1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,479
Does Tylenol cause autism?
2
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:09,199
Well, we got to interview a PhD neuroscientist
who literally did his dissertation on autism.
3
00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:10,719
Let's go, doctor Ben.
4
00:00:10,719 --> 00:00:12,160
You've probably seen him on TikTok.
5
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,719
He is a social media scientist or not social
media scientist.
6
00:00:14,719 --> 00:00:15,839
He's a science communicator.
7
00:00:16,135 --> 00:00:19,975
And he also just wrote a book on human
connection, social connection, which is helping
8
00:00:19,975 --> 00:00:24,135
us bridge this divided nation and world that
we're in at the current moment and giving
9
00:00:24,135 --> 00:00:27,414
neuroscience and actual tools and tactics to do
so.
10
00:00:27,414 --> 00:00:28,774
So it's a wild episode.
11
00:00:28,774 --> 00:00:29,829
We had a great time with him.
12
00:00:29,829 --> 00:00:30,870
Let's dive in.
13
00:00:36,149 --> 00:00:37,350
Hello, beautiful people.
14
00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:39,350
Welcome back to the Decision Lab Podcast.
15
00:00:39,350 --> 00:00:44,344
And today, we are thrilled to have on doctor
Ben Rhine, an award winning neuroscientist and
16
00:00:44,344 --> 00:00:49,465
author of Why Brains Need Friends with over a
million followers on social media.
17
00:00:49,465 --> 00:00:50,504
Welcome to the pod.
18
00:00:50,504 --> 00:00:51,625
We're so excited to have you.
19
00:00:51,625 --> 00:00:51,945
Yeah.
20
00:00:51,945 --> 00:00:52,585
Thanks for having me.
21
00:00:52,585 --> 00:00:53,384
It's great to be here.
22
00:00:53,384 --> 00:00:53,784
Yeah.
23
00:00:53,784 --> 00:00:54,424
I'm excited.
24
00:00:54,424 --> 00:00:56,024
This would be it's been a long time coming.
25
00:00:56,024 --> 00:00:57,384
We have this we've had this plan for months.
26
00:00:57,390 --> 00:00:57,869
Oh, yeah.
27
00:00:57,869 --> 00:00:58,509
Maybe more.
28
00:00:58,509 --> 00:01:00,509
I mean, it's, like, been sort of planned.
29
00:01:00,509 --> 00:01:00,750
Right?
30
00:01:00,750 --> 00:01:03,229
For, like, soft planned for, like, years, I
wanna say.
31
00:01:03,229 --> 00:01:04,189
So here we are.
32
00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:06,030
Dude, first thing I wanna ask you is how are
doing, man?
33
00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:07,709
I know you got this book launch coming up.
34
00:01:07,709 --> 00:01:09,069
Like, how's life right now?
35
00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:10,685
Like, you breathe in?
36
00:01:10,685 --> 00:01:11,644
Thanks for asking.
37
00:01:11,644 --> 00:01:14,284
It's a that's a pod podcast question I haven't
yet gotten.
38
00:01:14,284 --> 00:01:14,844
I'm alright.
39
00:01:14,844 --> 00:01:15,644
I'm doing pretty well.
40
00:01:15,644 --> 00:01:15,805
Yeah.
41
00:01:15,805 --> 00:01:20,204
The the unconventional thing about my book
launch is I play I have many roles in life, but
42
00:01:20,204 --> 00:01:23,564
some of the more important ones are I am an
author, and the book comes out, obviously,
43
00:01:23,564 --> 00:01:24,284
October 14.
44
00:01:24,579 --> 00:01:28,579
Then I am the chief science officer of the Mind
Science Foundation based in Texas.
45
00:01:28,579 --> 00:01:30,500
We have a big event every year.
46
00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:35,619
That event this year happens to be October 15,
so I have a very, like, intense week there, and
47
00:01:35,619 --> 00:01:40,625
then I'm also a human being and a husband and
my wife is pregnant and she's due with her
48
00:01:40,625 --> 00:01:42,224
first child October 29.
49
00:01:42,384 --> 00:01:48,625
So I have, like, the confluence of the, like,
three largest things two of them are probably
50
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,439
the biggest things I've ever had to deal with
in my life in the same month, and then you
51
00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:55,200
throw in all the other stuff of the Mind
Science Foundation and everything else, so it's
52
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,920
a lot, you know, I'm hanging on, but I don't
know, feel it's a gift.
53
00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:01,359
I am exhausted.
54
00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:05,545
I have taken, I think, 14 flights in the last
two weeks, You know, it's just it's it's
55
00:02:05,545 --> 00:02:09,625
tiring, but I also know that a year from now,
two years from now, I'm gonna look maybe twenty
56
00:02:09,625 --> 00:02:12,745
years, fifty years from now, I'm gonna look
back at this time in my life and say that was a
57
00:02:12,745 --> 00:02:16,985
time unlike any other, and what a gift it is to
have all these amazing things happening at the
58
00:02:16,985 --> 00:02:21,000
same time, even though it may be, you know, a
bit of a pull and stretch to my bandwidth.
59
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:21,879
So hanging in there.
60
00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:22,520
Doing pretty well.
61
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,319
Dude, that is so much falling apart.
62
00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:26,520
You're so right.
63
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,360
It's all the, like, huge things people do in
their lives just all back to back to back.
64
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,240
That's insane.
65
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,199
I can't even believe it.
66
00:02:32,544 --> 00:02:32,944
Yeah.
67
00:02:32,944 --> 00:02:34,864
And soon as it's gonna be sorry, what's that?
68
00:02:34,864 --> 00:02:37,424
I was just saying you might have a kid on
Halloween or close to it too.
69
00:02:37,424 --> 00:02:38,224
That's my favorite holiday.
70
00:02:38,224 --> 00:02:38,784
That'd be cool.
71
00:02:38,784 --> 00:02:43,344
As long as I don't have a kid while I'm in
Texas for the event, that's, that's my big
72
00:02:43,344 --> 00:02:43,664
fear.
73
00:02:43,664 --> 00:02:46,944
So I'm just waiting until once I get back from
that event in Texas, because I live in New
74
00:02:46,944 --> 00:02:50,830
York, that's when it is going to be I'm gonna
feel a lot better because I'm I'm obviously
75
00:02:50,830 --> 00:02:53,709
horrified that my wife's gonna go into labor
while I'm not in town.
76
00:02:53,709 --> 00:02:56,669
So that's there's lot of anxiety around that,
as you can imagine.
77
00:02:56,669 --> 00:02:59,629
But I'm just trying to be optimistic, you know,
that would the baby would be coming, like, two
78
00:02:59,629 --> 00:03:00,669
weeks early if that happens.
79
00:03:00,669 --> 00:03:03,235
So just cross your fingers for me and hope that
the baby comes on time.
80
00:03:03,235 --> 00:03:03,875
Got it.
81
00:03:03,875 --> 00:03:04,754
We'll cross our fingers.
82
00:03:04,754 --> 00:03:06,034
We're all hoping for the best on this.
83
00:03:06,034 --> 00:03:06,514
That's awesome.
84
00:03:06,514 --> 00:03:06,675
Thank you.
85
00:03:06,675 --> 00:03:08,034
Can't imagine how stressful that is.
86
00:03:08,034 --> 00:03:11,314
I'm glad you've got some perspective on it,
though, and can look into the future and be
87
00:03:11,314 --> 00:03:14,769
like, I think I'm gonna look back at this and
be like, it's gonna be okay.
88
00:03:14,769 --> 00:03:16,530
Yeah, it's yeah, it's gonna be cool.
89
00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:20,530
And also, honestly, come November, the book
will be out, the event in Mind Science will be
90
00:03:20,530 --> 00:03:25,090
over, the baby will be here, and I will be
laying on my couch completely sleep deprived,
91
00:03:25,169 --> 00:03:30,574
experiencing the largest oxytocin surge of my
entire life, and just feeling so whatever I'll
92
00:03:30,574 --> 00:03:31,455
be feeling at that time.
93
00:03:31,455 --> 00:03:35,215
Probably exhausted, probably irritable, and
probably very grateful.
94
00:03:35,215 --> 00:03:37,135
So I'm excited for that next stage.
95
00:03:37,215 --> 00:03:43,389
Do you look at something like birth thinking
about is is there a way that you look at it
96
00:03:43,389 --> 00:03:45,310
without the science, like, just as a dad as
well?
97
00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:47,790
Like, or is the science just interweaved in
there?
98
00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:51,469
I think the science is, like, interweaved into
everything I see in life, you know?
99
00:03:51,469 --> 00:03:55,790
Like, and, you know, I'm not this is not a a
plug to my book, although it's gonna sound like
100
00:03:55,790 --> 00:03:57,310
it, and I guess it will be effectively.
101
00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:04,564
But the reason I wrote my book is because I see
our social world, our social lives, our daily
102
00:04:04,564 --> 00:04:08,884
interactions through the lens of being a
neuroscientist who studies social behavior.
103
00:04:08,884 --> 00:04:13,180
And so when it's like we are in a loneliness
epidemic and I'm seeing all these statistics of
104
00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:17,339
social contact going down, isolation going up,
you know, all these indicators going in the
105
00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:22,220
wrong direction, that felt completely different
to me given my perspective from this
106
00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:26,055
neuroscience lens than the average person, and
I wanted to write a book that would kind of
107
00:04:26,055 --> 00:04:29,495
expose that perspective and be like, look, this
is why this actually matters.
108
00:04:29,495 --> 00:04:32,055
This is why brains need friends, that's what
the title of the book is.
109
00:04:32,055 --> 00:04:37,654
And so and the reason I say all that, again not
trying to plug my book, but that, like, that's
110
00:04:37,654 --> 00:04:41,735
genuinely how I'm realizing more and more,
that's how I think about a lot of things, and
111
00:04:41,539 --> 00:04:42,740
it's pretty much everything.
112
00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:47,139
Like the empirical method, the scientific
method can be applied to like basically
113
00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:51,620
everything, and you just can't help your
knowledge and your training shifting the way
114
00:04:51,620 --> 00:04:52,259
you see the world.
115
00:04:52,259 --> 00:04:53,620
I think it happens to everybody, right?
116
00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:58,134
So like a plumber is probably going to try to
fix a problem with the tools a plumber uses,
117
00:04:58,134 --> 00:04:58,375
right?
118
00:04:58,375 --> 00:05:01,495
Whereas like a painter is gonna want to like
cover it up with paint and make it
119
00:05:01,495 --> 00:05:02,454
aesthetically beautiful, right?
120
00:05:02,454 --> 00:05:05,414
Like we all have different approaches, and mine
happens to be neuroscience.
121
00:05:05,414 --> 00:05:09,414
So yeah, when it comes to the baby, I mean, I'm
definitely thinking about the biology, and I
122
00:05:09,414 --> 00:05:12,620
talk a bit about the biology in the book too,
so it's like kind of fresh.
123
00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:16,779
I just wrote those sections pretty recently, so
definitely all wrapped up in neuroscience.
124
00:05:16,779 --> 00:05:18,139
We'll get there.
125
00:05:18,139 --> 00:05:19,899
We're gonna talk a little bit about the book.
126
00:05:19,899 --> 00:05:23,819
Before we do though, like, I would just be so
curious to understand how you got fascinated
127
00:05:23,819 --> 00:05:25,419
with neuroscience, just in general.
128
00:05:25,685 --> 00:05:29,525
Not everyone becomes a neuroscientist, like,
where did it start for you?
129
00:05:29,525 --> 00:05:31,365
It started really young.
130
00:05:31,444 --> 00:05:36,004
Well, when I was in elementary school is when I
realized that I was interested in behavior, and
131
00:05:36,004 --> 00:05:37,444
specifically social behavior.
132
00:05:37,444 --> 00:05:42,270
I literally remember looking around my
cafeteria and seeing some tables of students
133
00:05:42,270 --> 00:05:47,230
that were really, really like outgoing and
rambunctious and loud and energetic, and other
134
00:05:47,230 --> 00:05:50,750
tables that were the total opposite: really
quiet, everyone's reading, you know, or eating
135
00:05:50,750 --> 00:05:53,870
their, you know, looking at their sandwiches,
no one's looking at each other, right?
136
00:05:54,095 --> 00:05:58,895
And I thought, wow, how interesting is it that
we're all different, and why, right?
137
00:05:58,895 --> 00:06:00,254
Like, what's going on here?
138
00:06:00,254 --> 00:06:03,855
But I wasn't thinking about the brain, I was
thinking about who we are and our identities
139
00:06:03,855 --> 00:06:04,814
and personalities.
140
00:06:04,814 --> 00:06:09,295
So when I got to college I started studying
psychology, hoping to study this, right?
141
00:06:09,295 --> 00:06:12,980
Why are kind of the psychology of introversion,
extroversion, I guess.
142
00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:18,419
And then partway through my studies, I had my
doubts about whether psychology was the right
143
00:06:18,419 --> 00:06:19,220
field for me.
144
00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:22,579
I felt like I was more interested in
neuroscience, but I was super intimidated by
145
00:06:22,579 --> 00:06:23,220
neuroscience.
146
00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:27,264
I thought that it was terrifying and I would
never make it through the, you know, genetics
147
00:06:27,264 --> 00:06:30,144
and molecular biology and biochemistry and all
that.
148
00:06:30,144 --> 00:06:36,464
So I stayed in psychology mostly out of fear,
and then I, in my second year, I had a
149
00:06:36,464 --> 00:06:39,420
horrifying nightmare that legitimately changed
my life.
150
00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,139
And if you want, can tell you about the dream,
but just for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it
151
00:06:42,139 --> 00:06:42,460
out.
152
00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:49,900
Basically, I woke up that day and decided I
cannot ignore this feeling in me that tells me
153
00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:51,020
that I want to study the brain.
154
00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:56,365
And it was actually the dream itself and the
experience of being immersed in this virtual, I
155
00:06:56,365 --> 00:07:00,845
guess you call it virtual environment, right,
this dreamscape where there's all these vivid
156
00:07:00,845 --> 00:07:01,564
elements.
157
00:07:01,644 --> 00:07:03,485
We have characters who make decisions.
158
00:07:03,485 --> 00:07:04,284
There's dialogue.
159
00:07:04,284 --> 00:07:05,724
I'm interacting with the characters.
160
00:07:05,724 --> 00:07:06,604
There's a storyline.
161
00:07:07,009 --> 00:07:11,009
I have this sort of agency that I can move
about the dream and seemingly make decisions
162
00:07:11,009 --> 00:07:11,649
and all this.
163
00:07:11,649 --> 00:07:15,649
And and the world changes around me, and it's
horrifying, and it's tailored to my fears.
164
00:07:15,649 --> 00:07:19,250
And I woke up and realized that's unbelievable
that my brain was just doing that.
165
00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:23,754
Like, how did my brain just preserve this sense
of consciousness that I'm, like, moving about
166
00:07:23,754 --> 00:07:26,154
in this dream while also generating everything
around me?
167
00:07:26,235 --> 00:07:27,514
This organ is unbelievable.
168
00:07:27,514 --> 00:07:29,514
I need to study how this organ works.
169
00:07:29,675 --> 00:07:31,595
It's not behavior, it's the machine.
170
00:07:31,595 --> 00:07:35,675
And that's where I switched, like, literally
that day I switched to neuroscience and never
171
00:07:35,675 --> 00:07:39,810
looked back, and I I was lucky enough to get
directly go from undergrad to a PhD in
172
00:07:39,810 --> 00:07:44,529
neuroscience, and then I in my PhD was able to
study the neurobiology of autism, so I got to
173
00:07:44,529 --> 00:07:49,754
sort of answer this, you know, scratch that
itch that I had since elementary school, right?
174
00:07:49,754 --> 00:07:51,834
Like, why are we different why are we all
different socially?
175
00:07:51,834 --> 00:07:53,274
What brain systems guide that?
176
00:07:53,274 --> 00:07:58,714
And then I went on to Stanford for a postdoc
where I studied empathy and specifically how
177
00:07:58,714 --> 00:08:02,555
MDMA, the drug also known as Molly, enhances
empathy.
178
00:08:03,339 --> 00:08:07,339
That wasn't necessarily because I was
interested in MDMA, although it is interesting.
179
00:08:07,339 --> 00:08:12,620
The deeper question is can the brain systems
like, in studying autism I was able to see the
180
00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:16,620
brain systems that drive social behavior can be
altered in a way that makes us less social.
181
00:08:16,865 --> 00:08:21,105
Can the brain systems that drive empathy be
altered in a way that makes us more empathic?
182
00:08:21,105 --> 00:08:26,144
And and how might that be so that maybe we
could develop drugs that enhance empathy for
183
00:08:26,144 --> 00:08:28,705
conditions like psychopathy or something like
that where it could be useful?
184
00:08:28,705 --> 00:08:32,179
And we got some really clear answers on both of
those things through the research that I did.
185
00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:35,860
So it's been a fun journey, and it I guess it
all started with a nightmare in elementary
186
00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:36,259
school.
187
00:08:36,259 --> 00:08:37,059
That's awesome.
188
00:08:37,059 --> 00:08:38,419
I've never heard a story like that.
189
00:08:38,419 --> 00:08:43,055
Something I'm curious about is and some people
might not know this, but people when you get a
190
00:08:43,055 --> 00:08:45,375
PhD, you're studying something extraordinarily
specific.
191
00:08:45,375 --> 00:08:47,295
Like, you you, like, you go deep on something.
192
00:08:47,295 --> 00:08:52,975
Like but how do you go from everything that the
brain is and could be and that you could study
193
00:08:52,975 --> 00:08:57,300
and all these questions to your specific the
thing that you chose.
194
00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,580
Like, how did you get to that specific thing
you did your PhD on?
195
00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:03,059
Well, truthfully, the in my PhD, the decision
was not mine.
196
00:09:03,059 --> 00:09:08,180
It was my my supervisor's because I came in as
a PhD student, and let's be real, I didn't know
197
00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:08,580
shit.
198
00:09:08,580 --> 00:09:13,404
And so my advisor, who really knows this field
very well, was like this is going be your
199
00:09:13,404 --> 00:09:17,965
project, and I said okay, sounds good, as long
as you think this is sensible to study, and it
200
00:09:17,965 --> 00:09:18,285
was.
201
00:09:18,285 --> 00:09:22,524
And so she was the one making that decision, so
I can answer it kind of from her perspective.
202
00:09:22,524 --> 00:09:27,700
We were looking at the genetics of autism and
it's known that there's a bunch of different
203
00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:33,460
causes of autism, and many of them are genetic
or a lot of autism cases are genetic, and then
204
00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:36,980
there are others that are like environmental
and things like that, but when it comes to the
205
00:09:36,980 --> 00:09:42,845
genetic factors, it's well known that there are
some genes that are genetic mutations, or when
206
00:09:42,845 --> 00:09:46,524
the gene sequence has changed, if that happens
to a person, they're much more likely to be
207
00:09:46,524 --> 00:09:49,884
diagnosed with autism and they show social
changes in social behaviors.
208
00:09:49,884 --> 00:09:51,404
And so that was kind of the question.
209
00:09:51,404 --> 00:09:55,779
It was like, okay, this gene sequence changing
somehow makes people behave differently in
210
00:09:55,779 --> 00:09:57,460
social settings, how is that happening?
211
00:09:57,460 --> 00:10:02,100
So what we would do is we would pick one of
those genes, which by the way there are like a
212
00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:05,700
thousand associated with autism, it's a very
complicated condition, that's why it's a
213
00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:09,054
spectrum, but we pick one and we would say, all
right, what's going on here?
214
00:10:09,054 --> 00:10:09,294
Right?
215
00:10:09,294 --> 00:10:13,535
So the genetic variable I was looking at, to
make matters even more complicated and
216
00:10:13,535 --> 00:10:17,934
frustrate listeners, it wasn't one gene, it was
a section of chromosome 16.
217
00:10:17,934 --> 00:10:23,800
It was called position 11.2, which doesn't
matter, it was like 27 a stretch of 27 genes on
218
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:29,160
chromosome 16, and it was sometimes duplicated,
so you'd have twice as many genes as you need,
219
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,160
or it'd be deleted where you have all these
genes missing, 27 genes, and a good analogy is
220
00:10:33,195 --> 00:10:35,274
like trisomy twenty one, Down syndrome, right?
221
00:10:35,274 --> 00:10:39,514
You have this chromosome 21, there's an when
there's an additional chromosome it produces
222
00:10:39,514 --> 00:10:43,514
these characteristic effects that we know as
Down syndrome.
223
00:10:43,595 --> 00:10:48,110
So I was studying the duplication of this one
little section of chromosome 16, and so what we
224
00:10:48,110 --> 00:10:52,110
would do to study this is we would duplicate
that chromosome or that section of the
225
00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,789
chromosome in mice and then we would study
their brains and we would look at what's going
226
00:10:55,789 --> 00:11:02,535
on in the brain, can we basically identify the
thread that connects this genetic change to
227
00:11:02,615 --> 00:11:06,294
whatever difference in brain function is
happening, and then can we connect that
228
00:11:06,294 --> 00:11:08,934
difference in brain function to the change in
behavior.
229
00:11:08,934 --> 00:11:14,934
And so what we end up doing is zooming in on
the prefrontal cortex, a pretty well known
230
00:11:14,429 --> 00:11:18,830
brain area, and we found that there was changes
in signaling between the neurons synaptic
231
00:11:18,909 --> 00:11:23,070
synapses, the junctions between cells where
neurotransmitters are released and all this
232
00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:24,830
communication happens between cells.
233
00:11:24,909 --> 00:11:28,750
We found that there were basically changes in
the way the cells were communicating and those
234
00:11:28,274 --> 00:11:30,675
those mice were also interacting less with each
other.
235
00:11:30,675 --> 00:11:33,475
So sounds similar reminiscent of autism.
236
00:11:33,475 --> 00:11:37,715
So what we did is we actually went in and
basically asked the question if we restore the
237
00:11:37,715 --> 00:11:42,434
synaptic transmission, the way the cells are
interacting, if we restore it to what is
238
00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:45,350
typically seen, does that reverse the changes
in the social behaviors?
239
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:49,990
And it did, so we found that by altering the
neural communication the mice became more
240
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:53,750
social, which, you know, this could give it a
massive tangent, but it was we only did that
241
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:59,514
experiment to see are what we is this change we
noticed responsible for the social differences,
242
00:11:59,675 --> 00:12:04,795
but in finding that restoring that brain
function can enhance social interaction, it
243
00:12:04,795 --> 00:12:09,754
naturally opens the door to, well, could this
be a potential treatment mechanism for autism
244
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:09,919
spectrum disorder?
245
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,519
And that happens a lot in mice and it almost
never translates to humans.
246
00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,959
Like, you'd be shocked there's probably I'm
just completely guessing, but I would bet in
247
00:12:16,959 --> 00:12:22,159
the last year there have probably been 25 to 30
papers published where autism was cured in
248
00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:25,644
mice, air quotes cured, and that they were the
mice became more social after some brain
249
00:12:25,644 --> 00:12:30,044
manipulation, and I can promise that probably
none of those will translate to humans,
250
00:12:30,044 --> 00:12:33,644
unfortunately, but it does uncover a bit more
about how the condition works.
251
00:12:33,644 --> 00:12:37,720
So anyway, sorry, you asked me how I got to
what I studied and I just told you my entire
252
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,920
PhD thesis, so sorry for going a little
overboard on that.
253
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,879
No, it's okay.
254
00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:45,559
I prefer it honestly, and it's it's interesting
because there's some interesting things
255
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:50,615
happening in the world today in relation to
autism and you seem to be the perfect person to
256
00:12:50,615 --> 00:12:51,095
talk to.
257
00:12:51,095 --> 00:12:54,615
What was the most surprising thing you learned
about autism during your research?
258
00:12:54,615 --> 00:12:56,774
Gosh, I mean, I I learned a lot.
259
00:12:56,855 --> 00:13:01,174
Gosh, probably the biggest, like, woah, this is
nuts moment was when I did those experiments
260
00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:05,550
that I actually just described, where I I did
something you would never do to a human being.
261
00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:10,670
I injected a virus into the prefrontal cortex
of these mice in order to increase the
262
00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:15,389
expression of a certain protein so that that
protein could then go over to synapses and
263
00:13:15,389 --> 00:13:19,595
cause a change in the way the cells signal, and
I thought there's no way this is going to do
264
00:13:19,595 --> 00:13:19,995
anything.
265
00:13:19,995 --> 00:13:24,794
Like I literally did a brain surgery on a mouse
hoping to God it works, you know, based on just
266
00:13:24,794 --> 00:13:29,595
theory, and then I put them into a behavioral
test where they have the choice between
267
00:13:29,595 --> 00:13:35,730
interacting with an inanimate object or another
mouse, and mouse after mouse after mouse they
268
00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:39,410
were super social, even though before the
surgery they were not social at all.
269
00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:44,690
And that moment of like, I just altered this
mouse's neurochemistry in a way that makes it
270
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:48,595
want to interact more, That was like the most
mind blowing thing and it's and it's funny
271
00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:52,914
because those moments happen, you know, you
expect you might picture like a team of
272
00:13:52,914 --> 00:13:57,954
scientists like rejoicing and popping a bottle
of champagne, but it's actually me sitting in
273
00:13:57,954 --> 00:14:03,470
this dark crummy academic building in a room
with the lights off with the mice and there's
274
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:06,429
no humans around and I'm just like, Woah, this
is crazy.
275
00:14:06,429 --> 00:14:09,470
But again, no one's tested my approach in
humans.
276
00:14:09,629 --> 00:14:12,750
There's ways to do it without having to inject
a virus, by the way, that's just the way it's
277
00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:16,375
done in animal studies because it's the fastest
and most efficient way to do it.
278
00:14:16,375 --> 00:14:19,575
But, yeah, no one's tested that in humans and I
don't know if it would be if it would make
279
00:14:19,575 --> 00:14:23,334
sense in humans, but anyways I think that maybe
all of that is my biggest learning, like my
280
00:14:23,334 --> 00:14:26,375
biggest surprise, that like woah you can
actually change behavior by changing
281
00:14:26,375 --> 00:14:30,709
neurochemistry and then it might not even mean
anything for humans though, just to say.
282
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:35,829
But another learning I had is when I started
talking about that finding on social media, you
283
00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:39,269
know, five years ago, and I thought people were
gonna be like wow, this is unbelievable.
284
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:43,575
And a lot of people were, but then there were a
lot of people who were like It is disgusting of
285
00:14:43,575 --> 00:14:49,095
you to even propose that my autism or my son's
autism or my friend's autism should be cured.
286
00:14:49,095 --> 00:14:53,335
And I was like, Woah, like first off, I never
even said that, like that's not the intention.
287
00:14:53,335 --> 00:14:57,899
The intention of this experiment was not to
identify a cure for autism, it was to just
288
00:14:57,899 --> 00:15:02,220
mechanistically show that the changes we saw in
the brain were responsible for the behavioral
289
00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:02,700
changes.
290
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:04,940
That's the whole purpose of doing mouse
research.
291
00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:09,179
It's the only reason we're doing this in mice
because if we wanted just correlations, we
292
00:15:09,179 --> 00:15:09,899
could do that in humans.
293
00:15:09,899 --> 00:15:12,975
We could take human beings, put them in brain
scanners, and see, Oh look, there's a change in
294
00:15:12,975 --> 00:15:17,054
this brain area and they also show this social
change, that's a correlation but we don't know
295
00:15:17,054 --> 00:15:17,855
it's responsible.
296
00:15:17,855 --> 00:15:22,415
In mice, we can reverse the brain function that
we're noticing and test whether it alters the
297
00:15:22,415 --> 00:15:26,870
behavior, so that's the whole purpose, but that
doesn't necessarily suggest that I think autism
298
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:28,309
should be, like, eradicated.
299
00:15:28,309 --> 00:15:31,350
And that's what people how people perceive it,
or some people did.
300
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:33,029
And that taught me a lot.
301
00:15:33,029 --> 00:15:38,629
That made me really understand the autism
community on a whole new level, where it was
302
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:43,684
like, yeah that makes perfect sense there's a
lot of people who are diagnosed with autism who
303
00:15:43,684 --> 00:15:49,284
are perfectly content with being autistic and
also are probably sick of hearing people like
304
00:15:49,284 --> 00:15:50,325
RFK Jr.
305
00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:55,339
Say things like if you have autism, you know,
we have the cure and, you know, don't take
306
00:15:55,339 --> 00:15:59,980
Tylenol and it's terrible when these people
have autism, like this is the language that's
307
00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:05,980
used in the public sector around autism a lot
and I've become aware of that and so I try
308
00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:12,394
whenever I can to sort of pass that learning on
where it's like, you know, I can't even imagine
309
00:16:12,394 --> 00:16:17,834
what it would be like if if someone was trying
to tell me all the time that the way I am needs
310
00:16:17,834 --> 00:16:19,355
to be changed medically.
311
00:16:20,075 --> 00:16:25,129
And to be sure, there are people who actually
do want treatments, but not everybody.
312
00:16:25,129 --> 00:16:28,330
And so the language is really sensitive, and
the way it's approached is really sensitive,
313
00:16:28,330 --> 00:16:30,330
and I am now sensitive to that.
314
00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:35,210
So it's even more frustrating also to see kind
of the discourse that's happening right now
315
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:38,764
around autism, and, you know, there's a lot
going on.
316
00:16:38,764 --> 00:16:39,085
Yeah.
317
00:16:39,085 --> 00:16:40,445
More on the Tylenol thing in a second.
318
00:16:40,445 --> 00:16:44,125
Something that I'm curious about, though, is
the the mice something that's always pissed me
319
00:16:44,125 --> 00:16:45,804
off a little bit, if I'm just being for real.
320
00:16:45,804 --> 00:16:49,404
This animal study versus human study, and it's
like, okay.
321
00:16:49,404 --> 00:16:51,004
Why to the average consumer?
322
00:16:51,004 --> 00:16:54,259
Could you help them understand why the fuck do
we do these animal studies?
323
00:16:54,259 --> 00:16:57,539
If all scientists say is, well, it's an animal
study, so we can't really do it.
324
00:16:57,539 --> 00:17:02,259
And ninety seven percent or whatever the stat
is of animal studies don't translate to humans
325
00:17:02,259 --> 00:17:04,900
and all this stuff, like, what what the hell?
326
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:05,220
Why?
327
00:17:05,474 --> 00:17:06,035
Help me
328
00:17:06,035 --> 00:17:09,315
understand So, I mean, I kind of already said
it.
329
00:17:09,315 --> 00:17:15,794
It's that in by doing experiments in animals,
we can we could get more clear answers, right?
330
00:17:15,794 --> 00:17:19,474
Like, if you take let's let's take autism out
of it.
331
00:17:19,474 --> 00:17:22,489
Let's take let's look at Parkinson's, okay.
332
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:26,809
So Parkinson's, you know, it's a
neurodegenerative disorder, it's a movement
333
00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:27,450
disorder.
334
00:17:27,529 --> 00:17:31,049
So let's say you have human patients they have
they have Parkinson's and they're struggling to
335
00:17:31,049 --> 00:17:32,970
move they're struggling to initiate movement.
336
00:17:33,049 --> 00:17:37,284
You put them in a brain scanner and it's like
oh look at this this brain area called the
337
00:17:37,284 --> 00:17:39,844
substantia nigra is less active.
338
00:17:40,005 --> 00:17:43,204
Interesting, it's reliable across all these
patients so there may be something going on
339
00:17:43,204 --> 00:17:44,404
with the substantia nigra.
340
00:17:44,404 --> 00:17:48,059
All right, how can we change that, right?
341
00:17:48,059 --> 00:17:52,779
It's like well we know that the substantia
nigra you know receives inputs from neurons
342
00:17:52,779 --> 00:17:57,419
that produce serotonin and dopamine and GABA
and glutamate and you know and by the way
343
00:17:57,419 --> 00:18:00,380
that's I don't even know if that's true I'm
making this up so let's try giving these
344
00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:04,345
Parkinson's patients a drug that stimulates
GABA release, drug a that stimulates dopamine
345
00:18:04,345 --> 00:18:06,265
release, a drug that stimulates serotonin
release, right?
346
00:18:06,265 --> 00:18:10,825
And it's like we can go through all these
countless clinical trials taking real human
347
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:15,304
beings and exposing them to drugs that likely
will not help and also may exacerbate the
348
00:18:15,304 --> 00:18:19,940
problem, we don't know, or we can go into mice
and we can say, alright, hey, let's get a
349
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:23,779
really deep, instead of just a brain scanner
telling us there's less activity, we can go in
350
00:18:23,779 --> 00:18:26,259
there and we can find out everything we need to
know.
351
00:18:26,339 --> 00:18:30,659
And sure, it might not be identical to what's
happening in the human brain, but it's likely
352
00:18:30,659 --> 00:18:32,724
that there's gonna be a lot in common.
353
00:18:32,724 --> 00:18:36,164
And so if we go in and we find, oh actually,
you know, it's not that the entire brain area
354
00:18:36,164 --> 00:18:40,164
is less active, it's that there's certain
neurons that, you know, these are the ones that
355
00:18:40,164 --> 00:18:43,604
are less active, and what if we go in there and
we just stimulate those?
356
00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:48,130
That actually allows the mice to move better,
but stimulating the other neurons doesn't.
357
00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:53,170
Well, we've just identified something much more
high resolution that we never ever, ever would
358
00:18:53,170 --> 00:18:54,369
be able to do in humans.
359
00:18:54,369 --> 00:18:58,769
Even if we gave the people a drug and we and it
made them feel better and made them be able to
360
00:18:58,769 --> 00:19:02,174
move better, we still wouldn't really
understand the mechanism, and so the the animal
361
00:19:02,174 --> 00:19:07,775
studies allow us to identify the mechanism
which also sort of begets new opportunities for
362
00:19:07,775 --> 00:19:08,494
drug treatments.
363
00:19:08,494 --> 00:19:14,049
Okay, we know that this mechanism is what needs
to be done, so this drug happens to do it, but
364
00:19:14,049 --> 00:19:17,330
that drug also has all these side effects, so
if we can find a cleaner drug that more
365
00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:20,369
specifically targets that mechanism, then we
can have better human treatments.
366
00:19:20,369 --> 00:19:26,849
And so I will say, you know, there's there's
there's a lot of animal research that doesn't
367
00:19:26,849 --> 00:19:32,315
need to be animal research, And I think you
won't hear scientists confess that often, but,
368
00:19:32,315 --> 00:19:36,394
you know, like sometimes there's labs that they
only do animal research and they want to answer
369
00:19:36,394 --> 00:19:41,160
a question and they want to have an experiment
in their study to make it stronger and it would
370
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,279
actually make way more sense to do it in
humans, but they don't have the capacity to do
371
00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:46,920
it in humans because they don't have IRB
approval, you know, they don't have
372
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,759
institutional approval to do studies in humans,
and they don't have the ability to recruit
373
00:19:50,759 --> 00:19:54,119
human patients to come to the lab, so it's
easier for them to just do it in mice because
374
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,275
they have the mice accessible and that's how
they know how to do research.
375
00:19:57,434 --> 00:20:01,914
And so it's things like that where you end up
with unnecessary use of lab animals for
376
00:20:01,914 --> 00:20:04,234
studies, but it's, I don't know, it's tough.
377
00:20:04,234 --> 00:20:09,674
I mean science is science is a business and
every researcher is an entrepreneur, and they
378
00:20:09,674 --> 00:20:14,869
are doing everything to support their lab and
their career in a very competitive market, and
379
00:20:14,869 --> 00:20:16,950
so publish or perish, they say, right?
380
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:22,549
You have to publish neighbors or your lab falls
apart and you don't die, but your career dies.
381
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:29,164
And yeah, it's a tough, complicated, messy
circumstance, and the answers, I don't know,
382
00:20:29,085 --> 00:20:30,684
kind of it's very political, right?
383
00:20:30,684 --> 00:20:35,005
To find the right answers, you would need
everything to change, and it's kind of like if
384
00:20:35,005 --> 00:20:39,005
you have a political problem that you, you
know, would require major legislation to change
385
00:20:39,005 --> 00:20:39,964
and it will never pass.
386
00:20:39,964 --> 00:20:40,765
It's kind of like that.
387
00:20:40,765 --> 00:20:45,039
It's like we can try to rectify some of these
issues, but it's it's like old problems that
388
00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,960
have been around for a long time, and a
solution would be, like, nearly impossible
389
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,799
unless there unless there was, like, widespread
simultaneous adoption, which is, like, almost
390
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,359
impossible.
391
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:58,005
You have the unique lens also of being a social
media, like, influencer, if you will, creator,
392
00:20:58,005 --> 00:20:59,444
like, a science communicator.
393
00:20:59,684 --> 00:21:07,524
In this vein, you could put up a story, recruit
probably thousands of human people for a study,
394
00:21:07,524 --> 00:21:10,644
and do like, why is that not two things.
395
00:21:10,724 --> 00:21:11,125
Why not?
396
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:13,990
Like or will you do that in the future maybe?
397
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:15,910
Is that the future of science potentially?
398
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:20,470
Like, as you would, like, interject these two,
your research and your social media side.
399
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:21,509
Like, have you thought about that?
400
00:21:21,509 --> 00:21:22,390
Like, what is your thought on that?
401
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:28,184
Oh, I could do that, but the scientist who I
worked with in my PhD could not do that, right?
402
00:21:28,184 --> 00:21:31,384
Because she's not on social media, she has no
idea how the hell it works, and most scientists
403
00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:36,424
are they shy away from social media, and
historically social media is not a part of
404
00:21:36,424 --> 00:21:37,545
being a scientist, right?
405
00:21:37,545 --> 00:21:38,585
This is a very new thing.
406
00:21:38,899 --> 00:21:43,460
So I do think it's possible, but I mean, it's
so funny because you come around when you see
407
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:48,099
both perspectives of a situation, it makes you
realize that, like, marketing is really
408
00:21:48,099 --> 00:21:48,579
difficult.
409
00:21:48,579 --> 00:21:49,619
Let me explain what I mean.
410
00:21:49,619 --> 00:21:52,259
A couple years ago, I won this research award,
this grant.
411
00:21:52,259 --> 00:21:55,894
It was a $30,000 grant, and I thought, oh my
gosh, this is unbelievable.
412
00:21:55,894 --> 00:21:57,255
I'm so happy I won this.
413
00:21:57,734 --> 00:21:59,414
You know, I must have been so competitive.
414
00:21:59,414 --> 00:22:02,054
Now I'm the chief science officer of the
foundation that funded me.
415
00:22:02,215 --> 00:22:08,330
Part of my job is recruiting people to apply,
and so it's like you would think we're giving
416
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:12,890
out a $100,000 in research funding, you would
think people would like flock to this
417
00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:16,970
opportunity and apply, but it's like, well no,
they don't unless we market it, right?
418
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:21,529
We have to market this opportunity, and so the
same is true with like, you know, clinical
419
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:25,075
trials, like pretty much anything, but you
think, you know, we have a new clinical trial
420
00:22:25,075 --> 00:22:28,674
for Alzheimer's disease, man, think about how
many people are out there with Alzheimer's that
421
00:22:28,674 --> 00:22:30,755
are just desperate for any new potential
treatment.
422
00:22:30,755 --> 00:22:35,555
You launch this clinical trial and research
labs will pay tens of thousands of dollars to
423
00:22:35,555 --> 00:22:40,049
recruit participants for these studies, because
marketing is difficult and getting people,
424
00:22:40,049 --> 00:22:42,289
getting information in front of people is
difficult.
425
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:46,769
So as what I've learned through like social
media and and all this marketing stuff is like,
426
00:22:47,090 --> 00:22:52,555
as wonderful as of an opportunity as you have
and that you are offering people for free, you
427
00:22:52,555 --> 00:22:56,315
often still have to like spend money and do
hard work to get them to even know that it
428
00:22:56,315 --> 00:22:56,795
exists.
429
00:22:56,795 --> 00:23:00,315
And I think that's part of the problem, because
I think scientists don't want to, you know,
430
00:23:00,315 --> 00:23:05,240
spend money recruiting people and and it would
be great if all scientists had, you know,
431
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,559
greater publicity to get the word out, but we
don't.
432
00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,480
And that's part of the problem with science as
well, that science has historically siloed
433
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,920
itself from society, that there is no direct
channel of communication between science and
434
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,224
the public, so it's even harder to to recruit
participants and to, you know, break into new
435
00:23:21,224 --> 00:23:22,585
human research and stuff like that.
436
00:23:22,585 --> 00:23:24,825
Do you see that changing or breaking down in
the future?
437
00:23:24,825 --> 00:23:28,744
Like, do you think there could be lots of
doctor Benz that do have social media
438
00:23:28,744 --> 00:23:34,119
followings, can blend both sides of it, and
it's like a new fleet of scientists almost
439
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,960
social media scientists, if you will?
440
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,480
I think we're there, actually.
441
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,880
I think we're already there, and I do think
that the younger generations of scientists are
442
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,039
are understanding this more and more.
443
00:23:44,325 --> 00:23:48,325
I actually teach a class at Stanford called How
to Communicate Science, where where, you know,
444
00:23:48,325 --> 00:23:53,524
David Eagleman teaches it with me and we're
trying to inspire the next generation of PhD
445
00:23:53,524 --> 00:23:57,924
students and researchers to consider writing
public facing articles or jumping on social
446
00:23:57,924 --> 00:23:58,565
media and whatnot.
447
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:01,619
And and there's a there's a hearty response for
it, right?
448
00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:06,019
These younger students want it, so I think that
we are getting there and a decade from now or
449
00:24:06,019 --> 00:24:10,339
the next generation of scientists will be much
more prone to using public facing communication
450
00:24:10,339 --> 00:24:10,900
methods.
451
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:17,275
However, I do think there's a risk that what
could happen is, as you know, there are, you
452
00:24:17,275 --> 00:24:19,914
know, in one of my videos I say I'm a
scientist, not a bullshit guy.
453
00:24:19,914 --> 00:24:22,714
There's a lot of bullshit guys on social media.
454
00:24:22,714 --> 00:24:28,234
And what could happen, what might happen, is
that the ratio of bullshit guys to actual
455
00:24:28,234 --> 00:24:34,660
scientists gets so disproportionately ugly
scientists start to view social media as
456
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:39,619
nothing but a pit of garbage, that if for them
to go in there and associate with a platform
457
00:24:39,619 --> 00:24:43,765
like Instagram or TikTok will make them look
bad because they're dragging their own name
458
00:24:43,765 --> 00:24:46,244
through a mud pit of all misinformation.
459
00:24:46,644 --> 00:24:50,565
And if we allow it to get that bad, then I
think that science could become even more
460
00:24:50,565 --> 00:24:54,484
siloed, where it's like we don't, you know, we
don't affiliate with that, like that's where
461
00:24:54,484 --> 00:24:55,599
the scientists go.
462
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,279
So like if you see someone on social media
talking about science, they're not real because
463
00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:03,839
we don't use it, you know, and that would be, I
mean, that would be terrible, and in a way
464
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:05,200
that's also sort of happening.
465
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,714
So I don't know, it's disaster to be to be
honest.
466
00:25:09,714 --> 00:25:10,914
It is a disaster.
467
00:25:10,914 --> 00:25:14,674
Us humans are great at navigating those
historically, I've heard too, so
468
00:25:14,595 --> 00:25:14,994
Yeah.
469
00:25:14,994 --> 00:25:15,234
Yeah.
470
00:25:15,234 --> 00:25:16,194
We'll get through it.
471
00:25:17,474 --> 00:25:19,634
How do you decide between a bullshitter or a
not?
472
00:25:19,634 --> 00:25:22,115
Like, what's your what's your mechanism for
that?
473
00:25:22,115 --> 00:25:22,515
Alright.
474
00:25:22,515 --> 00:25:24,359
I mean, first actually, no.
475
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,920
All it really comes down to is what are they
claiming and is it true.
476
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,600
That's pretty much all that all that matters.
477
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,440
And it starts with their credentials.
478
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,440
Many I've noticed that a lot of so I work in
neuroscience, I pay attention to the
479
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,720
neuroscience creators the most, and I've
noticed that a lot of these creators in this
480
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,194
space who don't have credentials start their
videos by saying I'm a neuroscientist.
481
00:25:43,275 --> 00:25:46,394
They're like within the first, like, five
seconds.
482
00:25:46,394 --> 00:25:50,394
They pose a hook and then they're like I'm a
neuroscientist, here's the answer.
483
00:25:50,394 --> 00:25:56,200
And a lot of the time when you dig into that
claim, the claim I am a neuroscientist, okay,
484
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,960
you're a neuroscientist, that implies that you
have, in my opinion, that implies that you are
485
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,599
actively conducting scientific research, right?
486
00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:04,279
A scientist is a career path, right?
487
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:10,285
I wouldn't say that I was a hairstylist if I
did my, you know, my friend's hair five years
488
00:26:10,285 --> 00:26:13,164
ago and I used to have like a little salon in
my in my basement.
489
00:26:13,244 --> 00:26:14,525
I'm no longer a hairstylist, right?
490
00:26:14,525 --> 00:26:16,445
I used to be a hairstylist, whatever, it's a
career.
491
00:26:16,445 --> 00:26:20,684
And so what really upsets me is when I see
people who like, you know, they do like an
492
00:26:20,684 --> 00:26:25,500
undergraduate degree, like a bachelor's in
biology, and they like worked in a research lab
493
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:30,299
for sixty days and are like second last author
on one research paper and they're like I'm a
494
00:26:30,299 --> 00:26:31,099
neuroscientist.
495
00:26:31,099 --> 00:26:34,940
And it's so muddy because it's like are you a
neuroscientist, are you not?
496
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:40,674
To me, I think, you know, and maybe this is
like like gatekeepy of me, but I think if
497
00:26:40,674 --> 00:26:43,315
you're gonna go online and you're gonna say
you're a neuroscientist, you should have a PhD
498
00:26:43,315 --> 00:26:48,755
and have done a research in neuroscience, or
you should be a PhD student is a
499
00:26:48,755 --> 00:26:49,315
neuroscientist.
500
00:26:49,315 --> 00:26:51,714
They are spending their career doing
neuroscience research.
501
00:26:52,115 --> 00:26:56,589
And and basically what it turns out is that all
the people who say I'm a neuroscientist are non
502
00:26:56,589 --> 00:26:58,829
neuroscientists, by my definition at least.
503
00:26:59,309 --> 00:27:00,429
So that's the first thing.
504
00:27:00,429 --> 00:27:03,230
Then let's get past their credentials just to
what they're actually saying.
505
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:08,664
I mean it's the more loosely someone talks
about a topic, the more prone they are to
506
00:27:08,664 --> 00:27:10,744
misrepresenting it, naturally, right?
507
00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:14,744
So like science communication is a difficult
job because you're trying to take really,
508
00:27:14,744 --> 00:27:18,585
really nuanced material and make it very clear,
and so in order to do that you have to zoom
509
00:27:18,585 --> 00:27:23,630
out, have to step back, and you have to explain
it in a very broad general way that leaves out
510
00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:24,989
a lot of the nuance and detail.
511
00:27:25,069 --> 00:27:29,470
And when people who really understand a topic
do that, they do it well, because they're
512
00:27:29,470 --> 00:27:33,549
representing the topic in the way that it needs
to be represented, but it can also be done in a
513
00:27:33,549 --> 00:27:39,984
way that removes so much nuance and strays so
far from the actual data that it becomes
514
00:27:39,984 --> 00:27:45,904
misinformation, it becomes just not true, and
that's what I also look for is if a person is
515
00:27:45,904 --> 00:27:50,940
talking about a subject very broadly and
they're just making claims, this is associated
516
00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:54,299
with this and that and this, whatever, are they
citing studies?
517
00:27:54,299 --> 00:27:55,740
Are they showing their evidence?
518
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,099
Are they is it even true?
519
00:27:57,099 --> 00:28:01,500
Like if you just pluck out one of the claims
and you do a search online, is it true what
520
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:02,299
they're saying?
521
00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:05,755
And yeah, unfortunately, like I said, there's a
lot of bullshit guys right now.
522
00:28:05,755 --> 00:28:09,034
There's a lot of people who, if you do that and
if you fact check them, you'll find it's
523
00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:09,674
actually not true.
524
00:28:09,674 --> 00:28:14,154
And so I'm hoping that we'll have more tools
that will be like online fact checkers, that
525
00:28:14,154 --> 00:28:19,039
you can like plug a YouTube video in or TikTok
video in and it'll just transcribe the text and
526
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:23,440
do like a, you know, PubMed search and say this
is whether, you know, it's true or it's false
527
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,679
or there's parts of it that are true, there's
parts of it that are false.
528
00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:29,440
Because right now the average person can't do
that and there's a lot of people who take
529
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,025
advantage of the inaccessibility of the
information because if they say something and
530
00:28:33,025 --> 00:28:36,464
you have no way to fact check it because you
cannot access scientific papers and you cannot
531
00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:39,505
interpret scientific papers, you are
automatically going to be forced to basically
532
00:28:39,505 --> 00:28:42,224
believe them and and that's, that's a dirty
practice.
533
00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:43,799
It's a very, very dirty practice.
534
00:28:43,799 --> 00:28:47,640
So I I have a lot of distrust on the Internet
because there's a lot of fake stuff.
535
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,240
Have you ever seen Consensus AI?
536
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,039
Have you ever used that?
537
00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:50,599
No.
538
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:52,039
I've heard of it though, I think.
539
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,319
We use that a lot for DecisionLab and, like,
examining claims.
540
00:28:55,319 --> 00:29:00,035
I use it for my own content a lot as well, but
it sits on the top of PubMed and, like,
541
00:29:00,035 --> 00:29:05,475
PsycINFO and, like, all of these research
databases and pulls only from research and then
542
00:29:05,475 --> 00:29:06,994
gives you, like, a consensus meter.
543
00:29:06,994 --> 00:29:10,980
You put in a claim and then it's like, this
percent of research supports it, this percent
544
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:12,660
doesn't, or it's like it's undecided.
545
00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:17,380
And then it's like, this research, it was a
meta analysis of 25 piece thing.
546
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:19,859
This was a observational study that whatever.
547
00:29:19,859 --> 00:29:23,934
And it makes it really, really simple and easy
to understand some of that and, like, be that
548
00:29:23,934 --> 00:29:25,055
BS detector.
549
00:29:25,055 --> 00:29:25,535
Yeah.
550
00:29:25,535 --> 00:29:25,855
That's a great
551
00:29:25,855 --> 00:29:26,414
tool.
552
00:29:26,815 --> 00:29:28,414
We use that we use that a ton.
553
00:29:28,414 --> 00:29:30,335
It's interesting too because I see this a ton.
554
00:29:30,335 --> 00:29:35,855
Even I fell into this as well because I have a
I'm a I have a cognitive cognitive behavioral
555
00:29:35,855 --> 00:29:37,455
neuroscience undergraduate degree.
556
00:29:37,455 --> 00:29:38,575
That's my like, what I have.
557
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:40,920
As a young undergraduate, I was like, oh, yay.
558
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:41,559
I get to start.
559
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:43,799
My brother has a mechanical engineering degree.
560
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:44,679
He's an engineer.
561
00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:46,039
I have a neuroscience degree.
562
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:47,240
I'm a neuroscientist.
563
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,559
And I quickly realized that that's not how the
rest of the scientific community looks at it.
564
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,515
So I try to say I have a degree or I don't try.
565
00:29:54,515 --> 00:29:58,994
I do say I have a degree in cognitive
neuroscience as opposed to the hook of I am a
566
00:29:58,994 --> 00:29:59,954
neuroscientist.
567
00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:01,394
Because I do I see that a lot too.
568
00:30:01,394 --> 00:30:02,195
And I was like, what?
569
00:30:02,195 --> 00:30:02,914
What is this?
570
00:30:02,914 --> 00:30:03,154
Yeah.
571
00:30:03,154 --> 00:30:04,115
And I had
572
00:30:04,769 --> 00:30:09,410
Sorry, I'm not gonna say any names, but there
are some like really bad offenders of this that
573
00:30:09,410 --> 00:30:14,690
are like they have massive audiences and every
single video they remind you, Hi, I'm this
574
00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:17,650
person and I'm a neuroscientist, and you know,
they're not.
575
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:23,964
They're just simply not a neuroscientist and
and it's it's, it's concerning because when you
576
00:30:23,964 --> 00:30:27,644
say to the general public I'm a neuroscientist,
people are like wow okay, well you know what
577
00:30:27,644 --> 00:30:29,164
you're talking about, what are you gonna say?
578
00:30:29,164 --> 00:30:32,765
And then you say take this supplement because
it'll reduce the chances of you getting
579
00:30:32,765 --> 00:30:36,500
dementia, there's a link in my bio, and you're
like okay, well this guy's a frickin'
580
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:39,059
neuroscientist, I'm gonna buy his stuff, right?
581
00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:44,900
But then if you I'm trying to be very cautious
here, but I've heard of scenarios where people
582
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:49,384
like that have been actually taken to or have
gone to court because other people have said
583
00:30:49,384 --> 00:30:54,505
you're actually not a neuroscientist, and they
reply that's defamation, I am a neuroscientist,
584
00:30:54,585 --> 00:31:00,720
and then in court they argue that they are a
neuroscientist because for a career they study
585
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,759
neuroscience.
586
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:06,559
They read the literature and they talk about it
online, and so they are studying neuroscience
587
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:10,960
by reading about it online, and that makes them
a neuroscientist and that's like literally
588
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,759
argued in court.
589
00:31:12,025 --> 00:31:16,585
And so it's horrifying, it's completely
horrifying because it's like I could just go
590
00:31:16,585 --> 00:31:20,105
online and be like I'm an astronaut and then
someone sues me and I could or I could if
591
00:31:20,105 --> 00:31:22,184
someone says something wrong about me I could
sue them.
592
00:31:22,184 --> 00:31:23,865
Like what what is going on?
593
00:31:23,865 --> 00:31:28,940
And this is just like what's so terrifying
about the world right now is that we have truth
594
00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:29,500
decay.
595
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:34,460
We are losing our sense of what is true and it
used to be very obvious that it was like what's
596
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:34,779
true?
597
00:31:34,779 --> 00:31:37,259
Well, it's whatever the evidence says, right?
598
00:31:37,339 --> 00:31:42,254
And now we can point to evidence and say that
evidence is biased, that evidence is flawed, I
599
00:31:42,254 --> 00:31:45,454
saw that evidence on the news station I don't
trust and therefore it's fake.
600
00:31:45,454 --> 00:31:49,694
And this is where things are just getting so
incredibly terrifying, because when we have a
601
00:31:49,694 --> 00:31:56,359
nation that is led not by data and evidence,
but by opinions, we dramatically fall behind
602
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:02,039
and rapidly fall behind other nations that do
follow data and do follow evidence, because if
603
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:08,454
you have a military that the evidence says we
are much weaker than other militaries, but the
604
00:32:08,454 --> 00:32:12,375
president says our military is the strongest
military in the world and you believe that
605
00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:14,774
person, like this is a problem, right?
606
00:32:14,774 --> 00:32:19,494
And military is a clear example because, like,
there's significant repercussions, but also how
607
00:32:19,494 --> 00:32:20,375
about medicine, right?
608
00:32:20,375 --> 00:32:24,880
When we have people dying of conditions and
saying certain medications are the cure and
609
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,840
they're not and people start taking them and
then people start dying because they're not
610
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,799
taking the right medications, like the
repercussions are astronomical and like how
611
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,320
even do approach a topic like this?
612
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,840
How do you even fix a situation when people
don't know what's real anymore?
613
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:43,325
That is so scary and dystopian, and something I
think about way too often for my own
614
00:32:43,325 --> 00:32:43,804
well-being.
615
00:32:43,804 --> 00:32:44,365
I feel you.
616
00:32:44,365 --> 00:32:46,044
I mean, that's at the heart of why we started
this show.
617
00:32:46,044 --> 00:32:50,605
I mean, we have literally had founders on that
call themselves doctors or, like, this claim
618
00:32:50,605 --> 00:32:53,390
they have PhDs, and we start to ask them, okay.
619
00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:54,829
Well, like, what was your research on?
620
00:32:54,829 --> 00:32:55,789
What was your dissertation?
621
00:32:55,789 --> 00:32:57,309
Like, and, well, I didn't do a dissertation.
622
00:32:57,309 --> 00:33:00,910
I I didn't really do research, and this was in
the Cayman Islands that I got this.
623
00:33:00,910 --> 00:33:02,109
And I was just like, what?
624
00:33:02,109 --> 00:33:05,845
And so to me, it's like, for the answer for us
is, like, let's have a conversation.
625
00:33:05,845 --> 00:33:07,204
Let's talk about this and, like, really Yeah.
626
00:33:07,285 --> 00:33:12,404
Let people determine for themselves in a way,
but by asking, like, really, really intense
627
00:33:12,404 --> 00:33:13,605
questions and stuff like that.
628
00:33:13,605 --> 00:33:14,884
So but I agree with you.
629
00:33:14,884 --> 00:33:16,644
It is it's the Wild West out there.
630
00:33:16,644 --> 00:33:16,964
It's scary.
631
00:33:16,964 --> 00:33:18,325
And I'm in the mental health space too.
632
00:33:18,325 --> 00:33:23,009
So sometimes it's not even just mental health
claims are even crazier because that more of
633
00:33:23,009 --> 00:33:25,009
what I do as as a trauma therapist anyways.
634
00:33:25,009 --> 00:33:29,009
Like, I bring in a ton of neuroscience into
what I do when I see patients.
635
00:33:29,009 --> 00:33:32,369
And there's just a lot that you can do to
really especially in the trauma space that
636
00:33:32,369 --> 00:33:33,729
messes people up worse.
637
00:33:33,809 --> 00:33:35,545
So it's just like, it's crazy.
638
00:33:35,705 --> 00:33:39,785
Well, mean, and there's documented cases of
where the harm falls, right?
639
00:33:39,785 --> 00:33:44,025
Like for instance, when it comes to cancer
treatment, right, we know that chemotherapy is
640
00:33:44,025 --> 00:33:44,744
the gold standard.
641
00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:49,329
It's not perfect by any means, it has obviously
severe side effects, but if you're trying to
642
00:33:49,329 --> 00:33:52,210
improve the likelihood of survival,
chemotherapy is the best option.
643
00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:57,490
But there are a lot of people on social media
who say chemotherapy is just, you know, poison
644
00:33:57,490 --> 00:34:01,730
and if you want to really survive you should do
this or that, you know, get a sauna, take this
645
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:04,085
supplement, you know, natural therapies.
646
00:34:04,085 --> 00:34:09,045
And there's like literally published evidence
on this topic showing that like people, many
647
00:34:09,045 --> 00:34:14,644
people have died because they have listened to
social media over their doctors, and they've
648
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:19,820
there was a recent, very recent case where a
woman died because she was doing coffee enemas
649
00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:24,380
because that's what social media suggested, and
and not doing chemotherapy, and it's like
650
00:34:24,539 --> 00:34:25,820
We just did a video on this.
651
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:29,900
I am so passionate about how stupid coffee
enemas are, like, I'm sorry.
652
00:34:30,014 --> 00:34:30,894
Like Yeah.
653
00:34:30,654 --> 00:34:32,414
That's I didn't know that though.
654
00:34:32,974 --> 00:34:35,454
Like, this there are real people.
655
00:34:35,454 --> 00:34:41,775
It's just it's so scary that the the incentive
for someone to make content that is sensational
656
00:34:41,775 --> 00:34:45,135
and is whatever catches on with someone, right,
gives a person hope.
657
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:48,800
The incentive is so high because you get more
followers, you get more views, you get more
658
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,920
money, you get more opportunities, that those
people will do that at the expense of literal
659
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:54,559
lives.
660
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:58,795
And surely they don't they're not like Oh, I'm
killing people on purpose, right?
661
00:34:58,795 --> 00:35:00,875
Like they probably think coffee enemas actually
work.
662
00:35:00,875 --> 00:35:05,515
That's probably why they're sharing it so much,
but like it's just nerve racking because when
663
00:35:05,515 --> 00:35:10,155
you lose trust in data, then you lose trust in
authority, right?
664
00:35:10,155 --> 00:35:12,074
Because you have and you lose trust in
expertise.
665
00:35:12,429 --> 00:35:16,590
You have doctors who go to medical schools that
when you see the doctor they can answer your
666
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:18,750
question because they know about the human
body.
667
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:22,750
And if you start to distrust your doctor and
start to listen to social media, I mean,
668
00:35:23,309 --> 00:35:26,045
there's just there are consequences, and it's
it's very worrying.
669
00:35:26,045 --> 00:35:30,445
You study social behavior, and we continue to
say social media.
670
00:35:30,525 --> 00:35:36,045
Why do brains who are on that are on social
media why does this happen?
671
00:35:36,045 --> 00:35:37,324
Why how do we get to this place?
672
00:35:37,579 --> 00:35:40,860
Like, with your lens on social behavior, how is
this the thing?
673
00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:42,699
Because if you you say this, know, like, that
makes no sense.
674
00:35:42,699 --> 00:35:44,699
Why would you ever listen to social media over
a doctor?
675
00:35:44,699 --> 00:35:45,579
Like, what the hell?
676
00:35:45,579 --> 00:35:46,539
But it happens.
677
00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:48,539
So what's the brain thing?
678
00:35:48,619 --> 00:35:49,099
What's going on?
679
00:35:49,099 --> 00:35:52,605
I mean, okay, so there are parts of it that are
social, obviously, right?
680
00:35:52,605 --> 00:35:56,684
So like you're scrolling on Instagram, let's
say, and it's you're receiving social
681
00:35:56,684 --> 00:35:57,244
information.
682
00:35:57,244 --> 00:36:01,164
You have a person posted they just had a kid,
that you have a person posting they just bought
683
00:36:01,164 --> 00:36:04,045
a house, you have a person posting their
grandmother just died, right?
684
00:36:04,045 --> 00:36:07,390
Like you are or you have a person posting
here's what my body looks like in a bikini,
685
00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:07,869
right?
686
00:36:07,950 --> 00:36:11,469
You have all this social information that's
coming to you, and that information is valuable
687
00:36:11,469 --> 00:36:15,869
because we are social animals, we live we
survive best in social environments, we care a
688
00:36:15,869 --> 00:36:18,110
lot about our social experience on Earth.
689
00:36:18,074 --> 00:36:22,554
So when you have a platform that allows you to
just gather and harvest social information
690
00:36:22,554 --> 00:36:26,394
without having to actually like do any work,
there's a natural appeal to it.
691
00:36:26,474 --> 00:36:31,355
Then you start mixing in here's a video of, you
know, a cheetah running top speed and chasing
692
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:35,920
down an animal, whatever they chased out, you
know, and here's a video of people fighting and
693
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,400
that's really emotion emotional as well.
694
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,000
And you have just this non stop, literally this
is like an operant chamber for a mouse.
695
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,724
You have a mouse that can press a lever and if
you have a mouse in a chamber that they, when
696
00:36:47,724 --> 00:36:52,284
they press the lever, they receive a zap to
their brain's dopamine centers, so nothing
697
00:36:52,284 --> 00:36:54,525
actually happens, it just drives dopamine
release.
698
00:36:54,605 --> 00:36:58,284
They will just sit there and just press that
lever over and over and over, and it's very
699
00:36:58,284 --> 00:37:03,340
reminiscent to what's happening when someone is
swiping on social media and just over and over,
700
00:37:03,340 --> 00:37:04,780
Is this gonna hit my dopamine center?
701
00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:05,340
Ah, a little bit.
702
00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:05,820
Is this one?
703
00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:06,780
Oh, this one's great.
704
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:07,260
Is this one?
705
00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:08,619
You know, that's all we're doing.
706
00:37:08,619 --> 00:37:12,045
Also very similar to pulling a, you know,
sitting at a slot machine, just pulling the
707
00:37:12,045 --> 00:37:16,684
lever over and over, and so I think that what's
all that's happening is that because of the way
708
00:37:16,684 --> 00:37:21,964
these these platforms are are built to
capitalize on our desire to stay for more
709
00:37:21,964 --> 00:37:26,840
information, we're just spending inordinate
amounts of time there, and naturally as a
710
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,920
consequence of that I think we are listening to
the voices we hear there, you know, and people
711
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,960
are also, you know, creators, they also prey
upon people's natural dispositions and they
712
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,974
recognize that, you know, oh there's a big
controversy in The U.
713
00:37:38,974 --> 00:37:39,135
S.
714
00:37:39,135 --> 00:37:43,934
Right now about autism and Tylenol, and they
know that if they go on social media and they
715
00:37:43,934 --> 00:37:49,454
say, Tylenol doesn't cause autism, this is so
stupid, Donald Trump is an idiot, there's a lot
716
00:37:49,454 --> 00:37:52,579
of people out there who are gonna be like, Wow,
this is exactly what I thought and what I
717
00:37:52,579 --> 00:37:54,579
wanted to hear and that's reinforcing my
beliefs.
718
00:37:54,579 --> 00:37:56,579
Yay, I'm gonna like this, I'm gonna follow this
person.
719
00:37:56,739 --> 00:38:00,420
Or if there's other people going, The doctors
are now coming out and saying Tylenol doesn't
720
00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:00,980
cause autism.
721
00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:03,539
Of course they are, because they're trying to
protect big pharma and they're all funded by
722
00:38:03,539 --> 00:38:05,140
big pharma and we know that Donald Trump is
right.
723
00:38:05,454 --> 00:38:08,894
There's a huge audience of people who are going
to listen to that and say this is exactly what
724
00:38:08,894 --> 00:38:10,974
I thought too, I'm going to follow this person,
right?
725
00:38:10,974 --> 00:38:17,214
And so we end up getting into these horrible
dividing trenches where we are so we're just
726
00:38:17,214 --> 00:38:21,719
following our own opinions and and the
emotional stakes are rising, because I think
727
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,680
when we have the ability to divide us from
them, that's something the brain pays a lot of
728
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,400
attention to.
729
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,880
It's natural we have these tribalistic
tendencies, right?
730
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,400
We treat people differently.
731
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,945
Our brains treat people differently if we if
they seem to identify as our in group.
732
00:38:36,025 --> 00:38:39,864
And there's literally studies showing that the
brain's empathy centers will activate more
733
00:38:39,864 --> 00:38:42,425
strongly if someone shares something in common
with you.
734
00:38:42,425 --> 00:38:46,265
So when someone doesn't, they kind of become
dehumanized in your brain where your brain's
735
00:38:46,265 --> 00:38:49,920
empathy centers are not turning on as much,
you're not paying responding quite as much to
736
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,079
their emotions, you're not experiencing as much
empathy for them, and we have this kind of
737
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,920
division, this like political division leaking
into so many different things.
738
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,679
I mean when before has autism or Tylenol been
political?
739
00:39:01,985 --> 00:39:07,985
And so now you take a completely neutral topic
like Tylenol, and then you assign this
740
00:39:07,985 --> 00:39:12,224
fiftyfifty divide, where now some people don't
believe in Tylenol and some people do believe
741
00:39:12,224 --> 00:39:16,144
in Tylenol, and when you encounter someone with
that different opinion, it raises to your
742
00:39:16,144 --> 00:39:18,640
awareness the division between you and them.
743
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640
They are the outgroup, therefore my empathy is
gonna shut down, it's easier for me to be
744
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,840
hostile to them because I don't feel the guilt
of their pain inflicting back onto me because
745
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,360
of that's what empathy does, it makes us feel
out of people's emotions, and we just end up in
746
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,574
this increasingly hateful divided world,
because all these topics that should not be
747
00:39:35,574 --> 00:39:40,054
political are becoming political, and social
media is, you know, actually I published a
748
00:39:40,054 --> 00:39:44,054
paper a couple years ago, I called it this
hypothesis, the virtual disengagement
749
00:39:44,054 --> 00:39:49,539
hypothesis, referring to the idea that the
brain's empathy centers further or they
750
00:39:49,539 --> 00:39:54,659
disengage or they shut down when we are online
because we don't have social cues to inform
751
00:39:54,659 --> 00:39:57,860
them, because that's basically how the brain's
empathy centers work.
752
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:03,324
When we see facial expressions, we hear vocal
tone, we take in body language, we have all
753
00:40:03,324 --> 00:40:07,085
these social cues that tell our brains this is
a human being in front of me and they are
754
00:40:07,085 --> 00:40:11,324
experiencing these emotions, and so therefore
you are gonna take on some of those emotions
755
00:40:11,324 --> 00:40:11,965
yourself.
756
00:40:12,045 --> 00:40:15,805
But when we don't have that online, we don't
have those social cues, our brains aren't, like
757
00:40:15,805 --> 00:40:19,650
99% of human existence, we have interacted face
to face.
758
00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:24,849
Our brains are not designed to detect that a
social entity is on the other side of this text
759
00:40:24,849 --> 00:40:30,530
on my phone screen, and so it's very natural
and kind of predictable that we would
760
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:35,635
experience less empathy online, which I argue
in the paper could explain the extreme levels
761
00:40:35,635 --> 00:40:37,795
of hostility and division we see online.
762
00:40:37,875 --> 00:40:42,514
So then you take all this political division
and allow people to interact more and more
763
00:40:42,514 --> 00:40:48,980
online and choose their in groups and cater or
tailor their social media feeds to feed them
764
00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:53,859
exactly what their disposition tells them is
true, and you just get even more division and
765
00:40:53,859 --> 00:40:54,260
hate.
766
00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:59,780
And and I think that this is really at the core
of our big social problem in America right now
767
00:40:59,780 --> 00:41:05,695
because a lot more of our interactions with our
the world around us and our fellow Americans
768
00:41:05,695 --> 00:41:10,094
are happening in these contexts where there's
little empathy and we see people for whether
769
00:41:10,094 --> 00:41:11,855
they identify with us or not.
770
00:41:11,855 --> 00:41:19,269
I think we are collectively, bit by bit, losing
this sense of identifying with, like, humanity
771
00:41:19,269 --> 00:41:20,150
in general, right?
772
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:25,109
Like the the amount of the world that we
identify with is shrinking by day as we're
773
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:28,710
finding new reasons to separate from others:
Tylenol, autism, right?
774
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:34,184
All these different things, and I think that is
causing a lot of underlying issues because
775
00:41:34,184 --> 00:41:39,224
social connection is extremely important for
our well-being and isolation is extremely bad
776
00:41:39,224 --> 00:41:39,704
for us.
777
00:41:39,704 --> 00:41:45,699
So I just have a lot of thoughts on this, you
know, and I hate to like be like over here like
778
00:41:45,699 --> 00:41:50,099
slamming the bell, like the alarm bell, right,
but this is kind of how I see the world, you
779
00:41:50,099 --> 00:41:53,699
know, like I mentioned at the beginning that my
training is the lens through which I see the
780
00:41:53,699 --> 00:41:59,014
world, and when I see, you know, political
division in America, I see less healthy brains,
781
00:41:59,014 --> 00:42:04,054
you know, and when I see people interacting
online, I see the absence of social cues.
782
00:42:04,934 --> 00:42:10,210
Yeah, all these things have kind of informed my
my perspective on what's wrong today, again,
783
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:12,690
that's like why I wrote the book, because I'm
hoping that if someone reads the book, they
784
00:42:12,690 --> 00:42:15,890
will recognize, oh yeah, there's these like
flaws in the world.
785
00:42:16,289 --> 00:42:20,930
Now that I'm aware of them, I might actually
try and tailor my life a little bit differently
786
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:23,650
so that I can have a better existence and a
healthier existence.
787
00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:27,884
Can you give an example of like how you would
teach somebody to improve empathy?
788
00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:33,244
Yeah, there's actually like trainings that have
been tested and shown to enhance empathy.
789
00:42:33,244 --> 00:42:34,605
So I'll give you two of them.
790
00:42:34,605 --> 00:42:34,844
Mhmm.
791
00:42:34,844 --> 00:42:37,565
The first is a, it's called an affect dyad.
792
00:42:37,710 --> 00:42:43,150
So the idea is you you have two people, you're
sitting together face to face, and one person
793
00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:47,710
starts by telling the story of something that
happened to them in the last, like, day or two.
794
00:42:47,710 --> 00:42:50,030
Something emotional, something that was
impactful for them.
795
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:53,264
It could be good or bad, it doesn't really
matter, but it should be substantial, right,
796
00:42:53,264 --> 00:42:56,545
it's not just like, oh, went to the grocery
store, it's like this person slipped on my foot
797
00:42:56,545 --> 00:43:00,465
and then started yelling at me, like something
like that, right, and the other person's job is
798
00:43:00,465 --> 00:43:02,545
to do absolutely nothing but listen.
799
00:43:02,545 --> 00:43:06,590
Just look at the person, they listen intently,
they do not interrupt, they don't even have to
800
00:43:06,590 --> 00:43:10,269
respond like with like cues or anything,
they're just listening, and they're working
801
00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:13,550
hard to really embody the emotions of what the
person is describing.
802
00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:16,349
And the person describing should be as
descriptive as possible, you know, oh I felt
803
00:43:16,349 --> 00:43:19,630
like this in this moment, and then I started to
wonder if this was happening, and you as the
804
00:43:19,630 --> 00:43:22,045
listener are just listening, and and then you
switch.
805
00:43:22,285 --> 00:43:26,445
And so that exercise, as you can imagine, is
supportive of building empathy, because you are
806
00:43:26,445 --> 00:43:29,565
literally just for a few minutes doing nothing
but practicing empathy.
807
00:43:29,565 --> 00:43:32,765
It's like you're doing bicep curls, but for the
brain areas that drive empathy.
808
00:43:33,019 --> 00:43:38,860
And then another example of a practice that you
can try is called a loving kindness meditation,
809
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:40,940
and this one's great because it's a meditation.
810
00:43:40,940 --> 00:43:44,460
You can literally like, you can go to YouTube
right now and Google loving kindness meditation
811
00:43:44,460 --> 00:43:45,339
and find one.
812
00:43:45,339 --> 00:43:50,625
And the concept is that you imagine a person
and that person can be a stranger, they can be
813
00:43:50,625 --> 00:43:52,385
a close friend, it could be a sibling.
814
00:43:52,385 --> 00:43:56,224
It's usually easiest to start with someone you
really care about and all you're doing is
815
00:43:56,224 --> 00:44:02,139
you're imagining extending feelings of love and
kindness, loving kindness meditation, to this
816
00:44:02,139 --> 00:44:02,539
person.
817
00:44:02,539 --> 00:44:06,059
You know, you are just sending them warmth, are
sending them care, and you're experiencing,
818
00:44:06,059 --> 00:44:10,940
you're you're just relishing that feeling of
wanting the best for someone and hoping that
819
00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:11,980
they're doing well.
820
00:44:11,980 --> 00:44:15,820
And then what you can do is, let's say first
time you did it, you did it with your mom.
821
00:44:15,875 --> 00:44:18,994
Super easy to do, you love your mom, you have a
great relationship.
822
00:44:19,074 --> 00:44:23,714
Okay, now what about you try your sister who
you don't really get along with as well?
823
00:44:23,714 --> 00:44:27,474
You get there, you get to the point of being
able to do it, okay, now what about trying your
824
00:44:27,474 --> 00:44:31,570
neighbor who you've never actually talked to,
but what you have noticed about them is that
825
00:44:31,570 --> 00:44:36,690
they are of a different religious faith and
that they are of a different political party.
826
00:44:36,769 --> 00:44:40,690
They've, you know, someone who you normally
would not extend this kind of feeling to, you
827
00:44:40,690 --> 00:44:41,570
practice that.
828
00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:47,974
And with time, you may be able to strengthen
the ability to like overcome our brain's urges
829
00:44:48,454 --> 00:44:52,614
to discount the empathy we experience for
people who are different or people who we don't
830
00:44:52,614 --> 00:44:53,894
particularly like.
831
00:44:53,894 --> 00:44:59,219
And there's a study that looked at those two
tasks along with a few other tasks, and they
832
00:44:59,219 --> 00:45:04,260
found that at the end of the trial, I think it
was 90 of doing this, like daily, the people
833
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:07,860
not only experienced like greater empathy and
compassion, but they also had literally
834
00:45:07,860 --> 00:45:10,900
thickened certain parts of the brain that are
associated with empathy.
835
00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:16,295
They literally built new neural hardware to
allow them to perform these actions, and that's
836
00:45:16,295 --> 00:45:16,855
pretty powerful.
837
00:45:16,855 --> 00:45:21,335
And it also tells us that empathy is not
necessarily hard set.
838
00:45:21,335 --> 00:45:25,815
We can always change it in either direction,
you know, and and there are also experiences
839
00:45:25,815 --> 00:45:29,440
that are associated with a loss of empathy,
like going through medical school,
840
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,000
interestingly, because you are exposed to the
pain and suffering of people in hospitals every
841
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,960
day, and your brain is like this is too
painful, it's actually adaptive to sort of
842
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,075
shrink back a bit and not take on people's
emotions as much, and so it's actually been
843
00:45:43,075 --> 00:45:46,755
shown that as people go through, as students go
through medical school, their empathy declines.
844
00:45:46,755 --> 00:45:48,114
So we are flexible.
845
00:45:48,114 --> 00:45:52,755
Our empathy is shaped generally through early
life, but even in adulthood it remains
846
00:45:52,755 --> 00:45:53,315
adaptive.
847
00:45:53,315 --> 00:45:56,510
That is honestly terrifying to hear that about,
but it makes sense.
848
00:45:56,510 --> 00:45:58,349
I mean, dissociation helps.
849
00:45:58,349 --> 00:46:01,789
I write a lot and talk about how dissociation
is not a bad thing.
850
00:46:01,789 --> 00:46:02,989
Oftentimes, it can help you.
851
00:46:02,989 --> 00:46:03,869
It can be adaptive.
852
00:46:03,869 --> 00:46:07,469
But Vision Lagiani has a great loving kindness
meditation on YouTube.
853
00:46:07,469 --> 00:46:10,235
If you're looking for a specific one, it's one
that I recommend.
854
00:46:10,555 --> 00:46:15,594
Question I have for you is we have an entire
group of humans that practice empathy
855
00:46:15,594 --> 00:46:18,474
constantly, feel like, like therapists and
social workers.
856
00:46:18,474 --> 00:46:20,635
Like, I remember getting trained in IFS.
857
00:46:20,715 --> 00:46:22,795
I have internal family systems as a type of
psychotherapy.
858
00:46:22,795 --> 00:46:23,755
That's what I'm trained in.
859
00:46:23,755 --> 00:46:30,050
I I could, like, feel my brain getting more
empathetic just by having that framework.
860
00:46:30,289 --> 00:46:32,130
Is there any data on that kind of stuff?
861
00:46:32,130 --> 00:46:37,184
Or, like, being the big thing IFS considers is
curiosity, like, being curious and
862
00:46:37,184 --> 00:46:40,224
compassionate with someone else whether or not
like there's got to be a reason that they got
863
00:46:40,224 --> 00:46:42,625
to the perspective that they have, even if
they're in my out group.
864
00:46:42,785 --> 00:46:47,664
Is there any like data on that kind of stuff
for like therapists and like
865
00:46:47,664 --> 00:46:48,945
those kinds Yeah, it's interesting.
866
00:46:48,945 --> 00:46:53,099
I mean not that I'm aware of explicitly looking
at that question, but I believe it.
867
00:46:53,099 --> 00:46:54,619
I absolutely believe it to be true.
868
00:46:54,619 --> 00:46:59,500
I mean I think that the kind of person who
chooses to be a therapist from the beginning
869
00:46:59,579 --> 00:47:03,019
must be probably more empathic than the average
person, right?
870
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:07,579
Because you care about others, and that may
also be true for doctors as well, right?
871
00:47:07,805 --> 00:47:09,644
For medical, like physicians, right?
872
00:47:09,644 --> 00:47:14,125
They may lose some of their empathy in medical
training, but they probably start out wanting
873
00:47:14,125 --> 00:47:16,605
to help others or wanting to make a large
salary.
874
00:47:16,605 --> 00:47:17,644
There's also that possibility.
875
00:47:17,644 --> 00:47:23,300
Yeah, mean, IFS I will say I have been the
recipient of IFS as a patient, and that stuff
876
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:23,860
is amazing.
877
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:25,300
I I'm a big fan of IFS.
878
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:26,260
Let's go.
879
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:27,140
I love that.
880
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:27,300
Yeah.
881
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:31,140
It helps you kind of build the kinds of
connections you're describing within yourself
882
00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:32,579
with with your parts.
883
00:47:32,579 --> 00:47:32,739
So
884
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:33,300
Yeah.
885
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:33,460
Right.
886
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:33,940
Like self energy.
887
00:47:34,019 --> 00:47:35,125
Think it's so powerful.
888
00:47:35,125 --> 00:47:35,445
Yeah.
889
00:47:35,445 --> 00:47:35,684
Yeah.
890
00:47:35,684 --> 00:47:35,925
Yeah.
891
00:47:35,925 --> 00:47:37,445
We need more self energy in the world.
892
00:47:37,445 --> 00:47:38,244
That's interesting.
893
00:47:38,244 --> 00:47:41,684
Let's talk real quick about we've mentioned
this a couple times, but I wanna go all the way
894
00:47:41,684 --> 00:47:41,925
in.
895
00:47:41,925 --> 00:47:43,285
The autism versus Tylenol.
896
00:47:43,285 --> 00:47:47,684
Like, before we have to, like, land the plane
here, you talked about how there's it's fifty
897
00:47:47,684 --> 00:47:48,005
fifty.
898
00:47:48,005 --> 00:47:51,010
It either is a thing or not a thing, but, like,
we know that's not how science works.
899
00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:56,130
It's, like, supported, not supported, all this
kind of how did they get to the perspective
900
00:47:56,130 --> 00:47:58,849
that Tylenol is a cause of autism?
901
00:47:58,849 --> 00:48:02,210
And then just elucidate some of the data and
what you know.
902
00:48:02,210 --> 00:48:02,449
Yeah.
903
00:48:02,449 --> 00:48:02,690
Please.
904
00:48:03,105 --> 00:48:06,465
I I can't answer the first one because I have
absolutely no idea how they got there.
905
00:48:06,545 --> 00:48:07,344
I genuinely don't.
906
00:48:07,344 --> 00:48:09,824
And I don't even know if that's public
knowledge at this point, whether they've
907
00:48:09,824 --> 00:48:15,344
released anything, but here's the thing, and
just before I go any further, I do just for the
908
00:48:15,344 --> 00:48:19,420
listener and for both of you, want to make it
clear, like, what I'm about to say is not a
909
00:48:19,420 --> 00:48:20,539
political stance, right?
910
00:48:20,539 --> 00:48:25,420
Like I am genuinely, I try to be as apolitical
as possible and just listen to the data, and so
911
00:48:25,420 --> 00:48:28,860
basically I'm about to tell you that there's no
link between Tylenol and autism, and that's not
912
00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:34,275
me saying that's not driven by my distaste for
Donald Trump or his administration, and I think
913
00:48:34,275 --> 00:48:38,675
it's important to recognize that when you hear
someone say something like what I'm about to
914
00:48:38,675 --> 00:48:43,155
say, it's natural to think they're only saying
that because they don't like Trump, but please
915
00:48:43,155 --> 00:48:46,170
just take that out of this and just hear what
I'm gonna say.
916
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:50,329
There may be a study that was run by the
administration where they found a correlation
917
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:53,289
between Tylenol and autism prevalence.
918
00:48:53,289 --> 00:48:54,250
There may be, I don't know.
919
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:59,474
There is already data from two point five
million children showing that when you properly
920
00:48:59,474 --> 00:49:05,394
control for like genetics and like sibling
pairs, that the use of Tylenol during pregnancy
921
00:49:05,394 --> 00:49:07,155
is not associated with autism.
922
00:49:07,234 --> 00:49:13,150
So there's also the point that even if there
there is evidence, they come out they say, Hey
923
00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:16,269
look, we have a new study, you know, greater
Tylenol use is associated with higher risk of
924
00:49:16,269 --> 00:49:16,670
autism.
925
00:49:16,670 --> 00:49:22,670
Okay, well, maternal immune activation, being
sick while pregnant, is a well known documented
926
00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:23,869
risk factor for autism.
927
00:49:23,869 --> 00:49:29,934
So if there's a higher if there's a correlation
between acetaminophen use and autism, the real
928
00:49:29,934 --> 00:49:34,174
correlation might be between the mom was sick
and and them may have been higher risk of
929
00:49:34,174 --> 00:49:37,539
autism, and they happen to also be taking
acetaminophen, so there's a just that happens
930
00:49:37,539 --> 00:49:39,699
to be correlation when it's not truly
causative.
931
00:49:40,339 --> 00:49:48,260
As a mouse researcher, we want to identify how
to induce autism in mice, like, and as
932
00:49:48,260 --> 00:49:51,139
ridiculous as that sounds, if you think about
it actually makes sense, because if we want to
933
00:49:51,139 --> 00:49:55,155
study this condition in mice, which allows us
to ask different questions that we can't study
934
00:49:55,155 --> 00:50:01,635
in humans, it is to our benefit if we can find
new causes of autism by inducing them in mice.
935
00:50:01,635 --> 00:50:06,434
And there are certain drugs that exposure in
the utero in utero can increase the risk of
936
00:50:06,434 --> 00:50:09,949
autism, like an antiepileptic drug called
valproic acid.
937
00:50:09,949 --> 00:50:16,750
That's one mouse model of autism, so the pups,
the babies, are exposed to VPA, valproic acid,
938
00:50:16,750 --> 00:50:21,925
and they show a disproportionately high level
of social dysfunction when they are grown up
939
00:50:21,925 --> 00:50:26,085
and into like adolescence, there's no Tylenol
model of autism.
940
00:50:26,085 --> 00:50:30,644
No, I don't know if any scientist has ever
tested this, but I would imagine that at some
941
00:50:30,644 --> 00:50:35,589
point somewhere of the thousands of scientists
who have ever tried this, they would have tried
942
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:36,150
that, right?
943
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:37,829
Like, again, science is a business.
944
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:41,670
If you can identify things, it supports your
career, and the fact that I, as a person who
945
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:47,964
did my entire PhD research in the biological
and genetic basis of autism, have never heard
946
00:50:47,964 --> 00:50:54,204
about an association between Tylenol and autism
tells me that it's probably not happening.
947
00:50:54,204 --> 00:50:57,885
Plus the fact that there's already data on two
point five million children showing that it's
948
00:50:57,885 --> 00:50:59,085
not a risk factor.
949
00:50:59,085 --> 00:51:03,349
I don't believe it, you know, and I and I'm
really curious about what the world thinks
950
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:03,750
about this.
951
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:07,510
I actually so I coach high school lacrosse, and
we had a practice yesterday, and I heard two of
952
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:10,630
the kids talking, they were like tenth graders,
and the guy was like, You hear about Tylenol
953
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:11,670
causes autism?
954
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:13,269
And I went over, I'm like, do guys think about
that?
955
00:51:13,514 --> 00:51:16,474
And then one guy was like, Dude, that's the
stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
956
00:51:16,474 --> 00:51:20,315
And I was like, Okay, so you're a tenth grader
with obviously no medical training and you
957
00:51:20,315 --> 00:51:24,234
think it's stupid, and I keep hearing this
echoed, but it's at least reassuring that, you
958
00:51:24,234 --> 00:51:27,994
know, just because this is what I this is what
I mean, we were talking about before the
959
00:51:27,994 --> 00:51:33,059
episode started, that I worry that we are
allowing our political and not even political,
960
00:51:33,059 --> 00:51:38,179
just our in group affiliation to dominate over
our evidence guided beliefs, right?
961
00:51:38,179 --> 00:51:42,500
And so it's just concerning to me that, you
know, and it could be Joe Biden, it could be
962
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:46,394
Donald Trump, it doesn't matter, but if Donald
Trump says, Hey, Tylenol causes autism, and
963
00:51:46,394 --> 00:51:49,994
then I, someone listens to this podcast and
hears me say, Oh, there's actually no link, but
964
00:51:49,994 --> 00:51:52,875
they like Donald Trump and they trust Donald
Trump, they're probably more likely to listen
965
00:51:52,875 --> 00:51:55,035
to that and believe that Tylenol does cause
autism.
966
00:51:55,035 --> 00:51:58,875
Whereas if in the last administration if Joe
Biden had come out and said, Tylenol causes
967
00:51:58,875 --> 00:52:04,449
autism, I think a lot of more Democratic voters
would have said, Hey, I haven't seen the data,
968
00:52:04,449 --> 00:52:07,570
but there's got to be something there, right,
like they would be the same people who are
969
00:52:07,570 --> 00:52:11,409
arguing against it now would be considering it,
because we naturally tend to trust the people
970
00:52:11,409 --> 00:52:15,684
in our in group, and that's what I find
worrying about America is that, you know, we
971
00:52:15,684 --> 00:52:22,405
are we are letting our affiliations lead and
our beliefs lead over our our trust meters,
972
00:52:22,405 --> 00:52:26,324
right, like we are no longer looking for I'm
sorry not our trust meters, our truth meters,
973
00:52:26,324 --> 00:52:30,130
we are we are no longer looking for evidence,
we are simply looking for who said that.
974
00:52:30,130 --> 00:52:32,690
If I don't agree with them in general, then I
don't think it's true.
975
00:52:32,690 --> 00:52:37,489
And that's really also damaging, not just for,
like, the entire culture of The United States,
976
00:52:37,489 --> 00:52:41,489
but also for our, like, need for connection and
humanity and community.
977
00:52:41,489 --> 00:52:47,394
If you look at this from a meta perspective,
how do you deal with this concept for yourself?
978
00:52:47,474 --> 00:52:52,515
What specific things does doctor Ben do to
challenge his in group bias?
979
00:52:52,515 --> 00:53:00,280
So I try not to search for new information
through sources that may be biased.
980
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:05,239
Like the scientific literature, I know there's
a lot of people who like argue, oh like science
981
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,574
is biased, it's funded by big pharma, I do not
believe that as a, you know, work person who
982
00:53:09,574 --> 00:53:12,694
has published papers the last decade, I've
never met a researcher who has ever had their
983
00:53:12,694 --> 00:53:14,134
research funded by big pharma.
984
00:53:14,134 --> 00:53:17,974
I trust the scientific literature as unbiased,
it is just data.
985
00:53:17,974 --> 00:53:23,119
And so when I do hear someone sharing a
perspective, even if it's a person who I'm
986
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:28,000
inclined to listen to and believe because I
share a lot in common with them, I'm still
987
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:29,760
cautious about taking in information.
988
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,519
I'm not just going to automatically assume that
something is true, and I'll admit like I am
989
00:53:33,519 --> 00:53:34,400
totally not perfect.
990
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,804
I have been burned by that in the past by just
blindly accepting some information is true, but
991
00:53:38,804 --> 00:53:43,605
I'm always trying to interrogate information
and challenge my own biases, and in addition to
992
00:53:43,605 --> 00:53:49,925
that I'm also trying to offer as much grace to
people who my brain naturally wants to exclude,
993
00:53:50,489 --> 00:53:55,769
you know, like just recognizing the fact that
my brain may show less activity in these
994
00:53:55,769 --> 00:54:00,010
empathy related brain areas to a person
standing next to me on the sidewalk if I notice
995
00:54:00,010 --> 00:54:03,849
that they are wearing a chain of a religious
emblem that I don't identify with.
996
00:54:03,849 --> 00:54:09,775
Like just being aware of that allows me to like
step back from my natural dispositions and my
997
00:54:09,775 --> 00:54:13,614
instincts and realize, okay, if I wasn't aware
of that I would probably act differently
998
00:54:13,614 --> 00:54:16,815
towards this person, but I don't have to act
differently towards this person, right?
999
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:22,019
And, you know, there's so many tiny little
decisions in life that we may not even be aware
1000
00:54:22,019 --> 00:54:26,179
of, where in that moment the bus pulls up and
normally I would let the person go ahead of me,
1001
00:54:26,179 --> 00:54:29,859
but I instead I think, you know, screw that
person, don't identify with them, I'm gonna go
1002
00:54:29,859 --> 00:54:31,219
in front of them and be rude, right?
1003
00:54:31,219 --> 00:54:34,945
Like tiny little things like that that we don't
even realize are happening, but you can just as
1004
00:54:34,945 --> 00:54:37,025
easily override those impulses, right?
1005
00:54:37,025 --> 00:54:39,184
Like we are we are tribalistic animals.
1006
00:54:39,184 --> 00:54:44,619
We come from a world, an ancient world, where
it was in our best interest to protect and
1007
00:54:44,619 --> 00:54:49,260
identify with the people in our tribe, and to
sort of disengage from people in other tribes.
1008
00:54:49,260 --> 00:54:50,539
If they die, I don't care.
1009
00:54:50,539 --> 00:54:53,900
It's actually good for me if they die, but if
people in my tribe die, that's really bad for
1010
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:56,940
my survival because now I've just lost one ally
and my survival is now at risk.
1011
00:54:57,335 --> 00:55:02,375
So we are humans have been selected through
evolution to care more about people who are
1012
00:55:02,375 --> 00:55:06,694
identifying in our group, and so just simply
being aware of that I think is helpful, but you
1013
00:55:06,694 --> 00:55:07,494
can override it.
1014
00:55:07,494 --> 00:55:12,054
You can, I'm going to choose to care about this
person, I'm going to choose to empathize with
1015
00:55:12,054 --> 00:55:12,454
this person.
1016
00:55:12,860 --> 00:55:18,539
I mean, it'sit'swe have this ability called
cognitive empathy, which is the ability to put
1017
00:55:18,539 --> 00:55:21,980
yourself into the mind space of someone and
understand what they're going through.
1018
00:55:22,059 --> 00:55:26,724
There's also emotional empathy, which is when
you share their emotions, and cognitive empathy
1019
00:55:26,724 --> 00:55:29,445
can sort of be used as a bridge to emotional
empathy.
1020
00:55:29,445 --> 00:55:33,364
So if you see someone suffering because they're
very different from you and you feel nothing,
1021
00:55:33,364 --> 00:55:36,724
it's totally you're totally capable of looking
at them and saying, okay, what is this what is
1022
00:55:36,724 --> 00:55:37,605
what are they experiencing?
1023
00:55:37,605 --> 00:55:38,644
What would I experience in that?
1024
00:55:38,644 --> 00:55:40,210
Like what's what's their mind state?
1025
00:55:40,210 --> 00:55:41,170
What are they probably thinking?
1026
00:55:41,170 --> 00:55:42,289
What are they probably feeling?
1027
00:55:42,369 --> 00:55:44,369
Okay, now how would I feel if I were in their
shoes?
1028
00:55:44,369 --> 00:55:49,250
How would I feel if it wasn't this person I was
watching but if it was my spouse or my child
1029
00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:50,769
going through what they're going through?
1030
00:55:50,769 --> 00:55:52,690
Can I start to embody their emotions a bit
more?
1031
00:55:52,844 --> 00:55:55,804
And I think at any time we have this human like
override.
1032
00:55:55,804 --> 00:56:01,644
We are super complicated, sophisticated brains,
and so you know we are capable of so much more
1033
00:56:01,644 --> 00:56:06,844
than we often allow ourselves to achieve
because we just fall prey to these like ancient
1034
00:56:06,269 --> 00:56:08,670
instincts without really even noticing that
they're there.
1035
00:56:08,670 --> 00:56:12,909
And so that's also something that I wanted to,
you know, clarify in the book and and whenever
1036
00:56:12,909 --> 00:56:16,590
I have the opportunity to, so thanks for giving
me the opportunity on this podcast.
1037
00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:16,989
Yeah.
1038
00:56:16,989 --> 00:56:18,670
The you mentioned IFS.
1039
00:56:18,670 --> 00:56:21,309
Just one last question that you've been a
participant of that.
1040
00:56:21,605 --> 00:56:26,484
Something that I see in people my my clients
that I work with inside of their relationships
1041
00:56:26,484 --> 00:56:29,125
is that parts language helps them with this a
lot.
1042
00:56:29,125 --> 00:56:31,844
And so instead of I work in the relationship
dating space a lot.
1043
00:56:31,844 --> 00:56:36,404
And so it's like, my partner is this or is mad
at me or, like, yelled at me.
1044
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:42,559
Shifting to a part of them or a part of this
other person is behaving this way, but not it's
1045
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:44,000
not who they are as a human.
1046
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:49,440
And the connection between us is we we share
humanity, but a part of them is acting
1047
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:49,760
differently.
1048
00:56:50,045 --> 00:56:54,684
Has that helped you at all, or have you is that
do do you think about that when you're trying
1049
00:56:54,684 --> 00:56:55,644
to be more empathetic?
1050
00:56:55,644 --> 00:56:55,965
Yeah.
1051
00:56:55,965 --> 00:56:56,445
Totally.
1052
00:56:56,445 --> 00:57:02,285
I mean, think what we've gotten really good at
lately, which is a bad thing, is if we see
1053
00:57:02,285 --> 00:57:07,440
someone do something or say something that we
disagree with, we completely write them off.
1054
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,280
And that happens a lot on social media, right?
1055
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,320
Where it's like you follow someone for a year
and then you see them tweet something and
1056
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:13,920
you're like, oh my god, I completely disagree.
1057
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:14,719
Unfollowed, right?
1058
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,144
Or you might even comment and be like, screw
you know, I thought you were a nice person but
1059
00:57:18,144 --> 00:57:19,425
I don't trust you anymore, right?
1060
00:57:19,425 --> 00:57:25,425
We do this where we where we generalize a
belief or something we observe to represent the
1061
00:57:25,425 --> 00:57:27,824
entirety of that person, and that's totally not
true, you know?
1062
00:57:27,824 --> 00:57:31,289
And if you were to sit down and have a long
conversation with that person, there's probably
1063
00:57:31,289 --> 00:57:35,130
a lot you would have in common, and then that
one idea you would not have in common, and
1064
00:57:35,130 --> 00:57:36,890
that's entirely okay, right?
1065
00:57:36,890 --> 00:57:43,369
I think we've we've gotten so, like, polarized
that we just exclude ideas that we don't agree
1066
00:57:43,369 --> 00:57:46,755
with, and that's not a good thing, you know,
because if you think about it, I guarantee that
1067
00:57:46,755 --> 00:57:50,674
some of the people who are closest to you in
your life don't agree with you on everything,
1068
00:57:50,674 --> 00:57:50,994
right?
1069
00:57:50,994 --> 00:57:54,594
I'm sure you might disagree with your parents
or your siblings or your spouse or some of your
1070
00:57:54,594 --> 00:57:56,275
closest friends on certain things.
1071
00:57:56,275 --> 00:58:00,674
I know that me and some of my best friends in
this world totally disagree politically.
1072
00:58:00,969 --> 00:58:01,690
That's fine.
1073
00:58:01,690 --> 00:58:02,650
I don't care, right?
1074
00:58:02,650 --> 00:58:07,369
And I think that actually my brain is probably
better for it, for having allowed them into my
1075
00:58:07,369 --> 00:58:13,050
life, because it's showing me, it's showing my
brain that there's less of a threat out there,
1076
00:58:13,050 --> 00:58:13,369
right?
1077
00:58:13,369 --> 00:58:16,090
People can disagree with you and still be
allies.
1078
00:58:16,355 --> 00:58:21,394
And I think when we when we exclude that from
our lives and we say anybody who disagrees in
1079
00:58:21,394 --> 00:58:25,954
any capacity is an enemy, suddenly we have a
lot of enemies, and that's not what the brain
1080
00:58:25,954 --> 00:58:26,275
wants.
1081
00:58:26,275 --> 00:58:30,914
The brain wants to be safe and surrounded by
community, and and, you know, lo and behold,
1082
00:58:31,074 --> 00:58:35,440
increased being more isolated is associated
with higher rates of suicide and depression and
1083
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:36,079
anxiety.
1084
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:40,159
Perhaps it's because our ancient instincts are
to be supported by our communities, and when we
1085
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:42,079
don't have them, we start to get concerned.
1086
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:45,039
And you know, I just I try to do the opposite
of that, you know.
1087
00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:45,519
I love that.
1088
00:58:45,644 --> 00:58:47,804
I think it's different too when you walk
outside too.
1089
00:58:47,804 --> 00:58:53,244
You walk like, I walk into a coffee shop and
most people say hi, most people are kind, most
1090
00:58:53,244 --> 00:58:57,244
people are not like, oh, you freaking white
dude, I hate you type of thing.
1091
00:58:57,244 --> 00:59:03,619
You know, like, that's the other thing that the
social media online stuff messes with people's
1092
00:59:03,619 --> 00:59:05,300
brains, I feel like Yeah.
1093
00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:06,099
In a way.
1094
00:59:06,420 --> 00:59:09,300
Social media makes it feel like you're gonna
walk into the coffee shop, and everyone's gonna
1095
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:11,139
be arguing about Charlie Kirk shooting.
1096
00:59:11,139 --> 00:59:11,380
Right?
1097
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:13,059
Like, that's not how real life is.
1098
00:59:13,059 --> 00:59:13,219
Right?
1099
00:59:13,505 --> 00:59:18,224
And it's probably because we are disengaging
our empathy, and so we don't give a shit about
1100
00:59:18,224 --> 00:59:19,184
what the other person's feeling.
1101
00:59:19,184 --> 00:59:23,105
And we say things that we would never say in
real life because we're completely disengaged
1102
00:59:23,105 --> 00:59:23,824
emotionally.
1103
00:59:23,824 --> 00:59:25,265
But the world's actually pretty nice.
1104
00:59:25,265 --> 00:59:25,505
You know?
1105
00:59:25,505 --> 00:59:28,864
When you go out there, people are actually
pretty kind, and and the interactions you have
1106
00:59:29,090 --> 00:59:33,409
can be very satisfying, and I bet when you do
go into the coffee shop and you pass someone or
1107
00:59:33,409 --> 00:59:36,769
you're walking by them on the sidewalk and you
say, hey good morning, and they say good
1108
00:59:36,769 --> 00:59:39,090
morning, you probably feel really good.
1109
00:59:39,090 --> 00:59:43,855
You probably feel very safe and very reassured,
and I think that's kind of what we're missing
1110
00:59:43,855 --> 00:59:48,335
out on a lot, because we're receding away from
a world that we fear doesn't support us
1111
00:59:48,335 --> 00:59:48,974
anymore.
1112
00:59:49,054 --> 00:59:53,855
And by simply making a small effort to
reconnect with your community, think you could
1113
00:59:53,855 --> 00:59:59,099
notice dramatic effects in your well-being, if
only for the fact that it's proven that social
1114
00:59:59,099 --> 01:00:00,460
interactions make us feel better.
1115
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,739
Dude, couldn't agree more.
1116
01:00:01,739 --> 01:00:04,940
I'm the worst person to be in an elevator with
because I'm the dude that's like, how's your
1117
01:00:04,940 --> 01:00:05,339
day?
1118
01:00:05,339 --> 01:00:05,980
It was alright.
1119
01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:06,859
Oh, just alright?
1120
01:00:06,859 --> 01:00:12,380
And and I'm getting three or four questions
deep in 11 floors from Ground Floor.
1121
01:00:12,380 --> 01:00:13,579
You're like, let's do some IFS.
1122
01:00:14,005 --> 01:00:18,405
Dude, I I mean, I wanna talk about it because
and you can help me understand this.
1123
01:00:18,405 --> 01:00:23,284
Is it not give them like, when you ask a
question like that, does it not give them a
1124
01:00:23,284 --> 01:00:26,324
boost in that beautiful chemical cocktail Yeah.
1125
01:00:26,405 --> 01:00:28,804
For the rest of the day when you do that for
someone else?
1126
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,359
I mean, I don't know about the rest of the day,
but like there's a bunch of studies showing
1127
01:00:32,359 --> 01:00:35,559
that people feel better right after they
interact.
1128
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:40,679
And it doesn't matter if you, you know, you
could be tracking someone's behavior for a
1129
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:44,954
couple days and you notice that after they have
organic interactions, like a, you know, they
1130
01:00:44,954 --> 01:00:48,155
happen to be riding in the elevator with
someone, they will say, Oh, I feel a lot better
1131
01:00:48,155 --> 01:00:49,195
right now, for some reason.
1132
01:00:49,275 --> 01:00:52,954
Or if you tell them, Hey, go interact with that
person over there on the train, they will feel
1133
01:00:52,954 --> 01:00:53,835
better afterwards.
1134
01:00:53,835 --> 01:00:58,880
And so not only to your point, not only does
the person who started the conversation feel
1135
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,199
better, but the person who was the recipient.
1136
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:05,039
So like there's literally studies, this is
Professor Nicholas Epley who I just love his
1137
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:10,320
research because he has people do this in real
life settings like trains and buses and taxis,
1138
01:01:10,614 --> 01:01:15,335
and he'll have them start a conversation with a
stranger and, by the way, they almost always
1139
01:01:15,335 --> 01:01:17,255
underestimate the impact of it.
1140
01:01:17,255 --> 01:01:20,135
They say this is really probably not gonna
really do anything, I'm not gonna feel much
1141
01:01:20,135 --> 01:01:23,974
better after, they feel great afterwards, and
then when the researchers go up to the stranger
1142
01:01:23,974 --> 01:01:26,559
and say hey how was that, they're like That was
actually really nice.
1143
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:29,599
I really enjoyed the experience of this, my
commute to work.
1144
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:31,760
Way better having this conversation with a
stranger.
1145
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,599
So yeah, you're not just benefiting yourself,
you're also like spreading the wealth to
1146
01:01:35,599 --> 01:01:37,039
whoever you choose to engage.
1147
01:01:37,039 --> 01:01:38,159
Yeah, it's beautiful.
1148
01:01:38,324 --> 01:01:41,125
I've got a bro science version of this as well
because Doctor.
1149
01:01:41,125 --> 01:01:45,925
Zach, we've talked about him a couple times, he
has a consumer app called SIX that uses
1150
01:01:45,925 --> 01:01:47,125
biometric devices.
1151
01:01:47,445 --> 01:01:52,565
He's done 21,000 blood draws to measure blood
oxytocin after social interaction and stuff.
1152
01:01:52,869 --> 01:01:58,150
And the app tracks your key moment using
biometric key moments using biometric, like,
1153
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:58,630
data.
1154
01:01:58,630 --> 01:02:03,589
And something I noticed was when I went from
normal weightlifting to now doing CrossFit in a
1155
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:09,144
social setting, I get so many key moments when
I'm in the when I'm at CrossFit because it
1156
01:02:09,144 --> 01:02:11,945
tracks my time or it tracks the time you get in
and what you're doing.
1157
01:02:12,025 --> 01:02:13,224
And it's just like, woah.
1158
01:02:13,224 --> 01:02:18,425
Social interaction is so important for, like,
oxytocin and all this really cool stuff that,
1159
01:02:18,425 --> 01:02:20,579
like, is being released real time.
1160
01:02:20,660 --> 01:02:22,260
So kind of pro science.
1161
01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:27,300
The six app blows my mind too because I think
they identified some some heart marker.
1162
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:32,500
It was like it's a cardiac marker and some
change in pulse rate or whatever it is that is
1163
01:02:32,694 --> 01:02:37,094
a secondary indicator of of oxytocin, and
that's how it's able it can be done through,
1164
01:02:37,094 --> 01:02:40,135
like, a a chest strap, right, or a wristband or
1165
01:02:40,375 --> 01:02:40,614
Yeah.
1166
01:02:40,614 --> 01:02:40,934
Whoop.
1167
01:02:40,934 --> 01:02:41,255
Anything.
1168
01:02:41,255 --> 01:02:43,174
Garmin, Whoop, Apple Watch, Fitbit, any of
them.
1169
01:02:43,174 --> 01:02:46,135
Like, Chloe and I did content for them for for
years.
1170
01:02:46,135 --> 01:02:47,174
Like, I love them.
1171
01:02:47,429 --> 01:02:47,589
Like
1172
01:02:47,750 --> 01:02:47,989
Yeah.
1173
01:02:47,989 --> 01:02:48,949
That's awesome.
1174
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:49,429
Yeah.
1175
01:02:49,429 --> 01:02:49,829
They're great.
1176
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:50,309
I love that.
1177
01:02:50,309 --> 01:02:51,349
So I digress.
1178
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:51,589
Alright.
1179
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:52,789
Let's bring this thing in for a landing.
1180
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:56,230
Last question we ask everybody is what's a
question that you wish you got asked more
1181
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:56,550
often?
1182
01:02:56,550 --> 01:02:58,789
I mean, this is kinda sad, but you already hit
it.
1183
01:02:58,789 --> 01:03:01,135
I think that question of how are you doing in
the beginning, right?
1184
01:03:01,135 --> 01:03:02,894
Like what a nice question.
1185
01:03:02,894 --> 01:03:07,214
And yeah, I'm not getting asked that much these
days, but I appreciate it.
1186
01:03:07,214 --> 01:03:11,135
I mean, I think gosh, there's so many ways I
could answer this question in reality, and I
1187
01:03:11,135 --> 01:03:12,494
really don't know which to choose.
1188
01:03:12,494 --> 01:03:14,574
I mean, I think I'll settle on my first answer.
1189
01:03:14,574 --> 01:03:18,859
I appreciate that you guys genuinely asked me
how I'm doing, and I think that that in itself
1190
01:03:18,859 --> 01:03:23,900
is a great model of like human interaction,
right?
1191
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:27,260
I think we do so much of this, you know, I
don't know, how's your day?
1192
01:03:27,420 --> 01:03:28,859
Whatever small talk stuff, right?
1193
01:03:28,859 --> 01:03:31,775
But asking someone like in a genuine way, How
are you?
1194
01:03:31,775 --> 01:03:32,735
How have you been?
1195
01:03:32,815 --> 01:03:33,695
What's going on?
1196
01:03:33,695 --> 01:03:34,494
What's on your mind?
1197
01:03:34,494 --> 01:03:42,735
Immediately leaps straight past all the small
talk into depth and yeah, and I was immediately
1198
01:03:42,735 --> 01:03:46,450
comfortable giving you a genuine answer, so you
know, I I appreciate that.
1199
01:03:46,450 --> 01:03:50,690
And amid all the podcasts I do, this is the
only time I've ever been asked that on a
1200
01:03:50,690 --> 01:03:51,250
podcast.
1201
01:03:51,250 --> 01:03:54,930
So even beforehand, like, before the recording
starts, like, one's ever asking that.
1202
01:03:54,930 --> 01:03:55,250
Right?
1203
01:03:55,250 --> 01:03:56,210
So thank you.
1204
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:57,329
I genuinely appreciate it.
1205
01:03:57,329 --> 01:03:57,970
Anytime.
1206
01:03:58,050 --> 01:04:04,055
It's interesting, and maybe you can comment on
this, that we hear this response on the podcast
1207
01:04:04,695 --> 01:04:07,094
99% of the time from men.
1208
01:04:07,094 --> 01:04:07,414
Mhmm.
1209
01:04:07,414 --> 01:04:10,614
Women have all different things and stuff like
that.
1210
01:04:10,614 --> 01:04:12,375
It and this totally anecdotal.
1211
01:04:12,375 --> 01:04:14,215
We've only had you know, it said, like, I get
it.
1212
01:04:14,215 --> 01:04:15,974
I get this a small sample of all the stuff.
1213
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:17,789
However, it's it's interesting.
1214
01:04:17,789 --> 01:04:19,309
Guys, say this.
1215
01:04:19,309 --> 01:04:23,630
I want people to ask me how I'm doing, actually
care, and actually go, like, more in-depth.
1216
01:04:23,710 --> 01:04:27,789
Like, I wonder if we asked your wife, for
example, if people were asking her how she's
1217
01:04:27,789 --> 01:04:29,950
doing and if she would she say the same thing?
1218
01:04:30,030 --> 01:04:30,430
You know?
1219
01:04:30,430 --> 01:04:34,454
Like, you have any thoughts on that, or is
there any research or anything around that that
1220
01:04:34,454 --> 01:04:35,014
you know about?
1221
01:04:35,014 --> 01:04:35,815
No, I don't know.
1222
01:04:35,815 --> 01:04:38,215
I mean, it's an interesting anecdote.
1223
01:04:38,695 --> 01:04:42,215
I am a guy, I can understand and relate to what
you're saying for sure.
1224
01:04:42,295 --> 01:04:42,855
We do.
1225
01:04:43,269 --> 01:04:47,910
You know, think in my particular case there's
also the added context that my wife is eight
1226
01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:51,110
and a half months pregnant, and so whenever
people see me they're like, How's Bella?
1227
01:04:51,110 --> 01:04:51,430
Right?
1228
01:04:51,430 --> 01:04:57,110
And to be obviously to be sure, she has the
hard part of the pregnancy, right?
1229
01:04:57,110 --> 01:05:01,295
Like she is going through what I am not going
through, but yeah I mean you know I think it's
1230
01:05:01,295 --> 01:05:05,855
just funny, it's such a unique circumstance as
we talked about at the beginning that this huge
1231
01:05:05,855 --> 01:05:11,054
personal family moment is happening at the
exact same time as arguably the most busy and
1232
01:05:11,054 --> 01:05:15,570
intense sector section of my career, and you
know this book launch is like such a
1233
01:05:15,570 --> 01:05:20,050
significant milestone and something that like
it's important that it goes well for me and you
1234
01:05:20,050 --> 01:05:23,650
know just for the sake of my career and my life
and and also my family, right?
1235
01:05:23,650 --> 01:05:28,184
There's there's a lot hanging on it, and so
yeah, like I am I I don't know.
1236
01:05:28,184 --> 01:05:31,384
I'm facing unique challenges of the the synergy
of these things.
1237
01:05:31,384 --> 01:05:32,025
I don't know.
1238
01:05:32,025 --> 01:05:36,424
It's interesting to hear that other men have
said the same thing because, I don't know, I'm
1239
01:05:36,424 --> 01:05:40,750
cautious about making hypotheses here, but it's
definitely thought provoking.
1240
01:05:40,750 --> 01:05:41,230
It is.
1241
01:05:41,230 --> 01:05:42,109
It is indeed.
1242
01:05:42,190 --> 01:05:42,510
Alright.
1243
01:05:42,670 --> 01:05:45,150
Let the people know a little bit about, where
they can find you.
1244
01:05:45,150 --> 01:05:47,069
I think most people know where they can find
you.
1245
01:05:47,069 --> 01:05:50,029
But, and then talk a a little bit about the
book, how people can get it.
1246
01:05:50,029 --> 01:05:50,909
Like, I'm excited to read it.
1247
01:05:50,909 --> 01:05:51,630
I can't wait to get it.
1248
01:05:51,630 --> 01:05:53,515
But talk a little bit about that.
1249
01:05:53,515 --> 01:05:53,914
Yeah.
1250
01:05:53,914 --> 01:05:54,155
Yeah.
1251
01:05:54,155 --> 01:05:59,034
Well, so my name is you can find me through my
name, Ben Rhine, r e I n.
1252
01:05:59,034 --> 01:06:00,795
On social media, I'm doctor Ben Rhine.
1253
01:06:00,795 --> 01:06:02,394
My website is benrhine.com.
1254
01:06:02,394 --> 01:06:06,474
If you have any if you wanna read my scientific
papers, if you wanna contact me, that's a good
1255
01:06:06,474 --> 01:06:07,859
place to go straight to the website.
1256
01:06:07,859 --> 01:06:12,179
But I do also post short form videos on on
social media about neuroscience and so that's
1257
01:06:12,179 --> 01:06:14,339
on like Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and
all that.
1258
01:06:14,420 --> 01:06:18,739
The book is called Why Brains Need Friends and
it comes out October 14 and it can be found
1259
01:06:18,739 --> 01:06:19,619
basically anywhere.
1260
01:06:19,619 --> 01:06:23,924
If it if it if right now I know don't when this
episode's coming out, but if right now is
1261
01:06:23,924 --> 01:06:28,324
before October 14, is available for pre order,
which means it'll just show up at your door on
1262
01:06:28,324 --> 01:06:32,885
October 14, but yeah, I mean, you know, the
book is the whole purpose of the book is to
1263
01:06:32,885 --> 01:06:35,525
answer the title question, Why do brains need
friends?
1264
01:06:35,525 --> 01:06:37,530
You know, what does socializing do for us?
1265
01:06:37,530 --> 01:06:40,970
What does isolation, how does it act against us
biologically?
1266
01:06:40,970 --> 01:06:44,970
Like what's actually happening when you connect
with someone and when you fail to prioritize
1267
01:06:44,970 --> 01:06:45,610
connection?
1268
01:06:45,769 --> 01:06:49,130
I address some of these like core brain flaws.
1269
01:06:49,244 --> 01:06:53,405
We have a lot of flaws built into our brains in
terms of how we connect and that hold us back
1270
01:06:53,405 --> 01:06:57,325
from connection, so some of the things that we
talked about here of like just recognizing that
1271
01:06:57,325 --> 01:06:58,765
these things exist can help you.
1272
01:06:58,845 --> 01:07:02,605
And then that's all like kind of part one of
the book, and then part two is like taking this
1273
01:07:02,605 --> 01:07:05,030
fundamental knowledge and applying it in the
modern world.
1274
01:07:05,030 --> 01:07:08,869
So there's a chapter on like virtual versus in
person interactions, there's a chapter on
1275
01:07:08,869 --> 01:07:13,670
likability, there's a chapter on how various
drugs that we take regularly influence the
1276
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:19,109
social brain in our interactions, there's a
chapter on dogs and how they what they do for
1277
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:24,125
the brain, so and how they can be valuable
members of your life in terms of like feeding
1278
01:07:24,125 --> 01:07:25,885
your brain social nourishment.
1279
01:07:25,965 --> 01:07:30,125
So there's a lot to it, and it's it's basically
like, again, me taking everything I ever
1280
01:07:30,125 --> 01:07:33,340
learned in my academic career as a
neuroscientist that I thought the average
1281
01:07:33,340 --> 01:07:37,420
person would be better off knowing and smashing
it all together into one book.
1282
01:07:37,500 --> 01:07:40,619
And so I'm, you know, I mean I'm in this weird
stage right now where the book's not out and I
1283
01:07:40,619 --> 01:07:44,059
don't know what people think about it, but the
few people who have read it have said really,
1284
01:07:44,059 --> 01:07:48,885
really nice things, so I'm just really excited
to, like, get past this this purgatory I'm in
1285
01:07:48,885 --> 01:07:52,405
of waiting for it to happen and waiting for it
to come out and just share it with the world.
1286
01:07:52,405 --> 01:07:57,445
And I really genuinely, more than anything, I
hope that it inspires people to reconnect with
1287
01:07:57,445 --> 01:08:02,750
others and that it might heal just a little bit
of this divide that we're facing because that
1288
01:08:02,750 --> 01:08:07,789
truly is my my deeper motivation is I'm I'm
worried about especially America.
1289
01:08:07,789 --> 01:08:11,949
So maybe it'll do a little bit to inject some
glue back into our society.
1290
01:08:11,949 --> 01:08:13,150
Gonna be at a better time.
1291
01:08:13,150 --> 01:08:15,789
I'm excite I'm pretty sure I I got signed up to
get an early copy too.
1292
01:08:15,789 --> 01:08:16,109
So, like
1293
01:08:16,189 --> 01:08:16,430
You will?
1294
01:08:16,965 --> 01:08:17,604
Very I
1295
01:08:17,925 --> 01:08:19,604
cannot wait to read it.
1296
01:08:19,604 --> 01:08:20,324
I love reading.
1297
01:08:20,324 --> 01:08:23,204
I'm a voracious reader, so I'm really pumped
for that.
1298
01:08:23,204 --> 01:08:23,524
Cool.
1299
01:08:23,524 --> 01:08:25,045
Well, thank you so much for hopping on with us.
1300
01:08:25,045 --> 01:08:27,604
Any last thoughts or anything else you wanna
leave us with or No.
1301
01:08:28,164 --> 01:08:29,284
I I don't think so.
1302
01:08:29,284 --> 01:08:35,310
I mean, I just appreciate this conversation and
and the ability to express freely and, you
1303
01:08:35,310 --> 01:08:36,510
know, it's the Internet.
1304
01:08:36,590 --> 01:08:41,229
Hopefully, I haven't offended anybody with my
stances here, you know, my opinions, but I
1305
01:08:41,229 --> 01:08:41,550
don't know.
1306
01:08:41,550 --> 01:08:44,305
I guess it is what it is and that's what I
believe, so there it is.
1307
01:08:44,305 --> 01:08:47,664
Try to challenge your in group bias if if
you're feeling that way at the current moment,
1308
01:08:47,664 --> 01:08:48,225
everyone.
1309
01:08:48,305 --> 01:08:50,545
I still love you, so it's it's all good,
brother.
1310
01:08:50,545 --> 01:08:51,024
Thank you.
1311
01:08:51,024 --> 01:08:53,024
Thank you, thank you everyone for hopping on.
1312
01:08:53,024 --> 01:08:55,024
Like, this has been an awesome episode.
1313
01:08:55,024 --> 01:08:59,139
If you like this no no BS approach to wellness,
would I suggest you hit the subscribe button so
1314
01:08:59,139 --> 01:09:00,099
you never miss an episode.
1315
01:09:00,099 --> 01:09:03,460
And if there's an expert you want us to talk to
next, hit us up on Instagram or hit us up on
1316
01:09:03,460 --> 01:09:03,859
YouTube.
1317
01:09:04,020 --> 01:09:05,059
We'd love to hear from you.
1318
01:09:05,059 --> 01:09:06,500
See you next time on Decision Lab.
1319
01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:06,899
Peace.
1320
01:09:06,899 --> 01:09:07,380
Bye, everyone.
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,479
Does Tylenol cause autism?
2
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:09,199
Well, we got to interview a PhD neuroscientist
who literally did his dissertation on autism.
3
00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:10,719
Let's go, doctor Ben.
4
00:00:10,719 --> 00:00:12,160
You've probably seen him on TikTok.
5
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,719
He is a social media scientist or not social
media scientist.
6
00:00:14,719 --> 00:00:15,839
He's a science communicator.
7
00:00:16,135 --> 00:00:19,975
And he also just wrote a book on human
connection, social connection, which is helping
8
00:00:19,975 --> 00:00:24,135
us bridge this divided nation and world that
we're in at the current moment and giving
9
00:00:24,135 --> 00:00:27,414
neuroscience and actual tools and tactics to do
so.
10
00:00:27,414 --> 00:00:28,774
So it's a wild episode.
11
00:00:28,774 --> 00:00:29,829
We had a great time with him.
12
00:00:29,829 --> 00:00:30,870
Let's dive in.
13
00:00:36,149 --> 00:00:37,350
Hello, beautiful people.
14
00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:39,350
Welcome back to the Decision Lab Podcast.
15
00:00:39,350 --> 00:00:44,344
And today, we are thrilled to have on doctor
Ben Rhine, an award winning neuroscientist and
16
00:00:44,344 --> 00:00:49,465
author of Why Brains Need Friends with over a
million followers on social media.
17
00:00:49,465 --> 00:00:50,504
Welcome to the pod.
18
00:00:50,504 --> 00:00:51,625
We're so excited to have you.
19
00:00:51,625 --> 00:00:51,945
Yeah.
20
00:00:51,945 --> 00:00:52,585
Thanks for having me.
21
00:00:52,585 --> 00:00:53,384
It's great to be here.
22
00:00:53,384 --> 00:00:53,784
Yeah.
23
00:00:53,784 --> 00:00:54,424
I'm excited.
24
00:00:54,424 --> 00:00:56,024
This would be it's been a long time coming.
25
00:00:56,024 --> 00:00:57,384
We have this we've had this plan for months.
26
00:00:57,390 --> 00:00:57,869
Oh, yeah.
27
00:00:57,869 --> 00:00:58,509
Maybe more.
28
00:00:58,509 --> 00:01:00,509
I mean, it's, like, been sort of planned.
29
00:01:00,509 --> 00:01:00,750
Right?
30
00:01:00,750 --> 00:01:03,229
For, like, soft planned for, like, years, I
wanna say.
31
00:01:03,229 --> 00:01:04,189
So here we are.
32
00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:06,030
Dude, first thing I wanna ask you is how are
doing, man?
33
00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:07,709
I know you got this book launch coming up.
34
00:01:07,709 --> 00:01:09,069
Like, how's life right now?
35
00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:10,685
Like, you breathe in?
36
00:01:10,685 --> 00:01:11,644
Thanks for asking.
37
00:01:11,644 --> 00:01:14,284
It's a that's a pod podcast question I haven't
yet gotten.
38
00:01:14,284 --> 00:01:14,844
I'm alright.
39
00:01:14,844 --> 00:01:15,644
I'm doing pretty well.
40
00:01:15,644 --> 00:01:15,805
Yeah.
41
00:01:15,805 --> 00:01:20,204
The the unconventional thing about my book
launch is I play I have many roles in life, but
42
00:01:20,204 --> 00:01:23,564
some of the more important ones are I am an
author, and the book comes out, obviously,
43
00:01:23,564 --> 00:01:24,284
October 14.
44
00:01:24,579 --> 00:01:28,579
Then I am the chief science officer of the Mind
Science Foundation based in Texas.
45
00:01:28,579 --> 00:01:30,500
We have a big event every year.
46
00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:35,619
That event this year happens to be October 15,
so I have a very, like, intense week there, and
47
00:01:35,619 --> 00:01:40,625
then I'm also a human being and a husband and
my wife is pregnant and she's due with her
48
00:01:40,625 --> 00:01:42,224
first child October 29.
49
00:01:42,384 --> 00:01:48,625
So I have, like, the confluence of the, like,
three largest things two of them are probably
50
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,439
the biggest things I've ever had to deal with
in my life in the same month, and then you
51
00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:55,200
throw in all the other stuff of the Mind
Science Foundation and everything else, so it's
52
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,920
a lot, you know, I'm hanging on, but I don't
know, feel it's a gift.
53
00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:01,359
I am exhausted.
54
00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:05,545
I have taken, I think, 14 flights in the last
two weeks, You know, it's just it's it's
55
00:02:05,545 --> 00:02:09,625
tiring, but I also know that a year from now,
two years from now, I'm gonna look maybe twenty
56
00:02:09,625 --> 00:02:12,745
years, fifty years from now, I'm gonna look
back at this time in my life and say that was a
57
00:02:12,745 --> 00:02:16,985
time unlike any other, and what a gift it is to
have all these amazing things happening at the
58
00:02:16,985 --> 00:02:21,000
same time, even though it may be, you know, a
bit of a pull and stretch to my bandwidth.
59
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:21,879
So hanging in there.
60
00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:22,520
Doing pretty well.
61
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,319
Dude, that is so much falling apart.
62
00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:26,520
You're so right.
63
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,360
It's all the, like, huge things people do in
their lives just all back to back to back.
64
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,240
That's insane.
65
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,199
I can't even believe it.
66
00:02:32,544 --> 00:02:32,944
Yeah.
67
00:02:32,944 --> 00:02:34,864
And soon as it's gonna be sorry, what's that?
68
00:02:34,864 --> 00:02:37,424
I was just saying you might have a kid on
Halloween or close to it too.
69
00:02:37,424 --> 00:02:38,224
That's my favorite holiday.
70
00:02:38,224 --> 00:02:38,784
That'd be cool.
71
00:02:38,784 --> 00:02:43,344
As long as I don't have a kid while I'm in
Texas for the event, that's, that's my big
72
00:02:43,344 --> 00:02:43,664
fear.
73
00:02:43,664 --> 00:02:46,944
So I'm just waiting until once I get back from
that event in Texas, because I live in New
74
00:02:46,944 --> 00:02:50,830
York, that's when it is going to be I'm gonna
feel a lot better because I'm I'm obviously
75
00:02:50,830 --> 00:02:53,709
horrified that my wife's gonna go into labor
while I'm not in town.
76
00:02:53,709 --> 00:02:56,669
So that's there's lot of anxiety around that,
as you can imagine.
77
00:02:56,669 --> 00:02:59,629
But I'm just trying to be optimistic, you know,
that would the baby would be coming, like, two
78
00:02:59,629 --> 00:03:00,669
weeks early if that happens.
79
00:03:00,669 --> 00:03:03,235
So just cross your fingers for me and hope that
the baby comes on time.
80
00:03:03,235 --> 00:03:03,875
Got it.
81
00:03:03,875 --> 00:03:04,754
We'll cross our fingers.
82
00:03:04,754 --> 00:03:06,034
We're all hoping for the best on this.
83
00:03:06,034 --> 00:03:06,514
That's awesome.
84
00:03:06,514 --> 00:03:06,675
Thank you.
85
00:03:06,675 --> 00:03:08,034
Can't imagine how stressful that is.
86
00:03:08,034 --> 00:03:11,314
I'm glad you've got some perspective on it,
though, and can look into the future and be
87
00:03:11,314 --> 00:03:14,769
like, I think I'm gonna look back at this and
be like, it's gonna be okay.
88
00:03:14,769 --> 00:03:16,530
Yeah, it's yeah, it's gonna be cool.
89
00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:20,530
And also, honestly, come November, the book
will be out, the event in Mind Science will be
90
00:03:20,530 --> 00:03:25,090
over, the baby will be here, and I will be
laying on my couch completely sleep deprived,
91
00:03:25,169 --> 00:03:30,574
experiencing the largest oxytocin surge of my
entire life, and just feeling so whatever I'll
92
00:03:30,574 --> 00:03:31,455
be feeling at that time.
93
00:03:31,455 --> 00:03:35,215
Probably exhausted, probably irritable, and
probably very grateful.
94
00:03:35,215 --> 00:03:37,135
So I'm excited for that next stage.
95
00:03:37,215 --> 00:03:43,389
Do you look at something like birth thinking
about is is there a way that you look at it
96
00:03:43,389 --> 00:03:45,310
without the science, like, just as a dad as
well?
97
00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:47,790
Like, or is the science just interweaved in
there?
98
00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:51,469
I think the science is, like, interweaved into
everything I see in life, you know?
99
00:03:51,469 --> 00:03:55,790
Like, and, you know, I'm not this is not a a
plug to my book, although it's gonna sound like
100
00:03:55,790 --> 00:03:57,310
it, and I guess it will be effectively.
101
00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:04,564
But the reason I wrote my book is because I see
our social world, our social lives, our daily
102
00:04:04,564 --> 00:04:08,884
interactions through the lens of being a
neuroscientist who studies social behavior.
103
00:04:08,884 --> 00:04:13,180
And so when it's like we are in a loneliness
epidemic and I'm seeing all these statistics of
104
00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:17,339
social contact going down, isolation going up,
you know, all these indicators going in the
105
00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:22,220
wrong direction, that felt completely different
to me given my perspective from this
106
00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:26,055
neuroscience lens than the average person, and
I wanted to write a book that would kind of
107
00:04:26,055 --> 00:04:29,495
expose that perspective and be like, look, this
is why this actually matters.
108
00:04:29,495 --> 00:04:32,055
This is why brains need friends, that's what
the title of the book is.
109
00:04:32,055 --> 00:04:37,654
And so and the reason I say all that, again not
trying to plug my book, but that, like, that's
110
00:04:37,654 --> 00:04:41,735
genuinely how I'm realizing more and more,
that's how I think about a lot of things, and
111
00:04:41,539 --> 00:04:42,740
it's pretty much everything.
112
00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:47,139
Like the empirical method, the scientific
method can be applied to like basically
113
00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:51,620
everything, and you just can't help your
knowledge and your training shifting the way
114
00:04:51,620 --> 00:04:52,259
you see the world.
115
00:04:52,259 --> 00:04:53,620
I think it happens to everybody, right?
116
00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:58,134
So like a plumber is probably going to try to
fix a problem with the tools a plumber uses,
117
00:04:58,134 --> 00:04:58,375
right?
118
00:04:58,375 --> 00:05:01,495
Whereas like a painter is gonna want to like
cover it up with paint and make it
119
00:05:01,495 --> 00:05:02,454
aesthetically beautiful, right?
120
00:05:02,454 --> 00:05:05,414
Like we all have different approaches, and mine
happens to be neuroscience.
121
00:05:05,414 --> 00:05:09,414
So yeah, when it comes to the baby, I mean, I'm
definitely thinking about the biology, and I
122
00:05:09,414 --> 00:05:12,620
talk a bit about the biology in the book too,
so it's like kind of fresh.
123
00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:16,779
I just wrote those sections pretty recently, so
definitely all wrapped up in neuroscience.
124
00:05:16,779 --> 00:05:18,139
We'll get there.
125
00:05:18,139 --> 00:05:19,899
We're gonna talk a little bit about the book.
126
00:05:19,899 --> 00:05:23,819
Before we do though, like, I would just be so
curious to understand how you got fascinated
127
00:05:23,819 --> 00:05:25,419
with neuroscience, just in general.
128
00:05:25,685 --> 00:05:29,525
Not everyone becomes a neuroscientist, like,
where did it start for you?
129
00:05:29,525 --> 00:05:31,365
It started really young.
130
00:05:31,444 --> 00:05:36,004
Well, when I was in elementary school is when I
realized that I was interested in behavior, and
131
00:05:36,004 --> 00:05:37,444
specifically social behavior.
132
00:05:37,444 --> 00:05:42,270
I literally remember looking around my
cafeteria and seeing some tables of students
133
00:05:42,270 --> 00:05:47,230
that were really, really like outgoing and
rambunctious and loud and energetic, and other
134
00:05:47,230 --> 00:05:50,750
tables that were the total opposite: really
quiet, everyone's reading, you know, or eating
135
00:05:50,750 --> 00:05:53,870
their, you know, looking at their sandwiches,
no one's looking at each other, right?
136
00:05:54,095 --> 00:05:58,895
And I thought, wow, how interesting is it that
we're all different, and why, right?
137
00:05:58,895 --> 00:06:00,254
Like, what's going on here?
138
00:06:00,254 --> 00:06:03,855
But I wasn't thinking about the brain, I was
thinking about who we are and our identities
139
00:06:03,855 --> 00:06:04,814
and personalities.
140
00:06:04,814 --> 00:06:09,295
So when I got to college I started studying
psychology, hoping to study this, right?
141
00:06:09,295 --> 00:06:12,980
Why are kind of the psychology of introversion,
extroversion, I guess.
142
00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:18,419
And then partway through my studies, I had my
doubts about whether psychology was the right
143
00:06:18,419 --> 00:06:19,220
field for me.
144
00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:22,579
I felt like I was more interested in
neuroscience, but I was super intimidated by
145
00:06:22,579 --> 00:06:23,220
neuroscience.
146
00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:27,264
I thought that it was terrifying and I would
never make it through the, you know, genetics
147
00:06:27,264 --> 00:06:30,144
and molecular biology and biochemistry and all
that.
148
00:06:30,144 --> 00:06:36,464
So I stayed in psychology mostly out of fear,
and then I, in my second year, I had a
149
00:06:36,464 --> 00:06:39,420
horrifying nightmare that legitimately changed
my life.
150
00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,139
And if you want, can tell you about the dream,
but just for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it
151
00:06:42,139 --> 00:06:42,460
out.
152
00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:49,900
Basically, I woke up that day and decided I
cannot ignore this feeling in me that tells me
153
00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:51,020
that I want to study the brain.
154
00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:56,365
And it was actually the dream itself and the
experience of being immersed in this virtual, I
155
00:06:56,365 --> 00:07:00,845
guess you call it virtual environment, right,
this dreamscape where there's all these vivid
156
00:07:00,845 --> 00:07:01,564
elements.
157
00:07:01,644 --> 00:07:03,485
We have characters who make decisions.
158
00:07:03,485 --> 00:07:04,284
There's dialogue.
159
00:07:04,284 --> 00:07:05,724
I'm interacting with the characters.
160
00:07:05,724 --> 00:07:06,604
There's a storyline.
161
00:07:07,009 --> 00:07:11,009
I have this sort of agency that I can move
about the dream and seemingly make decisions
162
00:07:11,009 --> 00:07:11,649
and all this.
163
00:07:11,649 --> 00:07:15,649
And and the world changes around me, and it's
horrifying, and it's tailored to my fears.
164
00:07:15,649 --> 00:07:19,250
And I woke up and realized that's unbelievable
that my brain was just doing that.
165
00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:23,754
Like, how did my brain just preserve this sense
of consciousness that I'm, like, moving about
166
00:07:23,754 --> 00:07:26,154
in this dream while also generating everything
around me?
167
00:07:26,235 --> 00:07:27,514
This organ is unbelievable.
168
00:07:27,514 --> 00:07:29,514
I need to study how this organ works.
169
00:07:29,675 --> 00:07:31,595
It's not behavior, it's the machine.
170
00:07:31,595 --> 00:07:35,675
And that's where I switched, like, literally
that day I switched to neuroscience and never
171
00:07:35,675 --> 00:07:39,810
looked back, and I I was lucky enough to get
directly go from undergrad to a PhD in
172
00:07:39,810 --> 00:07:44,529
neuroscience, and then I in my PhD was able to
study the neurobiology of autism, so I got to
173
00:07:44,529 --> 00:07:49,754
sort of answer this, you know, scratch that
itch that I had since elementary school, right?
174
00:07:49,754 --> 00:07:51,834
Like, why are we different why are we all
different socially?
175
00:07:51,834 --> 00:07:53,274
What brain systems guide that?
176
00:07:53,274 --> 00:07:58,714
And then I went on to Stanford for a postdoc
where I studied empathy and specifically how
177
00:07:58,714 --> 00:08:02,555
MDMA, the drug also known as Molly, enhances
empathy.
178
00:08:03,339 --> 00:08:07,339
That wasn't necessarily because I was
interested in MDMA, although it is interesting.
179
00:08:07,339 --> 00:08:12,620
The deeper question is can the brain systems
like, in studying autism I was able to see the
180
00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:16,620
brain systems that drive social behavior can be
altered in a way that makes us less social.
181
00:08:16,865 --> 00:08:21,105
Can the brain systems that drive empathy be
altered in a way that makes us more empathic?
182
00:08:21,105 --> 00:08:26,144
And and how might that be so that maybe we
could develop drugs that enhance empathy for
183
00:08:26,144 --> 00:08:28,705
conditions like psychopathy or something like
that where it could be useful?
184
00:08:28,705 --> 00:08:32,179
And we got some really clear answers on both of
those things through the research that I did.
185
00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:35,860
So it's been a fun journey, and it I guess it
all started with a nightmare in elementary
186
00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:36,259
school.
187
00:08:36,259 --> 00:08:37,059
That's awesome.
188
00:08:37,059 --> 00:08:38,419
I've never heard a story like that.
189
00:08:38,419 --> 00:08:43,055
Something I'm curious about is and some people
might not know this, but people when you get a
190
00:08:43,055 --> 00:08:45,375
PhD, you're studying something extraordinarily
specific.
191
00:08:45,375 --> 00:08:47,295
Like, you you, like, you go deep on something.
192
00:08:47,295 --> 00:08:52,975
Like but how do you go from everything that the
brain is and could be and that you could study
193
00:08:52,975 --> 00:08:57,300
and all these questions to your specific the
thing that you chose.
194
00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,580
Like, how did you get to that specific thing
you did your PhD on?
195
00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:03,059
Well, truthfully, the in my PhD, the decision
was not mine.
196
00:09:03,059 --> 00:09:08,180
It was my my supervisor's because I came in as
a PhD student, and let's be real, I didn't know
197
00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:08,580
shit.
198
00:09:08,580 --> 00:09:13,404
And so my advisor, who really knows this field
very well, was like this is going be your
199
00:09:13,404 --> 00:09:17,965
project, and I said okay, sounds good, as long
as you think this is sensible to study, and it
200
00:09:17,965 --> 00:09:18,285
was.
201
00:09:18,285 --> 00:09:22,524
And so she was the one making that decision, so
I can answer it kind of from her perspective.
202
00:09:22,524 --> 00:09:27,700
We were looking at the genetics of autism and
it's known that there's a bunch of different
203
00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:33,460
causes of autism, and many of them are genetic
or a lot of autism cases are genetic, and then
204
00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:36,980
there are others that are like environmental
and things like that, but when it comes to the
205
00:09:36,980 --> 00:09:42,845
genetic factors, it's well known that there are
some genes that are genetic mutations, or when
206
00:09:42,845 --> 00:09:46,524
the gene sequence has changed, if that happens
to a person, they're much more likely to be
207
00:09:46,524 --> 00:09:49,884
diagnosed with autism and they show social
changes in social behaviors.
208
00:09:49,884 --> 00:09:51,404
And so that was kind of the question.
209
00:09:51,404 --> 00:09:55,779
It was like, okay, this gene sequence changing
somehow makes people behave differently in
210
00:09:55,779 --> 00:09:57,460
social settings, how is that happening?
211
00:09:57,460 --> 00:10:02,100
So what we would do is we would pick one of
those genes, which by the way there are like a
212
00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:05,700
thousand associated with autism, it's a very
complicated condition, that's why it's a
213
00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:09,054
spectrum, but we pick one and we would say, all
right, what's going on here?
214
00:10:09,054 --> 00:10:09,294
Right?
215
00:10:09,294 --> 00:10:13,535
So the genetic variable I was looking at, to
make matters even more complicated and
216
00:10:13,535 --> 00:10:17,934
frustrate listeners, it wasn't one gene, it was
a section of chromosome 16.
217
00:10:17,934 --> 00:10:23,800
It was called position 11.2, which doesn't
matter, it was like 27 a stretch of 27 genes on
218
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:29,160
chromosome 16, and it was sometimes duplicated,
so you'd have twice as many genes as you need,
219
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,160
or it'd be deleted where you have all these
genes missing, 27 genes, and a good analogy is
220
00:10:33,195 --> 00:10:35,274
like trisomy twenty one, Down syndrome, right?
221
00:10:35,274 --> 00:10:39,514
You have this chromosome 21, there's an when
there's an additional chromosome it produces
222
00:10:39,514 --> 00:10:43,514
these characteristic effects that we know as
Down syndrome.
223
00:10:43,595 --> 00:10:48,110
So I was studying the duplication of this one
little section of chromosome 16, and so what we
224
00:10:48,110 --> 00:10:52,110
would do to study this is we would duplicate
that chromosome or that section of the
225
00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,789
chromosome in mice and then we would study
their brains and we would look at what's going
226
00:10:55,789 --> 00:11:02,535
on in the brain, can we basically identify the
thread that connects this genetic change to
227
00:11:02,615 --> 00:11:06,294
whatever difference in brain function is
happening, and then can we connect that
228
00:11:06,294 --> 00:11:08,934
difference in brain function to the change in
behavior.
229
00:11:08,934 --> 00:11:14,934
And so what we end up doing is zooming in on
the prefrontal cortex, a pretty well known
230
00:11:14,429 --> 00:11:18,830
brain area, and we found that there was changes
in signaling between the neurons synaptic
231
00:11:18,909 --> 00:11:23,070
synapses, the junctions between cells where
neurotransmitters are released and all this
232
00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:24,830
communication happens between cells.
233
00:11:24,909 --> 00:11:28,750
We found that there were basically changes in
the way the cells were communicating and those
234
00:11:28,274 --> 00:11:30,675
those mice were also interacting less with each
other.
235
00:11:30,675 --> 00:11:33,475
So sounds similar reminiscent of autism.
236
00:11:33,475 --> 00:11:37,715
So what we did is we actually went in and
basically asked the question if we restore the
237
00:11:37,715 --> 00:11:42,434
synaptic transmission, the way the cells are
interacting, if we restore it to what is
238
00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:45,350
typically seen, does that reverse the changes
in the social behaviors?
239
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:49,990
And it did, so we found that by altering the
neural communication the mice became more
240
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:53,750
social, which, you know, this could give it a
massive tangent, but it was we only did that
241
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:59,514
experiment to see are what we is this change we
noticed responsible for the social differences,
242
00:11:59,675 --> 00:12:04,795
but in finding that restoring that brain
function can enhance social interaction, it
243
00:12:04,795 --> 00:12:09,754
naturally opens the door to, well, could this
be a potential treatment mechanism for autism
244
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:09,919
spectrum disorder?
245
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,519
And that happens a lot in mice and it almost
never translates to humans.
246
00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,959
Like, you'd be shocked there's probably I'm
just completely guessing, but I would bet in
247
00:12:16,959 --> 00:12:22,159
the last year there have probably been 25 to 30
papers published where autism was cured in
248
00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:25,644
mice, air quotes cured, and that they were the
mice became more social after some brain
249
00:12:25,644 --> 00:12:30,044
manipulation, and I can promise that probably
none of those will translate to humans,
250
00:12:30,044 --> 00:12:33,644
unfortunately, but it does uncover a bit more
about how the condition works.
251
00:12:33,644 --> 00:12:37,720
So anyway, sorry, you asked me how I got to
what I studied and I just told you my entire
252
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,920
PhD thesis, so sorry for going a little
overboard on that.
253
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,879
No, it's okay.
254
00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:45,559
I prefer it honestly, and it's it's interesting
because there's some interesting things
255
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:50,615
happening in the world today in relation to
autism and you seem to be the perfect person to
256
00:12:50,615 --> 00:12:51,095
talk to.
257
00:12:51,095 --> 00:12:54,615
What was the most surprising thing you learned
about autism during your research?
258
00:12:54,615 --> 00:12:56,774
Gosh, I mean, I I learned a lot.
259
00:12:56,855 --> 00:13:01,174
Gosh, probably the biggest, like, woah, this is
nuts moment was when I did those experiments
260
00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:05,550
that I actually just described, where I I did
something you would never do to a human being.
261
00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:10,670
I injected a virus into the prefrontal cortex
of these mice in order to increase the
262
00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:15,389
expression of a certain protein so that that
protein could then go over to synapses and
263
00:13:15,389 --> 00:13:19,595
cause a change in the way the cells signal, and
I thought there's no way this is going to do
264
00:13:19,595 --> 00:13:19,995
anything.
265
00:13:19,995 --> 00:13:24,794
Like I literally did a brain surgery on a mouse
hoping to God it works, you know, based on just
266
00:13:24,794 --> 00:13:29,595
theory, and then I put them into a behavioral
test where they have the choice between
267
00:13:29,595 --> 00:13:35,730
interacting with an inanimate object or another
mouse, and mouse after mouse after mouse they
268
00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:39,410
were super social, even though before the
surgery they were not social at all.
269
00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:44,690
And that moment of like, I just altered this
mouse's neurochemistry in a way that makes it
270
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:48,595
want to interact more, That was like the most
mind blowing thing and it's and it's funny
271
00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:52,914
because those moments happen, you know, you
expect you might picture like a team of
272
00:13:52,914 --> 00:13:57,954
scientists like rejoicing and popping a bottle
of champagne, but it's actually me sitting in
273
00:13:57,954 --> 00:14:03,470
this dark crummy academic building in a room
with the lights off with the mice and there's
274
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:06,429
no humans around and I'm just like, Woah, this
is crazy.
275
00:14:06,429 --> 00:14:09,470
But again, no one's tested my approach in
humans.
276
00:14:09,629 --> 00:14:12,750
There's ways to do it without having to inject
a virus, by the way, that's just the way it's
277
00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:16,375
done in animal studies because it's the fastest
and most efficient way to do it.
278
00:14:16,375 --> 00:14:19,575
But, yeah, no one's tested that in humans and I
don't know if it would be if it would make
279
00:14:19,575 --> 00:14:23,334
sense in humans, but anyways I think that maybe
all of that is my biggest learning, like my
280
00:14:23,334 --> 00:14:26,375
biggest surprise, that like woah you can
actually change behavior by changing
281
00:14:26,375 --> 00:14:30,709
neurochemistry and then it might not even mean
anything for humans though, just to say.
282
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:35,829
But another learning I had is when I started
talking about that finding on social media, you
283
00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:39,269
know, five years ago, and I thought people were
gonna be like wow, this is unbelievable.
284
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:43,575
And a lot of people were, but then there were a
lot of people who were like It is disgusting of
285
00:14:43,575 --> 00:14:49,095
you to even propose that my autism or my son's
autism or my friend's autism should be cured.
286
00:14:49,095 --> 00:14:53,335
And I was like, Woah, like first off, I never
even said that, like that's not the intention.
287
00:14:53,335 --> 00:14:57,899
The intention of this experiment was not to
identify a cure for autism, it was to just
288
00:14:57,899 --> 00:15:02,220
mechanistically show that the changes we saw in
the brain were responsible for the behavioral
289
00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:02,700
changes.
290
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:04,940
That's the whole purpose of doing mouse
research.
291
00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:09,179
It's the only reason we're doing this in mice
because if we wanted just correlations, we
292
00:15:09,179 --> 00:15:09,899
could do that in humans.
293
00:15:09,899 --> 00:15:12,975
We could take human beings, put them in brain
scanners, and see, Oh look, there's a change in
294
00:15:12,975 --> 00:15:17,054
this brain area and they also show this social
change, that's a correlation but we don't know
295
00:15:17,054 --> 00:15:17,855
it's responsible.
296
00:15:17,855 --> 00:15:22,415
In mice, we can reverse the brain function that
we're noticing and test whether it alters the
297
00:15:22,415 --> 00:15:26,870
behavior, so that's the whole purpose, but that
doesn't necessarily suggest that I think autism
298
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:28,309
should be, like, eradicated.
299
00:15:28,309 --> 00:15:31,350
And that's what people how people perceive it,
or some people did.
300
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:33,029
And that taught me a lot.
301
00:15:33,029 --> 00:15:38,629
That made me really understand the autism
community on a whole new level, where it was
302
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:43,684
like, yeah that makes perfect sense there's a
lot of people who are diagnosed with autism who
303
00:15:43,684 --> 00:15:49,284
are perfectly content with being autistic and
also are probably sick of hearing people like
304
00:15:49,284 --> 00:15:50,325
RFK Jr.
305
00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:55,339
Say things like if you have autism, you know,
we have the cure and, you know, don't take
306
00:15:55,339 --> 00:15:59,980
Tylenol and it's terrible when these people
have autism, like this is the language that's
307
00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:05,980
used in the public sector around autism a lot
and I've become aware of that and so I try
308
00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:12,394
whenever I can to sort of pass that learning on
where it's like, you know, I can't even imagine
309
00:16:12,394 --> 00:16:17,834
what it would be like if if someone was trying
to tell me all the time that the way I am needs
310
00:16:17,834 --> 00:16:19,355
to be changed medically.
311
00:16:20,075 --> 00:16:25,129
And to be sure, there are people who actually
do want treatments, but not everybody.
312
00:16:25,129 --> 00:16:28,330
And so the language is really sensitive, and
the way it's approached is really sensitive,
313
00:16:28,330 --> 00:16:30,330
and I am now sensitive to that.
314
00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:35,210
So it's even more frustrating also to see kind
of the discourse that's happening right now
315
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:38,764
around autism, and, you know, there's a lot
going on.
316
00:16:38,764 --> 00:16:39,085
Yeah.
317
00:16:39,085 --> 00:16:40,445
More on the Tylenol thing in a second.
318
00:16:40,445 --> 00:16:44,125
Something that I'm curious about, though, is
the the mice something that's always pissed me
319
00:16:44,125 --> 00:16:45,804
off a little bit, if I'm just being for real.
320
00:16:45,804 --> 00:16:49,404
This animal study versus human study, and it's
like, okay.
321
00:16:49,404 --> 00:16:51,004
Why to the average consumer?
322
00:16:51,004 --> 00:16:54,259
Could you help them understand why the fuck do
we do these animal studies?
323
00:16:54,259 --> 00:16:57,539
If all scientists say is, well, it's an animal
study, so we can't really do it.
324
00:16:57,539 --> 00:17:02,259
And ninety seven percent or whatever the stat
is of animal studies don't translate to humans
325
00:17:02,259 --> 00:17:04,900
and all this stuff, like, what what the hell?
326
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:05,220
Why?
327
00:17:05,474 --> 00:17:06,035
Help me
328
00:17:06,035 --> 00:17:09,315
understand So, I mean, I kind of already said
it.
329
00:17:09,315 --> 00:17:15,794
It's that in by doing experiments in animals,
we can we could get more clear answers, right?
330
00:17:15,794 --> 00:17:19,474
Like, if you take let's let's take autism out
of it.
331
00:17:19,474 --> 00:17:22,489
Let's take let's look at Parkinson's, okay.
332
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:26,809
So Parkinson's, you know, it's a
neurodegenerative disorder, it's a movement
333
00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:27,450
disorder.
334
00:17:27,529 --> 00:17:31,049
So let's say you have human patients they have
they have Parkinson's and they're struggling to
335
00:17:31,049 --> 00:17:32,970
move they're struggling to initiate movement.
336
00:17:33,049 --> 00:17:37,284
You put them in a brain scanner and it's like
oh look at this this brain area called the
337
00:17:37,284 --> 00:17:39,844
substantia nigra is less active.
338
00:17:40,005 --> 00:17:43,204
Interesting, it's reliable across all these
patients so there may be something going on
339
00:17:43,204 --> 00:17:44,404
with the substantia nigra.
340
00:17:44,404 --> 00:17:48,059
All right, how can we change that, right?
341
00:17:48,059 --> 00:17:52,779
It's like well we know that the substantia
nigra you know receives inputs from neurons
342
00:17:52,779 --> 00:17:57,419
that produce serotonin and dopamine and GABA
and glutamate and you know and by the way
343
00:17:57,419 --> 00:18:00,380
that's I don't even know if that's true I'm
making this up so let's try giving these
344
00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:04,345
Parkinson's patients a drug that stimulates
GABA release, drug a that stimulates dopamine
345
00:18:04,345 --> 00:18:06,265
release, a drug that stimulates serotonin
release, right?
346
00:18:06,265 --> 00:18:10,825
And it's like we can go through all these
countless clinical trials taking real human
347
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:15,304
beings and exposing them to drugs that likely
will not help and also may exacerbate the
348
00:18:15,304 --> 00:18:19,940
problem, we don't know, or we can go into mice
and we can say, alright, hey, let's get a
349
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:23,779
really deep, instead of just a brain scanner
telling us there's less activity, we can go in
350
00:18:23,779 --> 00:18:26,259
there and we can find out everything we need to
know.
351
00:18:26,339 --> 00:18:30,659
And sure, it might not be identical to what's
happening in the human brain, but it's likely
352
00:18:30,659 --> 00:18:32,724
that there's gonna be a lot in common.
353
00:18:32,724 --> 00:18:36,164
And so if we go in and we find, oh actually,
you know, it's not that the entire brain area
354
00:18:36,164 --> 00:18:40,164
is less active, it's that there's certain
neurons that, you know, these are the ones that
355
00:18:40,164 --> 00:18:43,604
are less active, and what if we go in there and
we just stimulate those?
356
00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:48,130
That actually allows the mice to move better,
but stimulating the other neurons doesn't.
357
00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:53,170
Well, we've just identified something much more
high resolution that we never ever, ever would
358
00:18:53,170 --> 00:18:54,369
be able to do in humans.
359
00:18:54,369 --> 00:18:58,769
Even if we gave the people a drug and we and it
made them feel better and made them be able to
360
00:18:58,769 --> 00:19:02,174
move better, we still wouldn't really
understand the mechanism, and so the the animal
361
00:19:02,174 --> 00:19:07,775
studies allow us to identify the mechanism
which also sort of begets new opportunities for
362
00:19:07,775 --> 00:19:08,494
drug treatments.
363
00:19:08,494 --> 00:19:14,049
Okay, we know that this mechanism is what needs
to be done, so this drug happens to do it, but
364
00:19:14,049 --> 00:19:17,330
that drug also has all these side effects, so
if we can find a cleaner drug that more
365
00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:20,369
specifically targets that mechanism, then we
can have better human treatments.
366
00:19:20,369 --> 00:19:26,849
And so I will say, you know, there's there's
there's a lot of animal research that doesn't
367
00:19:26,849 --> 00:19:32,315
need to be animal research, And I think you
won't hear scientists confess that often, but,
368
00:19:32,315 --> 00:19:36,394
you know, like sometimes there's labs that they
only do animal research and they want to answer
369
00:19:36,394 --> 00:19:41,160
a question and they want to have an experiment
in their study to make it stronger and it would
370
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,279
actually make way more sense to do it in
humans, but they don't have the capacity to do
371
00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:46,920
it in humans because they don't have IRB
approval, you know, they don't have
372
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,759
institutional approval to do studies in humans,
and they don't have the ability to recruit
373
00:19:50,759 --> 00:19:54,119
human patients to come to the lab, so it's
easier for them to just do it in mice because
374
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,275
they have the mice accessible and that's how
they know how to do research.
375
00:19:57,434 --> 00:20:01,914
And so it's things like that where you end up
with unnecessary use of lab animals for
376
00:20:01,914 --> 00:20:04,234
studies, but it's, I don't know, it's tough.
377
00:20:04,234 --> 00:20:09,674
I mean science is science is a business and
every researcher is an entrepreneur, and they
378
00:20:09,674 --> 00:20:14,869
are doing everything to support their lab and
their career in a very competitive market, and
379
00:20:14,869 --> 00:20:16,950
so publish or perish, they say, right?
380
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:22,549
You have to publish neighbors or your lab falls
apart and you don't die, but your career dies.
381
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:29,164
And yeah, it's a tough, complicated, messy
circumstance, and the answers, I don't know,
382
00:20:29,085 --> 00:20:30,684
kind of it's very political, right?
383
00:20:30,684 --> 00:20:35,005
To find the right answers, you would need
everything to change, and it's kind of like if
384
00:20:35,005 --> 00:20:39,005
you have a political problem that you, you
know, would require major legislation to change
385
00:20:39,005 --> 00:20:39,964
and it will never pass.
386
00:20:39,964 --> 00:20:40,765
It's kind of like that.
387
00:20:40,765 --> 00:20:45,039
It's like we can try to rectify some of these
issues, but it's it's like old problems that
388
00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,960
have been around for a long time, and a
solution would be, like, nearly impossible
389
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,799
unless there unless there was, like, widespread
simultaneous adoption, which is, like, almost
390
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,359
impossible.
391
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:58,005
You have the unique lens also of being a social
media, like, influencer, if you will, creator,
392
00:20:58,005 --> 00:20:59,444
like, a science communicator.
393
00:20:59,684 --> 00:21:07,524
In this vein, you could put up a story, recruit
probably thousands of human people for a study,
394
00:21:07,524 --> 00:21:10,644
and do like, why is that not two things.
395
00:21:10,724 --> 00:21:11,125
Why not?
396
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:13,990
Like or will you do that in the future maybe?
397
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:15,910
Is that the future of science potentially?
398
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:20,470
Like, as you would, like, interject these two,
your research and your social media side.
399
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:21,509
Like, have you thought about that?
400
00:21:21,509 --> 00:21:22,390
Like, what is your thought on that?
401
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:28,184
Oh, I could do that, but the scientist who I
worked with in my PhD could not do that, right?
402
00:21:28,184 --> 00:21:31,384
Because she's not on social media, she has no
idea how the hell it works, and most scientists
403
00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:36,424
are they shy away from social media, and
historically social media is not a part of
404
00:21:36,424 --> 00:21:37,545
being a scientist, right?
405
00:21:37,545 --> 00:21:38,585
This is a very new thing.
406
00:21:38,899 --> 00:21:43,460
So I do think it's possible, but I mean, it's
so funny because you come around when you see
407
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:48,099
both perspectives of a situation, it makes you
realize that, like, marketing is really
408
00:21:48,099 --> 00:21:48,579
difficult.
409
00:21:48,579 --> 00:21:49,619
Let me explain what I mean.
410
00:21:49,619 --> 00:21:52,259
A couple years ago, I won this research award,
this grant.
411
00:21:52,259 --> 00:21:55,894
It was a $30,000 grant, and I thought, oh my
gosh, this is unbelievable.
412
00:21:55,894 --> 00:21:57,255
I'm so happy I won this.
413
00:21:57,734 --> 00:21:59,414
You know, I must have been so competitive.
414
00:21:59,414 --> 00:22:02,054
Now I'm the chief science officer of the
foundation that funded me.
415
00:22:02,215 --> 00:22:08,330
Part of my job is recruiting people to apply,
and so it's like you would think we're giving
416
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:12,890
out a $100,000 in research funding, you would
think people would like flock to this
417
00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:16,970
opportunity and apply, but it's like, well no,
they don't unless we market it, right?
418
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:21,529
We have to market this opportunity, and so the
same is true with like, you know, clinical
419
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:25,075
trials, like pretty much anything, but you
think, you know, we have a new clinical trial
420
00:22:25,075 --> 00:22:28,674
for Alzheimer's disease, man, think about how
many people are out there with Alzheimer's that
421
00:22:28,674 --> 00:22:30,755
are just desperate for any new potential
treatment.
422
00:22:30,755 --> 00:22:35,555
You launch this clinical trial and research
labs will pay tens of thousands of dollars to
423
00:22:35,555 --> 00:22:40,049
recruit participants for these studies, because
marketing is difficult and getting people,
424
00:22:40,049 --> 00:22:42,289
getting information in front of people is
difficult.
425
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:46,769
So as what I've learned through like social
media and and all this marketing stuff is like,
426
00:22:47,090 --> 00:22:52,555
as wonderful as of an opportunity as you have
and that you are offering people for free, you
427
00:22:52,555 --> 00:22:56,315
often still have to like spend money and do
hard work to get them to even know that it
428
00:22:56,315 --> 00:22:56,795
exists.
429
00:22:56,795 --> 00:23:00,315
And I think that's part of the problem, because
I think scientists don't want to, you know,
430
00:23:00,315 --> 00:23:05,240
spend money recruiting people and and it would
be great if all scientists had, you know,
431
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,559
greater publicity to get the word out, but we
don't.
432
00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,480
And that's part of the problem with science as
well, that science has historically siloed
433
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,920
itself from society, that there is no direct
channel of communication between science and
434
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,224
the public, so it's even harder to to recruit
participants and to, you know, break into new
435
00:23:21,224 --> 00:23:22,585
human research and stuff like that.
436
00:23:22,585 --> 00:23:24,825
Do you see that changing or breaking down in
the future?
437
00:23:24,825 --> 00:23:28,744
Like, do you think there could be lots of
doctor Benz that do have social media
438
00:23:28,744 --> 00:23:34,119
followings, can blend both sides of it, and
it's like a new fleet of scientists almost
439
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,960
social media scientists, if you will?
440
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,480
I think we're there, actually.
441
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,880
I think we're already there, and I do think
that the younger generations of scientists are
442
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,039
are understanding this more and more.
443
00:23:44,325 --> 00:23:48,325
I actually teach a class at Stanford called How
to Communicate Science, where where, you know,
444
00:23:48,325 --> 00:23:53,524
David Eagleman teaches it with me and we're
trying to inspire the next generation of PhD
445
00:23:53,524 --> 00:23:57,924
students and researchers to consider writing
public facing articles or jumping on social
446
00:23:57,924 --> 00:23:58,565
media and whatnot.
447
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:01,619
And and there's a there's a hearty response for
it, right?
448
00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:06,019
These younger students want it, so I think that
we are getting there and a decade from now or
449
00:24:06,019 --> 00:24:10,339
the next generation of scientists will be much
more prone to using public facing communication
450
00:24:10,339 --> 00:24:10,900
methods.
451
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:17,275
However, I do think there's a risk that what
could happen is, as you know, there are, you
452
00:24:17,275 --> 00:24:19,914
know, in one of my videos I say I'm a
scientist, not a bullshit guy.
453
00:24:19,914 --> 00:24:22,714
There's a lot of bullshit guys on social media.
454
00:24:22,714 --> 00:24:28,234
And what could happen, what might happen, is
that the ratio of bullshit guys to actual
455
00:24:28,234 --> 00:24:34,660
scientists gets so disproportionately ugly
scientists start to view social media as
456
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:39,619
nothing but a pit of garbage, that if for them
to go in there and associate with a platform
457
00:24:39,619 --> 00:24:43,765
like Instagram or TikTok will make them look
bad because they're dragging their own name
458
00:24:43,765 --> 00:24:46,244
through a mud pit of all misinformation.
459
00:24:46,644 --> 00:24:50,565
And if we allow it to get that bad, then I
think that science could become even more
460
00:24:50,565 --> 00:24:54,484
siloed, where it's like we don't, you know, we
don't affiliate with that, like that's where
461
00:24:54,484 --> 00:24:55,599
the scientists go.
462
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,279
So like if you see someone on social media
talking about science, they're not real because
463
00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:03,839
we don't use it, you know, and that would be, I
mean, that would be terrible, and in a way
464
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:05,200
that's also sort of happening.
465
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,714
So I don't know, it's disaster to be to be
honest.
466
00:25:09,714 --> 00:25:10,914
It is a disaster.
467
00:25:10,914 --> 00:25:14,674
Us humans are great at navigating those
historically, I've heard too, so
468
00:25:14,595 --> 00:25:14,994
Yeah.
469
00:25:14,994 --> 00:25:15,234
Yeah.
470
00:25:15,234 --> 00:25:16,194
We'll get through it.
471
00:25:17,474 --> 00:25:19,634
How do you decide between a bullshitter or a
not?
472
00:25:19,634 --> 00:25:22,115
Like, what's your what's your mechanism for
that?
473
00:25:22,115 --> 00:25:22,515
Alright.
474
00:25:22,515 --> 00:25:24,359
I mean, first actually, no.
475
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,920
All it really comes down to is what are they
claiming and is it true.
476
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,600
That's pretty much all that all that matters.
477
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,440
And it starts with their credentials.
478
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,440
Many I've noticed that a lot of so I work in
neuroscience, I pay attention to the
479
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,720
neuroscience creators the most, and I've
noticed that a lot of these creators in this
480
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,194
space who don't have credentials start their
videos by saying I'm a neuroscientist.
481
00:25:43,275 --> 00:25:46,394
They're like within the first, like, five
seconds.
482
00:25:46,394 --> 00:25:50,394
They pose a hook and then they're like I'm a
neuroscientist, here's the answer.
483
00:25:50,394 --> 00:25:56,200
And a lot of the time when you dig into that
claim, the claim I am a neuroscientist, okay,
484
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,960
you're a neuroscientist, that implies that you
have, in my opinion, that implies that you are
485
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,599
actively conducting scientific research, right?
486
00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:04,279
A scientist is a career path, right?
487
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:10,285
I wouldn't say that I was a hairstylist if I
did my, you know, my friend's hair five years
488
00:26:10,285 --> 00:26:13,164
ago and I used to have like a little salon in
my in my basement.
489
00:26:13,244 --> 00:26:14,525
I'm no longer a hairstylist, right?
490
00:26:14,525 --> 00:26:16,445
I used to be a hairstylist, whatever, it's a
career.
491
00:26:16,445 --> 00:26:20,684
And so what really upsets me is when I see
people who like, you know, they do like an
492
00:26:20,684 --> 00:26:25,500
undergraduate degree, like a bachelor's in
biology, and they like worked in a research lab
493
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:30,299
for sixty days and are like second last author
on one research paper and they're like I'm a
494
00:26:30,299 --> 00:26:31,099
neuroscientist.
495
00:26:31,099 --> 00:26:34,940
And it's so muddy because it's like are you a
neuroscientist, are you not?
496
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:40,674
To me, I think, you know, and maybe this is
like like gatekeepy of me, but I think if
497
00:26:40,674 --> 00:26:43,315
you're gonna go online and you're gonna say
you're a neuroscientist, you should have a PhD
498
00:26:43,315 --> 00:26:48,755
and have done a research in neuroscience, or
you should be a PhD student is a
499
00:26:48,755 --> 00:26:49,315
neuroscientist.
500
00:26:49,315 --> 00:26:51,714
They are spending their career doing
neuroscience research.
501
00:26:52,115 --> 00:26:56,589
And and basically what it turns out is that all
the people who say I'm a neuroscientist are non
502
00:26:56,589 --> 00:26:58,829
neuroscientists, by my definition at least.
503
00:26:59,309 --> 00:27:00,429
So that's the first thing.
504
00:27:00,429 --> 00:27:03,230
Then let's get past their credentials just to
what they're actually saying.
505
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:08,664
I mean it's the more loosely someone talks
about a topic, the more prone they are to
506
00:27:08,664 --> 00:27:10,744
misrepresenting it, naturally, right?
507
00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:14,744
So like science communication is a difficult
job because you're trying to take really,
508
00:27:14,744 --> 00:27:18,585
really nuanced material and make it very clear,
and so in order to do that you have to zoom
509
00:27:18,585 --> 00:27:23,630
out, have to step back, and you have to explain
it in a very broad general way that leaves out
510
00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:24,989
a lot of the nuance and detail.
511
00:27:25,069 --> 00:27:29,470
And when people who really understand a topic
do that, they do it well, because they're
512
00:27:29,470 --> 00:27:33,549
representing the topic in the way that it needs
to be represented, but it can also be done in a
513
00:27:33,549 --> 00:27:39,984
way that removes so much nuance and strays so
far from the actual data that it becomes
514
00:27:39,984 --> 00:27:45,904
misinformation, it becomes just not true, and
that's what I also look for is if a person is
515
00:27:45,904 --> 00:27:50,940
talking about a subject very broadly and
they're just making claims, this is associated
516
00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:54,299
with this and that and this, whatever, are they
citing studies?
517
00:27:54,299 --> 00:27:55,740
Are they showing their evidence?
518
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,099
Are they is it even true?
519
00:27:57,099 --> 00:28:01,500
Like if you just pluck out one of the claims
and you do a search online, is it true what
520
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:02,299
they're saying?
521
00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:05,755
And yeah, unfortunately, like I said, there's a
lot of bullshit guys right now.
522
00:28:05,755 --> 00:28:09,034
There's a lot of people who, if you do that and
if you fact check them, you'll find it's
523
00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:09,674
actually not true.
524
00:28:09,674 --> 00:28:14,154
And so I'm hoping that we'll have more tools
that will be like online fact checkers, that
525
00:28:14,154 --> 00:28:19,039
you can like plug a YouTube video in or TikTok
video in and it'll just transcribe the text and
526
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:23,440
do like a, you know, PubMed search and say this
is whether, you know, it's true or it's false
527
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,679
or there's parts of it that are true, there's
parts of it that are false.
528
00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:29,440
Because right now the average person can't do
that and there's a lot of people who take
529
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,025
advantage of the inaccessibility of the
information because if they say something and
530
00:28:33,025 --> 00:28:36,464
you have no way to fact check it because you
cannot access scientific papers and you cannot
531
00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:39,505
interpret scientific papers, you are
automatically going to be forced to basically
532
00:28:39,505 --> 00:28:42,224
believe them and and that's, that's a dirty
practice.
533
00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:43,799
It's a very, very dirty practice.
534
00:28:43,799 --> 00:28:47,640
So I I have a lot of distrust on the Internet
because there's a lot of fake stuff.
535
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,240
Have you ever seen Consensus AI?
536
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,039
Have you ever used that?
537
00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:50,599
No.
538
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:52,039
I've heard of it though, I think.
539
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,319
We use that a lot for DecisionLab and, like,
examining claims.
540
00:28:55,319 --> 00:29:00,035
I use it for my own content a lot as well, but
it sits on the top of PubMed and, like,
541
00:29:00,035 --> 00:29:05,475
PsycINFO and, like, all of these research
databases and pulls only from research and then
542
00:29:05,475 --> 00:29:06,994
gives you, like, a consensus meter.
543
00:29:06,994 --> 00:29:10,980
You put in a claim and then it's like, this
percent of research supports it, this percent
544
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:12,660
doesn't, or it's like it's undecided.
545
00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:17,380
And then it's like, this research, it was a
meta analysis of 25 piece thing.
546
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:19,859
This was a observational study that whatever.
547
00:29:19,859 --> 00:29:23,934
And it makes it really, really simple and easy
to understand some of that and, like, be that
548
00:29:23,934 --> 00:29:25,055
BS detector.
549
00:29:25,055 --> 00:29:25,535
Yeah.
550
00:29:25,535 --> 00:29:25,855
That's a great
551
00:29:25,855 --> 00:29:26,414
tool.
552
00:29:26,815 --> 00:29:28,414
We use that we use that a ton.
553
00:29:28,414 --> 00:29:30,335
It's interesting too because I see this a ton.
554
00:29:30,335 --> 00:29:35,855
Even I fell into this as well because I have a
I'm a I have a cognitive cognitive behavioral
555
00:29:35,855 --> 00:29:37,455
neuroscience undergraduate degree.
556
00:29:37,455 --> 00:29:38,575
That's my like, what I have.
557
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:40,920
As a young undergraduate, I was like, oh, yay.
558
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:41,559
I get to start.
559
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:43,799
My brother has a mechanical engineering degree.
560
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:44,679
He's an engineer.
561
00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:46,039
I have a neuroscience degree.
562
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:47,240
I'm a neuroscientist.
563
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,559
And I quickly realized that that's not how the
rest of the scientific community looks at it.
564
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,515
So I try to say I have a degree or I don't try.
565
00:29:54,515 --> 00:29:58,994
I do say I have a degree in cognitive
neuroscience as opposed to the hook of I am a
566
00:29:58,994 --> 00:29:59,954
neuroscientist.
567
00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:01,394
Because I do I see that a lot too.
568
00:30:01,394 --> 00:30:02,195
And I was like, what?
569
00:30:02,195 --> 00:30:02,914
What is this?
570
00:30:02,914 --> 00:30:03,154
Yeah.
571
00:30:03,154 --> 00:30:04,115
And I had
572
00:30:04,769 --> 00:30:09,410
Sorry, I'm not gonna say any names, but there
are some like really bad offenders of this that
573
00:30:09,410 --> 00:30:14,690
are like they have massive audiences and every
single video they remind you, Hi, I'm this
574
00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:17,650
person and I'm a neuroscientist, and you know,
they're not.
575
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:23,964
They're just simply not a neuroscientist and
and it's it's, it's concerning because when you
576
00:30:23,964 --> 00:30:27,644
say to the general public I'm a neuroscientist,
people are like wow okay, well you know what
577
00:30:27,644 --> 00:30:29,164
you're talking about, what are you gonna say?
578
00:30:29,164 --> 00:30:32,765
And then you say take this supplement because
it'll reduce the chances of you getting
579
00:30:32,765 --> 00:30:36,500
dementia, there's a link in my bio, and you're
like okay, well this guy's a frickin'
580
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:39,059
neuroscientist, I'm gonna buy his stuff, right?
581
00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:44,900
But then if you I'm trying to be very cautious
here, but I've heard of scenarios where people
582
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:49,384
like that have been actually taken to or have
gone to court because other people have said
583
00:30:49,384 --> 00:30:54,505
you're actually not a neuroscientist, and they
reply that's defamation, I am a neuroscientist,
584
00:30:54,585 --> 00:31:00,720
and then in court they argue that they are a
neuroscientist because for a career they study
585
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,759
neuroscience.
586
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:06,559
They read the literature and they talk about it
online, and so they are studying neuroscience
587
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:10,960
by reading about it online, and that makes them
a neuroscientist and that's like literally
588
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,759
argued in court.
589
00:31:12,025 --> 00:31:16,585
And so it's horrifying, it's completely
horrifying because it's like I could just go
590
00:31:16,585 --> 00:31:20,105
online and be like I'm an astronaut and then
someone sues me and I could or I could if
591
00:31:20,105 --> 00:31:22,184
someone says something wrong about me I could
sue them.
592
00:31:22,184 --> 00:31:23,865
Like what what is going on?
593
00:31:23,865 --> 00:31:28,940
And this is just like what's so terrifying
about the world right now is that we have truth
594
00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:29,500
decay.
595
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:34,460
We are losing our sense of what is true and it
used to be very obvious that it was like what's
596
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:34,779
true?
597
00:31:34,779 --> 00:31:37,259
Well, it's whatever the evidence says, right?
598
00:31:37,339 --> 00:31:42,254
And now we can point to evidence and say that
evidence is biased, that evidence is flawed, I
599
00:31:42,254 --> 00:31:45,454
saw that evidence on the news station I don't
trust and therefore it's fake.
600
00:31:45,454 --> 00:31:49,694
And this is where things are just getting so
incredibly terrifying, because when we have a
601
00:31:49,694 --> 00:31:56,359
nation that is led not by data and evidence,
but by opinions, we dramatically fall behind
602
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:02,039
and rapidly fall behind other nations that do
follow data and do follow evidence, because if
603
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:08,454
you have a military that the evidence says we
are much weaker than other militaries, but the
604
00:32:08,454 --> 00:32:12,375
president says our military is the strongest
military in the world and you believe that
605
00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:14,774
person, like this is a problem, right?
606
00:32:14,774 --> 00:32:19,494
And military is a clear example because, like,
there's significant repercussions, but also how
607
00:32:19,494 --> 00:32:20,375
about medicine, right?
608
00:32:20,375 --> 00:32:24,880
When we have people dying of conditions and
saying certain medications are the cure and
609
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,840
they're not and people start taking them and
then people start dying because they're not
610
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,799
taking the right medications, like the
repercussions are astronomical and like how
611
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,320
even do approach a topic like this?
612
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,840
How do you even fix a situation when people
don't know what's real anymore?
613
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:43,325
That is so scary and dystopian, and something I
think about way too often for my own
614
00:32:43,325 --> 00:32:43,804
well-being.
615
00:32:43,804 --> 00:32:44,365
I feel you.
616
00:32:44,365 --> 00:32:46,044
I mean, that's at the heart of why we started
this show.
617
00:32:46,044 --> 00:32:50,605
I mean, we have literally had founders on that
call themselves doctors or, like, this claim
618
00:32:50,605 --> 00:32:53,390
they have PhDs, and we start to ask them, okay.
619
00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:54,829
Well, like, what was your research on?
620
00:32:54,829 --> 00:32:55,789
What was your dissertation?
621
00:32:55,789 --> 00:32:57,309
Like, and, well, I didn't do a dissertation.
622
00:32:57,309 --> 00:33:00,910
I I didn't really do research, and this was in
the Cayman Islands that I got this.
623
00:33:00,910 --> 00:33:02,109
And I was just like, what?
624
00:33:02,109 --> 00:33:05,845
And so to me, it's like, for the answer for us
is, like, let's have a conversation.
625
00:33:05,845 --> 00:33:07,204
Let's talk about this and, like, really Yeah.
626
00:33:07,285 --> 00:33:12,404
Let people determine for themselves in a way,
but by asking, like, really, really intense
627
00:33:12,404 --> 00:33:13,605
questions and stuff like that.
628
00:33:13,605 --> 00:33:14,884
So but I agree with you.
629
00:33:14,884 --> 00:33:16,644
It is it's the Wild West out there.
630
00:33:16,644 --> 00:33:16,964
It's scary.
631
00:33:16,964 --> 00:33:18,325
And I'm in the mental health space too.
632
00:33:18,325 --> 00:33:23,009
So sometimes it's not even just mental health
claims are even crazier because that more of
633
00:33:23,009 --> 00:33:25,009
what I do as as a trauma therapist anyways.
634
00:33:25,009 --> 00:33:29,009
Like, I bring in a ton of neuroscience into
what I do when I see patients.
635
00:33:29,009 --> 00:33:32,369
And there's just a lot that you can do to
really especially in the trauma space that
636
00:33:32,369 --> 00:33:33,729
messes people up worse.
637
00:33:33,809 --> 00:33:35,545
So it's just like, it's crazy.
638
00:33:35,705 --> 00:33:39,785
Well, mean, and there's documented cases of
where the harm falls, right?
639
00:33:39,785 --> 00:33:44,025
Like for instance, when it comes to cancer
treatment, right, we know that chemotherapy is
640
00:33:44,025 --> 00:33:44,744
the gold standard.
641
00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:49,329
It's not perfect by any means, it has obviously
severe side effects, but if you're trying to
642
00:33:49,329 --> 00:33:52,210
improve the likelihood of survival,
chemotherapy is the best option.
643
00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:57,490
But there are a lot of people on social media
who say chemotherapy is just, you know, poison
644
00:33:57,490 --> 00:34:01,730
and if you want to really survive you should do
this or that, you know, get a sauna, take this
645
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:04,085
supplement, you know, natural therapies.
646
00:34:04,085 --> 00:34:09,045
And there's like literally published evidence
on this topic showing that like people, many
647
00:34:09,045 --> 00:34:14,644
people have died because they have listened to
social media over their doctors, and they've
648
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:19,820
there was a recent, very recent case where a
woman died because she was doing coffee enemas
649
00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:24,380
because that's what social media suggested, and
and not doing chemotherapy, and it's like
650
00:34:24,539 --> 00:34:25,820
We just did a video on this.
651
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:29,900
I am so passionate about how stupid coffee
enemas are, like, I'm sorry.
652
00:34:30,014 --> 00:34:30,894
Like Yeah.
653
00:34:30,654 --> 00:34:32,414
That's I didn't know that though.
654
00:34:32,974 --> 00:34:35,454
Like, this there are real people.
655
00:34:35,454 --> 00:34:41,775
It's just it's so scary that the the incentive
for someone to make content that is sensational
656
00:34:41,775 --> 00:34:45,135
and is whatever catches on with someone, right,
gives a person hope.
657
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:48,800
The incentive is so high because you get more
followers, you get more views, you get more
658
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,920
money, you get more opportunities, that those
people will do that at the expense of literal
659
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:54,559
lives.
660
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:58,795
And surely they don't they're not like Oh, I'm
killing people on purpose, right?
661
00:34:58,795 --> 00:35:00,875
Like they probably think coffee enemas actually
work.
662
00:35:00,875 --> 00:35:05,515
That's probably why they're sharing it so much,
but like it's just nerve racking because when
663
00:35:05,515 --> 00:35:10,155
you lose trust in data, then you lose trust in
authority, right?
664
00:35:10,155 --> 00:35:12,074
Because you have and you lose trust in
expertise.
665
00:35:12,429 --> 00:35:16,590
You have doctors who go to medical schools that
when you see the doctor they can answer your
666
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:18,750
question because they know about the human
body.
667
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:22,750
And if you start to distrust your doctor and
start to listen to social media, I mean,
668
00:35:23,309 --> 00:35:26,045
there's just there are consequences, and it's
it's very worrying.
669
00:35:26,045 --> 00:35:30,445
You study social behavior, and we continue to
say social media.
670
00:35:30,525 --> 00:35:36,045
Why do brains who are on that are on social
media why does this happen?
671
00:35:36,045 --> 00:35:37,324
Why how do we get to this place?
672
00:35:37,579 --> 00:35:40,860
Like, with your lens on social behavior, how is
this the thing?
673
00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:42,699
Because if you you say this, know, like, that
makes no sense.
674
00:35:42,699 --> 00:35:44,699
Why would you ever listen to social media over
a doctor?
675
00:35:44,699 --> 00:35:45,579
Like, what the hell?
676
00:35:45,579 --> 00:35:46,539
But it happens.
677
00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:48,539
So what's the brain thing?
678
00:35:48,619 --> 00:35:49,099
What's going on?
679
00:35:49,099 --> 00:35:52,605
I mean, okay, so there are parts of it that are
social, obviously, right?
680
00:35:52,605 --> 00:35:56,684
So like you're scrolling on Instagram, let's
say, and it's you're receiving social
681
00:35:56,684 --> 00:35:57,244
information.
682
00:35:57,244 --> 00:36:01,164
You have a person posted they just had a kid,
that you have a person posting they just bought
683
00:36:01,164 --> 00:36:04,045
a house, you have a person posting their
grandmother just died, right?
684
00:36:04,045 --> 00:36:07,390
Like you are or you have a person posting
here's what my body looks like in a bikini,
685
00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:07,869
right?
686
00:36:07,950 --> 00:36:11,469
You have all this social information that's
coming to you, and that information is valuable
687
00:36:11,469 --> 00:36:15,869
because we are social animals, we live we
survive best in social environments, we care a
688
00:36:15,869 --> 00:36:18,110
lot about our social experience on Earth.
689
00:36:18,074 --> 00:36:22,554
So when you have a platform that allows you to
just gather and harvest social information
690
00:36:22,554 --> 00:36:26,394
without having to actually like do any work,
there's a natural appeal to it.
691
00:36:26,474 --> 00:36:31,355
Then you start mixing in here's a video of, you
know, a cheetah running top speed and chasing
692
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:35,920
down an animal, whatever they chased out, you
know, and here's a video of people fighting and
693
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,400
that's really emotion emotional as well.
694
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,000
And you have just this non stop, literally this
is like an operant chamber for a mouse.
695
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,724
You have a mouse that can press a lever and if
you have a mouse in a chamber that they, when
696
00:36:47,724 --> 00:36:52,284
they press the lever, they receive a zap to
their brain's dopamine centers, so nothing
697
00:36:52,284 --> 00:36:54,525
actually happens, it just drives dopamine
release.
698
00:36:54,605 --> 00:36:58,284
They will just sit there and just press that
lever over and over and over, and it's very
699
00:36:58,284 --> 00:37:03,340
reminiscent to what's happening when someone is
swiping on social media and just over and over,
700
00:37:03,340 --> 00:37:04,780
Is this gonna hit my dopamine center?
701
00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:05,340
Ah, a little bit.
702
00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:05,820
Is this one?
703
00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:06,780
Oh, this one's great.
704
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:07,260
Is this one?
705
00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:08,619
You know, that's all we're doing.
706
00:37:08,619 --> 00:37:12,045
Also very similar to pulling a, you know,
sitting at a slot machine, just pulling the
707
00:37:12,045 --> 00:37:16,684
lever over and over, and so I think that what's
all that's happening is that because of the way
708
00:37:16,684 --> 00:37:21,964
these these platforms are are built to
capitalize on our desire to stay for more
709
00:37:21,964 --> 00:37:26,840
information, we're just spending inordinate
amounts of time there, and naturally as a
710
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,920
consequence of that I think we are listening to
the voices we hear there, you know, and people
711
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,960
are also, you know, creators, they also prey
upon people's natural dispositions and they
712
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,974
recognize that, you know, oh there's a big
controversy in The U.
713
00:37:38,974 --> 00:37:39,135
S.
714
00:37:39,135 --> 00:37:43,934
Right now about autism and Tylenol, and they
know that if they go on social media and they
715
00:37:43,934 --> 00:37:49,454
say, Tylenol doesn't cause autism, this is so
stupid, Donald Trump is an idiot, there's a lot
716
00:37:49,454 --> 00:37:52,579
of people out there who are gonna be like, Wow,
this is exactly what I thought and what I
717
00:37:52,579 --> 00:37:54,579
wanted to hear and that's reinforcing my
beliefs.
718
00:37:54,579 --> 00:37:56,579
Yay, I'm gonna like this, I'm gonna follow this
person.
719
00:37:56,739 --> 00:38:00,420
Or if there's other people going, The doctors
are now coming out and saying Tylenol doesn't
720
00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:00,980
cause autism.
721
00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:03,539
Of course they are, because they're trying to
protect big pharma and they're all funded by
722
00:38:03,539 --> 00:38:05,140
big pharma and we know that Donald Trump is
right.
723
00:38:05,454 --> 00:38:08,894
There's a huge audience of people who are going
to listen to that and say this is exactly what
724
00:38:08,894 --> 00:38:10,974
I thought too, I'm going to follow this person,
right?
725
00:38:10,974 --> 00:38:17,214
And so we end up getting into these horrible
dividing trenches where we are so we're just
726
00:38:17,214 --> 00:38:21,719
following our own opinions and and the
emotional stakes are rising, because I think
727
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,680
when we have the ability to divide us from
them, that's something the brain pays a lot of
728
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,400
attention to.
729
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,880
It's natural we have these tribalistic
tendencies, right?
730
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,400
We treat people differently.
731
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,945
Our brains treat people differently if we if
they seem to identify as our in group.
732
00:38:36,025 --> 00:38:39,864
And there's literally studies showing that the
brain's empathy centers will activate more
733
00:38:39,864 --> 00:38:42,425
strongly if someone shares something in common
with you.
734
00:38:42,425 --> 00:38:46,265
So when someone doesn't, they kind of become
dehumanized in your brain where your brain's
735
00:38:46,265 --> 00:38:49,920
empathy centers are not turning on as much,
you're not paying responding quite as much to
736
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,079
their emotions, you're not experiencing as much
empathy for them, and we have this kind of
737
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,920
division, this like political division leaking
into so many different things.
738
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,679
I mean when before has autism or Tylenol been
political?
739
00:39:01,985 --> 00:39:07,985
And so now you take a completely neutral topic
like Tylenol, and then you assign this
740
00:39:07,985 --> 00:39:12,224
fiftyfifty divide, where now some people don't
believe in Tylenol and some people do believe
741
00:39:12,224 --> 00:39:16,144
in Tylenol, and when you encounter someone with
that different opinion, it raises to your
742
00:39:16,144 --> 00:39:18,640
awareness the division between you and them.
743
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640
They are the outgroup, therefore my empathy is
gonna shut down, it's easier for me to be
744
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,840
hostile to them because I don't feel the guilt
of their pain inflicting back onto me because
745
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,360
of that's what empathy does, it makes us feel
out of people's emotions, and we just end up in
746
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,574
this increasingly hateful divided world,
because all these topics that should not be
747
00:39:35,574 --> 00:39:40,054
political are becoming political, and social
media is, you know, actually I published a
748
00:39:40,054 --> 00:39:44,054
paper a couple years ago, I called it this
hypothesis, the virtual disengagement
749
00:39:44,054 --> 00:39:49,539
hypothesis, referring to the idea that the
brain's empathy centers further or they
750
00:39:49,539 --> 00:39:54,659
disengage or they shut down when we are online
because we don't have social cues to inform
751
00:39:54,659 --> 00:39:57,860
them, because that's basically how the brain's
empathy centers work.
752
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:03,324
When we see facial expressions, we hear vocal
tone, we take in body language, we have all
753
00:40:03,324 --> 00:40:07,085
these social cues that tell our brains this is
a human being in front of me and they are
754
00:40:07,085 --> 00:40:11,324
experiencing these emotions, and so therefore
you are gonna take on some of those emotions
755
00:40:11,324 --> 00:40:11,965
yourself.
756
00:40:12,045 --> 00:40:15,805
But when we don't have that online, we don't
have those social cues, our brains aren't, like
757
00:40:15,805 --> 00:40:19,650
99% of human existence, we have interacted face
to face.
758
00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:24,849
Our brains are not designed to detect that a
social entity is on the other side of this text
759
00:40:24,849 --> 00:40:30,530
on my phone screen, and so it's very natural
and kind of predictable that we would
760
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:35,635
experience less empathy online, which I argue
in the paper could explain the extreme levels
761
00:40:35,635 --> 00:40:37,795
of hostility and division we see online.
762
00:40:37,875 --> 00:40:42,514
So then you take all this political division
and allow people to interact more and more
763
00:40:42,514 --> 00:40:48,980
online and choose their in groups and cater or
tailor their social media feeds to feed them
764
00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:53,859
exactly what their disposition tells them is
true, and you just get even more division and
765
00:40:53,859 --> 00:40:54,260
hate.
766
00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:59,780
And and I think that this is really at the core
of our big social problem in America right now
767
00:40:59,780 --> 00:41:05,695
because a lot more of our interactions with our
the world around us and our fellow Americans
768
00:41:05,695 --> 00:41:10,094
are happening in these contexts where there's
little empathy and we see people for whether
769
00:41:10,094 --> 00:41:11,855
they identify with us or not.
770
00:41:11,855 --> 00:41:19,269
I think we are collectively, bit by bit, losing
this sense of identifying with, like, humanity
771
00:41:19,269 --> 00:41:20,150
in general, right?
772
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:25,109
Like the the amount of the world that we
identify with is shrinking by day as we're
773
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:28,710
finding new reasons to separate from others:
Tylenol, autism, right?
774
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:34,184
All these different things, and I think that is
causing a lot of underlying issues because
775
00:41:34,184 --> 00:41:39,224
social connection is extremely important for
our well-being and isolation is extremely bad
776
00:41:39,224 --> 00:41:39,704
for us.
777
00:41:39,704 --> 00:41:45,699
So I just have a lot of thoughts on this, you
know, and I hate to like be like over here like
778
00:41:45,699 --> 00:41:50,099
slamming the bell, like the alarm bell, right,
but this is kind of how I see the world, you
779
00:41:50,099 --> 00:41:53,699
know, like I mentioned at the beginning that my
training is the lens through which I see the
780
00:41:53,699 --> 00:41:59,014
world, and when I see, you know, political
division in America, I see less healthy brains,
781
00:41:59,014 --> 00:42:04,054
you know, and when I see people interacting
online, I see the absence of social cues.
782
00:42:04,934 --> 00:42:10,210
Yeah, all these things have kind of informed my
my perspective on what's wrong today, again,
783
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:12,690
that's like why I wrote the book, because I'm
hoping that if someone reads the book, they
784
00:42:12,690 --> 00:42:15,890
will recognize, oh yeah, there's these like
flaws in the world.
785
00:42:16,289 --> 00:42:20,930
Now that I'm aware of them, I might actually
try and tailor my life a little bit differently
786
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:23,650
so that I can have a better existence and a
healthier existence.
787
00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:27,884
Can you give an example of like how you would
teach somebody to improve empathy?
788
00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:33,244
Yeah, there's actually like trainings that have
been tested and shown to enhance empathy.
789
00:42:33,244 --> 00:42:34,605
So I'll give you two of them.
790
00:42:34,605 --> 00:42:34,844
Mhmm.
791
00:42:34,844 --> 00:42:37,565
The first is a, it's called an affect dyad.
792
00:42:37,710 --> 00:42:43,150
So the idea is you you have two people, you're
sitting together face to face, and one person
793
00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:47,710
starts by telling the story of something that
happened to them in the last, like, day or two.
794
00:42:47,710 --> 00:42:50,030
Something emotional, something that was
impactful for them.
795
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:53,264
It could be good or bad, it doesn't really
matter, but it should be substantial, right,
796
00:42:53,264 --> 00:42:56,545
it's not just like, oh, went to the grocery
store, it's like this person slipped on my foot
797
00:42:56,545 --> 00:43:00,465
and then started yelling at me, like something
like that, right, and the other person's job is
798
00:43:00,465 --> 00:43:02,545
to do absolutely nothing but listen.
799
00:43:02,545 --> 00:43:06,590
Just look at the person, they listen intently,
they do not interrupt, they don't even have to
800
00:43:06,590 --> 00:43:10,269
respond like with like cues or anything,
they're just listening, and they're working
801
00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:13,550
hard to really embody the emotions of what the
person is describing.
802
00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:16,349
And the person describing should be as
descriptive as possible, you know, oh I felt
803
00:43:16,349 --> 00:43:19,630
like this in this moment, and then I started to
wonder if this was happening, and you as the
804
00:43:19,630 --> 00:43:22,045
listener are just listening, and and then you
switch.
805
00:43:22,285 --> 00:43:26,445
And so that exercise, as you can imagine, is
supportive of building empathy, because you are
806
00:43:26,445 --> 00:43:29,565
literally just for a few minutes doing nothing
but practicing empathy.
807
00:43:29,565 --> 00:43:32,765
It's like you're doing bicep curls, but for the
brain areas that drive empathy.
808
00:43:33,019 --> 00:43:38,860
And then another example of a practice that you
can try is called a loving kindness meditation,
809
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:40,940
and this one's great because it's a meditation.
810
00:43:40,940 --> 00:43:44,460
You can literally like, you can go to YouTube
right now and Google loving kindness meditation
811
00:43:44,460 --> 00:43:45,339
and find one.
812
00:43:45,339 --> 00:43:50,625
And the concept is that you imagine a person
and that person can be a stranger, they can be
813
00:43:50,625 --> 00:43:52,385
a close friend, it could be a sibling.
814
00:43:52,385 --> 00:43:56,224
It's usually easiest to start with someone you
really care about and all you're doing is
815
00:43:56,224 --> 00:44:02,139
you're imagining extending feelings of love and
kindness, loving kindness meditation, to this
816
00:44:02,139 --> 00:44:02,539
person.
817
00:44:02,539 --> 00:44:06,059
You know, you are just sending them warmth, are
sending them care, and you're experiencing,
818
00:44:06,059 --> 00:44:10,940
you're you're just relishing that feeling of
wanting the best for someone and hoping that
819
00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:11,980
they're doing well.
820
00:44:11,980 --> 00:44:15,820
And then what you can do is, let's say first
time you did it, you did it with your mom.
821
00:44:15,875 --> 00:44:18,994
Super easy to do, you love your mom, you have a
great relationship.
822
00:44:19,074 --> 00:44:23,714
Okay, now what about you try your sister who
you don't really get along with as well?
823
00:44:23,714 --> 00:44:27,474
You get there, you get to the point of being
able to do it, okay, now what about trying your
824
00:44:27,474 --> 00:44:31,570
neighbor who you've never actually talked to,
but what you have noticed about them is that
825
00:44:31,570 --> 00:44:36,690
they are of a different religious faith and
that they are of a different political party.
826
00:44:36,769 --> 00:44:40,690
They've, you know, someone who you normally
would not extend this kind of feeling to, you
827
00:44:40,690 --> 00:44:41,570
practice that.
828
00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:47,974
And with time, you may be able to strengthen
the ability to like overcome our brain's urges
829
00:44:48,454 --> 00:44:52,614
to discount the empathy we experience for
people who are different or people who we don't
830
00:44:52,614 --> 00:44:53,894
particularly like.
831
00:44:53,894 --> 00:44:59,219
And there's a study that looked at those two
tasks along with a few other tasks, and they
832
00:44:59,219 --> 00:45:04,260
found that at the end of the trial, I think it
was 90 of doing this, like daily, the people
833
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:07,860
not only experienced like greater empathy and
compassion, but they also had literally
834
00:45:07,860 --> 00:45:10,900
thickened certain parts of the brain that are
associated with empathy.
835
00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:16,295
They literally built new neural hardware to
allow them to perform these actions, and that's
836
00:45:16,295 --> 00:45:16,855
pretty powerful.
837
00:45:16,855 --> 00:45:21,335
And it also tells us that empathy is not
necessarily hard set.
838
00:45:21,335 --> 00:45:25,815
We can always change it in either direction,
you know, and and there are also experiences
839
00:45:25,815 --> 00:45:29,440
that are associated with a loss of empathy,
like going through medical school,
840
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,000
interestingly, because you are exposed to the
pain and suffering of people in hospitals every
841
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,960
day, and your brain is like this is too
painful, it's actually adaptive to sort of
842
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,075
shrink back a bit and not take on people's
emotions as much, and so it's actually been
843
00:45:43,075 --> 00:45:46,755
shown that as people go through, as students go
through medical school, their empathy declines.
844
00:45:46,755 --> 00:45:48,114
So we are flexible.
845
00:45:48,114 --> 00:45:52,755
Our empathy is shaped generally through early
life, but even in adulthood it remains
846
00:45:52,755 --> 00:45:53,315
adaptive.
847
00:45:53,315 --> 00:45:56,510
That is honestly terrifying to hear that about,
but it makes sense.
848
00:45:56,510 --> 00:45:58,349
I mean, dissociation helps.
849
00:45:58,349 --> 00:46:01,789
I write a lot and talk about how dissociation
is not a bad thing.
850
00:46:01,789 --> 00:46:02,989
Oftentimes, it can help you.
851
00:46:02,989 --> 00:46:03,869
It can be adaptive.
852
00:46:03,869 --> 00:46:07,469
But Vision Lagiani has a great loving kindness
meditation on YouTube.
853
00:46:07,469 --> 00:46:10,235
If you're looking for a specific one, it's one
that I recommend.
854
00:46:10,555 --> 00:46:15,594
Question I have for you is we have an entire
group of humans that practice empathy
855
00:46:15,594 --> 00:46:18,474
constantly, feel like, like therapists and
social workers.
856
00:46:18,474 --> 00:46:20,635
Like, I remember getting trained in IFS.
857
00:46:20,715 --> 00:46:22,795
I have internal family systems as a type of
psychotherapy.
858
00:46:22,795 --> 00:46:23,755
That's what I'm trained in.
859
00:46:23,755 --> 00:46:30,050
I I could, like, feel my brain getting more
empathetic just by having that framework.
860
00:46:30,289 --> 00:46:32,130
Is there any data on that kind of stuff?
861
00:46:32,130 --> 00:46:37,184
Or, like, being the big thing IFS considers is
curiosity, like, being curious and
862
00:46:37,184 --> 00:46:40,224
compassionate with someone else whether or not
like there's got to be a reason that they got
863
00:46:40,224 --> 00:46:42,625
to the perspective that they have, even if
they're in my out group.
864
00:46:42,785 --> 00:46:47,664
Is there any like data on that kind of stuff
for like therapists and like
865
00:46:47,664 --> 00:46:48,945
those kinds Yeah, it's interesting.
866
00:46:48,945 --> 00:46:53,099
I mean not that I'm aware of explicitly looking
at that question, but I believe it.
867
00:46:53,099 --> 00:46:54,619
I absolutely believe it to be true.
868
00:46:54,619 --> 00:46:59,500
I mean I think that the kind of person who
chooses to be a therapist from the beginning
869
00:46:59,579 --> 00:47:03,019
must be probably more empathic than the average
person, right?
870
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:07,579
Because you care about others, and that may
also be true for doctors as well, right?
871
00:47:07,805 --> 00:47:09,644
For medical, like physicians, right?
872
00:47:09,644 --> 00:47:14,125
They may lose some of their empathy in medical
training, but they probably start out wanting
873
00:47:14,125 --> 00:47:16,605
to help others or wanting to make a large
salary.
874
00:47:16,605 --> 00:47:17,644
There's also that possibility.
875
00:47:17,644 --> 00:47:23,300
Yeah, mean, IFS I will say I have been the
recipient of IFS as a patient, and that stuff
876
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:23,860
is amazing.
877
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:25,300
I I'm a big fan of IFS.
878
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:26,260
Let's go.
879
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:27,140
I love that.
880
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:27,300
Yeah.
881
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:31,140
It helps you kind of build the kinds of
connections you're describing within yourself
882
00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:32,579
with with your parts.
883
00:47:32,579 --> 00:47:32,739
So
884
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:33,300
Yeah.
885
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:33,460
Right.
886
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:33,940
Like self energy.
887
00:47:34,019 --> 00:47:35,125
Think it's so powerful.
888
00:47:35,125 --> 00:47:35,445
Yeah.
889
00:47:35,445 --> 00:47:35,684
Yeah.
890
00:47:35,684 --> 00:47:35,925
Yeah.
891
00:47:35,925 --> 00:47:37,445
We need more self energy in the world.
892
00:47:37,445 --> 00:47:38,244
That's interesting.
893
00:47:38,244 --> 00:47:41,684
Let's talk real quick about we've mentioned
this a couple times, but I wanna go all the way
894
00:47:41,684 --> 00:47:41,925
in.
895
00:47:41,925 --> 00:47:43,285
The autism versus Tylenol.
896
00:47:43,285 --> 00:47:47,684
Like, before we have to, like, land the plane
here, you talked about how there's it's fifty
897
00:47:47,684 --> 00:47:48,005
fifty.
898
00:47:48,005 --> 00:47:51,010
It either is a thing or not a thing, but, like,
we know that's not how science works.
899
00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:56,130
It's, like, supported, not supported, all this
kind of how did they get to the perspective
900
00:47:56,130 --> 00:47:58,849
that Tylenol is a cause of autism?
901
00:47:58,849 --> 00:48:02,210
And then just elucidate some of the data and
what you know.
902
00:48:02,210 --> 00:48:02,449
Yeah.
903
00:48:02,449 --> 00:48:02,690
Please.
904
00:48:03,105 --> 00:48:06,465
I I can't answer the first one because I have
absolutely no idea how they got there.
905
00:48:06,545 --> 00:48:07,344
I genuinely don't.
906
00:48:07,344 --> 00:48:09,824
And I don't even know if that's public
knowledge at this point, whether they've
907
00:48:09,824 --> 00:48:15,344
released anything, but here's the thing, and
just before I go any further, I do just for the
908
00:48:15,344 --> 00:48:19,420
listener and for both of you, want to make it
clear, like, what I'm about to say is not a
909
00:48:19,420 --> 00:48:20,539
political stance, right?
910
00:48:20,539 --> 00:48:25,420
Like I am genuinely, I try to be as apolitical
as possible and just listen to the data, and so
911
00:48:25,420 --> 00:48:28,860
basically I'm about to tell you that there's no
link between Tylenol and autism, and that's not
912
00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:34,275
me saying that's not driven by my distaste for
Donald Trump or his administration, and I think
913
00:48:34,275 --> 00:48:38,675
it's important to recognize that when you hear
someone say something like what I'm about to
914
00:48:38,675 --> 00:48:43,155
say, it's natural to think they're only saying
that because they don't like Trump, but please
915
00:48:43,155 --> 00:48:46,170
just take that out of this and just hear what
I'm gonna say.
916
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:50,329
There may be a study that was run by the
administration where they found a correlation
917
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:53,289
between Tylenol and autism prevalence.
918
00:48:53,289 --> 00:48:54,250
There may be, I don't know.
919
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:59,474
There is already data from two point five
million children showing that when you properly
920
00:48:59,474 --> 00:49:05,394
control for like genetics and like sibling
pairs, that the use of Tylenol during pregnancy
921
00:49:05,394 --> 00:49:07,155
is not associated with autism.
922
00:49:07,234 --> 00:49:13,150
So there's also the point that even if there
there is evidence, they come out they say, Hey
923
00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:16,269
look, we have a new study, you know, greater
Tylenol use is associated with higher risk of
924
00:49:16,269 --> 00:49:16,670
autism.
925
00:49:16,670 --> 00:49:22,670
Okay, well, maternal immune activation, being
sick while pregnant, is a well known documented
926
00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:23,869
risk factor for autism.
927
00:49:23,869 --> 00:49:29,934
So if there's a higher if there's a correlation
between acetaminophen use and autism, the real
928
00:49:29,934 --> 00:49:34,174
correlation might be between the mom was sick
and and them may have been higher risk of
929
00:49:34,174 --> 00:49:37,539
autism, and they happen to also be taking
acetaminophen, so there's a just that happens
930
00:49:37,539 --> 00:49:39,699
to be correlation when it's not truly
causative.
931
00:49:40,339 --> 00:49:48,260
As a mouse researcher, we want to identify how
to induce autism in mice, like, and as
932
00:49:48,260 --> 00:49:51,139
ridiculous as that sounds, if you think about
it actually makes sense, because if we want to
933
00:49:51,139 --> 00:49:55,155
study this condition in mice, which allows us
to ask different questions that we can't study
934
00:49:55,155 --> 00:50:01,635
in humans, it is to our benefit if we can find
new causes of autism by inducing them in mice.
935
00:50:01,635 --> 00:50:06,434
And there are certain drugs that exposure in
the utero in utero can increase the risk of
936
00:50:06,434 --> 00:50:09,949
autism, like an antiepileptic drug called
valproic acid.
937
00:50:09,949 --> 00:50:16,750
That's one mouse model of autism, so the pups,
the babies, are exposed to VPA, valproic acid,
938
00:50:16,750 --> 00:50:21,925
and they show a disproportionately high level
of social dysfunction when they are grown up
939
00:50:21,925 --> 00:50:26,085
and into like adolescence, there's no Tylenol
model of autism.
940
00:50:26,085 --> 00:50:30,644
No, I don't know if any scientist has ever
tested this, but I would imagine that at some
941
00:50:30,644 --> 00:50:35,589
point somewhere of the thousands of scientists
who have ever tried this, they would have tried
942
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:36,150
that, right?
943
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:37,829
Like, again, science is a business.
944
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:41,670
If you can identify things, it supports your
career, and the fact that I, as a person who
945
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:47,964
did my entire PhD research in the biological
and genetic basis of autism, have never heard
946
00:50:47,964 --> 00:50:54,204
about an association between Tylenol and autism
tells me that it's probably not happening.
947
00:50:54,204 --> 00:50:57,885
Plus the fact that there's already data on two
point five million children showing that it's
948
00:50:57,885 --> 00:50:59,085
not a risk factor.
949
00:50:59,085 --> 00:51:03,349
I don't believe it, you know, and I and I'm
really curious about what the world thinks
950
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:03,750
about this.
951
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:07,510
I actually so I coach high school lacrosse, and
we had a practice yesterday, and I heard two of
952
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:10,630
the kids talking, they were like tenth graders,
and the guy was like, You hear about Tylenol
953
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:11,670
causes autism?
954
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:13,269
And I went over, I'm like, do guys think about
that?
955
00:51:13,514 --> 00:51:16,474
And then one guy was like, Dude, that's the
stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
956
00:51:16,474 --> 00:51:20,315
And I was like, Okay, so you're a tenth grader
with obviously no medical training and you
957
00:51:20,315 --> 00:51:24,234
think it's stupid, and I keep hearing this
echoed, but it's at least reassuring that, you
958
00:51:24,234 --> 00:51:27,994
know, just because this is what I this is what
I mean, we were talking about before the
959
00:51:27,994 --> 00:51:33,059
episode started, that I worry that we are
allowing our political and not even political,
960
00:51:33,059 --> 00:51:38,179
just our in group affiliation to dominate over
our evidence guided beliefs, right?
961
00:51:38,179 --> 00:51:42,500
And so it's just concerning to me that, you
know, and it could be Joe Biden, it could be
962
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:46,394
Donald Trump, it doesn't matter, but if Donald
Trump says, Hey, Tylenol causes autism, and
963
00:51:46,394 --> 00:51:49,994
then I, someone listens to this podcast and
hears me say, Oh, there's actually no link, but
964
00:51:49,994 --> 00:51:52,875
they like Donald Trump and they trust Donald
Trump, they're probably more likely to listen
965
00:51:52,875 --> 00:51:55,035
to that and believe that Tylenol does cause
autism.
966
00:51:55,035 --> 00:51:58,875
Whereas if in the last administration if Joe
Biden had come out and said, Tylenol causes
967
00:51:58,875 --> 00:52:04,449
autism, I think a lot of more Democratic voters
would have said, Hey, I haven't seen the data,
968
00:52:04,449 --> 00:52:07,570
but there's got to be something there, right,
like they would be the same people who are
969
00:52:07,570 --> 00:52:11,409
arguing against it now would be considering it,
because we naturally tend to trust the people
970
00:52:11,409 --> 00:52:15,684
in our in group, and that's what I find
worrying about America is that, you know, we
971
00:52:15,684 --> 00:52:22,405
are we are letting our affiliations lead and
our beliefs lead over our our trust meters,
972
00:52:22,405 --> 00:52:26,324
right, like we are no longer looking for I'm
sorry not our trust meters, our truth meters,
973
00:52:26,324 --> 00:52:30,130
we are we are no longer looking for evidence,
we are simply looking for who said that.
974
00:52:30,130 --> 00:52:32,690
If I don't agree with them in general, then I
don't think it's true.
975
00:52:32,690 --> 00:52:37,489
And that's really also damaging, not just for,
like, the entire culture of The United States,
976
00:52:37,489 --> 00:52:41,489
but also for our, like, need for connection and
humanity and community.
977
00:52:41,489 --> 00:52:47,394
If you look at this from a meta perspective,
how do you deal with this concept for yourself?
978
00:52:47,474 --> 00:52:52,515
What specific things does doctor Ben do to
challenge his in group bias?
979
00:52:52,515 --> 00:53:00,280
So I try not to search for new information
through sources that may be biased.
980
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:05,239
Like the scientific literature, I know there's
a lot of people who like argue, oh like science
981
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,574
is biased, it's funded by big pharma, I do not
believe that as a, you know, work person who
982
00:53:09,574 --> 00:53:12,694
has published papers the last decade, I've
never met a researcher who has ever had their
983
00:53:12,694 --> 00:53:14,134
research funded by big pharma.
984
00:53:14,134 --> 00:53:17,974
I trust the scientific literature as unbiased,
it is just data.
985
00:53:17,974 --> 00:53:23,119
And so when I do hear someone sharing a
perspective, even if it's a person who I'm
986
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:28,000
inclined to listen to and believe because I
share a lot in common with them, I'm still
987
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:29,760
cautious about taking in information.
988
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,519
I'm not just going to automatically assume that
something is true, and I'll admit like I am
989
00:53:33,519 --> 00:53:34,400
totally not perfect.
990
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,804
I have been burned by that in the past by just
blindly accepting some information is true, but
991
00:53:38,804 --> 00:53:43,605
I'm always trying to interrogate information
and challenge my own biases, and in addition to
992
00:53:43,605 --> 00:53:49,925
that I'm also trying to offer as much grace to
people who my brain naturally wants to exclude,
993
00:53:50,489 --> 00:53:55,769
you know, like just recognizing the fact that
my brain may show less activity in these
994
00:53:55,769 --> 00:54:00,010
empathy related brain areas to a person
standing next to me on the sidewalk if I notice
995
00:54:00,010 --> 00:54:03,849
that they are wearing a chain of a religious
emblem that I don't identify with.
996
00:54:03,849 --> 00:54:09,775
Like just being aware of that allows me to like
step back from my natural dispositions and my
997
00:54:09,775 --> 00:54:13,614
instincts and realize, okay, if I wasn't aware
of that I would probably act differently
998
00:54:13,614 --> 00:54:16,815
towards this person, but I don't have to act
differently towards this person, right?
999
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:22,019
And, you know, there's so many tiny little
decisions in life that we may not even be aware
1000
00:54:22,019 --> 00:54:26,179
of, where in that moment the bus pulls up and
normally I would let the person go ahead of me,
1001
00:54:26,179 --> 00:54:29,859
but I instead I think, you know, screw that
person, don't identify with them, I'm gonna go
1002
00:54:29,859 --> 00:54:31,219
in front of them and be rude, right?
1003
00:54:31,219 --> 00:54:34,945
Like tiny little things like that that we don't
even realize are happening, but you can just as
1004
00:54:34,945 --> 00:54:37,025
easily override those impulses, right?
1005
00:54:37,025 --> 00:54:39,184
Like we are we are tribalistic animals.
1006
00:54:39,184 --> 00:54:44,619
We come from a world, an ancient world, where
it was in our best interest to protect and
1007
00:54:44,619 --> 00:54:49,260
identify with the people in our tribe, and to
sort of disengage from people in other tribes.
1008
00:54:49,260 --> 00:54:50,539
If they die, I don't care.
1009
00:54:50,539 --> 00:54:53,900
It's actually good for me if they die, but if
people in my tribe die, that's really bad for
1010
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:56,940
my survival because now I've just lost one ally
and my survival is now at risk.
1011
00:54:57,335 --> 00:55:02,375
So we are humans have been selected through
evolution to care more about people who are
1012
00:55:02,375 --> 00:55:06,694
identifying in our group, and so just simply
being aware of that I think is helpful, but you
1013
00:55:06,694 --> 00:55:07,494
can override it.
1014
00:55:07,494 --> 00:55:12,054
You can, I'm going to choose to care about this
person, I'm going to choose to empathize with
1015
00:55:12,054 --> 00:55:12,454
this person.
1016
00:55:12,860 --> 00:55:18,539
I mean, it'sit'swe have this ability called
cognitive empathy, which is the ability to put
1017
00:55:18,539 --> 00:55:21,980
yourself into the mind space of someone and
understand what they're going through.
1018
00:55:22,059 --> 00:55:26,724
There's also emotional empathy, which is when
you share their emotions, and cognitive empathy
1019
00:55:26,724 --> 00:55:29,445
can sort of be used as a bridge to emotional
empathy.
1020
00:55:29,445 --> 00:55:33,364
So if you see someone suffering because they're
very different from you and you feel nothing,
1021
00:55:33,364 --> 00:55:36,724
it's totally you're totally capable of looking
at them and saying, okay, what is this what is
1022
00:55:36,724 --> 00:55:37,605
what are they experiencing?
1023
00:55:37,605 --> 00:55:38,644
What would I experience in that?
1024
00:55:38,644 --> 00:55:40,210
Like what's what's their mind state?
1025
00:55:40,210 --> 00:55:41,170
What are they probably thinking?
1026
00:55:41,170 --> 00:55:42,289
What are they probably feeling?
1027
00:55:42,369 --> 00:55:44,369
Okay, now how would I feel if I were in their
shoes?
1028
00:55:44,369 --> 00:55:49,250
How would I feel if it wasn't this person I was
watching but if it was my spouse or my child
1029
00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:50,769
going through what they're going through?
1030
00:55:50,769 --> 00:55:52,690
Can I start to embody their emotions a bit
more?
1031
00:55:52,844 --> 00:55:55,804
And I think at any time we have this human like
override.
1032
00:55:55,804 --> 00:56:01,644
We are super complicated, sophisticated brains,
and so you know we are capable of so much more
1033
00:56:01,644 --> 00:56:06,844
than we often allow ourselves to achieve
because we just fall prey to these like ancient
1034
00:56:06,269 --> 00:56:08,670
instincts without really even noticing that
they're there.
1035
00:56:08,670 --> 00:56:12,909
And so that's also something that I wanted to,
you know, clarify in the book and and whenever
1036
00:56:12,909 --> 00:56:16,590
I have the opportunity to, so thanks for giving
me the opportunity on this podcast.
1037
00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:16,989
Yeah.
1038
00:56:16,989 --> 00:56:18,670
The you mentioned IFS.
1039
00:56:18,670 --> 00:56:21,309
Just one last question that you've been a
participant of that.
1040
00:56:21,605 --> 00:56:26,484
Something that I see in people my my clients
that I work with inside of their relationships
1041
00:56:26,484 --> 00:56:29,125
is that parts language helps them with this a
lot.
1042
00:56:29,125 --> 00:56:31,844
And so instead of I work in the relationship
dating space a lot.
1043
00:56:31,844 --> 00:56:36,404
And so it's like, my partner is this or is mad
at me or, like, yelled at me.
1044
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:42,559
Shifting to a part of them or a part of this
other person is behaving this way, but not it's
1045
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:44,000
not who they are as a human.
1046
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:49,440
And the connection between us is we we share
humanity, but a part of them is acting
1047
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:49,760
differently.
1048
00:56:50,045 --> 00:56:54,684
Has that helped you at all, or have you is that
do do you think about that when you're trying
1049
00:56:54,684 --> 00:56:55,644
to be more empathetic?
1050
00:56:55,644 --> 00:56:55,965
Yeah.
1051
00:56:55,965 --> 00:56:56,445
Totally.
1052
00:56:56,445 --> 00:57:02,285
I mean, think what we've gotten really good at
lately, which is a bad thing, is if we see
1053
00:57:02,285 --> 00:57:07,440
someone do something or say something that we
disagree with, we completely write them off.
1054
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,280
And that happens a lot on social media, right?
1055
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,320
Where it's like you follow someone for a year
and then you see them tweet something and
1056
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:13,920
you're like, oh my god, I completely disagree.
1057
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:14,719
Unfollowed, right?
1058
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,144
Or you might even comment and be like, screw
you know, I thought you were a nice person but
1059
00:57:18,144 --> 00:57:19,425
I don't trust you anymore, right?
1060
00:57:19,425 --> 00:57:25,425
We do this where we where we generalize a
belief or something we observe to represent the
1061
00:57:25,425 --> 00:57:27,824
entirety of that person, and that's totally not
true, you know?
1062
00:57:27,824 --> 00:57:31,289
And if you were to sit down and have a long
conversation with that person, there's probably
1063
00:57:31,289 --> 00:57:35,130
a lot you would have in common, and then that
one idea you would not have in common, and
1064
00:57:35,130 --> 00:57:36,890
that's entirely okay, right?
1065
00:57:36,890 --> 00:57:43,369
I think we've we've gotten so, like, polarized
that we just exclude ideas that we don't agree
1066
00:57:43,369 --> 00:57:46,755
with, and that's not a good thing, you know,
because if you think about it, I guarantee that
1067
00:57:46,755 --> 00:57:50,674
some of the people who are closest to you in
your life don't agree with you on everything,
1068
00:57:50,674 --> 00:57:50,994
right?
1069
00:57:50,994 --> 00:57:54,594
I'm sure you might disagree with your parents
or your siblings or your spouse or some of your
1070
00:57:54,594 --> 00:57:56,275
closest friends on certain things.
1071
00:57:56,275 --> 00:58:00,674
I know that me and some of my best friends in
this world totally disagree politically.
1072
00:58:00,969 --> 00:58:01,690
That's fine.
1073
00:58:01,690 --> 00:58:02,650
I don't care, right?
1074
00:58:02,650 --> 00:58:07,369
And I think that actually my brain is probably
better for it, for having allowed them into my
1075
00:58:07,369 --> 00:58:13,050
life, because it's showing me, it's showing my
brain that there's less of a threat out there,
1076
00:58:13,050 --> 00:58:13,369
right?
1077
00:58:13,369 --> 00:58:16,090
People can disagree with you and still be
allies.
1078
00:58:16,355 --> 00:58:21,394
And I think when we when we exclude that from
our lives and we say anybody who disagrees in
1079
00:58:21,394 --> 00:58:25,954
any capacity is an enemy, suddenly we have a
lot of enemies, and that's not what the brain
1080
00:58:25,954 --> 00:58:26,275
wants.
1081
00:58:26,275 --> 00:58:30,914
The brain wants to be safe and surrounded by
community, and and, you know, lo and behold,
1082
00:58:31,074 --> 00:58:35,440
increased being more isolated is associated
with higher rates of suicide and depression and
1083
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:36,079
anxiety.
1084
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:40,159
Perhaps it's because our ancient instincts are
to be supported by our communities, and when we
1085
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:42,079
don't have them, we start to get concerned.
1086
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:45,039
And you know, I just I try to do the opposite
of that, you know.
1087
00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:45,519
I love that.
1088
00:58:45,644 --> 00:58:47,804
I think it's different too when you walk
outside too.
1089
00:58:47,804 --> 00:58:53,244
You walk like, I walk into a coffee shop and
most people say hi, most people are kind, most
1090
00:58:53,244 --> 00:58:57,244
people are not like, oh, you freaking white
dude, I hate you type of thing.
1091
00:58:57,244 --> 00:59:03,619
You know, like, that's the other thing that the
social media online stuff messes with people's
1092
00:59:03,619 --> 00:59:05,300
brains, I feel like Yeah.
1093
00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:06,099
In a way.
1094
00:59:06,420 --> 00:59:09,300
Social media makes it feel like you're gonna
walk into the coffee shop, and everyone's gonna
1095
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:11,139
be arguing about Charlie Kirk shooting.
1096
00:59:11,139 --> 00:59:11,380
Right?
1097
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:13,059
Like, that's not how real life is.
1098
00:59:13,059 --> 00:59:13,219
Right?
1099
00:59:13,505 --> 00:59:18,224
And it's probably because we are disengaging
our empathy, and so we don't give a shit about
1100
00:59:18,224 --> 00:59:19,184
what the other person's feeling.
1101
00:59:19,184 --> 00:59:23,105
And we say things that we would never say in
real life because we're completely disengaged
1102
00:59:23,105 --> 00:59:23,824
emotionally.
1103
00:59:23,824 --> 00:59:25,265
But the world's actually pretty nice.
1104
00:59:25,265 --> 00:59:25,505
You know?
1105
00:59:25,505 --> 00:59:28,864
When you go out there, people are actually
pretty kind, and and the interactions you have
1106
00:59:29,090 --> 00:59:33,409
can be very satisfying, and I bet when you do
go into the coffee shop and you pass someone or
1107
00:59:33,409 --> 00:59:36,769
you're walking by them on the sidewalk and you
say, hey good morning, and they say good
1108
00:59:36,769 --> 00:59:39,090
morning, you probably feel really good.
1109
00:59:39,090 --> 00:59:43,855
You probably feel very safe and very reassured,
and I think that's kind of what we're missing
1110
00:59:43,855 --> 00:59:48,335
out on a lot, because we're receding away from
a world that we fear doesn't support us
1111
00:59:48,335 --> 00:59:48,974
anymore.
1112
00:59:49,054 --> 00:59:53,855
And by simply making a small effort to
reconnect with your community, think you could
1113
00:59:53,855 --> 00:59:59,099
notice dramatic effects in your well-being, if
only for the fact that it's proven that social
1114
00:59:59,099 --> 01:00:00,460
interactions make us feel better.
1115
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,739
Dude, couldn't agree more.
1116
01:00:01,739 --> 01:00:04,940
I'm the worst person to be in an elevator with
because I'm the dude that's like, how's your
1117
01:00:04,940 --> 01:00:05,339
day?
1118
01:00:05,339 --> 01:00:05,980
It was alright.
1119
01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:06,859
Oh, just alright?
1120
01:00:06,859 --> 01:00:12,380
And and I'm getting three or four questions
deep in 11 floors from Ground Floor.
1121
01:00:12,380 --> 01:00:13,579
You're like, let's do some IFS.
1122
01:00:14,005 --> 01:00:18,405
Dude, I I mean, I wanna talk about it because
and you can help me understand this.
1123
01:00:18,405 --> 01:00:23,284
Is it not give them like, when you ask a
question like that, does it not give them a
1124
01:00:23,284 --> 01:00:26,324
boost in that beautiful chemical cocktail Yeah.
1125
01:00:26,405 --> 01:00:28,804
For the rest of the day when you do that for
someone else?
1126
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,359
I mean, I don't know about the rest of the day,
but like there's a bunch of studies showing
1127
01:00:32,359 --> 01:00:35,559
that people feel better right after they
interact.
1128
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:40,679
And it doesn't matter if you, you know, you
could be tracking someone's behavior for a
1129
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:44,954
couple days and you notice that after they have
organic interactions, like a, you know, they
1130
01:00:44,954 --> 01:00:48,155
happen to be riding in the elevator with
someone, they will say, Oh, I feel a lot better
1131
01:00:48,155 --> 01:00:49,195
right now, for some reason.
1132
01:00:49,275 --> 01:00:52,954
Or if you tell them, Hey, go interact with that
person over there on the train, they will feel
1133
01:00:52,954 --> 01:00:53,835
better afterwards.
1134
01:00:53,835 --> 01:00:58,880
And so not only to your point, not only does
the person who started the conversation feel
1135
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,199
better, but the person who was the recipient.
1136
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:05,039
So like there's literally studies, this is
Professor Nicholas Epley who I just love his
1137
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:10,320
research because he has people do this in real
life settings like trains and buses and taxis,
1138
01:01:10,614 --> 01:01:15,335
and he'll have them start a conversation with a
stranger and, by the way, they almost always
1139
01:01:15,335 --> 01:01:17,255
underestimate the impact of it.
1140
01:01:17,255 --> 01:01:20,135
They say this is really probably not gonna
really do anything, I'm not gonna feel much
1141
01:01:20,135 --> 01:01:23,974
better after, they feel great afterwards, and
then when the researchers go up to the stranger
1142
01:01:23,974 --> 01:01:26,559
and say hey how was that, they're like That was
actually really nice.
1143
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:29,599
I really enjoyed the experience of this, my
commute to work.
1144
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:31,760
Way better having this conversation with a
stranger.
1145
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,599
So yeah, you're not just benefiting yourself,
you're also like spreading the wealth to
1146
01:01:35,599 --> 01:01:37,039
whoever you choose to engage.
1147
01:01:37,039 --> 01:01:38,159
Yeah, it's beautiful.
1148
01:01:38,324 --> 01:01:41,125
I've got a bro science version of this as well
because Doctor.
1149
01:01:41,125 --> 01:01:45,925
Zach, we've talked about him a couple times, he
has a consumer app called SIX that uses
1150
01:01:45,925 --> 01:01:47,125
biometric devices.
1151
01:01:47,445 --> 01:01:52,565
He's done 21,000 blood draws to measure blood
oxytocin after social interaction and stuff.
1152
01:01:52,869 --> 01:01:58,150
And the app tracks your key moment using
biometric key moments using biometric, like,
1153
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:58,630
data.
1154
01:01:58,630 --> 01:02:03,589
And something I noticed was when I went from
normal weightlifting to now doing CrossFit in a
1155
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:09,144
social setting, I get so many key moments when
I'm in the when I'm at CrossFit because it
1156
01:02:09,144 --> 01:02:11,945
tracks my time or it tracks the time you get in
and what you're doing.
1157
01:02:12,025 --> 01:02:13,224
And it's just like, woah.
1158
01:02:13,224 --> 01:02:18,425
Social interaction is so important for, like,
oxytocin and all this really cool stuff that,
1159
01:02:18,425 --> 01:02:20,579
like, is being released real time.
1160
01:02:20,660 --> 01:02:22,260
So kind of pro science.
1161
01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:27,300
The six app blows my mind too because I think
they identified some some heart marker.
1162
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:32,500
It was like it's a cardiac marker and some
change in pulse rate or whatever it is that is
1163
01:02:32,694 --> 01:02:37,094
a secondary indicator of of oxytocin, and
that's how it's able it can be done through,
1164
01:02:37,094 --> 01:02:40,135
like, a a chest strap, right, or a wristband or
1165
01:02:40,375 --> 01:02:40,614
Yeah.
1166
01:02:40,614 --> 01:02:40,934
Whoop.
1167
01:02:40,934 --> 01:02:41,255
Anything.
1168
01:02:41,255 --> 01:02:43,174
Garmin, Whoop, Apple Watch, Fitbit, any of
them.
1169
01:02:43,174 --> 01:02:46,135
Like, Chloe and I did content for them for for
years.
1170
01:02:46,135 --> 01:02:47,174
Like, I love them.
1171
01:02:47,429 --> 01:02:47,589
Like
1172
01:02:47,750 --> 01:02:47,989
Yeah.
1173
01:02:47,989 --> 01:02:48,949
That's awesome.
1174
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:49,429
Yeah.
1175
01:02:49,429 --> 01:02:49,829
They're great.
1176
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:50,309
I love that.
1177
01:02:50,309 --> 01:02:51,349
So I digress.
1178
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:51,589
Alright.
1179
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:52,789
Let's bring this thing in for a landing.
1180
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:56,230
Last question we ask everybody is what's a
question that you wish you got asked more
1181
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:56,550
often?
1182
01:02:56,550 --> 01:02:58,789
I mean, this is kinda sad, but you already hit
it.
1183
01:02:58,789 --> 01:03:01,135
I think that question of how are you doing in
the beginning, right?
1184
01:03:01,135 --> 01:03:02,894
Like what a nice question.
1185
01:03:02,894 --> 01:03:07,214
And yeah, I'm not getting asked that much these
days, but I appreciate it.
1186
01:03:07,214 --> 01:03:11,135
I mean, I think gosh, there's so many ways I
could answer this question in reality, and I
1187
01:03:11,135 --> 01:03:12,494
really don't know which to choose.
1188
01:03:12,494 --> 01:03:14,574
I mean, I think I'll settle on my first answer.
1189
01:03:14,574 --> 01:03:18,859
I appreciate that you guys genuinely asked me
how I'm doing, and I think that that in itself
1190
01:03:18,859 --> 01:03:23,900
is a great model of like human interaction,
right?
1191
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:27,260
I think we do so much of this, you know, I
don't know, how's your day?
1192
01:03:27,420 --> 01:03:28,859
Whatever small talk stuff, right?
1193
01:03:28,859 --> 01:03:31,775
But asking someone like in a genuine way, How
are you?
1194
01:03:31,775 --> 01:03:32,735
How have you been?
1195
01:03:32,815 --> 01:03:33,695
What's going on?
1196
01:03:33,695 --> 01:03:34,494
What's on your mind?
1197
01:03:34,494 --> 01:03:42,735
Immediately leaps straight past all the small
talk into depth and yeah, and I was immediately
1198
01:03:42,735 --> 01:03:46,450
comfortable giving you a genuine answer, so you
know, I I appreciate that.
1199
01:03:46,450 --> 01:03:50,690
And amid all the podcasts I do, this is the
only time I've ever been asked that on a
1200
01:03:50,690 --> 01:03:51,250
podcast.
1201
01:03:51,250 --> 01:03:54,930
So even beforehand, like, before the recording
starts, like, one's ever asking that.
1202
01:03:54,930 --> 01:03:55,250
Right?
1203
01:03:55,250 --> 01:03:56,210
So thank you.
1204
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:57,329
I genuinely appreciate it.
1205
01:03:57,329 --> 01:03:57,970
Anytime.
1206
01:03:58,050 --> 01:04:04,055
It's interesting, and maybe you can comment on
this, that we hear this response on the podcast
1207
01:04:04,695 --> 01:04:07,094
99% of the time from men.
1208
01:04:07,094 --> 01:04:07,414
Mhmm.
1209
01:04:07,414 --> 01:04:10,614
Women have all different things and stuff like
that.
1210
01:04:10,614 --> 01:04:12,375
It and this totally anecdotal.
1211
01:04:12,375 --> 01:04:14,215
We've only had you know, it said, like, I get
it.
1212
01:04:14,215 --> 01:04:15,974
I get this a small sample of all the stuff.
1213
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:17,789
However, it's it's interesting.
1214
01:04:17,789 --> 01:04:19,309
Guys, say this.
1215
01:04:19,309 --> 01:04:23,630
I want people to ask me how I'm doing, actually
care, and actually go, like, more in-depth.
1216
01:04:23,710 --> 01:04:27,789
Like, I wonder if we asked your wife, for
example, if people were asking her how she's
1217
01:04:27,789 --> 01:04:29,950
doing and if she would she say the same thing?
1218
01:04:30,030 --> 01:04:30,430
You know?
1219
01:04:30,430 --> 01:04:34,454
Like, you have any thoughts on that, or is
there any research or anything around that that
1220
01:04:34,454 --> 01:04:35,014
you know about?
1221
01:04:35,014 --> 01:04:35,815
No, I don't know.
1222
01:04:35,815 --> 01:04:38,215
I mean, it's an interesting anecdote.
1223
01:04:38,695 --> 01:04:42,215
I am a guy, I can understand and relate to what
you're saying for sure.
1224
01:04:42,295 --> 01:04:42,855
We do.
1225
01:04:43,269 --> 01:04:47,910
You know, think in my particular case there's
also the added context that my wife is eight
1226
01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:51,110
and a half months pregnant, and so whenever
people see me they're like, How's Bella?
1227
01:04:51,110 --> 01:04:51,430
Right?
1228
01:04:51,430 --> 01:04:57,110
And to be obviously to be sure, she has the
hard part of the pregnancy, right?
1229
01:04:57,110 --> 01:05:01,295
Like she is going through what I am not going
through, but yeah I mean you know I think it's
1230
01:05:01,295 --> 01:05:05,855
just funny, it's such a unique circumstance as
we talked about at the beginning that this huge
1231
01:05:05,855 --> 01:05:11,054
personal family moment is happening at the
exact same time as arguably the most busy and
1232
01:05:11,054 --> 01:05:15,570
intense sector section of my career, and you
know this book launch is like such a
1233
01:05:15,570 --> 01:05:20,050
significant milestone and something that like
it's important that it goes well for me and you
1234
01:05:20,050 --> 01:05:23,650
know just for the sake of my career and my life
and and also my family, right?
1235
01:05:23,650 --> 01:05:28,184
There's there's a lot hanging on it, and so
yeah, like I am I I don't know.
1236
01:05:28,184 --> 01:05:31,384
I'm facing unique challenges of the the synergy
of these things.
1237
01:05:31,384 --> 01:05:32,025
I don't know.
1238
01:05:32,025 --> 01:05:36,424
It's interesting to hear that other men have
said the same thing because, I don't know, I'm
1239
01:05:36,424 --> 01:05:40,750
cautious about making hypotheses here, but it's
definitely thought provoking.
1240
01:05:40,750 --> 01:05:41,230
It is.
1241
01:05:41,230 --> 01:05:42,109
It is indeed.
1242
01:05:42,190 --> 01:05:42,510
Alright.
1243
01:05:42,670 --> 01:05:45,150
Let the people know a little bit about, where
they can find you.
1244
01:05:45,150 --> 01:05:47,069
I think most people know where they can find
you.
1245
01:05:47,069 --> 01:05:50,029
But, and then talk a a little bit about the
book, how people can get it.
1246
01:05:50,029 --> 01:05:50,909
Like, I'm excited to read it.
1247
01:05:50,909 --> 01:05:51,630
I can't wait to get it.
1248
01:05:51,630 --> 01:05:53,515
But talk a little bit about that.
1249
01:05:53,515 --> 01:05:53,914
Yeah.
1250
01:05:53,914 --> 01:05:54,155
Yeah.
1251
01:05:54,155 --> 01:05:59,034
Well, so my name is you can find me through my
name, Ben Rhine, r e I n.
1252
01:05:59,034 --> 01:06:00,795
On social media, I'm doctor Ben Rhine.
1253
01:06:00,795 --> 01:06:02,394
My website is benrhine.com.
1254
01:06:02,394 --> 01:06:06,474
If you have any if you wanna read my scientific
papers, if you wanna contact me, that's a good
1255
01:06:06,474 --> 01:06:07,859
place to go straight to the website.
1256
01:06:07,859 --> 01:06:12,179
But I do also post short form videos on on
social media about neuroscience and so that's
1257
01:06:12,179 --> 01:06:14,339
on like Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and
all that.
1258
01:06:14,420 --> 01:06:18,739
The book is called Why Brains Need Friends and
it comes out October 14 and it can be found
1259
01:06:18,739 --> 01:06:19,619
basically anywhere.
1260
01:06:19,619 --> 01:06:23,924
If it if it if right now I know don't when this
episode's coming out, but if right now is
1261
01:06:23,924 --> 01:06:28,324
before October 14, is available for pre order,
which means it'll just show up at your door on
1262
01:06:28,324 --> 01:06:32,885
October 14, but yeah, I mean, you know, the
book is the whole purpose of the book is to
1263
01:06:32,885 --> 01:06:35,525
answer the title question, Why do brains need
friends?
1264
01:06:35,525 --> 01:06:37,530
You know, what does socializing do for us?
1265
01:06:37,530 --> 01:06:40,970
What does isolation, how does it act against us
biologically?
1266
01:06:40,970 --> 01:06:44,970
Like what's actually happening when you connect
with someone and when you fail to prioritize
1267
01:06:44,970 --> 01:06:45,610
connection?
1268
01:06:45,769 --> 01:06:49,130
I address some of these like core brain flaws.
1269
01:06:49,244 --> 01:06:53,405
We have a lot of flaws built into our brains in
terms of how we connect and that hold us back
1270
01:06:53,405 --> 01:06:57,325
from connection, so some of the things that we
talked about here of like just recognizing that
1271
01:06:57,325 --> 01:06:58,765
these things exist can help you.
1272
01:06:58,845 --> 01:07:02,605
And then that's all like kind of part one of
the book, and then part two is like taking this
1273
01:07:02,605 --> 01:07:05,030
fundamental knowledge and applying it in the
modern world.
1274
01:07:05,030 --> 01:07:08,869
So there's a chapter on like virtual versus in
person interactions, there's a chapter on
1275
01:07:08,869 --> 01:07:13,670
likability, there's a chapter on how various
drugs that we take regularly influence the
1276
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:19,109
social brain in our interactions, there's a
chapter on dogs and how they what they do for
1277
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:24,125
the brain, so and how they can be valuable
members of your life in terms of like feeding
1278
01:07:24,125 --> 01:07:25,885
your brain social nourishment.
1279
01:07:25,965 --> 01:07:30,125
So there's a lot to it, and it's it's basically
like, again, me taking everything I ever
1280
01:07:30,125 --> 01:07:33,340
learned in my academic career as a
neuroscientist that I thought the average
1281
01:07:33,340 --> 01:07:37,420
person would be better off knowing and smashing
it all together into one book.
1282
01:07:37,500 --> 01:07:40,619
And so I'm, you know, I mean I'm in this weird
stage right now where the book's not out and I
1283
01:07:40,619 --> 01:07:44,059
don't know what people think about it, but the
few people who have read it have said really,
1284
01:07:44,059 --> 01:07:48,885
really nice things, so I'm just really excited
to, like, get past this this purgatory I'm in
1285
01:07:48,885 --> 01:07:52,405
of waiting for it to happen and waiting for it
to come out and just share it with the world.
1286
01:07:52,405 --> 01:07:57,445
And I really genuinely, more than anything, I
hope that it inspires people to reconnect with
1287
01:07:57,445 --> 01:08:02,750
others and that it might heal just a little bit
of this divide that we're facing because that
1288
01:08:02,750 --> 01:08:07,789
truly is my my deeper motivation is I'm I'm
worried about especially America.
1289
01:08:07,789 --> 01:08:11,949
So maybe it'll do a little bit to inject some
glue back into our society.
1290
01:08:11,949 --> 01:08:13,150
Gonna be at a better time.
1291
01:08:13,150 --> 01:08:15,789
I'm excite I'm pretty sure I I got signed up to
get an early copy too.
1292
01:08:15,789 --> 01:08:16,109
So, like
1293
01:08:16,189 --> 01:08:16,430
You will?
1294
01:08:16,965 --> 01:08:17,604
Very I
1295
01:08:17,925 --> 01:08:19,604
cannot wait to read it.
1296
01:08:19,604 --> 01:08:20,324
I love reading.
1297
01:08:20,324 --> 01:08:23,204
I'm a voracious reader, so I'm really pumped
for that.
1298
01:08:23,204 --> 01:08:23,524
Cool.
1299
01:08:23,524 --> 01:08:25,045
Well, thank you so much for hopping on with us.
1300
01:08:25,045 --> 01:08:27,604
Any last thoughts or anything else you wanna
leave us with or No.
1301
01:08:28,164 --> 01:08:29,284
I I don't think so.
1302
01:08:29,284 --> 01:08:35,310
I mean, I just appreciate this conversation and
and the ability to express freely and, you
1303
01:08:35,310 --> 01:08:36,510
know, it's the Internet.
1304
01:08:36,590 --> 01:08:41,229
Hopefully, I haven't offended anybody with my
stances here, you know, my opinions, but I
1305
01:08:41,229 --> 01:08:41,550
don't know.
1306
01:08:41,550 --> 01:08:44,305
I guess it is what it is and that's what I
believe, so there it is.
1307
01:08:44,305 --> 01:08:47,664
Try to challenge your in group bias if if
you're feeling that way at the current moment,
1308
01:08:47,664 --> 01:08:48,225
everyone.
1309
01:08:48,305 --> 01:08:50,545
I still love you, so it's it's all good,
brother.
1310
01:08:50,545 --> 01:08:51,024
Thank you.
1311
01:08:51,024 --> 01:08:53,024
Thank you, thank you everyone for hopping on.
1312
01:08:53,024 --> 01:08:55,024
Like, this has been an awesome episode.
1313
01:08:55,024 --> 01:08:59,139
If you like this no no BS approach to wellness,
would I suggest you hit the subscribe button so
1314
01:08:59,139 --> 01:09:00,099
you never miss an episode.
1315
01:09:00,099 --> 01:09:03,460
And if there's an expert you want us to talk to
next, hit us up on Instagram or hit us up on
1316
01:09:03,460 --> 01:09:03,859
YouTube.
1317
01:09:04,020 --> 01:09:05,059
We'd love to hear from you.
1318
01:09:05,059 --> 01:09:06,500
See you next time on Decision Lab.
1319
01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:06,899
Peace.
1320
01:09:06,899 --> 01:09:07,380
Bye, everyone.
