WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.208
The unknown is an essential ingredient.
00:00:03.665 --> 00:00:06.291
Otherwise you get a fixed routine.
00:00:06.291 --> 00:00:17.250
And that is not a livening, If you want to be creative experimentation, seeing a moment of opportunity and following on the impulse.
00:00:17.250 --> 00:00:19.041
You don't know if you're going to succeed.
00:00:19.041 --> 00:00:21.332
But but somehow you allowed it.
00:00:21.332 --> 00:00:25.207
You saw the moment, felt the impulse, and you went.
00:00:25.207 --> 00:00:26.000
You went with it.
00:00:29.125 --> 00:00:35.082
When we watch soccer, something happens that has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with it.
00:00:35.082 --> 00:00:40.957
Welcome to the Golden Ball, where depth psychology and the beautiful game help us play life better.
00:00:40.957 --> 00:00:45.165
My name is John O'Brien, former World Cup soccer player and sports psychologist.
00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:46.665
My name is Machiel Klerk.
00:00:46.665 --> 00:00:49.582
I'm a psychotherapist and lover of the game.
00:00:49.665 --> 00:00:51.915
And my name is Akke-Jeanne Klerk.
00:00:51.915 --> 00:00:55.207
I'm a personal development coach and a Jungian teacher.
00:00:55.207 --> 00:00:58.457
So we're going to talk about creativity today.
00:00:58.457 --> 00:01:04.207
And I was able to attend the first US game against Paraguay.
00:01:04.375 --> 00:01:12.707
And reflecting back, there was a moment I remember it was in the second half and the US was kind of pressing Paraguay.
00:01:12.707 --> 00:01:15.500
I think McKennie kind of pressed someone.
00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:20.750
The guy decided to make a pass back to a center center back, which is a risky pass.
00:01:20.750 --> 00:01:24.957
And Malik Tillman, Midfielder read it and stepped in.
00:01:24.957 --> 00:01:30.625
And he did this great first time touch to Ricardo Pepi and the center forward.
00:01:30.625 --> 00:01:31.707
And it looked like he was in.
00:01:31.707 --> 00:01:33.500
And I remember thinking like oh he's in.
00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:34.832
He's going to take a touch and shot.
00:01:34.832 --> 00:01:38.207
Like my mind was already thinking what was going to happen next.
00:01:39.250 --> 00:01:40.457
And he did a one-touch.
00:01:40.457 --> 00:01:49.082
Instead of doing that, he did a one touch back to Tillman and you could hear the crowd just kind of like, what's going to happen?
00:01:49.082 --> 00:01:53.332
Like something totally unpredictable happened.
00:01:53.707 --> 00:01:54.832
Tillman took a touch.
00:01:54.832 --> 00:01:55.957
The defender closed him down.
00:01:55.957 --> 00:01:58.000
He was able to get a shot off the keeper blocked it.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:06.375
But I was just reflecting back on that moment, how it was something really different from what I expected and what everyone in the stadium really expected.
00:02:06.375 --> 00:02:09.207
And it was kind of a beautiful moment of something different happening.
00:02:09.207 --> 00:02:23.375
So I thought that'd be a good starting point for us as we kind of lean into thinking about creativity in sport and creativity in life, and what depth psychology and sports psychology have to say about it.
00:02:23.832 --> 00:02:26.000
yeah, that's a fascinating example John.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:30.750
And fantastic that you were live present at the game.
00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:34.040
It's an that must have been a joy.
00:02:35.125 --> 00:03:07.625
I think it's a great example on on how in sports there is a combination between practicing a skill, being ready for for the game and then having an original response to an original situation and how to be creative in the moment is, is part of what the exploration we have today.
00:03:07.625 --> 00:03:13.415
And I think top sport can help us understand what they do it.
00:03:13.665 --> 00:03:20.790
If you didn't train, if you didn't practice, this would never be able to happen.
00:03:20.875 --> 00:03:26.000
Yet only training and practice doesn't allow for creativity to be there either.
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:34.375
So it's a creativity is a nice and it's an interesting phenomenon to to explore.
00:03:34.375 --> 00:03:34.665
Yeah.
00:03:34.665 --> 00:03:52.540
And I noticed as well, like the moment that you're describing John, there have been several moments like that while watching the game that are games that something happens that's unexpected, like you say, and it's going in a different direction than one would expect.
00:03:52.540 --> 00:04:01.250
So there's something really original in the in the direction, and that is part of that creativity.
00:04:01.290 --> 00:04:05.375
Like, oh, you couldn't expect it or it's it's something different.
00:04:05.375 --> 00:04:15.500
There is something almost other unknown in it that suddenly surfaces.
00:04:15.665 --> 00:04:16.250
Yeah.
00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:36.875
That enters I mean, I mean it to my own mind when I played soccer and as an amateur, and I remember passing a dribbling towards a person and then I lobbed it with my right foot over the, the person to the right.
00:04:36.875 --> 00:04:41.750
And I remember thinking afterwards, that happened to me.
00:04:41.750 --> 00:04:44.500
It's not I didn't think about it before.
00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:46.000
I didn't really think in the moment.
00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.750
Oh, I now go to the right.
00:04:47.750 --> 00:04:50.290
It just happened.
00:04:50.290 --> 00:04:53.125
And.
00:04:53.125 --> 00:04:59.708
As something appears to enter us because we're prepared.
00:04:59.708 --> 00:05:02.500
Yeah, that's such a great way to describe it.
00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:06.708
I'm thinking of the term like conscious control, right.
00:05:06.708 --> 00:05:10.500
There's, there's I think this is a beauty of Jung in psychology.
00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:18.875
And also what I do here in my counseling room is like in some ways, we're opening up to an intelligence in our system.
00:05:18.875 --> 00:05:20.625
And you have a great way of describing this.
00:05:20.625 --> 00:05:25.958
And I'd love to throw this back to you after this, but we're opening up to a different intelligence coming in.
00:05:25.958 --> 00:05:27.875
That's not about conscious control, right?
00:05:27.875 --> 00:05:41.458
Conscious controls super useful in a lot of situations, and it's a necessary it's part of our makeup and the benefit of conscious control, letting go and kind of trusting other parts of ourselves.
00:05:41.458 --> 00:06:19.333
So, Machiel, can you tell us a little bit more about how you think about, I guess, the practice of inviting creativity? And I what comes to mind is the, the, the old notion in, for example, the Greek tradition where the writers or the musicians would think they have a muse and they petition the muse to be present so that the muse can live through them and deliver a piece of music or a poem or something.
00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:33.333
What these days sometimes is being called as I got a download, and it is an imaginal way of merging with the creative spirit.
00:06:33.333 --> 00:06:46.125
So you have somewhat the I the ego in Jungian psychology and the creative spirit, or in the Greek tradition, the muse or the daimon or the Roman name for it is the genius.
00:06:46.125 --> 00:07:11.833
So everyone has a genius and creative spirit, and they have it, and they are not the creative spirit and, and the way is to become a vessel and invite a spirit in so that it can live through us, we can talk more about how to do that and how to tent this, this, this, this muse or daimon or genius.
00:07:11.833 --> 00:07:14.540
Yeah, that is one way of thinking about creativity.
00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:14.915
Yeah.
00:07:14.915 --> 00:07:16.000
And it links also to talent.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.208
And it links also to talent.
00:07:18.208 --> 00:07:24.333
I think like a talent in Latin means something like an inclination.
00:07:24.333 --> 00:07:28.458
So if you have a talent, you just feel an impulse to do something.
00:07:28.458 --> 00:07:31.540
So you might have an impulse to play with a ball.
00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:34.290
You might have an impulse to sing.
00:07:34.290 --> 00:07:35.540
That is the talent.
00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:38.958
But it doesn't say anything about how big the talent is.
00:07:38.958 --> 00:07:46.875
But it shows that maybe creativity and that talent impulse, you feel it inside of your body.
00:07:46.875 --> 00:07:56.915
So it's that's how the daimon or the the genius speaks to you really through that impulse, I think.
00:07:56.915 --> 00:07:58.540
So how was that for you, John?
00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:01.833
You've been playing soccer.
00:08:02.458 --> 00:08:07.375
How did you relate to that impulse within?
00:08:07.375 --> 00:08:07.708
Yeah.
00:08:07.708 --> 00:08:12.415
You know, a lot of playing soccer and like learning to be a professional soccer player.
00:08:12.415 --> 00:08:14.415
You're practicing and you're trying to stuff out.
00:08:14.415 --> 00:08:19.250
And later as a psychologist, I'm thinking about it and finding the words for it.
00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:20.625
So it's kind of fascinating.
00:08:20.625 --> 00:08:42.000
I love this idea of like a host where, you know, I have my pre-game rituals that would kind of allow me to feel calm enough to kind of I think it's inviting in that spirit of play and my creativity and my ability to kind of let go of conscious control and trust.
00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.750
Trust my skills and my talent.
00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:52.125
You know, sports psychology, the term automaticity of skills comes up a lot where it's like there's another part of us that just knows how to do it, right.
00:08:52.125 --> 00:08:56.207
You've repeated it so many times, and that's really what you need to bring forward.
00:08:56.207 --> 00:09:00.582
So I never thought of it as like rituals to invite in that spirit.
00:09:00.582 --> 00:09:07.791
But that's a really great way of thinking about it because I had my pre-game routines, I would like had meditate beforehand.
00:09:07.791 --> 00:09:09.625
I'd do some imagery.
00:09:09.625 --> 00:09:17.957
You know, there was a way before games where I would just kind of, you know, go do a little light stretching first, then I would come, come back.
00:09:17.957 --> 00:09:23.250
So there was this whole kind of actually a whole weekly rhythm that would work around soccer games.
00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:26.957
And I think inviting in that, that spirit.
00:09:27.707 --> 00:09:34.750
Yeah. And current day might call that superstition, which is a.
00:09:36.625 --> 00:09:42.625
A term because our culture has lost a natural way of being in touch with the other world.
00:09:42.625 --> 00:09:53.457
And the other world is the world where the daimon, the genius, the muse lives, and superstition is is a way of doing a ritual.
00:09:53.875 --> 00:09:57.082
And you see a lot of players first the left shoe, the right shoe.
00:09:57.082 --> 00:10:00.916
They touch themselves in some way before they step on the field.
00:10:00.916 --> 00:10:06.875
And people have it in all kinds of ways in their day to day life.
00:10:06.875 --> 00:10:21.832
And and that is actually if you bring a little bit attention to it, you turn the the habits or the superstitions into an active way of engaging with the talent, the genius.
00:10:22.166 --> 00:10:42.332
And it sounds like you really become a vessel for that creative impulse that you can follow on that, that when the daimon speaks to you through that creative impulse, you want to make sure that your that you're there, that you, that you can tune into it.
00:10:42.332 --> 00:10:48.332
And I think and that's what I also like about about the ritual.
00:10:48.332 --> 00:11:05.041
It's not something you do just once a week, but there's an old set, an entire set of rituals leading up to it and listening to that impulse from within, there's probably not just happening on the pitch, is also happening outside the pitch.
00:11:05.041 --> 00:11:10.166
When you're in...outside the pitch.
00:11:10.207 --> 00:11:11.457
Yeah.
00:11:11.457 --> 00:11:13.541
That is a beautiful idea.
00:11:13.541 --> 00:11:29.707
Like I would love to like look at that specifically, like how a team kind of culture invites in, you know, this this creative spirit as day game day comes closer and what actually shifts if you had, you know, could be a fly on the wall in a team.
00:11:29.707 --> 00:11:36.875
I bet there would be some really observable things of what people are doing without even knowing it. Yeah.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.416
I really good coach can does that.
00:11:41.416 --> 00:12:04.416
And they allow for the team to be in touch with the other world and getting some cohesion and not such a great coaches don't think that direction and, and even whether they do it instinctively or not, you can see it play out and.
00:12:06.291 --> 00:12:16.250
Yes, I wonder Machiel, if, how, what would be conditions that are really favorable for inviting the spirit in?
00:12:16.332 --> 00:12:17.291
Well.
00:12:17.291 --> 00:12:35.207
The... it is ritual, and ritual is a word for grinding this reality a word for grinding this reality so that it becomes open to the other world And the other world is not some distant place behind some star far away.
00:12:35.207 --> 00:12:38.000
But it is literally just in the here and now.
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.791
And Jung would call it the collective unconscious.
00:12:41.791 --> 00:12:50.916
So how do you get in touch with different aspects of the unconscious or different energy states or more indigenous way The other world or the daimon.
00:12:51.332 --> 00:13:03.666
And ritual is that And, ritual can be handed down, that you do the same things or you personalize it.
00:13:03.666 --> 00:13:09.125
But the main thing is that you bring attentive awareness to your actions.
00:13:09.207 --> 00:13:10.375
So we could
00:13:14.041 --> 00:13:17.582
light a candle, say a prayer, do a meditation.
00:13:17.582 --> 00:13:22.541
do a meditation First your left shoe, then your right shoe.
00:13:22.541 --> 00:13:28.125
But when you do, that, first left shoe then the right shoe, maybe you talk to the creative spirit.
00:13:28.125 --> 00:13:29.582
You say creative spirit.
00:13:29.582 --> 00:13:32.125
I'm now getting ready.
00:13:32.125 --> 00:13:35.041
I cannot do this on my own.
00:13:35.041 --> 00:13:36.250
I need you.
00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:38.791
So let's do this together.
00:13:38.791 --> 00:13:47.625
And then you do your left shoe, and then you do your right shoe, and then you create conditions that are most favorable.
00:13:47.625 --> 00:13:49.291
You never know.
00:13:49.291 --> 00:13:53.000
Sometimes the creative spirit doesn't completely show up.
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:58.125
And especially in soccer, it's difficult because you play at 3 p.m.
00:13:58.166 --> 00:14:02.875
and then the spirit needs to be there.
00:14:02.875 --> 00:14:21.207
Where I've seen, for example, when I visit the indigenous cultures in South Africa, you go to the Sangoma, the healer, and what the And then you wait and the Sangoma in its own way, gets in touch with the creative spirit.
00:14:21.207 --> 00:14:25.000
In this case, it's a healing spirit, a healing genius.
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.625
And sometimes he says, I can’t feel it.
00:14:28.666 --> 00:14:30.291
He's not here.
00:14:30.291 --> 00:14:32.916
Come back later.
00:14:32.916 --> 00:14:37.082
In South Africa that's no problem.
00:14:37.125 --> 00:14:43.041
The indigenous culture knows that this, that how it works.
00:14:43.041 --> 00:14:49.791
If our doctor in in the hospital here would say I don't feel I'm in touch with the creative daimon.
00:14:49.791 --> 00:14:51.000
Come back later.
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.000
You get sued.
00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:00.000
But it's but it is a ritual that that does it.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.291
And ritual is a focused way of being present.
00:15:04.375 --> 00:15:11.000
And you can feel when the ritual is active, when it feels alive.
00:15:11.791 --> 00:15:20.832
To make one more step is like in in church, they do a lot of rituals, some churches more than others, but church does ritual.
00:15:20.832 --> 00:15:26.457
Some people sit in the in the church and they feel the aliveness of the ritual.
00:15:26.916 --> 00:15:29.625
They feel the aliveness of the mass.
00:15:29.625 --> 00:15:31.957
Other people sit there and they feel nothing.
00:15:33.457 --> 00:15:37.000
And so there are not engaged in the ritual.
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:38.332
The ritual is not alive.
00:15:38.332 --> 00:15:43.375
Or the person performing it is not bringing aliveness to it.
00:15:43.375 --> 00:15:51.707
Like a bad coach, by which the congregation gets lifted up into a different state of consciousness.
00:15:51.750 --> 00:16:08.250
So focus, attention, aliveness, and then it doesn't matter much what you do, but that you do something that that helps one transition into a relationship or an embodiment of the creative talent.
00:16:09.166 --> 00:16:09.541
Yeah.
00:16:09.541 --> 00:16:13.916
And as I hear you talk, it sounds like becoming that vessel.
00:16:13.916 --> 00:16:19.125
You need to you need to also have your emotion.
00:16:19.125 --> 00:16:22.000
You need to regulate your emotions.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:32.082
And I know, John, that you work a lot with emotional regulation and the nervous system because you need a certain calmness to be receptive.
00:16:34.291 --> 00:16:35.041
Yeah.
00:16:35.041 --> 00:16:41.000
And I think going off of this conversation like one place of ritual.
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:41.207
Right.
00:16:41.207 --> 00:16:47.500
There's an inviting in and I think superstition sometimes or some things could be about warding off.
00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:59.332
And I think that that perspective is often something I work with people where it's like they're doing something to try to get rid of tension, and sometimes you need to have some way of expelling tension.
00:16:59.332 --> 00:17:00.500
Right. I'm nervous before the game.
00:17:00.500 --> 00:17:01.916
Okay, shake it off.
00:17:01.916 --> 00:17:03.541
Take some deep breaths.
00:17:03.541 --> 00:17:07.583
But it's a different thing when you're inviting in something else to help you out.
00:17:07.583 --> 00:17:09.333
That's like a different perspective.
00:17:09.333 --> 00:17:13.583
That's really an important shift, I think.
00:17:13.583 --> 00:17:21.250
And with emotional regulation, like you said, sometimes the spirit doesn't visit you and you still have to go out and play the game.
00:17:21.250 --> 00:17:23.333
You know, sometimes it's not and you have to.
00:17:23.333 --> 00:17:24.500
People make a big deal.
00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:25.915
Oh, I'm not in the right space. I'm not.
00:17:25.915 --> 00:17:27.665
I'm struggling. I'm tight. Whatever.
00:17:27.665 --> 00:17:29.583
You know, it's like, okay, I'm not.
00:17:29.583 --> 00:17:33.083
But I still, you know, I still know these skills well enough.
00:17:33.083 --> 00:17:34.040
I still can do it.
00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:39.540
Often when people do this, it's it's not as enjoyable the game.
00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:43.458
They could still be effective, but it's more effortful.
00:17:43.458 --> 00:17:44.915
It's less enjoyable.
00:17:44.915 --> 00:17:47.833
It's what you could call kind of like clutch performance.
00:17:47.833 --> 00:17:53.500
We're using a lot of conscious control to try to make it happen, and you can still do pretty good in that.
00:17:53.500 --> 00:18:02.040
And like, and this is people's lives, you're going to have moments where you have to do this, where the spirit isn't going to be kind of flowing through you in the same way.
00:18:03.125 --> 00:18:15.375
So those are just things I wanted to add to it that I think really speak to to managing ourselves with the spirit, coming and going and being kind of okay with that.
00:18:15.790 --> 00:18:16.290
Yeah.
00:18:16.290 --> 00:18:19.625
And what I, what I see there as well is willpower.
00:18:19.625 --> 00:18:28.500
You know, in some players in the World Cup as well, I totally understand you know, the game is those 90 minutes you're there and it needs to happen.
00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:32.165
And of course you hope that the spirits are with you.
00:18:32.165 --> 00:18:34.458
But you're in the field.
00:18:34.458 --> 00:18:50.625
But you can see that some players are really in there with the willpower, almost, almost with that attitude preventing the creative, the creativity to to be there as well.
00:18:51.583 --> 00:18:51.833
Yeah.
00:18:51.833 --> 00:19:01.333
And then some players are live too much in the, in the idea that this, this this vessel is just an I, I do these things.
00:19:01.333 --> 00:19:02.833
I can do this.
00:19:02.833 --> 00:19:05.833
I am capable of these things.
00:19:06.415 --> 00:19:09.790
Then then it becomes all up on, on me.
00:19:09.790 --> 00:19:15.583
And what if you loosen that up and invite the unknown in?
00:19:15.583 --> 00:19:20.208
And then it's not just, I need to do this.
00:19:20.208 --> 00:19:27.208
And if you live in too much of an I this vessel is a singular I vessel.
00:19:27.665 --> 00:19:29.040
Then you get.
00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:32.040
That's one way why people get that way.
00:19:32.165 --> 00:19:35.665
And of course, the willpower is there.
00:19:35.665 --> 00:19:39.665
When the spirit doesn't show up, you still have to to go.
00:19:39.665 --> 00:19:46.290
And you have a set of skills that works, but it's that, that could help people.
00:19:46.625 --> 00:20:05.083
Also, the people that listen to this and when they want to write and invite and tend to the muse or if they want to cook, if you have a cooking spirit, you will know if it's there or not.
00:20:05.083 --> 00:20:09.250
And you can you can apply this to your to your own life.
00:20:10.208 --> 00:20:13.458
Getting being in that right vessel.
00:20:13.625 --> 00:20:20.415
What I hear is letting go of your your fears or letting go of that tension.
00:20:20.415 --> 00:20:23.208
Letting go of the idea of I need to do it.
00:20:23.208 --> 00:20:30.875
It's really co-creation between you as the ego, Latin for I, and something larger or something different.
00:20:30.875 --> 00:20:31.875
The unconscious.
00:20:31.875 --> 00:20:38.833
We would say in Jungian psychology that it's really a co-creation.
00:20:38.833 --> 00:20:46.665
And I think where it links to our previous episode is letting go of your identity as well.
00:20:46.665 --> 00:20:55.165
And becoming a more fluid identity really invites invite creativity.
00:20:55.165 --> 00:21:17.125
You know, I saw this interview with Mbappé that I thought was really interesting, that he used to play on the left side of this field, and he was moved to the right side of the field these days, or the latest games he was playing in the middle and he says, I'm really I'm really open to wherever they place me.
00:21:17.125 --> 00:21:31.415
He really has that fluidity in skills, but also in in the container or so I'm not sure what it is, but I thought that's quite remarkable to be so open.
00:21:31.415 --> 00:21:32.708
Yeah.
00:21:32.708 --> 00:21:34.708
I mean mental flexibility.
00:21:34.708 --> 00:21:35.000
Right.
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:41.915
That's I guess a byproduct maybe of the spirit being there of and it ties into creativity.
00:21:41.915 --> 00:21:45.375
When we're creative, we can have a lot of mental flexibility.
00:21:47.125 --> 00:21:53.708
I really like this deep this relationship idea and deep positioning the ego in some ways. Right.
00:21:53.708 --> 00:22:00.458
Because that's a place where a lot of athletes, right, or young people learning to be humans.
00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:03.208
And that's a place that a lot of athletes get stuck.
00:22:03.208 --> 00:22:03.540
Right.
00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:05.790
You have kind of the spirit comes in.
00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:10.165
You can have this huge rush of emotions and energy.
00:22:10.790 --> 00:22:18.708
And when you kind of think that I did that, usually after the game, you think of all those rituals before the game to invite in the spirit.
00:22:18.708 --> 00:22:26.625
But there's not many rituals after the game to like, let it go and come back to being a person again, to come back after that kind of huge high.
00:22:26.625 --> 00:22:32.000
And so I really like that idea of like welcoming it in and welcoming it out.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:40.875
And I find that for athletes, if they can kind of think a little bit more about their sport, sport as a practice.
00:22:41.415 --> 00:22:41.665
Right.
00:22:41.665 --> 00:22:44.583
It's kind of a practice in doing these kind of things.
00:22:44.583 --> 00:22:55.625
You're letting the spirit in, you're letting it out and you're keeping it, keeping kind of a stable ego that that's really been a beneficial shift for them.
00:22:55.958 --> 00:22:58.000
It's not all about external success.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.333
You don't know what's going to happen, what's happening.
00:23:00.333 --> 00:23:12.750
But it's a continual practice, like maybe probably as a show, showing up, knowing his best routines to kind of welcome it and then let it go and be kind of a normal person in some ways. After.
00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:13.083
Yeah.
00:23:13.083 --> 00:23:31.500
Yeah, that is beautiful to have a thank you gratitude practice after you have visited of being visited with by the creative spirit and and that keeps you keeps you sane and human too.
00:23:32.333 --> 00:23:33.165
Yeah.
00:23:33.165 --> 00:23:37.290
What I was thinking back on my playing career and creativity.
00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:39.083
I thought of a moment.
00:23:39.083 --> 00:23:48.833
And for me, so often with creativity on the field and as you're watching the World Cup, I wonder if you could think about this, but there's usually a moment where there's some tension, some risk.
00:23:48.833 --> 00:23:55.750
So I was thinking, there's a time at Ajax when I was playing left back, we were pushed up in the other teams half.
00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:58.750
So there's a lot of empty space behind me, just the goalie.
00:23:58.750 --> 00:24:05.208
Our right back decides to do a big switch to me, and he hits it way over my head and towards the sideline.
00:24:05.208 --> 00:24:12.875
And part of me thinks like, okay, I could just kind of flick it out for a thrilling like, that's kind of maybe a little bit of an automatic, simple response.
00:24:12.875 --> 00:24:13.790
But I don't know.
00:24:13.790 --> 00:24:17.750
I got excited about like, oh, this is a moment I could try something.
00:24:17.750 --> 00:24:22.500
So I remember, like turning in the balls, flying over my head and headed towards the sideline.
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:29.040
Our benches are there, the opposing coach and the opposition forwards pressing up on me right there.
00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:30.040
So comes over.
00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:31.833
I feel this tension to my body.
00:24:31.833 --> 00:24:34.165
I'm able to slowly like bring the ball down.
00:24:34.165 --> 00:24:35.083
I don't know what I'm doing.
00:24:35.083 --> 00:24:37.500
I don't have a plan at this point, right?
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:39.625
But I'm like, I'm just going to try something here.
00:24:39.625 --> 00:24:53.083
I'm able to control it just enough so it bounces up slightly, and then I'm able to do a Cruyff turn as I get the pressure from the forward, and I find this space and I get this huge adrenaline rush afterwards of like, there's so much tension there.
00:24:53.083 --> 00:24:56.833
I didn't know what was going to happen and that, well, it worked out.
00:24:56.833 --> 00:25:03.415
I was able to move the ball forward and make a pass and and the stadium was like, oh, I had one of those moments.
00:25:03.415 --> 00:25:10.458
So I think back on like how pressure and maybe a little bit of inhibition.
00:25:10.458 --> 00:25:10.750
Right.
00:25:10.750 --> 00:25:27.708
Stopping stopping an easy response like inviting in kind of like that moment of uncertainty and how that has something to do with creativity at the high levels where it's like, okay, I'm okay being in a space where I'm not sure what's going to happen and there's a little danger or risk.
00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:35.333
I like there what you're saying that it asks for experimentation.
00:25:35.333 --> 00:25:43.750
If you want to be creative experimentation, seeing a moment of opportunity and following on the impulse.
00:25:43.750 --> 00:25:45.540
You don't know if you're going to succeed.
00:25:45.540 --> 00:25:47.833
But but somehow you allowed it.
00:25:47.833 --> 00:25:51.708
You saw the moment, felt the impulse, and you went.
00:25:51.708 --> 00:25:52.665
You went with it.
00:25:52.665 --> 00:26:06.415
And I think that experimentation is really important because it's more about the attitude that you have that you're willing to try or be curious about, about what if that something new can actually emerge.
00:26:06.415 --> 00:26:08.083
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:08.083 --> 00:26:11.290
The unknown is an essential ingredient.
00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:14.375
Otherwise you get a fixed routine.
00:26:14.375 --> 00:26:16.915
And that is not a livening.
00:26:16.915 --> 00:26:18.665
That is a ceremony.
00:26:18.665 --> 00:26:24.708
And if it's the in the ritual, there's the unknown is part of it.
00:26:24.708 --> 00:26:27.583
And then you'll you'll see you you don't know.
00:26:28.750 --> 00:26:33.290
It reminds me of a while ago I saw a documentary of Picasso.
00:26:33.290 --> 00:26:37.415
And then they have a glass wall and then the camera behind it.
00:26:37.415 --> 00:26:47.375
And Picasso is making drawings, and he just stands there and make something and look at it and think, whoa, sensational.
00:26:47.375 --> 00:26:53.250
And then because it looks at it and shakes his head and cleans it and does it again, make something else.
00:26:53.250 --> 00:27:03.165
And again, a beautiful it cleans it again and, and then he makes something and he looks at it. Yeah. That's it.
00:27:03.165 --> 00:27:08.375
And so he, he, he allows the creative spirit to flow through him.
00:27:08.375 --> 00:27:13.290
And then on a certain moment he goes like, there we go.
00:27:13.290 --> 00:27:20.500
And so you need to have that, you need to allow it to, to go with the risk.
00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:27.625
That cannot just mean if you're embodied by the creative spirit that things work out.
00:27:28.915 --> 00:27:34.125
But if you're not embodied by the creative spirits, definitely not going to work out.
00:27:34.833 --> 00:27:35.665
Yeah, there's.
00:27:35.665 --> 00:27:37.540
There's like a working component.
00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:40.583
There's also for people in general, like creativity.
00:27:40.583 --> 00:27:42.708
I think it's just a good healthy thing.
00:27:42.708 --> 00:27:44.790
Like it helps our mental health.
00:27:44.790 --> 00:27:51.040
It taps into different parts of our brain, different parts of our world, like just different parts of our being.
00:27:51.040 --> 00:27:54.333
That's just useful and useful, but good.
00:27:54.375 --> 00:27:55.250
Good in ways.
00:27:55.250 --> 00:28:05.833
And it's something often we can get bogged down and like to do's and practical and stuff like that, but those moments can really be enlivening.
00:28:05.833 --> 00:28:06.375
Yeah.
00:28:06.375 --> 00:28:32.458
Every grooving defines creativity as an attitude towards life, or it's a way of relating to life, and that really takes it away from just that one creative moment, but that there is something in your attitude towards life, in the way that you respond, that has a level of fluidity and experimentation and curiosity in it.
00:28:34.250 --> 00:28:45.958
Like what I also saw in that interview with Mbappé was that the French coach asked him, after your career what do you want to do with with football?
00:28:45.958 --> 00:28:48.250
Will you become a coach or...?
00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:50.375
And he said with it just for a little bit.
00:28:50.375 --> 00:28:57.333
And he said, you know, I'm giving myself the freedom to decide in the moment if I want to become a businessman, I'll do that.
00:28:57.333 --> 00:29:00.165
If I want to become a trainer, I'll do that.
00:29:00.165 --> 00:29:03.708
But if I want to do nothing for a bit, I'll do that.
00:29:03.708 --> 00:29:13.790
And I thought, that is that is such a good illustration of living with the impulse, deciding in the moment rather than planning what you'll do.
00:29:13.833 --> 00:29:16.290
Right now, the impulse is to play soccer.
00:29:16.290 --> 00:29:23.833
So he'll continue doing that, and by then he'll he'll sit with it and see what the impulse is, and he will follow up on it.
00:29:23.833 --> 00:29:27.250
Which which is really a creative lifestyle.
00:29:27.290 --> 00:29:29.708
Yeah. Super creative.
00:29:29.708 --> 00:29:34.290
And and so it's so hard, so hard to do.
00:29:34.915 --> 00:29:35.333
Right.
00:29:35.333 --> 00:29:39.750
Like to stay with it and feel open and trusting.
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:40.665
Right.
00:29:40.665 --> 00:29:43.958
I think we're talking about kind of the conditions.
00:29:43.958 --> 00:29:44.415
Right.
00:29:44.415 --> 00:30:01.583
Worry, think about worry, planning different things that come up, whether it's from our kind of ego or from our self, different anxieties that can come up that really kind of take us away from maybe a little bit more of an openness, right, that are going to close us off ways.
00:30:01.583 --> 00:30:04.000
We're going to avoid certain things.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:04.708
Yeah.
00:30:04.708 --> 00:30:12.750
Yeah, you have to be present in the moment because that is where where the creative spirit flows through and into the world.
00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:30.083
And if you already prepare, you can sometimes see it in a soccer player when they run towards the, the goalie of the opponent with the ball and that they start, they start thinking, shall I go left or right?
00:30:30.083 --> 00:30:40.000
And you see that they become a little bit more clunky in their, in their movements and, and most of the time it doesn't work out.
00:30:40.125 --> 00:30:57.708
And if they and what the what with these great talents comes natural because they are so good they they're trusting it comes is that they just run like Mbappé and then they can make the decision, Something in them makes the decision in the moment.
00:30:57.708 --> 00:31:03.165
And that has the highest chance to, to be interesting and successful.
00:31:03.790 --> 00:31:08.790
So yeah, you have to be you have to approach life as a every day.
00:31:08.790 --> 00:31:11.125
Every moment is as a fresh.
00:31:13.165 --> 00:31:15.000
Phenomenon.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:15.290
Yeah.
00:31:15.290 --> 00:31:19.083
And I pay attention to the moments where we want to close down. Right.
00:31:19.083 --> 00:31:28.290
Like those moments when you can feel because this is I think the body is a big part in creativity.
00:31:28.290 --> 00:31:32.000
There's just, I think, more of a kind of unconscious in the mind.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.750
So your body and your intuition is kind of acting.
00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:42.915
So paying attention to the body and when it might tighten right around things and just seeing if you can loosen and open up a little bit more. Right.
00:31:42.915 --> 00:31:45.415
Because sometimes we're not even sure.
00:31:45.415 --> 00:31:48.250
Right, what we're kind of tightening up against.
00:31:48.250 --> 00:31:56.000
But if there's a little bit of openness, something else can kind of enter our consciousness and gives us some freedom to then kind of work with that.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:02.708
Yeah. Well. And very in psychology, those are those are trauma responses, survival mechanisms.
00:32:02.790 --> 00:32:15.500
So you see quite a bunch of soccer players not not getting to the peak of their ability because they haven't dealt with some trauma in their life.
00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:21.458
And, and the and the survival responses that come with it.
00:32:21.458 --> 00:32:25.625
And they, they block a genuine creativity.
00:32:27.375 --> 00:32:33.208
But even without trauma, I can see that I killed my own creativity several times in my life.
00:32:33.208 --> 00:32:43.250
You know, like if I have a good idea that I feel like maybe for a Jung Platform creating a course and then thinking, but who is interested in it?
00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:57.750
So even there, I'm already thinking about the outcome or about an audience, rather than following my own impulse, giving myself the freedom to see what wants to express through me.
00:32:57.750 --> 00:32:59.915
I'm thinking like, oh, will it be useful?
00:32:59.915 --> 00:33:10.583
So I'm more I'm more interested in the outcome than in the process, which is, of course, a really good way to kill, to kill the fun and to to kill the project.
00:33:10.583 --> 00:33:10.958
Yeah.
00:33:10.958 --> 00:33:16.915
There's such a my first introduction to sports psychology came to this book The Inner Game of Tennis. It's my The Inner Game of Tennis.
00:33:16.915 --> 00:33:19.833
So I first like real like I love this.
00:33:19.833 --> 00:33:24.375
And it was talking about this Gallwey and it was self one and self two.
00:33:24.375 --> 00:33:26.040
What you're illustrating was a self two.
00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:30.375
Like something comes kind of some impulse comes from the body.
00:33:30.540 --> 00:33:31.750
It feels natural.
00:33:31.750 --> 00:33:35.708
And then there's the judger that comes in the evaluator, right.
00:33:35.708 --> 00:33:36.750
And shuts it down.
00:33:36.750 --> 00:33:45.708
And a lot of Gallwey's work was about kind of noticing those two different things and trying to be when you're performing, trying to be in self 2.
00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:53.500
Yeah, I think it's a little more complicated than that when we're working with people, because that self one is valuable in certain ways.
00:33:53.500 --> 00:34:02.708
We have to learn to work with it, but it can definitely be a shutdown when you start judging and analyzing things to shut down to our creative spirit.
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:04.875
Yeah.
00:34:04.875 --> 00:34:17.666
You know, in the coaching world, sometimes metaphors are used like the if you want to know if a seed is growing, you don't look in the ground all the time. Is it already happening?
00:34:17.666 --> 00:34:24.125
You know, there is something of creativity and a growth process that seems to have its own timeline.
00:34:24.125 --> 00:34:28.833
So do you trust the timeline of, of the unknown?
00:34:28.833 --> 00:34:34.458
And and it has more to do with serving rather than, I don't know, pulling, pulling grass.
00:34:34.458 --> 00:34:36.583
It doesn't grow faster if you pull it.
00:34:36.583 --> 00:34:41.583
You know, there's and there's something with talent and creativity as well.
00:34:41.666 --> 00:35:05.000
And and and how do you create your, your if your body is the garden, how do you create a, a garden or a or an embodied space that allows for these creative ways to to come and and flourish to it?
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:25.708
It brings the notion of talent also slightly different that effect that that the creative spirit or the daimon is already somewhat fully formed and you need to your body need to and your skill set need to catch up so that it can can come through you.
00:35:25.708 --> 00:35:31.083
So it's not even that, that the that the talent is the is a little seat that needs to grow.
00:35:31.083 --> 00:35:37.625
It's you that needs to get in a place by which the spirit can, can go through you.
00:35:37.625 --> 00:35:52.666
Because we all know those people that are three years old and make a sensational drawings or at five play piano, that that cannot be explained by some ego activity.
00:35:52.666 --> 00:35:58.333
That's there's the talent already fully there flowing through.
00:35:58.333 --> 00:36:00.625
So so acting on that impulse.
00:36:00.666 --> 00:36:03.958
What a child of course, spontaneously does it.
00:36:03.958 --> 00:36:05.875
It acts on impulses.
00:36:05.875 --> 00:36:12.166
And somewhere through our life we learn to adapt and maybe ignore some of the impulses.
00:36:12.166 --> 00:36:19.708
But if we want to foster our own creativity, probably it's good to to be aware of the impulses.
00:36:19.708 --> 00:36:24.500
And then still we would need to distinguish between what is the impulse wanting of me?
00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:34.833
Is it really a genuine expression, or is it maybe a habitual response or a psychological complex got triggered and it's really a fear response.
00:36:34.833 --> 00:36:37.833
So what is the impulse really?
00:36:38.708 --> 00:36:41.708
That's where psychological work comes in.
00:36:42.583 --> 00:36:42.791
Yeah.
00:36:42.791 --> 00:36:48.583
And it's it's so valuable to have someone else in there with you to help you distinguish those things.
00:36:48.583 --> 00:36:49.083
Right.
00:36:49.083 --> 00:36:54.958
Like what's a natural impulse and what's a habitual kind of thing arising from the background.
00:36:54.958 --> 00:37:08.625
So what would be our kind of, I guess, takeaways, thinking about creativity and, you know, watching soccer at the World Cup and people learning from it and using things, using these ideas for their own lives.
00:37:08.625 --> 00:37:11.791
What do you guys think would be some kind of top takeaways?
00:37:11.791 --> 00:37:18.750
I think as an as an observer, go with where you're you're a natural attention go.
00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:32.416
So maybe there's one particular soccer player that jumps out for whatever reason, but follow even that impulse in looking looking at the person that somehow interests you are there are parts of the game you know.
00:37:32.416 --> 00:37:36.708
The moment that really fascinates me is the penalty moment.
00:37:36.708 --> 00:37:43.791
Like somehow that I sometimes watch it back and back because there's something fascinating there.
00:37:43.791 --> 00:37:45.375
So that's also an impulse.
00:37:45.375 --> 00:37:50.625
That's also a spontaneous thing that apparently something is happening there.
00:37:50.625 --> 00:37:57.083
That and I give in to it like a repeat, like look again, like what's happening.
00:37:57.125 --> 00:37:57.458
Yeah.
00:37:57.458 --> 00:38:01.666
So that's maybe for the, for the, for the observer.
00:38:02.250 --> 00:38:02.916
That's great.
00:38:02.916 --> 00:38:04.666
I love that. How about you Machiel?
00:38:06.166 --> 00:38:28.125
I would say practice rituals, entrance rituals, exit rituals to to tent, nurture, nourish the spirit that is already there and then see what happens.
00:38:28.125 --> 00:38:35.791
Build a relationship, play and let this.
00:38:35.791 --> 00:38:38.166
That's a big practice.
00:38:38.166 --> 00:38:40.166
How about you, John?
00:38:40.166 --> 00:38:43.166
Anything that comes to mind.
00:38:43.250 --> 00:38:44.416
Yeah.
00:38:44.416 --> 00:38:52.125
This idea what's what I'm taking, taking away from this conversation, this idea of relationship with and kind of positioning with forces.
00:38:52.125 --> 00:38:52.416
Right.
00:38:52.416 --> 00:39:02.916
And there is an element of openness and inviting things in and being okay when, when, when things don't move the way you want.
00:39:03.583 --> 00:39:08.166
So that's kind of a psychological insight that I'm taking away from this.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.208
The unknown is an essential ingredient.
00:00:03.665 --> 00:00:06.291
Otherwise you get a fixed routine.
00:00:06.291 --> 00:00:17.250
And that is not a livening, If you want to be creative experimentation, seeing a moment of opportunity and following on the impulse.
00:00:17.250 --> 00:00:19.041
You don't know if you're going to succeed.
00:00:19.041 --> 00:00:21.332
But but somehow you allowed it.
00:00:21.332 --> 00:00:25.207
You saw the moment, felt the impulse, and you went.
00:00:25.207 --> 00:00:26.000
You went with it.
00:00:29.125 --> 00:00:35.082
When we watch soccer, something happens that has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with it.
00:00:35.082 --> 00:00:40.957
Welcome to the Golden Ball, where depth psychology and the beautiful game help us play life better.
00:00:40.957 --> 00:00:45.165
My name is John O'Brien, former World Cup soccer player and sports psychologist.
00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:46.665
My name is Machiel Klerk.
00:00:46.665 --> 00:00:49.582
I'm a psychotherapist and lover of the game.
00:00:49.665 --> 00:00:51.915
And my name is Akke-Jeanne Klerk.
00:00:51.915 --> 00:00:55.207
I'm a personal development coach and a Jungian teacher.
00:00:55.207 --> 00:00:58.457
So we're going to talk about creativity today.
00:00:58.457 --> 00:01:04.207
And I was able to attend the first US game against Paraguay.
00:01:04.375 --> 00:01:12.707
And reflecting back, there was a moment I remember it was in the second half and the US was kind of pressing Paraguay.
00:01:12.707 --> 00:01:15.500
I think McKennie kind of pressed someone.
00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:20.750
The guy decided to make a pass back to a center center back, which is a risky pass.
00:01:20.750 --> 00:01:24.957
And Malik Tillman, Midfielder read it and stepped in.
00:01:24.957 --> 00:01:30.625
And he did this great first time touch to Ricardo Pepi and the center forward.
00:01:30.625 --> 00:01:31.707
And it looked like he was in.
00:01:31.707 --> 00:01:33.500
And I remember thinking like oh he's in.
00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:34.832
He's going to take a touch and shot.
00:01:34.832 --> 00:01:38.207
Like my mind was already thinking what was going to happen next.
00:01:39.250 --> 00:01:40.457
And he did a one-touch.
00:01:40.457 --> 00:01:49.082
Instead of doing that, he did a one touch back to Tillman and you could hear the crowd just kind of like, what's going to happen?
00:01:49.082 --> 00:01:53.332
Like something totally unpredictable happened.
00:01:53.707 --> 00:01:54.832
Tillman took a touch.
00:01:54.832 --> 00:01:55.957
The defender closed him down.
00:01:55.957 --> 00:01:58.000
He was able to get a shot off the keeper blocked it.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:06.375
But I was just reflecting back on that moment, how it was something really different from what I expected and what everyone in the stadium really expected.
00:02:06.375 --> 00:02:09.207
And it was kind of a beautiful moment of something different happening.
00:02:09.207 --> 00:02:23.375
So I thought that'd be a good starting point for us as we kind of lean into thinking about creativity in sport and creativity in life, and what depth psychology and sports psychology have to say about it.
00:02:23.832 --> 00:02:26.000
yeah, that's a fascinating example John.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:30.750
And fantastic that you were live present at the game.
00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:34.040
It's an that must have been a joy.
00:02:35.125 --> 00:03:07.625
I think it's a great example on on how in sports there is a combination between practicing a skill, being ready for for the game and then having an original response to an original situation and how to be creative in the moment is, is part of what the exploration we have today.
00:03:07.625 --> 00:03:13.415
And I think top sport can help us understand what they do it.
00:03:13.665 --> 00:03:20.790
If you didn't train, if you didn't practice, this would never be able to happen.
00:03:20.875 --> 00:03:26.000
Yet only training and practice doesn't allow for creativity to be there either.
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:34.375
So it's a creativity is a nice and it's an interesting phenomenon to to explore.
00:03:34.375 --> 00:03:34.665
Yeah.
00:03:34.665 --> 00:03:52.540
And I noticed as well, like the moment that you're describing John, there have been several moments like that while watching the game that are games that something happens that's unexpected, like you say, and it's going in a different direction than one would expect.
00:03:52.540 --> 00:04:01.250
So there's something really original in the in the direction, and that is part of that creativity.
00:04:01.290 --> 00:04:05.375
Like, oh, you couldn't expect it or it's it's something different.
00:04:05.375 --> 00:04:15.500
There is something almost other unknown in it that suddenly surfaces.
00:04:15.665 --> 00:04:16.250
Yeah.
00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:36.875
That enters I mean, I mean it to my own mind when I played soccer and as an amateur, and I remember passing a dribbling towards a person and then I lobbed it with my right foot over the, the person to the right.
00:04:36.875 --> 00:04:41.750
And I remember thinking afterwards, that happened to me.
00:04:41.750 --> 00:04:44.500
It's not I didn't think about it before.
00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:46.000
I didn't really think in the moment.
00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.750
Oh, I now go to the right.
00:04:47.750 --> 00:04:50.290
It just happened.
00:04:50.290 --> 00:04:53.125
And.
00:04:53.125 --> 00:04:59.708
As something appears to enter us because we're prepared.
00:04:59.708 --> 00:05:02.500
Yeah, that's such a great way to describe it.
00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:06.708
I'm thinking of the term like conscious control, right.
00:05:06.708 --> 00:05:10.500
There's, there's I think this is a beauty of Jung in psychology.
00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:18.875
And also what I do here in my counseling room is like in some ways, we're opening up to an intelligence in our system.
00:05:18.875 --> 00:05:20.625
And you have a great way of describing this.
00:05:20.625 --> 00:05:25.958
And I'd love to throw this back to you after this, but we're opening up to a different intelligence coming in.
00:05:25.958 --> 00:05:27.875
That's not about conscious control, right?
00:05:27.875 --> 00:05:41.458
Conscious controls super useful in a lot of situations, and it's a necessary it's part of our makeup and the benefit of conscious control, letting go and kind of trusting other parts of ourselves.
00:05:41.458 --> 00:06:19.333
So, Machiel, can you tell us a little bit more about how you think about, I guess, the practice of inviting creativity? And I what comes to mind is the, the, the old notion in, for example, the Greek tradition where the writers or the musicians would think they have a muse and they petition the muse to be present so that the muse can live through them and deliver a piece of music or a poem or something.
00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:33.333
What these days sometimes is being called as I got a download, and it is an imaginal way of merging with the creative spirit.
00:06:33.333 --> 00:06:46.125
So you have somewhat the I the ego in Jungian psychology and the creative spirit, or in the Greek tradition, the muse or the daimon or the Roman name for it is the genius.
00:06:46.125 --> 00:07:11.833
So everyone has a genius and creative spirit, and they have it, and they are not the creative spirit and, and the way is to become a vessel and invite a spirit in so that it can live through us, we can talk more about how to do that and how to tent this, this, this, this muse or daimon or genius.
00:07:11.833 --> 00:07:14.540
Yeah, that is one way of thinking about creativity.
00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:14.915
Yeah.
00:07:14.915 --> 00:07:16.000
And it links also to talent.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.208
And it links also to talent.
00:07:18.208 --> 00:07:24.333
I think like a talent in Latin means something like an inclination.
00:07:24.333 --> 00:07:28.458
So if you have a talent, you just feel an impulse to do something.
00:07:28.458 --> 00:07:31.540
So you might have an impulse to play with a ball.
00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:34.290
You might have an impulse to sing.
00:07:34.290 --> 00:07:35.540
That is the talent.
00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:38.958
But it doesn't say anything about how big the talent is.
00:07:38.958 --> 00:07:46.875
But it shows that maybe creativity and that talent impulse, you feel it inside of your body.
00:07:46.875 --> 00:07:56.915
So it's that's how the daimon or the the genius speaks to you really through that impulse, I think.
00:07:56.915 --> 00:07:58.540
So how was that for you, John?
00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:01.833
You've been playing soccer.
00:08:02.458 --> 00:08:07.375
How did you relate to that impulse within?
00:08:07.375 --> 00:08:07.708
Yeah.
00:08:07.708 --> 00:08:12.415
You know, a lot of playing soccer and like learning to be a professional soccer player.
00:08:12.415 --> 00:08:14.415
You're practicing and you're trying to stuff out.
00:08:14.415 --> 00:08:19.250
And later as a psychologist, I'm thinking about it and finding the words for it.
00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:20.625
So it's kind of fascinating.
00:08:20.625 --> 00:08:42.000
I love this idea of like a host where, you know, I have my pre-game rituals that would kind of allow me to feel calm enough to kind of I think it's inviting in that spirit of play and my creativity and my ability to kind of let go of conscious control and trust.
00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.750
Trust my skills and my talent.
00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:52.125
You know, sports psychology, the term automaticity of skills comes up a lot where it's like there's another part of us that just knows how to do it, right.
00:08:52.125 --> 00:08:56.207
You've repeated it so many times, and that's really what you need to bring forward.
00:08:56.207 --> 00:09:00.582
So I never thought of it as like rituals to invite in that spirit.
00:09:00.582 --> 00:09:07.791
But that's a really great way of thinking about it because I had my pre-game routines, I would like had meditate beforehand.
00:09:07.791 --> 00:09:09.625
I'd do some imagery.
00:09:09.625 --> 00:09:17.957
You know, there was a way before games where I would just kind of, you know, go do a little light stretching first, then I would come, come back.
00:09:17.957 --> 00:09:23.250
So there was this whole kind of actually a whole weekly rhythm that would work around soccer games.
00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:26.957
And I think inviting in that, that spirit.
00:09:27.707 --> 00:09:34.750
Yeah. And current day might call that superstition, which is a.
00:09:36.625 --> 00:09:42.625
A term because our culture has lost a natural way of being in touch with the other world.
00:09:42.625 --> 00:09:53.457
And the other world is the world where the daimon, the genius, the muse lives, and superstition is is a way of doing a ritual.
00:09:53.875 --> 00:09:57.082
And you see a lot of players first the left shoe, the right shoe.
00:09:57.082 --> 00:10:00.916
They touch themselves in some way before they step on the field.
00:10:00.916 --> 00:10:06.875
And people have it in all kinds of ways in their day to day life.
00:10:06.875 --> 00:10:21.832
And and that is actually if you bring a little bit attention to it, you turn the the habits or the superstitions into an active way of engaging with the talent, the genius.
00:10:22.166 --> 00:10:42.332
And it sounds like you really become a vessel for that creative impulse that you can follow on that, that when the daimon speaks to you through that creative impulse, you want to make sure that your that you're there, that you, that you can tune into it.
00:10:42.332 --> 00:10:48.332
And I think and that's what I also like about about the ritual.
00:10:48.332 --> 00:11:05.041
It's not something you do just once a week, but there's an old set, an entire set of rituals leading up to it and listening to that impulse from within, there's probably not just happening on the pitch, is also happening outside the pitch.
00:11:05.041 --> 00:11:10.166
When you're in...outside the pitch.
00:11:10.207 --> 00:11:11.457
Yeah.
00:11:11.457 --> 00:11:13.541
That is a beautiful idea.
00:11:13.541 --> 00:11:29.707
Like I would love to like look at that specifically, like how a team kind of culture invites in, you know, this this creative spirit as day game day comes closer and what actually shifts if you had, you know, could be a fly on the wall in a team.
00:11:29.707 --> 00:11:36.875
I bet there would be some really observable things of what people are doing without even knowing it. Yeah.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.416
I really good coach can does that.
00:11:41.416 --> 00:12:04.416
And they allow for the team to be in touch with the other world and getting some cohesion and not such a great coaches don't think that direction and, and even whether they do it instinctively or not, you can see it play out and.
00:12:06.291 --> 00:12:16.250
Yes, I wonder Machiel, if, how, what would be conditions that are really favorable for inviting the spirit in?
00:12:16.332 --> 00:12:17.291
Well.
00:12:17.291 --> 00:12:35.207
The... it is ritual, and ritual is a word for grinding this reality a word for grinding this reality so that it becomes open to the other world And the other world is not some distant place behind some star far away.
00:12:35.207 --> 00:12:38.000
But it is literally just in the here and now.
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.791
And Jung would call it the collective unconscious.
00:12:41.791 --> 00:12:50.916
So how do you get in touch with different aspects of the unconscious or different energy states or more indigenous way The other world or the daimon.
00:12:51.332 --> 00:13:03.666
And ritual is that And, ritual can be handed down, that you do the same things or you personalize it.
00:13:03.666 --> 00:13:09.125
But the main thing is that you bring attentive awareness to your actions.
00:13:09.207 --> 00:13:10.375
So we could
00:13:14.041 --> 00:13:17.582
light a candle, say a prayer, do a meditation.
00:13:17.582 --> 00:13:22.541
do a meditation First your left shoe, then your right shoe.
00:13:22.541 --> 00:13:28.125
But when you do, that, first left shoe then the right shoe, maybe you talk to the creative spirit.
00:13:28.125 --> 00:13:29.582
You say creative spirit.
00:13:29.582 --> 00:13:32.125
I'm now getting ready.
00:13:32.125 --> 00:13:35.041
I cannot do this on my own.
00:13:35.041 --> 00:13:36.250
I need you.
00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:38.791
So let's do this together.
00:13:38.791 --> 00:13:47.625
And then you do your left shoe, and then you do your right shoe, and then you create conditions that are most favorable.
00:13:47.625 --> 00:13:49.291
You never know.
00:13:49.291 --> 00:13:53.000
Sometimes the creative spirit doesn't completely show up.
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:58.125
And especially in soccer, it's difficult because you play at 3 p.m.
00:13:58.166 --> 00:14:02.875
and then the spirit needs to be there.
00:14:02.875 --> 00:14:21.207
Where I've seen, for example, when I visit the indigenous cultures in South Africa, you go to the Sangoma, the healer, and what the And then you wait and the Sangoma in its own way, gets in touch with the creative spirit.
00:14:21.207 --> 00:14:25.000
In this case, it's a healing spirit, a healing genius.
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.625
And sometimes he says, I can’t feel it.
00:14:28.666 --> 00:14:30.291
He's not here.
00:14:30.291 --> 00:14:32.916
Come back later.
00:14:32.916 --> 00:14:37.082
In South Africa that's no problem.
00:14:37.125 --> 00:14:43.041
The indigenous culture knows that this, that how it works.
00:14:43.041 --> 00:14:49.791
If our doctor in in the hospital here would say I don't feel I'm in touch with the creative daimon.
00:14:49.791 --> 00:14:51.000
Come back later.
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.000
You get sued.
00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:00.000
But it's but it is a ritual that that does it.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.291
And ritual is a focused way of being present.
00:15:04.375 --> 00:15:11.000
And you can feel when the ritual is active, when it feels alive.
00:15:11.791 --> 00:15:20.832
To make one more step is like in in church, they do a lot of rituals, some churches more than others, but church does ritual.
00:15:20.832 --> 00:15:26.457
Some people sit in the in the church and they feel the aliveness of the ritual.
00:15:26.916 --> 00:15:29.625
They feel the aliveness of the mass.
00:15:29.625 --> 00:15:31.957
Other people sit there and they feel nothing.
00:15:33.457 --> 00:15:37.000
And so there are not engaged in the ritual.
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:38.332
The ritual is not alive.
00:15:38.332 --> 00:15:43.375
Or the person performing it is not bringing aliveness to it.
00:15:43.375 --> 00:15:51.707
Like a bad coach, by which the congregation gets lifted up into a different state of consciousness.
00:15:51.750 --> 00:16:08.250
So focus, attention, aliveness, and then it doesn't matter much what you do, but that you do something that that helps one transition into a relationship or an embodiment of the creative talent.
00:16:09.166 --> 00:16:09.541
Yeah.
00:16:09.541 --> 00:16:13.916
And as I hear you talk, it sounds like becoming that vessel.
00:16:13.916 --> 00:16:19.125
You need to you need to also have your emotion.
00:16:19.125 --> 00:16:22.000
You need to regulate your emotions.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:32.082
And I know, John, that you work a lot with emotional regulation and the nervous system because you need a certain calmness to be receptive.
00:16:34.291 --> 00:16:35.041
Yeah.
00:16:35.041 --> 00:16:41.000
And I think going off of this conversation like one place of ritual.
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:41.207
Right.
00:16:41.207 --> 00:16:47.500
There's an inviting in and I think superstition sometimes or some things could be about warding off.
00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:59.332
And I think that that perspective is often something I work with people where it's like they're doing something to try to get rid of tension, and sometimes you need to have some way of expelling tension.
00:16:59.332 --> 00:17:00.500
Right. I'm nervous before the game.
00:17:00.500 --> 00:17:01.916
Okay, shake it off.
00:17:01.916 --> 00:17:03.541
Take some deep breaths.
00:17:03.541 --> 00:17:07.583
But it's a different thing when you're inviting in something else to help you out.
00:17:07.583 --> 00:17:09.333
That's like a different perspective.
00:17:09.333 --> 00:17:13.583
That's really an important shift, I think.
00:17:13.583 --> 00:17:21.250
And with emotional regulation, like you said, sometimes the spirit doesn't visit you and you still have to go out and play the game.
00:17:21.250 --> 00:17:23.333
You know, sometimes it's not and you have to.
00:17:23.333 --> 00:17:24.500
People make a big deal.
00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:25.915
Oh, I'm not in the right space. I'm not.
00:17:25.915 --> 00:17:27.665
I'm struggling. I'm tight. Whatever.
00:17:27.665 --> 00:17:29.583
You know, it's like, okay, I'm not.
00:17:29.583 --> 00:17:33.083
But I still, you know, I still know these skills well enough.
00:17:33.083 --> 00:17:34.040
I still can do it.
00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:39.540
Often when people do this, it's it's not as enjoyable the game.
00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:43.458
They could still be effective, but it's more effortful.
00:17:43.458 --> 00:17:44.915
It's less enjoyable.
00:17:44.915 --> 00:17:47.833
It's what you could call kind of like clutch performance.
00:17:47.833 --> 00:17:53.500
We're using a lot of conscious control to try to make it happen, and you can still do pretty good in that.
00:17:53.500 --> 00:18:02.040
And like, and this is people's lives, you're going to have moments where you have to do this, where the spirit isn't going to be kind of flowing through you in the same way.
00:18:03.125 --> 00:18:15.375
So those are just things I wanted to add to it that I think really speak to to managing ourselves with the spirit, coming and going and being kind of okay with that.
00:18:15.790 --> 00:18:16.290
Yeah.
00:18:16.290 --> 00:18:19.625
And what I, what I see there as well is willpower.
00:18:19.625 --> 00:18:28.500
You know, in some players in the World Cup as well, I totally understand you know, the game is those 90 minutes you're there and it needs to happen.
00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:32.165
And of course you hope that the spirits are with you.
00:18:32.165 --> 00:18:34.458
But you're in the field.
00:18:34.458 --> 00:18:50.625
But you can see that some players are really in there with the willpower, almost, almost with that attitude preventing the creative, the creativity to to be there as well.
00:18:51.583 --> 00:18:51.833
Yeah.
00:18:51.833 --> 00:19:01.333
And then some players are live too much in the, in the idea that this, this this vessel is just an I, I do these things.
00:19:01.333 --> 00:19:02.833
I can do this.
00:19:02.833 --> 00:19:05.833
I am capable of these things.
00:19:06.415 --> 00:19:09.790
Then then it becomes all up on, on me.
00:19:09.790 --> 00:19:15.583
And what if you loosen that up and invite the unknown in?
00:19:15.583 --> 00:19:20.208
And then it's not just, I need to do this.
00:19:20.208 --> 00:19:27.208
And if you live in too much of an I this vessel is a singular I vessel.
00:19:27.665 --> 00:19:29.040
Then you get.
00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:32.040
That's one way why people get that way.
00:19:32.165 --> 00:19:35.665
And of course, the willpower is there.
00:19:35.665 --> 00:19:39.665
When the spirit doesn't show up, you still have to to go.
00:19:39.665 --> 00:19:46.290
And you have a set of skills that works, but it's that, that could help people.
00:19:46.625 --> 00:20:05.083
Also, the people that listen to this and when they want to write and invite and tend to the muse or if they want to cook, if you have a cooking spirit, you will know if it's there or not.
00:20:05.083 --> 00:20:09.250
And you can you can apply this to your to your own life.
00:20:10.208 --> 00:20:13.458
Getting being in that right vessel.
00:20:13.625 --> 00:20:20.415
What I hear is letting go of your your fears or letting go of that tension.
00:20:20.415 --> 00:20:23.208
Letting go of the idea of I need to do it.
00:20:23.208 --> 00:20:30.875
It's really co-creation between you as the ego, Latin for I, and something larger or something different.
00:20:30.875 --> 00:20:31.875
The unconscious.
00:20:31.875 --> 00:20:38.833
We would say in Jungian psychology that it's really a co-creation.
00:20:38.833 --> 00:20:46.665
And I think where it links to our previous episode is letting go of your identity as well.
00:20:46.665 --> 00:20:55.165
And becoming a more fluid identity really invites invite creativity.
00:20:55.165 --> 00:21:17.125
You know, I saw this interview with Mbappé that I thought was really interesting, that he used to play on the left side of this field, and he was moved to the right side of the field these days, or the latest games he was playing in the middle and he says, I'm really I'm really open to wherever they place me.
00:21:17.125 --> 00:21:31.415
He really has that fluidity in skills, but also in in the container or so I'm not sure what it is, but I thought that's quite remarkable to be so open.
00:21:31.415 --> 00:21:32.708
Yeah.
00:21:32.708 --> 00:21:34.708
I mean mental flexibility.
00:21:34.708 --> 00:21:35.000
Right.
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:41.915
That's I guess a byproduct maybe of the spirit being there of and it ties into creativity.
00:21:41.915 --> 00:21:45.375
When we're creative, we can have a lot of mental flexibility.
00:21:47.125 --> 00:21:53.708
I really like this deep this relationship idea and deep positioning the ego in some ways. Right.
00:21:53.708 --> 00:22:00.458
Because that's a place where a lot of athletes, right, or young people learning to be humans.
00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:03.208
And that's a place that a lot of athletes get stuck.
00:22:03.208 --> 00:22:03.540
Right.
00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:05.790
You have kind of the spirit comes in.
00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:10.165
You can have this huge rush of emotions and energy.
00:22:10.790 --> 00:22:18.708
And when you kind of think that I did that, usually after the game, you think of all those rituals before the game to invite in the spirit.
00:22:18.708 --> 00:22:26.625
But there's not many rituals after the game to like, let it go and come back to being a person again, to come back after that kind of huge high.
00:22:26.625 --> 00:22:32.000
And so I really like that idea of like welcoming it in and welcoming it out.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:40.875
And I find that for athletes, if they can kind of think a little bit more about their sport, sport as a practice.
00:22:41.415 --> 00:22:41.665
Right.
00:22:41.665 --> 00:22:44.583
It's kind of a practice in doing these kind of things.
00:22:44.583 --> 00:22:55.625
You're letting the spirit in, you're letting it out and you're keeping it, keeping kind of a stable ego that that's really been a beneficial shift for them.
00:22:55.958 --> 00:22:58.000
It's not all about external success.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.333
You don't know what's going to happen, what's happening.
00:23:00.333 --> 00:23:12.750
But it's a continual practice, like maybe probably as a show, showing up, knowing his best routines to kind of welcome it and then let it go and be kind of a normal person in some ways. After.
00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:13.083
Yeah.
00:23:13.083 --> 00:23:31.500
Yeah, that is beautiful to have a thank you gratitude practice after you have visited of being visited with by the creative spirit and and that keeps you keeps you sane and human too.
00:23:32.333 --> 00:23:33.165
Yeah.
00:23:33.165 --> 00:23:37.290
What I was thinking back on my playing career and creativity.
00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:39.083
I thought of a moment.
00:23:39.083 --> 00:23:48.833
And for me, so often with creativity on the field and as you're watching the World Cup, I wonder if you could think about this, but there's usually a moment where there's some tension, some risk.
00:23:48.833 --> 00:23:55.750
So I was thinking, there's a time at Ajax when I was playing left back, we were pushed up in the other teams half.
00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:58.750
So there's a lot of empty space behind me, just the goalie.
00:23:58.750 --> 00:24:05.208
Our right back decides to do a big switch to me, and he hits it way over my head and towards the sideline.
00:24:05.208 --> 00:24:12.875
And part of me thinks like, okay, I could just kind of flick it out for a thrilling like, that's kind of maybe a little bit of an automatic, simple response.
00:24:12.875 --> 00:24:13.790
But I don't know.
00:24:13.790 --> 00:24:17.750
I got excited about like, oh, this is a moment I could try something.
00:24:17.750 --> 00:24:22.500
So I remember, like turning in the balls, flying over my head and headed towards the sideline.
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:29.040
Our benches are there, the opposing coach and the opposition forwards pressing up on me right there.
00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:30.040
So comes over.
00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:31.833
I feel this tension to my body.
00:24:31.833 --> 00:24:34.165
I'm able to slowly like bring the ball down.
00:24:34.165 --> 00:24:35.083
I don't know what I'm doing.
00:24:35.083 --> 00:24:37.500
I don't have a plan at this point, right?
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:39.625
But I'm like, I'm just going to try something here.
00:24:39.625 --> 00:24:53.083
I'm able to control it just enough so it bounces up slightly, and then I'm able to do a Cruyff turn as I get the pressure from the forward, and I find this space and I get this huge adrenaline rush afterwards of like, there's so much tension there.
00:24:53.083 --> 00:24:56.833
I didn't know what was going to happen and that, well, it worked out.
00:24:56.833 --> 00:25:03.415
I was able to move the ball forward and make a pass and and the stadium was like, oh, I had one of those moments.
00:25:03.415 --> 00:25:10.458
So I think back on like how pressure and maybe a little bit of inhibition.
00:25:10.458 --> 00:25:10.750
Right.
00:25:10.750 --> 00:25:27.708
Stopping stopping an easy response like inviting in kind of like that moment of uncertainty and how that has something to do with creativity at the high levels where it's like, okay, I'm okay being in a space where I'm not sure what's going to happen and there's a little danger or risk.
00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:35.333
I like there what you're saying that it asks for experimentation.
00:25:35.333 --> 00:25:43.750
If you want to be creative experimentation, seeing a moment of opportunity and following on the impulse.
00:25:43.750 --> 00:25:45.540
You don't know if you're going to succeed.
00:25:45.540 --> 00:25:47.833
But but somehow you allowed it.
00:25:47.833 --> 00:25:51.708
You saw the moment, felt the impulse, and you went.
00:25:51.708 --> 00:25:52.665
You went with it.
00:25:52.665 --> 00:26:06.415
And I think that experimentation is really important because it's more about the attitude that you have that you're willing to try or be curious about, about what if that something new can actually emerge.
00:26:06.415 --> 00:26:08.083
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:08.083 --> 00:26:11.290
The unknown is an essential ingredient.
00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:14.375
Otherwise you get a fixed routine.
00:26:14.375 --> 00:26:16.915
And that is not a livening.
00:26:16.915 --> 00:26:18.665
That is a ceremony.
00:26:18.665 --> 00:26:24.708
And if it's the in the ritual, there's the unknown is part of it.
00:26:24.708 --> 00:26:27.583
And then you'll you'll see you you don't know.
00:26:28.750 --> 00:26:33.290
It reminds me of a while ago I saw a documentary of Picasso.
00:26:33.290 --> 00:26:37.415
And then they have a glass wall and then the camera behind it.
00:26:37.415 --> 00:26:47.375
And Picasso is making drawings, and he just stands there and make something and look at it and think, whoa, sensational.
00:26:47.375 --> 00:26:53.250
And then because it looks at it and shakes his head and cleans it and does it again, make something else.
00:26:53.250 --> 00:27:03.165
And again, a beautiful it cleans it again and, and then he makes something and he looks at it. Yeah. That's it.
00:27:03.165 --> 00:27:08.375
And so he, he, he allows the creative spirit to flow through him.
00:27:08.375 --> 00:27:13.290
And then on a certain moment he goes like, there we go.
00:27:13.290 --> 00:27:20.500
And so you need to have that, you need to allow it to, to go with the risk.
00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:27.625
That cannot just mean if you're embodied by the creative spirit that things work out.
00:27:28.915 --> 00:27:34.125
But if you're not embodied by the creative spirits, definitely not going to work out.
00:27:34.833 --> 00:27:35.665
Yeah, there's.
00:27:35.665 --> 00:27:37.540
There's like a working component.
00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:40.583
There's also for people in general, like creativity.
00:27:40.583 --> 00:27:42.708
I think it's just a good healthy thing.
00:27:42.708 --> 00:27:44.790
Like it helps our mental health.
00:27:44.790 --> 00:27:51.040
It taps into different parts of our brain, different parts of our world, like just different parts of our being.
00:27:51.040 --> 00:27:54.333
That's just useful and useful, but good.
00:27:54.375 --> 00:27:55.250
Good in ways.
00:27:55.250 --> 00:28:05.833
And it's something often we can get bogged down and like to do's and practical and stuff like that, but those moments can really be enlivening.
00:28:05.833 --> 00:28:06.375
Yeah.
00:28:06.375 --> 00:28:32.458
Every grooving defines creativity as an attitude towards life, or it's a way of relating to life, and that really takes it away from just that one creative moment, but that there is something in your attitude towards life, in the way that you respond, that has a level of fluidity and experimentation and curiosity in it.
00:28:34.250 --> 00:28:45.958
Like what I also saw in that interview with Mbappé was that the French coach asked him, after your career what do you want to do with with football?
00:28:45.958 --> 00:28:48.250
Will you become a coach or...?
00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:50.375
And he said with it just for a little bit.
00:28:50.375 --> 00:28:57.333
And he said, you know, I'm giving myself the freedom to decide in the moment if I want to become a businessman, I'll do that.
00:28:57.333 --> 00:29:00.165
If I want to become a trainer, I'll do that.
00:29:00.165 --> 00:29:03.708
But if I want to do nothing for a bit, I'll do that.
00:29:03.708 --> 00:29:13.790
And I thought, that is that is such a good illustration of living with the impulse, deciding in the moment rather than planning what you'll do.
00:29:13.833 --> 00:29:16.290
Right now, the impulse is to play soccer.
00:29:16.290 --> 00:29:23.833
So he'll continue doing that, and by then he'll he'll sit with it and see what the impulse is, and he will follow up on it.
00:29:23.833 --> 00:29:27.250
Which which is really a creative lifestyle.
00:29:27.290 --> 00:29:29.708
Yeah. Super creative.
00:29:29.708 --> 00:29:34.290
And and so it's so hard, so hard to do.
00:29:34.915 --> 00:29:35.333
Right.
00:29:35.333 --> 00:29:39.750
Like to stay with it and feel open and trusting.
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:40.665
Right.
00:29:40.665 --> 00:29:43.958
I think we're talking about kind of the conditions.
00:29:43.958 --> 00:29:44.415
Right.
00:29:44.415 --> 00:30:01.583
Worry, think about worry, planning different things that come up, whether it's from our kind of ego or from our self, different anxieties that can come up that really kind of take us away from maybe a little bit more of an openness, right, that are going to close us off ways.
00:30:01.583 --> 00:30:04.000
We're going to avoid certain things.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:04.708
Yeah.
00:30:04.708 --> 00:30:12.750
Yeah, you have to be present in the moment because that is where where the creative spirit flows through and into the world.
00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:30.083
And if you already prepare, you can sometimes see it in a soccer player when they run towards the, the goalie of the opponent with the ball and that they start, they start thinking, shall I go left or right?
00:30:30.083 --> 00:30:40.000
And you see that they become a little bit more clunky in their, in their movements and, and most of the time it doesn't work out.
00:30:40.125 --> 00:30:57.708
And if they and what the what with these great talents comes natural because they are so good they they're trusting it comes is that they just run like Mbappé and then they can make the decision, Something in them makes the decision in the moment.
00:30:57.708 --> 00:31:03.165
And that has the highest chance to, to be interesting and successful.
00:31:03.790 --> 00:31:08.790
So yeah, you have to be you have to approach life as a every day.
00:31:08.790 --> 00:31:11.125
Every moment is as a fresh.
00:31:13.165 --> 00:31:15.000
Phenomenon.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:15.290
Yeah.
00:31:15.290 --> 00:31:19.083
And I pay attention to the moments where we want to close down. Right.
00:31:19.083 --> 00:31:28.290
Like those moments when you can feel because this is I think the body is a big part in creativity.
00:31:28.290 --> 00:31:32.000
There's just, I think, more of a kind of unconscious in the mind.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.750
So your body and your intuition is kind of acting.
00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:42.915
So paying attention to the body and when it might tighten right around things and just seeing if you can loosen and open up a little bit more. Right.
00:31:42.915 --> 00:31:45.415
Because sometimes we're not even sure.
00:31:45.415 --> 00:31:48.250
Right, what we're kind of tightening up against.
00:31:48.250 --> 00:31:56.000
But if there's a little bit of openness, something else can kind of enter our consciousness and gives us some freedom to then kind of work with that.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:02.708
Yeah. Well. And very in psychology, those are those are trauma responses, survival mechanisms.
00:32:02.790 --> 00:32:15.500
So you see quite a bunch of soccer players not not getting to the peak of their ability because they haven't dealt with some trauma in their life.
00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:21.458
And, and the and the survival responses that come with it.
00:32:21.458 --> 00:32:25.625
And they, they block a genuine creativity.
00:32:27.375 --> 00:32:33.208
But even without trauma, I can see that I killed my own creativity several times in my life.
00:32:33.208 --> 00:32:43.250
You know, like if I have a good idea that I feel like maybe for a Jung Platform creating a course and then thinking, but who is interested in it?
00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:57.750
So even there, I'm already thinking about the outcome or about an audience, rather than following my own impulse, giving myself the freedom to see what wants to express through me.
00:32:57.750 --> 00:32:59.915
I'm thinking like, oh, will it be useful?
00:32:59.915 --> 00:33:10.583
So I'm more I'm more interested in the outcome than in the process, which is, of course, a really good way to kill, to kill the fun and to to kill the project.
00:33:10.583 --> 00:33:10.958
Yeah.
00:33:10.958 --> 00:33:16.915
There's such a my first introduction to sports psychology came to this book The Inner Game of Tennis. It's my The Inner Game of Tennis.
00:33:16.915 --> 00:33:19.833
So I first like real like I love this.
00:33:19.833 --> 00:33:24.375
And it was talking about this Gallwey and it was self one and self two.
00:33:24.375 --> 00:33:26.040
What you're illustrating was a self two.
00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:30.375
Like something comes kind of some impulse comes from the body.
00:33:30.540 --> 00:33:31.750
It feels natural.
00:33:31.750 --> 00:33:35.708
And then there's the judger that comes in the evaluator, right.
00:33:35.708 --> 00:33:36.750
And shuts it down.
00:33:36.750 --> 00:33:45.708
And a lot of Gallwey's work was about kind of noticing those two different things and trying to be when you're performing, trying to be in self 2.
00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:53.500
Yeah, I think it's a little more complicated than that when we're working with people, because that self one is valuable in certain ways.
00:33:53.500 --> 00:34:02.708
We have to learn to work with it, but it can definitely be a shutdown when you start judging and analyzing things to shut down to our creative spirit.
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:04.875
Yeah.
00:34:04.875 --> 00:34:17.666
You know, in the coaching world, sometimes metaphors are used like the if you want to know if a seed is growing, you don't look in the ground all the time. Is it already happening?
00:34:17.666 --> 00:34:24.125
You know, there is something of creativity and a growth process that seems to have its own timeline.
00:34:24.125 --> 00:34:28.833
So do you trust the timeline of, of the unknown?
00:34:28.833 --> 00:34:34.458
And and it has more to do with serving rather than, I don't know, pulling, pulling grass.
00:34:34.458 --> 00:34:36.583
It doesn't grow faster if you pull it.
00:34:36.583 --> 00:34:41.583
You know, there's and there's something with talent and creativity as well.
00:34:41.666 --> 00:35:05.000
And and and how do you create your, your if your body is the garden, how do you create a, a garden or a or an embodied space that allows for these creative ways to to come and and flourish to it?
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:25.708
It brings the notion of talent also slightly different that effect that that the creative spirit or the daimon is already somewhat fully formed and you need to your body need to and your skill set need to catch up so that it can can come through you.
00:35:25.708 --> 00:35:31.083
So it's not even that, that the that the talent is the is a little seat that needs to grow.
00:35:31.083 --> 00:35:37.625
It's you that needs to get in a place by which the spirit can, can go through you.
00:35:37.625 --> 00:35:52.666
Because we all know those people that are three years old and make a sensational drawings or at five play piano, that that cannot be explained by some ego activity.
00:35:52.666 --> 00:35:58.333
That's there's the talent already fully there flowing through.
00:35:58.333 --> 00:36:00.625
So so acting on that impulse.
00:36:00.666 --> 00:36:03.958
What a child of course, spontaneously does it.
00:36:03.958 --> 00:36:05.875
It acts on impulses.
00:36:05.875 --> 00:36:12.166
And somewhere through our life we learn to adapt and maybe ignore some of the impulses.
00:36:12.166 --> 00:36:19.708
But if we want to foster our own creativity, probably it's good to to be aware of the impulses.
00:36:19.708 --> 00:36:24.500
And then still we would need to distinguish between what is the impulse wanting of me?
00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:34.833
Is it really a genuine expression, or is it maybe a habitual response or a psychological complex got triggered and it's really a fear response.
00:36:34.833 --> 00:36:37.833
So what is the impulse really?
00:36:38.708 --> 00:36:41.708
That's where psychological work comes in.
00:36:42.583 --> 00:36:42.791
Yeah.
00:36:42.791 --> 00:36:48.583
And it's it's so valuable to have someone else in there with you to help you distinguish those things.
00:36:48.583 --> 00:36:49.083
Right.
00:36:49.083 --> 00:36:54.958
Like what's a natural impulse and what's a habitual kind of thing arising from the background.
00:36:54.958 --> 00:37:08.625
So what would be our kind of, I guess, takeaways, thinking about creativity and, you know, watching soccer at the World Cup and people learning from it and using things, using these ideas for their own lives.
00:37:08.625 --> 00:37:11.791
What do you guys think would be some kind of top takeaways?
00:37:11.791 --> 00:37:18.750
I think as an as an observer, go with where you're you're a natural attention go.
00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:32.416
So maybe there's one particular soccer player that jumps out for whatever reason, but follow even that impulse in looking looking at the person that somehow interests you are there are parts of the game you know.
00:37:32.416 --> 00:37:36.708
The moment that really fascinates me is the penalty moment.
00:37:36.708 --> 00:37:43.791
Like somehow that I sometimes watch it back and back because there's something fascinating there.
00:37:43.791 --> 00:37:45.375
So that's also an impulse.
00:37:45.375 --> 00:37:50.625
That's also a spontaneous thing that apparently something is happening there.
00:37:50.625 --> 00:37:57.083
That and I give in to it like a repeat, like look again, like what's happening.
00:37:57.125 --> 00:37:57.458
Yeah.
00:37:57.458 --> 00:38:01.666
So that's maybe for the, for the, for the observer.
00:38:02.250 --> 00:38:02.916
That's great.
00:38:02.916 --> 00:38:04.666
I love that. How about you Machiel?
00:38:06.166 --> 00:38:28.125
I would say practice rituals, entrance rituals, exit rituals to to tent, nurture, nourish the spirit that is already there and then see what happens.
00:38:28.125 --> 00:38:35.791
Build a relationship, play and let this.
00:38:35.791 --> 00:38:38.166
That's a big practice.
00:38:38.166 --> 00:38:40.166
How about you, John?
00:38:40.166 --> 00:38:43.166
Anything that comes to mind.
00:38:43.250 --> 00:38:44.416
Yeah.
00:38:44.416 --> 00:38:52.125
This idea what's what I'm taking, taking away from this conversation, this idea of relationship with and kind of positioning with forces.
00:38:52.125 --> 00:38:52.416
Right.
00:38:52.416 --> 00:39:02.916
And there is an element of openness and inviting things in and being okay when, when, when things don't move the way you want.
00:39:03.583 --> 00:39:08.166
So that's kind of a psychological insight that I'm taking away from this.
