Ep. 32: Scaling Without Breaking: Risk, Culture, and Modern HR with Abby Gates

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Welcome to the CEO Sisters Road Trip.
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I'm Sarah, and alongside me is my sister Liz.
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We're your co-pilots here to help you flourish in your business and in your life.
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Each week we share relatable stories, strategic advice, and a whole lot of laughs as we tackle the real challenges, finance, marketing, vision, and team.
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Get ready to find your clear path forward and have some fun doing it.
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You nailed that one.
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I sure did.
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Wow!
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Take 343, we got it.
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No, today was Take Uno.
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Okay, episode 31.
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How about that?
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Episode 31, correct.
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Episode 31.
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This episode is brought to us by Toby Flinderson.
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Yeah, HR guy from the office.
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Toby Flenderson, everyone's favorite HR person.
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Now, I this is Toby.
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A, we were watching The Office last night.
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Um and I just I can't get enough of that show.
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But our guest, her name is Abby Gates, and she owns a business called Sproutwise, which is in a sense uh fractional HR.
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And so she comes in and helps I think she particularly loves startups to scale and explode with all the operational HR things that she does.
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But I just thought it would be funny because she's the exact opposite of Toby Flenderson.
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But uh yeah, that was my that was my attempt at humor today.
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Huzzah! Bum bum bum bum bum bump.
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Um how's your week, sis?
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You've been doing some exciting creative things.
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I have been.
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I'm back on the wagon, I'm back in the saddle again, folks.
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Um I'm gonna do a standing slow clap for you.
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Okay, a round of applause.
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I am um exploring kind of a new uh angle, a new sub-brand to the Sarah Jane pottery, um, where I'm taking vintage ceramics, things that I find on thrift stores or auctions or estate sales, flea markets, flea markets, but in bags on the side of the road.
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My basement, boxes, the boxes of china that I have from Doug's side of the family, my side of the family.
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All of these beautiful pieces that are sitting in boxes because they're too formal, they're too, they're too something, they're just not my style.
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So I thought I love the idea of repurposing.
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Um, that comes from a thread in my past, working with Honey Rose and Kay.
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And I am adding monograms or logos or some sort of graphic design with an overglaze, firing it in my kiln and repurposing these beautiful pieces into something that people actually want to use.
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I want that.
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Can you can I bring you all of my china from my wedding and absolutely, absolutely.
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That's so it's so fun.
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Anyway, I don't want to take up too much time, but I am I I have a new little creative vision and I'm excited to explore it.
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Yeah.
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It's awesome.
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You know I I I only like you when you're creating.
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I know you do.
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It's the only time.
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And I only like that to me.
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And I only like you when you're at the beach.
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And where are you this week?
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I'm at the beach.
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You're at the beach.
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You can tell by the way, I'm more I'm creating more wrinkles through.
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Sun exposure.
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Yes.
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Oh man, it's been weird though.
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It's um we have this these skies from Canada that are blowing smoke.
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So the sky is covered.
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It's finally, you know, a little nicer today, but it's been hot and muggy and perfect beachy, and uh yeah, and it's almost over.
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Okay, okay, hey, let's let me let me read the bio for our friend Abby Gates.
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Please do.
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Abby Gates is an HR leader with over 20 years of experience, including navigating four successful startup exits.
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After negotiating her own corporate exit during a deeply personal season of caregiving for her late mother, she founded Sproutwise.
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Sproutwise helps rapidly growing startups build their people, their culture, and their team design before things break under the weight of growth.
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I love this so much because I've seen this a bazillion times.
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Beyond her career, she is a solo backpacker, a twin, one of eight siblings.
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She's a mom, a wife, and self-proclaimed gold medalist in personal honesty.
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Without further ado, let's welcome our friend Abby.
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Well, hi Abby.
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Hi, sisters, sisters.
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Welcome.
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Welcome to the show.
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We're so excited to see you and to have you here.
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And thank you for being here on a smoky Friday, as we were just talking about.
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You're in the um death zone, I think is what they're calling it.
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Something like that.
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It feels like it.
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Um, I think I heard Detroit has the worst air in the world, um, which, you know, I our reputation as a city precedes us anyway.
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So it's like maybe it will continue to keep us a well-kept secret.
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I don't know.
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Perfect.
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Um that's how you keep housing prices down.
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Nobody gets more affordable.
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Congrats, Detroit.
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Thanks, Canada.
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Yes, thank you, Canada.
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Um, so we're super excited to see you.
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I wanted uh just a some funny way that you and I met.
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Um, so I thought we would give a shout out to our our friend Mick.
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Mick.
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Mick.
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We love Mick.
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So do tell, do tell.
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Yeah, so Mick, lingquist.
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Hi, Mick.
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Uh he is a client of both of ours, or no, he's a my client and he, you're a client of his.
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Yes.
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Right?
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Yes.
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And so Mick has said the same thing to both of us for a couple months now.
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He's like, I need you to meet Abby.
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She's the greatest.
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She reminds you, reminds me so much of you.
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And then he says the same thing to her.
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You need to meet Liz because she reminds me of you.
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And so finally he connected us together.
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We were both like, oh, that's so nice.
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It was like, it's such a, I feel like it's a humongous compliment if he thinks I remind him of you, because I'm like, dang, she's a fat ass.
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Okay, Mick.
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Well, I thought the same of you.
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So I was like, my gosh, Mick, I I'm so honored.
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And um, and I'm like, and then there's two of you.
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Um and so goodness, yeah.
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So Mick is, yeah, Mick is the loveliest of humans, and he really is.
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And his it's high praise coming from him.
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So yeah, I agree.
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Very honored.
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And and he's a he's a uh he's a regular listener, so he's gonna be excited.
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Awesome.
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Thank you, Mick.
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Very excited, very excited.
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All right, Abby.
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So what I understand is that in your late 20s, you quit your job to backpack solo through Southeast Asia.
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Amazing, which is amazing.
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And this is an activity that must have required a enormous amount of faith to just quit your job and want to do this solo, especially at that age.
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Um, so tell us about that trip and how did it shape the way you view things like risk and identity and reinvention today?
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I and like like many of the things that I now look back on with hindsight, it um I it is it has taken on this life of its own in my in my adulthood.
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Um, I think at the time it was just like a I've always been comfortable with risk.
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Risk has been just a very common thing for me to explore, which I'm I'm really grateful for.
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I think it's the the one big reason I've also spent a lot of time in these early stage companies.
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But I think at that point it was just, I I am so appreciative that even at 27, I was like, what is happening in my life is not, it doesn't feel like it, I'm in the right place.
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It's not the right time.
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And so I I loved that even at that point um when by every measure I wasn't, I didn't have the money to do it, I didn't have, you know, I wasn't like set up for that experience.
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I was like, you know what, I'm I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go for it, knowing that like I would I would enjoy that opportunity to do that.
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So it it wasn't ever a like a lot of faith in myself.
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I I I had studied abroad in Australia and when I was 20.
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And so I I'd been comfortable with being as far away around the globe, um, and uh and having no one that I knew or or no one in my family.
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So that was awesome.
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And I think for me it was um, I'll never have another opportunity to do something like this again.
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It it it felt like in that moment I had to do it.
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And I I think now looking back too, the most interesting part is that so my husband and I had dated for seven years, and I remember telling him, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to Thailand and I'm gonna go to Indonesia, and I'm gonna go for like a month.
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And I I think I was like, should you want to come with me?
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And he was like, No way.
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He had a three-year-old daughter at that point.
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He's like, I can't take a month off of work.
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Like, are you insane?
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And and I remember him saying to me, we would never last a month apart.
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And I was like, Okay, so I guess this means that we're gonna be breaking up.
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So, like it was sort of a um a I was I was going to do it, come heller, high water.
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It was it was the plan for me.
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Um, and I think I even now being a parent myself, so my husband and I did get married many years later, but had like a couple of these instances where I'm like, well, I'm gonna do this thing, and I'm at that stage of my life where I can, I'm gonna do it.
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Um, and then we we at some point came back together and got married.
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But now having daughters of my own, looking back at that experience and saying, I had to be self-reliant, I had to, there was no one else in the world that even spoke the language I did.
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So um I want my girls to have that same kind of experience where um you have to be so comfortable in your own company to be able to occupy, you know, 24 hours in a day in a culture you don't know, in a language you don't speak, um, and and be able to navigate, like physically navigate into places and spaces that you're completely and totally new to and not comfortable with.
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Um, so it's it's something that I I now have taken into parenthood, which is I need my girls to be able to have this comfort with relying on themselves in in situations where there is no there's no uh safety net, there's no fallback plan.
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Like you're halfway around the world, you're all you've got right now.
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That's amazing.
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Did you go?
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Was it a month or was it longer?
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It was a month.
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Um I I spent um the first couple of weeks in uh Bangkok and then in northern um Thailand, there's a city called Chiang Mai.
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So remember we rode the the most rickety buses and the on the most rickety roads.
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Like I still to this day I don't know how I survived that because um I like there there were families of like four on a single moped, and and the dad would be the only one with a helmet on.
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And I'm like, how did we how did we make it out of there?
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Um and then flew or came back down to to Bangkok and then spent some time in this tiny little island called Kotao, where I, you know, did advanced scuba water or scuba diving training.
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I've I've not done it since, but it was a really great experience.
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Yeah, and then um and then I flew to Bali.
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This was right after the whole eat pray love thing.
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So I was like, well, I'm gonna go to Bali and hang in the artist community of Ubuntu.
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Um I volunteered in a dog shelter.
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Um and then a book.
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Yeah, it was really cool.
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And then um there was this woman, Ninga, I think was her name.
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And so the cool thing about Bali is that um you don't live in a house, you live in like a compound.
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It's not really cool for women because um like you are essentially married into your husband's family, and then you live in their compound.
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It is a walled-off community, so you see in their city blocks, it's just like walls surrounding these like little cabins.
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Um, whereas this woman, Ninga, I think she'd said uh it's not really working with her husband's family.
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So she bought one of these compounds and turned it into like a hotel community.
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So there were a bunch of like expats.
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Uh, there was a woman next to me, she was like a 70-year-old Canadian.
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Um, so she would come and spend many months during the year there.
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There were a couple of British guys, so she had become a business owner herself and had this community um because at some point she was like, What's what I've got going on isn't working for me.
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And I remember thinking back um at that time and and you know, sort of wondering what that experience meant for her.
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And that was, I think it was one of the names I'd considered for Sprout Wise was like some homage to Ninga, because I was like, wow, this is someone who upended their own journey, um, you know, the plan for themselves, and then uh struck out on her own path.
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And um, so much so that there were people who would stay there, continue like they would come back to this very specific um hotel or or compound, if you will, and um and stay at stay at her place over and over again.
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I love that.
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That's amazing.
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That's I love the the thinking of the daughters.
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Sarah and I each have two daughters, and so and you have two, yeah.
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I have two daughters, yes.
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Right?
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And I I think about that a lot.
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We look back at what we've done and what we didn't do, and one of the dumb things I never did was live by myself.
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Like, you know, I had roommates forever, and then just moved in with Noah, and I'm like, oh my gosh, girls.
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Like, you can just live by yourself for a year, two years, like stuff like that.
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Definitely travel by yourself.
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Those are those are great hindsight takeaways of just like this is this is powerful.
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You need to know that you can do this and be comfortable with your own comfort uh with your own company.
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It's so powerful.
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Absolutely.
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I'm curious.
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Was this like, did you have uh examples in your life?
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Family, friends, somebody that did this, and you thought, oh gosh, I want to do that?
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Or was this just kind of like an innate knowing that you were this is this is a comfort zone for you?
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Because when you say you were risk is something you were, I'm risk adverse.
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I laugh like I probably would have been a great insurance agent because I see all the risk and I'm afraid to take it.
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I wish I wasn't, but like yeah, it's it was what was your um influence, if you had any.
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Yeah, I I think um I I've always been someone who has sought out novelty.
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Um, and I now know in the line of work I do, like the project-based work of wanting to experience new things or learn new things.
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Like, I I do need that kind of stimulation, I guess.
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So there's that part of it.
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Um, but I I think a lot of this came from my mom.
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I I think innately she was just a she was before her time.
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Um, but I there's this story that I I think back at.
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I'm like, my gosh.
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So my parents moved around a lot.
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Like we were army brats without the military piece, like they never stayed in one place very long.
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And so I think my mom was just sort of this restless soul.
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And in the late 70s, um, at some point, uh, and I and I'm pretty sure it was my mom who decided they were gonna move out to Montana.
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Like we were from the Midwest, my parents met in Chicago, they lived around Chicago in a few different areas during that time, but they bought a house in Great Falls, Montana, sight unseen, and like moved their.
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I'm trying to think.
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So they had just my brother, my older sister was born out there, so this had been the late 70s, and so picked up their small family, moved out to Great Falls, had my sister.
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Now we have six kids, by the way.
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So, like, I know that it's in me somewhere because my mom always had that, you know, also same interest and experiencing new things.
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Um, I I just think I had the ability to explore that more because of when I grew up.
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But yeah, my mom was a restless soul in many, many ways.
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Yeah, and that's not that was definitely not normal in the in the in the late 70s that at all.
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We're um one of our great family friends is is similar to that, sort of a restless soul, like adventure guy, and he uh approached us a couple months ago and said, Hey, can you guys help me get this story out of my body?
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.679
Can we just you know spend some time interviewing?
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:17.360
And he was telling the same story.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:21.840
He has this little kid, he and his wife are they're like we'll say they're our godparents.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:28.559
They picked up and moved to Alaska in the in the late 70s, just no one there.
00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.240
There are 20 people there, and they're like, Yeah, let's go.
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:31.200
British Columbia.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.559
Oh, BC, right.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:33.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:39.679
Uh and but just that same restless spirit, and they're like, that's fascinating in the 70s where it was so difficult.
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.080
You literally knew nothing where you're going.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:46.159
Um, but even in the so this was when did you do your trip?
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:46.960
10 years ago?
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:47.919
You're so young.
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:48.960
2010.
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:50.159
2010, right?
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.879
So even that, like, internet was still, it's there, but it's it's still sort of young.
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.480
Cell phones, I don't, I mean, how did what did it work over there?
00:16:58.559 --> 00:16:59.840
Like, were you SIM cards?
00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:00.639
You know, all that stuff.
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.840
So, like I had a like a little USB plug-in.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:13.599
I forget the name of the company, but my mom at the time, it was funny because my mom is sort of my mom was sort of like, you know, a I I feel like I had a pretty feral childhood.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:23.200
Like there was little oversight, you know, it was very, you know, standard for like 80s, 90s, but um, but for whatever reason at this time she was so terrified for me to go.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.680
And she insisted I get this little plug-in phone so that I could call her and talk to her.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:28.000
Perfect.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.759
And I remember thinking, like, how curious.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:35.599
Like, I'm I'm almost 30 and my mom is a whole lot more attached and worried for me.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:43.680
Um, so yeah, it was it was interesting because um she always said, like, I worry more about you that when you're adults than I did when you were kids.
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:51.839
I'm like, well, obviously, because like I don't remember, I mean, I remember being like hours and hours of time where not a single soul in the world knew where I was.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.680
So it's that line, right?
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.279
It's that line of little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.680
Yeah, and uh, you know, we talk about this with my my wonderful mother-in-law.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:09.920
She, you know, Noah lived, my husband lived right outside of the city, and they would go into the city at like 11 p.m.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:11.039
on a Thursday.
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.599
And she's like, cool, or didn't even know.
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:18.799
And now my our favorite is she like Martha.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:20.960
You know, I love you when I'm telling this story.
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:28.640
Uh, she's watching my children, my 13-year-old who goes up for a run, and she's in the minivan following her through our own neighborhood.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.279
Literally, this is happening in Ellie's videotaping.
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.880
She's like, My grandma's stalking me.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:34.960
She's sending it on our family chat.
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:37.359
So you go, right?
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.440
So you go from whatever, God bless, fingers crossed, you make it home.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:49.359
Maybe wear a seatbelt, but it's fine if you don't, to I'm watching my 13-year-old run in her own neighborhood that has no cars that are spinning.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:49.599
Yeah.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:50.000
Yeah.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:58.799
My mom popped my twin sister and I in uh, because we live this at this point, we lived, um, I think we lived in southwest Michigan.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:05.039
So there's a train that like skirts right along the south shore of Chicago, and then you have to like hop on a connector train.
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.200
And my oldest sister lived in Aurora.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.240
So I was like, we must have been, I don't know, 13, 14 years old, my twin sister and I.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:18.559
And I'm like, and they popped us on trains and they were like, you gotta switch to the metro train when you get to Union Station.
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:24.400
And like I look back at that and think, you know, that would be, would I let my kids do that now?
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.200
I don't know.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:30.799
I mean, they've got watches that tell me, you know, their exact coordinates in the neighborhood.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:37.759
Um, and uh, and so yeah, the the interesting dichotomy of my mom's, you know, attachment.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:42.880
Uh, you know, I was like, that in and of itself is a therapy session or a story, I think.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:43.440
But yeah.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:44.079
Correct.
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:44.640
That's correct.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.039
You're here for mental health professionals, am I right?
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:48.880
Oh, yeah, obviously, yes.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.000
Yes, correct.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:50.880
It's amazing.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:51.599
That's great.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:52.799
That's super fun.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.759
Um, Sarah, do you want to ask the second one?
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:56.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.920
So um for anyone listening, lots of people are afraid to take risks.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.000
Lots of people are afraid to do a big leap, especially when it comes to their business.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:19.839
If you were to give one little bit of advice on how to start to kind of flex that muscle or get comfortable being uncomfortable with big leap type decisions, what would you recommend to somebody who's afraid to do it?
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:32.640
I I think I always think in those situations, because even even though I'm very comfortable with risk, like the dread of making a change like that is always the worst part.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:56.480
Um, and I've talked about this a bit when I started my business because again, it I think any of us when you're when you're faced with um the recognition that what you're doing, whether it's personally in a relationship, for instance, or professionally, when you know it's not working, and you know, in my mind, I will often internalize that and say, um, what could I be doing differently?
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.920
So I will it's very hard on myself in that way.
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.119
Um, and so it is this have you tried this?
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:05.759
Like this is your fault that you feel this way.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:13.680
And so though I'm very comfortable with risk, like the anxiety of making change is really where I hit a sticking point.
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:16.880
And I suspect to some degree most other people feel that same way.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:32.640
Um, and I'm very fortunate that um by some miracle, my husband, who is incredibly grounded, very, very risk averse, like you could not put us further apart on the paradigm of comfort with risk, and so we sort of meet the middle.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:39.519
So between him and my sister, my sister knowing you're going to be, you know, she was like such a hype squad at that point, you're gonna be great.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:41.759
Why wouldn't you think you could do this, Abby?
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:50.079
You're capable, like all of those things that you know, you've got people in your life that will tell you nice things, but I'm like, she is my person in that way.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.240
She's just such a good emotional structure, she's great emotional structure for me.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.759
And then my husband's sort of constant um like the the scaffolding around.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:13.680
Our life, like Kevin, has got that unlocked, and so between the two of them, it was both the addressing the anxiety of can I do this and can I take this sort of chance in myself, and then also the structure of we've got you.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:29.680
And so I think for anyone considering that that sort of support around you is crucial because I always think most people get stuck in that period of dread and the can I do it rather than you know the post once you've decided to make that change.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:31.359
I think that's been the easy part.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:35.759
It was the decade of time before that where I was like, I want to do this.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:39.759
I don't even know how to get started, or what is it that I need to do?
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:47.200
And uh the episode of your show actually that I was listening to and leading with authentiauthenticity was there's no rule book for these things.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:55.119
So who do I think I am that I can construct something, some sort of structure for myself when no one in my life is an entrepreneur?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.079
Um so are you the only one in your family?
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.400
Um I am, yeah, which shocks me.
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:06.319
Um but yeah, it's uh so conventional roles across my entire family.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.440
We were we were raised to go to college and get a good job.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.920
Like that was the um, like that was our marching orders as a family.
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:20.400
And as of December 12th, uh all six of us uh will have graduated with our bachelor's degree.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.680
My um my next oldest sister is finishing her degree in December.
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:24.880
I'm so we're so proud of her.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:26.079
That's awesome.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.319
Yeah, so um, so for us, like that was that was the path.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:42.960
So to take on this next phase, um, I'm shocked that two people in my life who don't have that experience, and you know, if I if I were really looking at it, how would they be able to validate me here or give me that nudge?
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:44.640
And yeah, there's such deep trust there.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:55.759
So um finding a really good community and solid support structure and making a decision, any decision, is I would say community is is the only reason I I do anything.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:24:02.160
Um, are the people around me that I've been careful to select and whose advice that I lean on to make those decisions.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:03.200
So I love that so much.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:03.839
Super fortunate.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:09.039
We tell there's a client that I have, her name is Annette Delancey, and she's amazing.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:20.880
And she wrote a book called What to Do When the People You Love Don't Love Your Business for that exact reason because she found it so hard and did not have the community or the support.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.599
And I love the way you said, you know, heaven scaffolds the world around you.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.599
So he made it like you can do this, girl.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.960
I'm I'm here, I got it.
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:29.920
We're we're good.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:31.359
Most people don't have that.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:36.079
And it's I remember talking to her on a podcast about this, and it was devastating.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.000
She's like, it was sabotaged.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.640
I was sabotaged by everyone at every turn.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:49.759
And it's if anyone who's read the four agreements now, you know, we if you read that, you know it's not really about you, it's their fear that they're pushing on you.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:55.200
But she's like, when all you hear is the no and the it's too scary, and why would you do this?
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.039
And you're always so risk-adverse, Abby.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:58.079
Why would you try this?
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:59.599
And we're like, I didn't have that.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:07.599
So I love so much that you've curated the people around you, and me and and lucky enough to have the sister to be able to do it.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.480
That's amazing.
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:25.039
Yeah, I I'll also uh kind of explore that a little bit more because I think um when I when I think back to that time where I was searching, like the Thailand trip was absolutely that part of my journey where it was just I I felt like I had such unfinished business of things that I wanted to do.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:25.279
Yeah.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.519
And I'm and I'm glad I took that time for myself.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:32.720
And I'm glad that, you know, Kevin, uh, I look back on it and I'm like, my gosh, what a leap of faith.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.599
And at that time he didn't know if we'd get back together.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:45.599
Um, but I think, you know, how evolved of that human being to think, you know, if I love something that much, if I let it go, might it come back to me?
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:51.200
Um, and I think too, uh, so um, what is it, the the five love languages?
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.480
Like I'm such a words of affirmation person.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:00.640
And so for so long I was hyper-reliant on the people in my life to tell me the nice things.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:02.960
And I even Kevin's probably laughing in his office right now.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:05.200
He's like, You still ask me to tell you nice things.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.119
Um you haven't outgrown that girl, just for the record.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:10.160
I never will.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:21.599
Um, but like the um the lack of trust in myself, even even though I was comfortable doing those things, but I was searching for something, like I didn't yet have it.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:26.799
Um, and so I'd rely on people to tell me those things because I because I just didn't know them yet.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:37.440
And so it didn't, so when I decided to start my business, it was probably the first like it was such an evolution of my adult life where I saw this huge shift after I had my kids.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.799
And I was like, my gosh, I didn't even know if I would be a good mom.
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:47.200
I didn't know, I thought, you know, like newborns would be such a, you know, an awful, you know, matchup for me.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.440
And I'm like, oh, I loved that part.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:52.160
Um, I love this identity I have.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.319
I have such, I take such great pride in the the relationship I've got with my girls.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:20.960
And um, and so to finally get to that stage of my professional life where I believed those things, it was such a shift to say, okay, I'm not relying on them to tell me whether I can or cannot do these things, but it's them sort of saying, We've got, we've got you, even though you may hit some roadblocks because you know, every entrepreneur will, you know, see the up, downs, and all arounds.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.359
But I I knew that they were there.
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:29.200
And so I think it was the it's not permission to can I or can I not do this?
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:38.799
It is I now know I can, but I know I've been so careful to cultivate these relationships in my life that they'll catch me when I fall because it's going to happen.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.920
I mean, it's happened probably seven times this week.
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.279
Um seven hundred times this year.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:28:01.759
So it's not a it's not that binary that they showed me that I could or couldn't do it, but it was more of a a gentle nudging of you know you can, we've always known you could, um, but it's got to be your decision whether you can take that sort of chance on yourself.
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:03.359
And I'm really grateful for it.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:16.000
You mentioned, you know, you got to the point where Sproutwise was ultimately born that this came out of, as things usually do, a really tumultuous, really devastating time for your family.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:24.079
You uh in 2023, your mom was very sick, and you went to take care, or she moved to you so you could take care of her.
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:25.920
Um, Sarah did this too.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.079
So Sarah, Sarah did the same thing.
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:41.680
Our dad was very sick, sick for uh probably 13 years, and we could just it was not getting better, and so Sarah said, Hey, mom, dad, move to Pennsylvania, be by me, we'll get you all, you know, you know, fixed up.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:48.880
We found this, my mom likes to call at the institution, but we found this great place that was a mile, and she was an inmate, they know all that.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.079
So my mom loved it.
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:53.200
And it wasn't for her, it's for dad, but we didn't love it.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:54.160
She didn't love it.
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:54.960
She didn't love it.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.000
It was supposed to be a winter respite.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:03.599
They were gonna come and heal and recover from some stuff over the mom was like, yeah, okay.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:05.680
Yeah, and you're putting me in prison.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.440
You're you're putting me in prison.
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:09.039
Yeah, but it was for dad.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:16.000
And so, so you know, that and it ultimately he ended up dying probably six weeks after they got there.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:16.720
Not either.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:17.599
Um three.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.079
Three, three, it was three weeks, that's it.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:20.559
Three weeks.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:21.680
Holy moly.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.680
Um anyway, so it's very similar.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:30.000
And after that, you know, as you do when a parent dies or someone close to you dies, you just sort of rethink everything.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.359
And Sarah, Jane, Sarah Jane Pottery was born after that.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:35.119
And so it's very similar.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.519
They are so similar to you too.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:38.400
Oh my gosh.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:43.359
I took I took that time and thought, gosh, like what am I doing?
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:49.920
I mean, I had been caretaking for a while, not permanently, but um I what what can I do?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:50.720
What should I do?
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:51.680
How can I do this?
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:57.440
And yeah, it does it, it makes you think about what your options are and what you really want out of this life.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:58.000
Yeah.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:08.799
So so with you, Abby, you got to a point you were working for this startup, and they were asking you to do some traveling, and you got to the point you said, I'm not, I don't want to do this.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.079
I can't, I this is not where my energy is.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:20.319
Tell us about, first of all, I want to hear about your mom because any woman who has as many children as she has has to be a full-on badass.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:21.599
Like, we're just gonna say that.
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.240
That's crazy.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:24.079
Now we know that she's a free spirit too.
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:26.079
Like free spirit and eight kids.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.599
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.200
So what is your mom?
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.519
And then, like, how did tell us the story of how you started the business?
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.559
Because I think that's it's you know, when you shared it, it was beautiful.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:38.799
So just yeah, take us, take us there.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.519
Yeah, I my mom, I mean, it's it's a it's an important call out.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:45.440
She she was a flawed human being.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.079
And I think I even said this right after she passed.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:55.039
It was like contending with that loss was very different than I so I lost my dad when I was 30.
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:10.319
Um, he was ill for a very long time, like, you know, every lifestyle disease under the sun, like diabetes and high blood pressure, and like, you know, had crippling osteoarthritis in both knees and could barely walk.
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:19.519
And so my experience with my dad was, you know, from my formative years, was um like lovely guy, but we always managed around him.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:28.000
And so, and I think the struggle my mom had is that um, you know, she wanted to be loved, and I think she had a really hard time in showing that.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:32.559
So it manifested in some really tricky ways, which made her hard to love sometimes.
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:38.000
So, and and I, you know, it now with years later, I can I can recognize that.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:47.599
I think, you know, any any strong personality, especially as a woman, like you're you're bound to have some of this with a with your mother, and and we certainly did.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.880
So, um, so flawed, but again, I I now can set like she was just ahead of her time.
00:31:53.039 --> 00:32:04.319
Had she been born, you know, 40, 50 years later, like we have enough similarities that I'm like, I would have loved to have seen what she would have done with herself professionally, because she just had such guts.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:20.240
Um and um so so yeah, complicated, flawed human being, um, but was a master at like traditions and uh was was someone who was the guardian of all the important you know things that we loved as a family.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:27.519
Like Christmas is I look back at my childhood, I'm like, oh, so special to have, you know, we had game nights on Christmas Eve.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.640
We had it was a you know uh an open door for all of my siblings' friends.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:38.559
Like the the level of chaos in my house was awesome because it was like everyone felt welcome there.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.799
And I think my mom was a big reason for that.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:46.400
And so when you know, she got a little bit older and um and she had COPD.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.519
And so emphysema is a real rough way to go.
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:55.680
And so just uh, you know, you're you're basically suffocating and losing your ability to breathe.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:57.920
And you know, did you see me just take a deep breath?
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:05.759
Like even just word, I'm like yeah, yeah, and watching it, I I can't imagine watching it too.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:21.200
Oh, it's it's you can't you just can't do anything, and like becoming more limited over over time, and you know, I think that she she got bitter and quite angry and would often say things like um like all I have is the past.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.799
And it was like, Well, I'm here.
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:30.000
And I remember thinking, like, especially after I'd moved her up to Detroit, in the middle of the pandemic, I put her in an institution.
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.920
She was very angry about it.
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:42.880
Um, and um, and we had to do some negotiating on the rent because she had a very small amount of money to work with, and so that became a point of contention.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.240
Um, so it was sort of like this, gosh, we're doing the best we can.
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:52.559
And I uh it's like caretaking is so heavy like that because it's like I know it's not about that, but that is a factor.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:59.759
I can't, you know, give, I can't pour from an empty cup, mom, and you're asking me to do these things, and I'm I'm doing the best I can.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.519
And so there were three of us, three of my siblings that happened to live here locally, and so you know, we really just like divided and conquered and and tried our best to support her again, even when she was she made it very hard sometimes.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:24.960
Um and so at the end, so I I'd accepted this job, and it was um it was a an Australian-based technology company, and it was gonna be a global role heading up the entirety of their people team.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:32.079
So it was a really cool opportunity, and I hadn't been back to Australia since since I studied abroad there in 2000 or 2003.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.599
I remember when I was accepting the offer, I was like, here's what's up.
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:44.559
I'm like, uh my mom has COPD, um, I do quite a bit of caretaking, and oh, on top of this, she had just been diagnosed with breast cancer.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.880
I'm gonna have to start taking her to these appointments.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:49.280
So I was asking for some grace there, and they were.
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.199
They they were not unkind about it.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:35:00.960
Um, but it was just this, you know, ever increasing level of pressure that I was feeling um that I couldn't be there for everyone at max capacity.
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:05.920
Because, oh, by the way, my husband's father lived with us at that time, and he was going through cancer treatment too.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:06.159
Yeah.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.159
Oh yeah, my goodness.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:16.239
So we lived with us for like six and a half years, and so at the end, because she was put into hospice in May of that year, so we ended up losing her in September.
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:25.360
And I remember that week, my the company I was working for, um, my my boss, the CEO, like was going to be in the US for like a period of a month.
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.599
And I was like, I have this thing.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.760
My family's in town, my mom's now been put in hospice care, it's a whole thing.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.920
And I'd given him some dates, I was available.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:40.800
And I remember he'd, you know, given me a call finally the week before he was leaving and said, Can you come to Dallas tomorrow?
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.920
And I'm like, No, I can't, I can't.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:45.920
Uh my my family's still in town.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:49.360
And he's like, you know, we went back and forth, and I could tell he was irritated about it.
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.199
And he was like, Well, what about next Wednesday?
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:55.519
And I'm like, okay, okay, like let me talk with my husband and see what we can do.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.960
It was undefined whether it was going to be in like Raleigh or Atlanta, I remember.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.320
And so I booked the ticket for Raleigh, fast forward to that Tuesday night.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.280
And he's like, Well, I don't know if that meeting is confirmed for tomorrow.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.039
And I'm like, how thoughtless of you.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:14.800
And I'm just, I didn't tell him this, but I'm like, you know, I've got this just ticking time bomb in my life that will absolutely upend everything.
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:22.000
I so I canceled the flight, and then like later that night at like nine to ten, he was calling me, and I'm like, Do you understand the level of chaos you bring to my life?
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.159
I said this to my boss, and I'm like, Good for you.
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:25.039
Like, what the hell?
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:30.239
And it was him saying, But I'm running this company, and you need to understand like how hard that is.
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.800
Okay, so I ended up booking a flight to go see him at like Atlanta the next day or whatever.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.679
And my husband didn't even know I'd booked the flight because he was asleep.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:38.800
Like it was that late at night.
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.800
I had to fly out at like four or five in the morning.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.199
And I just remember thinking in that moment, like, what am I doing?
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.199
The fate of my career is in the hands of someone else and has been for a very long time.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:52.239
And I remember feeling this push and pull of why am I who what's who's this in service of?
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.159
Um, this is not for me.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.559
And on top of it, it was it always felt like the value of people work.
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:16.719
If you're lucky enough to work for a leader that understands why looking out for the people on your team pays, you know, dividends, like quite literally, like there's output and we can derive some some hard dollar figures to engagement of your team and what that means for the performance of your business.
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:25.519
Or there are companies like this one where sure we had an amazing interview and we were on the same page and we talked about all of the things that we could do to build for this team.
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:31.360
But when push came to shove, like all of these initiatives that I led were deprioritized.
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.400
Um, there was no investment that the company could make.
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:40.639
And so it was a how am I to deliver on these things when you know the company doesn't seem to value those?
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:49.599
So it was these two things, like this existential, you know, life or death situation in my personal life, and then also I amplify work, I don't create it.
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:50.719
And that's that's hard.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:51.840
That's hard to contend with.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:57.599
When I'm like, if I have a great leader, it's amazing, but when I don't, it is I cannot, I can't deal.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:02.320
And it would be just a I would claw out of my skin to leave these companies at some point.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.840
Like I, it was a you know, zero to sixty game.
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.679
I'd start at 60 miles an hour, and then at some point when I was at zero, I was done.
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.719
I couldn't I couldn't fake it.
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:28.239
So in this case, yeah, yep, and so um, and so in this case, I you know at some point negotiated an exit, and um, and that became the runway to start SproutWise because I'm like I can't keep relying on a good leader to help lead me so that my work feels meaningful.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.000
And so SproutWise was born.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:35.840
That line, I can amplify work, not or I'm I'm amplifying the work, not creating it.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:42.159
That line is like that just cut real deep.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:50.480
Like, I I have never heard it said that way, and I will now take it and give you homage of it, because that is just that's exactly right.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:54.639
Like every time I've ever felt itchy, that's exactly what it was.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:39:00.639
And I'm done amplifying other people's work, and I'm like, I know what I can create, you know what you can create.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:05.519
Sarah obviously is knows what she can create, and it is that's such a powerful line.
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:07.039
Amplify versus create.
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:07.760
Where are you?
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:09.599
Yeah, that was kill, that's killer.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:13.679
Yeah, and when you know that and you see it, and you're like, oh, it's done.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:14.320
Done.
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.440
Yeah, I don't want to.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:17.360
Yeah.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:24.880
And so I even now I I love I love the work I get to do, and I've I've never had that.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:32.719
I've never I've never um thought about work so much and wanted to do it so much that I'll pick up my laptop at like 7 or 8 p.m.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:35.840
and think, you know, how can I solve through this thing that we've got to solve for?
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:36.159
Yeah.
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:43.360
I mean, I was always as restless as I described my mom to be, and I always felt like, how can I do it this job for the next 45 years?
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:44.239
How do people do this?
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:48.639
I I don't love it, and in fact, I hate it so much that I can't fake it.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:54.320
You know, so it was just this searching for like I liked the work itself, I liked the idea of the work.
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:54.719
Yep.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:01.039
But in in the organizations where I'd worked, I'd hit this point inevitably where I'm like, I hate this so goddamn much.
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:01.280
Yeah.
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:09.119
And like, and luckily for the scaffolding that Kevin brings to my life, you know, when I'd reach that point sometimes, he'd be like, it's okay, like don't stay.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.920
And so there were times where I did quit my job, and then it was like, okay, now I've got to find something else.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:17.360
But it was always this rinse and repeat cycle of I hate it.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:17.840
And I can't.
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:18.719
What was it?
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:19.840
Was it like three years?
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:20.639
What was there?
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:22.800
Do you get itchy after a time?
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.599
Or was it a was it truly like the the work brought you down to zero?
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:33.519
Like you did what you're supposed to do, and you also said like they deprioritized, they took back the investment they said they were gonna make.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:35.360
So all these broken promises.
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:42.880
I worked for a company for a long time, and she would consider all of this stuff fluff, and it was all leadership and culture and all the stuff.
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:44.239
You're like, that's not fluff.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:45.920
That's why people stay here for 10 years.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:46.559
Like, what?
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:48.320
Yeah, what's like no?
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:49.519
We don't need to do that anymore.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:50.000
They're fine.
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.840
I wish I could say it was three years.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.920
It was like a good year and a half.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:58.639
Like the year and a half to two year mark was when I had hit that I don't want to do this anymore.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:18.159
And it was either I was bored, um, I was ready for new challenges, and maybe you know, that that that particular company couldn't meet me in that in that desire for more, or or there were times where I'm like, I cannot stand this a second more working for this person because what they want and what I want out of this are so different.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:19.440
I can't, I can't do it.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:20.800
I won't let myself do it.
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.480
And so I'd I'd bail.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:23.360
That's amazing.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.119
So the way that you connected all the dots is what I think is so exciting.
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:31.679
And I, you know, we last week interviewed a gal named Kathleen, and she did the same thing.
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:43.519
She was in recruiting for a long time, and she was a writer, and she put these things together, and she created this, and every single thing led to where she is now, which is this beautiful interior designer.
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:56.320
And she's amazing and runs this company and has these beautiful, like the way that she talks about her team and all the things like she is the boss that you were just describing, and she's like, I wanted to create this for me.
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:57.920
I wanted to create this for them.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:05.199
So I love that you know, all these things that we get to look back when we're measuring backward, and you say, Yeah, that's exactly why all of that had to happen.
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:06.880
Because now I get to do this thing.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.360
Well, and you you also said this is like I was only there for a year and a half.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:21.679
But this but I I I think there's this beauty in as we get older and have more experiences under our belt and really truly understand what does drive us, what where are our passions?
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:22.800
What do we love to do?
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:26.159
What keeps us on fire versus what doesn't.
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:31.360
The speed in which we make those decisions gets faster and faster and faster.
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:32.880
So why waste another nine months?
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:34.320
Why waste another two days?
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.679
I can't even do one more hour on this phone call listening to these people.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:38.239
I'm done.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:39.519
I'm just done, dun, done.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:44.800
So I think there's some beauty in you only did it for a year and a half and thought, God, this isn't it.
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:45.519
This isn't it.
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:46.800
It's not it.
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:48.400
But I mean, think about it too.
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:53.360
The again, the environment that I grew up in was get an education and get a great job.
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:53.679
Yeah.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:58.400
And so my family looked at that and thought, like, why can't you stick with a job?
00:42:58.719 --> 00:42:58.800
Sure.
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:00.079
And so the great job.
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:04.480
Yeah, like the shame I carried around, like, why can't I?
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:12.159
Um, why like my sister stayed with this organization that I had actually worked for for three years after college for 15 years.
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:21.280
And I just remember thinking, and I wish she was here to tell this story, but um, at the end of it, like she had been laid off, and it was a really, really hard company to work for.
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:24.559
And so she was laid off from this role, brought back into that.
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:36.800
It was an umbrella organization, and um, Mandy has psoriasis, and so she had this like her body basically broke out in psoriasis, and it was like covering her scalp.
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:37.760
It was a flare-up.
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:45.039
And so when she went to her dermatologist, like her dermatologist explained to her, he's like, This is a stress response.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:46.719
He's like, You have to leave your job.
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:47.519
She was telling me this.
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:52.000
And I'm like, Wow, if your dermatologist is telling you you gotta get going, like that is thing.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:59.760
And so, you know, at some point she uh had applied to Google, went through this insanely exhaustive, you know, four month long recovery.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.800
Creating process and was hired there where she's now been for the past like four or five years.
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:12.000
But it it is such a the case of you were you were always better than what you thought you were.
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:24.239
Um, and you are so highly capable and you know, incredible benefits, and she's exploring having a child and wouldn't have been able to do this, you know, with the compensation or benefits she was offered at that company for 15 years.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:31.760
So this is an instance where she lost all of that time, that opportunity wouldn't have presented itself until she'd made this shift in her career.
00:44:31.920 --> 00:45:02.719
So when we think about um the cost of staying at organizations like this, um, and I'm not going to say that that is the reason why a man didn't decide to have um a child, but think of like when you don't have what's fulfilling for you in your career in your life, and you deprioritize the things that you know are um are exciting and uh and and and make you you, the things that you choose not to have in your life because you are not taking a chance.
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:07.599
So when I look at risk, it's I am running towards something instead of running away from it.
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:10.960
Like that is now how I look at it um at this point.
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:18.559
And I love that I can look at Mandy now and think you are in the driver's seat of your career, you're in the driver's seat of your life.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:22.239
Um, and it has been a freeing opportunity for you financially.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.760
Like Mandy is uh the best I've ever seen here.
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.320
And I'm like, and it was your body telling you that.
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:29.760
Like it wasn't anyone else.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:36.159
It you the the tipping point was like your body was actively rebelling against the situation you needed to get out of.
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.320
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:40.480
Wow, it's that's huge.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:45.119
I I was like, as you were talking about that, I was thinking of the hierarchy of needs, right?
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:57.920
And when you're in that environment where your body is screaming and you're breaking down and all these things, like not only can you not think about other other things like legacy and the future, you're literally she's just on survival mode.
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:05.280
She's at that the very bottom of that, just like I gotta stay alive, I gotta figure out how I can take my next breath and how I can wake up tomorrow.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.679
Like, that's there's no space for anything else, let alone.
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:09.599
I wonder if I'd be a good mom.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:10.800
Yeah, right.
00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:13.119
And she's an incre she would be an incredible mom.
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.039
She's an incredible aunt, she's an incredible person.
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:15.679
Like, yeah.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.280
So I hated seeing I hated seeing her in that moment.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:25.679
And that's, you know, part of the reason I do what I do now is I I think, you know, I look at HR.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.639
So the company I run is um an HR consultancy.
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:35.840
And like I couldn't understand for the longest time why someone would look at HR and think our only duty is to protect an organization.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:47.440
And that is one bucket, like that is one side of it, which is we are going to safeguard against all of the worst inclinations of your organization, your leaders, the people on it, and where it meets places where we can get in trouble.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:49.440
So, like, you know, keep you out of the courts.
00:46:49.599 --> 00:47:07.360
But the other part of this that I really thought more and more about, and what became this bigger fixture in my mind was but how can we incentivize the things that people are either good at or the outcomes we want by creating structure that helps people to move toward that, that helps the organization to encourage those things.
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:10.719
And so that's where it became a is that what we can do?
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:20.320
So if we can institute this level of structure for companies that are early in their journeys or still quite small, who think that this is fluffless, which is ridiculous.
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:26.800
They think culture is just a, you know, having a foosball table in your break room or having like snacks.
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:47.679
Um but if we can institute those things early, then it becomes a way to encourage and create this environment where people think I can explore what I'm good at and and also what creates value for my company, because my company is invested in this at the very start when we're all doing 17 jobs simultaneously, and it feels like a lot.
00:47:47.840 --> 00:48:04.079
Um, most everyone I know that has founded a company set out to found something that either was the organization they wanted to work for, the particular problem they wanted to solve for, or um was uh like the best version of any company they've worked for prior.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:08.480
So it is like the idealism you have to have in creating something.
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:18.960
Um, so when we talk about that willingness, it has to be what is the vision you had for this organization, not the problem you're trying to solve, but how do you want this to feel for you?
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:24.320
Um, and then it comes down to like what values will you absolutely not negotiate on?
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:35.920
And so it becomes like, you know, for us, and I'll use Sproutwise as an example here, like it's uh uh decision inclusivity is something like it's a it's a group think opportunity with our team.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:39.199
And so decisions are are not made unilaterally.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:41.360
Uh, we've got to have some level of consensus.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:47.440
Boundaries are brave, um, and and the power of no, because that's something you know, I really struggle with.
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:53.280
So it's identifying what are the things that if shit goes sideways, we will never compromise on.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:49:03.760
And so it is bringing it down to a level of recognizing, yes, you need a handbook, and you've got to protect your organization against scary things that might happen.
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:20.079
But when your uh leaders in the room or or your team are forced to make decisions when it's easy to take a shortcut or an easy way out, or make a decision that might prove to be a poor make for a poor outcome, what will you never sacrifice?
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:30.880
And so the structure really becomes that, which is you set out to find something, and how do we make sure that you're not sacrificing that intention when it gets complicated when you scale?
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:39.280
So does that really like the crux of the inflection point of where complexity um compromises decision making?
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:47.360
I love that you know, imagine what you're doing is creating it so it's a living, breathing piece of part of everything that they're putting together.
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:57.280
So when they hire employee a thousand and one, they're getting the same experience with using the non-negotiables, here are what we value, and these are not just words.
00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.360
This is a decision-making matrix.
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.840
When in doubt, these are the things you ask yourself.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.920
This is not just you know, words on the wall.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:05.599
I that work I love so much.
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.000
I learned these lessons the hard way too.
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:23.039
And so I think that vulnerability of saying, you know, now working in this way, hey founder, like I am you too, and um, I am not here because I do things perfectly, but what we're trying to do is help you address those things, you know.
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:28.800
What is it, what is it, what skills do you need, what process do you need, and what are you doing this in service of?
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:31.199
What is the ideal outcome we're hoping to achieve?
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:36.800
But it's a living and breathing, highly nuanced level of work, and it's hard.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:38.159
Like, and that's okay.
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:39.199
It is hard.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:46.960
Um none of the revenue stuff matters if the business is falling apart.
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:58.480
None of this, you know, the most amazing elaborate sales process or CRM in the universe can overcome a team that ends up in there every single second.
00:50:59.039 --> 00:50:59.760
Like nothing.
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:06.239
Like all of that, that hard work is where we get to say, this is what this is your calling card, right?
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:12.079
That we've done this hard work together, that you I love so many of the words you said, like we're in partnership, like we're doing this together.
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:17.039
I have done this before, you may not have, but this is this is hard, amazing work.
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:18.880
Okay, we're already at time.
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:19.920
I know, I know.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:20.719
I just looked at it.
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:22.639
I was like, this hour went really fast.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:23.920
We're a little fast.
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:30.239
So so now that people know how amazing you are at what you do, how do they find you?
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:32.480
Abby at sproutwise.com.
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:39.360
I like I I tend to kick around on LinkedIn quite a bit and and share pretty freely the vulnerability I feel.
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:42.559
Um, so LinkedIn DMs are always a great way to reach me.
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.559
Email also a great way to reach me.
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:46.639
But um I'm in Detroit, Michigan.
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:48.320
Your your website is great.
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.280
I was your you your blogs are great on there.
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:56.239
I was reading one um about your experience of starting Sproutwise again this morning.
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:56.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.239
This was thank you so much for being here.
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:01.280
Thank you for sharing.
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:01.920
This was fun.
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:02.719
This was a good one.
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:03.519
Yeah, this is awesome.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:04.960
I haven't had a bad one yet.
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:05.920
We haven't had a bad guest yet.
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:06.480
So I shouldn't.
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:07.599
We actually have not.
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:10.719
Well maybe if it was just the two of us, we've had a bad one.
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:12.000
But are you people?
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:13.840
And Abby, we need Mandy.
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:17.519
We need to have bring Mandy on and have a sister while I think we do a sister.
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:18.960
I would love to do that.
00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:20.320
Um, and she would too.
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.400
I'd love, I would love to have Mandy on here.
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.719
If not, we're gonna do like we're gonna do like sisters, sisters trivia.
00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:28.880
We're gonna do a little sister, right?
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:30.159
Like a fun sister sister.
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:32.079
Wait, are you identical or fraternal?
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:32.960
Fraternal.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.679
Well, everybody, thank you so much for listening.
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:38.239
Thank you for uh being here.
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.559
Thank you, Abby, for sharing everything.
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:42.400
Thank you, Sarah, for being here.
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:50.320
Please, uh listeners, like and review and rate us and follow and share and all of the things, however, you're listening to us.
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:54.559
And again, thank you for all the things that you're doing for your business.
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:58.800
And remember, your business really matters, and it really, really matters to us.
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:00.239
So thank you, everybody.
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.400
Have a great day, and we'll see you next time.
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:03.280
Let's go.