Episode 30: Shared & Micromobility in Cities (The #CitiesFirst Webinar)

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Let me get in the podcast. Welcome, everyone.
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My name is Scott Sheppard. I'm founder and CEO
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of the Cities First podcast and your host for
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today's live webinar on shared and micro mobility
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in cities. We're proud to partner with UMX Urban
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Mobility Explained, which offers free self paced
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courses, expert videos, webinars and in person
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trainings to help you up skill in urban mobility.
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Visit urban mobility courses. You and follow
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them on LinkedIn for the latest. Joining me today
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are three shared and micro -mobility leaders
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in the industry in the US and Canada. First,
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we have Darius Mason, who is a shared mobility
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specialist at the City of Detroit. Welcome, Darius.
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Glad to have you here. Nice to meet you. Great
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to be here. Next, we have Julie White, who is
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the Deputy Secretary for Multimodal Transportation
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at the North Carolina Department of Transportation.
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Welcome, Julie. Really happy to have you. Thanks,
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Scott. And then finally, we also have Venkatesh
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Gopal, who is the CEO of MoveMe, based in Vancouver,
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British Columbia, Canada. So welcome, Venkatesh.
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Glad to join. Thank you for the invite. All right.
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So today, we're just going to explore shared
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micromobility, collaboration, and policy innovation
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with some real world lessons from Detroit, North
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Carolina, Canada, and beyond, and future trends.
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So without further ado, let's just dive in. And
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our first topic is around shared in micro -mobility
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in cities. So shared micro -mobility is transforming
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how cities move, but there are important policy
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and access questions kind of that abound. So
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Julie, how is the state of North Carolina leveraging
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micro -mobility to create more connected and
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inclusive transportation? So at the DOT, one
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of the things we observed when scooters first
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came on the scene in the 2017 -ish range is that
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These innovations tend to happen in the big cities
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first. And then they work their way to like a
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Charlotte or Raleigh. So New York, LA and eventually
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there. But what has been really fun for us is
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when we actually are able to do the innovation
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with our smaller towns. So urban mobility can
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exist in a 25 or 50 ,000 person town in their
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urban core. So for us, it was the town of Wilson,
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North Carolina that called us and said, we've
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heard about this micro transit thing. We'd like
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to do it, but we don't know how. And so we partnered
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with them to help them figure out all the federal
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regulations, keeping it compliant with different
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federal regulations. And they were able to launch
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a highly successful first in a rural community
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microtransit product. We've done the same now
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with helping smaller towns like Gastonia, North
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Carolina, with e -scooter programs, smaller college
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towns. So I think what's really exciting is thinking
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about how shared and micro mobility can help
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even beyond the traditional large scale cities,
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as most of America still doesn't live in those
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communities, but in more rural and smaller towns.
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Excellent. Yeah, no, that's a great perspective
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and looking at a specific city that's not of
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the larger scale and kind of outside of what
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we would commonly associate with this type of
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motor mobility. So Darius, could you start by
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sharing Detroit's approach to shared? micromobility
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and what challenges you're facing in the city.
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So the city of Detroit is one of the largest
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cities that Julie was talking about. And one
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thing that we've seen what a problem is we brought
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in the scooters with no permit. The scooter company
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just came back in 2018 in that area and we finally
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got permitted. After watching other cities go
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through the permit process, we permitted in 2024
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2025 to start first permit. And one thing we've
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realized is the concentration we see of the scooter
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programs. was not in the interest of the residents
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of Detroit. The city of Detroit is 138 square
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miles, one of my favorite numbers, and the scooter
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program was only highlighting scooters within
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the Quarctown neighborhood, downtown, midtown,
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and New Center, which is only about 10 square
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miles tops of that 138 square miles. So I got
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hired, and my job was to... parse out and find
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ways to spread out because Detroit does have
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a lot of urban sprawl. We feel like we're the
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perfect test city to get all different types
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of scooter usage. And we've been able to leverage
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that with these companies and with our vendors.
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And just last year I was able to turn that 90
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% in those three neighborhoods of scooter usage
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or well over 90%, almost 95%. Now we turn that
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down to around the high 70s. Hopefully next year
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we'll get that more closer to 50 -50, but we
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know it's gonna be a longer challenge than over
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two years. So that's something I'm personally
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working day and night to get done. And while
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doing all that, ridership has actually went up
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among all of our vendors. So I'm proud to say
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that as well. And it's interesting you mentioned
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sprawl because yeah, that's not always associated
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with Detroit, but kind of the urban mix, the
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actual land use. and the density you know there's
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there's nodes of higher density development in
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the center and certain kind of neighborhood zones
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but it is a very uh you know uh horizontal city
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shall we say a city of freeways it's not just
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los angeles it's detroit actually i think detroit
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was one of the first cities of freeways so not
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to get off on a tangent but it's interesting
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because that plays into the mix in terms of what
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is the proper distribution as well as kind of
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interface between the operators for where micromobility
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can thrive. So that's some great points that
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you make specifically to Detroit. So thanks for
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sharing. Oh, can I follow up that really quick?
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Like, and that's why I always say like Detroit
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might be like for scooter providers might be
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the perfect city just because we have tourism
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because our city is so sprawling. The suburbs
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For instance, if you live out in a Canton or
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a Novi, you're traveling in and commuting in
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and then coming downtown. You may need micro
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ability just to get around downtown because it's
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almost as if you're going to a whole different
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city or a whole different state because of how
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far it is. It's kind of an unknown factor, Detroit.
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I think let's let's go down this rabbit hole
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for a second. My family's all from Michigan and
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whatnot, too. But it's interesting because it
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is a bit of an oxymoron because it is it's a
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older industrial city it has like I said the
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higher density but it has the kind of the Los
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Angeles you know Atlanta Phoenix suburban sprawl
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but of an earlier era back in the 19 teens and
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20s back before those cities were sprawling Detroit
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was you know when it was in its industrial prime
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and everything so I think that that is the perfect
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let's say test lab for what we're kind of talking
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about here in terms of maybe learning from what
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other cities circa 2017 -2018 tried and maybe
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didn't work so well. So let's hope that Detroit
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can get it right. So without further ado, Venkatesh,
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we're really eager to hear your perspective on
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this topic. Thanks. I'm just happy listening
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to Julie and Darius. This is like great perspectives
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of the state regulations, city regulations, bigger
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cities, smaller city. We have everything. already
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in this webinar. And I think from what we've
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seen at MoveMe, we've seen smaller cities, bigger
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cities, we work with cities, we work with operators.
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So that way it's a lot, a lot of our work is
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about feasibility and making sure that operations
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can stand on their own feet. Because we, as consultants,
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we started working with like car sharing and
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when it was like, a very novel idea 10 years,
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12 years back. And one, I wanted to take a step
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back and just give us a link between how shared
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mobility has been looked at evolutionally. And
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that way, I think for car sharing, it has been,
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cities are always very welcoming and very car
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friendly in terms of the infrastructure, the
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rules, the policy. So it was easier for car sharing
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companies to do what Darius mentioned scooter
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companies did. To just come, drop a few cars,
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start a car sharing company. And not many people
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noticed because the cars were still parked where
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other cars were supposed to be parked. People
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knew and everybody has this idea of you're not
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going to run. a car over a sidewalk or park it
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in a park or something like that. It's still
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a car rental. People are aware of it. So it was
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a known model, known shape, form factor, and
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people just took to it and car sharing models
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survived. What happened with Mike Mobrede is
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this is now a novel device. So it's a small one.
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People can have this perspective of they can
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do whatever they want. They can take it anywhere
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they want. It seems it has this illusion of being
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affordable. I still feel there are ways to go
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before. Micromobility becomes really affordable
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for a daily commute and that kind of use. But
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before the cities got onto like docked and dockless
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and that kind of definition, this is what we
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saw in every city. What Darius mentioned and
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what Julie also mentioned in other cities that
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has happened in North Carolina. Scooter companies
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coming in, throwing around some a few hundred
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scooters and then seeing how people react to
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it. While technically for a pilot, it seems OK,
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but we know how users behave to that kind of
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infrastructure -less device. And this is where
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I also feel it was important for bigger cities
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to jump on board and make sure that the permit
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system works and allows users to use it wisely
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or lay out a structure to to guide how to use.
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So, you know, they went with docked bike share
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first and then looked at how dockless could fit
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in this ecosystem. But to Julie's point, we also
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saw in Metro Vancouver and in BC, in Canada,
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smaller cities were pretty upbeat about welcoming
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shared micromobility more than the larger ones.
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Right. And I think in general, it worked for
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people who are traveling around BC, who are traveling
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around Canada, they went to smaller cities for
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tourism, for small vacation, all of that. And
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they experienced some of the scooter sharing
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there. So I think it was a good way of companies
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like Lime and everybody else to evaluate how
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Canadian cities are going to look like. And at
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the same time, Canadians to experience scooters
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and e -bikes. So we had The first of the scooter
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sharing that started in British Columbia province
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was in Kelowna and then we had e -bikes in North
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Vancouver. So Vancouver came just very recently
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with the whole scooter sharing program but before
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that it was all about the smaller cities. So
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there is a very good precedence of how smaller
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cities help adjust the regulations to a local
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you know, behavioral change. So our next question
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is for, actually we'll continue with you Venkatesh,
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I think this is a good segue. We're going to
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focus on public -private collaboration and policy
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innovation. And the question is around collaboration
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and policy are vital for success. So Venkatesh,
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maybe you can share some examples of innovative
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policies or partnerships that you've seen internationally.
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Yeah, some of them are about integrating some
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of them about are about laying out the land for
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you know experimentation and I think one of the
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policies that comes to mind when it comes to
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like the dos and the don'ts So let's go with
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the don'ts first. So the city of Kelowna went
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with like an innovative inclined more extreme
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innovation kind of a policy where they invited
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all scooter sharing companies to come start operating.
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That's it. So that was basically the invitation
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and scooter sharing companies obliged. So everybody
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came with their fleet, whoever wanted to have
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a chance to apply for bigger cities like Toronto,
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Calgary, and Vancouver in Canada. they all went
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in and poured their scooter fleets on the small
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city of Kelowna. And naturally, it became a mess.
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It was a huge problem for the city to deal with.
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City has their own problems in terms of staff
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and how they would manage. It was all chaos.
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It was new. Citizens started using it, but then
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also residents started complaining that there
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are so many scooters in front of my house and
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those kind of things. it became a big pool of
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mess with scooters, free -floating scooters,
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lying all around a city which has like about,
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at the time, it was like about 90 ,000 population.
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So it is a smaller city. So that was one of the
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things that we would advise cities not to go
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with. And I think most of the cities now, when
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they look at scooter sharing and micromobility
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in general, they're very, very cautious, which
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is a good thing. And so, and then flip over to
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something like Vancouver, right? So, and here's
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where it's the city of Vancouver. I love what
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we have here as an ecosystem. It's thriving.
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It makes sure that all the modes are operationally
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viable. But at the same time, I think from the
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scooter sharing perspective, it's one of the
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most creative ones to yet to see how the impact
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of that goes with the users because we have the
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first ever docked scooter sharing. Yeah, I think
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I'm defining it correctly. First ever docked
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scooter sharing program citywide. And we've already
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had a docked bike share. So this is basically
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a docked scooter sharing. right next to docked
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bike sharing kind of systems. And the pricing's
00:15:02.259 --> 00:15:06.220
also made sure that the e -scooters are equally
00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:09.879
priced as the e -bikes on subscription. So there
00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.100
are innovations coming up in terms of like making
00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:18.039
it affordable, making it organized, making it
00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.720
easy to regulate from the regulator side, but
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.440
also from the user side, we know where to expect.
00:15:23.539 --> 00:15:26.149
I mean, as a user, I know where to expect a scooter,
00:15:26.289 --> 00:15:28.169
where to expect a bike when there is a dock,
00:15:28.409 --> 00:15:31.730
other than a free floating. So coming back to
00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:35.289
the public -private partnerships, it needs to
00:15:35.289 --> 00:15:39.330
be localized. It needs to take a step towards
00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:46.850
how much of this innovation could be affordable
00:15:46.850 --> 00:15:49.350
from the operator side, because they have to
00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:51.830
make it reliably feasible for themselves. Otherwise,
00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:56.429
they will not stick around. And then on the other
00:15:56.429 --> 00:16:02.009
side, the operators also have to, if there is
00:16:02.009 --> 00:16:06.289
a loophole in regulations, it's less about how
00:16:06.289 --> 00:16:09.309
operators should be exploiting that. But operators
00:16:09.309 --> 00:16:12.210
should go ahead and, in my opinion, they should
00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:15.110
be advising the cities in a way that, OK, these
00:16:15.110 --> 00:16:18.350
are things that may fall apart. So there is a
00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:20.629
better way of managing this. Maybe we should
00:16:20.629 --> 00:16:23.870
do something like this. And I think that way,
00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:26.169
The public private partnerships needs to take
00:16:26.169 --> 00:16:29.610
that kind of step where both sides need to understand
00:16:29.610 --> 00:16:31.730
the cities and the regulators need to understand
00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:34.409
the feasibility side of things. And the operators
00:16:34.409 --> 00:16:39.409
need to understand the organizing and not creating
00:16:39.409 --> 00:16:43.129
a mess kind of side. And both are eventually
00:16:43.129 --> 00:16:46.529
only looking at ridership. So everybody is trying
00:16:46.529 --> 00:16:52.070
to grow multimodal ridership and promote a car
00:16:52.070 --> 00:16:55.129
-free lifestyle. and enable active transportation
00:16:55.129 --> 00:16:59.389
and walking and those kind of eco -friendly modes
00:16:59.389 --> 00:17:03.970
and healthier modes in our cities. So either
00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:07.289
ways, if systems don't thrive and they won't
00:17:07.289 --> 00:17:11.910
if public -private partnerships are not cemented
00:17:11.910 --> 00:17:15.069
as the foundation, if systems won't thrive, then
00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:18.009
we cannot expect a behavioral change anytime.
00:17:20.390 --> 00:17:22.849
Very strong considerations that we should all
00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:26.230
think about kind of going forward. So Julie,
00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:29.210
what public -private collaborations have you
00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:31.470
seen that have made a difference across North
00:17:31.470 --> 00:17:37.450
Carolina? So I'm going to pick up on what Venkanesh
00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:40.990
talked about a bit. I think it was July 2017.
00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:43.970
We call it the night the birds landed in Raleigh.
00:17:44.069 --> 00:17:46.460
It was this idea that they and just dropped a
00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:48.700
couple hundred scooters overnight rally with
00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:51.799
no warning to anyone. And our highway building,
00:17:52.180 --> 00:17:54.539
our DOT headquarters is right here in the heart
00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.319
of our downtown across the street from the State
00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.039
Capitol. A lot of one -way, you know, multi -lane
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.319
roads. And our engineers, I walked to the hallway
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.980
with our top engineers that morning as they're
00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:08.819
looking out their windows just in awe, terror,
00:18:09.339 --> 00:18:11.480
depending on what you saw, because they saw this.
00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:13.859
vehicle they've never seen before going the wrong
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:17.440
way on one ways on sidewalks on the road what
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.500
I saw was a Huge amount of population saying
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:25.400
this is interesting This fits a need I have right
00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.200
so if the statistic is something like 60 % of
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.720
vehicle travel takes place in less than a two
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.420
-mile trip and So when you live in the south
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:35.359
particularly three, you know three seasons a
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.559
year It's hot and so if you got to go a mile
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.490
mile and have two miles you might very well be
00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.509
getting in your car just for it's hot. And so
00:18:44.509 --> 00:18:48.210
I think the scooters define this space in our
00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:50.529
transportation network that was in need of a
00:18:50.529 --> 00:18:53.950
solution. And so I think the partnership comes
00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:59.009
in when these vendors and providers realize that
00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:00.630
when they do it in partnership with the city,
00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:02.369
the whole thing can be more successful. We spent
00:19:02.369 --> 00:19:04.369
a lot of initial time here in North Carolina
00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:08.009
thinking, how do we regulate these away? because
00:19:08.009 --> 00:19:09.710
of that approach that I think it was taken by
00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:11.910
the vendors. How do we legislate amount of existence?
00:19:12.470 --> 00:19:14.970
How do we ban them from our streets? And so I
00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:17.430
think the partnership comes from when the vendors
00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:19.809
get together with the communities and say, what's
00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:22.250
the need? Where does it belong? How is it gonna
00:19:22.250 --> 00:19:25.210
operate? And then we design something that's
00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:27.650
gonna work for the community. I think through
00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:30.069
the iterations of this we've seen, for example,
00:19:30.509 --> 00:19:32.710
People really hated seeing the scooters left
00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:34.789
around on the sidewalks blocking people's access
00:19:34.789 --> 00:19:37.230
to sidewalks. Now we're doing the communities,
00:19:37.289 --> 00:19:39.309
the cities are doing parking for rails. So they're
00:19:39.309 --> 00:19:42.009
coming up with a solution that helps the vendors
00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:44.470
succeed and stay in the market. So I think it's
00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:47.250
that kind of collaboration that Venkatesh talked
00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:50.309
about in figuring out what works and how do we
00:19:50.309 --> 00:19:55.569
keep the good and fix the bad. Absolutely. Yeah,
00:19:55.569 --> 00:19:59.480
and learning from kind of the earlier let's say
00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.440
successes and challenges in this kind of first
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.519
wave of micromobility. So Darius, maybe you can
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:09.480
shed some light and maybe now here in 2025, fast
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.819
forward like six, seven years, what are you guys
00:20:12.819 --> 00:20:14.859
kind of doing to address this problem and kind
00:20:14.859 --> 00:20:18.339
of leverage the opportunity of working together
00:20:18.339 --> 00:20:20.240
with the private sector now that the private
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.400
sector as we see has taken a shift in tone from
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.390
seven years ago and for lack of a better word,
00:20:28.069 --> 00:20:29.589
is collaborating more, whether they're forced
00:20:29.589 --> 00:20:32.730
to or whether they want to. So I think it's interesting
00:20:32.730 --> 00:20:36.190
to see maybe what you guys are doing. Firstly,
00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:40.029
one thing that's helped us with leveraging the
00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:42.210
private -public partnership is the fact that
00:20:42.210 --> 00:20:44.269
now the scooter companies have been around, and
00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:46.009
he's definitely in the major markets for at least
00:20:46.009 --> 00:20:50.549
seven years, leadership will on the public side
00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.880
know they're not going anywhere. Even the cities
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.400
that have gotten rid of scooter programs, most
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.579
of them normally bring them back. That's the
00:20:58.579 --> 00:20:59.940
trend we're seeing across the United States.
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:05.000
We saw it in Dallas, we saw it in Atlanta, so
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.359
that also gives us more... I'm lucky enough to
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.519
work in my mayor's office and not in my DOT,
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:14.440
where I can have a more poignant conversation
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:19.009
with vendors. And one thing we do is we want
00:21:19.009 --> 00:21:20.849
the vendors to be successful here as much as
00:21:20.849 --> 00:21:22.190
the vendors want to be successful here because
00:21:22.190 --> 00:21:25.089
of a successful financial scooter program for
00:21:25.089 --> 00:21:27.150
the companies also mean there's more scooters
00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:29.789
out here providing need and providing ridership.
00:21:31.049 --> 00:21:35.950
So we've been able to like carve out more business
00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:39.289
friendly RFPs. We'll probably talk about RFPs
00:21:39.289 --> 00:21:43.549
and that process later in this podcast, but allowing
00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:46.509
to have like we know no matter what the scooter
00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:49.269
program because we know the cities in them states
00:21:49.269 --> 00:21:52.549
won't buy 2000 scooters operate themselves so
00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:54.630
we know coming to the table that we already have
00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:59.390
to rely on these vendors so but we also know
00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:02.250
that we we control whether the vendors can be
00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:06.160
here or not so like having that break wall between
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.359
what the vendors can do and what the municipalities
00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:10.660
can do has given us a way to work in that middle
00:22:10.660 --> 00:22:13.339
ground in between the two fences and create something
00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:15.460
that the residents of Detroit and the tourists
00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:19.319
of Detroit can enjoy. It makes contract negotiations
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.720
going forward a little bit more exciting, honestly,
00:22:21.819 --> 00:22:25.460
just because now that scooters are this mainstay
00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.480
and I don't think anyone here believes they'll
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.849
ever go away. that now we can get a little bit
00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:33.289
more creative and get more ambitious when it
00:22:33.289 --> 00:22:35.710
comes to the scooter and the bike share programs
00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:39.849
within the city. Yeah, I think it's interesting
00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:43.289
because they're not going away. Even though we've
00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:46.210
seen different responses from cities, there's
00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:49.569
been kind of all ends of the spectrum in terms
00:22:49.569 --> 00:22:52.029
of kind of like you mentioned contract negotiations,
00:22:52.569 --> 00:22:55.670
how these permits are going to bid to tender.
00:22:56.399 --> 00:23:00.480
And then a lot of the new, let's say, processes
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.019
around concessions and a little bit of the trading
00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:06.180
involved between the cities and the operators.
00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:08.619
And I'm going to kind of dovetail on that. I
00:23:08.619 --> 00:23:13.019
want to add another kind of, let's say, insight
00:23:13.019 --> 00:23:15.099
to that. Maybe Venkatesh, maybe you can add to
00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.460
that in terms of some of the concessions you've
00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:19.359
seen, at least in British Columbia around the
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:23.079
Vancouver area. What has been some of your experiences
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.450
around how that has evolved maybe specifically
00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:29.829
to the Vancouver program and docked scooter sharing?
00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:36.190
Yeah, gladly. It's one of the things that I'll
00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:39.230
acknowledge before I talk about the Vancouver
00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:44.349
and the local programs that we've seen is the
00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:46.910
whole industry is involved, right? So it's not
00:23:46.910 --> 00:23:50.430
the players are not whether it's the public side
00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:53.259
or the private side. or even the users. We are
00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:56.500
not in 2017 and 2018 kind of space right now.
00:23:57.940 --> 00:24:02.079
And the industry is self -corrected. So compared
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:04.960
to the number of players and the number of services
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.099
we had back in 2018, even 2019, we have far less.
00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:13.440
So I think the industry itself is self -corrected,
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.890
and that way, the strongest survival of the fittest
00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:21.130
or whatever and but the the the ones who are
00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:23.890
the the operators which are resilient are surviving
00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:27.529
and they are there are so many more operators
00:24:27.529 --> 00:24:32.170
that we don't hear i mean it's not just i i'm
00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:35.309
every time i found find out about an operator
00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:40.769
for a specific city for a specific province in
00:24:40.769 --> 00:24:43.640
some country around the world. I'm surprised
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.660
that it's sometimes it's not many times it's
00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:50.000
not the lime or the bird or the void or the tear
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.420
right and they have and first sometimes I think
00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:55.440
that oh it should be like about you know 300
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.740
scooters or like a teeny tiny company somewhere
00:24:57.740 --> 00:25:00.440
but sometimes it's like 4 000 scooters with a
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:05.200
small company and that way being a consultant
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.720
we should be on top of so many things but I am
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.000
taken by surprise like I had no clue about that
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:17.200
company And so that way, when I look back in
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.480
the partnerships of how they've been working
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:21.859
with that particular city or that particular
00:25:21.859 --> 00:25:26.980
province, then it turns out like it's been very
00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:32.759
local. It's been a very happy relationship between
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.039
the cities and the operators. And they've been
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.779
there for a few years now. So that way, it's
00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:41.930
not like the cities are experimenting and it's
00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:45.269
just the past six months or something. There
00:25:45.269 --> 00:25:47.990
are systems that are thriving and it may not
00:25:47.990 --> 00:25:50.950
be the world famous ones, but at the same time
00:25:50.950 --> 00:25:55.069
to Darius's point, everybody knows scooters are
00:25:55.069 --> 00:25:59.730
not going anywhere. And the good thing about
00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:03.269
shared micromobility right now is it gives a
00:26:03.269 --> 00:26:07.349
very solid precedence to set behavioral change
00:26:07.349 --> 00:26:11.509
and behavioral expectations for whether you're
00:26:11.509 --> 00:26:15.250
sharing a scooter or owning one, right? So like
00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:17.569
or not, people are going to keep buying scooters
00:26:17.569 --> 00:26:20.690
and then riding. And we have, I mean, at least
00:26:20.690 --> 00:26:24.190
in BC and Canada, I've seen so many 12 year olds
00:26:24.190 --> 00:26:28.130
and 11 year olds riding e -scooters. And it's
00:26:28.130 --> 00:26:32.410
not legal. Everybody knows, but parents have
00:26:32.410 --> 00:26:34.750
given those scooters at birthday presents to
00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:38.089
their kids and they ride around, right? But at
00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:41.690
least with you know safety numbers kind of a
00:26:41.690 --> 00:26:45.430
situation where you have a if the scooters and
00:26:45.430 --> 00:26:49.190
the e -bikes are so common for people to see
00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:51.849
and for behavioral change to take place then
00:26:51.849 --> 00:26:54.089
everybody knows how to behave around them whether
00:26:54.089 --> 00:26:56.289
you're riding them or not whether you're in a
00:26:56.289 --> 00:26:58.609
car whether you're a pedestrian everybody expects
00:26:58.609 --> 00:27:01.230
what that's supposed to happen and then that
00:27:01.230 --> 00:27:04.789
way it's safety and it thrives to Darius's point
00:27:04.789 --> 00:27:09.589
so coming coming to the some of the affordability
00:27:09.589 --> 00:27:14.609
aspects and how the permit have been creative.
00:27:15.509 --> 00:27:19.369
So taking, for example, Vancouver, it's a long
00:27:19.369 --> 00:27:24.589
-term permit program. So Lime is the one which
00:27:24.589 --> 00:27:29.069
is operating in Vancouver. And it's like I said,
00:27:29.289 --> 00:27:33.150
it's the docked scooter share. As users you're
00:27:33.150 --> 00:27:36.369
supposed to be like taking and it's literally
00:27:36.369 --> 00:27:39.910
like unlocking the scooter from the docking system
00:27:39.910 --> 00:27:42.349
like a bike share, traditional bike share, taking
00:27:42.349 --> 00:27:45.410
the scooter out and then anywhere you can park
00:27:45.410 --> 00:27:50.329
as far as there is a docked system there. The
00:27:50.329 --> 00:27:53.009
two things that I love about this is one, it's
00:27:53.009 --> 00:27:55.670
a long -term contract for the operator. So that
00:27:55.670 --> 00:28:00.289
way, Lime is technically able to continue the
00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:04.890
contract for up to 15 years, but there are checkpoints
00:28:04.890 --> 00:28:10.789
every five years, or even maybe sooner. But that
00:28:10.789 --> 00:28:15.970
way, I like it because it takes away that painstaking
00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:21.920
process of not committing. or committing so much
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:25.319
of capital expenditure for a program, but then
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.519
not being sure if that's going to be used by
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:31.000
somebody else or they will tomorrow be asked
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.839
to just pack up and go. Because a doc system
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:40.420
and a lot of innovative pricing strategies that
00:28:40.420 --> 00:28:43.140
Lime is applying for the city of Vancouver, these
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.339
are the good things that they've been doing.
00:28:48.089 --> 00:28:51.329
something that would give, this will be only
00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:53.490
beneficial in the long term. So they need to
00:28:53.490 --> 00:28:55.750
stick around, they have invested in this market,
00:28:55.910 --> 00:28:58.309
they are investing in the market. And we need
00:28:58.309 --> 00:29:01.730
to give the users and line to get together and
00:29:01.730 --> 00:29:04.089
make sure that it is a thriving system. And if
00:29:04.089 --> 00:29:06.579
it is not, then. it is just going to be a waste
00:29:06.579 --> 00:29:09.619
of time, waste of energy, and a lot of waste
00:29:09.619 --> 00:29:13.160
in terms of investment. In terms of pricing,
00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:16.220
also the Lime system has a long -term pricing
00:29:16.220 --> 00:29:19.759
in terms of an annual subscription. So I as a
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.660
user can take an annual subscription for Lime
00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:26.119
scooters, and the pricing for permanent rides
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.140
for my scooter would be equal to the e -bikes
00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:33.119
that I could rent from a docked city bike share
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.220
program. it's city bike share program is not
00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:40.640
the I mean it's not it's not the cheapest but
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.400
it's far more affordable than a pay as you go
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:45.519
kind of a line scooter or line e -bike program
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.339
elsewhere right so instead of a 40 cent per minute
00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:51.700
it's I think about like 19 cents or 15 cents
00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:55.339
a minute so it's quite subsidized and that way
00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:59.019
I think the the other the the carrot that has
00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:01.259
been given is you know you you can stick around
00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:03.940
for longer and I think that assurance for an
00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:05.920
operator allows them to come into the market.
00:30:06.140 --> 00:30:08.819
So they are like, OK, we don't have to think
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:13.319
about making profits in 12 months. We are thinking
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:15.559
about making this as a profitable market over
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.140
the three years or five years or something because
00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:20.960
they know they are here. And that's a good thing.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:23.400
The other problem with that kind of an aspect
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:28.299
is it's a super focused program into the city
00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:31.700
of Vancouver. And that's where I think more than
00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:35.099
me, maybe Scott, you, Julie, and Darius, you
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:39.859
would also be able to add to this the inter -jurisdictional
00:30:39.859 --> 00:30:44.920
dynamics that happen for our mobility needs.
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:48.579
Darius mentioned about how people move from the
00:30:48.579 --> 00:30:50.380
suburbs to the downtown, and then now they don't
00:30:50.380 --> 00:30:52.319
want to use their cars, they give the scooters.
00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:56.980
Now, in the city of Vancouver, I should be able
00:30:56.980 --> 00:30:59.380
to ride across the border. Now, these are like
00:30:59.380 --> 00:31:01.799
invisible borders. These are municipality borders,
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:06.960
but as a user, I don't see that my friend or
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:12.400
my kid's play date is in Burnaby and not in Vancouver.
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:16.140
So when I'm crossing the boundary between Vancouver
00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:20.200
and Burnaby, it's basically a road that my daughter's
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.500
friend lives across. And for us, if we are not
00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:26.319
able to use the bike share system or the car
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.779
share system, then that's a pain. That forces
00:31:31.779 --> 00:31:35.380
me to either drive or think about some other
00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:38.220
way to get there. So if there is no public transit
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:40.519
or something. And that's where I think the behavioral
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:44.160
change is then asked to cut off. And then now
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.559
you're asking me to look at my transportation
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.799
behavior in silos. And I think that's one of
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.220
the things that needs to be innovated in terms
00:31:54.220 --> 00:31:57.920
of permits to look at regional and inter -jurisdictional
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.819
dynamics. And yeah, I will leave it there. And
00:32:01.819 --> 00:32:04.619
hopefully, we have other examples from North
00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:13.000
Carolina and Michigan to look at that. points
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.799
there that Venkatesh made the city of Raleigh
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.160
recently did an analysis on their bike share
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.180
program and I thought this was really interesting
00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:23.480
the scooter system because the permitting pays
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:27.079
the city right so it's a city revenue source
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:29.740
the bike share system because it's so much more
00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:32.380
expensive the city was subsidizing so they found
00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:35.700
that they were subsidizing the bike share to
00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:38.140
a detune of about thirty five thousand dollars
00:32:38.140 --> 00:32:42.450
a month and the scooters they were making about
00:32:42.450 --> 00:32:45.569
$7 ,500 a year. So I think it's a really interesting
00:32:45.569 --> 00:32:47.829
dynamic. So the city is piloting. They're going
00:32:47.829 --> 00:32:50.450
from docked bike share to undocked bike share
00:32:50.450 --> 00:32:52.970
without a public subsidy. So it'll be interesting
00:32:52.970 --> 00:32:56.029
to see what happens with that model when they
00:32:56.029 --> 00:32:58.809
move to that. And also, to Ben Kanesha's point
00:32:58.809 --> 00:33:01.329
about these boundaries and borders, when a lot
00:33:01.329 --> 00:33:03.589
of these were first introduced, the college campus,
00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:06.509
like NC State and Raleigh, had its own permit
00:33:06.509 --> 00:33:09.170
and its own system and a geofence accordingly.
00:33:09.269 --> 00:33:12.069
And then the city had a different one. the university
00:33:12.069 --> 00:33:14.230
kids want to get from the campus to something
00:33:14.230 --> 00:33:16.549
in the city that invisible boundary right that
00:33:16.549 --> 00:33:18.970
geofence wouldn't allow the trip and so it's
00:33:18.970 --> 00:33:21.289
been really good to see the innovation the recognition
00:33:21.289 --> 00:33:24.150
of where people want to go and figure out how
00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:26.809
do we allow those cross boundaries so we've definitely
00:33:26.809 --> 00:33:29.309
seen some real progress particularly in the college
00:33:29.309 --> 00:33:34.059
city relationships in that space. Yeah, well
00:33:34.059 --> 00:33:36.579
Darius, I have some thoughts too, but Darius,
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:38.779
maybe you can give us some perspectives in Detroit
00:33:38.779 --> 00:33:43.200
on the same topic. Oh, jurisdiction. If you guys
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:47.160
don't know, we have two enclosed, like within
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.480
the city limits of Detroit, like they're totally
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:51.900
surrounded by the city limits of Detroit suburbs.
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.480
They have their own government, their own municipalities,
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.380
their own everything, and they're also geofenced
00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:00.609
out of the school program. So like if you go
00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:03.009
up our main street, what were you actually go
00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:05.109
through both of those cities and scooters do
00:34:05.109 --> 00:34:10.070
cut off at them invisible boundaries. And it
00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:12.380
literally like. Those cities are called Hamtramck
00:34:12.380 --> 00:34:14.639
and Highland Park and they're their own municipalities,
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.840
own governments, own everything. One thing I'm
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:18.820
trying to do and this is something that this
00:34:18.820 --> 00:34:20.380
conversation coming up right now is kind of perfect.
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.880
I'm trying to like find a way to make it more
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.820
regionalized. The scooter programs or any provider
00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:28.519
that comes and makes a hub in Detroit can also
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.360
like instantly make a contract with those two,
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.860
definitely those two enclosed suburbs because
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.659
riders and I've seen this with my eyes. are trying
00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:40.960
to go to a friend's house in Hamtramck and they
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.800
are dragging a scooter along to drag it back
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.320
so that they can take it to their house on the
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:50.199
north end is very depressing. Honestly, just
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:52.139
seeing as a person who runs the scooter program,
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.500
like, oh, that is a huge problem for people.
00:34:55.940 --> 00:34:58.800
And not just that, we also have a derp of vehicles
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.039
being stuck out there. And then the rebalancing
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.699
process becomes even longer because the providers
00:35:04.699 --> 00:35:07.380
have to go out there and then drive them back
00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:09.739
into city limits and then turn them on to be
00:35:09.739 --> 00:35:12.829
rebalanced. It's a... It's been a pain in the
00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.309
headache. It's been a pain in the headache for
00:35:14.309 --> 00:35:17.309
me personally Um, and also I want to expand it
00:35:17.309 --> 00:35:19.369
to the northern and western suburbs as well.
00:35:19.710 --> 00:35:21.909
Um Not eastern because either is an entirely
00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:27.590
different country. That's but No, you mean like
00:35:27.590 --> 00:35:31.989
gross point that area yeah, um girls point in
00:35:31.989 --> 00:35:35.289
like East southeastern is with Windsor because
00:35:35.289 --> 00:35:40.219
Bird used to be both Windsor in Detroit. So Yeah,
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:41.920
our fleet would actually some of our fleet would
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.500
be in Detroit and we'd have to tell the the Detroit
00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:46.300
bird team. Hey, could you please go get them
00:35:46.300 --> 00:35:48.579
vehicles, please? Because you're below minimum.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.860
And they're like, I'm not crossing the bridge.
00:35:52.460 --> 00:35:54.840
Exactly. Like, oh, I'm looking at the map behind
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:56.420
you right now. So that's actually a good reference.
00:35:57.219 --> 00:36:01.139
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of jurisdictional boundaries.
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:04.820
Yeah, I'm I am native of Los Angeles, as you
00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:08.840
can imagine, Los Angeles County is over. 120
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.800
municipalities, 11 million people, larger than
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.780
many nations in the world. And if you guys ever
00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:19.480
seen a map, the actual city boundaries of the
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:22.000
city of Los Angeles make no sense at all. So
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.460
if you can imagine operating a shared scooter
00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:27.519
program in LA, whether it's geofencing or not,
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.780
and having a diametrically opposed, let's say,
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.320
mandate of permitting within jurisdictional boundaries,
00:36:35.690 --> 00:36:38.030
Contradictory to natural boundaries and the natural
00:36:38.030 --> 00:36:39.869
boundaries in LA would be on the north You have
00:36:39.869 --> 00:36:43.070
the San Gabriel Mountains on the west in the
00:36:43.070 --> 00:36:45.070
south you had the Pacific Ocean So you have these
00:36:45.070 --> 00:36:47.710
natural kind of regional boundaries where could
00:36:47.710 --> 00:36:51.050
be quite amenable quite natural for these different
00:36:51.050 --> 00:36:54.610
mobility options, but you know let's say the
00:36:54.610 --> 00:36:58.269
land use the politics and many other factors
00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:00.730
over the last century make it quite challenging
00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:05.059
to implement a lot of these, you know, new mobility
00:37:05.059 --> 00:37:08.159
options. So it's a challenge, but an opportunity.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.480
One thing I think that resonated with me, Venkatesh,
00:37:11.539 --> 00:37:13.139
I know we're going down the rabbit hole here,
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.739
is you mentioned about kind of demand and kind
00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.059
of building, let's say, you know, a kind of a
00:37:20.059 --> 00:37:23.440
captive audience, enough of a critical mass,
00:37:23.500 --> 00:37:25.719
I think you mentioned, of people that would start
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.400
using and it becomes like a snowball, starts
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.500
building momentum. So I wanna get a little more
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.059
controversial now. This is a little off topic,
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:34.880
but let's talk about it. The elephant in the
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.219
room is some of the cities that have banned scooters
00:37:37.219 --> 00:37:39.119
and have went against the natural progression.
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:41.179
They went against the critical mass and they
00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:43.420
went against consumer preference. And in this
00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:45.860
case, the city I'm gonna talk about, this consumer
00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:49.519
preference are primarily in the generation of
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.679
Gen Z and millennials. And that city is Paris,
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:56.039
France. So they kneecapped and they basically
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.860
banned scooters throughout the city. as we all
00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.280
know, in April of 2023. That's when they had
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:04.300
their kind of popularity vote and then the permit
00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:07.579
expired I believe it was in August of 2023. So
00:38:07.579 --> 00:38:09.719
let's talk about that for a moment and get your
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:13.760
guys thoughts because how is it that the political
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:18.320
will or forces or people in City Hall or other
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:23.340
stakeholders may let's say act in contrary to
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:26.340
what the will of the people and the consumers
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.900
in terms of, in the case of Paris, a wildly popular
00:38:29.900 --> 00:38:32.659
program, albeit it has naturally progressed more
00:38:32.659 --> 00:38:35.760
into kind of docked and dockless bike share in
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.360
Paris. So they've had a good, they've had a soft
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.519
landing, shall we say, after canceling the scooters,
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:45.039
but it wasn't without its challenges. And perhaps
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.300
it could have been done a lot differently and
00:38:47.300 --> 00:38:51.019
a bit more democratically. So whoever wants to
00:38:51.019 --> 00:39:03.559
join on that one. I'll go first. Go ahead. Okay,
00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:07.300
I'll go first. Sorry. One thing that we are seeing
00:39:07.300 --> 00:39:10.500
here in Detroit is different stakeholders have
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.579
their own different agendas of where they want
00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:15.059
the school to program to be or not be. Like there
00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:17.619
are certain neighborhoods that have who requested
00:39:17.619 --> 00:39:19.599
that they don't want scooters on certain streets.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.639
Geo -fencing off a street just because of preference
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:25.360
is never going to happen in the city of Detroit.
00:39:26.300 --> 00:39:28.480
I told the neighborhood associations that if
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:30.519
there's a safety reason, like it's a pedestrian
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:32.239
only street, then we can have that conversation.
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.940
But if it's just because the business owners
00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:37.380
don't like to see the young kids driving up and
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:41.139
down on scooters, that's unacceptable to me.
00:39:41.829 --> 00:39:45.250
Right exactly like we've like we've run into
00:39:45.250 --> 00:39:47.250
problems from different departments within the
00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:49.150
city that also want to limit scooters like currently
00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:53.730
we have a 10 p .m. To 3 a .m. curfew on the weekends
00:39:53.730 --> 00:39:57.030
that it's also this Undoable for a lot of people
00:39:57.030 --> 00:39:59.190
that go to events on the weekends like if a basketball
00:39:59.190 --> 00:40:01.610
game happens on a Saturday night The game ends
00:40:01.610 --> 00:40:04.210
at 1130 now people can't use scooters. That's
00:40:04.210 --> 00:40:07.010
something that has been a huge issue here Something
00:40:07.010 --> 00:40:09.289
we're trying to rectify before the next basketball
00:40:09.289 --> 00:40:13.469
hockey season But yeah, like there's been so
00:40:13.469 --> 00:40:15.389
many stakeholders with so many different reasons.
00:40:15.389 --> 00:40:19.489
That's why the Paris Situation is a bit alarming
00:40:19.489 --> 00:40:22.530
to see that the entire government banned scooters
00:40:22.530 --> 00:40:24.889
off of just one or two different stakeholders
00:40:24.889 --> 00:40:28.869
And found the justification for it because it
00:40:28.869 --> 00:40:31.309
is bucking against a trend even the cities that
00:40:31.309 --> 00:40:34.610
banned them back during the wild wild west days
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.239
the pre pandemic and pandemic, they all come
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:40.699
back. Like we've seen Dallas bring scooters back.
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.000
We've seen Atlanta bring scooters back. I think
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:46.219
we've seen in the United States, almost every
00:40:46.219 --> 00:40:48.079
city that banned scooters bring them back, except
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:50.739
probably the city, the cities in Pennsylvania.
00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:52.179
And that's because that's a state ordinance.
00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:57.840
So seeing Paris do it definitely over in Europe,
00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:00.760
which is much more micro mobility, micro mobility
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.110
friendly than the United States. Just seeing
00:41:04.110 --> 00:41:06.730
that is alarming on our end as something that
00:41:06.730 --> 00:41:09.409
like we're also Talking to providers because
00:41:09.409 --> 00:41:11.690
we're in the middle of procuring our next permit
00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:13.769
Talking to providers letting them know that as
00:41:13.769 --> 00:41:16.030
long as the office of mobility innovation exists
00:41:16.030 --> 00:41:19.030
the scooter program will exist so you guys don't
00:41:19.030 --> 00:41:22.530
have to worry about us caving to a Greek town
00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:27.210
or just one specific stakeholder. Yeah. Yeah
00:41:27.210 --> 00:41:30.929
Maybe Venkatesh wanna come back or Julie. Yeah,
00:41:31.070 --> 00:41:36.110
Julie, I guess So I'll share, I had a electric,
00:41:36.150 --> 00:41:38.210
I was early adopter of an electric bike. I bought
00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:42.670
one back years and years ago and took it with
00:41:42.670 --> 00:41:45.929
me on a vacation to Hilton Head Island. Great
00:41:45.929 --> 00:41:48.969
place to bicycle, very bike friendly community.
00:41:49.030 --> 00:41:51.909
I was very excited and I was riding my electric
00:41:51.909 --> 00:41:55.800
bike and. Gentlemen stopped on the road to yell
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:58.639
at me out his window. He was he said those are
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:00.639
not allowed here. Those are banned here and I
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:03.460
didn't know and I said, oh my gosh, I'm I'm so
00:42:03.460 --> 00:42:06.460
sorry. I didn't know and he you know, he's wagging
00:42:06.460 --> 00:42:08.860
his finger at me and he he said, you know, they're
00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:12.139
dangerous. People don't operate improperly. They
00:42:12.139 --> 00:42:15.699
go too fast on him and I was struck that his
00:42:15.699 --> 00:42:18.900
problem was not with the tech but with the operator,
00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:23.070
right? So. I don't operate it wildly in an inappropriate
00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:25.769
speeds. It helps me be able that my children
00:42:25.769 --> 00:42:27.909
bike and they can go many more miles than I can.
00:42:27.929 --> 00:42:30.869
So it enables me to go as many miles as my family
00:42:30.869 --> 00:42:34.630
can, because I'm not a teenager anymore. And
00:42:34.630 --> 00:42:37.369
so I kind of think about the communities that
00:42:37.369 --> 00:42:40.389
rear up, I think often have concerns about the
00:42:40.389 --> 00:42:44.829
way in which the unit is operated. And they have
00:42:44.829 --> 00:42:47.550
issue with the safety concerns. And I think those
00:42:47.550 --> 00:42:51.230
are often legitimate concerns. Um, we saw last
00:42:51.230 --> 00:42:53.530
year, I think there was a jam up, uh, article
00:42:53.530 --> 00:42:57.610
about ER visits are up from scooters and e -bikes.
00:42:57.949 --> 00:43:00.250
Um, and what we see a lot of is people wearing,
00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:03.630
uh, operating without helmets. We see, uh, especially
00:43:03.630 --> 00:43:05.789
young people are now getting their own e -bikes.
00:43:05.869 --> 00:43:07.650
Their parents are buying from, and these are
00:43:07.650 --> 00:43:11.110
30 mile an hour e -bikes that, you know, 13,
00:43:11.150 --> 00:43:14.570
14, 15 year olds are riding. Um, they don't necessarily
00:43:14.570 --> 00:43:16.989
know how to operate them safely. And so I think
00:43:16.989 --> 00:43:20.469
there's. something you said about how do we think
00:43:20.469 --> 00:43:24.110
about how do we train operators on the safe way
00:43:24.110 --> 00:43:26.969
to use them, where they belong in the road space,
00:43:27.190 --> 00:43:29.449
at what speeds they belong, you know, what is
00:43:29.449 --> 00:43:32.670
e -assist versus, you know, a fully 35 mile an
00:43:32.670 --> 00:43:35.550
hour vehicle. I think there's still with any
00:43:35.550 --> 00:43:37.590
innovation, there's a period in which you have
00:43:37.590 --> 00:43:39.630
to learn how to use these things appropriately.
00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:41.809
And I think that's the period we're still in.
00:43:42.190 --> 00:43:45.460
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. And it's kind of a a parallel
00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:48.900
path to the maturity in the market as well. And
00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:50.780
there's many learnings that we're kind of taking
00:43:50.780 --> 00:43:53.619
from that. But Venkatesh, maybe back to you,
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:57.099
this is your insight would kind of spark this
00:43:57.099 --> 00:43:59.559
dovetail question. So maybe you can kind of bring
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:02.219
us back full circle here and where I kind of
00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:06.420
alluded to the Paris example. Yeah, I'm happy
00:44:06.420 --> 00:44:09.320
to hear what Julie and Darius just mentioned.
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.170
So I think from Darius's point, I know it needs
00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:19.650
to be like, we wish that all cities had an OMI,
00:44:19.650 --> 00:44:23.769
right? But it's, yeah, we are not lucky enough
00:44:23.769 --> 00:44:26.409
to have that. So I think that kind of a, you
00:44:26.409 --> 00:44:29.650
know, strong belief in, it's not going anywhere,
00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:32.989
we got this, we're gonna take care of this kind
00:44:32.989 --> 00:44:37.989
of a attitude is we are seeing that in. cities,
00:44:38.289 --> 00:44:41.150
but also municipalities have their own challenges
00:44:41.150 --> 00:44:44.030
of how big this team is and what kind of voice
00:44:44.030 --> 00:44:47.329
they have in terms of the council and get it
00:44:47.329 --> 00:44:51.489
approved and those kind of things. I think it's
00:44:51.489 --> 00:44:56.989
a slippery slope for them to watch for. And then
00:44:56.989 --> 00:44:59.710
complaints like these, like how Julie mentioned
00:44:59.710 --> 00:45:07.559
about users not abiding by what the safety regulation
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:11.000
should be. Right. And this takes me to like,
00:45:11.019 --> 00:45:13.360
you know, what happened to, you know, we used
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.119
to have drones all the everywhere else and everybody
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:18.340
used to just buy drones and start flying them
00:45:18.340 --> 00:45:21.179
out. Now they don't. So there are rules around
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:24.139
that people have enforcements and, you know,
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:26.519
even from the neighborhood people, everybody's
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.340
like talking to you when you fly a drone. I don't.
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.739
But if somebody did, then you would just be like
00:45:32.739 --> 00:45:34.820
there is a lot of like friction and deterrent.
00:45:35.670 --> 00:45:38.550
behavior there. And I think in scooters and e
00:45:38.550 --> 00:45:44.269
-bikes, it's giving some space to correct that.
00:45:44.889 --> 00:45:47.590
And that way, some kind of these feedbacks and
00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:51.030
all of that is pushing people towards like, oh,
00:45:51.030 --> 00:45:53.250
maybe I should be using a helmet. If I use a
00:45:53.250 --> 00:45:55.250
helmet, nobody is going to ask me about this.
00:45:55.329 --> 00:45:59.869
If I don't ride on this street in this way, then
00:45:59.869 --> 00:46:02.650
nobody is going to ask me about something else.
00:46:04.010 --> 00:46:06.369
Not to say that we should be moving scooters
00:46:06.369 --> 00:46:08.769
away from certain streets or even communities
00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:13.630
or even cities, but I think we need to create
00:46:13.630 --> 00:46:17.250
places and create a space for them. And there
00:46:17.250 --> 00:46:21.409
needs to be a defined space of how scooters are
00:46:21.409 --> 00:46:24.329
used. So in terms of infrastructure, in terms
00:46:24.329 --> 00:46:28.349
of policy, in terms of safety, there is so much
00:46:28.349 --> 00:46:32.010
to do in terms of educating the users, making
00:46:32.010 --> 00:46:35.059
sure that operators focus on the right things
00:46:35.059 --> 00:46:40.920
and not just about their rides per scooter per
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:44.099
day kind of a metric. I mean, sure, we know that
00:46:44.099 --> 00:46:47.719
the service providers need to focus on that for
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:49.519
their own feasibility. They have a business to
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:55.099
run. But at the same time, that's a causal KPI,
00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:59.980
if I may. for what the riders feel like. So the
00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:03.440
rider comfort, the rider safety, the non -rider
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:06.380
safety and comfort is important to take into
00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:09.199
consideration before we get into the nitty -gritty
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:11.960
of how many rides did you have per day per scooter,
00:47:12.219 --> 00:47:13.800
and is it going to be feasible, and whatnot.
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:20.360
And even for cities, I think some of the cities
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:23.860
just went ahead and opened up the gates for like,
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:27.179
OK. some kind of a math calculation and said
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:31.280
that, okay, we would welcome about 4 ,000 scooters
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:34.579
in our city. I think that those decisions need
00:47:34.579 --> 00:47:38.260
to be questioned a couple of times internally.
00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:46.679
Do we think we can handle 4 ,000 scooters? What
00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:49.099
role service providers will play in terms of
00:47:49.099 --> 00:47:54.309
enforcing? any of the service providers to provide
00:47:54.309 --> 00:47:57.489
if any city had a problem around safety. They
00:47:57.489 --> 00:48:01.389
say, OK, now we need the service providers to
00:48:01.389 --> 00:48:04.110
provide helmets. Sure, they'll provide helmets.
00:48:04.449 --> 00:48:06.289
But who's going to make sure that the users use
00:48:06.289 --> 00:48:09.349
them? There are so many scooters and e -bike
00:48:09.349 --> 00:48:13.389
programs that people don't use helmets. And it
00:48:13.389 --> 00:48:16.389
may be for a bad hair kind of a concern. It may
00:48:16.389 --> 00:48:20.170
be for hygiene concern, whatever. But users are
00:48:20.170 --> 00:48:24.179
not easy. to change their behavior to use something
00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:28.760
like that. And that could be a parameter for
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.900
a city to like then, oh, scooter sharing companies
00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:35.179
do not enforce or do not make sure that riders
00:48:35.179 --> 00:48:38.639
wear helmets all the time. And that's why this
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:40.519
is not safe and that's why we are going to buy
00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:43.380
them. Come on, how's that going to be feasible?
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.440
It's a user behavior which needs to be focused
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:49.820
and not the tech. So how much ever tech... as
00:48:49.820 --> 00:48:51.480
a service provider, they will provide, if they
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:54.699
provide the fanciest helmets, if they provide
00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:59.579
the helmet selfies, which automatically with
00:48:59.579 --> 00:49:03.059
AI, they evaluate whether you're, they verify
00:49:03.059 --> 00:49:05.179
whether you're wearing a helmet or not. Not all
00:49:05.179 --> 00:49:07.300
the scooter providers can provide that. So are
00:49:07.300 --> 00:49:10.840
you, is the regulation meant for only the big
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:15.260
VC funded operators like service providers? It
00:49:15.260 --> 00:49:18.369
shouldn't be. you should be giving way to local
00:49:18.369 --> 00:49:21.949
providers to stick around and make this a thriving
00:49:21.949 --> 00:49:25.570
business. Secondly, the sidewalk writing. There
00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:28.309
is so much tech involved. There is so much of
00:49:28.309 --> 00:49:30.829
hue and cry about sidewalk writing. We are not
00:49:30.829 --> 00:49:33.610
in this place. I don't know if we would ever
00:49:33.610 --> 00:49:36.710
be in that space where the accuracy would be
00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:43.610
as we want it as regulators. It's only going
00:49:43.610 --> 00:49:47.590
to create other issues if I ride very close to
00:49:47.590 --> 00:49:50.469
a sidewalk because most of the shadows or bike
00:49:50.469 --> 00:49:53.030
lanes, guess where they are? Right next to the
00:49:53.030 --> 00:49:57.010
sidewalk. So when I ride on a bike lane, there
00:49:57.010 --> 00:50:00.809
is a chance that my GPS bounce in and off, on
00:50:00.809 --> 00:50:05.289
and off, and then that way I may have a sudden
00:50:05.289 --> 00:50:08.989
halt in my scooter. It could be a safety concern
00:50:08.989 --> 00:50:11.869
or it could just be a comfort problem. Now you're
00:50:11.869 --> 00:50:14.780
deterring me as a user from using. these shared
00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:17.519
ones, but I'm still going to go and buy a scooter
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:19.079
because I like the scooter. I'm going to buy
00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.199
a scooter and ride the 35 km per hour scooter
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.500
on the street because I can. Right. So I think
00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:28.659
the regulations need to be and Paris coming back
00:50:28.659 --> 00:50:33.079
to your point, Scott, Paris did not ban own scooters.
00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:37.699
They banned shared ones. And I went like, come
00:50:37.699 --> 00:50:39.559
on, this is like if you had safety concerns,
00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:42.139
there are so many more issues with like own scooters.
00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:45.000
So it's basically like the regular the regulations
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.119
just brushing off, like if it is own scooters,
00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:52.599
it's not my responsibility kind of a thing. And
00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.539
this is where I think cities did not, some of
00:50:55.539 --> 00:50:59.260
the cities have not taken it the right way. If
00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:01.900
there is a, I mean, Paris has enough options
00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:05.039
to move around, so that way it's all right. But
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:07.539
when it comes to like banning scooters, yeah,
00:51:07.699 --> 00:51:11.679
it's, you've had so many years of making that
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.139
behavioral change. take that away, now you're
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:18.360
even deterring people from using anything else
00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:24.539
that comes into the city. It's cherry picking,
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.619
as we say. It wasn't a full writ large, let's
00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:32.659
say ban, and it was certainly targeting a certain
00:51:32.659 --> 00:51:36.559
offer and profile. So I think that that's kind
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:38.599
of interesting learnings that we've taken from
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:42.750
a particular city and how this can be brought
00:51:42.750 --> 00:51:45.949
forward in terms of something that is a little
00:51:45.949 --> 00:51:49.289
bit more comprehensive. So just to kind of wrap
00:51:49.289 --> 00:51:51.309
up our discussion here, let's kind of look at
00:51:51.309 --> 00:51:54.389
the future outlook. And to kind of finish off,
00:51:54.590 --> 00:51:56.889
what emerging innovations or policies excite
00:51:56.889 --> 00:52:00.190
you most in making transportation more accessible
00:52:00.190 --> 00:52:02.190
and connected? So let's start with Darius. This
00:52:02.190 --> 00:52:05.719
is the final round of questions. All right. What
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:08.199
I'm most excited for is two things that I'm personally
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:12.119
working on right now. One is neighborhood scale
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:15.500
mobility hubs. We just had a workshop for the
00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:18.360
term mobility hubs with the stakeholders in the
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.000
community and with people. And one thing that
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:25.179
my urban planning brain loved was the fact that
00:52:25.179 --> 00:52:28.000
the people didn't want big transit centers. They
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:35.500
wanted small small very attainable within like
00:52:35.500 --> 00:52:37.219
we have seven council districts here they said
00:52:37.219 --> 00:52:39.159
they wanted at least three in each council district
00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:42.940
certain miles apart where it's small it's no
00:52:42.940 --> 00:52:45.500
bigger than the entire space including parking
00:52:45.500 --> 00:52:48.000
lot for each e -charge and would be the probably
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.579
the same size as a gas station at the very most
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:53.199
they wanted a small be able to have all the options
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:55.800
there have a place for people to sit and wait
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:57.880
on the bus and also a place where people can
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:01.329
like get that scooter once they get off the bus
00:53:01.329 --> 00:53:04.570
or once they go to the mobility hub person vending,
00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:06.650
get the scooter and go home on that last mile.
00:53:06.690 --> 00:53:09.269
That's exactly what they want, which I didn't
00:53:09.269 --> 00:53:11.070
think that the general public would actually
00:53:11.070 --> 00:53:13.349
want. I thought that was just my urban plannerese
00:53:13.349 --> 00:53:15.110
saying, oh, this is what people will love. But
00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:17.110
they actually hear that without them being coached
00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:19.030
into it. And when they just saw the different
00:53:19.030 --> 00:53:20.869
options, they were like, we don't need another
00:53:20.869 --> 00:53:23.869
big transit center where everything is. We want
00:53:23.869 --> 00:53:25.869
small things in our neighborhood that represent
00:53:25.869 --> 00:53:28.190
our neighborhoods. That's something that's been
00:53:28.190 --> 00:53:31.389
very encouraging for me. And then the second
00:53:31.389 --> 00:53:34.170
thing is a pipe in the sky dream right now, but
00:53:34.170 --> 00:53:37.730
I'm hoping to get this done in 2026, is a mobility
00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:39.829
wallet. Like hearing the subscription model,
00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:42.110
like Venkatesh has already brought up, having
00:53:42.110 --> 00:53:45.550
that subscription model of a line or of a company.
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:48.539
scooter companies and having that built into
00:53:48.539 --> 00:53:51.500
our D dot in our smart transportation systems
00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:55.039
and people to go on one one app and just do a
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:56.719
Mobility wallet or subscription model so they
00:53:56.719 --> 00:53:59.780
can get the scooter trips They want or the pricing
00:53:59.780 --> 00:54:03.199
had that locked in so that they're not spending
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:07.780
Exorbitant prices just to get around our city
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.099
I would love to get our people mover involved
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.360
in that and just have like a one -stop app or
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:16.340
a one -stop website where you can get to any
00:54:16.340 --> 00:54:18.059
of the different types of modes of transportation
00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:20.980
and it'll already be integrated in. I feel like
00:54:20.980 --> 00:54:22.900
all of the companies I've mentioned got the APIs
00:54:22.900 --> 00:54:25.139
for that. It's just getting everybody on board
00:54:25.139 --> 00:54:27.019
in the same room and agreeing to it. That is
00:54:27.019 --> 00:54:32.179
something I will be working on all 2026. Yeah,
00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:35.380
well, that sounds to me like mass mobility as
00:54:35.380 --> 00:54:38.599
a service, which has had its opportunities and
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:40.860
challenges, but maybe Detroit can get it right.
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:43.880
So I wish you the best of luck on that. Or we're
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:46.179
talking about some form of mobility as a service.
00:54:47.139 --> 00:54:49.260
But let's see. And maybe in this third or fourth
00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:54.940
wave, we've had enough, let's say, lessons learned
00:54:54.940 --> 00:54:59.300
that it becomes a lot more pragmatic. Julie,
00:54:59.579 --> 00:55:01.800
what are your thoughts and kind of the look ahead?
00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:05.659
Sure. Now, Darius really hit the nail on the
00:55:05.659 --> 00:55:08.440
head. Part of my responsibilities here are across
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:10.500
all the modes. So I've got ferry responsibilities
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:12.900
for our ferry system, for our rail system. And
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:14.699
so for us, it really is about the integration
00:55:14.699 --> 00:55:19.639
of the trip. So how do we and because We talk
00:55:19.639 --> 00:55:21.780
about APIs, we talk about procurement, these
00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:24.199
are really complex things. So as a state DOT,
00:55:24.699 --> 00:55:27.679
we're looking at how do we put all these different
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.960
providers of all these different services onto
00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:32.340
contracts so that our local communities can just
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:34.219
come in and take advantage of that contract and
00:55:34.219 --> 00:55:37.719
integrate the modes. So our ferry system is predominantly
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:41.400
vehicle because there is no solution on the other
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:44.059
side of that water for them. So where we can
00:55:44.059 --> 00:55:47.639
build in scooters and bikes, as a last mile solution,
00:55:47.780 --> 00:55:50.000
we will increase the ridership of the ferry and
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:52.719
the rail and the bus. So I think that's where,
00:55:52.780 --> 00:55:55.179
for me, as you said, Scott, the mobility as a
00:55:55.179 --> 00:55:59.659
service, getting that concept, I think, will
00:55:59.659 --> 00:56:03.559
grow the entire network. Yeah, and we've had
00:56:03.559 --> 00:56:05.880
many different pilots. So we have a lot of pilot
00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:08.969
fatigue in mass mobility as a service. Whether
00:56:08.969 --> 00:56:11.090
it's at the state level, at the city level, and
00:56:11.090 --> 00:56:14.090
maybe it's more successful in the United States,
00:56:14.469 --> 00:56:16.190
surprisingly enough, than in Europe, where Europe
00:56:16.190 --> 00:56:18.769
has had a lot more experience in mass than the
00:56:18.769 --> 00:56:21.050
US has had, which is a bit more kind of dabble
00:56:21.050 --> 00:56:23.190
on the edges, obviously, because it's more car
00:56:23.190 --> 00:56:25.550
-centric culture, all that stuff. But that's
00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:28.769
kind of par for the course. But maybe on a more
00:56:28.769 --> 00:56:32.389
pragmatic level, we can see some more. success.
00:56:32.670 --> 00:56:35.690
I know Venkatesh, there's been some interesting
00:56:35.690 --> 00:56:39.590
work with TransLink on mass. I know you guys
00:56:39.590 --> 00:56:42.110
have with MoveMe and everything. Maybe we can
00:56:42.110 --> 00:56:44.789
kind of talk about that and how mass in British
00:56:44.789 --> 00:56:47.150
Columbia is integrated with the path ahead for
00:56:47.150 --> 00:56:51.150
micromobility and what is the kind of path forward.
00:56:52.469 --> 00:56:57.789
Yeah, I was excited to see how both Julie and
00:56:57.789 --> 00:57:03.019
Darius are looking at integration, not just digitally,
00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:06.500
but also physically. So mobility is physical,
00:57:06.659 --> 00:57:10.300
but at the same time, our lives are now so much
00:57:10.300 --> 00:57:13.579
digital. So it needs to be checking the box on
00:57:13.579 --> 00:57:18.579
both sides. And this is happy to be involved
00:57:18.579 --> 00:57:21.840
in the mass pilot in Vancouver. So as MoveMe,
00:57:21.980 --> 00:57:25.559
we've been project managing the mass concept
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:31.300
from since 2020. 2019. So the first phase was
00:57:31.300 --> 00:57:34.519
basically just using a fare card, the transit
00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:37.360
fare card, and tapping it for transit payments,
00:57:37.659 --> 00:57:40.300
tapping it for car share, unlocking the car share
00:57:40.300 --> 00:57:43.199
vehicle, and tapping it for the bike share, the
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:49.260
docked bike share. And since that pilot, we started
00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:51.900
that in 2019. Then we continued it, although
00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:54.599
it was 2020. And then by end of 2020, we just
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:57.840
had to call it off because that's all the budget
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.260
was there for for like a one -year pilot and
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:05.280
like about 11 months I think. But in that pilot
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.679
one of the key things that came up was and this
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:12.820
was a more b2b kind of a pilot where we onboarded
00:58:12.820 --> 00:58:15.599
companies and their employees would use these
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:17.559
cards and there was like special cards, special
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:19.539
branded ones and they could go and use this.
00:58:19.900 --> 00:58:24.000
The one thing that I would say how this has helped
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:28.719
us evaluate integration in terms of different
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:32.639
modes is 30 % of the respondents for the survey,
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:38.760
so about like 150 people, agreed that they used
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.639
a new mode for the first time. So being in Vancouver,
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:47.119
so car sharing has been in Vancouver for, I think,
00:58:47.179 --> 00:58:52.199
since 2016, even before, I think maybe 2014.
00:58:54.570 --> 00:58:57.789
Bike Share has been there, I think, since 2014,
00:58:58.070 --> 00:59:03.349
2015. And TransLink has been there forever. But
00:59:03.349 --> 00:59:06.590
in that 30%, there are people who use Transit
00:59:06.590 --> 00:59:10.809
for the first time. And for me, who uses multimodal
00:59:10.809 --> 00:59:14.550
all the time, I'm like, how did you get around
00:59:14.550 --> 00:59:17.710
Vancouver again before using Transit? How could
00:59:17.710 --> 00:59:20.889
you not use Transit at all? So we clearly were
00:59:20.889 --> 00:59:24.000
speaking to people who are so dependent on their
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:28.840
cars to drive them around or just walk. Either
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:33.000
they live in that 15 minute walkable community
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.400
and they've never been required to travel outside,
00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:39.699
which I find hard to believe. You would have
00:59:39.699 --> 00:59:43.800
taken a bus trip or a ferry somewhere. But then
00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:48.119
not having tried the transit trip, so that gave
00:59:48.119 --> 00:59:51.260
us the fuel to go ahead and launch this pilot
00:59:51.260 --> 00:59:56.650
around the app. So now we have an app which allows
00:59:56.650 --> 01:00:00.670
you to book pay and plan book and pay for car
01:00:00.670 --> 01:00:03.969
share, bike share and transit trips. Transit
01:00:03.969 --> 01:00:05.750
you can't pay through the app, but yeah, this
01:00:05.750 --> 01:00:09.530
is where we are evaluating. It's been on since
01:00:09.530 --> 01:00:14.250
April. It will be there until December. So yeah,
01:00:14.349 --> 01:00:17.170
Darius, hopefully by end of December we will
01:00:17.170 --> 01:00:20.170
have some stats to release and share with you.
01:00:20.409 --> 01:00:23.769
uh helping you with your 2026 project of how
01:00:23.769 --> 01:00:27.210
you want to integrate yeah we and it's i will
01:00:27.210 --> 01:00:33.170
say is painstakingly difficult to get people
01:00:33.170 --> 01:00:36.010
in the room and agree on certain things in terms
01:00:36.010 --> 01:00:38.650
of service providers than actually integrating
01:00:38.650 --> 01:00:43.050
technology wise right so so technology there
01:00:43.050 --> 01:00:44.909
is there seems to be like yeah we can do that
01:00:44.909 --> 01:00:47.969
but then agreeing getting them to agree that
01:00:47.969 --> 01:00:50.719
they want to do this Oh, this is like conflicted.
01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:53.460
So our project management has been mostly conflict
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:55.760
resolution. So that's what we've been doing for
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.059
the last five years. So yeah, it's funny how
01:00:59.059 --> 01:01:02.820
mass is looked at that now than anything else.
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:05.940
And in terms of mobility hubs, it's something
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:10.440
that gives rise to these thoughts. And I don't
01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.840
think we've seen that anywhere. being successful
01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:16.179
other than certain cities in Europe like Bremen
01:01:16.179 --> 01:01:19.059
and all of that. But it definitely feels that
01:01:19.059 --> 01:01:23.179
we need to bring once you have these shared modes
01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:26.199
together in one place physically, you also need
01:01:26.199 --> 01:01:28.780
to integrate that in terms of like an app or
01:01:28.780 --> 01:01:31.480
a card or something like that, taking away some
01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:33.699
of the barriers of registration and those kind
01:01:33.699 --> 01:01:38.019
of things. So I think those are the two innovation,
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:41.860
I will call them innovation because We have yet
01:01:41.860 --> 01:01:45.860
to see the prolonged success of those two in
01:01:45.860 --> 01:01:49.480
like widely. So those are the two innovations
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.119
that excite me the most in terms of the future.
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:54.960
You mentioned Bremen in Germany, just to kind
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.860
of wrap it up. Another deployment that I think
01:01:57.860 --> 01:02:00.420
it's been pretty exciting on this side of the
01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:03.920
Atlantic is in Berlin with the Yelby app and
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:07.039
kind of the integration of their shared mobility
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:09.320
hubs in partnership with their public transit,
01:02:09.340 --> 01:02:12.840
their BVG system. and just this kind of seamless
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:16.179
discover book and pay platform and the way finding
01:02:16.179 --> 01:02:20.460
this kind of honeybee color scheme of black and
01:02:20.460 --> 01:02:23.719
yellow throughout the city of Berlin helps out
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:26.320
a city of like over four million people seamlessly
01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:30.699
navigate not to promote this platform because
01:02:30.699 --> 01:02:33.179
they're not sponsoring me but I think it's interesting
01:02:33.179 --> 01:02:37.719
because of a mid to larger size European city
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:41.019
sort of kind of did it quietly and they did it
01:02:41.019 --> 01:02:43.139
at the digital layer and the physical layer,
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:46.699
and they checked off all the boxes of mass, micromobility,
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:49.920
car share, public transit, etc. And it's been
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.820
quietly successful over the last several years.
01:02:53.579 --> 01:02:56.559
But then again, back to the US, a pilot project
01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:59.960
that which received a lot of buzz around 2021
01:02:59.960 --> 01:03:03.320
-2022 was in Pittsburgh, the Move PGH project,
01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:05.159
which lasted about a year and a half, two years
01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:07.679
with spin scooters. It had a lot of promise,
01:03:07.699 --> 01:03:10.909
but then it eventually kind of sunsetted, shall
01:03:10.909 --> 01:03:14.250
we say, but maybe something of the Pittsburgh
01:03:14.250 --> 01:03:17.550
sort, kind of beyond a pilot could be something
01:03:17.550 --> 01:03:20.730
interesting for Detroit or Cleveland or St. Louis
01:03:20.730 --> 01:03:24.409
or whatever. Let's see. The Pittsburgh example,
01:03:24.409 --> 01:03:27.010
I believe, was a bit truncated. So I'd love to
01:03:27.010 --> 01:03:30.010
see something that scale out maybe. I don't see
01:03:30.010 --> 01:03:32.750
the Yelby Berlin experience in the United States,
01:03:32.750 --> 01:03:36.269
but something a bit more on a reasonable scale,
01:03:36.429 --> 01:03:38.750
maybe on a neighborhood scale, could be really
01:03:38.750 --> 01:03:41.559
cool. But let's see. We don't know. So I guess
01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:44.980
those are our final thoughts here. But just to
01:03:44.980 --> 01:03:47.380
kind of bring it back to full circle here. So
01:03:47.380 --> 01:03:50.800
just to kind of close out for everyone, thank
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:53.860
you all to the panelists for your insights. And
01:03:53.860 --> 01:03:57.300
that is a wrap for today. Huge thanks to you
01:03:57.300 --> 01:04:00.039
guys who joined us. And a big shout out to UMX
01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:02.880
for sponsoring today's session. So check out
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:05.320
urbanmobilitycourses .eu for their extensive
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.119
course catalog, expert videos, and in -person
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:11.079
trainings. including courses on topics like today's
01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:14.179
discussion. Thanks again for being part of the
01:04:14.179 --> 01:04:17.260
city's first podcast on LinkedIn. And for everyone
01:04:17.260 --> 01:04:19.739
else, I'll see you next month for another deep
01:04:19.739 --> 01:04:23.400
dive. Our next issue will be on mobility data
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:26.019
and AI. So that'll be really exciting. But once
01:04:26.019 --> 01:04:29.559
again, thank you, Julie. Thank you, Darius and
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.119
Venkatesh. It's been an absolute pleasure to
01:04:32.119 --> 01:04:34.489
kind of for your perspective. I'm honored to
01:04:34.489 --> 01:04:37.150
have you join. And I think this was one of our
01:04:37.150 --> 01:04:41.230
best episodes. So I appreciate your time. Thank
01:04:41.230 --> 01:04:43.530
you. Pleasure's all mine. Pleasure's all mine
01:04:43.530 --> 01:04:43.909
as well.