The Mind On Overload

Garon: Hello and welcome to the Green Room Podcast. I'm your host, Garon Green, and this space is for conversations about what it actually means to be human. Not the polished version we show the world, not the job title, not the social media profile, not the automated answer we give when somebody asks, How you? But the person underneath it all. The experiences that shape us, the things we carry quietly. The losses, the fears, the relationships, the mistakes, the turning points, and importantly, the things that help us find our way forward. And as a counsellor, I've learned something through sitting opposite people and hearing their stories. Sometimes the most powerful thing we can do isn't immediately search for the answer, sometimes it's simply to ask a better question. And today's question is one. I think many of us will recognize what happens when the human mind becomes like an overloaded computer, too many tabs open, too many processes running in the background, and seemingly no way to switch off. Maybe you know that feeling. You're physically exhausted, but your brain is wide awake. You're replaying a conversation from yesterday, trying to predict what might happen tomorrow, analysing something somebody said. And questioning something you did, wondering whether you made the right decision, and trying to desperately find certainty in a situation where certainty simply doesn't exist. One thought becomes another, one worry creates another question, one what if creates ten more. And strangely, the harder you try to stop thinking, the louder everything seems to become. One of those things that fascinates me about anxiety and overthinking is that underneath all that noise, our minds are often attempting to do something incredibly human. Protect us. The mind predicts, it scans, it remembers, it searches for patterns and repeatedly it asks two incredible powerful words. What if? What if I get this wrong? What if I they leave? What if I fail? What if something happens? And what if I can't claim? Suddenly, we're no longer responding simply to what is happening. We've responded to everything that might happen. How do I get rid of my thoughts? And perhaps the better question is how do I develop a different relationship with them? And that's where today's guest comes in. Today, my guest is Brian Sacheta. Brian is an author, blogger, and software developer, and the founder of Get out of your own head. Brian has taken something from his background in computer science and applied it to something considerably more complicated, the human mind. And his book, Get Out of Your Head, a Toolkit for Living Without and Overcoming Anxiety, explores practical approaches to anxiety and the patterns that keep us caught inside. Fear and overthinking. And his second book, Get Out of Your Head, Volume 2, Navigating the Abyss of Depression, takes that conversation even deeper. Looking at depression and how our internal state can influence the way we think, feel, experience the world around us. What immediately interests me about Brian's work was the unusual bridge between worlds, technology and psychology. Think about your computer for a moment. 50 tabs open, programs running in the background, notifications constantly appearing. Eventually the system begins to slow down. And sometimes I think the human beings aren't so different. We've got yesterday open in one tab, tomorrow open in another, work, money, relationships, loss, fear, and self-doubt. There may be an old program running that was installed years ago. So a belief, a fear, a painful experience, something we learned about. ourselves, then wonder why we're mentally exhausted. We're going to explore anxiety, overthinking, possibly rumination, intrusivce, uncertainty, reassurance, and inner critic. And I want to explore an even deeper question: if our minds can learn patterns that keep us trapped, so they can also learn new patterns that help us move forward. So Brian, first forget the books for a moment, forget the software, forget the professional biography. Let's start, first of all, welcoming you to the Green Room Podcast. It's a true honour and I'm really, really keen to see how our show goes today with yourself with that amazing knowledge you got bouncing around in your mind there.
Brian Sachetta: Thank you, Garon. I'm excited to be here. I think we'll have a great chat. We we think similarly, so I think that's gonna come out.
Garon: Mm-hmm. You you said yeah you just move an apartment at the moment, and how are you doing at the moment?
Brian Sachetta: I'm doing pretty well, thank you.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I am trying to focus on my own writing and my activities related to, you know, the the authorship and all that. And as I do that and I make time for the things that matter to me: writing, podcasting, blogging, listening to music, moving my body, my mental state usually improves. So right now, I'm leaning into those things and things are going well.
Garon: Excellent. It's nice when we can pull that balance back, isn't it? And we're like, I'm doing it. It's kinda like riding a bicycle without the stabilizers again. It's good to know that you're in that good place, Brian. I caught you at the right time. So so Brian, don't let's go back. So before get out of your head, before the writing, before the software career as well, before, you know, people who knew about your work, who was Brian? you know, in the earlier years, you know, what what was he like? Who was Brian?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, early years I would say I had a ton of emotions and I didn't know what to do with them and I didn't know how to make sense of them. And I would really use music as an outlet for them because I didn't know what to do, right? And this, you know, I I'll talk about these stories on basically every podcast, but it's never to speak poorly of my own family. My family's, you know, amazing people,
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: loving people, and all that. We just didn't have the language to talk about emotions and we didn't really talk about emotions growing up. And so, you know, I think as you grow up, you you hear explicit instructions, but you also really Take in the implicit ones. And your brain is kind of scanning and saying, well, a and it's not always directly doing this, but it's doing it on a very subconscious level, is saying, Hey, you know, my parents don't always express the emotions that I'm feeling, or it really all
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: that many emotions. Therefore, maybe I shouldn't express those. Maybe it's not right to. And so as a kid, that was challenging, where, like I said, I dealt with all these emotions and I didn't know what to do with them. I didn't have That outlet for them. So I'm I turned to music, and music became the thing that allowed me to process some of the emotions. But I also look back, and you know, some of this is is more recent insights that have allowed me to see the system at a deeper level, right? is I've done a ton of therapy the last couple of years, which is funny because you know, you think like I along the journey, I've thought to myself, well, I've written two books, I must have it all figured out. And I guess news flashes, you kind of never figure it all out, but you do figure out more and more as you go and you do more work. And some of the work that I did recently had showed me like, cause it's funny when you talk to a therapist or, you know, a trusted loved one or somebody who respects the space and is just like, Hey, I have to tell you something, you know? because they can see something that you cannot see because you are inside the system, right? And I don't mean that. In some diabolical way. I mean like you're inside the bottle, you can't read the label. That's just how it goes,
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: right? So I would be doing therapy and they'd be like, you do realize you make yourself so small and you never speak up for your own needs, right? And I'm like, my God, I do, yeah, I do do that. I had no idea, right? And that's the invaluable part of therapy is be beginning to be able to see. The unseen things in your life, the quote unquote water that you swim in, right? And as soon as you see that, you're like, my God, I've been swimming in it my whole freaking life.
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: And that has many downstream effects, including anxiety, depression, so on and so forth. That again, it's funny because I wrote the books thinking, you know, at the time, I'm like, Yep, I've got this figured out. And I actually feel like I have figured the most out after I wrote the book. So
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: That's who I was as a kid. And now I'm really going back and trying to piece all that together and look at some of my memories in a new lens and say,
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: that all makes way more sense now. That's how I got to be the way that I am or was, and that's why I kept perpetuating some of those patterns and kept living in anxiety all the time.
Garon: Sure. I mean, God, what a hell of a journey and awareness you got there. Plus obviously writing your books and and well done with the therapy, by the way. And you know, being a counselor myself, I always say to people that, you know, therapy isn't for everybody, but it it's an amazing way of what I'd love to be in the therapists opposite you, hearing you, you know, kind of expressing where you are and and having those penny drop moments. I mean, really well done on the books. And again, I I can really relate to that. It's a story I told on on one of my previous podcasts. is I remember I was only about six months in clean from my cocaine addiction. I I was helping to drop drug ins drug and alcohol services in a drop in center. I was literally just about to start my therapy training, so I knew nothing. But I had this passion about me. And it's really interesting what what you said about you know, not really knowing much, even though you wrote your books, you had it in your mind that no, I know this. I I I've I've got this to the T until being opening up and pointing in a different direction with a therapist. And I remember this guy took me aside, Nick his name was his a qualified therapist at the time. And he took me aside and he said to me, he goes, you know, he goes, I consider you're quite, you know, compassionate and and how you are with the service users. But he said he goes, just remember one thing. He goes, learn to help you before you help others. And at at first, I'm not gonna lie, Brian, I was annoyed by that. It took me probably a couple of months to get my head around it. Plus I was just getting ready to start basic, you know, counselling training at the time. And in my mind, I found it personal because I thought What do you mean? You know, I thought I've lost my friends for overdoses and suicide. I've been in my own addiction and I've been to that dark place. So, you know, I've got all this life experience, so I must be able to help everybody. So that's where my mindset was until I started reflecting on that. And I did I always remember I I thanked him. I said, thank you for the other month. And he goes, What do you mean? I said, You really give me a chance to reflect on that I can't save everybody. As is as he said to me, he goes, Look, learn to help you before you help others. And he goes, get it in your head. He goes, in this field. This funding, and he goes, You won't save everyone. And that really stuck with me. And like yourself, then I started to learn. So I mean, really well done with with obviously diving into therapy. I'm all for males and and mental health, as a as I'm sure you know. And and I really love it that you kind of took all this life knowledge and wrote into a book, plus going into this huge self-discovery of yourself, and obviously, you know, being but would would you say you were naturally analytical, you know, then as a youngster? 'Cause I mean your your careers well, blows me away really, especially with my mind. I mean, were you naturally analytical kind of even back then? 'Cause it sounds like you was quite aware as a child.
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, no doubt. I think, honestly, like piece a piece of the therapy that came through, right, is like if you live in that environment, and again, it like I I had a great childhood. I really did, you know, like we had a swimming pool, we had an awesome backyard, like my parents worked super hard, they're very loving. They just, you know, they didn't necessarily have all the same exact tools that maybe, you know, I I would have I would have loved to have and In an environment where there's not a lot of communication, there's not a lot of emotion, there's not a lot of explicit direction as to like, hey, these things are happening, this is how you should feel, or this is how you should not feel, or like, let's work on these emotions, right? I think my brain basically became this emotional scanner to be like, okay, if I'm not getting the explicit instruction, I'm looking at my mom's face and saying, what does that look mean? Because that's the most information I'm going to be given on an emotional level and that wired me to be incredibly analytical.
Garon: find out fascinating as well as a young age noting that difference and a lot of guys I've worked in IT or engineering side of things. It's so interesting. You guys say very similar things and I find that fascinating how you how your mind's built like that. Something I could speak to you for hours on endo for Brian. I find that really fascinating and recognize that and how interesting 'cause that's when you start questioning more, don't you? Where you start and I find that so fascinating. I'd I'd speak to you for hours about this. so obviously you were somebody who wanted to understand how things work, someone who started obviously noticing the patterns, started to learn to obviously try and figure out and solve problems, if you like, or or mentally took things apart if to understand them. And and when you look back at the younger Brian, when you look at that younger version of yourself, what what do you understand about him that perhaps you couldn't understand at the time?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I think a lot of those things we we kind of touched on already, right? Of I remember, for example, right, I talked about music. Like I was always into heavy music. I remember like
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: sixth grade, I got the you know, the the Lincoln Park,
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: debut album and I would blast that stuff in my headphones and
Garon: Hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I remember family members would be like, What are you listening to? Like this is like, you know, suicide music or whatever. And it only got way heavier from there. I'd be listening to death metal and metal core in high school.
Garon: Wow.
Brian Sachetta: And the thing that was challenging was like at the time, I was I was kind of embarrassed because people would find my computer, they'd find my iPod, and they'd be like, What do you listen to this crap for? You know, like do you Do you want to kill yourself? And I'm like, no, like, I don't know how to explain it, but this is the only thing that makes any sense to me, you know? And looking back, kind of to answer your question, looking back, I'm like, I think I connected with that so much because I was in so much pain for most of my childhood. And that was a safe space to be like, these same folks, you know, not all metal is pain, but like. These same folks are talking about struggle and depression and anxiety and, you know, the angst of life and all that. And I'm like, these people have been there before and they're speaking a language that I've never heard spoken in actual life. And that draws me in. And now I can connect those dots and be like, that makes perfect sense, you know? And even if it's not necessarily the explicit emotions of the lyrics, it might be the riffs, you know, the drums. I get into it
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: and I just My body connects to it and I'm I literally have chills right now as I say this, even
Garon: Ha ha ha.
Brian Sachetta: though like what I'm saying is not all that profound. You know, that's just how my body's wired.
Garon: Sure. Yeah. I find out I said I can so relate to the music before our show I was playing around with some music as I said during and I've got a real nice 'cause I'm more into house music, which I have been for years. I l I love a little s little bit of synthwave at the moment. I'm really enjoying it. It's not as heavy as Lincoln Park, mind you. A few of my friends, older friends used to listen to it. I could tolerate it but it was too heavy for me, Brian. But it's really interesting that you know, you was younger, that was stuff that you'd listen to, whether that was form of comfort or Or something which you felt understood by. And I again I find that really interesting. Everyone finds their own little place, or whether it's music, whether it's a room, that that element of comfort, if you like, which they seek within that, where everyone else around them saying, Why are you listening to this? and not really understanding what you was gaining from that. I find that really, really fascinating. And Was there kind of like a particular period? Because obviously you've been speaking about your books a lot in regards to anxiety. And as you know yourself, I'm I wouldn't say I'm definitely far from an expert. I'm somebody who's working with his anxiety, I should say. was there like I've always remember myself the first time I had a panic attack and my anxiety peaked, I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. I mean, many people tell me I didn't even know what it was. I mean, I went from know being a DJ and producer, I was involved with substance misuse. So I'll travel, have confidence. I think most of it was a cocaine giving me confidence. To that to somebody who locked themselves away and their mama, you know, moved back in with their parents and I locked myself away in the room for about six months. And and I always remember going to the shops the first time, my anxiety peaking. I thought everyone was looking at me. And I generally didn't honestly being a guy as well, young guy in what was like late twenties. I didn't know what was going on, you know, it and it was such a interesting when I look back now with coping mechanisms, how I can kind of regulate my emotions better than what I did before. I didn't even know what anxiety was. So was there like a particular period where anxiety become more than like your typical ordinary worry, if you like?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean, in some ways that's exactly why I wrote my first book was I had so many instances of that feeling over such a long period of time that it just became my battle, you know? And I said to myself, Okay, I've I've stepped over from I'm a little anxious or even pretty anxious about some specific trigger, you know, let's say a job interview, a basketball game, a track meet, something like that. to I just feel like I'm in this very heightened state of anxiety really, really often. And it's holding me back from living the life that I want to. And it just, it's miserable to live in that state all the time. So so many of those stories are woven into my first book. I can give a couple for sure. I mean, the inciting moments I'll give two is, you know, I was Going on a few dates with this girl that I went to high school with. So I'm a senior in in high school. And things started to get between us, like, you know, the the the relationship was starting to fray a little bit. I'm like, okay, it seems like she's pulling away. It seems like she's not as interested. She doesn't always respond to my instant messages, whatever, you know. And obviously AIM was a long time ago, but anyway. So I finally get her to agree to go out on another date, but I'm very nervous because I'd be I think I'd be nervous anyway, because you know, relationships matter a lot to me. At this point, I don't have much relationship experience in my life. I don't always I didn't really know what I was doing when I was on the date, but like was trying to figure it out, you know. So we go on this date and the vibes are still not great. And we end up going back to my parents' house and we're like sitting on the couch watching a movie, and I'm sitting there like, I'm already anxious, but then I'm like, okay, I gotta ask her. Like, I gotta like broach the subject. And I'm not saying that I needed to do that, but that's how I felt, right? I was like, I gotta broach the subject and be like, what's going on between us? You know, is this going anywhere or whatever? And as I start thinking about that, I get incredibly nervous. And like you said, right, where you kind of think you're having a heart attack is I fall into
Garon: Mm.
Brian Sachetta: this panic attack where my mind is racing, my heart is also racing, I'm sweating. I have no idea what's going on. And I'm also like, I'm still with this girl and I'm still in this uncertain situation ship, you know. So I have no idea what to do about any of it. And eventually I was just like, okay, you know, I'm I'm so nervous, but try to calm down, try to breathe or something, you know?
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: And I don't at the time I didn't even have the term panic attack like in my lexicon. I just was like, this is the most nervous I've ever been in my life. And so I ended up asking her. And again, like I'm not saying that I needed to do that or I at the very least, I w it was not smooth the way that I did it. Right. If you start having a conversation and then you eventually are kind of like, So yeah, where do you see this going? Or whatever. Like, I just kind of threw it up as in like I was like, you know? And she was just like, What was that? And you're shaking. Like, are you okay? And I'm like, I'm having a pan, you know, I I didn't say it out loud, but I'm I'm like, I'm having some sort of nervous breakdown. I have no idea what's going on. And long story short, she kind of tells me she's like seeing somebody else, and I'm heartbroken. And she's she was like, Well, you know, like I'm seeing both of you or something like that. And I and I was just like such an 18-year-old dude. I was like, Well, no, it's him or me, you know. And I was like, I
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: was just so like, I was just distraught. And she's like, Well, yeah, then we probably shouldn't see each other. Like, and also like you should figure out what's going on with your shirt. Cause like your heart is like pounding through it. And I'm just like beside myself, okay, yeah, sure, sounds good. I'll take you home. I just drove her home and like that was the end of it, right? But I woke up or I I get I guess I went to bed that night and I was like, that was horrifying and the relationship is done. I have all these emotions. I don't know what to do with them. I don't know if I'm gonna experience another one of those acute situations of of intense anxiety. So I don't know. Should I be like going on Google and trying to figure out what that was? Should I be trying to figure out how to get through the next one? I was torn between like stuff it down and investigate it. And I kind of, I kind of stuffed it down. You know, I mostly did that. It it it ate away at me in the sense of I was like, I don't, I haven't resolved it. I don't know what I'm gonna do the next time, but I don't want to think about it. And so six months later or so. I guess maybe it maybe yeah, four or five, go off to college and obviously, like as I said, I I've I've been thinking about it. Even if I haven't resolved it, I've been thinking about it and it's really at the forefront of my mind of okay, relationship equals I'm gonna have one of these nervous breakdowns. So like I don't know what to do about it. And I meet this girl, she comes over and I mean, like we had hung out a couple of times, you know, she was in my class and we had like done homework together or whatever. And she comes over and I, you know, she had texted me. She's like, I'm coming over. And I could tell she had had a drink or two. And I was so nervous because I'm, you know, it's like one of the first weeks of college. We're just like freshman guys. We don't
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: have access to beer or anything like that. And I'm just like, my God, something bad's gonna happen. I wish I had had a beer like to take the edge off or whatever. She
Garon: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: comes over, lo and behold, I have another panic attack, but this one goes very poorly. And she just like freaks out on me. Because she's been drinking, you know? And she calls me all these names, she's yelling at me, and she just like runs off back to her dorm and I'm like, my God, that feels like the worst thing that could have possibly happened, you know? And so those first two panic attacks, where so like one of the tough things, right? Is like again, something bad just happened in my personal life. And yet, like, I don't even know if that's like the most important thing because I'm sitting there being like, What the heck was this nervousness thing? Like, what's wrong with me? You know? And
Garon: Mm-hmm. True.
Brian Sachetta: so those two events became really the inciting moments, the beginning of my journey to be like, listen, dude, you can't keep running away from this thing. Whatever is going on inside of you, you need to figure it out. You need to get to the bottom of it. And that really became the beginning of the journey, the point at which I I s I started walking the path to be like, what the heck is nervousness? And you know, very quickly came upon the term anxiety and panic attacks and all that. And I guess here we are, I don't know, sixteen, eighteen years later, something like that.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: So
Garon: Wow. What thanks for sharing that, Brian. I just kinda I do love if I can visualize, you know, the journey you've gone on, especially with the two relationships. I mean, one never experienced this before and at the same time obviously trying to understand it. But again, it's what we have you know, very our automatic thoughts, our cognitive distortions, and and kind of thinking about worst case scenario. But w the first time was really interesting because you obviously all this stuff was building up for you and the h you know, as we know of anxiety, i it's you know, I I always say to my clients, you know, I'll work at your pace. But sometimes we have to step across that barrier of fear to, you know, find the answers we seek. And and I find it really interesting you was at such a young age that you had all these emotions and build ups and these automatic thoughts and eventually you couldn't hold them in no more and and you just released them out to her, which again is a brave move. to make even though we didn't go on and then obviously, you know, you was told to get help and that's right. And then the second time around, even though as I say, I'm you might agree with this one always say when the anxiety gremlin jumps on our shoulder, we know it's there. What do we do? We normally don't face it, we just push it aside and keep on going as we do. But we know it's there. And it's really interesting what you done. You you highlighted it. You wanted to try and understand it but being a young guy as you know, you know, just going off straight to uni and keeping it in a hidden background if you like, but then all of a sudden triggers this surfaces again with another relationship forming. But then this time around, you know obviously having it thrown at you at the same time. So not only, you know, the anxiety peaking, the panic attacks building, plus having somebody, you know, heart rates are kind of throwing a little bit of hurt and pain at you on top of that, and then discovering, God, I need to do something about this. I need to get some help. So I mean, it it sounded like first of all you you you challenged it the best you could to release it. And then the second time round it really kicked you it down if you like. And then obviously that determination of thinking about hang a minute, how do I do this? You know, these thoughts around me. Why am I thinking of this worst case scenario? So I mean I really admire you had really two two good goes of it in life of of of trying to break through it the best you can there, Brian. I just trying to look at a I've got to step back from being a therapist. But you know, just visioning you you going through these two stages and have to, you know, drag through it, especially the second time around. I find that really quite amazing what you've done from then till now. You know, I find that quite phenomenal.
Brian Sachetta: I appreciate that. You know, I think what I would say is I do look back and I certainly give myself some credit for doing my best, you know, navigating this thing and living through, you know, challenging situations. Now, obviously, on any show, there's a lot of different listeners. I think I'm lucky enough to look back and say, like, hey, if if those panic attacks are the worst thing that ever happened to me. I lived a pretty good life, you know. but that doesn't change the fact that at that age, that's incredibly distressing to go through, you know. And another thing that I would say about it is even though I did the best that I knew how to do at the time, I would also caution listeners not to try to be a hero, you know. I this also came up in therapy, right? Which was basically like I essentially like take my problems and I say that it's my responsibility to figure them out. I can't tell anybody about them. And that comes from a a different inciting moment in my childhood. And I had to work through that, you know, to be like, my God, I didn't realize that that's a key reason why I do this thing. And now moving forward, I can be like, okay, the next time I have anxiety, like I can call somebody. I could be like, hey, having a bad day. Can you help me out or whatever? My advice to the listener is, you know, obviously again, it's some of these patterns run subconsciously and we don't see them. But I am hopefully telling you right now, right, is if you find yourself doing that hero thing as in like, I'm gonna solve this by myself, no help, I don't need to talk to anybody, it can work, but it can also be incredibly painful and take a really long time. And it's not necessary to do that exclusively. So
Garon: Sure, and that sounds like somebody from their own expertise though. I know I've done it myself, Brian, where I was aware of it, but I thought if I keep pushing, I'll be fine. And I kept it kind of in the background. The elephant in the room was there, but I wasn't ready to face it. So it's that's really interesting what you highlighted there. I really appreciate that. I mean, because obviously when we use a word like anxiety, everyone thinks they know what it looks like, if you like. But anxiety, as we know, can wear different faces. For one person, it might be panic, for somebody else, perfectionism. We've got avoidance, that's a key one. overworking, you know, difficulty sleeping. And, you know, constantly preparing for things which haven't quite happened or haven't happened yet, as we discussed briefly earlier about our automatic thoughts when they kick in, worst case scenario. and what What did that anxiety kind of look like for you, Brian? You know and and and did the people around you know? 'cause I know with childhood it you know, you sound you you know, mum and dad weren't the the backsides off to give you guys a good upbringing. But you as this child holding this stuff in, in regards to not being able to really speak to mum and dad or people didn't really get the young guy who had, you know, deaf levered playing. They didn't understand what was really going on for Brian there. What what did that anxiety? actually look like for you and you know, like I said to the people around you know.
Brian Sachetta: It's a really good question. I would say, generally speaking, most or all or most people or nobody knew. And I think that I do a good job of hiding it. And I've heard that many times in my life, but mostly recently, right? Because I have I don't know what year, but like only since starting my books, you know, when I took the step to be like, I'm gonna talk about this stuff in public spaces, did I begin to actually for the first time talk about how I was feeling internally. And then I'd talk to other people and they'd be like, you know, I listened to your book, I listened to your podcast, whatever. I had no idea that you deal with this stuff or Maybe there I have a conversation, you know, for example, right? I was on vacation with my family a couple of years ago and I was having an anxiety episode. And I again, like I I this was before the the recent breakthroughs in therapy where I'm just like, I can't, you know, I'm still holding on to this subconscious belief of these are my problems to deal with alone. I can't like bring other people in. I can't tell people what's going on. After the fact, you know, many months later, me and my parents were talking about the trip, and I was just like, Yeah, I felt so horrific on that trip. I was having some of the worst anxiety, some of the worst derealization of my life. And the again, this is not this is not a reflection on my parents because this is me, you know? And they were like, We had no idea. And I'm like, Yeah, I I I hide it well. I I hold it in pretty well. And so Yeah, most people don't know or or haven't known along the way. It's starting to change, you know, because I'm I just don't care anymore. You know, you get to the point where you're like, dude, if if if nothing feels real for like days on end, that's a horrible place to be. Would you rather hold on to that or hold on or or or talk about it, you know, and be like, look, I'm having a bad day. Can somebody help me out? You know? And that's the like the one of the craziest things that I learned in therapy was like. Even though you're not always consciously making that choice and being like, Do I want derealization or do I want, you know, to talk about my feelings, you are doing that on some level. And once you see that choice, even if it's implicit, right, you're like, my God, I'm that afraid of talking about what I'm actually feeling. That is insane.
Garon: That's really that's really interesting as well, especially with the gaining insight and then being on a family holiday and you had to white knuckle ride that while you was away. I I you know, being somebody who who works with his own anxiety, I I can only imagine how how exhausting that must have been for you. And again, how scared we are to you know, I'm not saying that it's for some people it is scary to go into therapy, but so many males I've noticed in regards to that how scared they were to be able to say, look, this is where I am, this is how vulnerable I am. How can you help me? And and for me, hearing a guy do that, that's one of the most bravest moves any guy can make. And like like what you said earlier in regards to the listeners, you know, if there's a guy out there at the moment just white knuckling it if you like, like Brian has done. I mean, you you can reach out and get help. And I'm not sure of about you, Brian, but I was absolutely petrified all those years back when I went to therapy. I actually pulled over what I can remember about two or three times in my car, having panic attacks, debating to turn back home so I could get Back to my safe zone, you know, it was so hard. And I think I always remember walking into I've mentioned this on my previous podcast, is I remember sat there waiting, and those 10 minutes of the longest 10 minutes of life until I that door opened and everything went in slow motion. But again, that's another story there. And I mean, for you to white-knuckle that out for that holiday and then finally opening up to your parents to say. you know, I I was really anxious for help for all that. And again, that's such a powerful and brave thing for anyone to be able to do. And I could imagine some element of relief for you for holding this stuff in for so long as well. it i i it's so mentally exhausting in for us, isn't it? When we we're trying to understand this ourselves and and trying to put on that brave mask, if you like, and and we kind of pretend we're the Brian that people expect to see, but deep down the Brian's white knuckle in the best he can to kind of ride out through this holiday. So I I can only imagine what that was like for you, Brian. I I really can. And and well done for you for reaching out and having the courage to be able to do that. I mean, so obviously with kind of functioning externally, if you like. Well internally there was a completely different conversation happening. And that's something I I think's you know is is really important because somebody can go to work, like we we can laugh, we can socialize, appear confident. I I could imagine that's some of the things you was putting out there on your break, Brian, and and still go home struggling enormously inside, you know, they're definitely in their own head. And looking back, what What what do you wish somebody had noticed about you? Because l like yourself, for years I was so great at behinding behinding who I was beyond this mask and and as you know, we learned to function with it the best we can. What what do you wish somebody w hadda noticed about you in that time, Brian?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah. See, this is fascinating because like one of the reasons that I love podcasts is they're off the cuff. And, you know, when you're kind of put on the spot to give an answer, you pull things out that it it basically like podcasting kind of becomes a a therapy in and of itself for me. And I remember this memory. I was in fifth grade. I was really nervous. I don't even know what I was nervous about. I could I could make a guess. But I was nervous about something at school. I don't know if I had, you know, said something on AIM and I was afraid that, you know, even if I just used a swear. It was something stupid. You know, it wasn't like
Garon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I didn't do anything nefarious. It was just like, I think I was afraid that I I, you know, talked bad about somebody or something on AIM and that it was gonna make its way back to that person or the principal or whatever. That's where my mind goes. But anyway, I was very nervous. And one of the only times in my life that anybody noticed it and and again it's I th none of this has to do with my parents, this has to do with me. because of how I would hide my anxiety was my dad was like, hey, what's up? Because we're eating breakfast or whatever. He's like making, you know, cutting up fruit and and all that. And he's in he's in the kitchen. I'm I'm right next to it in the dining room, but like or the at the kitchen table, let's just say. And he's like, What's up, man? You look you seem like off. Like, what's going on? And he used to make orange juice every morning for us. And I remember I was like so nervous that I I didn't even mean to, but I knocked my my orange juice onto off the table onto the carpet. And I just blamed it on that. I was like, see, look at that. Like, man, you know, now we have this problem. Like, you know, whatever. And we just kind of moved on because we cleaned up the orange juice and we had this diversion or whatever. And I guess to answer your question, right, is like I keep coming back to the idea, right? Of like I hid things very well. So it was very hard to see the signals that I was giving because I wasn't really given any, you know? But there were a few times in my life, the orange juice example being one of them that somebody in my family picked up on something. And look again, like Yeah, my parents are great, loving people. They work super hard. and they're not doctors, they're not psychiatrists, you know what I mean? So I don't ex I wouldn't expect them to be like, hey, we we picked up on all these signals, especially ones that you weren't really sending. But if I guess, you know, in a perfect world, right, in theory, if we went back and there were more instances of the orange juice example, that would have been cool, right? Because it eventually at some point I think something would have cracked and I would have had to be like. Yeah, I'm nervous about this thing at school. And then we just talk about it, you know? Cause like
Garon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: one of one and again, I'm not not saying that my parents have all the lexicon for it or anything like that, but like they're understanding people, they're loving people. they might not always know, like, okay, this is what anxiety is, this is what a panic attack is, whatever. they might not always be able to relate to it fully, but like they're not gonna be like, that's nothing, you know what I mean, or whatever, right? So like I wish that I allowed for those conversations to happen more. 'Cause like there's empathy there, I just didn't really allow for it to to manifest.
Garon: Sure. I mean what what an amazing thing what we do, especially with anxiety and and obviously dad's starting to pick up on something there and obviously through panic knocking your juice over. And like what you said was perfect when you said about that diversion, you know, even though it was possibly an accident, but at the same time, it's like, we got out of that one because we haven't got her explained. So Dad was obviously poking in the right area, and and again, obviously what we tend to do, you know, we can respond with frustration, anger, you know, because below that surface of that anger iceberg, as we know, there's all sorts of elements there, you know, fear, worry, you know, stress. There's all this stuff we hind below that surface, if you like, and we you we see that tip of that iceberg. And below the surface there's so many of these different feelings which are going on around yourselves. And obviously You obviously you know we obviously wish someone did notice. So Dad was obviously poking and prodding there and then obviously we looked at that kind of kind of avoidance, if you like, that obviously frustrated, knocked the juice on the room, swept underneath the carpet, okay, we're gonna carry on if you like. And your your background is obviously analytical. You're a software developer. This blows my mind here, Brian, by the way. And you're trained to identify problems. And you know, I've worked with a lot of s guys, males especi especially, you know, software developers. I'm guys work very similar, but some of the stuff you tell me just p I always say to me, you you may as well speak to me in Chinese because I don't know what you're talking about. So bear with me on this. So you're you're trained to identify problems, understanding systems, finding solutions. And that's incredibly useful when you're dealing with technology. But our emotional lives don't always follow the same rules. And would you say, obviously with that that that software engineered mind which you've got, I mean, you know, having that developing mind which you have. I mean, you guys are used to fixing problems, switching on and getting the job done. I I think that's what I find fascinating about you guys, especially when I've worked with guys in therapy who work in a similar field too. Once they get it, they're just gone. And I'm like, they structure and move so fast and I'm I'm sure you're very similar in that way. So Did you try to kind of problem solve your anxiety, if you like? Did you ever believe that there must be one answer I'm missing here? And and and if I could just find it, everything would finally be okay. Because, you know, something I've noticed through my therapy work is that people who are very good at solving external problems could sometimes turn that ab same ability inward. And I I find that fascinating. You know, why why am I feeling this? How do I fix this? And why haven't I fixed fixed it yet. W you know, what does this feeling mean? And and I mean and before long we're thinking about, you know, then we're worrying about our worrying if you like. Then perhaps we're judging ourselves for feeling so anxious. So, you know we're Would you obviously with yourself, would you find out that's what you tend to do, you know, especially when you started digging in, you know, with your anxiety, your thoughts and obviously looking at as a a a system if you like. Would you say you started doing that?
Brian Sachetta: Yes, I'm a little speechless because I'm like, my god, you just explained and and like I'm I'm trying to find the right word, right? Cause like I I know it too. It's not like I'm like, this is the first time I've ever heard it, but I'm like, you just nailed basically ten years of my life slash my first book, right? Was
Garon: yeah.
Brian Sachetta: you know, have this panic attack. I go off and I'm like, well, two panic attacks, and I'm like, I need to figure out what causes panic attacks, and I need to find the silver bullet that makes them go away forever, and that will be that. And I carried that narrative throughout my life for a long time. I used a couple different methods that I thought were gonna be the solution ended up not being the solution. Like for example, you know, you I think you learn or you hear a lot about like creative visualization, seeing the outcome that you want. And I read a couple books early on in my anxiety journey, you know, like The Secret and Law of Attraction and stuff like that.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: And so I'm like, okay, here we go. Just visualize yourself, not being nervous, going off to that date, going off to that job interview.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: Do it, you know, knocking it out of the park, doing very well. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, as an 18-year-old kid, I'm like, I've been trying this, hasn't worked yet. I
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: must be doing something wrong. You know, it it must be me. It must not it can't be the strategy. Like this best selling author who sold millions of copies, like, they're not wrong. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that they're in p like explicitly inherently wrong. I'm just saying that, you know, for me, what I found was when it comes to anxiety, Visualization has its pitfalls. And some of the reason for that is like every time you're revisiting that thing that makes you anxious, you're therefore revisiting the anxiety and you're bringing that feeling back up in your body. Right. So when you tell yourself, I'm going off to that job interview and I'm not anxious, the anxiety is part of that exercise, you know, part of that mental projection. And so I tried that exercise for or that practice for. close to a decade being like, I must still be doing this wrong. What is going on? Eventually I got to the point of seeing that like, look, I again I'm not saying that visualization can't be helpful for some folks, but I'm like, I think when you're trying to avoid something, that is much different than trying to get something. and with the anxiety, those two things are wrapped up in each other, right? You want to do well in the job interview, but doing well in the job interview is predicated on not having anxiety, at least For you or for the anxious person, you know? And it's very hard to pick those two things apart. So I used that tactic for like a decade. And eventually I just got to the point of being like, I have run this pattern. Like if I was going on a date, right? And I really was interested in the woman and all that, like, I would do the creative visualization, which which really honestly looked like rumination, you know, was I'm okay, I'm I got the date is a week away. And I should not
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: be thinking about the date. I should be thinking about what the heck I'm doing in my daily life. I'm going to work. I'm going to the gym. I'm working on side projects. You
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: know what I mean? And my mind cannot leave the idea of the date, right? I'm just sitting there spinning the wheels, being like, okay, I'm we're at the restaurant. I'm talking. I'm not nervous. I you know, I'm not sweating. My heart isn't pounding. And I would just spin, spin, spin, spin, spin. And after a decade, I'm like, dude. This is clearly not working. It's never worked. In fact, it's only perpetuated the problem. So, like the not only this specific strategy, but also maybe the idea of a silver bullet strategy, let's let's get away from that a little bit. And then also just in general, right? Like the idea of, as you mentioned, being a software developer, any really any analytical role, right? Whether you're like a financial analyst or even an accountant, anything like that, right? If you're And it and it it doesn't necessarily have to be one of those things either. It's like if you're an analytical person, you want to tear this thing down to the studs, you want to figure out why it works, and you want to find that one solution where, like an Excel spreadsheet, you hit the calculation button and everything comes together, right? Unfortunately, anxiety doesn't really work like that. And so after however many years of using those approaches, I got to the point where I'm like, okay, this idea of solving the anxiety and looking for that silver bullet approach, like probably not gonna happen, right? at least the evidence is is pointed against that. And so that kind of forced me to shift my approach and perspective and say, okay, rather than the silver bullet bullet solution, Garon, you used the term system, right? That's what we're moving toward, like a toolkit, right? To be like, okay, Let's approach this differently. I'm feeling anxious. how am I going to regulate myself emotionally? How am I going to regulate the anxiety? And there's so many pieces of that that are vital, right? So, like awareness is one of the most important pieces, which is to say, before the anxiety goes up to a seven out of 10 or a 10 out of
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: 10, you have to catch it and be like, I'm doing that thing again. Here's where I intervene. And then in the intervention piece, What you really need to do, right, is collect all sorts of different tools that work for you across different areas of your life. And then you're really like a pilot, you know, or or like an audio engineer. You're turning knobs, you're flipping switches and stuff like that, trying to figure out how to like land the plane or guide it to where it's supposed to go. And there is no button, no, no single button that you press that's like, bam, we're flying now, right? You You have to figure it out as you go, and different situations are gonna call for different things, right? So in my first book, I talk about the 10 steps to getting out of your head, which is this simple framework that I have for doing this sort of thing, right? And what I say is basically, and you know, I guess disclaimer is I'm working on a revised edition of the first book. So like this will be more clear once the revised edition is out, but the current edition is sufficient, you know, for working through this process. I guess what I would basically say, right, is like, I give you 10 steps. It's even though they are called the 10 steps, you don't have to be like during every anxious situation you encounter, you don't have to go one through 10, right? These are your
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: switches and your knobs. And you say, okay, I've caught myself at a three or I've caught myself at an eight. Given the situation that I'm in, I'm gonna have to change my approach a little bit. So if you catch yourself at a three, right? Maybe you just say, okay, I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna move my body, I'm gonna do some deep breathing, reset myself, and I'm good. But if you catch
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: yourself at an eight, you might need to go through more of the steps before you get that emotional regulation.
Garon: Mm. Sure. I'm I've really I I can so relate to your journey. How how many of us go down that route? I I went down the spiritual route myself in regards to, you know, I went down meditating, Reiki. I've got my martial arts as well. And and again, you know, law of attraction, I so went down that route first of all. 'Cause I couldn't really quite understand, you know, anxiety itself. It was kind of again, it was like I'll quickly deal with it, push it aside. There must be still an answer externally out there. And w one of my previous podcast guest David spoke about you know, he's speaking about addictions and that side and and he went similar down our route, you know, the spiritual element. And he said he goes, you know, I'm not knocking any of these people. They they're amazing people in their own ways and got, you know, amazing stories which they've done themselves. But it's it's okay looking at all law attract attraction and trusting the process and make sure everything's positive, but he goes let him sit with some of my scenarios, then write their book. So I found that quite interesting while he was saying that we don't want to knock any of these gurus or you know, I'm definitely not saying any of that whatsoever. And and it's like I've said to people in my in my own journey, I've I've read so many different books which are all fascinating. And some of these people have got huge followers. But at the same time I always say to people, it's finding your own way. You know, similar to your books. I love it when you've you put like your tight your ten stages if you like. But what I like about there is that, you know, they don't go in sequence. Similar to famous psychiatrist Elizabeth Kaplaros with the five stages of grief, you know, you bounce in between them and it sounds like you've done hell of a lot there and it sounds like you've done hell of your homework as well looking at a scale seven to ten ten and then learning to challenge you a bit more early on when we're at a two and three is as you know yourself, i it it's so hard to do, Brian, and trying to get that balance, but it it's all about your awareness around your anxiety. And I remember this is no wood of a lie. This is earlier stages when I first started practicing as a therapist. I had a guy come into first session we had, like an assessment session, very guarded quite pissed off to be honest. some guys do, you know, that's kinda normally unless their armour if you like. But he generally sat down and he wanted me to get rid of his anxiety. And I kind of in fairly new, you know, practicing counts, I well that's a new question. And I kind of looked at him and said, What do you mean? And he goes, Well I want you to get rid of my anxiety. And I was quite open, Brian, 'cause I I I couldn't give him an answer. And I said, Well, if me and you can come up with that answer and put it in a bottle We're gonna be worth a fortune. I said, I don't feel that you can get rid rid of anxiety. It's about all about how you work with it. You know, we can have good anxiety as well, which people always seem to think, you know, bad anxiety is always constantly bad, but we can have some good side of that. And it was really interesting what you said about, you know, the difference between reflection and rumination, you know, which I think's fascinating. It it sounds like me and you have been on a very similar journey d to finding ourselves. And, you know, between reflection and rumination, w again I find it fascinating. And reflection can kind of obviously take us somewhere it might say, I don't know, for example, something something happened where I can understand or learn from it. And rumination brings us a Back to exactly the same question in regards, you know, again and again and again. And almost like you're sitting in a rocking chair, you know, you're you're moving constantly, but you're not necessarily, you know, getting anywhere if you like. So so so how do you kind of recognize a difference? And obviously you hit some apart there. And and the question I I find useful sometimes is is, you know, is my thinking taking me somewhere new, or am I walking around the same kind of mental roundabout if you like and and what what was the the point for you where you realize that more thinking wasn't necessarily going to create more peace because as you know yourself when we open Pandora's box as you know and we we step across across that barrier of fear if you like you know we open more of what's going on with our mind so you know What what was the point of for where you realized that more thinking wasn't necessarily gonna create more peace for yourself?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think the best answer that I can give is so you talked about how you had the patient come in and say, like, I want you to get rid of my anxiety, right? It's it's challenging because we live in an instant gratification world, right? Where there are a lot of things that we can tap a button for or make a phone call and get rid of things, right? You
Garon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: got a long your grass is really long, you call the landscaper, they come over, they mow the lawn. you got a headache, you pop an aspirin, you're feeling a little bit down, you grab a coffee, things like that, right? So we do get trained to think and hope that, hey, I can do something similar and I can get rid of my anxiety. When you start that journey, it's very discouraging, you know, because you're like, all right, I have this problem, instant gratification world, do your thing and get me out of it. And then you start talking to all the people who are in the space and actually like know what they're doing. And they're like, they're just on such a different wavelength from where you are that you're like, these people are crazy. You know what I mean? Like they're stuck in their ways, academic. They have no idea what they're talking about. Cause they're
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: like, hey, why don't we why don't we slow down and why don't we chill? And like, why don't why don't you do many, many sessions and we'll figure this out over a long period of time? And I talk about it like that because that was my experience too. You know, we talked about, and this is just how my mind works. I just ping-pong put between different
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: associations and ideas, but we talked about different moments at which, like, you know, people recognize things in me. And I would say amongst my family, the two moments at which people recognized anxiety, one was the orange juice.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: another was I came home from freshman year of college, you know, after the panic attacks and all that. I came home for the for the summer.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: And I was super anxious because I'm I still hadn't figured all that much of this stuff out and I didn't know what I was doing. And I was like, eventually I'm gonna have to go back to college and I'm gonna have to go, you know, face the same thing, right? Cause like I still want to date and I wanna, you know, pursue some women that I have crushes on and stuff like that, but like I don't know what to do. And I was just so anxious all summer. It was consuming me. And my mom was like, Hey, you seem off, like you seem irritable as of late. What is going on? You know? And The the dam kind of broke open at that point and I I just let it all out. And that was very helpful, right? And that began a relationship with her where we can talk about these things. And I still don't always go back to that because that's the old programming, very old programming pulling me back. But
Garon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: anyway, she was like, Hey, look, we're gonna talk to somebody, we're gonna find people who have been through this before, we're gonna figure it out. And I was like, No, mom, like I need to get rid of this today, you know? And so
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: I think sadly that can be the beginning of the journey for a lot of people. And it's it it is frustrating to be like, again, I have all these other problems in my life that I do simple things for, and those problems at least temporarily disappear. Yeah, at some point, I guess you ha you you just start to accept the fact that, hey, I've I've been dealing with anxiety for many years. So maybe it's gonna take many years to get out of it. And that's that's a tough pill to swallow, but Again, I eventually I think you start to accept it. So let me kind of try to actually answer the question that you asked, which was basically like, you know, at what moment did I realize that that the thinking was not going to get me any more benefit? All of that lead up is to say, I wanted the quick solution. I didn't find the quick solution. And then it I spent a decade banging my head against the wall with. Rumination, law of attraction, silver bullet approaches. And then at some point you hit a critical mass, right? I can't say what timeline that is for every person, because for everybody it's different. You hit some kind of tipping point, or at the very least, right? Like eventually the pattern recognition in your brain is gonna kick in and be like, I think we've done this a hundred thousand times
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: already. Like, what's going on? We gotta change things, right? So I can't even really point to one specific instance. i I mean, I could try, but I would say there were many different instances, right? Because it's almost like until you really get the lesson, it's gonna keep coming up, you know. So you might be like, yeah, I'm ruminating. I should stop that. But like if you don't actually stop, you haven't integrated the lesson yet. w one of the times that I will point to, and it's relevant because we were talking about the first book and all that, is
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: The first book, funny enough, is like basically the product of a decade of anxiety, but then it also it accelerated when I was, you know, surprise, surprise. I was pursuing this woman that I, you know, was interested in. She went on a long vacation, went off to Europe. And, you know, it wasn't a it wasn't a relationship. I just we went on a few dates. I really liked her. I was hoping to keep things going, whatever. And here she is, like off in Europe for three months, and like we haven't officially said that we're not going to talk to each other anymore. There's just so much uncertainty in in the relationship or the situation, you know? And so I essentially, while she was away, like I just had the most anxious period of my life. And that was a forcing function for me. I guess, right, when I said, if you experience enough of that hardship, eventually you hit a critical mass where something changes, something happens. And for me, what happened was like I was so anxious about this relationship all day, every day for several months, where I was at work. I'm at a client's office. You know, I'm doing some consulting. And I hit one of those critical masses. And I was like, I've been spinning the wheels over this relationship so many times, so many days for so many hours. This has to stop. And it was a bit of a light bulb moment where because I hit that critical mass, things just started pouring out of me, right? So I picked up my phone. I'm like, okay, open up the notes application, start typing things out. And I just type out like random tactics, strategies, methods, whatever that either had helped me at various points in time or ones that I thought could help me. And it was kind of a brain dump, you know. And then essentially what happened was over the next couple of years, I really started leaning on those tools and I also started refining them. And when I finally finished refining them, those became the 10 steps to getting out of your head, which is that framework in the first book. So for me. Again, various points in time at which I hit that critical mass, but that was a big one. And that gets you to say at the very least, I'm gonna do something about it. Now, does the behavior change permanently only if you've integrated it all the way? So it's a very interesting question. As as you can tell, I can talk about these things forever.
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: But yeah, I've had many of those moments.
Garon: Wow. And a and I mean again I can so relate, so many people I speak to about anxiety, very similar journeys. Especially with you going off going back to university again and relationships and thinking about this relationship so much and the dynamics and the if buts and maybe's. And what was really interesting in regards of you know, Mum obviously we opened up the floodgates and and mum reached out to you. I find that really powerful 'cause the same thing happened to me. I always remember it was late part of two thousand and ten for me when I really reached out to my mum and I I said to her open it. I Look, I feel I failed you, Mum and the whole floodgates come out. So I can really relate to that. Good mums, you know, they they cut they turn up at the right times for us. I really love that. And and also as well in regards to how how you had to get through that. It it it it just shows the great resilience where Even though you you know, you wrote your book, you had your tools and your right ideas and like you said, it it's fine tuning them, it sounds like. And and what was really, really interesting, you still had that fight and resilience, even though you didn't really quite know what was going on. But then at the same time, like many people say with the likes of anxiety, we've gone round in this pattern again. You know, here I am, I don't know, ten years later, still in the same scenario. Nothing's changed. And I can so relate to that because that's when we sit with it more. We turn around and face it more and then we become more inquisitive, we've we've got more questions and and we learn to challenge it as you know yourself, Brian. That's that's so hard to make that switch. And some people do that for ten, twenty, thirty years, you know, and and the hardest thing is is turn around and face that. But I mean your your fascinating analytical mind of breaking it down and and coming up with what was kind of working for you before and not and really hitting that you know head on. I I I so admire your journey. I'm I I'm that's why I was so pleased when you contact me about the podcast. I thought God this guy's really lived it and really been through it and and and obviously the first book I mean again I have ordered it I am waiting for it to be delivered it will be one of many I've got to catch up with but I've obviously watched some of the podcasts which you've done such an amazing journey especially from your from you know get out your own head finding your own way And obviously the ten stages which you've wrote, you've really given that some work and and it hasn't been somebody who said who's kind of, okay, I've had a little bit of anxiety and I'll throw my ideas at that. You've really, really put some structure to it and really hell of a lot of thought. And I love it that you obviously rewrite in one of your books as well, which again, it with with you know, where did get out of your head actually begin? Where Was there that particular moment where you thought, right, you know, I need to write this because it's it I so admire there's so many guys now recently who have written books like yourself, which is my elephant in the room, is something I'd always want want want to do and it's having that confidence. I've got the knowledge, I've got the years of experience. And I'm just there. I I who is it? My my last guy on the podcast spoke about being at that lake. I always remember that. Being at the edge of the lake and not ready to jump in and swim. And I feel that I'm there and all my guests have been amazed and yeah, just pick my brain and it's like I really want to be able to do that at some point. So I You obviously had the courage, you took the leap of faith if you like. You know, I need to write this. You know, d was it like that or did it gradually develop from your own experience?
Brian Sachetta: A little bit of both. I would say that like, you know, I remember at times when I was going through those first panic attacks around the age of 18, I had this, you know, sort of grandiose vision of I was like, I'm gonna figure this all out, I'm gonna eventually write a book about it, so on and so forth. I lost sight of that vision, you know, for many years. And then, but I think it's always like kind of still in your mind somewhere, even if it's buried. And as I'm going through the summer that I just talked about, where I came up with the 10 steps, like I wasn't writing those 10 steps or or whatever was in that note, I wasn't writing that because I was like, I'm gonna write a book. You know, it was more like I was just living my life trying to survive through the anxiety. And then as I started, like after I wrote the stuff down and started connecting dots, I was like, This is helpful. This is helping me in real time. And then I started talking to more people and all that. And I remember like I was so I worked for a company. I had two different roles at the company. I did software development and then I did sales for them. And like, you know, it was good people, just like it it wasn't the right fit. You know, I I I really wanted like I went from feeling isolated and trapped in my mind as a software developer and being like, I gotta go do something more social. I I'm a fairly gregarious person, you know, like I I'm an extra there's part of me that's an extrovert. There's also part of me that's an introvert. And I
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: was like, I gotta just go do something that will be more social. So I was like, sales would be more social. I talked to a lot of people, whatever.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: come to find out, right? I I get a sales job at this company. It just wasn't the right opportunity, you know, like we had barely we didn't really have a sales department. I got hired under this new hire of VP of sales. he got fired a couple weeks in because like the strategy just wasn't right and the CEO didn't like the direction and the fit and all that. So then all of a sudden I'm even more isolated than I was as a software developer because I'm just on LinkedIn and email, emailing all
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: these random people. I don't have a team around me that I'm talking to every day and I'm not like out in the field like at people's offices, you know, selling deals and stuff like that. And and let's also be honest, right? If you're like a a a BDR as they call them or a you know a sales associate or whatever, like most people don't want to talk to you. So like you're sending off emails and then they're they're flagging you as spam and writing back and being like, never email me again. And you're just like, I in that situation, I was like, This absolutely stinks. I have no support, I have no tools, I have no idea what I'm doing. and I I just feel like I'm failing, you know? And so Around that time, I started talking to more and more people about all the notes that I had written down and my anxiety and all that. And at some point, people were like, You should like do something about this, you know, like this is great that we're having this conversation, but like, how did you learn all this? Like, do something about it, you know? And that's where I was like, okay, this is interesting because I really don't like this job and I have no meaning and no purpose from it. Let me lean into the writing and even. Even if I write the book and it helps one person, that is an infinite amount more meaning and purpose than I'm getting out of my job. And so that's where things truly started. And I, you know, I ended up publishing the book in 2018. And it's been a journey ever since, you know, another book, tons of podcasts, lots of conversations. It's just so funny because the journey has so many different twists and turns. And I'm not even saying that it's been all positive, you know, but in general, I've learned a lot. I've talked to a lot of people, not to brag, but I have helped some people and that's, you know, really meaningful for me. And I'm glad I
Garon: Brilliant. Excellent.
Brian Sachetta: got started because you never know where that journey's gonna take you.
Garon: That's brilliant. That's really amazing as well, Brian, especially in regards to In that moment, I know yourself I've I've literally got folders of of stuff over the years where I didn't even even before I went into my therapy work and my sort of space for me is when I go out in nature, early hours in the morning before anyone else around, I do my meditating, I do my mindfulness. And I still to this day write my notes, you know, what I've been through, what ideas I've got. And I find that really powerful what you've done there is that, you know, this is kinda like live feed from a guy who who was going through Is experiencing living it, writing it, and and that's why it's it's a true honour to have you on the podcast. Like you said, you know, if I write the book and it helps that one person, that's all that matters. And and as we've discussed earlier, that's the purpose of this podcast. You know, I've had different offers left, right, and centre, and this podcast is still fairly new. I'm not interested in in stats or any of that side. Again, if this podcast reaches out to another Brian or a Garin, well, do you know what we've done our bit there, Brian? You know, but I I I find that so fascinating. That this has kind of expanded into the world of where you are now. And I I so admire, you know, most importantly, you as brave. You didn't give up as well. As you know, I'm sure over there on the other side of the seas, how high males and and and and suicide rates are at the moment. And and it just keeps skyrocketing. It's just quite severe. And I mean, luckily you and I was one of the ones who was quite brave and and hopefully strong enough to be able to kind of learn to grab that surfboard when those tidal waves of anxiety comes along. So I I really admire that you've done that. And and it it it's that lived experience in that moment. When you're at your frail state, I mean you can't get any better than that, you know, the of true depth of somebody in that vulnerable place. And I mean At one point, 'cause obviously there was a lot of survival there, you know, riding out holidays, holding this mask on, doing the job where I just kind of visioned you there just messaging people, left, right, and centre, and still on your own, just that, you know, kind of kind of that empty show of a guy, if you like, and and and trying to understand what your purpose was. This is like the build up. I love this part of the story, Brian. And I mean When w what what I found is is that obviously you started recognising a hell of lot of about yourself and and what what point did the experience stop being something you were simply, you know, trying to survive? Because you had all this stuff going on and let's be honest, white knuckling it for years on end. Plus obviously writing your books and that as well. You know, w what point kind of silly question did your experience stop being somewhat something you know you were simply trying to survive because I think sometimes we can jump back in our survival mode as you know. But what what point did your experience kind of stop being something you were, you know, white knuckling through constantly, trying to figure it out, you know where when did that start shifting for you, Brian?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, that's another really good question. I don't have a perfect answer, but I think that I can do something of like process of elimination. And one of the pieces I go back to is like my second book, which is, you know, centered around depression. That that manuscript came out of a depressive battle that I faced in 2018 and 2019. And during that time I was definitely white knuckling it, you know. So I think like if I could piece it together and it's again, it's not a perfect answer, but an answer that I can give you today is I started writing and that kind of put the message out there to different people, right? And little by little I'd have conversations with folks who like read some of my writing or whatever. And then we'd we'd talk about anxiety, maybe develop a deeper relationship. Maybe even some people would be like, I had no idea, right? I had no idea you were night white knuckling. I'm kind of shocked. Like, you know, what's going on? Can I help? Whatever. And so somewhere after publishing the second book is when I feel like more of those conversations started to proliferate, where again, not Definitely not a perfect black and white answer, but it's somewhere in so that book came out in late 2021. So it's somewhere in that range, you know. And I think about the fact that, like, sadly, like I was in a relationship in 2022. And that was like the first like real extended relationship I had, you know. I'd have like flings and one offs and whatever, but like this was like a real extended thing. I don't know. At least like it it felt the most real. I I'm not saying that I hadn't dated people for a couple months or whatever, but this felt the most real. And it was also the first time that like I unintentionally cracked open with the anxiety, right? So like if I if we were on a date and I was just like really anxious or whatever, like I I was so afraid to say anything, but a couple of times I did, you know, and then you get that I got a response from the other person where she's like, No, it's it's okay. Like This isn't the end of the world. Like, we can just chill, whatever, you know, we can just hang out. And those become corrective experiences, right? Where if all of your programming is saying, okay, at 18, I had a panic attack in front of this girl. At at 18 and a half, I had another one. And, you know, then you start to build these associations in your brain of, you know, dating equals pain and dating
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: equals panic and all that. All of a sudden you have this intimate experience with someone where they're like, I see you at your most fragile, at your most
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: vulnerable, and it's okay. Like you don't have to run, you don't have to panic. Like, I'm not necessarily saying that like this is gonna end up being the best date of our lives, but like we can just chill and I'm not going anywhere, you know? And so I think just slowly over the last that's probably like four or five years, right? Over that period, I've started to have more of those corrective experiences and those build upon each other, right? Where you're like, I have some feedback. That shows me that being vulnerable is not the worst thing in the world. And that's a great experience. But then I'm starting to rewrite my own wiring and be vulnerable in other situations and gather more feedback in the world. And then you're redrawing your entire psychological map. you know, obviously that's a bit of a profound way of saying it, but like that can definitely happen depending on the situation, the old beliefs, and that kind of thing. So the answer is somewhere in that period, yeah.
Garon: Sure. Well I've you I'm I'm really appreciative, Brian. You give me some of my guests I have on this show, you know, to all everybody I've had on the Green Room Podcast, you guys have been so inspiring. And I must admit you get my mind ticking. I can see the an yeah, analytical Brian figuring this out, but you know, patching it all up. It it's just a fascinating how your mind works, Ryan. And and the journey you've had on and and what I find that's so moving that, you know, panic attacks come around again and we can always reflect on all God, I've been here before, I know what happens. And just to have someone to say, look, it's fine. We we can relax. It it people don't realize saying something so small like that can be such a big thing for guys like me and you. That could be a real big game changer for us, instead of using it against that person, which can be so damaging. And and just kind of being held in that place is is such an amazing place to be able to be in that comfort which we have. I I'm really glad that somebody gave you that. instead of kinda doing like the God, you know, he's having a mad moment, let's bail. I find that so moving. So many people have heard tell me their stories similar to that, where there has been that one particular person you can remember for that journey, who who was there for you in that moment, which is which is so powerful and moving. I I really, really appreciate that. And and obviously, yeah for your own developed it for your own experiences in regards to the book as well. And I mean, how much of the first book came from the things you personally went through, if you like? Because obviously a lot. of the stuff you wrote was i you know live i mean you you was writing about some of these battles you've had in life which which for me makes it so much more real. I mean how much of that came you know from things you personally went through in in in the first book?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, the first book is honestly I don't know, like 80, 90% of like my own stories. The approach that I basically take in general is I take my own stories, I talk about them, I weave in some research, and then I say, like, here's how we can apply that research to a similar situation, be it panic attack, anxiety, rumination, whatever. So that was the model of the first book, and there's a lot of stories in there for sure. and I I try to write that way because, like you said, like the lived experience is interesting to people and I think that they relate to it pretty well. so I'm trying to get that hook, if you will, right? I'm trying to make
Garon: So
Brian Sachetta: it such that the reader is like, I understand this. He understands me. Does it happen every time? I don't know, but like that's what I'm aiming for. The second book I know just like anecdotally or whatever, you know, off off off of my mind. There's a there's less stories than the first book. So it's it's more research, more philosophy, because it's depression, you know. and I think depression depression makes you philosophical, you know. but there's definitely stories in there. And that's always like the that's what I want to lean into, right? Cause I'm like when I if I work with a you know, my career coach or therapy or even just talk to like Chat GPT or whatever, they're like, Stop trying to like sound like this fancy author who understands all the, you know, critical and fancy terms. Dude, your value is the fact
Garon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: that you are the lived experience. And that's what people want. They don't want some person in a lab coat, you know, talking in a high-pitched voice with a monocle. They want somebody who knows what it's like and has been there and can basically like walk through the experience with them. So I'm trying to lean into more of that.
Garon: Next one.
Brian Sachetta: What I would say is the most fast well, everything's fascinating to me in this space, honestly. But one thing that has been fascinating is like I have been through the therapy, I have been developing my own voice, right? To be like not just, hey, don't do the lab coat thing anymore in your writing, but like in the pages, be who you are in therapy. Be who you are when you know that you're acting like yourself, because that's what's gonna be most interesting to people. And that's also where you're gonna feel most aligned. So even if the books don't sell any copies, you're gonna feel really good that you basically did all this internal work and you're humming, you know?
Garon: Yeah, excellent. And and again it's becoming your true authentic self, isn't it? And again, through through writing your book, I mean there there's been so much and I love it that you the other side of things, you're looking at the depression side. Another I will be buying all these books, by the way, because I I love all my guest journeys and I I kinda wanna put myself in your world and and I love it that you've aimed with the anxiety and depression side. I I I yeah, I'm so i I've got so many questions, Brian, that's why I'm stumbling my words. I'd be saty if I could sit in a room with all my guests at once. It would just come on for hours of all the questions I'd throw at you guys. So I mean, again, there's obviously transitions happening for you at that time as well. You know, writing up a book about anxiety, what you was going through, making it real, making it who Brian w was himself and obviously going through therapy, I mean with we do tend to hopefully in one way or another start true truly finding to discover who we are. you know, as as Carl Rogers was talking about, fully functioning person, if you like, and and having that understanding with ourselves. So I mean, you're on hell of a journey at the moment, Brian, as well. And would you say with these books you wrote as well, Because obviously you you was on a bit of a journey trying to discover and and you was kind of building this mapping up of how you can progress forward. Again, I'd be a chatting to you for hours about that. Did you find like writing the books change your own relationship with anxiety? Because there's like what you you hit on earlier, there's something fascinating about, you know, putting our experiences into into words. And sometimes we think we're explaining something for another person and and and somewhere, you know, during that process, if you like, we we begin to understand ourselves differently. So was there anything you kind of discovered about your anxiety while you was writing it that surprised you?
Brian Sachetta: I kind of feel like there's almost two separate questions there, right? So one is like Did anything surprise me? But then also, like, did it help me or how how did it help me, or something to that tune, right?
Garon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I'd say less of the surprise piece and more of just the idea that the books became my own therapy, right? And it wasn't always that I would write the book or I'd write a chapter and I'd be like, boom, like, man, I just figured something out and I blew my mind. It was more a way of working through. through some of my own issues and getting to a point of catharsis, you know, to say, okay, I previously did not really process or digest a sus a specific experience. And as I write about it and I work through it, I am starting to process it now. Right. So I think as an example, right, is I started writing the book, the first book, I started writing it In 2016, which was the year after you know, I had this anxious summer with this girl that I liked. And I think, especially given some of my patterns and all that, like I didn't really process the situationship relationship with her. I just it didn't work out. I was pretty sad, and I just did my best to move on, you know? And as I wrote the book. I definitely feel like I got to a point where I was I was processing it better, I was understanding it better, and really trying to take away from the fact, right? Like I even say in the book, I'm like, look, I didn't get the relationship that I was hoping for, but I got this silver lining. And the silver lining is that out of that situation came this book that helped me better re regulate my anxiety. And when I came to that conclusion, again, it's not that's not like a earth shattering conclusion to me, but I was like, okay. I see some of the the power in it now. And that makes me feel a lot better. And I can look back and I can be like, you know what? She wasn't the one, you know, and that's okay. But she was a big part of my own growth. And the funny thing, right, is like a lot of the times we we have these experiences where we get so fixated on that person. You know, it's like the relationship that didn't work out, the one that got away or whatever. And you know, it's funny because I'm like in a I feel a little weird like when I'm like, I basically wrote a book about her, or like essentially, you know. But in writing it, I'm like, yeah, she is a key character in the book, but it's not about her. It's about me and it's about my journey. She was just a big part of that journey.
Garon: Appreciate that and the answer and how you have done that. Again, you last few clients have given me such amazing kind of visuals, if you like, when you guys are chatting and I'm trying to put myself in your world. And and obviously, your first book isn't simply an explanation of anxiety, it obviously gives people practical approaches. they can actually try as well. And I'm really keen to have a look at some of them because it sounds like especially with therapy on top of it as well, Brian. I'm I'm so gonna be keen to see. what the rewrite of the book is as well. 'cause obviously you spent so many years doing this and you know, outside of here I'd I'd love to pick your brain in the near future in regards to books. I I really would 'cause you you're very similar to myself, your journey, how you've dealt with things as well. And having that brave step of writing your books and talking about it. It it's that goosebop gump bump moment where I'm like, God, do you know what this guy, I love it. I I really do. I love it that you took that brave step to do this and thrive from it. And you so deserve that as well. And I mean with your book it obviously can give people the practical approach as well, rather than leaving like anxiety as something pure pure like theoretical, if you like. And And why why was that so important to you? Because again, we we spoke earlier, I'm not sure it was before the recording with clinical and behavioural, you know, I'm I'm more of a behavioral therapist, I'm definitely not a clinical psychologist. at least how I am. We spoke shortly of of how I was, which I won't discuss with in our recording, the dynamics of some things, clinical behaviour, how it can be different there. So I mean, why was it so important? you know, instead of taking out the theoretical jargon if you like, why was that so important to you?
Brian Sachetta: I mean, I think it started with my own desire to make thing sense of things for myself. Right. To be like, yeah, that eighteen year old kid in his dorm room who had no idea what was going on and just experienced a panic attack and wanted that silver bullet and assumed that it had to be out there, like I felt as though I I had to get to a solution, even though the solution ended up not being a silver bullet. It it was more, you know, a systematic kind of approach. From there, I think it became okay, I have this system and I've worked through th something for myself. And I connected back to, you know, being 18 and struggling and being like, I read all the books, I listened to all, you know, and this is a different time. So maybe the the mediums themselves, maybe it wasn't podcasts, you know, it might have been like books on tape and things like that. But I I consumed all the content and it wasn't. obvious to me as to what the approach was, right? So at 18, not only was I dealing with a lot of anxiety, but I I was also very frustrated, you know, because I I was like, I'm consuming all this content. I'm trying to, you know, wade my way through it. And yet it doesn't seem like anybody really has the answer. Now, again, like the answer, I think that's a loaded term or whatever.
Garon: Who?
Brian Sachetta: but I wanted to find something, you know, and so in some ways Me writing the book was the promise to my 18-year-old self to say, look, like you struggled super hard. You couldn't find answers that worked for you. Let's put out some answers into the world that are gonna help other people. Now, do I really think that like my answers are the answers? No, I don't. do I think I'm gonna help save everybody or heal everybody? No, I absolutely don't. And that doesn't matter. You know, it's more like back to that idea of. If one person listens to this podcast, if one person reads the book and gets something out of it, I mean, it can literally change a life and lives in general. And even if it's one, which I'll tell you the truth, as I have heard from readers, and that has definitely happened many times over.
Garon: Excellent.
Brian Sachetta: Like that blow that's the piece that blows my mind.
Garon: Sure. Yeah, I can imagine that's quite emotional as well for yourself, especially all the work you put in, being on that journey, having the books and someone reaching out. I you know, it it it's a feeling you you kind of never get elsewhere, isn't it? Of of that appreciation say, Do you you gave me my penny drop moment? I find that really moving. I find myself a little bit emotional talking about it because it's just such a such amazing place to be, especially somebody's reached out to you, bro. I you know what, I can't. you know, thank you so much. You you know, with what you described is break it down. I'm I wish a you know, mailman would hurry up 'cause I'm keen to read these books. And I I really love it that people have reached out to you of there because, you know, knowing something and being able to use the knowledge, you know, especially when you're distressed, are two completely different experiences as we know. And without turning this into like a checklist, Which which two ideas can fascinate about theories, ideas? It's it's what I say to clients, you know, I've I'm a trained counselor, but you know, I'm still working with theories, ideas. These are not facts. And and don't get me wrong, they work in weird and wonderful ways. So going back to your work, what you've done there in with in your book here, which of the two or or three ideas from the book Do you personally return to most often, if you like? Because obviously you come up with your own tools, your own strategies. I love this. Are there certain ones which pop out at you which you turn back to and and use yourself?
Brian Sachetta: It's a really good question. I don't wanna like toot my own horn and say all of them, you know? But I do find them helpful. And if I didn't, I wouldn't have written about them, you know? Now I think What I find most helpful and what I return to on a daily basis is something that I touched upon earlier, which is the idea of the system, the idea of, you know, being a pilot and you've got your knobs and your levers and stuff like that, and having the tactics that are those knobs and levers, and emotionally regulating yourself in the moment with awareness and with those tools. That is like that's the whole ball game now. In terms of which tools you use and which tools that I use, it's a it's a good question. I guess what I would say is right, like again, it it it's different strategies for different folks and also for different situations. Now, the ones that I come back to the most, right, is so I talk about this is this is in the revised edition of the book. This is not unfortunately in the first edition yet.
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: But so I've got the 10 steps, and I was like, okay, 10 steps are great, but It's all about accessibility and usability, right? So if somebody's
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: having a panic attack or they're really anxious, you know, 10 tactics is not always that approachable, you know? So I came up with this new idea, which I call the the IRA framework or the IRA process, which is a bucketing of the 10 steps, right? So IRA is interrupt the anxiety, reframe the threat, and then anchor back into calm. And so the idea
Garon: That.
Brian Sachetta: is. No matter which of the 10 steps you're using, you are trying to walk through this process where you interrupt, you reframe, and then you anchor. And on certain days, right, like if you're having a really bad day, you might need to do all the interruption steps. You might need to do all the reframe steps. You might need to do all the anchor steps. But for me, right, is like luckily and knock on wood, like things do change, but like right now, the anxiety. is doing okay. And so what I find myself, like I, you know, I was doing it last night. I was up pretty late. I was like kind of revving my system a little bit too much in the sense of like working on the rewrite at midnight, you know, and I'm getting signals from my body as to be like, dude, you gotta slow down, you know?
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: And what's helpful is, you know, we also talked about the sort of the ladder of anxiety or whatever, where
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I think for a long, long time, I would find myself at an eight, a nine, or a 10 out of anxiety. And and at those levels, like I hate to say it, but those are dire times, you know, where you're like, if you're a 10 out of 10 on anxiety on the scale, like it's gonna take a lot of work to get you out of that, or your body's gonna have a panic attack and release all of the emotion at once in this extremely painful way. And nobody really wants to go through that. Right. So for me, like what I see as proof of proof of work of this thing actually being effective is case in point last night I'm at my, you know, kitchen table writing at midnight and I start to sense like some of my my symptoms of anxiety, which honestly like they're all different for everybody, right? Like one for me is if my nervous system gets a little too hot, I start to see like little rings around light bulbs, like auras, if you will.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: And that always you well that freaked me out for a long time, you know, because I'm like, like is my is my vision messed up? What's going on? Whatever. And now I'm like, okay, it's an indication that my nervous system is running too hot. And it's a sign that I need to intervene, right? And I need to intervene right now at a three and not at a nine. So like last night I said to myself, all right, as much as I want to keep writing because I'm passionate about the rewrite, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm finishing this very task that I'm working on, which was like one sentence. And then I'm gonna go for a 30-minute walk. And as I walk, no music, no podcasts, no audiobooks, just think, just process and do some deep breathing. And I
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: came back from that walk and I felt so aligned. and I did a little bit of therapy with my AI app. And then I went to bed. And it felt really good. So summing that up, right, is I used the I tried to use the IRA process, right? To be like, okay, the interruption came from getting up, going for the walk, and doing some of the deep breathing. The reframing was me being able to take a step back, have that deep breath and that pause to be like, hey, there are some little auras around the lights. There's nothing wrong with you. You're just a little anxious right now. Your nervous system is revved up. And then when as I'm walking, you know, I'm thinking about good memories. I have music playing in my mind. And I'm like, okay. like lean into the rifts, lean into the music. And remember, like this is just anxiety. It's gonna pass. And then I go back into my house and I'm like, I feel pretty good right now. So that's generally my process. Obviously things change if I don't catch myself until a nine or a ten, but
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: in general, things are going better these days.
Garon: Brilliant. And and I really love that you still use your own stuff you've worked on and breaking it down. We we do similar like in C B T therapy and like D B T therapy, it's breaking down. More digestible, as you know yourself, we've got all these weird and wonderful ideas and coping strategies and all this stuff, but trying to break it down in front of ourselves is really hard to do. And you and I both know that sometimes we've got to take the long way around countless times before we start discovering new ideas. So I really I love it that you kind of take a step back and it sounds like you've simplified it for people to be able to have a look at this to break it down into smaller segments instead of trying to, you know, finish the whole cake. one sitting if you like with chopping it into proportions there and so there's more digestible and I love it that you're still using that that's so that's really cool. I'm really impressed with that. And I mean obviously we look at kind of Let's kind of unpack the the computer analogy and analogy, sorry. for somebody who's never encountered the work before, 'cause I I've worked with very similar guys or yourself in in in therapy practice, you guys blow my mind sometimes, especially when you go into more of the techie stuff. I've got all we've got to say to my clients, that's slow down a bit. I'm trying to catch up. I don't know what you mean. So how how is the human mind kinda like a computer system? So, you know, when I kinda come across your your work if you like, I I kind of first pictured like a laptop with fifty browsers, you know, open if you like, and one is worrying about work or, you know, replaying yesterday and somewhere beneath all those, you know, there might even be an old kind of tab running for ten, twenty years eventually, if you like, and the system, as we know, slows down. So is anxiety sometimes a little like having Too many psychological tabs at once, if you like. But let's kind of take the analogy a little further here. if if if my laptop, for instance, is struggling, I might ask, you know, what's running in the background, what does it need to be running? What's crashed? You know, what needs closing? You know, what are our background processes, if you like? So, you know, if we translate it into human tones, you know, from it could be grief, unresolved relationships, etcetera. I mean, what what are our typical backgrounds of those processes going on on that big web page we've got in front of ourselves, if you like?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I love the analogy that you use of having too many browser tabs open. And I think like the through line here is that you have your nervous system, as in your brain, spinal cord, peripheral nerves, all that, right? And when you tax that system too much, as in you put too much stress on it, you're gonna experience different kinds of symptoms. And obviously, like everybody handles stress differently. I think the funny thing or I don't know, the the relatable or relevant thing for our conversation is like clearly me and you and the folks who are listening to this conversation, when we get stressed, one of our symptoms is that it manifests as anxiety and its cohorts, right? As in, like, you got all those browser tabs open, the system is slowing down, it doesn't have enough resources to keep up, and bam, like all that stress hits and it's like It it's it's basically like the check engine light on the car comes on, right?
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: And our check engine light is anxiety, rumination, maybe derealization, things of that nature. And those become those signs, right? Like when we talk about awareness, the signs are the check engine lights being like, Hey, you have a lot of browser tabs open. I can't keep running all of the web pages that are hosted on those browser tabs. You gotta cut me some slack here, give me back some more energy, right? So I think that's the piece that's most important is understanding or perceiving those signals as they come in, and then realize that. Those messages are your brain's way or your body's way of saying, like, I need some help here. And we give it that help by taking those pauses, by going through the 10 steps, by going through IRA and what have you. Again, like it's it's different for everyone, right? Like somebody, somebody else may say, I get super stressed and I just get insanely tired. I don't get anxious. I just have no energy left, right? And that is just how that specific body or person's body responds to stress. For us, it manifests as mental health stuff. And so yeah, it it really behooves us to lean into those steps and listen to those signals and intervene at those early moments because that's our system saying like, dude, I'm redlining and I can't do this much longer.
Garon: Sure. You definitely sound like you've you've kind of tried different angles of this, Brian, finding your own answers here. And I'm only smiling here because you can s really see how much you've pushed yourself to your limits, you know, white knuckling it, telling everyone you're okay, wearing the mask, everything's fine in Brian's world. But you've had to really turn around and face, like I normally say to my clients, I'm tapping my shoulder already, you know, we have that anxiety gremlin jump on our shoulder or depressing gremlin and We we push that aside, don't we? And and the hardest thing is is you you made a valid point earlier. sometimes we can go round in this cycle countless times and w and we come up with the same place and and what do we do? We repeat ourselves and and then we want to know why where we are. So you you you've kind of really, really pushed some work down. I love it that you put in the ten steps in your own work. I think that's so awesome. I love that by the way. And and the good thing is you found your own kind of coping mechanisms, obviously with guidance of therapies which you're working with. And I love it that you've created your own tools to help you get through this the best way. And and and why I say to my clients is, you know, you're your own expert at the end of the day. You can work with whatever therapies you like all over the world, but it's down to the individuals helping them seek their own answers. You know, sometimes I've always had to particular clients who are very keen to understand, you know, what the what it's like with a view at the top of the mountain. And and what I always say to people, sometimes do we ever get there? I'm not too sure. It's all about how we get our backpack ready at the bottom of the mountain and it's about that path ahead. You know, even I don't know what it's like at the top of that mountain. Yeah, we we slip and we climb back up as you know. but I mean it just kind of stay with the language a little bit there and I mean Sometimes, you know, as as what you said, we're we're we're kind of adults of running this kind of emotional software, if you like. And, you know, for myself, what was kind of installed to me many years ago was, you know, don't cry, don't make mistakes, keep everyone happy if you like, or you know, don't show weakness was definitely with my stepdad. That was the big one for me as well. And our needs, you know, as we know, sometimes our n needs come last. And those beliefs might you know, once have served a purpose if you like, and perhaps they helped us navigate a particular environment. But years later, you know, we may we may still be running them automatically. So eventually we have to ask ourselves, it's it's like what you discovered with your books and with your own, you know, ten stages which you put through together, is this belief still serving me? We're back to that point with We've gone round in that cycle. You know, what what old operating systems, you know, have we got to update? And w was there ever like a belief about yourself that you once accepted as a fact but eventually realized it you know it was kind of simply something you had learned.
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the power of therapy in general. And what I would say is the insane thing about therapy and also just the human mind is if you go deep enough, you realize you come to the conclusion that your brain will make conclusions at a very early age that if you do not intervene, will stick with you for the rest of your life. And the craziest thing about that, right, is like at five years old or at seven years old, before your brain is anywhere near fully functioned, it's writing a contract out and saying, this is how the world works, this is how life works, do these things, don't do these things. Like you are, yeah, I don't I don't want to use the wrong term, but I'm like, you have you are you're so young, you know so little. And yet your brain is basically forging out your future, at least until you get to the point of of looking at those things, going deep, you know, usually happens as a result of pain or therapy or whatever. And so I think, right, this is where like for me the the answer is still open. What I would say is like, for me, I have done a lot of therapy and I've gone back in time and I've i it's like a it's hard for me to say the term without sounding ridiculous, but I'm like, you know, you like talk to your nervous system. You think out
Garon: Cool.
Brian Sachetta: loud and you you go back into your memory and you're like, okay, like 'cause again, w if this stuff happens when you're five, you might not even remember it anymore, you know?
Garon: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Brian Sachetta: And that's another thing that's crazy is like your brain installs these programs and then is like, peace, I'm out, like, you know, throws the keys away behind you and it's it's very frustrating. But
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: At the same time, you know, if you dig deep enough, you can at least find some remnant of that pattern or that belief in therapy.
Garon: Mm-hmm. True.
Brian Sachetta: what when I say, you know, I think the answer is still open, is I'm like, I think that I've done a lot of that work and that's helped me a lot. does everybody do that work? No, they definitely don't. that's not a brag or anything like that. It's just saying, like, you look around, right? And like everybody's got problems. Some people have more problems than others. You look at, you know, whether it's families that you know or people that you know or colleagues or whatever and you're like, they got some dysfunction. They, you know, have some beliefs that are strange or whatever. Not all of the beliefs that somebody holds come from five years old. But like, you know, you look at we've all got some family within our extended family or or, you know, friend group that we're like, that family is crazy. You know, and not necessarily like abusive or anything like that, but just like they are dysfunctional. You know, and you're
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: like, what I think about with that is they may have learned to white knuckle it themselves, get along to go along, or whatever the term is.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: But like if they really went deeper and saw what was going on at that deeper level, things would change, their beliefs might update, the way that they operate might might change as well. And you know, like I think also there is. You see folks who just like clearly encounter a lot of suffering, a lot of pain. Maybe they're just like frantic in general. They have like weird behavioral issues. And look, I'm not here to diagnose. I don't, I don't know exactly, right? But I'm like, there are definitely times where as an outside observer, you can look and you can be like, those people do those things, or that person does this thing. And I wonder where they learned that from. Cause that's a behavior. That's not necessarily like they have a condition, you know. as in like a disability or anything like that. And y when I see those situations, like nowadays, and I'm trying to, you know, not be like the kid in the candy store, but I'm like, nowadays, after doing a lot of this work, it's hard not to go out into the real world and think to yourself, like, like I was at a store yesterday, and there was this young daughter and her dad, and I'm you know, like I'm sure like I don't know anything about their life, I don't know anything about their situation. But like the dad was checked out on his phone and the you know, I'm sure he was tired and you know had had a long day. And in general, parenting is super hard. But like the daughter just kept picking up things and being like, daddy, I want this. I can't get it, you know. And he's like, Put that down. I told you, don't, you know. And I'm thinking to myself, like, maybe I'm wrong, but there's also a possibility that some of those programs are being installed right now and I'm watching this happen in real time. And maybe that girl's gonna be in therapy in twenty years, being like, I don't know why I feel the ways that I do, or I don't know why I act
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: the ways that I do. That stuff is so fascinating to me. And again, I don't have the answers. It's not a closed book. and maybe I'm even projecting a little bit, you know, on other
Garon: Show.
Brian Sachetta: people's situations that I know nothing about. But it's hard not to look at the world through that lens after you've been through some of that stuff yourself.
Garon: Sure. I love that for looking at the world in your own l lens and seeing obviously the child requesting things that's on his phone and kind of being told no. So I I really it's really fascinating. kinda have that bird's eye view, the helicopter view if you like, when you step outside yourself and you become the observer. And and it sounds like you're so on that journey and and I love that that obviously you're looking at the world through a total different lens now. And and I really find that fascinating. And and we kind of we brought up a couple of words really briefly earlier, like the what if. So, you know, what if I lose my job? What if I you know what if I've upset then I become ill, I can't cope. You know, one question creates another and another and it goes on until we're, you know, psychologically living inside a catastrophe and you know, that let's be honest, hasn't actually happened. why are those questions so kind of seductive when we're anxious? And and and do you think the mind sometimes believes that worrying about something will prepare us for it?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean, this is a rabbit hole that we could definitely go down for a long time.
Garon: Ha ha ha.
Brian Sachetta: You know, like if you think about evolutionary psychology and just the body in general, is like the threat detection system, the acute stress response, whatever term you want to put on it, like that's an ancient response in the body, right? It's it's millions of years old. It's not
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: unique to humans, and it is designed to get us out of immediate in our face threats, right? The issue is like the world is so different today than it was
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: millions of years ago ago, even you know, thousands of years ago, even hundreds of years ago, right? And
Garon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: so we still have all that same wiring inside of us. And the issue is with that different world, right, we're not facing as many of those real immediate life or death threats that are designed to get us to run away. So this is basically like what people call an evolutionary mismatch, which is Our brains are not designed to live in this world and thrive in this world because the threats are very different from the ones that they are good at getting us away from. So the whole problem in a nutshell is the mismatch. And then you think about like why are those qu questions of what if, why are they seductive? Is look like other animals, you know, it's it's been shown that they can like, you know, project off into the future a little bit and like think about. The future and whatnot and have emotions and all that. But like humans obviously possess an uncanny ability to do those things, right? Like we've got a massive prefrontal cortex in comparison to most other animals. And that means that we not only take that evolutionary mismatch, but we add on a new part of the brain that allows us to run all those future projections. And all of a sudden, you generate a lot of threats that The acute stress response is not designed to hold. And right there, you have a big discrepancy that leads to more and more anxiety. So it's like, I don't know, it's like giving drugs to a drug addict. You know what I mean? It's like, unfortunately, that's a weakness that is that is built into our system that is very hard to evade. And a lot of the work, right, like that we do in therapy is getting to the point of understanding that, yeah, those questions are seductive. They're also incredibly scary because you essentially think about those questions and you immediately get some sort of activation of your nervous system. Cause your nervous system is like, whoop, my spidey senses just went up.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: I know it's not a tiger in front of me, but it's a proverbial tiger off in the distance. And that's really scary. And then once you have that activation, sometimes you're like, goodness, why do I feel this way physically? And you start ping-ponging between. Thoughts and a physical reaction and more thoughts and more of a physical reaction and so on and so forth. So, like when you're working through the anxiety, right? The the one of the biggest pieces is just understanding that this is how it goes, understanding that your nervous system responds in this fashion. And then from there, right, it's it's basically systematically dismantling some of these what ifs and getting to a different perspective in your life where they don't bother you as much. And I hate to say it because I know that I said, you know, we want the silver bullet, we don't want the long-term fix. But some
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: of it just comes with age and experience to be like, look, when you're 18, and hopefully not all that many bad things have happened to you, or you haven't
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: failed that many times, or whatever. And look, I get it, everybody's life is different. I'm not saying
Garon: Sure.
Brian Sachetta: 18 is always a certain way or not a certain way. but as you get older, right? Like I think about, okay. For me, at 18, it's like I'm having these panic attacks. These feel like the worst things that could ever happen to me. And then you get older and you know, you go into different relationships, and worse things happen in the relationships, and you have big fights and you get dumped and so on and so forth, right? And you never get to the point of saying, like, hey, getting dumped is great. Like, I love it, you know, but you're just like, Look, it's part of life. It's happened before. I have Putting it, I've put it in its rightful perspective, where if at 18 I'm saying myself, a panic attack is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you, it's akin to death, right? Or having a panic attack in front of somebody and therefore the relationship falling apart as a result, if that is akin to death, then you get older and all those what-ifs of like, what if this happens? What if that happens? A lot of those things are gonna happen. They actually, they just do, you know? And Again, it's not to say that they're easy to go through. It's not to say that they're enjoyable, but you do get through them. And then you look back on the other side and eventually you're you're like, you know what? I I have to stop fearing the what ifs so much because one, I've been through a lot of them in the past and I've survived. And two, some of them are gonna occur. And that's just life. And I just don't care anymore. You know what I mean? And and again, I'm not trying to simplify it that much or sugarcoat it or whatever, you know, make light of it. But you're just like, you know what? I'm gonna keep doing the things that I wanna do, understanding that there are risks to the things that I wanna do. I could fail, it could be painful, but that's par for the course. And when my brain does that thing of saying, What if, what if, what if, understanding that the story that I play out in my mind of that what if is worse than 99.999% of the instances that occur in real life, right? Sometimes I think it's called negative visualization. I want to say is in the anxiety space, instead of being like, what if, what if, what if, say, no, no, no, okay, I'm going on that date. What is the worst thing that could actually happen? Like for real. Not like my brain is catastrophizing and I'm gonna die, but like, okay, yeah, I ha I go, I have a panic attack in front of that girl. I never talk to her again. I really liked her. But she never texts me back. And that is literally the worst case scenario. Or I get taken out in an ambulance because I have a panic attack. Those are the worst case scenarios. It helps put it in perspective better. And then you're like, you know what? I wouldn't want those things to happen, but I could handle them.
Garon: Yeah. That's that's an amazing shift. I'd be I'd sit and speak to you for days, Brian. Could you it's really interesting in regards to figuring out when we activate, we believe and have our consequences. And you've w well I used to find really hard when when I'm working with people with anxiety is is going through, you know, best likely and worst outcome. And I used to always cringe with my clients 'cause again, you know, I I I know what it's like to have anxiety, I know what we it's like when we interpretate and how we project these million and one ideas, these worst case scenarios happening. And I still wanna take the bullet for Brian. I even to this day I feel myself cringing sometimes. I think that's the human in me. I'm like, my god, you're gonna hit him head on with worst case scenario Which again we avoid. We we we don't wanna feel that. We we don't really want to speak about it, but But you've done so much work to be able to you know, sit with that, break it down and look at kind of worst case scenario and then lo using a bit of humor in regards to like relationships, I'm definitely no expert on that. I'd I I'd be lying if I did if I said I did. And it's really interesting the reminders when it comes to relationships and and I always use this of humour. One of my girlfriends broke up with me around Christmas time. And the song playing was Rayah Carey, All I Want For You Is Christmas. And every time I hear that, Brian, this is years ago. And every time I hear that now, you can guarantee it's obviously around Christmas. And I'm walking down that still, you know, last minute shopping. And, you know, I obviously I was hurt. I was in pain. I was a young guy and, you know, being dumped. But now I use a little bit of hum, which I feel, you know, really helps me through in my personal life and and my private work. Bage time now I kinda chuckle to myself when I'm walking down the supermarket now and it's around Christmas. 'Cause my gut tells me it's kinda saying, prepare for it, it's gonna come on in a minute. And nine times out of ten it appears, Brian. So for me, you know, the the tears are gone, it sounds harsh, which they have, but then I start laughing 'cause I'm like, yeah, I remember this one, you was heartbroken to that. And then there's probably another one which has popped up. So I kinda use a lot of humour 'cause it you generally over them, they happened earlier on in life. But every time that song comes on, it gives me that reminder. And I'm at that stage where I roll my eyes now. yes, I remember this one. so again, when you said about the what ifs and I'm really diving in that and again you're breaking this down amazingly and I love it that you challenge it. And you know, if I imagined every possible disaster, you know, nothing's can surprise me. But there are endless possible outcomes as you explained earlier. You know, so where does it stop? And and and and when does kind of preparation become that kind of mental exhaustion? Because we go around this so much, we're planning, we're prepping, we're coming up with an ideal as well. And this can kind of bring us into that kind of area of uncertainty, if you like, because life can't, you know, provide complete certainty as we know. We can't guarantee tomorrow. We we can't certainly can't guarantee we'll make mistakes or guarantee relationships won't. change and if I you know have I given myself that impossible task you know I know nothing bad will happen and maybe it's kind of like what you said earlier but you know I don't know exactly what will happen but I'm becoming more confident that I can respond to life as it unfolds and it sounds like you've really hit that head on in regards to worst case scenario likely and you know the scenarios we can go through as well. And And how important, you know, is the ability to say, I don't know yet, and and and remain kind of in that uncertainty, if you like. And is there a difference between sensible preparation and repeatedly trying to mentally el eliminate the uncertainty? Because perhaps, you know, confidence isn't nothing will go wrong. Perhaps confidence could be, you know, what happens, I will work out what I need to do next. Does that kind of make sense what I'm saying there? And w with your journey and what you're doing there, Brian, it you're so hitting this head on. I know. I'm I kinda wanna get I'm looking forward to getting your first book, but I want the new one now because you're giving me little hints and I'm like, my god, I'm I'm gonna please do, you know, obviously keep in touch when that that book's released because I'd really love the update version. I'd be interested to know, you know, the Brian back then with the Brian with the extra wise mind now. So I'm be really, really keen to see what gaps you fill from last time, if you like. You know, I'm really, really keen to do that. And what I what I find as well is, you know, there's there's a counseling question I find, you know, useful, you know, what is my anxiety trying to protect me from? And not because anxiety necessarily has a correct answer, as we all know, but because, you know, curiosity creates a different relationship with ourselves than criticism. Instead of asking, you know, what's wrong with me? I'm I know you did and I know I certainly in my earlier stages is, you know, what's wrong with me? And and it's beginning to ask yourself in regards to, you know, what's happening to me? You know, do you think understanding angs anxiety rather than constantly fighting it, as we know ourselves. it sounds like you was doing so much of that holding and fighting it, Brian. It's very similar to myself, you know, for so many years and and constantly trying to fight it. can change our relationship within that. And what what kind of changed when you began understanding your own mind what was trying to do and and and c can we kind of appreciate that a system is trying to protect us while also recognizing I think you've explored some of this earlier on while recognising that sometimes it's it's working far too hard.
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean, you asked a lot of good questions in there. I probably won't be able to remember them all and answer them, but I
Garon: Sorry.
Brian Sachetta: guess a couple things that come to mind, right? So you you talked about uncertainty and kind of just being able to sit with it, or like how do you approach it, right? So I I usually say that I mean, the basis for anxiety is uncertainty, right? Like if we knew everything, how it would all work out, how it would all play out, we might Be in despair, right? If somebody was like, hey, things are gonna go horribly. You don't want that to happen. So you'd be, yeah, in despair of that, of like, the, you know, the comet is is hurtling towards Earth. I don't, I don't want to experience that. But you'd know, you'd know with absolute certainty. And so there'd be less reason to be anxious, right? So the uncertainty piece is what gives us the anxiety in the sense that, what if, right? That question that we've asked. I'm going on a date. I'm really nervous. I don't know what's going to happen. If you knew it was going to happen, yeah, again, maybe different emotions, but not necessarily anxiety. When you can sit with that, right, which is very difficult. but if you can sit with it, right, and you stop fighting against it, it allows you, I guess it's the fighting that becomes a form of resistance and essentially signals back. To your nervous system that there is something to be worried about or there is something threatening, right? And I think like going to the last part of the question that you asked, or the final question that you asked, of like understanding like what is anxiety protecting me from or trying to help me, there's a lot of different angles there. I think one of the things, right, is like I said, Just for folks who are listening who are interested in anxiety or deal with anxiety, sometimes the anxiety can arise as a result of a lot of stress on the system without a real specific threat being there. So sometimes, right, we have all that stress, and all of a sudden that check engine light comes on, and the check engine light is the anxiety and the symptoms that come with it. What it's what it's saying, right? What the anxiety and then also at a higher level, what the nervous system are saying to us is I'm trying to protect you from redlining, from running the system too hot and burning out. And yes, I that's that's different than a tiger in front of you, a real live life or death threat. But it's still a threat in and of itself because if you run out of energy or you know you push the system too hard, you're gonna feel even worse, right? So it's trying to protect you from overextending yourself in some of those situations. And I think when you have that reframe, right, is I know for such a long time I fought my anxiety. You know, when I was 17, 18, whatever, be like, you know, push it down, don't feel
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: it, just like try to make it go away, try to like man up and like macho it and whatnot. And, you know,
Garon: I say, yeah.
Brian Sachetta: obviously it doesn't really work. But that was kind of the world that we lived in during that
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: time. Like, you know, specifically like the the early aughts and whatnot, you know, those those years where
Garon: Yeah. True.
Brian Sachetta: guys, you know, weren't supposed to feel emotions and whatnot. And
Garon: Ghost.
Brian Sachetta: obviously things are changing, which is great. but with that change, right, of not pushing it down, of not fighting it, you give it a little more space to breathe and I you know, at some point, right, you get to the point where you say, Look, like if my body is constantly giving me this signal and I am part of my body, you know, either one of two things. Either it's sending me a signal to warn me about something, or my body just hates me and we're in this never-ending battle that's it's just gonna go poorly, right? And I I I always try to bring some level of optimism where I'm like, I don't believe that God or the universe or whoever you know, put the gremlin on my shoulder and and stitched them into my shoulder and
Garon: So
Brian Sachetta: meant like, hey, it can never leave. It's more like the universe brought you this little friend, you know, your nervous system. And that thing can be chatty at times. The gremlin can be pretty annoying. But I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Gremlins, but they can be cute too, you know? and they can be helpful as
Garon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: well. So it's like being able to distinguish amongst those things and say, okay, I have the awareness. I'm not fighting the uncertainty. I'm not fighting the anxiety. I'm trying to figure out what this thing is trying to tell me. It might be trying to tell me that I need to, you know, work around some threat, evade some threat, or process some threat. It might also just be telling me that I'm working too hard right now, stressing my system too much. Maybe I have a sensitive system. And one of the ways that that manifests, as we've talked about, is just anxiety that comes out of nowhere or feels like it has no apparent reason or cause. When we listen to that message and we make those changes, we say, Okay, I step in with the awareness now, I do the intervention, I do my IRA, and then I come back and I'm like, my body doesn't hate me so much anymore in this moment. That's a very, very big part of the entire process.
Garon: Excellent. I'm just seeing your work and and the IRA, I love that. I'm gonna be using that a lot in my mind now. I really, really enjoy that. That's brilliant. That it's so really I find that you've really, really obviously put the work in bride as well. And and again, obviously I I don't wanna keep you on here forever if you like, but I kinda wanna just quickly explore in regards to like in intrusive thoughts, big one when it comes to our anxiety as well. So if we kind of talk carefully in regards to our intuitive thoughts. So people can experience unwanted thoughts that frighten them. You know, I used to be my own expert at that. And precisely because of those thoughts feel kind of inconsistent with who they believe themselves to be, if you like. Then comes the big old analysis which we do, you know, why do we think that? What does it mean? What if it happens and and why can't I stop thinking about it? And and sometimes that thought itself becomes less distressing than meaning, you know, we've attached to having it if you like. And why we you know, why can desperately trying to suppress a thought sometimes make it feel even more significant?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean a a couple things come to mind, right? Well, many things, but like some cliches or whatever, right? What you resist persists, the rebound effect, or even like if you've ever been in the swimming pool and you have one of those inflatable, like it's like a thin plastic volleyball, you know.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: If you try to hold that thing underwater, it's like the harder you struggle to hold that thing under the wall the water,
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: the more that ball wants to pop back up.
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: That is the analogy. Of the thoughts, right? Which is basically the more you're stuffing that thing down, the more you're sending a message to your brain that it's so important that I have to get rid of it at all costs.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: Therefore, the undertone there is this thing is very threatening. It's very scary. And that message that gets sent in turn to the brain is this is a threat. We have to do something about it. So it ends up heightening our nervous systems, right? And activating it. And so we think we're doing the right thing by. trying to sweep it under the rug or whatever, but it's only making it a lot worse, right? Those piles of dust add up pretty quickly and all of a sudden we can't there's not much we can do about them. I actually struggled pretty hard with intrusive thoughts for a long time. What helped me the most was I actually read a book. I don't have the name on the top of my head. It it it definitely has intrusive thoughts in the title. And the book was basically just an exercise in saying you have many thoughts every single day, maybe like 60,000. I forget what the number is, but a lot of those are repetitive thoughts. And many of them are also random, right? Or like seemingly come out of nowhere. Right. For example, right, if if you're walking down the street and there's like a kid on the sidewalk and Something pops into your head of like, I could just push that kid into the sidewalk and kill him, you know? Like that, that when you have a thought like that, that makes you feel as though maybe you're like, you know, a serial killer waiting in the wings, you know, because you're like, I'm not supposed to have that thought. That's a bad thought. Banish it to the ends of the earth because I can't become a serial killer, you know? The literature basically bears out that. Even though we don't want to admit it, a lot of people have, not everybody, but a lot of people have thoughts like that. A lot of people have intrusive thoughts in general. And when you finally just accept the fact that you have them and you don't worry about them, they just go away. Or at the very least, like that individual thought is not in the swimming pool for so long, you know? He's like, you know what? It came, I'm gonna forget about it and I'm gonna let it go. This is one of the the the few places where I would say. The approach and the tactic really is that simple. You know, like with anxiety, you can't really just be like, I'm never gonna think about anxiety again and it's gonna
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: go away. But with the intrusive thoughts, the literature is more in line with that because again, the more you hold on to it, the more you're sending those signals to your to your nervous system as to like basically get the alarm system turned on and revved up. And so for me, you know, like knock on wood. I went through a pretty bad season of intrusive thoughts a few years ago. And the crazy thing is, it hasn't been in my purview at all for several years now or a couple of years now. And I really do credit that book for that change. I will find the title for you. I can send it to you or whatever. But yeah, it
Garon: Please do. Yeah, I'd love that.
Brian Sachetta: was great. Yeah.
Garon: Excellent. Thank you. I've again and this will lead us on as well. This is one of our other favourite ones when we go through this journey of anxiety. Is and I love with the bull what you said holding it down and this pung, you know, waiting to kind of pull out of the water if you like, and we're holding that down. So many of us do that. you know, I've got a new influx of clients coming in, it's mainly anxiety and I I wouldn't be surprised if many of them say, you know, like what you done the white knuckling and, you know, riding out and I think it can be really hard sometimes, especially as being on the other side of the table sometimes you can really see these guys holding it in and I kind of you know I find that fascinating. I always especially when it comes to males, you know, big boys don't cry, you man up, you don't show feelings. That's a woman's world. And and and so many guys hold that in and I and I normally do the best I can to kind of meet them with compassion, letting them know that this is that safe space is fine. And and you can see eventually within time, you I've had a couple guys who come in really guarded and quite aggressive and frustrated and eventually they do let that go. guard down which again from from male's perspective that's a really hard thing and brave thing for any guys to do. And and then we and then on top of all this with the intrusive thoughts and and the battles we're having with our anxiety and challenging our thoughts around that, we have the amazing reassurance and check-in. You know, so we have Google partners, friends, doctors, therapists, and check-in and then check in again. You know, we get relief perhaps a five minutes and then the doubt arrives and Why can reassurance sometimes provide only temporary relief and and and how do we kind of distinguish between healthy emotional support and repeatedly searching for certainty, if you like?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah. It is it is tough, but but
Garon: It's a tough one, this one.
Brian Sachetta: I mean what comes to mind is the the concept of OCD, right? So obsessive compulsive disorder
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: is when you talk to somebody who's dealt with it or you, you know, do a little research on it, essentially like you get urges to or you have thoughts, right, that are intrusive or worrisome or whatever. And instead of necessarily Dealing with the thoughts in a truly health healthy way and rerouting them in a sense, you eventually like, if you have OCD, right, you develop compulsions, which are little rituals that you do. they're almost like little hits of dopamine, right?
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: To to send back to your brain to be like, I distracted myself from that thought. I, you know, I'm Whether it's I'm doing some tapping, I'm organizing things, I'm counting, any other compulsive ritual, right? And those are some of the common ones that people report. It's it's an indirect response to the thought itself that is meant to soothe a little bit. The problem, though, as you can imagine, right, is like if you think about it, you're like, I had this thought and then I tapped. What does tapping have anything to do with the thought? And It's only indirectly and loosely related, which is basically is like you're using your physiology to redirect your mind somewhere else. The problem is that you've essentially put a band-aid on the problem and you haven't actually figured out how to deal with the intrusive thoughts altogether. So essentially, like the the real breakthrough comes when you you have some sort of paradigm shift to listen to the thoughts. And either decide, like, hey, this thing has told me something that is interesting that I could use in my life to improve my life, or it is just one of those thoughts that is noise that is coming in at random. And, you know, maybe here's where I bring the title of the book in. it's called Overcoming Unwanted Intrusive Thoughts, a CBT-based guide to something that it got cut off from there. But folks can find it if they want it. Maybe you get to the point where you say, look, these are just intrusive thoughts. er a lot of people have them. They don't mean anything inherently. And I just let them go, right? And rather than tapping and avoiding, I say, Hey, I see you thought. I understand you, or at the very least, like I'm not shying away from you. And I'm here to tell you that, like, you can keep coming. You can keep knocking on the door. I don't care anymore because you don't mean anything to me. Those that's That's a real, real paradigm shift because you're then, you're not just redirecting the thought each moment, every time. You're saying, I am bringing an entirely different game plan to this whole subject.
Garon: Yeah, it's again thanks for giving me some insight there, Brian. It's so interesting when we go through these certain stages of anxiety because then we have like our inner critic and the relationship with ourselves because People sometimes speak internally in ways they'd never speak to another human if you like. So, you know, you're useless. You you've ruined everything. You should be better in this. I mean, why can't you cope? There's all these stuff which we have and we beat ourselves up around that. And and here's a question I really kinda like if you like, and i i i if somebody you deeply love came to your experiencing exactly what you're experiencing, what would you say to them? And you know, most people suddenly become compassionate, patient, understanding, kind. And I and I do this with my clients sometimes, which creates another question, you know, why are you excluded from your own compassion? Because again, you know, meeting somebody with compassion and and yourself within compassion, as we know, is quite hard to do, especially going through the other stages that we do as well. So Brian, I mean what what's your relationship with your inner critic, if you like? today. Sorry if I'm diving in too much here. And I kind of I was interested to see what that's like for you, you know, in this present day.
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean a couple of questions there, right? So the first is like, what is your what would your approach be if somebody comes to you? I think it's exactly what you said is listening, caring, compassion, all of that. I think the most important thing, right, is like making sure that that person feels seen and feels heard. So even though I write books that do have some solutions in them, like I don't want to jump down this person's throat and be like, step one, step two, step three, do all these,
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: you know, it's like, let's just talk. Like, I've been through this stuff before. You're it sounds like you're going through it. And like, I'm not, I'm not sitting here saying I'm the expert. Like, let's just have a conversation. Tell me what you're feeling. Telling, tell me what's going on. And then just a dialogue, right? Of at various points in time, maybe at the end of the conversation, you know, once you've really gained that person's trust in something, you could say, Hey, you know, this has been great. I want to let you know that you can come to me anytime. that I'm here for you. And, you know, if if you're interested, like I did read this other book or I found this other strategy that was helpful for me, like, may you could try
Garon: Yeah, I think so.
Brian Sachetta: it if you wanted, but like, you know, never being pushy about it because what they need is they need to be feel they need to feel as though they are seen and heard, right? Those are the most important things.
Garon: to
Brian Sachetta: The inner critic, you know, like it's definitely a different wavelength. I guess
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I don't know. I remember reading something of saying like, you know, it's It's part of maybe like the survival instinct or something to be like, you know, when you look at photos of yourself versus other people, like we zero in on the smallest things and we're hypercritical. Whereas with other folks, like we don't see those things. We're just like, look at them, they're having a good time, they're laughing, whatever.
Garon: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: I don't I don't know. I I honestly have not dug deep enough into the research there. I think that like for me, right? Yeah, my inner critic used to be massive. When you're 18 and you're having all these struggles and whatever, and it's, you know, 2008 macho man times and whatnot. And
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: and you're just like, you know, you can't struggle. What's wrong with you? Whatever. Nowadays I just don't care. I'm like, so what? I struggle. So what? I have anxiety. And the the anxiety is painful at times. But like if I stick to my scripts and I stick to my methods, like I'll be okay. And I've done a ton of work. And the critic, right? Again, like understanding that. Whether it's the critic, the nervous system, the symptoms, whatever, they're part of you and trying to get into harmony with those things. And rather than saying, Hey, this is this evil gremlin that was cast on me by the universe, you say, like, no, that's my pet, you know, and like if I had a pet,
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: I would feed it, I would talk to it, I would take it for walks, I would make sure that it's doing all right. Taking that same approach is very helpful because often that inner critic is trying to signal something. It's just maybe in the wrong spot in your life overall where, yeah, it feels like it's punitive or whatever, right? But eventually getting back to the point of saying, you had mentioned at one point anxiety can be positive. It can also be negative. Well, I guess it often feels like it's all negative, but there are some positive things to it. Same thing with the self-critic is like if you learn to listen to that critic at the right times and trust it, it can be a guide to be like, okay, yeah, I actually am a little bit off course here. But if you lean into it too much, all it's doing is, you know, treating you like a punching bag. That's
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: that's not very good. So
Garon: Sure. And if you do find though, just hearing from where you are, you go from one scale to the other, don't you? Just to try and get, you know, that seesaw effect to try and get gain some balance there. So many people do that, especially when you're on seven to ten sort of scale, trying to figure out procrastination. You're not good enough. You our minds are such fascinating, complex things and amazing sometimes as well. And and again, we you know, it's understanding our our our identity and and and there's kind of an important kind of difference if you like between saying I'm experiencing anxiety and I'm an anxious person you know one one describes an anxious and experience the other can become more of an identity and and do you think we sometimes accidentally build identities around our struggles you know if if you've been kind of spent years saying you know I'm the anxious one or I'm the person who can't cope. You know, d d does does improvement sometimes require us to rethink? You've you've answered a good part of some of this anyway, rethink to who we believe ourselves to be. So yeah, does improv does improvement sometimes require us to rethink who we believe ourselves to be?
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean we we absolutely do that in terms of giving ourselves these labels. I think, yeah, I like just stepping back philosophically, I think that there's pros and cons to everything, including labels, right? And one of the pros is that you are able to identify the thing it is that you struggle with. And with that identification, you you do put it in a box, right? Where rather than being like, I have no idea what's wrong with me. There could be millions of things wrong with me. Once you identify it and you're like, I deal with anxiety, or maybe even I'm an anxious person,
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: then you have a lens through which you can look at the world, which could be positive, could be negative, right?
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: positive in the sense that you could go to therapy because you've made that identification. You could read a bunch of books about anxiety. You could listen to a bunch of podcasts
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: about anxiety. Those things may help.
Garon: Mm-hmm. Chill.
Brian Sachetta: The con is that you don't want to pigeonhole yourself and live permanently inside the label, right? Because if you're like, I am just an anxious person and that label is permanent, then you're sending some message to yourself to be like, I can't ever shed this label, right?
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: I think, you know, the the healthy path is somewhere in the middle, right? Which is to say, and obviously we've been talking about it throughout this podcast, is Have the approach of basically being like, yeah, I deal with anxiety. And when I deal with the anxiety, I need to have the right strategies that help me cope. But I'm not going to lean all the way to the extreme and say, I'm just a severely anxious person, and that's the end of the story, and nothing's ever going to change, right? So knowing who you are such that that can direct you toward change. But not being so locked in on that self definition that you put yourself in a prison.
Garon: Sure. I mean thanks for that, Brian. And again, I I used to have it a lot earlier on in my career as a counselor in regards to I I haven't had many recently, but I used to have a lot of clients in my early stages come to me to say, I've got anxiety, I've got depression, I've got ADHD, I've got bipolar And it just will say, I can't do this because of that. I can't do this because of this. I can't and and for me I was kinda like I'm not here to give you diagnosis again on behavioral. It's so what I used to do as well is to say to him, okay, I understand you've got your diagnosis. I d I t tend to try not to use it as labels if you like. Sometimes I can with clients depending on the therapeutic relationship. But I I used to kind of find myself hitting them quite head on. I said, Okay, you've told me all the things you can't do because of you know, such label. But what can you do? Because I'm hearing a lot of the things or or reasons why you can't do these certain things, but at the same time I'm questioning saying, well what can you do while you've got this label? What can you do with that? What can you work with that? So I you made a really, really valid point there as well. and again, you know, even as a counselor, I'm I'm blown away by new diagnosis, new medications and outside of sometimes even I've got a question a hundred percent of well hang a minute, what does this actually mean? Because with these wasn't highlighted so much, you know, in my childhood. It was like if he's sad, you're always having a sad day, or he's emotional. he needs to man up. They were my solutions in my childhood. So so again, thanks for exploring that to me. And I w I I wanted to kind of shift over because we mentioned a little bit about about your book as well. get out of your own Get Out of Your Head Volume Two, which is again I I've I wanna read both of these the anxiety and depression. So navigating your best the abyss of depression. why did you feel you needed to write volume two? And and how was writing about depression, 'cause I think anxiety and depression work perfectly together if you like. And how how how was writing about depression different from writing about the anxiety?
Brian Sachetta: Well, I I wrote the book as I alluded to earlier. Like I went through a depressive episode in twenty eighteen and that was so painful, like insanely painful, you know, like it was hard to wake up every day, you know, living in that pain and just I I will I will caution. I have a fifteen minute hard stop, but we'll we'll we'll dive into the degree that we can. basically, right, like I experienced such depression for months on end and at a certain point, right, like I There would always be there would be thoughts in there of like, hey, you could just pull the plug and be done with this, you know? those thoughts were there, but I never wanted to act on them. I was like, what I really want is I want to get out of this pain. I just don't really know how to do that yet. And I got to a certain point where after however many months, I was like, look, I don't know what the solution is gonna be here. And I don't actually at the time I didn't know anything about depression, very little. And so I just had some sort of insight to be like, look, I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can like figure this out on my own, but I have a mental health brand. I've written a book about anxiety before. As you said, anxiety and depression are like two peas in a pod. And so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try to go on a similar journey to the previous one, maybe this time a little bit more intentionally, in the sense of like. I'm gonna try to speed run through this depression of like, if I and I'm not saying that this is the right approach or anything like that, but if I read 75 anxiety books over the course of a decade, I'm gonna listen to as many about depression as I can in the next few months, you know, and I'm gonna dive into the research and I'm gonna just take this thing head on because I I need it for myself. And that was helpful to be like, look, no, and I think one of the most important pieces of that was understanding that it wasn't just about me anymore, you know, like I did have something of an audience. I did have readers and followers and stuff like that. And so I was like, if anxiety and depression are two Ps in a pod, and folks have read my first book and got a lot out of it, then yeah, I'm I am working through this depressive battle because I want that for myself. But I'm also doing this because I think that in the long term, or you know, six to twelve months, whatever, I could get out of this thing. I could come up with some insights and a narrative that helps me find that catharsis and process this thing and eventually become something that other folks can use to process their own depression. That was the intention behind the book. And I don't know if we'll have time to jump into all the different theories and philosophy and tactics and stuff, but I look back now and I'm like, I'm very, I'm very happy I took that approach. I would say that the anxiety book surprise, I don't know if it's surprising or not. The anxiety book sells better than the depression one, a lot better. And
Garon: Okay.
Brian Sachetta: so I haven't heard from as many people about the depression book, but I hear have heard from some. and I guess I'm curious to know, like, if I were to find a way. To pour some fuel on the fire in terms of marketing that book, you know, what would what would the response be? And what would cause again, I've I've heard from many people about the anxiety book, fewer people about the depression book. I've gotten some good word, but I'd love to know like what do people specifically, right? Rather than, hey, I read it, thank you very much, it helped me. I'd
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: love to know like which of the tactics or which of the philosophies lands the best with people.
Garon: Okay. Well w what I do, I'll do I'll do a deal for you there, Limbr. And what I'll do, I'll go to the second book and I'll read the second book first and then I'll go into the anxiety 'cause I wanna I wanna do opposite. because obviously you're reworking the first book and I want to dive into the anxiety side and I'm more than more than happy giving you feedback there because I've really lovely you've written both of these books and and and obviously I know we're looking at time otherwise I'd keep you all bloody day, Brian. I would before my guests, I'd keep all of you in my room for days on end. So before we we kind of move towards the end, you know, I want to bring both books together. You know, two books, two answers. So from get out of your head kind of like a t a toolkit for life with overcoming anxiety. What's the one principle you'd want somebody to remember about anxiety?
Brian Sachetta: That's a great question. I think I I definitely get this question a decent amount and I struggle to pick one, you know, because the book is actually like if you think about the process of writing a book, the book is a distillation of so many things where you're like, There's things that I even wanted to write about that I was like, it just doesn't fit. It doesn't
Garon: Yeah.
Brian Sachetta: quite make sense. Maybe it becomes a blog post or whatever.
Garon: Mm-hmm.
Brian Sachetta: So there's already like all the ideas are fighting for their seat at the table. So it's hard for me to pick one. I do think though, right? Like I'm gonna harp on it again. It's basically that idea of the systematic approach and saying rather than looking for that silver bullet, we are looking to build a toolkit that we can use and we can take our awareness in the moment to say, I'm feeling that anxiety right now. I need to intervene with my tools, with the IRA process. Like that's the reason I say that that's the most important thing is that is the the gist and the high level approach of the book. But how each person does that varies, right? So it's hard for me to say your I is gonna be step two, your R is gonna be step five, and your A is gonna be step ten. That's up to everybody. And also they, you know, a certain person may say, I'm super anxious today. I'm going straight from one to ten, you know, but keeping that high level approach, I think it's it's very durable, you know, because you go from situation to situation and you're like, the core thread here is the anxiety has revved up. I need to step in with my awareness before I get to an eight, nine, or ten out of out of ten on the anxiety level scale, ladder, whatever. And then I intervene with those tools and I work myself back down to a zero, a one, or a two. That is in a nutshell what you need to do. It's it's very, very simple, almost like too simplistic, but it's the application of the ideas in that systematic approach that become the invaluable things for each individual reader.
Garon: Thank you, guys. The young side, depression, and the books. I will read the depression book first. I'm interested in reading that and I'm I'm more over and giving you feedback. Sun as it sounds, I'm really excited about reading them. I I I love other people's perspective and I really want to kinda get into Brian Brian's world if you like. So thank you so much for giving us time and I know I'm taking a lot of your time up here. And I kind of want want to finish by thinking about the person listening, if you like. We we've risen this a couple of times in this podcast and you your heart set at the same as mine and helping that person. Rather having the two people having this conversation, imagine somebody hearing us at two o'clock in the morning, you know, the house is quiet. Everybody seems to be asleep, but their mind won't stop. And replaying the mistakes we do and question ourselves. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone, desperately trying to distract themselves. Their head feels like a computer was, you know, with 50 tabs open, they're exhausted. And you know, and perhaps they start to believe maybe this is just who I am. you get, you know, kind of five minutes or a few minutes with that person, not as the author, not as a developer, not as somebody who's promoted the book, just as Brian. What do you want them to know? And also with your amazing journey and the work you're doing. what would you want them people to know? And also as well, how do people get hold of Brian? 'Cause this is the purpose of this podcast is promoting what Brian does, especially his story. So far two questions at once there. Sorry, Brian.
Brian Sachetta: It's all good. So what I would say to them is is honestly like kind of simple and things that we've talked about before come to mind, right? It's it's having compassion, letting them them know that the conversation itself is, you know, one of trust and safety and all of that. And just making that person feel as though they are seen and heard, right? Because like the end of the day, that's what we all want. And even if I mean what that usually means, right, is like they feel as though I see them for who they are. I see what they're struggling with. I'm not inherently just trying to immediately jump in and fix it. You know, maybe the fixing comes later, but like if we don't do that off the jump, as in if we don't get that trust out of the gates, we're never gonna really get anywhere. We're not gonna make any progress. So it would be sitting with that person. Just asking them how they're doing, getting them to talk about themselves and open up. And from there, right, if I can get them to feel those things I want them to feel, then maybe I can come in with some of, you know, tactics or advice or whatever. But I would definitely, if it's five minutes, I'd keep it pretty high level. And one of the things that I always come back to, and it's really just like that compassionate note, is to say that like, look, I I don't know exactly what that person or you are going through. I've been through some tough times myself. I I can't say that those are exactly the same things that this person is encountering. but I know that those battles have been difficult. I also know at the same time that I'm still here. And even when, you know, like the light at the end of the tunnel went out entirely, somehow I made it through. And that's not about me, that's about the human condition in general, which is For that person, I would say, look, it's probably brutal right now, because you wouldn't have come to me if you weren't looking for an ear or advice or whatever. But something inside of you is telling you that it can't get better. But also you wouldn't reach out if if it if you didn't truly believe that it could. So what I would say is not only things not only can things get better, but they actually probably will. The problem is you might be looking for them to get better overnight. And it might take some months, a year, whatever. But don't lose sight of that. Don't lose sight of the fact that even if you can't see that light at the end of the tunnel right now, it's gonna come back into view at some point. It may take a lot of work, it may take a lot of struggle. You may have to do some therapy, do some research, work really hard. and try to find yourself. But eventually that light will come back and you will eventually walk out of the tunnel. and I would just finish by saying, you know, I empathize with what you're going through. And honestly, human to human, I love you and I would do anything for you. And I hope that things do get better because you deserve it.
Garon: silly that my my guests always get me as that I love you and reaching out to Brian. God guys always do this to me. well you know, thank you so much for that. And what what I'll do, Brian, as well, I'll put all your links in on on the podcast and that so people can get older yourself as well. So massively thank you, Brian. I know we're taking extra time in, I'm really, really sorry about that, but something Well I wanna kinda say a massive, massive huge thank you to you, your time, your books. You're still here, you're with us and and you help with so many amazing people out there. Your story is so moving and I'm really looking forward to reading these books in in regards to the person in that moment. I'm I'm just gonna find it so fascinating. And and something's has really stayed in me throughout this conversation and and and maybe, you know, mental well being isn't about creating a mind that never Produces difficult thoughts. Maybe it's about creating enough space between ourselves and our thoughts that we regain some freedom to choose what happens next. This, you know, thoughts will come, anxiety will may appear, life will sometimes hurt, and unincertay isn't going anywhere. There will probably be always be another tab trying to open, but perhaps we don't have to keep every tab. And we certainly don't have to hand every thought the steering wheel. So there's one counselling question I'd like to leave with everyone for this. Brian's massive time, which is given us here, is what might change in your life if you stopped treating every anxious thought as something you had solved? Maybe you don't need to win every argument happen inside your head. Maybe sometimes you can notice the thought, acknowledge it, allow it to be there. And bring your attention back to the life that's been happening in front of you. So thank you so much again for your time, Brian. And I've got all your information as well. And if your mind feels overloaded today, remember you are more than the thoughts passing through your mind. An anxious feeling doesn't have to become a life decision. A difficult day doesn't have to become your identity. And sometimes it begins with one small choice: one breath, one conversation, one boundary, one. And one question, what do I need right now? Rather than what is my exact anxiety demanding from me. If anxiety, panic, and intrusive thoughts, depression, or other mental health difficulties are significantly affecting your life, reaching out to an appropriate qualified mental health professional can be an important step. You don't have to completely understand what you're experiencing before you're asking. And thank you again, Brian, as well. Thank you for joining me here on the Green Room. podcast. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for allowing us to look behind the books and meet the person behind them. And thank you for giving us another way of understanding what happens when the mind becomes overloaded by anxiety, overthinking, fear and uncertainties. Brian, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the Green Room podcast. And thank you so much for giving your time. I really, really appreciate this as well.
Brian Sachetta: Thank you, Garon. It was a great chat and I hope folks get something out of it.
Garon: Thanks again, Brian.