How to Lead When Everyone Expects You to Fail | Ivan Dawes

WEBVTT
00:23.200 --> 00:26.640
Hey y'all, it's your girl Fi bringing you authentic conversation to
00:26.720 --> 00:30.080
feed your soul and make you whole. Welcome to another episode
00:30.320 --> 00:34.470
on Elevate. Where we talk about a little of this and a little of that.
00:38.670 --> 00:42.550
This season is centered around leadership,
00:42.830 --> 00:46.390
healing, and I would say policies.
00:46.510 --> 00:50.750
And I intentionally not say politics because of the divisiveness
00:51.550 --> 00:54.990
and the weight that comes with that,
00:55.150 --> 00:58.460
because how we show up how we lead
00:59.660 --> 01:03.420
and how we serve community matters. And if it never mattered
01:03.820 --> 01:07.180
before, it matters now more than ever. And so I have
01:07.680 --> 01:10.940
my brother with me today. I'm super excited to have him as my guest,
01:11.100 --> 01:14.620
Ivan Dawes. Anybody know him everywhere in Canada?
01:16.860 --> 01:20.540
Yo, welcome! Everybody know you,
01:20.780 --> 01:24.620
you're the man, um, an exceptional leader, a person
01:24.940 --> 01:28.810
who understand the difference between visibility and
01:29.050 --> 01:32.090
true leadership, uh, the person who is doing the work,
01:32.730 --> 01:36.250
the person who is creating a legacy and a roadmap and
01:36.330 --> 01:40.490
a footprint that Black people, anybody from any walks
01:40.990 --> 01:45.050
of life, can follow. Welcome, Ivan. Thank you so much.
01:45.550 --> 01:49.130
Yeah, thank you for that. Wow. Welcome.
01:50.090 --> 01:54.000
It's great to be here. Thank you. Um, you know, um, you invited
01:54.320 --> 01:57.760
me before, I was busy, I couldn't make it. Yes, I know,
01:58.320 --> 02:01.680
you're on high demand. As you know, everybody want
02:01.760 --> 02:05.040
a little piece of my time, but the good thing I didn't put you at
02:05.540 --> 02:06.080
the end of the line.
02:08.560 --> 02:10.560
Well, thank you so much. Welcome on Elevate.
02:11.280 --> 02:14.880
Elevate, um, Ivan, is a podcast where we keep it real,
02:15.040 --> 02:18.690
keep it raw, keep it authentic and respectful. A lot of
02:18.850 --> 02:22.050
times we cannot strive and we can't grow because
02:22.370 --> 02:25.890
too many things are sugarcoating. And I
02:25.970 --> 02:29.010
like to talk to people who are actually doing the work.
02:29.090 --> 02:32.610
There's a lot of laziness out there, a lot of talk, a lot of make,
02:33.010 --> 02:36.770
make show— what you call it— make, make— I don't remember what the word is.
02:36.850 --> 02:40.770
Like you said, make show leadership. Yeah, but I'm talking
02:41.170 --> 02:44.610
to you who have seen, done it all.
02:45.670 --> 02:48.950
So Ivan, I want to talk to you quickly, and I want to start off
02:49.110 --> 02:52.630
and I want to go right into it. Introduce yourself, tell the people that
02:52.870 --> 02:56.390
who you are. I know you are the first
02:56.950 --> 03:01.710
Black business representative on the, the UiPath.
03:03.510 --> 03:07.830
Um, you will tell everybody what that is and introduce yourself better.
03:07.910 --> 03:11.630
And this amazing man that I'm talking to was
03:11.790 --> 03:15.870
also a recipient of the Dr. Jean Augustine Community Builder Award.
03:16.110 --> 03:19.790
That matters because it's about people who are doing the work,
03:19.950 --> 03:23.950
um, and if, if anybody who is a great example of this is
03:24.110 --> 03:27.470
Ivan. So Ivan, please introduce yourself. Yeah, thank you.
03:27.550 --> 03:30.750
I'm Ivan Dawns. I'm the political director of
03:30.830 --> 03:33.710
the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades,
03:33.790 --> 03:37.390
IUPAT, DC 46. I started off
03:37.550 --> 03:41.320
as a drywall finisher and worked my way up As,
03:41.560 --> 03:45.000
as my sister just said, the first Black representative in Canada for the
03:45.080 --> 03:48.640
union, and now I serve as a political director.
03:49.720 --> 03:54.280
Thank you. Um, what kind of responsibility is
03:54.520 --> 03:58.200
laid on you? Because a lot of times we hear people talk
03:58.440 --> 04:02.200
about being the first. Sometimes it's a good and it's a bad,
04:02.360 --> 04:07.250
and a lot of times the action is focused on the first And
04:07.410 --> 04:11.250
we probably have a lot of firsts, but not a first who is actually bringing
04:11.810 --> 04:14.210
others along. So Ivan,
04:14.850 --> 04:18.450
what does that mean? What kind of responsibility does that place on you to
04:18.950 --> 04:21.010
be the first? It's, um,
04:23.810 --> 04:26.530
place a huge responsibility in being the first because one,
04:27.570 --> 04:31.010
you have a lot of eyes on you and
04:32.380 --> 04:35.180
When people look, look at you as a first, some— a lot of people,
04:36.220 --> 04:39.340
not everybody's in your corner. Some people looking for
04:39.420 --> 04:43.300
you to fail. Stop there for a minute.
04:44.700 --> 04:48.140
So Ivan, I ask you to pause there for a minute because
04:49.260 --> 04:52.300
I want you to repeat what you just said about a lot of people.
04:53.260 --> 04:56.540
When you're in there, it's not just all about celebrating
04:56.620 --> 05:00.070
you being there. Other people are actually looking for your
05:00.390 --> 05:02.990
failure, for your trip up. Yeah.
05:04.230 --> 05:07.670
Why did you say that? Put it this
05:07.750 --> 05:11.030
way, and I'm going to say speak from
05:11.350 --> 05:14.630
example, speak from experience on the job
05:14.870 --> 05:16.990
site as a tradesman.
05:19.350 --> 05:22.790
A lot of people think people like me don't belong in certain
05:23.190 --> 05:28.220
positions. And I'm saying it straight up,
05:28.720 --> 05:32.060
people see us sometimes as just like— when I started off with
05:32.560 --> 05:36.300
the company I worked with, a lot of people think that I was just there
05:37.260 --> 05:41.340
because the company is busy, and as soon as they get slow,
05:41.420 --> 05:45.260
I'm gonna get laid off. I work my way
05:45.500 --> 05:48.780
up till I start to run job. A lot of people did
05:48.860 --> 05:52.920
not like it. That they were in the company before me and telling me what
05:53.080 --> 05:55.240
to do. And that's,
05:55.880 --> 05:59.160
that's why it's up to us to show them that we belong. Yes.
05:59.720 --> 06:03.560
In those spaces. Yes. I always say that. So being
06:03.800 --> 06:07.400
the first, all eyes are on you. Some want you
06:07.480 --> 06:09.560
to fail, some want you to succeed.
06:10.600 --> 06:14.920
But the thing is, the egg is what you do to bring others with
06:15.080 --> 06:18.590
you. And that's why when I get into that space,
06:18.750 --> 06:24.110
I said, I'm not only going to show them that I belong here,
06:24.350 --> 06:27.870
but I'm going to kick it up another notch. I'm going to make a mark
06:29.230 --> 06:33.150
that for years to come, people will talk about
06:33.230 --> 06:37.230
it. And as a person who mentors many youths,
06:37.310 --> 06:41.230
I always tell them this: you have to move from resilience
06:42.350 --> 06:46.350
to brilliance and from smart to
06:46.510 --> 06:50.190
great. I just talk about the first part of it, the resilient.
06:50.350 --> 06:54.350
You show them that you belong in those space. Then move
06:54.510 --> 06:58.030
to brilliance is going to show them that you have
06:58.190 --> 07:01.230
idea to improve things. You are going to do some
07:01.470 --> 07:05.390
things that your name is going to be called in rooms
07:05.630 --> 07:08.680
and around table that you are not hot. Ah,
07:11.080 --> 07:14.520
so I believe it was Maya Angelou
07:14.600 --> 07:17.560
that says, don't pursue money,
07:18.760 --> 07:21.960
do what you love, and do it so well that people can't take
07:22.040 --> 07:25.480
their eyes off you. As you said that, that what came to me.
07:25.800 --> 07:28.840
Yes, because as you're saying, a lot of times we
07:28.920 --> 07:32.440
might go into spaces, Ivan, and we're like just showing da da da,
07:32.840 --> 07:36.050
but you gotta— people let people know you bring solution to
07:36.550 --> 07:39.970
the table, right? Not just good looks, not just the fact
07:40.050 --> 07:43.570
that you belong, but I bring solutions
07:43.890 --> 07:47.410
to problems that I can execute. Yes. Wow. And I can
07:47.570 --> 07:51.170
help you to elevate your business. You hold this space when you walk in.
07:52.210 --> 07:55.330
You're going to own it. You're going to let them talk about— when you leave,
07:55.490 --> 07:58.210
they must say— years to come, they must talk about you.
07:59.090 --> 08:02.610
And when they move— so there you move from resilience and you do the
08:02.690 --> 08:05.970
brilliance part, because every time you say you're going to do something that they know
08:06.470 --> 08:08.750
Oh, it's going to be done good. Oh, it's going to be great. That's going
08:08.830 --> 08:11.870
to be great because this guy is really brilliant.
08:12.590 --> 08:15.070
If they put you in that position to lead,
08:16.750 --> 08:20.190
you are going to be the best leader they have ever seen.
08:21.310 --> 08:24.670
And one may say, how is that possible? You don't have to be
08:25.170 --> 08:28.910
the smartest guy in the room to lead. Yes. Everybody have
08:28.990 --> 08:32.520
their strength and their weakness. But what you're going
08:33.020 --> 08:37.000
to do, you're going to put people around you to do the things that
08:37.160 --> 08:40.840
you are weak in doing. And then, because the team at first—
08:41.000 --> 08:44.360
the leadership is a team effort. Leadership is not about me. That's right.
08:44.520 --> 08:48.120
It's about all of us. Yes. So when I put people around me
08:49.320 --> 08:52.120
who are strong in the areas that I'm weak in, yes,
08:52.600 --> 08:55.960
guess what? We look good. Yes. And it's not even because you're weak,
08:56.040 --> 09:01.090
and it's just not your niche. It's just not your thing. That's not my passion.
09:01.250 --> 09:04.690
That's not what I'm built for. That's not my calling. But when we bring
09:04.930 --> 09:08.290
all this gifting— that's not my gifting. Yes. But when we bring all
09:08.370 --> 09:12.130
this gifting together, it takes a village. So let me go
09:12.290 --> 09:15.490
to this with you, with the leadership, because leadership is so important to me.
09:15.570 --> 09:18.690
Yes. Um, because anybody can lead, but not
09:19.010 --> 09:22.690
everybody is an effective leader. Exactly. And I, I believe,
09:23.010 --> 09:26.290
for me, a true leader is not just a title
09:27.170 --> 09:30.530
or a boss role to say I'm managing people,
09:30.690 --> 09:34.650
but it's that ability to allow others to rise,
09:35.170 --> 09:38.130
helping people to pull out their potential,
09:38.290 --> 09:41.730
just like you've just explained.
09:42.050 --> 09:44.490
So my question for you is this.
09:46.130 --> 09:48.810
We talk about it as I opened before.
09:49.730 --> 09:53.560
What then is the difference between visibility and
09:53.800 --> 09:57.320
true leadership? And a part 2 to that I'll ask you,
09:58.040 --> 10:00.480
depends on which one you want to answer first.
10:02.360 --> 10:06.200
Are we showing up enough, especially in the Black community?
10:06.280 --> 10:09.320
Are we showing up at the right time? Are we showing up with the
10:09.400 --> 10:11.560
right motive? How are we showing up with our leadership?
10:13.320 --> 10:16.760
Answer the first, um, the second one first. No, we're not showing up enough.
10:18.100 --> 10:21.940
Okay. First part, visible leader and
10:22.100 --> 10:25.620
true leadership. They both go together.
10:26.500 --> 10:27.940
You cannot have one without the other.
10:30.260 --> 10:33.860
Visible leader. Everyone can
10:34.020 --> 10:37.860
show up at event. Yes. Everyone can give big speech.
10:38.420 --> 10:41.300
Yes. And cut ribbons. Yes.
10:42.660 --> 10:45.780
And you, and you are everywhere.
10:46.100 --> 10:49.090
Yes. Yeah, that's good. You need to be everywhere.
10:50.370 --> 10:53.810
But when the camera goes out, what are you doing?
10:54.210 --> 10:57.250
What are you doing after that? Light,
10:57.650 --> 10:59.730
action. Yeah. What are you doing after that?
11:01.970 --> 11:05.810
Are you making decisions that is only when it's convenient?
11:06.370 --> 11:10.770
Yes. Are you holding
11:11.170 --> 11:14.950
people accountable? What changes have
11:15.110 --> 11:18.310
been made because you are at the table? Yes. Ah,
11:19.430 --> 11:23.590
pause this. So this is a little bit of patwa for you because
11:23.990 --> 11:27.590
me a Jamaican, my brother from Jamaica. Yeah, man,
11:27.910 --> 11:31.110
me too.
11:31.510 --> 11:35.590
What change happened because you were at the table? Yeah, because a
11:36.090 --> 11:39.710
lot of times, Ivan, we have a lot of award recipients We have a lot
11:39.790 --> 11:43.390
of the first to be, but zero change,
11:44.190 --> 11:48.310
zero legacy being transferred, zero impact.
11:48.750 --> 11:52.110
So when you say what change
11:52.510 --> 11:55.430
has happened because we're at the table,
11:55.710 --> 11:59.870
how can we as a community have an eye on that to measure that?
12:00.110 --> 12:03.710
You see, we as a community,
12:03.950 --> 12:07.630
we need to, we need to have to be
12:07.710 --> 12:12.390
vigilant in that. When you, you know what they need of your community.
12:13.070 --> 12:16.110
And that's what you're gonna bring forward. You're gonna say,
12:16.270 --> 12:20.030
okay, this is what is needed. Yes. Is you're not
12:20.110 --> 12:23.630
only gonna show up when there's a big Black Lives Matter protest like
12:23.790 --> 12:27.470
many organization I know. And because the camera is there, so they're
12:27.550 --> 12:30.990
there with their flag. Yes. You are gonna say, this is
12:31.150 --> 12:35.000
what changes. We need to see. And you're going to hold people accountable to
12:35.500 --> 12:38.840
us and, and, and that change too. Yes, but, but, but sometimes, Ivan,
12:38.920 --> 12:42.680
that's not easy to do though. That's not easy to do.
12:42.840 --> 12:47.320
So I want you to give us 3 basic things
12:47.560 --> 12:51.640
that we can start doing to keep people accountable.
12:51.880 --> 12:56.200
Why do I say that? Because sometimes,
12:56.680 --> 12:59.810
Ivan, you're in a role And you need to, you know what I'm saying,
12:59.890 --> 13:03.730
bread and butter. You need to pay your bills. You're intimidated
13:03.890 --> 13:07.170
to not being laid off or let go because you speak up to hold
13:07.330 --> 13:10.770
someone accountable. So what
13:10.850 --> 13:14.690
are 2 or 3 tips or strategies that
13:14.930 --> 13:18.370
we can use to hold people accountable even
13:18.770 --> 13:21.970
when we're shaking in our boots, even when
13:22.050 --> 13:25.730
it risks popularity, even when it risks our job?
13:26.570 --> 13:28.970
Or even when it risks relationship?
13:31.210 --> 13:34.330
See, um, accountability and conflict,
13:35.770 --> 13:38.970
it's something everybody want to stay away from. Can't do it,
13:39.930 --> 13:43.290
but it's important. Yes, for growth. It's very important.
13:43.690 --> 13:48.090
Yes. Accountability doesn't mean that you
13:48.250 --> 13:49.530
are just going to challenge people.
13:52.980 --> 13:55.140
It's the way in which it is done.
13:57.380 --> 14:00.900
A lot of us, we cannot seem judgmental
14:01.540 --> 14:05.380
when you're holding people accountable. Yes. You cannot seem judgmental. That's the
14:05.460 --> 14:08.820
first thing out there. Yes. You have to approach it.
14:09.140 --> 14:12.820
You have to approach it the right way. And sometimes
14:13.380 --> 14:17.220
what we do, we approach things with ego.
14:17.490 --> 14:21.570
Ah, and we wear our emotion on our shirt sleeve.
14:24.050 --> 14:27.570
And when you do that, you know what? Yes, people get
14:27.730 --> 14:30.930
defensive. Uh-huh. And there's no shutdown.
14:31.090 --> 14:34.370
Yes, because they're not push— they're not coming forward to hear it more. No,
14:34.690 --> 14:38.290
it's like, okay, okay. Yeah, I love that point that you mentioned so much because
14:39.410 --> 14:43.250
accountability says what you did or your
14:43.810 --> 14:48.300
behavior is causing harm.
14:48.580 --> 14:52.420
But shaming, like you said, based on a wrong approach, is saying
14:52.980 --> 14:56.260
you are the harm. And as you are the harm, and that's why,
14:56.760 --> 15:00.020
as you said, people are not leaning forward to learning more.
15:00.100 --> 15:03.940
It's like they shut down. So that alone
15:04.020 --> 15:07.540
is a billion-dollar advice and tip because it is
15:07.620 --> 15:11.860
so true, the approach. Yes. Yes. So carry on.
15:12.200 --> 15:15.400
And number 2, accountability have to be done
15:15.560 --> 15:19.240
with fairness. And when it's done with fairness, it's opened
15:19.560 --> 15:23.320
the door for wider conversation now. And more,
15:23.480 --> 15:27.320
you're gonna be able to discuss more complex issue.
15:28.680 --> 15:32.920
Yes. Right? Because that's what, that's what, that's what we need accountability
15:33.320 --> 15:36.440
for. Yes. Things that they would not have discussed with you, now they
15:36.520 --> 15:39.960
get more open, they're gonna need your idea and other stuff
15:40.120 --> 15:43.520
now because You approach Deborah, you don't
15:44.020 --> 15:47.440
seem judgmental. Yes, yes. But the
15:47.520 --> 15:51.120
third part of it now is the difficult part. That's the
15:51.200 --> 15:55.200
difficult part of it now. The third part is it
15:55.360 --> 15:59.680
takes maturity to
15:59.840 --> 16:03.680
separate personal feelings from
16:03.920 --> 16:07.600
real issues. We have to take ourselves out of it and say,
16:07.760 --> 16:11.580
this is the issue. That we need to solve and work on
16:11.660 --> 16:15.180
that issue. It's not about me, it's not about you, it's about the
16:15.420 --> 16:17.500
community. Ah, ah,
16:19.820 --> 16:23.340
guys, this is what I'm talking about, about keeping it real, keeping it
16:23.740 --> 16:27.180
authentic and respectful. Because Ivan,
16:27.980 --> 16:31.740
that's one of the greatest challenges we're having on all levels of
16:31.980 --> 16:36.370
government, every background leadership because ego
16:37.170 --> 16:39.010
is replacing purpose. Yes.
16:41.570 --> 16:44.050
And to your point, people are taking things too personal.
16:46.210 --> 16:49.330
If you come to me about something, there's no openness.
16:49.730 --> 16:53.170
And sometimes the approach might not be wrong, right? Say people just
16:53.670 --> 16:56.610
don't know how, and maybe they wait too long, they're over-frustrated,
16:56.850 --> 17:00.570
because it can happen. Yes, yes. You, you wait too long, you Now you're too
17:01.530 --> 17:04.530
upset. Now your delivery is off.
17:05.530 --> 17:09.290
But with that maturity that you talk about is where you can say,
17:09.450 --> 17:12.650
hey, if you want to back up a little bit, I don't like that approach.
17:12.730 --> 17:16.010
I don't like how you're coming at me, but I hear that you have something
17:16.170 --> 17:19.770
that we need to talk about. And this is what's
17:20.170 --> 17:23.610
missing, Ivan. So talk a little bit more about that maturity.
17:24.810 --> 17:28.280
You see, the problem is, uh, a lot of us We are not.
17:29.320 --> 17:32.440
We might think that being 50 and 60 means that we matured,
17:32.920 --> 17:36.120
but if you're not mentally mature, you're still not that mature. Yes.
17:37.320 --> 17:40.840
And being mature is to make sure that you know that the
17:40.920 --> 17:44.920
issue is bigger than, than, than all of us. It's not just
17:45.480 --> 17:49.320
about me. You see, one of the things people
17:50.520 --> 17:52.360
don't understand, even in leadership role,
17:54.900 --> 17:58.660
It's not everything about you. It's not
17:58.740 --> 18:01.700
everything is about you, even when it involves you. Yes,
18:02.180 --> 18:05.540
yes, yes. It may involve you, but it's not about you. Yes.
18:08.100 --> 18:11.220
So we have to learn to stop. We have to be mature enough, big enough
18:11.300 --> 18:14.100
to separate that. That is not just about me.
18:15.700 --> 18:19.300
Look at the bigger picture. What are we trying to achieve here?
18:20.200 --> 18:24.360
Am I trying to achieve something for myself? Am I trying to achieve something on
18:24.440 --> 18:28.040
a wider— in a wider terms? And that's all we have
18:28.120 --> 18:31.320
to— that's what I see we need to do. Ivan.
18:36.440 --> 18:40.040
Hey y'all, it's your girl Faith bringing you authentic conversation to feed
18:40.120 --> 18:43.560
your soul and make you whole. Welcome to another episode on
18:43.720 --> 18:47.320
Ella Faith where we talk about a little of this and a little of that.