From Kitchen Table to £Multi-Million Exit: Simon Morton's 18-Year Journey to Employee Ownership

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Welcome to the Granite Business Podcast, the podcast for serious entrepreneurs who want
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to level up as leaders, transform their team and scale their sales.
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All right, welcome along to the Granite Business Podcast.
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I am Paul Avins and we are in for a treat today.
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So let me frame this up because it's going to be a heck of a ride, heck of a home versation.
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And if you are an entrepreneur currently working at home and you're kitchen table, this
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is going to be something to inspire you.
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If you are an entrepreneur, building a team right now and you want to scale your business
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and scale your team, this is going to be perfect for you.
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If you are a stressed out tired, slightly exhausted entrepreneur who wants to sell their
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business and get the hell out, this is also perfectly framed for you as a conversation
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about the true grown-up business journey.
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So it's my absolute pleasure today to welcome to the show.
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One of my good friends, somebody that I've known for, I think, 18 years now I met him
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in my second year of when I started coaching, I'm sure that will come up as a story.
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This is the man that Microsoft turned to when they'd help with PowerPoint, right?
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This is that guy.
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This is the man.
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But I knew him when he was starting out in his kitchen table and we'll talk about that
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and he's gone on to build a multi-million-pound business.
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He is, as I call him, the Prince of PowerPoint, the sensation of storytelling without question.
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Please welcome to the Granite Business Podcast, Simon Morton, my good friend.
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How are you?
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I'm very, very good.
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Thank you for having me.
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Did you like that, Prince of PowerPoint?
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Too much.
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Do you know what?
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The business cards are getting reprinted.
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Fantastic.
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So listen, man, we're having this conversation about the time that your brand new book drops,
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which is really exciting.
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And I think, for me, I want to talk about the book better, which is all about really helping
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people understand how you exited your business, how you completed the grown-up business journey.
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Well done, by the way, congratulations.
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Something not a lot of people manage to do.
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You actually go through that whole process of start, grow scale, and exit.
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So like less than 18% of business owners ever get the whole, you know, go through that
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whole journey.
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So I want to talk about that.
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But take us back, if you will, to like, what made you decide to start your business?
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Because you were working for somebody else on the road, weren't you?
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Right.
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So why did you decide to risk it all and start?
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To take us back to like, what the heck, what calls that?
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I even see is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
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And if I knew them, what I know now, I probably wouldn't have made that big leap.
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So I was, you're actually, I was working for a FinTech in the SEMS Valley.
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And it was a wonderful, wonderful job.
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I had, I had a senior role, works with friends, traveled a lot, had some amazing adventures
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with some amazing people.
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But it was very much a living out of a suitcase a lot of the time.
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It was a completely full on, truly immersive sort of way of living.
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And I loved it.
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I really, really did.
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But when Lisa and I, Lisa and my wife and I decided that we wanted to try to start a family
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and fortunately did, that was when I thought, mm, okay, am I going to become one of those,
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one of my colleagues, one of my friends who, you know, who is saying goodnight to their
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kids on a Sunday morning, Sunday, Sunday evening, and then trying to reacquaint themselves
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with their family again on the Saturday morning, because they didn't see them.
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They didn't do bath times.
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They didn't do storage time already of that stuff.
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And that was kind of scary in the fact that we've gone all of this way, made this huge
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decision as a family to start a family and didn't want to miss out.
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So at that time, I'm kind of being semi-flipant when I say naivety, it was really very naïve
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and in truth.
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You didn't know what you didn't know at that point.
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You just got a whole bunch of optimism and a desire to do something different, right?
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I mean, that's pretty much it.
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Exactly.
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And we also, Lisa, Lisa, yeah, at the time as a pharmacist.
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So if I crashed and burned, frankly, we could still pay the mortgage.
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Lisa would go out and, yeah, and earn that money and I could stay at home and be a stay
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at home dad.
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It was all very kind of, okay, there are risks, but I'm not putting everything on the line.
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Yeah.
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And I went into it really, yeah, sort of based on the fact that there was a need that
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I'd spotted, which was that the business world I lived in and the business world that
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most of us lived in was awash with presentations.
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Yeah.
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98% of them were appalling, not just in terms of the obvious death by PowerPoint, but,
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yeah, just there were too many of them.
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There was no focus to them.
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The whole thing was a real bloody mess.
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And that was the opportunity I thought to cut initially the opportunity was on the
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dab hand at PowerPoint.
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I think the gazillion PowerPoints that are actually the prince of PowerPoint.
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That's what you are.
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Yeah.
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And the principle PowerPoint as is never established and I'll go away and I'll make
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them look a bit nicer.
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Right.
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The reality was, I wasn't much of a designer, actually, I'm a bloody awful designer, but
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I was able to cut through the noise and go, well, well, why have we got a 30 slide presentation
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at the first 10 slides or about who you are, how big you are, what your growth has been
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over the last five years and all that sort of stuff and nothing to do with the need
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of the audience, nothing to do with the problems you're there to help solve.
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And it was real obvious stuff to me.
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That's the difference.
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It's obvious to you, but I mean, like let's just do this now because I think if we don't,
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you know, people listening to this are going to get you a hang of second, I do PowerPoint
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all the time.
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So in your experience of seeing stuff and you've seen hundreds of thousands of presentations
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over the time that you built Eiffel, right?
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So Eiffel presentations is over the time that you as an organization build that.
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Give us like the top five most common mistakes people are making when they make a presentation
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in internally or externally.
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What are the five things that people, you just go, I can't really see like how are we
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still doing this five things, right?
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Like what from your vantage point, what would they be top five in no particular order?
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The first one is they believe the presentation is about them.
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It's not, it's about their audience and the audiences need.
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You reflect your audience.
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There's a phrase we use a lot at Eiffel call saying the audience is the most important
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stakeholder.
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It's all about there.
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It's not about you.
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And so, yeah, they don't put themselves in the shoes of the audience.
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The other thing that's who is, and often when I'm speaking at conferences around this
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topic, I say, what's the first word that leaps to mind when I say the word presentation?
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And it's not audience.
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It's not message.
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It's not call to action.
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It's none of those things.
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It's PowerPoint.
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It's the most peculiar thing in the world is this piece of software, which is brilliant
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by the way, an amazing piece of software, an amazing business tool.
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But nobody says, you know, writing, if I say blog, the people that go word, yeah, people
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don't so immediately say, you know, when I say budgeting, they go Excel, they think about
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what are we looking to achieve and all those things.
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Bizarrely, PowerPoint's got this grip over this that the word presentation and they
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immediately leaps to that.
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So step away from PowerPoint, everything, you and I have worked together for clients,
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we worked for each other.
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It always starts with a piece of paper.
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So go analog before you think about going digital.
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So put those things down, people again will go, I've got a deck that I did two weeks
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ago.
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I'll just take that and tweak it a bit.
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That's not what you're looking to do.
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Go right back to basics.
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But do anything that's because, I mean, like I absolutely agree and look, I've been
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guilty of this.
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And I think one of the biggest things I was guilty of fairly early in my career before
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I met you inside really understanding storytelling was what I call data dump.
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I think people do a data dump with PowerPoint and they go right, you know, I mean, I was
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coaching a client of mine this weekend.
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We were looking at their training for new franchisees coming in and there was 123 slides
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and I went, well, you hang us again, like, well, this is just a data dump and they go,
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yeah, people aren't, people aren't really coming out of the training and then applying
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what we're teaching them.
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And I said, well, because you're not teaching them, you're just data dumping and hoping
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they remember it.
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And I was like, right, what's the story that we're trying to take them on?
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What's the journey?
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Where, like, what's the emotions we want them to have?
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There's a reason why you walk into a movie theater.
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And I know you guys are brilliant at this in terms of going, what's the journey, right?
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Like map out the journey first and then build the slides to support the journey and
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the narrative rather than go, I think I've done it too.
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Look, here's a deck I use that's just grab that change 10 things and I can tick it off
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my to-do list.
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And I think, you know, I always think if you were to walk out of a presentation and you
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had the opportunity to make seven figures from that presentation, how much time and effort
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would you put into planning it and how much advice would you get from it and everything
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else?
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Whereas I think, you know, most people just go, I've got a presentation to do, I'll give
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it a couple of hours of my time and take something else and change it, right?
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I mean, we tend to go with efficiency over impact.
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I would suggest.
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How do we set it?
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Yeah.
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And what you said there is sort of on that list of five, which is, and when we do training,
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we talk about, you know, presentations are typically a three-legged stool.
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They will have three elements to them.
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They'll have the visuals.
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They'll have the content and then they'll have the message.
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Now, those three things, messages by far the most important because message is the
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thing your audience will remember.
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And as a result, we'll be able to take action from.
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Yeah.
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The fundamental truth.
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The thing that nobody ever really talks about is presentations are designed to prompt
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an action from your audience.
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Yeah.
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It's not just a, here's an information share.
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It's actually, here's an information share to allow you to do, think, act, feel differently.
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Yes.
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And when they don't do that, if it's just, well, I've told them stuff, I've said them
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now, that's where presentations fail.
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So the message is by far the most important element.
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It's also really difficult to nail a good, strong, sticky message that if you share it
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with me, and then I share it with my friend down the pub, that, if that message is strong
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enough, they'll get your message.
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If it's not strong enough, they'll get my version of that message, which will be mangled
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and means that actually nobody's going to pick up the phone, going, I need to speak
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to all the evils about helping develop my business, because I've mangled the message.
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So we've got to work on creating a really strong message.
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The real benefit of having a strong message, I'm off now, you go, you go for it, man.
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Just rock on.
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Once you've got that strong message, which is great, because it drives the action, you
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also acts as a beacon for the thing that actually really screws up presentations, which
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isn't designed.
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You can get away with an ugly looking presentation if the message and the content is right.
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What you can't get away with is a beautiful looking deck with too much content in there.
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So message acts as a beacon that basically says, now I've got that message, I'm only going
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to share the content that supports that message.
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Otherwise the rest of it is just noise, it's going to get in the way.
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So you've got this wonderful beacon, you then only share the content that's supporting
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that. And that then gives you the basis of a strong presentation.
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And yet, knock yourself out and make it look pretty if you'd want to, but it's not that
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important.
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Yeah.
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And it sounds like a strange thing to say for somebody that's made a very good living
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from presentation design over the years.
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But what we'll always say to Microsoft and Adobe and KPMG that we worked with all of
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my dancers, some of the startups that we do is if your audience leaves going, wow,
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no slides great, we've screwed up because it's not about the slides, it's about the
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message, it's about the call to action, it's about what they take away and act upon from
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that presentation.
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Right.
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So I mean, like, I think it's, I think it's easy to forget what is the call to action.
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I'm making this presentation for a purpose.
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What is it that I want people to do?
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Is it to buy something?
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Is it to, you know, connect with me afterwards?
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Is it to book a second and follow up meeting?
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Like, like, I always think you've got to start with what's the end, what's the next step?
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What's the next logical step of this, this presentation is trying to get us to, right?
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And sometimes people say, you know, I'm trying to get it to them to buy and you're like,
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well, I know, that's actually three steps down and the next logical presentation step
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is for them to book a meeting with you.
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And then you do the selling in a different environment.
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It's not for them to walk out of a 20 minute presentation and sign a check for I underground.
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That's not likely to happen.
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That's, you know, you're, you're going to come off as pushy if that's the outcome without
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going, let me just lead you to the next logical step.
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And I think that, I think it's true.
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And I can, look, I can show you it with sales funnels too, right?
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I can show you really ugly sales funnels with great compelling copy and a great call
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to action that would outperform really beautiful sales copy, sorry, really beautiful funnels
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with a mediocre message and a fairly weak offer or call to action.
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And yet the, you know, and I've done it.
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I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on really great sales funnels that didn't convert
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and then did a really kind of throw up a really crappy funnel with a video and made a compelling,
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you know, confelling conversation and offer and then suddenly sold out the sold out the
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event or the training.
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And it's like, oh, God, there I go again.
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It's like, but I think it's, why do you think we get hooked by design?
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Is it just because we, is it a part of our brain that likes because it excites us to
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think is it that?
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Why do we get, why do we get hooked by that?
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I think we like to look, we like to look nice.
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We like to look good.
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It's part of that presentation element of presentation is you're putting forward your best,
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you know, the best version of yourself.
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I also think that it's fun.
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PowerPoint is a beautiful way to kiss goodbye to a productive afternoon because, oh, look
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at that.
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I can make a bounce.
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I mean, I'm not going to use that.
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But well, look at making bounce and look at the transition and Microsoft do a wonderful
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job in there helping you through that process with AI recommendations on various things.
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It's just yet another sort of avenue for you to pursue and to really kind of go down
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the, you know, down that funnel and you just got to be careful.
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Go back to the basics, you're the presentation, the slides aren't, the slides are visual punctuation
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to what you're saying, you're the presentation.
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One of the best presentations I've heard people talk about their own personal experience
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is where the projector died and they just went, oh, okay.
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I've had that.
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I've had that with a laptop that blew up on me at the beginning of a training session
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and I had to do the whole thing on flip jobs and the feedback was, it was one of the best
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training sessions I've ever done.
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And I was like, really?
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Yeah.
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Because it was into, because it wasn't off the, the PowerPoint and it'd be lucky I had
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them printed out.
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So I knew what I was to.
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I'll always do that anyway.
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It's a backup of the whole drive blue.
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And I was like, oh, and I was like, I'll just go, go, go, go old school off a flip job,
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which is fine.
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No problem at all.
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But like that, the feedback was like, that was way more engaging and exciting than a PowerPoint.
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And I think there is that, there's that hypnotic, and I know we're off topic, we'll get
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back to your story in a second, but there is that hypnotic piece as well with PowerPoint.
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It's a bit like watching TV, right?
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Like it is like, there is a, I'm passive, I'm not active, which is, you know, I think
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a lot of people run the risk of people tuning out because of that or picking up their
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phone now, which is probably the biggest challenge for a presenter, right?
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I mean, like right now, the biggest challenge is, how do you keep attention?
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I would suggest, like if you were out for 20 minutes, how, how, when I've gone addiction
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to holding my phone every three minutes, how are you going to stop me picking up my phone?
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Yeah.
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I mean, one of the, and it's been there since the year dot, one of the most powerful features
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within PowerPoint is the B button.
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And now you know this, which is, you know, the channel away, you've got the slide behind
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you.
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If you hit B, basically the slide turns black.
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And it's an incredible, incredibly powerful way of getting the audience back in the room.
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Yeah.
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Because you're right.
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They get kind of hypnotized by whatever they're looking at.
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Worst case scenario is there's a bunch of bullet points up there.
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So they're reading those, not listening to the presenter or they're kind of semi listening
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to the presenter and semi reading the slide, so they're not really in either camp.
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The whole thing falls, falls down.
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Hit B, get them back in the room, focus on, you know, that engagement between you, the
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presenter and you, and them the audience, that connection is what it's about.
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Yeah.
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You talk a lot about humanity, human engagement, no matter what field you're in, no matter
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what you do.
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That's presentations.
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That's all it is.
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And yeah.
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It's a conversation.
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Don't you think?
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Don't, don't.
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So I, sorry, you just triggered me for a second.
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I think, I think when, I think people think that presentation is a one way dialogue.
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IE, it's between me and an audience who's not coming back the other way.
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For me, it's a, it's not a presentation.
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It's a conversation.
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That's how I've always viewed trainings and everything I've done for years now is it's
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a conversation between me and you.
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Therefore, there are two parts, there are two, two relationships in this, in this,
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there's me up here, but there's you there.
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And if you don't feel you can interact, you're tuned out because, well, I'm just getting,
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I'm just getting one way information.
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It's a date to dump.
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It's not a conversation.
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The minute I realize it's a conversation, I'm going to pay attention, right?
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I'm going to pay more attention.
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So we'll come, we'll come back to, we could do a whole different podcast on presentation.
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Exactly.
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There are loads of people listening to this who just went, what, I'm sorry, you can press
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the B button and it blacks out the entire screen and they've just realized that they, again,
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and I think the other challenge with something like Microsoft and we can have a conversation
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about how AI is disrupting this whole thing anyway, right?
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Like, because that's interesting, but I want to go back to, I want to go back to your
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story.
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Like, like, so you saw this niche, this opportunity and you thought, yeah, I'm pretty
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good in that, in that, I can, I can sell that.
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Did you think that was that what you thought and like, because, did you think, yeah, I
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could sell that, is that, and then you went and got your first customer, I mean, how
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did that work?
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It was exactly that.
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It was, and I did, I did the standard thing, which is, okay, I'm going to, I'm going
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to sort of ease my way into this.
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So had the full, you know, the day job and then of an evening, I wrote my first website
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awful looking thing using, you know, sort of various tools that I could find had no idea
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how to actually, I created it.
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Fantastic on my PC, getting the bugger into the, onto the internet, that was another
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week, just kind of figuring out how to FTP something.
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So that was a real kind of iterative process.
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But yeah, it was early days, it was very much just dipping my toe in and it was kind of
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a side hustle as much as anything.
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Right.
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There were, there was one particular moment, which was, oh, I'm onto something here.
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This could be great.
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And it was a, it was a big international hotels group.
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And they, they had a, they called me up, how they found the website, I don't know, even
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having looked at the website, they still called, and I had two mobiles at the time.
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And my, my, I full mobile rang and had to go outside the office and present.
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I'm just an amazing and pretended this whole, yeah, sort of put this whole facade up.
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And it was somebody saying, look, we've got a presentation.
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We've worked with an agency and it's still not great, still not working.
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I said, well, email it over and I'll have a look.
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He said, well, I can't email.
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It's too big.
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I'll get it biked over to your studio.
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Well, we have no studio.
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We have, we have home.
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So I remember calling Lisa up going, there'll be a career turning up soon.
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Can you make the house look like it's a creative hub?
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What are you talking about?
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Not that the career would even care anyway.
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Yeah, the career is not going to care, is it?
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Yes.
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So I eventually got home and there is this CD as it was back then and I popped it into
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my steam driven laptop and eventually it kind of caught up and this incredible presentation
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appeared on, I mean, it looked extraordinary.
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Lisa was looking at my shoulder going, wow, you've never done anything that good.
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I was not thinking it did.
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It's the vote of confidence, Lisa.
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Exactly.
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We're both in this together, right?
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And, but as I went through it, beautiful though it was, it was obvious where the problems
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were and it was the first five pages were pictures of beautifully shot, gray, austere looking
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sort of the board of directors and these are the people you get to work with.
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Well, that's got to go.
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And so I went through a whole list of the things, pulled together a list, then agreed to
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meet up with the guy, hot tip to anybody doing this is make sure that you ask enough questions
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about the meeting because I went in thinking it would be a really nice, because the guy was
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lovely on the phone, he said, well, if you're free on Tuesday, pop in, yeah, we'd love
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to see you.
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I thought, okay, it's going to be a cup of tea meeting, share some ideas and we'll see
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where we go from there.
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I got there about 10 minutes beforehand and he said, oh, great, thanks for being early.
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The other guy's just finishing up and then you're on, I thought, well, what would you
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mean I'm on?
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He said, they're waiting for you to present your ideas and I was expecting this lovely
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informal conversation and I walked through and all of those grey pictures of the, yes,
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they were all there in a horseshoe, I'm thinking, okay, this is who I've got to present to
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and I just thought, well, yeah, infra a penny and I said, look, and I hadn't really prepared
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a presentation, they were expecting a big pitch, none of that was in place.
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I said, look, before I, before I share my presentation, thinking I haven't got one, can
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I share with you some feedback, first of all, and those tops of grunts and what have
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you.
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And so look, the problem is, this presentation, beautiful though it is, I can see you've
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invested a lot of time and money in making it look beautiful, it doesn't talk to your
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audience and it's not working.
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I said, frankly, lovely pictures, but all of those pictures completely useless.
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Maybe stick them at the back as an appendix if you need to, that you can link to but don't
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lead with them.
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00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:03.080
And then there was another comment and another comment who's like, Tom Boyd, I think I am
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dying here.
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And then the biggest, scariest bloke in the middle of the horseshoe, kind of slammed his fist
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down.
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He said, and it's a podcast, I can swear, I mean, you can, he goes on YouTube, but he didn't
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necessarily swear.
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We can imagine what he's about to say, roughly.
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And for that, finally, somebody's figured out what's wrong with his presentation.
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You're absolutely right, when can you start?
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And so I just gathered up everything that I hadn't presented and kind of went outside
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and kind of collapsed slowly in the car afterwards.
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But it was, for me, it was, that was the, oh, I've got something here, which is I can talk
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to business people, I can talk to senior people, I've been doing it for years in my previous
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role.
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If I'm telling them about something that is obvious to me, but nobody's really had
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the guts to say, why are you banging on about it?
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Myself.
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This is about your audience.
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That's going to drive the action.
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That's going to deliver the results.
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And just having the way with all to have those big boy conversations was grown up, they're
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grown up, they're grown up conversations on they, right?
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So, like for me, I think when organizations get to a certain size or entrepreneurs get
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to certain size in the business, everybody just tells them what they, what they think they
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want to hear.
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Because people have this whole, I don't want to, I don't want to tell truth to power,
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I don't, I don't want to be honest about something in case it leaves my job.
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And suddenly they get surrounded by yes people and they are crying, you know, I have this
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a lot where people were saying to me, I had a conversation with a client of mine, we just
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took on recently six million pound business and I went in and basically said, this, this
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is rubbish, this, this, this, this doesn't make any sense.
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This bit, why are you even doing it that way and why have you just spent 50,000 pounds
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on that?
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That's ridiculous.
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That's not what you need right now.
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And he's like, oh, thank God somebody's actually calling out the rubbish with the stuff
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we're not seeing.
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And I'm like, yeah, because, and actually his team knew that it's the difference was
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that he wasn't listening to some of his team because his team weren't telling him and
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always just tune them out because they ease around them all the time.
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And I think, you know, there's a grass on, I've never heard you tell a story by the way.
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So first thing, brilliant story.
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00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:08.000
Secondly, I think sometimes we can, we can forget that the, it's about value.
459
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.760
It's not about going in and going, let me show you a really great presentation.
460
00:24:10.760 --> 00:24:13.520
It's about look going in and go, what is the problem you're trying to solve?
461
00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:15.120
Let me talk about how I would fix it.
462
00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:17.120
If that sounds good, I'll help you fix it.
463
00:24:17.120 --> 00:24:20.840
And, you know, I think if you're, if you're in that startup mode and you're trying to
464
00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:25.080
figure out, okay, okay, can I, can I find a problem in, is there a product market fit?
465
00:24:25.080 --> 00:24:26.920
And it's like, well, great, go and talk to five people.
466
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.200
And if they've got that problem and you can solve it, see if they'll pay you to fix it.
467
00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.160
And if you can do that, then you've got something, right?
468
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.800
Then if you can do that, then go, okay, right, this is worth me pursuing.
469
00:24:35.800 --> 00:24:38.760
If you can't sit with five people and solve a problem and they won't want to give you
470
00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:41.240
money for it, then don't waste your time.
471
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:46.240
And I think, you know, I think that's, but the language clue by the way there just for
472
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.080
anyone listening was when he said to you, oh, yeah, well, you know, come in.
473
00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:50.200
We would love to meet you.
474
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.040
The weak he was a key there was just going to be here.
475
00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:54.040
That was the language bit.
476
00:24:54.040 --> 00:24:55.040
Would you mean we?
477
00:24:55.040 --> 00:24:56.040
Who else is going to be the room, right?
478
00:24:56.040 --> 00:24:57.040
That's all I was thinking.
479
00:24:57.040 --> 00:24:58.040
Yeah, exactly.
480
00:24:58.040 --> 00:24:59.040
Okay.
481
00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:00.040
So it's an order of three for the coffees.
482
00:25:00.040 --> 00:25:01.040
There's one I was thinking.
483
00:25:01.040 --> 00:25:02.520
But, you're absolutely right.
484
00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:08.600
It's being able with humor and humility to have those grown up conversations and you're
485
00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:10.880
not going in there and smashing a place up.
486
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:11.880
Absolutely not.
487
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.080
And so help me understand why you've done that.
488
00:25:15.080 --> 00:25:19.000
And why you're stuck, too, I think there's that whole, you know, we're not
489
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000
chatting to people.
490
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.440
And if you built a six million pound business, if you built a two million pound business,
491
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.200
you are in a very small minority of entrepreneurs who have achieved it.
492
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.320
It's massively respect, huge respect.
493
00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:31.600
If I can help you refine some stuff that's going to get you to 10 million quicker, rather
494
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:36.320
than you trying trial and error, which is incredibly painful and experience and time and
495
00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:40.360
money and effort, then I'm doing you a disservice if I don't, if I don't tell you about that.
496
00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.880
If I don't try and go, look, I'm trying to condense down time.
497
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:45.800
So like, that was you at the beginning.
498
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.960
And when did we, we met, how long have you been trading when we met?
499
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.360
Probably a year, 18 months tops.
500
00:25:52.360 --> 00:25:56.600
And was that was, was that when you realized this actually could be a real business at this
501
00:25:56.600 --> 00:25:57.600
point?
502
00:25:57.600 --> 00:25:59.400
Was it when you thought, hang on a second, I think I'm on to something.
503
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.200
Was that the point when you went, I need a plan?
504
00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:07.400
Was that, was that what I think I kind of gone beyond that this is viable.
505
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:13.280
So, yeah, sort of, yeah, I handed the car, the company car keys over and, yeah, the
506
00:26:13.280 --> 00:26:16.600
whole, you know, speech, you know, thank them for everything.
507
00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:23.680
So, I was on my own and I was in that phase where I hadn't learned to say no to the right
508
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.800
things because I was saying yes to everything because my God, you want to spend money with
509
00:26:27.800 --> 00:26:28.800
me.
510
00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:29.800
Great.
511
00:26:29.800 --> 00:26:30.800
Of course, I'll do that.
512
00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:35.400
And I remember going to B&I meetings, which started like seven in the morning, getting
513
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:41.160
there two hours early to work in the car, so I could get the B&I meeting done before
514
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.000
I then went out and did a workshop or whatever it might be.
515
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.280
The hours I was doing were ridiculous.
516
00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:52.960
With now Beth, our eldest, you know, sort of three, four months old, and it was like, you
517
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:58.760
know, sort of, so getting into that, that happened really quickly, I got lucky.
518
00:26:58.760 --> 00:26:59.960
There's no doubt about it.
519
00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:04.920
I found a marketplace where there were a few plays in there that were relatively well
520
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.560
established, but I got fat and lazy so quickly.
521
00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:10.680
So customers weren't being looked after.
522
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:16.040
It was very much putting lipstick on a PowerPoint pig, not actually asking the grown up questions.
523
00:27:16.040 --> 00:27:17.840
So it's like, yeah, it won't make the slides that pretty.
524
00:27:17.840 --> 00:27:20.440
Look, we're really good at it and that was it.
525
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:24.840
And so we kind of hit paid up very, very quickly.
526
00:27:24.840 --> 00:27:29.240
And then there was 12 months of me just running as fast as I possibly could do.
527
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:30.560
But that's what it takes, right?
528
00:27:30.560 --> 00:27:34.280
I mean, like, yeah, people who say to you, you know, I won't work life balance.
529
00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:37.600
I'm like, yeah, great, but not in the first two years, you're not getting that in the
530
00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:38.600
first two years.
531
00:27:38.600 --> 00:27:39.600
That comes later, right?
532
00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:44.040
You can get some of that later, but the amount of energy you have to put in to get to
533
00:27:44.040 --> 00:27:49.040
half a million turnover is, it's like, you know, I should think there was a part of a conversation
534
00:27:49.040 --> 00:27:51.920
you, at least in most of the average, was we set the business up to have more lifestyle
535
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:52.920
with the kids.
536
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.000
And we now don't see you, we see you less than we saw you at the beginning, right?
537
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.200
Which is, which is always that entrepreneurial challenge of I started the business because
538
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:01.800
I wanted more time and balance.
539
00:28:01.800 --> 00:28:04.600
And then it seems to consume everything I'm doing.
540
00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:07.600
And I think it's a question I've often said to people, it's like, when did you know
541
00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:12.520
the business had taken you hostage, you're not in control of this thing anymore.
542
00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:13.520
It's running your life.
543
00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:16.600
And it's like, and I think entrepreneurs end up feeling like that sometimes, right?
544
00:28:16.600 --> 00:28:17.600
100%.
545
00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:19.960
And yeah, so fast forward a few years.
546
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:25.480
And yeah, there was a little bit of me going, listen to yourself, you're moaning about
547
00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:28.400
the fact that you live in a house beyond your wildest dreams.
548
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.120
Five years ago, you would never have dreamt of living in the house or driving the car
549
00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:35.200
you've got, well, having the disposable income that you've got, we're all of those sort
550
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:36.200
of things.
551
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.760
And you're still bitching really.
552
00:28:38.760 --> 00:28:44.720
And yeah, I think I remember when you and I first sat down together and it was such
553
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:50.440
a vital part in the growth of the business, that keeping me sane.
554
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:55.200
And I remember saying to you, I've got a devil and an angel on my shoulder.
555
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:00.040
The angel was going, hey, this is about spending time with your newborn and sort of being
556
00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:04.840
the guy that, yeah, that helps with the household chores and grows veg for the family and all
557
00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:07.120
of this kind of really nice new age stuff.
558
00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:10.240
And then the devil's going, you can make a fortune here, make crack on.
559
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.360
And it was, and that was the tug of war that was going on there.
560
00:29:15.360 --> 00:29:21.160
And when you and I first sat down, it was an emotional conversation as much as it was
561
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:25.360
a strategic and planning conversation where finally I had somebody that I could kind
562
00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:28.280
of go, I don't know what to do.
563
00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:33.120
I've kind of painted myself into a corner beyond my wildest dreams.
564
00:29:33.120 --> 00:29:34.120
It's great.
565
00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:39.400
But I can't carry on doing this, this is going to break me and point me.
566
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:43.600
So yeah, we've got emotional quickly when we first spoke.
567
00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:48.120
It often does to be fair because I think, you know, I think when you find somebody you
568
00:29:48.120 --> 00:29:53.480
can have a rule and a real conversation with, it's lonely, it's the biggest challenge
569
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:55.560
of being an entrepreneur is it's lonely.
570
00:29:55.560 --> 00:29:59.000
You get isolated, you become, you know, this is why communities such a big thing for
571
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.240
me and building communities and, you know, supporting a community not just individuals
572
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:08.080
is so important because I think as an entrepreneur, you can get incredibly lonely and isolated.
573
00:30:08.080 --> 00:30:10.680
And in your head, you get stuck in your head.
574
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.040
And that's a very dangerous place to be.
575
00:30:13.040 --> 00:30:16.360
And I think sometimes just the relief of having somebody who isn't, you know, I'm not
576
00:30:16.360 --> 00:30:18.240
going to judge you for way around what you've achieved.
577
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:20.640
Just like, look, you're on your own journey is there's no judgment.
578
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.240
It's just how do I help move you to the next level of thinking.
579
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.800
And I think that there's a question everywhere if you, which is like, I mean, by the way,
580
00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:31.600
I was thinking this before we did this podcast, I have got the mind maps somewhere, but
581
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:35.240
I didn't look at it, but I can still remember the car we wrote down during that planning
582
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:36.800
session that was going to be the dream car.
583
00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:39.960
And I remember what that was too.
584
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:40.960
And the house and everything.
585
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:44.080
Because I think this is the whole thing of you've got to be much more intentional.
586
00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:48.200
I think most of us are not intentional enough with what we're trying to create.
587
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.880
And I think like that sort of that CEO strategy session is about getting, getting clients
588
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.080
to be very intentional about what they're trying to build.
589
00:30:56.080 --> 00:31:00.440
And I think, so how did you, how did you have to level up as a leader?
590
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.880
Like how did you have to, how did you level up as a leader?
591
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:05.880
Because suddenly you had to start building team and stuff.
592
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.640
So what changed in your thinking?
593
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.480
Like what was the, like, talk to me about how you started to level up as a leader?
594
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:12.720
I don't think there was one moment.
595
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:14.480
I think that, that first meeting, you're right.
596
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:20.960
That mind map, I, I, I can remember the car I, and three years later, I had that car.
597
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.960
And, and exactly the right color, and it is exactly the model that I wanted.
598
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.960
And I was, and I've always been a big fan of, I always call it visualization.
599
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:30.960
It's not visualization.
600
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.960
It's what's that when you have a picture of something that you're, you're driving towards what?
601
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.960
Well, I mean, it is a form of visualization.
602
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.960
So I mean, some people call them attraction boards, other people call them vision boards.
603
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.960
There's lots of dates now about the neuroscience about why these things work.
604
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:43.960
It'd be powerful.
605
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:49.960
Back then, yeah, was on the desk, was we living in the really nice house before?
606
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:50.960
Yeah.
607
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.960
That's the thing that kind of drove you.
608
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:53.960
Yeah.
609
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:55.960
It's funny, because people say our manifestation is, yeah, woo, woo.
610
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:57.960
And I'm like, no, no, no, hang on a second.
611
00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:59.960
It was woo, woo, about 20 years ago.
612
00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:02.960
Like, when I started that stuff, I was like, that sounds like a really sensible idea.
613
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:04.960
We should do, we should definitely teach that, right?
614
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.960
And then you go, you have actually then people start manifesting stuff.
615
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.960
And it's not actually that what it is is that your brain's hyperdiled into it.
616
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.960
And then you create, it's actually a process of creation is what it is.
617
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:17.960
But if you don't visualize it first, if you don't get out of your head and put it onto paper,
618
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.960
or put it in a picture and a drawing, and then suddenly allow, allow yourself to go towards it
619
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:24.960
and see opportunities to create it, you don't manifest it in your life.
620
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:27.960
And I think most people don't do that with their business, right?
621
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:29.960
It's like, what do you want it to look like three years from now?
622
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:31.960
And most people don't know.
623
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.960
Well, again, another story, of course, it's stories.
624
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.960
But early days are awful.
625
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:39.960
You'll remember it.
626
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.960
It was a very small service office.
627
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.960
There was just one quite tight room.
628
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.960
I don't remember that.
629
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:47.960
I'd moved out of.
630
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:48.960
Was that with the glass wall?
631
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:49.960
Was that really weird?
632
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:51.960
Where the glass wall was that?
633
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:52.960
This is before this.
634
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.960
This is just outside Oxford.
635
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:55.960
Yeah.
636
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.960
That was a really peculiar shop that sold big sort of plastic bins.
637
00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:02.960
But also if you went to the back, a whole array of sex toys.
638
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.960
It was the weirdest shop in the world.
639
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.960
And I had this service office about it.
640
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:08.960
And.
641
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:13.960
And I had the picture of the house that we wanted to move to, which was in Leicester.
642
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:14.960
And it was Christmas.
643
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:16.960
And there are a few other service offices.
644
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.960
And somebody knocks on the door.
645
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:19.960
It was 23rd or something like that.
646
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:21.960
Something knocks on the office again.
647
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:22.960
We go down the pub.
648
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:23.960
You're going to join me.
649
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:25.960
And I said, no, one of the light.
650
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:26.960
The picture was there.
651
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:27.960
I said, give me an hour or so.
652
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:28.960
And I'll join you later.
653
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:29.960
But I just.
654
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:31.960
Yeah, I've got to get a few bits done.
655
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:32.960
And I like the pub.
656
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:33.960
But it was kind of.
657
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:34.960
No, no.
658
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:35.960
Yeah, we'll do this.
659
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:36.960
So.
660
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.960
They went within about 50 minutes.
661
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:41.960
A phone call came in from a big German software company.
662
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:43.960
And the guy said, oh, wow.
663
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:44.960
You're there.
664
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:45.960
Brilliant.
665
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:47.960
We've got a really important presentation.
666
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:48.960
We need some help with.
667
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:49.960
I didn't think you'd be here.
668
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:51.960
Is there any chance that.
669
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:54.960
You'd be able to work with us over the Christmas New Year period.
670
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.960
Because we need to hit this, you know, in the New Year.
671
00:33:57.960 --> 00:33:58.960
I said, let me.
672
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.960
Let me check with the guys in the studio.
673
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:02.960
That was was just me at the time.
674
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:03.960
Come back.
675
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:04.960
Yes, I think we can.
676
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:05.960
We can make that work for you.
677
00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:06.960
Set it up.
678
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:08.960
Went down to Brackenville, which was where they were based.
679
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.960
They continue to be.
680
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.960
A key key customer of ours.
681
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.960
They've spent millions with us over the years.
682
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.960
And that picture of that house.
683
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.960
Kept me from the pub and missing that phone call.
684
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.960
And that was year three of the business.
685
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:24.960
And really, it's went to that.
686
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.960
And we're still working with them.
687
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:29.960
That's the power of that manifestation stuff.
688
00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:30.960
It's.
689
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:31.960
I am very passionate about it.
690
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:35.960
And we're have shared it with lots of members of the team going.
691
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:37.960
Know what you're doing this for.
692
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:38.960
Yeah.
693
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:39.960
Once you join the journey,
694
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:42.960
have a sense of what the outcome is that you're pushing to.
695
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.960
Once you've got that, what's the next one?
696
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:45.960
Yeah.
697
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:46.960
Yeah.
698
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.960
That is an incredible story.
699
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.960
And sometimes, do you know what I remember?
700
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.960
A bit of a cause I stayed out of the pub.
701
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:56.960
Well, I mean, that's it's unusual for sure.
702
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:00.960
But I think there's that whole phrase that says, you know,
703
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:03.960
from a coaching perspective, you know why you're doing something.
704
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:04.960
You can put up with any how, right?
705
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:06.960
And you'll make better decisions.
706
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:10.960
I'm a great believer in going like, what would the three-year version of you ahead
707
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.960
would be proud that you made in the decision you made in that moment?
708
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:16.960
Would the three-year version of you be proud that you've gone to the pub?
709
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:18.960
Or that you stayed and finished off what you needed to finish off?
710
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.960
And I think when you run it through and you go, look, how serious am I about that goal?
711
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:26.960
If I'm serious about that goal, I'm going to stay here and get the stuff done that's got to get done.
712
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.960
And I remember, I think I've told the story.
713
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:33.960
But I remember I was working to help turn around an IT company years ago,
714
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.960
sort of before I did coaching properly, I was involved in St. Turner and stuff.
715
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.960
And I remember picking up the phone call on it was on the 24th.
716
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.960
And it was from a major manufacturer.
717
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:47.960
And they had to get some stuff done by the 31st to get it in the budgetary year,
718
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:49.960
then the financial year and they had to get done.
719
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:50.960
And they had about a million pounds to spend.
720
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:53.960
But they needed somebody to work with them over Christmas, spend a million pounds.
721
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:55.960
And I took the call on the 24th.
722
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.960
And they were like, look, can you work with us between Christmas and year?
723
00:35:58.960 --> 00:35:59.960
We have to spend this budget.
724
00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:00.960
And I was like, yeah, okay, great.
725
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:01.960
Go back and negotiate.
726
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:05.960
Darling, we'll be going on holiday later this year than the final conversation.
727
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.960
But I still think there's a massive amount of value in being available at that time of year
728
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.960
to take calls to talk to people because there are still people with problems to solve
729
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.960
and there are still people with budget pressures to get stuff done by the end of the year.
730
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.960
But if you don't know why you're doing it,
731
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.960
it's if you don't know why you're pushing to do that.
732
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.960
Why you didn't go to the pub and do the easy thing, you did the hard thing.
733
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:27.960
And success is about doing hard things now and easy things later.
734
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:28.960
Yeah.
735
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.960
And I think that's what that's what the visualization does.
736
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.960
That's what it allows you to manifest is it manifests opportunities.
737
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:36.960
That's what I believe.
738
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.960
It doesn't manifest the thing manifest opportunities that get you to the thing.
739
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.960
You have to be available and open to receive the opportunity.
740
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.960
But it manifests opportunities for it.
741
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.960
And you won't always know where they're coming from.
742
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:49.960
But it's about right.
743
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.960
If it helps you do the right thing at the right time, then it was then it was absolutely.
744
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:57.960
And you're looking at every day there's so much neuroscience around this now about how your brain
745
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.960
it will literally hardwire your brain if you're looking at your goals every single day
746
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:04.960
as a visual representation and they will show up quicker.
747
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.960
And like don't take my word for this.
748
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:09.960
Don't take your word for a test it in your own life.
749
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:11.960
If you're listening to this, pick something you want to manifest into your life.
750
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.960
A, you're prepared to work for in the next 12 months.
751
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:16.960
Stick on your desk.
752
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.960
Look at it every day and come back and tell me how quickly you got there.
753
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:23.960
Because when you realize that actually your job is to raise your level of vibration
754
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:26.960
and activity up to the same level of vibration activity,
755
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:30.960
that the thing you want to manifest is already on.
756
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.960
Then when you do that, it shows up really fast.
757
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:36.960
Like in random ways to random ways, right?
758
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.960
Yeah.
759
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:38.960
Oh, it's incredibly powerful.
760
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:40.960
So you, so that's an awesome story.
761
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:42.960
I didn't know you'd tell him that one either.
762
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.960
But then, you know, you are, you are a storytelling genius, right?
763
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.960
So talk to me about team though, because like when,
764
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.960
because this is going to take us down to exit conversations and like, you know,
765
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:56.960
how you have managed to build a business, but then exit the business,
766
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:58.960
which is all linked to your book.
767
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:00.960
So when did you start building the team?
768
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:05.960
Because I remember you doing something really unconventional in terms of sales team at the beginning,
769
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:10.960
which was you had basically commission only salespeople at the beginning of the whole process, didn't you?
770
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:16.960
Which I remember that being quite a radical kind of way to build the sales function.
771
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:17.960
Absolutely.
772
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:24.960
And it was a, you needed quality quality people to sell our service because I,
773
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:26.960
not only sell it, but then also deliver it.
774
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:32.960
So there was a real value in saying that I'm going to be the person to understand your problem,
775
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:34.960
but I'm also going to be the problem that solves it.
776
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.960
Yeah, I'm going to be the person that solves that problem as well.
777
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:43.960
So being the person that goes on site, runs the workshop, pulls the story together.
778
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:48.960
You know, sort of start blocking out how that presentation flow might go.
779
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:49.960
That's that's one person.
780
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.960
See, there aren't many people out there that you can just plug, you know,
781
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.960
pluck off the street and go, this is the process, crack on and do it.
782
00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:03.960
And so I had a handful of people that just in my network and good friends and what have you in particular,
783
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.960
a lady called Sally Bailey.
784
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:06.960
Yeah.
785
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:12.960
And still, you know, very much part of the team, a key, key member of the team.
786
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:19.960
And then she was a sales director for an IT company, had a growing family and was being pulled left right and center,
787
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:23.960
having any of the same challenges that we've talked about.
788
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:32.960
But as in as, yeah, as employed, you know, rather than, you know, alleged sort of master of your own destiny.
789
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:38.960
And we met for pizza in London and it was just one of those things that she said, this sounds great.
790
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:40.960
I said, you be incredible at this.
791
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:42.960
And I want to work with a mate.
792
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.960
I want to work with people I can have fun with.
793
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:52.960
And over a pizza express, I remember doodling out how we were going to work the commission process.
794
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.960
Sally was wonderful enough to go, I get it.
795
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.960
One of the things I said that I can't do is I can't pay you until I'm paid.
796
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:06.960
And that from a cash flow perspective was absolutely vital.
797
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:13.960
I didn't realize quite how important it would be until the business started scaling and then obviously cash is cash is king.
798
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:25.960
But just by putting some basics in place like that and just thinking it through rationally and being able to with some of the person that you're speaking to, it's not, it's a negotiation, but it's not a,
799
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:29.960
a conflict negotiation is how do we make this work for both of us?
800
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.960
It's almost a collaboration, right?
801
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:36.960
I mean, you approached it with a collaboration mindset, I would suggest that that's collaboration, isn't it?
802
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:37.960
But it's also been real.
803
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:39.960
Like I pay you when I get paid.
804
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.960
It's like, well, great, let's have that's the reality of where I am in my journey right now.
805
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:48.960
I can't pay you if I haven't been paid, at least if you're honest about it, you're managing expectations.
806
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:49.960
Exactly.
807
00:40:50.960 --> 00:41:03.960
And that was Sally was the first sort of, you know, sort of a part of that, that jigsaw puzzle that started to expand and we used that model to grow our footprint in terms of consultancy and sells delivery.
808
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:14.960
But also from a design perspective as well, I had naively and remember you pushed me really hard on this saying, I'm doing OK on the design.
809
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:21.960
The design was not that people would love the process and the design would turn up, they go, yeah, it's fine.
810
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.960
And eventually you kind of kicked me hard enough to say, just try some freelancers.
811
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:32.960
And as a guy, Dan Cousins, who again, still part of the team, part of the extended family that we've got.
812
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:39.960
I push something out to him, it Brits living in Sweden and through it out to him.
813
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:41.960
And what came back.
814
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:43.960
It was just extraordinary.
815
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.960
I mean, absolutely remarkable.
816
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:57.960
Share that with the client who happens to be that software company that I mentioned and we're like, whoa, this is OK, this is now we're firing great story now supported with an incredible deliverable.
817
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:07.960
Now you're flying and it was once those elements started coming into place, then things just flew and then the final piece was the project management element.
818
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:13.960
And that's when we, that's when I took on our first FTE Liz Priestall who you'll remember.
819
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:14.960
Yeah.
820
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:17.960
So many, many years and Liz was.
821
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:23.960
Liz had a tough job at a start because there was really no clearly defined job description.
822
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:30.960
It was just help our customers and help us serve our customers and she put processes in.
823
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:38.960
She basically just kind of got the back office configured in many of the ways things have evolved dramatically.
824
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:45.960
And a lot of those fundamental approaches are still being used today by the team of 3540 people that are running awful.
825
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:52.960
So do you think that, do you think without that without Liz without that higher, you wouldn't have systemized as well as you did.
826
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:59.960
Do you think so because it's not your wheelhouse to put system because obviously how did you put the systems in place that got that helped you grow.
827
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.960
You grew to over two million 40 people, you know, significant business, right?
828
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.960
Like, and you don't do that without systems.
829
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:14.960
And I was like, well, you're not a systems guy, you're the creative sales guy, you're the, you're the visionary, you're the, you're the person, you're that person, you're not the operational.
830
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:16.960
Let's turn this into a system in a process.
831
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:18.960
So I was like, well, how did you do that?
832
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:20.960
And it wasn't a how it was a who then.
833
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:22.960
Yeah, 100%.
834
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:27.960
And what was interesting is fast forward 15 years.
835
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:29.960
And Lloyd, who you've worked with.
836
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:30.960
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
837
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:35.960
This is our, yeah, has got an incredible is an incredibly creative.
838
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:38.960
But from a systems and operations perspective.
839
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.960
So it's real, real insight.
840
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:47.960
And what was interesting is that the Liz example was me going, I'm super busy.
841
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.960
I do what you want to do, because I'm sure it'll be better than it currently is.
842
00:43:52.960 --> 00:44:02.960
When, when I spotted Lloyd as being a potential leader of the business, indeed, the business, it was when he said, we could be doing things differently.
843
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:13.960
We'll tweak this tweak that and they, and he was fundamentally looking for quite a big revolution in the way that we were utilizing our teams, engaging with our customers.
844
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:21.960
And allowing back office people to be revenue generating and have direct client relationships, rather than just through the consultants.
845
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:26.960
It was a, it was a real revolution will be a quiet one.
846
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:36.960
And what was interesting is that the reason I trust Lloyd as much as I do is he did it despite me at that point going, no, this is how we do things here.
847
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:41.960
And because by then I felt I had to have control over everything.
848
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:53.960
Liz, crack on and do what you want to do, because I'm too busy when I was right in the thick of it, I felt as that dictator MD for a period of time.
849
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:56.960
It had to be my idea or I had to rubber stamp it.
850
00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:03.960
And frankly, I had better, more talented, more insightful people around me, Gary, we just need to change this more.
851
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:14.960
And he was smart enough and had enough emotional intelligence to say, I'm not, this isn't prepare a paper presented to Simon and he'll give me the thumbs up.
852
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:21.960
This will be a gradual process where I need to go away and prove it on one project and then maybe prove it across a team.
853
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:23.960
And then let's pass it on your trust, right?
854
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:25.960
Absolutely.
855
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:38.960
But I think there's a really interesting point there, because I think a lot of entrepreneurs on the scale up journey can get stuck in that use the word control freak, but kind of like heavily ownership sort of I it's mine.
856
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:46.960
I own it all right, rather than actually I need to be a CEO now, I need to I need to be operating like a CEO, I need to be thinking like a CEO, I don't need to be thinking like an owner.
857
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.960
I need to shift my mindset, fundamentally shifted to being a CEO.
858
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:59.960
And I think, and I've said it before another person, I have a whole challenge with the title of managing director, I think it's an appalling title because it basically starts with the word managing.
859
00:45:59.960 --> 00:46:11.960
And you shouldn't, if you're going to be, if you're going to grow a business, you shouldn't be managing, you should have people who manage it and you focus on growing it, which is why I like CEO, CEO stands to me for creating expansion opportunities, creating that growth.
860
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:20.960
So your job is to grow the business, not run the business, and there's a fundamental shift in that, and it's one of the things I like helping clients realize is look, your job isn't to run it anymore, your job is to grow it.
861
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:28.960
Grow it internationally, grow it through partnerships, grow it through, you know, acquisitions, all of those are growth tools, but your job is to grow it, not to run it.
862
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:41.960
And I think we all have to have that kind of breakdown moment, it says, you had it when you went, look, I'm trying to control it, and then you realize you actually become the handbrake on the business because you're actually stopping other people innovating it and moving it forward.
863
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:45.960
Was that, was that how you experienced it, or when did you decide to let go?
864
00:46:45.960 --> 00:47:00.960
It was, I think a lot of that behavior, only in retrospect when you start analyzing it and pondering enable is that a lot of it came out of fear of I'm just about holding this stuff together.
865
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:25.960
Yeah, and, and now you want it now you bright young thing wants to come in with new ideas and I'm honestly I'm sweating it just keeping this thing, you know, steady, and it was, and I think that was kind of again, it was a real learning of we'll talk about the pandemic is the pandemic was a really interesting stress test of a lot of the theory in place.
866
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:36.960
So pre the pandemic I was I'd recognize I needed a leadership team and Luke and Lloyd covering different parts of the business shout out to both of them because they're great.
867
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:42.960
I've had a project working with them and they're both absolutely stunning stunning individuals really, really good.
868
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:51.960
It was what was amazing and luck more than anything, but we kind of got our act together, you know, sort of the three me goes just before the pandemic.
869
00:47:51.960 --> 00:48:06.960
The pandemic was and I write it in the book the pandemic could have broken that yeah that that sort of brotherhood because naturally pandemic yeah these guys were frothing at the mouth really excited about what they could possibly do in the business and then we hit the pandemic.
870
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:20.960
That very naturally yeah Lloyd has got a young family Luke has was starting a family with all of that stuff going on I completely understand if they went you know what we're going to stop pushing for the
871
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.960
pandemic is we're going to do this we want to look after the most important part of our lives.
872
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:42.960
They did that was at the same time sticking with the plan of no we can be the future of this business how do we help it work terms of communication in terms of keeping the the ship which was now spread in all corners of the map with people working from home.
873
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:50.960
How do we continue to make this work it's not just on you Simon it's on the three of us to have a plan.
874
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.960
Well that's a senior leadership team that right I mean like.
875
00:48:53.960 --> 00:49:08.960
Well you know ultimately really up and something point yeah and the pandemic was the best test we came out of it and and I kind of had a bit of I don't like to use the phrase because it's a bad use of it but a bit of delayed PTSD off the back.
876
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:27.960
The pandemic pandemic kind of went through came out didn't borrow a penny we were yeah we spent a lot of the reserves but we we look after our people and there was an important lesson straight away right like you've had the discipline to put reserves away yeah and like the people who got into trouble and borrowed debt and took money from governments and all
877
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:36.960
less than it was because they hadn't you know like such an important lesson and don't need to gloss over it because it is a discipline of going look when we're making money and things
878
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:44.960
are great put money aside for when they're not because one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a CEO is to assume that whatever is happening right now will always be happening.
879
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:54.960
Point number one and that might be always good or it might be we're going through a terrible time it's always going to be terrible and that's not both will end this to shall pass but when things are
880
00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:12.960
just don't rip out loads of cash just because she can which which is a massive mistake I see people making they go we had a really great year I paid I paid myself a 250,000 pound dividend or 100,000 pound dividend and you go go great actually you just ripped out any any liquidity that we might need if there's a problem in the market
881
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:26.960
or the suddenly a tech piece of tech cannot comes out that knocks off the revenue stream for six because people don't need it anymore because AI does it whatever it's like when when you're making money have the discipline to go I'm going to keep
882
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:37.960
an a certain amount in there in case there's a black swan event in case there's something that I can't plan for like I'm like a pandemic like whatever has to be right like like the businesses
883
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:45.960
that got into trouble with the ones that hadn't even thought about having any kind of resilience so the fact that you did and I'm just you know credit to you
884
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:55.960
because you didn't just rip it out and it can be it can be so tempting to do that I think is entrepreneurs go look I've worked really hard for 10 years we're making money now I deserve to take a massive payday thank you very much and it's like
885
00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:07.960
okay but that's actually not the smartest strategy if you're if you're trying to build something of exitable value to rip out the cash in the short term you're still living a lifestyle model and you're not building a grown up business.
886
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:24.960
And I think there's there's culturally or sort of in terms of a mindset of me at that time as being leader of the business along with Lisa you know who co-founded it it wasn't on paper it was our business on paper you could be that that
887
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:39.960
statistical yeah right well it's well yeah there's a new Ferrari out but why not we weren't we weren't it and the reality was we we kind of realized that early on without really saying it out loud ours was a people business
888
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:57.960
yes and it was yeah we were stewards of the business but actually yeah I always think there are certain individuals it's probably unfair to call them out but they're a handful of people that have been with us for such a long time right where when they joined they were single
889
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:19.960
that one person in particular single bloke who's now got a family of three got an incredible wife has moved into this wonderful house home is an absolute joy to spend time with I I choose to spend time with him even if we didn't work together he's just gorgeous person lovely person these families lovely and everything.
890
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:49.840
You don't view them as an asset on a production line once you've got that connection don't don't feel that for absolutely everybody in the business but there is a bit of a test where we recruit which is could we go for a beer with them yeah and it's and it's a really unscientific thing but you just don't want people that are going to drag you down jumping way ahead but we're talking about the EOT there's a document you create called a letter of wishes which is
891
00:52:49.840 --> 00:53:19.240
basically your kind of your your open letter to the business that you're handing over saying this is what I wish for your for your future this is kind of yeah I'm doing this and one of them was just just keep looking after each other don't let don't let a bad apple get in and ruin what is a beautiful beautiful thing that we as a collective have created you know it's a lot of a lot of people watching this this this podcast and and it in yeah
892
00:53:19.240 --> 00:53:49.200
but sort of our positions it's really easy for their mates to come on the back and well tonight I can't believe it you know business turning over millions and you know that and it's easy for the for the response to be our thanks yet yeah and then be quite proud the response should be I'm just part of what's create 100% you could never do this stuff on your own 100% and that's I've always had a problem with the phrase self made man when people go you know he's a self made man I might know he's not nobody on the planet
893
00:53:49.240 --> 00:54:19.200
self made even like whether you're a top performing athlete right you're still not self made there's a team of coaches there's nutritionists around you there's people around you that help you be the best version of you right and like don't it's the same for business Branson Branson says at all times like I'm just I'm the I'm the face of the brand there is an amazing team of people around me that make this to make the Virgin Empire work it's not I'm just the face that's my job in this I think there's a reason why in the growing up business formulas like look number one is about leveling up your vision
894
00:54:19.240 --> 00:54:49.200
your for your personal life vision for your business life and leveling all of that up so you're really clear on what you're building it step two is is building the team it's teaming up with the right people it's bringing the right people in around you at the right stage you the business that you're at and again it depends on what stage you're at as to who you need you need different people at different stages and and you get the right people around you so that you can do the stuff you're brilliant at and that you're designed for and is your flow zone and they can do what's brilliant and then that is the multiplier
895
00:54:49.200 --> 00:55:05.040
and then you scale the sales after that because you've got the right people to handle it if you do it the other way around it doesn't work it right if you try to grow sales without building the right team you will crash and burn and you know I've had a client in my recent where I got called in and they grew to
896
00:55:05.040 --> 00:55:21.800
millions and millions of pounds and it crashed back down to two and a half million from six because they didn't have the right people in the right roles and they hadn't done that first and they're they're grown and thinking that solves the problem and then will backfill good people are like it's the wrong way around you got to build good people and they build the business
897
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:40.680
and I think that's where whether it was intentional from you or and I think it was but I think one of your skills over the years is you've always been good at sporting talent whether you was employed by you or it was someone in another role that you came across you you've always kind of had an eye for talent haven't you in terms of going I think they're really good
898
00:55:41.680 --> 00:55:57.680
Yeah, I mean it was a common thing that when Lisa and I would go out for a meal or with the kids or what have you it could be somebody that serves you in a coffee shop and you go I'd be great I'd love them to be part of the business and it's just a small interaction but you know there's something there
899
00:55:57.680 --> 00:56:27.600
And yeah, you're absolutely I'd like to I'd like to have been more analytical you know we kissed a few frogs along the way and I think sometimes I hadn't quite figured out always why it was right but they're good example is there's one of our senior people got called Ross who's again being with us for a long time he's another one of those incredible people that is just you just just spent time with we initially
900
00:56:27.680 --> 00:56:37.800
interviewed him for a sales role it was him and Luke and a few other people going for the role Luke got the right Luke is now KMD and and but Ross was
901
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:50.800
We spotted him he wasn't right for that role, but what an amazing person it was there was just something about it was like he's so good and so we called him up to that that role is not right for you but we want you in the business
902
00:56:51.800 --> 00:57:15.800
Can we just keep in touch and when we've spotted the opportunity to slot you in we'd love you to join us and that there's about good six nine months between that conversation and him joining as part of the project team, but when he did and there is you know his flow and he's there is responsible for looking after one of our biggest clients and has been for the last 10 years so it's it's not necessarily always
903
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:32.800
Yeah, that's the perfect juxtapuzzle piece and that's the slot is going to go into it's about spotting spot in the right person and just sometimes saying we should work together now is not the right time can we just keep in such I think that's such an absolute
904
00:57:33.320 --> 00:57:47.520
I mean, the value you just drop there in terms of the nugget there around team is it's just it's amazing because I think to I've always said you should always be recruiting and I don't necessarily mean you should always be running ads, but you should always be in the mindset of I'm looking for the next great person.
905
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:57.480
And I think if you find the next great person and they're working in a coffee shop doesn't matter great like find great people and give them the skills to do what you want in the business that you've built.
906
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:12.480
But find great people everywhere and just have that that mindset of I'm just I'm just looking for great people and I might meet them in I might meet them networking I might meet them in a coffee shop I might meet them on holiday you know you that you're if you if you have that mindset of I'm just looking for great people
907
00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:17.000
But don't be afraid to say to somebody this isn't right for you in our but we'll come back and revisit it.
908
00:58:17.240 --> 00:58:20.640
I think having that that's a level of maturity as a leader.
909
00:58:21.040 --> 00:58:37.680
Where you're not desperate to go look look we should hire you now because I'm scared that you'll even though the role is wrong for you but you're great and then I think I've seen that where people bring in people because they don't want to lose them rather than saying listen I don't want to put you in the wrong role I'd rather we just stayed in touch and in six months a year or nine months or whatever.
910
00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:49.800
Then there's a role for you potentially then I'll reach out and I think if you have those grown up conversations with people during the recruitment process they respect you for it they're like great well I really appreciate you being honest with me about that I would that that's great I know where I stand.
911
00:58:50.360 --> 00:59:18.440
And and that's how you that's how you find an attract talent because then people refer people and go listen you want to come and work for this company because the culture's so good right and and that like I want to talk EOT because I want to dive into that in a second but just you you built an incredible culture right the the rifle and it's not just you as you look Lloyd is everybody is built it right but like I remember early on you you kind of getting really clear on the values and how important has that been in in getting the business to a point where you fell.
912
00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:28.360
Yeah do you know what actually I could sell it to the team like how important is that there was that it's been building the culture so that that even became a thought process for you.
913
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:47.920
It was yeah again being brutally honest I think I paid lip service to the concepts of vision and values for a while and we had we did we fell into the same old trap which is there's come up with some nice short pithy statements will stick a couple of those on the wall then there you go.
914
00:59:47.920 --> 01:00:17.760
That's all vision of values elements of being a business nailed and we stuck them up there and no dependent blind bit of attention we didn't necessarily live by them equally we didn't push against them they would just background noise and then it was really taking it seriously was when Luke and Lloyd stepped up so that next level up and they would with a lot of guidance from you was kind of yet we need to stop talking about this we actually need to be able to start
915
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:36.080
building firmly on some some strong foundations some strong vision because they were at the start of the race I was feeling like I was heading towards the finishing line and they were like now we've got a marathon in front of us we need to be fully prepared and there are some fundamentals we have to have in place.
916
01:00:36.560 --> 01:00:54.160
And one of those is just having a framework within which we can build this team build this business around some you know centrally held beliefs yeah and so they invested way more time and took it way more seriously than I ever did and and that was a real learning for me because once they did that.
917
01:00:54.800 --> 01:01:19.520
Then you could start seeing it's almost like iron filings being attracted to a magnet in the fact that once the magnet was there then the behaviors kind of aligned because it was properly there that's a great visual that's a great visual that's a great visual kind of like I don't know and then well this is actually grown and it's really robust now and it really is the law of affection yeah I guess and and that works really really effectively so.
918
01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:49.200
Was I I'm incredibly proud to be part of the culture that I was always had it's never been as robust and as accountable as it is today and the council sometimes sounds like a like a negative it's not a negative it's it's a people now kind of can can call out although that's not very I feel yeah a good example is again prompted by by the the inclusive nature of the business now.
919
01:01:49.680 --> 01:02:05.680
The guys had a conversation I wasn't involved in it but that the whole business had a conversation about companies we should and shouldn't work with who we feel we're comfortable yeah industries and sectors that we as a collective don't feel comfortable working in and it was.
920
01:02:06.720 --> 01:02:15.440
Again that could have very easily fallen into a virtue signaling well here's a gazillion companies you can't work with because of what have.
921
01:02:16.160 --> 01:02:36.960
And actually the culture and the vision and values of the business actually led to it being a much more rounded conversation which is rather than let's just be virtual signaling and not touch anything that's ever had oil in it well that's kind of your ridiculous or pharmaceuticals because there are some bad things out there but there's actually some incredibly good one absolutely yeah there's some really you can paint.
922
01:02:36.960 --> 01:03:06.720
yourself into into a really weird corner the vision of values said well look at all of these things but also let's look at these from a commercial standpoint let's look at the good we're doing yeah an example what that called out was working with a multinational in one of the Middle East countries that doesn't have a great sort of human rights record so on paper you go well why would we possibly work with with that yeah on that project well that projects if you dug a little deeper.
923
01:03:07.120 --> 01:03:36.480
Was actually the supporting a change in culture within this international business it was a board total female yes female led board and it was about prompting change and and and driving change within that that country well that's exactly the sort of stuff we should be doing yeah culture prompted the not just looking at the first page but actually digging a little bit deeper into the book and go okay this is what that that's about.
924
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:49.040
Yeah and I had a roundabout way of talking about the impacts of culture and vision and values it's a great way that I mean that though I always think that's it's like yeah I think that's a great example though if like like like don't
925
01:03:49.200 --> 01:04:02.800
if we decided he works with somebody or not like what what are they trying to achieve and is it something I believe in you know is your mission alive with what I'm trying to do right I mean that's a great example of that so you said something earlier and I just want to circle back to it because you still said
926
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:26.960
luke and Lloyd had this kind of energy that they wanted to run for another but like run a marathon nothing was your wording but and you were starting to feel tired so like when did you realize that you probably you were like look I think I need a way out of this now I'm kind of at the end of my journey with it like what was the what was it that prompted that to for you to kind of go I need to yeah I think I'm I think I'm coming to the end of this journey.
927
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:56.720
You're your shoulder is probably quite wet from the tears many years that we worked together where I just need a pull even hug where it's like kind of because as an entrepreneur you you're absolutely right you touched on it a couple of times which is can get lonely yeah and feel like okay this yeah so I we looked at exit as an option a few times over the years so one of the reason I yeah we live in structure now and it's you know beautiful part of the world and what have you.
928
01:04:56.960 --> 01:05:26.400
crazily one of the reasons not the only reason but one of the reasons we live here and the business is a hundred miles down the road in lester is that I realized it's the only really in retrospect I realized I needed some space from the business it got to the point where you kind of I live literally two miles from the office so hey Saturday morning i'm not doing anything i'll go in and and work yeah that's such a great that that's such a I think that's a challenge if you work at home you know i'm very lucky i've got this amazing studio work at home.
929
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:56.920
The challenges that when I finish it you know say six o'clock and I I walked into the kitchen with so I have that's my commute which is lovely by the way and it's gorgeous i'm blessed for it but on a Friday definitely appreciate it but there are other days when i'm still mentally working when i'm in the kitchen by the end my head right and i'm still in that mind space i'm not being pulled dad pull husband i'm being pulled coach and there's regularly a time that so you guys if you don't want me to throw this saucepan at you stop coaching me because you're done now for the day and i've kind of.
930
01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:25.800
But i think sometimes distance is a really important asset mentally for entrepreneurs and i think i think it's i think it's very mature of you that you realize that first of all i think most of us you know i've realized that actually i like going away because it you know and having that time to reflect and it's distance right where we take people to retreat you know we get time to spain because when you have distance from something you see it on a different level of clarity and i think if you live really close to it exactly that there's bad habits creep in right so you were so.
931
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:34.280
Were you feeling that you were doing that too much were you going in on a Saturday were you doing those kind of things that that was that was sides to sort of where you are or.
932
01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:37.240
I think there are a few things there was.
933
01:06:38.640 --> 01:06:55.120
yeah but with that there's so many positive things that come with team so many positive things that come with people but there are also some challenges with that as well and so there are a few things a lot over the years you know sort of moments of real conflict within the team that.
934
01:06:55.640 --> 01:07:06.720
In retrospect, I should have either nips in the bird earlier or handle differently and it's kind of it all blows up and and then it settles down and everything's fine but sort of the scars are still there.
935
01:07:07.040 --> 01:07:17.680
Your own mind you never really kind of is that okay that's that's another kind of strike in just in terms of your mental energy for the next time it comes along and if you don't nip some of those.
936
01:07:18.240 --> 01:07:24.880
Political things in the bird and what have you that they can they can sort of tie you know can I just say can I just say something about that because I.
937
01:07:25.600 --> 01:07:40.840
Somebody gave me a really interesting perspective on this the other day I don't think it's just I think it's trauma actually right I think some of those things like I think we don't think of them as trauma because you know I mean I know you sort of related to to sort of the covid stuff as as traumatic and it was but I think.
938
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:41.480
We forget the running of business can be quite traumatic at times like there's the people you know if there's if there's internal conflict that's traumatic if there's you know if you've got if you've ever had a week where you're like if I don't make two customers don't pass by Friday we're not paying the we're not paying people right that is traumatic I don't care who you are what you say that is traumatic right that that you know Stephen Bartlett talks about we had to find 350,000 pounds by Friday or we couldn't pay everybody it doesn't matter it's still traumatic doesn't matter where it's 3,000 30,000 we've all had weeks like that where we're
939
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:28.960
like if this guy doesn't pay and I can't ring him up again because it's going to look like I'm desperate and like and you're there are trauma scars is what I would probably refer to them now as of being an entrepreneur and I think everyone's got a tolerance for how many of those scars you can take before you go yeah I don't want another one of those.
940
01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:44.000
Exactly and I think that it was all of those sort of things and I was just knackered I think that's the other thing as well is he kind of you run out of steam and the holidays are are short their long weekends rather than the two weeks away that you
941
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:57.200
used to have when you were in pro e and all of those sort of things kind of all just tap sort of you know sort of but you say that in the book you say you say that in the book and it's a brilliant point I want to bring up because you say in the book any of the book which is don't mistake or don't
942
01:08:57.200 --> 01:09:08.920
misread the fact that you're just tired for the fact that you want to sell the business be really clear on which one it is because sometimes it's just that you're tired and a really good two week holiday or a month off or whatever is going to
943
01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:18.880
reignite your passion for the business and then don't sell it you know and I think that's I think you've got to be able to read whether am I just tired of this thing or am I actually like done with it and I think when you're
944
01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:26.400
emotionally done with it then then it's very hard to muster the enthusiasm to rock up and lead if you're just like I'm at the end of the
945
01:09:26.400 --> 01:09:37.760
road. So when I was writing the book yeah sort of I sold the book to a publisher and then started writing the book and then realized the book I was
946
01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:45.200
writing wasn't the book the publisher wanted and that's fine so yeah sort of so we went down a different route and that's all good.
947
01:09:46.160 --> 01:09:53.280
One of the reason I said is it became quite a personal book because I realized that actually you've got to ask those really
948
01:09:53.280 --> 01:10:01.680
blunt questions yeah whilst it's about transitioning over to employment employee ownership first quarter of the book is are you really
949
01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:09.440
sure you want to sell be it trade sale EOT and be it whatever it might be yeah what are the reasons for doing this because if
950
01:10:09.440 --> 01:10:16.880
you're doing this cozy naked are you doing this because the businesses run out of steam and actually you can see it go
951
01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:27.600
those are not the reasons then to certainly do an EOT yeah you can see about yeah to hit the buffers find trade sale get rid of it
952
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:33.760
yeah if that if that's how you're feeling but it was interesting in the early days of writing the book I had a
953
01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:40.880
conversation with somebody that was considering going to employee ownership ran a small PR company and
954
01:10:42.160 --> 01:10:47.120
just chatting with her and she said and I said let me just share with you the first chapter full of
955
01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:53.600
typos it's a real kind of working progress but have a read of this because maybe this is where you're at
956
01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:58.160
and it was basically a long list of are you too tired are there other options that should be looking at
957
01:10:58.160 --> 01:11:02.880
partnership should you be looking at developing people to take past the back and onto but just sit back
958
01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:06.800
and allow them to do it all of those different options all higher coach right I mean the other
959
01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:11.200
thing is like maybe just higher coach to come in and give you some tools and just help you build the
960
01:11:11.200 --> 01:11:15.280
team so that you're not stressed out by it that's a viable option too right I mean I've had people come
961
01:11:15.280 --> 01:11:19.360
to me and go I'm thinking of selling my business so I'm going don't just just just just let me coach you
962
01:11:19.360 --> 01:11:23.200
for 18 months and this will you'll be out of this thing and you'll have the team where you need it to be
963
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:29.680
don't sell something that's got value and just because you're exhausted I think that's that's such a
964
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:33.440
valid point and I think a lot of entrepreneurs regret it afterwards when they've sold
965
01:11:33.440 --> 01:11:39.520
something that actually they would just tired well yeah this is statistic in the book I can't
966
01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:45.840
remember what it is now but it's something I use the I use the the analogy of marriage
967
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:51.120
marriage is going through ups and downs they it's not always a honeymoon and there was a
968
01:11:51.120 --> 01:11:59.040
stat there by a company that said the of divorced couples more than half regrets having
969
01:11:59.040 --> 01:12:02.800
divorced as quickly as they did I read that in the book and thought that was really interesting
970
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:07.840
actually and it's like well if you use that same analogy for running a business and many people
971
01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:13.360
just go oh I've had enough hit the hit the yeah the big red button and that's it yeah and so I
972
01:12:13.360 --> 01:12:17.840
shared this with this this this later it was running this business and she came back going
973
01:12:17.840 --> 01:12:24.240
you've nailed it I just need to step back from the day to day because I'm doing and the reason
974
01:12:24.240 --> 01:12:29.760
it's so important to get that stuff right is if you're if you're not 100% committed to doing it for
975
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:36.160
the right reasons don't go anywhere near employee ownership because you won't have set it up for
976
01:12:36.160 --> 01:12:44.160
success employee ownership yeah talking about the financial side is you're betting on a positive
977
01:12:44.160 --> 01:12:50.880
future for the business now if you're handing over a basket case the odds aren't in your favor
978
01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:56.480
you actually want to hand over a business as thankfully I've done to people that are the love it
979
01:12:56.480 --> 01:13:04.160
as much as you do and are talented and empowered and focused and all of the things they need to be
980
01:13:04.160 --> 01:13:11.120
to make it a real success our business I feel brother their business because no yours anymore
981
01:13:11.120 --> 01:13:18.880
it's not no it's very quick aside I was on the client site yesterday with a colleague
982
01:13:18.880 --> 01:13:26.160
and an i4 and got chattensets to somebody so it's a sign to tell me is i4 yours I said he was
983
01:13:26.160 --> 01:13:33.760
it's now his he's he's he's a co-owner along with 35 other colleagues but yeah it's now his
984
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:40.160
his business it's a it was a lovely way of kind of saying he's just what we ought to explain
985
01:13:40.160 --> 01:13:44.800
something then because like I think well first of all congratulations we're writing the book
986
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:50.240
um the the guide to transitioning from boss to benefactor right great great title but I think
987
01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:55.840
very few people know what any ot is would you mind just kind of like walk us back into basic
988
01:13:55.840 --> 01:14:00.720
but give us the basics like what is it and why did you select it as the bit because you could have
989
01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:06.240
gone trade sale you could have gone um actually do you know what I'll you know I'll sell this to
990
01:14:06.240 --> 01:14:10.000
another investor private investor you could have potentially gone private actually they probably
991
01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:14.720
weren't big enough so in terms of in terms of size that they tend to go for they tend to look at
992
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:18.880
you know five five to ten million above really is there so before they get involved so you
993
01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:23.760
won't quite on their radar probably but you could certainly be a trade sale or you could have been
994
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:30.160
in a private private investor so all right and so this employee ownership trust or EOT as it
995
01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:34.560
is this banded around a lot most people if you're awesome don't have a clue what it is or why
996
01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:39.440
they would do it yeah so like just just give us give us give us the what do we what do we need to
997
01:14:39.440 --> 01:14:43.440
know if we've never come across this before or if we've heard of it but don't even understand why
998
01:14:43.440 --> 01:14:48.880
it should be an option on the table if I sort of put myself in my shoes two and a half three
999
01:14:48.880 --> 01:14:56.640
years ago so when I came across the employee ownership as a concept initially I thought from my
1000
01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:03.520
perspective speaking really selfishly hold on so what how it works is um that basically you
1001
01:15:03.520 --> 01:15:11.680
create a trust and that trust operates on behalf of the employees so so yeah it's it's a it's
1002
01:15:11.680 --> 01:15:16.800
call it a separate entity a separate business but it's a trust it's on companies house and it's
1003
01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:24.800
there and it's its sole purpose is to act on behalf of the employees of my full presentations
1004
01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:31.920
what you do is you know at least when I had 100% of the shares what we do is we sold those shares
1005
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:39.360
to the trust yeah now the trust has got no money it's yeah it's a it's a it's an entity but it's
1006
01:15:39.360 --> 01:15:43.280
you know it's not been trading it has no bank account or any of that sort of it's all as a bank
1007
01:15:43.280 --> 01:15:49.760
together but it has no it has no funds so obviously you can't afford to write a nice last check
1008
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:55.920
and say well there you go we've got it 100% now so what happens is that the trust funds that
1009
01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:03.840
funds the payments of the shares you know by the profits of the operating company that we've
1010
01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:10.880
just sold yes so in real simple terms at least when I sold it for whatever the number of pounds
1011
01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:15.120
yeah 100 pounds just do that yeah then he's been on that but 100 pounds you'll probably go down the
1012
01:16:15.120 --> 01:16:20.160
bubble and let's put it that way right yes exactly so 100 pounds the trust goes right we owe you
1013
01:16:20.160 --> 01:16:26.480
a hundred pounds over the next and for us it's panning out to be about five years every year
1014
01:16:26.480 --> 01:16:34.480
will pay you yeah sort of 20 quid and then after yeah after those five years we'll have cleared down
1015
01:16:34.480 --> 01:16:41.680
that debt and the trust out 100% owns that that business yeah but by then it's probably worth 200 pounds
1016
01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:45.600
because it continues to grow and well that's the goal isn't it for the people that are buying it the
1017
01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:49.360
team that are buying it is that they run it and grow it and it becomes more valuable than when
1018
01:16:49.360 --> 01:16:54.800
they bought it so they've bought an asset that's gone up in value you've but I think you made a
1019
01:16:54.800 --> 01:17:00.000
point earlier which you kind of sort of just said and I thought yeah that's so true like you are
1020
01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:05.840
betting on their ability to to run and grow the business because that's how they pay you if you
1021
01:17:05.840 --> 01:17:10.640
haven't done a very good job of building a leadership team then don't look at this as a strategy
1022
01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:17.360
because you're not the 100 pounds back you're not going to take 20 years to get back so yeah
1023
01:17:17.360 --> 01:17:21.520
so but it's a really interesting kind of mindset to go look actually I'm going to invest in training
1024
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:26.240
and developing and building a team so that one day I can sell the business to them using a
1025
01:17:26.240 --> 01:17:30.080
vehicle like you know this you know it is a brilliant vehicle to do it right John Lewis being
1026
01:17:30.080 --> 01:17:35.920
an example of a you know trust based organization right but only use this strategy or think about
1027
01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:39.600
this strategy if you have built a really good leadership team that you would trust to run the
1028
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:45.040
business when you're not there for five years because if you haven't you are gambling probably
1029
01:17:45.040 --> 01:17:51.360
the biggest liquidity event in your life on people you don't trust to run the day today now so
1030
01:17:51.360 --> 01:17:55.680
why would you ever do that so in the book I told you that there are three there's always rules of
1031
01:17:55.680 --> 01:18:02.640
three isn't it always always and it's through all nine stages of the process that we go through
1032
01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:06.480
and the first couple of stages are just get your act together get the basics in place get
1033
01:18:06.480 --> 01:18:10.480
you're in a circle in place it might have you but fundamentally all the way through the entire
1034
01:18:10.480 --> 01:18:17.200
thing is people having the right people in the right positions you know to ensure that yeah leadership
1035
01:18:17.200 --> 01:18:23.040
team is obviously one part of it but it's it's the the whole business you don't want to hand over
1036
01:18:23.040 --> 01:18:28.000
the basket case to two great leaders who within three years it burns out because everything
1037
01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:33.200
underneath them is falling apart so it take a view of the whole and people obviously leave with
1038
01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:41.040
that process because there is a a very established process you need HMRC approval for a transaction
1039
01:18:41.040 --> 01:18:45.760
under this type you need to make sure that all the legals are in place the account is in place
1040
01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:50.400
all of that stuff and then the final one is communication which is obviously a bit of a
1041
01:18:50.400 --> 01:18:55.440
passion of mine anyway but you've got to be able to communicate all the way through you don't
1042
01:18:56.160 --> 01:19:01.920
I think stage seven is when you actually share with the employee team what's happening but all
1043
01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:06.720
the elements leading up to that are all about making sure communication with your inner circle
1044
01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:12.880
with your advisor just all the other stakeholders is as crystal clear as it can be and you and I
1045
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:18.240
both know you can't communicate something that hasn't been properly processed in your own mind
1046
01:19:18.240 --> 01:19:23.200
yeah so a lot of this is just about figuring out what you're going to say how you're going to say
1047
01:19:23.200 --> 01:19:27.920
why it's important what the action will be well the stuff we're talking about right at the start
1048
01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:36.720
of this about presentations so one of the one of the areas of confusion is for the employees then
1049
01:19:36.720 --> 01:19:41.920
you know we create this trust and then people are going oh does that mean I've no suddenly got
1050
01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:48.240
to start yeah so I have to dig out some money and buy some shares in the trust no money is yeah
1051
01:19:48.240 --> 01:19:54.480
that as an employee of the business the trust operates on your behalf so there's no no
1052
01:19:54.640 --> 01:20:01.280
has paper shares or anything like that as an employee it's all there so an example and so what
1053
01:20:01.280 --> 01:20:08.800
the trust that can then do is start doing things really exciting things so at the blunt end and
1054
01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:16.320
this is not a reason for doing employee ownership but at the blunt end for employees there is a tax
1055
01:20:16.320 --> 01:20:23.360
freeze three thousand six hundred pounds at the moment sort of tax-free bonus that as an employee
1056
01:20:23.360 --> 01:20:29.200
can be paid by the trust to employees if they've had a good year yeah now obviously that that
1057
01:20:29.200 --> 01:20:33.440
typically waits until you've paid off the debt to the people that sold the business in the first
1058
01:20:33.440 --> 01:20:39.120
place yeah or it should do right it should do yeah well we we kind of did a bit of a that didn't
1059
01:20:39.200 --> 01:20:47.920
feel very fair to me so okay it tweaked the the the agreement so Lisa and I will in terms of our
1060
01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:54.240
repayment will will get up to a certain level which again a very nice level every year which should
1061
01:20:54.240 --> 01:21:03.360
see us out by about five years anything over that level we then split 50 50 with the employees not
1062
01:21:03.440 --> 01:21:08.480
in terms of necessarily profit share because profit share is one part of it but it could be
1063
01:21:09.520 --> 01:21:16.080
what Luke and Lloyd and and the trustee board have done over the last 18 months of putting private
1064
01:21:16.080 --> 01:21:24.080
medical cover for everybody there's been profit shares there's investment in a whole range of other
1065
01:21:24.080 --> 01:21:30.400
sort of mental health things and what have there's that people are already seeing a real benefit
1066
01:21:31.280 --> 01:21:35.280
sometimes in their back pocket sometimes in the environment that they're working in
1067
01:21:35.280 --> 01:21:40.240
you know quality of life right just the quality of life all of those sort of things as a result of
1068
01:21:41.120 --> 01:21:48.400
being employee owned so such a great story that was a like as a late from a legacy standpoint for you
1069
01:21:48.400 --> 01:21:53.600
but the legacy of the you've built and that they're carrying forward which I think I think a lot
1070
01:21:53.600 --> 01:21:57.840
of entrepreneurs go look I like the starting in the building and then there's a point where I want
1071
01:21:57.840 --> 01:22:02.960
to be I want to leave a legacy and I think this is a great vehicle to allow people to leave a legacy
1072
01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:07.840
right I mean the legacy is going to keep trading long long after you've been paid off
1073
01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:14.720
yeah a legacy something I'll write about in the book because it feels a bit feels a bit grand
1074
01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:22.720
it feels a little bit like yeah I'm not yeah I'm not expecting a statue anytime soon but I mean
1075
01:22:22.720 --> 01:22:26.560
I can build you on if you want but I mean it's not going to be a very big one I'm just going to
1076
01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:33.920
be honest it's not a big one but but you two have to yeah I'd I say this now and I say it in a
1077
01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:38.480
really positive way but I still go in the office every two three weeks just for a day I'm doing
1078
01:22:38.480 --> 01:22:46.560
about a day a week these days and when I go in it's love is see all my mates all my old colleagues
1079
01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:53.520
and that's what stuff but I do feel like I'm visiting and and you know see the business behaving
1080
01:22:53.520 --> 01:23:01.920
breathing moving in a way that I recognize but I and maybe I even played a part in back in the day
1081
01:23:01.920 --> 01:23:10.560
but it's now its own it's got its own identity yeah it's the clumsy analogy would be yeah we've
1082
01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:16.960
I raised the child to the point where it's now it's maybe it's yeah ready to go out go to university
1083
01:23:16.960 --> 01:23:23.520
or go to it's your first job or move out and still haven't and still recognising but they are
1084
01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:28.720
their own they're grown up they're a grown up it's a grown up man it's a grown up it can function
1085
01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:32.080
on its own it doesn't need you around it it's nice to have the advice every now and again if we
1086
01:23:32.080 --> 01:23:35.040
need it but fundamentally it's going to make its own decisions it's going to spend its own money
1087
01:23:35.040 --> 01:23:39.200
it's going to be a grown up business right I mean that's that's what you've built is is a business
1088
01:23:39.200 --> 01:23:45.200
that is has grown up and that's why I use that phrase and I think that's why I think this book
1089
01:23:45.200 --> 01:23:52.480
is so important and because there's there's actually so few books about EOT's out there
1090
01:23:52.480 --> 01:23:56.240
the ones that are out there that I've seen are written by accountants and lawyers which you know
1091
01:23:56.240 --> 01:23:59.360
unless you're particularly struggling to sleep at night you probably shouldn't
1092
01:24:01.120 --> 01:24:04.320
but this one's written by somebody who's been on the journey and actually been through the
1093
01:24:04.320 --> 01:24:08.160
process and I think that's what makes it your perspective so unique and I think your frameworks
1094
01:24:08.160 --> 01:24:13.600
great I mean you're you're nine part frameworks brilliant but our boarder prefers you've you've
1095
01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:18.080
walked the talk this isn't a let me give you a perspective from an advisor's point of view this is a
1096
01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:22.720
let me tell you what it felt like let me tell you when I told the team let me tell you why I told
1097
01:24:22.720 --> 01:24:26.480
them that at this point in the journey and I think if for anyone who's listening to this podcast
1098
01:24:27.360 --> 01:24:32.720
and you're considering an exit strategy I would highly recommend that you get the book I would
1099
01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:36.800
highly recommend that you and we'll obviously put links below the podcast and the show notes
1100
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:40.880
and stuff too where people can get the book I mean this I know you've got specific pages because
1101
01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:44.880
yourself publishing this one which is which is great and I love that I love the fact that you're
1102
01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:50.400
doing that as well but I think for me it's about get educated right get educated and I'll just
1103
01:24:50.400 --> 01:24:54.160
understand this as a process I can't believe you didn't come up with a third P by the way instead
1104
01:24:54.160 --> 01:24:57.920
of communication there must have been a third P in there somewhere it made like come on process
1105
01:24:59.920 --> 01:25:05.840
I don't know there must be a third P in there but I think I think what's exciting about this
1106
01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:11.280
book and when you sent it to me oh it's like right this is somebody who's really thought out the
1107
01:25:11.280 --> 01:25:14.400
the journey that for you was like two or three years correct it was like a two or three
1108
01:25:14.400 --> 01:25:18.480
a journey that you went on to do this it wasn't like we did it you know there was a lot of learning
1109
01:25:18.480 --> 01:25:24.000
that you want to talk yeah and yeah one bit that again was one of the reasons I went down down
1110
01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:29.040
down to publishing it yeah myself is there's a lot of emotional stuff in there yeah but the stuff
1111
01:25:29.040 --> 01:25:36.480
that people never talk about the the the feeling of of grief at the at certain points you know
1112
01:25:36.480 --> 01:25:41.520
sort of it was quite I remember the the deal day and the lovely party we had as a group of people
1113
01:25:42.080 --> 01:25:47.440
and the relief and the celebration but there were moments where I thought sugar me what do I do now
1114
01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:53.040
yeah identity shift right it's like well suddenly you're not the CEO of a two and a half three
1115
01:25:53.040 --> 01:25:57.280
million pound grain business like who are you what what what's your role in the world and I think
1116
01:25:58.000 --> 01:26:02.240
you sort of talk about that in a way that I think it's very raw and very real and refreshing
1117
01:26:02.240 --> 01:26:09.120
there you go see three hours look on the other but I think you know the reason why I wanted to
1118
01:26:09.120 --> 01:26:13.120
have this conversation firstly I just want to listen to my honor and respect the the conversation
1119
01:26:13.120 --> 01:26:16.480
because you've gone into places and the told stories I've never heard you tell and I've told you
1120
01:26:16.480 --> 01:26:21.280
to I've heard you tell a lot of stories a lot of stories and you told what I've never heard so
1121
01:26:21.280 --> 01:26:26.560
that's so cool secondly I think you know this is the kind of book guys that if you're as I said at
1122
01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:29.680
the beginning even if you're just starting out it's going to inspire you to play a bigger game to
1123
01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:33.680
think about the bigger possibilities and I think it's both remembering and reminding people that
1124
01:26:34.480 --> 01:26:39.760
this was an 18 year old journey for you from when you started on the kitchen table with that
1125
01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:45.280
shall I back myself moment to when to when you you know you sold the business to the team and
1126
01:26:45.280 --> 01:26:49.360
there's all the you know there's highs and lows across those 18 but don't underestimate don't
1127
01:26:49.360 --> 01:26:53.840
pressure yourself to try and make a fortune in a year or two it's like look this is a journey go
1128
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:59.680
on the journey this is a vehicle to exit to get educated about whether it's one you are actually
1129
01:26:59.680 --> 01:27:04.080
wants to use and if it is and even if your vision is three years from now four years from now
1130
01:27:04.080 --> 01:27:08.960
and then my my suggestion is to start investing in building your team and investing in the people
1131
01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:13.760
now if that's your exit strategy if that's the way out for you what would you say what's the
1132
01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:17.360
final takeable to kind of wrap this all up nicely in the bow in terms of obviously there's a
1133
01:27:17.360 --> 01:27:20.880
cool to action people can go get your book which is great we'll put the links down below
1134
01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:24.960
I'm highly you know recommend they follow you on LinkedIn or connect with you and
1135
01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:29.600
and those but what would you say to an entrepreneur who's sitting there and thinking shall
1136
01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:34.720
is an EOT a good thing shall I look why would I do that what would be your final kind of take away
1137
01:27:34.720 --> 01:27:39.120
thoughts for them what would you like to leave people with from your whole journey not just
1138
01:27:39.120 --> 01:27:43.680
I mean not just the ending of it but what's what's your kind of now you're reflecting back on
1139
01:27:43.680 --> 01:27:50.560
that journey what's your take away I think there's probably there's probably a need to look
1140
01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:55.120
in the mirror to a certain extent and it's very difficult to do that when you sat at your desk
1141
01:27:55.120 --> 01:28:00.000
in the middle of phone calls and emails and all of the stuff that is part of day to day life
1142
01:28:00.560 --> 01:28:07.600
kind of get away and just kind of allow the dust and all of my the my asthma in the
1143
01:28:07.920 --> 01:28:13.440
brings to just kind of settle down a little bit and just figure out what you're in it for
1144
01:28:14.240 --> 01:28:23.440
yeah I I love I still love but I suddenly loved my time at i4 and and I could very happily with
1145
01:28:23.440 --> 01:28:28.800
Luke and Lloyd doing all of the carrying have sat back and and just kind of enjoyed being part
1146
01:28:28.800 --> 01:28:33.280
of this very successful business but not necessarily being the one with all the stress and
1147
01:28:33.280 --> 01:28:39.200
what have you the reason for me stepping out in the way that I did was that I realised that
1148
01:28:40.240 --> 01:28:47.920
that chapter's over and and I I needed to need this to step out properly but in a way that
1149
01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:55.280
wasn't stitching up the people that I loved and supported me in the way that they did
1150
01:28:56.240 --> 01:29:03.680
and but I yeah it comes away of a responsibility I needed to get it straight in my own head
1151
01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:09.760
and of all the things that the pandemic did the back is yet after after all of that the stuff that
1152
01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:15.440
happened there was a moment after it where everyone went we got through that and off we went
1153
01:29:15.440 --> 01:29:21.680
where I thought through that I think now is the right time and there's some certain things my
1154
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:29.920
father died around that time as well and um dad yeah dad was poorly for a period of time
1155
01:29:30.880 --> 01:29:37.760
but leading up to that he his life was work yeah like my mom and yeah but his his identity was
1156
01:29:37.760 --> 01:29:43.280
identity it was links very much to his role and his position as a very senior person in the
1157
01:29:43.280 --> 01:29:48.480
finance business and you kind of go and then he retired and then kind of had nothing other than
1158
01:29:48.560 --> 01:29:55.440
holidays because he had no other hobbies or passions and I didn't want to be in that position and
1159
01:29:55.440 --> 01:30:00.960
I thought I can at the age of 55 start tapering out I've still got other things I want to do
1160
01:30:01.920 --> 01:30:08.880
writing the EOT book but there's a novel due for you know publication soon and another one in
1161
01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:14.720
in the works a whole bunch of other stuff I want to do you know sort of from a health perspective
1162
01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:19.840
and with Lisa and the kids as they go to university a whole bunch of stuff and it was like
1163
01:30:21.040 --> 01:30:24.240
I now know the time is right I've looked in the mirror along enough
1164
01:30:25.040 --> 01:30:30.240
now how do I make it work in a in a way that's really going to kind of drive this thing forward
1165
01:30:30.240 --> 01:30:34.320
and then you look at the options and go trade sale nap done it
1166
01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:40.560
MBO or investor probably not right for us and when I shared it with Luke and lawyer
1167
01:30:41.280 --> 01:30:49.200
no it's not for us EOT that's great I I wasn't in a rush for a very large check that was the other
1168
01:30:49.200 --> 01:30:55.920
thing it was we've got a wonderful life we've got an amazing business the guys are extraordinary
1169
01:30:56.480 --> 01:31:02.560
it's a hell of a good bet why would I why would I know yeah now and love it and I love the fact
1170
01:31:02.560 --> 01:31:06.560
that you know when you set out 18 years ago you wanted to have more time with the family and you've
1171
01:31:06.640 --> 01:31:11.680
gone back to that values like actually I want to go back to that and it's about time I reconnected
1172
01:31:11.680 --> 01:31:14.880
with that and I think also you're an artist that there's a part of you that is an artist and
1173
01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:19.280
joins a creative process and when when you finish the piece of art when you finish that you you have
1174
01:31:19.280 --> 01:31:23.520
to know when to walk away and put the pain brush down so you can start the next one and I think
1175
01:31:23.520 --> 01:31:27.760
as entrepreneurs if you're in that if you've got a level of creativity and and you had which is why
1176
01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:31.760
you were initially attracted to PowerPoint in the first place and everything around playing with
1177
01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:36.320
that there's a part of you that's an artist and you can look at it and go this is done right now if
1178
01:31:36.320 --> 01:31:40.160
I keep tinkering with it it's only going to kind of I'm it's going to get worse not better and I
1179
01:31:40.160 --> 01:31:44.720
need to let somebody else create the next version of this and I think I think that's I think that's
1180
01:31:44.720 --> 01:31:49.120
a skill set in itself and there's some brilliant questions in the book as well that take people
1181
01:31:49.120 --> 01:31:53.680
through evaluating whether it's the right time to go or not and I think they're really and
1182
01:31:53.680 --> 01:31:57.280
seriously required reading for anybody who's running a business to have those questions and go
1183
01:31:57.280 --> 01:32:00.960
I mean I'm feeling bad let's just run through the questions where am I at so isn't so I'm
1184
01:32:00.960 --> 01:32:05.360
you're a legend as always sir it's you were a fact one of the first recipients of our brand
1185
01:32:05.360 --> 01:32:10.080
you've grown up as it's awarded the Christmas dinner a couple years ago for completing it's not
1186
01:32:10.080 --> 01:32:16.160
it's not even it's not here it's an I full award so I full got it not me yeah well you collected it
1187
01:32:16.160 --> 01:32:21.120
right but you know I think you've done that entire journey and I just thank you for being so open
1188
01:32:21.120 --> 01:32:25.200
and transparent it's been an awesome conversation I've loved it genuinely loves hanging out spending
1189
01:32:25.200 --> 01:32:29.760
time with you it's been a pleasure to be involved in the different stages of you know coaching you
1190
01:32:29.760 --> 01:32:33.840
personally working with the team working with Luke and Lloyd yeah and it's great to see that
1191
01:32:33.840 --> 01:32:37.520
you know I forgot it's from strength to strength and that you've got a plan and I look forward to
1192
01:32:37.520 --> 01:32:42.480
seeing what you're going to create going forward and certainly reading some fiction because storytelling
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is definitely a skill that you have and I look forward to seeing what you do with it so yeah if you
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haven't grabbed a copy of his book the guide to transition from Boston benefactor highly recommended
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click the links below or grab it and read it on holiday or wherever you have a spare moment but it
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isn't absolutely brilliant read and well worth being one of those books that you come back to
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at different times on the journey so I'm going to listen thanks ever so much for being on the
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Granite Business Podcast has been awesome to have you my friend thanks Paul take care bye for now
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make sure if you got value out of this that you subscribe like it or share it with two other people
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in your network that you think would get value from this conversation and we'll see you on the next one
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you've been listening to the Granite Business Podcast with your coach Paul Avins
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you