WEBVTT
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Now let's get to the show.
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All right, hello, and welcome to another episode of The Early Show.
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It's sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal.
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I'm your host, Chris Early.
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I'm an injury lawyer in Massachusetts.
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And as you know, on this show, The Early Show, we always bring you the best and the brightest.
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Today's no exception.
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We have the professor, Chad Dudley on the call.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for having me.
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It's uh great to be here.
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Uh I'm a fan, so this is this is awesome.
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Oh, that's I appreciate that.
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So Chad is a cosmic giver.
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That's why he's so successful because he he shares everything he knows.
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And so that's what I really love about him.
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So we're gonna get into a lot of stuff is always make sure you sharpen your pencils.
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We'll have plenty of writer-downers on this episode of the early show.
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So, Chad, welcome to the show, my friend.
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Uh, thank you.
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Thank you.
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Good to be here.
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So, can we I like to start the start with my guest, right?
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I like to start, you know, who's Chad Dudley?
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You know, going back, where did you grow up?
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What kind of kid were you?
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Yeah, take it back.
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I love it.
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I love it.
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Um, gosh, you know, I was my family's from Southern California, uh, kind of up in the up in the desert area between uh Vegas and LA.
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And uh, you know, born there uh when I was about three, my family moved to Hawaii.
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Uh my dad had spent some time growing up there as a kid.
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He thought it was a great place to raise a family, and so he and my mom just picked up and moved there, didn't really know anybody, or just one person maybe.
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And uh yeah, I grew up grew up in Honolulu.
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I grew up playing a lot of tennis, first at the state level, then at the national level, got a pretty high national ranking, and then um got a scholarship to go to the Bolitary Tennis Academy when I was when I was about 14.
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And so I moved by myself uh to southern Florida to and now it's called IMG, the IMG Academy.
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I just read Andre Agassiz's uh autobiography, great book, open.
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Oh so good, yeah, so good.
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So Andre Agassiz he went there.
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He was there the same time I was there.
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Uh Andre Agassi, okay, uh Pete Sampras, Monica Sellys, uh Anna Kornikova, Tommy Haas.
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Wow.
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This goes on and on.
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It was like the heyday of the academy.
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I mean, they just had uh amazing players all around.
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And so it was a really great experience.
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We you know went to a little bit of school, played a lot of tennis, traveled, played tournaments, and and uh that's how I did, you know, finished up my high school there.
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I got recruited to play um tennis for LSU.
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Uh they were a top ten team in the country uh back in in that time and um still doing great today.
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And and uh played four years of college tennis.
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Uh I taught tennis for about uh a year and a half, almost two years after undergrad, and decided, you know what, I I wanna I think I want to go back to school.
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And I ended up uh going to law school and um got out and out of the gate.
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I you know, I I I clerked for one defense firm and I I was like, oh my gosh, this is this is terrible.
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This is terrible.
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And then I clerked for a plaintiff's firm and then I never looked back.
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I never I went straight out and been on the plaintiff's side, and um that's how I got, you know.
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I I I really, really enjoyed like when I started working for a plaintiff's firm, going, gosh, this is what I want to do.
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You know, you it's very tangible.
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You you know, people come to you that they have uh one of the toughest days in their lives.
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Uh you get the opportunity to help them.
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They're you know, just you can see a case from start to finish.
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It was it was awesome.
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So I just uh and I can div dig into all that, but yeah, that's that's kind of how I ended up there and my journey to uh become the tennis success wasn't by accident, obviously.
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So a lot of you know, the fact that you're playing with those guys and gals speaks volumes.
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What it as an aside, I love this is random.
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I love hiring people who are super competitive.
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So to listen, but really I encourage hire people who like to compete.
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Anyway, I digress.
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No, I believe the same thing.
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It's just um, you know, there's a and I always say there's there's a difference between hating to lose and loving to compete, you know, like or being competitive.
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I think that no one likes to lose, and right, you know, you show up and and in the process of losing, no one's happy.
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However, a competitive person practices like prepares for the match and and puts the time, effort, energy because they're thinking about that match way before it happens.
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Yeah, and they're doing all the things that it takes to show up and and do well.
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So by the time the match comes around, um, they're that's competitive, right?
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Not not hitting to lose is just hitting to lose.
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Yes.
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What did high-level tennis teach you?
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What were the biggest takeaways?
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Um, gosh, you know, it it's the discipline of yeah, if you're trying to we would get up and we'd work out for an hour and a half, two hours, even even in high school, you know, an hour, two hours before school, you'd start and go to your classes, and then you're working out for you know another four to five hours and waits and running, and you're exhausted, and then you go study.
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And then every you gotta be super disciplined about your time and and also uh you just get a high tolerance for a certain level of hard work.
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You know, by the time I got to law school, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just all I have to do is go read and write.
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Just walk in the park.
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This is so much easier than undergrad.
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I mean, this was for me, it was a little bit different because it just yeah, I had you know done you know you work so hard and play so much, you're just constantly going 100 miles an hour.
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Law school is a bit of a I'm not saying it's you know easy, but is is a lot chiller scheduled.
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Right, right.
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Undergrad because you were so used to really, really, really hard.
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Even law school is pretty doable because oh yeah.
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I mean it it was a completely, I was like, oh gosh, I get to be in you know air-conditioned library where I get to study, and this is awesome.
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This is fantastic.
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I love tennis games.
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Um, because I taught, you know, you teaching tennis for eight or ten hours out in in South Louisiana is hot.
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It can be hot.
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And and then before that, playing tennis, so you just kind of get used to a high level of work.
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And then I think there is a thing about just a uh resilience and competitiveness.
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I mean, you're just you know, you you when you're competing, you know, at that at a at any level, and you just you get used to uh keeping your head in the game and not getting you know because we all have setbacks, right?
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I mean, everything ever goes smooth.
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You have this plan, and then you know, every plan is perfect until you get punched in the nose, right?
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And uh so the resilience and going, okay, you know, keeping your head on straight when you encounter adversity, and and you know, also coming against I think one of the cool things is like uh it teaches you to be to embrace a highly qualified competitor, right?
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I mean, versus being uh fearful of them.
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And because you realize like the the better competition you go up against the the people that you're around, whether you know they set a higher standard, and if you don't um look at it like, hey, this person's making me better.
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This is not a competitor, but they're really challenging me to be better.
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I think that mentality is incredibly helpful.
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Um, and it served it served us well as we look at that like we're like, okay, you know what?
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Let's let's learn from the people around us.
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What are they doing better?
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I love that a lot of good things from from playing tennis.
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Clearly, clearly, it kind of toughened you up a lot, it sounds like, right?
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Like playing with some you know, high-level people, you just are forced to level your game literally, right?
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Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.
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Because yeah, a hundred percent.
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You know, you you you do well in your city and you go play a state tournament.
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You do well in the state tournament, you play a regional, you play regional, you do national, and you do international, and you know, you kind of keep pushing.
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I love it, man.
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I I sincerely love that.
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So you you you you clerked and it love that you started doing plants work.
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Was that was that mass towards work?
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Is that what I saw?
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Yeah, so yeah, the uh I laughed the real quick story is like when I was coming out of law school that and I think I've told the story maybe, but um, I clerked at the defense firm, and it was the exact time where the defense firm was using books, and the um law school was using West Law.
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And so you could do way more research on West Law than you can.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And we, you know, I had this stack of research assignments at the uh in the library at the defense firm, and you pick one and go do the research and then turn it in and turn in your hours, and it would drive me crazy to use the books because it was so slow.
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So I just grab a stack one day of all the research assignments, go to the library at the law school, use Westlaw, crank out my my uh memos, I turn them back in.
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The partner the next day calls me and then goes, Hey, I need to talk to you about these, you know, these this research you did.
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And I go in, I'm like, Did I get it wrong?
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And he goes, No, you just you did it too quick.
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You gotta we gotta build the clients, we gotta build our you know, build our hours, we gotta go slower.
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I'm like, this is this this hurts my soul.
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This is contrary to everything I've ever been about in my entire life.
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And if this is the career I've chosen, this is terrible.
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And I was kind of I really was bummed out.
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And so when that clerkship ended, I was like, man, what am I gonna do?
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I'm doing this thing, and if this is what it's like, because I'm the first attorney of my my from my family, and and so I had no idea like what they do.
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And then um, I had a buddy that was in a plants firm, and we got out and like, no, we don't we don't bill hours and we just gotta win.
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And you know, and I was like, Oh, I can get behind this.
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This is great.
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Right, right.
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And then I took a job, and uh yeah, my first my first gig was a um project case, was a um uh toxic tort case in North Louisiana.
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And they uh, you know, I was um there's a there's 4,000 plaintiffs, and they're exposed to some chemicals from this um railroad company.
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And uh yeah, I was in charge of just like learning about all those clients, you know.
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And yeah, it was I remember um again, uh my counterpart on the defense side was a really great attorney, really awesome.
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And I was like, this attorney knows more about my clients than I do.
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This this cannot be.
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And so finally I was like after one of um our meetings, I just went up and asked her, I said, Look, I'm impressed.
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You you're really how do how do you keep track of all of our clients?
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Because she showed me kind of what she was doing, she built this little database thing, da da da and I like all right, I'm off off to the races, I'm gonna go learn how to build a database and learn SQL and all this kind of stuff.
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And I so I went down that path, and that really got me into the sort of data tracking tech side of law firms, and that was the you know, and and constantly trying to learn from that moment on.
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And and but that was a that was an interesting case, and it it very learned so many things on that case, and um very grateful for that experience.
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So if I'm hearing you correctly, you saw that defense lawyer operating at a high level, and you're like, Yeah, and that kind of activated you almost, right?
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That there was always because I yeah, I'm always like, gosh, someone's doing good and doing something better, and right, right, just go ask, like, oh yeah.
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Sometimes they tell you and sometimes they don't, and then there's no harm in it, right?
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And I want to be better at my craft, I want to be a better attorney.
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This person's doing some good stuff, let me go find out.
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And um, yeah, again, she was kind enough to just walk me through.
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Here's here's how I did.
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I was like, wow, okay, and that helped uh change my career.
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That's all right.
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So, how old are you at that point?
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Um, gosh, I must have been um this was maybe 25-ish.
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25.
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Yeah, okay.
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You're still you're still pretty pretty young.
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So, how long did you stay at that firm for?
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I was with that firm for probably about three or four years.
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Three or four years.
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Covering your teeth, getting good.
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I had some really great mentors there, um, just awesome people.
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It was really just really great people, people I still stay in touch with today.
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Cool.
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And um great trial attorneys, uh, just great attorneys, period.
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And it was awesome because you know, the importance of having a mentor, right?
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I mean, they can a good mentor uh can really accelerate your development in in so many ways.
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Because you can, you know, um we're there's a lot of smart people and they can figure out how to get from point A to point B.
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Uh, but gosh, with the right mentor, you can figure it out in a tenth of the time.
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I wish I knew that years ago, but I'm I'm I I hear you 100%.
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So you're about 30 when you left that that firm?
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Yeah, about about yeah, probably about 30-ish.
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Where'd you go then?
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So then, so I was doing uh doing toxic torts, doing um asbestos uh type litigation.
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Um again, these massive cases.
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I remember I, you know, uh my Monday mornings would be these exception hearings and down in the you know courthouse, and I would be there on behalf of on 20 different cases, and just from go from courtroom to courtroom to courtroom to you know these different hearings.
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And so I did that, and then after that, I'm like, okay, this is great, but I'd love to really do like you know, single event where it's you know one plaintiff or you know, and there's one and more traditional personal injury.
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Right.
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And so I found a firm uh is a smaller boutique firm, but some again, some really, really great attorneys.
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Um and I've been fortunate just out of the gates, uh plaintiffs' firms that were took pride in their craft and really cared about their clients.
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Yep, very just like doing it, doing it for the right reasons, and and so I went to a firm um boutique firm that um just really just getting some really great verdicts, uh did great trial work and spent some time there.
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And uh it was cool because I got there, I kind of had this database sort of tech background going, and then really spending time with those guys on on not mass tort cases, not toxic tort, not these, you know, where there's a thousand plaintiffs, but where there's one plaintiff.
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Yeah.
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Um, learned a lot from them.
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And then also they said, Hey, you you can you help us organize our office?
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Because the skill set that you bring to the table is you know, keeping track of a lot of stuff.
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They liked it.
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They liked it.
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Yeah, they liked it.
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So I got kind of into the the law firm practice side, like the operational side to some degree, and how do we get case in the door and tracking?
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So I really went down that path.
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And then um, and then there was a um another personal injury firm that was doing their advertising firm.
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They were um you know doing way more cases, and they had you know heard what I was doing.
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I went and spent some time with them, and they said, look, come on board, be more of a COO type role.
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Yeah, handle some cases, and I did for you know, I continue to handle some cases, but also more of the operational side of the firm.
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And and you know, you talk about mentors.
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Um, I I I through that met a bunch of mentors that helped me with accelerate my my knowledge about how to how to run law firms, and that was huge.
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You you you as one mentors a few times, right?
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Encourage the audience, get a mentor, right?
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Oh my gosh, like like what I don't, I mean, you know, we all need a coach.
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And you're going like I just think about so you know, now my my my most recent obsession is pickleball.
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I've been playing a lot of pickleball, and to the hardcore tennis players, they they they can take some offense at that, but it's fine.
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Any rackets work.
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:44.159
But the point was, you know, I was I was the other morning, I was playing early in the morning with somebody, and on the court next to us was this guy, and he was practicing his serve, and I was watching him practice his serve, and he was there early in the morning and he practiced his serve for an hour, but it was completely wrong.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.320
His grip is wrong, his stroke is wrong.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:51.200
It was, I mean, he just was reinforcing a bad habit for an hour.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:17:05.119
And I was like, man, it made me think like there's so many people out there that were like, hey, I'm up early, I'm putting in the time, I'm putting in the reps, but if you're doing it completely wrong or going down the incorrect path, you're not helping, and you're going backwards.
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.920
And had that guy just had a coach out there with him, it would have been so much more productive.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.519
We do that so many times in our in our own world.
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.880
And I think the most you know, you get a coach, get get someone to work with you, get a mentor.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.359
Um, there's a bunch of different ways to do it, but you know, if you're stubborn and want to figure it out on your own, you you you'll probably get there.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:30.000
You're just you're gonna take you know years instead of many, many years.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:38.000
Yeah, and it's just not it's just sometimes somebody says something, and yeah, that's been a big you know, it's no secret.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.799
I tell people, yeah, that you should do that, and it helps.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:44.720
You strike me as a guy who who gets, you know, you're dialed in, right?
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:53.519
Like you're you're you're you were are not like allowed, you know, like arrogant guy, like you're you're humble student and you're always seeing knowledge, right?
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.279
That's what I see, you know, from you.
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:56.400
It it jumps off the page.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:57.440
Are do you still get coaching?
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:58.480
Do you still have mentors now?
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.480
Oh yeah, I'm always, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.599
Um, I think you had Cameron Harold on here um recently.
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.200
He's a he's awesome, great.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:16.720
Uh there's different different uh mentors in different stages of life, um, where it might be about this thing at one point, and and at another point it might be this thing.
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:36.400
And so over the years, you know, continuing to to reach out and um just work with different people and and and you know, I think when I'm talking with someone, the the most dangerous phrase that has killed more firms than any other phrase is we're doing that.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:37.839
We're already doing that.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:38.640
Yeah.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:53.359
So like if I um you know, if I say, hey, uh, you know, you should have a um you should have a client communication plan for all your clients, and you should be intentional about it, and you should measure it, you should um you know be fanatical about it.
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.160
And you saying, uh, we do that right, we talk to our clients.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.240
Like it kills this whole thing, you can't learn something that you already know.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:00.720
Nope.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:12.480
And there's a difference, like all the there's so many um benefits, like all the benefits of the things that we do are not from just implementation, but fanatical implementation.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.880
And so if you're doing something at like 80% or 85%, you're telling them, hey, we already do that.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.720
We're like, okay, you might be.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:28.720
But um, you know, getting fanatical about it and doing it at 95 to 100%, all the the the benefits just multiply exponentially.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.680
And that's something that is probably lost.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.559
Like people, it doesn't quite resonate all the time.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:59.839
Like, okay, you kind of call your clients, but you don't measure it, and this other person has a very meticulous, like when the client sends a contract, they're gonna hear from this person within 12 hours of this, and then you know, they're gonna get this message by this person, and then they're gonna get something sent to their house, and then they're gonna get a follow-up call, and then they're gonna, you know, through the entire life of the case, and we're gonna measure it and have dashboards, and we're not only gonna have dashboards, we're gonna hold people accountable.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:04.960
Um, not from uh you know, hitting them with the stick, but from a point of like we want to be excellent at what we do.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.119
Like there's a different piece, right?
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:13.759
And so whenever someone goes, Hey, we're already doing that, I'm like, like, I'm a lifelong student, I'm always learning.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:19.279
I've I've worked with some really amazing, incredible firms.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.480
And and yeah, I mean, you're just you're drinking from a fire hose and you're learning a bunch of stuff while you're teaching.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.000
I've also worked with some firms that aren't so great, but I've still learned from them, you know, because you just gotta have that mentality.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:36.480
I've been to good conferences where you learn a bunch of stuff, and I've been to eh, okay conferences, but I've still learned.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:42.559
And just actively having that mentality is is I think the way you gotta be.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.960
It's just it's a better way to go through life to you, right?
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:45.440
I love it.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.200
I'm shaking my head, you're speaking my language.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.079
So you said you said fanatical invitation a lot.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Like I'm fanatical about my firm's growth, doing it the right way, right?
00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:03.440
Because it sounds like you sometimes we stumble, like you sort of like you know, stumbled into favorable positions by intentional discipline.
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:08.079
It wasn't random, but like you kind of just like were open, you found your way to where you belong, right?
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.839
It seems like you're operating today, like where you belong, like high-level law firm.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.960
But you had to start as a you were a nobody, like no one, you were a great testimony, but you as a lawyer, like no one really knew who you were.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:17.920
Yeah, right.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.160
Opportunities all around us every single day.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:20.799
Right.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.480
Um because there's so many things that like it could occur.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:42.400
Um, you know, you just think about like, and then you know, there's a saying that you know opportunities multiply as they're seized, and it's so true in the sense of like, you know, I talk to younger attorneys and they're they're getting started in their career, and um any of my my sons and you're like, Hey, I you know, I want this this dream job.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.480
Uh my sons are they're uh 25 and 22.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.119
Okay.
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:48.880
Are they in the law or no?
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.319
No, they're they're in the they're the tech computer programmers.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:53.759
Uh well they're very smart.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.720
Yes, yeah.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:01.200
So they they like that piece, and and I talked to them and and I say, you know, like when you Start off your career.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:07.359
Um, you're lucky if if if maybe 10% of what you do on a day-to-day basis you're really in love with, right?
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.640
And you got this 90%, like you just gotta do it, right?
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:18.559
And hopefully during the course of your career, the amount of things that you know, your day that 10% grows, and maybe it gets up to 80, 9%.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:20.079
But you know, there's always stuff that you run into.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:21.519
Like, I wish I'd have to deal with that.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.039
But for the most part, I'm I'm really fortunate for what I look at my schedule each day and go, oh, that's all right.
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.880
I get to talk to these people, I get to do this thing, and and it clearly lights them up.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:31.359
Clearly.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.359
Yeah, and cool.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:40.559
And when you start off, you just gotta go, okay, um expand the your job description, so to speak.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:45.279
Like, hey, I get paid to do A, B, and C, but let's look for the things that I really love.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:50.160
And don't I know it's easy to say now, but like you can't get, are they gonna pay me to do that?
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.680
Are they, you know, like go talk to somebody and go, hey, do you need help with that project?
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.319
I'm not, I don't care if I get paid extra.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.079
I'm I want to go do this thing as my career.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.920
This person's doing it at a high level.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.400
I'm gonna go hang out with them and and see how I can help and how I can learn.
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:13.039
And by you know, constantly kind of reaching out and and improving your craft, um, it opens up other opportunities.
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:22.640
And you didn't even know you're you're training for this interview, but because you did these things, you're you're more in a and all of a sudden you find yourself doing more of the things you like.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.599
And so I really do believe that opportunity is all around the list.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.920
And uh I'm with you.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:38.720
So you you dropped this this phrase, which I really struck with me, not hitting with a stick, but rather like how uh leveling people up in a positive way, empowering people.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:39.599
Could you talk about that?
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.519
Because sometimes at our firms, things don't go according.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.400
We go to a conference, we want to do it this way, our team doesn't do it.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:51.200
I love that not beating with a stick, but like really like empowering, demonstrating pursuing excellence.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:57.920
How should lawyers have those conversations with their team members when things are falling apart and not easy?
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:03.200
You know, I think about when I when I was playing on um you know the team at LSU, right?
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:12.880
And so you need six people to play on the team, and then you have typically two people that are you know there if someone uh is injured or something happens or whatever, right?
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:42.400
And the the idea was I remember like the concept being you know, if if we beat, if we're just hard on everybody on the team, especially the two guys that are waiting to come in, like if we don't if we beat them down so much every day, hey, you missed this shot, you didn't do this thing, you're slow, when it's time for them to step up and play, their their confidence is gonna be so low, they're gonna feel beat down.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:58.400
And and so, in a similar way, if if the goal is we want to create a great firm and people that that are confident in who they are and confident in their ability to do the job, we have to coach them up and not keep picking at them, keep beating them, right?
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:10.640
I mean, we need to empower them and give them those tools um because when they it's when they're called on to step up and play, uh, we need them in a in a feeling good about themselves and feeling good about their skill set.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:27.279
And so that's why, you know, you can kind of like you know, you can talk about a dashboard and and sometimes when I work with firms, I'm like, okay, we're gonna go monitor these, you know, these key performance indicators, and they're like, okay, I'm gonna go get on Susie, I'm gonna go get on John and really wear them out.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.920
I'm like, no, let's let's let's let's own it.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.839
Like, what are we doing that is allowing this?
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.920
Are we not giving them the tools?
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:42.319
We're not training them, you know, let's assume that everyone here wants to be great at their job.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:47.200
And until we have you know indisputable evidence otherwise, let's just assume that they want to be great at the job.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:48.640
What is the rub here?
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:55.519
And as leaders and coaches, we gotta own it and figure it out and work with it and and and get to the bottom of it.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.640
If we just say, hey, they don't want to, you know, they're terrible.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.000
Susie, then that's that's lazy coaching, right?
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:03.039
Totally, totally.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.039
Andrew Finkelstein, he's been on the show.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.400
He said something that's awesome.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.920
I've learned so much from that guy that guys.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.519
He's another professor, yeah, so generous, teacher.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.480
But he said, I assume positive intent, and that rings in my ears every day.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:17.759
And I literally talk about that with my team.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.880
I assume positive intent.
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.039
You know, Chad didn't mean to screw up that demand.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.759
He just maybe I didn't coach Chad enough or whatever, right?
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.880
Like, so you keep saying the word coach, I love that because that's what it is.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.599
Like you're you're running a football team or a tennis team.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.119
That's like we are we're coaching or players.
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:38.640
We need to, there's it's like psychology, it's it's it's so there's so many disciplines.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.160
And like we didn't really, a lot of us didn't get trained on how to coach people.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:48.799
So a lot of us yeah, it's like it's so hard because if you press the right button, off the races.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.960
If you unwittingly press the wrong button, it's like disaster central.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.920
So like you gotta be so you can you gotta know your people and and know what how to when to press the button.
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.880
Um when, but that's it's so tricky.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.400
So I I like what I was just writing down, you know, not hitting with the stick, but rather coaching up, hey, let's do better next time, Chad.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.240
Let's, you know, you're doing such a good job, right?
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:14.400
And it's just I find it to be a challenge sometimes because like you, high performance, high demanding, I want it done this way.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.480
And so not everyone, you know, we're human and stuff.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.039
Cameron Harrell will say we're all human here, things happen.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.400
So, you know, we're not just looking for perfection, we're looking for greatness.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.839
And the more you can coach effectively, the more greatness you're gonna get out of your team, right?
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:45.200
And it's it's challenging because you look at you know, uh, you look at professional, oh, you know, first of all, if it if it if it's a professional team, then they've gone through you think about all that they've gone through high school, they've gone through college, they they they these people know what they want to do and and they want to win a championship, and it's very clear.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.440
And sometimes we don't necessarily do that with our law firm.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.480
Like, what are we doing this for?
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:49.519
Like, what are we trying to do?
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:50.880
How good do we want to be?
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:52.720
Um, what are what are our aspirations?
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.319
And we don't maybe have those conversations.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:07.200
The other thing that's challenging is that even in the professional teams, they have a they had one, the career, like there's a you know, I think for football, it's like three to five years of the average career and resource sports.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:13.680
Yeah, they're not, you know, you think about the career of someone at our firm, and we hope that it's decades, right?
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:20.319
And and you're talking decades, and then you're also talking about um there's no off season off-season, right?
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:27.680
Like for a sports team, they have, hey, we go super, super crazy hard, and then we get a little bit of a break, and then kind of get back in training and we ramp up for the year.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:42.480
Yeah, there's this there's shorter careers, and then there's off-seasons, and that's the challenge with you know, our teams is like, how often do we, all right, the goal for this year is that, and then you hit it, and then the next year starts immediately, and we're all at it again.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.279
How do you give people a break?
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:51.359
Or um then how do you keep them motivated for not not three to five years, but for decades?
00:28:51.599 --> 00:29:01.359
And it's it's a it's a challenging thing to be a good coach, a good leader, and I'm still learning on how to do it better.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:05.759
And you probably look back on things you did 10 years ago and go, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did it, I did it that way.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.279
That's part of it, right?
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:07.680
Two years.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.480
I hope yeah, two years last week.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:21.519
And yeah, so it's uh but again, I think that's a a core component of it is okay, can we just and that's again another team thing, just assume positive intent.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:22.640
Like, you know what?
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:29.599
We're I remember like you're we're playing a match and then you're playing doubles, and all sorts of stuff is gonna happen during the course of the match.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.839
Like you're the other team can play really, really well.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.880
Maybe it's a day that your partner's not playing up you know their best, maybe it's a day you're not playing your best.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.359
But if we start picking on each other, hey, you missed that shot, I can't believe it, you suck.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:42.799
Or that was unheard of.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:48.079
Like that was an unspoken rule of like you are there to lift them up and get their head back in the game.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:53.279
Because if you start piling on, it just all comes unraveled so quick.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:04.079
And and so, you know, same thing with our our team at the firm is like, okay, we need to build them up, we need to get pick them up, we need to like, you know, and and so that's the mentality.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.440
I love that, man.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:09.119
So you you found some passion, you know, doing single event stuff.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:09.599
You like that?
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:18.720
Sound sounds like more than the miss tort because you could really kind of get more maybe intimate with the client and just you know, more, more, more hands-on, uh helping real you know, people individually.
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.680
So then how did you get where'd you go then?
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.119
Like, did you guys did you then when did you find W debauge?
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:26.160
Like, what where where did you go?
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:26.880
What showed you?
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:31.440
So we had actually, you know, um my partners and I all worked for a firm.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:40.799
And and then this is a um, so you know, we all I was the COO handling a few cases, and my two partners were the trial attorneys at the firm.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.759
Yeah, and then one day the two and we were all happy.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.160
I was I was enjoying the firm, life was good.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:54.319
That um my two partners were trying the cases, they were enjoying what they're doing, and when the two partners came in and go, Hey, look, um, we have some bar issues.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:56.319
We're gonna Oh really, yeah.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:05.920
They they just came in and you know, and it was a they they just it was awkward, and they said, Hey, look, we're we might have some trouble, we don't think it's gonna be a big deal.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:27.359
Um but we're we're letting you know, and then like not not short thereafter, they were disbarred, and they were disbarred for um is that probably like a decade prior to that, they had shared um, they had done a instead of program whereby uh legal assistance, if they settled a case pre-suit, they would get a percentage of the you know of the of the fee.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:35.200
Ten years later, you know, the the bar uh basically delivered the their you know judgment on that.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:40.880
And so we were sitting there and we're like, gosh, do we it was a strange thing, do we um try and keep this thing going?
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.039
Do we all go work for other firms?
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.920
Do we go try and you know start our own firms?
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:54.640
And uh we really believed in the team that was there, you know, and um said, all right, let's go form we're gonna keep this thing going, form Delhi DeBozure.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:59.599
And it was a really, really tough um couple years.
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.279
I mean, where you know that we weren't getting nearly as many calls.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:14.880
And um and at that point, um, so back this back in 2009, uh, I really had my first consulting client.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:23.359
Uh so I I've been doing some database stuff and dashboards and that kind of stuff, and and one firm called me up and said, Hey, can you come help us out?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.839
It's my very first okay, boom, I'm in.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:26.319
That's cool.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:34.640
And so first Vista Consulting was formed back in 2009, and then um we started Delhi Devotion in 2009.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:42.000
And so both were off the ground and just hustling, just trying to like hopefully they both, you know, go great.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.640
Uh, but it was definitely a grind.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:50.799
Um, and I learned so much during you know those early years, got to make a bunch of really, really great relationships.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:57.039
That was back when there was no consultants, there's no, you know, no coaching.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.079
I think uh Atticus was I think they might be the OGs.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.599
They were out of Florida, Mark Powers and those guys who are amazing.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:23.759
Um, they may have been the only other ones, and so we got going, a whole new space, and um the firm grew, Vista grew um with Tim Mackey, who's uh just an awesome close friend and also uh mentor and uh just just an incredible person, human being.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:30.160
And then um, and so we just kind of we grew broke both, and then the law firm started to get traction, and Vista got traction.
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:49.200
And then in um 2018, the um the the advertising agency that we were using as a firm, uh the the owner, uh Arnie uh Malheim, another awesome person in industry who we learned a bunch of stuff from, uh said, Hey, look, I'm thinking about selling the agency.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:50.799
And we said, Who to who?
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.960
And he said, uh just you know, uh some guys that want to buy it.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.799
And I was like, Well, can we buy it?
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.319
What if what if we bought it?
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.599
And so we bought CJ Advertising 2018.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:11.760
I got out of this at that point, uh, turned it, you know, Tim took it over completely at that point, and so uh we started, you know, trying to help firms grow.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.320
And and it was really the first time.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:24.639
Um, so we approached it from we're not gonna just help firms get more cases in the door, but we approached it from a very operational driven standpoint.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.559
So Mickey Love, who's incredible, came on board and and she had worked with us in Vista and she's part of Vista.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.559
But when we bought CJ Advertising, um, she was you know, ran CJ.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.360
We worked with her to help grow firms.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.800
We had a bunch of firms just have some tremendous growth.
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:47.840
So working with them operationally and helping them get more cases in the door.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.639
I saw a ton of clients um do that.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.639
And at the time, that was a very novel idea.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:03.519
So there wasn't a bunch of you know uh consulting agencies out there, uh, and there the advertising agencies did not offer any of that, right?
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:38.960
And so, and then now I think every every agency has like operational arm, and there's a million mastermind groups, and there's um too many, yeah, there's too many conferences, and but back in back then it was like all pretty pretty new, you know, and uh and so it was cool to kind of like you know start some of these trends and get you know get get that stuff going and uh yeah, so then um we we just uh grew the agency, um continue to work with firms, and um we just sold the agency maybe six six months ago.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.400
And uh fantastic.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:44.800
I'm curious going back a little bit with Delhi DeBoosh, you guys start the firm, right?
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.000
You said it was hard.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:49.440
So what what were some things you did well looking back like geez?
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.920
I'm glad we did that because obviously things are working out, it just wasn't immediate.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:08.480
Yeah, you know, we we're um so when we when we first um started the firm in 2009, you know, there's some really you know um very well-funded competitors that were there, and we just couldn't compete with them financially.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:18.800
Like we're just such a we were a small player in the market, and we're just uh and we're looking around going, gosh, how do we even start to where do we how do we start to chip away at this huge task?
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.119
And you know, you zero in on the things you have control over, and we said, okay, you know what?
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:31.679
If um we're gonna we we're gonna be excellent at client service and at the results that we get for our clients.
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:39.920
If we're gonna get fanatical about that piece, and we said uh, you know, look, we're gonna talk to our clients more than every other firm.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:45.599
Uh we went to a spot where like, okay, every seven days we're gonna you know make sure that they're hearing from us.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.840
And then um we realized that there's a there's a point of diminishing returns that the clients were like, hey, why are you calling me again?
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:58.719
Okay, we prefer that versus um, you know, I never hear from you because that was the that was the big complaint, right?
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.880
And we want to have you know meaningful, intentional communication with the client, not just like, hey, how are you doing?
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:09.039
Okay, see you bye, but really get to know them um and then meet their needs, right?
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.760
And and so we got fanatical about that.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.360
We got fanatical about breaking down every part of the case and going, how do we get a better result here?
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.280
How do we do this more efficiently?
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.559
How do we um increase the the result that we get for our clients?
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:30.159
Um, and we're like, okay, we're gonna make sure that they all know that we're their attorney and they they can reach us and get answers real quick.
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:43.840
And in addition to that, we're gonna push to get the best results with possible and uh and you know, like there's some firms that like we got my you know, my two partners are just really great trial attorneys, and we have a bunch of other attorneys at the office that are really, really great trial attorneys.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:38:05.119
That's just an awesome um I mean such an awesome advantage to have because you know some firms have to you know refer those cases out or they have to bring someone in or whatever, and and having those, you know, just some really great trial attorneys all throughout the firm makes everyone better and really helps everyone push to get you know good good results for their clients.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:25.840
And and so as we were doing these things, um and really fanatically, we just saw gosh, the number of referrals go in, and you know, then we start reinvesting the f we reinvested in the firm where okay, we could have taken a profit of this, but you know, let's put it back into growing the firm and repeating that, you know, year over year.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:41.119
And again, I mean the role of mentors, I mean, just being intentional, you know, each year we'd sit down and um we'd you know, the Cameron Harold vivid vision sit down and go, hey, what what do we want this to look like in every year?
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.960
What do we want it to look like three years from now?
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.199
Now I spoke with Cameron, he says, that's not how you're supposed to do it.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:49.440
You're supposed to do like, but the concept being, what are we trying to build?
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:59.119
And and really taking the time and not just aimlessly working, you know, in the firm, but really stepping out and going, okay, what are we trying to build?
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:00.000
What does it look like?
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.760
What do we want to be a part of?
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.920
If our family, our friends, you know, interacted with our firm, what would we want that experience to look like?
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.760
And and putting it on paper and sharing that with people around us.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:16.159
And and that, you know, nothing's there's no magic bullet.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:25.199
There's no like super, it's just consistent, high-intensity, intentional um effort over long periods of time.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:27.920
And how big is Delly De Boiser today?
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:36.320
Um, we have a we have about 150 total employees and then have um about 50 attorneys.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:38.320
Hey everyone, it's Chris.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:47.280
If you ever have a personal injury case here in Massachusetts that you can't take on or just want to refer out to a trusted firm, my team and I would love to work with you.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:57.840
Since 2004, I've only practiced personal injury law, and my team and I pride ourselves on handling referrals with transparency, good communication, and care for your clients.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:03.920
And if you're not already getting it, head on over to practicetipofheek.com.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:15.039
Practicetifoftheweek.com to join my free email list to go talk to hundreds and hundreds of lawyers each and every week with actionable marketing and practice and tips.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.239
Thanks for listening.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.480
Look forward to collaborating with you.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.719
Was anyone teaching you this stuff about fanatical client communication, case grading?
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.360
You know, or were you did you kind of figure this stuff out by trial and error?
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.559
Um the stuff you keep saying, were you taught that or you sort of found that in your in your practice?
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.000
Well, you know, it's it's a uh it's a mix.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:41.599
Uh I was raised in a in a in a reading household.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:43.840
My mom was a voracious reader.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:49.920
I mean, she just uh goes constantly, and and she uh that was you know something that she passed on.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.679
And so I I've always been a reader since like young, young.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:41:17.840
And and um and so I really got in, I mean, just through always reading like business books and let me learn about this, and okay, you know what, and um let me go down the path of like there's gosh, there's so many great authors, and and you know, I try and I'm talking a bit, but I have a book coming out on trial guides.
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:20.559
But trial guides is such a great resource.
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:30.800
Like, I mean, every time they got someone coming out, I'll like I'll read so reading from what you know some of these uh great attorneys are doing and getting what they're doing to get results gives you ideas.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:37.360
And you know, a lot of times I'll read something that that some of those authors will put out and be like, okay, that's that's amazing and fanatical.
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:38.719
How can I scale that?
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:47.679
You know, getting uh, you know, always say, like, okay, if we have one of our attorneys that's you know really great at depositions and they're doing A, B, and C, that's awesome.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.960
We want each one.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:58.880
How do we how do we coach the other 49 attorneys to do those things on a in a systematic way, right?
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:09.760
And and so um a lot of things are concepts that you know you pick up from, okay, well, you know, the case coding, well, that's driven by the you know, Pareto principle.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.960
Well, that's driven by you know, there's books 8020 rule, or there's the books the one thing, right?
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:21.360
And there's um there's a bunch of books that talk about that concept, and then you work with some firms and you meet some, yeah.
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:27.840
That's a great thing when I'm working with firms, like yes, I'm bringing a lot to the table, I'm coaching them on a lot of concepts.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:33.840
Also, you meet some really, really amazing people that teach you some amazing concepts, and it just compounds, right?
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:38.880
And and so, you know, a mix of you know, again, reading fanatically.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.719
I I take notes on everything I read.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:48.800
There's a I have a website, it's the uh Dudley to bookshelf where you can go on there and see all my notes and summaries of all the books I read.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:49.679
That's awesome.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:43:10.239
Um but that process, going to conferences, you know, working with mentors, talking with people that are like-minded, and and kind of, you know, you know, I have no doubt if we spent, you know, uh if we got lunch together, I would learn a ton of things and and just being like, okay, being active about those, um, about that.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.400
And then then dots start connecting.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:22.960
Like, well, what if I took this concept and part of this thing, and and then all of a sudden you have this, um, then you get to try it out, and yeah, it w it's it just kind of compounds.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:23.679
I love it.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:29.679
You have access to a lot of firms because you're coaching a lot of firms, and you're you you're seeing how firms nationwide are doing it.
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.719
Back to the reading thing.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:32.960
I had Steve Mayer on two days ago on the show.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.719
He runs Sweet James, he said he reads between two and four hours a day.
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:37.599
Yeah, right?
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.679
Yeah, I mean, um, that's that's a common trait.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:52.079
This is very people that they're just because gosh, I mean, you get to hang out with with some really great people um you know, by by reading their book.
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:53.599
You know, yeah, yeah.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:44:00.559
I mean, you know, readers just and then when you combine reading graciously with not chasing money, but purpose and Impact.
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:02.239
You just you're off the races, right?
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.719
That's how you you know grow a from a hundred fifty paper.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.239
So um so talk about the book.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.280
You have the book coming out.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:10.320
Is it out yet or no?
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:11.039
And what's it called?
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.639
Um, no, it's coming out in uh in the next month or two.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.199
And it's called uh Seven Disciplines for Successful Firms.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:36.719
So what I did was, you know, over the years, gosh, I was probably like um I've worked with 250 plus firms, uh, planned firms across the country, everything from you know um a solo uh practitioner to firms that are massive, you know, yeah, signing up 1500 cases a month in multiple states and other kinds of right.
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.480
So I worked with everything in between.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:54.800
Um and there's while there's there are definitely differences amongst the firms, what uh I did for this book is if I could take seven things that that all the great ones do, um here's the seven things, you know, and let me share this.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.880
And and I put them in the book, talked about them when I work with firms, these are the things that I tried to lock down do.
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.760
Um you'll you'll you know recognize a lot of of these things.
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:11.599
Um, and so it's it's uh yeah, on trial guides, it's coming out in, like I said, in the next month or two.
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.440
And um excited about it.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:14.320
Yeah, no, you should be.
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.440
That's a big deal writing a book.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.639
That's a tremendous accomplishment.
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:19.679
So I'll be picking that I'll be picking that up for sure.
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:24.719
Um I so you you know, first of all, I work with Mickey.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:34.480
Mickey loves my coach, and she has been she has been enormously, prodigiously impactful on me because she just like rolls up her stays and gets stuff done, right?
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.000
Yeah, and so and so I just want to share, you know, she's gonna become on the show at some point.
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.920
So I love Mickey, she's been fantastic.
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.480
But you know, you and she speak the same language, right?
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:52.079
It's like the fundamentals we're talking about fanatical and coaching, but like the fundamental, you know, that the full block, the the fullback, you know, runs here, the block is here.
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.719
It's like tackling blocking, it's not that complicated.
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:58.559
Call your clients, case grade, and then work your best case.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.880
You know, the 5% gives you 50% of your income.
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:02.800
You're immersed in all these firms.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.559
What's your biggest frustration?
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.159
What's the common thing?
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:14.239
You just want to hit your head against the wall because like you keep seeing it happen, it's getting in the way of great owners from really unlocking great, you know, firm production.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.079
What are some common mistakes you see?
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:17.119
Oh gosh.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.719
Um, you know, I think so.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:28.159
Some of the, you know, one of the firm, another mentor would be Lee Coleman at Houston Coleman, just to, you know, gosh, and he's taught so many people in so many different firms.
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:39.440
Yeah, one thing I always admire about Lee is that regardless of how incredibly successful their firm has been and and how amazing that what they built, he's always looking to learn.
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.639
I mean, he just either always like he's like, tell me more about that.
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.920
Tell me, I've never heard him say we always do that.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:49.119
Yeah, you never I never hear him say, Okay, we do that right now.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:54.320
Yeah, so you know, I'm thinking about so that whenever I hear that at a firm, and I brought that up earlier.
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.559
I mean, it really is like, okay, I got work to do here.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:15.280
I mean, this is this is gonna be a tough one, versus someone that's like so but but you the other challenge is I I think you know, when you get the firm, I mean, gosh, I really I really get the fortune I work with some just amazing firms, and they're all like active learners.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:25.440
And I want to say the the biggest spot where firms struggle is I say that everything breaks every time you double, right?
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:28.400
And so a firm it's somewhere around okay, five people.
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.920
There's a couple things that happen.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:37.760
When you're five people and one owner, the owner is essentially at that point 20% of the culture, 20% of the vibe at the firm.
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:38.159
Yeah.
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:39.760
And you can you know everyone ended up.
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:41.039
So then you go to 10 people, right?
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:44.880
Now the now the owner is 10% of the culture of the people.
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:54.320
And that's an important statistic because that I think at all at all times um you gotta have at least 10% of your team that knows everything that's going on at the firm.
00:47:54.480 --> 00:48:02.239
They eat their culture, cultural ambassadors where they they act and move and think like the owner's core values.
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:08.320
And as you get as you get bigger, that 10% gets tougher to maintain, right?
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:10.000
And you gotta make sure that you're always investing.
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:23.679
Like, do I always have because one, they gotta have access to all the information because if you want them to make smart decisions, you can't hide you know 20% of the information from those guys and then expect them to make decisions like you do with 100% of the information.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:54.159
So you when I talk about scaling, so okay, you're you're humming along at you know 10 people, and now you get to 20 people, and you're starting to cook, and you're like, okay, and then the the sort of the fun phase of the firm is somewhere between 20 and 40 because you're like, you know everybody, the owner can still kind of like keep all their you know fingers and all the different things, go, hey, I understand there, I know this, and everyone's you know, husband, wife, kids, names, and we all the parties are kind of fun, and it still feels like a small little family.
00:48:54.400 --> 00:49:03.599
And the real grind is typically between when firms go to 40 to 80 people, um where you're growing, and all of a sudden it gets a little funky.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:20.880
And if you don't have good a good team, good systems and processes, um, good communication channels, then that's a lot of firms will get intimidated and like turn back around and go, I don't want to be, and they go, I don't want to be corporate, or I don't want to be, I don't want to be a big firm.
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:34.400
And it's not that they don't want to be a big firm, that they just associate it with chaos, working 100-hour weeks, um, feeling like out of con like they're not in control of every single aspect of it.
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:47.920
And there's ways to get over that hump, but I I see that's usually with the spot where a lot of firms either hit the wall or and go back or um really have a lot of get stuck there.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:58.400
You you talk a lot about, you know, when you get your arms around a firm and you start looking, you like to look at intake, setting case grades, and then setting a valley.
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.239
For someone who hasn't really heard those words before, what can the practitioner do today?
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:03.599
Quick wins we talk about, right?
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:04.400
What are some quick wins?
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:04.960
Absolutely.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.760
For example, where would you start?
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:08.719
Like if you had to start.
00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:21.840
Yeah, when when I go into a firm, um, and you know, we talked about, hey, there's there's no secret sauce, there's no magic bullet, you get like you really can there's three spots where in the first 90 days you can actually make some decent progress, right?
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:30.079
One is intake, where you go, and if you're messing up something in intake and you fix it tomorrow, um, you get to experience the benefit the next day, right?
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:41.039
If you uh improve your first call conversion, if you improve your um, you know, you're you're chasing down like what I'll call no contacts and make sure you're touching.
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:47.519
There's little nuances that you can go and tweak, and it's super, it's very satisfying because you see the result the next day, right?
00:50:47.920 --> 00:51:11.440
The second thing is that I'll see firms that that have a really weak or uh defective way that they they categorize their cases or grade their cases, or and I I talk about that uh a lot where you know the pretto point is true, like for most well, for healthy firms, typically 20%, the best 20% of their cases generate 80% of their revenue.
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.960
Um their best five percent of their cases generate 50% of the revenue, right?
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:28.880
And so when I look at a firm and and where those things don't necessarily hold up, there's usually reasons why, and and we gotta go find out like a lot of firms go, we don't get good cases.
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:37.599
That's great, you know, Chad and whoever else that you guys get these really, really great cases, but uh we don't, and that's why we haven't been able to grow.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.079
The reality is that you do have those good cases, and you're just not great at finding them.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:44.159
And it sounds harsh, but it's true.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.800
And so intake case grading is essentially let's make sure we have high visibility on our best cases because they're there.
00:51:53.280 --> 00:52:10.000
And then the last thing is let's make sure that we don't um undersettle our best cases tomorrow, which is um the concept of let's let's set target values for each and every case that is in a negotiation posture, right?
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:46.320
Um, because you know, if you look at a firm and say they have five attorneys, and say you give them all the exact same case, and one attorney gets$250,000 on that case, and the next attorney's getting$150,000, and the next attorney's getting$100, and maybe one day actually selling it for$75, the difference between what the most that we call the attorney with the highest credible risk tolerance of the firm, yeah, the difference between what they get and the lowest is a measure of inefficiency because our clients deserve to get the highest number if they have the same same case.
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:56.239
Now, I I get there's different low layers of coverage, but there's there's things that happen at a firm where there's there's people that are in silos and they're under under settling cases.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:08.239
And um, you know, I was working with a firm the other day and that you know just a young associate had a really, really good case, and they just were working in a silo, they didn't get a value assigned to it, and they took pennies on the dollar.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:08.719
Yeah.
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.239
Oh, you talk about attorney tiers.
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.800
Once you get a certain size of scale, you can have tiers, right?
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:38.639
Yeah, so and that's the other thing that very uh a somewhat controversial topic, but it it's a you know, it's a conversation that is uncomfortable for a lot of firms to have, but it's a necessary conversation, and that is can we just agree that our job as as attorneys for our clients is to get the absolute best result we possibly can as a firm, right?
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:54.400
And then can we also agree that there are some attorneys at the firm that have more experience, they've you know uh develop their skills more this more time of their craft, and they have a history of getting better results, right?
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.239
If we can't agree to that, then we're we're we're we're off, right?
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:05.599
But so if if we're this is our job and this is the truth, then can we can we have a conversation about who those are?
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:12.719
And and not to embarrass anybody and not to belittle anybody, but can we have that conversation for the sake of we owe it to our clients?
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:21.199
If a case looks like this, we want to pass the ball, pass the case to the person that is most qualified to get it to the finish line, right?
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.679
And with a great result.
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:30.559
And so we we developed these attorney tiers, and it was intended to be, you know, it's intended to be an objective way just to have that conversation.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:39.840
Tier five is is essentially an attorney that's gotten um three plus you know first chair jury verdicts of a million or more in the past you know five years.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:46.079
A tier one would be someone that is you know fresh out of law school and requires a lot of time, effort, energy, and attention.
00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:53.840
Um, you know, do do our tier fives walk around the office and knock the files out of the hand of the tier ones and you know, point at them and laugh?
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:54.239
No.
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.719
No charged with with coaching them up and helping them get reach their goals.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:19.360
But if there's not clarity about, hey, I gotta, you know, pass, I owe it to the client to pass the ball to one of our more qualified attorneys when it looks like this, then what you have is you're you're essentially trying to run a an offense where you have four people thinking they're the quarterback and no one wants to, you know, and it's chaos, right?
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:24.800
And and so firms that don't want to because here's how firms do it, right?
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:30.960
Firms are like, well, everyone knows who the good attorneys are, and everyone we haven't really talked about it, but we all kind of know.
00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:31.360
Yeah.
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:39.440
Then you know, you have a case and you move it from you know Joe to John, and then they all get mad because I know what I'm doing.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:41.920
And and so you have to have that conversation.
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.239
So we we developed this tier system.
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:52.159
Uh we have it again, it's in the effort of like, let's get the best result for our clients and let's just talk about this because if we don't talk about it, it's gonna be chaotic.
00:55:52.400 --> 00:56:06.400
And the other thing is if there's firms that don't have any tier four, tier five attorneys, you you can run a great firm, you just gotta attack it differently in the sense of like, can we just agree when it looks like this?
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:14.960
You should get a tier four, tier five associated on the case or refer or do so again, we owe it to the client to get a great result.
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:29.199
And if we're honest with ourselves that, hey, we don't got anybody, but we got this guy that wants to be one, well, pair them up with a really, really great attorney and let them follow them side by side and and and develop those skills so that one day they can be a tier five, right?
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:29.920
I love that.
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:36.239
It's yeah, you know, um, it's not about the lawyer not being up to stuff, it's about what what it requires.
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:42.400
I think it's I think a mentor of mine, Bill Biggs, talks about, you know, he has written down like this is what a tier five is, right?
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:43.760
They they do XYZ.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:44.880
So it's objective.
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.039
It's not like Chad, you're not you're not that.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:48.400
It's like, well, this is what it is.
00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:53.519
So then the honest conversation kind of almost handles itself, but you're still being brutally honest, right?
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:55.440
And so I think that's really important.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:04.880
You know, I I think a quick win as well for the practitioner who just maybe this is a fire hose of information on this call right now, um, is 8020, right?
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:09.039
And once this podcast ends, go to your go to your files, right?
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.840
There's 20% of them will bring you 80% of your revenue.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.199
I think we flip that, right?
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:16.800
As busy attorneys, we flip that and we're working our ass, are working 70 hours a week.
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:23.760
For less, yeah, it's all the same, but like, so you're you're getting a little, you're you're getting more tactical, strategic, right?
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:25.840
On a obviously very sophisticated level.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.519
You don't want to be that sophisticated to identify what are my top five percent.
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:35.760
I just made I may have just doubled my income this year by by doing that and better serve my clients because I can only do so much.
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.519
You know, am I from a great case?
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:38.639
Is it C minus case?
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:41.039
I can only do so much for the client.
00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:48.239
I'd love to work to help, but there's a there's a there's a minimum to there, there's a max to why I can get it for a C for a C minus graded case, right?
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:48.800
For an A.
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:51.840
I can do so much for that client.
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:56.639
And so, you know, I I I underscore to the listener, always do what's best for the client.
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.360
So you need to have that's our north north star.
00:57:59.519 --> 00:57:59.840
That's it.
00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:00.320
That's our own.
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:06.239
That's for the client, you win, you're gonna have a happier practice, you're gonna make more money, the client's gonna be, you know, raving fans.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:09.199
It's it's kind of simple because the stuff you preach is actually kind of simple.
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:16.239
It's hard stuff, but it's the fundamental, again, blocking and tackling that we get distracted, right?
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:17.360
We get dermed.
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:21.920
Yeah, I always say it's it's the fanatical consistent application of simple concepts.
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.000
Like if I say clients more, but yeah, no kidding, Chad.
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.280
Thanks, thanks for the advice.
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:34.320
But when I say, okay, let's let's really get fanatical about how we're gonna deliver on that and really break it down again.
00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:35.599
That's a different thing.
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:40.480
So it's a it's a simple concept, but it's it's the fanatical consistent application.
00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:43.519
And um, that's yeah, that's the you know, it happened the other day.
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:47.360
I was working with the firm and um we just started the grading process with him.
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:55.280
And so we went through and we we we found some cases that weren't on the radar that had the elements of being potentially really, really great cases.
00:58:55.440 --> 00:59:10.960
Um then one of them was in negotiation, and the goal, and this is um the goal of the attorney was a young guy, and he was doing everything that that he thought he's doing everything he could on this case, and he's gonna he wanted to go sell it for 500 grand.
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:19.360
Um, we fortunately had a couple of the other attorneys from this firm on the line that tried some cases, and they just this was under the radar, and now it's on the radar.
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:27.599
And they said, you know, we got um we had a total of 1.5 million coverage, and like this is a this is a policy limits case all day long.
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.000
Don't take anything less than 1.5.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:40.960
And then two weeks later, the the new attorney got 1.5 wonderful max limits, and and it just it blew their mind like, oh my gosh, how many of these are there in at our firm?
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:43.840
And it was just like that, boom.
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:53.119
I love that uh the client's better spot, the firm's in a better spot, and then you multiply that by a bunch of cases, and it it it makes a difference.
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:53.920
Big time.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:56.159
If you're talking about MSV, what's MSV?
00:59:56.719 --> 00:59:57.760
So we got this.
00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:01.599
Um, so we when we first started it, uh, we we called it MSV.
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:10.400
It were said, okay, this is our our minimum settlement value, and basically it's like we are this is the most aggressive number that we're gonna draw the line in the sand over.
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:15.440
Where if we don't get this, is we feel great about recommending this as a great result to the client.
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:19.119
If we don't get it, we're willing to go take the case to trial on this number.
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:30.480
Since that time, I have uh firms, you know, some people call it the FSV full settlement value, some people call it the maximum settlement value, some people call it the uh target res TRV target resolution value.
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:37.039
Basically, the goal is where are we going to draw the line in the sand on this case and let's make it make it aggressive?
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:47.360
And we also compare it to like a you know, we take all factors into consideration when we set that number, um, you know, coverage, liability, plaintive, venue, causation, etc.
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:52.000
And then we also assign another number that people don't talk about as much is top value.
01:00:52.239 --> 01:01:00.559
Top value is basically saying, okay, assume uh that we win on liability, clean causation, and we have unlimited coverage, what are the damages in this case worth, right?
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:10.239
And and I would argue the bigger the gap between MSV and top value is where this the skill of the attorney plays a big role.
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:11.599
You got a big liability issue.
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:13.679
Okay, we need some of our best attorneys on that.
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.480
We got a big causation issue, we need your best attorney on that, right?
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:18.000
Uh that kind of thing.
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:19.840
So I love that.
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:21.760
Chad, I really appreciate the wisdom.
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:28.400
Thank you so much for for teaching all of us for being willing to be so to be a giver, right?
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:31.440
And to share your your best tips, your best strategies.
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:32.800
That helps the whole bar.
01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:34.320
So I appreciate you.
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:36.079
How can people get in touch with you?
01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:40.800
Uh look, if you can email me at um cdudly at Dudleydevoter.com.
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:45.519
Uh that's D-U-D-L-U-I-D-E-B-O-S-I-E-R dot com.
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:46.400
So awesome.
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:47.679
Chad, I appreciate your time.
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:48.239
Thank you so much.
01:01:48.320 --> 01:01:49.440
Don't stop teaching.
01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:51.840
Uh, I'm excited to see what the next chapter holds for you.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:52.559
Super excited.
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:53.360
Thank you so much.
01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:54.159
Thank you.
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:54.719
Thank you.
01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:56.719
That's it for this episode of the early show.
01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:02.719
Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify at the podcast, the Answer Legal YouTube channel.
00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:03.200
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00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:46.320
Now let's get to the show.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.560
All right, hello, and welcome to another episode of The Early Show.
00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.200
It's sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal.
00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:58.640
I'm your host, Chris Early.
00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:00.719
I'm an injury lawyer in Massachusetts.
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.959
And as you know, on this show, The Early Show, we always bring you the best and the brightest.
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:06.239
Today's no exception.
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:09.599
We have the professor, Chad Dudley on the call.
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Thank you.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:11.760
Thank you for having me.
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:13.040
It's uh great to be here.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:15.359
Uh I'm a fan, so this is this is awesome.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:16.799
Oh, that's I appreciate that.
00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:18.719
So Chad is a cosmic giver.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.680
That's why he's so successful because he he shares everything he knows.
00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:23.519
And so that's what I really love about him.
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.959
So we're gonna get into a lot of stuff is always make sure you sharpen your pencils.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.560
We'll have plenty of writer-downers on this episode of the early show.
00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:32.159
So, Chad, welcome to the show, my friend.
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:32.879
Uh, thank you.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:33.200
Thank you.
00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:34.480
Good to be here.
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.920
So, can we I like to start the start with my guest, right?
00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.000
I like to start, you know, who's Chad Dudley?
00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.799
You know, going back, where did you grow up?
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:44.480
What kind of kid were you?
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:45.760
Yeah, take it back.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:46.560
I love it.
00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:46.959
I love it.
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:55.280
Um, gosh, you know, I was my family's from Southern California, uh, kind of up in the up in the desert area between uh Vegas and LA.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:02:00.319
And uh, you know, born there uh when I was about three, my family moved to Hawaii.
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.200
Uh my dad had spent some time growing up there as a kid.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:11.439
He thought it was a great place to raise a family, and so he and my mom just picked up and moved there, didn't really know anybody, or just one person maybe.
00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.800
And uh yeah, I grew up grew up in Honolulu.
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:28.159
I grew up playing a lot of tennis, first at the state level, then at the national level, got a pretty high national ranking, and then um got a scholarship to go to the Bolitary Tennis Academy when I was when I was about 14.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:35.759
And so I moved by myself uh to southern Florida to and now it's called IMG, the IMG Academy.
00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.919
I just read Andre Agassiz's uh autobiography, great book, open.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:41.680
Oh so good, yeah, so good.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:43.280
So Andre Agassiz he went there.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.639
He was there the same time I was there.
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:51.360
Uh Andre Agassi, okay, uh Pete Sampras, Monica Sellys, uh Anna Kornikova, Tommy Haas.
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:51.919
Wow.
00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:53.280
This goes on and on.
00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.479
It was like the heyday of the academy.
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.560
I mean, they just had uh amazing players all around.
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:02.159
And so it was a really great experience.
00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:10.719
We you know went to a little bit of school, played a lot of tennis, traveled, played tournaments, and and uh that's how I did, you know, finished up my high school there.
00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:15.199
I got recruited to play um tennis for LSU.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:22.080
Uh they were a top ten team in the country uh back in in that time and um still doing great today.
00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.680
And and uh played four years of college tennis.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:35.599
Uh I taught tennis for about uh a year and a half, almost two years after undergrad, and decided, you know what, I I wanna I think I want to go back to school.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:42.719
And I ended up uh going to law school and um got out and out of the gate.
00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:49.199
I you know, I I I clerked for one defense firm and I I was like, oh my gosh, this is this is terrible.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:52.400
This is terrible.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.120
And then I clerked for a plaintiff's firm and then I never looked back.
00:03:55.199 --> 00:04:00.560
I never I went straight out and been on the plaintiff's side, and um that's how I got, you know.
00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:07.520
I I I really, really enjoyed like when I started working for a plaintiff's firm, going, gosh, this is what I want to do.
00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:09.759
You know, you it's very tangible.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:15.680
You you know, people come to you that they have uh one of the toughest days in their lives.
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.319
Uh you get the opportunity to help them.
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:22.959
They're you know, just you can see a case from start to finish.
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:24.720
It was it was awesome.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:35.120
So I just uh and I can div dig into all that, but yeah, that's that's kind of how I ended up there and my journey to uh become the tennis success wasn't by accident, obviously.
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.160
So a lot of you know, the fact that you're playing with those guys and gals speaks volumes.
00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.399
What it as an aside, I love this is random.
00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.160
I love hiring people who are super competitive.
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:51.120
So to listen, but really I encourage hire people who like to compete.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:52.399
Anyway, I digress.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.639
No, I believe the same thing.
00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:02.639
It's just um, you know, there's a and I always say there's there's a difference between hating to lose and loving to compete, you know, like or being competitive.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:10.000
I think that no one likes to lose, and right, you know, you show up and and in the process of losing, no one's happy.
00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:21.360
However, a competitive person practices like prepares for the match and and puts the time, effort, energy because they're thinking about that match way before it happens.
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.879
Yeah, and they're doing all the things that it takes to show up and and do well.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.279
So by the time the match comes around, um, they're that's competitive, right?
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.079
Not not hitting to lose is just hitting to lose.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:32.879
Yes.
00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.839
What did high-level tennis teach you?
00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.519
What were the biggest takeaways?
00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:57.279
Um, gosh, you know, it it's the discipline of yeah, if you're trying to we would get up and we'd work out for an hour and a half, two hours, even even in high school, you know, an hour, two hours before school, you'd start and go to your classes, and then you're working out for you know another four to five hours and waits and running, and you're exhausted, and then you go study.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:06.639
And then every you gotta be super disciplined about your time and and also uh you just get a high tolerance for a certain level of hard work.
00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.199
You know, by the time I got to law school, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just all I have to do is go read and write.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:12.319
Just walk in the park.
00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:14.079
This is so much easier than undergrad.
00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:23.839
I mean, this was for me, it was a little bit different because it just yeah, I had you know done you know you work so hard and play so much, you're just constantly going 100 miles an hour.
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:29.120
Law school is a bit of a I'm not saying it's you know easy, but is is a lot chiller scheduled.
00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:29.920
Right, right.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.319
Undergrad because you were so used to really, really, really hard.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.839
Even law school is pretty doable because oh yeah.
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:44.480
I mean it it was a completely, I was like, oh gosh, I get to be in you know air-conditioned library where I get to study, and this is awesome.
00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:45.199
This is fantastic.
00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:46.240
I love tennis games.
00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:53.199
Um, because I taught, you know, you teaching tennis for eight or ten hours out in in South Louisiana is hot.
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:54.160
It can be hot.
00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.600
And and then before that, playing tennis, so you just kind of get used to a high level of work.
00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.279
And then I think there is a thing about just a uh resilience and competitiveness.
00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:13.680
I mean, you're just you know, you you when you're competing, you know, at that at a at any level, and you just you get used to uh keeping your head in the game and not getting you know because we all have setbacks, right?
00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.000
I mean, everything ever goes smooth.
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:20.240
You have this plan, and then you know, every plan is perfect until you get punched in the nose, right?
00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:40.079
And uh so the resilience and going, okay, you know, keeping your head on straight when you encounter adversity, and and you know, also coming against I think one of the cool things is like uh it teaches you to be to embrace a highly qualified competitor, right?
00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:42.720
I mean, versus being uh fearful of them.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:55.839
And because you realize like the the better competition you go up against the the people that you're around, whether you know they set a higher standard, and if you don't um look at it like, hey, this person's making me better.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.480
This is not a competitor, but they're really challenging me to be better.
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.279
I think that mentality is incredibly helpful.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:08.959
Um, and it served it served us well as we look at that like we're like, okay, you know what?
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.279
Let's let's learn from the people around us.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:12.480
What are they doing better?
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.120
I love that a lot of good things from from playing tennis.
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.920
Clearly, clearly, it kind of toughened you up a lot, it sounds like, right?
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.639
Like playing with some you know, high-level people, you just are forced to level your game literally, right?
00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:24.399
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:26.319
Because yeah, a hundred percent.
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.839
You know, you you you do well in your city and you go play a state tournament.
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:36.960
You do well in the state tournament, you play a regional, you play regional, you do national, and you do international, and you know, you kind of keep pushing.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:37.919
I love it, man.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.360
I I sincerely love that.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.919
So you you you you clerked and it love that you started doing plants work.
00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:45.679
Was that was that mass towards work?
00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:46.879
Is that what I saw?
00:08:47.440 --> 00:09:04.240
Yeah, so yeah, the uh I laughed the real quick story is like when I was coming out of law school that and I think I've told the story maybe, but um, I clerked at the defense firm, and it was the exact time where the defense firm was using books, and the um law school was using West Law.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:07.200
And so you could do way more research on West Law than you can.
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:08.080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:22.399
And we, you know, I had this stack of research assignments at the uh in the library at the defense firm, and you pick one and go do the research and then turn it in and turn in your hours, and it would drive me crazy to use the books because it was so slow.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:31.840
So I just grab a stack one day of all the research assignments, go to the library at the law school, use Westlaw, crank out my my uh memos, I turn them back in.
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.360
The partner the next day calls me and then goes, Hey, I need to talk to you about these, you know, these this research you did.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.360
And I go in, I'm like, Did I get it wrong?
00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:41.759
And he goes, No, you just you did it too quick.
00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:47.360
You gotta we gotta build the clients, we gotta build our you know, build our hours, we gotta go slower.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:50.399
I'm like, this is this this hurts my soul.
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:53.679
This is contrary to everything I've ever been about in my entire life.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.480
And if this is the career I've chosen, this is terrible.
00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:58.559
And I was kind of I really was bummed out.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:02.320
And so when that clerkship ended, I was like, man, what am I gonna do?
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:08.960
I'm doing this thing, and if this is what it's like, because I'm the first attorney of my my from my family, and and so I had no idea like what they do.
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:14.960
And then um, I had a buddy that was in a plants firm, and we got out and like, no, we don't we don't bill hours and we just gotta win.
00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.080
And you know, and I was like, Oh, I can get behind this.
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:18.720
This is great.
00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:19.360
Right, right.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:29.440
And then I took a job, and uh yeah, my first my first gig was a um project case, was a um uh toxic tort case in North Louisiana.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:40.799
And they uh, you know, I was um there's a there's 4,000 plaintiffs, and they're exposed to some chemicals from this um railroad company.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:46.399
And uh yeah, I was in charge of just like learning about all those clients, you know.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:55.360
And yeah, it was I remember um again, uh my counterpart on the defense side was a really great attorney, really awesome.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.200
And I was like, this attorney knows more about my clients than I do.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:00.559
This this cannot be.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:07.200
And so finally I was like after one of um our meetings, I just went up and asked her, I said, Look, I'm impressed.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.559
You you're really how do how do you keep track of all of our clients?
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:21.039
Because she showed me kind of what she was doing, she built this little database thing, da da da and I like all right, I'm off off to the races, I'm gonna go learn how to build a database and learn SQL and all this kind of stuff.
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:33.360
And I so I went down that path, and that really got me into the sort of data tracking tech side of law firms, and that was the you know, and and constantly trying to learn from that moment on.
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:42.080
And and but that was a that was an interesting case, and it it very learned so many things on that case, and um very grateful for that experience.
00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:49.519
So if I'm hearing you correctly, you saw that defense lawyer operating at a high level, and you're like, Yeah, and that kind of activated you almost, right?
00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:58.639
That there was always because I yeah, I'm always like, gosh, someone's doing good and doing something better, and right, right, just go ask, like, oh yeah.
00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.480
Sometimes they tell you and sometimes they don't, and then there's no harm in it, right?
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.360
And I want to be better at my craft, I want to be a better attorney.
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.600
This person's doing some good stuff, let me go find out.
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.639
And um, yeah, again, she was kind enough to just walk me through.
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:11.519
Here's here's how I did.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.440
I was like, wow, okay, and that helped uh change my career.
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:16.240
That's all right.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:17.840
So, how old are you at that point?
00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:24.480
Um, gosh, I must have been um this was maybe 25-ish.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:25.360
25.
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:26.559
Yeah, okay.
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.639
You're still you're still pretty pretty young.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.279
So, how long did you stay at that firm for?
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:34.879
I was with that firm for probably about three or four years.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:35.759
Three or four years.
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:37.440
Covering your teeth, getting good.
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.039
I had some really great mentors there, um, just awesome people.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.120
It was really just really great people, people I still stay in touch with today.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:45.759
Cool.
00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:51.200
And um great trial attorneys, uh, just great attorneys, period.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.320
And it was awesome because you know, the importance of having a mentor, right?
00:12:54.399 --> 00:13:01.600
I mean, they can a good mentor uh can really accelerate your development in in so many ways.
00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:09.120
Because you can, you know, um we're there's a lot of smart people and they can figure out how to get from point A to point B.
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:14.000
Uh, but gosh, with the right mentor, you can figure it out in a tenth of the time.
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:18.159
I wish I knew that years ago, but I'm I'm I I hear you 100%.
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.200
So you're about 30 when you left that that firm?
00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.440
Yeah, about about yeah, probably about 30-ish.
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:24.399
Where'd you go then?
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:33.120
So then, so I was doing uh doing toxic torts, doing um asbestos uh type litigation.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.200
Um again, these massive cases.
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:50.639
I remember I, you know, uh my Monday mornings would be these exception hearings and down in the you know courthouse, and I would be there on behalf of on 20 different cases, and just from go from courtroom to courtroom to courtroom to you know these different hearings.
00:13:50.720 --> 00:14:03.360
And so I did that, and then after that, I'm like, okay, this is great, but I'd love to really do like you know, single event where it's you know one plaintiff or you know, and there's one and more traditional personal injury.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:03.679
Right.
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:11.759
And so I found a firm uh is a smaller boutique firm, but some again, some really, really great attorneys.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:22.960
Um and I've been fortunate just out of the gates, uh plaintiffs' firms that were took pride in their craft and really cared about their clients.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:40.399
Yep, very just like doing it, doing it for the right reasons, and and so I went to a firm um boutique firm that um just really just getting some really great verdicts, uh did great trial work and spent some time there.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:54.799
And uh it was cool because I got there, I kind of had this database sort of tech background going, and then really spending time with those guys on on not mass tort cases, not toxic tort, not these, you know, where there's a thousand plaintiffs, but where there's one plaintiff.
00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:55.039
Yeah.
00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.440
Um, learned a lot from them.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:02.399
And then also they said, Hey, you you can you help us organize our office?
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.720
Because the skill set that you bring to the table is you know, keeping track of a lot of stuff.
00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:07.600
They liked it.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:08.240
They liked it.
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:08.960
Yeah, they liked it.
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:18.799
So I got kind of into the the law firm practice side, like the operational side to some degree, and how do we get case in the door and tracking?
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:20.559
So I really went down that path.
00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:28.559
And then um, and then there was a um another personal injury firm that was doing their advertising firm.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:36.799
They were um you know doing way more cases, and they had you know heard what I was doing.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:43.600
I went and spent some time with them, and they said, look, come on board, be more of a COO type role.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:50.480
Yeah, handle some cases, and I did for you know, I continue to handle some cases, but also more of the operational side of the firm.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.679
And and you know, you talk about mentors.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:05.360
Um, I I I through that met a bunch of mentors that helped me with accelerate my my knowledge about how to how to run law firms, and that was huge.
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.360
You you you as one mentors a few times, right?
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:08.960
Encourage the audience, get a mentor, right?
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:14.080
Oh my gosh, like like what I don't, I mean, you know, we all need a coach.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:20.879
And you're going like I just think about so you know, now my my my most recent obsession is pickleball.
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:25.759
I've been playing a lot of pickleball, and to the hardcore tennis players, they they they can take some offense at that, but it's fine.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.559
Any rackets work.
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:44.159
But the point was, you know, I was I was the other morning, I was playing early in the morning with somebody, and on the court next to us was this guy, and he was practicing his serve, and I was watching him practice his serve, and he was there early in the morning and he practiced his serve for an hour, but it was completely wrong.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.320
His grip is wrong, his stroke is wrong.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:51.200
It was, I mean, he just was reinforcing a bad habit for an hour.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:17:05.119
And I was like, man, it made me think like there's so many people out there that were like, hey, I'm up early, I'm putting in the time, I'm putting in the reps, but if you're doing it completely wrong or going down the incorrect path, you're not helping, and you're going backwards.
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.920
And had that guy just had a coach out there with him, it would have been so much more productive.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.519
We do that so many times in our in our own world.
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.880
And I think the most you know, you get a coach, get get someone to work with you, get a mentor.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.359
Um, there's a bunch of different ways to do it, but you know, if you're stubborn and want to figure it out on your own, you you you'll probably get there.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:30.000
You're just you're gonna take you know years instead of many, many years.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:38.000
Yeah, and it's just not it's just sometimes somebody says something, and yeah, that's been a big you know, it's no secret.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.799
I tell people, yeah, that you should do that, and it helps.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:44.720
You strike me as a guy who who gets, you know, you're dialed in, right?
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:53.519
Like you're you're you're you were are not like allowed, you know, like arrogant guy, like you're you're humble student and you're always seeing knowledge, right?
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.279
That's what I see, you know, from you.
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:56.400
It it jumps off the page.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:57.440
Are do you still get coaching?
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:58.480
Do you still have mentors now?
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.480
Oh yeah, I'm always, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.599
Um, I think you had Cameron Harold on here um recently.
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.200
He's a he's awesome, great.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:16.720
Uh there's different different uh mentors in different stages of life, um, where it might be about this thing at one point, and and at another point it might be this thing.
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:36.400
And so over the years, you know, continuing to to reach out and um just work with different people and and and you know, I think when I'm talking with someone, the the most dangerous phrase that has killed more firms than any other phrase is we're doing that.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:37.839
We're already doing that.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:38.640
Yeah.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:53.359
So like if I um you know, if I say, hey, uh, you know, you should have a um you should have a client communication plan for all your clients, and you should be intentional about it, and you should measure it, you should um you know be fanatical about it.
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.160
And you saying, uh, we do that right, we talk to our clients.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.240
Like it kills this whole thing, you can't learn something that you already know.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:00.720
Nope.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:12.480
And there's a difference, like all the there's so many um benefits, like all the benefits of the things that we do are not from just implementation, but fanatical implementation.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.880
And so if you're doing something at like 80% or 85%, you're telling them, hey, we already do that.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.720
We're like, okay, you might be.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:28.720
But um, you know, getting fanatical about it and doing it at 95 to 100%, all the the the benefits just multiply exponentially.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.680
And that's something that is probably lost.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.559
Like people, it doesn't quite resonate all the time.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:59.839
Like, okay, you kind of call your clients, but you don't measure it, and this other person has a very meticulous, like when the client sends a contract, they're gonna hear from this person within 12 hours of this, and then you know, they're gonna get this message by this person, and then they're gonna get something sent to their house, and then they're gonna get a follow-up call, and then they're gonna, you know, through the entire life of the case, and we're gonna measure it and have dashboards, and we're not only gonna have dashboards, we're gonna hold people accountable.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:04.960
Um, not from uh you know, hitting them with the stick, but from a point of like we want to be excellent at what we do.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.119
Like there's a different piece, right?
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:13.759
And so whenever someone goes, Hey, we're already doing that, I'm like, like, I'm a lifelong student, I'm always learning.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:19.279
I've I've worked with some really amazing, incredible firms.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.480
And and yeah, I mean, you're just you're drinking from a fire hose and you're learning a bunch of stuff while you're teaching.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.000
I've also worked with some firms that aren't so great, but I've still learned from them, you know, because you just gotta have that mentality.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:36.480
I've been to good conferences where you learn a bunch of stuff, and I've been to eh, okay conferences, but I've still learned.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:42.559
And just actively having that mentality is is I think the way you gotta be.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.960
It's just it's a better way to go through life to you, right?
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:45.440
I love it.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.200
I'm shaking my head, you're speaking my language.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.079
So you said you said fanatical invitation a lot.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.599
Like I'm fanatical about my firm's growth, doing it the right way, right?
00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:03.440
Because it sounds like you sometimes we stumble, like you sort of like you know, stumbled into favorable positions by intentional discipline.
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:08.079
It wasn't random, but like you kind of just like were open, you found your way to where you belong, right?
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.839
It seems like you're operating today, like where you belong, like high-level law firm.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.960
But you had to start as a you were a nobody, like no one, you were a great testimony, but you as a lawyer, like no one really knew who you were.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:17.920
Yeah, right.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.160
Opportunities all around us every single day.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:20.799
Right.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.480
Um because there's so many things that like it could occur.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:42.400
Um, you know, you just think about like, and then you know, there's a saying that you know opportunities multiply as they're seized, and it's so true in the sense of like, you know, I talk to younger attorneys and they're they're getting started in their career, and um any of my my sons and you're like, Hey, I you know, I want this this dream job.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.480
Uh my sons are they're uh 25 and 22.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.119
Okay.
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:48.880
Are they in the law or no?
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.319
No, they're they're in the they're the tech computer programmers.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:53.759
Uh well they're very smart.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.720
Yes, yeah.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:01.200
So they they like that piece, and and I talked to them and and I say, you know, like when you Start off your career.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:07.359
Um, you're lucky if if if maybe 10% of what you do on a day-to-day basis you're really in love with, right?
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.640
And you got this 90%, like you just gotta do it, right?
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:18.559
And hopefully during the course of your career, the amount of things that you know, your day that 10% grows, and maybe it gets up to 80, 9%.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:20.079
But you know, there's always stuff that you run into.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:21.519
Like, I wish I'd have to deal with that.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.039
But for the most part, I'm I'm really fortunate for what I look at my schedule each day and go, oh, that's all right.
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.880
I get to talk to these people, I get to do this thing, and and it clearly lights them up.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:31.359
Clearly.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.359
Yeah, and cool.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:40.559
And when you start off, you just gotta go, okay, um expand the your job description, so to speak.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:45.279
Like, hey, I get paid to do A, B, and C, but let's look for the things that I really love.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:50.160
And don't I know it's easy to say now, but like you can't get, are they gonna pay me to do that?
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.680
Are they, you know, like go talk to somebody and go, hey, do you need help with that project?
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.319
I'm not, I don't care if I get paid extra.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.079
I'm I want to go do this thing as my career.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.920
This person's doing it at a high level.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.400
I'm gonna go hang out with them and and see how I can help and how I can learn.
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:13.039
And by you know, constantly kind of reaching out and and improving your craft, um, it opens up other opportunities.
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:22.640
And you didn't even know you're you're training for this interview, but because you did these things, you're you're more in a and all of a sudden you find yourself doing more of the things you like.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.599
And so I really do believe that opportunity is all around the list.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.920
And uh I'm with you.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:38.720
So you you dropped this this phrase, which I really struck with me, not hitting with a stick, but rather like how uh leveling people up in a positive way, empowering people.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:39.599
Could you talk about that?
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.519
Because sometimes at our firms, things don't go according.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.400
We go to a conference, we want to do it this way, our team doesn't do it.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:51.200
I love that not beating with a stick, but like really like empowering, demonstrating pursuing excellence.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:57.920
How should lawyers have those conversations with their team members when things are falling apart and not easy?
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:03.200
You know, I think about when I when I was playing on um you know the team at LSU, right?
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:12.880
And so you need six people to play on the team, and then you have typically two people that are you know there if someone uh is injured or something happens or whatever, right?
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:42.400
And the the idea was I remember like the concept being you know, if if we beat, if we're just hard on everybody on the team, especially the two guys that are waiting to come in, like if we don't if we beat them down so much every day, hey, you missed this shot, you didn't do this thing, you're slow, when it's time for them to step up and play, their their confidence is gonna be so low, they're gonna feel beat down.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:58.400
And and so, in a similar way, if if the goal is we want to create a great firm and people that that are confident in who they are and confident in their ability to do the job, we have to coach them up and not keep picking at them, keep beating them, right?
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:10.640
I mean, we need to empower them and give them those tools um because when they it's when they're called on to step up and play, uh, we need them in a in a feeling good about themselves and feeling good about their skill set.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:27.279
And so that's why, you know, you can kind of like you know, you can talk about a dashboard and and sometimes when I work with firms, I'm like, okay, we're gonna go monitor these, you know, these key performance indicators, and they're like, okay, I'm gonna go get on Susie, I'm gonna go get on John and really wear them out.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.920
I'm like, no, let's let's let's let's own it.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.839
Like, what are we doing that is allowing this?
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.920
Are we not giving them the tools?
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:42.319
We're not training them, you know, let's assume that everyone here wants to be great at their job.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:47.200
And until we have you know indisputable evidence otherwise, let's just assume that they want to be great at the job.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:48.640
What is the rub here?
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:55.519
And as leaders and coaches, we gotta own it and figure it out and work with it and and and get to the bottom of it.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.640
If we just say, hey, they don't want to, you know, they're terrible.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.000
Susie, then that's that's lazy coaching, right?
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:03.039
Totally, totally.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.039
Andrew Finkelstein, he's been on the show.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.400
He said something that's awesome.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.920
I've learned so much from that guy that guys.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.519
He's another professor, yeah, so generous, teacher.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.480
But he said, I assume positive intent, and that rings in my ears every day.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:17.759
And I literally talk about that with my team.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.880
I assume positive intent.
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.039
You know, Chad didn't mean to screw up that demand.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.759
He just maybe I didn't coach Chad enough or whatever, right?
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.880
Like, so you keep saying the word coach, I love that because that's what it is.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.599
Like you're you're running a football team or a tennis team.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.119
That's like we are we're coaching or players.
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:38.640
We need to, there's it's like psychology, it's it's it's so there's so many disciplines.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.160
And like we didn't really, a lot of us didn't get trained on how to coach people.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:48.799
So a lot of us yeah, it's like it's so hard because if you press the right button, off the races.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.960
If you unwittingly press the wrong button, it's like disaster central.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.920
So like you gotta be so you can you gotta know your people and and know what how to when to press the button.
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.880
Um when, but that's it's so tricky.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.400
So I I like what I was just writing down, you know, not hitting with the stick, but rather coaching up, hey, let's do better next time, Chad.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.240
Let's, you know, you're doing such a good job, right?
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:14.400
And it's just I find it to be a challenge sometimes because like you, high performance, high demanding, I want it done this way.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.480
And so not everyone, you know, we're human and stuff.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.039
Cameron Harrell will say we're all human here, things happen.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.400
So, you know, we're not just looking for perfection, we're looking for greatness.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.839
And the more you can coach effectively, the more greatness you're gonna get out of your team, right?
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:45.200
And it's it's challenging because you look at you know, uh, you look at professional, oh, you know, first of all, if it if it if it's a professional team, then they've gone through you think about all that they've gone through high school, they've gone through college, they they they these people know what they want to do and and they want to win a championship, and it's very clear.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.440
And sometimes we don't necessarily do that with our law firm.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.480
Like, what are we doing this for?
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:49.519
Like, what are we trying to do?
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:50.880
How good do we want to be?
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:52.720
Um, what are what are our aspirations?
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.319
And we don't maybe have those conversations.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:07.200
The other thing that's challenging is that even in the professional teams, they have a they had one, the career, like there's a you know, I think for football, it's like three to five years of the average career and resource sports.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:13.680
Yeah, they're not, you know, you think about the career of someone at our firm, and we hope that it's decades, right?
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:20.319
And and you're talking decades, and then you're also talking about um there's no off season off-season, right?
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:27.680
Like for a sports team, they have, hey, we go super, super crazy hard, and then we get a little bit of a break, and then kind of get back in training and we ramp up for the year.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:42.480
Yeah, there's this there's shorter careers, and then there's off-seasons, and that's the challenge with you know, our teams is like, how often do we, all right, the goal for this year is that, and then you hit it, and then the next year starts immediately, and we're all at it again.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.279
How do you give people a break?
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:51.359
Or um then how do you keep them motivated for not not three to five years, but for decades?
00:28:51.599 --> 00:29:01.359
And it's it's a it's a challenging thing to be a good coach, a good leader, and I'm still learning on how to do it better.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:05.759
And you probably look back on things you did 10 years ago and go, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did it, I did it that way.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.279
That's part of it, right?
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:07.680
Two years.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.480
I hope yeah, two years last week.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:21.519
And yeah, so it's uh but again, I think that's a a core component of it is okay, can we just and that's again another team thing, just assume positive intent.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:22.640
Like, you know what?
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:29.599
We're I remember like you're we're playing a match and then you're playing doubles, and all sorts of stuff is gonna happen during the course of the match.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.839
Like you're the other team can play really, really well.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.880
Maybe it's a day that your partner's not playing up you know their best, maybe it's a day you're not playing your best.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.359
But if we start picking on each other, hey, you missed that shot, I can't believe it, you suck.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:42.799
Or that was unheard of.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:48.079
Like that was an unspoken rule of like you are there to lift them up and get their head back in the game.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:53.279
Because if you start piling on, it just all comes unraveled so quick.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:04.079
And and so, you know, same thing with our our team at the firm is like, okay, we need to build them up, we need to get pick them up, we need to like, you know, and and so that's the mentality.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.440
I love that, man.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:09.119
So you you found some passion, you know, doing single event stuff.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:09.599
You like that?
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:18.720
Sound sounds like more than the miss tort because you could really kind of get more maybe intimate with the client and just you know, more, more, more hands-on, uh helping real you know, people individually.
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.680
So then how did you get where'd you go then?
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.119
Like, did you guys did you then when did you find W debauge?
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:26.160
Like, what where where did you go?
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:26.880
What showed you?
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:31.440
So we had actually, you know, um my partners and I all worked for a firm.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:40.799
And and then this is a um, so you know, we all I was the COO handling a few cases, and my two partners were the trial attorneys at the firm.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.759
Yeah, and then one day the two and we were all happy.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.160
I was I was enjoying the firm, life was good.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:54.319
That um my two partners were trying the cases, they were enjoying what they're doing, and when the two partners came in and go, Hey, look, um, we have some bar issues.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:56.319
We're gonna Oh really, yeah.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:05.920
They they just came in and you know, and it was a they they just it was awkward, and they said, Hey, look, we're we might have some trouble, we don't think it's gonna be a big deal.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:27.359
Um but we're we're letting you know, and then like not not short thereafter, they were disbarred, and they were disbarred for um is that probably like a decade prior to that, they had shared um, they had done a instead of program whereby uh legal assistance, if they settled a case pre-suit, they would get a percentage of the you know of the of the fee.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:35.200
Ten years later, you know, the the bar uh basically delivered the their you know judgment on that.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:40.880
And so we were sitting there and we're like, gosh, do we it was a strange thing, do we um try and keep this thing going?
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.039
Do we all go work for other firms?
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.920
Do we go try and you know start our own firms?
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:54.640
And uh we really believed in the team that was there, you know, and um said, all right, let's go form we're gonna keep this thing going, form Delhi DeBozure.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:59.599
And it was a really, really tough um couple years.
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.279
I mean, where you know that we weren't getting nearly as many calls.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:14.880
And um and at that point, um, so back this back in 2009, uh, I really had my first consulting client.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:23.359
Uh so I I've been doing some database stuff and dashboards and that kind of stuff, and and one firm called me up and said, Hey, can you come help us out?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.839
It's my very first okay, boom, I'm in.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:26.319
That's cool.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:34.640
And so first Vista Consulting was formed back in 2009, and then um we started Delhi Devotion in 2009.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:42.000
And so both were off the ground and just hustling, just trying to like hopefully they both, you know, go great.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.640
Uh, but it was definitely a grind.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:50.799
Um, and I learned so much during you know those early years, got to make a bunch of really, really great relationships.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:57.039
That was back when there was no consultants, there's no, you know, no coaching.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.079
I think uh Atticus was I think they might be the OGs.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.599
They were out of Florida, Mark Powers and those guys who are amazing.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:23.759
Um, they may have been the only other ones, and so we got going, a whole new space, and um the firm grew, Vista grew um with Tim Mackey, who's uh just an awesome close friend and also uh mentor and uh just just an incredible person, human being.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:30.160
And then um, and so we just kind of we grew broke both, and then the law firm started to get traction, and Vista got traction.
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:49.200
And then in um 2018, the um the the advertising agency that we were using as a firm, uh the the owner, uh Arnie uh Malheim, another awesome person in industry who we learned a bunch of stuff from, uh said, Hey, look, I'm thinking about selling the agency.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:50.799
And we said, Who to who?
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.960
And he said, uh just you know, uh some guys that want to buy it.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.799
And I was like, Well, can we buy it?
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.319
What if what if we bought it?
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.599
And so we bought CJ Advertising 2018.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:11.760
I got out of this at that point, uh, turned it, you know, Tim took it over completely at that point, and so uh we started, you know, trying to help firms grow.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.320
And and it was really the first time.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:24.639
Um, so we approached it from we're not gonna just help firms get more cases in the door, but we approached it from a very operational driven standpoint.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.559
So Mickey Love, who's incredible, came on board and and she had worked with us in Vista and she's part of Vista.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.559
But when we bought CJ Advertising, um, she was you know, ran CJ.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.360
We worked with her to help grow firms.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.800
We had a bunch of firms just have some tremendous growth.
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:47.840
So working with them operationally and helping them get more cases in the door.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.639
I saw a ton of clients um do that.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.639
And at the time, that was a very novel idea.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:03.519
So there wasn't a bunch of you know uh consulting agencies out there, uh, and there the advertising agencies did not offer any of that, right?
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:38.960
And so, and then now I think every every agency has like operational arm, and there's a million mastermind groups, and there's um too many, yeah, there's too many conferences, and but back in back then it was like all pretty pretty new, you know, and uh and so it was cool to kind of like you know start some of these trends and get you know get get that stuff going and uh yeah, so then um we we just uh grew the agency, um continue to work with firms, and um we just sold the agency maybe six six months ago.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.400
And uh fantastic.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:44.800
I'm curious going back a little bit with Delhi DeBoosh, you guys start the firm, right?
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.000
You said it was hard.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:49.440
So what what were some things you did well looking back like geez?
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.920
I'm glad we did that because obviously things are working out, it just wasn't immediate.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:08.480
Yeah, you know, we we're um so when we when we first um started the firm in 2009, you know, there's some really you know um very well-funded competitors that were there, and we just couldn't compete with them financially.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:18.800
Like we're just such a we were a small player in the market, and we're just uh and we're looking around going, gosh, how do we even start to where do we how do we start to chip away at this huge task?
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.119
And you know, you zero in on the things you have control over, and we said, okay, you know what?
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:31.679
If um we're gonna we we're gonna be excellent at client service and at the results that we get for our clients.
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:39.920
If we're gonna get fanatical about that piece, and we said uh, you know, look, we're gonna talk to our clients more than every other firm.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:45.599
Uh we went to a spot where like, okay, every seven days we're gonna you know make sure that they're hearing from us.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.840
And then um we realized that there's a there's a point of diminishing returns that the clients were like, hey, why are you calling me again?
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:58.719
Okay, we prefer that versus um, you know, I never hear from you because that was the that was the big complaint, right?
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.880
And we want to have you know meaningful, intentional communication with the client, not just like, hey, how are you doing?
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:09.039
Okay, see you bye, but really get to know them um and then meet their needs, right?
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.760
And and so we got fanatical about that.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.360
We got fanatical about breaking down every part of the case and going, how do we get a better result here?
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.280
How do we do this more efficiently?
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.559
How do we um increase the the result that we get for our clients?
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:30.159
Um, and we're like, okay, we're gonna make sure that they all know that we're their attorney and they they can reach us and get answers real quick.
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:43.840
And in addition to that, we're gonna push to get the best results with possible and uh and you know, like there's some firms that like we got my you know, my two partners are just really great trial attorneys, and we have a bunch of other attorneys at the office that are really, really great trial attorneys.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:38:05.119
That's just an awesome um I mean such an awesome advantage to have because you know some firms have to you know refer those cases out or they have to bring someone in or whatever, and and having those, you know, just some really great trial attorneys all throughout the firm makes everyone better and really helps everyone push to get you know good good results for their clients.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:25.840
And and so as we were doing these things, um and really fanatically, we just saw gosh, the number of referrals go in, and you know, then we start reinvesting the f we reinvested in the firm where okay, we could have taken a profit of this, but you know, let's put it back into growing the firm and repeating that, you know, year over year.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:41.119
And again, I mean the role of mentors, I mean, just being intentional, you know, each year we'd sit down and um we'd you know, the Cameron Harold vivid vision sit down and go, hey, what what do we want this to look like in every year?
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.960
What do we want it to look like three years from now?
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.199
Now I spoke with Cameron, he says, that's not how you're supposed to do it.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:49.440
You're supposed to do like, but the concept being, what are we trying to build?
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:59.119
And and really taking the time and not just aimlessly working, you know, in the firm, but really stepping out and going, okay, what are we trying to build?
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:00.000
What does it look like?
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.760
What do we want to be a part of?
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.920
If our family, our friends, you know, interacted with our firm, what would we want that experience to look like?
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.760
And and putting it on paper and sharing that with people around us.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:16.159
And and that, you know, nothing's there's no magic bullet.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:25.199
There's no like super, it's just consistent, high-intensity, intentional um effort over long periods of time.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:27.920
And how big is Delly De Boiser today?
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:36.320
Um, we have a we have about 150 total employees and then have um about 50 attorneys.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:38.320
Hey everyone, it's Chris.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:47.280
If you ever have a personal injury case here in Massachusetts that you can't take on or just want to refer out to a trusted firm, my team and I would love to work with you.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:57.840
Since 2004, I've only practiced personal injury law, and my team and I pride ourselves on handling referrals with transparency, good communication, and care for your clients.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:03.920
And if you're not already getting it, head on over to practicetipofheek.com.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:15.039
Practicetifoftheweek.com to join my free email list to go talk to hundreds and hundreds of lawyers each and every week with actionable marketing and practice and tips.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.239
Thanks for listening.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.480
Look forward to collaborating with you.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.719
Was anyone teaching you this stuff about fanatical client communication, case grading?
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.360
You know, or were you did you kind of figure this stuff out by trial and error?
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.559
Um the stuff you keep saying, were you taught that or you sort of found that in your in your practice?
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.000
Well, you know, it's it's a uh it's a mix.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:41.599
Uh I was raised in a in a in a reading household.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:43.840
My mom was a voracious reader.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:49.920
I mean, she just uh goes constantly, and and she uh that was you know something that she passed on.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.679
And so I I've always been a reader since like young, young.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:41:17.840
And and um and so I really got in, I mean, just through always reading like business books and let me learn about this, and okay, you know what, and um let me go down the path of like there's gosh, there's so many great authors, and and you know, I try and I'm talking a bit, but I have a book coming out on trial guides.
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:20.559
But trial guides is such a great resource.
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:30.800
Like, I mean, every time they got someone coming out, I'll like I'll read so reading from what you know some of these uh great attorneys are doing and getting what they're doing to get results gives you ideas.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:37.360
And you know, a lot of times I'll read something that that some of those authors will put out and be like, okay, that's that's amazing and fanatical.
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:38.719
How can I scale that?
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:47.679
You know, getting uh, you know, always say, like, okay, if we have one of our attorneys that's you know really great at depositions and they're doing A, B, and C, that's awesome.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.960
We want each one.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:58.880
How do we how do we coach the other 49 attorneys to do those things on a in a systematic way, right?
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:09.760
And and so um a lot of things are concepts that you know you pick up from, okay, well, you know, the case coding, well, that's driven by the you know, Pareto principle.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.960
Well, that's driven by you know, there's books 8020 rule, or there's the books the one thing, right?
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:21.360
And there's um there's a bunch of books that talk about that concept, and then you work with some firms and you meet some, yeah.
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:27.840
That's a great thing when I'm working with firms, like yes, I'm bringing a lot to the table, I'm coaching them on a lot of concepts.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:33.840
Also, you meet some really, really amazing people that teach you some amazing concepts, and it just compounds, right?
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:38.880
And and so, you know, a mix of you know, again, reading fanatically.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.719
I I take notes on everything I read.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:48.800
There's a I have a website, it's the uh Dudley to bookshelf where you can go on there and see all my notes and summaries of all the books I read.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:49.679
That's awesome.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:43:10.239
Um but that process, going to conferences, you know, working with mentors, talking with people that are like-minded, and and kind of, you know, you know, I have no doubt if we spent, you know, uh if we got lunch together, I would learn a ton of things and and just being like, okay, being active about those, um, about that.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.400
And then then dots start connecting.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:22.960
Like, well, what if I took this concept and part of this thing, and and then all of a sudden you have this, um, then you get to try it out, and yeah, it w it's it just kind of compounds.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:23.679
I love it.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:29.679
You have access to a lot of firms because you're coaching a lot of firms, and you're you you're seeing how firms nationwide are doing it.
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.719
Back to the reading thing.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:32.960
I had Steve Mayer on two days ago on the show.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.719
He runs Sweet James, he said he reads between two and four hours a day.
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:37.599
Yeah, right?
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.679
Yeah, I mean, um, that's that's a common trait.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:52.079
This is very people that they're just because gosh, I mean, you get to hang out with with some really great people um you know, by by reading their book.
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:53.599
You know, yeah, yeah.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:44:00.559
I mean, you know, readers just and then when you combine reading graciously with not chasing money, but purpose and Impact.
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:02.239
You just you're off the races, right?
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.719
That's how you you know grow a from a hundred fifty paper.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.239
So um so talk about the book.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.280
You have the book coming out.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:10.320
Is it out yet or no?
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:11.039
And what's it called?
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.639
Um, no, it's coming out in uh in the next month or two.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.199
And it's called uh Seven Disciplines for Successful Firms.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:36.719
So what I did was, you know, over the years, gosh, I was probably like um I've worked with 250 plus firms, uh, planned firms across the country, everything from you know um a solo uh practitioner to firms that are massive, you know, yeah, signing up 1500 cases a month in multiple states and other kinds of right.
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.480
So I worked with everything in between.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:54.800
Um and there's while there's there are definitely differences amongst the firms, what uh I did for this book is if I could take seven things that that all the great ones do, um here's the seven things, you know, and let me share this.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.880
And and I put them in the book, talked about them when I work with firms, these are the things that I tried to lock down do.
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.760
Um you'll you'll you know recognize a lot of of these things.
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:11.599
Um, and so it's it's uh yeah, on trial guides, it's coming out in, like I said, in the next month or two.
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.440
And um excited about it.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:14.320
Yeah, no, you should be.
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.440
That's a big deal writing a book.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.639
That's a tremendous accomplishment.
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:19.679
So I'll be picking that I'll be picking that up for sure.
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:24.719
Um I so you you know, first of all, I work with Mickey.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:34.480
Mickey loves my coach, and she has been she has been enormously, prodigiously impactful on me because she just like rolls up her stays and gets stuff done, right?
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.000
Yeah, and so and so I just want to share, you know, she's gonna become on the show at some point.
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.920
So I love Mickey, she's been fantastic.
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.480
But you know, you and she speak the same language, right?
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:52.079
It's like the fundamentals we're talking about fanatical and coaching, but like the fundamental, you know, that the full block, the the fullback, you know, runs here, the block is here.
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.719
It's like tackling blocking, it's not that complicated.
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:58.559
Call your clients, case grade, and then work your best case.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.880
You know, the 5% gives you 50% of your income.
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:02.800
You're immersed in all these firms.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.559
What's your biggest frustration?
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.159
What's the common thing?
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:14.239
You just want to hit your head against the wall because like you keep seeing it happen, it's getting in the way of great owners from really unlocking great, you know, firm production.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.079
What are some common mistakes you see?
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:17.119
Oh gosh.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.719
Um, you know, I think so.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:28.159
Some of the, you know, one of the firm, another mentor would be Lee Coleman at Houston Coleman, just to, you know, gosh, and he's taught so many people in so many different firms.
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:39.440
Yeah, one thing I always admire about Lee is that regardless of how incredibly successful their firm has been and and how amazing that what they built, he's always looking to learn.
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.639
I mean, he just either always like he's like, tell me more about that.
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.920
Tell me, I've never heard him say we always do that.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:49.119
Yeah, you never I never hear him say, Okay, we do that right now.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:54.320
Yeah, so you know, I'm thinking about so that whenever I hear that at a firm, and I brought that up earlier.
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.559
I mean, it really is like, okay, I got work to do here.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:15.280
I mean, this is this is gonna be a tough one, versus someone that's like so but but you the other challenge is I I think you know, when you get the firm, I mean, gosh, I really I really get the fortune I work with some just amazing firms, and they're all like active learners.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:25.440
And I want to say the the biggest spot where firms struggle is I say that everything breaks every time you double, right?
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:28.400
And so a firm it's somewhere around okay, five people.
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.920
There's a couple things that happen.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:37.760
When you're five people and one owner, the owner is essentially at that point 20% of the culture, 20% of the vibe at the firm.
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:38.159
Yeah.
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:39.760
And you can you know everyone ended up.
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:41.039
So then you go to 10 people, right?
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:44.880
Now the now the owner is 10% of the culture of the people.
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:54.320
And that's an important statistic because that I think at all at all times um you gotta have at least 10% of your team that knows everything that's going on at the firm.
00:47:54.480 --> 00:48:02.239
They eat their culture, cultural ambassadors where they they act and move and think like the owner's core values.
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:08.320
And as you get as you get bigger, that 10% gets tougher to maintain, right?
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:10.000
And you gotta make sure that you're always investing.
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:23.679
Like, do I always have because one, they gotta have access to all the information because if you want them to make smart decisions, you can't hide you know 20% of the information from those guys and then expect them to make decisions like you do with 100% of the information.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:54.159
So you when I talk about scaling, so okay, you're you're humming along at you know 10 people, and now you get to 20 people, and you're starting to cook, and you're like, okay, and then the the sort of the fun phase of the firm is somewhere between 20 and 40 because you're like, you know everybody, the owner can still kind of like keep all their you know fingers and all the different things, go, hey, I understand there, I know this, and everyone's you know, husband, wife, kids, names, and we all the parties are kind of fun, and it still feels like a small little family.
00:48:54.400 --> 00:49:03.599
And the real grind is typically between when firms go to 40 to 80 people, um where you're growing, and all of a sudden it gets a little funky.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:20.880
And if you don't have good a good team, good systems and processes, um, good communication channels, then that's a lot of firms will get intimidated and like turn back around and go, I don't want to be, and they go, I don't want to be corporate, or I don't want to be, I don't want to be a big firm.
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:34.400
And it's not that they don't want to be a big firm, that they just associate it with chaos, working 100-hour weeks, um, feeling like out of con like they're not in control of every single aspect of it.
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:47.920
And there's ways to get over that hump, but I I see that's usually with the spot where a lot of firms either hit the wall or and go back or um really have a lot of get stuck there.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:58.400
You you talk a lot about, you know, when you get your arms around a firm and you start looking, you like to look at intake, setting case grades, and then setting a valley.
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.239
For someone who hasn't really heard those words before, what can the practitioner do today?
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:03.599
Quick wins we talk about, right?
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:04.400
What are some quick wins?
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:04.960
Absolutely.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.760
For example, where would you start?
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:08.719
Like if you had to start.
00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:21.840
Yeah, when when I go into a firm, um, and you know, we talked about, hey, there's there's no secret sauce, there's no magic bullet, you get like you really can there's three spots where in the first 90 days you can actually make some decent progress, right?
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:30.079
One is intake, where you go, and if you're messing up something in intake and you fix it tomorrow, um, you get to experience the benefit the next day, right?
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:41.039
If you uh improve your first call conversion, if you improve your um, you know, you're you're chasing down like what I'll call no contacts and make sure you're touching.
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:47.519
There's little nuances that you can go and tweak, and it's super, it's very satisfying because you see the result the next day, right?
00:50:47.920 --> 00:51:11.440
The second thing is that I'll see firms that that have a really weak or uh defective way that they they categorize their cases or grade their cases, or and I I talk about that uh a lot where you know the pretto point is true, like for most well, for healthy firms, typically 20%, the best 20% of their cases generate 80% of their revenue.
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.960
Um their best five percent of their cases generate 50% of the revenue, right?
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:28.880
And so when I look at a firm and and where those things don't necessarily hold up, there's usually reasons why, and and we gotta go find out like a lot of firms go, we don't get good cases.
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:37.599
That's great, you know, Chad and whoever else that you guys get these really, really great cases, but uh we don't, and that's why we haven't been able to grow.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.079
The reality is that you do have those good cases, and you're just not great at finding them.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:44.159
And it sounds harsh, but it's true.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.800
And so intake case grading is essentially let's make sure we have high visibility on our best cases because they're there.
00:51:53.280 --> 00:52:10.000
And then the last thing is let's make sure that we don't um undersettle our best cases tomorrow, which is um the concept of let's let's set target values for each and every case that is in a negotiation posture, right?
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:46.320
Um, because you know, if you look at a firm and say they have five attorneys, and say you give them all the exact same case, and one attorney gets$250,000 on that case, and the next attorney's getting$150,000, and the next attorney's getting$100, and maybe one day actually selling it for$75, the difference between what the most that we call the attorney with the highest credible risk tolerance of the firm, yeah, the difference between what they get and the lowest is a measure of inefficiency because our clients deserve to get the highest number if they have the same same case.
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:56.239
Now, I I get there's different low layers of coverage, but there's there's things that happen at a firm where there's there's people that are in silos and they're under under settling cases.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:08.239
And um, you know, I was working with a firm the other day and that you know just a young associate had a really, really good case, and they just were working in a silo, they didn't get a value assigned to it, and they took pennies on the dollar.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:08.719
Yeah.
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.239
Oh, you talk about attorney tiers.
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.800
Once you get a certain size of scale, you can have tiers, right?
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:38.639
Yeah, so and that's the other thing that very uh a somewhat controversial topic, but it it's a you know, it's a conversation that is uncomfortable for a lot of firms to have, but it's a necessary conversation, and that is can we just agree that our job as as attorneys for our clients is to get the absolute best result we possibly can as a firm, right?
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:54.400
And then can we also agree that there are some attorneys at the firm that have more experience, they've you know uh develop their skills more this more time of their craft, and they have a history of getting better results, right?
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.239
If we can't agree to that, then we're we're we're we're off, right?
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:05.599
But so if if we're this is our job and this is the truth, then can we can we have a conversation about who those are?
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:12.719
And and not to embarrass anybody and not to belittle anybody, but can we have that conversation for the sake of we owe it to our clients?
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:21.199
If a case looks like this, we want to pass the ball, pass the case to the person that is most qualified to get it to the finish line, right?
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.679
And with a great result.
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:30.559
And so we we developed these attorney tiers, and it was intended to be, you know, it's intended to be an objective way just to have that conversation.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:39.840
Tier five is is essentially an attorney that's gotten um three plus you know first chair jury verdicts of a million or more in the past you know five years.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:46.079
A tier one would be someone that is you know fresh out of law school and requires a lot of time, effort, energy, and attention.
00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:53.840
Um, you know, do do our tier fives walk around the office and knock the files out of the hand of the tier ones and you know, point at them and laugh?
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:54.239
No.
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.719
No charged with with coaching them up and helping them get reach their goals.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:19.360
But if there's not clarity about, hey, I gotta, you know, pass, I owe it to the client to pass the ball to one of our more qualified attorneys when it looks like this, then what you have is you're you're essentially trying to run a an offense where you have four people thinking they're the quarterback and no one wants to, you know, and it's chaos, right?
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:24.800
And and so firms that don't want to because here's how firms do it, right?
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:30.960
Firms are like, well, everyone knows who the good attorneys are, and everyone we haven't really talked about it, but we all kind of know.
00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:31.360
Yeah.
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:39.440
Then you know, you have a case and you move it from you know Joe to John, and then they all get mad because I know what I'm doing.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:41.920
And and so you have to have that conversation.
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.239
So we we developed this tier system.
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:52.159
Uh we have it again, it's in the effort of like, let's get the best result for our clients and let's just talk about this because if we don't talk about it, it's gonna be chaotic.
00:55:52.400 --> 00:56:06.400
And the other thing is if there's firms that don't have any tier four, tier five attorneys, you you can run a great firm, you just gotta attack it differently in the sense of like, can we just agree when it looks like this?
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:14.960
You should get a tier four, tier five associated on the case or refer or do so again, we owe it to the client to get a great result.
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:29.199
And if we're honest with ourselves that, hey, we don't got anybody, but we got this guy that wants to be one, well, pair them up with a really, really great attorney and let them follow them side by side and and and develop those skills so that one day they can be a tier five, right?
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:29.920
I love that.
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:36.239
It's yeah, you know, um, it's not about the lawyer not being up to stuff, it's about what what it requires.
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:42.400
I think it's I think a mentor of mine, Bill Biggs, talks about, you know, he has written down like this is what a tier five is, right?
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:43.760
They they do XYZ.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:44.880
So it's objective.
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.039
It's not like Chad, you're not you're not that.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:48.400
It's like, well, this is what it is.
00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:53.519
So then the honest conversation kind of almost handles itself, but you're still being brutally honest, right?
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:55.440
And so I think that's really important.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:04.880
You know, I I think a quick win as well for the practitioner who just maybe this is a fire hose of information on this call right now, um, is 8020, right?
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:09.039
And once this podcast ends, go to your go to your files, right?
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.840
There's 20% of them will bring you 80% of your revenue.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.199
I think we flip that, right?
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:16.800
As busy attorneys, we flip that and we're working our ass, are working 70 hours a week.
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:23.760
For less, yeah, it's all the same, but like, so you're you're getting a little, you're you're getting more tactical, strategic, right?
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:25.840
On a obviously very sophisticated level.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.519
You don't want to be that sophisticated to identify what are my top five percent.
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:35.760
I just made I may have just doubled my income this year by by doing that and better serve my clients because I can only do so much.
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.519
You know, am I from a great case?
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:38.639
Is it C minus case?
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:41.039
I can only do so much for the client.
00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:48.239
I'd love to work to help, but there's a there's a there's a minimum to there, there's a max to why I can get it for a C for a C minus graded case, right?
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:48.800
For an A.
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:51.840
I can do so much for that client.
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:56.639
And so, you know, I I I underscore to the listener, always do what's best for the client.
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.360
So you need to have that's our north north star.
00:57:59.519 --> 00:57:59.840
That's it.
00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:00.320
That's our own.
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:06.239
That's for the client, you win, you're gonna have a happier practice, you're gonna make more money, the client's gonna be, you know, raving fans.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:09.199
It's it's kind of simple because the stuff you preach is actually kind of simple.
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:16.239
It's hard stuff, but it's the fundamental, again, blocking and tackling that we get distracted, right?
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:17.360
We get dermed.
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:21.920
Yeah, I always say it's it's the fanatical consistent application of simple concepts.
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.000
Like if I say clients more, but yeah, no kidding, Chad.
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.280
Thanks, thanks for the advice.
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:34.320
But when I say, okay, let's let's really get fanatical about how we're gonna deliver on that and really break it down again.
00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:35.599
That's a different thing.
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:40.480
So it's a it's a simple concept, but it's it's the fanatical consistent application.
00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:43.519
And um, that's yeah, that's the you know, it happened the other day.
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:47.360
I was working with the firm and um we just started the grading process with him.
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:55.280
And so we went through and we we we found some cases that weren't on the radar that had the elements of being potentially really, really great cases.
00:58:55.440 --> 00:59:10.960
Um then one of them was in negotiation, and the goal, and this is um the goal of the attorney was a young guy, and he was doing everything that that he thought he's doing everything he could on this case, and he's gonna he wanted to go sell it for 500 grand.
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:19.360
Um, we fortunately had a couple of the other attorneys from this firm on the line that tried some cases, and they just this was under the radar, and now it's on the radar.
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:27.599
And they said, you know, we got um we had a total of 1.5 million coverage, and like this is a this is a policy limits case all day long.
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.000
Don't take anything less than 1.5.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:40.960
And then two weeks later, the the new attorney got 1.5 wonderful max limits, and and it just it blew their mind like, oh my gosh, how many of these are there in at our firm?
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:43.840
And it was just like that, boom.
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:53.119
I love that uh the client's better spot, the firm's in a better spot, and then you multiply that by a bunch of cases, and it it it makes a difference.
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:53.920
Big time.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:56.159
If you're talking about MSV, what's MSV?
00:59:56.719 --> 00:59:57.760
So we got this.
00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:01.599
Um, so we when we first started it, uh, we we called it MSV.
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:10.400
It were said, okay, this is our our minimum settlement value, and basically it's like we are this is the most aggressive number that we're gonna draw the line in the sand over.
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:15.440
Where if we don't get this, is we feel great about recommending this as a great result to the client.
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:19.119
If we don't get it, we're willing to go take the case to trial on this number.
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:30.480
Since that time, I have uh firms, you know, some people call it the FSV full settlement value, some people call it the maximum settlement value, some people call it the uh target res TRV target resolution value.
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:37.039
Basically, the goal is where are we going to draw the line in the sand on this case and let's make it make it aggressive?
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:47.360
And we also compare it to like a you know, we take all factors into consideration when we set that number, um, you know, coverage, liability, plaintive, venue, causation, etc.
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:52.000
And then we also assign another number that people don't talk about as much is top value.
01:00:52.239 --> 01:01:00.559
Top value is basically saying, okay, assume uh that we win on liability, clean causation, and we have unlimited coverage, what are the damages in this case worth, right?
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:10.239
And and I would argue the bigger the gap between MSV and top value is where this the skill of the attorney plays a big role.
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:11.599
You got a big liability issue.
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:13.679
Okay, we need some of our best attorneys on that.
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.480
We got a big causation issue, we need your best attorney on that, right?
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:18.000
Uh that kind of thing.
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:19.840
So I love that.
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:21.760
Chad, I really appreciate the wisdom.
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:28.400
Thank you so much for for teaching all of us for being willing to be so to be a giver, right?
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:31.440
And to share your your best tips, your best strategies.
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:32.800
That helps the whole bar.
01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:34.320
So I appreciate you.
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:36.079
How can people get in touch with you?
01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:40.800
Uh look, if you can email me at um cdudly at Dudleydevoter.com.
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:45.519
Uh that's D-U-D-L-U-I-D-E-B-O-S-I-E-R dot com.
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:46.400
So awesome.
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:47.679
Chad, I appreciate your time.
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:48.239
Thank you so much.
01:01:48.320 --> 01:01:49.440
Don't stop teaching.
01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:51.840
Uh, I'm excited to see what the next chapter holds for you.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:52.559
Super excited.
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:53.360
Thank you so much.
01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:54.159
Thank you.
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:54.719
Thank you.
01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:56.719
That's it for this episode of the early show.
01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:02.719
Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify at the podcast, the Answer Legal YouTube channel.
