Introducing Western Australia’s New Chief Scientist Professor Sriram

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This is the MTP Connect podcast, connecting you with the people behind the life-saving innovations driving Australia's growing life sciences sector from bench to bedside for better health and well-being.
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Mtp Connect acknowledges the traditional owners of country that this podcast is recorded on and recognises that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are Australia's first storytellers and the holders of first science knowledge.
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I would like to acknowledge that we're meeting on the lands of the Wuljuk people of the Noongar Nation and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
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And the WA Life Sciences Innovation Hub is a partnership between the state government, mtp Connect, australia's Life Sciences Innovation Accelerator, and the University of Western Australia, and we are here to do almost anything to accelerate the growth of WA's medtech, biotech, pharma sector.
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You can call us your concierge service.
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We are here to help.
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Please reach out if there's anything that we can do to support you.
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Now.
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I'm delighted to introduce our guest for tonight, WA's Chief Scientist Sharath Sriram professor .
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He's a distinguished science and research leader, an engineer and an inventor.
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He is renowned for creating and delivering breakthrough technologies in the fields of nanoelectronics, sensors and medical
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technologies.
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.
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He's been described as a research rock star and a connector of commercialisation, which I stole from his introduction at his press club address from last year.
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He's also co-founded a WA-based medtech startup called LubDub, alongside Dr Nikhlesh Bapu and Professor Guresh Davidi.
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Please join me in welcoming Professor Shreem.
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Please join me in welcoming Professor Sharam.
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All right, so the way that these conversations usually start is an introduction, and the bio that I just gave for Professor Sharam was very short, intentionally, because you are better placed to introduce yourself.
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So my first question to you is tell us a little bit about yourself and why you became a scientist.
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I'd better be careful in calling myself a scientist, because the engineers often get offended that they get all grouped under one term.
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So I'd say I'm a bit of both.
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I've been joking.
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The role should be chief scientist and engineer, like New South Wales.
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I'm married to an engineer, so he would definitely bring me.
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I think I got into what I do because I'm by nature curious, and I think you'll see threads of it throughout why I'm in policy.
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So when I see something not working I have to fix it.
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So it's a scientist engineer, a policy issue, and so that was the fundamental reason why I became a scientist slash engineer.
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How does a professor at RMIT end up as WA's chief scientist?
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And what I'm really looking for is what appealed to you about this role.
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I'll talk about the appeal first and then how or why.
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I think within WA there's a lot of potential and, in my view, untapped potential.
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So we've been tapping into the resources under the ground but not enough into the people and the ideas and the government.
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Intent is there and so sometimes it's about sharpening the strategy.
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So I think that was the real attraction, so probably right time, right place that way.
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How it happened, I really don't know.
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I think it's just a combination of factors.
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In my career I've been a researcher at the coal face, applying for grants, handling students, which I still do.
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I patented, worked with a lot of companies, done commercialization, seen things fail, seen things work and, like I said, I've been active in the national policy space trying to fix funding systems, create new funding systems and get it a bit more interconnected.
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I think those three elements probably made me a good fit for what the state is after.
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I think they are looking at how to again create a lot of commercialization activity.
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One of the other roles I've done extensively is I've built a lot of shared infrastructure.
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About 12 years back I built a $45 million semiconductor fabrication facility and the model was any early mid-career researcher coming in.
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They do not pay to use it.
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They're able to essentially be bold, do risky projects, build their track record, opportunities to then be on their own two feet.
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But it also means they are doing risky projects.
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They're not doing safe things because they're not charged.
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They try things which they normally wouldn't.
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In the last 11 years the facilities produced close to 50 patents and 35, 40 of them are by accident.
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It's not what they set out to do and I think most scientists in the room will understand.
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Usually the thing you can't explain is what actually hooks you.
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It keeps you awake and you see, that's where most opportunities.
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The straightforward line is obvious it's not as exciting.
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I would agree with that entirely.
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So West Australians, speaking as a West Australian born and bred, are renowned for our I'm going to say this politely independent spirit and our rivalry, fierce rivalry, with the East Coast and I think, hopefully well I'm assuming you have realised that that is alive and well.
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In the first three months or so that you've been in the role, have you had any particular experience of that or any reflections on you thus far of that or any reflections?
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on your thus far.
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I think that rivalry or feeling, I guess in some ways is fair, in other ways is probably not Fair, as in.
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I think in a lot of funding programs there is an inherent disadvantage being far removed from discussions, decision making and strategies being set out for funding, and I think being part of those conversations.
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In how schemes are designed, priorities are defined, are key.
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Obviously, in certain funding schemes with 10% of the population, WA gets 2.5%.
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That, surely, is not just down to quality.
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We are a risk-averse country.
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Every peer review process is risk-averse and so when it gets to the fine margins, people are going to choose a known devil over an unknown angel is what I say.
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So the people here need to create more visibility.
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So I think so, flipping it around, I always say look at what you can do for your country rather than what the country can do for you.
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Principle applies to everything.
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So what can we do better so that we are not at the disadvantage?
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So it's raising the profile of what we communicate, what we do, getting more people on peer review panels, ensuring those work robustly, bringing more people to the site to see the great work going on because, like I said, most people are not aware.
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So for every event or conference we run in Perth, combining a lot of site tools to take people to show them activity within research labs, within startups, I think it just raises the understanding.
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Oh my god, I didn't even realize all this is there.
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The close related one is generally with how busy and intense careers are.
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People don't have time to sit and promote what they do.
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Universities in that regard are pretty weak.
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Their marketing is focused on student recruitment, not in showcasing the outcomes created by their research community.
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So unless people have other access, they really don't know what's happening.
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Yeah, so it feels a little bit like a tax.
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I don't know about what everyone else feels about the geographical isolation is kind of a bit of a tax.
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Have you had any brain waves, other than the things that you've described, about how we can pay that tax on it?
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West Australians not solely bear the brunt of that tax, or do you think it just the responsibility sits with us?
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I think it could be a combination With funding agencies having accountability in review processes such that the bias doesn't exist.
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Say, for example, the National Health and Medical Research Council looking at the assessor pool to ensure there's a diversity of assessors not everyone from the East Coast would matter, and I think there were elements which were missing.
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Nhmrc have taken on board feedback already.
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They're going to revise it.
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They're going to create more accountability and visibility within the assessor pool, so people can't just give a random score, say things and walk away.
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So I think there are things you can do centrally to fix it too.
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So I've already touched on that.
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You started in June this year, so I want to ask how much time you're spending on the ground here on WA and how are you enjoying the FIFO lifestyle?
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Really well.
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So I do typically three days a week.
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Here one important aspect is emphasizing the national connections.
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So in a month I'm probably here three weeks of the month, but the other week I often spend in Canberra or Sydney driving our agenda.
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Because, like I said, unless we fix some of the central policies, we can keep talking among ourselves.
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We wouldn't see the change.
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One of the other big coordination opportunities is working with across all the chief scientists for the different states.
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Australia is too small for the states to compete against each other or we harm ourselves competing.
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There's bigger opportunity to collaborate, complement each other to actually succeed.
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Everyone doesn't need an MRNA facility, for example.
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There are different ways to tackle it.
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So I think that's just one topic, but in many fields it applies.
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So I'm trying to also use the Forum of the Australian Chiefs of Scientists to coordinate better.
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We've already had traction and maybe with the current cohort all of them are actually excited about actually doing it better, picking different topics we pursue and bring everyone on board.
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So tell us about your vision for science and technology in Western Australia and, particularly, given the topic for tonight, the role of biomedical sector in this.
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That's a big question.
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It is a big question.
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I'll keep my answer short and then you can go a bit deeper.
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No, no, no, you can talk for as long as you like.
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So one of the things is the state government did announce a 10-year science and technology plan in November last year and that was a signal of key priorities.
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The big opportunity is how we implement those priorities, how we use that to break down the typical silos between university industry.
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We shouldn't even be talking about these right.
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We should be focusing on what is the grand challenge we are trying to solve as a state, as a nation, and bring the right people in to do it.
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So I think the implementation around that is big opportunities.
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In the life sciences and I'm going to say life sciences taking both medical and agriculture, because for me the latter is a key strength in WA which is often overlooked While the medical there are strong players and emerging players.
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I think in both of them I think there needs to be better coordination.
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In some of them we miss out on leading big bids because there's a bit of coordination lacking.
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Whether it's a CRC or a big ARC center, we are partnering on all of them but we're not leading them.
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But there is potential too.
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The other big opportunity is shared facilities, so every lab or every company trying to set up small piece of equipment which they use one day a week and relying on government support to do it is not the best use of time, money or strategy.
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So the more we can actually create shared infrastructure which people use on demand and as demand grows we can actually grow that.
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I think those are the big opportunities for us as a state.
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So that sits across sectors, but particularly in medtech.
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When you have a wave of startups coming through, instead of trying to give infrastructure grants of half a million to two million to everyone, you invest it in a shared facility and have vouchers for them to access it.
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I think that would be a better way to go.
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So those are really quite practical and pragmatic visions.
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But if you think big and like, do you have any kind of ambition or vision for what you think it might be, say, three years time?
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Is there something in particular that you'd really like to look back and go?
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Yes, we, you know, cracked that nut or resolved that challenge or achieved that.
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I think the real win would be if we invest and establish capabilities which are not on a short-term timeframe.
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We shouldn't chase buzzwords.
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It has to be underpinning capabilities which will serve us whatever the new trend is.
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I mean, if you take AI, for example, that's a buzzword.
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It used to be called deep learning, it used to be called deep learning, it used to be called machine learning, neural networks, signal processing it's all the same thing.
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It's just advancements, so I think, and it all relies on processing solid mathematics.
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So I think in every field there is a base capability we need and that's what we should be training our incoming talent on the potential, people on the line through vocational education and enabling that.
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So for me, that is really what I'm after.
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Anything we invest in should have that decadal horizon, not just a short term win.
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I think there are a lot of governance challenges in how we set these up right, because it has to be a true partnership.
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It shouldn't be about growing empires and control.
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So there has to be a model where, if there is a shared facility, there is a way for anyone to be an equal partner or a percentage partner in it, that you co-locate your capabilities and people still get to use it.
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The challenge often when I work a lot with industries, they just don't know what exists.
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They don't know who to go talk to.
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Yes, you have a concierge service here for the state for one sector, but even they may not know everything which exists because there's so much opaqueness in the sector.
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So I think sometimes breaking those silos down to create that visibility is the key.
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There are much better ways to govern some of the schemes which are out there, and I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier.
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A lot of incentives in the system force people to think about their next big win then what is the best thing for our sector or the country?
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So I think changing incentives and programs so people really take a step back and look at delivering, for that could help.
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And those incentives lay across multiple things Grant funding, promotions, the way people have to sell themselves as an individual leader rather than an enabler.
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So you've been in the role.
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How many days Are you keeping track of how many days?
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No, I'm not no you're not.
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I think it's less than three months, though, right, so what have you been up to in that time?
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I've spent time understanding the current government priorities, the current strategies out there Most of it I knew, coming into the role, but digging deep into how they're planning to roll them out and deliver, the timelines, the approaches, et cetera.
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Obviously being out and about seeing places, especially in topics, I am not familiar with the hidden stories which I should be shining a light on, especially in the national context.
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One thing I did which might interest people in the room is I brought together all the tech transfer officers of the universities and medical research institutes together in a room, challenge them on how do we exchange perceptions of ease of working together, simpler IP policies, better transfer of IP to industry.
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The basic principle of owning 100% of $0 is $0.
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So you better give away the IP and have a win for everyone.
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So I think some of these are like those culture change conversations.
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I think it's yeah, it's been a very mixed bag, so most days have been, starting from breakfast to evening, events like this.
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So a lot to find out.
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So we're working you hard.
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Will you continue on with that as the tech transfer kind of conversation?
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Is that a ongoing one?
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There's a lot to do in that place.
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See, I think if our ambition is to harness the ideas we have and make them into products, we need a lot of momentum in it and a change in approach.
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And one thing I keep saying is there's no dearth of funds out there.
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If people think there's no money in the system, that's not true.
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We don't have ideas ready for money to pay for it.
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It's more of that readiness of our ideas.
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For example, there are venture funds worth 80 to 200 million being set up.
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Every day.
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I hear so many people in the networks raising money effortlessly to start investing in tech companies.
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There are three of them, close to $160 million, wanting to land in WA for life sciences.
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So it's not the access to money, it is about getting our ideas to maturity such that they are ready for that level of investment.
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There's a term going around quite a bit about absorptive capacity, so that absorptive capacity goes two ways.
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If you give an immature company five million, they're going to probably squander it and it's an investment which goes nowhere.
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But similarly, if you're generating so many ideas or inventions, who's absorbing it in your market?
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If our small and medium enterprises are not ready for it, then it always has to go overseas and then we complain about it.
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So it is going to take time to have that culture shift and the sector to be ready.
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I think the challenges or gaps are very common across all the states and jurisdictions.
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I put them into three buckets.
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One is the real gap around people and their training in different areas.
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If I break that down further, as a country we heavily emphasize higher education unnecessarily.
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We sort of demean vocational education and if we need cutting-edge industries with stable production it's going to be technical trained staff who understand compliance and quality.
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So we need to look at it as a full pipeline.
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Everyone doesn't need a higher ed or PhD.
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They may be really good with their hands in running facilities.
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So I think that balance of talent how do you actually create different pathways and value them I think is important.
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The close related one is because of incentives in the system.
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We do produce too many PhDs at a rate because you're on the clock, because you want to get the completion income, not because they're ready.
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So the readiness of our PhD is going out with the right understanding, not of just research, problem solving and the depth of expertise in their field, but what all they can do with that knowledge?
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The commercialization piece, the compliance piece, how do they inform policy?
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Because that's a gap.
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You could take a PhD, get into government policy, work with the public sector and raise the standard, because it has to be a closed loop.
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You can't keep talking to yourself and your colleagues.
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So for me that people bit is a capability gap throughout the system.
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One example which works, because it's not all doom and gloom, is a program called the Science Policy Fellows.
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We run nationally.
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So that allows PhDs, postdocs, to get a one-year fellowship into federal government departments so they can pick departments or spend six months in foreign affairs, six months in department of environment.
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So it creates two things a knowledge for them for how policy is made, because it's never linear.
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There are so many factors they would never consider as a researcher.
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Two is it gives the department staff access to a potential expert, not on a particular topic, but on how you do research based decision-making, how do you look at the data, how do you analyze, how do you draw insights.
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So that becomes a true partnership in raising the way policies are designed.
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So I think that people bit is core and so many layers to it you can get into it.
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The second one across Australia.
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The challenge is we talk a lot about precincts and spaces but I can't point to a single successful one and those are usually the focal point around which every activity nucleates.
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So in medtech we always talk about the Texas Medical Device Center.
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It grew as a nucleus.
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Companies co-locate service design firms, co-locate IP firms, vcs.
00:20:48.208 --> 00:21:10.086
Until we get that critical mass in a few sectors, I think it's very tough to grow Because only then you see companies of different stages, you have a ready talent pool to tap into that company and we should be open right Companies will fail, but if that company fails, the network around has the absorptive capacity to take all the staff, the trained and talented people.
00:21:10.086 --> 00:21:18.425
So I think really pushing forward to get a few precincts which work, which are long-term planned, it's not going to be a success overnight.
00:21:18.425 --> 00:21:20.586
So that patient game I think is key.
00:21:22.102 --> 00:21:25.569
The closely related bit is the infrastructure piece.
00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:33.784
There's often this talk about value of death and it's never a single value.
00:21:33.784 --> 00:21:35.107
There are multiple values of death.
00:21:35.107 --> 00:21:44.988
The first one is, if you're especially in the research university sector, is getting IP out of the university is the first value of death, how it's actually seamlessly handed over to industry or a spin out.
00:21:44.988 --> 00:21:50.730
The second value of death is taking that proven concept past a trial.
00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:54.890
So how do you actually get access to enough devices to do that?
00:21:54.890 --> 00:21:56.403
That's one thing.
00:21:56.403 --> 00:22:04.527
I always use the technology value of debt, because the moment you can tap into a place which can make enough devices, you'll have evidence and investment flows.
00:22:04.527 --> 00:22:06.963
So it's not a lack of money, it's a lack of evidence.
00:22:06.963 --> 00:22:14.446
So I think the last bit is the manufacturing one which you should be tackling through the second value of death.
00:22:14.868 --> 00:22:31.405
If you do it right, that one's taken care of and being pragmatic right, you would never be able to manufacture in Australia for the world, but you need to own the IP so that it's made by Australian intellectual property and the royalty flows back to us.
00:22:32.008 --> 00:22:40.308
So I think that base infrastructure is key, whether it's a made in WA or a future made in Australia strategy.
00:22:40.308 --> 00:22:44.463
For them to work, that pilot or production infrastructure is key.
00:22:44.463 --> 00:22:50.913
The last one, I think, is just a culture change.
00:22:50.913 --> 00:22:53.105
We are very risk averse.
00:22:53.105 --> 00:22:56.186
We don't want things to fail.
00:22:56.186 --> 00:23:06.248
We think they'll point a finger at someone and say you should have decided better, and I think that has to go, because that's what is holding us back from actually delivering products.
00:23:06.248 --> 00:23:16.671
So the more intellectual property ideas, you can actually get further along the chain, and we should use our parliament houses, the design.
00:23:16.671 --> 00:23:29.644
There'll be a lot at the bottom and it'll narrow right to the top and take that for granted and so keep allowing things to go through the pipeline it's okay if it fails and use that knowledge to keep doing better.
00:23:29.644 --> 00:23:32.867
So I think I'd say it's a mix of those elements.
00:23:33.749 --> 00:23:36.752
So you're also President of Science and Technology Australia still.
00:23:37.733 --> 00:23:38.634
Until November this year.
00:23:41.142 --> 00:23:50.957
That's a lot of hats and, given what you were just talking about, I'm interested in reflections on your time as the President and the things that you've been a vocal proponent of.
00:23:50.957 --> 00:24:01.607
One in particular is Australia's investment in R&D, which I think everyone here would like to see also increased, so I'm wondering if you've got any, if there's any way that you can influence that in WA.
00:24:01.607 --> 00:24:13.352
But then also the other policy points that you've been advocating for around diversity and inclusion, innovation and long-term strategy and early mid-career researchers.
00:24:13.352 --> 00:24:15.663
So any reflections on that space?
00:24:15.663 --> 00:24:23.964
Given your now WA hat has been added to your president one, see, I think a lot of the policy aspects right.
00:24:24.005 --> 00:24:30.454
If you're advocating for a particular spend as a percentage of GDP on R&D, it benefits every level.
00:24:30.454 --> 00:24:35.686
One of the challenges is how does everyone play their part in the system?
00:24:35.686 --> 00:24:45.046
Australia has been I'm worried to use the word fortunate, but our higher education system has been fortunate to have a lot of capital.
00:24:45.046 --> 00:24:50.968
So our higher education R&D spend has been disproportionately high compared to most countries.
00:24:50.968 --> 00:24:53.026
So the government's acronym is HERD.
00:24:53.026 --> 00:25:00.208
While the government expenditure on R&D has been steadily dropping, our business expenditure on R&D has been steadily dropping.
00:25:00.208 --> 00:25:08.503
Those drops had been hidden a bit by HERD because universities are spending more, because it pushed up their rankings, it created more students.
00:25:08.503 --> 00:25:15.634
Now, when that system has been disturbed, I think we are seeing the real consequences.
00:25:16.416 --> 00:25:24.261
But it's always easy to say spend more money, right, and I think that's the narrative which people go with and that's very harmful.
00:25:24.261 --> 00:25:36.430
Whenever I do a proposal or a policy position, I try to, yes, explain what Treasury likes, what the return on investment is, but I also like to outline what is the opportunity cost.
00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:41.088
So if we don't do something now, what is it going to cost us in 10 years' time?
00:25:41.088 --> 00:25:43.586
How many jobs could we have created?
00:25:43.586 --> 00:25:45.625
How much revenue would have come into the country.
00:25:45.625 --> 00:25:49.288
What are the social or environmental impacts?
00:25:50.020 --> 00:26:08.146
And I think opportunity cost being part of policy and decision-making not being a key part of it, I feel is a big drawback so we talked about ecosystems sort of with precincts, and I know that it's an area in terms of investment in strategy and innovation strategy that you're interested in.
00:26:08.146 --> 00:26:14.068
So what would an innovation ecosystem look like in WA that was really successful?
00:26:14.068 --> 00:26:18.346
What do you think are the key ingredients that we need to work on to make it really hum?
00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:22.968
I think if you were to define success down the track right, it would be three things.
00:26:22.968 --> 00:26:30.249
People are fighting to be in it, whether they're from WA or elsewhere, and the real test would be from elsewhere.
00:26:30.249 --> 00:26:31.573
They want to be part of that ecosystem.
00:26:31.573 --> 00:26:34.286
Two is the companies which are growing.
00:26:34.286 --> 00:26:36.171
See, companies would grow.
00:26:36.171 --> 00:26:45.911
They'll have to grow out of that ecosystem, but they want to leave their R&D in there and then they feel the ecosystem is working because they want to still be part of that research framework.
00:26:46.561 --> 00:26:50.865
So they keep a footprint here, but they expand over Exactly, they don't just completely leave.
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:58.849
Yeah, so the manufacturing may go elsewhere, but version three of their product, version four of their product the R&D stays within that ecosystem.
00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:03.905
So that means your ecosystem is working because they see that's where that innovation activity is happening.
00:27:03.905 --> 00:27:11.171
And the third real test would be we are not even talking about whether it's academia, industry or whatever sector.
00:27:11.171 --> 00:27:16.231
It is actually that ecosystem that becomes the identity.
00:27:16.231 --> 00:27:20.323
You don't care about whether the idea came out of a medical research institute or a university or a company.
00:27:20.323 --> 00:27:26.729
It's just seamless and the person who's worked in this can move across and they're not penalized for it.
00:27:26.729 --> 00:27:31.784
And I think that's been the biggest challenge in why our ecosystem has failed.
00:27:31.784 --> 00:27:33.912
Because we don't allow cross mobility.
00:27:33.912 --> 00:27:40.531
A person moves from academia to government, has no way back into academia or industry.
00:27:40.531 --> 00:27:44.260
So I think those are the elements we have to change.
00:27:45.041 --> 00:27:48.468
People are a real important part.
00:27:48.468 --> 00:27:50.692
Does anyone know of anyone that has done that?
00:27:50.692 --> 00:27:54.944
Transferred between government, research, research industry?
00:27:55.506 --> 00:27:58.692
So actually, when I mentioned the science policy fellows.
00:27:58.692 --> 00:28:00.382
People have done that.
00:28:00.382 --> 00:28:06.845
So people have left research and academia, done the science policy fellowship, understood how things work.
00:28:06.845 --> 00:28:13.528
One of them went into TGA, the Therapeutic Goods Administration, and runs their research on consequences.
00:28:13.528 --> 00:28:25.092
So they're using their research skills, policy skills, in a very different research policy lens and a few examples along those lines I've seen work, but it's very rare.
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:34.087
But a closely related one, given you mentioned science and technology, we pushed a lot for changing metrics in grant programs.
00:28:34.087 --> 00:28:38.048
So there's the Australian Research Council industry fellowships.
00:28:38.048 --> 00:28:43.803
So if any of you have applied for it, it does not ask for a publication track record, it asks for a two page CV.
00:28:43.803 --> 00:28:47.426
So it moves away from the traditional metrics.
00:28:47.426 --> 00:28:53.753
Yes, it's the Australian Research Council funding it, but it's looking at are you the capable, right fit person for the role?
00:28:53.753 --> 00:29:00.092
And similarly, the application's not asking for a ten page full research plan.
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:01.704
The whole idea is if you're innovative.
00:29:01.704 --> 00:29:07.007
The plan you wrote today doesn't apply in three months time, so we really have to move away from it.
00:29:07.007 --> 00:29:09.582
It has to be the big principles Is there a market need?
00:29:09.582 --> 00:29:14.086
What is the problem you're trying to fix and why are you the right person for it?
00:29:14.086 --> 00:29:23.230
It's only run a couple of rounds, but already we're seeing some people from industry taking on roles within university because they know there's good activity.
00:29:23.230 --> 00:29:30.246
There's extremely good infrastructure and I think people in Australia don't realize we have amazing research infrastructure.
00:29:30.246 --> 00:29:35.093
There can be challenges in governance, but it is actually top of the line and constantly upgraded.
00:29:36.134 --> 00:29:45.012
So do you think we can take national programs like these that are working and like run more of it in WA and copy what's working elsewhere?
00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:47.990
My simpler answer is to work with those funding agencies.
00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:51.329
Take the reserve list of the WA people who missed out and just fund them.
00:29:51.329 --> 00:29:52.965
Don't add an extra layer.
00:29:55.141 --> 00:29:57.048
WA Health does that already with the Near Mess Awards.
00:29:57.048 --> 00:29:59.207
Exactly yeah which has been quite successful.
00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:00.825
So there's enough out there.
00:30:00.825 --> 00:30:06.627
You can easily partner with those agencies and do it and provide feedback on what's not working for our fit right.
00:30:08.654 --> 00:30:08.878
Yep.
00:30:08.878 --> 00:30:14.431
So what surprised or excited you most that you've discovered since you started in June?
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:22.748
I think the sad thing is no real surprises In the context of you think it'll be different to the federal government.
00:30:22.748 --> 00:30:23.730
It all moves very fast.
00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:32.084
No, it doesn't, because the smaller ecosystem.
00:30:32.084 --> 00:30:33.407
You'd hope it's moving faster, but no so.
00:30:33.429 --> 00:30:39.304
I was hoping I'd be pleasantly surprised, but the good thing is, yeah, bureaucracy is still bureaucracy okay and it doesn't matter where you are, it's there.
00:30:39.644 --> 00:30:45.734
But to me the positive, like I said, that is intent and it's actually very collaborative.
00:30:45.734 --> 00:30:57.670
I don't see universities refusing to work with each other, like most of the programs and bids I see have multiple W universities on them together.
00:30:57.670 --> 00:31:02.868
I think that's actually quite refreshing compared to the East Coast and people may not realize it.
00:31:02.868 --> 00:31:07.892
Maybe the isolation makes people work together more, but actually it is a positive.
00:31:08.172 --> 00:31:09.756
Yeah, I've observed that too.
00:31:09.756 --> 00:31:11.182
I think we're really collaborative.
00:31:11.182 --> 00:31:16.480
So how do we increase that collaboration to include industry with academia?
00:31:19.227 --> 00:31:23.182
I think it's referred to in the 10-year science and tech plan and it's a question of how we implement it.
00:31:23.182 --> 00:31:42.529
Without looking at the boundaries, looking at what grand challenges we want to solve for WA through centers of excellence, having bids around that which are, then you come together as the right people to do it right, whether it's industry-led, academia-led or it's a proper partnership.
00:31:42.529 --> 00:31:44.201
I think that's a good approach.
00:31:44.201 --> 00:31:53.926
Interestingly, I heard which was a surprise that in the past there used to be a centres of excellence scheme in WA which worked well, so I've asked for more information on that because I'm very curious.
00:31:54.910 --> 00:31:55.310
So am I.
00:31:55.310 --> 00:32:02.006
I don't know if you've noticed it, but Shirath, I find, is a really eloquent communicator of science and technology.
00:32:02.006 --> 00:32:20.207
If any of you go back on YouTube and listen to his press club address that I referred to at the beginning from last year, and I think that you'll all agree that it's something that he does with difficult concepts like microchips and that I just don't understand at all, being a biological scientist.
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.748
But now shouldn't you understand, because you listened to my speech.
00:32:22.827 --> 00:32:25.967
Sure, yeah, while I was cooking dinner.
00:32:25.967 --> 00:32:29.445
Excellent point, well made.
00:32:29.445 --> 00:32:34.940
Have you always had a knack for communicating science, or is it something that you've actively had to work on?
00:32:36.403 --> 00:32:45.593
I think most of this you get better with practice, but for me, the fundamental principle of you doing research in the Australian system is a privilege.
00:32:45.593 --> 00:32:47.364
The taxpayer funds it.
00:32:47.364 --> 00:32:59.887
However poor we cry, whatever element we do is still taxpayer funded, and so it is our duty to convince them why it's worth it and inspire people to see what the opportunities are.
00:32:59.887 --> 00:33:05.628
And so, obviously, as a researcher, I started by the usual thing of writing a paper, publishing it.
00:33:05.628 --> 00:33:08.940
Then I was like that's not the end game, what do you do more with it?
00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:15.807
So we started actually doing media releases and this time we started doing there was a lot of pushback- From the university.
00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:17.282
No, from the sector.
00:33:17.282 --> 00:33:22.432
Like your peer reviewers would comment, they are dumbing down the science.
00:33:22.432 --> 00:33:24.928
So that can hurt.
00:33:24.928 --> 00:33:26.284
That's the discoverer's nature.
00:33:26.284 --> 00:33:29.547
But the whole point is I'm trying to make it accessible.
00:33:29.547 --> 00:33:32.465
You bring people along on the journey, get them hooked in.
00:33:32.465 --> 00:33:33.449
They'll ask you more questions.
00:33:33.449 --> 00:33:34.432
Then you get into the detail.
00:33:34.432 --> 00:33:41.847
You can't be high and mighty and scare them away with the detail from day one, and so I think that fine balance in the communication piece was important.
00:33:41.847 --> 00:34:01.465
And I think the second aspect of it is often every project has a long-term value and the value could be making people's lives better, could be making the planet better, and I think communicating that value is very important if you want young people to actually get on the journey of STEM.
00:34:01.465 --> 00:34:13.409
I've spoken at multiple schools and whenever I talk in girls' schools, that communication piece I feel is transformative, because most girls don't pursue a career for a job.
00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:18.864
They pursue it because it has a sense of value, they feel they can make a difference.
00:34:18.864 --> 00:34:26.543
I'm really simplifying it, but unless they get that value of what this field can do to others, I don't think they'd pursue it.
00:34:26.543 --> 00:34:34.371
So I think it is a role of communication to actually highlight that I did a talk in a girl's school on ICT.
00:34:34.530 --> 00:34:38.467
So information and computing technology, thinking about it super dry.
00:34:38.467 --> 00:34:42.887
It's networking, it's a lot of microchips, but obviously I didn't focus on that.
00:34:42.887 --> 00:34:45.523
I focused on the different thematic things which are enabled by it.
00:34:45.523 --> 00:34:48.088
Microchips now make cars drive.
00:34:48.088 --> 00:34:50.481
Without a microchip, there's no car.
00:34:50.481 --> 00:34:51.402
Pretty much.
00:34:51.402 --> 00:35:02.139
A microchip is what is used in a hospital to save a person's life, to do an ultrasound, to look at the image, and you don't need to be designing a microchip right.
00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:12.108
You could design the product which incorporates it, you could do the service design to make it user-friendly, and there are so many layers to it, and so I think bringing them along on that journey is key.
00:35:12.108 --> 00:35:14.106
That's one of the reasons you'd communicate.
00:35:15.481 --> 00:35:18.230
So I've got one last question here on my list.
00:35:18.230 --> 00:35:24.550
This is a juicy one and I think you've already alluded to it, but I wanted to explicitly ask you.
00:35:24.550 --> 00:35:39.891
So, going back to the low success rate in national grant schemes, what advice would you give scientists and researchers engineers that might be in the room or listening how to be more competitive, and what should the state do to support them?
00:35:40.762 --> 00:35:43.367
Given your question, I think there's three parts to it.
00:35:43.367 --> 00:35:46.211
The first one what should an individual do?
00:35:46.211 --> 00:35:48.103
Make your work more visible?
00:35:48.103 --> 00:35:55.286
Communicate actively, whether it's in simple language, through media, through going to events on the East Coast.
00:35:55.286 --> 00:35:59.295
But the close related one is please don't think of Australia.
00:35:59.295 --> 00:36:00.641
Think of being the best in the world.
00:36:00.641 --> 00:36:02.362
Then Australia will follow.
00:36:02.362 --> 00:36:05.483
Your competition is not with the East Coast, it's with the world.
00:36:05.483 --> 00:36:08.550
So I think that's what we need to be aspiring to.
00:36:09.231 --> 00:36:12.144
The second bit is what can the government do?
00:36:12.144 --> 00:36:17.025
People may not like to hear it, but the government has to give signals of priorities and pick winners.
00:36:17.025 --> 00:36:18.853
We can't do everything.
00:36:18.853 --> 00:36:25.577
If we do everything, we'll be below average, and so that's the signal the government can do.
00:36:25.577 --> 00:36:29.032
We back these areas, even if federally they don't.
00:36:29.032 --> 00:36:36.139
We'll back it till we are better and the feds follow us with money, and so sometimes just pick winners, pursue it.
00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:39.112
Any external money is icing on the cake.
00:36:39.112 --> 00:36:40.115
It's not the cake.
00:36:40.115 --> 00:36:42.923
So I think that determined strategy has to be there.
00:36:42.923 --> 00:36:51.282
And the third one I would say is just bringing more people along to show the good work which is happening.
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:55.929
I really think that lack of visibility always hurts us.
00:36:55.929 --> 00:37:03.974
For example, I once sent a delegation from Singapore to visit WA because they were trying to see which area or person they partner with for clinical trials, and I don't think most people in WA knew actually how good our clinical trial system is.
00:37:03.974 --> 00:37:08.655
Visit WA because they were trying to see which area or person they partner with for clinical trials, and I don't think most people in WA knew actually how good our clinical trial system is.
00:37:08.655 --> 00:37:17.586
It's one of the most integrated within each unit and actually one of the cheapest in the world for highest quality clinical trials.
00:37:17.586 --> 00:37:24.322
So now we do have a WA clinical trial strategy but sometimes when you're so close to it you take it for granted.
00:37:24.322 --> 00:37:28.132
You need an external lens to look at it and shine a light on.
00:37:29.240 --> 00:37:29.884
Thank you for that.
00:37:29.884 --> 00:37:43.704
Well, I'm looking forward to the WLF Sciences Innovation Hub continuing to support lots of those activities, and I am going to draw the evening to a close and begin by asking you to thank Professor Shroom for his thoughts.
00:37:51.132 --> 00:37:53.815
You've been listening to the MTP Connect podcast.
00:37:53.815 --> 00:37:58.871
This podcast is produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people here in Narm, Melbourne.
00:37:58.871 --> 00:38:00.786
Thanks for listening to the show.
00:38:00.786 --> 00:38:04.548
If you love what you heard, share our podcast and follow us for more.
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