WEBVTT
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you're going to be able to preach the gospel
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to every group of people on the planet. Well,
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now we see it's very possible and we can do it
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in a very short period of time because of social
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media, the internet. So the words of Christ are
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being fulfilled even now. Hey everybody, welcome
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back to the Blue Vineyard Podcast. My name's
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Luke and I'm here with Adam. Hi Adam, how's things?
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Hey, Luke. It's great to see your lovely face
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once again. Thank you kindly. Thank you kindly.
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Adam, last time we were together, we were talking
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about Christianity in the age of AI and you had
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a sermon coming up and we both said that we were
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going to go our separate ways and we were going
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to interview some people, get some context around
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it. How was your experience? I did, I had a sermon
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and I am so thankful, the word that jumps in
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my head. I'm thankful that we started this series
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because I've had a chance to interview some incredible
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people along the way, which has helped with my
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thinking and my processing on this. I also went
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to a conference, maybe some might know it called
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ASI. And during that conference, I had so many
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conversations about AI and Christianity and how
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people are thinking about it, they're scared
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of it, they're excited for it. Before we jump
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into some of these interviews, because we're
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going to get to those, I would love to hear kind
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of your hypothesis. What are some of the things
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that you're thinking about specifically on our
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title today, our title, which is, How do we prepare
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the church for AI's future? How are you thinking
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about that? Well, in the conversations that I
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had, everything in my mind distills down to a
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single point, and that is education. Whenever
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you're dealing with humans and it's a new technology,
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education is always going to be foundational
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because the people that understand the technology
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and can use it well, they're going to have better
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outcomes. But not only that, they're also going
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to be less likely to succumb to the pitfalls.
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And so with anything new, I feel like this is
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where I come back to. It's a point of education.
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So what about you? Education is so, so important.
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Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. The thing
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for me to add to that is that I think that as
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a faith community, as Christians, as Adventists
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specifically here, we don't want to leave the
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development of AI up to the secular world. We
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have very smart people in our faith community
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and we can engage in this and just like You know,
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for so many, one of the ways I think about it
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is that AI is neither good nor bad. It's just
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a tool. It's the people that use it that craft
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it into the thing that is going to be good or
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bad. So as a faith community, let's engage. We
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can help craft AI's future to one that, in my
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mind, helps reflect Jesus to those that we come
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in contact with, because that is my prayer. So
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yeah, that's kind of how I've been thinking of
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it. Now that's excellent. So just to get us started,
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I know we've had a number of people that were
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going to share their thoughts in this episode.
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Where are we starting? Oh, Pastor Wes Vi. Wes
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Vi has one of the specific I don't know if he
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would call it an honor, but I called it an honor
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talking to him. The very first podcast I was
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ever on was Westphi. We were up in Coeur d 'Alene,
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Idaho, and he's a pastor in Texas. So yeah, let's
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listen to a little bit of my conversation with
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Pastor Westphi on how do we prepare the church
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for AI's future. That is a big one, because I
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don't think we know what AI's future is. And
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that's probably the biggest challenge that we're
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facing, is that we don't really know what this
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is going to become yet. All we know is that it's
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going to change the world. It's already significantly
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impacted the world. But we don't really know
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what it's going to look like in three years.
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And most of the leading voices in this are saying,
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in the next three years, radical shifts are going
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to happen. And so it's going to continue to grow.
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I think the biggest thing that we can do as a
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church to prepare for whatever is going to come,
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I think, is to lay the foundation for people
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to be able to process the new world that's going
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to be unfolding. As I talk to church leaders
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and do trainings here in the conference around
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AI and communications technology, people are
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genuinely concerned about AI. They're concerned
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about what it's going to do, that it's going
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to replace the Holy Spirit. There's some big
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concern, and I don't mean to... kind of say that
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with that tone of my voice, like these are legitimate
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concerns that people have. And so we have to
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help people think through. And when I talk with
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people through that and help them process what
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exactly AI is and reframe it from this mythological
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robot in the ether to a tool, not unlike a keyboard
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or a mouse, they're able to then process that
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a little differently and alleviate some of that.
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So I think framing it up, informing the people,
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and not making it evil. I think that's the best
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thing that we can do because as it unfolds, we
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need to have the channels in place, the relationships
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in place, and the foundation set to be able to
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have meaningful conversations with what is it
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becoming and how is that actually impacting us
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because right now we don't really know. We can
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deal with what we have today, which is just basic
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large language models, but it's going to be so
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much more than that. One of the things I took
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away from that is really kind of an echoing of
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what you were starting out with is this education
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is like he's talking to people that aren't really
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understanding what AI is and truly what the,
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you know, the big monster, you know, scary thing,
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scary thing in the sky is like, Hey, let's, let's
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understand what we're actually talking about
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when we talk about AI. Yeah, I also appreciated
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at the end where he pointed out that right now
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what we have a large language models and that
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that's a cool technology. But this is going somewhere
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that is different. And that that we don't know
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what that is. And I think I appreciated the fact
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that he was not saying this is a universal truth.
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And it's great. And it's this and it's that it's
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that well, we know what it is right now. And
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We know that it's changing and we know that there
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are new technologies that are coming. We don't
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know what they look like yet, and we don't know
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how we're going to respond to those. But as you
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say, education is is a key feature. Yeah, no,
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like you said, it's a this is what AI is today.
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I was my wife was doing some continuing education
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classes. She's a speech language therapist and
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she they were doing it on AI and how they started
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with it. Their their talk was essentially this
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is what we know of AI as of today. and tomorrow
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this talk will be outdated. And actually, I think
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their talk was already outdated by the time I
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saw it, because I listened in a little bit. But
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yeah, things are rapidly rapidly changing. So
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what is AI? Well, I can tell you what it is at
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this moment, but I don't know where it's going.
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Yeah. And I think there's another point when
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I was having a conversation with Pastor Russ
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Wilcox, he is a He's in the technology space,
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but he's on the human side of the technology
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space, if you like. And so, Pastor Russ had an
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interesting take on this. It was shorter, but
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I think it fills in some of the gaps from the
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conversation that we've just been hearing from
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Pastor Wes. So maybe let's listen to that grab
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from Pastor Russ. Look, I think AR has already
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changed the way we do ministry. from the very
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ground level where people are using on their
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own personal machines right through to the systems
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that are created for the church. I think it definitely
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has already changed how we do ministry. I don't
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think it should change why we do ministry. And
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there's certainly lots of bits of ministry that
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it can help with, but there's a whole lot of
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ministry that AI doesn't do and shouldn't do.
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Yeah. I found this interesting because there's
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the delineation that he makes between the how
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and the why, right? It becomes a tool like Wes
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was saying, like a keyboard, right? It's a tool
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for a purpose. But, you know, as long as we keep
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it in its right place, it is helpful. And I think
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one of the things that will come out in our future
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conversations that we have from Ross's perspective,
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a continuing theme in his input was one of governance.
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And how do we how do we protect ourselves from,
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not in like the sky is falling kind of way, but
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how do we have good practices and how do we,
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you know, make it a good experience rather than
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allowing it to become something that we, that's
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not helpful to the church. Right. And not that
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it should change why we do ministry. Um, I think
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that was, you know, like it's, we're not abdicating
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Ministry, the verb, to do ministry, we're not
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advocating that to AI, or I think that would
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be the objective that I would encourage, like
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this isn't like, all right, hey AI robot, you
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go do ministry for me, because I've got TikTok
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to scroll, or something like that. you know,
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it's that's I think an important part of it too,
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is that we are still engaged in the why. So as
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we sort of come forward, I don't know if there's
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anything specific in in either of those that
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you want to want to come back to, Adam, but I
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know that educating people is a broad topic.
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And in a number of the conversations that we
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had, there was input around that. I know we have
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another clip that sort of delves into this a
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little bit further and thinks of where do we
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start with this? Did you want to preface that?
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I think that was a conversation you had. Yeah,
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so what's fun, this is Pastor Jean Ross. Pastor
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Ross, he is at Amazing Facts. And one thing that's
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super interesting about this conversation to
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me is that, you well may know, but maybe our
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audience doesn't, is that Blue Vineyard is working
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with Amazing Facts on a really, really cool.
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implementation of AI. And we can definitely get
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into the weeds on what that is and what it isn't.
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It's called Ezra. I encourage people to check
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that out. And we're really proud of what we're
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building with them. Amazing Facts has historically
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been on the forefront of using... you know, tools
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that are technological, whether, you know, what
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the advent of radio, of TV, of the internet,
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and they're using those to spread the gospel
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and they see AI as no different. But yeah, why
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don't I actually let Pastor John talk about that,
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because he says it so well. Well, that's a good
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question. I don't know if it's so much us preparing
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the church for AI, because I think AI is here.
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The question is, how do we as a church and how
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do we as ministries and individuals relate to
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AI? Now, I think of AI as a resource, just like
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we have the printed page was a resource in using
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that tool to share the gospel and then the introduction
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of radio and television, the Internet. So I think
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we're always wanting to look at new opportunities
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to connect with people. to share the gospel i
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see ai as a resource that can be used to help
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guide people into a clear understanding of bible
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truth and we'll probably get into some of the
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advantages of ai some of the Concerns things
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you need to be aware of when we get into ai But
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I think for us as a church we need to be looking
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at every new technology and new opportunity And
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say how can we use this for the furtherance of
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the gospel? You know one of the greatest signs
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that jesus gave about Where we are in the stream
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of time and how close we are to the second coming
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Jesus said this gospel of the kingdom shall be
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preached as a witness to all the world And then
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the end will come what people might have wondered
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a hundred years ago How are you gonna be able
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to preach the gospel to every group of people
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on the planet? Well now we see it's very possible
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and we can do it in a very short period of time
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because of social media, the internet, we've
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got various forms of broadcast and publishing
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and easy translation into multiple languages.
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So the words of Christ are being fulfilled even
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now. So we want to look at every opportunity
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to help further that work. Yeah, I love that
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too, to all the world. And if we feel that that
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is important, which I think we should, yeah,
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we shouldn't hold back. Not doing so with guardrails
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and doing so intelligently and again, not abdicating
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the why to AI, but yeah, that's amazing facts
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is very clearly seeing that as like, we're told
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to do something, we're gonna go do it. Yeah,
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again, treating it very much like a toolbox.
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This is a tool that we can use to accomplish
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a goal. And as believers, the Great Commission
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is something, like what you said, we should take
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seriously. I noticed that out of all of the respondents,
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Pastor John was very much in advocacy of the
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evangelistic perspective. This really isn't a
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question i'm a yes there are questions around
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i and how it operates in churches and all of
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that's true but if you strip it back and it becomes
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a question of how do we you know how do we use
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this for the furthering of the gospel it becomes
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a very simple. Like a very simple discussion
00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.039
at that point right it's like it's it's a utility
00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:12.100
that we're trying to use and i think what he
00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:17.899
was also what he was also pointing out in the.
00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.000
The way that the church has historically used
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.340
technology all of those technologies when they
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.740
first arrived Had people that were speaking against
00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:30.559
them, you know radio is bad TV is bad And I think
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.799
as we've gone through time we can now look back
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.240
and we can say well None of them and this is
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:36.720
sort of harkening back to a point that you made
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.519
Adam None of them are individually morally bankrupt.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.840
It's a case of how are they being used? You know,
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.480
you can, you can use a TV to do a lot of things.
00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.940
You know, I can, you know, I use mine to, to
00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:51.740
watch a sermon on Sabbath morning. And that was,
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.039
that was a great usage of the TV, but there's
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.279
plenty of stuff that is available on the TV that
00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.419
I would not consider a good usage. And so I think
00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:03.240
AI is whilst being dramatically more useful than
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.000
any of the other platforms we've talked about
00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.820
already. I think that's where it's different,
00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:11.159
but in that's in, uh, the how it's used, not
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.299
in the nature of the product, if that makes sense.
00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:17.200
Yeah. And so much of what's happening in the
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.639
world is that there really isn't anything new,
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.320
but it echoes in a different way. I mean, like
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:27.259
you said, the radio, TV, record players, whatever
00:15:27.259 --> 00:15:30.159
it is. Yeah. Yeah. Printing press. I mean, there's
00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.840
all kinds of wonderful things printed on a printing
00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:36.549
press and other things not so wonderful. but
00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.350
it's the people that are saying, what are we
00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:42.029
gonna do with this tool? And that's why we have
00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:46.830
a requirement to engage. And then also back to
00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:50.490
this topic of educating. This is neither good
00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:54.090
nor bad. I think we'll probably, people who are
00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:58.450
technologists in this field will need to keep
00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:01.070
educating and banging on this drum repeatedly
00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:04.690
of it's neither good. It's not bad, but it's
00:16:04.690 --> 00:16:06.830
what we do with it that matters, and then our
00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:09.230
job to educate. Well, now what are we going to
00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:11.710
go do? You had a good conversation, I believe,
00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:13.889
with Craig Young. I'd love to hear more about
00:16:13.889 --> 00:16:17.190
how that went. Actually, I'd love to take credit
00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:19.830
for this, but our producer, Khan, was the one
00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:23.590
that spoke to Craig, but he has provided that
00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:25.970
recording for us. So Khan, if you can cue that
00:16:25.970 --> 00:16:28.269
up, we would love to hear from Craig. Thank you,
00:16:28.289 --> 00:16:34.169
Khan. It starts with education. educating the
00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:39.950
members at large what AI is, how AI is being
00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:43.110
used already in our everyday life, how it benefits
00:16:43.110 --> 00:16:48.509
us as human beings, the pros and cons of it and
00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:52.990
you know I always go from the angle that water
00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:58.200
and a knife is essential to life but it can also
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.519
be dangerous so we can be drowned from water
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.339
we can you know be killed you know in the uk
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:10.940
we have a lot of knife crime but we grew up you
00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.539
and i grew up in a house where knife and water
00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.599
is you know freely available so what did our
00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:21.559
parents do to make sure that we were safe and
00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:25.319
kept safe from taking a knife and using it wrongly
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.980
or from joining in the bad. And that's the way
00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:32.099
we need to look at how we educate our members
00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.380
in our churches about the use of technology,
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.339
the use of AI. The good, the bad, but focusing
00:17:39.339 --> 00:17:42.339
on the positive side. Yes, there always have
00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:45.680
to be a negative side of anything, but if you
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.660
focus on the positive, educate ourselves and
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:52.420
not be afraid. to try because, you know, we have
00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:55.559
done. We are already using it. It's in our everyday
00:17:55.559 --> 00:18:00.480
life. And once we understand that and once members
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.579
understand that, you know, it is easier to then
00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.789
start making steps to change. the way we use
00:18:06.789 --> 00:18:09.109
it. You can use it to write letters, to make
00:18:09.109 --> 00:18:13.390
devotionals, to help planning or special needs,
00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:15.630
to differentiate the sabbath school lessons,
00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:18.890
to differentiate work, just to make things simpler
00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:21.970
for people to understand, to communicate better.
00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:25.109
Saves a lot of time. Usually when I go around
00:18:25.109 --> 00:18:28.069
doing these workshops, I'll ask, you know, and
00:18:28.069 --> 00:18:30.509
you will find those members, I said, the scale
00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:33.849
of 0 to 10. Where do you think you're on this
00:18:33.849 --> 00:18:36.250
list, you know, zero being a, no, I'm never gonna
00:18:36.250 --> 00:18:39.109
use air, I'm not good at the air, 10, and you
00:18:39.109 --> 00:18:42.150
find people saying one or minus two, and at the
00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:43.869
end of the session, I'll ask the same question
00:18:43.869 --> 00:18:46.190
again, and they'll, you know, move like two or
00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.910
three or four spaces up, and like, that's a start,
00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:53.430
because now they understand, yes, they are dangerous,
00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:56.369
but if you use it wisely, and if you take all
00:18:56.369 --> 00:19:00.589
the safeguards in place, then it's not much to
00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:03.609
fear, and we can't. go live our lives in fear
00:19:03.609 --> 00:19:07.349
you know we have lots of deep fake and you know
00:19:07.349 --> 00:19:09.549
these things kind of scare people you'll see
00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:12.650
programs or memes or things online and you're
00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:14.630
thinking that's real and then you realize no
00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:17.630
it's not real so people are skeptical about that
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:22.710
and you know saying that you can't use AI to
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.650
write sermons and to preach and to do bus work
00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:30.779
but you can use it to enhance you know to help
00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:33.299
you to plan to do those things I've always said
00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:37.119
it's the human element that will never go away
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.880
and when people understand that if they're going
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.099
to be making progress in even their own work
00:19:45.099 --> 00:19:49.740
world in their own personal life the fear is
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.829
always AI is going to take over our jobs or we're
00:19:52.829 --> 00:19:55.670
gonna take over the world. But I keep on saying
00:19:55.670 --> 00:19:58.809
to people, AI will not take over your job, it's
00:19:58.809 --> 00:20:00.910
the people who are good at using AI that will
00:20:00.910 --> 00:20:04.890
take over your jobs. Yeah, so because, yeah,
00:20:05.109 --> 00:20:07.529
because, and I go back to the supermarket, the
00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:10.950
people who were using the cash registers, taking
00:20:10.950 --> 00:20:12.869
the money, giving you change and so forth, if
00:20:12.869 --> 00:20:14.990
they didn't get their skills updated to using
00:20:14.990 --> 00:20:17.990
the technology, there's no need for me to have
00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:21.140
you in my workplace if you can't. fix a problem,
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.240
you know, it's using those soft skills that is
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.839
needed to troubleshoot and to be, you know, creative.
00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:32.019
And AI helps you in doing that. So when you are
00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:34.700
good at using the technology to do your job and
00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:37.319
make your job easier, then you move forward.
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:43.420
I was speaking to admin staff in the school yesterday.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.059
And she was showing me two folders that she's
00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:49.019
still holding on to. Because she's just afraid
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:50.819
to let go because she has been doing this for
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:53.119
years. I'm like, but this is going to save your
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.259
time. We don't need these things anymore. I said,
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.920
if the school burns down and your files are burned
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:03.700
up, can you get them anymore? No. But if the
00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:05.220
computers are burned up, they're still in the
00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:08.450
cloud. So what are you afraid of? And this mindset
00:21:08.450 --> 00:21:10.509
we need to change. There's a lot of good stuff
00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:13.230
in there. Yeah, some gold. One of the things
00:21:13.230 --> 00:21:15.829
that just jumped out at me is at the beginning
00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:20.289
there, he was basically using a note from Jesus
00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:23.009
where, you know, something that we can relate
00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:26.650
to where like the knife and water and how, yeah,
00:21:26.789 --> 00:21:29.450
like a knife, super dangerous in the wrong person's
00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:32.650
hands, but also super necessary when you're making
00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:35.670
food when something that we can we can relate
00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:39.230
to and yeah i said that in in london there there's
00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:42.890
you know knives you know there's some uh some
00:21:42.890 --> 00:21:45.789
danger around that that's like it's a real threat
00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:49.869
um so yeah ai can be scary with these deep fakes
00:21:49.869 --> 00:21:53.490
and all that but we also can use a knife to you
00:21:53.490 --> 00:21:56.269
know to make food and i think that's a really
00:21:56.269 --> 00:21:59.859
good point that he's making Yeah. I also think,
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.859
I was going to draw on that point in a slightly
00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:07.339
different way, that one of the things about AI,
00:22:07.339 --> 00:22:11.240
which is different to the previous revolutions
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.519
of technology that we've seen, is that AI is
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.279
something that is in the hands of everybody.
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:22.359
Whereas TV, radio, yes, people may consume it,
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.940
but there were a certain group of people who
00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:27.859
were the practitioners of it. And I think what
00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:30.819
he's highlighting is that AI in this scenario,
00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:34.480
everybody, it's democratized. Everybody is a
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.819
practitioner. It's not just consumers. And so
00:22:37.819 --> 00:22:42.019
that makes the level of importance for education
00:22:42.019 --> 00:22:44.980
significantly higher. And the point that he was
00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:47.779
making at the end, I think was also very valid
00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:50.839
in that the human element is the part that won't
00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:52.720
go away. And like he was talking about, people
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.059
concerned about losing jobs. there will be jobs
00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:57.240
lost, but there will be jobs lost to others who
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.859
understand how to use AI. I think if I had to
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:03.460
push back on something, I think that's a bit
00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.519
of a reductionist way of approaching that question
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:08.980
because I think it's inevitable that there will
00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:12.420
be jobs lost over time. It will create other
00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:17.259
jobs, but my feeling is that what it will more
00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:21.369
likely achieve is that There will be overall
00:23:21.369 --> 00:23:24.430
greater productivity for the same number of jobs
00:23:24.430 --> 00:23:29.150
rather than less jobs. That's my feeling on it.
00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.950
I don't have a crystal ball or I'm not a prophet
00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:34.950
nor the son of a prophet, but I feel like that's
00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:37.990
the direction that we're going to head on. Yeah,
00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:42.549
it's a good question. One thing that right now
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:46.650
AI is really heading for is programmers. you
00:23:46.650 --> 00:23:49.170
know, there's, um, and a good friend of mine
00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:52.650
who he's run a very large agency. We were talking
00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:54.470
about this and he's like, yeah, if, if you're
00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.849
the type of programmer that you went to school,
00:23:57.190 --> 00:24:00.410
learned a programming language and you weren't
00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:02.470
really curious and that's when you got really
00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:04.829
good at it, but you just did that one thing,
00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:08.430
then yeah, you're, you're in trouble. Um, but
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:11.210
if you were a programmer and you learn multiple
00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:13.670
languages and you got curious and, and it was
00:24:13.670 --> 00:24:16.150
more about what you were able to do rather than
00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:20.369
just the translation. He related it to a language
00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:23.130
translator in that if you are, if your job is
00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:27.549
to translate from one language to another, uh,
00:24:27.549 --> 00:24:29.109
you know, there's a, there's a lot of language
00:24:29.109 --> 00:24:31.589
translators that yeah, they're out of a job,
00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:35.390
but just like with, with programming and it was
00:24:35.390 --> 00:24:37.839
just similar because if you're telling what the
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.319
client wants and you're translating it into code,
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:44.859
that's a that's a translator. But if you are
00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:49.539
curious and you are going to learn how this technology
00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:53.900
can take somebody's idea and turn it into a thing,
00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:57.660
that's always going to be valuable. And people
00:24:57.660 --> 00:25:02.660
don't have a lot to fear only if they are going
00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.400
to be stuck in their ways and are not willing
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:09.359
to adapt and change. Yeah, if like, Nope, I like
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.319
this exactly the way it is. Life, unfortunately,
00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:15.180
isn't like that. And it is moving quickly. Yeah,
00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.099
very true. And there will be and this is a little
00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:19.900
bit of a teaser of some some of the episodes
00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.220
we're going to have in the future. But one of
00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:24.519
the questions that we asked these people that
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.460
we reached out to was if they had the ability
00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:30.190
to, you know, press the button to delete AI,
00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.829
would they? And I think that is, that was probably
00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:36.269
one of my favorite questions to ask. And I think
00:25:36.269 --> 00:25:38.670
you may be surprised by a couple of the responses
00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:40.410
in that. So that will be coming up in the future,
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:43.130
but yeah. Yeah. No, that was, that was a good
00:25:43.130 --> 00:25:44.710
one. I can't wait to get to that. And we can
00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:47.150
talk about that more and dissect some of the
00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:50.269
reasons why people picked one thing or the other.
00:25:50.349 --> 00:25:53.650
Yeah. That's going to be fun. Yeah. So as we
00:25:53.650 --> 00:25:57.009
sort of, you know, that's all of the, the, uh,
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.859
soundbites that we had to share today. Adam,
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.380
if you were to take a step back from some of
00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:07.220
these, how would you summarize the key things
00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.779
that you think are worth holding onto from this
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:11.660
episode for people who are perhaps listening
00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:14.920
and trying to make up their own mind on how they
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:19.799
should be approaching AI in the future as believers?
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:22.259
What's the structure that they should be approaching
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:26.559
it with? Yeah, I think I am affirmed in both
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.440
of our hypothesis maybe it's because I went back
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.519
and like read the end of the book and yeah these
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.660
These are informing my but yeah, it's like we
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.359
talked about education like understanding what
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.200
AI is and what it isn't and understanding that
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.599
there's different types of AI used for different
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:49.910
types of things and that Covering it with blanket
00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:54.009
statements of AI is good AI is bad is not not
00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.670
appropriate and nor nor helpful. But yeah, that's
00:26:57.670 --> 00:26:59.329
that's the one thing I'm going to keep coming
00:26:59.329 --> 00:27:02.250
back to is that there's there's nuance here and
00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:04.549
worth having conversations about. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:04.650 --> 00:27:07.890
And I think one of the one of the threads that
00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:09.690
was mentioned just briefly in this and I think
00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:11.789
it'll come out more in our following episodes,
00:27:12.210 --> 00:27:16.309
the importance of the the human touch. of to
00:27:16.309 --> 00:27:21.990
what we do. And I think AI is great where AI
00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:24.210
is meant to be, but there are some things that
00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:27.049
need to remain human. And we'll explore that
00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:32.410
more. The one other thing that I wanted to thread
00:27:32.410 --> 00:27:36.069
that I wanted to pull on was something from what
00:27:36.069 --> 00:27:41.109
Pastor John was sharing in his experience or
00:27:41.109 --> 00:27:45.799
the way they're thinking about AI and you preface
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:47.980
this at the beginning of the show as well, Adam,
00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:52.140
that we should be at the forefront of its usage
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:56.420
in our faith community because like Amazing Facts
00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:58.980
are doing, they have made a commitment to, we
00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:02.519
don't want to just be reacting to what is happening
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.500
in the technology space. We want to be, to use
00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.259
revelation language, we want to be the head and
00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:10.299
not the tail. We want to be proactive about this.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.180
And so I want to affirm that as a position for
00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:17.240
us as a church. If we can do that, that puts
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:19.579
us in a place where the gospel moves faster,
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:22.759
where all of these positive things occur if we
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:25.930
take that proactive approach. Absolutely. And
00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:28.230
if you are our dear listener would like to be
00:28:28.230 --> 00:28:32.430
proactive in the development of AI, we encourage
00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:34.990
you to keep following along. Make sure that you
00:28:34.990 --> 00:28:38.329
have subscribed to this podcast so that you will
00:28:38.329 --> 00:28:41.609
not miss an episode. We've got more interviews
00:28:41.609 --> 00:28:44.529
to come from incredibly smart people smarter
00:28:44.529 --> 00:28:48.500
than us. We're learning from people who have
00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:50.579
really thought a lot about this in different
00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:53.579
ways, not just the technological ways, but also
00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:56.299
from the ministerial ways and organizationally.
00:28:56.980 --> 00:28:59.259
Yeah, this is going to be fun. Yeah, it's going
00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:00.819
to be great. All right. Well, thank you for joining
00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:02.339
us for this episode. We look forward to seeing
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:04.380
you for the next one. And until then, God bless.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.520
you're going to be able to preach the gospel
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to every group of people on the planet. Well,
00:00:04.259 --> 00:00:06.559
now we see it's very possible and we can do it
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:09.539
in a very short period of time because of social
00:00:09.539 --> 00:00:12.419
media, the internet. So the words of Christ are
00:00:12.419 --> 00:00:23.399
being fulfilled even now. Hey everybody, welcome
00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:25.300
back to the Blue Vineyard Podcast. My name's
00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:27.780
Luke and I'm here with Adam. Hi Adam, how's things?
00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:31.120
Hey, Luke. It's great to see your lovely face
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once again. Thank you kindly. Thank you kindly.
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Adam, last time we were together, we were talking
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about Christianity in the age of AI and you had
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a sermon coming up and we both said that we were
00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:44.359
going to go our separate ways and we were going
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to interview some people, get some context around
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it. How was your experience? I did, I had a sermon
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and I am so thankful, the word that jumps in
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my head. I'm thankful that we started this series
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because I've had a chance to interview some incredible
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people along the way, which has helped with my
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thinking and my processing on this. I also went
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to a conference, maybe some might know it called
00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:12.989
ASI. And during that conference, I had so many
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conversations about AI and Christianity and how
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people are thinking about it, they're scared
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of it, they're excited for it. Before we jump
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into some of these interviews, because we're
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going to get to those, I would love to hear kind
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of your hypothesis. What are some of the things
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that you're thinking about specifically on our
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title today, our title, which is, How do we prepare
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the church for AI's future? How are you thinking
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about that? Well, in the conversations that I
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had, everything in my mind distills down to a
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single point, and that is education. Whenever
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you're dealing with humans and it's a new technology,
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education is always going to be foundational
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because the people that understand the technology
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and can use it well, they're going to have better
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outcomes. But not only that, they're also going
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to be less likely to succumb to the pitfalls.
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And so with anything new, I feel like this is
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where I come back to. It's a point of education.
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So what about you? Education is so, so important.
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Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. The thing
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for me to add to that is that I think that as
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a faith community, as Christians, as Adventists
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specifically here, we don't want to leave the
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development of AI up to the secular world. We
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have very smart people in our faith community
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and we can engage in this and just like You know,
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for so many, one of the ways I think about it
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is that AI is neither good nor bad. It's just
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a tool. It's the people that use it that craft
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it into the thing that is going to be good or
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bad. So as a faith community, let's engage. We
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can help craft AI's future to one that, in my
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mind, helps reflect Jesus to those that we come
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in contact with, because that is my prayer. So
00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:06.400
yeah, that's kind of how I've been thinking of
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:10.879
it. Now that's excellent. So just to get us started,
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I know we've had a number of people that were
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going to share their thoughts in this episode.
00:03:15.740 --> 00:03:21.080
Where are we starting? Oh, Pastor Wes Vi. Wes
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Vi has one of the specific I don't know if he
00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:26.960
would call it an honor, but I called it an honor
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talking to him. The very first podcast I was
00:03:29.379 --> 00:03:32.500
ever on was Westphi. We were up in Coeur d 'Alene,
00:03:32.500 --> 00:03:38.659
Idaho, and he's a pastor in Texas. So yeah, let's
00:03:38.659 --> 00:03:41.379
listen to a little bit of my conversation with
00:03:41.379 --> 00:03:44.900
Pastor Westphi on how do we prepare the church
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for AI's future. That is a big one, because I
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don't think we know what AI's future is. And
00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.060
that's probably the biggest challenge that we're
00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:57.759
facing, is that we don't really know what this
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is going to become yet. All we know is that it's
00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:04.319
going to change the world. It's already significantly
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:08.979
impacted the world. But we don't really know
00:04:08.979 --> 00:04:11.680
what it's going to look like in three years.
00:04:12.139 --> 00:04:14.360
And most of the leading voices in this are saying,
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in the next three years, radical shifts are going
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to happen. And so it's going to continue to grow.
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I think the biggest thing that we can do as a
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church to prepare for whatever is going to come,
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I think, is to lay the foundation for people
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to be able to process the new world that's going
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to be unfolding. As I talk to church leaders
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and do trainings here in the conference around
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AI and communications technology, people are
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genuinely concerned about AI. They're concerned
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about what it's going to do, that it's going
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to replace the Holy Spirit. There's some big
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concern, and I don't mean to... kind of say that
00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.259
with that tone of my voice, like these are legitimate
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concerns that people have. And so we have to
00:05:03.350 --> 00:05:05.470
help people think through. And when I talk with
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people through that and help them process what
00:05:07.529 --> 00:05:12.829
exactly AI is and reframe it from this mythological
00:05:12.829 --> 00:05:17.829
robot in the ether to a tool, not unlike a keyboard
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or a mouse, they're able to then process that
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a little differently and alleviate some of that.
00:05:23.629 --> 00:05:25.649
So I think framing it up, informing the people,
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and not making it evil. I think that's the best
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thing that we can do because as it unfolds, we
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need to have the channels in place, the relationships
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in place, and the foundation set to be able to
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have meaningful conversations with what is it
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becoming and how is that actually impacting us
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because right now we don't really know. We can
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deal with what we have today, which is just basic
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large language models, but it's going to be so
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much more than that. One of the things I took
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away from that is really kind of an echoing of
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what you were starting out with is this education
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is like he's talking to people that aren't really
00:06:04.459 --> 00:06:08.279
understanding what AI is and truly what the,
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:10.100
you know, the big monster, you know, scary thing,
00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:13.139
scary thing in the sky is like, Hey, let's, let's
00:06:13.139 --> 00:06:15.319
understand what we're actually talking about
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when we talk about AI. Yeah, I also appreciated
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at the end where he pointed out that right now
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what we have a large language models and that
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that's a cool technology. But this is going somewhere
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that is different. And that that we don't know
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what that is. And I think I appreciated the fact
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that he was not saying this is a universal truth.
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And it's great. And it's this and it's that it's
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that well, we know what it is right now. And
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We know that it's changing and we know that there
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are new technologies that are coming. We don't
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know what they look like yet, and we don't know
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how we're going to respond to those. But as you
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say, education is is a key feature. Yeah, no,
00:06:51.860 --> 00:06:54.779
like you said, it's a this is what AI is today.
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I was my wife was doing some continuing education
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.220
classes. She's a speech language therapist and
00:07:01.220 --> 00:07:04.740
she they were doing it on AI and how they started
00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:07.720
with it. Their their talk was essentially this
00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:11.540
is what we know of AI as of today. and tomorrow
00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:14.060
this talk will be outdated. And actually, I think
00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:15.899
their talk was already outdated by the time I
00:07:15.899 --> 00:07:18.680
saw it, because I listened in a little bit. But
00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.899
yeah, things are rapidly rapidly changing. So
00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:23.920
what is AI? Well, I can tell you what it is at
00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:25.899
this moment, but I don't know where it's going.
00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:28.819
Yeah. And I think there's another point when
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I was having a conversation with Pastor Russ
00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:36.980
Wilcox, he is a He's in the technology space,
00:07:37.019 --> 00:07:39.620
but he's on the human side of the technology
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space, if you like. And so, Pastor Russ had an
00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:45.160
interesting take on this. It was shorter, but
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I think it fills in some of the gaps from the
00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:51.060
conversation that we've just been hearing from
00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:53.660
Pastor Wes. So maybe let's listen to that grab
00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:56.319
from Pastor Russ. Look, I think AR has already
00:07:56.319 --> 00:08:03.290
changed the way we do ministry. from the very
00:08:03.290 --> 00:08:06.709
ground level where people are using on their
00:08:06.709 --> 00:08:10.350
own personal machines right through to the systems
00:08:10.350 --> 00:08:12.829
that are created for the church. I think it definitely
00:08:12.829 --> 00:08:16.529
has already changed how we do ministry. I don't
00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:19.069
think it should change why we do ministry. And
00:08:19.069 --> 00:08:21.970
there's certainly lots of bits of ministry that
00:08:21.970 --> 00:08:24.029
it can help with, but there's a whole lot of
00:08:24.029 --> 00:08:28.209
ministry that AI doesn't do and shouldn't do.
00:08:28.790 --> 00:08:34.059
Yeah. I found this interesting because there's
00:08:34.059 --> 00:08:36.039
the delineation that he makes between the how
00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.080
and the why, right? It becomes a tool like Wes
00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.399
was saying, like a keyboard, right? It's a tool
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.600
for a purpose. But, you know, as long as we keep
00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:47.299
it in its right place, it is helpful. And I think
00:08:47.299 --> 00:08:50.960
one of the things that will come out in our future
00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.440
conversations that we have from Ross's perspective,
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a continuing theme in his input was one of governance.
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And how do we how do we protect ourselves from,
00:09:02.649 --> 00:09:04.750
not in like the sky is falling kind of way, but
00:09:04.750 --> 00:09:07.370
how do we have good practices and how do we,
00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:09.889
you know, make it a good experience rather than
00:09:09.889 --> 00:09:12.590
allowing it to become something that we, that's
00:09:12.590 --> 00:09:15.509
not helpful to the church. Right. And not that
00:09:15.509 --> 00:09:18.610
it should change why we do ministry. Um, I think
00:09:18.610 --> 00:09:22.590
that was, you know, like it's, we're not abdicating
00:09:23.690 --> 00:09:27.610
Ministry, the verb, to do ministry, we're not
00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:30.169
advocating that to AI, or I think that would
00:09:30.169 --> 00:09:32.950
be the objective that I would encourage, like
00:09:32.950 --> 00:09:37.450
this isn't like, all right, hey AI robot, you
00:09:37.450 --> 00:09:40.169
go do ministry for me, because I've got TikTok
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to scroll, or something like that. you know,
00:09:43.259 --> 00:09:45.399
it's that's I think an important part of it too,
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.000
is that we are still engaged in the why. So as
00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.279
we sort of come forward, I don't know if there's
00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.980
anything specific in in either of those that
00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:56.139
you want to want to come back to, Adam, but I
00:09:56.139 --> 00:10:00.519
know that educating people is a broad topic.
00:10:01.100 --> 00:10:03.039
And in a number of the conversations that we
00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:08.419
had, there was input around that. I know we have
00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:11.220
another clip that sort of delves into this a
00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:13.340
little bit further and thinks of where do we
00:10:13.340 --> 00:10:15.259
start with this? Did you want to preface that?
00:10:15.659 --> 00:10:17.960
I think that was a conversation you had. Yeah,
00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:21.879
so what's fun, this is Pastor Jean Ross. Pastor
00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:25.600
Ross, he is at Amazing Facts. And one thing that's
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:27.679
super interesting about this conversation to
00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.399
me is that, you well may know, but maybe our
00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.419
audience doesn't, is that Blue Vineyard is working
00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:37.120
with Amazing Facts on a really, really cool.
00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:41.929
implementation of AI. And we can definitely get
00:10:41.929 --> 00:10:44.809
into the weeds on what that is and what it isn't.
00:10:44.929 --> 00:10:47.710
It's called Ezra. I encourage people to check
00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:50.610
that out. And we're really proud of what we're
00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:54.730
building with them. Amazing Facts has historically
00:10:54.730 --> 00:10:59.820
been on the forefront of using... you know, tools
00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:02.299
that are technological, whether, you know, what
00:11:02.299 --> 00:11:06.240
the advent of radio, of TV, of the internet,
00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:08.919
and they're using those to spread the gospel
00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.120
and they see AI as no different. But yeah, why
00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.559
don't I actually let Pastor John talk about that,
00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:19.200
because he says it so well. Well, that's a good
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:21.899
question. I don't know if it's so much us preparing
00:11:21.899 --> 00:11:24.980
the church for AI, because I think AI is here.
00:11:25.419 --> 00:11:28.200
The question is, how do we as a church and how
00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.100
do we as ministries and individuals relate to
00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:35.820
AI? Now, I think of AI as a resource, just like
00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:39.440
we have the printed page was a resource in using
00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.019
that tool to share the gospel and then the introduction
00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:46.600
of radio and television, the Internet. So I think
00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:49.139
we're always wanting to look at new opportunities
00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:52.769
to connect with people. to share the gospel i
00:11:52.769 --> 00:11:56.529
see ai as a resource that can be used to help
00:11:56.529 --> 00:11:58.830
guide people into a clear understanding of bible
00:11:58.830 --> 00:12:00.929
truth and we'll probably get into some of the
00:12:00.929 --> 00:12:03.789
advantages of ai some of the Concerns things
00:12:03.789 --> 00:12:06.809
you need to be aware of when we get into ai But
00:12:06.809 --> 00:12:09.309
I think for us as a church we need to be looking
00:12:09.309 --> 00:12:13.370
at every new technology and new opportunity And
00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:15.850
say how can we use this for the furtherance of
00:12:15.850 --> 00:12:18.389
the gospel? You know one of the greatest signs
00:12:18.389 --> 00:12:21.470
that jesus gave about Where we are in the stream
00:12:21.470 --> 00:12:24.169
of time and how close we are to the second coming
00:12:24.169 --> 00:12:26.649
Jesus said this gospel of the kingdom shall be
00:12:26.649 --> 00:12:29.909
preached as a witness to all the world And then
00:12:29.909 --> 00:12:31.870
the end will come what people might have wondered
00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:33.509
a hundred years ago How are you gonna be able
00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:36.049
to preach the gospel to every group of people
00:12:36.049 --> 00:12:39.230
on the planet? Well now we see it's very possible
00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:41.730
and we can do it in a very short period of time
00:12:41.730 --> 00:12:45.070
because of social media, the internet, we've
00:12:45.070 --> 00:12:48.690
got various forms of broadcast and publishing
00:12:48.690 --> 00:12:51.570
and easy translation into multiple languages.
00:12:52.029 --> 00:12:54.850
So the words of Christ are being fulfilled even
00:12:54.850 --> 00:12:57.750
now. So we want to look at every opportunity
00:12:57.750 --> 00:13:01.250
to help further that work. Yeah, I love that
00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:04.909
too, to all the world. And if we feel that that
00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:08.389
is important, which I think we should, yeah,
00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:12.350
we shouldn't hold back. Not doing so with guardrails
00:13:12.350 --> 00:13:15.509
and doing so intelligently and again, not abdicating
00:13:15.509 --> 00:13:20.429
the why to AI, but yeah, that's amazing facts
00:13:20.429 --> 00:13:23.610
is very clearly seeing that as like, we're told
00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:26.860
to do something, we're gonna go do it. Yeah,
00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:28.899
again, treating it very much like a toolbox.
00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:32.720
This is a tool that we can use to accomplish
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.539
a goal. And as believers, the Great Commission
00:13:36.539 --> 00:13:38.500
is something, like what you said, we should take
00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:42.720
seriously. I noticed that out of all of the respondents,
00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:47.320
Pastor John was very much in advocacy of the
00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:52.139
evangelistic perspective. This really isn't a
00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:54.360
question i'm a yes there are questions around
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.820
i and how it operates in churches and all of
00:13:56.820 --> 00:14:00.019
that's true but if you strip it back and it becomes
00:14:00.019 --> 00:14:03.159
a question of how do we you know how do we use
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.580
this for the furthering of the gospel it becomes
00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:07.960
a very simple. Like a very simple discussion
00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.039
at that point right it's like it's it's a utility
00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:12.100
that we're trying to use and i think what he
00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:17.899
was also what he was also pointing out in the.
00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.000
The way that the church has historically used
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.340
technology all of those technologies when they
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.740
first arrived Had people that were speaking against
00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:30.559
them, you know radio is bad TV is bad And I think
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.799
as we've gone through time we can now look back
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.240
and we can say well None of them and this is
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:36.720
sort of harkening back to a point that you made
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.519
Adam None of them are individually morally bankrupt.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.840
It's a case of how are they being used? You know,
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.480
you can, you can use a TV to do a lot of things.
00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.940
You know, I can, you know, I use mine to, to
00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:51.740
watch a sermon on Sabbath morning. And that was,
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.039
that was a great usage of the TV, but there's
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.279
plenty of stuff that is available on the TV that
00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.419
I would not consider a good usage. And so I think
00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:03.240
AI is whilst being dramatically more useful than
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.000
any of the other platforms we've talked about
00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.820
already. I think that's where it's different,
00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:11.159
but in that's in, uh, the how it's used, not
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.299
in the nature of the product, if that makes sense.
00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:17.200
Yeah. And so much of what's happening in the
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.639
world is that there really isn't anything new,
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.320
but it echoes in a different way. I mean, like
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:27.259
you said, the radio, TV, record players, whatever
00:15:27.259 --> 00:15:30.159
it is. Yeah. Yeah. Printing press. I mean, there's
00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.840
all kinds of wonderful things printed on a printing
00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:36.549
press and other things not so wonderful. but
00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.350
it's the people that are saying, what are we
00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:42.029
gonna do with this tool? And that's why we have
00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:46.830
a requirement to engage. And then also back to
00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:50.490
this topic of educating. This is neither good
00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:54.090
nor bad. I think we'll probably, people who are
00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:58.450
technologists in this field will need to keep
00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:01.070
educating and banging on this drum repeatedly
00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:04.690
of it's neither good. It's not bad, but it's
00:16:04.690 --> 00:16:06.830
what we do with it that matters, and then our
00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:09.230
job to educate. Well, now what are we going to
00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:11.710
go do? You had a good conversation, I believe,
00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:13.889
with Craig Young. I'd love to hear more about
00:16:13.889 --> 00:16:17.190
how that went. Actually, I'd love to take credit
00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:19.830
for this, but our producer, Khan, was the one
00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:23.590
that spoke to Craig, but he has provided that
00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:25.970
recording for us. So Khan, if you can cue that
00:16:25.970 --> 00:16:28.269
up, we would love to hear from Craig. Thank you,
00:16:28.289 --> 00:16:34.169
Khan. It starts with education. educating the
00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:39.950
members at large what AI is, how AI is being
00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:43.110
used already in our everyday life, how it benefits
00:16:43.110 --> 00:16:48.509
us as human beings, the pros and cons of it and
00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:52.990
you know I always go from the angle that water
00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:58.200
and a knife is essential to life but it can also
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.519
be dangerous so we can be drowned from water
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.339
we can you know be killed you know in the uk
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:10.940
we have a lot of knife crime but we grew up you
00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.539
and i grew up in a house where knife and water
00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.599
is you know freely available so what did our
00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:21.559
parents do to make sure that we were safe and
00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:25.319
kept safe from taking a knife and using it wrongly
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.980
or from joining in the bad. And that's the way
00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:32.099
we need to look at how we educate our members
00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.380
in our churches about the use of technology,
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.339
the use of AI. The good, the bad, but focusing
00:17:39.339 --> 00:17:42.339
on the positive side. Yes, there always have
00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:45.680
to be a negative side of anything, but if you
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.660
focus on the positive, educate ourselves and
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:52.420
not be afraid. to try because, you know, we have
00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:55.559
done. We are already using it. It's in our everyday
00:17:55.559 --> 00:18:00.480
life. And once we understand that and once members
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.579
understand that, you know, it is easier to then
00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.789
start making steps to change. the way we use
00:18:06.789 --> 00:18:09.109
it. You can use it to write letters, to make
00:18:09.109 --> 00:18:13.390
devotionals, to help planning or special needs,
00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:15.630
to differentiate the sabbath school lessons,
00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:18.890
to differentiate work, just to make things simpler
00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:21.970
for people to understand, to communicate better.
00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:25.109
Saves a lot of time. Usually when I go around
00:18:25.109 --> 00:18:28.069
doing these workshops, I'll ask, you know, and
00:18:28.069 --> 00:18:30.509
you will find those members, I said, the scale
00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:33.849
of 0 to 10. Where do you think you're on this
00:18:33.849 --> 00:18:36.250
list, you know, zero being a, no, I'm never gonna
00:18:36.250 --> 00:18:39.109
use air, I'm not good at the air, 10, and you
00:18:39.109 --> 00:18:42.150
find people saying one or minus two, and at the
00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:43.869
end of the session, I'll ask the same question
00:18:43.869 --> 00:18:46.190
again, and they'll, you know, move like two or
00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.910
three or four spaces up, and like, that's a start,
00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:53.430
because now they understand, yes, they are dangerous,
00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:56.369
but if you use it wisely, and if you take all
00:18:56.369 --> 00:19:00.589
the safeguards in place, then it's not much to
00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:03.609
fear, and we can't. go live our lives in fear
00:19:03.609 --> 00:19:07.349
you know we have lots of deep fake and you know
00:19:07.349 --> 00:19:09.549
these things kind of scare people you'll see
00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:12.650
programs or memes or things online and you're
00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:14.630
thinking that's real and then you realize no
00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:17.630
it's not real so people are skeptical about that
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:22.710
and you know saying that you can't use AI to
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.650
write sermons and to preach and to do bus work
00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:30.779
but you can use it to enhance you know to help
00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:33.299
you to plan to do those things I've always said
00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:37.119
it's the human element that will never go away
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.880
and when people understand that if they're going
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.099
to be making progress in even their own work
00:19:45.099 --> 00:19:49.740
world in their own personal life the fear is
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.829
always AI is going to take over our jobs or we're
00:19:52.829 --> 00:19:55.670
gonna take over the world. But I keep on saying
00:19:55.670 --> 00:19:58.809
to people, AI will not take over your job, it's
00:19:58.809 --> 00:20:00.910
the people who are good at using AI that will
00:20:00.910 --> 00:20:04.890
take over your jobs. Yeah, so because, yeah,
00:20:05.109 --> 00:20:07.529
because, and I go back to the supermarket, the
00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:10.950
people who were using the cash registers, taking
00:20:10.950 --> 00:20:12.869
the money, giving you change and so forth, if
00:20:12.869 --> 00:20:14.990
they didn't get their skills updated to using
00:20:14.990 --> 00:20:17.990
the technology, there's no need for me to have
00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:21.140
you in my workplace if you can't. fix a problem,
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.240
you know, it's using those soft skills that is
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.839
needed to troubleshoot and to be, you know, creative.
00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:32.019
And AI helps you in doing that. So when you are
00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:34.700
good at using the technology to do your job and
00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:37.319
make your job easier, then you move forward.
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:43.420
I was speaking to admin staff in the school yesterday.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.059
And she was showing me two folders that she's
00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:49.019
still holding on to. Because she's just afraid
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:50.819
to let go because she has been doing this for
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:53.119
years. I'm like, but this is going to save your
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.259
time. We don't need these things anymore. I said,
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.920
if the school burns down and your files are burned
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:03.700
up, can you get them anymore? No. But if the
00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:05.220
computers are burned up, they're still in the
00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:08.450
cloud. So what are you afraid of? And this mindset
00:21:08.450 --> 00:21:10.509
we need to change. There's a lot of good stuff
00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:13.230
in there. Yeah, some gold. One of the things
00:21:13.230 --> 00:21:15.829
that just jumped out at me is at the beginning
00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:20.289
there, he was basically using a note from Jesus
00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:23.009
where, you know, something that we can relate
00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:26.650
to where like the knife and water and how, yeah,
00:21:26.789 --> 00:21:29.450
like a knife, super dangerous in the wrong person's
00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:32.650
hands, but also super necessary when you're making
00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:35.670
food when something that we can we can relate
00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:39.230
to and yeah i said that in in london there there's
00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:42.890
you know knives you know there's some uh some
00:21:42.890 --> 00:21:45.789
danger around that that's like it's a real threat
00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:49.869
um so yeah ai can be scary with these deep fakes
00:21:49.869 --> 00:21:53.490
and all that but we also can use a knife to you
00:21:53.490 --> 00:21:56.269
know to make food and i think that's a really
00:21:56.269 --> 00:21:59.859
good point that he's making Yeah. I also think,
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.859
I was going to draw on that point in a slightly
00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:07.339
different way, that one of the things about AI,
00:22:07.339 --> 00:22:11.240
which is different to the previous revolutions
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.519
of technology that we've seen, is that AI is
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.279
something that is in the hands of everybody.
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:22.359
Whereas TV, radio, yes, people may consume it,
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.940
but there were a certain group of people who
00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:27.859
were the practitioners of it. And I think what
00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:30.819
he's highlighting is that AI in this scenario,
00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:34.480
everybody, it's democratized. Everybody is a
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.819
practitioner. It's not just consumers. And so
00:22:37.819 --> 00:22:42.019
that makes the level of importance for education
00:22:42.019 --> 00:22:44.980
significantly higher. And the point that he was
00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:47.779
making at the end, I think was also very valid
00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:50.839
in that the human element is the part that won't
00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:52.720
go away. And like he was talking about, people
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.059
concerned about losing jobs. there will be jobs
00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:57.240
lost, but there will be jobs lost to others who
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.859
understand how to use AI. I think if I had to
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:03.460
push back on something, I think that's a bit
00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.519
of a reductionist way of approaching that question
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:08.980
because I think it's inevitable that there will
00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:12.420
be jobs lost over time. It will create other
00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:17.259
jobs, but my feeling is that what it will more
00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:21.369
likely achieve is that There will be overall
00:23:21.369 --> 00:23:24.430
greater productivity for the same number of jobs
00:23:24.430 --> 00:23:29.150
rather than less jobs. That's my feeling on it.
00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.950
I don't have a crystal ball or I'm not a prophet
00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:34.950
nor the son of a prophet, but I feel like that's
00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:37.990
the direction that we're going to head on. Yeah,
00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:42.549
it's a good question. One thing that right now
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:46.650
AI is really heading for is programmers. you
00:23:46.650 --> 00:23:49.170
know, there's, um, and a good friend of mine
00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:52.650
who he's run a very large agency. We were talking
00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:54.470
about this and he's like, yeah, if, if you're
00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.849
the type of programmer that you went to school,
00:23:57.190 --> 00:24:00.410
learned a programming language and you weren't
00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:02.470
really curious and that's when you got really
00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:04.829
good at it, but you just did that one thing,
00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:08.430
then yeah, you're, you're in trouble. Um, but
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:11.210
if you were a programmer and you learn multiple
00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:13.670
languages and you got curious and, and it was
00:24:13.670 --> 00:24:16.150
more about what you were able to do rather than
00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:20.369
just the translation. He related it to a language
00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:23.130
translator in that if you are, if your job is
00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:27.549
to translate from one language to another, uh,
00:24:27.549 --> 00:24:29.109
you know, there's a, there's a lot of language
00:24:29.109 --> 00:24:31.589
translators that yeah, they're out of a job,
00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:35.390
but just like with, with programming and it was
00:24:35.390 --> 00:24:37.839
just similar because if you're telling what the
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.319
client wants and you're translating it into code,
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:44.859
that's a that's a translator. But if you are
00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:49.539
curious and you are going to learn how this technology
00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:53.900
can take somebody's idea and turn it into a thing,
00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:57.660
that's always going to be valuable. And people
00:24:57.660 --> 00:25:02.660
don't have a lot to fear only if they are going
00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.400
to be stuck in their ways and are not willing
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:09.359
to adapt and change. Yeah, if like, Nope, I like
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.319
this exactly the way it is. Life, unfortunately,
00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:15.180
isn't like that. And it is moving quickly. Yeah,
00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.099
very true. And there will be and this is a little
00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:19.900
bit of a teaser of some some of the episodes
00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.220
we're going to have in the future. But one of
00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:24.519
the questions that we asked these people that
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.460
we reached out to was if they had the ability
00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:30.190
to, you know, press the button to delete AI,
00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.829
would they? And I think that is, that was probably
00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:36.269
one of my favorite questions to ask. And I think
00:25:36.269 --> 00:25:38.670
you may be surprised by a couple of the responses
00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:40.410
in that. So that will be coming up in the future,
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:43.130
but yeah. Yeah. No, that was, that was a good
00:25:43.130 --> 00:25:44.710
one. I can't wait to get to that. And we can
00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:47.150
talk about that more and dissect some of the
00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:50.269
reasons why people picked one thing or the other.
00:25:50.349 --> 00:25:53.650
Yeah. That's going to be fun. Yeah. So as we
00:25:53.650 --> 00:25:57.009
sort of, you know, that's all of the, the, uh,
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.859
soundbites that we had to share today. Adam,
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.380
if you were to take a step back from some of
00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:07.220
these, how would you summarize the key things
00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.779
that you think are worth holding onto from this
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:11.660
episode for people who are perhaps listening
00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:14.920
and trying to make up their own mind on how they
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:19.799
should be approaching AI in the future as believers?
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:22.259
What's the structure that they should be approaching
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:26.559
it with? Yeah, I think I am affirmed in both
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.440
of our hypothesis maybe it's because I went back
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.519
and like read the end of the book and yeah these
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.660
These are informing my but yeah, it's like we
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.359
talked about education like understanding what
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.200
AI is and what it isn't and understanding that
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.599
there's different types of AI used for different
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:49.910
types of things and that Covering it with blanket
00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:54.009
statements of AI is good AI is bad is not not
00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.670
appropriate and nor nor helpful. But yeah, that's
00:26:57.670 --> 00:26:59.329
that's the one thing I'm going to keep coming
00:26:59.329 --> 00:27:02.250
back to is that there's there's nuance here and
00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:04.549
worth having conversations about. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:04.650 --> 00:27:07.890
And I think one of the one of the threads that
00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:09.690
was mentioned just briefly in this and I think
00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:11.789
it'll come out more in our following episodes,
00:27:12.210 --> 00:27:16.309
the importance of the the human touch. of to
00:27:16.309 --> 00:27:21.990
what we do. And I think AI is great where AI
00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:24.210
is meant to be, but there are some things that
00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:27.049
need to remain human. And we'll explore that
00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:32.410
more. The one other thing that I wanted to thread
00:27:32.410 --> 00:27:36.069
that I wanted to pull on was something from what
00:27:36.069 --> 00:27:41.109
Pastor John was sharing in his experience or
00:27:41.109 --> 00:27:45.799
the way they're thinking about AI and you preface
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:47.980
this at the beginning of the show as well, Adam,
00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:52.140
that we should be at the forefront of its usage
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:56.420
in our faith community because like Amazing Facts
00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:58.980
are doing, they have made a commitment to, we
00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:02.519
don't want to just be reacting to what is happening
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.500
in the technology space. We want to be, to use
00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.259
revelation language, we want to be the head and
00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:10.299
not the tail. We want to be proactive about this.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.180
And so I want to affirm that as a position for
00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:17.240
us as a church. If we can do that, that puts
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:19.579
us in a place where the gospel moves faster,
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:22.759
where all of these positive things occur if we
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:25.930
take that proactive approach. Absolutely. And
00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:28.230
if you are our dear listener would like to be
00:28:28.230 --> 00:28:32.430
proactive in the development of AI, we encourage
00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:34.990
you to keep following along. Make sure that you
00:28:34.990 --> 00:28:38.329
have subscribed to this podcast so that you will
00:28:38.329 --> 00:28:41.609
not miss an episode. We've got more interviews
00:28:41.609 --> 00:28:44.529
to come from incredibly smart people smarter
00:28:44.529 --> 00:28:48.500
than us. We're learning from people who have
00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:50.579
really thought a lot about this in different
00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:53.579
ways, not just the technological ways, but also
00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:56.299
from the ministerial ways and organizationally.
00:28:56.980 --> 00:28:59.259
Yeah, this is going to be fun. Yeah, it's going
00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:00.819
to be great. All right. Well, thank you for joining
00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:02.339
us for this episode. We look forward to seeing
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:04.380
you for the next one. And until then, God bless.
