because you're too close to it.
Keith Atkinson: Richard, decades inside the industry gives you a tremendous perspective that very few people can And that's a genuinely brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. I wish you the best.
Richard Saxon: Nice talking to you, Keith.
Keith Atkinson: Thank you so much.
