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Welcome to the everyday determinator podcast with your host Anne Okafor founder of the determining or collective, we want to help you get off that hamster wheel of life and turn you into an everyday the Terminator by shooting stories for Americans who have overcome varying challenges in life on careers and by reviewing and signposting you to help or resources to start you on the journey to achieving your goals.
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For more information on the Terminator collective, please visit www.un okafor.co.uk Thanks for listening. determinator.
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terminators and welcome to the everyday the Terminator Podcast. Today we're talking to Linda Harding, who is a volunteer and recently appointed chair of the board of trustees have listened well, Scotland listened well, Scotland is a charity, which provides quality listening training and courses to make a positive contribution to the mental well being of people in Scotland.
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Their mission is to develop listening people and listening culture in Scotland and beyond.
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So Linda, thank you so much for in joining us today. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this role of volunteer of chair to the board of trustees that listened? Well?
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Yes, thank you. And thank you for the privilege of joining you in this podcast. Yeah, my professional background is in the National Health Service. I was originally a speech and language therapist, then became a manager. And actually, that lasted for about 25 years, and was really involved during that time and lots of kind of working with people and so on. And then I actually had a career change.
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And I've spent the last 20 years actually travelling the world working with faith based NGOs, non government organisations and with churches, training and mentoring on cross cultural communication, and encouraging especially and mentoring young people in up to 100 countries now to make a difference in the world. So that's my kind of twofold professional background.
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And I moved to Scotland six years ago, kind of semi retirement. And not long after I arrived in Scotland at a local Nan, which is where I live now and book an arts festival. I heard a very inspiring woman, Maureen Wilson speak. And she was speaking about a listen well award, that her charity that's Listen, while Scotland had developed in a local Academy, training young people to be good listeners, with their peers. And it was just I have to say I was so inspired by listening to her.
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And so I decided to sign up for the Listen world training to find out more. And that was three years ago, and and I've recently just joined the board as chair of Trustees. It was amazing. And honestly, when I did the training, you know, it really kind of impacted me, I had 50 years of background as a therapist, as a manager, as a church, Pastoral Worker, as a trained counsellor. I'd spent nearly 50 years listening to people, but realise that a lot of my listening was about giving advice, generating options, trying to solve their problems, sharing my own insights. And when I engaged with Listen, while Scotland I discovered a, I guess, the value of just listening and listening in a way where that's all you do. You don't try and solve anyone's problems. You just listen and help them to generate their solutions. It was really different. And yeah, I was so impacted
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that somebody isn't here. And it's good to hear your background as well coming from Google NHS, speech therapy and then doing 20 years of, you know, sort of pastoral, sort of, I guess, a lot of communication work. Because you're in talks about cross cultural communication between different faiths and things. There's a lot of communication needed for those sorts of conversations, a lot of listening, a lot of talking. So it's really interesting to hear that even with that experience, that it had some impact on you and some realisations for you. I think we know I generally think of myself as a good listener. But I know I'm also conscious that I can always improve on my skills. And I think for me, I think listening is a an underrated kind of skill. It's under saw that, you know, we all think we have it, but actually, we don't really do things to improve it.
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And this is what sparked my interest. And when I came across Linda and your colleague on social media, and because you talked about young professionals or young people, and listening is a really good skill that we can develop for our careers. And a difference, isn't it?
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Absolutely.
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And, and I think, you know, I think something you said that, sometimes listening is not really understood. And people think a lot about talking. But you know, to talk, you've got to go to listen, and listen well.
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And I think there is a skill in learning to listen. And it's a skill that people of all ages, I believe, need to learn and can learn. And it's a transferable skill that you can use in everyday life.
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No, absolutely. So I'm on that point. You know, it's something we can learn. And this is what the mission of Listen well is about is to educate people that this is a skill, I guess, because, you know, like I said, we we have many conversations as a society just now. And it's all about talk more, talk more, talk more, if people are talking who's listening, you know, when we need to make sure that people are not only just listening, but listening? Well, because a lot of the conversations were asking people to talk about are maybe sensitive, or you know, maybe have big emotions attached to them. So it's important that people are listening well. And you know, developing that skill of listening whales mission is to do that. So tell us a little bit more about listening well, and what that mission involves for you as volunteers or for the charity as a whole?
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Yeah, well, I think the absolute foundation of less than one, Scotland is the realisation and the value of that listening is so important.
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That to that, actually, everybody needs to talk, everybody has a story to tell.
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And as you've said, yourself, and often people have got concerns. And they need to find a way of expressing those, they need to know that their story is really important and worth listening to. So that's the kind of underlying sort of ethos behind this and while Scotland that everybody needs to talk, and especially actually now in this time, after all we've been through with COVID, there's, there is a rise in mental health challenges and well being. And so I think, listen, while Scotland is seeking to respond to that often unheard cry, could you just listen to me and listening in a way that is authentic and real, that really, really values the person, whatever they say, is important, because it's important to them.
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And I think the belief that actually, for many people, if they just had somebody who would really listen to them, it may prevent their need for further specialist. You know, intervention. We know that kind of mental health services in Scotland are so overstretched, we read continually, like mental health challenges are at epidemic level. But the reality is what Listen, Scotland is seeking to do is to normalise the need to talk. So that's the sort of ethos behind Listen, Scotland. I don't know if you want to ask me any more about that. And and then I can explain what the scare is.
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Certainly pointed to lots of different things in there. But one thing that really resonated with me is that, that need that sort of unharmed cry about just listen to me. You know, so many times when people get to a crisis point is, I just want you to listen, I just want you to hear me, you know, and then we often think that we listen, but do we often hear people really well. And I think that's the difference in what you're trying to help people make that connection. And there is a real positive impact on mental resilience. Well, being in general, yes. When we feel heard, you know, I mean, a lot of times, when we feel heard, we, you know, we talk about it, and you know, when I feel heard in my workplace, I feel like things get better or when I feel heard at home, you know, so we often when people are suffering from wellbeing challenges, it's because they feel not recognised, not feel invisible.
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And I think this sort of listening, is that missing part of the conversation, you know, because we're, we're encouraging people talk more, talk more, talk more. That listening part, I think, is part of that conversation, and it's missed, I think, would you agree with that?
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I would really agree with that. And I think listening is not really understood and you've you've He kind of said that yourself that I think there's not enough emphasis on just listening, you know, people understand the professional intervention. I mean, I myself have been a professional counsellor, but actually, just listening is is a transferable life skill. And there's very little of it around, but it can be taught, you know, I often think about listening, really listening well, and I'll talk to you about the training that isn't, well, Scotland offers but the listening where you are 100% present with that person. And the question is, can you really listen, while you're also sending a text on your mobile, where you're reading your Facebook page, where you're, you know, we all feel we multitask.
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And we do that in everyday life.
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I think what I really appreciated when I did the Listen, while Scotland training was, you cannot multitask. And listen, it's about being 100% present, and even listening in a way where you're not focusing on your reply. Because that was something I found, I was often listening, but half of me was thinking how I was going to respond. Yeah. And therefore you're not actually listening.
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100%? Yeah,
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I think there's, there's a lot of famous quotes as well around that sort of listening for response, you know, a lot of leadership sort of teachings about that listening for a response as well. And, you know, we need to if we're really listening, like you say, we need to get away from that. And I was at a conference just a few days ago, and there was a sports psychologist there called Michael Caulfield, and he'd worked with some big names and football, and what he said he used to do, and one of his big things was talking and it really struck me because I knew I was having this conversation today.
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Sort of like, you know, things for well being was talking but also listening and, you know, had as a separate skill set and a separate thing to do, or well being. And I think that's really important that people are recognising that. And one of the things he said he used to do, as part of, you know, his team talks, was just take his dog to the football ground and just walk around with with whoever he was speaking to. And just listen, you know, he said, Just take the dog. And we would just talk and listen, you know, and it's just something that seems so simple and so basic. And I guess something that we all maybe think that we do well, yeah. But I think you know, having started looking at this more having met Linda and no, knowing a bit this conversation today, you know, I know that it's something I can get better at. So if someone was interested to come to say, Listen, well, because they've made that realisation for themselves. What sort of offering is there there for people? What sort of courses or training do you offer?
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Yeah, well listen to Scotland, they offer a training, there's a training process. And that training process is to give practical help. It includes practice, it's experiential learning, it can be delivered hybrid, so either online or face to face, that face to face is just picking up again now. And it's training for all ages. So there's training that's targeted for schools and young people to help schools become safe listening schools, at peer level training, but also training for adults, there's an option as you go through the training, you can choose to become a registered listener, and then offer services of what we call listening time for you one to one listening time in a safe space. But many people do the training for their own benefit to learn how to apply it in their own workplace. There's an initial training called Let's get listening, which is a short online training, this training is so accessible, and so applicable, it's very practical.
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And then, then you can go on and then do the next stage, which is the listen while workshop. And then you can move further and do what we call the advanced listening training. So as I say, all online, or face to face, and really what the training focuses on is helps you to understand the skills of listening and what real good listening is and what it's not to identify some of the obstacles like, Yeah, always thinking about your reply, or sometimes interrupting or even making the assumption that you understand the other person when none of us fully do. So. I think even making sure you don't bring your own story and your own experience into the listening so that it's practical skills that you can learn through the training courses. And as I say, you could choose them to go on yourself and be a trainer in your workplace or your school or your community. Or you could decide to become a Interested listeners. So those are the options. Or you can just use the training for your own life experience to use with your friends and family.
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Excellent. So it's it really sounds like there's something there for everybody.
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And something for people who maybe just want to get started and test pester a little bit in an online course. And I'm gonna mention the online course specifically, because as you know, I'm going through that at the moment, yes, I saw that I can write about this well, so that I can sort of give a user perspective so that people can see and understand I'm going to keep her diary of what my thoughts were before and afterwards just to see what I've learned and add that in. And also listeners, I'm going to mention just now I'm going to sponsor three places on that course also. And I'm going to ask you to email me with the word tartan. Because listen, well has their own tartan. If you're listening in and you're listening, well, you'll have heard that cue. And if you listen, and email me the word tartan, I will get you linked up with Linda and the lovely people aren't listening well, before place to try this course out for yourself as well would be in this as listened week, we will do what we can to get other people involved. So that's just a little bit off point. But in terms of the online course, so it is a fairly short course it's I think it's 10 hours of learning over six modules, isn't it? And covers, you know, everything from why you might want to start doing this all the way through to you know, what is less than and what you can do to be a better listener really, is that that's my understanding at the moment.
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Yeah, that's exactly it. And yeah, you can pace it, you can do it yourself, you actually, when you sign up for it's called, let's get listening, you actually have the opportunity to do it over three months if you want to, although most people do it in a much more focused time. But it's designed in such a way you can watch one of the sessions and then have time for your own personal reflection and learning. But you do need to complete the whole process, because then you'll get the maximum benefit from it, and you'll learn about yourself, and you'll you'll find you immediately can apply it. And then of course, if you enjoy that, then you can go on to do further training.
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Excellent. Well, I am very much looking forward to going through that process. And the results of that will be on my blog, which we will share during this week as well. And I will post the link for that in the show notes below people. So if you're listening to this, or if you're reading on the screen reader, the show notes will be at the bottom, and it'll have the link to my blog, which will have my experience of the let's get listening course. And that you can access from the website when the link for that will also be in the show notes. We've talked a little bit about the offering. And you know, what Listen, well is on a mission to do but in a general sense of people maybe looking to us and listening for their work. What can people do to gain skills?
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You know, I know it's going to be part of the courses and things but what can we generally do? If we want to learn to listen better?
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I think the training is absolutely essential, because it helps to give you real insights and practice. So I would really encourage people to look at the listening Scotland website that's www dot Listen, while scotland.org.uk There's lots of stories on there, the impact of the training and the impact of people of what it's felt like to be listened to. And I think just that gains insight, which is really helpful, you've mentioned and the online course or let's get listening online, I cannot recommend that too highly to you. And to all those who are listening to it have a great impact. And I think one of the things that's really important is the understanding, there's listening, and there's listening well, and everyone can learn to listen, whatever age, whatever your experience, it's never too late. It's never too early. And listening well is a transferable life skill. You know, I found myself when I did the training, I immediately began to use it in telephone conversations, when calls with friends with family.
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It really does change your own awareness, I became so aware of how often I interrupt because I try and finish somebody's sentence for them. And I also was really aware how much I love to solve people's problems. I want to try and fix I want to find a solution for them. And the realisation that if you listen to them, they can find their own solution, they can generate the options themselves.
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And that's so much more empowering that's so much more about enhancing their own mental and emotional resilience, you know and that realisation When that listening can be such a powerful contributor to our general well being at this time.
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So yeah, you can use your listening skills in everyday life and make a positive difference to someone's world somewhere.
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No, I mean, that's great. I think it's really important to notice as well that when we are listening, but perhaps not listening, as well, as we could, a lot of these things that we do are come from a good place, you know, we try and interrupt or because we're trying to be helpful, we're trying to help people fix the problems, because we genuinely want to help. But actually, sometimes the best thing that we can do for them is just to take a step back and just let them you know, let them be let them process and let them figure it out. And sometimes that may be that they need assistance. But you know, I think a lot of the times, it does come from within, you know, what, it's just, I've had some coaching sessions, and sometimes it is really powerful just to let someone go, you know, it's on you. I'm listening, I'm here, I'm hearing everything you're saying. And just that being able to process it all the way through for yourself, actually makes you realise sometimes what, what is at the core of the problem, sometimes it's not always just what we think it might be, you know, sometimes it's a little bit deeper. And actually, by having that space, and someone just to really listen, it really helps us to get to that point.
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So really understand that point of it. And I'm looking forward to being able to go through the training myself and understand where this you know, where I am falling down as, as our listener at the moment, I'm very conscious as well, I sometimes do interrupt, and I also try and finish people sentences also very similar to your Start experience. And again, it's always just from a place of trying to be helpful to offer advice or trying to comfort people, but actually, I can probably do more good if I just take a step back. So I'm really excited to find out why learn about myself in the process. And I'm sure there'll be probably things I'm not aware of yet as well. Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to that. So we're talking about listening.
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And you mentioned before as well about being quite complex, everybody's different as we are in our wonderful ways. Tell us a little bit more about that. What does that mean, in terms of the training? So if we have this training, obviously, it's accessible to everybody.
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Listening is a complex thing we've we've mentioned, how does that work then? So if the training is the same for everybody, how does it work? And how do we aren't able to understand those complexities within ourselves with a trading that is made for everybody?
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Yeah, well, I think there's a process in the training. So you've got the initial one, which you've signed up for, you're going to do and and then, you know, there's the next one. And then by the time we get to the advanced course, there's a lot more sort of self evaluation and self reflection and really going quite deep in your own journey. So there's a lot of practice where you as the trainee are talking about yourself to a trained listener.
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So you're really getting in touch with your own journey and what might be some of the trigger points or obstacles in your own story that might impact negatively actually on your listening. So that's part of the process of learning. Another really key thing that I think is important to understand in the Listening training that is the mascot and provide, we are not training people to be counsellors we are not training people to be therapists are very, very clear about this.
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We're just training and just listening. So part of this training, raises awareness of when somebody might raise an issue that you know, is beyond the scope of just listening. So there is clear training of when you need to point somebody for professional input, you know, intervention of, you know, a medical or you know, mental health practitioners or counselling. But listen, well training is just about listening, but includes understanding of the complexity of yeah, as you said, our makeup as human beings and it's the first step and whilst for a lot of people that is all their need, and it will empower them and help their own well being and generate solutions. Of course, there will be those that have more complex needs, and they will require further professional intervention and in the training, we don't address how to provide that that's from trained professionals, but we signpost we help people to Understand when they need to kind of press the button and say, further intervention is required. So it's really important, especially for your listeners who are professional people who, from my perspective, as a professional person, we all can benefit from this listening training. But there is such a need for professional intervention for a segment of people.
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Yeah, and for specific things as well that you don't be expected to be a specialist. And also, it's good to know that that's a really good point to make as well, because we're not expecting people to take on, you know, other people's feelings, emotions, he was listening, and then signposting to appropriate professional services when required. And I guess, is there some, obviously you're operating in across Scotland? So predominantly, your resources will be Scotland focused, I presume. But I guess you have partners or, you know, maybe an awareness of the types of services that are available in Scotland? Would that be right?
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Or
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Yes, yes, there's, there's a list of resources where people can be referred on to and all of the signposted to. And yes, it is a Scottish charity, although with the online training, people can access it from wherever, but in terms of the follow up resources that would be predominantly signposting for resources in Scotland. Yeah, that's great.
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And it's great to know that that sort of resource point is obvious. I'm based in Scotland, but you know, that is they are unavailable to people who are going through the training as a starting point, at least, you know, and I guess people may know of their own preferred services and their own areas as well, or charities or resources that they have used themselves that may be appropriate for whoever there was a time. So
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at mighty, we just worked me adding to and that all those who are trained trainers and listeners within Western, listen, Scotland, there's a sort of support framework around those people so that, you know, that it, there's a professionalism in the delivery of the training and listening that has, you know, supervision built into it, within the boundaries of what the just listening approach is, and all the training is CPD accredited as well, I should probably mention that for those for whom that is of interest.
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You know, that's really great to know as well, because I know certainly as professionals as well, which a lot of our listeners will be, that is an important thing. And we have to have CPD hours noted and things like that for professional bodies, and you know, maybe workplaces and things. So it's good to know that this is something that, you know, that could be attributed to that. Because, again, it's a really important career skill, as well, you know, in developing your career, if you're listening. Well, you talk we've talked a lot about in terms of well being but actually, in a career space, it's very important transferable skill, also, in being able to navigate the workplace, and to work middle colleagues who may be from different places with different experiences, you know, that there's a high likeliness that that is the case. So, you know, listen in the workplace is a really important thing, as well. So can we just talk about that for a little second, like so we've talked, I mean, obviously, mental well being and wellbeing in the workplace is important as well. So on that point, it covers us, but in terms of as a career skill, what would you see the benefit to people over? You know, listening well, as a career skill? What would you see the benefits of that?
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I think the benefits of listening well, for anybody but as a career skill, people to grow in their own self awareness is such an important skill. And in every career, every workplace environment, it's that ability to really respect every individual to recognise, everyone has their own story, everyone has their own circumstances. And people go through different seasons of life, you know, within the workplace to recognise that, yeah, just to recognise that person is a human being, and they're, they're working, but they've got maybe different things they're working through in their lives at different seasons. So just knowing that they can be listened to they can be heard, they can be respected, they can be real and authentic.
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I believe those are just life transforming values that enhance in a person's living and well being in the workplace.
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Absolutely. I agree. And I think one of the big things that we we miss you, I said it before, it's the missing piece in the conversation, you know, we're always telling people talk, talk, talk. We're not telling people listen, listen, listen and be a bit of both before we actually make progress. And I think for me, you know, we're talking a lot about mental well being but also what's big in workplaces, just known as diversity inclusion lists There's got to be part of that conversation, hasn't it?
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Because, yeah, we've talked about their understanding that we're all individual human beings with individual experiences and needs. Without listening, we're not doing that very well, are we?
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Absolutely not. And this and while Scotland's really committed to, you know, diversity and inclusivity, you know, this is for all people of all, whatever their situation, whatever their background, just being respectful, and showing the value of every person that they are important, their situation, whatever they say, is valuable and important for them. And that makes such a difference in terms of normalising that person's experience, and accepting them and enabling them to know that it's really okay to talk and whatever they say, they will not be judged, they will not be criticised, they will just be accepted and understood. And that's very powerful.
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Absolutely. And as a, I guess, as a person in a workplace, having a workplace that has a culture of that, listening of that, you know, awareness, that level of awareness, surely makes it a much better and more pleasant place to work as well. And just, you know, surely a place like that will have people who thrive, we can all rather than people who feel, you know, scared to come out are scared to talk about what is the experiencing? If we're all listening well, and we're all supporting each other. Really, it's a much better culture a better place to be.
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Yeah, I mean, you mentioned culture. And and right at the beginning, you said that the vision of Listen, while Scotland is to see a listening culture across Scotland, and I mentioned listening schools, you know, part of our passion as a charity is to see every school become a listening School, a school where it's safe to talk, and there are safe places to talk and safe people to talk to. And to see every workplace as having that listening culture, where it's safe to talk in a place where people will listen well, the change of culture, I believe it can happen, as we see Scotland as a nation of listeners, why not? Well,
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certainly sounds like a wonderful thing to be striving for. For sure, you know, and I believe with you as well, that can happen. I just think for me, I think a lot of people don't realise that that is the missing link. And certainly for me, until I came across this and had some self reflection on it, realise, you know, this is the missing link, who is who we're talking to people telling people talk more, talk more, talk more, but it just seems that we're talking and we're still up against some of the same challenges. And we are slowly making progress towards a better society and a best culture, but there is a missing piece for me. And I really do feel like there's this listening piece, I don't feel like it's landing, as well as it could be, because we've not learned how to listen well yet.
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And I really do think this, if people get on board with this, and I really hope that they do, can really just make things better for so many people, you know, whether it's wellbeing wise, career wise, you know, a culture of inclusion wise, I just think there's so many good things that can come from the better listening, you know, across the board, in schools and workplaces. And, you know, I think this has got the potential to really just change the way we think about things. Yeah,
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I believe that too. And that's why I decided to volunteer my time is, you know, with this charity, and, you know, yeah, it's schools, it's workplaces, it's community, it's families to listening, and families. I think that's really important, you know, and among our friends, so it's at every, every sphere of society,
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absolutely can be applied anywhere. It really absolutely can. So, so listeners, you know, I want you to really engage with this if you can, like I said, we have the sponsor places for the training course. But I also hope you know, if you've thought that this might be useful that you will get in touch with listen well, Scotland. So, Linda, would you like to just recap us where the website is, and if you know if any of their social media platforms, listening well is on if you just name them and what we will do is we'll include those in the show notes so that you can just directly jump there if you want to find out more.
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Brilliant.
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Thanks, Anne. It's just been wonderful to meet you and talk.
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Yes, the website is www dot less than well scotland.org.uk And you will also find listen while Scotland on Facebook, on Twitter, and on Instagram. And if you go there you'll find details of the online course let's get listening, which is the entry point. And yeah, just as a as a final. Yeah, word.
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Everyone can learn to listen.
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Well, I really believe that. And let's get listening above the radar. And people realise that there's a lot more to listening than we think. But we can all be trained to listen. Well.
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That's excellent.
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Thank you so much for that. And if someone was looking to, to start this journey, and to listen well, and we trained to listen, well, what would be your top three tips or your top three points of what how they could get started? Well,
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I would suggest, first of all, and go to the website, or one of the social media pages, sign up to this, let's get listening online course it's so accessible, it will have such an impact that will be the great start to your listening journey. And then I guess a third tip is just to understand that you can learn to listen well. And as you learn the skills of listening, they can be transferable into every part of your life. And you can make a positive difference to someone somewhere, and you too, will find your own well being is enhanced.
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:27.329
Excellent, brilliant benefits for someone looking to get started on this.
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And I really hope that, you know, our listeners get involved in this project as well, because I think it's super important. I think if we're talking about conversations around mental health, mental wellbeing, inclusion, diversity, respect, fairness, listening needs to be and must be part of that conversation going forward. So Linda, I just want to thank you so much for your time and joining me today. You and the work of listen. Well, Scotland are both remarkable. And thank you for sharing those insights with us today.
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Thank you so much, Anna, for the and for the invitation. It's been a real joy.
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You're very welcome, listeners. If you are overcoming a challenge or moving towards your next one, please remember the determinator Collective is here for you.
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Thanks for listening to terminators.
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If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss when new episodes are posted. We will continue to deliver real life insights on overcoming challenges, practical tips and advice on becoming honest stuck with a collective of people just like you are every day the Terminator. Until next time, take care of yourselves and your friends.
00:37:36.628 --> 00:37:37.768
Thanks for listening
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Welcome to the everyday determinator podcast with your host Anne Okafor founder of the determining or collective, we want to help you get off that hamster wheel of life and turn you into an everyday the Terminator by shooting stories for Americans who have overcome varying challenges in life on careers and by reviewing and signposting you to help or resources to start you on the journey to achieving your goals.
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For more information on the Terminator collective, please visit www.un okafor.co.uk Thanks for listening. determinator.
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terminators and welcome to the everyday the Terminator Podcast. Today we're talking to Linda Harding, who is a volunteer and recently appointed chair of the board of trustees have listened well, Scotland listened well, Scotland is a charity, which provides quality listening training and courses to make a positive contribution to the mental well being of people in Scotland.
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Their mission is to develop listening people and listening culture in Scotland and beyond.
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So Linda, thank you so much for in joining us today. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this role of volunteer of chair to the board of trustees that listened? Well?
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Yes, thank you. And thank you for the privilege of joining you in this podcast. Yeah, my professional background is in the National Health Service. I was originally a speech and language therapist, then became a manager. And actually, that lasted for about 25 years, and was really involved during that time and lots of kind of working with people and so on. And then I actually had a career change.
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And I've spent the last 20 years actually travelling the world working with faith based NGOs, non government organisations and with churches, training and mentoring on cross cultural communication, and encouraging especially and mentoring young people in up to 100 countries now to make a difference in the world. So that's my kind of twofold professional background.
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And I moved to Scotland six years ago, kind of semi retirement. And not long after I arrived in Scotland at a local Nan, which is where I live now and book an arts festival. I heard a very inspiring woman, Maureen Wilson speak. And she was speaking about a listen well award, that her charity that's Listen, while Scotland had developed in a local Academy, training young people to be good listeners, with their peers. And it was just I have to say I was so inspired by listening to her.
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And so I decided to sign up for the Listen world training to find out more. And that was three years ago, and and I've recently just joined the board as chair of Trustees. It was amazing. And honestly, when I did the training, you know, it really kind of impacted me, I had 50 years of background as a therapist, as a manager, as a church, Pastoral Worker, as a trained counsellor. I'd spent nearly 50 years listening to people, but realise that a lot of my listening was about giving advice, generating options, trying to solve their problems, sharing my own insights. And when I engaged with Listen, while Scotland I discovered a, I guess, the value of just listening and listening in a way where that's all you do. You don't try and solve anyone's problems. You just listen and help them to generate their solutions. It was really different. And yeah, I was so impacted
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that somebody isn't here. And it's good to hear your background as well coming from Google NHS, speech therapy and then doing 20 years of, you know, sort of pastoral, sort of, I guess, a lot of communication work. Because you're in talks about cross cultural communication between different faiths and things. There's a lot of communication needed for those sorts of conversations, a lot of listening, a lot of talking. So it's really interesting to hear that even with that experience, that it had some impact on you and some realisations for you. I think we know I generally think of myself as a good listener. But I know I'm also conscious that I can always improve on my skills. And I think for me, I think listening is a an underrated kind of skill. It's under saw that, you know, we all think we have it, but actually, we don't really do things to improve it.
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And this is what sparked my interest. And when I came across Linda and your colleague on social media, and because you talked about young professionals or young people, and listening is a really good skill that we can develop for our careers. And a difference, isn't it?
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Absolutely.
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And, and I think, you know, I think something you said that, sometimes listening is not really understood. And people think a lot about talking. But you know, to talk, you've got to go to listen, and listen well.
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And I think there is a skill in learning to listen. And it's a skill that people of all ages, I believe, need to learn and can learn. And it's a transferable skill that you can use in everyday life.
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No, absolutely. So I'm on that point. You know, it's something we can learn. And this is what the mission of Listen well is about is to educate people that this is a skill, I guess, because, you know, like I said, we we have many conversations as a society just now. And it's all about talk more, talk more, talk more, if people are talking who's listening, you know, when we need to make sure that people are not only just listening, but listening? Well, because a lot of the conversations were asking people to talk about are maybe sensitive, or you know, maybe have big emotions attached to them. So it's important that people are listening well. And you know, developing that skill of listening whales mission is to do that. So tell us a little bit more about listening well, and what that mission involves for you as volunteers or for the charity as a whole?
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Yeah, well, I think the absolute foundation of less than one, Scotland is the realisation and the value of that listening is so important.
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That to that, actually, everybody needs to talk, everybody has a story to tell.
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And as you've said, yourself, and often people have got concerns. And they need to find a way of expressing those, they need to know that their story is really important and worth listening to. So that's the kind of underlying sort of ethos behind this and while Scotland that everybody needs to talk, and especially actually now in this time, after all we've been through with COVID, there's, there is a rise in mental health challenges and well being. And so I think, listen, while Scotland is seeking to respond to that often unheard cry, could you just listen to me and listening in a way that is authentic and real, that really, really values the person, whatever they say, is important, because it's important to them.
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And I think the belief that actually, for many people, if they just had somebody who would really listen to them, it may prevent their need for further specialist. You know, intervention. We know that kind of mental health services in Scotland are so overstretched, we read continually, like mental health challenges are at epidemic level. But the reality is what Listen, Scotland is seeking to do is to normalise the need to talk. So that's the sort of ethos behind Listen, Scotland. I don't know if you want to ask me any more about that. And and then I can explain what the scare is.
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Certainly pointed to lots of different things in there. But one thing that really resonated with me is that, that need that sort of unharmed cry about just listen to me. You know, so many times when people get to a crisis point is, I just want you to listen, I just want you to hear me, you know, and then we often think that we listen, but do we often hear people really well. And I think that's the difference in what you're trying to help people make that connection. And there is a real positive impact on mental resilience. Well, being in general, yes. When we feel heard, you know, I mean, a lot of times, when we feel heard, we, you know, we talk about it, and you know, when I feel heard in my workplace, I feel like things get better or when I feel heard at home, you know, so we often when people are suffering from wellbeing challenges, it's because they feel not recognised, not feel invisible.
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And I think this sort of listening, is that missing part of the conversation, you know, because we're, we're encouraging people talk more, talk more, talk more. That listening part, I think, is part of that conversation, and it's missed, I think, would you agree with that?
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I would really agree with that. And I think listening is not really understood and you've you've He kind of said that yourself that I think there's not enough emphasis on just listening, you know, people understand the professional intervention. I mean, I myself have been a professional counsellor, but actually, just listening is is a transferable life skill. And there's very little of it around, but it can be taught, you know, I often think about listening, really listening well, and I'll talk to you about the training that isn't, well, Scotland offers but the listening where you are 100% present with that person. And the question is, can you really listen, while you're also sending a text on your mobile, where you're reading your Facebook page, where you're, you know, we all feel we multitask.
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And we do that in everyday life.
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I think what I really appreciated when I did the Listen, while Scotland training was, you cannot multitask. And listen, it's about being 100% present, and even listening in a way where you're not focusing on your reply. Because that was something I found, I was often listening, but half of me was thinking how I was going to respond. Yeah. And therefore you're not actually listening.
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100%? Yeah,
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I think there's, there's a lot of famous quotes as well around that sort of listening for response, you know, a lot of leadership sort of teachings about that listening for a response as well. And, you know, we need to if we're really listening, like you say, we need to get away from that. And I was at a conference just a few days ago, and there was a sports psychologist there called Michael Caulfield, and he'd worked with some big names and football, and what he said he used to do, and one of his big things was talking and it really struck me because I knew I was having this conversation today.
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Sort of like, you know, things for well being was talking but also listening and, you know, had as a separate skill set and a separate thing to do, or well being. And I think that's really important that people are recognising that. And one of the things he said he used to do, as part of, you know, his team talks, was just take his dog to the football ground and just walk around with with whoever he was speaking to. And just listen, you know, he said, Just take the dog. And we would just talk and listen, you know, and it's just something that seems so simple and so basic. And I guess something that we all maybe think that we do well, yeah. But I think you know, having started looking at this more having met Linda and no, knowing a bit this conversation today, you know, I know that it's something I can get better at. So if someone was interested to come to say, Listen, well, because they've made that realisation for themselves. What sort of offering is there there for people? What sort of courses or training do you offer?
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Yeah, well listen to Scotland, they offer a training, there's a training process. And that training process is to give practical help. It includes practice, it's experiential learning, it can be delivered hybrid, so either online or face to face, that face to face is just picking up again now. And it's training for all ages. So there's training that's targeted for schools and young people to help schools become safe listening schools, at peer level training, but also training for adults, there's an option as you go through the training, you can choose to become a registered listener, and then offer services of what we call listening time for you one to one listening time in a safe space. But many people do the training for their own benefit to learn how to apply it in their own workplace. There's an initial training called Let's get listening, which is a short online training, this training is so accessible, and so applicable, it's very practical.
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And then, then you can go on and then do the next stage, which is the listen while workshop. And then you can move further and do what we call the advanced listening training. So as I say, all online, or face to face, and really what the training focuses on is helps you to understand the skills of listening and what real good listening is and what it's not to identify some of the obstacles like, Yeah, always thinking about your reply, or sometimes interrupting or even making the assumption that you understand the other person when none of us fully do. So. I think even making sure you don't bring your own story and your own experience into the listening so that it's practical skills that you can learn through the training courses. And as I say, you could choose them to go on yourself and be a trainer in your workplace or your school or your community. Or you could decide to become a Interested listeners. So those are the options. Or you can just use the training for your own life experience to use with your friends and family.
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Excellent. So it's it really sounds like there's something there for everybody.
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And something for people who maybe just want to get started and test pester a little bit in an online course. And I'm gonna mention the online course specifically, because as you know, I'm going through that at the moment, yes, I saw that I can write about this well, so that I can sort of give a user perspective so that people can see and understand I'm going to keep her diary of what my thoughts were before and afterwards just to see what I've learned and add that in. And also listeners, I'm going to mention just now I'm going to sponsor three places on that course also. And I'm going to ask you to email me with the word tartan. Because listen, well has their own tartan. If you're listening in and you're listening, well, you'll have heard that cue. And if you listen, and email me the word tartan, I will get you linked up with Linda and the lovely people aren't listening well, before place to try this course out for yourself as well would be in this as listened week, we will do what we can to get other people involved. So that's just a little bit off point. But in terms of the online course, so it is a fairly short course it's I think it's 10 hours of learning over six modules, isn't it? And covers, you know, everything from why you might want to start doing this all the way through to you know, what is less than and what you can do to be a better listener really, is that that's my understanding at the moment.
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Yeah, that's exactly it. And yeah, you can pace it, you can do it yourself, you actually, when you sign up for it's called, let's get listening, you actually have the opportunity to do it over three months if you want to, although most people do it in a much more focused time. But it's designed in such a way you can watch one of the sessions and then have time for your own personal reflection and learning. But you do need to complete the whole process, because then you'll get the maximum benefit from it, and you'll learn about yourself, and you'll you'll find you immediately can apply it. And then of course, if you enjoy that, then you can go on to do further training.
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Excellent. Well, I am very much looking forward to going through that process. And the results of that will be on my blog, which we will share during this week as well. And I will post the link for that in the show notes below people. So if you're listening to this, or if you're reading on the screen reader, the show notes will be at the bottom, and it'll have the link to my blog, which will have my experience of the let's get listening course. And that you can access from the website when the link for that will also be in the show notes. We've talked a little bit about the offering. And you know, what Listen, well is on a mission to do but in a general sense of people maybe looking to us and listening for their work. What can people do to gain skills?
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You know, I know it's going to be part of the courses and things but what can we generally do? If we want to learn to listen better?
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I think the training is absolutely essential, because it helps to give you real insights and practice. So I would really encourage people to look at the listening Scotland website that's www dot Listen, while scotland.org.uk There's lots of stories on there, the impact of the training and the impact of people of what it's felt like to be listened to. And I think just that gains insight, which is really helpful, you've mentioned and the online course or let's get listening online, I cannot recommend that too highly to you. And to all those who are listening to it have a great impact. And I think one of the things that's really important is the understanding, there's listening, and there's listening well, and everyone can learn to listen, whatever age, whatever your experience, it's never too late. It's never too early. And listening well is a transferable life skill. You know, I found myself when I did the training, I immediately began to use it in telephone conversations, when calls with friends with family.
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It really does change your own awareness, I became so aware of how often I interrupt because I try and finish somebody's sentence for them. And I also was really aware how much I love to solve people's problems. I want to try and fix I want to find a solution for them. And the realisation that if you listen to them, they can find their own solution, they can generate the options themselves.
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And that's so much more empowering that's so much more about enhancing their own mental and emotional resilience, you know and that realisation When that listening can be such a powerful contributor to our general well being at this time.
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So yeah, you can use your listening skills in everyday life and make a positive difference to someone's world somewhere.
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No, I mean, that's great. I think it's really important to notice as well that when we are listening, but perhaps not listening, as well, as we could, a lot of these things that we do are come from a good place, you know, we try and interrupt or because we're trying to be helpful, we're trying to help people fix the problems, because we genuinely want to help. But actually, sometimes the best thing that we can do for them is just to take a step back and just let them you know, let them be let them process and let them figure it out. And sometimes that may be that they need assistance. But you know, I think a lot of the times, it does come from within, you know, what, it's just, I've had some coaching sessions, and sometimes it is really powerful just to let someone go, you know, it's on you. I'm listening, I'm here, I'm hearing everything you're saying. And just that being able to process it all the way through for yourself, actually makes you realise sometimes what, what is at the core of the problem, sometimes it's not always just what we think it might be, you know, sometimes it's a little bit deeper. And actually, by having that space, and someone just to really listen, it really helps us to get to that point.
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So really understand that point of it. And I'm looking forward to being able to go through the training myself and understand where this you know, where I am falling down as, as our listener at the moment, I'm very conscious as well, I sometimes do interrupt, and I also try and finish people sentences also very similar to your Start experience. And again, it's always just from a place of trying to be helpful to offer advice or trying to comfort people, but actually, I can probably do more good if I just take a step back. So I'm really excited to find out why learn about myself in the process. And I'm sure there'll be probably things I'm not aware of yet as well. Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to that. So we're talking about listening.
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And you mentioned before as well about being quite complex, everybody's different as we are in our wonderful ways. Tell us a little bit more about that. What does that mean, in terms of the training? So if we have this training, obviously, it's accessible to everybody.
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Listening is a complex thing we've we've mentioned, how does that work then? So if the training is the same for everybody, how does it work? And how do we aren't able to understand those complexities within ourselves with a trading that is made for everybody?
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Yeah, well, I think there's a process in the training. So you've got the initial one, which you've signed up for, you're going to do and and then, you know, there's the next one. And then by the time we get to the advanced course, there's a lot more sort of self evaluation and self reflection and really going quite deep in your own journey. So there's a lot of practice where you as the trainee are talking about yourself to a trained listener.
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So you're really getting in touch with your own journey and what might be some of the trigger points or obstacles in your own story that might impact negatively actually on your listening. So that's part of the process of learning. Another really key thing that I think is important to understand in the Listening training that is the mascot and provide, we are not training people to be counsellors we are not training people to be therapists are very, very clear about this.
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We're just training and just listening. So part of this training, raises awareness of when somebody might raise an issue that you know, is beyond the scope of just listening. So there is clear training of when you need to point somebody for professional input, you know, intervention of, you know, a medical or you know, mental health practitioners or counselling. But listen, well training is just about listening, but includes understanding of the complexity of yeah, as you said, our makeup as human beings and it's the first step and whilst for a lot of people that is all their need, and it will empower them and help their own well being and generate solutions. Of course, there will be those that have more complex needs, and they will require further professional intervention and in the training, we don't address how to provide that that's from trained professionals, but we signpost we help people to Understand when they need to kind of press the button and say, further intervention is required. So it's really important, especially for your listeners who are professional people who, from my perspective, as a professional person, we all can benefit from this listening training. But there is such a need for professional intervention for a segment of people.
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Yeah, and for specific things as well that you don't be expected to be a specialist. And also, it's good to know that that's a really good point to make as well, because we're not expecting people to take on, you know, other people's feelings, emotions, he was listening, and then signposting to appropriate professional services when required. And I guess, is there some, obviously you're operating in across Scotland? So predominantly, your resources will be Scotland focused, I presume. But I guess you have partners or, you know, maybe an awareness of the types of services that are available in Scotland? Would that be right?
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Or
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Yes, yes, there's, there's a list of resources where people can be referred on to and all of the signposted to. And yes, it is a Scottish charity, although with the online training, people can access it from wherever, but in terms of the follow up resources that would be predominantly signposting for resources in Scotland. Yeah, that's great.
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And it's great to know that that sort of resource point is obvious. I'm based in Scotland, but you know, that is they are unavailable to people who are going through the training as a starting point, at least, you know, and I guess people may know of their own preferred services and their own areas as well, or charities or resources that they have used themselves that may be appropriate for whoever there was a time. So
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at mighty, we just worked me adding to and that all those who are trained trainers and listeners within Western, listen, Scotland, there's a sort of support framework around those people so that, you know, that it, there's a professionalism in the delivery of the training and listening that has, you know, supervision built into it, within the boundaries of what the just listening approach is, and all the training is CPD accredited as well, I should probably mention that for those for whom that is of interest.
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You know, that's really great to know as well, because I know certainly as professionals as well, which a lot of our listeners will be, that is an important thing. And we have to have CPD hours noted and things like that for professional bodies, and you know, maybe workplaces and things. So it's good to know that this is something that, you know, that could be attributed to that. Because, again, it's a really important career skill, as well, you know, in developing your career, if you're listening. Well, you talk we've talked a lot about in terms of well being but actually, in a career space, it's very important transferable skill, also, in being able to navigate the workplace, and to work middle colleagues who may be from different places with different experiences, you know, that there's a high likeliness that that is the case. So, you know, listen in the workplace is a really important thing, as well. So can we just talk about that for a little second, like so we've talked, I mean, obviously, mental well being and wellbeing in the workplace is important as well. So on that point, it covers us, but in terms of as a career skill, what would you see the benefit to people over? You know, listening well, as a career skill? What would you see the benefits of that?
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I think the benefits of listening well, for anybody but as a career skill, people to grow in their own self awareness is such an important skill. And in every career, every workplace environment, it's that ability to really respect every individual to recognise, everyone has their own story, everyone has their own circumstances. And people go through different seasons of life, you know, within the workplace to recognise that, yeah, just to recognise that person is a human being, and they're, they're working, but they've got maybe different things they're working through in their lives at different seasons. So just knowing that they can be listened to they can be heard, they can be respected, they can be real and authentic.
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I believe those are just life transforming values that enhance in a person's living and well being in the workplace.
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Absolutely. I agree. And I think one of the big things that we we miss you, I said it before, it's the missing piece in the conversation, you know, we're always telling people talk, talk, talk. We're not telling people listen, listen, listen and be a bit of both before we actually make progress. And I think for me, you know, we're talking a lot about mental well being but also what's big in workplaces, just known as diversity inclusion lists There's got to be part of that conversation, hasn't it?
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Because, yeah, we've talked about their understanding that we're all individual human beings with individual experiences and needs. Without listening, we're not doing that very well, are we?
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Absolutely not. And this and while Scotland's really committed to, you know, diversity and inclusivity, you know, this is for all people of all, whatever their situation, whatever their background, just being respectful, and showing the value of every person that they are important, their situation, whatever they say, is valuable and important for them. And that makes such a difference in terms of normalising that person's experience, and accepting them and enabling them to know that it's really okay to talk and whatever they say, they will not be judged, they will not be criticised, they will just be accepted and understood. And that's very powerful.
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Absolutely. And as a, I guess, as a person in a workplace, having a workplace that has a culture of that, listening of that, you know, awareness, that level of awareness, surely makes it a much better and more pleasant place to work as well. And just, you know, surely a place like that will have people who thrive, we can all rather than people who feel, you know, scared to come out are scared to talk about what is the experiencing? If we're all listening well, and we're all supporting each other. Really, it's a much better culture a better place to be.
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Yeah, I mean, you mentioned culture. And and right at the beginning, you said that the vision of Listen, while Scotland is to see a listening culture across Scotland, and I mentioned listening schools, you know, part of our passion as a charity is to see every school become a listening School, a school where it's safe to talk, and there are safe places to talk and safe people to talk to. And to see every workplace as having that listening culture, where it's safe to talk in a place where people will listen well, the change of culture, I believe it can happen, as we see Scotland as a nation of listeners, why not? Well,
00:32:28.799 --> 00:33:17.009
certainly sounds like a wonderful thing to be striving for. For sure, you know, and I believe with you as well, that can happen. I just think for me, I think a lot of people don't realise that that is the missing link. And certainly for me, until I came across this and had some self reflection on it, realise, you know, this is the missing link, who is who we're talking to people telling people talk more, talk more, talk more, but it just seems that we're talking and we're still up against some of the same challenges. And we are slowly making progress towards a better society and a best culture, but there is a missing piece for me. And I really do feel like there's this listening piece, I don't feel like it's landing, as well as it could be, because we've not learned how to listen well yet.
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:43.200
And I really do think this, if people get on board with this, and I really hope that they do, can really just make things better for so many people, you know, whether it's wellbeing wise, career wise, you know, a culture of inclusion wise, I just think there's so many good things that can come from the better listening, you know, across the board, in schools and workplaces. And, you know, I think this has got the potential to really just change the way we think about things. Yeah,
00:33:43.410 --> 00:34:02.430
I believe that too. And that's why I decided to volunteer my time is, you know, with this charity, and, you know, yeah, it's schools, it's workplaces, it's community, it's families to listening, and families. I think that's really important, you know, and among our friends, so it's at every, every sphere of society,
00:34:02.849 --> 00:34:36.809
absolutely can be applied anywhere. It really absolutely can. So, so listeners, you know, I want you to really engage with this if you can, like I said, we have the sponsor places for the training course. But I also hope you know, if you've thought that this might be useful that you will get in touch with listen well, Scotland. So, Linda, would you like to just recap us where the website is, and if you know if any of their social media platforms, listening well is on if you just name them and what we will do is we'll include those in the show notes so that you can just directly jump there if you want to find out more.
00:34:37.018 --> 00:34:39.179
Brilliant.
00:34:37.018 --> 00:34:45.119
Thanks, Anne. It's just been wonderful to meet you and talk.
00:34:39.208 --> 00:35:10.829
Yes, the website is www dot less than well scotland.org.uk And you will also find listen while Scotland on Facebook, on Twitter, and on Instagram. And if you go there you'll find details of the online course let's get listening, which is the entry point. And yeah, just as a as a final. Yeah, word.
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Everyone can learn to listen.
00:35:10.829 --> 00:35:25.528
Well, I really believe that. And let's get listening above the radar. And people realise that there's a lot more to listening than we think. But we can all be trained to listen. Well.
00:35:26.070 --> 00:35:28.380
That's excellent.
00:35:26.070 --> 00:35:41.070
Thank you so much for that. And if someone was looking to, to start this journey, and to listen well, and we trained to listen, well, what would be your top three tips or your top three points of what how they could get started? Well,
00:35:41.099 --> 00:36:21.420
I would suggest, first of all, and go to the website, or one of the social media pages, sign up to this, let's get listening online course it's so accessible, it will have such an impact that will be the great start to your listening journey. And then I guess a third tip is just to understand that you can learn to listen well. And as you learn the skills of listening, they can be transferable into every part of your life. And you can make a positive difference to someone somewhere, and you too, will find your own well being is enhanced.
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:27.329
Excellent, brilliant benefits for someone looking to get started on this.
00:36:24.389 --> 00:36:55.829
And I really hope that, you know, our listeners get involved in this project as well, because I think it's super important. I think if we're talking about conversations around mental health, mental wellbeing, inclusion, diversity, respect, fairness, listening needs to be and must be part of that conversation going forward. So Linda, I just want to thank you so much for your time and joining me today. You and the work of listen. Well, Scotland are both remarkable. And thank you for sharing those insights with us today.
00:36:56.369 --> 00:37:00.360
Thank you so much, Anna, for the and for the invitation. It's been a real joy.
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You're very welcome, listeners. If you are overcoming a challenge or moving towards your next one, please remember the determinator Collective is here for you.
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