Craig Coyle: Debra Sunderland, welcome to the Frontline Leadership Podcast.
Debra: Thank you so much, Craig Coyle. I'm so glad to be here.
Craig Coyle: Yeah. it's the roles are a little flipped, right? After coming on your show with with your co-host Brandon and now bringing you ⁓ on to kinda help ⁓ bring expertise to I think ⁓ a ⁓ of that often get overlooked, right? Like there's so many resources out there dedicated to Wow, well, as you can see, this topic is something that is near and dear to Debra's heart. She's incredibly passionate about it. And she just brings a level of intention and clarity to helping people walk through some of the inner challenges that help us take the next step forward, only in our leadership, but in our lives. If there's one thing that I took away from the conversation, it's understanding that everything we do executive leaders, but we often don't think about giving those executive leaders the tools to develop all the leaders that work for them, or to give some of those resources to the new leaders themselves, right? The leaders entering into leadership and navigating the complexities of being a frontline leader or a mid-level manager. And of the things that I'm passionate about, and this is why I'm bringing you on, is I is I talk about trying to comes down to either fear faith. And the reason this conversation often up in leadership is because it's ⁓ leadership exposes the innerwiring how we operate and in our ability to create the results we're being asked to create as leaders. ⁓ So as go forward from this episode, whether ⁓ you're simplify all the resources out there. And I simplify, I used my background as an aviator, how I was developed as an aviator to do that. But one of the first things aviators do when they go and start flight school is they sit in a classroom and they learn about things like aerodynamics. And they learn about things like the weather. And I think what you are an expert in is arguably one of the most important things to address
Debra: Mm.
Craig Coyle: developing yourself as a leader, or you're looking to develop the leaders on your team, look for those indicators and take those opportunities to help people take that next step forward on the inside so they can take a bigger step forward with everything they're doing on the outside. Until the next, I'm Craig Coyle, and this is The Frontline Leadership Podcast. Let's Lead. Every system, every framework, every tool we talk about on the show eventually runs into the same wall: the person using it. You can give a frontline supervisor the best structure in the world, clear expectations, accountability systems, development plans, and they will still find a way to undermine it. Not because they're incompetent, not because they don't care, but because of what's happening on the inside that nobody ever addressed. My guest today built herself an incredible
Debra: Yeah. Mm.
Craig Coyle: when someone first into leadership. And that's the work. It's how we lead ourselves. So as we get into this conversation, Debra, why don't why don't you just share with everybody why you're passionate about this work?
Debra: Mm-hmm.
Craig Coyle: career climbing the corporate ladder into the executive suite. But her path to this work didn't start in a boardroom. In 2013, she was a competitive cyclist, ranked second in the United States. She was three laps from the podium and she was slammed into a curb at full speed. Her skull cracked, her brain was severely injured, her lung was punctured. The doctors told her friends she wasn't gonna make it. She spent a month in the hospital, seven months learning to walk, talk, and cut her own food again.
Debra: Hm, thank you. That's a big question. realized for myself that I lived most of my life in a state of false identity. And it was about winning, achieving, get to the next goal, and there was not much rest. I realized I didn't really know myself. I knew myself to be an overachiever and a winner, but I'm more than that. And I realized ⁓ after almost dying winning ⁓ a competitive cyclist, that life is more than winning.
Craig Coyle: And somewhere in the forced stillness of a medically induced coma, she came to face the question that changed everything. Not just about her life, but about what she was here to do.
Debra: And it's also more than helping other people win. I love helping other people win. we have been taught that in our our country that what we're conditioned to in our mind. And so living that life ⁓ is not peaceful. It ⁓ ⁓ disconnected from who we are and that creates a lot of emotional disregulation, it creates a lot of frustration, it creates a lack of peace and joy inside of oneself. And I want leaders who have been taught like I have to know that their their their life matters, that are more than the achiever, they are more than outcomes and to not their worth against what they achieve.
Craig Coyle: That's so powerful. You know, one of things that we've talked about, I talk about this all the time, is it's often the very things that helped make us successful as an individual that often hold us back in leadership. And as I hear you talking about how this strive to be successful often holds back our life as a whole, it's also those things that are are running our internal wiring that She has spent over 30 years working with CEOs and executive teams on the invisible patterns and beliefs that quietly shape every decision a leader makes, often without them ever knowing it. She's the founder of Sunderland Coaching, the creator of the Invisible Wins framework, and one of the most compelling voices I've encountered on the internal work of leadership. Look, we've talked at length we project on others when we enter into leadership that then actually holds back our ability to create the results that we're quite honestly being paid to create as leaders. So I mean, I think that's so powerful. But ⁓ you know, one of things you and I we've talked about a lot, and you're really well known in the leadership space for is ⁓ this idea that you've owned these invisible patterns that continue to show up. ⁓ about the importance of mindset, EQ, self-leadership, and building a strong foundation as a leader. So it's only fitting to bring in an expert to help us take that conversation another layer deeper. So with all that said, here's my conversation with Debra Sunderland. What are they and like where do they come from?
Debra: Yeah, good good question. So all have a brain, obviously, and there's a small part of our brain, the amygdala, that is constantly surveying you, ⁓ ⁓ situation, the world, ⁓ it's surveying for safety. And it's for safety, ⁓ it's putting our mind, that part of our mind is putting us in a box. And we don't realize we're in this box. And we're like little rats, like around in this, right? And we can't get out. And we're like trying to like, you know, we want this, but we can't get it. And so it's first that the thinking of questioning our thoughts, because we taught to really question our beliefs and our thoughts. We I are we underutilize our our thoughts, our emotional intelligence, and our body intelligence, we've only been trained to use the least, most of the least effective is our brain, is our thinking. And so our creates stories all the time that are going to limit us in who we want to become, what we want to do, how want to get there. Most people do not know how to change and get the outcome. They think it's they're going to do more and more and more and get finally get the outcome they have. But it's really we need to shift our thinking because our thinking brings our emotional state, and our emotional state drives our behaviors, and thinking also develops a belief system that we're unaware of. Our mind ⁓ runs 65 to 70,000 thoughts a day are going to be defensive thoughts. And it's actually wanting us to stay where we are. It doesn't want us to grow. And so when we're or when we're getting the same outcome. It's a real wonder and a beautiful thing because it'd be like, ⁓ it's just my mind doing its thing, and I'm more than that. So learning how to get out of the pattern, our mind likes patterns. It doesn't like to go to a different pattern because it's like scared. And it wants to have its role in our life, which is to keep us safe, right? And so we want to thank it for doing that. ⁓ But if we continue to follow that path, we will ⁓
Craig Coyle: Yeah. That's it.
Debra: Never live a life of peace and joy in the outcomes we have with ease and flow. So it's learning the pattern that we all have. We have different patterns depending on our makeup, but seeing the pattern and realizing I'm not my pattern. I'm not my thoughts. I'm not my feelings. I'm not my behavior. I'm just experiencing this. And if I can be aware of it, then can dictate my outcomes because I'm going to change what's internally.
Craig Coyle: That's so powerful so what when you think about it from a from an organizational context right, I mean you work a lot with the leaders at the top of the if if you were to try to help coach a senior leader how to ⁓ and coach ⁓ subordinate leaders to some of things like How would you encourage that senior leader to go about doing that? Or even if it was the the kind of junior new leader themselves, like what are some of the things that you might say or encourage or even just the questions you might ask?
Debra: Yeah, so for instance, just to say that one of the senior leaders has a a new teammate and they're wanting to raise them up and grow as a leader. Growth is scary. Again, because the mind doesn't want to change. So I would just be as a leader of someone, I would ask them, How are you doing? How are you feeling? What's coming up for you? What are your thoughts? When you believe that thought, how do you feel? What is it that you most want to create? What do you also fear? So fear and want are on the same coin, just different sides of it. So I would ask them to ask them, what would you like to create? What would how would you like to grow? What do you fear about growing? What's your concerns about growth? How can I support you in your growth? Having deep conversations and also the leader themselves doing their own work. I always say, if we are leading people we thought we taught them to do something, or they agree they were going to do something, but it's not the outcome that you were seeking from that person. I always come back to myself. I always say, come back to yourself as a leader and be like, hmm, I want to get curious. How can I be responsible for an outcome that I thought was going to happen that didn't? Because again, even as leaders, we have patterns, and for me, I know myself, I can talk quickly. I think that someone's clear on what I'm asking, but I didn't check in because I'm on to the next thing. That's my default system. And so I'm going to go back and say, you know, I thought we agreed to this and we didn't get this outcome, no blame or shame. I want to discuss with you maybe where I wasn't clear or how can I support you in this where right? So it's a conversation that is open and curious versus blaming and shaming.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: So again, whenever we get an outcome we have and don't want, it's just feedback that our unconscious mind, the fearful part of our mind, is running us in our decision making. And the last thing I would really say, the most important thing is when we lead, we want to notice how we're leading ourselves. Am I leading with an attachment that something has to happen or this person needs to show up this way? And it's not going to be apparent. So just checking to see if you're attached to an outcome and there's some fear there, there's some anxiety or there's some frustration. If there's frustration or fear driving this it's unconscious state. And it's the own leader's responsibility to look at, huh? What is this decision or this path that I'm making? What's my belief that's causing me to have frustration or fear? And when I'm other people, ⁓ it could even be like it's a new person. And if the leader is a little anxious or frustrated with that person, it's never about the other person. It's stuff that we haven't dealt with in the past. And that person just doing their thing. So first of all, I'd say if you're a leader leading people, look at how is this person just showing up being them? It has nothing to do with something you haven't dealt with. And actually, how are they a gift for you to see something that you haven't healed? But then also being vulnerable and saying, you know.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: I'm feeling anxious right now because whatever that the story we make up in our head is that you should be further along than you are. And I'm wondering what's going on for you and how I can be of support. And I thought we were gonna be at this outcome by now and we're not, but I just wanna get curious with you because we all have a different thought and a way of doing things, and I just wanna know you.
Craig Coyle: Debra, you covered so much and I I hope the listeners picked up on so many different that that you you spoke to there. And one of the things that I I couldn't stop thinking about when you were you were kind of highlighting some of these beliefs and the importance to have these deeper conversations is you know, I talk all the time, especially on the show, about systems and processes and routine and consistency and how
Debra: Yeah.
Craig Coyle: so often it's the science of leadership that makes room for the art of leadership to have its stage. And I'm just thinking this whole time was like, wow, all these things Debra's talking about are the case for why as a leader you need to have meetings with your team. You need to have one-on-ones. You need to be able to delegate so that you have capacity so you can be present and you can have that conversation in the moment when the moment demands it, even if it's not a part of your routine. And then just, you know, all the things about EQ and self-management and self-awareness and leveraging the resources that some people way smarter than me have created, right? To help us put understanding into who we are and how we relate with others and the emotions that we're feeling and what they mean and the mindsets that are, you know, hardwired into us for no fault of our own, but based off maybe our life experiences or how we were raised or the society we grew up in or the professional world we grew up in and how that drives just how we show up in each and every moment. ⁓ You know, one of the things we've talked a lot about, and you hinted at it there a couple times, is this idea of fear. Like fear is something that controlled my life, but we've talked about this for a very long time. It was fear of not being loved, fear of not being accepted, and it it put me into this operating if will, of just ⁓ seeking excellence ⁓ and pursuing ⁓ Not really the sake of of success, but for the sake of
Debra: Yes.
Craig Coyle: needing to be appreciated or needing to be validated and and all these other things. you think about that through the lens of, you someone who's new to leadership or someone in high pressure environment, someone with, ⁓ you know, you get XYZ out the door by the end of the month. It's easy to say and have a conversation between two people who are who are you know, put a lot of time into growing their EQ and understanding these things. It's easy to have a conversation about fear driving us and and those things. But how does that actually manifest in a normal working environment? And and how do you notice it? And and better yet, honestly, like noticing it's half the battle, but then what do you do with it, you know?
Debra: Я Yeah, I love that. So I just wanna say I love that you asked that because when I work at the C-level many of them do not want to admit that there's fear there. And we all have fear. anxiety, fear of getting the outcome that seeking. And so first of all, I would say, notice, are you willing to say I have fear? And it's okay, because fear is actually wisdom. If we feel that so I always say feel your feelings all the way through. We have not been taught to feel our feelings. So if we want to learn emotional intelligence, mind creates an electrical current when it's having thoughts. I've had an EEG and you can see the you know the the the the scan right of your brain doing something. And that's an energy, and that energy gets pushed into our body when it's having a thought. Emotion is actually energy motion. That's what emotion means.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: So it's just this energy coming through our body as like if you were plugging in an electrical outlet, ⁓ you know, ⁓ a cord into an electrical outlet, ⁓ it wants to just come out that energy. So I tell people, it can be scary that the emotions are coming up because we haven't felt them. A okay, that let give yourself some grace on it. And only last for 90 seconds at the And they come in little waves of fear or terror. Or little waves of anxiety or frustration, I should say, or rage, little waves of sadness or grief, right? That's just that we're human. That's what it does. We are wired so perfectly. The goal is to let the emotion pass through us so that we're at equilibrium to be present. Otherwise, it gets stored as triggers in our adrenals. And that's why we become reactive, reactive, reactive, because the body remembers ⁓
Craig Coyle: Mm-hmm.
Debra: that there wasn't something that was allowed to pass through those emotions. And it's thinking that it's a current situation that's happening, but really it's a past situation. And so really just how can you just let it pass? And it gets really big, let it be as big as it wants. And then once it passes, then you ask yourself, what was my belief? What was I telling myself that created this emotion?
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: And that's where we get the wisdom. So for fear, for instance, if we let the wisdom come, it means caution, slow down, pay attention. That's what what what fear means. So I would say invite your team to practice with you. Invite your people to practice because if we all want to learn as leaders, we need a partner to learn, right? And sometimes we're unaware of certain emotions. We are we push them down. And so certain people are like the unconsciously like, I'm not gonna get angry, but you can tell they're angry because they're red in the face and they're like raising their voice and right. So we need each other to say, Hey, I'm curious, what's going on for you right now? I can sense there's something here. I'll stop in the boardroom and when they're talking and I'll be like, Hey guys, or to the specific person, I can notice something's here. Can you feel it? And they might not because we're not trained in it. And I'll say, I can see sadness come up for you right now. Do you sense that's there? 'Cause you can you can see it in their eyes, you can see it in their face. And they're like, Yeah and I said, Can you just take a pause? So I would encourage people to take a pause and allow emotion to be there instead of being reactive. If we want to create outcomes that we're seeking, we must do this.
Craig Coyle: Right. Mm. so powerful. We were talking last about how so often in the world most adults can really only identify an emotion that's on the extreme end of a spectrum, right? Whether they're feeling anxious or they're feeling angry or on the other side they're feeling happy, right? Or elated maybe or filled with joy. But often there's a string, not time, right? Sometimes there's a situation where it goes from zero to a hundred real quick, right? And that's probably when you're actually in a fight or flight response and you need that fight or flight response, right? But so
Debra: Yes.
Craig Coyle: often in the normal living of our lives, there's a string of emotions that are leading all the way up to that extreme emotion, and it takes that level of of awareness of each those emotions ⁓ that that us prevent situations from getting to where they don't need to be, right? Like for me, the easiest way to explain this that that it really helped me transform my leadership is I am a conflict avoider. I hate confrontation. I'm introverted, right? I'm a perfectionist. I just it's not something that ⁓ just my temperament excels at or really enjoys whatsoever. But I know as a leader, the biggest frustrations occur when there's gap in And when there's a gap in expectation as a leader, it's your job to close it. Or else the frustration is gonna continue to compound into resentment and then you know probably a failure at some point, which is gonna turn into anger, right? And all these things. And so what I had to learn how to do is when I started feeling anxious about something, I knew that it would probably turn into frustration, and that if I ever felt frustration
Debra: Yeah. Mm.
Craig Coyle: that if I didn't do something about it, it would probably eventually turn into anger or something way worse that actually had a tangible impact on what was going on in the organization. And so that that awareness of anxiety turned into my greatest tool. Because it told me, ⁓ I've got something I need to go do.
Debra: Yeah. It's it's Yeah, it's it's interesting and love that you noticed that and want everyone to know in the world, ⁓ everyone that's listening is that we are unique and gifted and if we don't allow if we give ourselves space to know ourselves, know our thinking, know our patterns, know our emotions, know how we show up. We won't know ourselves and what are we living for? What are we working for, right? We're more than work. And one day we aren't gonna be working. one day we might have resentment because we didn't really live the life we're supposed to live. So I want everyone to question their thoughts, their beliefs, their decision making. And decision making comes from two places fear and control or trust and love.
Craig Coyle: Hmm.
Debra: And most organizations that I've been in are based in fear and control. We can never ⁓ a thriving, high performing team out of fear and control. ⁓ impossible. And so the work is always at the top leader and whatever they do and allow what permeates the rest of the organization. ⁓ What they their people to also goes across the organization. So I really say this from most organizations that I've been in are based in fear and control. And We can never ⁓ a thriving, high performing team out of fear and control. It's And so the work is always at the top leader and whatever they do and allow is permeates the rest of the organization.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: the highest of leaders across is the more you discover yourself, challenge your people to discover them. How can you support them to and or even notice where they're excited about something, where they really get lit up? Because many people come to work just to get the job done. And that is no way to live of your life. so it is normal for us to make decisions out of fear. Because we haven't learned how to get out of it. So don't blame yourself, but just notice that you're doing it and notice the outcomes that happen when you're making them from some kind of fear or control state. And how might you gain a new perspective? What is the fear? Right. And so I notice that many leaders want to step in because something's really important to them. And they don't
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: really want to trust someone on their team, not that they don't like that person, ⁓ but in that moment, they're like, well, I can do it faster, or I can do it better, or this is a really important client, or this is a really important call. And so they step in and they can try try to control an outcome, pushing that other person aside. And what it's saying to that person that was supposed to be taking that role in that moment is, you don't trust me. And when we don't have trust in an organization, people not ⁓ to ⁓ forward because they're already getting blocked by the person stepping in their space. And so eventually they're like, ⁓ why fully play in this game? Because I'm not welcome here. And the CEO or the leader is like, Well, they're not high performing. I've asked them to do this. They don't seem to really care. And they don't see how they've created this little drama triangle. then that person is either going to stay not happy or they're going to get be put on a performance plan or they're going to quit or they're going to get fired, right? Something's going to happen. So I just want everyone to know we all want to win. Who wants to go to to work and be like, yeah, I suck today and I want my boss to be upset with me and I don't no one. We most of us want to achieve together, we want to win. But typically that's not what's happening. So we wanna look at what's the culture we're creating from the top down and across, because that we can change. But it takes responsibility, radical responsibility for each of us to know how we think, feel and behave, and what to shift when I get an outcome I don't have. It's our thinking, feeling and behavior. ⁓ Yeah.
Craig Coyle: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's I I love that because one of the things I I'll tell people all the time is I love working in leadership because One, you help people transform organizations and create results that they're struggling to create. That's great, but that's superficial, if you ask me. The best part about working in leadership is it gives you a platform to help make people better people, honestly, and live better lives. And you do that, yeah, directly through the leader you work with, but also do it indirectly by creating a leader that creates an environment that everybody wants to be a part of. That they don't get the Sunday scaries. They're actually excited to wake up and go to work and be a part of something bigger than themselves. And this this plays such a critical role in that because how we show up and how we interact ⁓ with is driven by how we lead ourselves, right? One of the things I always like to ask folks that come on show is one of the biggest challenges in
Debra: Yes. That's right.
Craig Coyle: industry and the corporate world in general the between individual contributor leader. And I and I say that because so often ⁓ the people get promoted into leadership aren't getting promoted because of potential for leadership. They're getting promoted because they were really good at what they were doing. Whether it was a technical skill, could be a machinist, could be a marketer, could be, you know, you see this a lot in sales, right? The best salesperson becomes the sales manager.
Debra: Yeah.
Craig Coyle: Through the lens of this internal work, mindset work, the coaching you do, why do you see that as a difficult bridge for people to cross?
Debra: Yeah. So I think because people ⁓ good at doing and getting things done, task goal oriented, but they're not necessarily relating well to other people because they're not knowing themselves and relating to themselves well. Just like you had said earlier, you anxious, you didn't know how to really love yourself. And I still see I'll ask the very top, do you three questions? Do you believe you're enough? Do you believe you have enough? Just right here, right now. do you know how to love yourself? And there's only one CEO recently who is just on my podcast who has said yes to all those three questions. That means they're driving out of not enoughness, a scarcity. I'm not enough, so there isn't enough. And that not enough gives us a very tight perspective and it blocks people, puts us in defense. That's a defensive mind. And so when we're in defense. We can't hear other people. We are not able to hear other people. And it's kind of like I always say, if you were on a football team you only play defense, how well is that team that football team gonna do? Ain't gonna do so well. And that's why I think we're struggling because we haven't learned to be open and curious and play offensively. We've been trying to control ⁓ trying to make things happen. ⁓ And so I would just say, hey guys, if you a new and rising leader, be vulnerable, be authentic. If you're already high up there, be vulnerable. Say, I'm struggling with this. This is my thought. And when I believe this is how I feel, this is what I would really like. What do you think? If can share that authenticity and vulnerability, it creates a trusting, loving environment versus just robots showing up to get a job done.
Craig Coyle: That's so good. And you know, that's the perfect segue into a closing question. You kind of alluded to it already. But when we start doing this internal work, whether we're the new leader, whether they're the senior leader, or whether we're the individual trying to figure out how to scale this level of awareness and self-management and just openness and vulnerability in a big organization, when these things start falling into place, whether that's for a supervisor leading a team of ten or for a leader leading an organization of of thousands, if you will. When these things start falling into place, what what happens? What changes? Why is it why is it something that when people start getting it right, they kind of become addicted to it?
Debra: Yeah. Well, it feels good. It feels good to be in a place where you can be real because then you're seen and everyone wants to be seen and everyone wants to be heard. And they say 98% of the time, if there's an issue, if someone is just heard, not changing the outcome or the situation, but just that someone is heard, it it breaks down everything. And so when we can practice this work, the barriers come down. And when barriers are down, people feel that they are able to be heard. So they're going to share more, and more ideas are going to come forward than maybe even the CEO. And we want as many ideas as possible because we have limitless decisions to make. But the unconscious mind gives us right, wrong, good, black, black, white. It doesn't give us a full spectrum. So if we can create an organization where people are welcome to share their ideas and heard. Holy cow. Right. And that's exciting. Super exciting.
Craig Coyle: Yeah, it's it's so funny. The you know, the stigma of companies like Chick-fil-A in obviously in the US and Toyota in the industrial space, they kinda they have this almost like distance aura for people that aren't a part of those organizations or senior leaders in other organizations that think like, ⁓ yeah, that's they're just kinda lucky. They they just kinda it's because of their brand. But folks, I mean everybody had to start somewhere, right? And and it's possible, it doesn't matter what you
Debra: That's right.
Craig Coyle: what you create, what you sell, your demographics are, like it it just comes down to how you view people, how you lead yourself, and how you allow everybody within your organization to do the same. So Debra, was an awesome conversation. If people want to learn more about you, connect with you, follow the work you're doing, where can they find you?
Debra: Thank you. So Sunderland Coaching, S-U-N-D-E-R-L-A-N-D coaching.com. ⁓ And actually I have an assessment there. If you all are interested, if you go right to that page, you'll see an assessment. And it is a leadership assessment. It only takes about 10 minutes, but it helps you discover your patterning that you might not be aware of that is keeping you from creating the outcomes you want. ⁓ And ⁓ and ways out of it. So if you're interested, take that. ⁓ and if you're interested in knowing more about conscious leadership, absolutely would love to talk with you.
Craig Coyle: I love it. And as we've talked about, right? Assessment is the first step forward. Just like you're driving down the road to somewhere you've never been before, Google doesn't only ask you where you want to be, ⁓ asks you where you are right now. And that's the perfect step. So thanks. Thanks for this awesome conversation, Debra. I really appreciate it.
Debra: That's right. That's right. Thanks, Craig. You're awesome. Thank you.
Debra: Thank you so much, Craig Coyle. I'm so glad to be here.
Craig Coyle: Yeah. it's the roles are a little flipped, right? After coming on your show with with your co-host Brandon and now bringing you ⁓ on to kinda help ⁓ bring expertise to I think ⁓ a ⁓ of that often get overlooked, right? Like there's so many resources out there dedicated to Wow, well, as you can see, this topic is something that is near and dear to Debra's heart. She's incredibly passionate about it. And she just brings a level of intention and clarity to helping people walk through some of the inner challenges that help us take the next step forward, only in our leadership, but in our lives. If there's one thing that I took away from the conversation, it's understanding that everything we do executive leaders, but we often don't think about giving those executive leaders the tools to develop all the leaders that work for them, or to give some of those resources to the new leaders themselves, right? The leaders entering into leadership and navigating the complexities of being a frontline leader or a mid-level manager. And of the things that I'm passionate about, and this is why I'm bringing you on, is I is I talk about trying to comes down to either fear faith. And the reason this conversation often up in leadership is because it's ⁓ leadership exposes the innerwiring how we operate and in our ability to create the results we're being asked to create as leaders. ⁓ So as go forward from this episode, whether ⁓ you're simplify all the resources out there. And I simplify, I used my background as an aviator, how I was developed as an aviator to do that. But one of the first things aviators do when they go and start flight school is they sit in a classroom and they learn about things like aerodynamics. And they learn about things like the weather. And I think what you are an expert in is arguably one of the most important things to address
Debra: Mm.
Craig Coyle: developing yourself as a leader, or you're looking to develop the leaders on your team, look for those indicators and take those opportunities to help people take that next step forward on the inside so they can take a bigger step forward with everything they're doing on the outside. Until the next, I'm Craig Coyle, and this is The Frontline Leadership Podcast. Let's Lead. Every system, every framework, every tool we talk about on the show eventually runs into the same wall: the person using it. You can give a frontline supervisor the best structure in the world, clear expectations, accountability systems, development plans, and they will still find a way to undermine it. Not because they're incompetent, not because they don't care, but because of what's happening on the inside that nobody ever addressed. My guest today built herself an incredible
Debra: Yeah. Mm.
Craig Coyle: when someone first into leadership. And that's the work. It's how we lead ourselves. So as we get into this conversation, Debra, why don't why don't you just share with everybody why you're passionate about this work?
Debra: Mm-hmm.
Craig Coyle: career climbing the corporate ladder into the executive suite. But her path to this work didn't start in a boardroom. In 2013, she was a competitive cyclist, ranked second in the United States. She was three laps from the podium and she was slammed into a curb at full speed. Her skull cracked, her brain was severely injured, her lung was punctured. The doctors told her friends she wasn't gonna make it. She spent a month in the hospital, seven months learning to walk, talk, and cut her own food again.
Debra: Hm, thank you. That's a big question. realized for myself that I lived most of my life in a state of false identity. And it was about winning, achieving, get to the next goal, and there was not much rest. I realized I didn't really know myself. I knew myself to be an overachiever and a winner, but I'm more than that. And I realized ⁓ after almost dying winning ⁓ a competitive cyclist, that life is more than winning.
Craig Coyle: And somewhere in the forced stillness of a medically induced coma, she came to face the question that changed everything. Not just about her life, but about what she was here to do.
Debra: And it's also more than helping other people win. I love helping other people win. we have been taught that in our our country that what we're conditioned to in our mind. And so living that life ⁓ is not peaceful. It ⁓ ⁓ disconnected from who we are and that creates a lot of emotional disregulation, it creates a lot of frustration, it creates a lack of peace and joy inside of oneself. And I want leaders who have been taught like I have to know that their their their life matters, that are more than the achiever, they are more than outcomes and to not their worth against what they achieve.
Craig Coyle: That's so powerful. You know, one of things that we've talked about, I talk about this all the time, is it's often the very things that helped make us successful as an individual that often hold us back in leadership. And as I hear you talking about how this strive to be successful often holds back our life as a whole, it's also those things that are are running our internal wiring that She has spent over 30 years working with CEOs and executive teams on the invisible patterns and beliefs that quietly shape every decision a leader makes, often without them ever knowing it. She's the founder of Sunderland Coaching, the creator of the Invisible Wins framework, and one of the most compelling voices I've encountered on the internal work of leadership. Look, we've talked at length we project on others when we enter into leadership that then actually holds back our ability to create the results that we're quite honestly being paid to create as leaders. So I mean, I think that's so powerful. But ⁓ you know, one of things you and I we've talked about a lot, and you're really well known in the leadership space for is ⁓ this idea that you've owned these invisible patterns that continue to show up. ⁓ about the importance of mindset, EQ, self-leadership, and building a strong foundation as a leader. So it's only fitting to bring in an expert to help us take that conversation another layer deeper. So with all that said, here's my conversation with Debra Sunderland. What are they and like where do they come from?
Debra: Yeah, good good question. So all have a brain, obviously, and there's a small part of our brain, the amygdala, that is constantly surveying you, ⁓ ⁓ situation, the world, ⁓ it's surveying for safety. And it's for safety, ⁓ it's putting our mind, that part of our mind is putting us in a box. And we don't realize we're in this box. And we're like little rats, like around in this, right? And we can't get out. And we're like trying to like, you know, we want this, but we can't get it. And so it's first that the thinking of questioning our thoughts, because we taught to really question our beliefs and our thoughts. We I are we underutilize our our thoughts, our emotional intelligence, and our body intelligence, we've only been trained to use the least, most of the least effective is our brain, is our thinking. And so our creates stories all the time that are going to limit us in who we want to become, what we want to do, how want to get there. Most people do not know how to change and get the outcome. They think it's they're going to do more and more and more and get finally get the outcome they have. But it's really we need to shift our thinking because our thinking brings our emotional state, and our emotional state drives our behaviors, and thinking also develops a belief system that we're unaware of. Our mind ⁓ runs 65 to 70,000 thoughts a day are going to be defensive thoughts. And it's actually wanting us to stay where we are. It doesn't want us to grow. And so when we're or when we're getting the same outcome. It's a real wonder and a beautiful thing because it'd be like, ⁓ it's just my mind doing its thing, and I'm more than that. So learning how to get out of the pattern, our mind likes patterns. It doesn't like to go to a different pattern because it's like scared. And it wants to have its role in our life, which is to keep us safe, right? And so we want to thank it for doing that. ⁓ But if we continue to follow that path, we will ⁓
Craig Coyle: Yeah. That's it.
Debra: Never live a life of peace and joy in the outcomes we have with ease and flow. So it's learning the pattern that we all have. We have different patterns depending on our makeup, but seeing the pattern and realizing I'm not my pattern. I'm not my thoughts. I'm not my feelings. I'm not my behavior. I'm just experiencing this. And if I can be aware of it, then can dictate my outcomes because I'm going to change what's internally.
Craig Coyle: That's so powerful so what when you think about it from a from an organizational context right, I mean you work a lot with the leaders at the top of the if if you were to try to help coach a senior leader how to ⁓ and coach ⁓ subordinate leaders to some of things like How would you encourage that senior leader to go about doing that? Or even if it was the the kind of junior new leader themselves, like what are some of the things that you might say or encourage or even just the questions you might ask?
Debra: Yeah, so for instance, just to say that one of the senior leaders has a a new teammate and they're wanting to raise them up and grow as a leader. Growth is scary. Again, because the mind doesn't want to change. So I would just be as a leader of someone, I would ask them, How are you doing? How are you feeling? What's coming up for you? What are your thoughts? When you believe that thought, how do you feel? What is it that you most want to create? What do you also fear? So fear and want are on the same coin, just different sides of it. So I would ask them to ask them, what would you like to create? What would how would you like to grow? What do you fear about growing? What's your concerns about growth? How can I support you in your growth? Having deep conversations and also the leader themselves doing their own work. I always say, if we are leading people we thought we taught them to do something, or they agree they were going to do something, but it's not the outcome that you were seeking from that person. I always come back to myself. I always say, come back to yourself as a leader and be like, hmm, I want to get curious. How can I be responsible for an outcome that I thought was going to happen that didn't? Because again, even as leaders, we have patterns, and for me, I know myself, I can talk quickly. I think that someone's clear on what I'm asking, but I didn't check in because I'm on to the next thing. That's my default system. And so I'm going to go back and say, you know, I thought we agreed to this and we didn't get this outcome, no blame or shame. I want to discuss with you maybe where I wasn't clear or how can I support you in this where right? So it's a conversation that is open and curious versus blaming and shaming.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: So again, whenever we get an outcome we have and don't want, it's just feedback that our unconscious mind, the fearful part of our mind, is running us in our decision making. And the last thing I would really say, the most important thing is when we lead, we want to notice how we're leading ourselves. Am I leading with an attachment that something has to happen or this person needs to show up this way? And it's not going to be apparent. So just checking to see if you're attached to an outcome and there's some fear there, there's some anxiety or there's some frustration. If there's frustration or fear driving this it's unconscious state. And it's the own leader's responsibility to look at, huh? What is this decision or this path that I'm making? What's my belief that's causing me to have frustration or fear? And when I'm other people, ⁓ it could even be like it's a new person. And if the leader is a little anxious or frustrated with that person, it's never about the other person. It's stuff that we haven't dealt with in the past. And that person just doing their thing. So first of all, I'd say if you're a leader leading people, look at how is this person just showing up being them? It has nothing to do with something you haven't dealt with. And actually, how are they a gift for you to see something that you haven't healed? But then also being vulnerable and saying, you know.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: I'm feeling anxious right now because whatever that the story we make up in our head is that you should be further along than you are. And I'm wondering what's going on for you and how I can be of support. And I thought we were gonna be at this outcome by now and we're not, but I just wanna get curious with you because we all have a different thought and a way of doing things, and I just wanna know you.
Craig Coyle: Debra, you covered so much and I I hope the listeners picked up on so many different that that you you spoke to there. And one of the things that I I couldn't stop thinking about when you were you were kind of highlighting some of these beliefs and the importance to have these deeper conversations is you know, I talk all the time, especially on the show, about systems and processes and routine and consistency and how
Debra: Yeah.
Craig Coyle: so often it's the science of leadership that makes room for the art of leadership to have its stage. And I'm just thinking this whole time was like, wow, all these things Debra's talking about are the case for why as a leader you need to have meetings with your team. You need to have one-on-ones. You need to be able to delegate so that you have capacity so you can be present and you can have that conversation in the moment when the moment demands it, even if it's not a part of your routine. And then just, you know, all the things about EQ and self-management and self-awareness and leveraging the resources that some people way smarter than me have created, right? To help us put understanding into who we are and how we relate with others and the emotions that we're feeling and what they mean and the mindsets that are, you know, hardwired into us for no fault of our own, but based off maybe our life experiences or how we were raised or the society we grew up in or the professional world we grew up in and how that drives just how we show up in each and every moment. ⁓ You know, one of the things we've talked a lot about, and you hinted at it there a couple times, is this idea of fear. Like fear is something that controlled my life, but we've talked about this for a very long time. It was fear of not being loved, fear of not being accepted, and it it put me into this operating if will, of just ⁓ seeking excellence ⁓ and pursuing ⁓ Not really the sake of of success, but for the sake of
Debra: Yes.
Craig Coyle: needing to be appreciated or needing to be validated and and all these other things. you think about that through the lens of, you someone who's new to leadership or someone in high pressure environment, someone with, ⁓ you know, you get XYZ out the door by the end of the month. It's easy to say and have a conversation between two people who are who are you know, put a lot of time into growing their EQ and understanding these things. It's easy to have a conversation about fear driving us and and those things. But how does that actually manifest in a normal working environment? And and how do you notice it? And and better yet, honestly, like noticing it's half the battle, but then what do you do with it, you know?
Debra: Я Yeah, I love that. So I just wanna say I love that you asked that because when I work at the C-level many of them do not want to admit that there's fear there. And we all have fear. anxiety, fear of getting the outcome that seeking. And so first of all, I would say, notice, are you willing to say I have fear? And it's okay, because fear is actually wisdom. If we feel that so I always say feel your feelings all the way through. We have not been taught to feel our feelings. So if we want to learn emotional intelligence, mind creates an electrical current when it's having thoughts. I've had an EEG and you can see the you know the the the the scan right of your brain doing something. And that's an energy, and that energy gets pushed into our body when it's having a thought. Emotion is actually energy motion. That's what emotion means.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: So it's just this energy coming through our body as like if you were plugging in an electrical outlet, ⁓ you know, ⁓ a cord into an electrical outlet, ⁓ it wants to just come out that energy. So I tell people, it can be scary that the emotions are coming up because we haven't felt them. A okay, that let give yourself some grace on it. And only last for 90 seconds at the And they come in little waves of fear or terror. Or little waves of anxiety or frustration, I should say, or rage, little waves of sadness or grief, right? That's just that we're human. That's what it does. We are wired so perfectly. The goal is to let the emotion pass through us so that we're at equilibrium to be present. Otherwise, it gets stored as triggers in our adrenals. And that's why we become reactive, reactive, reactive, because the body remembers ⁓
Craig Coyle: Mm-hmm.
Debra: that there wasn't something that was allowed to pass through those emotions. And it's thinking that it's a current situation that's happening, but really it's a past situation. And so really just how can you just let it pass? And it gets really big, let it be as big as it wants. And then once it passes, then you ask yourself, what was my belief? What was I telling myself that created this emotion?
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: And that's where we get the wisdom. So for fear, for instance, if we let the wisdom come, it means caution, slow down, pay attention. That's what what what fear means. So I would say invite your team to practice with you. Invite your people to practice because if we all want to learn as leaders, we need a partner to learn, right? And sometimes we're unaware of certain emotions. We are we push them down. And so certain people are like the unconsciously like, I'm not gonna get angry, but you can tell they're angry because they're red in the face and they're like raising their voice and right. So we need each other to say, Hey, I'm curious, what's going on for you right now? I can sense there's something here. I'll stop in the boardroom and when they're talking and I'll be like, Hey guys, or to the specific person, I can notice something's here. Can you feel it? And they might not because we're not trained in it. And I'll say, I can see sadness come up for you right now. Do you sense that's there? 'Cause you can you can see it in their eyes, you can see it in their face. And they're like, Yeah and I said, Can you just take a pause? So I would encourage people to take a pause and allow emotion to be there instead of being reactive. If we want to create outcomes that we're seeking, we must do this.
Craig Coyle: Right. Mm. so powerful. We were talking last about how so often in the world most adults can really only identify an emotion that's on the extreme end of a spectrum, right? Whether they're feeling anxious or they're feeling angry or on the other side they're feeling happy, right? Or elated maybe or filled with joy. But often there's a string, not time, right? Sometimes there's a situation where it goes from zero to a hundred real quick, right? And that's probably when you're actually in a fight or flight response and you need that fight or flight response, right? But so
Debra: Yes.
Craig Coyle: often in the normal living of our lives, there's a string of emotions that are leading all the way up to that extreme emotion, and it takes that level of of awareness of each those emotions ⁓ that that us prevent situations from getting to where they don't need to be, right? Like for me, the easiest way to explain this that that it really helped me transform my leadership is I am a conflict avoider. I hate confrontation. I'm introverted, right? I'm a perfectionist. I just it's not something that ⁓ just my temperament excels at or really enjoys whatsoever. But I know as a leader, the biggest frustrations occur when there's gap in And when there's a gap in expectation as a leader, it's your job to close it. Or else the frustration is gonna continue to compound into resentment and then you know probably a failure at some point, which is gonna turn into anger, right? And all these things. And so what I had to learn how to do is when I started feeling anxious about something, I knew that it would probably turn into frustration, and that if I ever felt frustration
Debra: Yeah. Mm.
Craig Coyle: that if I didn't do something about it, it would probably eventually turn into anger or something way worse that actually had a tangible impact on what was going on in the organization. And so that that awareness of anxiety turned into my greatest tool. Because it told me, ⁓ I've got something I need to go do.
Debra: Yeah. It's it's Yeah, it's it's interesting and love that you noticed that and want everyone to know in the world, ⁓ everyone that's listening is that we are unique and gifted and if we don't allow if we give ourselves space to know ourselves, know our thinking, know our patterns, know our emotions, know how we show up. We won't know ourselves and what are we living for? What are we working for, right? We're more than work. And one day we aren't gonna be working. one day we might have resentment because we didn't really live the life we're supposed to live. So I want everyone to question their thoughts, their beliefs, their decision making. And decision making comes from two places fear and control or trust and love.
Craig Coyle: Hmm.
Debra: And most organizations that I've been in are based in fear and control. We can never ⁓ a thriving, high performing team out of fear and control. ⁓ impossible. And so the work is always at the top leader and whatever they do and allow what permeates the rest of the organization. ⁓ What they their people to also goes across the organization. So I really say this from most organizations that I've been in are based in fear and control. And We can never ⁓ a thriving, high performing team out of fear and control. It's And so the work is always at the top leader and whatever they do and allow is permeates the rest of the organization.
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: the highest of leaders across is the more you discover yourself, challenge your people to discover them. How can you support them to and or even notice where they're excited about something, where they really get lit up? Because many people come to work just to get the job done. And that is no way to live of your life. so it is normal for us to make decisions out of fear. Because we haven't learned how to get out of it. So don't blame yourself, but just notice that you're doing it and notice the outcomes that happen when you're making them from some kind of fear or control state. And how might you gain a new perspective? What is the fear? Right. And so I notice that many leaders want to step in because something's really important to them. And they don't
Craig Coyle: Yeah.
Debra: really want to trust someone on their team, not that they don't like that person, ⁓ but in that moment, they're like, well, I can do it faster, or I can do it better, or this is a really important client, or this is a really important call. And so they step in and they can try try to control an outcome, pushing that other person aside. And what it's saying to that person that was supposed to be taking that role in that moment is, you don't trust me. And when we don't have trust in an organization, people not ⁓ to ⁓ forward because they're already getting blocked by the person stepping in their space. And so eventually they're like, ⁓ why fully play in this game? Because I'm not welcome here. And the CEO or the leader is like, Well, they're not high performing. I've asked them to do this. They don't seem to really care. And they don't see how they've created this little drama triangle. then that person is either going to stay not happy or they're going to get be put on a performance plan or they're going to quit or they're going to get fired, right? Something's going to happen. So I just want everyone to know we all want to win. Who wants to go to to work and be like, yeah, I suck today and I want my boss to be upset with me and I don't no one. We most of us want to achieve together, we want to win. But typically that's not what's happening. So we wanna look at what's the culture we're creating from the top down and across, because that we can change. But it takes responsibility, radical responsibility for each of us to know how we think, feel and behave, and what to shift when I get an outcome I don't have. It's our thinking, feeling and behavior. ⁓ Yeah.
Craig Coyle: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's I I love that because one of the things I I'll tell people all the time is I love working in leadership because One, you help people transform organizations and create results that they're struggling to create. That's great, but that's superficial, if you ask me. The best part about working in leadership is it gives you a platform to help make people better people, honestly, and live better lives. And you do that, yeah, directly through the leader you work with, but also do it indirectly by creating a leader that creates an environment that everybody wants to be a part of. That they don't get the Sunday scaries. They're actually excited to wake up and go to work and be a part of something bigger than themselves. And this this plays such a critical role in that because how we show up and how we interact ⁓ with is driven by how we lead ourselves, right? One of the things I always like to ask folks that come on show is one of the biggest challenges in
Debra: Yes. That's right.
Craig Coyle: industry and the corporate world in general the between individual contributor leader. And I and I say that because so often ⁓ the people get promoted into leadership aren't getting promoted because of potential for leadership. They're getting promoted because they were really good at what they were doing. Whether it was a technical skill, could be a machinist, could be a marketer, could be, you know, you see this a lot in sales, right? The best salesperson becomes the sales manager.
Debra: Yeah.
Craig Coyle: Through the lens of this internal work, mindset work, the coaching you do, why do you see that as a difficult bridge for people to cross?
Debra: Yeah. So I think because people ⁓ good at doing and getting things done, task goal oriented, but they're not necessarily relating well to other people because they're not knowing themselves and relating to themselves well. Just like you had said earlier, you anxious, you didn't know how to really love yourself. And I still see I'll ask the very top, do you three questions? Do you believe you're enough? Do you believe you have enough? Just right here, right now. do you know how to love yourself? And there's only one CEO recently who is just on my podcast who has said yes to all those three questions. That means they're driving out of not enoughness, a scarcity. I'm not enough, so there isn't enough. And that not enough gives us a very tight perspective and it blocks people, puts us in defense. That's a defensive mind. And so when we're in defense. We can't hear other people. We are not able to hear other people. And it's kind of like I always say, if you were on a football team you only play defense, how well is that team that football team gonna do? Ain't gonna do so well. And that's why I think we're struggling because we haven't learned to be open and curious and play offensively. We've been trying to control ⁓ trying to make things happen. ⁓ And so I would just say, hey guys, if you a new and rising leader, be vulnerable, be authentic. If you're already high up there, be vulnerable. Say, I'm struggling with this. This is my thought. And when I believe this is how I feel, this is what I would really like. What do you think? If can share that authenticity and vulnerability, it creates a trusting, loving environment versus just robots showing up to get a job done.
Craig Coyle: That's so good. And you know, that's the perfect segue into a closing question. You kind of alluded to it already. But when we start doing this internal work, whether we're the new leader, whether they're the senior leader, or whether we're the individual trying to figure out how to scale this level of awareness and self-management and just openness and vulnerability in a big organization, when these things start falling into place, whether that's for a supervisor leading a team of ten or for a leader leading an organization of of thousands, if you will. When these things start falling into place, what what happens? What changes? Why is it why is it something that when people start getting it right, they kind of become addicted to it?
Debra: Yeah. Well, it feels good. It feels good to be in a place where you can be real because then you're seen and everyone wants to be seen and everyone wants to be heard. And they say 98% of the time, if there's an issue, if someone is just heard, not changing the outcome or the situation, but just that someone is heard, it it breaks down everything. And so when we can practice this work, the barriers come down. And when barriers are down, people feel that they are able to be heard. So they're going to share more, and more ideas are going to come forward than maybe even the CEO. And we want as many ideas as possible because we have limitless decisions to make. But the unconscious mind gives us right, wrong, good, black, black, white. It doesn't give us a full spectrum. So if we can create an organization where people are welcome to share their ideas and heard. Holy cow. Right. And that's exciting. Super exciting.
Craig Coyle: Yeah, it's it's so funny. The you know, the stigma of companies like Chick-fil-A in obviously in the US and Toyota in the industrial space, they kinda they have this almost like distance aura for people that aren't a part of those organizations or senior leaders in other organizations that think like, ⁓ yeah, that's they're just kinda lucky. They they just kinda it's because of their brand. But folks, I mean everybody had to start somewhere, right? And and it's possible, it doesn't matter what you
Debra: That's right.
Craig Coyle: what you create, what you sell, your demographics are, like it it just comes down to how you view people, how you lead yourself, and how you allow everybody within your organization to do the same. So Debra, was an awesome conversation. If people want to learn more about you, connect with you, follow the work you're doing, where can they find you?
Debra: Thank you. So Sunderland Coaching, S-U-N-D-E-R-L-A-N-D coaching.com. ⁓ And actually I have an assessment there. If you all are interested, if you go right to that page, you'll see an assessment. And it is a leadership assessment. It only takes about 10 minutes, but it helps you discover your patterning that you might not be aware of that is keeping you from creating the outcomes you want. ⁓ And ⁓ and ways out of it. So if you're interested, take that. ⁓ and if you're interested in knowing more about conscious leadership, absolutely would love to talk with you.
Craig Coyle: I love it. And as we've talked about, right? Assessment is the first step forward. Just like you're driving down the road to somewhere you've never been before, Google doesn't only ask you where you want to be, ⁓ asks you where you are right now. And that's the perfect step. So thanks. Thanks for this awesome conversation, Debra. I really appreciate it.
Debra: That's right. That's right. Thanks, Craig. You're awesome. Thank you.
