WEBVTT
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International education.
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The classrooms, the staff rooms, the lives built far from home.
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This is the Common Room.
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I'm Joshua Sussex.
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Let's talk.
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Johnny has been coaching sports since he was 15 years old.
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Thirteen years ago, he moved to Vietnam and he has spent every one of them in education, though almost none of it in a classroom.
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Eight of those years were with Child Fund Rugby, taking a life skills program across Asia Pacific, using rugby to teach children the things that don't fit neatly onto a timetable.
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Gender equity, financial literacy, how to talk about domestic violence, just being some of them.
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He built Divey at Rugby.
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He has spent a decade working on safeguarding in places where there is no safeguarding system to work with, and now trains lawyers, NGOs, and school leaders in how to actually work across cultures.
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Which, if you ever sat in a meeting where everybody was perfectly polite and nothing whatsoever was agreed, you will know how hard that is.
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Welcome, Johnny.
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Thanks very much, Sheffield.
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Thanks for having me.
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Delighted to be here.
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So, first of all, straight into it, you started coaching at 15 when most people that age are being coached and not even considering coaching at that point.
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What made you make that transition?
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I was a big rugby player when I was five years old, all the way through to now, still actually.
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And my dad was also big on education, big on rugby, and he coached my older brother all the way till he was 18 years old, and then he coached my team as well, all the way through till we were under 18 or 18 years old.
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And so when I was about 15, it made sense for me to also get into coaching in the in the local kind of community.
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So I did a couple of badges with our local council and just started coaching kids in schools all around Lanarkshire as a bit of a part-time job.
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And yeah, so I wasn't coaching lawyers at that point for sure, but I was coaching kids on how to play how to play rugby, and I've just kept that with me ever since, you know.
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So that theme has been consistent the whole way through my life.
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I was then in unique studying literature at that point.
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So you're back home, you've completed that degree, you you've been sports coaching on the side, you've gone around the community, you've built up a you've put experience and probably a repertoire of how to coach and what to coach and age ranges, and then you've then taken those experiences to Vietnam.
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Before we get to Vietnam, the first question is why Vietnam?
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Part of the answer is that I wanted to I wanted to go as far away from where I was that I could.
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I was very influenced by romantic writers.
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So at the time I was reading Jack Kerouac on the road, and I just loved a sense of adventure and and exploration and all this kind of stuff.
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And so I felt like Scotland's not very exotic at all.
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And so I wanted to go somewhere as far away from Scotland as I could, as as different as I could from what I what I know, the culture I come from, and all that kind of stuff.
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And then I had a choice between China, actually.
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China, Vietnam, Thailand, and Poland.
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And Poland was pretty close in terms of geography and it's European.
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Thailand I didn't really fancy at the time, China didn't really fancy at the time, and I didn't know anything about Vietnam at all.
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So I just chose Vietnam as well.
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Wow.
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So you literally just went for it and thought, right, I don't I know nothing about this place, I'll give it a go and see what happens.
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And what what are we now?
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What what what is it how many years are we in now to Vietnam?
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Yesterday was my 13-year anniversary.
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And and so fast forward a little bit to to more so where you are in recent years and and the work that you're doing with the with the rugby.
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Obviously, you mentioned the countries that you visited, you've worked at, you've promoted rugby, and the young people that you've worked with as well.
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I mean, you know, the the transition makes perfect sense given given your your background, where you come from.
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Just talk a little bit about the challenges that you faced of trying to implement a sport that is not traditionally there in rugby, the grassroots isn't there, and also the government side of support that is just not there for you.
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How have you built that and what have you done to get over those challenges?
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Yeah, good good question.
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The biggest obvious challenge is that rugby is just not a popular sport in Vienna.
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It's just not nobody really knows about it.
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They certainly didn't know about it ten years ago, and so therefore nobody plays it, or it's a challenge to get them into the game, right?
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And some of the reasons behind that are that what team sports aren't very popular in uh in Vietnam.
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I was told by uh by someone in government many years ago that Vietnam does not play team sports, only individual sports, which I th I found fascinating for a collectivist society.
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And but also things like being scared of the sun, the heat, and injury as well is a massive thing.
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So uh especially when we're working in rural areas in Vietnam, most of the the young coaches that we used to work with on the the previous program were farmers, right?
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So they're subsistence farmers, which means if they have an injury, they don't get paid, they they can't work the farm, they can't they can't get money, right?
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So so that's a real challenge, that's a legit concern, right?
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But interestingly, I think now, and one of the reasons why I kind of decided to really go all in on trying to build that rugby and kind of grow the sport in Vietnam is that there's this sense of momentum that's we've never had before in the 13 years that I've been here.
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Almost everything is kind of coming together at the same time to align that that creates this momentum of we can actually do something here.
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And that's why I'm really confident that we can actually affect change.
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Whereas I maybe I wouldn't have been that confident even five years ago or even 10 years ago.
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And that comes from both the kind of grassroots clubs, social society that we have, but also from the government as well.
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The government is in this uh Vienna is in this really interesting kind of transformation 2.0 phase with a hundred-year plan.
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Really revamp and really like drive on the society.
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And I think two things are also really interesting for me in the role that that I'm in.
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One is a big emphasis on niche and new sports with the sport authority.
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So we've been we've had a really good relationship with the sport authority over the last two years.
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They've supported things that we're doing, they've approved us to run a national team, which I think is just unheard of, especially in rugby has never happened before.
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Um, and that's amazing.
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That would never have happened five years ago.
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At the same time, I think as well, there's a huge gap in social and emotional competencies in children as well.
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And so the Ministry of Education are aware of that, they recognize that, and they're trying to work on how do they influence or how do they kind of mainstream, I guess, social and emotional learning competencies into education in the formal education system.
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Where I come at that from is actually, I think that's probably best done.
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I would argue, I'm biased.
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I would say it's probably best done in a non-formal education environment rather than the teachers delivering that in the context that we're in.
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I think teachers in Vietnam have a long way to go to be trained and and to be capable of delivering social emotional learning within a classroom environment.
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And lots of different pressures that they have to contend with, you know.
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And so all these different things are coming together along with the society now, has an enormous uh interest in health and wellness as well.
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So again, you have these three or four huge kind of elements, huge factors coming together, which means that we are getting lots of interest in what we're doing.
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Parents do want to bring their kid to try this new sport.
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The government is willing to support us to run this team sport and this national team.
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Um and we are getting interest from from adults as well, just to become a member, to be a part of the the group, and also to be able to in investor support the work that we do with children in rural areas where it is life skills through through rugby, you know.
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So um it's it's a super challenging thing because it's a lot of what I'm doing is like a federation model, it's not a business model, you know, so there's not there's no money in it.
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But for me, it's important that we build the entire system at the same time, because without one, we don't have the other, right?
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If I ask the the government to approve a federation, but we have no grassroots and we have no national team, it makes it really hard to sell that, right?
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Whereas if I have grassroots, if we have commercial operations, if we have a player pathway and we have a proven track record of education for coaches and referees and all these kind of things, then it becomes a case of, well, if you're already doing it, we might as well just carry on, right?
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And and I think as well from the government side, the the the sport authority anyway, they're just really interested in in uh in success, right?
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In in elite level success.
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And I think within one or two years we'll be quite competitive at the ASEAN level.
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My role now is essentially kind of change management and facilitating different stakeholders to come together and align on this vision together because when we do that, we can we can be a really strong force for development and pathway progression, you know.
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But when we're I guess just like in an office where you've got departments kind of fighting each other and everyone has their own priorities or their own egos involved, it's it's harder to to kind of work towards the same goal, you know.
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So yeah, it's a big project, a really big project.
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But I really enjoyed it, you know?
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It's fascinating, it's absolutely brilliant.
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And I want to come into exactly what it is, why it happens, and where it happens.
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But before we do that, just just as a and without trying to sound like uh I'm encouraging you to sell the it's not a selling pitch.
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But what does a parent who has no knowledge, a Vietnamese parent who has no knowledge of rugby, has absolutely no awareness of the benefits of rugby?
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What are the main sort of three to five reasons as to why?
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Rugby is the the best team sport in the world.
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So if you're a young kid and you play rugby from a young age, you will learn really quickly how to navigate conflict, how to resolve problems, how to get on with people from different backgrounds, and how to essentially work together and collaborate.
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Um because in rugby you literally need the full team to work together to score points.
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Whereas other sports, maybe you have one really good player that can they can win the game for you today.
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Rump B, you don't really have that.
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So lots of social and emotional skills, which kids will get residually, even just from participating in in the game.
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Also, a really big one is health and fitness too.
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So playing in a team sport or any sport, regular physical activity, uh, I think there's an incredible stat of like between 70 to 90 percent, don't quote me on that, of children in Vietnam do not get their required amount of movement on a weekly basis in Vietnam.
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That's a huge problem for for kids in terms of their health, even their mental health as well.
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So by participating in rugby, you get to run it round, stay fit mentally and and physically.
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And a third one I say is friends, you get to make loads of friends.
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Absolutely loads of friends.
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So not only do you stay fit, not only do you learn how to work in a team, you get to have loads of fun with your with your friends as as well.
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And then I think the the other thing as well is that at the parent level, rugby clubs are a great place for community.
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And community is a kind of buzzword these days for a lot of brands and a lot of wellness clubs and things like that.
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But when you're a part of a team, you have the same identity as somebody else in the same team as you, and that automatically brings you into that community, and you can find loads of help, support, and network where you where you might need it, and which you might not have been able to access anywhere else in your society or in your community.
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So it's a great place for for community.
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And I think another really interesting one I would add in for where we are in Vietnam is you would have the chance to potentially represent Vietnam very, very quickly in the in the future.
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And Vietnam's a very proud, patriotic uh country.
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And I think that that's that's a huge pool for for people to play for your country and represent your country on the on the international stage.
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Brilliant, exciting, man.
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I'm really excited.
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I mean, yeah, brilliant.
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Love to get into that cultural part.
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So let's get into let's get into what you do you're doing the work you do now with and also the work you're doing with what is the work you're doing on a more day-to-day basis now in that cultural space and trying to bridge cultures between the Western, Eastern, uh, Asian cultures.
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What is it you're doing day-to-day?
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Yeah, so I'll do a series of kind of workshops with teams, essentially.
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Work with a few international schools, private schools in Hanoi, and a couple of corporates, legal and tech and stuff like that.
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The overarching theme of what I do is help them to understand what the what the gaps are, what the problems are that they can't quite identify them themselves, and then help them with some frameworks to to be able to overcome those those problems, right?
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So it's usually the same themes that that come up in every team, every sector, every kind of industry.
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And it's usually just about how do you collaborate with each other a little bit better.
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That's that's really what it kind of boils down to.
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How do you collaborate a little bit better?
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Is it communication?
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Is it frameworks that you need to use?
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Is it I guess your kind of tools and platforms that you use to track your work and things like that?
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It's really how do you collaborate?
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And a lot of teams are really good with that kind of stuff, and a lot of teams just they just don't know how to do something that they don't know, right?
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You don't know what you don't know.
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What's been some of the biggest differences you've noticed during that journey, both yourself and the many years you've been in Vietnam, but also in that line of work and meeting these people, of seeing the difference of approaches when they when they're trying to collaborate.
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What's been the few that stand out and you think that is so far removed from what is needed in this environment to succeed?
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I think the the biggest thing for me, where people tend to get this stuff right, is when they're curious.
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So that means if you, whether you're staff or seniors, CC or whatever, when you're presented with a problem, you don't immediately place blame or you don't point fingers or anything like that.
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You kind of stop and think, what happened?
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Where did it go wrong?
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Where could I have maybe done something a little bit differently?
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How do I understand it first?
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And I think when you, whether this is in the workplace or in in daily life, or even if uh if it's a cross-cultural relationship, when you stop to seek to understand, your relationships and your collaboration just almost instantly get significantly better because both sides then feel like they are understood a little bit better, even if it's not 100%, at least you're showing that you're trying to understand, you're showing a little bit of compassion and you're you you want to solve the problem, you want to to work together on this particular thing, right?
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That idea is so it sounds really simple to be curious, but it is to just stop and and and check and reflect on what the problem is and where it's gone wrong and where we might go next, is is just a massive super skill, I would say.
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And and I think as well for leadership, one of the things that I've come to kind of learn in my in my work.
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I come from in the NGO space, I always did a lot of facilitation and training, right?
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And my role essentially was to support young community coaches in Laos, Philippines, Vietnam, to to grow into the the trainer role and essentially do myself out of a job because it's their community, it's their crew, it's their identity, it's their language, you know.
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And and I think that there are really few leaders who have those facilitation skills.
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And sometimes you might have to be quite direct and get stuff done.
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But I think though this the skills of facilitation are super important for anybody who is in a leadership role, a management role, but also even just in general conversation, if you want to understand people a little bit better.
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The skills of active listening, questions, kind of different techniques that you can use to pull a little bit more information out of someone instead of giving and and and directing more, you know.
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Those skills are are really, really lacking, I think, in many people.
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And I think again, where where it goes where it goes right, where it's done well, is leaders who understand that they don't always have to be right in the thick of it and they don't always have to be fixing everything, but actually they can facilitate somebody else to feel empowered.
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I don't like the words, but to be empowered and to have the authority and the confidence to deal with something themselves, right?
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And I think in the corporate sector in Vietnam, one of the massive issues I hear all the time is that my team don't step up and they don't I want my team to step up and I want them to take control or take responsibility.
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Well, you can't do that if you're not facilitating them to grow and develop into their role, to test things, to try things, to fail.
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You know, everyone talks about psychological safety.
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That's what I think facilitation is, right?
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Facilitation allows you to work towards psychological safety where people do feel empowered.
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They do feel like they have the confidence to try something, to make a decision.
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It might not be right, but they know that they're okay to do that in the space that they created with their the leader, you know.
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So yeah, I'd say curiosity and facilitation and that that sense of sort of powering and and helping each other to to grow and and do things see the key kind of themes that I've that I've come across.
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That's really interesting.
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At that point of creating that psychological safety, and you talking about leaders referencing uh they wish that their staff members spoke up more and communicated more more openly.
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And perhaps what I'm picturing again, I'm I'm putting my sort of perhaps teacher head on, if you like, in my experiences of working in schools, you're in a meeting, right?
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And and the person chairing the meeting is the Western person.
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What's culturally common is the right, this is the idea I have, challenge me, you know.
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Tell me what you think tell me what you think is good, tell me what you think is not good, and there's silence.
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And the probably the most simplistic way that a westernized culture would assume that is oh, silence means success, because all silence means agreement, because nobody's speaking up, right?
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And we know that from from from various books and research and and people's experiences, that's not always the case.
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But someone someone said to me recently, which really stuck with me, was that it's not necessarily a negative thing, but some people were pride in themselves that they've developed leaders within their group, non-Western leaders within their group, to speak up during those meetings.
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And someone sort of said to me that they put it another way, yes, that's good leadership, and sure, it's made an impact.
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But what if that person who's speaking up, that you've developed and advanced, if you like, to speak up is not comfortable speaking up?
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And this person was sort of saying to me how the real culturally diverse, culturally respectful and understanding leader understands that they never want to speak up in that meeting, and that leader finds a way to get the information out of them without doing it on their terms, without doing it in that platform, in that environment that isn't common and good practice to the Western leader.
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And I find it really just amazing the difference of approach and that East versus West or East meets West is really fascinating.
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Do you know I I don't even think that necessarily is an East versus West thing because I actually think it's a hierarchy thing, right?
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Nobody wants in in a formal meeting, right?
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Nobody, if you play if you replace that Western foreign leader with a Vietnamese male who's maybe a little bit more older, has a little bit more status, blah, blah, blah.
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In that formal environment, nobody is wanting to speak up there because you can't go against the hierarchy.
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And there are different Western and Eastern kind of cultural concepts that would be problematic.
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But I think that one is about hierarchy, right?
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And and it's definitely that formal setting as well.
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:11.839
And I think there are two things I really are so strong in in me around this kind of I guess participation and and the kind of uh facilitation.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.119
That formal meeting, when you're looking for ideas or whatever, there's they're they're rubbish, they're absolutely rubbish.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:23.839
You need to be able to facilitate that in and you need to have different kind of different, like you say, different ways to pull information out of people.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.519
I have been astounded every time I've been in that kind of setting, right?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.880
If it's my seventh day, and you get I get nothing.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.359
And I know that silence doesn't mean success.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.319
I know that there are problems, but I I know that I'm not gonna get it in that way.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:47.440
I'm astounded at how much success I get from okay, split into little groups of three, you know, Cho and Mingyang, you you work together speaking Vietnamese, you're gonna have five minutes.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:50.480
I want you to come back with a question that you don't understand.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:58.480
You have to, you guys have you have to think about the five different problems that we haven't picked up on over here, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:07.200
Literally, something as simple as small groups and a particular directive on something that we're talking about will immediately give you the input that you're that you're looking for.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:14.799
Immediately because they're talking to each other in VM's, the hierarchy has been removed, and you've given them a specific thing to look at now.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.319
Like I know there are five things wrong with this thing, and I want you to pick them apart now.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.039
So I know it.
00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.240
I'm giving you the freedom to tell me what they are.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:23.519
Don't worry, I'm not offended, right?
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:24.559
I'm not going to be offended.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:25.200
Pick them out.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.000
Okay, cool.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.960
So so actually, well, so that astounds me, right?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:38.079
And that's facilitation, it's dead simple, but it's just a really, really quick facilitation tool that you could do in your meetings to to get much more information from people.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:49.839
And I also think as well, in Vietnam in a lot of Asian cultures, there's always this thing about you know people like to have food together and they like to talk to each other over food, and that's where the real decisions happen, blah blah blah.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:50.640
I think that's true.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:22:05.920
And I think as well, one of the things that that that I kind of link to to this is a piece of sport research that I can't remember who who did it, but one of our One of our trainers from I think from the US taught us probably about eight, nine years ago now.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:14.000
Essentially, the outcome of the research was around the importance of building the relationship with kids before you go into the session with them.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:27.359
So if you're a coach and you're working with, say, 10-year-old kids, 12-year-old kids, but even adults as well, and you don't talk to them until you're in the session, then they're already in this mindset of we're in the session, we're learning the skills that are it's different.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.720
There are barriers there, right?
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.720
There are kind of social like norms and etiquette or whatever involved in that space.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:44.240
Outside of that, that's when kids are or adults are going to be more open and joking, and you can ask them questions about their family, about the trip they did last week, and all that kind of stuff.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:50.799
I think that's also true of the workplace as well in cross-cultural environments, even not cross-cultural environments.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:57.839
The amount of information that you can get as a leader just by chatting to someone and you just drop things into the conversation about this project over here.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:02.640
Again, it's not formal, it's not, you know, in your face, it's not a real direct thing.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:08.000
But well, actually, I was thinking, I didn't want to say in the meeting, but I was thinking, how about this?
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:09.359
Okay, great.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.319
Cool.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.200
And I just think those are two, you know, they're not exactly the same, but I think they're so linked in that sense of building relationships outside of the formal thing.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:22.079
You know, outside of the thing is is super important.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.359
And and that again is like facilitation skills from you as a leader.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:26.480
How do you talk to people?
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:28.799
How do you know which question to ask?
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.839
How do you ask a question that gets something out of someone?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:32.960
How do you follow up?
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:33.759
How do you mirror?
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:38.799
These are really, really important skills that I think all leaders and coaches should should have.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.039
And they can be deployed in so many different ways in your in your day-to-day.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:53.680
And your your work that you do now and the work you've done, um it's a it's a hard question I'm going to ask because you've not necessarily lived in different countries.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:05.599
But would you say that the work you've done is transferable to other countries, to other cultures, or would you say that perhaps the specialties that you have and you develop is predominantly in Vietnam?
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.359
And if so, what's the reasons why?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:08.799
Yeah, good great question.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:40.559
One thing I've heard almost in every single country that I've worked in, be it kind of training, be it the the NGO stuff, be it safeguarding with with sport organizations, is well, you can't really do that in in our country because our culture is our culture is I always find that it's it's easy for me to say this as a white westerner, but I always find that it's it's usually kind of uh a thin veil of it's usually hierarchy, really, is the is the actual problem that people don't want to deal with.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.559
And I think that it's difficult.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.519
Hierarchy is really difficult for someone who doesn't benefit from that hierarchy to change.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:53.759
So meaning someone younger or junior or in a lower position, it's really hard for that person to to really affect change.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:06.240
So what I think is really important is that leadership needs to develop these skills of reflecting, being curious, challenging your own practice and developing the skills of facilitation to change the way that it's always done.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:24.160
Because I think in you know, whether it's in Bhutan or Laos or Philippines, I think those facilitation skills are are literally just the the kind of superhero that leaders can use to just unlock problems.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:25.200
Really, I I really do.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:31.519
I think in every country, every culture, there's uh most of the countries I've worked in, it's usually hierarchy that is the challenge.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.400
And I think facilitation skills kind of just unlocks that, you know.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:39.519
Brilliant.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:51.680
And and just before we before we finish, I just want to touch upon a really key aspect of both your work, but I think also the work of many people in international education, which is safeguarded.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:26:17.599
And I'm just curious from your perspective of what you do in your work and and the direction which you're going in, how do you build, maintain, and establish safeguarding expectations that do translate to British international schools or even just general international private schools when the foundations are perhaps not as clear as other countries?
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:19.759
Great question.
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.200
Yeah, loads of good questions.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:22.000
I love this.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.640
This is good.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:23.279
I love this.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:29.200
So I haven't actually done any safeguarding in the formal education system at all.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.079
My safeguarding experience is safeguarding in sport.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.799
So safeguarding a sport, probably a little bit behind safeguarding in schools.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:46.240
Um and I would say the UK has the UK and Australia have been probably the kind of guiding lights for safeguarding across the board over the last, you know, two, three decades.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:55.440
Um and safeguarding of sport is now kind of I think more of a conversation at more governing bodies, let's say, than it was, say, ten years ago.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:00.480
All my work in safeguarding has been in South Asia or Southeast Asia or the Pacific.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:27.200
And almost all of it has been in contexts where low resources, sometimes not even a kind of functioning child protection system, or a local authority, sometimes a lack of trust within the local authorities, or police who are not trained to deal with the kind of more serious issues that maybe happen in the community more so than in the in the organ in the organization, right?
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:30.880
Usually all three at the same time is is is what what I dealt with.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:46.480
So to that point, I think what's really important with safeguarding is it safeguarding is a constant, constant thing because in a nutshell, safeguarding is risk mitigation, right?
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:53.039
You identify something that could be a problem, and we're not talking about the biggest severe case of sexual abuse or anything like that.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.079
We're talking about it could it be a problem, could it cause some kind of harm?
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.359
Could it cause a problem?
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.000
And then you figure out how to deal with that problem.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.599
What's the best course of action?
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:05.920
It could be you just have a word with a person, it could be you have to report, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:16.240
In places where that culture of reporting, challenging hierarchy, or you know, being kind of proactive in problem solving don't exist.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.119
Safeguarding is super difficult to get off the ground.
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:38.400
But what's really key in my experience to actually getting off the ground and being successful is continuous checking in, uh structured intentional design around checking in with your safeguarding lead or your CEO or your principal or whoever it might be, and basing it on a kind of assessment of your practice.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:58.079
And that is essentially coaching and mentoring someone through the process of just slowly but surely being more comfortable with identifying a problem, fixing the problem, identifying a problematic behavior, dealing with that problematic behavior, and being able to then report that into the system and then being able to document the things that have happened, right?
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:12.240
The way that we would do it in my previous role, and I I think most safeguarding places still do now, is you have some sort of assessment criteria or some kind of standards, and you work with the the team to figure out what's what's being done and what evidence is in place, all that kind of stuff.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:21.519
And we when I worked in with the in the NGO space, those standards of practice are super important.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:30.960
But I think what's even more important is someone to again develop this sense of curiosity and critical thinking around behaviour problem and how do we fix that.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:43.039
Those are the kind of skills that help someone to not just be comfortable that there's a policy in place, but uncomfortable that there is not practice in place and then willing to chase that, right?
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:47.759
Everyone else talks about it and safeguarding around, oh, the policy is just on paper and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:58.079
But actually, not a lot of organizations that I've seen actually actively check, reflect, test, and even role-play or train these kind of things, right?
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:03.599
It's usually just sign a bit of paper, get your little visitor card, and then just go in.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.279
And actually, I think to really build that culture, you've got to train it.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.079
You've got to check it, you've got to role play it all the time.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:28.000
And the best kind of safeguarding development work that I've been a part of or supported has been every two months, every three months, every six months, training role play, fixing, like figuring out what the real problem is within your safeguarding practice and tailoring that train towards that, right?
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:53.200
And that goes for not just a your designated safeguarding lead, because often everything just gets stuck on that one person, but actually the the real situation, the reality is that your teachers, every single day, I guarantee your teachers will come up with like three or four different behavioural things that you know problematic, maybe one of four are potentially safeguarding or harm, you know, kind of scenarios.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.720
So those are the ones that are right at the front of the implementation, right?
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.039
The operations and deal with with kids.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:05.759
And those are the people who are really the ones who will easily identify problems and then be able to fix them quite quickly as well, you know.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:12.160
So and often they're really under they know there's a policy and they know that they you know they should report, blah, blah, blah.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:24.559
But they're not often actually supported through like a role-play training to actually deal with that problem, whether it's a really small thing or a really serious situation, and again, there may be complex hierarchy, relationships involved or whatever.
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:30.319
Yeah, it has to be across the full organization from your designated safeguarding lead all the way down to your security guard.
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.880
You know, why why are they doing a code of conduct with someone coming in or or whatever, you know?
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.200
All these people have to understand their roles within the kind of ecosystem of safeguarding.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:59.039
So yeah, I think clear standards plan for your kind of rollout and your your training, and in a really specific training plan with somebody mentored and coached to develop the skills to think critically about behavior, practice, standards, process for visitors coming in, risk assessment and all that kind of stuff.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.359
That's how you really, really embed safe value.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.720
And it's not it's not easy.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.680
It's really not easy.
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:04.400
I know.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.160
I know that it's not easy, but it's uh it actually I find that it gets easier the more that you do it, you know.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.039
Brilliant.
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:17.279
And and the final question that I want to ask you, which I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I want I want a yes or no answer.
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.599
I'm not sure I'll be able to give a yes or no answer.
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.000
It's a hard, it's a hard one.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.400
It would require nuance and it would require context.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:25.920
I want you to say yes or no, right?
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:30.400
And I want you to be confident when I ask this because I know you speak Vietnamese well.
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:30.960
Yeah.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.240
You know, you'll be humble, but I know you speak Vietnamese very well.
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:54.960
I want to ask you, as a Westerner who's lived in Vietnam for more than 10 years and very much in the culture and environment, do you think to be truly embedded, successful, and achieve the things you set out to achieve, whether that be in business, whether it be in safeguarding, whether it be whatever, trying to have impact in a different culture?
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.039
If you're really trying to have impact, you need to be able to speak the language.
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.079
Yes or no?
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.440
Yes.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:03.359
Thank you very much.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:10.240
I push you to that point, is because I wrestled with it in my head, you know, again, as I mentioned, living in in various countries.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.680
And I would always kind of initially kind of say, Oh, you don't need to know language.
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:20.319
And locals would say, Oh, you don't need to know the language, you just need to know a few words, you just need to get by, you need to kind of show a bit of respect in that sense.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.000
And it's more about just who you are.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:31.759
And I just I don't have the answer, you know, and I wanted to ask you that and put you in that spot because you can speak the language, you can get by and have conversations, and you are there and part of it.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:46.400
And you know, uh I know there are nuances, of course, there always are, but I think for me, I just I think it's nice to hear and nice to see someone that's actually done it, embedded themselves, learn a language and and just say, Yeah, you you need that to really make an impact.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:54.000
I think you know, I'm gonna speak for you now, but you can make an impact without the language, you can be involved and immersed in the culture.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.039
Can you really, really be part of the culture?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:58.240
Can you really be accepted?
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.400
Can you really understand the nuances of the culture if you can't speak the language?
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.240
And you know, it's something that I wrestle with, so that's where it sort of came from.
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:10.800
Yeah, I yeah, it I was playing your game a little bit, so that's why I answered so quickly.
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.360
But I can't.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:14.800
Go on, go on, go on, go on.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.639
I I do I do think so.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.559
I've obviously I've worked in a lot of different countries and I don't speak those languages.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:26.880
So you can think you can see from a safeguarding perspective and from a kind of leadership development perspective, you can see a lot.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.920
If you're curious, I come back to this all the time.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.000
People ask me, you know, how do you speak Vietnamese?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:32.639
Blah, blah, blah.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.079
It's just because I'm curious.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:42.239
When I went when I spent you know six weeks working in Laos, I could understand fairly conversational loos within the training environment.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:43.440
Can't speak it, right?
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.000
But I know some words and I can have a three, three sentence conversation with my my friend, right?
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:49.280
But it's because I'm curious.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.360
If I spent six weeks in China, I'd be the same as as well, right?
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.639
And it's just because I'm curious.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:06.159
But that also is what I think leadership is looking for these things and observing things or being curious about oh, why did they not speak up or why why does she only you know respond when the other woman chimed in, right?
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.159
That's really, really important what it's about.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:20.639
But then I think especially for a thing like safeguarding, if you're really at the coal face, knowing the language is not just about the language, it's about how people behave as well and how they behave in relation to other people too.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:28.320
So you can understand a lot based on the language that someone would use to another person in relation to their age, if that makes sense.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:30.320
So you can hear the tone within that.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.480
You may not observe the attitude, but you can hear the tone within the language if that makes sense.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.760
I guess I guess Mandarin might be similar to the language thing as well.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.360
It does make people go.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.760
And it changes your whole relationship with them.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.599
I think that's such a such a big thing.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.519
It just changes your relationship with people.
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:49.519
Absolutely.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.719
Brilliant.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:56.880
Thank you very much, Johnny, for um giving me your your time and for chatting through all the things you've done in Vietnam.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:03.199
And obviously, I've known you for a while in terms of in Vietnam at the same time and uh had a few conversations, not to this extent.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:06.320
A shame that we haven't before, but lovely that we have now.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.079
And uh yeah, wish you the best of luck for everything in the future, and I'm sure we'll hear some exciting things and look forward to the Vietnamese national team.
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.039
Thanks, mate.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.679
Thanks for having me on.
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.199
It's uh that's a privilege, actually.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.519
I'm really when I saw you posting this on on LinkedIn about it, I was really happy.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:29.039
And I saw there were a lot of kind of interesting overlaps in uh some of the things that we're that we're looking at and understanding in our professional careers.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:31.760
So yeah, delighted to be a part of it and so cool to see.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:33.440
So cool to see that it's getting on.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:34.239
So yeah, thanks, mate.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:34.960
Thanks for having me.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:35.840
Cheers, Johnny.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.639
Nice one.
00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:06.320
International education.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.160
The classrooms, the staff rooms, the lives built far from home.
00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:11.519
This is the Common Room.
00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:13.039
I'm Joshua Sussex.
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:14.320
Let's talk.
00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.600
Johnny has been coaching sports since he was 15 years old.
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:32.799
Thirteen years ago, he moved to Vietnam and he has spent every one of them in education, though almost none of it in a classroom.
00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:42.880
Eight of those years were with Child Fund Rugby, taking a life skills program across Asia Pacific, using rugby to teach children the things that don't fit neatly onto a timetable.
00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:48.240
Gender equity, financial literacy, how to talk about domestic violence, just being some of them.
00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:51.840
He built Divey at Rugby.
00:00:51.920 --> 00:01:01.920
He has spent a decade working on safeguarding in places where there is no safeguarding system to work with, and now trains lawyers, NGOs, and school leaders in how to actually work across cultures.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:09.200
Which, if you ever sat in a meeting where everybody was perfectly polite and nothing whatsoever was agreed, you will know how hard that is.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:10.560
Welcome, Johnny.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:12.000
Thanks very much, Sheffield.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:12.640
Thanks for having me.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:13.920
Delighted to be here.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:22.879
So, first of all, straight into it, you started coaching at 15 when most people that age are being coached and not even considering coaching at that point.
00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:25.200
What made you make that transition?
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:31.599
I was a big rugby player when I was five years old, all the way through to now, still actually.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:44.159
And my dad was also big on education, big on rugby, and he coached my older brother all the way till he was 18 years old, and then he coached my team as well, all the way through till we were under 18 or 18 years old.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:52.640
And so when I was about 15, it made sense for me to also get into coaching in the in the local kind of community.
00:01:52.799 --> 00:02:01.120
So I did a couple of badges with our local council and just started coaching kids in schools all around Lanarkshire as a bit of a part-time job.
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:09.199
And yeah, so I wasn't coaching lawyers at that point for sure, but I was coaching kids on how to play how to play rugby, and I've just kept that with me ever since, you know.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:12.400
So that theme has been consistent the whole way through my life.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:16.960
I was then in unique studying literature at that point.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:33.199
So you're back home, you've completed that degree, you you've been sports coaching on the side, you've gone around the community, you've built up a you've put experience and probably a repertoire of how to coach and what to coach and age ranges, and then you've then taken those experiences to Vietnam.
00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:37.280
Before we get to Vietnam, the first question is why Vietnam?
00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:45.680
Part of the answer is that I wanted to I wanted to go as far away from where I was that I could.
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:48.240
I was very influenced by romantic writers.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:55.199
So at the time I was reading Jack Kerouac on the road, and I just loved a sense of adventure and and exploration and all this kind of stuff.
00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:59.039
And so I felt like Scotland's not very exotic at all.
00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:07.439
And so I wanted to go somewhere as far away from Scotland as I could, as as different as I could from what I what I know, the culture I come from, and all that kind of stuff.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.000
And then I had a choice between China, actually.
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.240
China, Vietnam, Thailand, and Poland.
00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.400
And Poland was pretty close in terms of geography and it's European.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:22.560
Thailand I didn't really fancy at the time, China didn't really fancy at the time, and I didn't know anything about Vietnam at all.
00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.360
So I just chose Vietnam as well.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:27.280
Wow.
00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:32.560
So you literally just went for it and thought, right, I don't I know nothing about this place, I'll give it a go and see what happens.
00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:34.319
And what what are we now?
00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.039
What what what is it how many years are we in now to Vietnam?
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.080
Yesterday was my 13-year anniversary.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:49.919
And and so fast forward a little bit to to more so where you are in recent years and and the work that you're doing with the with the rugby.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:55.840
Obviously, you mentioned the countries that you visited, you've worked at, you've promoted rugby, and the young people that you've worked with as well.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:00.639
I mean, you know, the the transition makes perfect sense given given your your background, where you come from.
00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:14.240
Just talk a little bit about the challenges that you faced of trying to implement a sport that is not traditionally there in rugby, the grassroots isn't there, and also the government side of support that is just not there for you.
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:17.360
How have you built that and what have you done to get over those challenges?
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:18.879
Yeah, good good question.
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.439
The biggest obvious challenge is that rugby is just not a popular sport in Vienna.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:25.680
It's just not nobody really knows about it.
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:33.519
They certainly didn't know about it ten years ago, and so therefore nobody plays it, or it's a challenge to get them into the game, right?
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:40.480
And some of the reasons behind that are that what team sports aren't very popular in uh in Vietnam.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:48.959
I was told by uh by someone in government many years ago that Vietnam does not play team sports, only individual sports, which I th I found fascinating for a collectivist society.
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:56.800
And but also things like being scared of the sun, the heat, and injury as well is a massive thing.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:06.879
So uh especially when we're working in rural areas in Vietnam, most of the the young coaches that we used to work with on the the previous program were farmers, right?
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.199
So they're subsistence farmers, which means if they have an injury, they don't get paid, they they can't work the farm, they can't they can't get money, right?
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.240
So so that's a real challenge, that's a legit concern, right?
00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:30.639
But interestingly, I think now, and one of the reasons why I kind of decided to really go all in on trying to build that rugby and kind of grow the sport in Vietnam is that there's this sense of momentum that's we've never had before in the 13 years that I've been here.
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:39.199
Almost everything is kind of coming together at the same time to align that that creates this momentum of we can actually do something here.
00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:43.199
And that's why I'm really confident that we can actually affect change.
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:49.120
Whereas I maybe I wouldn't have been that confident even five years ago or even 10 years ago.
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:54.319
And that comes from both the kind of grassroots clubs, social society that we have, but also from the government as well.
00:05:54.480 --> 00:06:01.759
The government is in this uh Vienna is in this really interesting kind of transformation 2.0 phase with a hundred-year plan.
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.639
Really revamp and really like drive on the society.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:09.040
And I think two things are also really interesting for me in the role that that I'm in.
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:15.279
One is a big emphasis on niche and new sports with the sport authority.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:20.079
So we've been we've had a really good relationship with the sport authority over the last two years.
00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:27.439
They've supported things that we're doing, they've approved us to run a national team, which I think is just unheard of, especially in rugby has never happened before.
00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:28.720
Um, and that's amazing.
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.240
That would never have happened five years ago.
00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:38.480
At the same time, I think as well, there's a huge gap in social and emotional competencies in children as well.
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:53.360
And so the Ministry of Education are aware of that, they recognize that, and they're trying to work on how do they influence or how do they kind of mainstream, I guess, social and emotional learning competencies into education in the formal education system.
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.120
Where I come at that from is actually, I think that's probably best done.
00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:58.639
I would argue, I'm biased.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:04.959
I would say it's probably best done in a non-formal education environment rather than the teachers delivering that in the context that we're in.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:13.519
I think teachers in Vietnam have a long way to go to be trained and and to be capable of delivering social emotional learning within a classroom environment.
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:16.000
And lots of different pressures that they have to contend with, you know.
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:25.279
And so all these different things are coming together along with the society now, has an enormous uh interest in health and wellness as well.
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:35.759
So again, you have these three or four huge kind of elements, huge factors coming together, which means that we are getting lots of interest in what we're doing.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.759
Parents do want to bring their kid to try this new sport.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.160
The government is willing to support us to run this team sport and this national team.
00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:58.879
Um and we are getting interest from from adults as well, just to become a member, to be a part of the the group, and also to be able to in investor support the work that we do with children in rural areas where it is life skills through through rugby, you know.
00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:09.040
So um it's it's a super challenging thing because it's a lot of what I'm doing is like a federation model, it's not a business model, you know, so there's not there's no money in it.
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:15.279
But for me, it's important that we build the entire system at the same time, because without one, we don't have the other, right?
00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:24.160
If I ask the the government to approve a federation, but we have no grassroots and we have no national team, it makes it really hard to sell that, right?
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:40.240
Whereas if I have grassroots, if we have commercial operations, if we have a player pathway and we have a proven track record of education for coaches and referees and all these kind of things, then it becomes a case of, well, if you're already doing it, we might as well just carry on, right?
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:47.440
And and I think as well from the government side, the the the sport authority anyway, they're just really interested in in uh in success, right?
00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.120
In in elite level success.
00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.279
And I think within one or two years we'll be quite competitive at the ASEAN level.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:10.240
My role now is essentially kind of change management and facilitating different stakeholders to come together and align on this vision together because when we do that, we can we can be a really strong force for development and pathway progression, you know.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:21.600
But when we're I guess just like in an office where you've got departments kind of fighting each other and everyone has their own priorities or their own egos involved, it's it's harder to to kind of work towards the same goal, you know.
00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.639
So yeah, it's a big project, a really big project.
00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.399
But I really enjoyed it, you know?
00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:28.480
It's fascinating, it's absolutely brilliant.
00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.320
And I want to come into exactly what it is, why it happens, and where it happens.
00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:39.360
But before we do that, just just as a and without trying to sound like uh I'm encouraging you to sell the it's not a selling pitch.
00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:48.080
But what does a parent who has no knowledge, a Vietnamese parent who has no knowledge of rugby, has absolutely no awareness of the benefits of rugby?
00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:53.360
What are the main sort of three to five reasons as to why?
00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:57.919
Rugby is the the best team sport in the world.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:14.240
So if you're a young kid and you play rugby from a young age, you will learn really quickly how to navigate conflict, how to resolve problems, how to get on with people from different backgrounds, and how to essentially work together and collaborate.
00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:19.440
Um because in rugby you literally need the full team to work together to score points.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.440
Whereas other sports, maybe you have one really good player that can they can win the game for you today.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:25.039
Rump B, you don't really have that.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:31.200
So lots of social and emotional skills, which kids will get residually, even just from participating in in the game.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.559
Also, a really big one is health and fitness too.
00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:49.279
So playing in a team sport or any sport, regular physical activity, uh, I think there's an incredible stat of like between 70 to 90 percent, don't quote me on that, of children in Vietnam do not get their required amount of movement on a weekly basis in Vietnam.
00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.399
That's a huge problem for for kids in terms of their health, even their mental health as well.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:59.759
So by participating in rugby, you get to run it round, stay fit mentally and and physically.
00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:02.879
And a third one I say is friends, you get to make loads of friends.
00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:04.080
Absolutely loads of friends.
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:12.320
So not only do you stay fit, not only do you learn how to work in a team, you get to have loads of fun with your with your friends as as well.
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:19.200
And then I think the the other thing as well is that at the parent level, rugby clubs are a great place for community.
00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:24.960
And community is a kind of buzzword these days for a lot of brands and a lot of wellness clubs and things like that.
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:43.039
But when you're a part of a team, you have the same identity as somebody else in the same team as you, and that automatically brings you into that community, and you can find loads of help, support, and network where you where you might need it, and which you might not have been able to access anywhere else in your society or in your community.
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.519
So it's a great place for for community.
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:57.039
And I think another really interesting one I would add in for where we are in Vietnam is you would have the chance to potentially represent Vietnam very, very quickly in the in the future.
00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.159
And Vietnam's a very proud, patriotic uh country.
00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:08.480
And I think that that's that's a huge pool for for people to play for your country and represent your country on the on the international stage.
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:11.120
Brilliant, exciting, man.
00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:11.919
I'm really excited.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.039
I mean, yeah, brilliant.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:15.279
Love to get into that cultural part.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:34.320
So let's get into let's get into what you do you're doing the work you do now with and also the work you're doing with what is the work you're doing on a more day-to-day basis now in that cultural space and trying to bridge cultures between the Western, Eastern, uh, Asian cultures.
00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:36.480
What is it you're doing day-to-day?
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.600
Yeah, so I'll do a series of kind of workshops with teams, essentially.
00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:47.919
Work with a few international schools, private schools in Hanoi, and a couple of corporates, legal and tech and stuff like that.
00:12:48.399 --> 00:13:04.720
The overarching theme of what I do is help them to understand what the what the gaps are, what the problems are that they can't quite identify them themselves, and then help them with some frameworks to to be able to overcome those those problems, right?
00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:11.519
So it's usually the same themes that that come up in every team, every sector, every kind of industry.
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.159
And it's usually just about how do you collaborate with each other a little bit better.
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.080
That's that's really what it kind of boils down to.
00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:19.919
How do you collaborate a little bit better?
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:20.960
Is it communication?
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:22.639
Is it frameworks that you need to use?
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:27.840
Is it I guess your kind of tools and platforms that you use to track your work and things like that?
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.840
It's really how do you collaborate?
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:37.840
And a lot of teams are really good with that kind of stuff, and a lot of teams just they just don't know how to do something that they don't know, right?
00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:39.279
You don't know what you don't know.
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:52.799
What's been some of the biggest differences you've noticed during that journey, both yourself and the many years you've been in Vietnam, but also in that line of work and meeting these people, of seeing the difference of approaches when they when they're trying to collaborate.
00:13:53.039 --> 00:14:00.399
What's been the few that stand out and you think that is so far removed from what is needed in this environment to succeed?
00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:06.799
I think the the biggest thing for me, where people tend to get this stuff right, is when they're curious.
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:17.679
So that means if you, whether you're staff or seniors, CC or whatever, when you're presented with a problem, you don't immediately place blame or you don't point fingers or anything like that.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:19.600
You kind of stop and think, what happened?
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:21.360
Where did it go wrong?
00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:25.200
Where could I have maybe done something a little bit differently?
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.120
How do I understand it first?
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:59.679
And I think when you, whether this is in the workplace or in in daily life, or even if uh if it's a cross-cultural relationship, when you stop to seek to understand, your relationships and your collaboration just almost instantly get significantly better because both sides then feel like they are understood a little bit better, even if it's not 100%, at least you're showing that you're trying to understand, you're showing a little bit of compassion and you're you you want to solve the problem, you want to to work together on this particular thing, right?
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:12.480
That idea is so it sounds really simple to be curious, but it is to just stop and and and check and reflect on what the problem is and where it's gone wrong and where we might go next, is is just a massive super skill, I would say.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:20.240
And and I think as well for leadership, one of the things that I've come to kind of learn in my in my work.
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.480
I come from in the NGO space, I always did a lot of facilitation and training, right?
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:40.240
And my role essentially was to support young community coaches in Laos, Philippines, Vietnam, to to grow into the the trainer role and essentially do myself out of a job because it's their community, it's their crew, it's their identity, it's their language, you know.
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:47.919
And and I think that there are really few leaders who have those facilitation skills.
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.679
And sometimes you might have to be quite direct and get stuff done.
00:15:51.840 --> 00:16:04.879
But I think though this the skills of facilitation are super important for anybody who is in a leadership role, a management role, but also even just in general conversation, if you want to understand people a little bit better.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:15.120
The skills of active listening, questions, kind of different techniques that you can use to pull a little bit more information out of someone instead of giving and and and directing more, you know.
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.480
Those skills are are really, really lacking, I think, in many people.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:32.320
And I think again, where where it goes where it goes right, where it's done well, is leaders who understand that they don't always have to be right in the thick of it and they don't always have to be fixing everything, but actually they can facilitate somebody else to feel empowered.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:39.120
I don't like the words, but to be empowered and to have the authority and the confidence to deal with something themselves, right?
00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:52.480
And I think in the corporate sector in Vietnam, one of the massive issues I hear all the time is that my team don't step up and they don't I want my team to step up and I want them to take control or take responsibility.
00:16:52.720 --> 00:17:00.559
Well, you can't do that if you're not facilitating them to grow and develop into their role, to test things, to try things, to fail.
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.799
You know, everyone talks about psychological safety.
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.039
That's what I think facilitation is, right?
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.279
Facilitation allows you to work towards psychological safety where people do feel empowered.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.640
They do feel like they have the confidence to try something, to make a decision.
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:18.319
It might not be right, but they know that they're okay to do that in the space that they created with their the leader, you know.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:32.079
So yeah, I'd say curiosity and facilitation and that that sense of sort of powering and and helping each other to to grow and and do things see the key kind of themes that I've that I've come across.
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:34.079
That's really interesting.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:47.200
At that point of creating that psychological safety, and you talking about leaders referencing uh they wish that their staff members spoke up more and communicated more more openly.
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:54.400
And perhaps what I'm picturing again, I'm I'm putting my sort of perhaps teacher head on, if you like, in my experiences of working in schools, you're in a meeting, right?
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.160
And and the person chairing the meeting is the Western person.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:04.000
What's culturally common is the right, this is the idea I have, challenge me, you know.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:09.279
Tell me what you think tell me what you think is good, tell me what you think is not good, and there's silence.
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:20.079
And the probably the most simplistic way that a westernized culture would assume that is oh, silence means success, because all silence means agreement, because nobody's speaking up, right?
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:26.799
And we know that from from from various books and research and and people's experiences, that's not always the case.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:41.599
But someone someone said to me recently, which really stuck with me, was that it's not necessarily a negative thing, but some people were pride in themselves that they've developed leaders within their group, non-Western leaders within their group, to speak up during those meetings.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.480
And someone sort of said to me that they put it another way, yes, that's good leadership, and sure, it's made an impact.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:54.079
But what if that person who's speaking up, that you've developed and advanced, if you like, to speak up is not comfortable speaking up?
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:15.359
And this person was sort of saying to me how the real culturally diverse, culturally respectful and understanding leader understands that they never want to speak up in that meeting, and that leader finds a way to get the information out of them without doing it on their terms, without doing it in that platform, in that environment that isn't common and good practice to the Western leader.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:22.480
And I find it really just amazing the difference of approach and that East versus West or East meets West is really fascinating.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.200
Do you know I I don't even think that necessarily is an East versus West thing because I actually think it's a hierarchy thing, right?
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.920
Nobody wants in in a formal meeting, right?
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:43.440
Nobody, if you play if you replace that Western foreign leader with a Vietnamese male who's maybe a little bit more older, has a little bit more status, blah, blah, blah.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:50.559
In that formal environment, nobody is wanting to speak up there because you can't go against the hierarchy.
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:57.680
And there are different Western and Eastern kind of cultural concepts that would be problematic.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:59.599
But I think that one is about hierarchy, right?
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.480
And and it's definitely that formal setting as well.
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:11.839
And I think there are two things I really are so strong in in me around this kind of I guess participation and and the kind of uh facilitation.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.119
That formal meeting, when you're looking for ideas or whatever, there's they're they're rubbish, they're absolutely rubbish.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:23.839
You need to be able to facilitate that in and you need to have different kind of different, like you say, different ways to pull information out of people.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.519
I have been astounded every time I've been in that kind of setting, right?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.880
If it's my seventh day, and you get I get nothing.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.359
And I know that silence doesn't mean success.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.319
I know that there are problems, but I I know that I'm not gonna get it in that way.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:47.440
I'm astounded at how much success I get from okay, split into little groups of three, you know, Cho and Mingyang, you you work together speaking Vietnamese, you're gonna have five minutes.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:50.480
I want you to come back with a question that you don't understand.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:58.480
You have to, you guys have you have to think about the five different problems that we haven't picked up on over here, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:07.200
Literally, something as simple as small groups and a particular directive on something that we're talking about will immediately give you the input that you're that you're looking for.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:14.799
Immediately because they're talking to each other in VM's, the hierarchy has been removed, and you've given them a specific thing to look at now.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.319
Like I know there are five things wrong with this thing, and I want you to pick them apart now.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.039
So I know it.
00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.240
I'm giving you the freedom to tell me what they are.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:23.519
Don't worry, I'm not offended, right?
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:24.559
I'm not going to be offended.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:25.200
Pick them out.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.000
Okay, cool.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.960
So so actually, well, so that astounds me, right?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:38.079
And that's facilitation, it's dead simple, but it's just a really, really quick facilitation tool that you could do in your meetings to to get much more information from people.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:49.839
And I also think as well, in Vietnam in a lot of Asian cultures, there's always this thing about you know people like to have food together and they like to talk to each other over food, and that's where the real decisions happen, blah blah blah.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:50.640
I think that's true.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:22:05.920
And I think as well, one of the things that that that I kind of link to to this is a piece of sport research that I can't remember who who did it, but one of our One of our trainers from I think from the US taught us probably about eight, nine years ago now.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:14.000
Essentially, the outcome of the research was around the importance of building the relationship with kids before you go into the session with them.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:27.359
So if you're a coach and you're working with, say, 10-year-old kids, 12-year-old kids, but even adults as well, and you don't talk to them until you're in the session, then they're already in this mindset of we're in the session, we're learning the skills that are it's different.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.720
There are barriers there, right?
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.720
There are kind of social like norms and etiquette or whatever involved in that space.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:44.240
Outside of that, that's when kids are or adults are going to be more open and joking, and you can ask them questions about their family, about the trip they did last week, and all that kind of stuff.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:50.799
I think that's also true of the workplace as well in cross-cultural environments, even not cross-cultural environments.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:57.839
The amount of information that you can get as a leader just by chatting to someone and you just drop things into the conversation about this project over here.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:02.640
Again, it's not formal, it's not, you know, in your face, it's not a real direct thing.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:08.000
But well, actually, I was thinking, I didn't want to say in the meeting, but I was thinking, how about this?
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:09.359
Okay, great.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.319
Cool.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.200
And I just think those are two, you know, they're not exactly the same, but I think they're so linked in that sense of building relationships outside of the formal thing.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:22.079
You know, outside of the thing is is super important.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.359
And and that again is like facilitation skills from you as a leader.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:26.480
How do you talk to people?
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:28.799
How do you know which question to ask?
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.839
How do you ask a question that gets something out of someone?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:32.960
How do you follow up?
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:33.759
How do you mirror?
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:38.799
These are really, really important skills that I think all leaders and coaches should should have.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.039
And they can be deployed in so many different ways in your in your day-to-day.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:53.680
And your your work that you do now and the work you've done, um it's a it's a hard question I'm going to ask because you've not necessarily lived in different countries.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:05.599
But would you say that the work you've done is transferable to other countries, to other cultures, or would you say that perhaps the specialties that you have and you develop is predominantly in Vietnam?
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.359
And if so, what's the reasons why?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:08.799
Yeah, good great question.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:40.559
One thing I've heard almost in every single country that I've worked in, be it kind of training, be it the the NGO stuff, be it safeguarding with with sport organizations, is well, you can't really do that in in our country because our culture is our culture is I always find that it's it's easy for me to say this as a white westerner, but I always find that it's it's usually kind of uh a thin veil of it's usually hierarchy, really, is the is the actual problem that people don't want to deal with.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.559
And I think that it's difficult.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.519
Hierarchy is really difficult for someone who doesn't benefit from that hierarchy to change.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:53.759
So meaning someone younger or junior or in a lower position, it's really hard for that person to to really affect change.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:06.240
So what I think is really important is that leadership needs to develop these skills of reflecting, being curious, challenging your own practice and developing the skills of facilitation to change the way that it's always done.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:24.160
Because I think in you know, whether it's in Bhutan or Laos or Philippines, I think those facilitation skills are are literally just the the kind of superhero that leaders can use to just unlock problems.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:25.200
Really, I I really do.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:31.519
I think in every country, every culture, there's uh most of the countries I've worked in, it's usually hierarchy that is the challenge.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.400
And I think facilitation skills kind of just unlocks that, you know.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:39.519
Brilliant.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:51.680
And and just before we before we finish, I just want to touch upon a really key aspect of both your work, but I think also the work of many people in international education, which is safeguarded.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:26:17.599
And I'm just curious from your perspective of what you do in your work and and the direction which you're going in, how do you build, maintain, and establish safeguarding expectations that do translate to British international schools or even just general international private schools when the foundations are perhaps not as clear as other countries?
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:19.759
Great question.
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.200
Yeah, loads of good questions.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:22.000
I love this.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.640
This is good.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:23.279
I love this.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:29.200
So I haven't actually done any safeguarding in the formal education system at all.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.079
My safeguarding experience is safeguarding in sport.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.799
So safeguarding a sport, probably a little bit behind safeguarding in schools.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:46.240
Um and I would say the UK has the UK and Australia have been probably the kind of guiding lights for safeguarding across the board over the last, you know, two, three decades.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:55.440
Um and safeguarding of sport is now kind of I think more of a conversation at more governing bodies, let's say, than it was, say, ten years ago.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:00.480
All my work in safeguarding has been in South Asia or Southeast Asia or the Pacific.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:27.200
And almost all of it has been in contexts where low resources, sometimes not even a kind of functioning child protection system, or a local authority, sometimes a lack of trust within the local authorities, or police who are not trained to deal with the kind of more serious issues that maybe happen in the community more so than in the in the organ in the organization, right?
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:30.880
Usually all three at the same time is is is what what I dealt with.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:46.480
So to that point, I think what's really important with safeguarding is it safeguarding is a constant, constant thing because in a nutshell, safeguarding is risk mitigation, right?
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:53.039
You identify something that could be a problem, and we're not talking about the biggest severe case of sexual abuse or anything like that.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.079
We're talking about it could it be a problem, could it cause some kind of harm?
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.359
Could it cause a problem?
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.000
And then you figure out how to deal with that problem.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.599
What's the best course of action?
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:05.920
It could be you just have a word with a person, it could be you have to report, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:16.240
In places where that culture of reporting, challenging hierarchy, or you know, being kind of proactive in problem solving don't exist.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.119
Safeguarding is super difficult to get off the ground.
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:38.400
But what's really key in my experience to actually getting off the ground and being successful is continuous checking in, uh structured intentional design around checking in with your safeguarding lead or your CEO or your principal or whoever it might be, and basing it on a kind of assessment of your practice.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:58.079
And that is essentially coaching and mentoring someone through the process of just slowly but surely being more comfortable with identifying a problem, fixing the problem, identifying a problematic behavior, dealing with that problematic behavior, and being able to then report that into the system and then being able to document the things that have happened, right?
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:12.240
The way that we would do it in my previous role, and I I think most safeguarding places still do now, is you have some sort of assessment criteria or some kind of standards, and you work with the the team to figure out what's what's being done and what evidence is in place, all that kind of stuff.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:21.519
And we when I worked in with the in the NGO space, those standards of practice are super important.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:30.960
But I think what's even more important is someone to again develop this sense of curiosity and critical thinking around behaviour problem and how do we fix that.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:43.039
Those are the kind of skills that help someone to not just be comfortable that there's a policy in place, but uncomfortable that there is not practice in place and then willing to chase that, right?
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:47.759
Everyone else talks about it and safeguarding around, oh, the policy is just on paper and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:58.079
But actually, not a lot of organizations that I've seen actually actively check, reflect, test, and even role-play or train these kind of things, right?
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:03.599
It's usually just sign a bit of paper, get your little visitor card, and then just go in.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.279
And actually, I think to really build that culture, you've got to train it.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.079
You've got to check it, you've got to role play it all the time.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:28.000
And the best kind of safeguarding development work that I've been a part of or supported has been every two months, every three months, every six months, training role play, fixing, like figuring out what the real problem is within your safeguarding practice and tailoring that train towards that, right?
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:53.200
And that goes for not just a your designated safeguarding lead, because often everything just gets stuck on that one person, but actually the the real situation, the reality is that your teachers, every single day, I guarantee your teachers will come up with like three or four different behavioural things that you know problematic, maybe one of four are potentially safeguarding or harm, you know, kind of scenarios.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.720
So those are the ones that are right at the front of the implementation, right?
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.039
The operations and deal with with kids.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:05.759
And those are the people who are really the ones who will easily identify problems and then be able to fix them quite quickly as well, you know.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:12.160
So and often they're really under they know there's a policy and they know that they you know they should report, blah, blah, blah.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:24.559
But they're not often actually supported through like a role-play training to actually deal with that problem, whether it's a really small thing or a really serious situation, and again, there may be complex hierarchy, relationships involved or whatever.
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:30.319
Yeah, it has to be across the full organization from your designated safeguarding lead all the way down to your security guard.
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.880
You know, why why are they doing a code of conduct with someone coming in or or whatever, you know?
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.200
All these people have to understand their roles within the kind of ecosystem of safeguarding.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:59.039
So yeah, I think clear standards plan for your kind of rollout and your your training, and in a really specific training plan with somebody mentored and coached to develop the skills to think critically about behavior, practice, standards, process for visitors coming in, risk assessment and all that kind of stuff.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.359
That's how you really, really embed safe value.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.720
And it's not it's not easy.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.680
It's really not easy.
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:04.400
I know.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.160
I know that it's not easy, but it's uh it actually I find that it gets easier the more that you do it, you know.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.039
Brilliant.
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:17.279
And and the final question that I want to ask you, which I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I want I want a yes or no answer.
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.599
I'm not sure I'll be able to give a yes or no answer.
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.000
It's a hard, it's a hard one.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.400
It would require nuance and it would require context.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:25.920
I want you to say yes or no, right?
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:30.400
And I want you to be confident when I ask this because I know you speak Vietnamese well.
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:30.960
Yeah.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.240
You know, you'll be humble, but I know you speak Vietnamese very well.
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:54.960
I want to ask you, as a Westerner who's lived in Vietnam for more than 10 years and very much in the culture and environment, do you think to be truly embedded, successful, and achieve the things you set out to achieve, whether that be in business, whether it be in safeguarding, whether it be whatever, trying to have impact in a different culture?
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.039
If you're really trying to have impact, you need to be able to speak the language.
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.079
Yes or no?
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.440
Yes.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:03.359
Thank you very much.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:10.240
I push you to that point, is because I wrestled with it in my head, you know, again, as I mentioned, living in in various countries.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.680
And I would always kind of initially kind of say, Oh, you don't need to know language.
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:20.319
And locals would say, Oh, you don't need to know the language, you just need to know a few words, you just need to get by, you need to kind of show a bit of respect in that sense.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.000
And it's more about just who you are.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:31.759
And I just I don't have the answer, you know, and I wanted to ask you that and put you in that spot because you can speak the language, you can get by and have conversations, and you are there and part of it.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:46.400
And you know, uh I know there are nuances, of course, there always are, but I think for me, I just I think it's nice to hear and nice to see someone that's actually done it, embedded themselves, learn a language and and just say, Yeah, you you need that to really make an impact.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:54.000
I think you know, I'm gonna speak for you now, but you can make an impact without the language, you can be involved and immersed in the culture.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.039
Can you really, really be part of the culture?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:58.240
Can you really be accepted?
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.400
Can you really understand the nuances of the culture if you can't speak the language?
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.240
And you know, it's something that I wrestle with, so that's where it sort of came from.
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:10.800
Yeah, I yeah, it I was playing your game a little bit, so that's why I answered so quickly.
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.360
But I can't.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:14.800
Go on, go on, go on, go on.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.639
I I do I do think so.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.559
I've obviously I've worked in a lot of different countries and I don't speak those languages.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:26.880
So you can think you can see from a safeguarding perspective and from a kind of leadership development perspective, you can see a lot.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.920
If you're curious, I come back to this all the time.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.000
People ask me, you know, how do you speak Vietnamese?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:32.639
Blah, blah, blah.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.079
It's just because I'm curious.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:42.239
When I went when I spent you know six weeks working in Laos, I could understand fairly conversational loos within the training environment.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:43.440
Can't speak it, right?
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.000
But I know some words and I can have a three, three sentence conversation with my my friend, right?
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:49.280
But it's because I'm curious.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.360
If I spent six weeks in China, I'd be the same as as well, right?
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.639
And it's just because I'm curious.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:06.159
But that also is what I think leadership is looking for these things and observing things or being curious about oh, why did they not speak up or why why does she only you know respond when the other woman chimed in, right?
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.159
That's really, really important what it's about.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:20.639
But then I think especially for a thing like safeguarding, if you're really at the coal face, knowing the language is not just about the language, it's about how people behave as well and how they behave in relation to other people too.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:28.320
So you can understand a lot based on the language that someone would use to another person in relation to their age, if that makes sense.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:30.320
So you can hear the tone within that.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.480
You may not observe the attitude, but you can hear the tone within the language if that makes sense.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.760
I guess I guess Mandarin might be similar to the language thing as well.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.360
It does make people go.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.760
And it changes your whole relationship with them.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.599
I think that's such a such a big thing.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.519
It just changes your relationship with people.
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:49.519
Absolutely.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.719
Brilliant.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:56.880
Thank you very much, Johnny, for um giving me your your time and for chatting through all the things you've done in Vietnam.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:03.199
And obviously, I've known you for a while in terms of in Vietnam at the same time and uh had a few conversations, not to this extent.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:06.320
A shame that we haven't before, but lovely that we have now.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.079
And uh yeah, wish you the best of luck for everything in the future, and I'm sure we'll hear some exciting things and look forward to the Vietnamese national team.
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.039
Thanks, mate.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.679
Thanks for having me on.
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.199
It's uh that's a privilege, actually.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.519
I'm really when I saw you posting this on on LinkedIn about it, I was really happy.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:29.039
And I saw there were a lot of kind of interesting overlaps in uh some of the things that we're that we're looking at and understanding in our professional careers.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:31.760
So yeah, delighted to be a part of it and so cool to see.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:33.440
So cool to see that it's getting on.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:34.239
So yeah, thanks, mate.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:34.960
Thanks for having me.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:35.840
Cheers, Johnny.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.639
Nice one.
