WEBVTT
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There's a few stages in the joy of art.
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Often it cut starts from pain.
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That's the weird thing.
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So it will start from some pain or discomfort, usually move into like self expression and self therapy.
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But then there's this other bit where you connect to others through it and they see it and they see you through it.
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And you get to change something in the world or in the way people see you or others, or, you can change misconceptions, like with iMama, changing the way people looked at motherhood in the arts, so I think it's a huge bit and it would be a shame, to lose that.
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Welcome to this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast.
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I am your host, Raymond Hatfield.
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And today we are chatting with photographer, filmmaker, Carnie Ariely, about changing the perception of motherhood.
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Through images, this episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the all in one solution to deliver and even sell your photos online.
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You can grab your free forever CloudSpot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage over at deliverphotos.
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com.
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Karni has released a book called iMama, Poetic Truths of Home and Motherhood, which is full of images that she curated.
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So while she is a photographer and filmmaker in her own right, and we do talk a lot about her own personal photography, we also spend a time talking about the image curation process, choosing images that tell an honest story, how to choose one image over another, the technical and emotional elements that she looks for to include, all the things that you do when you go through your own work.
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So there's a lot here for everybody.
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And I will of course link to the book in the show notes as well.
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And I highly encourage you to, give it a look, pick it up, Pick it up if you're a mother, if you're married to somebody who is a mother, or you just know somebody who is a mother.
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It is a beautifully printed book that does a great job at showing all of the, honest and frustrating and messy sides of motherhood and just parenting that I found easy to relate to as well.
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So be sure to stick around to the end where I'm going to share my three biggest takeaways from this interview so that you can start to take these lessons that you hear on the podcast and implement them into your own photography.
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So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's video.
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Carnie, my first question for ya, I try to keep this an easy one.
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I want to know, when did you know that photography, and in particular just creating images, or telling stories, was going to be an important role in your life?
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I'm not sure.
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I think I was a late bloomer, to be honest, because I didn't really find photography till I was maybe 16.
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which I think for today feels really late considering everyone grows up with an iPhone and a camera and another camera and another iPhone and, you know, so I had a camera knocking about that was my grandfather's and my dad's.
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And I think at some point when I was a teenager, I started, directing my friends a little bit and my sister and creating small stories that I think helped me make sense of the world.
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I think people who are creative, you know, I knew I wasn't a writer, but I wasn't sure what I was.
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And I think when I started taking pictures and I saw they were interesting and I liked creating in a way, slightly fantastical scenarios, actually.
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And working with people and portraits in particular, I just felt that I was good at it, that I had something to say.
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And I think what was coming out was this, often photography is really good at channeling something subliminal, something from under the surface that you haven't said verbally or that you haven't even thought of, but it will come out there in your art and kind of face you and confront you.
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I think it felt therapeutic as well as like, that I knew what I wanted to see or create.
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So, and it kind of evolved from there.
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And then I started shooting some, fashion shoots or some little portraits for people and building my confidence, going to art school.
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And at some point there was no looking back.
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Like, I think it felt very natural to me.
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I come from a family of storytellers, but much more verbal communicators or more writing.
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And I am a talker, but I feel like when I talk, it's like I'm too much in control in a way.
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It's like I'm saying what I want to say, whereas when I photograph, the photograph tells me what it wants to be.
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And I think that's a much more in a way, maybe honest communication or surprising or I guess artistic because, it kind of comes, it just like comes from nowhere nearly.
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And that's, I guess that's inspiration.
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That's maybe the people who are in front of you and that's like all the dots connecting, the camera being there, you having your point of view and the person you're interacting with or the scenario.
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just coming into place in your square frame, suddenly you'll just see something that makes sense or that's interesting or light, that hits it just so or whatever.
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And, you know, that point of view of the world, I guess it brings me joy as well.
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Like I guess finding pieces of beauty in a world that can often not make sense.
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brings me joy, so I stuck to it.
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You had those thoughts at 16 years old?
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Because I remember the thoughts that I had at 16 and they were nowhere near that point yet.
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This is all, I don't think you know any story until you look backwards.
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So I think only in hindsight, you can make sense of like what steps you took and what led you there.
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I think when I was younger, I just probably was a bit lost and picked up a camera and it helped me make sense, right?
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So, and it helped me connect with people and have some fun.
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And in a very basic sense, I think it was just like cool or whatever, or just like something I could do that not everyone could do.
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and then I think in hindsight, it was all these things that I understood that, you know, I come from divorced parents and I had a good childhood, but I think I was a little bit lost, I was going to a lot of parties and I think I wanted to make sense of what I was seeing and the world and this helped me.
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This tool was something and this looking, you know, looking closely at things.
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is something I enjoy.
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So then let me ask, back then when you were 16, you had mentioned earlier, going to art school, also, doing some fashion.
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Did you jump straight into say portraits at that time?
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Or were you just photographing everyday life?
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I don't think I ever really photographed everyday life.
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That came when I was much older.
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Like now I like to just find things on walks or with my kids or, and photograph them, but in the, or maybe direct parts of it.
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have a mix.
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But I think at the beginning, I like to create scenes because life didn't seem that fascinating.
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when you go to school and you're like doing the walk and you're in school and then you're at home, living at home, but kind of like dreaming of other things.
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And I think I had to create fantasies.
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I remember climbing into a tree with my mom's old wedding dress and somebody taking a picture of me and then me, being like, at photographing, my friend who I was with and so like, we would like wear clothes or go into slightly surreal scenarios, to maybe, I guess, create little stories.
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And even when I did fashion, it wasn't really fashion, try and get them placed in some magazines, but I think it was more like little scenes of fantasy that were acting out I guess the way I felt in the world or like things I was uncomfortable with or things I didn't know or things I did know but not using myself ever as the subject.
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I always used someone else.
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I never did self, well, I did do some self portraiture when I was, you know, in art school, but mostly I like to focus on other people, but I think it's a self portrait still.
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even though I cast, it's like I'm casting someone as me.
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That's how I see it.
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Yeah.
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I completely get that.
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It's like, I've said it on the podcast before there's that Ansel Adams quote that there's two people in every photo.
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There's the photographer and there's the viewer.
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So in a sense you are injecting a piece of yourself into every photo.
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I love that.
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So at what point, you said that you had went to.
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art school.
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I've found in talking with people that they either go to school for one of two reasons.
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One, because it's just what you do, or two, they know that they're lacking in that area.
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they know exactly where they're lacking and they need to get better.
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So, I guess which one of the two camps, do you feel like, you fit into?
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Or is there a third camp?
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It's a camp that your mom signs you up to art school because she's afraid you're lost and you're going to travel forever and never come back.
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And, she signed me up to this art school that was more of a general art school and I started dabbling in all sorts of art.
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So sculpture, painting, and photography.
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But I think that was a really nice rounded way of trying out different things.
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But I knew I was always best at photography.
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Like I, I did some sculpture.
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I like that.
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I'm horrible at drawing.
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I like dance theater.
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I like moving image and I like photography.
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And again, they're all like very much related to the eye.
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and less to like the hand.
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I'm not very crafty, but I've got a good eye.
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And so, painting didn't suit me.
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But, once I was there, I decided to then specialise.
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and move on more to focus on photography.
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And I think I did love, you know, once I decided to like follow that strength, you get in deeper.
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And I think I did really enjoy like history of photography, going into the dark room, with all those like smells and like seeing an image come up on a paper.
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I guess it's like, Like being a magician, you're like capturing, you know how they always say like that people, you can capture their soul in a photograph or whatever, or they'd be scared to be photographed in case you steal their soul.
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And I think there is some like magic and like fantasy and mystery in the whole process of like capturing an image.
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Because one minute it's In the world and another it's on a paper and it doesn't really make sense.
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Like even though I know the process, something about that is totally bonkers.
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if you think about it, like when people discovered photography, they must've been blown away to like own a piece of the world on a piece of paper, it's kind of crazy.
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And I think, that's what's really incredible that you get to own the world and you get to own it through your own eyes.
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So you create or you see the world in a certain way and that perspective and that point of view is then collected onto this piece of paper or like image you can own and.
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And it explains so much often and it's really exciting.
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So, and then of course, looking at other people's work is really crucial and collaboration.
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you know, my kids, my eldest is now 17 and he's in art school and, I always say to him, the one thing that I think is really crucial in art school is like to collaborate and to learn from each other and to do trial and error and to make a million horrible pieces of work and then a good piece of work, because what we often don't realize is once you go into the world, it's a lot harder to play around.
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Like then you have to make a living.
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You have to have an apartment, you have to like move out of your mom's or whatever, or not.
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and so I'm like, well, really just.
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Go crazy in art school, like really make every, don't, don't get drunk and lie on the floor for the whole two years.
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That's not going to get you anywhere.
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I mean, you really should just like play a lot and, try things and experiment and collaborate.
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And be inspired, often the best ideas, we know this from people who have made it big in the world.
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They're usually inspired by other things, like cross pollination and little ideas that come into their ether.
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and I'm sure I've been influenced along the way by lots of, books I've seen and people I've met.
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And so I think that's really important in the sense of like the art school.
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And it's so much fun, like everyone getting together to discuss and make art.
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Which in the grander scheme of things, like in the world, art isn't considered in a par with like being a doctor or a lawyer.
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But in art school, you are the doctor and the lawyer, right?
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Because It's like the place it's like where you're considered like the big shot in art school is like the person who makes great art, and so I think that's a really good place to get confident and, so I did quite a few years in art school and, but not everybody needs it.
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You know, my partner's more of a like.
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He teaches himself more.
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He's like self taught and he's a bit more of a loner, but he's also an animator.
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They tend to be loners.
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Exactly.
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It's
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a different type of person.
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And not everybody loves, the art school.
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And I don't think you can teach art.
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Like I think you can teach everything that goes around it, like history of art, like the techniques, you can like help you.
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People hone in on what they're talented at and like the critiques are really useful to like figure stuff out to know what you want to stand up for and but in another way I think you should really follow what you love and what you know is best because People feel more comfortable with what they already know and have already seen.
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Which means that anything that's avant garde or forward thinking is at first going to be treated with suspicion.
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Like people aren't going to always fall in love with it straight away.
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just like a song that's like a bit more catchy, right?
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And you like love it straight away, but then the weird ones you really fall in love with, but it takes time sometimes.
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So then let me ask you, a question.
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This isn't really related to the podcast, but, do you think that art can exist then in a vacuum?
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if we can't teach art, but we have to teach essentially, it sounds like the self expression and show art in the past.
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Do you think that art can be created without, oh, but I guess that's hard because I mean, you can see everything as a form of art.
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So you can get inspiration everywhere.
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I don't know.
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I'll let you answer that question.
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Do you think that art can exist in a vacuum?
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Yeah.
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I don't know.
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I mean, I think part of the joy of art is there's a few stages in the joy of art.
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One of it, often it cuts, starts from pain.
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That's the weird thing.
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So it will start from some pain or discomfort, usually move into like self expression and self therapy, but then there's this other bit where you connect to others through it and they see it and they see you through it.
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and you get to change something in the world or in the way people see you or others or, and I feel that that is quite a big part of art.
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So I would say that in the vacuum, you might get some satisfaction, but I think there's a huge part of it that's in the connection and then in taking it out into the world, Other people connect to you that like your art and people see it and feel better looking at your art and you can change misconceptions like with iMama changing the way people looked at motherhood in the arts, so I think it's a huge bit and it would be a shame, to lose that.
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But of course, if you take a pile of like sticks in the forest and do a little sculpture and nobody sees it, that's still art, right?
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I mean, maybe only the squirrels will enjoy it, but, you know, they need art too.
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So, and by the way, I think you can teach art in the sense that I think just through someone going through a process of failure and success, trial and error, collaboration and like solitude, learning tools, honing in on their vision, that is teaching something.
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Like that's teaching a lot, it's the only thing I think you can't teach probably is that something that, that either perspective you have on the world or that spark of inspiration that you'd probably need to get in there.
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But.
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Possibly you could, it could rub off on you from others as well.
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Like maybe you go in and you're a bit like, I don't know, but then you get the bug, right?
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you get into it more deeply.
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So I think you can change as a person too.
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I think there's that option.
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we're not just one line, right?
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We have an arc. So I think it can be taught.
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I just feel like there's probably some bit that you come with and that is your own point of view on the world, your own take on the world, your own eye.
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and that's what makes it unique.
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that's what makes it special.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So then, let's kind of, switch gears here.
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I could talk about this stuff all day and it's really exciting, but, I know that I have you for a limited time.
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So, I want to talk about, your.
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Project iMama.
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In your own words, can you tell me like what was the seed that had started this whole project?
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Maybe it wasn't fully formed yet, but what had got this ball rolling?
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Well, it was 2020 and we all know what happened in 2020 because we were all in the same little blue planet that was suddenly unified by having this virus, this, COVID, epidemic that broke out.
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And we were all going into lockdown.
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I live in Bristol, UK.
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We were at home.
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I had two kids at that time.
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They were, I have two kids, but at that time they were five and, 15, maybe I have a big gap.
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So, one of them was five, the little one, when lockdown started, I was like everyone else, like quite scared and like, Oh my God, is this the end of humanity, you know, and I do what I usually do.
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You know, I was a bit sick at the beginning.
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I might've had COVID and when I started recovering, I picked up the camera and that usually.
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gives me some power back to document and makes me feel like things are going to be okay.
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Because if you're thinking about art, you're probably not dying.
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usually there's like, you're going to be okay.
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So, you know, as document, it might be a false reassurance, by the way, but it is reassuring.
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Because obviously, like a photojournalist, might think that and that might not be the case.
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Anyway, I was documenting my kids in the garden and documenting light on the wall and little things to bring me joy and to connect to the world and try and make sense of everything that was a bit bonkers, I'm lucky to have a garden and, so I was taking these pictures and I was scrolling on social media because I'm also a filmmaker and I work with my partner with a directing duo called Kani and Saul, uh, Sulky Bunnies, our studio.
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And I was scrolling on social media and seeing my feed.
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I follow a lot of women.
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I follow a lot of the female gays because that's what interests me.
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And I guess I feel like that's my people, right?
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Like a lot of visions and visuals made by women.
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and traditionally in art school, you're seeing the male gays a lot.
00:19:19.951 --> 00:19:23.067
So for me, it was like more fresh and, more personal.
00:19:23.067 --> 00:19:40.780
And so, I'm looking at all these images and literally on my feed, nearly like a curated feed, I just see endless images of like these peepholes into homes worldwide, taken by women and mothers onto their own families, like an introspective look.
00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:58.221
at motherhood, home, and family within pandemic, like the head of a child, a mushed biscuit, crushed biscuit on the floor, a mother holding a child, a self portrait of a mother breastfeeding, a child having a tantrum, all of these things that we know so well.
00:19:58.221 --> 00:20:03.505
I never deemed that interesting, but I was finding this portfolio fascinating.
00:20:03.505 --> 00:20:07.605
Like I couldn't look away because I was going through the same thing myself.
00:20:07.605 --> 00:20:10.286
So I'm a mom and I'm a photographer.
00:20:10.286 --> 00:20:25.082
So that, that cross section of my artist self and my mother self had this cross section and I had never really, I mean, I always photograph my kids, but I hadn't sent it out into the world that much and, or used it.
00:20:25.082 --> 00:20:32.752
And the art world is usually quite exclusive and doesn't really deem family life as interesting in the art world or whatever.
00:20:32.752 --> 00:20:36.040
I would kind of leave it at home, like a separate identity.
00:20:36.040 --> 00:20:46.097
But here, what I was seeing was all these photojournalists, all these art photographers, all these fine art, women and artists were photographing the same thing.
00:20:46.097 --> 00:20:47.687
They were all like, they had no choice.
00:20:47.687 --> 00:20:49.538
They were all turning the camera inwardly.
00:20:49.538 --> 00:20:52.927
So usually they would be like on a job or going here or there.
00:20:52.927 --> 00:20:57.258
And suddenly they were all forced to do that kind of, look at themselves.
00:20:57.258 --> 00:20:58.837
And I was like, wow.
00:20:58.837 --> 00:21:08.177
this is so incredible, this body of work that's by, professional photographers looking at something that was deemed uninteresting in history.
00:21:08.177 --> 00:21:15.778
Boring, mundane, even like, oh, you're just a mom, oh, you're just a dad, oh, boring, ho ho, boring, boring.
00:21:15.778 --> 00:21:22.873
or like not art worthy or whatever, suddenly I was like, Oh my God, this looks like really powerful work.
00:21:22.873 --> 00:21:30.742
And I wonder if anyone's ever collected it, and then did some research and was like, well, there's one book from 2013 called Home Truths.
00:21:30.742 --> 00:21:32.707
with very few artists.
00:21:32.707 --> 00:21:37.557
It's a good book, but like well known fine artists, very minimal, in number.
00:21:37.557 --> 00:21:39.387
And I couldn't find anything else.
00:21:39.387 --> 00:21:42.207
there's family of man, that's mostly taken by men.
00:21:42.207 --> 00:21:43.768
There's a few mothers in there.
00:21:43.768 --> 00:21:48.718
There's a few women photographers in there, but it's like, it was taken in a time where it was impossible.
00:21:48.718 --> 00:22:04.798
And I was like, What if we'd collect all of this work and make a platform and a book and in history, like a thousand years from now, people could pick up a book and say, Oh, this is what motherhood looked like in 2020.
00:22:04.798 --> 00:22:14.229
Because we don't have that for world wars or other big events, major events, famine or war or the world wars or the Holocaust.
00:22:14.229 --> 00:22:20.148
You don't have those bodies of work because there weren't enough women who are mothers who are empowered enough to be photographers.
00:22:20.148 --> 00:22:25.729
And the men were usually pointing their lenses outwardly because that's where the interesting things were deemed.
00:22:25.729 --> 00:22:31.979
To be like outward, nobody, like often very few people turn their lens inwardly.
00:22:31.979 --> 00:22:36.418
So then I started collecting it, on Instagram slowly.
00:22:36.418 --> 00:22:38.538
And, the rest is history.
00:22:38.538 --> 00:22:39.918
it just dawned on me.
00:22:39.918 --> 00:22:45.232
I couldn't believe this body of work didn't exist because parenthood and motherhood has existed forever.
00:22:45.232 --> 00:22:47.363
since the dawn of time.
00:22:47.363 --> 00:22:53.262
And since photography existed, obviously they, at first they weren't any women or very few women.
00:22:53.262 --> 00:22:57.903
They were actually few in quite from the start, but I think they just weren't enough.
00:22:57.903 --> 00:23:06.772
And then I found out, the world at 2020 was such that there were so many women photographers and a lot of these women photographers happened to be mothers.
00:23:06.772 --> 00:23:10.692
So it's not like I'm saying all these mothers were taking pictures.
00:23:10.692 --> 00:23:12.742
It was, first of all, these were photographers.
00:23:12.742 --> 00:23:19.137
Who happen to be mothers, who happen to be looking at a subject, which is motherhood.
00:23:19.137 --> 00:23:37.807
And because there's so many stories and pictures of motherhood that are unrealistic, whether it's influencers or culture or commercials, all telling us false things and misconceptions about parenthood and motherhood that make us feel bad or shamed or just don't feel truthful.
00:23:37.807 --> 00:23:41.202
I was like, What's better than telling your own story?
00:23:41.202 --> 00:23:43.163
these are women and mothers telling their own story.
00:23:43.163 --> 00:23:44.863
And that's, that's a huge power.
00:23:44.863 --> 00:23:46.722
that's the ultimate telling your
00:23:46.722 --> 00:23:47.492
own story.
00:23:47.492 --> 00:23:56.153
So then why, let me ask, where did the decision come to curate the photos of others rather than sharing your story?
00:23:56.894 --> 00:23:58.563
Because I saw the potential.
00:23:58.563 --> 00:24:00.364
I think it was bigger than me.
00:24:00.364 --> 00:24:05.132
I think it was like the first time that I was like, you know, my kid's five.
00:24:05.132 --> 00:24:06.682
I'm quite desperate at home.
00:24:06.682 --> 00:24:07.971
I'm kind of, in this look.
00:24:07.971 --> 00:24:09.861
But our film was like put on hold a bit.
00:24:09.861 --> 00:24:12.392
Our film work was like on slow motion.
00:24:12.392 --> 00:24:16.718
And they just saw this little gap where I could look out of my own bubble.
00:24:16.718 --> 00:24:33.697
out of my own comfort zone and be like, wow, maybe I could do something that actually had some meaning, not just about my own existence, but for others and other women of my tribe, parents, women who are artists and mothers are my tribe in a way.
00:24:33.697 --> 00:24:35.687
this was a perfect storm, right?
00:24:35.687 --> 00:24:50.617
Everyone's home, there's pandemic, there's a million photographer women and mothers now because we're sort of advanced supposedly in humanity and everyone's like doing self portraiture and there's this like beautiful portfolio appearing.
00:24:50.617 --> 00:24:54.916
And by the way, to me, beautiful doesn't mean perfect or like happy.
00:24:54.916 --> 00:24:59.557
Like I feel you get happy by sharing truthful images, not happy images.
00:24:59.557 --> 00:25:07.382
So I was looking for like the light and dark, the duality in motherhood, the beauty within the details and the hardship.
00:25:07.382 --> 00:25:12.230
So no fake, influencer type content, which that we had loads of, right?
00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:13.360
Like there's loads of that.
00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:14.070
Yeah.
00:25:14.070 --> 00:25:17.441
And then, you know, I just, I just, I've never had this before in my life.
00:25:17.441 --> 00:25:23.933
And again, this sounds like on the verge of religious or but I really felt a calling because I felt, obliged.
00:25:23.933 --> 00:25:25.677
I knew how this could be.
00:25:25.677 --> 00:25:27.718
I knew how the work should be and could be.
00:25:27.718 --> 00:25:28.968
I saw the potential.
00:25:28.968 --> 00:25:32.798
And I thought if I walk away from this, some, It might never be made.
00:25:32.798 --> 00:25:35.538
sometimes when you see stuff, you can't unsee it.
00:25:35.538 --> 00:25:39.971
And then it's like, it was my calling to make it and I knew I could make it well.
00:25:39.971 --> 00:25:41.000
And I just saw it.
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.711
I had a vision of what this book would be, what this platform would be.
00:25:43.711 --> 00:25:45.644
And I, I just knew I could do it.
00:25:45.644 --> 00:25:49.134
And so I just started trying to make it, you know, not really knowing.
00:25:49.134 --> 00:25:50.375
where it would lead.
00:25:50.375 --> 00:26:02.755
But sometimes making that one first step is the hardest, like naming a platform, I'm on a project, owning it, and then saying to some friends of mine, do you want to feature on this idea I have and I'll tag you?
00:26:02.755 --> 00:26:04.596
And they're like, yeah, sure, whatever.
00:26:04.596 --> 00:26:09.262
you know, then you've got like 10 frames, little frames on the grid.
00:26:09.262 --> 00:26:10.962
And that's like the beginning.
00:26:10.962 --> 00:26:21.418
and then in a way the project takes its own life, like from then on, it's not really that you control the narrative, you can push it, you can try and make it one thing or another, but it's also got its own life.
00:26:21.418 --> 00:26:23.269
Because you've put it out there.
00:26:23.908 --> 00:26:27.673
Let's talk about that then, because you knew that you wanted to collect these images.
00:26:27.673 --> 00:26:34.212
so you had started posting them on Instagram with the hopes of attracting attention, so that others would start to do the same.
00:26:34.212 --> 00:26:39.272
But you said that you knew that this was going to become a project, this was going to become a book.
00:26:39.272 --> 00:26:43.462
So you knew from the beginning that you were going to have to start curating photos.
00:26:43.462 --> 00:26:51.443
And, when I had just checked right before our interview, there was more than 65, 000 images on Instagram that are tagged with iMamaProject.
00:26:51.443 --> 00:26:54.023
But in your book, there's only 228 photos.
00:26:54.023 --> 00:27:00.624
So talk to me about had mentioned there that it's not necessarily your story to tell, it's the story of others.
00:27:00.624 --> 00:27:06.080
But when you're curating this book, this series of images, how do you do that?
00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:10.250
And do you try to separate yourself from that decision making process?
00:27:10.250 --> 00:27:10.780
Or is that?
00:27:10.780 --> 00:27:13.628
The piece of art that you're putting into the project.
00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:16.080
first of all, I think I found a new talent.
00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:20.260
You know how we said we're all beginners, and this goes together well with your podcast.
00:27:20.260 --> 00:27:23.451
But I was a, a newbie curator.
00:27:23.451 --> 00:27:25.790
Like I was a beginner as a curator.
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:31.060
So even though I'd done film and photography for years, And I had a good eye.
00:27:31.060 --> 00:27:32.330
I knew I had a good eye.
00:27:32.330 --> 00:27:32.810
Right.
00:27:32.810 --> 00:27:37.270
And I had a really good sense of what motherhood was because I am one.
00:27:37.270 --> 00:27:41.090
and I have a good sense of what a good photograph is because I'm a photographer.
00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:45.923
And, I knew what was missing from the world because I basically made the book that I was missing.
00:27:45.923 --> 00:27:46.364
Right.
00:27:46.364 --> 00:27:49.634
So I say it's for everyone, but it's also really for me.
00:27:49.634 --> 00:27:50.763
Like I am everyone.
00:27:50.763 --> 00:27:51.134
Right.
00:27:51.134 --> 00:28:07.192
Because, I'm just I'm filling the gap of that invisible book that was meant to be there but isn't there, of what is motherhood today through the eyes of artists and women who are photographers, looking at their own motherhood, like telling their own story.
00:28:07.192 --> 00:28:16.327
And when I curated it, I just think that we should, women and mothers, And fathers and carers have to support each other, like women elevating other women.
00:28:16.327 --> 00:28:30.883
And I think if you're doing something that makes other women feel bad, nevermind the whole thing of like turning your life into an online circus and like constantly showcasing kids and all of, you know, that's a whole other thing, that I don't really want to get into, but of course is an issue.
00:28:30.883 --> 00:28:36.093
I just think I don't want to be involved in something that makes other people feel they're less, uh, Good.
00:28:36.093 --> 00:28:39.103
You know, at caring because of it.
00:28:39.103 --> 00:28:51.522
And I think that, I hope that through this book and this project, women feel that motherhood can be more normalized to have motherhood that's imperfect and fatherhood that's imperfect, but like full of love.
00:28:51.522 --> 00:28:51.928
You know?
00:28:51.928 --> 00:28:56.699
I think we relate better to imperfections because humanness is imperfect.
00:28:56.699 --> 00:29:00.568
I think they just popped out at me from Instagram, to me a good image is.
00:29:00.568 --> 00:29:18.810
On one hand, like it needs good lighting, a good point of view, like we said, like I need to feel that person's point of view, what their world is, so like a peephole into their world, something intimate, something with maybe nice lighting, maybe something surprising or shocking.
00:29:18.810 --> 00:29:20.803
Definitely not the obvious.
00:29:20.803 --> 00:29:23.973
So if I've seen it loads before, I don't want to curate it.
00:29:23.973 --> 00:29:26.431
What I want to curate is the unseen.
00:29:26.431 --> 00:29:32.080
So basically I'm trying to curate something that's been unseen up until now and that I see.
00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:40.894
So it's like I have this kind of special vision, x ray vision, into what visibility of motherhood should be, but isn't.
00:29:40.894 --> 00:29:43.284
And That's what I curated.
00:29:43.284 --> 00:29:45.875
So also it's a balance of like light and dark.
00:29:45.875 --> 00:29:48.644
So, light and dark is a big part of photography.
00:29:48.644 --> 00:29:53.404
It's really important in how you frame a photograph, shoot it.
00:29:53.404 --> 00:30:06.234
and also in the content, I wanted to make sure I had joy and hardship, disappointment, spillage, but also like beauty, skin.
00:30:06.234 --> 00:30:17.706
Touch, softness, connection, and I didn't want to scare people away by portraying motherhood as this kind of insane thing, which it is on some level.
00:30:17.706 --> 00:30:19.037
right.
00:30:19.037 --> 00:30:27.247
So, and then on the other hand, it's also this magic thing where you, you have a being and you nurture it and it's hard, but anything good.
00:30:27.247 --> 00:30:28.116
is hard.
00:30:28.116 --> 00:30:29.767
Anything worthwhile is going to be hard.
00:30:29.767 --> 00:30:46.663
But I think by portraying motherhood as like this kind of fantasy, Madonna images and fantasy, like I'm baking apple pies and juggling and holding seven kids while wearing white, when we're doing an injustice to women, we're faking it.
00:30:46.663 --> 00:31:00.512
And when they finally reach it, and to fathers too, and to anyone who's caring in the parent, We're creating this fake world where then when you enter parenthood, you feel like you're doing it badly because, or you're doing something wrong because it doesn't look like that, right?
00:31:00.512 --> 00:31:03.653
Because it doesn't look like the fantasy that people have sold you.
00:31:03.653 --> 00:31:12.257
But you know, just like we know love stories aren't Hollywood, parenthood isn't Hollywood or influencers Pampers commercials either.
00:31:12.257 --> 00:31:15.846
And very soon I realized I wanted it to be global and inclusive.
00:31:15.846 --> 00:31:20.007
So I knew I can have it with just women who looked like me and thought like me.
00:31:20.007 --> 00:31:22.706
I wanted it to be women from all around the world.
00:31:22.706 --> 00:31:34.970
I wanted it to be diverse and I wanted it to have all the narratives like, adoption and fostering and single mom and, gay couples and miscarriage and abortion and, all the different narratives.
00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:39.461
that lead up to parenting and that are parenting to be as inclusive as possible.
00:31:39.461 --> 00:31:46.575
and also I wanted to be as inclusive as possible in the sense that I said to anyone, you can join if you consider yourself a mama.
00:31:46.575 --> 00:31:48.575
And I used mama as a term of endearment.
00:31:48.575 --> 00:31:52.615
So that any carer who lives with kids could consider themselves a mama.
00:31:52.615 --> 00:31:54.545
You don't have to give birth necessarily.
00:31:54.545 --> 00:31:57.206
And anyone who considered themselves a photographer.
00:31:57.206 --> 00:31:59.236
So again, I didn't ask for credentials.
00:31:59.236 --> 00:32:04.666
I didn't ask for exhibitions or resume because I think we need to level the playing field.
00:32:04.666 --> 00:32:09.946
And I think women have enough penalties as it is, and parents have enough penalties as it is.
00:32:09.946 --> 00:32:23.037
And so to help women advance in this really tricky time of being parents to young kids, I included women who were well known as well as unknown, which is like a big curve ball in the art community, like for curation.
00:32:23.037 --> 00:32:30.289
It's not considered, a thing that you do, because obviously if you're into sales, you want to do well established, photographers.
00:32:30.289 --> 00:32:32.420
but I had nothing to lose.
00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:38.899
Like something when you have nothing to lose, you can take bigger risks because I wasn't a curator and I wasn't making any money.
00:32:38.899 --> 00:32:47.291
So, by not exchanging any money with these women, not making any, and not asking for any, I had complete creative freedom.
00:32:47.291 --> 00:32:50.172
The only thing that was missing was me earning the trust of these women.
00:32:50.172 --> 00:32:57.461
So obviously when you're dealing with the most intimate photography that women can give out into the world, they like to know that you're a mama too.
00:32:57.461 --> 00:32:59.361
They like to know that you're a photographer too.
00:32:59.361 --> 00:33:02.451
They like to see your curation, style.
00:33:02.451 --> 00:33:07.791
One of my favorite images is one by Julie Rene Jones from America.
00:33:07.791 --> 00:33:11.971
And it's an image that was in National Geographic that showcased the project.
00:33:11.971 --> 00:33:16.721
And it's just a hand reaching out from a crib into a beam of light.
00:33:16.721 --> 00:33:19.231
And the crib and the room are quite dark.
00:33:19.231 --> 00:33:22.034
And the light is like hand is flexed.
00:33:22.034 --> 00:33:34.847
Like a zombie hand or like when a baby falls and their hand is like, ding, like really straight and stiff and all you can see is that hand and it's in this beam of light and I love that image.
00:33:34.847 --> 00:33:43.347
I just love that image because not only did it feel to me like humanity trying to reach for the light in COVID, trying to survive.
00:33:43.347 --> 00:33:48.807
It's also about that little baby that all our world is in that little crib in the dark.
00:33:48.807 --> 00:33:49.944
And then that.
00:33:49.944 --> 00:33:52.315
beam of light just illuminates that hand.
00:33:52.315 --> 00:33:55.311
and it's just a detail, you know, it lets you fill in the rest.
00:33:55.311 --> 00:33:59.478
it leaves a lot to the imagination, which I think is, it's really crucial too.
00:33:59.657 --> 00:34:03.377
That's a lot of the fun of art is leaving something up to the imagination for sure.
00:34:03.377 --> 00:34:04.927
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:04.927 --> 00:34:09.512
I'm interested at, as a photographer, know, that a great photo is more than the sum of its settings.
00:34:09.512 --> 00:34:12.012
We know that the story is like so important here.
00:34:12.012 --> 00:34:15.568
As a photographer, you do have to know the technical.
00:34:15.568 --> 00:34:16.932
side of photography.
00:34:16.932 --> 00:34:26.657
So when you were looking at these images, how much of that played a role in, into the selections that you put into the book versus just the story, just the moment.
00:34:27.137 --> 00:34:40.983
Well, because I knew I wanted it to be a book and a platform by photographers, by professional photographers, I'd seen projects that had started in pandemic that were for non professionals, people on iPhones, documenting, right?
00:34:40.983 --> 00:34:46.793
But that's not what I had in mind because at the end of the day, I do have a certain aesthetics.
00:34:46.793 --> 00:34:48.460
The professional photographers.
00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:58.128
I like people who shoot on medium format on DSLRs, I think the iPhone is really useful when you're a mom and you want to just document your every day.
00:34:58.128 --> 00:35:04.393
But I think if you're going to create an iconic One specific image that's really powerful.
00:35:04.393 --> 00:35:10.273
You're going to want to use a better tool saying that the book and the project have iPhone images.
00:35:10.273 --> 00:35:12.514
So I broke my own rules.
00:35:12.514 --> 00:35:17.304
I made them and then I broke them, but what I tried to do was get the best images.
00:35:17.304 --> 00:35:20.574
I could find that portrayed motherhood.
00:35:20.574 --> 00:35:22.523
as a complex issue.
00:35:22.523 --> 00:35:26.188
So, you have to, I call it the honey, like visual pleasure is the honey.
00:35:26.188 --> 00:35:34.317
You want to draw all these little fireflies to the honey and the light first, and then you can dish out any old story you want to dish out.
00:35:34.317 --> 00:35:42.358
People will swallow anything if it's covered in honey, just like that, paracetamol pill or medicine that you'll cover in honey, right?
00:35:42.358 --> 00:35:55.422
So I feel that the duality of I Mama and the hard, more truthful tales that are in there sometimes, Still need to be kind of wrapped up in this photographic aesthetic language, right?
00:35:55.422 --> 00:35:57.523
Because we're still dealing with an art form, right?
00:35:57.523 --> 00:36:00.108
and again, I never asked for credentials.
00:36:00.108 --> 00:36:01.038
I never knew.
00:36:01.038 --> 00:36:09.679
I think your eye can often tell what is like a casual snapshot that's meant for the home and for your own photo book.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:13.068
And what is something more iconic that you've managed to capture?
00:36:13.068 --> 00:36:17.773
I was fully aware that touching on childhood and motherhood.
00:36:17.773 --> 00:36:25.340
on the internet, which is the wild west and not the perfect place for any portfolio, you know, definitely not for women.
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.561
we got removed and censored a lot.
00:36:27.561 --> 00:36:32.690
That's a whole other story by Instagram for showing breastfeeding images and other things.
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:37.181
So I was just very aware that I didn't want to show kids in full nudity.
00:36:37.181 --> 00:36:44.311
I would show skin and I would show suggestions of intimacy, that was just my mother instinct, that's the interesting thing.
00:36:44.311 --> 00:36:49.811
I just showed work that I would probably be okay with myself and respected that.
00:36:49.811 --> 00:36:58.585
And, as the trust grew between the photographers who were submitting and myself, as my confidence grew, there were friendships that formed.
00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:23.974
So the first thousand women who joined, I probably know them all personally or the first 500, because we would, chat to each other on DMs and connect in lockdown and, like this kind of delicate spider web of eyes and hearts all over the world, interconnecting and sending these images and forming this current undercurrent of the story of motherhood, and inspiring each other, you know, and being inspired by each other's images.
00:37:23.974 --> 00:37:27.713
And so in a way, that was an art school for us.
00:37:27.713 --> 00:37:28.858
in a sense,
00:37:28.858 --> 00:37:29.579
you
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.739
know, getting together like that.
00:37:32.058 --> 00:37:41.865
Now, of course, yeah, being able to share images, talk about those photos, and, come up with new ideas is, I mean, for me, that's where I found biggest benefit of film school.
00:37:41.865 --> 00:37:43.945
It wasn't so much learning the technical abilities.
00:37:43.945 --> 00:37:45.235
I think anybody can do that.
00:37:45.235 --> 00:37:48.476
But as you were saying earlier, the collaboration is, is it.
00:37:48.476 --> 00:37:49.835
You don't have to go to school for that.
00:37:49.835 --> 00:37:55.706
If you have a way of doing that on your own, you can get a lot of the same same output.
00:37:55.706 --> 00:37:56.775
Absolutely.
00:37:56.775 --> 00:38:00.835
And this will be my last question here for you, because I know that we are we're officially over our time.
00:38:00.835 --> 00:38:07.228
But when you have these different steps when you have all of these people who are giving their opinion.
00:38:07.228 --> 00:38:09.208
How do you know that you've reached the finish line?
00:38:09.208 --> 00:38:10.389
How do you know that you're ready?
00:38:10.389 --> 00:38:12.938
You put the stamp on it and you say, send it to print.
00:38:12.938 --> 00:38:14.048
We are done.
00:38:14.048 --> 00:38:18.028
Because it seems to me like that process could just go on forever.
00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:18.778
Yeah.
00:38:18.778 --> 00:38:21.099
I mean, that was one of the toughest bits.
00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:23.228
I think, first of all, you have a deadline, right?
00:38:23.228 --> 00:38:31.396
So I think, knowing that we wanted the book out at a certain time, the publication was waiting because they also don't forget the publication.
00:38:31.396 --> 00:38:38.706
Usually they gave me total creative freedom to know if they're a German publication, but they also have a veto.
00:38:38.706 --> 00:38:42.356
So they can like look at some images or try and influence you one way or another.
00:38:42.356 --> 00:38:45.177
If they think it's going to harm the book or that they don't.
00:38:45.177 --> 00:38:46.552
CI to I with you.
00:38:46.552 --> 00:38:51.251
I was very lucky that I got to really make the book I wanted with the text I wanted.
00:38:51.251 --> 00:38:58.782
it's got a few interesting texts in there about motherhood and about my process and also some quotes that I really wanted in there.
00:38:58.782 --> 00:39:22.965
But I think in the end, also because I also had this vision from the start and it had this flavor, the Mama Gaye's had this flavor that I kind of knew, Was this flavor of the mama gaze that was unseen and this book that I was looking for in a way and it's quite hard to describe but it's built up of all these pieces, all of these things that I've mentioned before the imperfections the duality dark and light.
00:39:22.965 --> 00:39:26.788
I think when I got as close as I could.
00:39:26.788 --> 00:39:30.286
Then at some point I was like, well, I also have to know.
00:39:30.286 --> 00:39:32.563
That this is the best I can do for now.
00:39:32.563 --> 00:39:34.483
this is never gonna be a perfect book.
00:39:34.483 --> 00:39:46.471
and it's either you try forever to get something iconic, but you might, it might take you five years, and by then, somebody would have made another book, or twenty books, or you wouldn't have been able to make it, or whatever.
00:39:46.471 --> 00:39:51.141
Or you make the book that you can make now, and I was very intent on making it within the year.
00:39:51.141 --> 00:40:05.726
once I pitched the book project because I, knew it was a contemporary, urgent topic, with, abortion rights in the States and paid leave rights being threatened and all these issues, expensive childcare all over the world and like women's rights and data.
00:40:05.726 --> 00:40:12.925
It's like a hot topic and really important for change, but I feel like you can't empower the invisible.
00:40:12.925 --> 00:40:16.135
Like first you need visibility and then you can empower something.
00:40:16.135 --> 00:40:17.905
It was just a version.
00:40:17.905 --> 00:40:23.996
In the end I had to like, again, give myself permission to say, this is the best version of the book I can get to.
00:40:23.996 --> 00:40:31.315
And once I changed my mind a million times and fought for things I was passionate about, some images I was in love with, right.
00:40:31.315 --> 00:40:38.226
So I'd fight for, and nothing could change my mind, but some images I would fight for, and they'd be like, nah, this is too much or bloody or whatever.
00:40:38.226 --> 00:40:49.478
I'd like, so sometimes like how much you're willing to fight for something is also your parameter or like your assessment on like how important it is, because when you're tired, you're like, okay, I'll just fight for that, but I won't fight for that.
00:40:49.478 --> 00:40:51.318
and you have to do a compromise.
00:40:51.318 --> 00:41:01.663
And so, It just like, you know, the graphic designer put pressure on me in the publication close it up and I had to just face the music and be like, okay, this is it.
00:41:01.663 --> 00:41:05.974
And of course, as soon as I shut it, I was like, Oh God, I forgot that mom.
00:41:05.974 --> 00:41:08.083
Oh God, that image could have been amazing in there.
00:41:08.083 --> 00:41:11.994
And then when I went back to the long list, I was like, Oh God, I would live.
00:41:11.994 --> 00:41:19.699
But of course, once you have the book done, the other images that you haven't looked at for a long time, look fresher, look like more exciting.
00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:22.449
So there's also that weird thing of like the new to you.
00:41:22.449 --> 00:41:29.318
So the new to me was new when I started the book, but then it became the old, but to other people, it will be the fresh.
00:41:29.318 --> 00:41:31.933
when you make art, you have to be careful of that as well.
00:41:31.933 --> 00:41:36.284
That what you've lived with for a long time can seem like not that interesting anymore.
00:41:36.284 --> 00:41:37.353
Like you've seen it, you've seen it.
00:41:37.353 --> 00:41:38.884
It doesn't have that exciting.
00:41:38.884 --> 00:41:40.873
Oh my God, look at that image.
00:41:40.873 --> 00:41:46.193
Because you've gotten used to it, just like with love or, relationship or whatever you have to like.
00:41:46.193 --> 00:41:48.913
you have to really trust yourself in the process.
00:41:48.913 --> 00:42:01.753
And that's some of the hardest things to do is you have to, that thing of like faking it or like believing in yourself, even if you have those doubts and selling it to others, that self belief in the project in yourself.
00:42:01.753 --> 00:42:04.250
I think that's really crucial because.
00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:11.465
without it, without that fire and that self belief, things are going to knock you down along the way and throw you off course.
00:42:11.465 --> 00:42:24.782
You really have to be like absolutely certain in your drive and your mission, but be open enough to accept other people's opinions or like zigzags along the way, but again, I can only say all of this.
00:42:24.782 --> 00:42:29.393
Clever stuff in hindsight, right?
00:42:29.393 --> 00:42:39.603
Like when you're on it, when you're walking on that path, often you fall down, you get up, whatever you can't, you don't see the full, the astronaut perspective when you're in it, it's only when you zoom out.
00:42:39.603 --> 00:43:01.108
That you can like tell what it's been and learn from it, and I'm really grateful for that, for the like insane learning experience and like all these friendships and all this work that I've had the privilege of, curating and, cause it's really a collective body of work, this is a collective vision by women around the world, which is kind of a first of its kind, definitely in scope.
00:43:01.108 --> 00:43:05.748
so that's a big satisfaction knowing that and having that.
00:43:06.188 --> 00:43:08.387
Of course, as a photographer, it can be hard.
00:43:08.387 --> 00:43:13.248
We feel like this thing that we're shooting ourselves is us.
00:43:13.248 --> 00:43:17.188
And whenever there's any sort of criticism on an image, we feel like it's.
00:43:17.188 --> 00:43:21.117
so oftentimes we try not to collaborate with others.
00:43:21.117 --> 00:43:25.878
but by hearing your story here today, that is something that, that I've definitely taken away.
00:43:25.878 --> 00:43:33.967
And then I want to, do more of, because clearly your energy and this passion that you put in is you're able to magnify that when you collaborate with others.
00:43:33.967 --> 00:43:39.873
So I really appreciate you sharing everything that you have here today, but I know that listeners are thinking to themselves.
00:43:39.873 --> 00:43:41.369
I want to see some of these images.
00:43:41.369 --> 00:43:43.009
I want to know more about this project.
00:43:43.009 --> 00:43:47.748
So before I let you go, can you share where listeners can find out more about this project online?
00:43:48.558 --> 00:43:49.148
Absolutely.
00:43:49.148 --> 00:43:56.199
I mean, if you Google iMama project and iMama book, that's the obvious go to, but there is www.
00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.239
imamaproject.
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.349
com and there's links in that.
00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.538
It's a very simple website, but it's got all the links to the articles.
00:44:02.538 --> 00:44:06.778
it's been featured in National Geographic, Vogue, Wall Street Journal, Creative Review.
00:44:06.778 --> 00:44:09.099
a lot of articles over the time.
00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:13.119
And, also the Instagram, of course, which is, imamaproject.
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:13.679
com.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:23.273
all one word and the book is on Amazon and all the online usual places, that you have, it's distribution is worldwide.
00:44:23.273 --> 00:44:26.927
But again, I would love people to, look at the book.
00:44:26.927 --> 00:44:31.306
I've always asked for the bookshops to keep one of the copies open so people can look through.
00:44:31.306 --> 00:44:39.603
get the books for people you love and also get them for people who you think need to see the story of motherhood, like sometimes that's really crucial.
00:44:39.603 --> 00:44:45.134
I wish we could give it to every business and every birth suite at every school, maybe in the future.
00:44:45.134 --> 00:44:52.773
because I'd love to do more exhibitions as well and an archive of motherhood, like there's still more things we could do with it looking forward.
00:44:52.773 --> 00:45:00.554
There's, a lot you can get to through the images that are shared on the Instagram, if you follow the trail to these women who are photographers.
00:45:00.554 --> 00:45:08.509
It's kind of this endless rabbit hole, but a good rabbit hole, you know, I have like interesting, photography by women today.
00:45:08.509 --> 00:45:11.268
So, so that's really, really nice.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:17.009
Once again, just a big thank you to Karni for coming on and sharing everything that she did.
00:45:17.009 --> 00:45:20.188
I'm going to share with you my three biggest takeaways that I learned.
00:45:20.188 --> 00:45:21.398
picked up from this episode.
00:45:21.398 --> 00:45:24.168
The first one was that real is messy.
00:45:24.168 --> 00:45:27.239
it's easy to think that a photo has to be beautiful to stand out.
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:35.201
A beautiful sunrise, a smiling, happy kid, a perfectly clean and put together house that, you know, that's not always life.
00:45:35.201 --> 00:45:38.605
a sunset lasts for like, one thirtieth of the day, I don't know.
00:45:38.605 --> 00:45:53.835
And yet, if you only looked at landscape photos, you would think that that's what the sky looked like every day, The people that we watch online, their house may be clean for only, the same one thirtieth of the day, but because that's all that they show, we assume Did they always have their stuff together?
00:45:53.835 --> 00:45:54.405
Always.
00:45:54.405 --> 00:46:01.355
You have the ability with your camera to tell a beautiful story that is rooted in honesty, even if it's a bit messy.
00:46:01.355 --> 00:46:04.266
Takeaway number two is just the importance of being self aware.
00:46:04.266 --> 00:46:11.255
This project would not have happened if some were not self aware enough to share their real world.
00:46:11.255 --> 00:46:12.485
being aware of.
00:46:12.485 --> 00:46:23.820
Where you are and recognize how it may be the same as others and how it may differ from others Can allow you to see opportunities and what you can share In way to communicate with others.
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:31.041
Takeaway number two is also the importance of artistic growth Curating images has to be hard.
00:46:31.041 --> 00:46:51.775
you build relationships with these people see into their lives You're trusted with that and you have to decide what image best tells the story that you want to tell You And if this photo that you love from somebody who, you've built a relationship with doesn't fit the story, well, you have to know that, and you have to make the decision to stay true to your vision.
00:46:51.775 --> 00:47:01.666
As a filmmaker, Carney knows, but there are times where you spend the time and effort to get a shot, and then it just ends up being cut from the final product.
00:47:01.666 --> 00:47:06.255
It's not about being a bad shot or a waste of time.
00:47:06.255 --> 00:47:11.090
It's just that didn't fit the overall message that you're going for.
00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:17.030
And that muscle takes time to develop, it takes time to grow, but the only way to do it is to do it.
00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:18.650
So that is it for this week.
00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:24.181
thank you again for tuning in to this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by CloudSpot.
00:47:24.181 --> 00:47:27.851
Remember to grab your free CloudSpot account over at DeliverPhotos.
00:47:27.851 --> 00:47:28.250
com.
00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:31.951
And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better you will be.
00:47:31.951 --> 00:47:32.931
Tomorrow.
00:47:32.931 --> 00:47:33.951
Talk soon.
00:47:33.951 --> 00:47:38.960
Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast.
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:41.371
Keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.
00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:02.399
There's a few stages in the joy of art.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:04.349
Often it cut starts from pain.
00:00:04.349 --> 00:00:05.259
That's the weird thing.
00:00:05.259 --> 00:00:12.057
So it will start from some pain or discomfort, usually move into like self expression and self therapy.
00:00:12.057 --> 00:00:18.457
But then there's this other bit where you connect to others through it and they see it and they see you through it.
00:00:18.457 --> 00:00:32.131
And you get to change something in the world or in the way people see you or others, or, you can change misconceptions, like with iMama, changing the way people looked at motherhood in the arts, so I think it's a huge bit and it would be a shame, to lose that.
00:00:34.151 --> 00:00:37.021
Welcome to this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast.
00:00:37.021 --> 00:00:38.990
I am your host, Raymond Hatfield.
00:00:38.990 --> 00:00:46.831
And today we are chatting with photographer, filmmaker, Carnie Ariely, about changing the perception of motherhood.
00:00:46.831 --> 00:00:54.680
Through images, this episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the all in one solution to deliver and even sell your photos online.
00:00:54.680 --> 00:01:01.030
You can grab your free forever CloudSpot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage over at deliverphotos.
00:01:01.030 --> 00:01:02.360
com.
00:01:02.360 --> 00:01:14.046
Karni has released a book called iMama, Poetic Truths of Home and Motherhood, which is full of images that she curated.
00:01:14.046 --> 00:01:38.564
So while she is a photographer and filmmaker in her own right, and we do talk a lot about her own personal photography, we also spend a time talking about the image curation process, choosing images that tell an honest story, how to choose one image over another, the technical and emotional elements that she looks for to include, all the things that you do when you go through your own work.
00:01:38.564 --> 00:01:40.584
So there's a lot here for everybody.
00:01:40.584 --> 00:01:43.305
And I will of course link to the book in the show notes as well.
00:01:43.305 --> 00:01:51.984
And I highly encourage you to, give it a look, pick it up, Pick it up if you're a mother, if you're married to somebody who is a mother, or you just know somebody who is a mother.
00:01:51.984 --> 00:02:05.203
It is a beautifully printed book that does a great job at showing all of the, honest and frustrating and messy sides of motherhood and just parenting that I found easy to relate to as well.
00:02:05.203 --> 00:02:16.853
So be sure to stick around to the end where I'm going to share my three biggest takeaways from this interview so that you can start to take these lessons that you hear on the podcast and implement them into your own photography.
00:02:16.853 --> 00:02:19.543
So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's video.
00:02:19.543 --> 00:02:24.473
Carnie, my first question for ya, I try to keep this an easy one.
00:02:24.473 --> 00:02:33.313
I want to know, when did you know that photography, and in particular just creating images, or telling stories, was going to be an important role in your life?
00:02:33.699 --> 00:02:34.469
I'm not sure.
00:02:34.469 --> 00:02:42.120
I think I was a late bloomer, to be honest, because I didn't really find photography till I was maybe 16.
00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:55.752
which I think for today feels really late considering everyone grows up with an iPhone and a camera and another camera and another iPhone and, you know, so I had a camera knocking about that was my grandfather's and my dad's.
00:02:55.752 --> 00:03:09.587
And I think at some point when I was a teenager, I started, directing my friends a little bit and my sister and creating small stories that I think helped me make sense of the world.
00:03:09.587 --> 00:03:15.354
I think people who are creative, you know, I knew I wasn't a writer, but I wasn't sure what I was.
00:03:15.354 --> 00:03:23.974
And I think when I started taking pictures and I saw they were interesting and I liked creating in a way, slightly fantastical scenarios, actually.
00:03:23.974 --> 00:03:31.518
And working with people and portraits in particular, I just felt that I was good at it, that I had something to say.
00:03:31.518 --> 00:03:48.163
And I think what was coming out was this, often photography is really good at channeling something subliminal, something from under the surface that you haven't said verbally or that you haven't even thought of, but it will come out there in your art and kind of face you and confront you.
00:03:48.163 --> 00:03:55.712
I think it felt therapeutic as well as like, that I knew what I wanted to see or create.
00:03:55.712 --> 00:03:58.052
So, and it kind of evolved from there.
00:03:58.052 --> 00:04:06.272
And then I started shooting some, fashion shoots or some little portraits for people and building my confidence, going to art school.
00:04:06.272 --> 00:04:09.853
And at some point there was no looking back.
00:04:09.853 --> 00:04:13.983
Like, I think it felt very natural to me.
00:04:13.983 --> 00:04:20.449
I come from a family of storytellers, but much more verbal communicators or more writing.
00:04:20.449 --> 00:04:28.475
And I am a talker, but I feel like when I talk, it's like I'm too much in control in a way.
00:04:28.475 --> 00:04:34.406
It's like I'm saying what I want to say, whereas when I photograph, the photograph tells me what it wants to be.
00:04:34.406 --> 00:04:46.992
And I think that's a much more in a way, maybe honest communication or surprising or I guess artistic because, it kind of comes, it just like comes from nowhere nearly.
00:04:46.992 --> 00:04:49.502
And that's, I guess that's inspiration.
00:04:49.502 --> 00:05:01.622
That's maybe the people who are in front of you and that's like all the dots connecting, the camera being there, you having your point of view and the person you're interacting with or the scenario.
00:05:01.622 --> 00:05:13.254
just coming into place in your square frame, suddenly you'll just see something that makes sense or that's interesting or light, that hits it just so or whatever.
00:05:13.254 --> 00:05:17.971
And, you know, that point of view of the world, I guess it brings me joy as well.
00:05:17.971 --> 00:05:23.261
Like I guess finding pieces of beauty in a world that can often not make sense.
00:05:23.261 --> 00:05:26.487
brings me joy, so I stuck to it.
00:05:26.958 --> 00:05:28.608
You had those thoughts at 16 years old?
00:05:28.608 --> 00:05:31.918
Because I remember the thoughts that I had at 16 and they were nowhere near that point yet.
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This is all, I don't think you know any story until you look backwards.
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So I think only in hindsight, you can make sense of like what steps you took and what led you there.
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I think when I was younger, I just probably was a bit lost and picked up a camera and it helped me make sense, right?
00:05:51.103 --> 00:05:54.562
So, and it helped me connect with people and have some fun.
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And in a very basic sense, I think it was just like cool or whatever, or just like something I could do that not everyone could do.
00:06:01.589 --> 00:06:20.689
and then I think in hindsight, it was all these things that I understood that, you know, I come from divorced parents and I had a good childhood, but I think I was a little bit lost, I was going to a lot of parties and I think I wanted to make sense of what I was seeing and the world and this helped me.
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This tool was something and this looking, you know, looking closely at things.
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is something I enjoy.
00:06:27.754 --> 00:06:34.321
So then let me ask, back then when you were 16, you had mentioned earlier, going to art school, also, doing some fashion.
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Did you jump straight into say portraits at that time?
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Or were you just photographing everyday life?
00:06:39.824 --> 00:06:42.774
I don't think I ever really photographed everyday life.
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That came when I was much older.
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Like now I like to just find things on walks or with my kids or, and photograph them, but in the, or maybe direct parts of it.
00:06:53.274 --> 00:06:54.060
have a mix.
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But I think at the beginning, I like to create scenes because life didn't seem that fascinating.
00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:08.459
when you go to school and you're like doing the walk and you're in school and then you're at home, living at home, but kind of like dreaming of other things.
00:07:08.459 --> 00:07:11.279
And I think I had to create fantasies.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:30.625
I remember climbing into a tree with my mom's old wedding dress and somebody taking a picture of me and then me, being like, at photographing, my friend who I was with and so like, we would like wear clothes or go into slightly surreal scenarios, to maybe, I guess, create little stories.
00:07:30.625 --> 00:07:54.341
And even when I did fashion, it wasn't really fashion, try and get them placed in some magazines, but I think it was more like little scenes of fantasy that were acting out I guess the way I felt in the world or like things I was uncomfortable with or things I didn't know or things I did know but not using myself ever as the subject.
00:07:54.341 --> 00:07:55.492
I always used someone else.
00:07:55.492 --> 00:08:05.430
I never did self, well, I did do some self portraiture when I was, you know, in art school, but mostly I like to focus on other people, but I think it's a self portrait still.
00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:08.740
even though I cast, it's like I'm casting someone as me.
00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:10.141
That's how I see it.
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:11.201
Yeah.
00:08:11.201 --> 00:08:12.240
I completely get that.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.564
It's like, I've said it on the podcast before there's that Ansel Adams quote that there's two people in every photo.
00:08:16.564 --> 00:08:18.494
There's the photographer and there's the viewer.
00:08:18.494 --> 00:08:21.954
So in a sense you are injecting a piece of yourself into every photo.
00:08:21.954 --> 00:08:22.863
I love that.
00:08:22.863 --> 00:08:25.584
So at what point, you said that you had went to.
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art school.
00:08:26.384 --> 00:08:32.014
I've found in talking with people that they either go to school for one of two reasons.
00:08:32.014 --> 00:08:37.303
One, because it's just what you do, or two, they know that they're lacking in that area.
00:08:37.303 --> 00:08:40.614
they know exactly where they're lacking and they need to get better.
00:08:40.614 --> 00:08:43.663
So, I guess which one of the two camps, do you feel like, you fit into?
00:08:43.663 --> 00:08:45.384
Or is there a third camp?
00:08:46.803 --> 00:08:53.464
It's a camp that your mom signs you up to art school because she's afraid you're lost and you're going to travel forever and never come back.
00:08:53.464 --> 00:09:00.643
And, she signed me up to this art school that was more of a general art school and I started dabbling in all sorts of art.
00:09:00.643 --> 00:09:03.102
So sculpture, painting, and photography.
00:09:03.102 --> 00:09:07.753
But I think that was a really nice rounded way of trying out different things.
00:09:07.753 --> 00:09:10.602
But I knew I was always best at photography.
00:09:10.602 --> 00:09:12.312
Like I, I did some sculpture.
00:09:12.312 --> 00:09:13.232
I like that.
00:09:13.232 --> 00:09:14.783
I'm horrible at drawing.
00:09:14.783 --> 00:09:16.383
I like dance theater.
00:09:16.383 --> 00:09:18.322
I like moving image and I like photography.
00:09:18.322 --> 00:09:21.072
And again, they're all like very much related to the eye.
00:09:21.072 --> 00:09:22.991
and less to like the hand.
00:09:22.991 --> 00:09:26.282
I'm not very crafty, but I've got a good eye.
00:09:26.282 --> 00:09:28.831
And so, painting didn't suit me.
00:09:28.831 --> 00:09:32.201
But, once I was there, I decided to then specialise.
00:09:32.201 --> 00:09:35.234
and move on more to focus on photography.
00:09:35.234 --> 00:09:42.081
And I think I did love, you know, once I decided to like follow that strength, you get in deeper.
00:09:42.081 --> 00:09:51.321
And I think I did really enjoy like history of photography, going into the dark room, with all those like smells and like seeing an image come up on a paper.
00:09:51.321 --> 00:10:04.422
I guess it's like, Like being a magician, you're like capturing, you know how they always say like that people, you can capture their soul in a photograph or whatever, or they'd be scared to be photographed in case you steal their soul.
00:10:04.422 --> 00:10:11.932
And I think there is some like magic and like fantasy and mystery in the whole process of like capturing an image.
00:10:11.932 --> 00:10:19.131
Because one minute it's In the world and another it's on a paper and it doesn't really make sense.
00:10:19.131 --> 00:10:23.731
Like even though I know the process, something about that is totally bonkers.
00:10:23.731 --> 00:10:34.621
if you think about it, like when people discovered photography, they must've been blown away to like own a piece of the world on a piece of paper, it's kind of crazy.
00:10:34.621 --> 00:10:40.442
And I think, that's what's really incredible that you get to own the world and you get to own it through your own eyes.
00:10:40.442 --> 00:10:51.731
So you create or you see the world in a certain way and that perspective and that point of view is then collected onto this piece of paper or like image you can own and.
00:10:51.731 --> 00:10:56.491
And it explains so much often and it's really exciting.
00:10:56.491 --> 00:11:01.721
So, and then of course, looking at other people's work is really crucial and collaboration.
00:11:01.721 --> 00:11:27.525
you know, my kids, my eldest is now 17 and he's in art school and, I always say to him, the one thing that I think is really crucial in art school is like to collaborate and to learn from each other and to do trial and error and to make a million horrible pieces of work and then a good piece of work, because what we often don't realize is once you go into the world, it's a lot harder to play around.
00:11:27.525 --> 00:11:29.135
Like then you have to make a living.
00:11:29.135 --> 00:11:34.489
You have to have an apartment, you have to like move out of your mom's or whatever, or not.
00:11:34.489 --> 00:11:38.389
and so I'm like, well, really just.
00:11:38.389 --> 00:11:44.514
Go crazy in art school, like really make every, don't, don't get drunk and lie on the floor for the whole two years.
00:11:44.514 --> 00:11:46.345
That's not going to get you anywhere.
00:11:46.345 --> 00:11:53.245
I mean, you really should just like play a lot and, try things and experiment and collaborate.
00:11:53.245 --> 00:11:58.904
And be inspired, often the best ideas, we know this from people who have made it big in the world.
00:11:58.904 --> 00:12:04.821
They're usually inspired by other things, like cross pollination and little ideas that come into their ether.
00:12:04.821 --> 00:12:09.441
and I'm sure I've been influenced along the way by lots of, books I've seen and people I've met.
00:12:09.441 --> 00:12:13.900
And so I think that's really important in the sense of like the art school.
00:12:13.900 --> 00:12:19.380
And it's so much fun, like everyone getting together to discuss and make art.
00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:28.041
Which in the grander scheme of things, like in the world, art isn't considered in a par with like being a doctor or a lawyer.
00:12:28.041 --> 00:12:31.510
But in art school, you are the doctor and the lawyer, right?
00:12:31.510 --> 00:12:47.874
Because It's like the place it's like where you're considered like the big shot in art school is like the person who makes great art, and so I think that's a really good place to get confident and, so I did quite a few years in art school and, but not everybody needs it.
00:12:47.874 --> 00:12:49.474
You know, my partner's more of a like.
00:12:49.474 --> 00:12:51.328
He teaches himself more.
00:12:51.328 --> 00:12:56.379
He's like self taught and he's a bit more of a loner, but he's also an animator.
00:12:56.379 --> 00:12:57.379
They tend to be loners.
00:12:57.379 --> 00:12:58.855
Exactly.
00:12:58.855 --> 00:13:00.332
It's
00:13:00.332 --> 00:13:02.969
a different type of person.
00:13:02.969 --> 00:13:04.719
And not everybody loves, the art school.
00:13:04.719 --> 00:13:06.548
And I don't think you can teach art.
00:13:06.548 --> 00:13:13.773
Like I think you can teach everything that goes around it, like history of art, like the techniques, you can like help you.
00:13:13.773 --> 00:13:31.638
People hone in on what they're talented at and like the critiques are really useful to like figure stuff out to know what you want to stand up for and but in another way I think you should really follow what you love and what you know is best because People feel more comfortable with what they already know and have already seen.
00:13:31.638 --> 00:13:38.648
Which means that anything that's avant garde or forward thinking is at first going to be treated with suspicion.
00:13:38.648 --> 00:13:41.937
Like people aren't going to always fall in love with it straight away.
00:13:41.937 --> 00:13:45.018
just like a song that's like a bit more catchy, right?
00:13:45.018 --> 00:13:50.498
And you like love it straight away, but then the weird ones you really fall in love with, but it takes time sometimes.
00:13:51.028 --> 00:13:52.648
So then let me ask you, a question.
00:13:52.648 --> 00:13:57.620
This isn't really related to the podcast, but, do you think that art can exist then in a vacuum?
00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:03.961
if we can't teach art, but we have to teach essentially, it sounds like the self expression and show art in the past.
00:14:03.961 --> 00:14:10.937
Do you think that art can be created without, oh, but I guess that's hard because I mean, you can see everything as a form of art.
00:14:10.937 --> 00:14:13.018
So you can get inspiration everywhere.
00:14:13.018 --> 00:14:13.477
I don't know.
00:14:13.477 --> 00:14:14.587
I'll let you answer that question.
00:14:14.587 --> 00:14:16.477
Do you think that art can exist in a vacuum?
00:14:16.477 --> 00:14:16.508
Yeah.
00:14:17.148 --> 00:14:17.957
I don't know.
00:14:17.957 --> 00:14:23.837
I mean, I think part of the joy of art is there's a few stages in the joy of art.
00:14:23.837 --> 00:14:27.048
One of it, often it cuts, starts from pain.
00:14:27.048 --> 00:14:27.957
That's the weird thing.
00:14:27.957 --> 00:14:42.028
So it will start from some pain or discomfort, usually move into like self expression and self therapy, but then there's this other bit where you connect to others through it and they see it and they see you through it.
00:14:42.028 --> 00:14:49.524
and you get to change something in the world or in the way people see you or others or, and I feel that that is quite a big part of art.
00:14:49.524 --> 00:15:15.561
So I would say that in the vacuum, you might get some satisfaction, but I think there's a huge part of it that's in the connection and then in taking it out into the world, Other people connect to you that like your art and people see it and feel better looking at your art and you can change misconceptions like with iMama changing the way people looked at motherhood in the arts, so I think it's a huge bit and it would be a shame, to lose that.
00:15:15.561 --> 00:15:24.480
But of course, if you take a pile of like sticks in the forest and do a little sculpture and nobody sees it, that's still art, right?
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:32.066
I mean, maybe only the squirrels will enjoy it, but, you know, they need art too.
00:15:32.066 --> 00:15:50.105
So, and by the way, I think you can teach art in the sense that I think just through someone going through a process of failure and success, trial and error, collaboration and like solitude, learning tools, honing in on their vision, that is teaching something.
00:15:50.105 --> 00:16:04.889
Like that's teaching a lot, it's the only thing I think you can't teach probably is that something that, that either perspective you have on the world or that spark of inspiration that you'd probably need to get in there.
00:16:04.889 --> 00:16:05.149
But.
00:16:05.149 --> 00:16:08.198
Possibly you could, it could rub off on you from others as well.
00:16:08.198 --> 00:16:12.399
Like maybe you go in and you're a bit like, I don't know, but then you get the bug, right?
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.068
you get into it more deeply.
00:16:14.068 --> 00:16:16.905
So I think you can change as a person too.
00:16:16.905 --> 00:16:18.485
I think there's that option.
00:16:18.485 --> 00:16:20.605
we're not just one line, right?
00:16:20.605 --> 00:16:23.306
We have an arc. So I think it can be taught.
00:16:23.306 --> 00:16:30.735
I just feel like there's probably some bit that you come with and that is your own point of view on the world, your own take on the world, your own eye.
00:16:30.735 --> 00:16:32.936
and that's what makes it unique.
00:16:32.936 --> 00:16:34.336
that's what makes it special.
00:16:34.505 --> 00:16:34.985
Yeah.
00:16:34.985 --> 00:16:35.446
Yeah.
00:16:35.446 --> 00:16:38.206
So then, let's kind of, switch gears here.
00:16:38.206 --> 00:16:43.206
I could talk about this stuff all day and it's really exciting, but, I know that I have you for a limited time.
00:16:43.206 --> 00:16:45.775
So, I want to talk about, your.
00:16:45.775 --> 00:16:47.359
Project iMama.
00:16:47.359 --> 00:16:53.269
In your own words, can you tell me like what was the seed that had started this whole project?
00:16:53.269 --> 00:16:57.288
Maybe it wasn't fully formed yet, but what had got this ball rolling?
00:17:30.048 --> 00:17:43.053
Well, it was 2020 and we all know what happened in 2020 because we were all in the same little blue planet that was suddenly unified by having this virus, this, COVID, epidemic that broke out.
00:17:43.053 --> 00:17:45.773
And we were all going into lockdown.
00:17:45.773 --> 00:17:47.313
I live in Bristol, UK.
00:17:47.313 --> 00:17:48.084
We were at home.
00:17:48.084 --> 00:17:50.354
I had two kids at that time.
00:17:50.354 --> 00:17:54.743
They were, I have two kids, but at that time they were five and, 15, maybe I have a big gap.
00:17:54.743 --> 00:18:08.144
So, one of them was five, the little one, when lockdown started, I was like everyone else, like quite scared and like, Oh my God, is this the end of humanity, you know, and I do what I usually do.
00:18:08.144 --> 00:18:09.854
You know, I was a bit sick at the beginning.
00:18:09.854 --> 00:18:15.090
I might've had COVID and when I started recovering, I picked up the camera and that usually.
00:18:15.090 --> 00:18:19.546
gives me some power back to document and makes me feel like things are going to be okay.
00:18:19.546 --> 00:18:22.485
Because if you're thinking about art, you're probably not dying.
00:18:22.485 --> 00:18:25.128
usually there's like, you're going to be okay.
00:18:25.128 --> 00:18:31.128
So, you know, as document, it might be a false reassurance, by the way, but it is reassuring.
00:18:31.128 --> 00:18:35.459
Because obviously, like a photojournalist, might think that and that might not be the case.
00:18:35.459 --> 00:19:00.567
Anyway, I was documenting my kids in the garden and documenting light on the wall and little things to bring me joy and to connect to the world and try and make sense of everything that was a bit bonkers, I'm lucky to have a garden and, so I was taking these pictures and I was scrolling on social media because I'm also a filmmaker and I work with my partner with a directing duo called Kani and Saul, uh, Sulky Bunnies, our studio.
00:19:00.567 --> 00:19:05.397
And I was scrolling on social media and seeing my feed.
00:19:05.397 --> 00:19:06.597
I follow a lot of women.
00:19:06.597 --> 00:19:10.207
I follow a lot of the female gays because that's what interests me.
00:19:10.207 --> 00:19:13.647
And I guess I feel like that's my people, right?
00:19:13.647 --> 00:19:16.917
Like a lot of visions and visuals made by women.
00:19:16.917 --> 00:19:19.951
and traditionally in art school, you're seeing the male gays a lot.
00:19:19.951 --> 00:19:23.067
So for me, it was like more fresh and, more personal.
00:19:23.067 --> 00:19:40.780
And so, I'm looking at all these images and literally on my feed, nearly like a curated feed, I just see endless images of like these peepholes into homes worldwide, taken by women and mothers onto their own families, like an introspective look.
00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:58.221
at motherhood, home, and family within pandemic, like the head of a child, a mushed biscuit, crushed biscuit on the floor, a mother holding a child, a self portrait of a mother breastfeeding, a child having a tantrum, all of these things that we know so well.
00:19:58.221 --> 00:20:03.505
I never deemed that interesting, but I was finding this portfolio fascinating.
00:20:03.505 --> 00:20:07.605
Like I couldn't look away because I was going through the same thing myself.
00:20:07.605 --> 00:20:10.286
So I'm a mom and I'm a photographer.
00:20:10.286 --> 00:20:25.082
So that, that cross section of my artist self and my mother self had this cross section and I had never really, I mean, I always photograph my kids, but I hadn't sent it out into the world that much and, or used it.
00:20:25.082 --> 00:20:32.752
And the art world is usually quite exclusive and doesn't really deem family life as interesting in the art world or whatever.
00:20:32.752 --> 00:20:36.040
I would kind of leave it at home, like a separate identity.
00:20:36.040 --> 00:20:46.097
But here, what I was seeing was all these photojournalists, all these art photographers, all these fine art, women and artists were photographing the same thing.
00:20:46.097 --> 00:20:47.687
They were all like, they had no choice.
00:20:47.687 --> 00:20:49.538
They were all turning the camera inwardly.
00:20:49.538 --> 00:20:52.927
So usually they would be like on a job or going here or there.
00:20:52.927 --> 00:20:57.258
And suddenly they were all forced to do that kind of, look at themselves.
00:20:57.258 --> 00:20:58.837
And I was like, wow.
00:20:58.837 --> 00:21:08.177
this is so incredible, this body of work that's by, professional photographers looking at something that was deemed uninteresting in history.
00:21:08.177 --> 00:21:15.778
Boring, mundane, even like, oh, you're just a mom, oh, you're just a dad, oh, boring, ho ho, boring, boring.
00:21:15.778 --> 00:21:22.873
or like not art worthy or whatever, suddenly I was like, Oh my God, this looks like really powerful work.
00:21:22.873 --> 00:21:30.742
And I wonder if anyone's ever collected it, and then did some research and was like, well, there's one book from 2013 called Home Truths.
00:21:30.742 --> 00:21:32.707
with very few artists.
00:21:32.707 --> 00:21:37.557
It's a good book, but like well known fine artists, very minimal, in number.
00:21:37.557 --> 00:21:39.387
And I couldn't find anything else.
00:21:39.387 --> 00:21:42.207
there's family of man, that's mostly taken by men.
00:21:42.207 --> 00:21:43.768
There's a few mothers in there.
00:21:43.768 --> 00:21:48.718
There's a few women photographers in there, but it's like, it was taken in a time where it was impossible.
00:21:48.718 --> 00:22:04.798
And I was like, What if we'd collect all of this work and make a platform and a book and in history, like a thousand years from now, people could pick up a book and say, Oh, this is what motherhood looked like in 2020.
00:22:04.798 --> 00:22:14.229
Because we don't have that for world wars or other big events, major events, famine or war or the world wars or the Holocaust.
00:22:14.229 --> 00:22:20.148
You don't have those bodies of work because there weren't enough women who are mothers who are empowered enough to be photographers.
00:22:20.148 --> 00:22:25.729
And the men were usually pointing their lenses outwardly because that's where the interesting things were deemed.
00:22:25.729 --> 00:22:31.979
To be like outward, nobody, like often very few people turn their lens inwardly.
00:22:31.979 --> 00:22:36.418
So then I started collecting it, on Instagram slowly.
00:22:36.418 --> 00:22:38.538
And, the rest is history.
00:22:38.538 --> 00:22:39.918
it just dawned on me.
00:22:39.918 --> 00:22:45.232
I couldn't believe this body of work didn't exist because parenthood and motherhood has existed forever.
00:22:45.232 --> 00:22:47.363
since the dawn of time.
00:22:47.363 --> 00:22:53.262
And since photography existed, obviously they, at first they weren't any women or very few women.
00:22:53.262 --> 00:22:57.903
They were actually few in quite from the start, but I think they just weren't enough.
00:22:57.903 --> 00:23:06.772
And then I found out, the world at 2020 was such that there were so many women photographers and a lot of these women photographers happened to be mothers.
00:23:06.772 --> 00:23:10.692
So it's not like I'm saying all these mothers were taking pictures.
00:23:10.692 --> 00:23:12.742
It was, first of all, these were photographers.
00:23:12.742 --> 00:23:19.137
Who happen to be mothers, who happen to be looking at a subject, which is motherhood.
00:23:19.137 --> 00:23:37.807
And because there's so many stories and pictures of motherhood that are unrealistic, whether it's influencers or culture or commercials, all telling us false things and misconceptions about parenthood and motherhood that make us feel bad or shamed or just don't feel truthful.
00:23:37.807 --> 00:23:41.202
I was like, What's better than telling your own story?
00:23:41.202 --> 00:23:43.163
these are women and mothers telling their own story.
00:23:43.163 --> 00:23:44.863
And that's, that's a huge power.
00:23:44.863 --> 00:23:46.722
that's the ultimate telling your
00:23:46.722 --> 00:23:47.492
own story.
00:23:47.492 --> 00:23:56.153
So then why, let me ask, where did the decision come to curate the photos of others rather than sharing your story?
00:23:56.894 --> 00:23:58.563
Because I saw the potential.
00:23:58.563 --> 00:24:00.364
I think it was bigger than me.
00:24:00.364 --> 00:24:05.132
I think it was like the first time that I was like, you know, my kid's five.
00:24:05.132 --> 00:24:06.682
I'm quite desperate at home.
00:24:06.682 --> 00:24:07.971
I'm kind of, in this look.
00:24:07.971 --> 00:24:09.861
But our film was like put on hold a bit.
00:24:09.861 --> 00:24:12.392
Our film work was like on slow motion.
00:24:12.392 --> 00:24:16.718
And they just saw this little gap where I could look out of my own bubble.
00:24:16.718 --> 00:24:33.697
out of my own comfort zone and be like, wow, maybe I could do something that actually had some meaning, not just about my own existence, but for others and other women of my tribe, parents, women who are artists and mothers are my tribe in a way.
00:24:33.697 --> 00:24:35.687
this was a perfect storm, right?
00:24:35.687 --> 00:24:50.617
Everyone's home, there's pandemic, there's a million photographer women and mothers now because we're sort of advanced supposedly in humanity and everyone's like doing self portraiture and there's this like beautiful portfolio appearing.
00:24:50.617 --> 00:24:54.916
And by the way, to me, beautiful doesn't mean perfect or like happy.
00:24:54.916 --> 00:24:59.557
Like I feel you get happy by sharing truthful images, not happy images.
00:24:59.557 --> 00:25:07.382
So I was looking for like the light and dark, the duality in motherhood, the beauty within the details and the hardship.
00:25:07.382 --> 00:25:12.230
So no fake, influencer type content, which that we had loads of, right?
00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:13.360
Like there's loads of that.
00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:14.070
Yeah.
00:25:14.070 --> 00:25:17.441
And then, you know, I just, I just, I've never had this before in my life.
00:25:17.441 --> 00:25:23.933
And again, this sounds like on the verge of religious or but I really felt a calling because I felt, obliged.
00:25:23.933 --> 00:25:25.677
I knew how this could be.
00:25:25.677 --> 00:25:27.718
I knew how the work should be and could be.
00:25:27.718 --> 00:25:28.968
I saw the potential.
00:25:28.968 --> 00:25:32.798
And I thought if I walk away from this, some, It might never be made.
00:25:32.798 --> 00:25:35.538
sometimes when you see stuff, you can't unsee it.
00:25:35.538 --> 00:25:39.971
And then it's like, it was my calling to make it and I knew I could make it well.
00:25:39.971 --> 00:25:41.000
And I just saw it.
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.711
I had a vision of what this book would be, what this platform would be.
00:25:43.711 --> 00:25:45.644
And I, I just knew I could do it.
00:25:45.644 --> 00:25:49.134
And so I just started trying to make it, you know, not really knowing.
00:25:49.134 --> 00:25:50.375
where it would lead.
00:25:50.375 --> 00:26:02.755
But sometimes making that one first step is the hardest, like naming a platform, I'm on a project, owning it, and then saying to some friends of mine, do you want to feature on this idea I have and I'll tag you?
00:26:02.755 --> 00:26:04.596
And they're like, yeah, sure, whatever.
00:26:04.596 --> 00:26:09.262
you know, then you've got like 10 frames, little frames on the grid.
00:26:09.262 --> 00:26:10.962
And that's like the beginning.
00:26:10.962 --> 00:26:21.418
and then in a way the project takes its own life, like from then on, it's not really that you control the narrative, you can push it, you can try and make it one thing or another, but it's also got its own life.
00:26:21.418 --> 00:26:23.269
Because you've put it out there.
00:26:23.908 --> 00:26:27.673
Let's talk about that then, because you knew that you wanted to collect these images.
00:26:27.673 --> 00:26:34.212
so you had started posting them on Instagram with the hopes of attracting attention, so that others would start to do the same.
00:26:34.212 --> 00:26:39.272
But you said that you knew that this was going to become a project, this was going to become a book.
00:26:39.272 --> 00:26:43.462
So you knew from the beginning that you were going to have to start curating photos.
00:26:43.462 --> 00:26:51.443
And, when I had just checked right before our interview, there was more than 65, 000 images on Instagram that are tagged with iMamaProject.
00:26:51.443 --> 00:26:54.023
But in your book, there's only 228 photos.
00:26:54.023 --> 00:27:00.624
So talk to me about had mentioned there that it's not necessarily your story to tell, it's the story of others.
00:27:00.624 --> 00:27:06.080
But when you're curating this book, this series of images, how do you do that?
00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:10.250
And do you try to separate yourself from that decision making process?
00:27:10.250 --> 00:27:10.780
Or is that?
00:27:10.780 --> 00:27:13.628
The piece of art that you're putting into the project.
00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:16.080
first of all, I think I found a new talent.
00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:20.260
You know how we said we're all beginners, and this goes together well with your podcast.
00:27:20.260 --> 00:27:23.451
But I was a, a newbie curator.
00:27:23.451 --> 00:27:25.790
Like I was a beginner as a curator.
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:31.060
So even though I'd done film and photography for years, And I had a good eye.
00:27:31.060 --> 00:27:32.330
I knew I had a good eye.
00:27:32.330 --> 00:27:32.810
Right.
00:27:32.810 --> 00:27:37.270
And I had a really good sense of what motherhood was because I am one.
00:27:37.270 --> 00:27:41.090
and I have a good sense of what a good photograph is because I'm a photographer.
00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:45.923
And, I knew what was missing from the world because I basically made the book that I was missing.
00:27:45.923 --> 00:27:46.364
Right.
00:27:46.364 --> 00:27:49.634
So I say it's for everyone, but it's also really for me.
00:27:49.634 --> 00:27:50.763
Like I am everyone.
00:27:50.763 --> 00:27:51.134
Right.
00:27:51.134 --> 00:28:07.192
Because, I'm just I'm filling the gap of that invisible book that was meant to be there but isn't there, of what is motherhood today through the eyes of artists and women who are photographers, looking at their own motherhood, like telling their own story.
00:28:07.192 --> 00:28:16.327
And when I curated it, I just think that we should, women and mothers, And fathers and carers have to support each other, like women elevating other women.
00:28:16.327 --> 00:28:30.883
And I think if you're doing something that makes other women feel bad, nevermind the whole thing of like turning your life into an online circus and like constantly showcasing kids and all of, you know, that's a whole other thing, that I don't really want to get into, but of course is an issue.
00:28:30.883 --> 00:28:36.093
I just think I don't want to be involved in something that makes other people feel they're less, uh, Good.
00:28:36.093 --> 00:28:39.103
You know, at caring because of it.
00:28:39.103 --> 00:28:51.522
And I think that, I hope that through this book and this project, women feel that motherhood can be more normalized to have motherhood that's imperfect and fatherhood that's imperfect, but like full of love.
00:28:51.522 --> 00:28:51.928
You know?
00:28:51.928 --> 00:28:56.699
I think we relate better to imperfections because humanness is imperfect.
00:28:56.699 --> 00:29:00.568
I think they just popped out at me from Instagram, to me a good image is.
00:29:00.568 --> 00:29:18.810
On one hand, like it needs good lighting, a good point of view, like we said, like I need to feel that person's point of view, what their world is, so like a peephole into their world, something intimate, something with maybe nice lighting, maybe something surprising or shocking.
00:29:18.810 --> 00:29:20.803
Definitely not the obvious.
00:29:20.803 --> 00:29:23.973
So if I've seen it loads before, I don't want to curate it.
00:29:23.973 --> 00:29:26.431
What I want to curate is the unseen.
00:29:26.431 --> 00:29:32.080
So basically I'm trying to curate something that's been unseen up until now and that I see.
00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:40.894
So it's like I have this kind of special vision, x ray vision, into what visibility of motherhood should be, but isn't.
00:29:40.894 --> 00:29:43.284
And That's what I curated.
00:29:43.284 --> 00:29:45.875
So also it's a balance of like light and dark.
00:29:45.875 --> 00:29:48.644
So, light and dark is a big part of photography.
00:29:48.644 --> 00:29:53.404
It's really important in how you frame a photograph, shoot it.
00:29:53.404 --> 00:30:06.234
and also in the content, I wanted to make sure I had joy and hardship, disappointment, spillage, but also like beauty, skin.
00:30:06.234 --> 00:30:17.706
Touch, softness, connection, and I didn't want to scare people away by portraying motherhood as this kind of insane thing, which it is on some level.
00:30:17.706 --> 00:30:19.037
right.
00:30:19.037 --> 00:30:27.247
So, and then on the other hand, it's also this magic thing where you, you have a being and you nurture it and it's hard, but anything good.
00:30:27.247 --> 00:30:28.116
is hard.
00:30:28.116 --> 00:30:29.767
Anything worthwhile is going to be hard.
00:30:29.767 --> 00:30:46.663
But I think by portraying motherhood as like this kind of fantasy, Madonna images and fantasy, like I'm baking apple pies and juggling and holding seven kids while wearing white, when we're doing an injustice to women, we're faking it.
00:30:46.663 --> 00:31:00.512
And when they finally reach it, and to fathers too, and to anyone who's caring in the parent, We're creating this fake world where then when you enter parenthood, you feel like you're doing it badly because, or you're doing something wrong because it doesn't look like that, right?
00:31:00.512 --> 00:31:03.653
Because it doesn't look like the fantasy that people have sold you.
00:31:03.653 --> 00:31:12.257
But you know, just like we know love stories aren't Hollywood, parenthood isn't Hollywood or influencers Pampers commercials either.
00:31:12.257 --> 00:31:15.846
And very soon I realized I wanted it to be global and inclusive.
00:31:15.846 --> 00:31:20.007
So I knew I can have it with just women who looked like me and thought like me.
00:31:20.007 --> 00:31:22.706
I wanted it to be women from all around the world.
00:31:22.706 --> 00:31:34.970
I wanted it to be diverse and I wanted it to have all the narratives like, adoption and fostering and single mom and, gay couples and miscarriage and abortion and, all the different narratives.
00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:39.461
that lead up to parenting and that are parenting to be as inclusive as possible.
00:31:39.461 --> 00:31:46.575
and also I wanted to be as inclusive as possible in the sense that I said to anyone, you can join if you consider yourself a mama.
00:31:46.575 --> 00:31:48.575
And I used mama as a term of endearment.
00:31:48.575 --> 00:31:52.615
So that any carer who lives with kids could consider themselves a mama.
00:31:52.615 --> 00:31:54.545
You don't have to give birth necessarily.
00:31:54.545 --> 00:31:57.206
And anyone who considered themselves a photographer.
00:31:57.206 --> 00:31:59.236
So again, I didn't ask for credentials.
00:31:59.236 --> 00:32:04.666
I didn't ask for exhibitions or resume because I think we need to level the playing field.
00:32:04.666 --> 00:32:09.946
And I think women have enough penalties as it is, and parents have enough penalties as it is.
00:32:09.946 --> 00:32:23.037
And so to help women advance in this really tricky time of being parents to young kids, I included women who were well known as well as unknown, which is like a big curve ball in the art community, like for curation.
00:32:23.037 --> 00:32:30.289
It's not considered, a thing that you do, because obviously if you're into sales, you want to do well established, photographers.
00:32:30.289 --> 00:32:32.420
but I had nothing to lose.
00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:38.899
Like something when you have nothing to lose, you can take bigger risks because I wasn't a curator and I wasn't making any money.
00:32:38.899 --> 00:32:47.291
So, by not exchanging any money with these women, not making any, and not asking for any, I had complete creative freedom.
00:32:47.291 --> 00:32:50.172
The only thing that was missing was me earning the trust of these women.
00:32:50.172 --> 00:32:57.461
So obviously when you're dealing with the most intimate photography that women can give out into the world, they like to know that you're a mama too.
00:32:57.461 --> 00:32:59.361
They like to know that you're a photographer too.
00:32:59.361 --> 00:33:02.451
They like to see your curation, style.
00:33:02.451 --> 00:33:07.791
One of my favorite images is one by Julie Rene Jones from America.
00:33:07.791 --> 00:33:11.971
And it's an image that was in National Geographic that showcased the project.
00:33:11.971 --> 00:33:16.721
And it's just a hand reaching out from a crib into a beam of light.
00:33:16.721 --> 00:33:19.231
And the crib and the room are quite dark.
00:33:19.231 --> 00:33:22.034
And the light is like hand is flexed.
00:33:22.034 --> 00:33:34.847
Like a zombie hand or like when a baby falls and their hand is like, ding, like really straight and stiff and all you can see is that hand and it's in this beam of light and I love that image.
00:33:34.847 --> 00:33:43.347
I just love that image because not only did it feel to me like humanity trying to reach for the light in COVID, trying to survive.
00:33:43.347 --> 00:33:48.807
It's also about that little baby that all our world is in that little crib in the dark.
00:33:48.807 --> 00:33:49.944
And then that.
00:33:49.944 --> 00:33:52.315
beam of light just illuminates that hand.
00:33:52.315 --> 00:33:55.311
and it's just a detail, you know, it lets you fill in the rest.
00:33:55.311 --> 00:33:59.478
it leaves a lot to the imagination, which I think is, it's really crucial too.
00:33:59.657 --> 00:34:03.377
That's a lot of the fun of art is leaving something up to the imagination for sure.
00:34:03.377 --> 00:34:04.927
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:04.927 --> 00:34:09.512
I'm interested at, as a photographer, know, that a great photo is more than the sum of its settings.
00:34:09.512 --> 00:34:12.012
We know that the story is like so important here.
00:34:12.012 --> 00:34:15.568
As a photographer, you do have to know the technical.
00:34:15.568 --> 00:34:16.932
side of photography.
00:34:16.932 --> 00:34:26.657
So when you were looking at these images, how much of that played a role in, into the selections that you put into the book versus just the story, just the moment.
00:34:27.137 --> 00:34:40.983
Well, because I knew I wanted it to be a book and a platform by photographers, by professional photographers, I'd seen projects that had started in pandemic that were for non professionals, people on iPhones, documenting, right?
00:34:40.983 --> 00:34:46.793
But that's not what I had in mind because at the end of the day, I do have a certain aesthetics.
00:34:46.793 --> 00:34:48.460
The professional photographers.
00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:58.128
I like people who shoot on medium format on DSLRs, I think the iPhone is really useful when you're a mom and you want to just document your every day.
00:34:58.128 --> 00:35:04.393
But I think if you're going to create an iconic One specific image that's really powerful.
00:35:04.393 --> 00:35:10.273
You're going to want to use a better tool saying that the book and the project have iPhone images.
00:35:10.273 --> 00:35:12.514
So I broke my own rules.
00:35:12.514 --> 00:35:17.304
I made them and then I broke them, but what I tried to do was get the best images.
00:35:17.304 --> 00:35:20.574
I could find that portrayed motherhood.
00:35:20.574 --> 00:35:22.523
as a complex issue.
00:35:22.523 --> 00:35:26.188
So, you have to, I call it the honey, like visual pleasure is the honey.
00:35:26.188 --> 00:35:34.317
You want to draw all these little fireflies to the honey and the light first, and then you can dish out any old story you want to dish out.
00:35:34.317 --> 00:35:42.358
People will swallow anything if it's covered in honey, just like that, paracetamol pill or medicine that you'll cover in honey, right?
00:35:42.358 --> 00:35:55.422
So I feel that the duality of I Mama and the hard, more truthful tales that are in there sometimes, Still need to be kind of wrapped up in this photographic aesthetic language, right?
00:35:55.422 --> 00:35:57.523
Because we're still dealing with an art form, right?
00:35:57.523 --> 00:36:00.108
and again, I never asked for credentials.
00:36:00.108 --> 00:36:01.038
I never knew.
00:36:01.038 --> 00:36:09.679
I think your eye can often tell what is like a casual snapshot that's meant for the home and for your own photo book.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:13.068
And what is something more iconic that you've managed to capture?
00:36:13.068 --> 00:36:17.773
I was fully aware that touching on childhood and motherhood.
00:36:17.773 --> 00:36:25.340
on the internet, which is the wild west and not the perfect place for any portfolio, you know, definitely not for women.
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.561
we got removed and censored a lot.
00:36:27.561 --> 00:36:32.690
That's a whole other story by Instagram for showing breastfeeding images and other things.
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:37.181
So I was just very aware that I didn't want to show kids in full nudity.
00:36:37.181 --> 00:36:44.311
I would show skin and I would show suggestions of intimacy, that was just my mother instinct, that's the interesting thing.
00:36:44.311 --> 00:36:49.811
I just showed work that I would probably be okay with myself and respected that.
00:36:49.811 --> 00:36:58.585
And, as the trust grew between the photographers who were submitting and myself, as my confidence grew, there were friendships that formed.
00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:23.974
So the first thousand women who joined, I probably know them all personally or the first 500, because we would, chat to each other on DMs and connect in lockdown and, like this kind of delicate spider web of eyes and hearts all over the world, interconnecting and sending these images and forming this current undercurrent of the story of motherhood, and inspiring each other, you know, and being inspired by each other's images.
00:37:23.974 --> 00:37:27.713
And so in a way, that was an art school for us.
00:37:27.713 --> 00:37:28.858
in a sense,
00:37:28.858 --> 00:37:29.579
you
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.739
know, getting together like that.
00:37:32.058 --> 00:37:41.865
Now, of course, yeah, being able to share images, talk about those photos, and, come up with new ideas is, I mean, for me, that's where I found biggest benefit of film school.
00:37:41.865 --> 00:37:43.945
It wasn't so much learning the technical abilities.
00:37:43.945 --> 00:37:45.235
I think anybody can do that.
00:37:45.235 --> 00:37:48.476
But as you were saying earlier, the collaboration is, is it.
00:37:48.476 --> 00:37:49.835
You don't have to go to school for that.
00:37:49.835 --> 00:37:55.706
If you have a way of doing that on your own, you can get a lot of the same same output.
00:37:55.706 --> 00:37:56.775
Absolutely.
00:37:56.775 --> 00:38:00.835
And this will be my last question here for you, because I know that we are we're officially over our time.
00:38:00.835 --> 00:38:07.228
But when you have these different steps when you have all of these people who are giving their opinion.
00:38:07.228 --> 00:38:09.208
How do you know that you've reached the finish line?
00:38:09.208 --> 00:38:10.389
How do you know that you're ready?
00:38:10.389 --> 00:38:12.938
You put the stamp on it and you say, send it to print.
00:38:12.938 --> 00:38:14.048
We are done.
00:38:14.048 --> 00:38:18.028
Because it seems to me like that process could just go on forever.
00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:18.778
Yeah.
00:38:18.778 --> 00:38:21.099
I mean, that was one of the toughest bits.
00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:23.228
I think, first of all, you have a deadline, right?
00:38:23.228 --> 00:38:31.396
So I think, knowing that we wanted the book out at a certain time, the publication was waiting because they also don't forget the publication.
00:38:31.396 --> 00:38:38.706
Usually they gave me total creative freedom to know if they're a German publication, but they also have a veto.
00:38:38.706 --> 00:38:42.356
So they can like look at some images or try and influence you one way or another.
00:38:42.356 --> 00:38:45.177
If they think it's going to harm the book or that they don't.
00:38:45.177 --> 00:38:46.552
CI to I with you.
00:38:46.552 --> 00:38:51.251
I was very lucky that I got to really make the book I wanted with the text I wanted.
00:38:51.251 --> 00:38:58.782
it's got a few interesting texts in there about motherhood and about my process and also some quotes that I really wanted in there.
00:38:58.782 --> 00:39:22.965
But I think in the end, also because I also had this vision from the start and it had this flavor, the Mama Gaye's had this flavor that I kind of knew, Was this flavor of the mama gaze that was unseen and this book that I was looking for in a way and it's quite hard to describe but it's built up of all these pieces, all of these things that I've mentioned before the imperfections the duality dark and light.
00:39:22.965 --> 00:39:26.788
I think when I got as close as I could.
00:39:26.788 --> 00:39:30.286
Then at some point I was like, well, I also have to know.
00:39:30.286 --> 00:39:32.563
That this is the best I can do for now.
00:39:32.563 --> 00:39:34.483
this is never gonna be a perfect book.
00:39:34.483 --> 00:39:46.471
and it's either you try forever to get something iconic, but you might, it might take you five years, and by then, somebody would have made another book, or twenty books, or you wouldn't have been able to make it, or whatever.
00:39:46.471 --> 00:39:51.141
Or you make the book that you can make now, and I was very intent on making it within the year.
00:39:51.141 --> 00:40:05.726
once I pitched the book project because I, knew it was a contemporary, urgent topic, with, abortion rights in the States and paid leave rights being threatened and all these issues, expensive childcare all over the world and like women's rights and data.
00:40:05.726 --> 00:40:12.925
It's like a hot topic and really important for change, but I feel like you can't empower the invisible.
00:40:12.925 --> 00:40:16.135
Like first you need visibility and then you can empower something.
00:40:16.135 --> 00:40:17.905
It was just a version.
00:40:17.905 --> 00:40:23.996
In the end I had to like, again, give myself permission to say, this is the best version of the book I can get to.
00:40:23.996 --> 00:40:31.315
And once I changed my mind a million times and fought for things I was passionate about, some images I was in love with, right.
00:40:31.315 --> 00:40:38.226
So I'd fight for, and nothing could change my mind, but some images I would fight for, and they'd be like, nah, this is too much or bloody or whatever.
00:40:38.226 --> 00:40:49.478
I'd like, so sometimes like how much you're willing to fight for something is also your parameter or like your assessment on like how important it is, because when you're tired, you're like, okay, I'll just fight for that, but I won't fight for that.
00:40:49.478 --> 00:40:51.318
and you have to do a compromise.
00:40:51.318 --> 00:41:01.663
And so, It just like, you know, the graphic designer put pressure on me in the publication close it up and I had to just face the music and be like, okay, this is it.
00:41:01.663 --> 00:41:05.974
And of course, as soon as I shut it, I was like, Oh God, I forgot that mom.
00:41:05.974 --> 00:41:08.083
Oh God, that image could have been amazing in there.
00:41:08.083 --> 00:41:11.994
And then when I went back to the long list, I was like, Oh God, I would live.
00:41:11.994 --> 00:41:19.699
But of course, once you have the book done, the other images that you haven't looked at for a long time, look fresher, look like more exciting.
00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:22.449
So there's also that weird thing of like the new to you.
00:41:22.449 --> 00:41:29.318
So the new to me was new when I started the book, but then it became the old, but to other people, it will be the fresh.
00:41:29.318 --> 00:41:31.933
when you make art, you have to be careful of that as well.
00:41:31.933 --> 00:41:36.284
That what you've lived with for a long time can seem like not that interesting anymore.
00:41:36.284 --> 00:41:37.353
Like you've seen it, you've seen it.
00:41:37.353 --> 00:41:38.884
It doesn't have that exciting.
00:41:38.884 --> 00:41:40.873
Oh my God, look at that image.
00:41:40.873 --> 00:41:46.193
Because you've gotten used to it, just like with love or, relationship or whatever you have to like.
00:41:46.193 --> 00:41:48.913
you have to really trust yourself in the process.
00:41:48.913 --> 00:42:01.753
And that's some of the hardest things to do is you have to, that thing of like faking it or like believing in yourself, even if you have those doubts and selling it to others, that self belief in the project in yourself.
00:42:01.753 --> 00:42:04.250
I think that's really crucial because.
00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:11.465
without it, without that fire and that self belief, things are going to knock you down along the way and throw you off course.
00:42:11.465 --> 00:42:24.782
You really have to be like absolutely certain in your drive and your mission, but be open enough to accept other people's opinions or like zigzags along the way, but again, I can only say all of this.
00:42:24.782 --> 00:42:29.393
Clever stuff in hindsight, right?
00:42:29.393 --> 00:42:39.603
Like when you're on it, when you're walking on that path, often you fall down, you get up, whatever you can't, you don't see the full, the astronaut perspective when you're in it, it's only when you zoom out.
00:42:39.603 --> 00:43:01.108
That you can like tell what it's been and learn from it, and I'm really grateful for that, for the like insane learning experience and like all these friendships and all this work that I've had the privilege of, curating and, cause it's really a collective body of work, this is a collective vision by women around the world, which is kind of a first of its kind, definitely in scope.
00:43:01.108 --> 00:43:05.748
so that's a big satisfaction knowing that and having that.
00:43:06.188 --> 00:43:08.387
Of course, as a photographer, it can be hard.
00:43:08.387 --> 00:43:13.248
We feel like this thing that we're shooting ourselves is us.
00:43:13.248 --> 00:43:17.188
And whenever there's any sort of criticism on an image, we feel like it's.
00:43:17.188 --> 00:43:21.117
so oftentimes we try not to collaborate with others.
00:43:21.117 --> 00:43:25.878
but by hearing your story here today, that is something that, that I've definitely taken away.
00:43:25.878 --> 00:43:33.967
And then I want to, do more of, because clearly your energy and this passion that you put in is you're able to magnify that when you collaborate with others.
00:43:33.967 --> 00:43:39.873
So I really appreciate you sharing everything that you have here today, but I know that listeners are thinking to themselves.
00:43:39.873 --> 00:43:41.369
I want to see some of these images.
00:43:41.369 --> 00:43:43.009
I want to know more about this project.
00:43:43.009 --> 00:43:47.748
So before I let you go, can you share where listeners can find out more about this project online?
00:43:48.558 --> 00:43:49.148
Absolutely.
00:43:49.148 --> 00:43:56.199
I mean, if you Google iMama project and iMama book, that's the obvious go to, but there is www.
00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.239
imamaproject.
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.349
com and there's links in that.
00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.538
It's a very simple website, but it's got all the links to the articles.
00:44:02.538 --> 00:44:06.778
it's been featured in National Geographic, Vogue, Wall Street Journal, Creative Review.
00:44:06.778 --> 00:44:09.099
a lot of articles over the time.
00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:13.119
And, also the Instagram, of course, which is, imamaproject.
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:13.679
com.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:23.273
all one word and the book is on Amazon and all the online usual places, that you have, it's distribution is worldwide.
00:44:23.273 --> 00:44:26.927
But again, I would love people to, look at the book.
00:44:26.927 --> 00:44:31.306
I've always asked for the bookshops to keep one of the copies open so people can look through.
00:44:31.306 --> 00:44:39.603
get the books for people you love and also get them for people who you think need to see the story of motherhood, like sometimes that's really crucial.
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I wish we could give it to every business and every birth suite at every school, maybe in the future.
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because I'd love to do more exhibitions as well and an archive of motherhood, like there's still more things we could do with it looking forward.
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There's, a lot you can get to through the images that are shared on the Instagram, if you follow the trail to these women who are photographers.
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It's kind of this endless rabbit hole, but a good rabbit hole, you know, I have like interesting, photography by women today.
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So, so that's really, really nice.
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Once again, just a big thank you to Karni for coming on and sharing everything that she did.
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I'm going to share with you my three biggest takeaways that I learned.
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picked up from this episode.
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The first one was that real is messy.
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it's easy to think that a photo has to be beautiful to stand out.
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A beautiful sunrise, a smiling, happy kid, a perfectly clean and put together house that, you know, that's not always life.
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a sunset lasts for like, one thirtieth of the day, I don't know.
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And yet, if you only looked at landscape photos, you would think that that's what the sky looked like every day, The people that we watch online, their house may be clean for only, the same one thirtieth of the day, but because that's all that they show, we assume Did they always have their stuff together?
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Always.
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You have the ability with your camera to tell a beautiful story that is rooted in honesty, even if it's a bit messy.
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Takeaway number two is just the importance of being self aware.
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This project would not have happened if some were not self aware enough to share their real world.
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being aware of.
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Where you are and recognize how it may be the same as others and how it may differ from others Can allow you to see opportunities and what you can share In way to communicate with others.
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Takeaway number two is also the importance of artistic growth Curating images has to be hard.
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you build relationships with these people see into their lives You're trusted with that and you have to decide what image best tells the story that you want to tell You And if this photo that you love from somebody who, you've built a relationship with doesn't fit the story, well, you have to know that, and you have to make the decision to stay true to your vision.
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As a filmmaker, Carney knows, but there are times where you spend the time and effort to get a shot, and then it just ends up being cut from the final product.
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It's not about being a bad shot or a waste of time.
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It's just that didn't fit the overall message that you're going for.
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And that muscle takes time to develop, it takes time to grow, but the only way to do it is to do it.
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So that is it for this week.
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thank you again for tuning in to this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by CloudSpot.
00:47:24.181 --> 00:47:27.851
Remember to grab your free CloudSpot account over at DeliverPhotos.
00:47:27.851 --> 00:47:28.250
com.
00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:31.951
And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better you will be.
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Tomorrow.
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Talk soon.
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Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast.
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Keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.
