The ADHD Reframed Project: So, hello, good afternoon, good evening, good morning. Welcome to the ADHD Reframe Project with me, host Emma. ⁓ And yeah, this is exciting because we're on season two now. So today I am joined by Asoya Moray. Would you like to just do a little bit of an introduction to yourself, please?
Osayomore: So hello everyone, I'm Osai Mara. I'm a pharmacist and specializing in ADHD. And yeah, I'm joining Emma today for our chat.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So you work specifically with ADHD people don't you? So what is it exactly that you do do?
Osayomore: Yes, I do. So I work as a ADHD specialist pharmacist. So I review patients and prescribe and titrate patients, help them manage side effects and just in general, not just medication sides, but also just far ⁓ psychoeducation and helping them thrive really.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So how did you get into that then? It's fascinating.
Osayomore: Yeah, it is actually. so I've I've been a pharmacist for eleven years roughly. So I have done community pharmacy, did a bit of health and justice, GP surgery, and then so I've always kind of been in the space of social media as well. So back in when I finished university, I started a website ⁓ where I document my journey as a pharmacist. So I've kind of always been on social media and then recently came across a report, I'll probably say maybe about two years ago, came across about a report about the increased number of misinformation on the internet about medical conditions, especially mental health, ADHD. And that was when that sparked my interest really on ADHD. And then I started to specialise, I've done my training a bit more like a a deep dive into ADHD and how to manage patients with ADHD. And yeah. So it's just made I would say the sheer amount of misinformation out there got me motivated to try and put in more ⁓ evidence based information out.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So how has that kind of, what steps have you taken to get more information, like specific information out to ADHD people that need it regarding medication?
Osayomore: So regarding medication, I do spend a lot of time on my LinkedIn lately posting about ⁓ medication on there. ⁓ I do a couple of videos, not so much as as much as I can, because I'm still working. So I'm still working full time. So I try to to fit it all in. It's it's a bit of it's crazy over here as well. You know, just before we start recording, we're talking about how we're juggling different things.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, yeah. And also talking about welcome to the madhouse, AKA me. So do you specifically prescribe anti-trait? ⁓ Yeah, that's what you've just said, isn't it? Sorry, my brain is just a bit distracted this week.
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, that's what I do. So I tell prescribe. So usually I would see patients post diagnosis. So when they get diagnosed, then I'll run their first initial consultation. And following our conversation, we could decide which part we're taking if we're going down the stimulant parts or the non stimulants, and then I would prescribe and typically do a review in four weeks' time. see how they're getting on with it, if they need to increase the dose or reduce it, ⁓ if they're experiencing any side effects and if they think it's working for them, if they want us to try something else. And yeah, we're just so typically there. That's a standard day.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So yeah, you've obviously just said like stimulant and non-stimulant. Now I know ADHD medication is something that lot of people don't really want to talk about. It's very controversial and it's very, it's a very personal, it's a very, very personal thing for each person. So say for instance, I came to you, I was diagnosed in 2019, age 43. So for instance, I've been assessed, I'm diagnosed and then I come to you.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And then like as a woman, because I know that there's just no kind of, there's no, I'm going off on a tangent now. ⁓ So yeah, what would the first steps be? You talked to me about kind of the different medications and how they work and is it different for men and women is I think what I wanted to ask.
Osayomore: Ha The straight answer to that would be no. So the NISE guidelines, which we use here in UK, which is obviously what we would every prescriber in in UK would use, ⁓ recommends our first line treatment as metophenidate. So that's the same for everyone, whether you're a man or a woman. There are differences obviously in terms of how we would respond to it, but just like every medication, everyone has different genetics, different biological, environmental factors that affects how you respond to a medication. And should I say fortunate for us women? We've got the hormones also in play, which tends to also affect ⁓ ADHD symptoms and how you would respond to the medication. So we do find like sometimes maybe a particular time of the month women would need an extra dose to maybe tie them over, or they can find that their medication is not working as well as it did a couple of weeks ago. Well, that it's tends not to be the case in men. So that might be like the sort of differences. But in terms of picking the tablets, it's it's all the so it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. It's more like ⁓ because so I'll use metal phylate, for example, is just a stimulant. It's more what part of the day do you struggle with more because then you could get like immediate release that works for four hours and then you're fine, or you could get like if you work longer shifts, maybe you might need something that works up to twelve, thirteen hours, then that would help us decide. So ⁓ back to your original questions about if you got diagnosed and you were sent to me, what would happen? So normally in a typical consultation obviously would be how you're getting on, if you had any questions about your diagnosis, if you had concerns, if you understood why, you know, you were diagnosed with either combined or if it was predominantly hyperactive or so we would discuss that and and have a chat about that. We would discuss about Different options on the table, so the stimulants and the non-stimulants. And some people actually tend not to want medication, maybe they just wanted some education on over it, or we could discuss strategies. ⁓ we could discuss maybe putting structure in place as to going down the pharmacological path. So they are other things, and quite honestly, ⁓ research has shown that ADHD treatment is more of a multimodal treatment, so it doesn't actually respond to just one thing. It could, you know, medication could be the a piece of the puzzle, but it's not the whole puzzle. So even if you're on medication, we still discuss having structural and organizational prioritizing things and having a bit more focused time. So we do have conversation about that. If you do choose to go down the medication part, then we talk about side effects because unfortunately that's something that can be associated as well. And with ADHD treatment, the goal is to get the optimal v response from the drug without Getting side effects. So they go hand in hand. So we spent some time talking about that. And there are steps as well that you could take to manage side effects. So you can still take the medication and still get the benefits of the medication, but with minimal side effects. So that can that would be something we would discuss as well. It's really important not to feel pressured when you're spending time with your medical prescriber. It's very important to think about. the treatment goals that you want because again you're not going to start taking a treatment and voila everything is sorted it still you know it still takes time so it's it's good to set expectations it's good to have treatment goals and I don't want to go too clinical but it's also good to have like a baseline so we check things like your blood pressure your height your weight all those matters before we proceed to prescribe make sure that it's safe ⁓ medical history if you're taking any other medications how they would interact what effect you're you're hoping ⁓ the the two medications could result to and how we could better manage that. So we spend time talking about that as well. It typically would take maybe 50 minutes to an hour of conversation before we decide to proceed to ⁓ prescribe medication. And yeah, that's typical. And then we book in a follow-up appointment in four weeks time, see how you're responding to the treatment and then we can take it from there.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Do you know what, really, I was just thinking, like, just listening to you explaining that, like, it's really nice to see someone who doesn't have ADHD talk so passionately about ADHD. I don't know, just, or I know we're talking about medication and so, yeah, but it's really, it is really nice because a lot of the time I kind of look for ADHD people to talk on the podcast, but I've kind of started thinking in the last few months, I need to kind of start branching out.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So having guests that don't have ADHD but may support or work. So it was, it's really nice for me to just see that passion coming through you as you're talking about it. But I know, but, I know, but.
Osayomore: There is quite a number of us out there. There is you know. I know what you mean. I feel like ⁓ and and even on my ⁓ LinkedIn page, I've started a new, you know, series about myths of ADHD. And I think it's really important that we talk about it because one of the ones that you get is well, everyone has ADHD, or you know, it or maybe you could hear like ADHD is not a real condition, you know, so you you you you could hear things like that. And it's really, really important that we have those conversations and we clear it out that ADHD is actually a neurodevelopmental condition, right? We know that, research has proven that to us, you know, we've we probably have ⁓ people with ADHD in our household or really close in our cycle. So we've we've had lived experiences as well. So it's really important that we share that ⁓ information out so everyone is aware of it and ⁓ and not make stereotype comments or
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah.
Osayomore: Or dismissive comments about it. I should say.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I'm glad also you said that even if you do prescribe medication and the patient doesn't have it's a positive effect. It doesn't necessarily mean that all of the ADHD symptoms are going to go away. And so I like you may have ⁓ slightly said it in a different way to me. But yes, so what ⁓ what is the ⁓ difference between it?
Osayomore: No, yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the stimulant medication and non-stimulant medication, please.
Osayomore: Okay. So in terms of the the differences with with the stimulant medication, so the stimulant medication so works on the chemicals like the dopamine in the central nervous system. So there's more I know people get concerned about if ⁓ that might cause addiction or ⁓ if if it's ⁓ how do I ⁓ trying to get my words straight. So I know there's been a lot of conversations around stimulant, but it's almost like saying coffee. Coffee is a stimulant, right? And people do drink coffee. And I know that there's a misconception as well because you say you need to have a medication break. People then assume that it's because of a negative thing. But actually historically is because people ⁓ had symptoms worse at at some particular time. So if you're in school for instance, you know, but then on the summer holiday you're not longer in school, you you probably then would cope better with your symptoms, but it's not because it was addictive ⁓ to you. So in terms of picking the choices, again, it's just a personal preference. Some people might want to avoid that, which is fine. And ⁓ I would say maybe the the key major difference would yeah, would be the way ⁓ how it works. So with the stimulum working in in the central nervous system directly on the on the dopamine receptors.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And what about the non-stimulant medication? Sorry, I've got a bit distracted because it's just done a big clap of thunder here. So I apologize if you... Sorry, but... yeah, the non-stimulant medication works on the central nervous system, the non-stimulant medication.
Osayomore: ⁓ and No, that's absolutely fair. So we have ⁓ the non-stimulant medication, which is the atom ⁓ atomoxphane. So it's a little bit slower in the terms that you probably need to take it for at least two to three weeks to start to notice an effect. It could all it could even be more ⁓ before you notice an effect from it. So that's one I don't want to use the word downside. That's just one thing to consider that could be different. It'll it works on the receptor no ephedrine as well. So it is slightly different, but it's still a chemical that is ⁓ is being used. ⁓ I would say In terms of mechanism of action, I'm trying to think of ⁓ the best way to explain it. without sounding too too ⁓ clinical.
The ADHD Reframed Project: You can sound clinical if that's the only way you can explain it. I mean, I don't mind. I'm sure the listeners won't mind either.
Osayomore: Let's let's see, yeah, okay. So we could try, let's try using maybe an airport. So imagine the brain is like an airport, a busy airport, right? And the planes coming in, planes taking off, that's all like the different symptoms, so all the tasks that you have to do and and distractions and everything else, right? And the tower house, that's that's what controls it. So that's what says flight A, you can land in this terminal or you can go over to the next terminal. That's it. So the problem in ADHD is that tower doesn't have doesn't receive the appropriate signals. It doesn't get enough or if dopamine is there, it the body reuptakes it really quickly. It doesn't give the message a chance to fully transmission before it it disappears. So the the ⁓ the tablet metaphenidate would work by increasing that dopamine level in the tower house or making it stay there longer. instead of creating it. While we atmosphere, which is a non stimulant, it doesn't work in pre ⁓ pre cortex. It doesn't work there in the brain tower. It works a bit lower down. But it gives it also has effects of working in other parts of the brain. So it's a bit less stimulating. I think that's that might be a better way to explain it, I think.
The ADHD Reframed Project: That's great. I love that metaphor or anagram or biology. I don't even know what the right words are. But yeah, I love things like that because then I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I understand that.
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you just you just need it because and it's not ⁓ the tower is not broken because if it's not, you know, send them signals, it doesn't mean you just shut the airport down. It just means you create structure or you create ⁓ safe points for the tower to be able to work it more efficiently.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, we could call it like the radio from the tower to the plains is a little bit is a little bit ⁓ faulty, let's say and you'd need, you know, one right. Yeah.
Osayomore: Yes. And your message is just not being yeah. So they can't just hear, did you say terminal one, did you say terminal two? So you just try and and that's why sometimes you see having post-it notes, right? It helps because you're using a different way of transmitting that information. So you're putting like a little reminder there to say this needs to happen.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, no, it's a great way to explain it. Honestly, I love and ⁓ I do take ⁓ I chose the stimulant route and I take concert or Excel and doctors just drive me mad sometimes. They just do. ⁓ And so what if you have someone that he is considering
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: medication, stimulant medication, without putting them completely off, what are the possible side effects of what that first experience for them would possibly be?
Osayomore: For them. I'll say the most common one we get would probably be loss of appetite. And you know, if you take let's say ⁓ we're using in your case you're taking consata. I'm taking I'm guessing you take it once a day in the morning and it tends to last the ultra day. So you might find that you're not interested in having lunch sometimes. It's not, yeah, so it ⁓ you lose appetite and It's easily managed, I think is the word to say, you know, again with everything. I don't think it's even everything in life, isn't it? Like you weigh your risk versus your benefits. So if you're getting benefit from it, loss of appetite is something that can, you know, be ha can be managed. So I would probably then recommend in the morning you have a hearty breakfast, you know, so you you have your protein, your dairy milk. If you're gonna have a glass of milk or anything like that, it should be a full fat milk. That way you're getting more calories in or yogurt. ⁓ another way around it would be dinner time because with like concerto, for instance, it it would probably last about 12 hours-ish. So if you take it, let's say eight in the morning, you could probably you might not even be hungry about five, four. Your appetite might still be lost. So you might have a bit of a later dinner, like six, seven, but then have like a proper meal, like a proper balanced diet meal. So to account for not eating throughout the day. It also helps to meal prep. sometimes even if you don't have appetite but you have like a nice like sandwich or s or a s a meal in you're more likely then it takes one hodl off you know and then you're more likely to encourage yourself to to eat so loss of appetite can definitely be managed well. another one might be sleep. It might affect sleep. ⁓ and then in that case we just recommend taking it a bit early. So if you're awake at like 7 a.m you could take it then so before it's bedtime it would be out of your system. So then you're more you know, that that can easily be ⁓ handled that way. We also encourage having like a good sleep routine, ⁓ good sleep hygiene in place, trying to avoid the phones. I know I'm bad for it. I wake up and I'm I'm on my phone as soon as I open my eyes, but trying to keep the phone away from the bed so that you can sleep a bit better. ⁓ journaling tends to be really good and helps with sleep. I think it's just the whole idea of taking it off your brain, put popping it on a piece of paper, you're more like you know, you have more of a less noise in the head. to help with sleep and blood pressure it's another one that tends to be ⁓ of concern again keeping an eye i know ⁓ blood pressure is also a tricky one in clinics actually because then people start worrying about their blood pressure that they check it every day and then that itself is like causing like a is that you Emma I'm getting a lot of nuts and then it causes a ripple effect though doesn't it how often do you check your blood pressure
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah and now my blood pressure goes high even I'm sure it increases as soon as I get the cuff thing out to test it at home and they call it know in GP surgeries on medical settings they call it white coat high blood pressure don't they literally I think that's me as well because it's just I'm just like it's yeah and actually and this might not be possible but I have found when I
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: don't have the medication, sometimes my blood pressure is higher. It's weird because I'm having to force myself to do things that might not be medically possible. But I am a little bit of an unusual case.
Osayomore: Do you know what though the first thing that crossed my mind when you said that is I was gonna ask in terms of your symptoms, do you feel like anxiety as well? Because then being anxious could explain why your blood pressure is high. But you know, when you're taking your concerta, for instance, it gives you more of a stable mood. I don't know if you noticed that with your meds, you have more stable mood, you're not as anxious. So that could explain. It might, you know, you we could argue it's not a direct effect, but it's it is an effect like
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah.
Osayomore: Because you didn't take your meds, you're a bit more anxious and then your blood pressure then is higher. Totally makes sense to me.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. But exactly. It makes sense to me. But obviously, sometimes I think medical professionals don't really listen to me. They just are like, ⁓ whatever. And it's like, you know, they've obviously gone to medical school, you've gone to university and done your pharmacy. Did you do a degree in pharmacy before I say it? Yeah, you did. Yeah. And then you've obviously done extra training to be able to kind of prescribe ADHD meds. But yeah, I do think like ⁓
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, because my blood pressure, because ⁓ in the UK after COVID, there was a few years where they couldn't get the stocks of medication in and Concerta was one that was affected by that. And then unfortunately, they tried me on a few other brands and I was just like, no, not at all. And then I actually got COVID really badly.
Osayomore: Mm. Yes, it was a bit of a short page. You didn't get on well with it. Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the first strain of COVID. And then since then, since COVID, like my heart beats quicker than the doctors like it to, but it beats regularly in the same rhythm. It's not like it, you know, it beats at around 90 beats per minute rather than 70 beats per minute. And then, yeah, they messed around with kind of the idiot, no, didn't mess around, you know, kind of having to swap and change the different brands and... other brands not working and then having to kind of just go back and say, I need you to put me back on concert because, know, and thankfully by then the stocks were back in the UK and I was able to get it. But for quite a while, it was a matter of ringing around the different pharmacies in the town where I live and trying to find if they've got that in stock and if they haven't, then you had to go back to the doctors.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And then there was just all of these things that needed extra steps for someone with ADHD, obviously. But anyway, thankfully, that's all in the past, it? And so, yeah, it's just, I love talking. But yeah, I've said to my ⁓ medical professionals, ADHD consultant, I've said like, basically that when, because they reduced, because of these things, they reduced my dosage down.
Osayomore: Mm mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: by half and since then it's like the blood pressure is is being kind of increasing and then they wanted to put me on blood pressure medication and I was like okay it's just another thing and then I finally got up to I think it's 54 milligrams I take now but I need them to be increased because I am well I'm sure I've gone past the perimenopause and I'm in the menopause stage and I had a review with the
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: ⁓ I'm prescribing person. ⁓ Clinician is that what you call them? Clinician. Yes. So yeah. So I had a view last week with my clinician and he said that they don't want to increase the ADHD medication until because I'll take HRT and I've been taking HRT for two or three years now, but I just don't feel like it's working.
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah, clean shape. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: as well as it did. So what he suggested is that you increase ⁓ the HRT and then in six months time, he will then assess or he will then consider kind of increasing the ADHD medication. And I'm like, I just, but everything seems like it's a bit of a battle. And I don't know if the listeners have had experiences with this, but
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: because I have so many other health conditions as well. So I've got complex PTSD, fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, trigeminal neuralgia, like a long list. I used the medical professionals who said to me, yeah, you've got complex medical issues. And I'm like, no, I'm just medically interesting, which is quite a nice little reframing. Yeah.
Osayomore: love that I love that that's a better way to say it. Well actually I want to do I do actually want to say I do would like to offer an apology that you had such an experience and you feel like you're not being heard. ⁓ I feel that it's definitely not ⁓ one of our intentions. I would say as clinicians, like ⁓ we would like to make our patients feel heard. Especially because ⁓ the condition here and in general
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. Yep.
Osayomore: all of us as human beings, we're all unique and we all have different ways that our body and genetics due to genetics like different ways our body will respond to things. So yeah, ⁓ yeah, definitely. I apologize for that. ⁓ but it sounds like is it getting better now, would you say? Are you are you seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? is it
The ADHD Reframed Project: It's a tiny light, let's say, but yeah, I think because I'm currently studying as well, like I noticed that, you know, my, the brain fog and I noticed that my ability to be able to concentrate for any period of time seems to have kind of just this, it's almost, it's not completely gone, but it's just, it's, it's minimal, let's say. So I know for myself that,
Osayomore: Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: you like you said, when you first talked about women and medication, you know, like adding an extra dose in certain parts of the month of their monthly cycle. I think, yeah. I mean, the clinician that I had my review with last week actually didn't know about ADHD and hormonal fluctuations in women, which I'm surprised and I've been shocked to know in the past that my GP actually said to me, you'd be lucky to find someone that does know about both. And I'm like, what do you mean? What? So yeah, it's nice to hear that there's progress has been made in these kind of, in these areas.
Osayomore: Yeah, and I and I think ⁓ maybe it's okay. I think I would like to just chime in to say that it's okay not to know everything because it's practically impossible to know everything. But I feel like ⁓ as clinicians, one thing we really need to do better is to say, I don't know but I'm gonna find out and I think we should normalize that as well. You know, ⁓ it's okay if they've not heard about it, but they definitely have resources to look into it and ⁓ they should know where to find information about it. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, and it and better educate themselves so they can help the the patients. That's the whole point, I think, of being a clinician to be able to help and be of positive influence. ⁓ every day research comes out, every day, you know, something new, we learn something new. ⁓ and yeah, but I think ⁓ it's definitely well known now, I would imagine, that women do react and research has shown is probably ⁓ down to the estrogen levels. And ⁓ yeah, and that's why even in pregnancy symptoms can tend to to to be a bit different. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ it's probably worth saying as well. Maybe your audience might also have different experience. Maybe they they would have had a clinician that was really helpful or maybe they reacted differently. But ⁓ I know just from my experience in community pharmacy. People definitely react to drugs differently, even if it's the same generic ingredients, it could be as little as maybe the dye in the tablet. So it could not it doesn't have to be like the active ingredient. It could all be metal phenidate, but maybe one has sunset yellow dye or another different dye, and that could be what's causing the issue. Yeah, so definitely have an open mind, I would say, and be ready to learn. You said you're in.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, I mean yeah, go on, sorry, no.
Osayomore: Sorry. No, I was just gonna ask, you mentioned you're in in studying university, are you doing an ADHD course or like does it have to do ADHD? Or second?
The ADHD Reframed Project: No, I'm doing psychology. But it's an undergrad psychology and it's kind of grown into something that's now fully focused on ADHD. yeah, because I always wanted to study psychology, but I just never really had the confidence even to consider doing a degree. I study
Osayomore: That's really good. Amazing.
The ADHD Reframed Project: 100 % online so I'm a distance learner and so it's a lot of independent study which for someone with ADHD obviously can be quite challenging because
Osayomore: Yeah. I was gonna say that's not the best type. That is ⁓ you're cause you're you're heavily reliant on your motivation, your spark and you have to, you know, yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: but it's not Yeah, but I have kind of managed to to get some support in place that's been key to my ability to be able to study effectively. So, yeah, I've been quite lucky in the UK through student finance. can get access to disabled students allowance. And although it's taken me nearly two years to find a study skills tutor that that I
Osayomore: That's good.
The ADHD Reframed Project: can work with the lady that I've got at the moment is just phenomenal. Like it's just completely changed. my, yeah. So it was just completely changed. I'm, it's weird because I'm account, once I'm accountable to someone else, then things get done. Whereas if I sit here on my own and I don't have any tasks broken down.
Osayomore: I love it when I speak.
The ADHD Reframed Project: into manageable chunks or if I don't have the accountability then I literally was just it's not even procrastination like I just I get so distracted like with even minimal things that it just kind of yeah I just end up going mad yeah so you know for me it's been about getting specific support put in place but more importantly it's been about
Osayomore: It just takes a yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: trying to learn about what I actually need. And that's been the trickiest bit for me is kind of, you know, because people asked me when I first started studying and I was like, I don't know, I've never done this. I've never done distance learning before. I've never studied a degree. I have absolutely no idea. I've got ADHD. These are the things I find challenging currently. So although it's been a little bit.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: It's been hard work trying to find a study skills tutor. It's also, I think, taught me some really kind of a lot of resilience, a lot of self-advocacy, but also it's enabled me to kind of be able to say, this is what I struggle with and this is what I need. And I think it's not necessarily something that a lot of students maybe would have the confidence to do. So I think if there are any listeners that are...
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: even at school or in higher education or even at work, if you feel overwhelmed and you don't feel able to kind of advocate for yourself, I'd just like to tell you that you can do it because anything is possible. And all we need to do is just we need to kind of show up and ask for what we need. So maybe start by thinking, what do you need to get through your day or what do you need to work or study effectively?
Osayomore: Yeah, that's true.
The ADHD Reframed Project: so yeah, I just, I, I am.
Osayomore: Definitely I echo that. You mentioned body doubling as well and ⁓ it's definitely something, you know, that has has been a game changer for a lot of my clients. Like just being able to and it's and I think it's it's worth mentioning actually just putting it out there, like because it's not only about being accountable but it's also could be about mirroring the person that you're body doubling with. So definitely ⁓ choose the right environment. yeah. How have you found Body Doubling?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Game changer, literally. Like, yeah, because then I'm not just accountable to myself. I'm accountable to people that are going to turn up for the sessions as well. yeah, so, so, yeah, I've just started offering free body doubling sessions on a Monday morning, 10am to 12 noon UK time. I have just started and actually there's been a few attendees
Osayomore: ⁓ yeah, that's right. You do offer sex you do that, don't you? How have you found it? Like so Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: which has been really nice and the feedback has been good. So yeah, again, if the listeners want to book in and come to the, I'm only doing it on Monday to start with for a few hours to see if it's needed and then I'll expand it out. But personally for me, with my studies, the body doubling has been, it's vital, particularly when I'm working on admin or academic writing, which obviously needs.
Osayomore: That's good.
The ADHD Reframed Project: my full focus and my work in memory and every kind of all that executive functioning or executive dysfunction is when it needs to. And I think even for people that work from home or that study from home, like the physical, like even though it's only virtual, but the minute that someone else is on the screen with you and I do it for the project through Teams,
Osayomore: Disfluction?
The ADHD Reframed Project: The minute that someone's there, I don't know, it's weird. It's almost like I just click into work mode. Does that make sense? It's weird.
Osayomore: Yeah. It's almost like a switch. So do you set goals at the beginning of the call?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yes, yeah, yeah, people can set goals. But then again, they don't have to if they don't want to if I haven't got any if I just want to get on, you can have your camera on or off. The only ask is that, you know, everyone stays muted. So then we can just, you know, study our work kind of alongside each other. And then if there's people that attend that may have questions, or may just need a little bit of support, then I can create like a breakout room and they can go into that as well. yeah, people can drop in and drop out as and when they like it's, you know, it's really laid back, really kind of just, it's just, yeah, I try and make it as inclusive for everyone as possible. So yeah, it's been nice because it's only week two this week and there's been a few people that have attended that are not people that I know already, which is amazing because it means that message is then getting out there, isn't it?
Osayomore: Fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah. Love that, you know. You know when you do when you make a post and and people that liked it and not people that are, you know, that you know it's fantastic. It's a fantastic feeling.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Ahem. Yeah, and I want to offer, you know, things like that for free. Because I know, you know, people were in a cost of living crisis, you know, and I've got the I've got the ability to be able to offer the sessions for free. And that's, you know, that's what what because it's not just because I'm offering them for free, it's because they're so beneficial to me. as well. if that is all at the moment, if they if that is all I can offer other people is just the time or the space or the teams, let's say the teams meeting just to turn up and so they can work alongside each other, then you know, if that's that's that's then I'm happy to do that. So yeah, it's just a little. Yeah, I'm still getting used to teams because I'm used to zoom. But yeah, it's yeah.
Osayomore: As well, yeah. That's fantastic, yeah. Definitely. Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Just another one of them things and also for me within my studies another one of them things has been mind mapping So mind mapping literally ⁓ is a game changer. So you got me talking about education now. I'm sorry, but I'm talking about this This is meant to be about human and ADHD medication
Osayomore: Okay. It's fine. It's your podcast. No, it's it's your podcast. We can talk about anything you want to talk about. I remember mind mapping when I was studying pharmacy actually. ⁓ back in school. So it it used to be one of those things that you it could it could go anywhere though, can't it really? Once you start p pulling up the map, you could go anywhere with it.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, exactly. So I got the mind mapping software called mind view through DSA. And I think it's been the most useful, assisted tech software that I have literally is a game changer. So I'll create a new map every module. At the moment, I'm studying occupational psychology and forensic psychology because they're the last two modules of level five.
Osayomore: Okay. Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: but yeah, like literally in the middle, like, you know, whatever the subject is, and then I just add stuff to it as I go along as the weeks go. And then, you know, I've got a branch for introduction, a branch for main body, you know, what, whatever it is that I'm writing two case studies for these two modules. But then the thing that I like about it the most is then whenever, like whenever I'm ready.
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I can just export it straight into a Word document. So whatever I've inputted into the mind map is then on a Word document. And then it just takes that cognitive load away from being able to kind of, yeah, so seriously, know, any students, if you're studying in the UK, or you can probably pay for it. I don't know what the price is, but yeah, highly recommend. And you can get it.
Osayomore: Okay. Amazing.
The ADHD Reframed Project: to set like little timers so you get it to click every time. Because I don't know about other people and with their ADHD, but I do like a little bit of a reward when I've concentrated or done something because it's hard work. And the little kind of reward of seeing the clock kick down, click down, not kick down, to the project being finished is sometimes just, yeah, some.
Osayomore: Yes, yes. When you mentioned about ⁓ the mind mapping, it made me think about also the import in ⁓ why I think mind mapping works why I believe it works really well is because it's personalized and it just it made me think about ⁓ because I was doing some work on creating a personalized planner because I feel you know there's hundreds of planner out planners out there, isn't it? Like you get the minimalistic ones, the fancy looking ones. But they don't tend to work, or you could get them and after three days you don't open them because obviously it's not tailored. And I think that's why my mind map works really well because it's personalized to you. So anything that is personalized to the way your brain works or the way your brain was thinking, when you exported it to a Word document, it was literally just it's it's it's your head there. Literally, it's your brain on that piece of paper. It's just amazing, isn't it? It just takes off the load and it makes it work. And yeah, I think for People listening, if you're worried about tr planning things and getting yeah, try the mind map, try creating a planner for you. You don't have to, yeah, purchase one. Try try just making a you could set, you know, if if you're if you're good in working in blocks, you could do a planner for yourself to work in blocks. If you prefer to work like Ali Stamp or join a body doubling session on Monday with Emma, definitely to get things done. That's another good one. Sorry, just
The ADHD Reframed Project: Tuesday not Monday sorry, Tuesday the bloody devil in here. I don't know whether I said Tuesday or Monday, could have been either of us that said it sorry. But yeah, it could have been either of us. But yeah, mean.
Osayomore: Did you say Tuesday at first or did I get it? Apologies, Tuesday. Yeah. What we're just trying to say is discover what works for you and then work with it. That's what we're getting at.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think one of the main reasons why I do like body, body doubling, I love body doubling, but why I love my maps is because it kind of triggers the creative side of my brain because in my academic writing, the biggest hurdle for me is getting started. So I can, and then sometimes I get kind of lost and even like go off on little tangents and add things and you know, you've just spent two hours trying to write.
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: two or three sentences and that doesn't even need to be included. Whereas if I've got a mind map that's got kind of even just bullet points or minimal information on it, then I get once I've exported it into a Word document, then it's kind of got over that hurdle of trying to get started. so but also it breaks the sections down bit by bit. So that then enables me to be able to just go off and you find the research and whatever else I need to include.
Osayomore: Yes. And doing that gives you another fresh pair of eye like almost you're looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes, right? So you can then quickly think, ⁓ that bullet point doesn't actually fit in here and then it saves you the time that you would have spent, you know, writing it and then taking it off or yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, and it's not just useful for ADHD students, it's useful for everyone. These suggestions are not just if you're neurodivergent or you've got ADHD or whatever, these suggestions are useful. Even for people in work, if you work remotely, if you work at home, if you study at home, it also just stops you feeling isolated or lonely because you've got the physical video, virtual presence of someone else being there, but it's...
Osayomore: Yeah. Yes.
The ADHD Reframed Project: know, if you work fully at home and you don't see a lot of people during the day, then you're going to start feeling quite lonely and that's going to affect your well-being and stuff. So yeah, I think it's really important to just open spaces like the Body Doubling for anyone that needs it. It's not just for ADHD people. ⁓ It's for everyone. So yeah, I'm glad that we've had this little conversation. You get me off on a few little kind of topics and, you know, off we go. And it's like, yes.
Osayomore: ⁓ yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So yeah. Did you want to say something then? I think we both went to say something and I was like...
Osayomore: No, I'm feeling
The ADHD Reframed Project: Sorry, I was just focussing.
Osayomore: No, no, no, that's fine. I lost my train of thought actually. Keep going.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So is there any advice, any suggestions that you would want to give to someone who's just been diagnosed and is considering medication for their ADHD? Yeah, is there anything specific that you'd like to leave the listeners with? I know we've talked about it, but...
Osayomore: Yeah, I I would say one thing I would have I would love everyone to to be aware of is ⁓ mainly because it just it comes up so when I read ⁓ assessments before I I see a patient, there's always this grievance stage that people tend to go through when they get the diagnosis or or people thinking they've maybe wasted a lot of time w not getting diagnosed or let's just say negative thoughts, right? A about it. And I just want to say to everyone listening that ⁓ if you were late diagnosed, ⁓ yes it's a fact that you would feel, you know, sort of maybe a disservice, but it shouldn't be holding your back. You shouldn't be like, ⁓ because I'm in my fifties or sixties, then you know, what's the point? I think ⁓ it's fine that, you know, you just got diagnosed now. You can actually even look look back and be like, I had this issue. I had this neurodevelopment issue and I still, you know, got here. That's a positive. I think we should always look at it in with that light instead of just being negative about it. And ⁓ it's also very important. I think, yeah, so that's the first thing I'll say. I d I feel like ⁓ even you know, even when you read stuff, I don't know about yeah, but when you go around ⁓ LinkedIn you see a lot of like comments like lazy or grieving and I just think it's we don't need to dwell on it. You know, we know it's there, we could just but we just don't need to dwell on it. And then the second thing I would like to say is in terms of going in with the mindset that the medication will fix you or would cure you, because that's tends not to be the case. so instead of trying to fit into a little box and make your brain do what it's impossible, like incapable of doing, just work with your brain. And adapt new skills and learn learn new structures, put things in place that would make life easy. And just like Emma said earlier in terms of the double button, like you don't have to be you don't have to have ADHD, right? A lot of the strategies and the the the support out there, it all makes life easy. Like who doesn't want a beautiful looking mind map on a word document to make writing your project so much easier? Like, so there's there's really positives out there. It doesn't always have to be. What do you think Emma?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah, no, I know. Honestly, I agree. One of the main reasons why I wanted to start doing the podcast was because I was sick and tired of just seeing like negative either misconceptions or, you know, ADHD is horrific or, you know, no, no, or D.A. D.H. I can never say that one properly, but if you have autism and ADHD together, then, you know, it's traumatic and and I just don't I don't kind of like that narrative because I think
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: even within psychological studies and neuroscience, like the negativity, if you think about something in a negative way, then it actually changes the brain structures, like the kind of, and you know, you've done your studying and stuff. And so, yeah, it's just, that's one of the main reasons why I just want it to almost kind of help other people to be able to see themselves positively. And I know everyone's journey is different, but if you've just been diagnosed, then
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: congratulations, welcome to the club is what I would say to start with. And yeah, I think, I don't think it was necessarily a grieving process for me, but I just kind of had lots of light bulb moments where I was like, ⁓ okay. Yeah, and then everything just started making sense slowly over, you know, period of time. then, yeah, now I'm obsessed with ADHD. I talk about it all the time.
Osayomore: Mm. That makes sense.
The ADHD Reframed Project: and everything my whole life revolves around.
Osayomore: I was gonna ask Yes but yeah, you developed a special interest in it now. And then and I like that and I think that ⁓ you can have light bulb moments. You can be like, ⁓ okay, that makes sense. Well it's you don't really have to always be negative about it, like, you know, or feel like it's been such a
The ADHD Reframed Project: My special interest go on
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah. Just look at it from a positive perspective and just think about ways that you could then now now you know, right? So it's not about labeling. You you've been diagnosed, now you know what can you do differently to make it easier for you, to make it more palatable, like to make it more, you know, what what can you do? So I think we should definitely look at it in that way.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And the way that I would explain that would be just learn to harness it so you can reach a full potential, which is pretty much what I try to do every day. And it doesn't always work. You know, there are some days where I just think I'm just not going to try anything because it's not that it's impossible. It's just that my brain just won't like, it won't allow me to do. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's like.
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah, no, no, no.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I just choose not to give myself a hard time if I if I get up in the morning and I try and kind of maybe write some of my case study and I just can't think straight and so then I'll just try and do something different that doesn't take up that high level of cognitive load in my brain and stuff.
Osayomore: It's okay, Emma. Actually, that's okay. There's no price out there or a trophy, I should say, there's no trophy out there for a burnout Emma. Like why, you know, if if you're not Optory, you're not optery and there's no you're not in a competition with, you know, anyone there. So if if this morning it's it's it's looking like a slow morning, it is a slow morning. We'll just do, you know, yeah, we'll just keep it slow and we try again tomorrow. And it's
The ADHD Reframed Project: Exactly.
Osayomore: And I think actually I should probably add this that ⁓ it is worth mentioning that they are people on medication successfully, you know, and they can still have a rough day. So it doesn't mean that because you're taking like your medication and or you have the strategies in place and you're doing all the right thing, it's still possible to have a rough day.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. Yep, exactly. And I just think as well, like get inquisitive, like learn how your symptoms present or manifest, you know, learn how your symptoms are. It's about learning about what the things that you find challenging and then trying to put, ⁓ like your own reasonable adjustments in place or, you know, self-advocacy. And it's all about kind of just showing up for yourself, I think.
Osayomore: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Like I say to anybody, like staff within my university, that if they want me to do something, I need specific kind of list and timeframe. So I need a bullet pointed list of what I need to do. And also I need to know how long I've got to do before it's done. If it needs doing that makes sense. that is kind of helped me in my personal life as well. you know,
Osayomore: Mm. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And the more ⁓ that I kind of do it, think the more it empowers other people to do it as well. And it's not just because I've got ADHD, it's just because I need that. I need, because time is just, yeah, time is a concept that I don't have.
Osayomore: ⁓ Honestly speaking, I agree with you. And like you said, it's not just, you know, I've not been diagnosed with ADHD. And ⁓ if you speak to my husband, the one thing he will tell you is, I have no concept of time. Like it's just, and he keeps saying to me every day, time doesn't change, time is constant every day. And I'm like, is it though? I've been awake since seven. Are we out of the door by nine? No, we're still literally looking for the shoe. We're still trying to eat breakfast. That is, yeah. So I I have alarms set on my phone. seven thirty wake up, seven forty five, wake the kids up, seven you know, I ha and it it just is little adjustments that you make for yourself to have to make your day easier.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. And as human beings, there's strengths that we have and there's ways of doing things that we can kind of just hone in on. ⁓ I like a strength-based approach. I've like a strength-based approach has helped me to find kind of self-acceptance around my ADHD and unmask. And this is a story for another day. But I think for any of us, like find out what your strengths are and then nurture them and look after the
Osayomore: Yeah. I nudge them.
The ADHD Reframed Project: and try and then with the coping strategies in place. Sorry, distracted again. I think anybody, know, like find the things that you find challenging and put some... ⁓ adjustments in place, but also kind of, you know, work to your own strengths, find out what your strengths are and, and kind of tailor your approaches around your strengths rather than just eating. is for anybody, you know, anybody that's sitting there and thinking like in that negative kind of frame of mind, can't do this, I can't do that, or I find this or that or whatever challenging. You know, sometimes by just saying it out loud to another person, it kind of takes the power out of it.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: if that makes sense. then it enables, you know, it could then enable you to kind of get on and get the job done. But I think, when it comes to like a strength based approach, you can do a VIA personality strengths test for free. You just need to, you know, create an account and do it. And then just try and focus on with your coping strategies, try and focus on the strengths, try finding ways that work.
Osayomore: Yeah,
The ADHD Reframed Project: well for you. And yeah, as women, there's going to be times when, you know, even without the ADHD, like perimenopause and menopause is not pleasant. So it's just about giving yourself a bit of a break. Like yourself, you're probably, you know, you're working full time, you've got children, you've got a house to run, you've probably got like a million things to do every day. And I can imagine that some days you're just exhausted. Like, it's just so
Osayomore: No To be honest, yeah. Yeah. And it's it's very common and I ⁓ I saw a post recently and it it really ⁓ affected it it really resonated with me because i if it felt like I I was in that bracket because not only, you know, everything that you've called MSO, you've got full time work, you've got the house, you've got every and there's a lot of people now that are sandwich carers. So they are caring for their so they've got kids that they're looking after and they've got their parents that they're looking after. So ⁓ it makes
The ADHD Reframed Project: parents.
Osayomore: it makes it all too much sometimes. So it's good to yeah, speak out when you need help, advocate for yourself and definitely put in your own reasonable adjustments in place.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, people can go on their own journey of self-discovery if they haven't already. But I think primarily for women, like, just give yourself a bit of a break, sit down for 10 minutes, find 10 minutes in a day where you can just sit quietly and just kind of be like, just still and not doing anything, which for some ADHD people that is difficult.
Osayomore: Yeah. Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And for us, a lot of non ADHD is, but I think it's, you know, for women, like we're trying to juggle a million different things. And I think sometimes we all just need to hear, give yourself a break, sit down for 10 minutes in the choir, have cup of tea or a cup of coffee or whatever it is that you like to drink, not alcohol, would suggest you in the day. But. But.
Osayomore: I'm a pharmacist. I am not I'm not endorsing that.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Exactly. Never am I. But it's just about, yeah, just giving yourself a little bit of a break because you're probably juggling a million things. And I do think, you know, there's a lot more pressure put on in today's society, a lot more pressure put on women, as in, you know, we go out to work, we work full time, we raise children, you know, we pay the bills, we have to, you know, eat healthy and exercise. I'm just like, sometimes I'm just...
Osayomore: be a good friend and be there and show up.
The ADHD Reframed Project: yeah be a good friend and yeah yeah yeah and be there for everyone then they need you and then ⁓ yeah just it's when you actually think about it and you're just like yeah it's almost like blows your mind it blows your mind doesn't it so yeah but anyway ⁓ it's been an absolute pleasure ⁓ we've gone four minutes over like always with me we always go over a little bit
Osayomore: It blows it does. It does. He has
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, no. Yeah, because we just started a few minutes past the anyway, sorry, I get easily distracted. Honestly, I've completely forgotten how to pronounce your name now. So I'll say Amara. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been it's been lovely to talk to you thoroughly enjoyed. I think you might be my first non ADHD guest, which is
Osayomore: That's absolutely fine. A Sayomara. Thank you for having me here too. I enjoyed Really?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, which is special in itself, I think. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, that's that's...
Osayomore: Well, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed our chat. And it's lovely, yeah. Lovely.
The ADHD Reframed Project: thoroughly, yep, sorry. Can I change over my prescribing to you? Probably not. No, if it was possible, then I would because it would be so much easier. Anyway, anyway, of course. Yep, thank you. Thank you very much for that. And thank you for your time today. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversations. And yeah, thank you for all the hard work that you do for...
Osayomore: What? I'm here. If you've got any questions, I'm happy to support. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the prescribing or for ADHD people like from the bottom of my heart, ⁓ I thoroughly, thoroughly appreciate what you do every day. So thank you. ⁓ And yeah, I will ⁓ put the links to your LinkedIn if you've got a website. I will put the links in the description to this episode. So the listeners or watchers can find you.
Osayomore: ⁓ thank you. Thank you very much.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And yet all I ask is that you will share the link once I've edited and it's up there and it's, you know, all singing or dancing, which is never all singing or dancing for me because I've got ADHD and no patience with editing. So yes, anyway, so I hope you have an amazing rest of the week and thank you so much for your time today.
Osayomore: Thank you very much, Emma. You too, thank you very much.
Osayomore: So hello everyone, I'm Osai Mara. I'm a pharmacist and specializing in ADHD. And yeah, I'm joining Emma today for our chat.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So you work specifically with ADHD people don't you? So what is it exactly that you do do?
Osayomore: Yes, I do. So I work as a ADHD specialist pharmacist. So I review patients and prescribe and titrate patients, help them manage side effects and just in general, not just medication sides, but also just far ⁓ psychoeducation and helping them thrive really.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So how did you get into that then? It's fascinating.
Osayomore: Yeah, it is actually. so I've I've been a pharmacist for eleven years roughly. So I have done community pharmacy, did a bit of health and justice, GP surgery, and then so I've always kind of been in the space of social media as well. So back in when I finished university, I started a website ⁓ where I document my journey as a pharmacist. So I've kind of always been on social media and then recently came across a report, I'll probably say maybe about two years ago, came across about a report about the increased number of misinformation on the internet about medical conditions, especially mental health, ADHD. And that was when that sparked my interest really on ADHD. And then I started to specialise, I've done my training a bit more like a a deep dive into ADHD and how to manage patients with ADHD. And yeah. So it's just made I would say the sheer amount of misinformation out there got me motivated to try and put in more ⁓ evidence based information out.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So how has that kind of, what steps have you taken to get more information, like specific information out to ADHD people that need it regarding medication?
Osayomore: So regarding medication, I do spend a lot of time on my LinkedIn lately posting about ⁓ medication on there. ⁓ I do a couple of videos, not so much as as much as I can, because I'm still working. So I'm still working full time. So I try to to fit it all in. It's it's a bit of it's crazy over here as well. You know, just before we start recording, we're talking about how we're juggling different things.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, yeah. And also talking about welcome to the madhouse, AKA me. So do you specifically prescribe anti-trait? ⁓ Yeah, that's what you've just said, isn't it? Sorry, my brain is just a bit distracted this week.
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, that's what I do. So I tell prescribe. So usually I would see patients post diagnosis. So when they get diagnosed, then I'll run their first initial consultation. And following our conversation, we could decide which part we're taking if we're going down the stimulant parts or the non stimulants, and then I would prescribe and typically do a review in four weeks' time. see how they're getting on with it, if they need to increase the dose or reduce it, ⁓ if they're experiencing any side effects and if they think it's working for them, if they want us to try something else. And yeah, we're just so typically there. That's a standard day.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So yeah, you've obviously just said like stimulant and non-stimulant. Now I know ADHD medication is something that lot of people don't really want to talk about. It's very controversial and it's very, it's a very personal, it's a very, very personal thing for each person. So say for instance, I came to you, I was diagnosed in 2019, age 43. So for instance, I've been assessed, I'm diagnosed and then I come to you.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And then like as a woman, because I know that there's just no kind of, there's no, I'm going off on a tangent now. ⁓ So yeah, what would the first steps be? You talked to me about kind of the different medications and how they work and is it different for men and women is I think what I wanted to ask.
Osayomore: Ha The straight answer to that would be no. So the NISE guidelines, which we use here in UK, which is obviously what we would every prescriber in in UK would use, ⁓ recommends our first line treatment as metophenidate. So that's the same for everyone, whether you're a man or a woman. There are differences obviously in terms of how we would respond to it, but just like every medication, everyone has different genetics, different biological, environmental factors that affects how you respond to a medication. And should I say fortunate for us women? We've got the hormones also in play, which tends to also affect ⁓ ADHD symptoms and how you would respond to the medication. So we do find like sometimes maybe a particular time of the month women would need an extra dose to maybe tie them over, or they can find that their medication is not working as well as it did a couple of weeks ago. Well, that it's tends not to be the case in men. So that might be like the sort of differences. But in terms of picking the tablets, it's it's all the so it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. It's more like ⁓ because so I'll use metal phylate, for example, is just a stimulant. It's more what part of the day do you struggle with more because then you could get like immediate release that works for four hours and then you're fine, or you could get like if you work longer shifts, maybe you might need something that works up to twelve, thirteen hours, then that would help us decide. So ⁓ back to your original questions about if you got diagnosed and you were sent to me, what would happen? So normally in a typical consultation obviously would be how you're getting on, if you had any questions about your diagnosis, if you had concerns, if you understood why, you know, you were diagnosed with either combined or if it was predominantly hyperactive or so we would discuss that and and have a chat about that. We would discuss about Different options on the table, so the stimulants and the non-stimulants. And some people actually tend not to want medication, maybe they just wanted some education on over it, or we could discuss strategies. ⁓ we could discuss maybe putting structure in place as to going down the pharmacological path. So they are other things, and quite honestly, ⁓ research has shown that ADHD treatment is more of a multimodal treatment, so it doesn't actually respond to just one thing. It could, you know, medication could be the a piece of the puzzle, but it's not the whole puzzle. So even if you're on medication, we still discuss having structural and organizational prioritizing things and having a bit more focused time. So we do have conversation about that. If you do choose to go down the medication part, then we talk about side effects because unfortunately that's something that can be associated as well. And with ADHD treatment, the goal is to get the optimal v response from the drug without Getting side effects. So they go hand in hand. So we spent some time talking about that. And there are steps as well that you could take to manage side effects. So you can still take the medication and still get the benefits of the medication, but with minimal side effects. So that can that would be something we would discuss as well. It's really important not to feel pressured when you're spending time with your medical prescriber. It's very important to think about. the treatment goals that you want because again you're not going to start taking a treatment and voila everything is sorted it still you know it still takes time so it's it's good to set expectations it's good to have treatment goals and I don't want to go too clinical but it's also good to have like a baseline so we check things like your blood pressure your height your weight all those matters before we proceed to prescribe make sure that it's safe ⁓ medical history if you're taking any other medications how they would interact what effect you're you're hoping ⁓ the the two medications could result to and how we could better manage that. So we spend time talking about that as well. It typically would take maybe 50 minutes to an hour of conversation before we decide to proceed to ⁓ prescribe medication. And yeah, that's typical. And then we book in a follow-up appointment in four weeks time, see how you're responding to the treatment and then we can take it from there.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Do you know what, really, I was just thinking, like, just listening to you explaining that, like, it's really nice to see someone who doesn't have ADHD talk so passionately about ADHD. I don't know, just, or I know we're talking about medication and so, yeah, but it's really, it is really nice because a lot of the time I kind of look for ADHD people to talk on the podcast, but I've kind of started thinking in the last few months, I need to kind of start branching out.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So having guests that don't have ADHD but may support or work. So it was, it's really nice for me to just see that passion coming through you as you're talking about it. But I know, but, I know, but.
Osayomore: There is quite a number of us out there. There is you know. I know what you mean. I feel like ⁓ and and even on my ⁓ LinkedIn page, I've started a new, you know, series about myths of ADHD. And I think it's really important that we talk about it because one of the ones that you get is well, everyone has ADHD, or you know, it or maybe you could hear like ADHD is not a real condition, you know, so you you you you could hear things like that. And it's really, really important that we have those conversations and we clear it out that ADHD is actually a neurodevelopmental condition, right? We know that, research has proven that to us, you know, we've we probably have ⁓ people with ADHD in our household or really close in our cycle. So we've we've had lived experiences as well. So it's really important that we share that ⁓ information out so everyone is aware of it and ⁓ and not make stereotype comments or
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah.
Osayomore: Or dismissive comments about it. I should say.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I'm glad also you said that even if you do prescribe medication and the patient doesn't have it's a positive effect. It doesn't necessarily mean that all of the ADHD symptoms are going to go away. And so I like you may have ⁓ slightly said it in a different way to me. But yes, so what ⁓ what is the ⁓ difference between it?
Osayomore: No, yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the stimulant medication and non-stimulant medication, please.
Osayomore: Okay. So in terms of the the differences with with the stimulant medication, so the stimulant medication so works on the chemicals like the dopamine in the central nervous system. So there's more I know people get concerned about if ⁓ that might cause addiction or ⁓ if if it's ⁓ how do I ⁓ trying to get my words straight. So I know there's been a lot of conversations around stimulant, but it's almost like saying coffee. Coffee is a stimulant, right? And people do drink coffee. And I know that there's a misconception as well because you say you need to have a medication break. People then assume that it's because of a negative thing. But actually historically is because people ⁓ had symptoms worse at at some particular time. So if you're in school for instance, you know, but then on the summer holiday you're not longer in school, you you probably then would cope better with your symptoms, but it's not because it was addictive ⁓ to you. So in terms of picking the choices, again, it's just a personal preference. Some people might want to avoid that, which is fine. And ⁓ I would say maybe the the key major difference would yeah, would be the way ⁓ how it works. So with the stimulum working in in the central nervous system directly on the on the dopamine receptors.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And what about the non-stimulant medication? Sorry, I've got a bit distracted because it's just done a big clap of thunder here. So I apologize if you... Sorry, but... yeah, the non-stimulant medication works on the central nervous system, the non-stimulant medication.
Osayomore: ⁓ and No, that's absolutely fair. So we have ⁓ the non-stimulant medication, which is the atom ⁓ atomoxphane. So it's a little bit slower in the terms that you probably need to take it for at least two to three weeks to start to notice an effect. It could all it could even be more ⁓ before you notice an effect from it. So that's one I don't want to use the word downside. That's just one thing to consider that could be different. It'll it works on the receptor no ephedrine as well. So it is slightly different, but it's still a chemical that is ⁓ is being used. ⁓ I would say In terms of mechanism of action, I'm trying to think of ⁓ the best way to explain it. without sounding too too ⁓ clinical.
The ADHD Reframed Project: You can sound clinical if that's the only way you can explain it. I mean, I don't mind. I'm sure the listeners won't mind either.
Osayomore: Let's let's see, yeah, okay. So we could try, let's try using maybe an airport. So imagine the brain is like an airport, a busy airport, right? And the planes coming in, planes taking off, that's all like the different symptoms, so all the tasks that you have to do and and distractions and everything else, right? And the tower house, that's that's what controls it. So that's what says flight A, you can land in this terminal or you can go over to the next terminal. That's it. So the problem in ADHD is that tower doesn't have doesn't receive the appropriate signals. It doesn't get enough or if dopamine is there, it the body reuptakes it really quickly. It doesn't give the message a chance to fully transmission before it it disappears. So the the ⁓ the tablet metaphenidate would work by increasing that dopamine level in the tower house or making it stay there longer. instead of creating it. While we atmosphere, which is a non stimulant, it doesn't work in pre ⁓ pre cortex. It doesn't work there in the brain tower. It works a bit lower down. But it gives it also has effects of working in other parts of the brain. So it's a bit less stimulating. I think that's that might be a better way to explain it, I think.
The ADHD Reframed Project: That's great. I love that metaphor or anagram or biology. I don't even know what the right words are. But yeah, I love things like that because then I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I understand that.
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you just you just need it because and it's not ⁓ the tower is not broken because if it's not, you know, send them signals, it doesn't mean you just shut the airport down. It just means you create structure or you create ⁓ safe points for the tower to be able to work it more efficiently.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, we could call it like the radio from the tower to the plains is a little bit is a little bit ⁓ faulty, let's say and you'd need, you know, one right. Yeah.
Osayomore: Yes. And your message is just not being yeah. So they can't just hear, did you say terminal one, did you say terminal two? So you just try and and that's why sometimes you see having post-it notes, right? It helps because you're using a different way of transmitting that information. So you're putting like a little reminder there to say this needs to happen.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, no, it's a great way to explain it. Honestly, I love and ⁓ I do take ⁓ I chose the stimulant route and I take concert or Excel and doctors just drive me mad sometimes. They just do. ⁓ And so what if you have someone that he is considering
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: medication, stimulant medication, without putting them completely off, what are the possible side effects of what that first experience for them would possibly be?
Osayomore: For them. I'll say the most common one we get would probably be loss of appetite. And you know, if you take let's say ⁓ we're using in your case you're taking consata. I'm taking I'm guessing you take it once a day in the morning and it tends to last the ultra day. So you might find that you're not interested in having lunch sometimes. It's not, yeah, so it ⁓ you lose appetite and It's easily managed, I think is the word to say, you know, again with everything. I don't think it's even everything in life, isn't it? Like you weigh your risk versus your benefits. So if you're getting benefit from it, loss of appetite is something that can, you know, be ha can be managed. So I would probably then recommend in the morning you have a hearty breakfast, you know, so you you have your protein, your dairy milk. If you're gonna have a glass of milk or anything like that, it should be a full fat milk. That way you're getting more calories in or yogurt. ⁓ another way around it would be dinner time because with like concerto, for instance, it it would probably last about 12 hours-ish. So if you take it, let's say eight in the morning, you could probably you might not even be hungry about five, four. Your appetite might still be lost. So you might have a bit of a later dinner, like six, seven, but then have like a proper meal, like a proper balanced diet meal. So to account for not eating throughout the day. It also helps to meal prep. sometimes even if you don't have appetite but you have like a nice like sandwich or s or a s a meal in you're more likely then it takes one hodl off you know and then you're more likely to encourage yourself to to eat so loss of appetite can definitely be managed well. another one might be sleep. It might affect sleep. ⁓ and then in that case we just recommend taking it a bit early. So if you're awake at like 7 a.m you could take it then so before it's bedtime it would be out of your system. So then you're more you know, that that can easily be ⁓ handled that way. We also encourage having like a good sleep routine, ⁓ good sleep hygiene in place, trying to avoid the phones. I know I'm bad for it. I wake up and I'm I'm on my phone as soon as I open my eyes, but trying to keep the phone away from the bed so that you can sleep a bit better. ⁓ journaling tends to be really good and helps with sleep. I think it's just the whole idea of taking it off your brain, put popping it on a piece of paper, you're more like you know, you have more of a less noise in the head. to help with sleep and blood pressure it's another one that tends to be ⁓ of concern again keeping an eye i know ⁓ blood pressure is also a tricky one in clinics actually because then people start worrying about their blood pressure that they check it every day and then that itself is like causing like a is that you Emma I'm getting a lot of nuts and then it causes a ripple effect though doesn't it how often do you check your blood pressure
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah and now my blood pressure goes high even I'm sure it increases as soon as I get the cuff thing out to test it at home and they call it know in GP surgeries on medical settings they call it white coat high blood pressure don't they literally I think that's me as well because it's just I'm just like it's yeah and actually and this might not be possible but I have found when I
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: don't have the medication, sometimes my blood pressure is higher. It's weird because I'm having to force myself to do things that might not be medically possible. But I am a little bit of an unusual case.
Osayomore: Do you know what though the first thing that crossed my mind when you said that is I was gonna ask in terms of your symptoms, do you feel like anxiety as well? Because then being anxious could explain why your blood pressure is high. But you know, when you're taking your concerta, for instance, it gives you more of a stable mood. I don't know if you noticed that with your meds, you have more stable mood, you're not as anxious. So that could explain. It might, you know, you we could argue it's not a direct effect, but it's it is an effect like
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah.
Osayomore: Because you didn't take your meds, you're a bit more anxious and then your blood pressure then is higher. Totally makes sense to me.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. But exactly. It makes sense to me. But obviously, sometimes I think medical professionals don't really listen to me. They just are like, ⁓ whatever. And it's like, you know, they've obviously gone to medical school, you've gone to university and done your pharmacy. Did you do a degree in pharmacy before I say it? Yeah, you did. Yeah. And then you've obviously done extra training to be able to kind of prescribe ADHD meds. But yeah, I do think like ⁓
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, because my blood pressure, because ⁓ in the UK after COVID, there was a few years where they couldn't get the stocks of medication in and Concerta was one that was affected by that. And then unfortunately, they tried me on a few other brands and I was just like, no, not at all. And then I actually got COVID really badly.
Osayomore: Mm. Yes, it was a bit of a short page. You didn't get on well with it. Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the first strain of COVID. And then since then, since COVID, like my heart beats quicker than the doctors like it to, but it beats regularly in the same rhythm. It's not like it, you know, it beats at around 90 beats per minute rather than 70 beats per minute. And then, yeah, they messed around with kind of the idiot, no, didn't mess around, you know, kind of having to swap and change the different brands and... other brands not working and then having to kind of just go back and say, I need you to put me back on concert because, know, and thankfully by then the stocks were back in the UK and I was able to get it. But for quite a while, it was a matter of ringing around the different pharmacies in the town where I live and trying to find if they've got that in stock and if they haven't, then you had to go back to the doctors.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And then there was just all of these things that needed extra steps for someone with ADHD, obviously. But anyway, thankfully, that's all in the past, it? And so, yeah, it's just, I love talking. But yeah, I've said to my ⁓ medical professionals, ADHD consultant, I've said like, basically that when, because they reduced, because of these things, they reduced my dosage down.
Osayomore: Mm mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: by half and since then it's like the blood pressure is is being kind of increasing and then they wanted to put me on blood pressure medication and I was like okay it's just another thing and then I finally got up to I think it's 54 milligrams I take now but I need them to be increased because I am well I'm sure I've gone past the perimenopause and I'm in the menopause stage and I had a review with the
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: ⁓ I'm prescribing person. ⁓ Clinician is that what you call them? Clinician. Yes. So yeah. So I had a view last week with my clinician and he said that they don't want to increase the ADHD medication until because I'll take HRT and I've been taking HRT for two or three years now, but I just don't feel like it's working.
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah, clean shape. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: as well as it did. So what he suggested is that you increase ⁓ the HRT and then in six months time, he will then assess or he will then consider kind of increasing the ADHD medication. And I'm like, I just, but everything seems like it's a bit of a battle. And I don't know if the listeners have had experiences with this, but
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: because I have so many other health conditions as well. So I've got complex PTSD, fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, trigeminal neuralgia, like a long list. I used the medical professionals who said to me, yeah, you've got complex medical issues. And I'm like, no, I'm just medically interesting, which is quite a nice little reframing. Yeah.
Osayomore: love that I love that that's a better way to say it. Well actually I want to do I do actually want to say I do would like to offer an apology that you had such an experience and you feel like you're not being heard. ⁓ I feel that it's definitely not ⁓ one of our intentions. I would say as clinicians, like ⁓ we would like to make our patients feel heard. Especially because ⁓ the condition here and in general
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. Yep.
Osayomore: all of us as human beings, we're all unique and we all have different ways that our body and genetics due to genetics like different ways our body will respond to things. So yeah, ⁓ yeah, definitely. I apologize for that. ⁓ but it sounds like is it getting better now, would you say? Are you are you seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? is it
The ADHD Reframed Project: It's a tiny light, let's say, but yeah, I think because I'm currently studying as well, like I noticed that, you know, my, the brain fog and I noticed that my ability to be able to concentrate for any period of time seems to have kind of just this, it's almost, it's not completely gone, but it's just, it's, it's minimal, let's say. So I know for myself that,
Osayomore: Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: you like you said, when you first talked about women and medication, you know, like adding an extra dose in certain parts of the month of their monthly cycle. I think, yeah. I mean, the clinician that I had my review with last week actually didn't know about ADHD and hormonal fluctuations in women, which I'm surprised and I've been shocked to know in the past that my GP actually said to me, you'd be lucky to find someone that does know about both. And I'm like, what do you mean? What? So yeah, it's nice to hear that there's progress has been made in these kind of, in these areas.
Osayomore: Yeah, and I and I think ⁓ maybe it's okay. I think I would like to just chime in to say that it's okay not to know everything because it's practically impossible to know everything. But I feel like ⁓ as clinicians, one thing we really need to do better is to say, I don't know but I'm gonna find out and I think we should normalize that as well. You know, ⁓ it's okay if they've not heard about it, but they definitely have resources to look into it and ⁓ they should know where to find information about it. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, and it and better educate themselves so they can help the the patients. That's the whole point, I think, of being a clinician to be able to help and be of positive influence. ⁓ every day research comes out, every day, you know, something new, we learn something new. ⁓ and yeah, but I think ⁓ it's definitely well known now, I would imagine, that women do react and research has shown is probably ⁓ down to the estrogen levels. And ⁓ yeah, and that's why even in pregnancy symptoms can tend to to to be a bit different. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ it's probably worth saying as well. Maybe your audience might also have different experience. Maybe they they would have had a clinician that was really helpful or maybe they reacted differently. But ⁓ I know just from my experience in community pharmacy. People definitely react to drugs differently, even if it's the same generic ingredients, it could be as little as maybe the dye in the tablet. So it could not it doesn't have to be like the active ingredient. It could all be metal phenidate, but maybe one has sunset yellow dye or another different dye, and that could be what's causing the issue. Yeah, so definitely have an open mind, I would say, and be ready to learn. You said you're in.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, I mean yeah, go on, sorry, no.
Osayomore: Sorry. No, I was just gonna ask, you mentioned you're in in studying university, are you doing an ADHD course or like does it have to do ADHD? Or second?
The ADHD Reframed Project: No, I'm doing psychology. But it's an undergrad psychology and it's kind of grown into something that's now fully focused on ADHD. yeah, because I always wanted to study psychology, but I just never really had the confidence even to consider doing a degree. I study
Osayomore: That's really good. Amazing.
The ADHD Reframed Project: 100 % online so I'm a distance learner and so it's a lot of independent study which for someone with ADHD obviously can be quite challenging because
Osayomore: Yeah. I was gonna say that's not the best type. That is ⁓ you're cause you're you're heavily reliant on your motivation, your spark and you have to, you know, yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: but it's not Yeah, but I have kind of managed to to get some support in place that's been key to my ability to be able to study effectively. So, yeah, I've been quite lucky in the UK through student finance. can get access to disabled students allowance. And although it's taken me nearly two years to find a study skills tutor that that I
Osayomore: That's good.
The ADHD Reframed Project: can work with the lady that I've got at the moment is just phenomenal. Like it's just completely changed. my, yeah. So it was just completely changed. I'm, it's weird because I'm account, once I'm accountable to someone else, then things get done. Whereas if I sit here on my own and I don't have any tasks broken down.
Osayomore: I love it when I speak.
The ADHD Reframed Project: into manageable chunks or if I don't have the accountability then I literally was just it's not even procrastination like I just I get so distracted like with even minimal things that it just kind of yeah I just end up going mad yeah so you know for me it's been about getting specific support put in place but more importantly it's been about
Osayomore: It just takes a yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: trying to learn about what I actually need. And that's been the trickiest bit for me is kind of, you know, because people asked me when I first started studying and I was like, I don't know, I've never done this. I've never done distance learning before. I've never studied a degree. I have absolutely no idea. I've got ADHD. These are the things I find challenging currently. So although it's been a little bit.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: It's been hard work trying to find a study skills tutor. It's also, I think, taught me some really kind of a lot of resilience, a lot of self-advocacy, but also it's enabled me to kind of be able to say, this is what I struggle with and this is what I need. And I think it's not necessarily something that a lot of students maybe would have the confidence to do. So I think if there are any listeners that are...
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: even at school or in higher education or even at work, if you feel overwhelmed and you don't feel able to kind of advocate for yourself, I'd just like to tell you that you can do it because anything is possible. And all we need to do is just we need to kind of show up and ask for what we need. So maybe start by thinking, what do you need to get through your day or what do you need to work or study effectively?
Osayomore: Yeah, that's true.
The ADHD Reframed Project: so yeah, I just, I, I am.
Osayomore: Definitely I echo that. You mentioned body doubling as well and ⁓ it's definitely something, you know, that has has been a game changer for a lot of my clients. Like just being able to and it's and I think it's it's worth mentioning actually just putting it out there, like because it's not only about being accountable but it's also could be about mirroring the person that you're body doubling with. So definitely ⁓ choose the right environment. yeah. How have you found Body Doubling?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Game changer, literally. Like, yeah, because then I'm not just accountable to myself. I'm accountable to people that are going to turn up for the sessions as well. yeah, so, so, yeah, I've just started offering free body doubling sessions on a Monday morning, 10am to 12 noon UK time. I have just started and actually there's been a few attendees
Osayomore: ⁓ yeah, that's right. You do offer sex you do that, don't you? How have you found it? Like so Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: which has been really nice and the feedback has been good. So yeah, again, if the listeners want to book in and come to the, I'm only doing it on Monday to start with for a few hours to see if it's needed and then I'll expand it out. But personally for me, with my studies, the body doubling has been, it's vital, particularly when I'm working on admin or academic writing, which obviously needs.
Osayomore: That's good.
The ADHD Reframed Project: my full focus and my work in memory and every kind of all that executive functioning or executive dysfunction is when it needs to. And I think even for people that work from home or that study from home, like the physical, like even though it's only virtual, but the minute that someone else is on the screen with you and I do it for the project through Teams,
Osayomore: Disfluction?
The ADHD Reframed Project: The minute that someone's there, I don't know, it's weird. It's almost like I just click into work mode. Does that make sense? It's weird.
Osayomore: Yeah. It's almost like a switch. So do you set goals at the beginning of the call?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yes, yeah, yeah, people can set goals. But then again, they don't have to if they don't want to if I haven't got any if I just want to get on, you can have your camera on or off. The only ask is that, you know, everyone stays muted. So then we can just, you know, study our work kind of alongside each other. And then if there's people that attend that may have questions, or may just need a little bit of support, then I can create like a breakout room and they can go into that as well. yeah, people can drop in and drop out as and when they like it's, you know, it's really laid back, really kind of just, it's just, yeah, I try and make it as inclusive for everyone as possible. So yeah, it's been nice because it's only week two this week and there's been a few people that have attended that are not people that I know already, which is amazing because it means that message is then getting out there, isn't it?
Osayomore: Fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah. Love that, you know. You know when you do when you make a post and and people that liked it and not people that are, you know, that you know it's fantastic. It's a fantastic feeling.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Ahem. Yeah, and I want to offer, you know, things like that for free. Because I know, you know, people were in a cost of living crisis, you know, and I've got the I've got the ability to be able to offer the sessions for free. And that's, you know, that's what what because it's not just because I'm offering them for free, it's because they're so beneficial to me. as well. if that is all at the moment, if they if that is all I can offer other people is just the time or the space or the teams, let's say the teams meeting just to turn up and so they can work alongside each other, then you know, if that's that's that's then I'm happy to do that. So yeah, it's just a little. Yeah, I'm still getting used to teams because I'm used to zoom. But yeah, it's yeah.
Osayomore: As well, yeah. That's fantastic, yeah. Definitely. Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Just another one of them things and also for me within my studies another one of them things has been mind mapping So mind mapping literally ⁓ is a game changer. So you got me talking about education now. I'm sorry, but I'm talking about this This is meant to be about human and ADHD medication
Osayomore: Okay. It's fine. It's your podcast. No, it's it's your podcast. We can talk about anything you want to talk about. I remember mind mapping when I was studying pharmacy actually. ⁓ back in school. So it it used to be one of those things that you it could it could go anywhere though, can't it really? Once you start p pulling up the map, you could go anywhere with it.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, exactly. So I got the mind mapping software called mind view through DSA. And I think it's been the most useful, assisted tech software that I have literally is a game changer. So I'll create a new map every module. At the moment, I'm studying occupational psychology and forensic psychology because they're the last two modules of level five.
Osayomore: Okay. Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: but yeah, like literally in the middle, like, you know, whatever the subject is, and then I just add stuff to it as I go along as the weeks go. And then, you know, I've got a branch for introduction, a branch for main body, you know, what, whatever it is that I'm writing two case studies for these two modules. But then the thing that I like about it the most is then whenever, like whenever I'm ready.
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I can just export it straight into a Word document. So whatever I've inputted into the mind map is then on a Word document. And then it just takes that cognitive load away from being able to kind of, yeah, so seriously, know, any students, if you're studying in the UK, or you can probably pay for it. I don't know what the price is, but yeah, highly recommend. And you can get it.
Osayomore: Okay. Amazing.
The ADHD Reframed Project: to set like little timers so you get it to click every time. Because I don't know about other people and with their ADHD, but I do like a little bit of a reward when I've concentrated or done something because it's hard work. And the little kind of reward of seeing the clock kick down, click down, not kick down, to the project being finished is sometimes just, yeah, some.
Osayomore: Yes, yes. When you mentioned about ⁓ the mind mapping, it made me think about also the import in ⁓ why I think mind mapping works why I believe it works really well is because it's personalized and it just it made me think about ⁓ because I was doing some work on creating a personalized planner because I feel you know there's hundreds of planner out planners out there, isn't it? Like you get the minimalistic ones, the fancy looking ones. But they don't tend to work, or you could get them and after three days you don't open them because obviously it's not tailored. And I think that's why my mind map works really well because it's personalized to you. So anything that is personalized to the way your brain works or the way your brain was thinking, when you exported it to a Word document, it was literally just it's it's it's your head there. Literally, it's your brain on that piece of paper. It's just amazing, isn't it? It just takes off the load and it makes it work. And yeah, I think for People listening, if you're worried about tr planning things and getting yeah, try the mind map, try creating a planner for you. You don't have to, yeah, purchase one. Try try just making a you could set, you know, if if you're if you're good in working in blocks, you could do a planner for yourself to work in blocks. If you prefer to work like Ali Stamp or join a body doubling session on Monday with Emma, definitely to get things done. That's another good one. Sorry, just
The ADHD Reframed Project: Tuesday not Monday sorry, Tuesday the bloody devil in here. I don't know whether I said Tuesday or Monday, could have been either of us that said it sorry. But yeah, it could have been either of us. But yeah, mean.
Osayomore: Did you say Tuesday at first or did I get it? Apologies, Tuesday. Yeah. What we're just trying to say is discover what works for you and then work with it. That's what we're getting at.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think one of the main reasons why I do like body, body doubling, I love body doubling, but why I love my maps is because it kind of triggers the creative side of my brain because in my academic writing, the biggest hurdle for me is getting started. So I can, and then sometimes I get kind of lost and even like go off on little tangents and add things and you know, you've just spent two hours trying to write.
Osayomore: Okay.
The ADHD Reframed Project: two or three sentences and that doesn't even need to be included. Whereas if I've got a mind map that's got kind of even just bullet points or minimal information on it, then I get once I've exported it into a Word document, then it's kind of got over that hurdle of trying to get started. so but also it breaks the sections down bit by bit. So that then enables me to be able to just go off and you find the research and whatever else I need to include.
Osayomore: Yes. And doing that gives you another fresh pair of eye like almost you're looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes, right? So you can then quickly think, ⁓ that bullet point doesn't actually fit in here and then it saves you the time that you would have spent, you know, writing it and then taking it off or yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, and it's not just useful for ADHD students, it's useful for everyone. These suggestions are not just if you're neurodivergent or you've got ADHD or whatever, these suggestions are useful. Even for people in work, if you work remotely, if you work at home, if you study at home, it also just stops you feeling isolated or lonely because you've got the physical video, virtual presence of someone else being there, but it's...
Osayomore: Yeah. Yes.
The ADHD Reframed Project: know, if you work fully at home and you don't see a lot of people during the day, then you're going to start feeling quite lonely and that's going to affect your well-being and stuff. So yeah, I think it's really important to just open spaces like the Body Doubling for anyone that needs it. It's not just for ADHD people. ⁓ It's for everyone. So yeah, I'm glad that we've had this little conversation. You get me off on a few little kind of topics and, you know, off we go. And it's like, yes.
Osayomore: ⁓ yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So yeah. Did you want to say something then? I think we both went to say something and I was like...
Osayomore: No, I'm feeling
The ADHD Reframed Project: Sorry, I was just focussing.
Osayomore: No, no, no, that's fine. I lost my train of thought actually. Keep going.
The ADHD Reframed Project: So is there any advice, any suggestions that you would want to give to someone who's just been diagnosed and is considering medication for their ADHD? Yeah, is there anything specific that you'd like to leave the listeners with? I know we've talked about it, but...
Osayomore: Yeah, I I would say one thing I would have I would love everyone to to be aware of is ⁓ mainly because it just it comes up so when I read ⁓ assessments before I I see a patient, there's always this grievance stage that people tend to go through when they get the diagnosis or or people thinking they've maybe wasted a lot of time w not getting diagnosed or let's just say negative thoughts, right? A about it. And I just want to say to everyone listening that ⁓ if you were late diagnosed, ⁓ yes it's a fact that you would feel, you know, sort of maybe a disservice, but it shouldn't be holding your back. You shouldn't be like, ⁓ because I'm in my fifties or sixties, then you know, what's the point? I think ⁓ it's fine that, you know, you just got diagnosed now. You can actually even look look back and be like, I had this issue. I had this neurodevelopment issue and I still, you know, got here. That's a positive. I think we should always look at it in with that light instead of just being negative about it. And ⁓ it's also very important. I think, yeah, so that's the first thing I'll say. I d I feel like ⁓ even you know, even when you read stuff, I don't know about yeah, but when you go around ⁓ LinkedIn you see a lot of like comments like lazy or grieving and I just think it's we don't need to dwell on it. You know, we know it's there, we could just but we just don't need to dwell on it. And then the second thing I would like to say is in terms of going in with the mindset that the medication will fix you or would cure you, because that's tends not to be the case. so instead of trying to fit into a little box and make your brain do what it's impossible, like incapable of doing, just work with your brain. And adapt new skills and learn learn new structures, put things in place that would make life easy. And just like Emma said earlier in terms of the double button, like you don't have to be you don't have to have ADHD, right? A lot of the strategies and the the the support out there, it all makes life easy. Like who doesn't want a beautiful looking mind map on a word document to make writing your project so much easier? Like, so there's there's really positives out there. It doesn't always have to be. What do you think Emma?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah, no, I know. Honestly, I agree. One of the main reasons why I wanted to start doing the podcast was because I was sick and tired of just seeing like negative either misconceptions or, you know, ADHD is horrific or, you know, no, no, or D.A. D.H. I can never say that one properly, but if you have autism and ADHD together, then, you know, it's traumatic and and I just don't I don't kind of like that narrative because I think
Osayomore: Yeah. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: even within psychological studies and neuroscience, like the negativity, if you think about something in a negative way, then it actually changes the brain structures, like the kind of, and you know, you've done your studying and stuff. And so, yeah, it's just, that's one of the main reasons why I just want it to almost kind of help other people to be able to see themselves positively. And I know everyone's journey is different, but if you've just been diagnosed, then
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: congratulations, welcome to the club is what I would say to start with. And yeah, I think, I don't think it was necessarily a grieving process for me, but I just kind of had lots of light bulb moments where I was like, ⁓ okay. Yeah, and then everything just started making sense slowly over, you know, period of time. then, yeah, now I'm obsessed with ADHD. I talk about it all the time.
Osayomore: Mm. That makes sense.
The ADHD Reframed Project: and everything my whole life revolves around.
Osayomore: I was gonna ask Yes but yeah, you developed a special interest in it now. And then and I like that and I think that ⁓ you can have light bulb moments. You can be like, ⁓ okay, that makes sense. Well it's you don't really have to always be negative about it, like, you know, or feel like it's been such a
The ADHD Reframed Project: My special interest go on
Osayomore: Yeah, yeah. Just look at it from a positive perspective and just think about ways that you could then now now you know, right? So it's not about labeling. You you've been diagnosed, now you know what can you do differently to make it easier for you, to make it more palatable, like to make it more, you know, what what can you do? So I think we should definitely look at it in that way.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And the way that I would explain that would be just learn to harness it so you can reach a full potential, which is pretty much what I try to do every day. And it doesn't always work. You know, there are some days where I just think I'm just not going to try anything because it's not that it's impossible. It's just that my brain just won't like, it won't allow me to do. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's like.
Osayomore: Yes. Yeah, no, no, no.
The ADHD Reframed Project: I just choose not to give myself a hard time if I if I get up in the morning and I try and kind of maybe write some of my case study and I just can't think straight and so then I'll just try and do something different that doesn't take up that high level of cognitive load in my brain and stuff.
Osayomore: It's okay, Emma. Actually, that's okay. There's no price out there or a trophy, I should say, there's no trophy out there for a burnout Emma. Like why, you know, if if you're not Optory, you're not optery and there's no you're not in a competition with, you know, anyone there. So if if this morning it's it's it's looking like a slow morning, it is a slow morning. We'll just do, you know, yeah, we'll just keep it slow and we try again tomorrow. And it's
The ADHD Reframed Project: Exactly.
Osayomore: And I think actually I should probably add this that ⁓ it is worth mentioning that they are people on medication successfully, you know, and they can still have a rough day. So it doesn't mean that because you're taking like your medication and or you have the strategies in place and you're doing all the right thing, it's still possible to have a rough day.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yep. Yep, exactly. And I just think as well, like get inquisitive, like learn how your symptoms present or manifest, you know, learn how your symptoms are. It's about learning about what the things that you find challenging and then trying to put, ⁓ like your own reasonable adjustments in place or, you know, self-advocacy. And it's all about kind of just showing up for yourself, I think.
Osayomore: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Like I say to anybody, like staff within my university, that if they want me to do something, I need specific kind of list and timeframe. So I need a bullet pointed list of what I need to do. And also I need to know how long I've got to do before it's done. If it needs doing that makes sense. that is kind of helped me in my personal life as well. you know,
Osayomore: Mm. Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And the more ⁓ that I kind of do it, think the more it empowers other people to do it as well. And it's not just because I've got ADHD, it's just because I need that. I need, because time is just, yeah, time is a concept that I don't have.
Osayomore: ⁓ Honestly speaking, I agree with you. And like you said, it's not just, you know, I've not been diagnosed with ADHD. And ⁓ if you speak to my husband, the one thing he will tell you is, I have no concept of time. Like it's just, and he keeps saying to me every day, time doesn't change, time is constant every day. And I'm like, is it though? I've been awake since seven. Are we out of the door by nine? No, we're still literally looking for the shoe. We're still trying to eat breakfast. That is, yeah. So I I have alarms set on my phone. seven thirty wake up, seven forty five, wake the kids up, seven you know, I ha and it it just is little adjustments that you make for yourself to have to make your day easier.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. And as human beings, there's strengths that we have and there's ways of doing things that we can kind of just hone in on. ⁓ I like a strength-based approach. I've like a strength-based approach has helped me to find kind of self-acceptance around my ADHD and unmask. And this is a story for another day. But I think for any of us, like find out what your strengths are and then nurture them and look after the
Osayomore: Yeah. I nudge them.
The ADHD Reframed Project: and try and then with the coping strategies in place. Sorry, distracted again. I think anybody, know, like find the things that you find challenging and put some... ⁓ adjustments in place, but also kind of, you know, work to your own strengths, find out what your strengths are and, and kind of tailor your approaches around your strengths rather than just eating. is for anybody, you know, anybody that's sitting there and thinking like in that negative kind of frame of mind, can't do this, I can't do that, or I find this or that or whatever challenging. You know, sometimes by just saying it out loud to another person, it kind of takes the power out of it.
Osayomore: Yeah.
The ADHD Reframed Project: if that makes sense. then it enables, you know, it could then enable you to kind of get on and get the job done. But I think, when it comes to like a strength based approach, you can do a VIA personality strengths test for free. You just need to, you know, create an account and do it. And then just try and focus on with your coping strategies, try and focus on the strengths, try finding ways that work.
Osayomore: Yeah,
The ADHD Reframed Project: well for you. And yeah, as women, there's going to be times when, you know, even without the ADHD, like perimenopause and menopause is not pleasant. So it's just about giving yourself a bit of a break. Like yourself, you're probably, you know, you're working full time, you've got children, you've got a house to run, you've probably got like a million things to do every day. And I can imagine that some days you're just exhausted. Like, it's just so
Osayomore: No To be honest, yeah. Yeah. And it's it's very common and I ⁓ I saw a post recently and it it really ⁓ affected it it really resonated with me because i if it felt like I I was in that bracket because not only, you know, everything that you've called MSO, you've got full time work, you've got the house, you've got every and there's a lot of people now that are sandwich carers. So they are caring for their so they've got kids that they're looking after and they've got their parents that they're looking after. So ⁓ it makes
The ADHD Reframed Project: parents.
Osayomore: it makes it all too much sometimes. So it's good to yeah, speak out when you need help, advocate for yourself and definitely put in your own reasonable adjustments in place.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, people can go on their own journey of self-discovery if they haven't already. But I think primarily for women, like, just give yourself a bit of a break, sit down for 10 minutes, find 10 minutes in a day where you can just sit quietly and just kind of be like, just still and not doing anything, which for some ADHD people that is difficult.
Osayomore: Yeah. Mm.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And for us, a lot of non ADHD is, but I think it's, you know, for women, like we're trying to juggle a million different things. And I think sometimes we all just need to hear, give yourself a break, sit down for 10 minutes in the choir, have cup of tea or a cup of coffee or whatever it is that you like to drink, not alcohol, would suggest you in the day. But. But.
Osayomore: I'm a pharmacist. I am not I'm not endorsing that.
The ADHD Reframed Project: Exactly. Never am I. But it's just about, yeah, just giving yourself a little bit of a break because you're probably juggling a million things. And I do think, you know, there's a lot more pressure put on in today's society, a lot more pressure put on women, as in, you know, we go out to work, we work full time, we raise children, you know, we pay the bills, we have to, you know, eat healthy and exercise. I'm just like, sometimes I'm just...
Osayomore: be a good friend and be there and show up.
The ADHD Reframed Project: yeah be a good friend and yeah yeah yeah and be there for everyone then they need you and then ⁓ yeah just it's when you actually think about it and you're just like yeah it's almost like blows your mind it blows your mind doesn't it so yeah but anyway ⁓ it's been an absolute pleasure ⁓ we've gone four minutes over like always with me we always go over a little bit
Osayomore: It blows it does. It does. He has
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, no. Yeah, because we just started a few minutes past the anyway, sorry, I get easily distracted. Honestly, I've completely forgotten how to pronounce your name now. So I'll say Amara. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been it's been lovely to talk to you thoroughly enjoyed. I think you might be my first non ADHD guest, which is
Osayomore: That's absolutely fine. A Sayomara. Thank you for having me here too. I enjoyed Really?
The ADHD Reframed Project: Yeah, which is special in itself, I think. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, that's that's...
Osayomore: Well, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed our chat. And it's lovely, yeah. Lovely.
The ADHD Reframed Project: thoroughly, yep, sorry. Can I change over my prescribing to you? Probably not. No, if it was possible, then I would because it would be so much easier. Anyway, anyway, of course. Yep, thank you. Thank you very much for that. And thank you for your time today. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversations. And yeah, thank you for all the hard work that you do for...
Osayomore: What? I'm here. If you've got any questions, I'm happy to support. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you.
The ADHD Reframed Project: the prescribing or for ADHD people like from the bottom of my heart, ⁓ I thoroughly, thoroughly appreciate what you do every day. So thank you. ⁓ And yeah, I will ⁓ put the links to your LinkedIn if you've got a website. I will put the links in the description to this episode. So the listeners or watchers can find you.
Osayomore: ⁓ thank you. Thank you very much.
The ADHD Reframed Project: And yet all I ask is that you will share the link once I've edited and it's up there and it's, you know, all singing or dancing, which is never all singing or dancing for me because I've got ADHD and no patience with editing. So yes, anyway, so I hope you have an amazing rest of the week and thank you so much for your time today.
Osayomore: Thank you very much, Emma. You too, thank you very much.
