#157: The Market Doesn't Care About Your Story — What The Body Keeps the Score Teaches Traders About Risk

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Welcome to the AlphaMont podcast.
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Yep, we're back from a break and uh Steve Golstein and myself are just really looking forward to put forward um a sequence of guests really interesting podcasts and kicking off today with one that um I know that both Steve and I have um had many discussions about in terms of uh of of how trading really affects us deep down and what we can learn from that.
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And uh there's a book in particular that um we want to focus as sort of uh sort of thing we're hanging on to uh in this particular session.
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So I'm just gonna hand over to Steve, and I'm sure he'll he'll be very pleased to uh welcome him ownself back to uh the podcast to guess um start off with referencing this book and some of the things that we're gonna dip into today.
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Yeah, sure.
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Um hi Mark, good to see you again.
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And uh as you know, it's uh we're back now.
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A lot of people messaged us in that meantime to go, where are you guys?
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What are you coming back?
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Are you coming back?
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Um and we're delighted to say that we are.
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Um, and we're starting today with a discussion about trading that's connected to one of my favorite books.
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It's a very well-known book in the world of psychology, psychotherapy, coaching by Bessel van der Koek.
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The book is called The Body Keeps a Score.
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And the book is called Mind, Brain, and or has a subtitle, Mind, Brain and Body in the Transformation of Trauma.
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Now, that might sound a little bit extreme for trading, um, because really the book talks about deep trauma, uh, what we would call real-world traumas, um, people called in war zones, um, soldiers returning from war uh with uh post-traumatic stress, um, people who have been abused um and been within abusive relationships.
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Um, and um it it it studied this and it studied the effect of these on people and uh the different ways that people deal with these aspects.
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Now, I I often talk about trading being a trauma, um, not this sort of trauma, but um a kind of whole series of traumas one after the other, um, personal traumas for people, um, traumas where we end up um questioning our own sense of self, our identity, our ability.
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You know, trading is is a very lonely job.
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Even if you sit within a trading room with hundreds of people, it can feel like the loneliest place in the world.
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Um, and a lot of people, you know, when dealing with the um the markets and uh um the randomness and the uncertainty and the um the destructive power of markets that it can have on you, um, it can destroy your your your self-image, your self-worth, your sense of identity in a way that really does feel like a trauma.
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Um so we're gonna go through to this today, and I I hope this resonates with you.
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And um and we're gonna discuss this uh between us.
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So just to really set up the book, um Bessel van der Kook was uh was a psychiatrist and a trauma researcher um who's done decades and decades of clinical work, uh working neuroscience.
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And and the core thesis of the book is that trauma isn't just a story that's stored in our memory, it's actually stored in our body and in our entire nervous system.
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Um and that's why talking about it alone uh often isn't enough just to resolve this.
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This courses through our veins, this courses through every part of us, and and it gets retained in the body, these traumas.
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Um and what really uh drew me to the book, as drew so many people to the book, is how how often it is quoted by leading traders that I work with, um, who eventually make their way to it.
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And and it helps them start to understand um some of the dynamics of of the pressure performance relationship.
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Um so today I want to sort of talk with Mark, and you know, this is really going into a space where Mark very much operates in about five lessons that I I would say that I took away from the book that I think would be really interesting for you, the audience, to listen to and you know, try and process for yourself and you know, think about how it affects you in some way.
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And the first of these is is um it's not really the term call called in the book, but I call it amygdala hijack.
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Okay, it's where the rational brain goes offline under threat.
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Um and and Van der Koop's done a lot of neuroimaging work um which shows that under perceived threat, uh our prefrontal cortex, our medial prefrontal cortex, um, the part of the brain that we generally use for rational rationality, uh self-awareness, reason decision making, that gets quick, that gets shut down, it goes quiet.
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Okay, it gets taken over by the fear response from the amygdala, which is a much more ancient part of the brain.
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Um, and and the brain's threat detector system suddenly is it's switched on to high.
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And this is why you know, just rationalizing something that people in an emotional state doesn't resolve it for them.
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You can't rationalise that moment because people are not engaged with the rational brain, and they don't have the ability to just switch the rational brain on or not.
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Um, you know, they're not neurocol neurologically capable of thinking their way out of that moment.
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Um and uh you know, if you ever see someone who's caught in a trauma or a panic, you know, what what what a a doctor or a medical person or even a coach would do is get them to breathe at that point, just sit with their breaths and count their breaths as a way of slowing it down and and getting back to rationalizing and being rational.
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Um, and and you know, if if as a trader um you recognize this particular moment, it's where you have a plan, you have a process, you're watching the market, uh, you know what you want to do, and then the market goes a little bit crazy, volatility um picks up, or certain levels get broken.
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Um if you're in a trading room, there's a lot of shouting and screaming around you.
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If you're working at home, you're seeing you know, you're seeing the market just suddenly, you know, move in leaps and bounds away from where you were.
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Um and you just get you you might be at that point taken into almost a sort of mini panic state, and you kind of lose sight and forget your process and your plans.
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Um and you only realize the time where afterwards, when this is over later on in the day, when you're looking at your PL and you're looking at your performance and you're trying to understand what happened, and you might say to yourself, What was I thinking then?
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Why did I do that?
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That was not in my plan.
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What made me do that?
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But the reason was it's because you've neurologically kind of gone offline.
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Your your prefrontal cortex, your thinking capabilities have gone offline and been taken over, been hijacked by the amygdala.
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Okay.
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Um, so I'm I'm gonna throw this over to Mark and get your views on this, Mark.
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Great, and thanks for that, Steve.
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Very interesting topic.
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This uh you're about to find out quite close to my heart.
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So 200 million years ago or so, when the early brain was evolving, um physical threat was uh was was there to be dealt with.
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And the amygdala was the early part of uh what that brain, of course, is part of our own brain, often referred to as the reptilian brain from our own perspective.
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And the amygdala, of which there were two on one, there's one on the left and one on the right side of the brain.
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Um, they're called amygdala because it's a Greek word for almond, because they look like almonds, and um yeah, so but this was for a physical threat 200 million years ago.
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But we're when in the modern world, of course, we perceive threat, and that threat can come from all sorts of places.
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Um we can create our own threat, by the way, that our mind wanders into disaster, but also if from a trading point of view something nasty happens, the amygdala is kind of like a tripwire, so it trips you in thinking I'm under threat.
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Now, the problem is that we're using a 200 million old sort of operating system to face what is generally an emotional type of threat, uh, because it's emotional control we're talking about in terms of trades and our um reaction to trades going wrong.
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And what it does, it floods the body with cortisol and adrenaline because it thinks you're about to go into physical threat.
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And you're just looking at a trade disaster, let's just say.
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So it's it's tearing you up for a physical threat.
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So it widens out the arteries to allow blood to pump to the must big muscle groups.
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It takes blood away from the surface of the skin so you can get a cold sweat.
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Your hair might stand on end, you might get a bit of a sort of a dry mouth as well.
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Your digestive system's offline because that's not important if you're about to try to survive a physical threat.
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Um, your heart starts to beat faster.
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And people out there thinking, I recognize this, it's just this is me in moments of panic, and it is panic.
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So the physiological state of the body is changing because of a perceived threat that your body's treating as a physical threat.
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So it's making you teed up to run the heck out of there to escape this threat.
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So all of these things are going on, but the cordazone adrenaline takes time to leave the system.
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And as Steve said, prefrontal cortex, you know, the if you're under physical threat or under perceived physical threat in this case, you're not thinking about your pension plan, you're thinking about how the hell I get out of here.
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So prefrontal complex thinking, or even the appetite for complex thinking is offline, um, as your body is, you know, just trying trying to deal with threat.
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And of course, we hear that uh it can be it can be a faint, it can be a freeze, you know, get the hell out of there.
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There are various aspects of how we could look at threat in terms of our reaction.
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And I and I've seen, as stated on podcasts before, I've seen somebody freeze, absolute, you know, Rigor Mortis freeze because the threat was so overwhelming.
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So it is um it is difficult.
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And Steve mentioned briefly about um the use of breath.
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We must also understand there's a huge amount of research, and I think um the author mentioned it in his book too, about the fact that the amygdala can be shrunk, but it also can grow.
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So the more perceived threat we're under and we're not managing, the amygdala can actually get bigger.
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So it actually becomes even more of a problem.
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Um, using stress management processes, like particularly mindfulness, that's been shown to reduce the size of the amygdala, which means when you come under perceived threat, your response to it is much more managed because the amygdala and its processes has become a little bit more controlled.
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So there are ways to look at this, but of course, if you start thinking I'm I'm gonna get not bothered and I'm gonna carry on just as I am, you know, reacting to threat in this way, where adrenaline and cortisol is gets flooding the system.
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I give you a clue your sleep's gonna be pretty bad as well, because the cortisol and adrenaline just doesn't help sleep.
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So you wake up the next day, you come to the market, you've got a compromise mindset, it all kicks off, and you're already on the back foot.
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Over time, this creates um huge anxiety, it can create depression and recurring depression.
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And Steve and I will tell you that, and quite a few people that we've coached, we've seen that show up where people have shared that with us.
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That you know, this becomes, as we call it, a bit of a doom loop, but it's a mental doom loop that we get stuck in because of the chemical side of our reaction to trauma that's in our body.
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So, yeah, there's a little bit of an introduction from me.
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It's yeah, trauma can take its shape.
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You can have small trauma, you can have big traumas, but if you're not careful, it can turn you into the green-eyed monster.
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And you look back and you just think, What the hell was I doing?
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Why did I do that?
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Why did I say that?
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If you're in a big corporate environment and it all kicks off and you've got the wrong version of you showing up, you might well have conversations that get you into even more deep water.
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Um, so um, yeah, it's dangerous on many fronts, unmanaged, it's lethal.
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But I talked about the symptoms, and many people will think, yeah, that's yeah, I I recognize that.
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Brilliant, brilliant.
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Thank you, Mark.
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And you know that you you mentioned something about the physical threat, and people might be going, thinking, well, you know what, I'm I'm not in the jungle anymore.
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There's no tigers in the bushes, there's no snakes under my seat, um, there's no deadly spiders uh waiting to come out of the woodwork here at home.
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Um, but you know what, it it this this often means uh an identity threat as much as a physical threat.
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Um, but I will come back to that because I think we're gonna talk about a point a little bit later on which talks about this identity threat.
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Um, but it means as much to our our um our psychological system as a physical threat.
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Um the second point in the book, okay, which I wanted to draw, and this is why this book is so profound, is that he argues that the body knows before you do.
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Okay.
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And by you, I'm talking about you know, your mind for you, your conscious you.
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Okay.
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Um his argument is that and it draws on the work of a um a well-known scientist called Stephen Porges, who came up with something called the polyvagal theory.
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Um and there's there's an old psychologist joke, which is what goes on in the vagus nerve stays in the vagus nerve.
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And the vagus nerve is um a major part of your uh nervous system which connects your your your brain to your stomach.
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And people often call the stomach the second brain.
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Um and I I think it's found to have more um more more nerves in it um related to to thought than most mammals, about the same as a cat.
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Um so uh and you know, when we talk about getting butterflies in our stomach, that is why.
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Um how we feel, you know, and and and and and and the words about the stomach come out in our coach, in our trading, you know, gut instinct.
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You just think of the very term we use.
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Traders who trade from the gut.
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You know, the the the stomach feels things often before we're conscious in the brain about them, as we do in other parts of the body.
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I mean, if you were to ever do a body scan, which is a great technique used in certain um psycho uh psychotherapy fields and also within mindfulness, the work of mindfulness.
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Um, you know, I I I've done that where I feel an awkwardness in a different part of my body, maybe in my chest, maybe in my arms, maybe the top of my legs.
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We've all felt the hairs on the back of our neck stand out at various times, or a pain in our neck.
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Okay.
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Um and and and the idea between this the polyvagal theory, uh, as Van Van der Koek describes it, um, and the concept of neurosception is that the nervous system is constantly unconsciously scanning for danger.
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And it's doing that, and it's happening faster and earlier than conscious thought.
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Okay, so when you think about the tight chest before a trade, you ought to check the position for a tenth time, the shallow breath before hitting send, that's not noise, but that's neurosection firing before the conscious mind is caught up.
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Um this is the what if moment where FOMO and fear of regret causes us to do something that the conscious rational mind has planned for us.
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Okay.
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And this is this is real, this is happening.
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This is why it's impossible to trade unemotionally.
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We try as much as we do, we do.
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In fact, you know, I I have uh a kind of issue with with much of the trading industry out there.
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Uh and you know, I've been around the block many times on this 25 years as a trader, um, 15 years as a coach working with traders.
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And and you know, one of the mistakes I I used to try and make, and my colleagues all try to make, is to think we could trade without emotions, you know, and I see this in lots of trading academies and courses where they're trying to teach people to trade without emotions.
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Okay, even some of the big hedge fund academies try and do this, try and create an emotional decision making.
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But you know, in the real world, not in the laboratory, you know, unless you're a robot, these two aims are impossible.
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Okay.
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Um and that's why, you know, we're wired this way through our we we we operate through our central nervous system, which has evolved over millions of years, as Mark said, you know, the amagdala 200 million years old or something.
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Okay.
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Um so the feelings we have they occur before thoughts.
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You know, so unless you plan to miraculously flip millions of years of evolutionary hardware, you have to accept that right reality and start from there.
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And I meet some incredible traders who have come to terms with their emotions, factor it into their process, and actually have become much better traders.
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So I'm gonna throw this now over to you, Mark, about uh you know how the body knows before you do.
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Yeah, it is interesting.
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The speed, the speed of reaction.
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One of the things that I thought about was that if if you pick up something that's hot, your response to it is quicker than thought.
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Yeah.
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Something in your system telling you to drop it.
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It's an immediate reaction that is milli, milli, milliseconds.
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And if you had to think about it, you'd you'd you'd burn yourself.
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But there's something in our system that reacts quicker than thought because you know, new neurons are everywhere.
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But in terms of also how we um it engage with and this drifts into presence a little bit, you know.
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We we often talk about presence and what is presence, it's it's guess being uh aware of the um what we consciously see, but also understanding there's another layer that's below consciousness that we're also picking up signals from, and it's understanding those signals and translating them into you know actually doing something.
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And I know that uh we've had some people that uh that we've coached that reflect upon being in a flow state where things just but where time sort of slows down, things become easy because they seem to have an intuition about what's going on uh that they can't really put their finger on.
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And I think that perhaps is some of the answer that there are times when you can't really explain why you had that thought or feeling, but accepting that uh and being tuned in to those feelings turn up, and those two those feelings mean something, and if you tune in at the right way, right level, they may well help the way that you're you know and analyzing markets.
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Um, and of course, it may be that you're in your peripheral vision you're picking up signals.
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You know, we often focus so much on on perhaps in trading the bid and offer in the depth, but you know, it's what's going on in your peripheral vision or what you're hearing from a trading wind point of view in terms of uh a peripheral sort of piece of noise showing that the interest rate desk has just got busy and you're trading foreign exchange, and that might be relevant.
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Awareness and uh presence becomes part of this because these signals have to come from somewhere.
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Um, you know, you and all of your senses are permanently tuned in to kind of figuring out what what's going on, particularly around potential threats, but they're listening to everything.
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And it's you trying to decipher that.
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So even recognizing the fact that this is going on is important because it allows you to think okay, there's something else I guess need to be potentially aware of.
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And oh, yeah, I did I do get those feelings every now and then that I can almost predict what's about to.
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Happen next in a way that happens next.
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And I then think, well, why didn't I do anything about it?
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You must have had it.
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You must have had time for anything.
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I I did as a trainer.
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I did.
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It didn't.
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It felt like magic.
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If I talk about that in my book, and uh it feels just like instinct almost or intuition, the word you you mentioned about a minute ago.
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Another word we don't even know yet.
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Yeah, isn't it?
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We go from instinct to intuition, they're they're kind of so connected.
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Um and I always like to think of you know, I read something about the um the way uh a baseball player or a cricketer um reacts to uh the delivery of the ball from the bowler or pitcher.
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Yeah, 100 mile an hour ball.
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Well, they've actually they've actually you know, scientists have actually assessed this, and they said to adjust and adapt to the ball leaving the hand requires a response time of something like 400 milliseconds or less, which is faster than conscious conscious neural processing.
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Okay, so so what they've found that elite batters do um is they bypass slow deliberate thought by using advanced predictive coding in their brain.
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Um and and and and they have a fine-tuned sort of visuamotor coupling.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:31.039
Okay, so in other words, what they're doing is they're they've learned to take cues from what's happening just before it happens.
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:42.079
Yeah, they're already shaping up to play the shot before the ball has left the bowler's hand because um you haven't got time to make a decision after that.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:48.319
Okay, so they're they're anticipating the trajectory of the bodily clue cues, right?
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:50.960
And how maybe that's going to bounce on the pitch.
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:59.200
And all that's being done in real time, okay, by the human brain, by people who have seen these patterns over.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.720
That's why practice works.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:07.200
And they're not thinking I think Simon Mundy mentioned it in one of his podcasts when he was on with us that uh it's action without thought.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.079
So you're not, you've not had to they've not had to think about that.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah, they're not to think, oh, what am I about to do?
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:14.160
Because I'm noticing this.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:14.640
Yeah.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:20.160
Well, in cricket they've noticed that they're already working it out without them having to say, yeah, can you work this out?
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:26.640
There's there's looking ahead in cricket, they say that elite batters project their gaze to where they predict the ball will arrive.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:27.200
Yeah.
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:27.759
Okay.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.559
Um, rather than chasing the ball reactively.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:38.079
I mean, that's the mathematics behind that is hugely complicated, but it gives you a sense as to how complex our brain is.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.559
Yeah.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:45.359
And what it's what it can do if we give it the opportunity to do it, and we can tune into that.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:47.200
And there's a lot of interesting stuff there.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:59.440
So professional players manage to stabilize their head orientation to minimize the visual purr, which then allows the eye moments to process the crank, you know, the final critical microsessors.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.160
All this is done by passing the the the pre-frontal cortex, which actually works quite slowly.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.079
And the same thing happens in trading.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:18.480
I know incredible traders who are so reactive, okay, and they kind of see the setup happening, but they couldn't even describe it.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.000
No, you know.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:29.920
Uh uh, I always remember working with a guy at a bank about 10, 12 years ago, phenomenal day trader, FX day trader, okay.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:39.599
And he was just in out the market all day long, okay, just watching the numbers on the screen, not even the charts, just watching the numbers.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:45.359
You know, he'd have some client trades going through his books, which added a bit of extra context and insight.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:26:00.960
Um, and he knew where he wanted to be ultimately positioned, but he would just then use, you know, it was the noise of everything happening around him, people saying stuff, seeing the behavior of markets that would just give him the cue to just execute without thinking.
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:02.480
And it it was phenomenal.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:04.960
And he he was the most successful trader within the business.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:07.039
And I guess there was trust there, wasn't it?
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:08.400
He trusted himself at that time.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.640
We got to the point after a while of really trusting that process.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:19.039
Um so so you know that that the entire process was trusting it.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.359
And I see this for phenomenal traders today.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:35.200
Okay, it's it's you don't have to be a day trader to happen, but you can see stuff happening that's giving you clues before it happens that gives you a chance to just you know adjust yourself.
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:48.400
Um you know, a lot of the best traders, you know, we go back to Amrit in in the the the Unknown Market Wizards, um, who I worked with and um I I spoke about in my book.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.680
And you know, sorry for the little plug there, guys, can't help it.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.440
Mastering the mental gamma trading.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:54.559
It's a habit, it's a habit.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:55.359
Don't worry about it.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:00.240
Um you know, he that was him.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:06.559
That the work he did off floor was ridiculous to prepare.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.160
Well, he was deep now, wasn't he?
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.119
He he was the deep now.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:09.920
Deep now.
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:16.240
So when he was on the floor, it was just all in the moment, all the reaction, but he prepared for those reactions.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:23.680
And they may not they may not happen, but if they happened, he was ready for them and he knew what he wanted to do, and then he would adjust it.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:31.200
And and so it was it was intuitive, it was gut feel, it was instinct, but it was also all that meets preparation and planning.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:41.039
So, you know, to see that that that's where we can see this sort of working together as as a beautiful coordination.
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:47.200
Um moving on to the the third uh takeaway.
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.559
So really the the second takeaway from that, by the way.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:52.160
In fact, there's two takeaways.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.240
We never talked about a takeaway for the first one.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.200
The takeaway is build the rules and processes before you're in a threat state, not during it.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:00.160
Okay.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:10.079
Um be pre-committed mechanical triggers exist prior precisely because you cannot reliably reason your way through a live drawdown.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.160
That's why we have stops, okay.
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:16.240
If you use a stop method, not every method uses a stop, by the way.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:20.319
And I know some people think that's crazy, but that's probably because you don't use that method.
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:28.400
Um, but the second trait takeaway we've got from the body knows before you do is treat physical sensation as data.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:34.880
Okay, a quick body scan before entering a trade, um, calm or activated.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.079
It's a legitimate risk management input, not a soft optional add-on.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:48.400
And this is what the best traders are doing, whether they've done it by design or it's just an evolutionary evolution of their own trading process.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.519
That's what they're doing.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:54.480
Yeah, it's fit it's filling mindfulness as part of your process because it's a mindful activity.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:55.200
Yeah.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.640
So it's the what's the way it's a weapon.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.359
I mean, if if you if you look at it, it's an absolute weapon.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.400
A lethal weapon, not just a weapon, yeah.
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:05.359
A lethal weapon.
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:06.160
It's you know, for some people.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:13.200
Is doing it because it enhances is pro-tuition a word.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:21.519
What's what's the slightly forward thinking version of intuition where you're slightly forward of current point in time?
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.160
Is it pro-tuition or proception?
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:24.960
You know what?
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:36.559
I've never heard of pro-tuition, but what you've got me doing is going on to Claude right now, our best mate, yeah, who's with us on this call, uh, and asked, Is pro-intuition a word?
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:41.599
And he said, He said, Isn't a word I recognize?
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:42.960
Did you mean prostitution?
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:59.680
Yeah, probably or protrusion or I think there is a word where your where your level of intuition is slightly ahead of you, or slightly ahead of what you see as real time, because we process with a lag.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:06.160
And anything that can reduce that lag and get you closer to real real time, I think gives you a chance.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.039
And I'm trying to work out what this all about is all about.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.799
Um, anyway, so I think there is a word.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:12.400
We'll work out what the word is in the show.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.680
There's a whole series of words that Claude's come up with.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:16.240
Okay.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:20.319
Um, prescience, foreknowledge or foresight, sensing what's coming before.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:21.759
Prescience, yeah, prescience.
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:22.160
That's it.
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:23.039
That's I like that one.
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:30.079
So, you know, if you meant sensing things before they happen, it's a prescience is the word.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:39.759
So, yeah, we'd like to mention, we'd like to, by the way, introduce our listeners to Claude, a new member of the team, um, who's doing this completely uh with his best mate, Gemini Pro.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.519
Voluntarily.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:42.480
Okay.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:50.480
Um, so let should we move on to the third, um, yeah, third of these uh the these points from the book?
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:57.359
Um, and it it it really comes under the sentence one bad hit can fragment the whole story.
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.799
Okay, it it's what I call the identity hit.
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:15.279
Um, and Van der Koopt discusses how trauma can fragment a person's coherent sense of self, leaving parts of them still reacting as though danger is present long after the event has passed.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:26.880
Um effectively, here what he's saying, and and you know, this is where I come back to, you know, you were talking about the amygdala responding to a physical threat, okay.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:44.640
But the the the the idea here is that as beings, we've moved on from the basic uh reptiles of 200 million years ago and the proto-mammals and the the early low um uh low class of mammals to a much more thinking mammal, okay.
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:49.680
Um and the higher level mammals, you know, they start to have this, okay.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:55.680
And um, you know, they start to have an identity, and and that's because they're social animals.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.680
That you know, we are social beings, we rely on others to get by.
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:09.119
If we if we didn't, we'd we'd fade away if we're cast out of the group or the um the the clan, the society, the tribe.
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:10.799
You know, we can't function.
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.920
Okay, it's a death sentence effectively in the natural world.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:25.359
Okay, it's why loneliness is hurt so much because we're primed not to be lonely and we'll adjust our behaviors to make sure we we we retain the um approval of the clan.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:35.440
It's why we need the approval of others, it's why we need contact is essentially one of the most human um uh um elements that parts of being human.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.039
So so loss of identity, okay.
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:51.680
The identity here is us fearing, okay, that others are going to disapprove of us and we're gonna become isolated and thrown out, and we lose our sense of self at that moment.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:33:03.519
So people aren't processing money loss, okay, because the brain doesn't know what money is, not not the ancient, even the modern brain, you know, money's a recent invention, okay.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.640
It means something.
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:08.480
What money is is it means something, it has a meaning, okay.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:18.000
What people are really processing is the hit to their identity, their self-esteem, their sense of self-worth, their sense of self-value of who they are.
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:18.480
Okay.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:22.240
If they can't like themselves, how can other people like themselves?
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:35.920
Okay, so in trading, a single catastrophic loss, um, even within a sound process, even within the parameters of what's bearable, can really fragment a trader's trust in themselves.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:40.160
Um, and that doesn't go away because that's the trauma hit.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.319
Okay, it stays in the body.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.640
Okay, so they then become braced.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:51.759
You you mark, Mark, if you could see me, I'm tightening my grip here on myself, my body, my arms are coming in, being held tight.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.359
We tighten up and we're braced for the next blow-up.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:00.960
We, you know, we we start looking around looking for it, okay, and we start sabotaging our process.
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:08.559
We sabotage good trades, we won't take them, or we'll we'll we'll quickly take a profit, or we'll cut a loss even too quickly, okay?
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:12.960
Um, because merely it might have some echo of the one that hurt.
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:13.679
That's all.
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.960
And what we we can often I use the term catastrophizing when I'm working with clients.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:30.800
You know, people expect something to go wrong, and then this attitude manifests in their trading, and the very failure they consciously want to avoid, they're actually creating.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.119
Yeah, this reminds me of we talked about Federer in the past, didn't we?
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:59.119
The sort of the ability to take a hit, to reset, recover, and guess get back in the game, um, and having a process around that, but also a process of preconditioning so that hits don't scar, you know, and I think that um we we see a lot of scars from the people that we talk to, uh, scars that are difficult to forget.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:19.440
And I think if if you have a scar, if you have a wound that is poorly um managed, as it were, you know, you you can you can have a wound on your leg, and I've got one from about 1968 where I cut my leg with a standing knife trying to trying to cut a piece of wood that I'm looking at now in this hot climate that we now exist in.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.760
Um, and that's a reminder of what I did back then.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:27.280
Um and and scars remind us.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:40.400
But if if if I'm sure if if that wound back in 1968 was was, you know, just more carefully attended to, it would it would not have it would not have been a scar decades later.
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:47.840
So I think how we manage being wounded, um, and whether it leaves a residual scar on us is important.
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:57.519
Um, if we carry out some of the processes we mentioned today, then we can cope with a hit, as it were, and it then it doesn't scar us.
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:05.679
And I guess you know, the uh part of the book title, what's it the body has the score?
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.079
I think unmanaged, you know, you're gonna you're gonna be super scarred.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:16.880
Um managed, you're gonna ex you know you're gonna manage through a a hit.
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:31.199
And going back to the Federa thing where you kind of move on and and you've forgotten about it, as it were, and it doesn't scar you, but you've you've had a recovery, you have a recovery plan to that hit.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:38.639
And so the ability to recover from a hit also requires you to be in the right mental state to have that process.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:48.000
Now, if you're falling apart at the seams and um you know stress is the predominant mix, and of course, we've we've we've we've talked about well, what does that translate?
00:36:48.159 --> 00:37:00.559
That translates into fight or flight or freeze or faint and all that chemical stuff going on, you know, with 10% less IQ and prefrontal cortex offline, you're not going to be able to work out your recovery plan anyway.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.679
So it kind of gets worse.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:12.320
So it's almost like you need to start off with these processes to be able to manage the amygdala hijack, to be able to manage the threat response that turns up chemically.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:23.920
For you to deal with a hit to know in confidence that you've got a structure that guess goes, okay, I've got a process, I've left that behind, it's not scarred me, and I'm back in the game.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.519
Because that's what Fedra does.
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:30.239
He's doing that up until the point of now being partly retired.
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:36.559
You know, he's he was historically known to guess have this ability to guess move through.
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:38.800
I think in the early teenage years he didn't have it.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:47.360
So it he acquired he acquired it into being such a managed state where if he had a hit, he recovered, he moved on.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:56.559
And we talk about that in in our work, you know, you you how you your relationship to a trauma is important.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.760
You know, what do you have a process around it?
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:04.320
And is it is it a trauma that doesn't leave a scar because you've got a good process?
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:09.519
Or are you fighting with the fact that you're constantly scarring yourself?
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:16.960
And those scars are reminders to that event that takes you back in time to rewurry it and rethink it and refill it.
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:30.800
Um, because scars are you know that you don't want to be a trader with lots of scars, you want to be a trader that's that's on top of these wounds so that they don't become lasting wounds.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:35.360
And do you know what it's not always easy to identify these wounds to see where they come from?
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:39.280
I mean, we we have them throughout our life growing up, they shape us and make us, isn't it?
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.239
I mean, yeah, you need to go through the experience of it.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.719
That's why some of people sort of come into trading without the experience.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:52.800
Well, you kind of you need to go through several cycles of this to kind of work it out.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.639
Otherwise, it just makes no sense.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:03.840
Yeah, I I do tell people who come to to me for coaching that haven't had, you know, minimum two to three years in the market, you know, often often a bit longer.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:10.960
Because I mean, first of all, I think before you start working with a coach and dealing with with this stuff, you have to learn the foundations, the technical stuff.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:17.280
But then you need to have had the hits, the bruises, that you've got to bear some scars, and then we've got something to start talking about.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:17.679
Yeah.
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:18.159
Okay.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:21.440
And you'll be trying to learn how to adjust and adapt to that.
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:45.920
Um, and I do have certain clients who I've worked with for years who will come after they've hit a big speed bump and we'll try and unpick their trading back to the point where this started to happen, and then we'll try and unpick what that particular instant was and what the score was, and you know, and then how that's manifesting in what they're doing now, and you know, and how that shapes their current.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:51.679
And actually going through that then frees them and lifts them out of it, and they suddenly start making money again.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:40:05.039
Um, and it, you know, you can find people who don't normally have fear in their trading who can suddenly become very fearful for what appears no reason for them, but once we can link it back to something, they can often move on it.
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.960
So so again, you know, this this one bad hit can fragment the whole story.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:14.079
I think it is important, it's important to recognise the fact that we're not all perfect.
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.000
Well, I don't think any of us are perfect.
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.320
So, no, no, no, you're the exception there, Mark.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:22.480
I'm gonna pass up you you're the exception, but I think most of us aren't perfect.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:27.119
Don't beat yourself up if you suddenly get a hit that you don't deal with appropriately.
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:28.800
That's normal, that's normal.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.000
That that that is life.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.039
You say in Djokovic where you whack it, you whack your racket against the net and all sorts of chaos.
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:49.039
And he's got the most uh mindfulness strategy of of many people, but you know, sort of have yourself a bit of room that occasionally you might need to guess think, okay, except I guess need to relearn that process.
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.480
So yeah, we're not all perfect, and don't give yourself up.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.800
It's not just humanity, we're dealing with uncertainty as well.
00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.880
So, you know, to expect us to be able to solve an impossible answer.
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.519
Why I see her talking about it and saying you've got to and have to, you must do this.
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:20.480
Yeah, we know that uh life can um throw things that that do get you down, but um it's it what we've talked about today hopeful hopefully gives some structure around well how how perhaps I can prepare for it and deal with it better.
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:21.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:28.880
So so as a takeaway from that that third one, the the identity hit and one bad hit can fragment the whole story.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:39.679
You know, there's no easy answer to these, but you know, you you want to be trying to separate that specific bad trade from the whole process, which is as I said, this is what some of my clients would do.
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:56.000
They'll come and talk about it and try and get close to what it is, name precisely what went wrong rather than letting one loss quietly rewrite the entire story so that you end up going, I can't trust myself anymore, or I can't trust myself with risk.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.559
Um, so that's that takeaway on the third one.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.320
Now the fourth one.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.239
Um talking about it is not enough on its own.
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:10.079
This this is what Van this is what Van der Koopt's kind of central clinical argument is.
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:24.000
The the top-down approaches, such as talk the therapy, understanding your story through an intellectual lens, um they're helpful, they're often necessary, but alone they're not sufficient.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:36.559
Real change also needs bottom-up work, approaches that engage how we're feeling, how our body's reacting, how our nervous system is working, okay.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:41.440
And and and this is where the mind and body work is done, okay.
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:48.400
Um you know, the coaching, the grounding of self, the breath work, you know, this really starts to make a difference.
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:55.039
I'm gonna hand over to you um very quickly, Mark, um in a second.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:02.639
But first I want to talk about because we haven't really spoken about this, the uh the golf open recently, the British Open, won by Ryan Fox.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:10.559
Um fast that even the TV cameras couldn't catch up with his winning shot and missed the start of his final part.
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:12.960
It was incredible to see.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:24.000
Um, but he he talks, he talked afterwards about the breath work he's done, and between shots, just walking to the next shot and counting his breath.
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:26.559
Yeah, so he silences the mind.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:29.039
Well, I can I well I can add to that.
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:47.760
So early 80s, um, I got invited on a Network golf day, and there was this, and I was you know, early 20s, and there was this I don't know, he must it must have been 60, but he might have been 40, he could lose a sense of age, you know, when you're that age.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.559
And um, he was a fantastic golfer.
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:55.920
And in between shots, he was bird watching.
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:57.119
I mean, it was just ridiculous.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.679
He had a bit of binoculars track to his bag, and he so he played.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:10.639
Golf shot, and where most golfers you know were sort of thinking about their next shot, he was bird watching, and it's remarkable there's a woodpecker up in that trail with 18 miles of birdwatching.
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:23.119
But you could kind of work it out in the end that he was not thinking about golf at all, and he was using tuning into his senses, and I think you know it's kind of a relaxing thing, observing.
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:30.400
You tend to calm yourself down by observing and paying attention and listening to sounds and you know try trying to be curious.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:40.880
It's all part of you know a mindful walk in a way, and it wasn't about breath, although his breath would have been slower, his heart rate would have been slower because he was involved in that type of practice.
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:46.400
And he turned up to his next shot as fresh as a daisy and didn't do a practice stroke.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:49.039
And I think it was a four handicap or something.
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:50.639
It was just ridiculous.
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.719
So it was much in the way that you've mentioned here.
00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:02.559
It's the what you do in between the action was was really, really important.
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:14.559
Um, you know, I thought I was smart enough at the time to notice that because I was already on my own journey all those decades ago that was emerging as to my methodology of managing me.
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:21.519
But you could tell it's the action was one thing, but it was the action was defined by what you did before the action.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:35.360
And in golf, as you mentioned about Ryan, it was counting the breath, and that of course would have made presence, it was reducing heart rate, it was calming the system and giving him mental energy to just turn up and do what he did.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:36.400
Phenomenal, wasn't he?
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.920
Even on the what was he, world top 50, world top 70?
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:45.280
Um, but it was great that you mentioned that, and I don't think he's unusual.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:59.360
It's great that you talked about it, and I think that if you talk to many of these top performers, they will all mention something around breath work, something around how they breathe, when they breathe, how they use the breath to guess.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.679
We knew it was a huge thing for Federer, wasn't it?
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:02.320
Massive.
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:08.960
And I think, yeah, Djokovic and I think high performers, you know, elite performers.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.000
I think is it um Taylor Swift?
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:13.920
And you know, they they do a lot of this stuff.
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:21.440
Well, but I mean England World Cup team had uh meditation system, Williams, all the F1 teams, yeah.
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:27.280
Uh absolutely all the drivers I'm you know, Nico Rosberg's commented, I'll say again on my LinkedIn post, Mr.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.800
Nico Roseberg.
00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:31.519
Um great advice, Mark Randall.
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.000
Um, but so yeah, he's all over it.
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:46.559
All of these people are all over this stuff that unfortunately a lot of blokes, I say blokes in the world of trading, kind of laugh at thinking, oh that's a bit girly, that's a bit about emotional intelligence.
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:50.480
Oh, I won't, I won't really, you know, do I really want to be seen to be doing that?
00:46:50.559 --> 00:47:06.480
But wake up, you know, wake up the world's greatest performers bit in what are they doing in terms of performance, are doing this stuff for a reason, and they're doing it because they can be slightly ahead of themselves in terms of presence.
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:18.480
They're dealing with disappointment and moving on from it rapidly, and they realize that disappointment's gonna come, and the things that traders can learn from that by embracing that philosophy.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.599
I mean, it can change your game, it can change your PL.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:31.599
Yeah, and it this this is, you know, I you know, I always talk about the importance of doing, you know, the physical and the practical work to make yourself better.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:33.679
Journaling is one of the best, okay.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.920
Um, maybe do some post-mortem analysis in the planning and preparation.
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:44.480
Um, you know, uh a lot of people now are using AI reflective coaching um to help them.
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:49.199
They're talking things out and seeing what patterns are coming back from their AI machines.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:53.199
Um, these are really helpful, but that they're also limited, they're outside in.
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.760
We have to understand that there is only so much you can do.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:00.719
This is the mirror, and you look in the mirror alone doesn't resolve things, okay?
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:03.119
You know, there's my reflection now what?
00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:09.119
Okay, useful, but they don't necessarily switch off a body that's still floods with adrenaline.
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:18.800
No, it's it's very interesting you say that because what what they're not doing, they're not listening to the tone of what you've just asked.
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:35.119
It's not looking at your body language in response to things as you go about you know the conversation, the dialogue, which of course, in a real you know physical coach is uh you know a paying attention to response as well.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:39.280
And of course, AI doesn't do that, it's chucking out some some some logic.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:44.079
And I've done the same thing, and some of it's led down rabbit holes that are difficult to get out of, right?
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:46.400
And you think, where's it going with this conversation?
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.159
This you know, I'm gonna end this.
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:52.880
Um, and so it's it's not going into your soul.
00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:06.559
No, no, it doesn't understand you and your response, and or that you've just raised an eyebrow to a comment where you think, okay, he's not, you know, that that's not landing well, or he's questioning that.
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:08.800
Um AI can't do that.
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:25.519
Uh I'm sure to go down the line there by all sorts of things that it can do, but it's not it's it's not able to get into your soul and to monitor in real time your response to certain things as it as it communicates with you.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:28.800
It's what I call the limits of intellectuality, okay?
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:36.320
You know, we can only talk out so much, we can only reflect so much, we can only look at our reflection so long.
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:38.559
That's only the tip of the iceberg.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:39.519
Yeah, it's useful.
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:45.599
To use a metaphor, it's useful, it's it's essential, but it has to, you know, it works best with something else.
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:48.800
So, you know, breath work's an example of doing something for the body.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:51.119
Mindfulness, that's stuff you can do yourself.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:52.800
Okay, it steals the mind.
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.840
Okay, the deliberate reset, okay.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:01.679
So physical routines before, during, and after big sessions are held.
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:19.360
You know, they they add something, you know, but trying to improve say basic somatic awareness, bodily awareness, which is what coaching does a lot of, you know, making people conscious of all these in, you know, what's going on within them, what's going on around, how these are coming together um to impact your trading.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:32.320
Well, you say it's gonna center, I think it's gonna button there because I was coaching somebody the other day who I then refused to coach for the rest of the session because I said, You're exhausted, you're just looking exhausted.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:38.239
Yeah, whatever conversation we're gonna have, you're gonna give me the wrong response because you look a bit stressed.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.480
And as a coach, you can make that cool, right?
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:53.280
You yeah, it might somebody might be interacting with AI at the wrong time because they're suffering or they've got trauma, and so they're a little bit vulnerable.
00:50:53.440 --> 00:51:09.519
And AI is not gonna give a monkeys of your state, but as coaches, we're looking at that and we're thinking there are moments we think, actually, let's let's stop this conversation now because you know I think AI coaching has been a brilliant addition for people.
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:16.639
Um, and I encourage my clients to do it, but also to put a limit on it as well, to understand its limitations.
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:36.400
In fact, one of my clients he he downloads our conversations, the scripted them into his AI machine, he downloads his trading performance, his reflections on his trading, and then he he asks it to identify patterns, what it's noticing, you know, to sort of you know what he needs to be aware of.
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:42.559
Um, and then he he says, you know, what's a good thing for me to take to Steve for our next conversation after a while.
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:43.920
You charge him for that.
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:44.719
Yeah.
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:57.119
But the funniest one was he turned around to me one day and he said, I was putting all this into AI, I was stuck, it was things weren't working out, and eventually I went, it was Claude just went, Oh Steve.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.559
Perhaps you should call Steve, set up a session.
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.400
And I was like, Yeah, recommended by Claude.
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:10.639
Um so anyway, this brings us to the, you know, that that's the takeaway, really.
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:17.599
You know, it's it it goes beyond that, it goes beyond intellectualizing, it goes beyond the mind and into the body.
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:23.599
Okay, do that work and examine that work and explore that work because that's the hardest stuff to understand.
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:28.400
Okay, which brings us to the final, the fifth takeaway, okay.
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:31.679
Um, and I think you're really gonna like this one, Mark.
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:38.320
Okay, it's safety in relationship is what lets the system recalibrate.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.119
Okay.
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.960
We are people, we are human, we are social beings.
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:50.079
That's probably the the core essence of being human is connection to other people.
00:52:50.639 --> 00:53:04.079
Okay, one of the most uh quoted lines in the book is is being able to feel safe with other people is probably the single most important aspect of mental health.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:17.840
Okay, co-regulation, the feeling sense in the presence of calm, attuned persons is often what allows a diseulated nervous system to reset more than any technique practiced alone.
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:35.519
And I'm gonna take this a step further, okay, because a few years ago um I did a course on uh sort of particular philosophy that I follow in my coaching and my the field of psychology that I'm into is called gestell psychology.
00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:43.760
Um and there was this course being run on gestell and trauma, um, a series of trauma workshops.
00:53:44.880 --> 00:54:01.039
And one of the things that really stood out to me from it is was and then they were talking about the trauma of addiction, like mainly people who've been through various addictions, drink drugs, alcohol, sex, and sugar, and many other sort of addictions.
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:15.119
And uh what they were arguing was the the the cigarette or the alcohol itself wasn't the addiction, it grew out of the connection.
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:29.039
These people started being in places where they were connected safely to other people, they were no longer judged, okay, they were no longer it wasn't a painful experience, it was a pleasant experience.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:48.480
So they were saying, you know, these people who often were had gone into drugs at an early age, or if you look at where people become impressionable and start smoking, it's as we're becoming young adults where we need companionship, where we need to be approved by our peers and accepted, and you fall into a crowd that accepts you.
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.039
And what are some of the habits of that crowd?
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:52.000
Smoking.
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:54.559
That's what gets you accepted by the crowd.
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.199
Okay, you do it because other people are doing it.
00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.840
Drugs, it's what gets you accepted as a crowd.
00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:14.960
And then the real hit actually comes from being accepted by the crowd, not from the drug itself, but uh we then associate the drug taking with a hit and we try to recreate that pleasure, and that's where the addiction starts.
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:19.360
And that's a very simplistic explanation of it, possibly too simplistic.
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:27.199
But I was fascinated by that, and it really helped me understand just how true connection is.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:40.800
And this comes back to the idea of trading, how we often go into ourselves and it becomes a really lonely we we get lost in our head, a really lonely experience, even when we're surrounded by others.
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:44.880
Interesting.
00:55:45.440 --> 00:56:08.480
What's coming to my mind as you say that is perhaps it's sort of the early parental guidance of actually mix mixing with the right crowd, or not mixing with the wrong crowd, and how you can look at perhaps peers that have come from school and look at all their different directions, and you can see people that clearly mixed with the wrong crowd and the disasters that come with that.
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:18.079
Um, but also um, you know, mixing with the right crowd and you know what what that uh gives us an opportunity.
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:20.559
Sometimes we perhaps don't have a choice.
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:26.079
Um but if you look at the world of trading, you kind of do have a choice.
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:36.800
So, you know, being in an appropriate community, um where there's professionals guiding it, um, listening to right podcasts.
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:45.039
I mean, listen to podcasts with people with experience talking about it because this is a kind of community as well, in a in a way.
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:47.280
Um and so we have a choice.
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:56.239
I mean, that we know there's a lot of traders out there that are choosing the wrong type of people to learn from, that are listening to the wrong type of intuition.
00:56:56.800 --> 00:57:05.039
Um, and that sort of fits into you know, social media is not called social media for a reason, it's kind of part of your social sphere.
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:13.920
Um, but going back to, and I guess you also sort of highlighted that bad habits can come from it.
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:21.199
Um, but I will remind you of that sound bite that uh I used at some of our big corporate presentations of this.
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:47.440
There was this corporate of like 200,000 people, and they they tried to analyse where the uh the the less stress was in their business, and it was the people that were smoking because they, without permission, stepped up, went for a break outside, had a social chat, had a smoke, you know, connected with people for normally non-business communication, then went back to their desk.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:55.599
I know that obviously smoke smoking is is is hugely dangerous, but they, from a stress point of view, were the least stressed people.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:24.400
Um, and you mentioned about the fact that we do need to make sure we have that social connection um and make use of it because it's important that we um you know maintain our sense of self and maintain our sense of controlling our amygdala by you know, I think it enjoys the fact that we're sat in a social chat, it's reducing stress, it's making us a bit calmer, and then we go back to the fight.
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:49.039
So, yeah, so social connectivity is super important, and you know, my my my warning would be for people just make sure you're in the right trader social group that you choose carefully what channel you listen to, you know, rat rather than believe in someone that's been in the market for five years talking about you know being experts in their field, give you a clue.
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:51.440
I don't even think COVID was five years ago now, was it?
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.400
It's now six years ago, the start of COVID.
00:58:54.639 --> 00:59:03.519
Um, you know, choose who you liaise with in your journey for you know building your trading experience and being guided.
00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:04.880
And often have a partner.
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:06.960
I think that's why a lot of people come to coaching.
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:17.199
You know, a lot of my clients I've worked with are, you know, interestingly, a lot of them are solo traders um come to me, and you know, some of them have been with me five, six, seven years now.
00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:35.679
Well, same with me, you guys think you just need this they appreciate the sounding board, they appreciate uh, I guess also an off-ramp, you know, for maybe someone to talk through a difficulty to let go of it appropriately.
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:40.639
I hear them saying it out loud, it changes everything, or even that someone's just listening to them.
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:52.960
Yeah, well, a trader alone with their PL and in their own head is often the worst resource that being alone in your orders, the worst resource environment for recalibrating after a hit.
00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:56.000
The relief of having a discussion about it.
00:59:56.719 --> 00:59:57.360
I'm okay now.
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:01.039
I've talked it through with whoever, you know, Steve with Mark.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:10.480
Um, and of course, that's almost an indirect service, isn't it, that we're that we're providing as part of the of that relationship.
01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:16.000
But it's not you alone against the world anymore, it's you and a supporter, yeah, someone with you on the journey.
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.440
In fact, you often see this with high performers, you know.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:23.039
For the Beatles, the Beatles, it was Epstein's.
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:25.440
I just saw the Sinatra show a few weeks ago.
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:27.119
It was George Evans, his promoter.
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:31.360
Yeah, and I was Billy Holiday was featured in that, and for her, it was Joe Glazer.
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:38.239
And a lot of these people kind of almost fall apart after they lose this support person because they're they're doing high-level performance.
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:39.280
Okay.
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:43.119
So, you know, this is so key.
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:55.599
But you know, so so you know, real really, you know, this is the takeaway, and it's this is where you know, we I I know people feel we sometimes push coaching.
01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:00.159
We don't push coaching at all on these calls, but we try not to, we try not to sell ourselves.
01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:05.920
But you know, we're big believers in this, obviously, because we see the impact it has to people.
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:11.840
We've been through it ourselves, we've been coached, and uh we know the positive effect it has.
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:16.960
Any any thoughts about that?
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:19.440
No, you've summed it up very, very well.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:22.480
It's um if you don't have a partner, go find one.
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:26.320
Uh, you know, if you feel that you're alone, go find the appropriate community.
01:01:26.719 --> 01:01:40.320
Um, it's part of you know, psychologically, it's nice to guess feel that you're talking it through with other people of the experiencing similar things, and you can share and at least talk about it, and you know, people will listen.
01:01:40.480 --> 01:02:01.760
Um, it's really important because ultimately you're guess trying to feel, oh, it's okay to be the this way because you know, other people are feeling this way, and this is how they've um you know, in their own journeys have dealt dealt with it and sharing experience is and you're gonna get the here shared experience by being part of a group that you can trust, yeah.
01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:10.480
So choose carefully, you've and I guess evaluate if you're on in a community at the moment, guess evaluate is this the right community for me?
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:15.519
And you know, do I feel comfortable in even sharing my experiences?
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:17.840
If you don't, then change community.
01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:23.599
And certainly do not get stuck inside your own head.
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:34.960
And here's the one here's the one problem with that just when we're stuck inside our own head, we don't have the clarity unless we are forced to to start thinking like that.
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:39.440
It's uh we're in a trap, that's why we go into these doom loops.
01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:46.320
We retreat, we do the very thing that we shouldn't be doing.
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:49.360
Just a green-eyed monster takes over.
01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:50.079
Yeah.
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.760
So listen, any any thoughts to just bring this to a close, Mark?
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:55.599
No, I think it's a worthwhile subject.
01:02:55.760 --> 01:03:11.280
I think we uh we did our typical tube blokes down the pub talking about it, which you know, we we we talk from experience and we've shared some things I think that are going to be quite important for people to take away and uh you know apply to their own journey.
01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:18.079
We we've you know we we know that the soft stuff is important, most people ignore it.
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:25.119
So don't ignore it because you're ignoring something that's your underlying physiology.
01:03:25.519 --> 01:03:29.360
Um it's actually the hard stuff.
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:34.400
Yeah, and it and this time we call it the soft stuff, it's the hard stuff.
01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:43.440
Yeah, a bit that people find a really hard to do, and b, even though they know it's important, they'll go, I'll deal with it later.
01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:48.320
I've got I've got fires to fight before I go there.
01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:59.440
Yeah, I've gotta I've got to put my energy into technical analysis, maybe attending another technical analysis conference, maybe see some speakers on the oil market talking.
01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:00.400
That's more important.
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:02.400
I've got to know where the market's going now.
01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:03.840
That feels urgent.
01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:10.719
I've got to deal with with everything that's happening in the next uh 24 hours, seven days.
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:12.159
I've got to be ahead of it.
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:19.280
Okay, I've got to make sure that I'm constantly got my eye on truth social at the moment or whatever it is, you know.
01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:24.880
Um, I've got I've got everything is geared towards that short moment.
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:34.000
So that we're dealing with the urgent at the expense of the important, and we're putting all our energy into the urgent at the expense of the important.
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:46.639
And it's the important that actually, you know, a few years down the line, if you've changed and move forward that you've dealt with, and if you haven't dealt with it, it's a few years down the line.
01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:51.280
You're looking back and going, I haven't grown at all, I haven't moved on, I haven't.
01:04:51.440 --> 01:05:05.519
I'm just constantly fighting um however many trading days are a year, 220 chase of short-term uh noise, and not working on myself becoming a better trader, transforming, growing.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:08.480
Not not about me because I'm the person.
01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:18.639
And here's the thing is that the market doesn't care about your story, but your body is keeping the score whether you're listening to it or not.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:23.360
That's what's hurting you.
01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:28.719
Brilliant, what a lovely chat.
01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:29.679
Great.
01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:32.079
Well, listen, it's great to be back.
01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:35.920
We're gonna be back quite a bit more over the next uh few months.
01:05:36.079 --> 01:05:41.760
We've got some great guests already being lined up and uh subjects to talk about.
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:47.519
Um, do feel free to send us an email if any of this resonates with you.
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:54.159
Info at alpha-mind dot net is uh is no it's the place to go.
01:05:54.320 --> 01:06:02.400
You can go to um our website page, alpha-mind.net, to find out more about how to contact us as well.
01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:13.360
Um and uh yeah, it's been great being back out here talking to you, the audience on the uh subjects we know that matter to you and that we love you.