WEBVTT
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Imagine you're playing tennis against a tennis ball machine.
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And when you've got one tennis ball machine, you can return the shots.
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That's manageable and feels good.
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But now a second tennis ball rolls in.
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So maybe the first one was a new procedure at work.
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Now the second tennis ball rolls in, and that's maybe a problem at home where you've got a child who needs a neurodiversity assessment and you're not sure where to proceed.
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And then your ball machine's rolled out, and you know, it's another change at work.
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And if you're stuck trying to respond to all of these balls and you're getting pummeled by them, there's only so long that you're going to feel able to respond to that before you then drop into a ball yourself on the court so that you're not going to get hit so badly.
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Many people recognise times when it's harder to switch off.
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We may be feeling constantly on edge or under pressure.
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And for some, this can build into burnout, which may show up with exhaustion, feeling more detached or withdrawn from work or daily life, and finding it harder to think clearly and stay on top of things.
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Burnout is often linked to workplace demands, but that doesn't always explain why it can feel so hard to slow down or recover.
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In this episode, we'll be exploring what burnout is, how it shows up in and beyond work, what's happening in the nervous system, and our response to pressure and to recovery.
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I'm delighted to be joined today by Dr.
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Claire Plumley, clinical psychologist and author of Burnout, How to Manage Your Nervous System Before It Manages You.
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Claire, huge welcome.
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Could you start by telling us a little about your work and what drew you into this area?
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Hi, thanks for the intro.
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I'm a clinical psychologist, as you say, and I used to work in the NHS up until 2017.
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So I previously worked in an IAP service, so alongside GPs, and then in a sexual assault service, and then moved to Somerset, where I changed into seeing private practice clients, found that I was seeing a lot more people, such as doctors, nurses, veterinary staff, teachers, all coming with things that related to work.
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And I started to investigate burnout a little bit more and realized that I was drawing a lot on my trauma training.
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And I felt that that was really helpful for my clients who were presenting with burnout.
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And that led me to write my own book because I felt that actually this could be really helpful for other people to understand as well.
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Yeah, and I think that's so interesting because we don't always think about those links between burnout and trauma.
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Let's start with some of the basics, what we really mean by burnout, and how it's different to stress.
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And what's your working definition of burnout?
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How would you consider it?
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So, burnout for me is it's different to stress, in that stress is about over-engagement.
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You've got all the stresses coming in, and we're really engaged and trying to fix and get to the end and sort it out.
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The problem is quite often in everyday life is that there aren't any endpoints.
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You know, there's such a short feedback loop when you do something, you send it off, and then suddenly it's back in your inbox.
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And that's the same for lots of different parts of our life because we have an always-on culture now, that we quite often end up never getting to the point we feel able to retreat and and rest.
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So burnout comes then when you become trapped in stress and when there's an uneven balance between the stresses coming in and the amount of resources you have access to.
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Stress is about over-engagement then, burnout is about disengagement.
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We start to close down and go into that kind of place of retreat in ourselves, not through choice.
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And I don't think people always realize how much they've disconnected from their own body, from the people around them, from the joy that they used to get from work.
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They just know that things aren't right, and maybe they recognise that they're snapping or dropping some of those spinning plates, you know, missing things, forgetting things.
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You know, I've had people worry that they got early onset dementia because they don't feel like they're cognitively sharp anymore.
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But this is what this disconnection and disengagement can look like.
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So I think that's maybe a helpful distinction and how I look at it.
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Stress is over engagement, disengagement is more the burnout, shutdown part.
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That's really helpful.
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Some element of stress can be healthy and it helps motivate us.
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And we respond by increasing our activity and maybe getting stuff done as a response.
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But then when we're struggling to get more done, when we're reaching a ceiling perhaps, and actually we almost do less because we feel like this is way too much.
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I can't, I can't handle this, or our brain starts dropping bits, as you say, then it's moving beyond stress.
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And I think stress is a continuum in its own right, isn't it?
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This the early part can be positive.
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I think at the top end it's often quite damaging.
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And then burnout's that kind of final place where really the system's starting to break down.
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Absolutely.
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There's a famous bell curve which I include in my book, The Yerkes-Dodson Bell Curve, which is all about optimal stresses for optimal functioning.
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And in and of itself, stress is coming in, can motivate us, they feel engaging, and it feels pleasing to move towards and be motivated by outcomes and goals.
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But if we have too many, we don't have enough resources or stress buffers, then we do tip out the other side of that stress curve.
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And I think unfortunately, you know, where where people are at the top of their curve, ideally trying to like stay just before the top of that curve.
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Often people are on the cusp of tipping into burnout and overwhelm quite a lot of the time, partly because our systems are set up like that, and partly because people have kind of got used to living on the edge like that.
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And yeah, so unfortunately, it is quite a common problem that people are describing.
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Yes, a lot of people I see are really walking at that top end where they're perhaps not quite burnt out, but they are definitely at risk of tipping in, and it might only take a few additional pressures or a few things going wrong before they hit overwhelms.
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There's just very little room in the system for challenge or unexpected problems.
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And then when they happen, there's just very little capacity to be able to cope.
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And I think it's the culture we're in at the moment, it's that kind of do more, be better, achieve more.
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And I think more is not always better.
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Like you say, there's that there's that curve where increasing some sense of pressure and achievement is really positive, but it's not a continual.
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We can't then keep ramping that up and think that's going to be a positive because in the end it'll just dip off again.
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Yeah, and I think a lot of people really struggle with thinking about what do I need to stop or remove in order to say yes to things.
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There's research that shows that even with well-being tools, we'll quite often be drawn to adding more in rather than thinking about ones that involve like less.
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I think it's really tricky because we need these boundaries and we need to be able to make space for things.
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Less is often more, but I think it can feel like we're missing out or failing or letting others down.
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So it can be complex.
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And I think in what certain workplaces where your identities become very enmeshed and fused with your identity and work are kind of one and the same, just trying to think about workload and doing less becomes a threat in of itself because then who am I if I start to do less?
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You mentioned in the book how burnout is defined as an occupational phenomena.
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It's linked to work.
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And so obviously the environment at work, the pressures, the expectations, how work is structured, our relationships with our team members, how many emails we get, how much is on our to-do list, all of that is likely to impact just as much as our own personal responses.
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But I'm also just thinking about people that I've seen where they might have burnout for other reasons that are not just work-related.
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And I've certainly seen people who may have pressures at home, perhaps they're caring for an unwell relative, they've got a child who has a lot of additional needs, for example, and people can also have a pattern that feels to me very similar to burnout.
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And I wondered if that's been your experience as well.
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Absolutely, yes.
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Because the official definition talks about unmanaged chronic occupational stress as being like essential to kind of being able to call it burnout.
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But I'm arguing in the book that actually we tend to understand occupational as meaning paid occupation, but actually there's lots of places in our life where we are doing unpaid labour.
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Parenting, caring for relatives, studying.
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And these these are often places that aren't really acknowledged as being work.
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And so that adds to it because it's invisible work, and we kind of think everyone else is managing and carrying all these like different loads, but are they?
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So, yes, there's more going into research being in parental burnout, and there is now an inventory on that, and there's a carer's inventory.
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So if you kind of want to have a kind of little self-assessment, a lot of them are freely available and can be really helpful to see the items laid out.
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There is an item on the parental burnout that's something like, I love my children, but I don't want to be near them.
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These are the kind of things that people will be saying, and that's that disengagement, that disconnect that we see in burnout, which is hard if you're wanting to be a good parent and it doesn't gel with your values and what you want for yourself and your family life.
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And I think there are certain times in your life where you might have some of these like dual pressures, like that sandwich generation where you've got elderly parents and dependents, which will put you at higher risk as well.
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Yes, and often also carrying responsibilities at work and all kinds of complexity.
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And so I remember I didn't we did an episode with an occupational therapist who was talking about the fact that actually anything we engage in can be considered an occupation.
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So even hobbies can be considered occupations.
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And on that definition, then we could look perhaps at the balance of all the different pressures that may cover different aspects of life.
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And so it feels very much like how do I understand the pattern of my life and how I'm living and all the things I need to do and that are important to me and that I want to be resourced to do.
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And that feels more helpful than being very specific about it's all all related to work as in a paid occupation.
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So in clinical psychology, we would always look at the whole areas of life.
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We would always think holistically about the different areas of your work and map that out and see what the different external pressures are for you.
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It's often the straw that broke the camel's back in that something small can happen and then people can tip into really feeling overwhelmed.
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It might be that there's just that one email that feels too much, and but actually it's the all the other things cumulatively that really need to be taken into account.
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So can you talk to us a little bit about what is happening in the body and in the nervous system when people are starting to develop burnout that can help us understand what's happening in burnout and also start to make sense of why trauma may well be important?
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So the way I talk to my clients about the autonomic nervous system, which is the part of the nervous system that's responsible for keeping us safe, it's the part of us that's always on, always attuned to our environment, the faces around us, the facial expressions of people and the body language of the people around us, the other senses and cues from the environment, so sounds, the smells in the air and everything around us.
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And the beautiful thing about the autonomic nervous system is that we don't need to consciously be aware of that.
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It's always on and always looking after us.
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What that means is that we should spend a lot of our time in the part of our autonomic nervous system that allows us to be attuned to our environment and think clearly.
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So I refer to this as the green, it's the ventral vagal part of the parasympathetic nervous system, if you want all the technical words, which I'm sure your audience enjoy.
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And when we're in this part of our autonomic nervous system, we're able to accurately read the facial expressions of those around us.
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We're able to use all our frontal lobes and executive functioning that's housed there, which means we can problem solve, we can think about abstract things, we can eloquently find our language and comprehend what people are saying to us.
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And then down in the body, we've got everything happening business as usual, in terms of our heart rate, our resting kind of digestive system is able to be on.
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And so we need to be coming back to that state regularly as well to kind of reset ourselves and to replenish.
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And that's the only place really where we can switch down our gears into green.
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When we're here, we can sleep and we can rest properly.
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When stress has come in, like emails or like rushing around and having our to-do list, autonomic nervous system's first line of defense is to switch into the amber sympathetic nervous system.
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And this is the fight or flight place where everything kind of revs up again and the stress hormones that are released are designed to get us into action quickly.
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So we have a surge of motivation and energy to help us do that.
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This can feel urgent.
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So we can feel like we don't have time to stop and have our cup of coffee.
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I'm always saying to my clients, you know, that's a s that's a sign.
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If you don't think you've got time to do any of the things we've talked about, it's a sign that you need it even more.
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Because when we're in that place, it's not just our body that's switched gear, you know, our heart rate has gone up a little bit, digestive system has kind of switched over and lent out all its resources to the large skeletal muscles for the fight or flight responses.
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And that's why slowing down feels so hard.
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It almost feels like a threat because the body wants to be moving and it's got all this energy to plow into something.
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So a dropping into a mindfulness exercise or slowing the body down can feel really tricky for us.
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And if we don't understand why, we can end up thinking it's not working, it's pointless.
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So obviously, we're only designed to be in that for a short period of time in order to get through the stresses because it puts a stress on our bodies.
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And if you don't come back to a reset, this can start to have wear and tear on our organs.
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That also does mean you're not you're gonna struggle to fall asleep because you've got so much energy in your system that's got to go somewhere.
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So that's that tired but wired kind of experience that people often describe in burnout.
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And then the final pace of the autonomic nervous system is this kind of shutdown place that we see.
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And if you think about the animal kingdom, when you see this, if the prey is being chased by the predator, you'll have seen, I'm sure, some David Attenborough, where the uh animal that being chased will play its final kind of get out of jail free card by just flopping and playing dead, and it can even stop its breathing.
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And that might seem like a strange strategy to immobilize for safety, but the reason it works is because the predator then thinks, well, this isn't fun anymore, and it wanders off.
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And so the the the prey has managed to kind of stay alive one more day.
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And so we might not flop like that, although I have seen people do that.
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People have said they haven't been able to get out of bed one day, for example, and people can get kind of very physically heavy, but also just on a cognitive level, what that can look like is that you're kind of going through the motions without really connecting to what's going on around you.
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This is the masking that can happen from why people can find they don't really realize that they are in this place, because even when we're there, if we're managing to kind of operate on some level, we're relying on procedural memory.
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Procedural memory is the part of our memory that allows us to do quite complex sets of actions through rote learning.
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Like, for example, I can make a cup of tea without needing to think, oh now I'm boiling the kettle, now I'm putting the tea bag in the cup.
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I can drive.
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That's a really complex set of actions.
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I'm not thinking, now my foot's going on the gas, now I'm moving the clutch.
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And so we can sometimes get through large chunks of the day without having to really rely on our frontal lobes all that much, all that lovely executive function that I'm talking about.
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The only time then we might realize things aren't good is when, you know, someone says, Well, can you recall that new procedure that we learned yesterday at work?
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No.
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Can you remember the new person's name?
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No.
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And you're driving home and there's a blockage and you have to think of a new route and you can't do it.
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Like decision making as well is a good marker that you're here because decisions which you need that cognitive capacity for just feel completely overwhelmed and we can't do it.
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These are good examples, I think, that people can be looking out for as red flags.
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And I like to think of it like gears on a car.
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You want to be getting the fluidity up and down the gears.
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And I think in burnout, people have got stuck oscillating between that amber and that red shutdown place, and they're not getting any look in with green really at all.
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And the positive emotions, the content emotions that you get there.
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So, what I'm hearing is we've got three states of the autonomic nervous system.
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There's green, there's amber, and there's red.
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And proportionately we want to be spending more of our time in green, which is where we're more regulated, where we can think flexibly, we're doing the things that matter to us, and our body is not under pressure, so we're healing and our body's got time to recharge physically as well as emotionally, and think about all the complex stuff that we're dealing with in day-to-day life and make decisions and deal with situations which might be complex and need lots of thinking about.
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So, most of life, we probably need that to be able to do our jobs, to be able to decide how to manage our kids when they want to push the boundaries and we're not sure how to parent them.
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We we really need green for that, don't we?
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Just as a starting point.
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Yeah, and and playfulness.
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Like, you know, playful parenting involves you needing to be in green.
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You need creative thought.
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Your creative thought is housed in the green frontal lobes.
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And this is part of the difficulty, I think, with some of the techniques we're taught for stress management and supporting ourselves.
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They can rely too much on green mode already being online.
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Because the thing with the autonomic nervous system, you know, is very much the brain stem talking to the body, because the way all the nerves are connecting through the body, talking to each other, passing messages up and down, 80% of the direction of travel goes from the body to the brain.
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So only 20% goes brain to body, which means that those purely cognitive tech techniques, you might struggle to start with those.
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So, for example, like a thought balancing or problem solving technique or journaling, you might need to do something to kind of work the energy out, slow, regular breathing to kind of bring the body down, somatic exercises that kind of movement and stretches when you're feeling very dysregulated before you can access those sitting and working things out with a pen and paper type exercises.
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Right.
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So that would fit with what I would often say to people, which is when you're very dysregulated, if you're very stressed, very anxious, high intense any emotion really, then we're not in green.
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And so trying to think at that point is really a mismatch because we need to get to green before we can think, so we have to find a way to get to green and then we can think about it.
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This is the choice pause, a short tool you'll hear in every episode drawn from my books and therapy practice, each time with something different to help you pause, notice, and choose your next step.
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Today is a pause for stepping out of overdrive when we hit amber and we're feeling overactivated and stressed, and back down to green.
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Take a slow breath in and a longer breath out.
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Let your shoulders be heavy and let go of any tension in your face or jaw.
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At times you may notice that things are starting to feel urgent.
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Your thoughts are moving quickly, you're planning ahead, trying to stay on top of everything, and it's all starting to feel a little overwhelming.
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This might show up as you're working through the tasks on your to-do list, replying to messages, or trying to juggle everything that you need to get done today and feeling a pressure to keep going.
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When this happens, it can feel difficult to pause.
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We may feel that we just need to keep pressing on.
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And yet a brief pause can start to ease some of that pressure just enough to give you a little more choice and find a little more space.
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Let your attention come to your breathing.
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Take a breath in and another slow exhale.
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Notice if you're holding tension anywhere in your body, just let it go.
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Notice any sense of tightness or drive or an urge to keep going.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:33.839
Maybe say to yourself, I can feel this pressure right now, and I can meet this with a bit of understanding.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.319
Maybe you could give yourself permission to slow the pace just a little.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.119
What would it look like to take the next step with just a little less urgency or pressure?
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.240
To pause for a few seconds before continuing.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.720
To step back briefly before moving on to the next task.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:58.559
As you continue with your day, start to notice any moments of pressure or tension.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.759
And allow yourself a small pause to step out of them when you can.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:13.200
So just to sort of summarise, we go from green when we've got lots on our to-do list or some pressures and stresses, we go up to amber.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.160
And it sounds like that would be helpful in the short term.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.880
It energizes us to start dealing with them.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:23.519
So it's it's important to have the capacity to go into amber.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:31.680
But if we get stuck there, then that feels quite unhelpful and a chronic stress where our body and brain is really struggling.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:38.160
And then when that persists for a long time or gets more extreme, then we go up into red, which is this shutdown zone.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.759
And you you talked about the fight, flight, and then the freeze response.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:49.200
And that does sound quite similar to trauma, where sometimes we do go into freeze when we're facing something that feels I'm powerless.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.160
This is a threat which is outside my power to deal with.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:59.839
So the body's response is I'm just gonna check out because I need to just distance myself from something quite horrific that's happening that I can't stop.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.160
I'm wondering if there's parallel to that when we're just feeling so overwhelmed by the chronic stresses in our work.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.319
The brain is like, look, this is just too much.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:09.759
So I'm out for a while.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.960
I just need to sort of step back.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.960
And then we're obviously disconnected.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:14.240
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.039
And this is why I use the the word trauma.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:23.440
Actually, the US version of my book is called the trauma of burnout, because I think it's the same processes.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:29.440
And if you look at the definitions of trauma, they include things like constant violation of boundaries.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.119
You know, in in say sexual trauma, that'll be a physical boundary.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:38.480
In emotional trauma, that's violation of your personal boundaries and wishes.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.960
It's kind of like the stresses have come in and there aren't any boundaries and there's no escape.
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.759
A good metaphor is that imagine you're playing tennis against a tennis ball machine.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.519
And when you've got one tennis ball machine, you can return the shots.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.039
That's manageable and feels good.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.359
But now a second tennis ball rolls in.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.519
So maybe the first one was a new procedure at work.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:11.279
Now the second tennis ball rolls in, and that's maybe a problem at home where you've got, you know, a child who needs a neurodiversity assessment and you're not sure where to proceed, and then your ball machine's rolled out, and you know, it's another change at work.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:24.720
And if you're stuck trying to respond to all of these balls and you're getting pummeled by them, there's only so long that you're going to feel able to respond to that before you then drop into a ball yourself on the court so that you're not going to get hit so badly.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.039
Such a helpful analogy.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:33.920
And I I think you can just imagine they're coming faster and faster and faster, and then we end up thinking, I just can't do this.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.319
I give up, and our brain just shuts down and stops trying.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:48.079
And there's a point at which we're desperately trying to hit them all back and to keep those plates juggling, and and that's maybe the amber zone where we're really trying to push hard and get everything done.
00:23:48.319 --> 00:24:02.319
And sometimes I see people go between the two and they they might spend a lot of time, as you you say, going from amber to red, and then they sort of manage to get it back down again, but only as far as amber, and then they're back up to red again, but and very rarely down to green.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.160
I think the thing with burnout is that you know it's a slippery slope.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:13.839
If you think about stress, moving into chronic stress, moving into functional burnout, and then clinical burnout.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:19.680
The functional burnout for me is when people are oscillating between their amber, the red zones.
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:26.000
Whereas clinical burnout, if someone can't get up and go to work, their body's forced to stop for them.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:35.599
Um, you know, maybe they've had a really scary cardiac issue or another physical health issue because the two are very linked, and sometimes that's the thing that stopped them.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.799
Um, you know, I've had people who couldn't talk one day.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:44.400
I've had a couple of people who just couldn't find words and they're normally able to completely function, high functioning.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:54.960
Um, that for me is when they've dropped into red and they they're frozen, they're dissociative, or unable to use their body and their brain in the way that they would like to.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:05.119
I've done quite a lot of work with women entering the menopause, and and often the menopause itself can be that extra tennis ball machine that suddenly starts firing a whole load of balls.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.359
There might be physical balls to deal with.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:21.680
So there's all the physical effects of menopause and then the the changes in, you know, having the brain fog, and all of a sudden, all the coping strategies we are managing to hit back that ball just about, who are maybe in amber, but then it just feels like this is too fast.
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.960
But and often actually that's a group who do have the sandwich generation issues going on as well.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.160
I totally agree.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:32.240
I think with that age group, it's really hard to untangle it all and it's all having an impact.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.839
And I think it's good to have those conversations to see all the different things because often you can't see the wood for the trees when you're in it.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.960
And that age group are also more likely to be more senior at work.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:54.079
You've got to a point in your career where you're holding a lot of responsibility, and again, you're sandwiched at work with the people you're responsible for and caring for, wanting to support them, and then the top-down projects and things being told from up above that you have to achieve.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.920
And then, yeah, the hormones, I know that that puts a stress on the body.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:12.240
If your estrogen starts to drop off, that's going to kind of start triggering a bit of the threat response, which has the impact on us that we've been talking about, where you're switching into that more negative thinking style where we feel more catastrophic or anxious.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.759
It's coming from within at that point, which can be hard to put your finger on then.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:16.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:23.200
It's just that intersection between the hormonal impact, the life stressors, our thinking patterns.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:36.160
Often we also have coping strategies throughout life, like maybe wanting to be people pleasers and rescuers, and so we've got the collision of all of those different factors that I think can then make it a really challenging period of life.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:42.000
And I think it's really interesting to think about burnout as one of the ways to make sense of some of that.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:50.720
I'm I'm thinking about the type of pressures and whether all pressures are the same or whether certain types of stress are more significant for some people.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:27:04.480
So sometimes, in my experience, challenging relationships at work can have a particularly triggering impact, or struggling with maintaining boundaries can also make people more likely to go up to amber and then quite more quickly up to red.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:11.200
I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about how relationships might impact on progression between the zones.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.240
Absolutely.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.119
I mean, relationships, we are social creatures.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:26.000
Our physiology was designed to help us stay in the social group because we need to feel belonging, we need to know that you know our group have got our back and that we're going to be safe.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:35.599
We see that from birth when babies come out and they're designed to look for faces and to move their head towards the voices that are familiar, and then they feel good, they feel safe.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.559
And we carry that into adulthood, we don't ever lose that.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.200
And, you know, this is all about attachment, and we know how painful it is if an attachment is ruptured in any way.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:52.240
So part of that autonomic nervous system picking up cues of safety is all about am I still belonging in this group?
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.880
And also not just that, but where's my social order rank here?
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:04.880
Because if we're at the very bottom of that social group, there's a risk we could fall out of it and be ostracised or left behind by the pack.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:19.519
And so we can get very focused on where we are in the social rank, which is another risk for burnout because of that insecure striving to make sure we're not seen as lower or less than by our peers, by the people whose opinions we care about.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:34.240
So I think that could be triggering even if there's not really a toxic relationship at work, if we perceive there to be an issue that we've let other ourselves down or others down or are being poorly thought of, that will trigger a threat, a feeling of rejection.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:39.200
And so, yeah, it's good to recognize that because it is important to us as humans.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:45.920
It is tricky being in a human body because we have that physiology that we'll just get fired up, even if we, you know, recognize and know it.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:55.519
It's good to know that that has happened so we can take that step back and breathe through it and like take a moment before responding to the email or or whatever the conversation needs to be.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:07.519
And it is hard learning those skills to maintain a working relationship because you have to be able to tolerate a little bit of challenge sometimes to kind of maintain that place in the social group at work.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:18.319
But the other thing I just want to highlight is the term co-regulation, which is that when we we talk a lot about self-regulation in an in often in therapy, and we think about that, don't we?
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.640
Because it's it's easy, we can focus on ourselves, we just self-regulate through breathing and whatnot.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:35.359
But co-regulation is when we settle our nervous systems by vibing off someone else's calm and regulated nervous system, like a young child would do if they were dysregulated and a parent they're there and hugging them.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.440
This is co-regulation happening, and you start to model that and learn that.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.200
But there isn't ever a point in our life where we let go of needing that.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.160
That's always going to be really helpful to us.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:53.279
Seeking that out and having a sense that the people around us have got our back is really important for that psychological safety.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:06.960
The the opposite of it is co-escalation, you know, when people come in and they're anxious and they're setting each other off, and we all know what kind of terrible workplace that is to work in, because you know, everyone's arguing and unpleasant and like competitive.
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:26.240
It's really interesting to think about that impact of being in a workplace or perhaps even a home life where there's a lot of challenge and threat and challenging relationships, and how important actually to try and get working relationships that that feel supportive, that feel safe for everybody, and then enable that co-regulation.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:48.720
And it's interesting to think about the idea of wanting to support others and build connections being a positive thing versus the people-pleasing side, which is much more that threat-based, where we're doing it in amber because it's a threat response, but and when it doesn't work, we might go into Red, we then disengage completely and think I can't please this person, so I'm gonna check out.
00:30:48.799 --> 00:31:08.559
And then we might come back to trying really hard when we're in amber to make sure that everybody likes us and we're pushing ourselves really hard to do that, versus the co-regulation where we're focusing on positive relationships, connection, supporting one another, and how on the outside it might not look that different, but on the inside it's a hugely different internal response.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.519
Yes, because people pleasing in that way that you've just framed it would be fawning, you know, if we were to use the trauma language for it.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.720
It's safer just to push my own needs down.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.400
And I'm reading that facial expression, like, is this okay?
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:23.920
This is what they're looking for.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.119
And yeah, that absolutely this just reinforces any vicious cycles that we're we're stuck in.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:38.480
I do think it's really important the workspaces and workplaces are creating space where people can have conversations that aren't just work-related.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:46.240
When I worked in the NHS, when I first started in 2008, we had a really lovely staff room with a big picture window looking out.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:59.039
And then we moved and we got given like a tiny internal room which was like the size of a small desk for one person at a time with one microwave, nowhere to sit, nowhere to look out into the natural light.
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:00.880
You know, and the these are important.
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:06.000
They're not just nice to have because you can't have a water cooler moment if there's no water cooler.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:10.079
And this is the kind of social lubricant, I guess, that makes work feel safer.
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:14.880
There's a lot of people homeworking now, and it's very positive in a lot of ways.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:34.559
It might help us connect more with families or be more present, but there's also a risk that we become quite disconnected if we're not physically seeing our colleagues and having that water cooler moment because we're actually very disconnected physically or geographically, and I think there are ways to try to get across that divide.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:45.759
It's one of those things that we can support one another across a space, across the the internet, but I just feel like it's really healthy to have some face-to-face interaction as part of that.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.839
It's getting that balance, isn't it?
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:53.279
Yeah, I think it's a tough gig if you just work solely at home and there's no hybrid working.
00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:02.720
And I do think finding a way to have some face-to-face contact with someone as a regular way of keeping connected with yourself and your team is really important.
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:12.880
So if we start to think about how to create a sense of balancing the nervous system, and I know there's lots of information in your book.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:24.559
For today, we'll we'll just focus on some of the practical tools that people can use, perhaps before they've reached really significant burnout, but they may be spending too much time in amber and they're occasionally going up into red.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:35.599
And so it's trying to think, okay, how do I shift everything down a gear like you described, so that I'm spending more time in green than in amber, and I'm hardly ever going into the red zone.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:41.119
What kind of practical changes could we start to do that might help us to achieve that?
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.599
I think it's helpful to start recognizing it and by listening to this is a is a first point.
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.079
So I think just want to acknowledge that you can't do anything unless you start to recognize it.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:58.960
I think there's a lot of value in trying to have a conversation with someone you feel like you could have a chat to to try and work out what all the external stresses are that you're dealing with.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:04.240
In therapy, when I see people, we're just having a conversation early on and trying to get them all out.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:10.079
And quite often people will see from my reaction that that's a lot and they hadn't realized how much they were carrying.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:20.159
But this also then offers an opportunity to begin to think, you know, where's the wiggle room here for putting one of these plates, spinning plates, down, even if it's just temporarily?
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:33.840
And that's sometimes just easier to do with another human being who can kind of help you, who can kind of lend out their frontal lobes whilst yours are a little bit offline, because it's really hard to have that type of thought and process and conversation on your own.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.880
Obviously, that's where professional conversation might be easier if you feel too vulnerable to have it with someone, but there might be someone already in your network.
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:49.119
Or just starting to get a piece of paper out and just starting to write things down, because compassion for oneself can start with allowing support in.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:55.840
If you think about a wounded animal, they'll often hide and they do that because they're worried about being outcast from the pack or picked off by a predator.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.760
And we do have that in us too.
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:08.320
So I think acknowledging that and naming that, fear of being vulnerable, but you saying actually there's a lot here can be really validating and be the start of the next step.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:17.840
I've done a lot of work with people where we just do an initial conversation and we're starting to list, okay, what's going on, just start by trying to understand.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:22.880
And then this list is really long, and there's so many complex aspects to it.
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:32.880
And oh, yes, but also I'm dealing with this, and oh, yeah, and actually there's that, and then I I lost my dad last year, and then there's this other pressure at work, and then my kids are and it goes on and on and on.
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.119
There might be a physical health aspect, and it is so therapeutic.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:45.360
Often people will come back and say, you know what, just listing that and having someone say, Wow, that's a lot, was so helpful.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:52.239
And I think we can, if we find someone supportive, that doesn't have to necessarily be a therapist, it doesn't have to be a doctor.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.199
Somebody, as you say, somebody supportive.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.000
We're already working in a lot in the amber zone.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:03.280
So we want someone relatively safe, is what I would say, because if someone's prone to being a bit critical.
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:03.760
Yeah.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.559
Or a worry war, or like can't cope with you feeling a little bit um dysregulated.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.280
So someone who's kind of we're asking for a lot here.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:12.079
No, we're not.
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.199
But sometimes it can help to set up the conversation.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:28.079
I would encourage people to say, don't worry, I'm not expecting you to fix all this, but it would be really helpful just to have a space where I can tell you about it and just for you to say that you've heard it, and that's all I'm really after.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.400
So you're not responsible for it and I'm not expecting you to deal with it.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:35.920
It would just be really helpful to have a safe space to be able to just say it out loud.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:44.000
That's so beautiful because I feel like a big barrier for people is the fear of being a burden and um actually allowing someone in.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.440
Most people don't experience it as being burdened.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.000
They might have a concern and check up on you.
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:58.559
But if you think about how it feels when you felt strong and someone's come to you, you've often actually felt good that you can offer something.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:02.639
Humans were designed to be interdependent, not independent.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.079
But somehow that message has got lost along the way.
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:16.559
And we've absorbed this idea that we should be solving our own problems, doing our own self-care, and then presenting ourselves to the world with the finished polished product.
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.320
But friendships are deeper when we offer a little bit of vulnerability and allow people in.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.639
Those are really authentic relationships.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.480
Yeah, uh completely.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:35.119
And I think if people are very worried about that sense of being a burden, you can also say, I'm very happy to listen to you.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.039
If you have anything you'd like to share to me, I'm more than happy to listen to.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.639
It's not a one-way thing.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:50.159
And so you can actually name that if it makes it feel easier, but also as we do share, it also does give that other per person permission to be able to share back.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:58.000
So, because you're demonstrating some vulnerability that they may then think, actually, this is a safe person, I can share with them.
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:15.039
So it's creating a culture where actually there's a little bit more willingness to express some of the things we find hard rather than showing up looking all shiny and social media positive and everything looking good on the surface, but underneath there's all kinds of chaos going on that nobody's talking about.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:22.320
And the intervention there isn't to go in and jump in with a solution because often someone's not at that point.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.480
They just want to be heard and validated that this is actually a lot and it's too much.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.920
And the image that always comes up to my mind is inside out.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:41.519
Have you seen that film where sadness is overwhelmed with sadness and joy comes along and tries to kind of pep her up with all the solutions and things she should be thinking about.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:50.320
But actually, what she needs is someone to sit alongside her, which the imaginary friend comes and does very effectively and just says that sounds rubbish.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:53.039
You don't need to be a therapist to provide that for someone.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:39:06.159
And and what's coming to mind there is that some of the healing, and I think that does come through in the movie Inside Out as well, is that when we're facing change and stress and problems, then part of what we're needing to do is mourn.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:13.119
There's a mourning about something is hard, and maybe I have a little bit of grief around this change.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:17.280
And being able to express that is really powerful and really healing.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:34.239
And that's why sadness was so key to recovery in the movie Inside Out, because some of that was about change and needing to acknowledge that I just feel sad about this, and then there'll be space for me to find all the happy stuff and move forward and engage in the positive parts of life.
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.800
But you can't just push out the sadness and ignore it.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.199
We do need to make space for it, hear it.
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.719
And I think it's much less problematic once it's been heard.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.239
It kind of creates space then for us to then move on.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:47.679
Yeah, I love that.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:51.199
Thank you for bringing it back to that because that's so important.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:53.920
Let's finish with our choice space takeaway.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:40:01.519
So for someone who recognises some early stages of burnout, what might be some small steps that they could take this week?
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:06.719
My favourite practical tip is to think about the transition points in your day.
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:11.440
So, for example, we're about to transition out of this podcast into something else.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:12.800
I'm gonna go and do the school run.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:22.320
So I've been in my thinking work mode, and I'm gonna be transitioning into needing to be more attuned to my youngster and uh his needs from the day.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:23.920
I don't know what he's gonna bring out of school.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.079
And at that point, the transition, I've also got to travel um in the car.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:46.159
So thinking about those transition points in your day as an opportunity, and how you can lean into those to really notice what where your body is, what gear is it in, what do you need right now in order to meet the need, and to think about then what you're going into the next moment of the day with.
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:53.199
A little bit like how you might look out of the window, and if it's snowing outside, you wouldn't just rush out, you would stop and put a coat on.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:41:12.320
I feel like we are so conditioned to crashing from one thing to another without thinking about the pause that that could be there, and you know, resetting ourselves and also thinking about what is about to happen and what kind of cognition, like social level, capacity, energy level we need.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.880
That, you know, we we end up crashing from one thing to another to the end of the day, and then we're wrung out and we can't fall asleep.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:25.199
So after this, I've been sat still for a while and I'm noticing kind of a bit of tension around the top of my shoulders and back.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.440
So I'm getting an urge to really stretch that out.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:38.639
Park round the corner, so I've got a few extra minutes just walking, walking it all out, so that when I reach the school gate, I can feel like I can be more present for him.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.719
Otherwise, I'll have this conversation in my head.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.320
I'll be thinking, oh, I forgot to say this.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.519
So it just gives my body and brain a little bit longer to reset.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.159
I love that.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:42:14.639
And I'm gonna, I think, build on that, which is to put these pauses in through the day so that we're not just rushing from activity to activity, that we are creating these transition points that are not instantaneous, and that it might be just a one-minute pause or a five-minute pause where we allow time to go back to green before we then move on to the next pressure, and then we're we're doing these micro-regulations throughout the day where which stop us having this cumulative impact where it's just going up and up and up.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.400
It's like a pressure cooker, otherwise, isn't it?
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:16.559
Yeah.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:16.880
Exactly.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:21.840
I've had this conversation with people before, and somebody once said, But I haven't got any transition points in my day.
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:27.360
And when we looked at her day, she was kind of right because they were back-to-back meetings with no compassionate moments.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:33.519
So we talked about which of the meetings she had control over and scheduling them five or ten minutes past the hour.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:40.159
You know, it's really tricky to put a boundary in like that, but there will be transition points even if you can't see them, if you're moving from online meeting to online meeting.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:43.039
When that meeting ends and you start another one, there's the pause.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:51.679
So do, like as you said, stand up, move your body, go to the toilet, splash cold water in your face, whatever it is, take a few deep breaths.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.800
If you really can't find the space, that's a bit of a red flag in its own right, I think.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:02.079
That's likely to be a risky lifestyle that would that means that your body's under pressure already.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:12.559
So I think it might be about really looking and just listing all the things that we're dealing with, like you were talking about, and then starting to just get a framework of okay, what is this stuff that I'm having to carry right now?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:14.239
And where are the spaces?
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:15.599
Where could these spaces be?
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:25.039
Like you say, finishing meeting five, ten minutes early, setting that as your regular, getting up and walking for a minute in between, just having that as a normal.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:30.000
These things I think they can be done, but we need to be quite forceful of ourselves.
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:34.400
It's I think it's our own internal boundaries we often need to manage to make that happen.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:37.199
Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast.
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:42.320
I hope this conversation has offered a little space for you to pause and find your next step.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:47.519
You'll find ways to connect with Claire, along with links to her book and website in the show notes.
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:55.519
If this episode has been helpful, you can download it, follow the podcast, and please share with anyone else who might value the conversation as well.
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.280
Please also leave a rating or review on whatever platform you're listening on.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.079
It really does help people find the show.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:04.000
Imagine you're playing tennis against a tennis ball machine.
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.759
And when you've got one tennis ball machine, you can return the shots.
00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:09.279
That's manageable and feels good.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:11.599
But now a second tennis ball rolls in.
00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:13.759
So maybe the first one was a new procedure at work.
00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:23.039
Now the second tennis ball rolls in, and that's maybe a problem at home where you've got a child who needs a neurodiversity assessment and you're not sure where to proceed.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.800
And then your ball machine's rolled out, and you know, it's another change at work.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:39.359
And if you're stuck trying to respond to all of these balls and you're getting pummeled by them, there's only so long that you're going to feel able to respond to that before you then drop into a ball yourself on the court so that you're not going to get hit so badly.
00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:51.359
Many people recognise times when it's harder to switch off.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:54.719
We may be feeling constantly on edge or under pressure.
00:00:54.880 --> 00:01:06.239
And for some, this can build into burnout, which may show up with exhaustion, feeling more detached or withdrawn from work or daily life, and finding it harder to think clearly and stay on top of things.
00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:14.159
Burnout is often linked to workplace demands, but that doesn't always explain why it can feel so hard to slow down or recover.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:25.519
In this episode, we'll be exploring what burnout is, how it shows up in and beyond work, what's happening in the nervous system, and our response to pressure and to recovery.
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:27.599
I'm delighted to be joined today by Dr.
00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:35.280
Claire Plumley, clinical psychologist and author of Burnout, How to Manage Your Nervous System Before It Manages You.
00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:36.959
Claire, huge welcome.
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:41.439
Could you start by telling us a little about your work and what drew you into this area?
00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:43.359
Hi, thanks for the intro.
00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:49.200
I'm a clinical psychologist, as you say, and I used to work in the NHS up until 2017.
00:01:49.280 --> 00:02:10.240
So I previously worked in an IAP service, so alongside GPs, and then in a sexual assault service, and then moved to Somerset, where I changed into seeing private practice clients, found that I was seeing a lot more people, such as doctors, nurses, veterinary staff, teachers, all coming with things that related to work.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:17.599
And I started to investigate burnout a little bit more and realized that I was drawing a lot on my trauma training.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:22.479
And I felt that that was really helpful for my clients who were presenting with burnout.
00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:30.479
And that led me to write my own book because I felt that actually this could be really helpful for other people to understand as well.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.000
Yeah, and I think that's so interesting because we don't always think about those links between burnout and trauma.
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:42.159
Let's start with some of the basics, what we really mean by burnout, and how it's different to stress.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.960
And what's your working definition of burnout?
00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:46.560
How would you consider it?
00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:52.639
So, burnout for me is it's different to stress, in that stress is about over-engagement.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:58.800
You've got all the stresses coming in, and we're really engaged and trying to fix and get to the end and sort it out.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:03.039
The problem is quite often in everyday life is that there aren't any endpoints.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:08.560
You know, there's such a short feedback loop when you do something, you send it off, and then suddenly it's back in your inbox.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:19.680
And that's the same for lots of different parts of our life because we have an always-on culture now, that we quite often end up never getting to the point we feel able to retreat and and rest.
00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:28.960
So burnout comes then when you become trapped in stress and when there's an uneven balance between the stresses coming in and the amount of resources you have access to.
00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.879
Stress is about over-engagement then, burnout is about disengagement.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:39.199
We start to close down and go into that kind of place of retreat in ourselves, not through choice.
00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:47.360
And I don't think people always realize how much they've disconnected from their own body, from the people around them, from the joy that they used to get from work.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:55.919
They just know that things aren't right, and maybe they recognise that they're snapping or dropping some of those spinning plates, you know, missing things, forgetting things.
00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:02.080
You know, I've had people worry that they got early onset dementia because they don't feel like they're cognitively sharp anymore.
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.479
But this is what this disconnection and disengagement can look like.
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.960
So I think that's maybe a helpful distinction and how I look at it.
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:15.599
Stress is over engagement, disengagement is more the burnout, shutdown part.
00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:16.720
That's really helpful.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.399
Some element of stress can be healthy and it helps motivate us.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:25.920
And we respond by increasing our activity and maybe getting stuff done as a response.
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:35.040
But then when we're struggling to get more done, when we're reaching a ceiling perhaps, and actually we almost do less because we feel like this is way too much.
00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:42.480
I can't, I can't handle this, or our brain starts dropping bits, as you say, then it's moving beyond stress.
00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.759
And I think stress is a continuum in its own right, isn't it?
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.600
This the early part can be positive.
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I think at the top end it's often quite damaging.
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And then burnout's that kind of final place where really the system's starting to break down.
00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:55.680
Absolutely.
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There's a famous bell curve which I include in my book, The Yerkes-Dodson Bell Curve, which is all about optimal stresses for optimal functioning.
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And in and of itself, stress is coming in, can motivate us, they feel engaging, and it feels pleasing to move towards and be motivated by outcomes and goals.
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:23.680
But if we have too many, we don't have enough resources or stress buffers, then we do tip out the other side of that stress curve.
00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:31.120
And I think unfortunately, you know, where where people are at the top of their curve, ideally trying to like stay just before the top of that curve.
00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:41.680
Often people are on the cusp of tipping into burnout and overwhelm quite a lot of the time, partly because our systems are set up like that, and partly because people have kind of got used to living on the edge like that.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:46.800
And yeah, so unfortunately, it is quite a common problem that people are describing.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:06:01.519
Yes, a lot of people I see are really walking at that top end where they're perhaps not quite burnt out, but they are definitely at risk of tipping in, and it might only take a few additional pressures or a few things going wrong before they hit overwhelms.
00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:06.000
There's just very little room in the system for challenge or unexpected problems.
00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:09.920
And then when they happen, there's just very little capacity to be able to cope.
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:16.160
And I think it's the culture we're in at the moment, it's that kind of do more, be better, achieve more.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:17.839
And I think more is not always better.
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Like you say, there's that there's that curve where increasing some sense of pressure and achievement is really positive, but it's not a continual.
00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.639
We can't then keep ramping that up and think that's going to be a positive because in the end it'll just dip off again.
00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:36.240
Yeah, and I think a lot of people really struggle with thinking about what do I need to stop or remove in order to say yes to things.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:46.720
There's research that shows that even with well-being tools, we'll quite often be drawn to adding more in rather than thinking about ones that involve like less.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:52.160
I think it's really tricky because we need these boundaries and we need to be able to make space for things.
00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:58.079
Less is often more, but I think it can feel like we're missing out or failing or letting others down.
00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:59.439
So it can be complex.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:16.240
And I think in what certain workplaces where your identities become very enmeshed and fused with your identity and work are kind of one and the same, just trying to think about workload and doing less becomes a threat in of itself because then who am I if I start to do less?
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.879
You mentioned in the book how burnout is defined as an occupational phenomena.
00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:22.639
It's linked to work.
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And so obviously the environment at work, the pressures, the expectations, how work is structured, our relationships with our team members, how many emails we get, how much is on our to-do list, all of that is likely to impact just as much as our own personal responses.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:44.959
But I'm also just thinking about people that I've seen where they might have burnout for other reasons that are not just work-related.
00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:58.399
And I've certainly seen people who may have pressures at home, perhaps they're caring for an unwell relative, they've got a child who has a lot of additional needs, for example, and people can also have a pattern that feels to me very similar to burnout.
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And I wondered if that's been your experience as well.
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.399
Absolutely, yes.
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:11.360
Because the official definition talks about unmanaged chronic occupational stress as being like essential to kind of being able to call it burnout.
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:21.519
But I'm arguing in the book that actually we tend to understand occupational as meaning paid occupation, but actually there's lots of places in our life where we are doing unpaid labour.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:25.519
Parenting, caring for relatives, studying.
00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:30.720
And these these are often places that aren't really acknowledged as being work.
00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:37.440
And so that adds to it because it's invisible work, and we kind of think everyone else is managing and carrying all these like different loads, but are they?
00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:44.399
So, yes, there's more going into research being in parental burnout, and there is now an inventory on that, and there's a carer's inventory.
00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:51.919
So if you kind of want to have a kind of little self-assessment, a lot of them are freely available and can be really helpful to see the items laid out.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.240
There is an item on the parental burnout that's something like, I love my children, but I don't want to be near them.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:09.120
These are the kind of things that people will be saying, and that's that disengagement, that disconnect that we see in burnout, which is hard if you're wanting to be a good parent and it doesn't gel with your values and what you want for yourself and your family life.
00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:18.960
And I think there are certain times in your life where you might have some of these like dual pressures, like that sandwich generation where you've got elderly parents and dependents, which will put you at higher risk as well.
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:25.039
Yes, and often also carrying responsibilities at work and all kinds of complexity.
00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:34.080
And so I remember I didn't we did an episode with an occupational therapist who was talking about the fact that actually anything we engage in can be considered an occupation.
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.639
So even hobbies can be considered occupations.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:44.000
And on that definition, then we could look perhaps at the balance of all the different pressures that may cover different aspects of life.
00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:53.600
And so it feels very much like how do I understand the pattern of my life and how I'm living and all the things I need to do and that are important to me and that I want to be resourced to do.
00:09:53.679 --> 00:10:00.320
And that feels more helpful than being very specific about it's all all related to work as in a paid occupation.
00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:05.120
So in clinical psychology, we would always look at the whole areas of life.
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:12.399
We would always think holistically about the different areas of your work and map that out and see what the different external pressures are for you.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:21.120
It's often the straw that broke the camel's back in that something small can happen and then people can tip into really feeling overwhelmed.
00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:29.600
It might be that there's just that one email that feels too much, and but actually it's the all the other things cumulatively that really need to be taken into account.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:46.240
So can you talk to us a little bit about what is happening in the body and in the nervous system when people are starting to develop burnout that can help us understand what's happening in burnout and also start to make sense of why trauma may well be important?
00:10:47.039 --> 00:11:11.120
So the way I talk to my clients about the autonomic nervous system, which is the part of the nervous system that's responsible for keeping us safe, it's the part of us that's always on, always attuned to our environment, the faces around us, the facial expressions of people and the body language of the people around us, the other senses and cues from the environment, so sounds, the smells in the air and everything around us.
00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:17.200
And the beautiful thing about the autonomic nervous system is that we don't need to consciously be aware of that.
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.759
It's always on and always looking after us.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:31.120
What that means is that we should spend a lot of our time in the part of our autonomic nervous system that allows us to be attuned to our environment and think clearly.
00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:39.679
So I refer to this as the green, it's the ventral vagal part of the parasympathetic nervous system, if you want all the technical words, which I'm sure your audience enjoy.
00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:48.399
And when we're in this part of our autonomic nervous system, we're able to accurately read the facial expressions of those around us.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:12:01.840
We're able to use all our frontal lobes and executive functioning that's housed there, which means we can problem solve, we can think about abstract things, we can eloquently find our language and comprehend what people are saying to us.
00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:11.919
And then down in the body, we've got everything happening business as usual, in terms of our heart rate, our resting kind of digestive system is able to be on.
00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:18.960
And so we need to be coming back to that state regularly as well to kind of reset ourselves and to replenish.
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.759
And that's the only place really where we can switch down our gears into green.
00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.600
When we're here, we can sleep and we can rest properly.
00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:38.480
When stress has come in, like emails or like rushing around and having our to-do list, autonomic nervous system's first line of defense is to switch into the amber sympathetic nervous system.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:48.399
And this is the fight or flight place where everything kind of revs up again and the stress hormones that are released are designed to get us into action quickly.
00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:53.360
So we have a surge of motivation and energy to help us do that.
00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:55.120
This can feel urgent.
00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.960
So we can feel like we don't have time to stop and have our cup of coffee.
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.679
I'm always saying to my clients, you know, that's a s that's a sign.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:06.240
If you don't think you've got time to do any of the things we've talked about, it's a sign that you need it even more.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:20.240
Because when we're in that place, it's not just our body that's switched gear, you know, our heart rate has gone up a little bit, digestive system has kind of switched over and lent out all its resources to the large skeletal muscles for the fight or flight responses.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.960
And that's why slowing down feels so hard.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.679
It almost feels like a threat because the body wants to be moving and it's got all this energy to plow into something.
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:33.840
So a dropping into a mindfulness exercise or slowing the body down can feel really tricky for us.
00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:38.879
And if we don't understand why, we can end up thinking it's not working, it's pointless.
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:48.000
So obviously, we're only designed to be in that for a short period of time in order to get through the stresses because it puts a stress on our bodies.
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.200
And if you don't come back to a reset, this can start to have wear and tear on our organs.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:14:00.159
That also does mean you're not you're gonna struggle to fall asleep because you've got so much energy in your system that's got to go somewhere.
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:05.360
So that's that tired but wired kind of experience that people often describe in burnout.
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:11.600
And then the final pace of the autonomic nervous system is this kind of shutdown place that we see.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:30.320
And if you think about the animal kingdom, when you see this, if the prey is being chased by the predator, you'll have seen, I'm sure, some David Attenborough, where the uh animal that being chased will play its final kind of get out of jail free card by just flopping and playing dead, and it can even stop its breathing.
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:40.399
And that might seem like a strange strategy to immobilize for safety, but the reason it works is because the predator then thinks, well, this isn't fun anymore, and it wanders off.
00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:44.960
And so the the the prey has managed to kind of stay alive one more day.
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:49.360
And so we might not flop like that, although I have seen people do that.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:15:04.799
People have said they haven't been able to get out of bed one day, for example, and people can get kind of very physically heavy, but also just on a cognitive level, what that can look like is that you're kind of going through the motions without really connecting to what's going on around you.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:17.840
This is the masking that can happen from why people can find they don't really realize that they are in this place, because even when we're there, if we're managing to kind of operate on some level, we're relying on procedural memory.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:25.759
Procedural memory is the part of our memory that allows us to do quite complex sets of actions through rote learning.
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:32.000
Like, for example, I can make a cup of tea without needing to think, oh now I'm boiling the kettle, now I'm putting the tea bag in the cup.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.039
I can drive.
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.440
That's a really complex set of actions.
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.679
I'm not thinking, now my foot's going on the gas, now I'm moving the clutch.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:49.279
And so we can sometimes get through large chunks of the day without having to really rely on our frontal lobes all that much, all that lovely executive function that I'm talking about.
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:58.799
The only time then we might realize things aren't good is when, you know, someone says, Well, can you recall that new procedure that we learned yesterday at work?
00:15:59.039 --> 00:15:59.360
No.
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.279
Can you remember the new person's name?
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:01.840
No.
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.240
And you're driving home and there's a blockage and you have to think of a new route and you can't do it.
00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:15.360
Like decision making as well is a good marker that you're here because decisions which you need that cognitive capacity for just feel completely overwhelmed and we can't do it.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:19.519
These are good examples, I think, that people can be looking out for as red flags.
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.159
And I like to think of it like gears on a car.
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:25.200
You want to be getting the fluidity up and down the gears.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:33.919
And I think in burnout, people have got stuck oscillating between that amber and that red shutdown place, and they're not getting any look in with green really at all.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.960
And the positive emotions, the content emotions that you get there.
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.679
So, what I'm hearing is we've got three states of the autonomic nervous system.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.399
There's green, there's amber, and there's red.
00:16:44.559 --> 00:17:09.119
And proportionately we want to be spending more of our time in green, which is where we're more regulated, where we can think flexibly, we're doing the things that matter to us, and our body is not under pressure, so we're healing and our body's got time to recharge physically as well as emotionally, and think about all the complex stuff that we're dealing with in day-to-day life and make decisions and deal with situations which might be complex and need lots of thinking about.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:19.440
So, most of life, we probably need that to be able to do our jobs, to be able to decide how to manage our kids when they want to push the boundaries and we're not sure how to parent them.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.359
We we really need green for that, don't we?
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:22.799
Just as a starting point.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.559
Yeah, and and playfulness.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.680
Like, you know, playful parenting involves you needing to be in green.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.279
You need creative thought.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.559
Your creative thought is housed in the green frontal lobes.
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:38.480
And this is part of the difficulty, I think, with some of the techniques we're taught for stress management and supporting ourselves.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:43.119
They can rely too much on green mode already being online.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:18:00.880
Because the thing with the autonomic nervous system, you know, is very much the brain stem talking to the body, because the way all the nerves are connecting through the body, talking to each other, passing messages up and down, 80% of the direction of travel goes from the body to the brain.
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:08.799
So only 20% goes brain to body, which means that those purely cognitive tech techniques, you might struggle to start with those.
00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:32.799
So, for example, like a thought balancing or problem solving technique or journaling, you might need to do something to kind of work the energy out, slow, regular breathing to kind of bring the body down, somatic exercises that kind of movement and stretches when you're feeling very dysregulated before you can access those sitting and working things out with a pen and paper type exercises.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:33.279
Right.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:43.440
So that would fit with what I would often say to people, which is when you're very dysregulated, if you're very stressed, very anxious, high intense any emotion really, then we're not in green.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:53.519
And so trying to think at that point is really a mismatch because we need to get to green before we can think, so we have to find a way to get to green and then we can think about it.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:09.200
This is the choice pause, a short tool you'll hear in every episode drawn from my books and therapy practice, each time with something different to help you pause, notice, and choose your next step.
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:18.880
Today is a pause for stepping out of overdrive when we hit amber and we're feeling overactivated and stressed, and back down to green.
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.039
Take a slow breath in and a longer breath out.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:29.039
Let your shoulders be heavy and let go of any tension in your face or jaw.
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.920
At times you may notice that things are starting to feel urgent.
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:42.000
Your thoughts are moving quickly, you're planning ahead, trying to stay on top of everything, and it's all starting to feel a little overwhelming.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:53.920
This might show up as you're working through the tasks on your to-do list, replying to messages, or trying to juggle everything that you need to get done today and feeling a pressure to keep going.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.119
When this happens, it can feel difficult to pause.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:00.240
We may feel that we just need to keep pressing on.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:09.680
And yet a brief pause can start to ease some of that pressure just enough to give you a little more choice and find a little more space.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.640
Let your attention come to your breathing.
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:16.799
Take a breath in and another slow exhale.
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.759
Notice if you're holding tension anywhere in your body, just let it go.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.559
Notice any sense of tightness or drive or an urge to keep going.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:33.839
Maybe say to yourself, I can feel this pressure right now, and I can meet this with a bit of understanding.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.319
Maybe you could give yourself permission to slow the pace just a little.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.119
What would it look like to take the next step with just a little less urgency or pressure?
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.240
To pause for a few seconds before continuing.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.720
To step back briefly before moving on to the next task.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:58.559
As you continue with your day, start to notice any moments of pressure or tension.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.759
And allow yourself a small pause to step out of them when you can.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:13.200
So just to sort of summarise, we go from green when we've got lots on our to-do list or some pressures and stresses, we go up to amber.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.160
And it sounds like that would be helpful in the short term.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.880
It energizes us to start dealing with them.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:23.519
So it's it's important to have the capacity to go into amber.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:31.680
But if we get stuck there, then that feels quite unhelpful and a chronic stress where our body and brain is really struggling.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:38.160
And then when that persists for a long time or gets more extreme, then we go up into red, which is this shutdown zone.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.759
And you you talked about the fight, flight, and then the freeze response.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:49.200
And that does sound quite similar to trauma, where sometimes we do go into freeze when we're facing something that feels I'm powerless.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.160
This is a threat which is outside my power to deal with.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:59.839
So the body's response is I'm just gonna check out because I need to just distance myself from something quite horrific that's happening that I can't stop.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.160
I'm wondering if there's parallel to that when we're just feeling so overwhelmed by the chronic stresses in our work.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.319
The brain is like, look, this is just too much.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:09.759
So I'm out for a while.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.960
I just need to sort of step back.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.960
And then we're obviously disconnected.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:14.240
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.039
And this is why I use the the word trauma.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:23.440
Actually, the US version of my book is called the trauma of burnout, because I think it's the same processes.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:29.440
And if you look at the definitions of trauma, they include things like constant violation of boundaries.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.119
You know, in in say sexual trauma, that'll be a physical boundary.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:38.480
In emotional trauma, that's violation of your personal boundaries and wishes.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.960
It's kind of like the stresses have come in and there aren't any boundaries and there's no escape.
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.759
A good metaphor is that imagine you're playing tennis against a tennis ball machine.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.519
And when you've got one tennis ball machine, you can return the shots.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.039
That's manageable and feels good.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.359
But now a second tennis ball rolls in.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.519
So maybe the first one was a new procedure at work.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:11.279
Now the second tennis ball rolls in, and that's maybe a problem at home where you've got, you know, a child who needs a neurodiversity assessment and you're not sure where to proceed, and then your ball machine's rolled out, and you know, it's another change at work.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:24.720
And if you're stuck trying to respond to all of these balls and you're getting pummeled by them, there's only so long that you're going to feel able to respond to that before you then drop into a ball yourself on the court so that you're not going to get hit so badly.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.039
Such a helpful analogy.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:33.920
And I I think you can just imagine they're coming faster and faster and faster, and then we end up thinking, I just can't do this.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.319
I give up, and our brain just shuts down and stops trying.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:48.079
And there's a point at which we're desperately trying to hit them all back and to keep those plates juggling, and and that's maybe the amber zone where we're really trying to push hard and get everything done.
00:23:48.319 --> 00:24:02.319
And sometimes I see people go between the two and they they might spend a lot of time, as you you say, going from amber to red, and then they sort of manage to get it back down again, but only as far as amber, and then they're back up to red again, but and very rarely down to green.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.160
I think the thing with burnout is that you know it's a slippery slope.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:13.839
If you think about stress, moving into chronic stress, moving into functional burnout, and then clinical burnout.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:19.680
The functional burnout for me is when people are oscillating between their amber, the red zones.
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:26.000
Whereas clinical burnout, if someone can't get up and go to work, their body's forced to stop for them.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:35.599
Um, you know, maybe they've had a really scary cardiac issue or another physical health issue because the two are very linked, and sometimes that's the thing that stopped them.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.799
Um, you know, I've had people who couldn't talk one day.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:44.400
I've had a couple of people who just couldn't find words and they're normally able to completely function, high functioning.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:54.960
Um, that for me is when they've dropped into red and they they're frozen, they're dissociative, or unable to use their body and their brain in the way that they would like to.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:05.119
I've done quite a lot of work with women entering the menopause, and and often the menopause itself can be that extra tennis ball machine that suddenly starts firing a whole load of balls.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.359
There might be physical balls to deal with.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:21.680
So there's all the physical effects of menopause and then the the changes in, you know, having the brain fog, and all of a sudden, all the coping strategies we are managing to hit back that ball just about, who are maybe in amber, but then it just feels like this is too fast.
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.960
But and often actually that's a group who do have the sandwich generation issues going on as well.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.160
I totally agree.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:32.240
I think with that age group, it's really hard to untangle it all and it's all having an impact.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.839
And I think it's good to have those conversations to see all the different things because often you can't see the wood for the trees when you're in it.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.960
And that age group are also more likely to be more senior at work.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:54.079
You've got to a point in your career where you're holding a lot of responsibility, and again, you're sandwiched at work with the people you're responsible for and caring for, wanting to support them, and then the top-down projects and things being told from up above that you have to achieve.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.920
And then, yeah, the hormones, I know that that puts a stress on the body.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:12.240
If your estrogen starts to drop off, that's going to kind of start triggering a bit of the threat response, which has the impact on us that we've been talking about, where you're switching into that more negative thinking style where we feel more catastrophic or anxious.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.759
It's coming from within at that point, which can be hard to put your finger on then.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:16.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:23.200
It's just that intersection between the hormonal impact, the life stressors, our thinking patterns.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:36.160
Often we also have coping strategies throughout life, like maybe wanting to be people pleasers and rescuers, and so we've got the collision of all of those different factors that I think can then make it a really challenging period of life.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:42.000
And I think it's really interesting to think about burnout as one of the ways to make sense of some of that.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:50.720
I'm I'm thinking about the type of pressures and whether all pressures are the same or whether certain types of stress are more significant for some people.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:27:04.480
So sometimes, in my experience, challenging relationships at work can have a particularly triggering impact, or struggling with maintaining boundaries can also make people more likely to go up to amber and then quite more quickly up to red.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:11.200
I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about how relationships might impact on progression between the zones.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.240
Absolutely.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.119
I mean, relationships, we are social creatures.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:26.000
Our physiology was designed to help us stay in the social group because we need to feel belonging, we need to know that you know our group have got our back and that we're going to be safe.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:35.599
We see that from birth when babies come out and they're designed to look for faces and to move their head towards the voices that are familiar, and then they feel good, they feel safe.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.559
And we carry that into adulthood, we don't ever lose that.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.200
And, you know, this is all about attachment, and we know how painful it is if an attachment is ruptured in any way.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:52.240
So part of that autonomic nervous system picking up cues of safety is all about am I still belonging in this group?
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.880
And also not just that, but where's my social order rank here?
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:04.880
Because if we're at the very bottom of that social group, there's a risk we could fall out of it and be ostracised or left behind by the pack.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:19.519
And so we can get very focused on where we are in the social rank, which is another risk for burnout because of that insecure striving to make sure we're not seen as lower or less than by our peers, by the people whose opinions we care about.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:34.240
So I think that could be triggering even if there's not really a toxic relationship at work, if we perceive there to be an issue that we've let other ourselves down or others down or are being poorly thought of, that will trigger a threat, a feeling of rejection.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:39.200
And so, yeah, it's good to recognize that because it is important to us as humans.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:45.920
It is tricky being in a human body because we have that physiology that we'll just get fired up, even if we, you know, recognize and know it.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:55.519
It's good to know that that has happened so we can take that step back and breathe through it and like take a moment before responding to the email or or whatever the conversation needs to be.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:07.519
And it is hard learning those skills to maintain a working relationship because you have to be able to tolerate a little bit of challenge sometimes to kind of maintain that place in the social group at work.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:18.319
But the other thing I just want to highlight is the term co-regulation, which is that when we we talk a lot about self-regulation in an in often in therapy, and we think about that, don't we?
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.640
Because it's it's easy, we can focus on ourselves, we just self-regulate through breathing and whatnot.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:35.359
But co-regulation is when we settle our nervous systems by vibing off someone else's calm and regulated nervous system, like a young child would do if they were dysregulated and a parent they're there and hugging them.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.440
This is co-regulation happening, and you start to model that and learn that.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.200
But there isn't ever a point in our life where we let go of needing that.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.160
That's always going to be really helpful to us.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:53.279
Seeking that out and having a sense that the people around us have got our back is really important for that psychological safety.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:06.960
The the opposite of it is co-escalation, you know, when people come in and they're anxious and they're setting each other off, and we all know what kind of terrible workplace that is to work in, because you know, everyone's arguing and unpleasant and like competitive.
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:26.240
It's really interesting to think about that impact of being in a workplace or perhaps even a home life where there's a lot of challenge and threat and challenging relationships, and how important actually to try and get working relationships that that feel supportive, that feel safe for everybody, and then enable that co-regulation.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:48.720
And it's interesting to think about the idea of wanting to support others and build connections being a positive thing versus the people-pleasing side, which is much more that threat-based, where we're doing it in amber because it's a threat response, but and when it doesn't work, we might go into Red, we then disengage completely and think I can't please this person, so I'm gonna check out.
00:30:48.799 --> 00:31:08.559
And then we might come back to trying really hard when we're in amber to make sure that everybody likes us and we're pushing ourselves really hard to do that, versus the co-regulation where we're focusing on positive relationships, connection, supporting one another, and how on the outside it might not look that different, but on the inside it's a hugely different internal response.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.519
Yes, because people pleasing in that way that you've just framed it would be fawning, you know, if we were to use the trauma language for it.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.720
It's safer just to push my own needs down.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.400
And I'm reading that facial expression, like, is this okay?
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:23.920
This is what they're looking for.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.119
And yeah, that absolutely this just reinforces any vicious cycles that we're we're stuck in.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:38.480
I do think it's really important the workspaces and workplaces are creating space where people can have conversations that aren't just work-related.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:46.240
When I worked in the NHS, when I first started in 2008, we had a really lovely staff room with a big picture window looking out.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:59.039
And then we moved and we got given like a tiny internal room which was like the size of a small desk for one person at a time with one microwave, nowhere to sit, nowhere to look out into the natural light.
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:00.880
You know, and the these are important.
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:06.000
They're not just nice to have because you can't have a water cooler moment if there's no water cooler.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:10.079
And this is the kind of social lubricant, I guess, that makes work feel safer.
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:14.880
There's a lot of people homeworking now, and it's very positive in a lot of ways.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:34.559
It might help us connect more with families or be more present, but there's also a risk that we become quite disconnected if we're not physically seeing our colleagues and having that water cooler moment because we're actually very disconnected physically or geographically, and I think there are ways to try to get across that divide.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:45.759
It's one of those things that we can support one another across a space, across the the internet, but I just feel like it's really healthy to have some face-to-face interaction as part of that.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.839
It's getting that balance, isn't it?
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:53.279
Yeah, I think it's a tough gig if you just work solely at home and there's no hybrid working.
00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:02.720
And I do think finding a way to have some face-to-face contact with someone as a regular way of keeping connected with yourself and your team is really important.
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:12.880
So if we start to think about how to create a sense of balancing the nervous system, and I know there's lots of information in your book.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:24.559
For today, we'll we'll just focus on some of the practical tools that people can use, perhaps before they've reached really significant burnout, but they may be spending too much time in amber and they're occasionally going up into red.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:35.599
And so it's trying to think, okay, how do I shift everything down a gear like you described, so that I'm spending more time in green than in amber, and I'm hardly ever going into the red zone.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:41.119
What kind of practical changes could we start to do that might help us to achieve that?
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.599
I think it's helpful to start recognizing it and by listening to this is a is a first point.
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.079
So I think just want to acknowledge that you can't do anything unless you start to recognize it.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:58.960
I think there's a lot of value in trying to have a conversation with someone you feel like you could have a chat to to try and work out what all the external stresses are that you're dealing with.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:04.240
In therapy, when I see people, we're just having a conversation early on and trying to get them all out.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:10.079
And quite often people will see from my reaction that that's a lot and they hadn't realized how much they were carrying.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:20.159
But this also then offers an opportunity to begin to think, you know, where's the wiggle room here for putting one of these plates, spinning plates, down, even if it's just temporarily?
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:33.840
And that's sometimes just easier to do with another human being who can kind of help you, who can kind of lend out their frontal lobes whilst yours are a little bit offline, because it's really hard to have that type of thought and process and conversation on your own.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.880
Obviously, that's where professional conversation might be easier if you feel too vulnerable to have it with someone, but there might be someone already in your network.
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:49.119
Or just starting to get a piece of paper out and just starting to write things down, because compassion for oneself can start with allowing support in.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:55.840
If you think about a wounded animal, they'll often hide and they do that because they're worried about being outcast from the pack or picked off by a predator.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.760
And we do have that in us too.
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:08.320
So I think acknowledging that and naming that, fear of being vulnerable, but you saying actually there's a lot here can be really validating and be the start of the next step.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:17.840
I've done a lot of work with people where we just do an initial conversation and we're starting to list, okay, what's going on, just start by trying to understand.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:22.880
And then this list is really long, and there's so many complex aspects to it.
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:32.880
And oh, yes, but also I'm dealing with this, and oh, yeah, and actually there's that, and then I I lost my dad last year, and then there's this other pressure at work, and then my kids are and it goes on and on and on.
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.119
There might be a physical health aspect, and it is so therapeutic.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:45.360
Often people will come back and say, you know what, just listing that and having someone say, Wow, that's a lot, was so helpful.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:52.239
And I think we can, if we find someone supportive, that doesn't have to necessarily be a therapist, it doesn't have to be a doctor.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.199
Somebody, as you say, somebody supportive.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.000
We're already working in a lot in the amber zone.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:03.280
So we want someone relatively safe, is what I would say, because if someone's prone to being a bit critical.
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:03.760
Yeah.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.559
Or a worry war, or like can't cope with you feeling a little bit um dysregulated.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.280
So someone who's kind of we're asking for a lot here.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:12.079
No, we're not.
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.199
But sometimes it can help to set up the conversation.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:28.079
I would encourage people to say, don't worry, I'm not expecting you to fix all this, but it would be really helpful just to have a space where I can tell you about it and just for you to say that you've heard it, and that's all I'm really after.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.400
So you're not responsible for it and I'm not expecting you to deal with it.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:35.920
It would just be really helpful to have a safe space to be able to just say it out loud.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:44.000
That's so beautiful because I feel like a big barrier for people is the fear of being a burden and um actually allowing someone in.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.440
Most people don't experience it as being burdened.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.000
They might have a concern and check up on you.
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:58.559
But if you think about how it feels when you felt strong and someone's come to you, you've often actually felt good that you can offer something.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:02.639
Humans were designed to be interdependent, not independent.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.079
But somehow that message has got lost along the way.
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:16.559
And we've absorbed this idea that we should be solving our own problems, doing our own self-care, and then presenting ourselves to the world with the finished polished product.
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.320
But friendships are deeper when we offer a little bit of vulnerability and allow people in.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.639
Those are really authentic relationships.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.480
Yeah, uh completely.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:35.119
And I think if people are very worried about that sense of being a burden, you can also say, I'm very happy to listen to you.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.039
If you have anything you'd like to share to me, I'm more than happy to listen to.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.639
It's not a one-way thing.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:50.159
And so you can actually name that if it makes it feel easier, but also as we do share, it also does give that other per person permission to be able to share back.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:58.000
So, because you're demonstrating some vulnerability that they may then think, actually, this is a safe person, I can share with them.
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:15.039
So it's creating a culture where actually there's a little bit more willingness to express some of the things we find hard rather than showing up looking all shiny and social media positive and everything looking good on the surface, but underneath there's all kinds of chaos going on that nobody's talking about.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:22.320
And the intervention there isn't to go in and jump in with a solution because often someone's not at that point.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.480
They just want to be heard and validated that this is actually a lot and it's too much.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.920
And the image that always comes up to my mind is inside out.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:41.519
Have you seen that film where sadness is overwhelmed with sadness and joy comes along and tries to kind of pep her up with all the solutions and things she should be thinking about.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:50.320
But actually, what she needs is someone to sit alongside her, which the imaginary friend comes and does very effectively and just says that sounds rubbish.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:53.039
You don't need to be a therapist to provide that for someone.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:39:06.159
And and what's coming to mind there is that some of the healing, and I think that does come through in the movie Inside Out as well, is that when we're facing change and stress and problems, then part of what we're needing to do is mourn.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:13.119
There's a mourning about something is hard, and maybe I have a little bit of grief around this change.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:17.280
And being able to express that is really powerful and really healing.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:34.239
And that's why sadness was so key to recovery in the movie Inside Out, because some of that was about change and needing to acknowledge that I just feel sad about this, and then there'll be space for me to find all the happy stuff and move forward and engage in the positive parts of life.
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.800
But you can't just push out the sadness and ignore it.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.199
We do need to make space for it, hear it.
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.719
And I think it's much less problematic once it's been heard.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.239
It kind of creates space then for us to then move on.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:47.679
Yeah, I love that.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:51.199
Thank you for bringing it back to that because that's so important.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:53.920
Let's finish with our choice space takeaway.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:40:01.519
So for someone who recognises some early stages of burnout, what might be some small steps that they could take this week?
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:06.719
My favourite practical tip is to think about the transition points in your day.
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:11.440
So, for example, we're about to transition out of this podcast into something else.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:12.800
I'm gonna go and do the school run.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:22.320
So I've been in my thinking work mode, and I'm gonna be transitioning into needing to be more attuned to my youngster and uh his needs from the day.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:23.920
I don't know what he's gonna bring out of school.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.079
And at that point, the transition, I've also got to travel um in the car.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:46.159
So thinking about those transition points in your day as an opportunity, and how you can lean into those to really notice what where your body is, what gear is it in, what do you need right now in order to meet the need, and to think about then what you're going into the next moment of the day with.
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:53.199
A little bit like how you might look out of the window, and if it's snowing outside, you wouldn't just rush out, you would stop and put a coat on.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:41:12.320
I feel like we are so conditioned to crashing from one thing to another without thinking about the pause that that could be there, and you know, resetting ourselves and also thinking about what is about to happen and what kind of cognition, like social level, capacity, energy level we need.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.880
That, you know, we we end up crashing from one thing to another to the end of the day, and then we're wrung out and we can't fall asleep.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:25.199
So after this, I've been sat still for a while and I'm noticing kind of a bit of tension around the top of my shoulders and back.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.440
So I'm getting an urge to really stretch that out.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:38.639
Park round the corner, so I've got a few extra minutes just walking, walking it all out, so that when I reach the school gate, I can feel like I can be more present for him.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.719
Otherwise, I'll have this conversation in my head.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.320
I'll be thinking, oh, I forgot to say this.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.519
So it just gives my body and brain a little bit longer to reset.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.159
I love that.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:42:14.639
And I'm gonna, I think, build on that, which is to put these pauses in through the day so that we're not just rushing from activity to activity, that we are creating these transition points that are not instantaneous, and that it might be just a one-minute pause or a five-minute pause where we allow time to go back to green before we then move on to the next pressure, and then we're we're doing these micro-regulations throughout the day where which stop us having this cumulative impact where it's just going up and up and up.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.400
It's like a pressure cooker, otherwise, isn't it?
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:16.559
Yeah.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:16.880
Exactly.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:21.840
I've had this conversation with people before, and somebody once said, But I haven't got any transition points in my day.
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:27.360
And when we looked at her day, she was kind of right because they were back-to-back meetings with no compassionate moments.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:33.519
So we talked about which of the meetings she had control over and scheduling them five or ten minutes past the hour.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:40.159
You know, it's really tricky to put a boundary in like that, but there will be transition points even if you can't see them, if you're moving from online meeting to online meeting.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:43.039
When that meeting ends and you start another one, there's the pause.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:51.679
So do, like as you said, stand up, move your body, go to the toilet, splash cold water in your face, whatever it is, take a few deep breaths.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.800
If you really can't find the space, that's a bit of a red flag in its own right, I think.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:02.079
That's likely to be a risky lifestyle that would that means that your body's under pressure already.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:12.559
So I think it might be about really looking and just listing all the things that we're dealing with, like you were talking about, and then starting to just get a framework of okay, what is this stuff that I'm having to carry right now?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:14.239
And where are the spaces?
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:15.599
Where could these spaces be?
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:25.039
Like you say, finishing meeting five, ten minutes early, setting that as your regular, getting up and walking for a minute in between, just having that as a normal.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:30.000
These things I think they can be done, but we need to be quite forceful of ourselves.
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:34.400
It's I think it's our own internal boundaries we often need to manage to make that happen.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:37.199
Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast.
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:42.320
I hope this conversation has offered a little space for you to pause and find your next step.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:47.519
You'll find ways to connect with Claire, along with links to her book and website in the show notes.
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:55.519
If this episode has been helpful, you can download it, follow the podcast, and please share with anyone else who might value the conversation as well.
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.280
Please also leave a rating or review on whatever platform you're listening on.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.079
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