ABOUT THIS EPISODE
The United States, a global superpower for the last several decades, is now locked into a battle for control over the region with the bulk of the world's remaining fossil fuel reserves. Despite U.S. military strength, Iran is not backing down, equipped with a new era of military technology. What happens if the U.S. strategy backfires against its leadership's intention, and what are the larger implications for the balance of geopolitical power?
In this episode, Nate welcomes military historian and political scientist Robert Pape for an in-the-moment breakdown of the Iran war's trajectory. Drawing on more than two decades of modeling U.S. strikes on Iran, Pape lays out his central concept: the "escalation trap," in which tactical military success – such as killing leaders, hitting key assets, or a blockade – actually results in a strategic backfire as the attacked side is motivated by the need to survive. He layers this dynamic with the "Second Precision Revolution," which describes the rise of cheap, mass-produced drones that enable countries like Iran and Ukraine to withstand attacks from far stronger militaries. The two also discuss the tenuous position of the other Gulf States bordering Iran, the effects of this war on the financial power of the U.S., and the risk of an Iranian nuclear test in the next few months. Pape brings this all together to point toward the United States' position at the edge of losing its status as a lone superpower, pushing the world back toward regional power centers.
What does the United States risk by continuing its strategy of brute punishment? How is the rest of the world adapting to the rapidly changing geopolitical gameboard? And if the United States global standing is relegated – and modern warfare is redefined by decentralized drone technology – what will it mean for stability and globalization more broadly?
(Conversation recorded on September 15th, 2026)
About Robert Pape:
Robert A. Pape is Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago specializing in international security affairs. His publications include Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism and Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War. His newest book, Our Own Worst Enemies: America in the Age of Violent Populism, is now available.
Before teaching at the University of Chicago in 1999, Pape taught international relations at Dartmouth College for five years and air power strategy for the USAF's School of Advanced Airpower Studies for three years. He received his PhD from the University of Chicago in 1988. He is the director of the Chicago Project on Security and Threats.
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