Let Them Roam: Why Every Child Needs Nature

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Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
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host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
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in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition
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of The Educational Dilemma, we're talking about
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the importance of nature. Not just how it makes
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you feel good, but actually the science behind
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it. So join me and two leading educationists
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to talk all things nature. So welcome to this
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edition of The Educational Dilemma. And I am
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delighted to be joined by Adam Williams and Will
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Goldsmith. Quick disclaimer, no relation at all
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of mine. So it's always better to get that out
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because either people think that you're my brother,
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my father or my son. And I'm not quite sure which
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one I'm most insulted by. Anyway, I will let
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these wonderful gentlemen introduce themselves.
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Adam, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah.
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Hi, Emma. Yes, Adam Williams. I'm head of a school
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in North Hampshire. In fact, I live on a farm.
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the Wandsworth College, a 1 ,200 -acre farm,
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and I also play speed golf, which you should
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probably Google at some point. More of that and
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on. Indeed. And well. I'm Will Goldsmith. As
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Emma has said, no relation, although lots in
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common in other ways in terms of approaches to
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education. I'm the head of Bedale School, which
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is a 3 -18 school in the glorious South Downs
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National Park in East Hampshire. Wonderful. And
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I suppose if one thing about me maybe that you
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need to know is amongst many other things, I
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am an embroiderer. That's a very important point
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too. And I have seen some of this embroidery,
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which is very, very impressive. I have to admit
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to when I was thinking about the topic of this
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podcast, that actually it was inspired by Adam
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reading a book. Adam and I are on a committee
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together and he was reading this book called
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Good Nature, which is by Kathy Willis, which
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is talking about how to improve your health and
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happiness with nature, one simple step at a time.
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And as three educationists, I just wonder, sort
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of off the bat, what evidence do you actually
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think there is about the importance of nature
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in education? I mean, Adam, kick us off. What
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evidence is there that actually this actually
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is important? Yeah, I mean, there's got to be
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so much research that's been done over the years
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around the impact of nature. I mean, I think
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we know it innately in ourselves anyway, when
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you see children out and about compared to being
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at home on screens. But the research sits around,
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you know, how your nervous system responds, how
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calmness responds, how endorphins respond, and
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actually how general fitness, physiology and
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psychology. I mean, it's writ large. I think
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the challenge is that there's probably not enough
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research that has been done yet. But the research
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that has done all seems to be pointing into a
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really brilliant space. And gosh, it's the stuff
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your granny would have told you years ago. that
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really benefited. So lots in and around. And
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the more we can embrace it as schools and education,
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frankly, as a society, the better. Yeah, exactly.
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And I mean, Will, I always get the impression
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that your school was sort of designed around
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this kind of idea. Yeah, so Bedales has its roots
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in the arts and crafts tradition. And if you
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know anything about William Morris, you know
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anything about... the kind of 19th century reaction
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to kind of the early industrialization that happened
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in the UK, particularly, you know, ahead of lots
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of other countries, then you'll know that, you
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know, people realized, you know, a bit like with
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any kind of new advances in society, that there's
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an initial embrace to something. And then after
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a while, you start to see some of the downsides.
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And in the 19th century, people saw the downsides
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of rapid industrialization, pollution, and so
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on and so on. And that's one of the reasons.
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Many scholars would say the arts and crafts movement
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kind of arose. So yes, Beardhouse was deliberately
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sited on a farm. And while we're not an agricultural
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college, we're an academic school, at the same
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time, there was very much this idea that when
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we were founded, that our students would benefit
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from having hands -on direct contact with not
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only just the natural world in terms of a parkland,
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but also the natural world in terms of actively
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participating in food production. We're just
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at the tail end of lambing season here. And for
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the students who want to be vets or medics, that's
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really helpful. Witnessing birth. And we just
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found out actually the two of our cows also,
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we haven't had a calf for a long time. So we're
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very excited about that. And again, the experience
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medically that our students can get is extraordinary.
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But also for the ones who are not interested
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in medicine, just seeing the cycles of life and
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death. And unfortunately, we do have stillborn
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lambs every year. So, you know, some of those
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hard lessons are equally important alongside
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just, you know, seeing a lamb gambling around
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the field. That's pretty good for your levels
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of... life satisfaction, I can tell you. Oh,
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you know, every time I hear Will talking about
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it, it just does sound idyllic. But isn't it
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interesting that we talk about that being an
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ideal rather than something that actually we
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should frame our curriculum around? And I am
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interested about whether we need to be thinking
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about our curriculum differently in the sense
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of making sure there is more time for nature.
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I mean, Adam, do you think that's a realistic
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ambition that we should be looking towards? Yeah,
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I mean, I absolutely do. And not simply just
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the curriculum for the children, but for the
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staff and parents and the communities while having
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them all involved in that. I mean, like Will,
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the school here was originally an agricultural
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college and children learned to be farmers. and
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planted that the woodlands that are here as well
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with the bare hands are just amazing but yet
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to build that into a curriculum uh is is absolutely
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mission critical beyond simply just sitting under
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a canvas and learning some maths by a campfire
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well that's an element but it is um yeah understanding
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the rhythms and cycles of life that's absolutely
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key being immersed and helping them helping design
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their own green spaces um opening up landscapes
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and views and you can you can do that within
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um with children designing and campus master
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planning and helping schools. But also I think
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it's just crucial to have them being able to
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reflect back on what they have done and the impacts
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of that and seeing children just calm and settled
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in their environments is huge. So like all schools,
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I don't think it's that complicated to do. Even
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in, I previously worked in an inner city day
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school in central Glasgow and you were really
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working hard too to bring nature and landscape.
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into those sorts of spaces. It's a mindset philosophy
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rather than simply just being hemmed in by bricks.
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It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think there
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is a tendency to possibly think about spending
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time in nature as a leisure activity rather than
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a core learning activity. And I don't know, how
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do we make that pivot between leisure and core
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learning, Will? I mean, how do we kind of turn
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that dial? I mean, I think obviously every school
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would be in a different environment, you know,
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whether it be kind of out of my school, which
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is in a rural setting, or as he was alluding
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to inner city schools, I also trained in inner
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city London school. Fundamentally, you know,
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the air, even in the middle of a city, there
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are birds, there is air, and there will be at
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least some trees and plants. And it's amazing
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when you start looking down, there'll be insects.
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if you're in a city, there'll be rats very close
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to you as well. So there's quite a lot of nature
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when you look into it. There was that recent
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David Attenborough series on the BBC about urban
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nature. So you can definitely find a certain
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amount if you look. So again, as Adam was saying,
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it's a mindset. I do think that there are, I
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mean, there's been some recent sort of movements
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within curriculum, particularly you were talking
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about that in terms of forest school curriculum,
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the recent pilotage GCSE in natural history.
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Here at BDALS, we're just developing our own.
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BDALs assess courses which are covered to GCSEs
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in the sciences. And that allows us to bring
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in kind of certain aspects. I mean, in our context,
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as I said, we are very lucky, but we really make
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the most of that. So we, for example, have sonar
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machines to identify the different bat species
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that we have on our campus. We have five. I didn't
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know until recently that actually you can tell
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a different species of bat because they operate
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on different frequencies like radio stations.
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So we use that to do active scientific research.
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We do regular moth trapping. Humanely, we release
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them afterwards. And as a result of us not mowing
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large parts of our grounds and not using herbicides
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or pesticides, we now have 72 different species
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of moth. And again, all of that's done in terms
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of scientific research, which you bring into
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the curriculum. Now, there are some problems
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with sometimes curriculum, especially the senior
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level is quite rigid. But certainly at primary
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level, somewhere like the Dragon, for example,
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then you have so much freedom. And I know that
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you do things where there'll be pond dipping,
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there'll be accessing down to the river in Oxford.
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And as long as the teacher is empowered to seize
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opportunities, and it has enough flexibility
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to tailor the education they're delivering and
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working on with the children. to the environment
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and the opportunities they have, that's great.
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I think the other thing is just making sure that,
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especially when you're not in a rural environment,
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then there are regular field trips for lots of
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different subjects, whether that be for biology,
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whether that be for geography, or whether that
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be for writing poetry in English. There's an
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amazing organization called the Arvon Foundation
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that do wonderful rural retreats. And if you
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both come across the Merlin Bird app, I hope
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you have. Yep. Fantastic. On my phone. Likewise,
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it's just opened up. And because you listen to
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the research, humans respond best to birdsong.
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If you take birdsong and flowing water and wind
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through trees, right at the top is birdsong.
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Blackbirds especially. Then you get into running
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water, then you get into wind through trees.
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But being able to take out, which anyone can
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do, families and are at school. early morning
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dawn chorus walks, even in towns, urban areas.
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It works in different countries. That is utterly
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brilliant. And if you can then find, spin the
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other side of the day or start a bit earlier,
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teaching children and families and grownups and
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anyone really, how to tell the time and read
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the stars. connecting them to their environment
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and landscapes. And frankly, you know, once you've
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worked out how to tell the time using the North
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Star, I mean, Magellan, move over. You can go
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all over the world. It's just, you feel just
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so connected to the spaces that you're in if
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you can understand and unlock a little bit about
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what's going on there. I think that's, it's incumbent
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on all of us to find out and learn more about
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our ecosystems. That's so interesting, Adam.
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I mean, that is something that, you know, we
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have the, if you like, the real benefits with
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our school, the flexibility to be able to do
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that, don't we? I mean, is this something that
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you're incorporating into the curriculum or is
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this something that is just part of your community
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work, as it were, in a boarding environment?
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Yeah, so being built in from the bottom up, year
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seven, eight, especially into the curriculum
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now that sits within lessons, you know, like
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all schools wanted to try and redesign how we
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teach. And a little bit about what we teach,
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accepting that we're a bit hemmed in at points.
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But there was still some movement through that.
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But yeah, build that in. Children helping us
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build that in as well. Parents as well. I think
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in all schools, you know, parents have some really
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interesting experiences in their companies and
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their businesses. How can they help us with that
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too? One of the things we always want to do in
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these sessions is actually give parents some
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practical advice. And if a parent is looking
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for a school, what are the questions that they
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can ask to really help them understand whether
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this is something that the school values? It's
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really tricky. Who's going first? You can go,
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Will. You can go. You were looking thoughtful.
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Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's quite a
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broad question, the natural world. In some ways,
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you can ask, whether it's the admissions department
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or the headteacher or any other member of staff,
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the amount of, I mean, the questions you're asking
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now, which is how much is it part of your curriculum?
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How much does it form part of your community
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life? Those are the questions you've already
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modeled. They're actually really good questions.
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I think when you're on the tour, because normally
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you'll be touring a school, it's looking around.
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And actually, there should be signs. You should
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be able to see them quite easily. to see whether
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or not there's education happening on the campus,
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particularly in terms of the natural world. So
00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:56.330
you might be looking for a greenhouse. You would
00:12:56.330 --> 00:12:58.149
be looking for a pond. You'd be looking for,
00:12:58.149 --> 00:13:02.149
you know, beehives. So, yeah, that's one thing
00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:04.570
we have. Or outdoor classrooms along with indoor
00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:08.309
classrooms. A lot of it actually is about scanning
00:13:08.309 --> 00:13:10.610
the spaces because... so much of the natural
00:13:10.610 --> 00:13:12.590
world will be there. Then I suppose, you know,
00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:14.289
if you're getting down to brass tacks, then,
00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:16.029
you know, talk to departments where you're going
00:13:16.029 --> 00:13:18.529
to be particularly connected to science and nature,
00:13:18.649 --> 00:13:20.470
i .e. the science department and the geography
00:13:20.470 --> 00:13:23.509
department. So again, you know, if you're on
00:13:23.509 --> 00:13:25.289
a tour and you bump into someone from those departments,
00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:27.789
you can ask them. Or if you're being toured by
00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:30.710
students, you know, ask them what the natural
00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:32.470
world means to them and you're going to get some
00:13:32.470 --> 00:13:34.610
brilliant answers from young people if you get
00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:36.490
to interact with them. I mean, Adam, anything
00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:38.950
to add to that when you're the advice to parents
00:13:38.950 --> 00:13:41.450
about what the questions to ask in this area?
00:13:42.889 --> 00:13:45.409
So, I mean, I totally agree with what Saul said
00:13:45.409 --> 00:13:47.870
spot on. There would just be a couple of bits
00:13:47.870 --> 00:13:51.110
for me. If I'm looking around, I want to know
00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:53.929
where children, the spaces that children can
00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.409
be. Where do they, it's like cats finding sunny
00:13:56.409 --> 00:14:00.350
spots in houses. What places and spaces have
00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:03.070
schools created or the children created where
00:14:03.070 --> 00:14:05.309
children feel comfortable and a place to be?
00:14:05.429 --> 00:14:07.470
And quite often you find that's connected to
00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:12.009
a safe space, but a really well -designed, really
00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:15.169
good space there. I also want to know, you can
00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:16.669
also see at break times and lunch times, where
00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:19.919
are they playing? How is that play manifesting
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.279
itself? Also, where do they go when it's raining,
00:14:22.419 --> 00:14:24.340
by the way? That's always an interesting question.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.919
And I suppose that last bit, I'm always wanting
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.279
to ask about where are the rabbit holes? How
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.299
are we to inspire children to get into rabbit
00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:35.799
holes, literal and metaphorical, but probably
00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.059
metaphorical mostly, around being curious about
00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:43.389
the spaces around them? And it's not simply just
00:14:43.389 --> 00:14:45.049
outside spaces. It's just educational spaces
00:14:45.049 --> 00:14:47.889
as well. But yeah, that's it. But look for the
00:14:47.889 --> 00:14:50.610
sunny spots in school. What do they look like?
00:14:50.649 --> 00:14:53.009
What do they feel like? And that's a good point,
00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:55.009
isn't it? Because I think with parents, when
00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:57.769
they are contemplating, you know, allowing their
00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:00.289
children to have time and space in the natural
00:15:00.289 --> 00:15:03.269
world. Where do we sit on risk? Because, you
00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:06.169
know, I know I'm seeing my childhood through
00:15:06.169 --> 00:15:08.889
rose -tinted glasses, but I do literally remember
00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:12.149
getting lost and going around, poking around
00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:13.769
with a stick, coming back with all sorts of things
00:15:13.769 --> 00:15:19.059
in my bag. And how can we manage those risks
00:15:19.059 --> 00:15:20.860
with children, particularly smaller children,
00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:23.980
allowing them that freedom in the wild, as it
00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.059
were, giving them those opportunities to be curious,
00:15:27.139 --> 00:15:29.539
whilst also managing our own anxiety about letting
00:15:29.539 --> 00:15:31.740
them do that? I mean, Will, what are your thoughts?
00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:34.759
You've got younger ones at your school. I mean,
00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:37.049
I think, you know, again. We're blessed because
00:15:37.049 --> 00:15:39.909
we've got a larger campus. And so we have wild
00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:43.850
spaces on our campus and we know and can control
00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:46.029
the kind of boundaries literally and sort of
00:15:46.029 --> 00:15:50.710
more figuratively around those spaces. So it
00:15:50.710 --> 00:15:52.850
is very much about being able to take children
00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:54.529
to places which you've done a good recce of.
00:15:55.230 --> 00:15:57.509
And so as educators, I mean, sometimes there
00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:00.440
is that fear there. But ultimately, there is
00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:01.980
also a danger in not taking children to those
00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:04.679
spaces, which then has a negative impact on mental
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.799
health and educational outcomes, which a lot
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:08.580
of the studies tell us. So in some ways, you
00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:09.960
also got to think about the risk of not doing
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.059
that when you're maybe hesitating about having
00:16:13.059 --> 00:16:14.779
to go through what is a certain amount of paperwork.
00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:17.259
And sometimes it feels excessively onerous, but
00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:19.360
sometimes it's just what's sensible planning.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.379
I mean, you know, I'm someone who's been on trips
00:16:21.379 --> 00:16:24.259
through like the South Luangwa National Park
00:16:24.259 --> 00:16:29.039
in Zambia with teenage students. This was about
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.559
10 years ago, but it was still very much the
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.320
same kind of regulatory framework. And some of
00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.960
the hazards there were venomous snakes, crocodiles,
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:42.059
lions, elephants. And we walked through those
00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.600
with appropriate kind of risk assessments and
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.200
then dynamic risk assessments. But we did that.
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.059
I've done the Andes with another school group.
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.559
I've done the foothills of Thai jungles. You
00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.000
can do it. It's just, I think, particularly important
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.200
for people like the three of us as leaders to
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.019
champion that and obviously to support staff
00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:06.819
doing that, but also to say, come on, let's do
00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:09.880
that because we know what that can do in terms
00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.619
of the positive benefits. I mean, it's incumbent
00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:15.740
on us, isn't it? We must, just must, must, must
00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:18.839
generate this lifelong love for the children,
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.000
for them to generate that lifelong love of fitness,
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.200
health and adventure. And we are, as a species,
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.200
we are an adventurous species. You can't tie
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.059
the Homo sapiens down for too long. So I think
00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.500
that is absolutely incumbent on us. And risk
00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:36.640
is often easily managed with sort of the right
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.920
attention to detail. And we need a bit of risk
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.140
in our lives, genuinely. But you can do that
00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:45.740
in urban areas, in rural areas, UK -based, beyond.
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.440
You can get to some pretty remote places in the
00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.160
UK. without, in a not that difficult a way. But
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.779
yeah, we've got to role model it and have that
00:17:55.779 --> 00:17:59.119
sense of it. I love, you know, we often tease
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.279
our parents here and parents of any school I've
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.720
worked in, said if I catch you all mooching off
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.900
down to North Cornwall every year to go to the
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.240
same place on holiday, it's not, I mean, it's
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:11.640
beautiful down there, don't get me wrong, but
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.779
we must role model to our children that there
00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:15.400
are different adventures to be had in the world.
00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:18.170
And that's that's the magic of what we get to
00:18:18.170 --> 00:18:20.730
do in our roles, actually. I agree. And the importance
00:18:20.730 --> 00:18:22.809
of that travel. But isn't it interesting that
00:18:22.809 --> 00:18:25.230
the most recent David Attenborough documentary
00:18:25.230 --> 00:18:27.490
is about our backyard? And actually, I thought
00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:30.250
that that was a brilliant new addition because
00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:32.069
we're so used to him going off to these places
00:18:32.069 --> 00:18:34.910
that we wouldn't necessarily be able to see.
00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:37.230
Actually, him talking about the robin in your
00:18:37.230 --> 00:18:39.549
backyard is, I think, been really inspired for
00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:42.369
this new addition. I mean, we again at the Dragon,
00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:46.049
you know, we have a river. on our boundary. And
00:18:46.049 --> 00:18:49.049
I know that once we were inspected and everyone
00:18:49.049 --> 00:18:50.849
wanted to see the risk assessments and should
00:18:50.849 --> 00:18:53.650
we be bounding it? Well, actually, no. My point
00:18:53.650 --> 00:18:56.150
was, it's about education. Children should be
00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:59.029
able to walk safely next to a river. And that's
00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:02.390
our duty to make sure that they feel safe. But
00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:04.450
what I love is that they're curious about it.
00:19:04.490 --> 00:19:06.390
They want to know what's growing next to it.
00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.970
They want to know what's swimming in it. And
00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.910
also why it's so murky at the moment. And we
00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:16.990
have a real movement. in our pupil body. They're
00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:19.410
really crossed that the river is murky and it's
00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:23.230
not clear. So it's generated that kind of real
00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:25.309
sense of these children who want to do something
00:19:25.309 --> 00:19:29.650
in the future to make a difference. I mean, interestingly,
00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:33.940
you're both involved with older children. Are
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.859
you seeing young people wanting to follow courses
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:41.799
or go into careers that are looking at either
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.940
nature or sustainability? Is that coming through
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:47.700
or are we still not getting enough children interested?
00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:51.460
Will, you're nodding there. Yeah, definitely,
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.460
definitely. I mean, we have students who pursue
00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:57.559
all sorts of different pathways, but I think
00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.019
particularly the ones for whom science is a really
00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:02.910
kind of strong passion. then I would say there's
00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:07.970
a real strong kind of focus on particularly kind
00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:12.750
of biological sciences. And, you know, I think
00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:15.630
sometimes it's quite early on to focus and specialise
00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:19.410
in sustainability, 18 plus. And in some ways,
00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:21.210
I would probably encourage young people to still
00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:23.609
think a bit broader. And our education system,
00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:25.490
certainly in terms of higher education system,
00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:27.970
often allows for that breadth because they do
00:20:27.970 --> 00:20:29.390
have to specialise quite early in comparison
00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:32.519
with other countries. But I think another interesting
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.099
place that you see that is with the extended
00:20:35.099 --> 00:20:37.960
project qualification, which is a 16 plus qualification.
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.160
There are equivalents further down. I know a
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.019
lot of prep schools do similar sort of things
00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:45.460
in terms of projects where students get to choose
00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.980
their own topic. So I'm just thinking, for example,
00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:50.660
of a student who left us a couple of years ago.
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.420
He basically mapped all the trees on the site
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:56.720
and there are hundreds on this site and then
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.299
calculated the carbon sequestration. within those
00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:02.940
trees and then compared that with our carbon
00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:04.460
footprint as a school because we all publish
00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.740
that now as organizations and then worked out
00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:08.140
how many more trees we'd have to plant on the
00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:11.559
campus in order to offset that. Now that's a
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.180
good challenge for me and I have to say if he's
00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:15.539
listening then I've not yet met his challenge
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.700
but if he's worrying that I've forgotten about
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.640
that I haven't because I went to his EPQ presentation
00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:21.099
so you have to do a presentation at the end of
00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:23.720
it and it was so good that he then came and did
00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.539
it to the senior team and so tree planting and
00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:28.920
reducing our carbon footprint is something which
00:21:29.259 --> 00:21:34.140
has led to strategic changes as a result of student
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.259
input and student studies. Amazing. What about
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:40.920
you, Adam? What are you seeing? Yeah, we are
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.920
actually as the sort of more children, not a
00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.180
huge number, but an ever -growing number getting
00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.779
involved in. a range of sort of green enterprise,
00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:52.700
green tech, and the engineering side as well.
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.799
I think there are lots of opportunities in that
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.000
space. Agritech as well. And that's also looking
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.160
to sort of food shortages or create food opportunities
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.359
in the world. Environmental science is a very
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.559
popular A -level these days here now. That's
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.640
relatively new in, which has been fantastic.
00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.579
And children creating their own businesses in
00:22:13.579 --> 00:22:15.720
and around these spaces. Lots, lots and lots
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.660
and lots in there. And I think sort of leading
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.279
to when children start that call to arms for
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.500
the bigger piece, looking at things like the
00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:25.700
United Nations, the Sustainable Development Goals,
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:30.819
those 17 totemic, really key goals. We need more
00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:32.400
and more children wanting to get into one of
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.980
those spaces too. So yes, it's environment to
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:37.279
a point, but actually it's the built environment,
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.819
it's the human environment, the physical environment.
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.619
There's so much opportunity in that space, even
00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:46.400
to the extent that our pupils... We've been looking
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.920
at creating measurements and taking our farm,
00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:52.160
for example, and the farmer here, we no longer
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.539
plough, we direct drill, we don't disturb the
00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:58.319
soil, seeing how the biota has bloomed beyond
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.980
that. Environmental stewardship margins, wildflower
00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.859
meadows, making your own honey and making your
00:23:03.859 --> 00:23:06.000
own wood chip as well from the woods. There's
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.319
some really fantastic things, not just because
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.299
it's nice to do, but seeing the genuine impact
00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:17.589
and how ecosystems respond to that. So it's fascinating.
00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:20.210
And you can do the same in urban areas, just
00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:22.490
looking at slightly different ways of being.
00:23:22.769 --> 00:23:25.130
Because that is an interesting thing, isn't it,
00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:27.430
in terms of sort of the equity in education about
00:23:27.430 --> 00:23:29.829
children who are living in an urban environment
00:23:29.829 --> 00:23:33.069
and their access to nature. And it's, I mean,
00:23:33.150 --> 00:23:35.990
you know, you've both worked in inner cities.
00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:39.589
How do you manage that to ensure that the children
00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:42.289
have got exposure to the likes of things that
00:23:42.289 --> 00:23:46.920
we've been talking about? Most cities in Britain,
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:50.099
you are never more than about 15 minutes from
00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:52.500
green space and parks, realistically. I mean,
00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.720
certainly London's remarkable at that, actually.
00:23:54.940 --> 00:23:57.519
You know, I think 48 % of the Greater Lingerie
00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:59.160
is green, actually, when you look at the data
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.740
on it. It's fantastic. I mean, those town planners
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:03.980
did a pretty good job a few years ago. They just
00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:07.859
got a whole good fight for the green belt. So
00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:09.819
I think there are always opportunities to do
00:24:09.819 --> 00:24:12.220
that, even whether it's roof gardens, even whether
00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:15.980
it's park boxes. Yeah, it's pretty rare where
00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.299
you can't get somewhere. And actually, you know,
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:20.359
schools partnering up all over the place. We
00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.259
certainly see a lot of partnerships with, you
00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:24.700
know, schools from urban areas coming out to
00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:27.420
visit us, spend time here. We do the same back
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:29.619
in urban areas, actually, educating children
00:24:29.619 --> 00:24:32.779
just in those spaces. So it flings both ways.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.339
You definitely see maybe demographic shifts in
00:24:36.339 --> 00:24:39.059
terms of families with younger children will
00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:42.029
often maybe start in the city. But then as children
00:24:42.029 --> 00:24:44.789
grow older, you'll often see a kind of movement
00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:46.549
out. And this is both state and independent.
00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:49.150
Obviously, for some families, that's not possible
00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:54.490
in terms of that financial flexibility. But for
00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:58.130
many, it is. And as Adam says, it's a two -way
00:24:58.130 --> 00:24:59.849
traffic because one can benefit both from an
00:24:59.849 --> 00:25:02.829
urban as well as a rural environment. I mean,
00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:05.369
I was doing some research on this before we spoke
00:25:05.369 --> 00:25:08.970
today. And about 85 % of the population in the
00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:13.559
UK live in an urban area. But that said, less
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.779
than 10 % of the land mass in the UK is urban
00:25:16.779 --> 00:25:20.640
area. So, you know, it's a small crowded island.
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:22.880
And yes, once you're out of the city, that doesn't
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.700
mean it's just complete kind of wild space. A
00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:28.059
lot of it is agricultural and so on and so on.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:30.940
But I think sometimes it's just about maybe zooming
00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:33.500
in. So, you know, you can look at the big picture
00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:35.720
and compare, for example, you know, some of the
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.900
countries which have the highest levels of forestation,
00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:40.920
somewhere like Finland or Japan, so Finland's
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:45.099
75%. Japan has two -thirds forested land, particularly
00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:46.599
because it's mountainous. You know, that has
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.400
a really positive impact on the populations there,
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.559
even if Japan's particularly urbanized. But at
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.339
the same time, I think if you zoom in, you know,
00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:57.099
even just to, you know, what's on the ground
00:25:57.099 --> 00:26:01.099
in a square meter. um or or the verges of you
00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:03.420
know of the roads you know wherever you're looking
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:05.299
you can start i mean i was at the houses of parliament
00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:07.660
recently and they've got peregrine falcons um
00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:10.299
keeping down the pigeon population yeah and and
00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:12.279
if you look up and you see it i mean it's extraordinary
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:14.440
and you know the houses of parliament are basically
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.220
like a big cliff uh very similar to a craddy
00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:18.900
cliff you know with all the gothic filigree and
00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.359
stuff and so just seeing and that was on the
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:23.299
you know that was on the bbc program as well
00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:25.700
but you know i've seen it myself um having having
00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:29.529
seen it on the tv then yeah It's about that lens.
00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:32.450
It's a way of thinking because the natural world
00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:35.829
is everywhere, even in the most man -made of
00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:38.190
environments. That's so interesting, isn't it?
00:26:38.349 --> 00:26:41.750
Can we just talk about mental health? Because
00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:44.609
we've talked a lot about how it should be part
00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:46.109
of the curriculum, can be part of the curriculum.
00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:49.730
And I think we're all increasingly aware that
00:26:49.730 --> 00:26:52.009
spending time in nature is good for everybody's
00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:55.940
mental health. Going back to the very smallest
00:26:55.940 --> 00:26:58.799
of children and actually making sure that it's
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:00.480
preventative rather than us always reacting,
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.059
oh, you're a bit stressed, let's go out into
00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:04.359
nature. I'd love to know your thoughts about
00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:08.880
how we can ensure that we are creating an environment
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.079
where our children have that realisation very
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.319
early on in their development. I mean, Will,
00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:19.839
how can we ensure that, you know, we're making
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:21.759
children aware of the importance of this in their
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.779
mental health? So I think it is about being deliberate
00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.140
as adults, whether we're parents or whether we're
00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:29.660
educators. So it is about looking for opportunities
00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:32.400
where we're deliberately placing young people
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.259
either in a particularly kind of nature -driven
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:39.359
environment, whether that be a wood or by a river
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:42.900
or so on, so on, or whether it's about kind of
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:45.099
helping them see the world through that particular
00:27:45.099 --> 00:27:48.339
lens. But it's interesting, actually, and there
00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:50.519
was a University of Glasgow study just from 2024,
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:54.819
which said that just 60 minutes per day, which
00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:58.259
are spent in some kind of nature -driven environment,
00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:02.420
will reduce mental health issues by 50%. Now,
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:03.839
if you think about school day, obviously that's
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.440
60 minutes, but if you include playtime and one
00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.819
activity in a lesson, then you've got that covered
00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:11.339
if you're going outside the classroom. And obviously
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.079
school design is an important part of this. We
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.200
sometimes see schools which are really well -designed
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.359
that have doors that open out, especially at
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.119
a primary level. into an outside space. That's
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.099
more challenging, obviously, in an urban environment.
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:25.359
But actually, you know, there are some schools
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.940
which are poorly designed. And so one of the
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.759
things as a society we need to be thinking about
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:32.319
on lots of different levels, one from a sustainability
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:34.279
and an energy efficiency level and all the rest
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.539
of it, but also in terms of the nature -driven
00:28:37.539 --> 00:28:41.960
design will pay off hugely. I think as a family,
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.480
it's about deliberately saying, okay, in a weekend
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.299
or, you know, in a holiday, When are we doing
00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:50.079
something which connects with the natural world?
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.220
When are we going pondering? When are we going
00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:55.539
to play in the rock pools by the sea or whatever?
00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.759
And you don't have to go far to find those in
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:02.240
the UK. We are blessed with lots of natural spaces.
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:05.900
And weirdly, we're a society that really values
00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.440
that, even if we're highly urbanized. And I think
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.619
that's one of the strengths of the UK is that
00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:15.049
the National Trust is one of the... the most
00:29:15.049 --> 00:29:18.430
prized institutions in our country, precisely
00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:20.069
because it does protect a lot of the natural
00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:22.769
world. Or even something as simple as growing
00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:25.069
your own seed. So where I'm sitting now, I'm
00:29:25.069 --> 00:29:26.869
actually in my house because we have some tech
00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:30.160
problems. I won't show you, but there's loads
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.680
of seedlings we're growing. We're doing a plant
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.599
sale for the village where we live. And every
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:36.799
day I walk past those seeds and they were germed.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.559
We planted them about a week ago. And every day
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.079
I check in on their growth. And it's, well, some
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:43.460
of them grow and some of them don't. And, you
00:29:43.460 --> 00:29:46.160
know, that's also exciting. But just having some
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.039
seedlings on the windowsill is great because
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.940
suddenly your child is thinking about the natural
00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.470
world on a daily basis. Good point. Adam? Yeah,
00:29:56.529 --> 00:29:59.450
I mean, just a few thoughts really. And you can
00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:00.829
do some really cool experiments with actually
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:03.650
children, how they feel as they move slightly
00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:06.130
older and sort of seeing heart rates and measuring
00:30:06.130 --> 00:30:08.529
that. I mean, if you look at the research, green
00:30:08.529 --> 00:30:10.970
is the colour. Good to see Emma, you're wearing
00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:14.029
a green today to keep us both really calm, all
00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:16.630
of us really calm on this podcast. But when you
00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:20.309
look, greens and yellows are the most magical
00:30:20.309 --> 00:30:23.509
two colours. for calming physiological responses,
00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:26.670
variegated greens in planting. When you look
00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:29.309
at flowers and bringing those in, and P .S. plastic
00:30:29.309 --> 00:30:31.450
plants don't work when you look at the research
00:30:31.450 --> 00:30:33.430
on it, they're just straight up. But interestingly,
00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:36.329
screensavers, if you've got like a little woodland
00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:38.930
with a bit of a screensave, magical. We've just
00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:41.130
built our library on the second floor up in the
00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:44.529
canopy of a set of trees, just bathing it with
00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:46.390
green light, spilling green light in is magical.
00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:48.789
But getting the colour schemes right there, getting
00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:50.529
the smells right. When you look at the research
00:30:50.529 --> 00:30:54.289
around pine, I mean, that oil, magical. Get that
00:30:54.289 --> 00:30:58.910
in citrus, great for creativity. Conifers, especially
00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:02.509
that pine, reduces inflammation, calms the emotional
00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:05.230
state. That's all magical. Cypress, really good
00:31:05.230 --> 00:31:08.210
for the same. But other things, lavender, getting
00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:09.809
that into spaces where you want people to be
00:31:09.809 --> 00:31:11.950
calmer. I mean, I'm just taking you through a
00:31:11.950 --> 00:31:14.509
homeopathy thing here. Here we go. But rosemary
00:31:14.509 --> 00:31:17.410
for a work and alert. Mint, alertness and memory.
00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:19.970
We're trying, certainly in schools, just so simple
00:31:19.970 --> 00:31:24.470
to do this. And there's so much in that space.
00:31:24.569 --> 00:31:25.849
And I suppose the last bit, really, different
00:31:25.849 --> 00:31:28.630
materials and textiles. And we're not going to
00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:30.490
go down the tree -hugging vibe entirely here.
00:31:30.809 --> 00:31:33.730
But softwoods, having to build some of that into
00:31:33.730 --> 00:31:36.130
classes rather than having solid stone and concrete
00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.470
is so beneficial. And then, you know, you can
00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:41.130
explain that to children. They can see it. They
00:31:41.130 --> 00:31:42.809
can sense it. They can do some research on themselves
00:31:42.809 --> 00:31:46.150
to get a sense of that. And I suppose the final
00:31:46.150 --> 00:31:49.220
bit for me is around... Helping children, actually
00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:52.000
what Cathy Willister described as fractal landscapes.
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.059
The brain loves seeing things that divide and
00:31:55.059 --> 00:31:57.839
divide and divide and divide. And that goes back
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:00.299
to way back when, sort of, together in Neolithic
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.359
times when we were avoiding being eaten by saber
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:05.180
-toothed tigers. Being able to see out into landscapes
00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:08.180
and see how they connect. There's so many things
00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:10.339
that we can really simply do. Helping children
00:32:10.339 --> 00:32:14.799
understand that. But I'd really just... Interesting,
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.160
isn't it? Because it used to be that in primary
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.319
schools, particularly, we would go for, you know,
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:22.099
really bright colours, lots of primary school
00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:24.119
colours and what have you. And in recent times,
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.640
we've all scaled back. totally um in terms of
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.460
having you know hessian on the walls um very
00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:34.579
calm colors and it's interesting it's taken us
00:32:34.579 --> 00:32:36.559
so long to realize that and quite rightly having
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.180
having living breathing plants but you're absolutely
00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:42.220
right even as adults you know my morning ritual
00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:44.460
is to go out into the garden look at my sweet
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:47.539
peas how are they doing you know tweaking them
00:32:47.539 --> 00:32:50.420
you know and seeing that change every time and
00:32:50.420 --> 00:32:53.559
i do I do think, you know, we're seeing it in
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:55.759
our schools and probably you are as well, you
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.619
know, the number of children who are neurodivergent.
00:33:00.619 --> 00:33:05.059
And I really do think that kind of nature and
00:33:05.059 --> 00:33:07.819
environment are so critical in supporting those
00:33:07.819 --> 00:33:09.740
children and their families. And I don't know
00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:12.619
whether you've experienced this in school, Will,
00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:16.960
where it's had a positive effect. I mean, because
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.920
we're a boarding school, we have people who come
00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:20.900
from all around the world, but also around the
00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:23.900
UK. We have quite a few London families. And
00:33:23.900 --> 00:33:27.279
the contrast there, often when we have visitors
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.339
who are looking, especially prospective parents,
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.519
but also educators as well, they really notice
00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.319
the way that there's a calmness which comes from
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.740
the environment we're in. And our environment
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:40.220
has always been built around natural materials.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.579
So we place a lot of emphasis on timber crane
00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:47.269
buildings. There is a lot of kind of baked earth,
00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:51.089
so brick. And then lots of big glass windows
00:33:51.089 --> 00:33:53.910
and doors, both at primary but also at secondary
00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:56.170
level, for young people to be able to immediately,
00:33:56.369 --> 00:33:59.630
very, very quickly access the outside spaces
00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:03.950
in the natural world. So, yeah, I mean, we definitely
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.150
see people beat a path to our door because of
00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:08.769
that. I mean, we have to be careful that there's
00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:10.719
a difference between... being an environment
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:13.179
which you know has positive impacts on mental
00:34:13.179 --> 00:34:15.119
health and in some ways we should be thinking
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.880
about that for everyone there are times there's
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.260
some people think we might be a therapeutic institution
00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:22.079
and so we have to say to them that's a different
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.199
thing but I suppose you've got to find that balance
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.420
when you're talking about the mental health benefits
00:34:29.420 --> 00:34:32.119
for this with also the fact that this isn't it's
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:33.980
not just I mean there's a word I was kind of
00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:36.579
coming across it's not just restorative but it's
00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:40.179
also instorative in that it doesn't just either
00:34:40.179 --> 00:34:44.619
mitigate or repair, but it also generates positive
00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:48.239
outcomes for anyone who starts at kind of zero
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.480
or already kind of net positive in terms of things
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.699
like their cognitive abilities, in terms of their,
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:56.420
particularly things like relationships and their
00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:59.260
ability to connect with other people. Adam, you
00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:01.260
talked earlier about kind of the way that it
00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:03.539
generates a kind of feeling of kind of psychological
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:07.929
safety. on the on the that that as a as a kind
00:35:07.929 --> 00:35:10.469
of baseline that then enables students to really
00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:13.210
go and do amazing things precisely because they're
00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:14.869
not they're not having to filter out the white
00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:17.949
noise of an environment which feels the opposite
00:35:17.949 --> 00:35:21.309
and nature is just such a good way of generating
00:35:21.309 --> 00:35:26.150
that kind of positive feeling interesting and
00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:28.130
what about you adam i mean you know we are seeing
00:35:28.130 --> 00:35:30.550
these children coming with quite complex emotional
00:35:30.550 --> 00:35:35.909
needs and and as parents it can be quite frustrating
00:35:35.909 --> 00:35:39.269
to know how to manage them and is is going out
00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:41.949
into nature a way of of really supporting these
00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:44.550
children in terms of regulatory kind of you know
00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:48.269
self -regulation uh i mean i think certainly
00:35:48.269 --> 00:35:50.329
yes for the children but also for their for their
00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:53.250
parents actually uh i mean i think their lives
00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:55.030
that their lives are sort of parents it is so
00:35:55.030 --> 00:35:58.030
so challenged so spun up i mean society seems
00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.769
to be spinning ever harder ever more judgmental
00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:04.230
as well sadly but um but ever harder so just
00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:07.510
empowering the family to get out and about and
00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:10.530
enjoy that and create some time in the day. I
00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:12.349
mean, we're absolutely spot on with that research.
00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:15.269
I think also, you know, hopefully a lot of people
00:36:15.269 --> 00:36:17.590
will have a read of Cathy Willis's book afterwards.
00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:20.469
I mean, also saying that 20 minutes in a day
00:36:20.469 --> 00:36:25.010
for anybody, that's a lunchtime bit. And the
00:36:25.010 --> 00:36:28.590
research gets really into what sort of outdoor
00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:31.260
spaces should you be in. Even within that, I
00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:32.219
mean, there's outdoors and there's outdoors.
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.199
So I think so. And the neurodiversity piece is
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.760
absolutely right. I think many of us as schools
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.760
are beginning to take things off the walls now.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.019
We talked before about sort of intentional design
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:46.500
in classrooms, mute it down. You know, we don't
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.880
need the everything that's been written in the
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:51.739
last 3000 years stuck on a wall in bright orange
00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:53.849
and red because it's just. For our children who
00:36:53.849 --> 00:36:55.789
are a little bit, yeah, struggling in the university
00:36:55.789 --> 00:36:58.730
space, that's so, so dysregulating, frankly,
00:36:58.989 --> 00:37:02.949
for all. There's a balance, of course. So I think,
00:37:02.949 --> 00:37:06.289
yeah, ever more so, but the solution is not simply
00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:08.869
say, right, everybody's just outside, we prescribe
00:37:08.869 --> 00:37:11.829
nature because that's not always achievable for
00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:14.789
everybody. It's that constant wanting to try
00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:18.349
and at the weekends and the likes to get involved
00:37:18.349 --> 00:37:21.170
because the more we can slow down, I think that's...
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:23.639
One of the things that all of us at schools,
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.539
if we can create spaces that people can just
00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:30.539
be, it's amazing how much more you notice that
00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:33.360
you actually start to unravel and pick a bit
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.760
of life and start to see the nuances. It's a
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.739
bit like sitting on the beach, sitting on a coast.
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.380
Don't just sit down for 10 minutes and then go
00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:42.869
for an ice cream. Just wait. Just watch. for
00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:45.949
a bit um you become very creative quite quickly
00:37:45.949 --> 00:37:48.369
and things start to solve themselves in your
00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:53.190
brain um that's that's that's so true and and
00:37:53.190 --> 00:37:57.389
again we you know we often are helping parents
00:37:57.389 --> 00:38:00.030
talk to their children at our age group you know
00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:01.809
how do you have these difficult conversations
00:38:01.809 --> 00:38:05.309
and actually walking alongside your children
00:38:05.309 --> 00:38:08.769
um in nature where they can run off if they don't
00:38:08.769 --> 00:38:10.909
want to talk to you anymore but equally they're
00:38:10.909 --> 00:38:13.489
not having to make eye contact with you you know
00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:17.110
you're you're at a pace you're outside um that
00:38:17.110 --> 00:38:19.510
is a good time for them to open up to you and
00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:22.880
as you say just lying On a piece of grass together,
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.659
having a conversation, whether you're not having
00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:27.340
to look at each other, can be a really good place
00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:30.269
to have those kind of conversations. trying to
00:38:30.269 --> 00:38:31.789
work out what the cloud is and whether it's great
00:38:31.789 --> 00:38:34.449
Aunt Mildred's hat or whether it's something
00:38:34.449 --> 00:38:37.409
else that you're looking at. So true. Do you
00:38:37.409 --> 00:38:39.309
know, I think, you know, we as educators talk
00:38:39.309 --> 00:38:42.889
a lot about COVID and how stressful it was for
00:38:42.889 --> 00:38:45.510
all of us. But I do recall, you know, when we
00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:47.690
weren't allowed to go out very often and people
00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:49.909
were allowed to go out for an hour, you know,
00:38:49.929 --> 00:38:52.929
I think people were much more aware of the seasons
00:38:52.929 --> 00:38:56.690
changing. I think it was a time where, you know,
00:38:57.099 --> 00:38:58.920
People were going out for walks together. So
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.880
I'm just going to drop that in there because
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.480
I, you know, I think sometimes we always say
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.619
how awful for our children that, you know, they
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:06.880
went through this. But equally, there was an
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.679
element of it where some of them became much
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.559
more aware of nature and being outside and stargazing,
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:13.900
spending a lot of time outside, you know, looking
00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:16.400
up at the stars in the evening and spending time
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.960
with their families in that way. Nature came
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.559
back in to so many places, that nature that we'd
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.019
held on the edge of. of our sort of society ecosystem
00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:27.179
started to drift back in as things went really
00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:30.179
super quiet. It's amazing. Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:34.079
Now, as we sort of come towards the end of our
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.619
conversation, we always like to give our parents
00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:41.230
some practical advice. I think we can all say
00:39:41.230 --> 00:39:44.510
that we believe that having time in nature is
00:39:44.510 --> 00:39:46.969
so important. So if we were to give some advice
00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:50.369
to parents about how to engender this in their
00:39:50.369 --> 00:39:52.690
children, what advice can we give to parents
00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:55.590
and families about encouraging what we've been
00:39:55.590 --> 00:39:59.329
talking about? Start with you, Will. Yeah, so
00:39:59.329 --> 00:40:02.309
I mentioned growing things. So you're thinking
00:40:02.309 --> 00:40:05.710
about the plant world, even if it's just on a
00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:10.090
windowsill in a centrally urban area. flat uh
00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:12.869
to obviously being outside and and do so from
00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:15.170
the start i mean with anything you're trying
00:40:15.170 --> 00:40:17.309
to inculcate with with young people and children
00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:19.809
as a parent you are modeling that as much as
00:40:19.809 --> 00:40:22.300
anyone who's a teacher is at school So, you know,
00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:23.599
if you want them to read, you should be reading
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.079
yourselves. If you don't want to be on their
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:26.400
phone all the time, you should not be on your
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.980
phone all the time. If you want them to do stuff
00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:30.900
which connects to the natural world, you need
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:33.300
to be doing that too. So this might involve you
00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:35.340
actually kind of recalibrating your life a little
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:37.579
bit. And I know that people are busy, but actually
00:40:37.579 --> 00:40:39.780
it's going to have a beneficial impact for you
00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:42.079
and your productivity and your busy lives. If
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.119
you do take some time to set aside, I know that
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:46.840
it helps me in my job. to connect with the natural
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:49.780
world on a regular basis. So start early, model
00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:51.880
it, and don't necessarily think that you have
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.519
to do something extraordinary or, you know, excessively
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:56.960
ambitious. But, you know, if you are taking time
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:00.000
off as a family at whatever age, even if, you
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.659
know, you do get some pushback, as long as you're
00:41:02.659 --> 00:41:05.199
kind of doing it collectively, then, you know,
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.940
going outside, you know, having holidays away
00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:10.559
in different places where, you know, you're in
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:12.820
national parks or you're seeing the dark sky,
00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:15.880
you know, the stars and things like that. Again,
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.340
you're building it into your family routine.
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.500
And yes, there's a commitment to that. You could
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:21.539
do it regularly. But at the same time, that's
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:25.019
going to help all of you. So I suppose that would
00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:28.900
be a key piece of advice across any age group
00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:31.840
and also for adults as well. And I think constantly
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:33.860
seeing that there's a benefit for you as a parent.
00:41:35.190 --> 00:41:37.389
It is an important part of it. You don't have
00:41:37.389 --> 00:41:38.989
to be completely selfless with your children
00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:41.489
because they will benefit from things if you
00:41:41.489 --> 00:41:43.670
are also happier and better regulated. That's
00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.809
very true. Adam, anything to add to that? I love
00:41:47.809 --> 00:41:50.489
books. I stick it on the Christmas card list,
00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:53.130
Tristan Gooley's book, which is The Walker's
00:41:53.130 --> 00:41:58.610
Guide to Outdoor Clues and Signs. which is 858
00:41:58.610 --> 00:42:01.230
tips. Tristan Gooley, remarkable man, natural
00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:04.570
navigator, uses no map and compass, reads the
00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:07.210
landscape. It's literally, you'll be utterly
00:42:07.210 --> 00:42:10.429
inspired by the book. I defy you not to be. Two
00:42:10.429 --> 00:42:13.750
other things for me. Go and get lost in the best
00:42:13.750 --> 00:42:16.130
way possible. That wasn't meant to be rude. Go
00:42:16.130 --> 00:42:18.889
and find a place and don't take map and compass.
00:42:18.949 --> 00:42:21.900
Get lost yourselves and use... use your nose,
00:42:21.940 --> 00:42:24.780
navigate your way around it to have some adventures.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.380
How can you do that? You can play hunted. You
00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:31.099
can do your own family version or get four or
00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:33.539
five families together. I played a brilliant
00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:35.719
game with some friends down in the small town
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.019
market town of Oakhampton years ago, and you
00:42:38.019 --> 00:42:40.219
had to get selfies with different people. So
00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:43.199
you discover places and you get a love for being
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.880
outside. You can even play it in your school
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.659
as well, which we do here, which is just magical.
00:42:49.469 --> 00:42:53.010
But have fun with the outside because life is
00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:56.110
too short not to. I agree. And my one is camp.
00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:01.630
You know, we were a family of campers and our...
00:43:02.030 --> 00:43:05.690
best memories as a family were were camping and
00:43:05.690 --> 00:43:07.929
you know it is just going out in the morning
00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:10.010
where it's wet and dewy and your feet are on
00:43:10.010 --> 00:43:12.630
the ground and that total kind of a oneness with
00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:14.429
with nature and yes it's a bit uncomfortable
00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:16.969
most of the time but you know it was the time
00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:19.489
as a family where we made up games and you know
00:43:19.489 --> 00:43:21.429
playing you'd be very pleased out and playing
00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:24.409
golf with you know a a brush you know all these
00:43:24.409 --> 00:43:26.489
different things that were just you know the
00:43:28.029 --> 00:43:30.889
creating games, just being out there, being at
00:43:30.889 --> 00:43:33.329
One With Nature and around a campfire was just,
00:43:33.369 --> 00:43:36.469
you know, idyllic for us as children. You only
00:43:36.469 --> 00:43:39.389
leave your boots outside to freeze once, don't
00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:42.050
you? You just need the right grandma and the
00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:44.429
right sleeping bag. Once you've done that, you're
00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:47.610
away. You're away, absolutely. Okay, well, the
00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:49.789
last thing I'm going to ask you, and this is
00:43:49.789 --> 00:43:51.550
something that I ask everyone that comes on the
00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:56.010
podcast. If you were... if you were looking for
00:43:56.010 --> 00:43:59.789
the ideal teacher to teach about, you're not
00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.929
allowed David Attenborough, to teach about nature
00:44:02.929 --> 00:44:05.429
and so on, does anyone come to mind that you
00:44:05.429 --> 00:44:06.989
think, do you know what? I would have loved to
00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:08.769
have been taught by them. They would be an amazing
00:44:08.769 --> 00:44:11.449
teacher to have in my school that would really
00:44:11.449 --> 00:44:14.690
be able to really enthuse and inspire the children
00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:17.389
about this subject. Who would you choose? It
00:44:17.389 --> 00:44:18.690
doesn't need to be anyone famous. It might be
00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:23.340
someone you know. I think Chris Packham is someone
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:25.059
who comes to mind. He was a figure in my town.
00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:30.500
And just his enthusiasm and his continuing championing
00:44:30.500 --> 00:44:34.460
of the natural world. And the fact that he's
00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:36.179
faced his own challenges, but he's a really inspiring
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:40.380
person who has a profound and infectious understanding
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:42.380
of the natural world. He'd be brilliant. What
00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:45.739
about you, Adam? The book I recommend is Tristan
00:44:45.739 --> 00:44:47.679
Gurley, who's become a friend of mine as well,
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.679
who has taught me how to read a tree. in terms
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:53.980
of the shape, in terms of leaves, how to read
00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:57.440
a hedge, how to read a landscape, how to read
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:00.139
the environment that is around you. The really
00:45:00.139 --> 00:45:01.920
great thing about that is you can then become
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.300
the most boring parent in the world because you
00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:07.940
become that guy or that girl who just says, well,
00:45:08.059 --> 00:45:10.719
look, children, but actually there's an infectiousness
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:13.739
to it. How to read a puddle. You know which way
00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:15.420
you're going at certain times of year by reading
00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:19.710
a puddle. That's pretty niche. However, it's
00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.590
the subtle little signs. And once you appreciate
00:45:21.590 --> 00:45:25.550
that, you start to get a real sense of the environment
00:45:25.550 --> 00:45:27.650
that you live in. And don't look down. Always
00:45:27.650 --> 00:45:29.449
look up because the world is a very different
00:45:29.449 --> 00:45:32.369
place when you look up. Oh, amazing. Thank you
00:45:32.369 --> 00:45:35.449
both so much for your time. I feel very calm
00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:38.030
and yet inspired at the same time. So thank you
00:45:38.030 --> 00:45:40.309
for giving up your time and look forward to seeing
00:45:40.309 --> 00:45:43.070
both of you soon. Bye bye. Thank you for listening
00:45:43.070 --> 00:45:46.659
to today's dilemma. If you'd like to hear more
00:45:46.659 --> 00:45:49.360
about what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.900
at headinheels. Or if you want to learn more
00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:54.079
about the Dragon School, our Instagram account
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:57.380
is dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any
00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:00.119
ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:04.659
do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org.
00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:06.260
So until next time.