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[Courtney] Hello, everyone, and welcome
back to The Ace Couple podcast. My name
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is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce.
And if you are listening to this podcast on
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the week that it is released, I want to
wish each and every one of you a very,
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very happy Ace Week. Every year, the
last full week in October is Ace Week.
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It is our longest-running Asexual-exclusive
Pride event out there. And if you’re one of
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the early birds and you’re listening to this
the very day it is released, I want to wish
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you an additionally special Disabled Ace Day.
This happens on Wednesdays during Ace Week.
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[Courtney] And I am so thrilled that
today, for our special Ace Week episode,
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we have a phenomenal guest. This is someone who
has been on our master list of people we want
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to talk to eventually for a very long time, so we
are so happy that we finally have the opportunity.
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So I want to get right to it. So please, go
ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners.
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[Kimberly] Hello, everybody. Many of you
probably know me as The Asexual Goddess.
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I have a YouTube channel and I also have a
Twitter, so I’m usually on those, you know,
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talking about the Asexual experience as a
Black person and vastly different topics,
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such as disabilities, mental health,
and, every now and then, adoption.
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[Courtney] And we are so, so happy to have you
on today for Disabled Ace Day, but also just to
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tap into your wealth of knowledge and experience
in different areas. I don’t know if you want to
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dive immediately right into, but when we were
talking about the prospect of talking about
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adoption and the intersections thereof, that’s
something that is a topic that I personally,
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as a child, did not know very much about. I
did not grow up around a lot of people that had
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experience with adoption. But I think, like a lot
of Americans who grew up in very Christian areas,
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I kind of always heard the, like, “Adoption is a
great option,” or people talking about adoption
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being like a very altruistic thing to do in
sort of an idealized, kind of savior-y way.
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[Courtney] And then, as an adult, I began to
befriend people who have gone through, often, very
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traumatic experiences with adoption or foster care
systems. And so, the last several years — this
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has been one of the topics that I specifically
go out of my way and try to learn more about.
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And the internet’s been great for that, making
friends has been great for that, but I don’t hear
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a lot of discussion about this topic in our Ace
community, so I’m really excited to dig into it.
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[Kimberly] Yeah, definitely. I agree. Like,
we, you know, as a society, definitely kind
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of push adopted people to the side. I noticed,
like, people in the foster care system, people
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in the adoption care system — only talk about
that when we’re talking about, like, abortion,
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which is something I noticed especially, you
know, with the Wade versus Roe getting repealed.
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It’s like, everybody only wants to talk about
adoption in the sense of, like, “Don’t abort;
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adopt!” And it’s like, everybody that I saw, like,
during that time that’s adopted was like, “You
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know what? If you want to abort your child, do
that.” I would have been okay with that, you know?
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[Kimberly] Because the adoption system is more than
what people make it out to be. And it has its good
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sides, obviously, just like anything. And then
it has its bad sides, right? And to most people,
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it has more bad than good. Because on the obvious
side of it, it’s like, you might have — the child
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might have to deal with sexual abuse, physical
abuse, neglect, being treated differently because
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people kind of view biological kids as better
than adopted kids for some reason. It’s just like,
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the way people talk about — even how they’re
like, “I don’t want any — like, I don’t want to
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adopt kids. I want, like, my own biological kids.”
There are, like, undertones with that, you know?
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[Kimberly] It’s just so much to the adoption
system that we don’t think about. Like,
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you’re basically setting the kid up for
abandonment, right? That’s a big part of
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it. You’re going to have some type of abandonment
issues when you get ripped away from your, like,
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biological family. Because — like, I always tell
people, I think there’s a study, and it says,
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like, a child knows their mother in the womb.
Like, you know your mom’s heartbeat. You know…
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You don’t know much, but you can, like, feel
your mother. So I’m like, “When you get ripped
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away from your mother as a child, that has a lot
of different things that come from that.” And so,
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like, people don’t really get that.
But, you know, I’m trying to, like,
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open that conversation up a lot more, because
it’s a lot to the foster care/adoptive system.
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[Courtney] Do you find that — or do you
believe, based on your own experience,
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that there’s anything sort of, like, physiological
about that? I mean, aside from the obvious, like,
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you have to reconcile that cognitively, and
you’re going to come at that differently at
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different points in your life. But when
you are saying, “You feel your mother,
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you know your mother,” do you,
like, feel it physiologically?
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[Kimberly] I would say yes. Like, you’re always
aware of it in many different ways, even, like,
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as a kid. Like, you always know something’s
going on, right? Like, for me — and I mean,
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it’s more cognizant, I guess, but — you know, I
think for me it was a little different because my
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family always told me that I was adopted.
It was never like, “Keep it hush-hush,
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it’s a secret,” so, like, I always knew. And
then on top of that, like, the way that the
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system is set up. Like, I’m going to visit my
siblings and my mom and stuff like that, so,
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like, physically, you know something is kind
of different than what most people deal with,
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because you don’t go and visit your siblings
and mom, like, separately like that.
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[Kimberly] So, it was kind of… It was a little
different. But I think it would be different for
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me if I was… like, I didn’t know. But you know,
even then, I think that the kids who don’t have
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that idea that, like, “I might be adopted” type
thing, they don’t have that — they probably know.
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Like, you can kind of feel it. Like, something
might be a little off, or, like, certain things
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aren’t adding up, and stuff like that. So I
feel like that also is, like, a big thing.
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[Courtney] And how does that play
into one’s sense of identity?
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Because we have all these identities,
whether it’s sexual orientation, race,
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romantic orientation — there are so many
different identities that make up a whole
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person. So I’m just curious what your experience
is as a queer person, as an Ace person. What are
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the intersections sort of there with
your experience as an adoptee as well?
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[Kimberly] It’s pretty interesting now,
especially, like, being an adult with
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it. I think a lot of the parts of my
identity where — when I was a child,
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I didn’t think too much about it, you know? It
wasn’t that big of an issue. Because I was like,
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“Okay, I got adopted. Cool. Whatever. I’m aware
of it.” But at the time, it didn’t affect me,
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right? And then, now that I’m dealing with a
lot of different mental health issues and stuff,
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I’m wondering, like, “Okay, are the
abandonment issues that — you know,
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the symptoms, are those kind of linked to me
being adopted?” And I have to ask those questions.
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[Kimberly] And, as a person that’s adopted and has
faced abandonment issues, talking to my adoptive
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parents is hard. Because they’re like, “No, no,
no, that’s just how you are. Like, you’re just,
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you know, an introverted person, you’re just
this and that, and it has nothing to do with
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you being adopted.” And I’m like, “No, you
have to, like, include that,” right? You have
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to make that a part of your identity so that
you can understand, like, the different parts.
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[Kimberly] How does it affect my mental health?
As we know, a lot of kids in the adoptive and
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foster care system struggle with mental health
probably the most out of other kids. Because,
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you know, you’re dealing with this loss that’s
so great, and you don’t know how to process it,
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and everybody around you is kind
of having that air of, like, “Oh,
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everything’s great!” And then you’re going to
have to process that later in life, you know?
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[Kimberly] So, in terms of abandonment, a lot of
symptoms include things that kind of relate to
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things, like you said, that relate to sexual
orientation, right? One of the things that I
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noticed about, like, bisexuality. One of the
things is, like, you tend to overindulge in,
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like, alcohol, drugs, or, like, different
forms of self-harm. That also is a thing
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with abandonment. And so, like I said earlier,
it’s like, you have to kind of be aware and,
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like, “Okay, is it because of my orientation,
and that’s, you know, more prevalent amongst
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the orientation that I’m with? Or is it,
like, an issue of, like, I’m adopted,
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and, you know, self-harm, overindulgence in
drugs and sex and all that stuff is, like,
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an issue that plagues kids that end up in
an adoption system. So where does it lie?”
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[Kimberly] Like, that’s why I’m very much an
advocate for, like, understanding why — like,
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it kind of goes into the mental health aspect
of it. My sister always says — she’s like,
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“I think you just be trying to, like,
put everything on yourself. Like,
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you look up something and you’re like, ‘Oh,
like, I have this and this.’” And I’m like,
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“It’s not really like that.” I’m just a person
that believes in understanding the labels and,
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like, if you have a word for it, there’s
nothing wrong with having that word,
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you know? People in the older generation
kind of have this belief that, like, “No,
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it’s just — we just use, like, broad words or
derogatory slurs, like the R word. We just like,
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‘Oh, that person is just slow, they’re just dumb,’
da da da.” It’s like, that’s not telling me what
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that person needs, what specific needs they need
to be met, you know, and stuff. So, I’m like —
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[Courtney] Yeah, that’s a great point. Because
what’s really important with any disability or
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with any mental health issue or — there’s strong
overlap between the two; a mental health issue can
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be a disability in and of itself — even if the
label isn’t a slur and isn’t used derogatorily,
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what I think is most important at the end of the
day is: What does that person need? What are the
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access needs? What are the support needs? And
that’s where the ableism in our society comes in,
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because a lot of people just don’t
care what those support needs are.
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[Kimberly] Exactly.
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[Royce] And you mentioned older generations
looking at this in a different light than
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a lot of younger generations. Courtney and I
have talked about how family members — parents,
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aunts, uncles, grandparents — their
generations tended to write off
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anything that seemed to be closely related
to a disability and explain it away. Like,
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we’ve had family members that will refuse to
use mobility aids, even though we can tell that
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they’re struggling. And so the fact that an older
person might look at a younger person and say,
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“Oh, you’re just introverted, that’s just
the way you are,” and not even attempt to
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dive deeper into that, I think might be
part of that same generational concept.
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[Kimberly] It definitely is. Like, it’s… growing
up and seeing that and stuff — like, it honestly
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is kind of defeating. Because, you know, I’ve had
friends who have family and they are disabled and
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stuff, and they’re just like, “Oh, this is
just a bunch of, like, you know, nonsense,
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and you’re just making up stuff and whatnot.”
And it’s just like, I don’t understand how you
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can’t see that. Like, first of all, like, there
are so many people with different disabilities,
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right? And it’s going to be different all
across the board. Even the spectrum, for,
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like, the disability in itself is going to
be different. Like, I got a friend who has
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chronic pain; not going to be the same as another
friend who has chronic pain, and stuff. Like,
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one can work; one can’t. People don’t understand
that. They think, like, “Oh, chronic pain. Like,
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if that person is working, you could work.” And
it’s like, that’s not how that works, you know?
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[Kimberly] And that’s how I kind of look at
myself. Because I’m struggling with a bunch
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of things. Like, I’ve been diagnosed with, like,
anxiety and depression, you know? Anxiety I’ve
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had all my life. It was very debilitating, even
at some points, and stuff. Sometimes it kind
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of goes away and I’m fine, but then, like,
sometimes, it’s, like, really, really bad.
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It’ll come out of nowhere. And people are like,
“What triggered it?” I’m like, “Nothing! Like,
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it’s just panic disorder. It just happens,” you
know? And, like, it’s hard to explain to people.
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[Kimberly] And so, like, there are other things
that I feel like I don’t have a term for that I
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might have an idea about. But, like, talking
to people who aren’t deep into the mental
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health/disability spaces, they kind of are just
like, “Don’t worry about it! If it affects your
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job and stuff like that, like, just… I don’t know,
keep working,” like, you know? [laughs] And so
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it’s like, if I keep quitting these jobs because
something in me is not… It’s not even about being
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satisfied. I just, physically… It’s kind of
like a burnout, right? Like a really, really
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bad burnout. I can’t do it anymore. I’m on the
brink. And so, like, I notice that and I’m trying
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to get help for it. But everybody else is just
like, “Nah, like, everybody wants to quit their
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job. Everybody wants to, you know, not work.”
And I’m like, “But for me, it’s so strong that
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I think it’s an issue and I need to get help for
it.” And they’re just like, “Nah.” Like… [laughs]
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[Courtney] That’s another thing we talk
about a lot. Because, especially as a child,
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if you are a child who has any sort of disability,
neurodivergence, mental health issue, it’s very
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difficult to know that you have a different set
of needs from everyone else. Because you hear the
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way people talk about things and you just assume
that other people are feeling the same way you do.
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And even to a certain extent, like, chronic pain,
too. Like, if you’re a kid who has chronic pain,
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like, people will be like, “Oh, it’s growing
pains. Everyone gets those.” And so you just
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sort of normalize it in your head, like, “Well,
I guess everyone has this. So if everyone feels
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the way I do and they can do this, then surely,
it’s a moral failing on my part If I cannot.”
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[Courtney] And so that’s, like, such a big
part of learning how to understand yourself
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as an adult and, like, as a disabled
adult, as an adult with mental health
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issues — especially if they trace back to
your childhood, because then you have to
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start connecting the dots and like, “Wait
a minute, that wasn’t actually normal.”
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[Kimberly] Exactly.
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[Courtney] “So now that I know that that wasn’t
normal, what do I do with this information?”
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And that kind
of goes hand in hand with, like,
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me getting diagnosed with ADHD. It was just
recently. Like, it was the beginning of last
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month — it was September — and I had went to
a psychiatrist. And you know, it was, like,
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one meeting, and he… Like, I kept droning on
and on and on. And, like, I mean, obviously,
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now I know it’s kind of an ADHD thing, but I guess
I used to attribute it to, like, I’m very much a
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loner, an introvert. It’s kind of going back into
what we said, like, people just be like, “Oh,
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it’s just you being an introvert. So, you know,
socially, you’re just going to keep, you know,
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talking, talking, talking.” And I’m like, “Okay,
cool. Like, yeah, that makes sense.” Because I’m
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always by myself, and I just kind of take over the
conversation because, like, sometimes, socially,
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I’m not thinking, like, “Okay, it’s time to,
like, let other people talk,” type thing,
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you know? And so I just attributed it to that.
And now I’m like, “It makes sense.” Because I
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did assume that I had ADHD at one point. But then
I was like, “I can’t self-diagnose, can’t do it.”
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[Courtney] Ahh. [laughs]
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[Kimberly] You know? “That’s disrespectful,” you
know? Because I’ve seen so many people on my
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Facebook — they have these discussions
about self-diagnosing. And it’s like,
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“You can’t do that because, you know, it’s harmful
and people just are faking stuff.” And I’m like,
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“I get that.” Because I’ve seen people fake
stuff to get attention and stuff like that.
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[Kimberly] But I’m like, my thing was, you’re
going to have to self-diagnose at some point,
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right? Because, like you said, when I was
younger, I kind of knew I had something.
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I didn’t know what. It was very bad. My
anxiety was the first mental health that,
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like, I was very aware of. I don’t even know how
to explain it. It sounds insane. [laughs] Like,
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we used to drive down this road, down Kedzie,
by where my house is, and I don’t know if
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it was because it felt, like, claustrophobic
or what, but, like, I always had this, like,
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feeling. Like, I was like, “I gotta get out of
here,” right? Like, I was dang near ready to
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just undo my seatbelt and just open the door and,
like, get out of the car — like, a moving car.
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[Kimberly] And so I was like, “This isn’t
normal,” right? Like, I don’t got a word for it,
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but it’s not normal why I’m so, like, heightened
and on edge all the time. But I was like, “Okay,
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cool, whatever,” just kind of like rode it out for
years and stuff like that. And then I would, like,
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explain it to my, I think, therapist
at the time and they were like, “Yeah,
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you have panic disorder.” I was like, “Oh,
that makes sense,” [laughing] you know?
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[Kimberly] But I’m like, I had to think about it. I
had to be like — I had to self-diagnose a little,
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right? I had to be like, “Something’s wrong.”
That’s the first thing of, like, a self-diagnosis.
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Like, you have to say something’s wrong so you can
get that help. ‘Cause if you don’t know anything’s
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wrong — like we said about the older generation
— you could just go on in life and just be like,
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“Nothing’s wrong. I’m not —” Especially,
like, with certain things where it’s, like,
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narcissism and stuff like that. Narcissists, like,
they probably don’t know because they don’t know
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the signs, they don’t know the symptoms and stuff,
and they inadvertently might be hurting somebody
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else. Same with, like, BPD or, you know,
personality disorders and stuff like that.
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[Courtney] Yeah, like, the highly
stigmatized, like, cluster B,
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like — that are also used very ableistically.
Like, people will just be like, “Oh,
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don’t trust a narcissist,” even though it’s like,
a narcissist could be a perfectly lovely person.
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s like, we don’t
know, because we don’t have that knowledge
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of it. Because with things in terms of, like,
disability and just mental health in general,
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everybody’s just like, “Don’t talk about it!”
until we want to put a… I don’t know how to
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phrase it. Because there’s a thing now with…
Like I said, narcissism is kind of like ADHD,
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bipolar. I noticed that neurotypical people
or people who don’t have mental illnesses,
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they tend to take a word and then kind of shift
the word’s meaning into something just for them.
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[Courtney] Yeah. There are definitely, like,
colloquial uses of diagnoses. I… For example,
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like, one of my first mental health things
that a doctor ever kind of floated in my
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direction was OCD. And, like, that’s one where
a lot of people will use OCD as, like, “Oh,
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I just like to be very tidy,” or “I’m very
particular about where I want things.” But
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folks who have been diagnosed with OCD know
that that’s not what that is in the clinical
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setting. And that’s kind of a constant battle.
Because people have different ideas about how
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harmful that is or is not, that there’s sort of
a diagnostic use of a word and then a colloquial
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use of a word. And some of it is… like,
sometimes it’s meant to be very harmless.
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Someone isn’t trying to be ableist if they use
one of those colloquial uses. But especially
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the more stigmatized disorders, the ones that
people know even less about, often say, like,
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“This is really, really harmful, because now
it’s further stigmatizing it.” People are,
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you know, getting less access to information
by this sort of colloquial use of this term.
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[Royce] And our media compounds that a lot, too.
Because there have been a lot of trope-y, like,
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genius investigator characters that all have
OCD traits. There are a lot of villains that
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are portrayed as narcissistic, or things
like that that just further the stereotypes.
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And that’s why it’s
definitely important to, like, you know,
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know what these things are. And I feel
like having characters where even, like,
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the term is used and stuff, so that the person
can know, like, “Oh, this is, like…” You know,
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not the whole character, because sometimes your
character, you know, traits can be different
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from your symptoms and stuff like that, but
sometimes they can be, like, the same thing.
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[Kimberly] Because, you know, I always talk about
how, like, with BPD, right? And I don’t know if
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I have it. I just, I feel like I have, like,
certain symptoms of it, but I’m not going to
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say I have it. But I relate to a lot of things
that, you know, the BPD community says. Because
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a big part of BPD is abandonment, you know?
I’m just aware of it. I think with, like, BPD,
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it’s definitely got a stigma to it. I think a
lot of people don’t know what it is. Because,
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like, I try to explain certain things to my
mom and stuff like that, and then she’s like…
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She doesn’t get it. I think they look for,
like, the word and the term. Like “anxiety”:
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you already know what that is. Borderline is
kind of harder because it’s like, “What does that
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mean? Borderline of what?” You know? And, like,
people have that conversation a lot and stuff.
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[Kimberly] And it’s like, no, it’s more like,
“I got abandoned in some way, shape, or form,
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and I’m trying to, like, make sure that
this person doesn’t leave me” type thing,
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you know? And so I’m trying to, like, get my
family to understand that in the context of,
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like we said earlier, being adopted. You
know, even with that diagnosis and stuff. And,
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like I said, I don’t want to, like, say I
have it, but it is very… like I was saying,
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it’s integral to my experiences. Because, like,
yeah, I have those moments where I’m, like,
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constantly asking the person, like, “Do you love
me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love
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me?” It gets annoying. Like, in my mind, I’m
like, “Okay, we gotta stop that,” but I can’t.
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[Kimberly] Those things kind of are the
symptoms of me thinking, like, “Hey,
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I might have BPD.” But even if I don’t get the
diagnosis or whatever, it’s just good to know,
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like, this is something that I do, and if it’s
something different, then that’s cool with me,
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you know? Because I did tell the psychiatrist
I had saw, and he was like, “I think you have,
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like, reactive…” No, is it, like, reactive…? RAD.
It’s reactive attachment disorder. And I’m like,
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“Okay, that’s cool, too,” you know? I’m not going
to argue and be like, “No, I have BPD.” I’m open
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to different things, and as long as you’re
hearing me and thinking steps ahead of, like,
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“Maybe you have this and maybe you have that,”
that’s cool, you know? It might not be perfect,
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but something to explain, like, even the smallest
traits or whatever could be kind of helpful.
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[Courtney] Well, self-diagnosis, I find, is very
often the first step to a real diagnosis, which,
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in my opinion, also — back to one of our previous
points — the diagnosis is not the point. The
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support and the access needs are the point. And,
depending on what diagnosis we’re talking about,
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sometimes you need a diagnosis, especially if it’s
something like medication prescriptions. Like,
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that is the first step to getting that
type of support for things of that nature.
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[Courtney] And… Well, first of all, I know from
other friends of mine that BPD is, like, very
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often misdiagnosed, and a lot of people tend to go
through several different other diagnoses before
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they land on BPD. So sometimes, like, just getting
that diagnosis is also a journey of finding what
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you can relate to in the BPD community and then
sort of self-advocating in the clinical setting.
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[Courtney] But even if that’s not what the final
answer is, sometimes posing the question or
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learning what traits you can identify with and
see in yourself — sometimes that helps give you
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language, also, to even speak to a doctor, to a
therapist or whomever is in your support structure
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to say, like, “Hey, I’m learning this, I kind of
relate to this, what do you make of that?” Because
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otherwise, again, sometimes it’s hard to suss
out, like, what is normal, what is not normal,
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and if you have other diagnoses under your
belts, even something as broad as, like,
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anxiety, it’s like, is this from anxiety or is
this different or new or evolved from anxiety?
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[Courtney] So I think it helps to have a lot of
just, like, tools and a lot of vocabulary in your
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arsenal to be able to go on this journey. Because
I find that doctors can almost be as bad as, like,
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parents and family in older generations
for, like, oh, just dismissing things,
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like, “Ah, that’s normal.” And if you don’t
explain something in exactly the right way,
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they aren’t going to look into it. And of course,
there are some doctors that are great. I’m not
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saying every doctor is terrible and dismissive,
but a lot of them certainly are. And there are
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other things that play into that as well. You
know, women are less likely to be believed,
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Black people are less likely to be
believed, any racialized person. And
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so there are definitely intersections
there as well in the clinical setting.
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[Kimberly] Definitely is. And, you know, like,
I just learned that it’s very hard for Black
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women to get diagnosed with ADHD. And I’m
like, “That’s crazy.” Because I understand
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for women it’s harder because it looks
different than in men, but it’s just,
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like, to think that, you know… Also, on
the stigma of, like, Black women, you know,
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they don’t believe anything we say. We go
in and we’re like, “I feel like, you know,
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something’s wrong.” They’re like, “You’re
lying.” And I’m like [laughs]… you know?
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[Kimberly] So it’s like, that on top of, like,
us not being… like, a lot of our actions and
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stuff being written off as, like, “Oh, that’s just
how Black people act,” and stuff. It’s not like,
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you know, her tapping her nails [taps
nails on table] like this or whatever,
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it’s not an ADHD trait. It’s just
like, “That’s just what they do.
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They just tap their nails because they
have long nails.” And it’s like, no.
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[Courtney laughs]
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[Kimberly] Like, you know? I didn’t even know that!
I was like, “Wait. Like, tapping your nails and
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doing all those little things is stimming?” And,
like, they’re like, “Yeah.” It’s going to look
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different for Black people, or just in general,
it’s going to look different for everybody,
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but with us, because you know, we have, like —
some of us get long nails and stuff like that,
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and then, like, whatever else you have on you and
stuff like that. I can’t think of the exact ones,
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but I was, like, so in shock because they
listed a bunch of them. I was like, “Wow,
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a lot of us might actually have
ADHD!” That’s crazy! You know?
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[Courtney laughs]
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[Kimberly] But it’s kind of cool, like, because now
we have those, you know, things to tell you. Like,
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“Hey, yeah, this is, like, you know,
that.” And it’s good to have that, like,
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terminology because, you know, it’s good,
because people are kind of receptive to it,
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like, “Oh, that’s like, an ADHD thing,”
or “This is an Autistic thing.” Like,
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“Okay,” like, “I’m considering it,
like, I’m thinking about it,” you know?
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[Kimberly] And I think that’s where the whole
self-diagnosis thing gets, like, a bad rep,
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especially on, like, TikTok and stuff, where
sometimes you can tell when things are just
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kind of like for views and stuff like that.
But then some things are trying to be, like,
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informative, and then people were like, “Well,
maybe I do have, like, this thing,” and stuff,
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and then people kind of take it as, like, “Now
everybody wants to be Autistic and everybody
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wants to have ADHD,” and it’s like, I
don’t think anybody wants that stuff.
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You know what I’m saying? Like, it’s not fun
to have, you know? Like, it kind of is very…
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[Kimberly] It hurts. Because, like, for me, when I
was working in, like, Olive Garden, my ADHD stuff
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really kicked into high gear. Like, the memory
loss, it kicked into high gear so bad. Like,
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I would be at the bar. And then next thing
you know, like, I’m walking out to go get
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something. I’m clearly like, “Yes, I need ice.”
And then I’m like, I walk out a couple paces and
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then next thing I know, I’ll stop. I’m like,
“What? What did I…?” You know? And I’m like —
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[Courtney] “It’s gone.” [laughs]
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[Kimberly] Yes! It’s just, it’s gone into the,
into the nethersphere. Like, I’m just like,
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“That’s scary!” Like, because, you know, my family
always pushes it off as, like, you know, “Oh,
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like, you’re just young and you just forgetful.”
Or, you know, my sister would sometimes say, like,
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“You have selective memory. You remember what you
want to remember.” I’m like, “That’s not true.”
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Because if it’s something even small, like, “Oh,
go pick up that book right there that I like,”
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I could forget it. So it’s not selective, you
know? Like, the way she said it before is just so
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condescending, I guess. It kind of hurt. Because
it’s like, I think there’s something going on,
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and I’m kind of scared, because what if I have,
like, early onset Alzheimer’s or something? Like,
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I don’t know. Because I would look it up, and then
I’m like, but if I look it up, then she’s right,
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because I’m justlooking up stuff and, like, I’m
just a hypochondriac, like she said, you know?
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[Kimberly] And it’s like, okay, but having those
things and knowing the symptoms of, like, ADHD and
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not just what everybody thinks ADHD is — which
is, like, “Oh, I’m running like The Flash, I’m
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just running all over the place, and I’m just, you
know, talking, you know, 80 miles per hour, type
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thing.” And that’s so funny, because when my mom
was babysitting for my sister’s friend’s kids, we
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knew that one of them had Autism, so, like, they
already knew that. So it was like, cool, whatever.
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And then we had the little boy, and he kind of
had, like, the stereotypical symptoms of ADHD.
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And so… but then he also had stuff where he would,
like, bang his head on the table and stuff, and he
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just wouldn’t feel it and stuff. And I was like,
“This is just giving ADHD,” right? [laughing]
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[Kimberly] And, like, I felt bad because
I’m like, yeah, him running around, but,
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like, he’s a little boy, you know? People
are usually like, “Oh, don’t just put that
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on them,” and stuff like that, or whatever. But
I’m, like, looking at him and I’m thinking about,
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like, all the things that I do
know at that time, and I’m like,
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“It looks like ADHD.” And so I, like, I told
my family and stuff, and they were like, “Yeah,
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I don’t really know,” and stuff. And then come to
find out, maybe, like, a year later or something,
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he got diagnosed with ADHD. I was like — it’s
so funny, because I’m like — looking at it now,
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with my diagnosis last month, I’m like, “Wow,
real recognizes real,” because we both have ADHD.
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[Courtney] Yes!
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[Courtney and Kimberly laugh]
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[Kimberly] I love that! Like, you know?
I don’t really know too much about the
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Autism scene and stuff like that. Like, so I
wouldn’t have been able to diagnose his sister,
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but I was like, “I definitely know he
got ADHD.” [laughs] So it was hilarious.
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[Courtney] Yeah, and the more you learn, too
— and I think an unfortunate side effect of
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this is that it sort of reconfirms the people
who are in the very ignorant camp of, like,
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“Well, it’s a social contagion. Everyone wants
to have Autism, everyone wants to have ADHD,
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so more people are self-diagnosing, and they
don’t actually have this thing. It’s way
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more rare than you think.” But when you actually
learn what the, like, neurodivergent traits are,
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once you learn how they manifest in your own body,
once you view how they manifest in other people’s
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bodies, you do start to get good at picking
those traits out in other people. [laughs]
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00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:09,800
[Courtney] This actually happened to me really
recently. I had a doctor… my pain doctor actually
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recommended that I take up tai chi, and I was
like, “That’s an interesting idea,” because
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with my dance background, I bet I’m really good
at it, or I would be good at it, and it would be
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something that’s low-impact enough on my joints
that I could do it more regularly than a lot of
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other exercises. And so the two things I was
concerned about, though: first of all, tai
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chi — I’ve seen a lot of, like, middle-aged white
gym bros lately who have, like, just gotten turned
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on to tai chi, and they use it as, like, “This is
a great supplement to your body-building on break
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days!” And it’s like, I am 1000% not going to
learn tai chi from a white gym bro, first of all.
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So I have to find, you know, someone who has some
connection to the culture that I trust. Because I
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also — I love history. I love learning about other
cultures too, so it’s like, I don’t only want to
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learn the art and the exercise, I also want to
learn the history, I want to learn the culture.
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So I’d like to find someone who can do that for
me. But also, I’m still super immunocompromised,
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and I’m not going to be in, like, a closed
indoor space with a huge group of people.
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So where am I going to find a class that I feel
comfortable going to, even if I put my mask on?
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[Courtney] And I got really, really lucky, because
— and this was wild to me. I was just researching,
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like, things in my area. I found a tai chi
master, Chen Huixian, who is literally, like,
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00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:46,320
the 20th generation descendant of the people who
invented tai chi. She was born in Chen Village,
377
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:53,080
which is named after her family, because her
family invented tai chi. And she’s, like,
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00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:59,920
the only descendant of the Chen family who is,
like, regularly teaching classes at the same place
379
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:05,240
in the United States. And I was like, “Wow! Can’t
get any closer to the culture than that. That’s
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00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,580
clearly going to be my teacher.” And she teaches
outside in the park. So I’m like, “Oh, brilliant!”
381
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:16,280
[Courtney] So I’ve been doing tai chi, and I
actually am, I think, pretty good at it and
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00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,720
I enjoy it, and so I’m going out into the park
and I’m doing my tai chi. But I came home one day
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after the first day of tai chi, and I was like,
“Hey, Royce, I think there’s a classmate that I
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00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,880
was talking to that is also Autistic.” And I was
like, “I’m seeing it in everyone now.” Every,
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00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,640
like, new person I meet, or every new group
of people, I’m able to pick out the Autistic
386
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,200
people. But I’m like, “I’m clearly not
going to say anything.” This was, like,
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00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,640
just a theory in my head that, like, Royce
and I are trying to figure out, like, what
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00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:52,140
neurodivergence means to us and, and you know, not
being diagnosed as children, and things like that.
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00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:57,680
[Courtney] But I actually did get my confirmation.
Because now, several months after this first,
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00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,800
like, “I think that person is Autistic,” he
actually did tell me that yesterday. Like,
391
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,840
just casually in conversation, like, “Oh,
yeah, you know, I have Autism, and so X,
392
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:15,044
Y, and Z,” and I was like, “I knew it.”
[laughs] As you said, real recognize real.
393
00:32:15,044 --> 00:32:15,073
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
394
00:32:15,073 --> 00:32:18,840
[Royce] Well, to the groups of people out
there who are very dismissive — I mean,
395
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,080
we hear this a lot with just broader
queer orientations in general, like,
396
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,200
“Oh, you’re just trying to be special.”
And it’s like, “No, I don’t want to be
397
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,040
harassed constantly for just existing or
for mentioning something about my identity.”
398
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:38,640
[Royce] But I think that in both physical and
mental diagnoses, we’re starting to realize now,
399
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,560
possibly because of all the connections
that can be drawn through the internet,
400
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,440
that a lot of things that were considered
rare are not really that rare. I mean,
401
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,400
Courtney, your, like, major diagnoses
throughout your life has been EDS,
402
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,200
and that’s hit the news cycles a few times
in recent years where it’s starting — like,
403
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,360
we’re actually getting numbers of,
“This is how common it actually is.”
404
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,400
[Royce] And I don’t know how accurate this is,
because I didn’t dig into it extensively, but
405
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,680
I’ve seen some people say that the neurotypical
to neurodivergent ratios are like 80:20. Like,
406
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,920
potentially 20% of the population has some form
of neurodivergence. It just may not be… Like,
407
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,640
when I was a kid, the kinds of neurodivergence
that were actually spoken of, I think,
408
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,320
are like one end of that spectrum, and
that there are a lot of other forms or
409
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,720
a lot of other presentations that we’re just
starting to uncover and be able to recognize.
410
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,920
[Courtney] Well, and more heavily researched
amongst, like, young white boys, for the most
411
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:42,160
part — which is really difficult to have that
conversation within the queer community as well,
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00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,080
because we know that the gender binary is
bullshit. [laughs] So it’s still really
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00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:55,080
hard to have conversations like, “Well, Autism
in women looks different.” So I haven’t found
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00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:01,000
the correct way to talk about these things yet,
especially in our Aspec community where we have
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00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,480
such a high percentage of nonbinary folks.
It’s like, every time I hear these, like,
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00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,600
clinical assessments of, like, “Male
versus female neurodivergence,” like,
417
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:19,440
I want more research into gender
expansiveness on top of neurodivergence,
418
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,760
because I don’t have the answers for how to
talk about this. I can only say, like, “Well,
419
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,460
this is what the medical professionals say, and
as a queer person, I know that’s reductive.”
420
00:34:28,460 --> 00:34:34,840
[Kimberly] Definitely. Like, it kind of shoots you
in the foot because it’s like, yeah, you just kind
421
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,640
of backtrack. Like, you know, you’re like, “Yeah,
man and woman.” Then you’re just like, “We know
422
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,360
nonbinary people exist and stuff. But, you know,
they aren’t going to put it in the studies and
423
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,120
stuff.” Because, like, I feel like they just kind
of look at it like that’s too much extra stuff,
424
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,600
like, why are you doing all this extra stuff,
you know? And it’s like, no, it’s important.
425
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:57,320
[Kimberly] So, even, like, the distinction between
a nonbinary person and a genderfluid person,
426
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,640
and, like, you know it’s just such a
broad spectrum — just like, you know,
427
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,880
mental health and disability, so it should
be treated as such, the same way, you know?
428
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,840
[Royce] There’s also a distinction that I think
people are often somewhat uncomfortable to talk
429
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,280
about, where there’s more than one manifestation
of gender. Like, there’s your actual gender
430
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,440
identity. There’s the person who you are. And
then there’s the stuff that gets projected onto
431
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,000
you by the people around you. And some really,
like, early childhood behavioral traits are sort
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00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,360
of conditioned into you by the environment that
you grow up in, and that is very much situated
433
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,640
around how people perceive you or how people treat
you, and not necessarily who you are as a person.
434
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,820
[Kimberly] That is facts.
435
00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:41,360
[Courtney] Even those things, too — like,
neurodivergent people are going to view,
436
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,640
you know, “correct” social behavior —
quote, “correct” — like, differently,
437
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,720
and whether it’s just a sort of like, “It
goes over my head,” or whether it’s like,
438
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:56,800
“I know what the social norm is, but that’s
ridiculous, so I’m not going to adhere to it.”
439
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,360
Wherever you are on the spectrum of that,
like, there’s also those things. So, like,
440
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,600
neurodivergence is going to change what those
conditioned behaviors are, or if there are any.
441
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,280
[Courtney] And I’ve read so many studies that
do look into gender and Autism specifically,
442
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,640
but some that are a little more
broadly neurodivergent, where, like,
443
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:25,000
neurodivergent people do seem to have a higher
likelihood of being queer or not adhering to
444
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:31,240
their gender assigned at birth. And it’s like, I
find that really fascinating! Because there are
445
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:36,520
so many thought experiments you can do with that.
Like, is this just even further proof that gender
446
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:43,120
is all just a social construct? Like, and the
people who don’t care about the social constructs,
447
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,160
more often than not, are the ones who
are bucking them more often, you know?
448
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:53,200
[Kimberly] And it reminds me of, I believe it was
the… It was the Down syndrome group, I believe;
449
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,640
they have, like, a social media presence, and I
think it was, like, the drag queens were, like,
450
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:03,840
reading them or something, and then people were
like, “That’s so horrible!” Like, “Why are you
451
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,720
pushing it onto, like, people with Down syndrome?”
and stuff like that. And so, like, that,
452
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:12,920
at the time, made me think, like you said, that
people who are neurodivergent tend to be more,
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00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,800
like, on the queer spectrum, and it’s like, they
don’t want us to have that autonomy. They think,
454
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,360
like — excuse the language, but this is how
they speak. But it’s like, “You’re slow. You
455
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,360
can’t think past, like, you know, sexuality —
you can’t think about that kind of stuff. Like,
456
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,560
you’re dealing with all these disabilities
and mental health things or whatever. Like,
457
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,880
you can’t possibly know what your
sexuality is. I can tell you that,
458
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,520
though!” Like, “You can’t interact with
this group of people because, like,
459
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,150
that’s just — you know, they’re trying to throw
propaganda at you,” you know? So it’s like —
460
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:42,580
[Courtney] Yeah.
461
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:44,240
[Kimberly] Yeah, that was crazy.
462
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:52,720
[Courtney] It’s so infantilizing, and it’s
where the super fun intersection of ableism
463
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,960
and queerphobia meets. [laughs] Because,
you know, we’re in the Kansas City area,
464
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,360
so we sort of have, like, one foot on either side
of Kansas and Missouri, so we watch both politics
465
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:11,000
very carefully. But Missouri specifically was, you
know, coming out trying to say, like, “A diagnosis
466
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:18,160
of Autism is going to prevent you from being able
to access gender-affirming care.” And it’s like,
467
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,560
why? Because they’re saying, like, “Oh, well,
you know, this person — I want to take their
468
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,080
autonomy away because they don’t know it’s best
for them, so I want to protect them.” But at the
469
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:31,400
end of the day, now you’re still, once again,
insinuating that queerness is something you’re
470
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,640
protecting people from. It’s this dangerous
thing that we can’t let them get involved in.
471
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,600
[Kimberly] Exactly. And I’m like, “Where’s the
energy when it comes to actually funding, like,
472
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,600
certain groups and stuff and disabilities, and
giving them money and, you know, helping — like,
473
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,800
even adopt the kids? Like, you’re just
worried about what they can and can’t do,
474
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,840
and they’re so inept that they can’t,
you know, make decisions on their own,
475
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,280
and stuff like that.” But it’s like, if you
want to put money towards something or you
476
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,160
want to patronize people, like, put your money
where your mouth is, you know? [laughing] Like,
477
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,480
just give us the, you know, resources
that we need for the important thing.
478
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,040
[Kimberly] And then also something that Royce
had said earlier about, like, you know,
479
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,760
gender and being in certain environments and
stuff. It’s so funny, because I have a story,
480
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,560
and I always tell people. When I was growing
up, I was in the foster care system. My favorite
481
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,440
character, if you see her in the background:
Rose Wilson. She’s literally — that’s the same
482
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,540
name as the lady that I was in foster care with.
It’s so wild to me. Like, my favorite character.
483
00:39:27,540 --> 00:39:28,560
[Courtney] Oh, really!
484
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,760
[Kimberly] Yeah! I told my mom, like, “Yeah, my
favorite character is Rose Wilson.” She was like,
485
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,240
“That’s your foster parent’s name.” And
I was like, “Oh my God, that’s so weird!”
486
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:37,870
[Courtney] Wow! [laughs]
487
00:39:37,870 --> 00:39:42,680
[Kimberly] But it gets worse! So, basically, when
I was in the foster care system or whatever,
488
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,840
she used to dress me up like a boy. Now,
that would be cool with me, whatever,
489
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,440
if she didn’t dress my sister up like a girl —
490
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,066
[Courtney] Oh.
491
00:39:52,066 --> 00:39:55,320
[Kimberly] — simply because my
sister is of lighter complexion.
492
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,400
[Courtney] Ugh.
493
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,400
[Kimberly] So, yeah, when Royce was saying that,
like, environment with gender, and then also,
494
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,720
like, being in the foster care system, you really
could just get put in any random person’s house.
495
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:12,160
They could do what they want with you, you know?
Like, I kind of grew out of the binary thing,
496
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,680
so I kind of laugh about it now, but it’s
just like, in the Black community, obviously,
497
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:22,480
like, we kind of attribute dark skin to
man, light skin to woman. So it’s like,
498
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,990
that kind of hurt growing up and stuff. So it’s
like, my sister’s better than me, da da da da.
499
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:31,240
[Kimberly] When I got to my family now, they
didn’t do anything like that. In fact, my dad
500
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:35,560
used to always take me places and then leave my
sister at home. It’s like — it wasn’t anything,
501
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:41,360
like, malicious. He just, you know, I was younger,
so they always attach to the younger kids more and
502
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,680
stuff, and I wish that that didn’t happen. But,
you know, I think that my family was good on
503
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,920
re-correcting those things. And, you know, they
were always trying to look out for me and, like,
504
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,680
grow my hair out and make sure that, you know,
presented as a girl, but then also, later down
505
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:02,040
the line, if that wasn’t who I am and stuff, like,
they are more accepting now, and stuff like that.
506
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:08,300
[Kimberly] So I just feel like it’s different.
Because gender on the spectrum of race, even
507
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:14,800
— like, those intersections are crazy. Because,
like, if you’re, you know, born female and then
508
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,400
you identify with a man or being, like, male or
male pronouns, people are going to question that.
509
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,840
Like, is it because, like, they’re dark skinned?
Is it because they grew up around men? Or is it
510
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,540
because they grew up around lesbians? Like, what
is it? And so it’s an interesting thing, you know?
511
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:36,560
[Kimberly] And so, like, that story will kind of
always stick with me, because, like, it was based
512
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,560
in colorism. And I’m like… you know, I didn’t get
to choose or anything. It’s not like I was like,
513
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:46,000
“I want to be a little boy!” or whatever and
stuff. And that even kind of went over into,
514
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
like, my childhood. Like, me and my sister, we’d
always be like — you know, when you watch TV with
515
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,040
your siblings and stuff, and you’re like, “Oh,
I’m that character, I’m that character,” and stuff
516
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,640
like that, I always try to, like, always align
with the female characters — probably because,
517
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,840
even as a kid, I’m like, you could probably
feel those things too, where it’s like,
518
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,920
this person wants me to be this thing, but
you don’t understand why, you know? Like,
519
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,440
I didn’t understand that she only dressed me up as
a boy for colorist reasons. But now I’m aware of
520
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,440
it, and I’m just like, “What was the reason?”
[laughing] You know? Like, I don’t know. When
521
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,120
it’s in connection with colorism, I think it’s
just more like… That’s why I get flabbergasted
522
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,520
by the situation, because it’s not like you
let me pick out my clothes and was like,
523
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,980
“You pick out what clothes you want.” You just
were like, “Oh, dark skin, short hair: boy.”
524
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:34,760
[Courtney] Yeah. I mean, those are all important
things to consider with, like, environment,
525
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:41,280
because that’s incredibly hostile. And even if,
you know… those clothes and that presentation,
526
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,520
even if that’s something that, you
know, you would like or be okay with,
527
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,840
if you know that you are being treated
differently than everyone else,
528
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:56,160
that’s always going to sit wrong, at least
a little bit. It’s very complicated. Ugh.
529
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,280
[Kimberly] It definitely is.
530
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,480
[Courtney] Yeah. With the foster system as
well — because this is something that I’ve
531
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,320
tried to do as much just like… I don’t want
to say “research.” I guess it is research,
532
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,800
but it’s more of learning of other firsthand
experiences and people who have been through
533
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,320
the system, and not only listening to
people who are or have been foster parents,
534
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:23,720
you know? Because I feel like a lot of people
think that the ultimate goal of the foster
535
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:31,720
care system is to get adopted, and that’s
also not true for a lot of kids. In fact,
536
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:38,920
a lot of kids in the foster care system do
have families, and the goal at the end of the
537
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,440
day should be to get them back to their families
in the safe environment where they belong, once
538
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:52,040
whatever needs to be sorted out and corrected has
been. And from what I understand, from firsthand
539
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:59,080
experiences I’ve been learning about, a lot of
foster parents don’t really respect that or sort
540
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:06,280
of see themselves as a partner in doing what is
truly best for the child, at the end of the day.
541
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:13,720
[Courtney] And one thing that sort of just, like,
opened my eyes in a way that I hadn’t had them
542
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:19,840
open before was I kind of found myself on, like,
Adoptee TikTok a couple years ago. [laughs] If
543
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,640
you find, like, a specific hole of TikTok where
you’re getting a lot of videos on the same topic,
544
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:33,160
you can learn a lot really, really fast. [laughs]
And one thing that was sort of stated was that…
545
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,080
Because you also, at least in the history of
the internet, even back to, like, early YouTube,
546
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,600
there would be all these videos of, like, “Oh
for Christmas, I’m going to adopt my foster
547
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,880
child,” and there’ll be this big, like, emotional
video where everyone’s crying and you have, like,
548
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,360
the adoption paperwork in a box, and it’s this big
reveal, and everyone’s, like, trained to say this
549
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:59,840
is a very feelgood thing. And it might be for that
particular family in that particular situation.
550
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,760
But I think it’s given a lot of people the
perception that adoption is always a very good,
551
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,700
happy, emotional thing and it’s positive for
everyone involved, and that is so not the case.
552
00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:19,800
[Courtney] But I saw someone who was adopted and
then became a foster parent, so had sort of both
553
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:26,280
sides of this equation, perspective-wise. And
she was saying that she’s learned and she’s
554
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:32,480
decided over the years that she would never
adopt a child before a certain age if their
555
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:39,840
parents were still alive. She was like, “I would
wait until I felt like that child was old enough
556
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:46,660
to truly understand what adoption means and
to be able to consent to my adopting them.”
557
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:51,960
[Courtney] And I was like, “Whoa!”
Because when it comes to the foster
558
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,600
care system — I’m sure you can tell me far
better than I could tell our listeners,
559
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:02,000
but it seems like there’s a lot of autonomy that
is taken away from children in the foster care
560
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,800
system. And so that was sort of the first time I
had someone use the word “consent.” And of course,
561
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,160
once you use that word, it makes all
the sense in the world to me. Like yes,
562
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:19,160
where is the consent in this system? That is
a way that I haven’t seen that presented yet.
563
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:25,520
[Kimberly] Absolutely. All of that. I’m trying to
process. But, yeah, like, a lot of people — I feel
564
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,120
like that’s why they want to adopt the younger
kids. Because, like you said, there is no consent
565
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,840
there. Like, it’s a baby. They don’t know what’s
going on, and stuff like that. Whereas the kids
566
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,840
who are older and stuff and have seen a lot of
different things and stuff like that, they’re kind
567
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,000
of deemed as, like, disposable. Because it’s like,
“Okay, you know what’s going on. You clearly don’t
568
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,720
like it, so you might have a reaction or behavior
that’s going to go against what I want. I want
569
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:54,080
a perfect child. I want a child that’s going to,
you know, act like a biological child,” you know?
570
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,560
[Kimberly] And so, like, even that in
itself is something that we don’t talk
571
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,840
about or think about. And so, like,
yeah, I think that a lot of the times,
572
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:07,200
people have these conversations about adoption
being a form of slavery — like, child slavery and
573
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,920
stuff. And I think that that’s a good thing, like,
that’s starting to come out of this and stuff,
574
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,160
because it is a form of that. Like, it’s just
like, “Okay, let me throw some money at this,
575
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,600
and then I’m’a buy a child.” And you don’t think
about the ramifications of the things that that
576
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,680
child’s going to go through, you know, things
that that child’s going to feel emotionally.
577
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,360
[Kimberly] My mom and my family took classes for,
you know, me and my sister so that we can get
578
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,120
adopted and stuff. But I don’t think those classes
really even help the kids that are, you know,
579
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:40,000
in that system, because it teaches you, like,
“Hey, don’t leave any plugs undone, or don’t do
580
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,560
this,” and stuff like that. But when it comes down
to, like, “How’s that kid going to feel when they
581
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,440
get older, knowing that they’re adopted? What
are you going to do to help that experience?”
582
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,400
Because that’s a form of trauma. Like, you
got abandoned, you lost somebody, you know?
583
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,720
[Kimberly] And it’s kind of weird how
adoptive parents act and they’re just like,
584
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:04,960
“Why are you acting like this? Like, what do you
have to be sad about? What’s your struggle? Like,
585
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,480
you got adopted. That’s great, right?
Like, that’s the end goal, right?”
586
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,680
[Courtney] “Be grateful.”
587
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,440
[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s just like,
I hate talking to my family about, like,
588
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,720
adoption, because they really just
throw it off and they’re just like,
589
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,280
“I don’t know what you got to complain about.
You have a nice house. You have, you know,
590
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,640
this and that.” And I’m like, “I acknowledge
that! I’m grateful!” Because, like, even now,
591
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,240
looking at it… I was talking to my mom the
other day. I’m like, “If something, you know,
592
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:34,000
happens or whatever, I get the house that I’m
living in and stuff like that.” That’s great!
593
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,520
[Kimberly] But, you know, even that, where there
are great things that come of being adopted and
594
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,840
having resources and a different family and
stuff, there’s always going to be the bad,
595
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,640
too. Like, my mom gave me up. She just
— she couldn’t take care of me. Every
596
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,000
sibling I had got put into foster care. Some
of my siblings have died and stuff like that,
597
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,760
and I have to wonder: is it because our mom
put us in foster care? And that’s a big thing,
598
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,260
too. Adopted kids have to think: would things
be different if I wasn’t in foster care?
599
00:49:01,260 --> 00:49:04,840
[Kimberly] The way we process trauma is
going to be different than other people,
600
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,960
because there’s a form of like… I don’t
want to say “survivors’ grief,” but, like,
601
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,920
it’s just a form of grief where it’s like,
“Life could have been different if I stayed
602
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,200
with my mom. My brother would be alive. My sister
would be alive, maybe. Or maybe I would be dead.
603
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:21,200
Who knows?” But it’s just like, you kind of
grieve for that thing that never happened.
604
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:26,600
[Kimberly] And people don’t… you know, when these
discussions of adoption happen, it’s just like,
605
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,000
“At least you got a family.” And it’s like,
no, because a family doesn’t understand
606
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,520
you. You know? You try to connect with your
biological family. I’m telling you — like,
607
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:43,600
I can’t even make a connection with my own
sibling. It’s hard, because everybody’s like,
608
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,700
“Oh, well, like, y’all older now. Y’all can
connect.” I don’t know them! [laughs] You know?
609
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:53,520
[Kimberly] And it’s like, that hurts. Because
I really want to, you know, reach out to my
610
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:58,280
brother. He’s also like me. We’re introverts,
so if we get together, it’s cool. We not like,
611
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,200
you know, “You haven’t talked to me in a
while,” or nothing like that. But like,
612
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,400
me and him are cool. And then I got another
brother. He’s in prison. He’s going to get out,
613
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,840
I think, this month. And I’m trying to, like,
do as much as I can for him, in the sense of,
614
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,800
you know, as much as I am allowed to do,
you know? Just, like, being there for him,
615
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,480
trying to understand, and be receptive
and try to help where I can and stuff.
616
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,040
[Kimberly] Because I look at it like
this: I got adopted. Me and my sister,
617
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,840
we got adopted. My brothers, they didn’t get
adopted. They were in the foster care system.
618
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,320
And even that’s different, you know? Because,
like, when you’re adopted, it’s a different
619
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,240
experience than being in the foster care all your
life. Because once you got to get cut off, like,
620
00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:45,160
you don’t get things, because you’re not related
to the family, you don’t have that in paper,
621
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:50,240
in writing. And so all of my brothers kind
of have different life paths. Some of them,
622
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:53,640
like, went down the wrong path; some
of them went down, like, okay paths,
623
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,320
and stuff like that. But I’m thinking,
like, what would be different if they
624
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,440
got adopted? Would it be different if we
stayed with our mom? Would it be worse?
625
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:07,680
[Kimberly] And so, you know, I definitely also
think a lot about the males in the adoption
626
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:13,880
system or the foster care system. Because I have
a friend right now. His name is Lucian. And he is,
627
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,480
you know — he just, like, aged out of
the system and stuff. So he was given a
628
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:23,000
place to stay for a while, but once you’re 18,
they kind of like, “You got to go,” you know?
629
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:23,760
[Courtney] “Bye.”
630
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,040
[Kimberly] Right? I’m like, [sarcastically]
“Wow, that’s useful,” you know? And so I’m
631
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,680
always trying to be there for him, even though,
you know, technically, when we were talking,
632
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,680
he was a minor and stuff. And, like, I remember
talking to my friends, and it would be like,
633
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,840
“Why are you talking to him? Like, he’s a kid.”
And I’m like, “To you, it looks like something
634
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,880
that’s not, but for me, it’s like, a person in
foster care is always going to be of my, like,
635
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,800
utmost priority, right?” Because I understand
what it looks like. My brothers went through that.
636
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,840
[Kimberly] I don’t want anybody, especially a
young boy, to feel like he doesn’t have anybody,
637
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,800
you know? Like, you could always talk to me
about your feelings. If you need to talk about
638
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,520
the foster care system, if you feel like you’re
struggling in life or whatever, I’m always there.
639
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,200
I can’t give you money. I can’t, you know, give
you the resources you need. But if you need to
640
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,320
talk to me, I feel like I’m always an open book
for, like, foster care and people in the adoption
641
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,480
system. Because, like, they kind of gravitate
towards me. So I’m like, I just want to be there
642
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:22,440
for somebody like I wish people were there for
my brothers and for us. I want to be that for
643
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:27,520
a lot of people. And he just didn’t understand.
I didn’t fault him because, like, you’ve never
644
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:32,000
been in the system, so it’s like, you wouldn’t
get it, but it’s okay. Like, it’s not, like,
645
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,600
a bad thing. It’s just, that’s just how it is,
sometimes. It kind of looks weird, but it’s like,
646
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,920
when you’ve seen people be abandoned like that,
you just want to bring abandoned stuff, you know?
647
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:49,840
[Courtney] Yeah. I… a very different situation,
but that is something — when you said that you
648
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,360
don’t know your siblings, and, like, you can
get to know them as an adult, but you didn’t
649
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:02,160
grow up in the same environment with them, that
really is something. Because I — when I was,
650
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:10,200
like, 10 or 11, like, double-digit child, like,
just about on the verge of of teenagedom, and,
651
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:17,120
like, my father had just gotten out of jail,
and he was, like, just about to move all the
652
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:22,400
way across the country and just about to up and
leave and I’d never see him again. But he, like,
653
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:28,920
sat me down and handed me two photos of two people
I’d never seen before, and he’s like, “This is
654
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,360
your older brother and your older sister. I never
told you that they exist, but they’ve known about
655
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,280
you since the day you were born. And they’ve
seen pictures of you, and they love you.” And,
656
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,040
I mean, he was also, like, very much lying, and
he’s like, “Your mother didn’t want you to know
657
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:48,080
about your siblings,” which was not true. That
was a lie. But, like, he told me this at this age,
658
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:54,000
and I was like, “What am I supposed to do with
this information? Like, I have siblings that I
659
00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:00,200
never knew about? What?” And, like, at that point,
he gave me their phone numbers, and we’d start,
660
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,300
like, talking on the phone, because they
also lived all the way across the country.
661
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:08,120
[Courtney] And for a while, when we were all
still kids, even though they were older than me,
662
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:12,760
like, we were hitting it off a little bit, and we
were getting to know each other. And I was like,
663
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,600
“Wow, I’m going to have a real, like, sibling
relationship with them.” But I haven’t spoken
664
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,560
to either of them in 15 years, [laughs] and I’ll
probably never speak to either of them ever again.
665
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,440
And it’s not because we have any bad blood
or anything. It’s just that we don’t actually
666
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,080
really know each other. And the only thing we
really have in common is the fact that, like,
667
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:37,040
our dad left all of us, [laughing] so. And there’s
only so much bonding you can do over that. Like,
668
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,080
there’s definitely a little bit at the
beginning where we can, like, you know,
669
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,000
vent to each other and be like, “Yeah,
what a piece of shit.” But then, like,
670
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,160
after that, it’s like, what else is
there? It’s kind of forced, you know?
671
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,960
[Kimberly] Yeah. Definitely. Like, my
siblings — love y’all, obviously. You know,
672
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,200
some of them I have things in common with.
We all like anime and stuff like that. Might
673
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,760
like the same music, who knows, you know?
Like, my brother who’s getting out soon,
674
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,920
I know he likes anime. So I used to send him
books and stuff, like different mangas and stuff.
675
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,120
Because I’m like, “Okay, whatever books you want,
like, just let me know and I’ll try to, you know,
676
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,880
send them in there, because I want you to have
something to do.” And, you know, when he gets out,
677
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,200
I plan to — you know, it might not happen, who
knows — but, like, I plan to take him to different
678
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,520
conventions and stuff with me and my friends and
stuff, just to keep him, like, on the right path,
679
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,360
hopefully, so he doesn’t feel like, you know,
“There’s nothing I could do outside, and,
680
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,400
you know, I gotta go back to the same thing,” and
stuff like that. Like, I want you to feel like,
681
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,400
you know, you got somebody who knows about
this stuff, who can get you in spaces and
682
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,280
stuff or whatever. Then just ask me, we could
go, we could hang out whenever you want.
683
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,480
[Kimberly] But I just feel like that’s something
that you need to have, even if it doesn’t bring
684
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,680
us closer. Or if it does, that’s great.
But it’s just like, when people ignore you,
685
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,120
especially fresh out of prison and stuff,
and they treat you like you’re an ex-con,
686
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:59,280
there’s nothing more to you and stuff, it
kind of goes into, like, the adopted thing
687
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,480
and stuff. Like, it’s just like, you feel a
different type of abandonment all over again,
688
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:08,400
because nobody really wants to put into you,
you know? And so, that kind of goes into,
689
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:13,280
like, my belief of, like, people in the foster
care system and the adoption system… I always
690
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,720
say — it sounds extremist, I guess? I don’t
know — but I always say that we should get,
691
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:20,680
like, free therapy for life. Like, I
don’t know. But, like, I think that —
692
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,040
[Courtney] Everyone should
have free therapy for life.
693
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:23,830
[Kimberly] Definitely.
694
00:56:23,830 --> 00:56:27,390
[Courtney] Let’s socialize therapy. [laughs]
695
00:56:27,390 --> 00:56:32,400
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Because I’m like, the
things you deal with — whether it’s work-related,
696
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,360
you know, your love life, just in general, I
feel like, definitely, people could definitely
697
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:41,880
benefit from therapy and stuff. And I just feel
like, you know — like, adopted kids get therapy
698
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,720
and stuff like that when you’re coming
up, but it’s usually to make sure that,
699
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:50,120
you know, nothing’s happening in the foster
care system or the adoptive home. And then,
700
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,520
once everything’s good, they’re like, “Oh,
yep, you don’t need anything anymore. Like,
701
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,540
you’re good.” And I’m just like,
we have to deal with abandonment!
702
00:56:56,540 --> 00:57:01,360
[Kimberly] And I think it gets worse when you’re an
adult because you’re like… all these feelings of,
703
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:07,720
like, inadequacy and, you know, what everybody
deals with, but it’s kind of like on 100. Because
704
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:12,240
it’s like, “My mom didn’t even want me. Like,
how can I be anything in this world or whatever,
705
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:16,520
where my parents didn’t want me? I can’t make no
connections with anybody.” You know, that’s where
706
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,560
I’m kind of at, where it’s like, I can’t even
connect with my siblings, but I want to go to art
707
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,880
school and connect with people and network. It’s
like, you can’t even connect with your family!
708
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,220
You know? And that kind of hurts. Because
it’s like, you think about stuff like that.
709
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:33,760
[Kimberly] And so I wish there was a way to
kind of reintroduce people into the world
710
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,440
after you’ve dealt with the foster care
system and like adoption and stuff. Like,
711
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:43,440
give them the benefits, like, understanding
how they feel. Because I see it a lot of times,
712
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,440
like on social media and stuff, people
are always like, “Yeah, this person is
713
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,640
like… they don’t care about anybody else,
they just acting a way where it’s, like,
714
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,480
not understanding of other people’s feelings
and stuff.” And I’m like, “I wonder if that’s
715
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,480
something that, like, adopted kids do because
we’ve been abandoned. So, like I’m going to
716
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:04,600
act in a way that an abandoned person will act,
you know? I’m gonna ghost you. I’m going to not
717
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,920
talk to people. I’m going to, you know, cling
to maybe one person and that’s it,” you know?
718
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,760
[Kimberly] So it’s like, you gotta learn
how to deal with those things, obviously,
719
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,560
but I feel like you need the resources. You
definitely need the resources when you can’t even
720
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,440
process those things growing up, and then you’re
an adult, and now you’re just like, “Yeah, I got
721
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,040
abandonment issues. I’m not going to do anything
about it, though.” Like, you know? So, yeah.
722
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:34,760
[Courtney] Do you personally consider the adoption
and foster care systems to be disabling systems?
723
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,600
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Like, they
don’t help, you know? And, like,
724
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:44,560
what you had said earlier about how they should
be put in place to help kids reunite with their
725
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,560
families and stuff. I think that that should
be the main goal. Because when you have all
726
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:54,360
these extra steps… you know, you don’t speak
about the adoption system highly; in society,
727
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,400
we don’t have any good representation. Every
time I hear about adoption, it’s literally like,
728
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:04,560
“You’re adopted!” on TV and it’s just like,
“What is…? What? Okay. So, what’s the plot?”
729
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:09,200
Are they going to be like, “I don’t need
to be biological. Like, I’m fine with being
730
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,760
adopted.” There is nothing. They’re just like,
“You’re adopted.” That’s an insult, you know?
731
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:18,360
[Kimberly] And so it’s like, I think that it
definitely is disabling because you need education
732
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:24,240
on it. Even outside of the adoptive parents
learning about stuff, we, just as a community
733
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:29,520
and as a society, just need to know about adopted
people and foster kids and stuff and just how
734
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:35,080
to just interact with them, how to make them not
feel like being adopted or foster care is, like,
735
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:40,200
shameful. Like, because my family, they always
ask me, like, “Why do you tell people you’re
736
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,080
adopted?” I’m like, “Why not? Like, what’s the…”
I don’t know. Like, I don’t see it as a bad thing.
737
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,680
I guess, like, I could see people weaponizing
it, but I don’t see it as a bad thing, you know?
738
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,480
[Kimberly] I just think that the
way that the system is set up,
739
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:58,600
it definitely doesn’t allow for you to grow
as a person. Like, it just kind of stunts you,
740
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,120
and then it just throws you into the world, like,
the cold world and stuff, and it doesn’t — like,
741
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:08,760
obviously, you shouldn’t be coddled and stuff, but
just the way that they interact with foster kids
742
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:14,000
and adopted kids and just kind of act like your
existence doesn’t matter after a certain point,
743
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,600
you know, after your safety or
whatever is kind of solidified,
744
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,800
like, they don’t consider the emotional and
mental harm that the foster care system can
745
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,340
pose and stuff. And that’s where it kind
of becomes disabling, I would say, yeah.
746
01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:35,960
[Courtney] Yeah. And it really seems to, like
— although it’s presented to be a very, like,
747
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,400
life-saving thing, something that’s
about safety, at the end of the day,
748
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:47,880
a lot of it to me just seems to be about
control. Because once a kid turns 18, well,
749
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:52,640
you can’t legally control them anymore,
so they’re on their own. But they still
750
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:59,320
might need help and support. There are lots of
kids who stay in the home through college or
751
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,520
even if they don’t go to college, they’ll
stay in the home for a few more years. So
752
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:08,440
you really are kicking someone out in just,
like, a really pivotal time in their life,
753
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,800
where a lot of support normally is needed
because you’re in a very transitional period.
754
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,560
[Courtney] But I was thinking of this
earlier, too, when you, you know,
755
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:22,880
likened adoption to slavery in the sense of,
like, paying money and acquiring a child. I
756
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:27,200
think that that’s definitely an issue
for adoptive parents, but it’s kind of
757
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:34,840
an issue for the way people view parenthood as a
whole. Because there are definitely people who,
758
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:43,560
even with their own biological children, who just
want and need control over them. And I consider
759
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:49,880
children in general to be, like, an oppressed
class of people, and sometimes people will,
760
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,820
like, squint at me when I say that and
be like, “No, everyone’s been a kid.”
761
01:01:53,820 --> 01:01:59,240
[Courtney] It’s like, but no, actually, think of
it. Kids do not have as much autonomy as they
762
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:05,360
usually deserve. And obviously, depending
on age, depending on, you know, mentality,
763
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:11,440
there are certain things that adults are going
to need to help and make the decisions for. But
764
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:17,240
it’s less of a partnership and “I’m partnering
with you to do what’s in your best interest,”
765
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:22,040
and more like, “I’m telling you what’s in your
best interest.” And, I mean, people even use,
766
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:27,080
like, “You’re childish” as an insult. And I always
say, like, “Don’t say that, first of all, ever,
767
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:32,640
but don’t say it around kids.” Like, kids
hear when adults say to each other, like,
768
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,880
“You’re acting like a child. You’re acting like
a kid.” And it’s like, what’s a kid supposed to
769
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,900
do with that? They can’t control their age.
[laughs] So much of it is about control.
770
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:47,840
[Courtney] And I think so much of that “I
control my child” mindset is so much about
771
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:54,760
what the queer community is fighting for when
it comes to things like gender-affirming care,
772
01:02:54,760 --> 01:03:01,760
when it comes to things like being able to
use a child’s correct pronouns in schools,
773
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,720
and things. Because all of the conservative
parents that are trying to, you know,
774
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:13,920
ban the books and “My child is not going to be
brainwashed or transed” or, you know, all those
775
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:18,600
horrible things they say. It’s about control.
They want to control not only their own kids,
776
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,580
but all the kids [laughing] around their
kids and all the kids in the entire system.
777
01:03:23,580 --> 01:03:29,560
[Courtney] And so when we look at
parenting as controlling another human,
778
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,000
there are going to be those issues
that are just going to get even more
779
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:40,040
exaggerated in systems like foster care and
adoption, when a child is even more at risk.
780
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,200
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And, yeah,
I see a lot of people — again,
781
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:48,600
on social media — that are always talking
about how, like, “Oh, it’s my child,
782
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,470
I can do whatever I want with them,” and stuff,
and like they are a possession. And I’m like —
783
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:54,150
[Courtney] “Parents’ rights!” [laughs]
784
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:58,520
[Kimberly] Yeah, I just, you know, okay, but
it sounds like you’re going to like mentally
785
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:04,200
mess up your child in some way. Because just
the brain, like, the mentality that you have,
786
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:08,720
is already kind of messed up, where it’s
like, “I can do whatever I want.” And,
787
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:14,080
like, the implications even of that saying
in itself just brings about so many different
788
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,400
thoughts. Like, okay, you can abuse your child
— like, physically, sexually, whatever? Like,
789
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,960
don’t say that! You know? Like, it’s not about
control; it’s about being able to kind of guide
790
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:29,720
your children in a way that makes them happy, but
then also, you know, not makes the parent happy,
791
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,200
but just kind of makes them happy because
their kid is happy, I would say. Like,
792
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:38,900
you should be worrying about your child’s
ultimate end goal of being happy, their happiness.
793
01:04:38,900 --> 01:04:43,160
[Kimberly] And that reminds me of being, like,
rehabilitated into you know, the world after being
794
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:48,680
in the foster care system, because, like, I just
think that they throw us into the world. But then
795
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:54,760
it’s also like, if we don’t have those spaces to
be able to tell how we feel and stuff like that,
796
01:04:54,760 --> 01:05:00,440
we’re going to ultimately, like I said before,
hurt people and just kind of throw our trauma on
797
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:05,640
them. And that’s kind of how… The foster
care system kind of acts as that parent,
798
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:09,080
where it’s like, “You’re just going to do what
I say. You’re going to do it how I say. And
799
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,000
then you’re going to be okay with it.” You know?
“You’re going to be happy at the end of the day.”
800
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,440
[Kimberly] Like, it’s kind of like the
way parents act with queer kids. Like,
801
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,000
“You’re going to be straight because I said you’re
going to be straight, and you’re going to be okay,
802
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:24,360
because you realize that I’m the parent and I
control the situation, so whatever I say kind
803
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,480
of goes,” or whatever. You know? That’s kind
of how the foster care system is. It’s like,
804
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,280
“You’re going to be okay. You’re going to be
just fine. You’re not going to act like a person
805
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,840
who just got abandoned. You’re not going to act
like a person who’s been on their own and stuff
806
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,400
and dealing with their own emotions and stuff.
We’re going to ignore that mental health stuff,
807
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,280
the disabilities and stuff you might have because
of this. Like, you’re just going to be okay,”
808
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:51,680
you know? [laughs] So, like, it definitely
links up and has very similar traits to even,
809
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,280
you know, biological people and how
they, you know, interact with their kids.
810
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:00,760
[Kimberly] And it’s kind of funny because, yeah,
DCFS and the adoption and foster care system,
811
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,360
basically are a parent, you know?
They are, like you said earlier,
812
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,440
centered around the parents. It’s not about
the kids. It’s not about the kids’ consent,
813
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:13,680
what they want. I see a lot of kids wanting to
go back home. I see a lot of kids, you know,
814
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:18,680
dealing with things and stuff like that. And, you
know, they just want to sugarcoat everything and
815
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,880
just kind of make it easier for the parents. So,
it’s like, you know, “This kid is acting up or
816
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:28,720
whatever. Okay, we’ll give them therapy so that
they stop acting up for you.” Like I said earlier,
817
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:33,160
it’s like slavery. It’s like, “Oh, your slave is
acting up or whatever. We’ll just whip them on the
818
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,440
side and stuff like that and then bring them back.
They’ll be fine,” you know? And it’s just like,
819
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,560
it’s not how you deal with these things,
because the therapy is not for the kids,
820
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:47,040
it’s for the kids’ behavior in the face of the
parent, and it’s just… It’s so much stuff to it.
821
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:52,640
[Kimberly] And you know, that’s why I, like, really
am concerned for the kids nowadays especially,
822
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:57,200
you know? Me and my mom, we fostered
some kids — a lot of different kids.
823
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,160
All of these kids have different stories,
and they have different behavioral traits,
824
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,520
and the reason they act a certain way
gonna be different all across the board,
825
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,720
right? And two stories that I can remember. We
had two boys and stuff, and they were great,
826
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,520
you know? They come into the house,
and I always ask myself, I’m like,
827
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,760
“How are they feeling?” You know? Like, you know,
they just going into a new environment, they
828
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:22,580
packed up their stuff and now they’re in somebody
else’s house — like, how does that feel, you know?
829
01:07:22,580 --> 01:07:27,040
[Kimberly] Even though I know how it feels
a little. One thing I noticed about foster
830
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,640
kids and adopted kids: we are happy to just go
into somebody’s house randomly. We’re just like,
831
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:37,000
“Wow! A new place!” You know? And then we don’t —
you know, ’cause we’re kids, we don’t think about,
832
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,600
like, the implications of what’s about
to happen or whatever. It’s just like,
833
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,080
“I’m in a new place, cool! I get a room!
I get whatever and stuff,” you know?
834
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:49,240
[Kimberly] And so, like, I always worry about the
kids. And I’m like, I want to do what I do for,
835
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:53,880
like, my older friends, where it’s like, “You are
feeling bad. If you want to go home, voice that,
836
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:59,200
you know? Be receptive. Tell me. Like, I get it.
I can’t really do much, but I can affirm you in
837
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:04,000
that sense of, like, I understand how it feels
to you know, maybe feel a certain way.” But,
838
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:08,080
like, you know, I want to be able to say, like,
“You can say that here,” you know? Not like,
839
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,640
with a lot of adoptive parents, they
get hurt when you say things like,
840
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,030
“Oh, I want my mother, I want, you
know, da da da.” They’re just like —
841
01:08:15,030 --> 01:08:16,790
[Courtney] “Am I not good enough?” [laughs]
842
01:08:16,790 --> 01:08:20,640
[Kimberly] Exactly. It’s about them!
It’s about them and their feelings
843
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,720
at the end of the day. I remember I had
voiced that I wanted to, like, you know,
844
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:28,800
know about my dad and my mom and stuff like that,
and my family literally acted like that and I was,
845
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:34,400
like, I was taken aback. I was like, “I don’t…
Okay, I’ll just let it go, you know? Like,
846
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:39,200
I won’t ask about it anymore.” Because they just
felt so offended and mad. And I was just like,
847
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,520
it gives you that mentality of, like, “Don’t
bring that up. Don’t do that to me. Don’t
848
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:48,620
hurt me.” And it’s like, you don’t think I’m
hurting that I just don’t know my own family?
849
01:08:48,620 --> 01:08:52,440
[Kimberly] And so, like, for me, obviously,
I want to try to adopt when I, you know,
850
01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:56,800
have kids and stuff like that, because I
feel that connection: I know what it’s like,
851
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,400
I know what to do, and I know what not to
do in certain situations. So I will be like,
852
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,040
you know, “If you want to talk to your
family or whatever, just let me know,
853
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,640
I’ll get that started for you. You don’t have
to go look for them on your own. You can just
854
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:13,400
let me know. I got you.” You know? Whereas
a person who wasn’t adopted are just like,
855
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,120
“You don’t need to do that.” And it’s like,
it’s so jarring, I’m telling you. Like,
856
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,320
the way they just react to that, it’s, like, a
trauma that you don’t need. Like, why are you
857
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:25,860
being so mean to me about this thing that I had
no control over, you know? It’s so heartbreaking.
858
01:09:25,860 --> 01:09:32,120
[Kimberly] And so that’s why, with the boys, it
hurt me because their mom was like, you know… And,
859
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:36,280
keep in mind, these boys are, like, maybe like
five and eight or whatever. And she was like,
860
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,480
“Yeah, I’m not ready to have no kids,” and
stuff like that. And I’m like, “I get that,”
861
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:44,720
but at the same time, that hurt me, because,
like, you’re hurting your kids. And maybe,
862
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,200
like, if it was a situation where it was,
like, drugs and stuff like that, or, like,
863
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:52,360
abuse in the house, I get that; it’s kind of out
of your control. But to just give your children
864
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:56,720
up and to have that as the reason really hurt
me. Because I’m like, “These boys are going to
865
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,360
have to deal with that for the rest of their life.
Like, they’re going to recognize, like, ‘Oh, yeah,
866
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:06,160
I was kind of in foster care for a second there.
Why was I in foster care?’” And then, you know,
867
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,440
you have these conversations with people around
you and they’re like, “Yeah, your mama didn’t
868
01:10:09,440 --> 01:10:13,400
want you. Like, she just said she didn’t want
no kids,” or, like, whatever. And it’s like,
869
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:17,960
I hate for to think that they have to navigate
life even with that thought, and they hear it. I
870
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:22,360
feel like no child should have to feel any
type of abandonment. I feel like that’s the
871
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:28,420
worst thing to experience. Like, that’s your first
real trauma, and at such a young age. It’s unfair.
872
01:10:28,420 --> 01:10:32,960
[Kimberly] And then the other story was
of a little girl that we had took care
873
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:38,000
of. And she had a phone, which is
weird in the foster care system,
874
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,616
because they usually take any kind of
connection you can have with your family.
875
01:10:42,616 --> 01:10:42,630
[Courtney] Ugh.
876
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:47,040
[Kimberly] And just so that — you know. Which
is like, I get it, why you do have that,
877
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:51,600
but then also I don’t. She also had, like,
medical issues and stuff, so I kind of get it,
878
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,800
but I kind of don’t. And so, like, her grandma
would kind of coach her to act a certain way
879
01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:00,800
with us and stuff. And, like, she would just act,
you know, really, really bad. And it got so bad,
880
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,320
my mom had to take her up to the offices and
stuff like that. She couldn’t take care of
881
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:09,200
her and stuff. ‘Cause, like, she could have
somebody in her ear telling her how to act,
882
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,520
but then also acting like, “Oh, I’m the
one trying to calm her down. I’m trying
883
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,620
to calm her.” It’s so many different things
in the foster care system. And it’s so bad.
884
01:11:16,620 --> 01:11:19,360
[Kimberly] I was just, like, hurting
for her. Because it’s like, you know,
885
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,960
you don’t even get to control your own
behavior, you know? She’s telling you,
886
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:27,640
“Oh, act this way so that they can bring you back
to me,” and stuff. And it’s like, you’re leading
887
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:33,040
this child astray for what? She’s already dealing
with probably a lot. She has medical issues and
888
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,000
stuff like that. She has to take her medicine
every day. She doesn’t understand the implications
889
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:41,400
that if she doesn’t take her medicine, something
bad can happen. And you’re, you know, just kind of
890
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:47,680
abusing her even more. And it’s like, it really
is a horrible system, with horrible people.
891
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,720
[Kimberly] And that’s why I think we need more
people who understand it, I guess, you know,
892
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:58,120
and just can extend themselves. Because even with,
like, the social workers and stuff, they only do
893
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:01,920
it for a paycheck. You could tell, because,
like, they don’t really care about the kids,
894
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:06,240
you know? They aren’t concerned with… They’re
like, “Oh, being a social worker is, like,
895
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:09,980
one of the highest-paying jobs.” I’m like, “So
we don’t care about the kids, though?” [laughs]
896
01:12:09,980 --> 01:12:17,040
[Courtney] Oof. Yeah. And I feel like the average
person just knows so little about this system.
897
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:23,800
They really do. And… so, when I was, like, a
kid — like, a young, young kid… I have always,
898
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:29,760
my entire life, been about experiences. I want
to have as many different, unique experiences
899
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:35,520
as possible, and that’s always been, like,
a core value of mine. So even as a kid,
900
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:41,400
I knew that I liked other kids, and for most
of my life, I was certain that I was going to
901
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:48,880
be a mother. And so as, like, a young child,
I was like, “Well, I want the experience of
902
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:53,680
having a biological child, and then I also
want the experience of adopting a child,
903
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,800
so I’ll just have two children so I can have
both experiences”. And that was obviously,
904
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,200
like, six-year-old Courtney brain,
[laughing] so I didn’t know anything
905
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:04,760
about the system at that time. I was just
like, “Yes, let me collect experiences.”
906
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:10,520
[Courtney] But then, when I was, like… I
think I was 12, I was pretty young the
907
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:17,840
first time a doctor told me that it would be
very difficult for me to have a biological
908
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:24,920
child because of my — they didn’t have the
words Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome at the time,
909
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:30,000
but they were telling me about this hypermobility,
how I’d have a very high-risk pregnancy,
910
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,760
and that that’s something I should always keep in
the back of my mind. So that, like, at the time,
911
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:39,560
scared me when I wanted a biological child.
And so I was like, “Well, I did always say
912
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,240
I wanted to adopt a child too.” So, I had in
the back of my head, like, “I’ll be just fine.
913
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,520
Even if I can’t have a kid, like, I will be
just fine, I’ll still be able to be a mom.”
914
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,640
[Courtney] And, like, when Royce and I first
met, we were still talking about, like, “Yeah,
915
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:57,640
we’ll probably, you know, have kids at some point.
We’re just not in a hurry.” And now it’s less
916
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:04,560
certain. We very well may never, and that would be
fine. But it started striking me where I was like,
917
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:08,400
“If I ever have a child, it’s not going to be
the biological way,” because I would not only
918
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:17,160
put me in danger, but my child, and also, I’m Ace
and I don’t want to do that. [laughs] And for a
919
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,680
while I was like, “Well, it would just be like a
household chore, if I had to.” But then I hear all
920
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:26,720
these stories of even allosexual people that are
like, “When we were trying to conceive, we were,
921
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:33,960
like, on a tight schedule. We had to, you know,
try to conceive a child at X, Y, and Z time and as
922
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:40,680
often as possible during —” And I was like, “Ugh,
that sounds terrible! I don’t want to do that!”
923
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:45,760
[Courtney] So, like, in the back of my head, I
was like, “You know what? Adoption is going to
924
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:51,640
be the only option for us if that is in the
cards.” And it occurred to me — like, I’ve
925
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:56,760
started meeting friends who have been adopted, who
have been in the foster care system. I know how
926
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:02,480
traumatized a lot of them are from that system.
I need to learn more about the system itself if
927
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:07,820
I’m ever even going to make an educated decision
about whether or not this would ever be for us.
928
01:15:07,820 --> 01:15:11,440
[Courtney] And then I’d start seeing
very flippant — especially like right
929
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:17,080
before Roe vs Wade got overturned, we’d still
have, you know, very religious, very, like,
930
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:23,280
anti-abortion people occasionally make a post
on Facebook that would just blanketly be like,
931
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:28,880
“Please, if anyone out there is considering
aborting your child, please don’t do it. I will
932
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:35,840
adopt your child, don’t you worry!” And, like,
you’ve never adopted a child before. You already,
933
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:40,480
like, have your own kid. And sure, maybe you have
the financial means to take on another kid. But
934
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:46,200
you’re just — you don’t really mean that. [laughs]
I think even if you think you mean it, you don’t.
935
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:52,260
Like, and those things really made me realize how
flippantly people tend to think about adoption.
936
01:15:52,260 --> 01:15:58,880
[Courtney] And then I started looking at, you know,
activists who have openly talked about adoption.
937
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:05,640
One that comes to mind is actually Lydia X.Z.
Brown, who — they are Ace and Asian, but they’re
938
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:11,320
a transracial adoptee, so they’ve talked about the
additional trauma on top of that. And, like, just
939
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:17,400
hearing those stories, it’s like, man, I… like, I
don’t know if we are ever going to foster or adopt
940
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:22,560
or anything like that, but I care very deeply
about learning more about this system and these
941
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:29,320
firsthand experiences because it’s — wow, the
way people talk about it. And sometimes there is,
942
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:34,520
like, a very white saviorism about it too. Like, I
think we’ve all heard the horror stories of, like,
943
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:41,360
a white Christian family that’s like, “I adopted
a child of color from a developing country,
944
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:46,560
and I saved them, and I brought them to
America.” It’s like, that’s colonialism.
945
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,200
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And see,
that’s the thing. I’m like,
946
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,920
when people have those posts and stuff like
that, I’m always looking at it, I’m like,
947
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:59,000
“You really think you did something. Like,
you really thought that was okay?” And to
948
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:03,160
other people who aren’t in the foster care
system, in the adoption spaces, they’re like,
949
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:07,480
“Oh my God, that’s so nice! Like, that’s so
right!” And I’m like, “They’re not, really.”
950
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:11,680
[Kimberly] Because you’re trying to, first of
all, take autonomy from somebody. And, like,
951
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,960
if they choose to do what they choose to do, then
that’s fine, right? And, like you were saying
952
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:21,400
about, like, giving birth and pregnancy and stuff,
I have a fear of pregnancy. I am literally — like,
953
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,240
my family has — like, I don’t think they intended
to, but I literally have a fear of pregnancy. I
954
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:30,960
would never. Like, I couldn’t do it. You know?
I have a fear of, like, surgery, too, and stuff,
955
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:36,760
and so it’s like, it wouldn’t be an option for
me, you know? Like, my partner wants kids, like,
956
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,533
biologically, and I’m just like, “Can’t we
just adopt?” Like you know what I’m saying?
957
01:17:40,533 --> 01:17:40,550
[Courtney laughs]
958
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:46,120
[Kimberly] Like, I’m gonna obviously be
attached to the adopted kids, where,
959
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:50,720
you know, it’s going to be cool on both ends, but
they really want, like, a biological kid. I think
960
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:55,120
a lot of people do. And it’s like… I don’t
know. Like, even the language around, like,
961
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:59,000
how people talk about having a biological
kid and, like, “Oh, I can’t adopt, I need
962
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,960
a biological kid. Like, I’m gonna be connected
to the kid.” I’m like, “It’s a kid! You should
963
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:08,440
just be connected to them regardless,” you know?
It’s just such a weird, like, space, you know?
964
01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:13,720
[Kimberly] And then going into the topic of,
like, the transracial families and stuff. I
965
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,640
obviously can’t relate. And that’s what I love
about, like, the adoption system and foster care,
966
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:22,240
because it’s so vast, and there’s so
many different types of people here
967
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:27,640
and different experiences, and, like, some
good, some great, some horrible. You know?
968
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:34,080
I have two people that I know of that are in
the transracial adoption spectrum. My friend
969
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:39,640
Ben — and it’s so crazy how things kind of line
up. His parents, one of his parents, his mom,
970
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:44,560
is, like, Russian, I believe, and then his dad is
of, like, Israeli roots and stuff. So right now,
971
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:50,296
he is dealing with, like, his cousins being
in Israel and the war and stuff like that.
972
01:18:50,296 --> 01:18:50,310
[Courtney] Oof.
973
01:18:50,310 --> 01:18:54,480
[Kimberly] And I didn’t even think about that. I’m
like, you know, he’s just a Black kid that got
974
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:58,440
adopted, in my mind, like, by white people, and
I’m just like, it’s just that simple. It’s like,
975
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:02,960
no. It’s like, his family is rooted with
even the war that’s happening now and,
976
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:06,560
like, the issues that are happening now. And
just because he’s Black doesn’t mean that it
977
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,280
doesn’t affect him any less, you know?
Because that’s his family. So I’m like,
978
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,440
that’s really good, because he’s teaching
me about this stuff, and I didn’t know.
979
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:16,960
[Kimberly] Because, like, I never, you know
— every other friend that I have is like,
980
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,280
“It’s just complicated.”
And he’s like, “No,” like,
981
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:24,040
“I got the low down. I know about it.” So I’m,
like, very grateful for him and his experience,
982
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:27,560
and I’m definitely always open to
listening to him about his background
983
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,440
and his family’s background and stuff, which
is definitely interesting to listen about.
984
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:37,120
[Kimberly] And then my other friend… This is more
on the foster parent side, I guess, because the
985
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:42,200
child is a baby. She’s fostering a baby. She’s
Asian. And so I’m like, “That’s actually pretty
986
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:46,600
cool, because I’ve never seen a Black family
adopt an Asian baby!” I’ve never — as far as
987
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:52,040
I know. You know? It’s usually always, like, white
person adopts Black child out of white saviorism,
988
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:55,800
like you said. So I was like, “That’s really
nice,” you know. I’m like, you know, her mom is
989
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,600
dealing with certain, like, issues and stuff, and
they really want to adopt her. But, you know, I’m,
990
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:04,760
like, hoping they do, because she’s a perfect
addition to the family. Everybody loves her,
991
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:10,120
and they treat her, you know, just like one of
theirs. They deal with a lot of foster care kids
992
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:14,680
and stuff like that, and they deal with kids with
disabilities as well. So I’m like, “You know,
993
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,960
I think it’s a little — it’s a good, you know,
family for her to grow up in,” and stuff.
994
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:23,160
[Kimberly] But I do wonder, like, how
it’s going to affect her, you know? Like,
995
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:27,480
being Asian in a Black family definitely would
be like, “Where’s my roots?” you know? And,
996
01:20:27,480 --> 01:20:32,560
like, even the cultural impact of the Black
culture and stuff, she’s going to, you know,
997
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:38,200
indulge in culture, the food and stuff, and she’s
probably going to feel like, “I kind of lost out
998
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:43,440
on knowing about my Asian roots,” and stuff.
And I just really do hope that they are open
999
01:20:43,440 --> 01:20:48,060
and receptive to, like, let her, you know, explore
that if she does want to explore that, you know?
1000
01:20:48,060 --> 01:20:51,200
[Kimberly] Like, the transracial…
Like, I can’t speak on it — like,
1001
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:55,080
if it’s good or if it’s bad. But
I do think that it has its perks,
1002
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,600
but then also probably does have its downfalls,
and that’s something that we definitely need to
1003
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:04,800
talk about, especially because now, people
think transracial is, like, when you’re one
1004
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:10,447
race and you want to… It’s like what we talked
about earlier, about how… the colloquialism.
1005
01:21:10,447 --> 01:21:10,470
[Courtney] Mhm. [laughs]
1006
01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:12,400
[Kimberly] They think transracial is, like, “Oh,
1007
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:16,983
I’m Black, but now I’m Asian.” It’s
like, no! It was a word for adoption.
1008
01:21:16,983 --> 01:21:17,880
[Courtney] Rachel Dolezal. [laughs]
1009
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:22,080
[Kimberly] Right! Exactly. And, like,
it was a word for adopted people,
1010
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,240
and then y’all just kind of threw us out
the window and was like, “No, this is about
1011
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,960
trans people and about race.” And I’m like,
“No, it was about Black kids getting adopted
1012
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,640
by white families, Asian kids getting adopted
by Hispanic families,” like, stuff like that,
1013
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:39,000
which we don’t have any topics about. Nobody
talks about it, no media coverage, you know? And
1014
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:43,860
I’m just like, it definitely is something that we
definitely all need to like, tune into, you know?
1015
01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:48,400
[Courtney] Yeah! And there’s going to be a spectrum
of how positive or negative that experience can be
1016
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:53,640
on a case-to-case basis. But if you, like,
zoom out and just look at it as a whole,
1017
01:21:53,640 --> 01:22:00,000
obviously, there is the very, like,
white colonial mindset that I think
1018
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:05,760
a lot of people have and that they apply to
their idea of what adoption looks like and
1019
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:12,300
what it is and how it’s… They probably see it in
rose-colored glasses far more than is warranted.
1020
01:22:12,300 --> 01:22:19,360
[Courtney] But you also have the fact of, like,
all of these are people, individually, and people
1021
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:26,560
are always going to have their own biases. And,
like, you could have a foster parent who just is
1022
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:34,680
racist [laughs]. And it’s not 100% of the time
going to be negative if there is a transracial
1023
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:40,000
adoptee situation. Sometimes, depending on a
case-to-case basis, it might be unavoidable.
1024
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:46,040
But if the parents adopting in that situation
aren’t at least educated on the basics of racism,
1025
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:52,600
if they aren’t equipped to talk to the kid
about race, if they aren’t willing to let
1026
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:58,600
that kid explore their roots and their heritage
that they may feel has been taken away from them,
1027
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:03,820
if they aren’t willing to learn about those
things and work through it, that can be a problem.
1028
01:23:03,820 --> 01:23:10,720
[Courtney] And in situations of fostering, there
can also be — maybe the biological parents are
1029
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:15,960
still in the picture and the goal is to get them
back to their parents. They’re also going to be
1030
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:21,560
people who are like, “Well, what’s the reason?
Is it addiction? Is it mental health?” And then
1031
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:26,880
are there people who are just going to, like, look
down on poor people? Like, if it’s a situation of
1032
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:31,240
poverty, are they going to be like, “Well, I know
best for this child than their biological parent”?
1033
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:35,960
Are they going to be blaming the parent for not
being a good enough parent? Are they going to be
1034
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:41,040
putting a bug in the ear of that child that, like,
“I know better than your actual parents”? Like,
1035
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:45,160
or even ableism, if it’s a mental health issue
that hopefully you can work towards with the
1036
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:50,120
parent and then they’ll get to a stable enough
place to be able to parent, it’s like, there are
1037
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:55,510
so many ableist people just in general, and some
of them are bound to be foster parents! [laughs]
1038
01:23:55,510 --> 01:24:00,920
[Courtney] So I think when you were talking about,
like, classes earlier, it’s like, I haven’t
1039
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:08,080
been in one of these classes, but I assume they
don’t take a very intersectional lens on a broad
1040
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:14,320
spectrum of issues like that that could arise,
depending on what child gets put in your care.
1041
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:18,080
[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s — I’m not
sure if they update it or anything,
1042
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:22,760
but it’s just like… I don’t know. The
way that people can’t even do the basics,
1043
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:27,320
like we said earlier, about not making your kid
feel like crap about wanting to reach out about
1044
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:31,840
their parents. I’m like, “These classes must be
horrible,” you know? Maybe I should update that,
1045
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:39,600
you know? It is very concerning. Because, like
we said, it’s just so many different cases. And
1046
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:44,120
people just kind of are like, “Oh, everything’s
going to be okay. Everything’s going to be
1047
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:49,000
perfect for this kid. They’re going to be very
stable. They’re not going to have any problems,
1048
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,160
because they’re being adopted, and they’re not
in their drug addict mother’s care,” and stuff.
1049
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:55,760
[Kimberly] And that’s how I always
tell my family. I’m like, “Look,
1050
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,960
great things happen. I’m in a perfect place. I get
whatever I want. I can ask anything and you give
1051
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:06,520
it to me.” But the way I communicate with people,
the way I make friends, the way I have partners
1052
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:12,120
is affected through me being adopted, and that’s
something you cannot, like, just ignore. Because,
1053
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,320
you know, those things are going to plague
you for, like, the rest of your life,
1054
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:21,000
you know? And you don’t want to be a burden to
people more than you already feel like you are,
1055
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:28,940
especially being in the adoptive system, and these
things are not set up for us in mind, you know?
1056
01:25:28,940 --> 01:25:38,800
[Courtney] So, I do definitely want to make
sure that we talk about your webcomic. So this
1057
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:46,600
came on my radar because of a video that you
posted to YouTube not too terribly long ago:
1058
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:52,280
“The token Black Asexual; the Asexual departure,”
or something like that. Was that the title?
1059
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:53,500
[Kimberly] Yes, it was.
1060
01:25:53,500 --> 01:25:58,920
[Courtney] I found that video very fascinating.
And it’s you doing artwork, which, I love seeing
1061
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:03,400
other artists’ work, because your art form
is way different than any art form that I
1062
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:07,600
have ever practiced, so I always love seeing
the process. But it was just you talking and
1063
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:13,120
thinking and ruminating through thoughts about
the Ace community and where we’ve been and where
1064
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:18,640
you want to go. And I’d love to just hear in
your own words, and I’d love for you to explain
1065
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:25,400
to the audience, what your thoughts are in that
video and why… Well, just everything about your
1066
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:31,280
comic and this new project and what it means to
you, what the themes are. Let’s have all of it.
1067
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:35,960
[Kimberly] Definitely. So, basically I’ve been
working on this little comic called Trauma.
1068
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:40,440
It’s actually a small part of a bigger comic
that I was going to do, but I was like — I’m
1069
01:26:40,440 --> 01:26:44,640
very hard on myself. I’m like, “I need to go
to art school first.” I gotta go to art school,
1070
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,720
and then I can make the big comic. But for now, I
just want to do, like, a little three-panel comic,
1071
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:53,240
maybe four-panel, and then, just, like, you
know, kind of introduce the character Trauma.
1072
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:58,280
[Kimberly] So, Trauma is a character that I made.
Kind of got off easy by just naming her “Trauma.”
1073
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:03,520
[laughs] I was like, “What’s her name? She doesn’t
know. Cool. Trauma,” you know? But she’s, like,
1074
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:10,840
a very important character to me, because she kind
of offset the idea of basically where I want to go
1075
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:16,640
with a lot of my art, and that’s just including
characters that are basically everything that
1076
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,920
I’ve dealt with, you know? Like, okay, adoption.
Cool, we could talk about that because all the
1077
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:25,320
characters are adopted, or, like, a good majority
are adopted. We could talk about being queer, or,
1078
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:30,480
like, AroAce, because she’s both Aro
and Ace. And so I’m like, I wanted to,
1079
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:35,720
you know, talk about that, but like, I want it
to just be not always in the background. Like,
1080
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:40,160
there will be comics where she’s talking about
being Ace or adopted or, you know, mental health
1081
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:45,000
and stuff. But just, like, for now, I wanted
to be, like, a goofy little comic. Because,
1082
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:49,640
you know, just to get to know her, to know
her power set and all that stuff, and just
1083
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:54,960
little things about her before I kind of get into
the bigger comic with all the other characters.
1084
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,760
[Kimberly] So, like, for her she was in the
foster care system. I think she got it like
1085
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:05,000
the worst. Because she basically has experienced
all, like, kind of the negative parts of the
1086
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:09,040
adoption system and stuff. Like, anything
bad that you can imagine happening in the
1087
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,920
foster care system should probably happened to
her. Like, it just… you know? But she’s, like,
1088
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:17,800
a kind of chipper child. Like, she’s kind of happy
for somebody who’s been going through a lot of
1089
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:22,640
trauma and stuff like that. And then she’s also
very powerful because of, like, the things that
1090
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,960
happen kind of translated into her power set. So
she can, like, manipulate people, control them,
1091
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:35,640
through mental things, and, like, she can control
their emotions. And it’s so many things in terms
1092
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:40,660
of, like, her powers being connected to her
being, you know, traumatized and stuff like that.
1093
01:28:40,660 --> 01:28:46,320
[Kimberly] And in the main comic, basically,
she has these two, like, technically friends,
1094
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:51,160
but they kind of come off as her parents, because
they’re kind of — I don’t know how to explain it.
1095
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:56,280
I’m not sure about the ages yet. But they kind of
are in a queerplatonic relationship where they’re,
1096
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:00,920
like, not together but they just — they kind of
appear as a couple, but they’re not a couple. And,
1097
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,440
like, they’re just very close, and so they
kind of come off as, like, a little family,
1098
01:29:04,440 --> 01:29:09,320
you know? Like, the two parents and then a
kid, but it’s just not a traditional family,
1099
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:15,400
you know? So that’s really where I am with
the Trauma comics, and just trying to get her
1100
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,680
started and jumpstarted in my mind and kind of
figuring out where I want to put her and stuff.
1101
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:25,680
[Kimberly] And then, in terms of the video
that I had made, that was definitely
1102
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:29,880
something I was thinking about. Because I
noticed that when I try to go into, like,
1103
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,760
the Twitter space and like just other spaces and
stuff, like, it was always hard for me to kind
1104
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:39,840
of introduce these characters. Because first of
all, I always felt like I had to make everything
1105
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:44,960
about Asexuality and stuff like that, and I
couldn’t really diverge into anything else,
1106
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:49,500
because people only know me for, like, being Ace
and Black. And it just kind of felt defeating.
1107
01:29:49,500 --> 01:29:54,920
[Kimberly] Because, you know, me going to school
is for, you know, learning about comics and,
1108
01:29:54,920 --> 01:30:00,720
you know, doing different characters that I like
and stories that I can follow. And I feel like
1109
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:06,160
during that time, it really made me question
a lot of things. Because I’m like, “Okay,
1110
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:09,880
that’s what I’m known for, right? I don’t want to
be just known for that. I want to be an artist,
1111
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:13,840
I want to be a writer, I want to be this.”
I think that people should be more than what
1112
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:18,200
people’s first impression of them is and stuff.
So I think that that’s something that we as a
1113
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:24,040
community need to kind of dive deep into. Like,
if Aces in comics decided to just, you know,
1114
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:28,360
do, like, a fashion thing, we should also
support that just as much as, like, you know,
1115
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:32,720
their comic work and stuff and whatnot. I feel
like everybody should be able to dabble in what
1116
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:37,200
they want to dabble in, and people just be
receptive. Like, if it’s not your cup of tea,
1117
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:42,440
that’s cool, but if you do like fashion
and you like Ace and Aro experiences,
1118
01:30:42,440 --> 01:30:45,740
then that’s perfect for you, you know?
Because it shouldn’t just be about one thing.
1119
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:51,280
[Kimberly] And that kind of segues into, like,
even in the comic book industry right now a lot
1120
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:58,080
of comic book artists are — they’re usually put
on certain types of books. So say, like you’re
1121
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,440
AroAce creator and stuff. They’re going to try
to put you towards AroAce characters and stuff,
1122
01:31:02,440 --> 01:31:06,120
so you can write that character and stuff.
And I had thought about it, and I was like — I
1123
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:12,680
actually like that, 100%. But also, on the
other hand, I feel like it’s debilitating,
1124
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:18,480
where it’s like, a lot of Black creators can
only write Black characters. And DC and Marvel,
1125
01:31:18,480 --> 01:31:23,800
they already don’t pay attention to their Black
characters. Like where’s Vixen, Bumblebee, Onyx,
1126
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:30,200
you know? Any of the male characters, like Mal
Duncan, Bumblebee’s partner. They never show
1127
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:35,880
up for them. And so I’m expected to write this
character that nobody really cares about, which,
1128
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,560
obviously, like, I care about them because,
you know, connection, and I’m very happy
1129
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:45,740
to see Black characters. But it’s sad because
they expect us to only do what we know, right?
1130
01:31:45,740 --> 01:31:49,920
[Kimberly] And I’m like, “I relate more to
Rose Wilson than any character because she’s
1131
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:53,400
my favorite character, but just because
she’s Asian and white doesn’t mean that
1132
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:57,560
I can’t write her, you know?” Like, she
literally has daddy issues. I’m like,
1133
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,573
“That’s literally my whole thing!”
I could just write her, you know?
1134
01:32:00,573 --> 01:32:00,590
[Courtney laughs]
1135
01:32:00,590 --> 01:32:05,320
[Kimberly] One of her siblings is dead! Like, and
then her other sibling is mute. And I’m like,
1136
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:12,640
“Disability, dead siblings, daddy issues, mommy
issues, like, she’s me!” [laughs] So it’s like,
1137
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:17,560
it’s so weird when they want to put you in this
box and this category, just because you know,
1138
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:21,680
“Oh, you’re this, and you’re this thing, and
those are the only two things you can ever be,
1139
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:26,760
and those are the only characters you can ever,
like, make,” and stuff. And it’s just very — like,
1140
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:31,520
it’s hurtful, I think, because
I don’t want to just be that.
1141
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:35,600
[Kimberly] And even.. I don’t know, even
with the comic and stuff like that,
1142
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:40,880
I think one of the characters that I made
— her name’s Ace, and she’s the leader,
1143
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:45,600
basically, and she’s the girl
failure. She’s just horrible.
1144
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:46,390
[Courtney and Kimberly laugh]
1145
01:32:46,390 --> 01:32:49,560
[Kimberly] She doesn’t do what she’s supposed
to. She’s not a good leader, you know, and stuff
1146
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:55,000
like that. And she’s — like, if you have that
parent that up and left and went to go get milk,
1147
01:32:55,000 --> 01:33:01,080
that’s what she is. Like, you know? And I love
her tremendously. And… I don’t know. Like,
1148
01:33:01,080 --> 01:33:07,880
I can’t relate to her, because she’s, like,
you know, Hispanic and white, that’s her race,
1149
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:14,840
but she is Ace and she’s also… well, I guess,
a girl failure [laughs], and I feel like I
1150
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:20,440
relate to those things and stuff. So it’s like,
just because you aren’t something and there are
1151
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:23,880
certain parts and stuff, that’s not the only
thing you have to focus on, you know? Like,
1152
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:30,600
I don’t have to make her Black just because, you
know, she is a part of my story that relates to me
1153
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:37,160
feeling inadequate. Maybe her inadequacy can go
hand in hand with, like, how Hispanic kids feel
1154
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:42,240
when they aren’t living up to, you know, their
family’s expectations, and stuff like that. And I
1155
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:48,160
feel like just making stories where you can branch
out and have different experiences and stuff,
1156
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:51,560
and just try to understand people through your
art and stuff, is, like, really important.
1157
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:57,360
[Kimberly] And yeah, like, one character I
have his name is Sun. He’s a gay character,
1158
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:02,800
and I based him off of my friend Jalen. And me
and him kind of came together and talked about,
1159
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:07,160
like, you know, the experiences of gay men and
stuff. And, like, one thing that I noticed all
1160
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:12,160
the time with gay men is that a lot of straight
women kind of flock to them in order to, like,
1161
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:17,840
you know, “Oh, I need you to tell me if my man
is gay on the low, so, like, I’ll know.” Like,
1162
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:22,680
you use him as an accessory. So, like, that’s
something I definitely wanted to, you know,
1163
01:34:22,680 --> 01:34:28,520
dabble in and try to bring to the world. Because
a lot of these topics and situations don’t get
1164
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:32,520
talked about — adoption, disability, you
know, all those things — and just try
1165
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:38,030
to put them in a comic and then, you know,
understand my own trauma, I guess. [laughs]
1166
01:34:38,030 --> 01:34:42,680
[Courtney] Yeah! I mean, those are all really
great points. And I think we even said at the
1167
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:51,480
beginning of this episode that we all have several
identities that make us up as a whole person. And…
1168
01:34:52,480 --> 01:34:59,240
I mean, part of the issue can be the nature of
the internet and the current state of algorithms.
1169
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:03,360
Because I even mentioned, like, “Oh, I found
myself on adoptee TikTok.” It’s like, well,
1170
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:07,520
if any of those people that talk about adoption
issues all of a sudden talk about something else,
1171
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:12,400
the algorithm isn’t going to show that video to
as many people, and that’s why you’re able to find
1172
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:19,320
yourself in a hole of the same topic over and over
again. But I don’t even know what Twitter’s up to
1173
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:24,600
these days. I feel like it’s so much worse than it
used to be, and it was never great. Like, the last
1174
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:30,040
year, I feel like people that I followed that
I used to see on my timeline every single day,
1175
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:35,920
I now find myself being like, “Oh, I haven’t seen
any posts from Asexual Goddess recently. Let me go
1176
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,960
to that account to see what’s up. Nope, there are
recent posts! Why weren’t they shown in my feed?”
1177
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:47,140
And, like, that’s just something that happens and
is happening more often, which is unfortunate.
1178
01:35:47,140 --> 01:35:51,040
[Courtney] But I found that a bit with my
own artwork, too. Because, like, yeah,
1179
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:55,560
we have our Ace Couple account and we talk
about Ace things. We have a podcast. We post
1180
01:35:55,560 --> 01:36:00,200
when we have new episodes and whatnot. And
we try to talk about a variety of topics,
1181
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:06,000
and at least our regular listeners
tend to… like, on Spotify and Apple,
1182
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:10,200
they tend to be pretty consistent numbers.
They tend to listen to most, if not all,
1183
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:16,400
of our episodes. But when we crosspost to YouTube,
just so — like, we do it for accessibility,
1184
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:21,920
so that people can have closed captions if they
like to read along as they’re listening. Those
1185
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:27,680
numbers are all over the place. Like, if it’s
a topic that isn’t popular, it’s going to tank
1186
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:32,360
and not get as many views. If it’s something that
is trending, if it’s — especially, like, a media
1187
01:36:32,360 --> 01:36:36,680
analysis for a popular show, those are going to
get a lot more views on YouTube. And we don’t
1188
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:42,640
get numbers fluctuating as much on the podcast
platform. So I know there’s an algorithm about it.
1189
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:49,400
[Courtney] But I don’t think it can all be blamed
exclusively on the algorithm, because I do think,
1190
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:55,320
within our own Ace community, that we are taking
baby steps and we’re getting better about talking
1191
01:36:55,320 --> 01:37:02,720
about some intersectional issues. Like, we are
talking about, like, “Support Black Aces.” We are
1192
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:09,960
talking about “Support disabled Aces.” But it’s
kind of like, “Intersection Ace,” and it has to be
1193
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:14,920
two. Like, “I follow this person because they’re a
Black Ace. I follow this person because they’re a
1194
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:23,240
disabled Ace.” And, to a certain extent, I feel
like if people try to expand their horizons and
1195
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:28,600
talk about other things and share other interests
and passions, it flies way under the radar.
1196
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:34,000
[Courtney] Because… I’m curious to hear what your
theories are, because you express some of this
1197
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:40,400
in “The Token Black Asexual.” But there certainly
is tokenism involved there. But I also just think
1198
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:48,040
that we’re not a real community as much as we try
to pretend like we are. I feel like we’ll say,
1199
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:52,640
“The Ace community,” and a lot of us, at
least on our own respective platforms — like,
1200
01:37:52,640 --> 01:37:57,480
there is an Ace Twitter. If you are on
Ace Twitter, you probably know, you know,
1201
01:37:57,480 --> 01:38:02,240
the same couple dozen names that come up
time and time again. So you probably know
1202
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:06,600
those people. And because you all know those
people, and other people all know those people,
1203
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:10,500
it feels like a pseudo-community,
so we can say “The Ace community.”
1204
01:38:10,500 --> 01:38:16,080
[Courtney] But there’s not nearly as much of
actual, like, reaching out and having personal
1205
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:22,200
conversations and making personal connections and
developing a real, tangible community as much as
1206
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:27,840
we’d like to. And I was thinking about this when
you were saying that, since you can relate to the
1207
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:33,280
trauma of adoption, you also want to be someone
that can support others who are used to that,
1208
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:37,400
and you want them to be able to talk to you
about that. We don’t get that much in the Ace
1209
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:43,000
community. A lot of us just sort of post out
into the void, and if people resonate with it,
1210
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,480
they’ll like it and they’ll share it, and then
we just go around in circles all day, forever
1211
01:38:47,480 --> 01:38:52,860
doing that without, like, tangibly supporting one
another, like a real community is supposed to.
1212
01:38:52,860 --> 01:38:58,080
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And that’s where, like,
sometimes I just don’t even get on my, like,
1213
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:02,560
Ace Twitter, because I’m like, “I don’t want
to just be a person that’s constantly just
1214
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:06,200
tweeting stuff and trying to get likes.”
I don’t really care about that kind of
1215
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:09,600
stuff. I’m really like — you know, if it’s
an issue and it’s plaguing, like, you know,
1216
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:14,480
Yasmin or Marshall or just anybody in the
community that needs a support, then I’m ready
1217
01:39:14,480 --> 01:39:19,920
to try to use my platform to get that information
out. Like, rarely is it about myself. Like,
1218
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:24,480
I don’t really care about the numbers. I’m usually
in my own world trying to do my art and stuff like
1219
01:39:24,480 --> 01:39:29,120
that. So, like, being famous on Twitter is not
my goal. Being famous on YouTube is not too much
1220
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:34,120
of my goal. It’s just that — you know, it was
something that I noticed. And like, honestly,
1221
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:39,720
if I could get Marshall or Yasmin or — Yasmin is
kind of already in that, you know, everybody kind
1222
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:45,240
of sees her sphere, or whatever — or, you know,
anybody else that wants to be, like, out there and
1223
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:49,620
activists and stuff like that, if I can get them
there, I would try to boost them as much as I can.
1224
01:39:49,620 --> 01:39:56,120
[Kimberly] But it’s just like, you know… I’m like,
I wanted to do something for the Ace community,
1225
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:59,920
because I love this community and, like you said,
it’s kind of a pseudo-community because they kind
1226
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:04,200
of support where they want to. But, like, I
want to make Ace characters, regardless of,
1227
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:08,040
if, you know, I stay on Twitter or YouTube
or whatever, I’m always going to make Ace
1228
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:11,840
characters. Like, half of the characters in
the little comic I was making are Ace. Like,
1229
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:16,800
one of them is literally named Ace. So,
like, Asexuality is a big part of my life,
1230
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,720
and I think that we definitely need more
characters, we need more comics, we need
1231
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:27,080
more literally everything that can help us get on
the map so that people stop treating us like we’re
1232
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:32,680
infants and treating us like, “Oh my God! You
don’t have sex? I would literally die!” you know?
1233
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:33,040
[Courtney laughs]
1234
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:38,160
[Kimberly] It’s really, like, the exposure
and making sure that we… not hit mainstream,
1235
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:42,680
but just so that people can know, so that they
can stop being ignorant towards Ace people. Like,
1236
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:45,720
that’s really my goal. And so, I just feel like,
1237
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:49,560
if that’s the route that I want
to go down and stuff, I feel like…
1238
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,680
[Kimberly] And I don’t know. It always
felt selfish, because it’s like, you know,
1239
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:56,000
people might not resonate with your art,
and stuff like that. And, like you said,
1240
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,880
with the algorithm: definitely have
seen that. because one of my favorite
1241
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:04,280
TikTokers — I have to look up her name for
her stuff to come up. So I’m like, “Yeah,
1242
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:08,120
you’re right! You’re absolutely right.” Like,
the algorithm is just kind of wack, you know?
1243
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,560
So I’m like, “Maybe that’s it,” you know? But
then I’m like, “Maybe it’s because I’m making
1244
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:16,760
Black — majority Black characters and stuff,
and maybe people just can’t relate to that.”
1245
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:21,280
[Kimberly] And, like you had said earlier about
how, you know, “Oh, this person is Ace and
1246
01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:26,480
disabled and Black and disabled,” and we kind of
just go off into those intersections of like, “Oh,
1247
01:41:26,480 --> 01:41:31,320
this person is Black and disabled, Black and Ace,
let me follow them because I’m Black and I’m Ace.
1248
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:36,320
Or, you know, I’m disabled and I’m Ace.” And, you
know, that’s cool to curate your feed to however
1249
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:40,960
you want it to be. Heck, half the time, I’m
talking about disability more than I talk about
1250
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:46,080
being Ace, at this point, or, like, adoption.
So you really will get a Russian roulette. And
1251
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:50,480
I barely post, so I’m not going to be, like,
your whole feed all the time, you know? That’s
1252
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:55,680
always the part that got me, you know? I try to
definitely be more diverse and stuff, because,
1253
01:41:55,680 --> 01:42:00,000
like, I’m realizing there are so many different
intersections to my identity. Disability is
1254
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:05,360
important to me. Mental health is important. Being
adopted is important. You know, art is definitely
1255
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:09,680
important, because that’s where I want to make my
money from, you know, one day, and stuff. So like,
1256
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:14,240
as you can see, my little room is literally
just art, you know? It’s very important to me.
1257
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:18,680
[Kimberly] So I feel like the rebranding was kind
of like, “Okay, I want people to take me more
1258
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:24,520
serious for my art.” And it kind of backfired.
[laughing] But, like, I don’t know. I’m still kind
1259
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:29,960
of in the middle, because I’m definitely still
going to do my little webtoons, the webcomic,
1260
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:34,720
definitely that. Because I’m always going to be
down to draw Trauma and stuff like that. But now
1261
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:40,640
I’m trying to, like, in the middle ground of,
“Should I keep the YouTube channel the same,
1262
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:45,560
or should I change it back?” And I’m thinking
about changing it back, but only because, like,
1263
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:50,280
I do feel like — you know, Marshall always tells
me — Gentle Giant — he always tells me, like,
1264
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:56,600
my content was his first, like, you know, exposure
to a lot of Black Ace people, and stuff like that,
1265
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,840
so he could relate. And I’m like, “Okay, that’s
—” you know? And I was doing a lot of educational
1266
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:05,200
things about, like, teaching people different
orientations and stuff like that. So it was,
1267
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:09,480
like, very important and stuff. And I feel like —
I still have the videos. They’re just kind of on
1268
01:43:09,480 --> 01:43:14,200
private. And so I’m like, “I maybe just un-private
it and then try to make more videos for the Ace
1269
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:19,120
community and then try to put in my artwork
where it fits in,” and stuff like that. Like,
1270
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:22,160
I’m trying to figure out what I want
to do. I’m kind of in limbo right now.
1271
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:25,480
[Kimberly] But, you know, I’m trying to get
into school as well, so I’m trying — like,
1272
01:43:25,480 --> 01:43:30,680
I’m not too worried about it, but if I can get
a better setup for my YouTube, then I feel like
1273
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:36,706
I’ll be more confident. But also, there’s not
a lot to talk about in the Ace community. Like…
1274
01:43:36,706 --> 01:43:37,550
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1275
01:43:37,550 --> 01:43:38,400
[Kimberly] You know? Like, right now,
1276
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:44,221
I think the biggest convo right now is
the Sex Education thing with Yasmin.
1277
01:43:44,221 --> 01:43:46,180
[Courtney] [laughs] Yeah,
that’s still pretty fresh.
1278
01:43:46,180 --> 01:43:51,400
[Kimberly] Yeah! And everybody’s just like,
“Wow!” People are having different opinions
1279
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:55,520
and stuff like that, and, you know, we’re
like, “Yeah, them darn TV productions,
1280
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:59,520
they’re going to see Ace people like we’re
the most boring people on earth.” I just,
1281
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:04,440
I don’t know, I don’t want my channel to always
just be like, “Oh, like, so-and-so is fighting on
1282
01:44:04,440 --> 01:44:08,880
Twitter,” you know, and stuff. Like, I just want
it to be something of substance. And, you know,
1283
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,240
I could definitely make more videos about,
like, different orientations and stuff like
1284
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:19,320
that and trying to inform people. But, you know,
trying to do both is… Especially since now I’m,
1285
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:23,640
like, trying to go to art school, I probably
should focus more on the art school aspect
1286
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:28,200
in terms of my art and try not to make it,
like, a YouTube career thing, too. Because
1287
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:32,760
then it kind of clashes. So I’m like, “I don’t
know. I don’t know.” I really do want to bring
1288
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:37,240
back my Ace channel, because I know it means
a lot to a lot of people. So, I don’t know.
1289
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:40,320
[Courtney] Speaking of Marshall, I
mean, this is a bit of a side tangent,
1290
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:44,200
but have you listened to his recent episode?
He was interviewed on Coming Out Pod.
1291
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:47,480
[Kimberly] I haven’t, but I’ve
definitely seen — he posted about it.
1292
01:44:47,480 --> 01:44:49,080
[Courtney] He shouted you out!
1293
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:50,560
[Kimberly] Oh my gosh!
1294
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:51,980
[Courtney] Yeah, he did!
1295
01:44:51,980 --> 01:44:56,560
[Kimberly] Oh my gosh. I love Marshall
because he’s always there for me.
1296
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,500
[Courtney] He’s great. He is,
like, such a good friend.
1297
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:03,640
[Kimberly] He really is. Like, we talk
almost every other night or whatever,
1298
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:07,360
because we call each other, and so we always
talking about something. And, like, you know,
1299
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:13,640
he really has been my biggest advocate. Because
I’m telling you, like, I am not a person that
1300
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:19,040
can sell my own product. I don’t really — like
I said earlier, I just don’t. I care about my
1301
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:23,480
YouTube channel, but I’m not going to be like, “I
need to get, like, one million followers.” Like,
1302
01:45:23,480 --> 01:45:29,040
I’m like, “Whoever it reaches out to, whoever
it helps or whatever, that’s great.” But he’s
1303
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:32,800
definitely a person that’s always trying to push
me to the forefront and make sure that people
1304
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:37,320
don’t forget me and stuff. And sometimes I do feel
forgotten in the Ace community, when people make
1305
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:41,920
posts and stuff, and I never get tagged. I’m like,
“Dang, guess I wasn’t that important,” you know?
1306
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:46,240
[Kimberly] But it’s like, I just feel like
it definitely is good to have more different
1307
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:51,280
diversity and, like, a lot of the posts that
kind of, you know, talk about different Aces
1308
01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:55,160
and stuff or whatever. So, like, I think that’s
why it hurts a little. Because it’s like,
1309
01:45:55,160 --> 01:46:00,560
I want to talk about different stuff and,
you know, I want to be able to… You know,
1310
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:05,120
it’s not even about growing the audience,
even. It’s just about, if you can resonate
1311
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:08,840
with what I make and stuff, then that’s
perfect, but if not, that’s cool too. Like,
1312
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:13,200
you know? Really, it’s just about that. And so
Marshall has been a big component in helping
1313
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:19,270
me in any way that he can. So shout out to
Marshall. I love him and his cakes. [laughs]
1314
01:46:19,270 --> 01:46:25,800
[Courtney] Shout out to Marshall. I don’t know if
I will have hung out with him by the time this
1315
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:30,360
episode goes live or not, but, like, we have been
trying to set up another time to hang out for,
1316
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:36,880
like, so long. But I am the worst at, like,
emails. My inboxes — I have too many inboxes,
1317
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:40,880
first of all, and too many people trying to
contact me on all of them. And also trying
1318
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:46,080
to plan Ace Week things. I’m like, “Aaah.” Every
single day, I’m like, “I still need to reach out
1319
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:51,800
to Marshall and also these 80 other people.”
[laughs] So, Marshall, I’m sorry it’s taken
1320
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:57,740
so long. Love you, shout out to you, talk to
you real soon, after Ace Week has calmed down.
1321
01:46:57,740 --> 01:47:02,000
[Courtney] But here’s — like, along
those same lines, and I don’t know
1322
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:06,520
if this will help give you any clarity
going forward, but I can at least tell
1323
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:13,320
you a little bit of my own experience as an
artist who is also Asexual. Because, I mean,
1324
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:16,960
for several years I would try to talk
about, like, intersectional Ace issues,
1325
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:21,360
and the community was just not having it, so
I couldn’t get, like, a foothold in it for a
1326
01:47:21,360 --> 01:47:24,420
really long time. So I was like, “Well, I
tried. I’ll try again in a couple months.”
1327
01:47:24,420 --> 01:47:30,640
[Courtney] But I had — I mean, I am a professional
artist, it is my business, it is how I make a
1328
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:36,920
living. And so I had my, like, business accounts
for my artwork. And for a long time, it was almost
1329
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:42,720
exclusively the combination of my artwork
and the history behind this art form. And so
1330
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:48,960
I started building my audience there. And when I
had like a decent following — like, I don’t know,
1331
01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:56,600
6,000 or so followers on Instagram and a couple
thousand on YouTube — then there was an Ace Week
1332
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:02,840
where I was like, “You know what? I’m going to
make an Ace Week video on my hairwork channel,
1333
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:06,920
just because this is important to me, and
I want other people to learn about it.” And
1334
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:12,440
what I found from doing that was my regular
viewers who came originally for my artwork
1335
01:48:12,440 --> 01:48:16,880
and the history started to say, like, “Well,
yeah, I want to learn more about the artist now,
1336
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:21,360
and I want to learn more about who you are as
the artist,” and that was sort of the next step
1337
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:26,480
there. So I still retained those viewers,
when I started posting about Ace things.
1338
01:48:26,480 --> 01:48:30,960
But then I also started attracting Ace people
who had never given me the time of day before,
1339
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:36,380
because they were like, “Oh, here’s Ace
representation in a place I didn’t expect.”
1340
01:48:36,380 --> 01:48:40,920
[Courtney] And the novelty of that
is something that’s very weird to
1341
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:46,760
navigate in the community. Because now that
we have our Ace Couple podcast and Twitter,
1342
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:51,440
there were a couple times I tried sharing my
artwork on the Ace Couple account ,and it got
1343
01:48:51,440 --> 01:48:57,560
very little attention. So I was like, “Alright,
if you establish yourself as an Ace account,
1344
01:48:57,560 --> 01:49:03,200
people only care about the Ace things. But if
you establish yourself as an art account and then
1345
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:09,080
occasionally talk about Asexuality, people will
care about the art and then also the Asexuality.”
1346
01:49:09,080 --> 01:49:13,880
And so that was super weird. And it sounds
like maybe that’s something that’s still true,
1347
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:17,640
even though it’s been a couple years since I
discovered that, based on your own experience.
1348
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:22,680
[Courtney] And I was actually having this
conversation with some of my fellow organizers,
1349
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:28,440
because we have a panel that we’re doing
for Disabled Ace Day, and we were trying to,
1350
01:49:28,440 --> 01:49:33,440
a couple months ago, say, “What are all the
events we want to do? What are the resources
1351
01:49:33,440 --> 01:49:39,000
we want to put out? How do we do this year?”
And we were thinking, “Well, if we do a panel,
1352
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:42,680
where are we going to do the panel?” And
a lot of us have connections with a lot
1353
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:47,040
of the Ace orgs. So it’s like, “I’m sure if
we ask really nicely, the AVEN livestreams
1354
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:50,580
channel will let us do it there. I’m sure
we’ve got connections that we can ask.”
1355
01:49:50,580 --> 01:49:55,200
[Courtney] But we had to kind of take a step back
and be like, “Well, not a lot of people actually
1356
01:49:55,200 --> 01:50:00,760
pay attention to the AVEN YouTube channel,”
because they just don’t get a lot of viewership,
1357
01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:06,280
and they definitely are not going to get people
from outside the Ace community. If we post it
1358
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:12,520
there, it’s only going to be, like, very diehard
Ace people looking for Ace content. Whereas,
1359
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:17,400
I said, “You know, is this just me? Is this
just my own personal feeling? How do you guys
1360
01:50:17,400 --> 01:50:23,640
feel? I feel like if we were able to get a
more broadly queer organization that is not
1361
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:31,840
Ace-specific at all, if we had a GLAAD or a
Trevor Project or any of these other ones,
1362
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:39,720
if they let us do a panel on their YouTube channel
about, like, Aces and disability, is it just me
1363
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:44,960
or is the Ace community going to be more excited
about that than if we kept it in-house? Because
1364
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:49,440
everyone’s going to be like, ‘Look, this big queer
org noticed us! They’re talking about Ace things!’
1365
01:50:49,440 --> 01:50:54,640
And that will actually get a lot more buzz, not
only within our community but out of it.” So,
1366
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:59,360
everyone was like, “Yeah, actually, that’s
very true. That’s exactly what would happen.”
1367
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:04,360
[Courtney] So it’s one of those weird things
where, even within the Ace community, it’s like,
1368
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:10,680
we get into our little tiny bubble where Aces
start to not care about other outside issues,
1369
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:17,680
but then also, we can’t really draw in new people,
either, because it’s just kind of a sinkhole of,
1370
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:21,420
you know, I don’t know. Does that make
sense? Does that sound about right?
1371
01:51:21,420 --> 01:51:26,840
[Kimberly] No, absolutely! That’s exactly how
it feels. Because I do feel like, you know,
1372
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:33,680
especially wanting to talk about other LGBT
issues and stuff. Like,’cause also, I’m on the
1373
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:37,760
bisexual spectrum and stuff. So I’m like, “Yeah,
I want to talk about that.” But then I’m like,
1374
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:44,080
“What if the Aces hate it?” Like, you know? And
it’s just like, you’ve got to go fishing for,
1375
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:48,400
like, okay, maybe the bi Aces will,
you know, relate and they’ll want to,
1376
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:54,000
you know, see it and stuff. Or you gotta
kind of rely on the other not A-related
1377
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:58,500
LGBT people to kind of tune in and stuff,
which also feels like you’re copping out.
1378
01:51:58,500 --> 01:52:02,480
[Kimberly] But it’s like — it’s so weird, because
it’s like, you just want to — like you said,
1379
01:52:02,480 --> 01:52:07,320
you just want to reach more people sometimes,
and you just — you can’t, because they’re like,
1380
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:10,840
you know, “If it’s not-Ace related, like, I
don’t care.” That goes hand in hand with the
1381
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:14,480
intersection, like you said, where it’s like,
“You could talk about being an Ace and, like,
1382
01:52:14,480 --> 01:52:19,080
adopted, but I don’t get that one part — like, the
adoption part — so it’s nothing to do with me,” or
1383
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:24,060
“I’m not actively looking for those resources or
information, so, like, yeah, I don’t really care.”
1384
01:52:24,060 --> 01:52:25,440
[Kimberly] And I get that, because, like,
1385
01:52:25,440 --> 01:52:29,600
I probably do that too, you know, until
I go into something and I’m like, “Okay,
1386
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:34,160
there’s importance to this,” and stuff like that.
And I try not to fault anybody, because I get it,
1387
01:52:34,160 --> 01:52:38,080
’cause, as a person whose attention span is,
like, three seconds long, like, I get it.
1388
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,190
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1389
01:52:40,190 --> 01:52:41,060
[Courtney] Right. Right.
1390
01:52:41,060 --> 01:52:41,740
[Kimberly] Yeah!
1391
01:52:41,740 --> 01:52:48,240
[Courtney] It’s so strange, because I feel
like part of the pitfall of not really feeling
1392
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:54,640
like a real community actually comes from a
diehard desire to have and find a community,
1393
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:59,720
and so it seems kind of counterintuitive. But
I think people find the, quote, “Ace community”
1394
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:06,000
because they want a community, so they’re looking
for that Ace-specific connection. Whereas people
1395
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:12,240
are still looking for that in other areas too;
that’s why we’re so hyperfixated on, like,
1396
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:17,600
Ace representation in the media, because we want
to see and find that connection in other places.
1397
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:25,480
[Courtney] So when I would, like, occasionally
talk about Ace issues on my business platform,
1398
01:53:25,480 --> 01:53:29,720
then I would occasionally get people who would be
like, “This is the first I’ve ever learned about
1399
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:34,040
Asexuality. Thanks for teaching me something
new.” So you’re reaching other people outside
1400
01:53:34,040 --> 01:53:38,560
of the community, for one, but then you’d get Ace
people coming in because they’re like, “Oh wait,
1401
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:43,440
an Ace! Maybe I can make a connection
over here.” So when it comes from,
1402
01:53:43,440 --> 01:53:47,440
like, an art or a personal platform
that isn’t Ace-specific, it’s like,
1403
01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:52,680
people already care about your work as an
artist, or they care about you as a person,
1404
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:59,600
as an artist, already. So they still care about
the Aceness when you start to talk about it.
1405
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:04,360
[Courtney] But with this desire to find
a community, because you haven’t had it,
1406
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:08,320
you haven’t had that connection, you’re like,
“Ace. Ace community. This is where I want to
1407
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:14,080
be.” But then you sort of get so focused on
that community that you start disregarding
1408
01:54:14,080 --> 01:54:21,000
the personal aspects of it. Because now you’re
looking at people as “another Ace that shares a
1409
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:28,120
space with me,” rather than seeing, like, the
whole person. And so it’s sort of a vicious
1410
01:54:28,120 --> 01:54:32,760
cycle where, in looking for community
and trying too hard to find community,
1411
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:37,060
you almost dig yourself into a hole where
it’s never going to be a real community.
1412
01:54:37,060 --> 01:54:41,560
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Like, you know, when I did
the little rebranding, I think it was kind of out
1413
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:46,080
of, like, a fear. Because I’m like, “I don’t
want to just be known as, like, a activist all
1414
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:50,280
the time.” Where it’s like, obviously, I’m cool
with it, you know? Like, if that’s what people
1415
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:55,480
know me as, The Asexual Goddess, that’s cool.
But, like, I don’t want my whole life to just be,
1416
01:54:55,480 --> 01:55:01,040
you know, Ace, Ace, Ace. Because, like, like
I said, I’m other things, too. So it’s like,
1417
01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:06,520
if that’s what people know me as, I’m like, “Okay,
maybe I just kind of branded myself wrong.” And,
1418
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:12,000
you know, maybe if I can try to — if I could
skew it towards something that I do like,
1419
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:17,120
that I would do for the rest of my life, like
art, then maybe people would try to be a little
1420
01:55:17,120 --> 01:55:22,660
more receptive and then just, like, accept it,
because maybe I branded it wrong the first time.
1421
01:55:22,660 --> 01:55:26,480
[Kimberly] And so, like, I was
kind of trying to find a way out,
1422
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:31,840
I think. And that’s where the new channel
comes in. But even now, I feel like I kind
1423
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:37,240
of robbed the Ace community of, like, important
things that they, you know, they had before,
1424
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:42,040
like certain videos and stuff. But also, I do
understand the importance of trying to, like,
1425
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:46,120
make sure that you do what you want to do,
and then, you know. But you’re right. Like,
1426
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:50,520
I should just create a separate channel or
just create a separate, like, Instagram and
1427
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:54,760
focus on my art, and then the people that are
receptive will come, and then they’ll be like,
1428
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:59,440
“Oh, this character’s Ace? That’s cool!” Like, you
know? And maybe it’ll spread that way and stuff.
1429
01:55:59,440 --> 01:56:03,840
[Kimberly] But, yeah, I do feel
like, in terms of my characters,
1430
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:08,400
I want them to be tied to the Ace community, but
I want them to be tied to other communities too,
1431
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:11,320
you know? Like, I want them to be
like, “Oh, this character’s adopted,
1432
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:15,040
and they just so happen to be Ace too. Like,
I can relate in that sense,” and stuff, you
1433
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:20,980
know? And so it is a conundrum to, like, deal with
all of these things, like, I want and stuff, but.
1434
01:56:20,980 --> 01:56:24,440
[Courtney] Well, it’s vicious, to
begin with, that social media kind
1435
01:56:24,440 --> 01:56:30,920
of forces yourself to brand yourself even
if you’re just a person. Like, I’m just me,
1436
01:56:30,920 --> 01:56:36,880
but the vicious nature of the algorithm and the
way that everyone above a certain follower count
1437
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:40,800
is kind of like a little pseudocelebrity
in their own little pockets, it’s like,
1438
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:45,680
it kind of forces you to brand yourself
even, if you’re just trying to be yourself.
1439
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:46,920
[Kimberly] Yeah.
1440
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:51,360
[Courtney] So that’s something that I’ve
really struggled with over the years a lot.
1441
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:55,800
[Kimberly] Definitely. And it’s like, I’m
trying to… Like, because of this and being
1442
01:56:55,800 --> 01:57:00,920
in these spaces, you do start to see a
lot of people’s channels do better with
1443
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:04,560
certain things than other ones and stuff. And
I started to feel bad, because I’m like, “Yeah,
1444
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:08,800
I know how that feels.” Like, you know, this video
got, like, a thousand views; this video got zero,
1445
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:12,420
you know? And it’s like, but I really like
the zero one. I thought people would res—
1446
01:57:12,420 --> 01:57:15,840
[Kimberly] And so now I’m looking at it
like, “Hey, if somebody makes content,
1447
01:57:15,840 --> 01:57:20,480
I’m’a just watch it, even if it’s just on in the
background. Just give them that, like, you know,
1448
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:24,560
respect for the work that they put in.” And
it’s like, you know, because half the time,
1449
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:28,640
like I said, attention span three seconds, so,
hey, like, something playing in the background
1450
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:32,560
isn’t going to affect me while I’m drawing,
you know? It’s just giving them watch time,
1451
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:36,400
maybe getting them paid or something. It’s
just being considerate and trying to… like,
1452
01:57:36,400 --> 01:57:41,280
you know. But I think that that’s something that
people have to go through to, like, understand it,
1453
01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:45,292
and then you kind of change your ways. It’s
kind of like, I call it the politician effect —
1454
01:57:45,292 --> 01:57:45,306
[Courtney] Mmm.
1455
01:57:45,306 --> 01:57:49,160
[Kimberly] — where the politician really cares
if it’s happening to them. They’re like, “Oh, my
1456
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:54,840
son is disabled now. I care.” And it’s like, you
should have cared before, you know? But I get it.
1457
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:55,410
[Courtney] Yes.
1458
01:57:55,410 --> 01:58:00,200
[Kimberly] You know? Like, you have to — you have
to see it and understand it to be like, “That is
1459
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:05,920
a issue.” Like, I’m going to try to do better for
other people so that hopefully it’ll come back.
1460
01:58:05,920 --> 01:58:12,360
[Courtney] Are there any other topics that you’re
itching to get to? We talked a lot about adoption,
1461
01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:15,960
the community, the comic, but I
want to make sure that you have
1462
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:20,320
the space if there’s anything we haven’t even
brought up yet that you want to talk about.
1463
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:23,600
[Kimberly] Oh, I don’t know. I
feel like as soon as I get off,
1464
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,820
I’m gonna be like, “Oh yeah, I should
have talked about that.” No, but…
1465
01:58:26,820 --> 01:58:29,830
[Courtney] We’ll take notes.
We’ll do a part two. [laughs]
1466
01:58:29,830 --> 01:58:36,080
[Kimberly] Yes, that would be amazing. I’m always
down for a podcast, trust me. I need it. I need
1467
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:41,080
something to do, sometimes, because I’m just in
the house. [laughs] But yeah, mostly, I’m just,
1468
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:46,760
you know, right now, I’m just trying to get my
stuff together for art school. That’s really my
1469
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:51,000
goal right now. So if you all see less and less
of me on Twitter or YouTube and stuff, like,
1470
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:56,000
that’s probably why. But hopefully, once I’m done
with the two years that I have, maybe I’ll make
1471
01:58:56,000 --> 01:59:00,560
the full comic, you know? Because that is really
my goal right now. But, you know, trying to focus
1472
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:06,380
on Trauma and the other characters and stuff —
yeah, that’s pretty much my whole thing right now.
1473
01:59:06,380 --> 01:59:11,560
[Courtney] Well, I look forward
to reading more. We’ve read the,
1474
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:15,960
I think, four panels. Is that how much
you have up now? Are there more now?
1475
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:19,480
[Kimberly] Yeah, I think it’s just,
like, four or five chapters and then,
1476
01:59:19,480 --> 01:59:21,120
like, three or four panels each. Yeah.
1477
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:27,880
[Courtney] Yeah. So, yeah, I’ve seen at least the
first four chapters, and it’s beautiful work. And,
1478
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:34,200
honestly, I didn’t know that you were already such
an accomplished artist! Like, it’s great. And,
1479
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:39,520
I mean, I’ve followed you for how long now,
but it was kind of ironic and sort of proves
1480
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:43,680
some of the points you were talking about in that
video. I hadn’t seen a post from you for so long,
1481
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:48,240
and, honestly, a lot of people, like, even some of
our, like, closest friends in the Ace community,
1482
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:53,840
I’m like, “Where are all their posts?
What’s going on?” And you use the words,
1483
01:59:53,840 --> 01:59:57,320
like, “Black and Asexual” in the
Twitter post, and you were like,
1484
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:02,920
“Oh, I am tired of having to only talk about being
Black and Asexual.” And, like, that was the first
1485
02:00:02,920 --> 02:00:08,600
post I had seen from you in a really long time.
And I was like, “Of course.” [laughs] Of course,
1486
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:13,780
in your critique of the very same
thing, that’s the first time I see this.
1487
02:00:13,780 --> 02:00:19,200
[Kimberly] Exactly! And I had to kind of like…
It always feels like logistics and stuff where
1488
02:00:19,200 --> 02:00:22,720
you have to be like, “Okay, I have to add these
words, I have to do this, I have to do that.”
1489
02:00:22,720 --> 02:00:24,020
[Courtney] It’s exhausting!
1490
02:00:24,020 --> 02:00:28,400
[Kimberly] Yeah! Like, I don’t want
to just use “Black Asexual” as, like,
1491
02:00:28,400 --> 02:00:33,440
the scapegoat all the time. Like, I don’t want to
have to be like, “Black Asexual” just for more…
1492
02:00:33,440 --> 02:00:37,600
you know? But I’m like, that’s just kind of like
the hole I put myself in. If I had understood the
1493
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:41,240
algorithm a little more, maybe I would have
tried to do something a little different,
1494
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:45,200
you know? Maybe I would have curated
it towards, like, comics. Or, you know,
1495
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:49,520
Ace Comics would have been cool. Or just
comics being there in general as the main
1496
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,960
thing that gets boosted, that would have been
cool. So now it’s just basically about, like,
1497
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:57,080
trying to rework that and just, you know,
trying to figure out how that even happens.
1498
02:00:57,080 --> 02:01:01,070
How do you rework something that’s kind of
set into the system now, you know? Like —
1499
02:01:01,070 --> 02:01:06,680
[Courtney] Yeah. I mean, it’s so frustrating.
But I am glad that, in that post that you made,
1500
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:10,040
that you did use those words and that it
came across my feed. Because then I was
1501
02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:14,360
able to click on the video, watch it, hear
your thoughts, see your process. And then I
1502
02:01:14,360 --> 02:01:19,840
was able to find the link to the first couple
chapters of the comic. And I was like, “Great,
1503
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:23,960
now I have a comic to follow!” But then I
went back, like, directly to your account,
1504
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:28,600
and I was scrolling down and down and down,
and you had mentioned the comic before that
1505
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:34,040
post that I saw, and it had so little views,
engagement, like, nothing. And I was like,
1506
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:39,040
“Well, I certainly didn’t see this either, and
now I’m mad! Because, Twitter, I wanted to see
1507
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:44,150
this.” Like, if the people I follow have a
new project, I want to know about it. Ugh.
1508
02:01:44,150 --> 02:01:48,480
[Kimberly] Exactly. [laughs] It’s
horrible all the way around. Like,
1509
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:53,000
I just… You know, it makes me kind of wish
that we were back in the days where, like,
1510
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:57,240
you just draw the comic and it somehow
gets in, like, the newspapers. And like,
1511
02:01:57,240 --> 02:02:01,253
literally, if I could just go out and hand
it by hand and stuff, that would be cool.
1512
02:02:01,253 --> 02:02:01,270
[Courtney laughs]
1513
02:02:01,270 --> 02:02:04,480
[Kimberly] You know? Because we think
social media is so much better. It’s
1514
02:02:04,480 --> 02:02:08,880
really not! Like, I’m like, if you can
block somebody’s content and make them
1515
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:13,497
feel isolated and they have to talk about
one thing, that’s not good! I don’t know.
1516
02:02:13,497 --> 02:02:13,510
[Courtney] No.
1517
02:02:13,510 --> 02:02:17,800
[Kimberly] It’s just like, it is
useful to get the memo out and stuff,
1518
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:21,600
but you gotta hope and pray, like,
hopefully it’ll reach somebody,
1519
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:26,505
you know, and they’ll spread it and
stuff, and it’s just… It’s defeating.
1520
02:02:26,505 --> 02:02:32,960
[Courtney] Mhm. Well, we are absolutely going to
be putting links in the show note to the comic,
1521
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:37,200
so that our listeners can go check it
out also. I implore all of you to do
1522
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:43,320
so. But where are all the other
places that people can find you?
1523
02:02:43,320 --> 02:02:47,560
[Kimberly] Yeah, just mostly, you know,
Twitter right now. I had an Instagram,
1524
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:52,380
but I think I might want to redo that
one. It was, like, Ace-centric, but I…
1525
02:02:52,380 --> 02:02:54,670
[Courtney] Oh, that’s a great name. [laughs]
1526
02:02:54,670 --> 02:02:58,320
[Kimberly] Oh, no no no no! It was — no, it
was a different name, but, like, Ace-centric.
1527
02:02:58,320 --> 02:03:02,640
[Courtney] Oh! Oh, two words.
It was Ace-centric. I see. I
1528
02:03:02,640 --> 02:03:07,590
thought you were making a pun — like,
eccentric, but Ace-centric. [laughs]
1529
02:03:07,590 --> 02:03:08,649
[Kimberly] That’s smart! I like that.
1530
02:03:08,649 --> 02:03:10,750
[Courtney] And then I’m like, “That’s
actually pretty good.” [laughs]
1531
02:03:10,750 --> 02:03:13,520
[Kimberly] Yeah! That would be
actually pretty cool! No, but yeah,
1532
02:03:14,040 --> 02:03:18,200
I don’t know where that one’s at right now,
but I’ll see about that one. And then, yeah,
1533
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:22,960
like, mostly I’m just on YouTube. YouTube and
Twitter, I would say those are the main ones.
1534
02:03:22,960 --> 02:03:27,560
Probably going to rebrand one more time on
YouTube, who knows, we’ll see. Because, hey,
1535
02:03:27,560 --> 02:03:30,480
if I get into art school, I probably
won’t have time to be on YouTube.
1536
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:36,200
[Kimberly] But if you definitely want to check
out any art, my main Instagram is… Because,
1537
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:41,160
like, I post art on there sometimes, but I feel
like it’s not the best, or, like, you can kind
1538
02:03:41,160 --> 02:03:47,000
of see sometimes where, you know, I grew and
where I didn’t. But my main Instagram is called
1539
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:53,760
@kimmyb12_. So if you guys want to check that
out. And then, right now, the YouTube — literally,
1540
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:58,633
if I get off today, it’ll probably be back to
The Asexual Goddess. I don’t know. I don’t…
1541
02:03:58,633 --> 02:03:58,650
[Courtney laughs]
1542
02:03:58,650 --> 02:04:02,280
[Kimberly] But I’d just say, look up The Asexual
Goddess on YouTube, if you want to see YouTube
1543
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:06,900
videos. I might just… you know. So, who knows.
I’m very, like, all over the place sometimes, so.
1544
02:04:06,900 --> 02:04:11,960
[Courtney] Well, we’ll have the link down
there for whatever name it currently is.
1545
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:16,960
[Kimberly] Yeah. Might switch, but hey.
And then I was going to ask, yeah, if you,
1546
02:04:16,960 --> 02:04:20,920
you know, could send me the link to your art
stuff, because I definitely would love that.
1547
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:25,300
I need more art stuff on my timeline,
you know? Just different types of art.
1548
02:04:25,300 --> 02:04:29,680
[Courtney] Oh, sure. I mean,
well, [laughs] I can do that,
1549
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:35,160
but I have not really been posting
much on social media, like, at all,
1550
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:41,320
anywhere. So I think I literally have not touched
my Instagram in, like, a year. [laughs] I have my
1551
02:04:41,320 --> 02:04:47,060
Patreon for people that, like, throw me a few
bucks every month, but, like… I don’t know.
1552
02:04:47,060 --> 02:04:52,520
[Courtney] I had a YouTube channel for a while. It
was actually a colleague of mine who was actually,
1553
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:59,480
like, a pretty famous, like, really big YouTuber,
like, encouraged me to start a YouTube channel.
1554
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:03,880
She was like, “If you start a YouTube channel,
it’s going to be really popular.” And so I started
1555
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:09,700
doing, like, little history and art videos, and
I got some viewers. I got some patrons from it.
1556
02:05:09,700 --> 02:05:18,240
[Courtney] But the thing is, I don’t like making
videos. I like having conversations with people,
1557
02:05:18,240 --> 02:05:26,280
and I like teaching people, and I like teaching
classes, and I would like lecturing. I have
1558
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:31,320
lectured at museums and colleges, and I like
being in front of an audience and performing
1559
02:05:31,320 --> 02:05:38,120
that way. But I don’t like sitting in my living
room in front of a camera that we had to fiddle
1560
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:46,200
with for an hour to get it looking just right
and then… like, I don’t like that. [laughs] So
1561
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:50,480
it was like — every time, I was like, “Oh,
I should post a YouTube video.” It was just
1562
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:55,240
becoming a hassle, and I didn’t want it to
be a hassle, because I love the history and
1563
02:05:55,240 --> 02:06:00,230
I love the art. I didn’t want to hate the
medium by which I was sharing it. [laughs]
1564
02:06:00,230 --> 02:06:00,960
[Courtney] Oh, no, definitely.
1565
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:06,040
[Royce] Yeah, video recording days were
often a hassle. And that’s part of why
1566
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:12,040
this show is in audio-only format, because
it’s a lot easier for two of us to sit at
1567
02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:16,960
a table around a microphone than it is for
Courtney alone to sit in front of a camera.
1568
02:06:16,960 --> 02:06:18,600
[Courtney] Yep. Yep, yep, yep.
1569
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:25,760
[Kimberly] I feel you. Like, I think I stopped
making most of the video content because
1570
02:06:25,760 --> 02:06:29,600
it is hard to just sit down sometimes
Like, whether it’s because, you know,
1571
02:06:29,600 --> 02:06:33,880
you might have different ideas and you don’t
know how to — like, because the video scripting,
1572
02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:37,800
even in itself, is hard. Because, like, I
could write something down, and then I’m like,
1573
02:06:37,800 --> 02:06:41,280
“I gotta stick to the script.” And then I’m
like, “I just thought of something on the fly,”
1574
02:06:41,280 --> 02:06:46,520
you know? And it’s definitely not always the main
go to. So I think it’s pretty cool that you guys,
1575
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:51,520
like, have the podcast. That definitely is
more, like, free-flowing, and it definitely,
1576
02:06:51,520 --> 02:06:56,140
you know, kind of is more authentic and
natural. So it definitely works. Yeah.
1577
02:06:56,140 --> 02:07:00,840
[Courtney] Well, it also just helps us get
out more content, because it’s very low
1578
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:09,800
effort. [Laughs] Like, it really is. It’s low
effort, low time, because I could write essays
1579
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:15,840
about every single topic we’ve talked about. And
I have written some. I mean, I am a writer to
1580
02:07:15,840 --> 02:07:24,040
some extent. But it takes longer to write, like,
a 1,000- or 2,000-word article than it does to sit
1581
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:29,240
down and record a two-hour-long podcast, which
we can do every single week — even though we’re
1582
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:33,200
trying to not do two hours every single week,
or at least Royce, every time we’re recording,
1583
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:37,280
is like, “This episode is getting long. You know
we’re going to make another one next week. We can
1584
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:43,550
pick this up later.” [laughs] And I’m like,
“But I have so many things to say!” [laughs]
1585
02:07:43,550 --> 02:07:47,400
[Kimberly] Yes, I get you. Yeah, I wanted
to thank you guys for letting me on,
1586
02:07:47,400 --> 02:07:52,440
you know? I haven’t done anything like this
in a while. Definitely does make me feel,
1587
02:07:52,440 --> 02:07:54,910
you know, very special. [laughs]
1588
02:07:54,910 --> 02:07:59,800
[Courtney] You are. You are special.
You’re probably among the first few, like,
1589
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:03,560
Twitter accounts that we actually followed
when we started our Twitter account. Like,
1590
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:06,230
you were definitely in the
first, like, batch. [laughs]
1591
02:08:06,230 --> 02:08:11,200
[Kimberly] Oh, thank you. I’m glad. Yeah, I just
hope that people, you know, like, learn something
1592
02:08:11,200 --> 02:08:15,560
today. Learn that I’m kind of versatile. Like, I
just — you know, different components and stuff,
1593
02:08:15,560 --> 02:08:21,600
and definitely different things that I care about.
Like, I’m not just a Black Ace, [laughs] you know?
1594
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:26,420
But, I mean, if that is something that I want to
talk about, it should be one of those things, so.
1595
02:08:26,420 --> 02:08:34,440
[Courtney] Yeah! And, I mean, care about the whole
person, and let’s try to start building something
1596
02:08:34,440 --> 02:08:41,840
that feels like a more tangible community and
see everyone’s different identities and how it
1597
02:08:41,840 --> 02:08:47,000
makes up the whole person. And, I mean, I’m
really excited. Hopefully more people will
1598
02:08:47,000 --> 02:08:50,400
be turned on to your artwork, because it is
lovely artwork. I mean, here you’re saying,
1599
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:55,081
“Oh, I want to go to art school,” and I’m
like, “But why? You’re already so good!”
1600
02:08:55,081 --> 02:08:55,110
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1601
02:08:55,110 --> 02:08:59,640
[Kimberly] It’s because I’m not disciplined, and
I’m like, look, I’ve been an artist for, like,
1602
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,680
dang near 24 years at this point. I feel
like I came out the womb — feels like it,
1603
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:08,160
you know? I’m always like, I’m not disciplined
to learn composition, perspective, and, like,
1604
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:11,880
light and shadow. And I’m like,
“Why did it take so long? Like,
1605
02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:16,320
what is wrong?” You know? So I’m like, I could
do it by myself, but I do feel like I need a
1606
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:20,640
little extra push. And just, you know, try to
learn how to network with people, and just…
1607
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:21,270
[Courtney] Sure.
1608
02:09:21,270 --> 02:09:25,040
[Kimberly] Yeah. Just, like, the discipline still
would have to come from me. Like, going to school
1609
02:09:25,040 --> 02:09:29,240
isn’t going to make me disciplined all of a
sudden, but, you know. Because, if you notice,
1610
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:35,896
I don’t draw hands and I don’t draw backgrounds
and I don’t draw dynamic, like, perspective.
1611
02:09:35,896 --> 02:09:35,910
[Courtney] Ahh.
1612
02:09:35,910 --> 02:09:38,920
[Kimberly] So I’m like, I’m trying to get there,
you know? I want to be able to do it all.
1613
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:39,560
[Courtney] Sure.
1614
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:40,010
[Kimberly] Yeah.
1615
02:09:40,010 --> 02:09:44,020
[Courtney] Yeah, I mean, there’s always
more to learn, so I certainly get that.
1616
02:09:44,020 --> 02:09:45,520
[Kimberly] Definitely, yeah.
1617
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:50,840
[Courtney] But, yeah, so, listeners,
please follow… are we still calling you
1618
02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:56,481
The Asexual Goddess? Are you the artist
formerly known as The Asexual Goddess?
1619
02:09:56,481 --> 02:09:56,510
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1620
02:09:56,510 --> 02:09:59,520
[Kimberly] I mean, yeah, you can still
call me The Asexual Goddess. I definitely,
1621
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,840
you know, definitely still want to
be in the community. I want to be,
1622
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:08,080
like, helping people, because I love this
community and it means so much to me. So,
1623
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:14,360
like, I want to make content for Ace people, you
know? So, yeah, The Asexual Goddess is fine, yeah.
1624
02:10:14,360 --> 02:10:19,160
[Courtney] All right, listeners, you heard it
here. Go follow The Asexual Goddess in all of the
1625
02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:25,840
various endeavors and projects. And, once again,
I do just want to give everyone out there very
1626
02:10:25,840 --> 02:10:31,960
happy Ace Week. For our allo listeners out there
— I know there are a few of you, I see you — make
1627
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:41,840
sure to send your local Aces cake and/or garlic
bread, or dragons, or black rings, or axolotls.
1628
02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:48,680
Maybe just a care package with all of those things
stuffed in it. Just go forth. Prove your allyship
1629
02:10:48,680 --> 02:11:00,400
through presents. [laughs] And we will all talk
to you same time, same place next week. Goodbye.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,040
[Courtney] Hello, everyone, and welcome
back to The Ace Couple podcast. My name
2
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:10,680
is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce.
And if you are listening to this podcast on
3
00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,400
the week that it is released, I want to
wish each and every one of you a very,
4
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,960
very happy Ace Week. Every year, the
last full week in October is Ace Week.
5
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:27,280
It is our longest-running Asexual-exclusive
Pride event out there. And if you’re one of
6
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:32,160
the early birds and you’re listening to this
the very day it is released, I want to wish
7
00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:39,420
you an additionally special Disabled Ace Day.
This happens on Wednesdays during Ace Week.
8
00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:44,560
[Courtney] And I am so thrilled that
today, for our special Ace Week episode,
9
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,040
we have a phenomenal guest. This is someone who
has been on our master list of people we want
10
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:56,600
to talk to eventually for a very long time, so we
are so happy that we finally have the opportunity.
11
00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,580
So I want to get right to it. So please, go
ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners.
12
00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:07,960
[Kimberly] Hello, everybody. Many of you
probably know me as The Asexual Goddess.
13
00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:14,880
I have a YouTube channel and I also have a
Twitter, so I’m usually on those, you know,
14
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,720
talking about the Asexual experience as a
Black person and vastly different topics,
15
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,080
such as disabilities, mental health,
and, every now and then, adoption.
16
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:29,920
[Courtney] And we are so, so happy to have you
on today for Disabled Ace Day, but also just to
17
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,960
tap into your wealth of knowledge and experience
in different areas. I don’t know if you want to
18
00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:41,000
dive immediately right into, but when we were
talking about the prospect of talking about
19
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:47,600
adoption and the intersections thereof, that’s
something that is a topic that I personally,
20
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,960
as a child, did not know very much about. I
did not grow up around a lot of people that had
21
00:01:53,960 --> 00:02:00,680
experience with adoption. But I think, like a lot
of Americans who grew up in very Christian areas,
22
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,960
I kind of always heard the, like, “Adoption is a
great option,” or people talking about adoption
23
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:12,440
being like a very altruistic thing to do in
sort of an idealized, kind of savior-y way.
24
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:18,000
[Courtney] And then, as an adult, I began to
befriend people who have gone through, often, very
25
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:25,640
traumatic experiences with adoption or foster care
systems. And so, the last several years — this
26
00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:30,680
has been one of the topics that I specifically
go out of my way and try to learn more about.
27
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,280
And the internet’s been great for that, making
friends has been great for that, but I don’t hear
28
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:43,240
a lot of discussion about this topic in our Ace
community, so I’m really excited to dig into it.
29
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,680
[Kimberly] Yeah, definitely. I agree. Like,
we, you know, as a society, definitely kind
30
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:54,000
of push adopted people to the side. I noticed,
like, people in the foster care system, people
31
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,240
in the adoption care system — only talk about
that when we’re talking about, like, abortion,
32
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:04,160
which is something I noticed especially, you
know, with the Wade versus Roe getting repealed.
33
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,920
It’s like, everybody only wants to talk about
adoption in the sense of, like, “Don’t abort;
34
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:14,320
adopt!” And it’s like, everybody that I saw, like,
during that time that’s adopted was like, “You
35
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:19,400
know what? If you want to abort your child, do
that.” I would have been okay with that, you know?
36
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,560
[Kimberly] Because the adoption system is more than
what people make it out to be. And it has its good
37
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,920
sides, obviously, just like anything. And then
it has its bad sides, right? And to most people,
38
00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:36,480
it has more bad than good. Because on the obvious
side of it, it’s like, you might have — the child
39
00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:42,240
might have to deal with sexual abuse, physical
abuse, neglect, being treated differently because
40
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,480
people kind of view biological kids as better
than adopted kids for some reason. It’s just like,
41
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,680
the way people talk about — even how they’re
like, “I don’t want any — like, I don’t want to
42
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,180
adopt kids. I want, like, my own biological kids.”
There are, like, undertones with that, you know?
43
00:03:56,180 --> 00:04:00,720
[Kimberly] It’s just so much to the adoption
system that we don’t think about. Like,
44
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,320
you’re basically setting the kid up for
abandonment, right? That’s a big part of
45
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,000
it. You’re going to have some type of abandonment
issues when you get ripped away from your, like,
46
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,880
biological family. Because — like, I always tell
people, I think there’s a study, and it says,
47
00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,800
like, a child knows their mother in the womb.
Like, you know your mom’s heartbeat. You know…
48
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,200
You don’t know much, but you can, like, feel
your mother. So I’m like, “When you get ripped
49
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,640
away from your mother as a child, that has a lot
of different things that come from that.” And so,
50
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,080
like, people don’t really get that.
But, you know, I’m trying to, like,
51
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:37,220
open that conversation up a lot more, because
it’s a lot to the foster care/adoptive system.
52
00:04:37,220 --> 00:04:42,320
[Courtney] Do you find that — or do you
believe, based on your own experience,
53
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:49,040
that there’s anything sort of, like, physiological
about that? I mean, aside from the obvious, like,
54
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:54,000
you have to reconcile that cognitively, and
you’re going to come at that differently at
55
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,760
different points in your life. But when
you are saying, “You feel your mother,
56
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,200
you know your mother,” do you,
like, feel it physiologically?
57
00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:07,920
[Kimberly] I would say yes. Like, you’re always
aware of it in many different ways, even, like,
58
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,760
as a kid. Like, you always know something’s
going on, right? Like, for me — and I mean,
59
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,560
it’s more cognizant, I guess, but — you know, I
think for me it was a little different because my
60
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,280
family always told me that I was adopted.
It was never like, “Keep it hush-hush,
61
00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:24,480
it’s a secret,” so, like, I always knew. And
then on top of that, like, the way that the
62
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,160
system is set up. Like, I’m going to visit my
siblings and my mom and stuff like that, so,
63
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,280
like, physically, you know something is kind
of different than what most people deal with,
64
00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,680
because you don’t go and visit your siblings
and mom, like, separately like that.
65
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,800
[Kimberly] So, it was kind of… It was a little
different. But I think it would be different for
66
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:47,120
me if I was… like, I didn’t know. But you know,
even then, I think that the kids who don’t have
67
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,640
that idea that, like, “I might be adopted” type
thing, they don’t have that — they probably know.
68
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,040
Like, you can kind of feel it. Like, something
might be a little off, or, like, certain things
69
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,920
aren’t adding up, and stuff like that. So I
feel like that also is, like, a big thing.
70
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:05,520
[Courtney] And how does that play
into one’s sense of identity?
71
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,800
Because we have all these identities,
whether it’s sexual orientation, race,
72
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,760
romantic orientation — there are so many
different identities that make up a whole
73
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:24,720
person. So I’m just curious what your experience
is as a queer person, as an Ace person. What are
74
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,400
the intersections sort of there with
your experience as an adoptee as well?
75
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,960
[Kimberly] It’s pretty interesting now,
especially, like, being an adult with
76
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,920
it. I think a lot of the parts of my
identity where — when I was a child,
77
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,400
I didn’t think too much about it, you know? It
wasn’t that big of an issue. Because I was like,
78
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,280
“Okay, I got adopted. Cool. Whatever. I’m aware
of it.” But at the time, it didn’t affect me,
79
00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:51,200
right? And then, now that I’m dealing with a
lot of different mental health issues and stuff,
80
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,840
I’m wondering, like, “Okay, are the
abandonment issues that — you know,
81
00:06:54,840 --> 00:07:00,000
the symptoms, are those kind of linked to me
being adopted?” And I have to ask those questions.
82
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,240
[Kimberly] And, as a person that’s adopted and has
faced abandonment issues, talking to my adoptive
83
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,240
parents is hard. Because they’re like, “No, no,
no, that’s just how you are. Like, you’re just,
84
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,800
you know, an introverted person, you’re just
this and that, and it has nothing to do with
85
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,560
you being adopted.” And I’m like, “No, you
have to, like, include that,” right? You have
86
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,560
to make that a part of your identity so that
you can understand, like, the different parts.
87
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:26,160
[Kimberly] How does it affect my mental health?
As we know, a lot of kids in the adoptive and
88
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,160
foster care system struggle with mental health
probably the most out of other kids. Because,
89
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,640
you know, you’re dealing with this loss that’s
so great, and you don’t know how to process it,
90
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,080
and everybody around you is kind
of having that air of, like, “Oh,
91
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,160
everything’s great!” And then you’re going to
have to process that later in life, you know?
92
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,640
[Kimberly] So, in terms of abandonment, a lot of
symptoms include things that kind of relate to
93
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,960
things, like you said, that relate to sexual
orientation, right? One of the things that I
94
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,120
noticed about, like, bisexuality. One of the
things is, like, you tend to overindulge in,
95
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:04,120
like, alcohol, drugs, or, like, different
forms of self-harm. That also is a thing
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with abandonment. And so, like I said earlier,
it’s like, you have to kind of be aware and,
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like, “Okay, is it because of my orientation,
and that’s, you know, more prevalent amongst
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the orientation that I’m with? Or is it,
like, an issue of, like, I’m adopted,
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and, you know, self-harm, overindulgence in
drugs and sex and all that stuff is, like,
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an issue that plagues kids that end up in
an adoption system. So where does it lie?”
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[Kimberly] Like, that’s why I’m very much an
advocate for, like, understanding why — like,
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it kind of goes into the mental health aspect
of it. My sister always says — she’s like,
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“I think you just be trying to, like,
put everything on yourself. Like,
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you look up something and you’re like, ‘Oh,
like, I have this and this.’” And I’m like,
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“It’s not really like that.” I’m just a person
that believes in understanding the labels and,
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like, if you have a word for it, there’s
nothing wrong with having that word,
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you know? People in the older generation
kind of have this belief that, like, “No,
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it’s just — we just use, like, broad words or
derogatory slurs, like the R word. We just like,
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‘Oh, that person is just slow, they’re just dumb,’
da da da.” It’s like, that’s not telling me what
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that person needs, what specific needs they need
to be met, you know, and stuff. So, I’m like —
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[Courtney] Yeah, that’s a great point. Because
what’s really important with any disability or
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with any mental health issue or — there’s strong
overlap between the two; a mental health issue can
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be a disability in and of itself — even if the
label isn’t a slur and isn’t used derogatorily,
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what I think is most important at the end of the
day is: What does that person need? What are the
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access needs? What are the support needs? And
that’s where the ableism in our society comes in,
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because a lot of people just don’t
care what those support needs are.
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[Kimberly] Exactly.
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[Royce] And you mentioned older generations
looking at this in a different light than
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a lot of younger generations. Courtney and I
have talked about how family members — parents,
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aunts, uncles, grandparents — their
generations tended to write off
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anything that seemed to be closely related
to a disability and explain it away. Like,
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we’ve had family members that will refuse to
use mobility aids, even though we can tell that
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they’re struggling. And so the fact that an older
person might look at a younger person and say,
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“Oh, you’re just introverted, that’s just
the way you are,” and not even attempt to
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dive deeper into that, I think might be
part of that same generational concept.
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[Kimberly] It definitely is. Like, it’s… growing
up and seeing that and stuff — like, it honestly
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is kind of defeating. Because, you know, I’ve had
friends who have family and they are disabled and
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stuff, and they’re just like, “Oh, this is
just a bunch of, like, you know, nonsense,
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and you’re just making up stuff and whatnot.”
And it’s just like, I don’t understand how you
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can’t see that. Like, first of all, like, there
are so many people with different disabilities,
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right? And it’s going to be different all
across the board. Even the spectrum, for,
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like, the disability in itself is going to
be different. Like, I got a friend who has
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chronic pain; not going to be the same as another
friend who has chronic pain, and stuff. Like,
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one can work; one can’t. People don’t understand
that. They think, like, “Oh, chronic pain. Like,
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if that person is working, you could work.” And
it’s like, that’s not how that works, you know?
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[Kimberly] And that’s how I kind of look at
myself. Because I’m struggling with a bunch
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of things. Like, I’ve been diagnosed with, like,
anxiety and depression, you know? Anxiety I’ve
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had all my life. It was very debilitating, even
at some points, and stuff. Sometimes it kind
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of goes away and I’m fine, but then, like,
sometimes, it’s, like, really, really bad.
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It’ll come out of nowhere. And people are like,
“What triggered it?” I’m like, “Nothing! Like,
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it’s just panic disorder. It just happens,” you
know? And, like, it’s hard to explain to people.
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[Kimberly] And so, like, there are other things
that I feel like I don’t have a term for that I
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might have an idea about. But, like, talking
to people who aren’t deep into the mental
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health/disability spaces, they kind of are just
like, “Don’t worry about it! If it affects your
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job and stuff like that, like, just… I don’t know,
keep working,” like, you know? [laughs] And so
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it’s like, if I keep quitting these jobs because
something in me is not… It’s not even about being
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satisfied. I just, physically… It’s kind of
like a burnout, right? Like a really, really
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bad burnout. I can’t do it anymore. I’m on the
brink. And so, like, I notice that and I’m trying
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to get help for it. But everybody else is just
like, “Nah, like, everybody wants to quit their
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job. Everybody wants to, you know, not work.”
And I’m like, “But for me, it’s so strong that
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I think it’s an issue and I need to get help for
it.” And they’re just like, “Nah.” Like… [laughs]
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[Courtney] That’s another thing we talk
about a lot. Because, especially as a child,
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if you are a child who has any sort of disability,
neurodivergence, mental health issue, it’s very
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difficult to know that you have a different set
of needs from everyone else. Because you hear the
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way people talk about things and you just assume
that other people are feeling the same way you do.
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And even to a certain extent, like, chronic pain,
too. Like, if you’re a kid who has chronic pain,
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like, people will be like, “Oh, it’s growing
pains. Everyone gets those.” And so you just
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sort of normalize it in your head, like, “Well,
I guess everyone has this. So if everyone feels
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the way I do and they can do this, then surely,
it’s a moral failing on my part If I cannot.”
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[Courtney] And so that’s, like, such a big
part of learning how to understand yourself
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as an adult and, like, as a disabled
adult, as an adult with mental health
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issues — especially if they trace back to
your childhood, because then you have to
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start connecting the dots and like, “Wait
a minute, that wasn’t actually normal.”
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[Kimberly] Exactly.
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[Courtney] “So now that I know that that wasn’t
normal, what do I do with this information?”
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And that kind
of goes hand in hand with, like,
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me getting diagnosed with ADHD. It was just
recently. Like, it was the beginning of last
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month — it was September — and I had went to
a psychiatrist. And you know, it was, like,
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one meeting, and he… Like, I kept droning on
and on and on. And, like, I mean, obviously,
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now I know it’s kind of an ADHD thing, but I guess
I used to attribute it to, like, I’m very much a
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loner, an introvert. It’s kind of going back into
what we said, like, people just be like, “Oh,
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it’s just you being an introvert. So, you know,
socially, you’re just going to keep, you know,
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talking, talking, talking.” And I’m like, “Okay,
cool. Like, yeah, that makes sense.” Because I’m
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always by myself, and I just kind of take over the
conversation because, like, sometimes, socially,
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I’m not thinking, like, “Okay, it’s time to,
like, let other people talk,” type thing,
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you know? And so I just attributed it to that.
And now I’m like, “It makes sense.” Because I
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did assume that I had ADHD at one point. But then
I was like, “I can’t self-diagnose, can’t do it.”
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[Courtney] Ahh. [laughs]
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[Kimberly] You know? “That’s disrespectful,” you
know? Because I’ve seen so many people on my
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Facebook — they have these discussions
about self-diagnosing. And it’s like,
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“You can’t do that because, you know, it’s harmful
and people just are faking stuff.” And I’m like,
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“I get that.” Because I’ve seen people fake
stuff to get attention and stuff like that.
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[Kimberly] But I’m like, my thing was, you’re
going to have to self-diagnose at some point,
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right? Because, like you said, when I was
younger, I kind of knew I had something.
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I didn’t know what. It was very bad. My
anxiety was the first mental health that,
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like, I was very aware of. I don’t even know how
to explain it. It sounds insane. [laughs] Like,
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we used to drive down this road, down Kedzie,
by where my house is, and I don’t know if
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it was because it felt, like, claustrophobic
or what, but, like, I always had this, like,
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feeling. Like, I was like, “I gotta get out of
here,” right? Like, I was dang near ready to
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just undo my seatbelt and just open the door and,
like, get out of the car — like, a moving car.
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[Kimberly] And so I was like, “This isn’t
normal,” right? Like, I don’t got a word for it,
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but it’s not normal why I’m so, like, heightened
and on edge all the time. But I was like, “Okay,
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cool, whatever,” just kind of like rode it out for
years and stuff like that. And then I would, like,
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explain it to my, I think, therapist
at the time and they were like, “Yeah,
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you have panic disorder.” I was like, “Oh,
that makes sense,” [laughing] you know?
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[Kimberly] But I’m like, I had to think about it. I
had to be like — I had to self-diagnose a little,
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right? I had to be like, “Something’s wrong.”
That’s the first thing of, like, a self-diagnosis.
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Like, you have to say something’s wrong so you can
get that help. ‘Cause if you don’t know anything’s
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wrong — like we said about the older generation
— you could just go on in life and just be like,
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“Nothing’s wrong. I’m not —” Especially,
like, with certain things where it’s, like,
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narcissism and stuff like that. Narcissists, like,
they probably don’t know because they don’t know
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the signs, they don’t know the symptoms and stuff,
and they inadvertently might be hurting somebody
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else. Same with, like, BPD or, you know,
personality disorders and stuff like that.
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[Courtney] Yeah, like, the highly
stigmatized, like, cluster B,
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like — that are also used very ableistically.
Like, people will just be like, “Oh,
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don’t trust a narcissist,” even though it’s like,
a narcissist could be a perfectly lovely person.
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s like, we don’t
know, because we don’t have that knowledge
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of it. Because with things in terms of, like,
disability and just mental health in general,
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everybody’s just like, “Don’t talk about it!”
until we want to put a… I don’t know how to
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phrase it. Because there’s a thing now with…
Like I said, narcissism is kind of like ADHD,
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bipolar. I noticed that neurotypical people
or people who don’t have mental illnesses,
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they tend to take a word and then kind of shift
the word’s meaning into something just for them.
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[Courtney] Yeah. There are definitely, like,
colloquial uses of diagnoses. I… For example,
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like, one of my first mental health things
that a doctor ever kind of floated in my
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direction was OCD. And, like, that’s one where
a lot of people will use OCD as, like, “Oh,
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I just like to be very tidy,” or “I’m very
particular about where I want things.” But
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folks who have been diagnosed with OCD know
that that’s not what that is in the clinical
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setting. And that’s kind of a constant battle.
Because people have different ideas about how
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harmful that is or is not, that there’s sort of
a diagnostic use of a word and then a colloquial
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use of a word. And some of it is… like,
sometimes it’s meant to be very harmless.
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Someone isn’t trying to be ableist if they use
one of those colloquial uses. But especially
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the more stigmatized disorders, the ones that
people know even less about, often say, like,
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“This is really, really harmful, because now
it’s further stigmatizing it.” People are,
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you know, getting less access to information
by this sort of colloquial use of this term.
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[Royce] And our media compounds that a lot, too.
Because there have been a lot of trope-y, like,
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genius investigator characters that all have
OCD traits. There are a lot of villains that
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are portrayed as narcissistic, or things
like that that just further the stereotypes.
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[Kimberly] Exactly. And that’s why it’s
definitely important to, like, you know,
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know what these things are. And I feel
like having characters where even, like,
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the term is used and stuff, so that the person
can know, like, “Oh, this is, like…” You know,
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not the whole character, because sometimes your
character, you know, traits can be different
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from your symptoms and stuff like that, but
sometimes they can be, like, the same thing.
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[Kimberly] Because, you know, I always talk about
how, like, with BPD, right? And I don’t know if
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I have it. I just, I feel like I have, like,
certain symptoms of it, but I’m not going to
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say I have it. But I relate to a lot of things
that, you know, the BPD community says. Because
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a big part of BPD is abandonment, you know?
I’m just aware of it. I think with, like, BPD,
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it’s definitely got a stigma to it. I think a
lot of people don’t know what it is. Because,
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like, I try to explain certain things to my
mom and stuff like that, and then she’s like…
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She doesn’t get it. I think they look for,
like, the word and the term. Like “anxiety”:
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you already know what that is. Borderline is
kind of harder because it’s like, “What does that
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mean? Borderline of what?” You know? And, like,
people have that conversation a lot and stuff.
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[Kimberly] And it’s like, no, it’s more like,
“I got abandoned in some way, shape, or form,
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and I’m trying to, like, make sure that
this person doesn’t leave me” type thing,
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you know? And so I’m trying to, like, get my
family to understand that in the context of,
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like we said earlier, being adopted. You
know, even with that diagnosis and stuff. And,
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like I said, I don’t want to, like, say I
have it, but it is very… like I was saying,
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it’s integral to my experiences. Because, like,
yeah, I have those moments where I’m, like,
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constantly asking the person, like, “Do you love
me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love
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me?” It gets annoying. Like, in my mind, I’m
like, “Okay, we gotta stop that,” but I can’t.
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[Kimberly] Those things kind of are the
symptoms of me thinking, like, “Hey,
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I might have BPD.” But even if I don’t get the
diagnosis or whatever, it’s just good to know,
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like, this is something that I do, and if it’s
something different, then that’s cool with me,
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you know? Because I did tell the psychiatrist
I had saw, and he was like, “I think you have,
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like, reactive…” No, is it, like, reactive…? RAD.
It’s reactive attachment disorder. And I’m like,
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“Okay, that’s cool, too,” you know? I’m not going
to argue and be like, “No, I have BPD.” I’m open
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to different things, and as long as you’re
hearing me and thinking steps ahead of, like,
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“Maybe you have this and maybe you have that,”
that’s cool, you know? It might not be perfect,
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but something to explain, like, even the smallest
traits or whatever could be kind of helpful.
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[Courtney] Well, self-diagnosis, I find, is very
often the first step to a real diagnosis, which,
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in my opinion, also — back to one of our previous
points — the diagnosis is not the point. The
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support and the access needs are the point. And,
depending on what diagnosis we’re talking about,
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sometimes you need a diagnosis, especially if it’s
something like medication prescriptions. Like,
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that is the first step to getting that
type of support for things of that nature.
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[Courtney] And… Well, first of all, I know from
other friends of mine that BPD is, like, very
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often misdiagnosed, and a lot of people tend to go
through several different other diagnoses before
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they land on BPD. So sometimes, like, just getting
that diagnosis is also a journey of finding what
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you can relate to in the BPD community and then
sort of self-advocating in the clinical setting.
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[Courtney] But even if that’s not what the final
answer is, sometimes posing the question or
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learning what traits you can identify with and
see in yourself — sometimes that helps give you
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language, also, to even speak to a doctor, to a
therapist or whomever is in your support structure
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to say, like, “Hey, I’m learning this, I kind of
relate to this, what do you make of that?” Because
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otherwise, again, sometimes it’s hard to suss
out, like, what is normal, what is not normal,
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and if you have other diagnoses under your
belts, even something as broad as, like,
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anxiety, it’s like, is this from anxiety or is
this different or new or evolved from anxiety?
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[Courtney] So I think it helps to have a lot of
just, like, tools and a lot of vocabulary in your
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arsenal to be able to go on this journey. Because
I find that doctors can almost be as bad as, like,
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parents and family in older generations
for, like, oh, just dismissing things,
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like, “Ah, that’s normal.” And if you don’t
explain something in exactly the right way,
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they aren’t going to look into it. And of course,
there are some doctors that are great. I’m not
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saying every doctor is terrible and dismissive,
but a lot of them certainly are. And there are
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other things that play into that as well. You
know, women are less likely to be believed,
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Black people are less likely to be
believed, any racialized person. And
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so there are definitely intersections
there as well in the clinical setting.
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[Kimberly] Definitely is. And, you know, like,
I just learned that it’s very hard for Black
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women to get diagnosed with ADHD. And I’m
like, “That’s crazy.” Because I understand
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for women it’s harder because it looks
different than in men, but it’s just,
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like, to think that, you know… Also, on
the stigma of, like, Black women, you know,
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they don’t believe anything we say. We go
in and we’re like, “I feel like, you know,
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something’s wrong.” They’re like, “You’re
lying.” And I’m like [laughs]… you know?
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[Kimberly] So it’s like, that on top of, like,
us not being… like, a lot of our actions and
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stuff being written off as, like, “Oh, that’s just
how Black people act,” and stuff. It’s not like,
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you know, her tapping her nails [taps
nails on table] like this or whatever,
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it’s not an ADHD trait. It’s just
like, “That’s just what they do.
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They just tap their nails because they
have long nails.” And it’s like, no.
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[Courtney laughs]
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[Kimberly] Like, you know? I didn’t even know that!
I was like, “Wait. Like, tapping your nails and
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doing all those little things is stimming?” And,
like, they’re like, “Yeah.” It’s going to look
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different for Black people, or just in general,
it’s going to look different for everybody,
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but with us, because you know, we have, like —
some of us get long nails and stuff like that,
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and then, like, whatever else you have on you and
stuff like that. I can’t think of the exact ones,
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but I was, like, so in shock because they
listed a bunch of them. I was like, “Wow,
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a lot of us might actually have
ADHD!” That’s crazy! You know?
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[Courtney laughs]
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[Kimberly] But it’s kind of cool, like, because now
we have those, you know, things to tell you. Like,
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“Hey, yeah, this is, like, you know,
that.” And it’s good to have that, like,
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terminology because, you know, it’s good,
because people are kind of receptive to it,
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like, “Oh, that’s like, an ADHD thing,”
or “This is an Autistic thing.” Like,
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“Okay,” like, “I’m considering it,
like, I’m thinking about it,” you know?
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[Kimberly] And I think that’s where the whole
self-diagnosis thing gets, like, a bad rep,
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especially on, like, TikTok and stuff, where
sometimes you can tell when things are just
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kind of like for views and stuff like that.
But then some things are trying to be, like,
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informative, and then people were like, “Well,
maybe I do have, like, this thing,” and stuff,
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and then people kind of take it as, like, “Now
everybody wants to be Autistic and everybody
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wants to have ADHD,” and it’s like, I
don’t think anybody wants that stuff.
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You know what I’m saying? Like, it’s not fun
to have, you know? Like, it kind of is very…
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[Kimberly] It hurts. Because, like, for me, when I
was working in, like, Olive Garden, my ADHD stuff
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really kicked into high gear. Like, the memory
loss, it kicked into high gear so bad. Like,
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I would be at the bar. And then next thing
you know, like, I’m walking out to go get
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something. I’m clearly like, “Yes, I need ice.”
And then I’m like, I walk out a couple paces and
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then next thing I know, I’ll stop. I’m like,
“What? What did I…?” You know? And I’m like —
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[Courtney] “It’s gone.” [laughs]
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[Kimberly] Yes! It’s just, it’s gone into the,
into the nethersphere. Like, I’m just like,
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“That’s scary!” Like, because, you know, my family
always pushes it off as, like, you know, “Oh,
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like, you’re just young and you just forgetful.”
Or, you know, my sister would sometimes say, like,
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“You have selective memory. You remember what you
want to remember.” I’m like, “That’s not true.”
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Because if it’s something even small, like, “Oh,
go pick up that book right there that I like,”
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I could forget it. So it’s not selective, you
know? Like, the way she said it before is just so
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condescending, I guess. It kind of hurt. Because
it’s like, I think there’s something going on,
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and I’m kind of scared, because what if I have,
like, early onset Alzheimer’s or something? Like,
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I don’t know. Because I would look it up, and then
I’m like, but if I look it up, then she’s right,
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because I’m justlooking up stuff and, like, I’m
just a hypochondriac, like she said, you know?
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[Kimberly] And it’s like, okay, but having those
things and knowing the symptoms of, like, ADHD and
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not just what everybody thinks ADHD is — which
is, like, “Oh, I’m running like The Flash, I’m
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just running all over the place, and I’m just, you
know, talking, you know, 80 miles per hour, type
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thing.” And that’s so funny, because when my mom
was babysitting for my sister’s friend’s kids, we
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knew that one of them had Autism, so, like, they
already knew that. So it was like, cool, whatever.
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And then we had the little boy, and he kind of
had, like, the stereotypical symptoms of ADHD.
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And so… but then he also had stuff where he would,
like, bang his head on the table and stuff, and he
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just wouldn’t feel it and stuff. And I was like,
“This is just giving ADHD,” right? [laughing]
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[Kimberly] And, like, I felt bad because
I’m like, yeah, him running around, but,
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like, he’s a little boy, you know? People
are usually like, “Oh, don’t just put that
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on them,” and stuff like that, or whatever. But
I’m, like, looking at him and I’m thinking about,
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like, all the things that I do
know at that time, and I’m like,
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“It looks like ADHD.” And so I, like, I told
my family and stuff, and they were like, “Yeah,
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I don’t really know,” and stuff. And then come to
find out, maybe, like, a year later or something,
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he got diagnosed with ADHD. I was like — it’s
so funny, because I’m like — looking at it now,
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with my diagnosis last month, I’m like, “Wow,
real recognizes real,” because we both have ADHD.
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[Courtney] Yes!
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[Courtney and Kimberly laugh]
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[Kimberly] I love that! Like, you know?
I don’t really know too much about the
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Autism scene and stuff like that. Like, so I
wouldn’t have been able to diagnose his sister,
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but I was like, “I definitely know he
got ADHD.” [laughs] So it was hilarious.
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[Courtney] Yeah, and the more you learn, too
— and I think an unfortunate side effect of
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this is that it sort of reconfirms the people
who are in the very ignorant camp of, like,
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“Well, it’s a social contagion. Everyone wants
to have Autism, everyone wants to have ADHD,
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so more people are self-diagnosing, and they
don’t actually have this thing. It’s way
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more rare than you think.” But when you actually
learn what the, like, neurodivergent traits are,
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once you learn how they manifest in your own body,
once you view how they manifest in other people’s
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bodies, you do start to get good at picking
those traits out in other people. [laughs]
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[Courtney] This actually happened to me really
recently. I had a doctor… my pain doctor actually
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recommended that I take up tai chi, and I was
like, “That’s an interesting idea,” because
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with my dance background, I bet I’m really good
at it, or I would be good at it, and it would be
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something that’s low-impact enough on my joints
that I could do it more regularly than a lot of
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other exercises. And so the two things I was
concerned about, though: first of all, tai
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chi — I’ve seen a lot of, like, middle-aged white
gym bros lately who have, like, just gotten turned
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on to tai chi, and they use it as, like, “This is
a great supplement to your body-building on break
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days!” And it’s like, I am 1000% not going to
learn tai chi from a white gym bro, first of all.
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So I have to find, you know, someone who has some
connection to the culture that I trust. Because I
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also — I love history. I love learning about other
cultures too, so it’s like, I don’t only want to
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learn the art and the exercise, I also want to
learn the history, I want to learn the culture.
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So I’d like to find someone who can do that for
me. But also, I’m still super immunocompromised,
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and I’m not going to be in, like, a closed
indoor space with a huge group of people.
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So where am I going to find a class that I feel
comfortable going to, even if I put my mask on?
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[Courtney] And I got really, really lucky, because
— and this was wild to me. I was just researching,
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like, things in my area. I found a tai chi
master, Chen Huixian, who is literally, like,
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the 20th generation descendant of the people who
invented tai chi. She was born in Chen Village,
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which is named after her family, because her
family invented tai chi. And she’s, like,
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the only descendant of the Chen family who is,
like, regularly teaching classes at the same place
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in the United States. And I was like, “Wow! Can’t
get any closer to the culture than that. That’s
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clearly going to be my teacher.” And she teaches
outside in the park. So I’m like, “Oh, brilliant!”
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[Courtney] So I’ve been doing tai chi, and I
actually am, I think, pretty good at it and
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I enjoy it, and so I’m going out into the park
and I’m doing my tai chi. But I came home one day
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after the first day of tai chi, and I was like,
“Hey, Royce, I think there’s a classmate that I
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was talking to that is also Autistic.” And I was
like, “I’m seeing it in everyone now.” Every,
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like, new person I meet, or every new group
of people, I’m able to pick out the Autistic
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people. But I’m like, “I’m clearly not
going to say anything.” This was, like,
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just a theory in my head that, like, Royce
and I are trying to figure out, like, what
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neurodivergence means to us and, and you know, not
being diagnosed as children, and things like that.
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[Courtney] But I actually did get my confirmation.
Because now, several months after this first,
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like, “I think that person is Autistic,” he
actually did tell me that yesterday. Like,
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just casually in conversation, like, “Oh,
yeah, you know, I have Autism, and so X,
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Y, and Z,” and I was like, “I knew it.”
[laughs] As you said, real recognize real.
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[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
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00:32:15,073 --> 00:32:18,840
[Royce] Well, to the groups of people out
there who are very dismissive — I mean,
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we hear this a lot with just broader
queer orientations in general, like,
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“Oh, you’re just trying to be special.”
And it’s like, “No, I don’t want to be
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harassed constantly for just existing or
for mentioning something about my identity.”
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00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:38,640
[Royce] But I think that in both physical and
mental diagnoses, we’re starting to realize now,
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possibly because of all the connections
that can be drawn through the internet,
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that a lot of things that were considered
rare are not really that rare. I mean,
401
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,400
Courtney, your, like, major diagnoses
throughout your life has been EDS,
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00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,200
and that’s hit the news cycles a few times
in recent years where it’s starting — like,
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we’re actually getting numbers of,
“This is how common it actually is.”
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00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,400
[Royce] And I don’t know how accurate this is,
because I didn’t dig into it extensively, but
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I’ve seen some people say that the neurotypical
to neurodivergent ratios are like 80:20. Like,
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potentially 20% of the population has some form
of neurodivergence. It just may not be… Like,
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00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,640
when I was a kid, the kinds of neurodivergence
that were actually spoken of, I think,
408
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are like one end of that spectrum, and
that there are a lot of other forms or
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a lot of other presentations that we’re just
starting to uncover and be able to recognize.
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00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,920
[Courtney] Well, and more heavily researched
amongst, like, young white boys, for the most
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00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:42,160
part — which is really difficult to have that
conversation within the queer community as well,
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because we know that the gender binary is
bullshit. [laughs] So it’s still really
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hard to have conversations like, “Well, Autism
in women looks different.” So I haven’t found
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00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:01,000
the correct way to talk about these things yet,
especially in our Aspec community where we have
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such a high percentage of nonbinary folks.
It’s like, every time I hear these, like,
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clinical assessments of, like, “Male
versus female neurodivergence,” like,
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I want more research into gender
expansiveness on top of neurodivergence,
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because I don’t have the answers for how to
talk about this. I can only say, like, “Well,
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this is what the medical professionals say, and
as a queer person, I know that’s reductive.”
420
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[Kimberly] Definitely. Like, it kind of shoots you
in the foot because it’s like, yeah, you just kind
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00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,640
of backtrack. Like, you know, you’re like, “Yeah,
man and woman.” Then you’re just like, “We know
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nonbinary people exist and stuff. But, you know,
they aren’t going to put it in the studies and
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stuff.” Because, like, I feel like they just kind
of look at it like that’s too much extra stuff,
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like, why are you doing all this extra stuff,
you know? And it’s like, no, it’s important.
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00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:57,320
[Kimberly] So, even, like, the distinction between
a nonbinary person and a genderfluid person,
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and, like, you know it’s just such a
broad spectrum — just like, you know,
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00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,880
mental health and disability, so it should
be treated as such, the same way, you know?
428
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,840
[Royce] There’s also a distinction that I think
people are often somewhat uncomfortable to talk
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00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,280
about, where there’s more than one manifestation
of gender. Like, there’s your actual gender
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00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,440
identity. There’s the person who you are. And
then there’s the stuff that gets projected onto
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00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,000
you by the people around you. And some really,
like, early childhood behavioral traits are sort
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00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,360
of conditioned into you by the environment that
you grow up in, and that is very much situated
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00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,640
around how people perceive you or how people treat
you, and not necessarily who you are as a person.
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[Kimberly] That is facts.
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00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:41,360
[Courtney] Even those things, too — like,
neurodivergent people are going to view,
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00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,640
you know, “correct” social behavior —
quote, “correct” — like, differently,
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00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,720
and whether it’s just a sort of like, “It
goes over my head,” or whether it’s like,
438
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:56,800
“I know what the social norm is, but that’s
ridiculous, so I’m not going to adhere to it.”
439
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,360
Wherever you are on the spectrum of that,
like, there’s also those things. So, like,
440
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,600
neurodivergence is going to change what those
conditioned behaviors are, or if there are any.
441
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,280
[Courtney] And I’ve read so many studies that
do look into gender and Autism specifically,
442
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,640
but some that are a little more
broadly neurodivergent, where, like,
443
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:25,000
neurodivergent people do seem to have a higher
likelihood of being queer or not adhering to
444
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:31,240
their gender assigned at birth. And it’s like, I
find that really fascinating! Because there are
445
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:36,520
so many thought experiments you can do with that.
Like, is this just even further proof that gender
446
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:43,120
is all just a social construct? Like, and the
people who don’t care about the social constructs,
447
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,160
more often than not, are the ones who
are bucking them more often, you know?
448
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:53,200
[Kimberly] And it reminds me of, I believe it was
the… It was the Down syndrome group, I believe;
449
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,640
they have, like, a social media presence, and I
think it was, like, the drag queens were, like,
450
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:03,840
reading them or something, and then people were
like, “That’s so horrible!” Like, “Why are you
451
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,720
pushing it onto, like, people with Down syndrome?”
and stuff like that. And so, like, that,
452
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:12,920
at the time, made me think, like you said, that
people who are neurodivergent tend to be more,
453
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,800
like, on the queer spectrum, and it’s like, they
don’t want us to have that autonomy. They think,
454
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,360
like — excuse the language, but this is how
they speak. But it’s like, “You’re slow. You
455
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,360
can’t think past, like, you know, sexuality —
you can’t think about that kind of stuff. Like,
456
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,560
you’re dealing with all these disabilities
and mental health things or whatever. Like,
457
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,880
you can’t possibly know what your
sexuality is. I can tell you that,
458
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,520
though!” Like, “You can’t interact with
this group of people because, like,
459
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,150
that’s just — you know, they’re trying to throw
propaganda at you,” you know? So it’s like —
460
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:42,580
[Courtney] Yeah.
461
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:44,240
[Kimberly] Yeah, that was crazy.
462
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:52,720
[Courtney] It’s so infantilizing, and it’s
where the super fun intersection of ableism
463
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,960
and queerphobia meets. [laughs] Because,
you know, we’re in the Kansas City area,
464
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,360
so we sort of have, like, one foot on either side
of Kansas and Missouri, so we watch both politics
465
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:11,000
very carefully. But Missouri specifically was, you
know, coming out trying to say, like, “A diagnosis
466
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:18,160
of Autism is going to prevent you from being able
to access gender-affirming care.” And it’s like,
467
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,560
why? Because they’re saying, like, “Oh, well,
you know, this person — I want to take their
468
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,080
autonomy away because they don’t know it’s best
for them, so I want to protect them.” But at the
469
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:31,400
end of the day, now you’re still, once again,
insinuating that queerness is something you’re
470
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,640
protecting people from. It’s this dangerous
thing that we can’t let them get involved in.
471
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,600
[Kimberly] Exactly. And I’m like, “Where’s the
energy when it comes to actually funding, like,
472
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,600
certain groups and stuff and disabilities, and
giving them money and, you know, helping — like,
473
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,800
even adopt the kids? Like, you’re just
worried about what they can and can’t do,
474
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,840
and they’re so inept that they can’t,
you know, make decisions on their own,
475
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,280
and stuff like that.” But it’s like, if you
want to put money towards something or you
476
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,160
want to patronize people, like, put your money
where your mouth is, you know? [laughing] Like,
477
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,480
just give us the, you know, resources
that we need for the important thing.
478
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,040
[Kimberly] And then also something that Royce
had said earlier about, like, you know,
479
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,760
gender and being in certain environments and
stuff. It’s so funny, because I have a story,
480
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,560
and I always tell people. When I was growing
up, I was in the foster care system. My favorite
481
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,440
character, if you see her in the background:
Rose Wilson. She’s literally — that’s the same
482
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,540
name as the lady that I was in foster care with.
It’s so wild to me. Like, my favorite character.
483
00:39:27,540 --> 00:39:28,560
[Courtney] Oh, really!
484
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,760
[Kimberly] Yeah! I told my mom, like, “Yeah, my
favorite character is Rose Wilson.” She was like,
485
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,240
“That’s your foster parent’s name.” And
I was like, “Oh my God, that’s so weird!”
486
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:37,870
[Courtney] Wow! [laughs]
487
00:39:37,870 --> 00:39:42,680
[Kimberly] But it gets worse! So, basically, when
I was in the foster care system or whatever,
488
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,840
she used to dress me up like a boy. Now,
that would be cool with me, whatever,
489
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,440
if she didn’t dress my sister up like a girl —
490
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,066
[Courtney] Oh.
491
00:39:52,066 --> 00:39:55,320
[Kimberly] — simply because my
sister is of lighter complexion.
492
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,400
[Courtney] Ugh.
493
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,400
[Kimberly] So, yeah, when Royce was saying that,
like, environment with gender, and then also,
494
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,720
like, being in the foster care system, you really
could just get put in any random person’s house.
495
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:12,160
They could do what they want with you, you know?
Like, I kind of grew out of the binary thing,
496
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,680
so I kind of laugh about it now, but it’s
just like, in the Black community, obviously,
497
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:22,480
like, we kind of attribute dark skin to
man, light skin to woman. So it’s like,
498
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,990
that kind of hurt growing up and stuff. So it’s
like, my sister’s better than me, da da da da.
499
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:31,240
[Kimberly] When I got to my family now, they
didn’t do anything like that. In fact, my dad
500
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:35,560
used to always take me places and then leave my
sister at home. It’s like — it wasn’t anything,
501
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:41,360
like, malicious. He just, you know, I was younger,
so they always attach to the younger kids more and
502
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,680
stuff, and I wish that that didn’t happen. But,
you know, I think that my family was good on
503
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,920
re-correcting those things. And, you know, they
were always trying to look out for me and, like,
504
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,680
grow my hair out and make sure that, you know,
presented as a girl, but then also, later down
505
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:02,040
the line, if that wasn’t who I am and stuff, like,
they are more accepting now, and stuff like that.
506
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:08,300
[Kimberly] So I just feel like it’s different.
Because gender on the spectrum of race, even
507
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:14,800
— like, those intersections are crazy. Because,
like, if you’re, you know, born female and then
508
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,400
you identify with a man or being, like, male or
male pronouns, people are going to question that.
509
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,840
Like, is it because, like, they’re dark skinned?
Is it because they grew up around men? Or is it
510
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,540
because they grew up around lesbians? Like, what
is it? And so it’s an interesting thing, you know?
511
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:36,560
[Kimberly] And so, like, that story will kind of
always stick with me, because, like, it was based
512
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,560
in colorism. And I’m like… you know, I didn’t get
to choose or anything. It’s not like I was like,
513
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:46,000
“I want to be a little boy!” or whatever and
stuff. And that even kind of went over into,
514
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
like, my childhood. Like, me and my sister, we’d
always be like — you know, when you watch TV with
515
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,040
your siblings and stuff, and you’re like, “Oh,
I’m that character, I’m that character,” and stuff
516
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,640
like that, I always try to, like, always align
with the female characters — probably because,
517
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,840
even as a kid, I’m like, you could probably
feel those things too, where it’s like,
518
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,920
this person wants me to be this thing, but
you don’t understand why, you know? Like,
519
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,440
I didn’t understand that she only dressed me up as
a boy for colorist reasons. But now I’m aware of
520
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,440
it, and I’m just like, “What was the reason?”
[laughing] You know? Like, I don’t know. When
521
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,120
it’s in connection with colorism, I think it’s
just more like… That’s why I get flabbergasted
522
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,520
by the situation, because it’s not like you
let me pick out my clothes and was like,
523
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,980
“You pick out what clothes you want.” You just
were like, “Oh, dark skin, short hair: boy.”
524
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:34,760
[Courtney] Yeah. I mean, those are all important
things to consider with, like, environment,
525
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:41,280
because that’s incredibly hostile. And even if,
you know… those clothes and that presentation,
526
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,520
even if that’s something that, you
know, you would like or be okay with,
527
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,840
if you know that you are being treated
differently than everyone else,
528
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:56,160
that’s always going to sit wrong, at least
a little bit. It’s very complicated. Ugh.
529
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,280
[Kimberly] It definitely is.
530
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,480
[Courtney] Yeah. With the foster system as
well — because this is something that I’ve
531
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,320
tried to do as much just like… I don’t want
to say “research.” I guess it is research,
532
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,800
but it’s more of learning of other firsthand
experiences and people who have been through
533
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,320
the system, and not only listening to
people who are or have been foster parents,
534
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:23,720
you know? Because I feel like a lot of people
think that the ultimate goal of the foster
535
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:31,720
care system is to get adopted, and that’s
also not true for a lot of kids. In fact,
536
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:38,920
a lot of kids in the foster care system do
have families, and the goal at the end of the
537
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,440
day should be to get them back to their families
in the safe environment where they belong, once
538
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:52,040
whatever needs to be sorted out and corrected has
been. And from what I understand, from firsthand
539
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:59,080
experiences I’ve been learning about, a lot of
foster parents don’t really respect that or sort
540
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:06,280
of see themselves as a partner in doing what is
truly best for the child, at the end of the day.
541
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:13,720
[Courtney] And one thing that sort of just, like,
opened my eyes in a way that I hadn’t had them
542
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:19,840
open before was I kind of found myself on, like,
Adoptee TikTok a couple years ago. [laughs] If
543
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,640
you find, like, a specific hole of TikTok where
you’re getting a lot of videos on the same topic,
544
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:33,160
you can learn a lot really, really fast. [laughs]
And one thing that was sort of stated was that…
545
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,080
Because you also, at least in the history of
the internet, even back to, like, early YouTube,
546
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,600
there would be all these videos of, like, “Oh
for Christmas, I’m going to adopt my foster
547
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,880
child,” and there’ll be this big, like, emotional
video where everyone’s crying and you have, like,
548
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,360
the adoption paperwork in a box, and it’s this big
reveal, and everyone’s, like, trained to say this
549
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:59,840
is a very feelgood thing. And it might be for that
particular family in that particular situation.
550
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,760
But I think it’s given a lot of people the
perception that adoption is always a very good,
551
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,700
happy, emotional thing and it’s positive for
everyone involved, and that is so not the case.
552
00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:19,800
[Courtney] But I saw someone who was adopted and
then became a foster parent, so had sort of both
553
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:26,280
sides of this equation, perspective-wise. And
she was saying that she’s learned and she’s
554
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:32,480
decided over the years that she would never
adopt a child before a certain age if their
555
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:39,840
parents were still alive. She was like, “I would
wait until I felt like that child was old enough
556
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:46,660
to truly understand what adoption means and
to be able to consent to my adopting them.”
557
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:51,960
[Courtney] And I was like, “Whoa!”
Because when it comes to the foster
558
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,600
care system — I’m sure you can tell me far
better than I could tell our listeners,
559
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:02,000
but it seems like there’s a lot of autonomy that
is taken away from children in the foster care
560
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,800
system. And so that was sort of the first time I
had someone use the word “consent.” And of course,
561
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,160
once you use that word, it makes all
the sense in the world to me. Like yes,
562
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:19,160
where is the consent in this system? That is
a way that I haven’t seen that presented yet.
563
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:25,520
[Kimberly] Absolutely. All of that. I’m trying to
process. But, yeah, like, a lot of people — I feel
564
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,120
like that’s why they want to adopt the younger
kids. Because, like you said, there is no consent
565
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,840
there. Like, it’s a baby. They don’t know what’s
going on, and stuff like that. Whereas the kids
566
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,840
who are older and stuff and have seen a lot of
different things and stuff like that, they’re kind
567
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,000
of deemed as, like, disposable. Because it’s like,
“Okay, you know what’s going on. You clearly don’t
568
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,720
like it, so you might have a reaction or behavior
that’s going to go against what I want. I want
569
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:54,080
a perfect child. I want a child that’s going to,
you know, act like a biological child,” you know?
570
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,560
[Kimberly] And so, like, even that in
itself is something that we don’t talk
571
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,840
about or think about. And so, like,
yeah, I think that a lot of the times,
572
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:07,200
people have these conversations about adoption
being a form of slavery — like, child slavery and
573
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,920
stuff. And I think that that’s a good thing, like,
that’s starting to come out of this and stuff,
574
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,160
because it is a form of that. Like, it’s just
like, “Okay, let me throw some money at this,
575
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,600
and then I’m’a buy a child.” And you don’t think
about the ramifications of the things that that
576
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,680
child’s going to go through, you know, things
that that child’s going to feel emotionally.
577
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,360
[Kimberly] My mom and my family took classes for,
you know, me and my sister so that we can get
578
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,120
adopted and stuff. But I don’t think those classes
really even help the kids that are, you know,
579
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:40,000
in that system, because it teaches you, like,
“Hey, don’t leave any plugs undone, or don’t do
580
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,560
this,” and stuff like that. But when it comes down
to, like, “How’s that kid going to feel when they
581
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,440
get older, knowing that they’re adopted? What
are you going to do to help that experience?”
582
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,400
Because that’s a form of trauma. Like, you
got abandoned, you lost somebody, you know?
583
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,720
[Kimberly] And it’s kind of weird how
adoptive parents act and they’re just like,
584
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:04,960
“Why are you acting like this? Like, what do you
have to be sad about? What’s your struggle? Like,
585
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,480
you got adopted. That’s great, right?
Like, that’s the end goal, right?”
586
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,680
[Courtney] “Be grateful.”
587
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,440
[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s just like,
I hate talking to my family about, like,
588
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,720
adoption, because they really just
throw it off and they’re just like,
589
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,280
“I don’t know what you got to complain about.
You have a nice house. You have, you know,
590
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,640
this and that.” And I’m like, “I acknowledge
that! I’m grateful!” Because, like, even now,
591
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,240
looking at it… I was talking to my mom the
other day. I’m like, “If something, you know,
592
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:34,000
happens or whatever, I get the house that I’m
living in and stuff like that.” That’s great!
593
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,520
[Kimberly] But, you know, even that, where there
are great things that come of being adopted and
594
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,840
having resources and a different family and
stuff, there’s always going to be the bad,
595
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,640
too. Like, my mom gave me up. She just
— she couldn’t take care of me. Every
596
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,000
sibling I had got put into foster care. Some
of my siblings have died and stuff like that,
597
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,760
and I have to wonder: is it because our mom
put us in foster care? And that’s a big thing,
598
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,260
too. Adopted kids have to think: would things
be different if I wasn’t in foster care?
599
00:49:01,260 --> 00:49:04,840
[Kimberly] The way we process trauma is
going to be different than other people,
600
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,960
because there’s a form of like… I don’t
want to say “survivors’ grief,” but, like,
601
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,920
it’s just a form of grief where it’s like,
“Life could have been different if I stayed
602
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,200
with my mom. My brother would be alive. My sister
would be alive, maybe. Or maybe I would be dead.
603
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:21,200
Who knows?” But it’s just like, you kind of
grieve for that thing that never happened.
604
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:26,600
[Kimberly] And people don’t… you know, when these
discussions of adoption happen, it’s just like,
605
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,000
“At least you got a family.” And it’s like,
no, because a family doesn’t understand
606
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,520
you. You know? You try to connect with your
biological family. I’m telling you — like,
607
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:43,600
I can’t even make a connection with my own
sibling. It’s hard, because everybody’s like,
608
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,700
“Oh, well, like, y’all older now. Y’all can
connect.” I don’t know them! [laughs] You know?
609
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:53,520
[Kimberly] And it’s like, that hurts. Because
I really want to, you know, reach out to my
610
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:58,280
brother. He’s also like me. We’re introverts,
so if we get together, it’s cool. We not like,
611
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,200
you know, “You haven’t talked to me in a
while,” or nothing like that. But like,
612
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,400
me and him are cool. And then I got another
brother. He’s in prison. He’s going to get out,
613
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,840
I think, this month. And I’m trying to, like,
do as much as I can for him, in the sense of,
614
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,800
you know, as much as I am allowed to do,
you know? Just, like, being there for him,
615
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,480
trying to understand, and be receptive
and try to help where I can and stuff.
616
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,040
[Kimberly] Because I look at it like
this: I got adopted. Me and my sister,
617
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,840
we got adopted. My brothers, they didn’t get
adopted. They were in the foster care system.
618
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,320
And even that’s different, you know? Because,
like, when you’re adopted, it’s a different
619
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,240
experience than being in the foster care all your
life. Because once you got to get cut off, like,
620
00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:45,160
you don’t get things, because you’re not related
to the family, you don’t have that in paper,
621
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:50,240
in writing. And so all of my brothers kind
of have different life paths. Some of them,
622
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:53,640
like, went down the wrong path; some
of them went down, like, okay paths,
623
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,320
and stuff like that. But I’m thinking,
like, what would be different if they
624
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,440
got adopted? Would it be different if we
stayed with our mom? Would it be worse?
625
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:07,680
[Kimberly] And so, you know, I definitely also
think a lot about the males in the adoption
626
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:13,880
system or the foster care system. Because I have
a friend right now. His name is Lucian. And he is,
627
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,480
you know — he just, like, aged out of
the system and stuff. So he was given a
628
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:23,000
place to stay for a while, but once you’re 18,
they kind of like, “You got to go,” you know?
629
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:23,760
[Courtney] “Bye.”
630
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,040
[Kimberly] Right? I’m like, [sarcastically]
“Wow, that’s useful,” you know? And so I’m
631
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,680
always trying to be there for him, even though,
you know, technically, when we were talking,
632
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,680
he was a minor and stuff. And, like, I remember
talking to my friends, and it would be like,
633
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,840
“Why are you talking to him? Like, he’s a kid.”
And I’m like, “To you, it looks like something
634
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,880
that’s not, but for me, it’s like, a person in
foster care is always going to be of my, like,
635
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,800
utmost priority, right?” Because I understand
what it looks like. My brothers went through that.
636
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,840
[Kimberly] I don’t want anybody, especially a
young boy, to feel like he doesn’t have anybody,
637
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,800
you know? Like, you could always talk to me
about your feelings. If you need to talk about
638
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,520
the foster care system, if you feel like you’re
struggling in life or whatever, I’m always there.
639
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,200
I can’t give you money. I can’t, you know, give
you the resources you need. But if you need to
640
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,320
talk to me, I feel like I’m always an open book
for, like, foster care and people in the adoption
641
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,480
system. Because, like, they kind of gravitate
towards me. So I’m like, I just want to be there
642
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:22,440
for somebody like I wish people were there for
my brothers and for us. I want to be that for
643
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:27,520
a lot of people. And he just didn’t understand.
I didn’t fault him because, like, you’ve never
644
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:32,000
been in the system, so it’s like, you wouldn’t
get it, but it’s okay. Like, it’s not, like,
645
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,600
a bad thing. It’s just, that’s just how it is,
sometimes. It kind of looks weird, but it’s like,
646
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,920
when you’ve seen people be abandoned like that,
you just want to bring abandoned stuff, you know?
647
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:49,840
[Courtney] Yeah. I… a very different situation,
but that is something — when you said that you
648
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,360
don’t know your siblings, and, like, you can
get to know them as an adult, but you didn’t
649
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:02,160
grow up in the same environment with them, that
really is something. Because I — when I was,
650
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:10,200
like, 10 or 11, like, double-digit child, like,
just about on the verge of of teenagedom, and,
651
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:17,120
like, my father had just gotten out of jail,
and he was, like, just about to move all the
652
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:22,400
way across the country and just about to up and
leave and I’d never see him again. But he, like,
653
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:28,920
sat me down and handed me two photos of two people
I’d never seen before, and he’s like, “This is
654
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,360
your older brother and your older sister. I never
told you that they exist, but they’ve known about
655
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,280
you since the day you were born. And they’ve
seen pictures of you, and they love you.” And,
656
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,040
I mean, he was also, like, very much lying, and
he’s like, “Your mother didn’t want you to know
657
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:48,080
about your siblings,” which was not true. That
was a lie. But, like, he told me this at this age,
658
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:54,000
and I was like, “What am I supposed to do with
this information? Like, I have siblings that I
659
00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:00,200
never knew about? What?” And, like, at that point,
he gave me their phone numbers, and we’d start,
660
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,300
like, talking on the phone, because they
also lived all the way across the country.
661
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:08,120
[Courtney] And for a while, when we were all
still kids, even though they were older than me,
662
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:12,760
like, we were hitting it off a little bit, and we
were getting to know each other. And I was like,
663
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,600
“Wow, I’m going to have a real, like, sibling
relationship with them.” But I haven’t spoken
664
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,560
to either of them in 15 years, [laughs] and I’ll
probably never speak to either of them ever again.
665
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,440
And it’s not because we have any bad blood
or anything. It’s just that we don’t actually
666
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,080
really know each other. And the only thing we
really have in common is the fact that, like,
667
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:37,040
our dad left all of us, [laughing] so. And there’s
only so much bonding you can do over that. Like,
668
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,080
there’s definitely a little bit at the
beginning where we can, like, you know,
669
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,000
vent to each other and be like, “Yeah,
what a piece of shit.” But then, like,
670
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,160
after that, it’s like, what else is
there? It’s kind of forced, you know?
671
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,960
[Kimberly] Yeah. Definitely. Like, my
siblings — love y’all, obviously. You know,
672
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,200
some of them I have things in common with.
We all like anime and stuff like that. Might
673
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,760
like the same music, who knows, you know?
Like, my brother who’s getting out soon,
674
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,920
I know he likes anime. So I used to send him
books and stuff, like different mangas and stuff.
675
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,120
Because I’m like, “Okay, whatever books you want,
like, just let me know and I’ll try to, you know,
676
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,880
send them in there, because I want you to have
something to do.” And, you know, when he gets out,
677
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,200
I plan to — you know, it might not happen, who
knows — but, like, I plan to take him to different
678
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,520
conventions and stuff with me and my friends and
stuff, just to keep him, like, on the right path,
679
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,360
hopefully, so he doesn’t feel like, you know,
“There’s nothing I could do outside, and,
680
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,400
you know, I gotta go back to the same thing,” and
stuff like that. Like, I want you to feel like,
681
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,400
you know, you got somebody who knows about
this stuff, who can get you in spaces and
682
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,280
stuff or whatever. Then just ask me, we could
go, we could hang out whenever you want.
683
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,480
[Kimberly] But I just feel like that’s something
that you need to have, even if it doesn’t bring
684
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,680
us closer. Or if it does, that’s great.
But it’s just like, when people ignore you,
685
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,120
especially fresh out of prison and stuff,
and they treat you like you’re an ex-con,
686
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:59,280
there’s nothing more to you and stuff, it
kind of goes into, like, the adopted thing
687
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,480
and stuff. Like, it’s just like, you feel a
different type of abandonment all over again,
688
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:08,400
because nobody really wants to put into you,
you know? And so, that kind of goes into,
689
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:13,280
like, my belief of, like, people in the foster
care system and the adoption system… I always
690
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,720
say — it sounds extremist, I guess? I don’t
know — but I always say that we should get,
691
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:20,680
like, free therapy for life. Like, I
don’t know. But, like, I think that —
692
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,040
[Courtney] Everyone should
have free therapy for life.
693
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:23,830
[Kimberly] Definitely.
694
00:56:23,830 --> 00:56:27,390
[Courtney] Let’s socialize therapy. [laughs]
695
00:56:27,390 --> 00:56:32,400
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Because I’m like, the
things you deal with — whether it’s work-related,
696
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,360
you know, your love life, just in general, I
feel like, definitely, people could definitely
697
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:41,880
benefit from therapy and stuff. And I just feel
like, you know — like, adopted kids get therapy
698
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,720
and stuff like that when you’re coming
up, but it’s usually to make sure that,
699
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:50,120
you know, nothing’s happening in the foster
care system or the adoptive home. And then,
700
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,520
once everything’s good, they’re like, “Oh,
yep, you don’t need anything anymore. Like,
701
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,540
you’re good.” And I’m just like,
we have to deal with abandonment!
702
00:56:56,540 --> 00:57:01,360
[Kimberly] And I think it gets worse when you’re an
adult because you’re like… all these feelings of,
703
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:07,720
like, inadequacy and, you know, what everybody
deals with, but it’s kind of like on 100. Because
704
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:12,240
it’s like, “My mom didn’t even want me. Like,
how can I be anything in this world or whatever,
705
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:16,520
where my parents didn’t want me? I can’t make no
connections with anybody.” You know, that’s where
706
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,560
I’m kind of at, where it’s like, I can’t even
connect with my siblings, but I want to go to art
707
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,880
school and connect with people and network. It’s
like, you can’t even connect with your family!
708
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,220
You know? And that kind of hurts. Because
it’s like, you think about stuff like that.
709
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:33,760
[Kimberly] And so I wish there was a way to
kind of reintroduce people into the world
710
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,440
after you’ve dealt with the foster care
system and like adoption and stuff. Like,
711
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:43,440
give them the benefits, like, understanding
how they feel. Because I see it a lot of times,
712
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,440
like on social media and stuff, people
are always like, “Yeah, this person is
713
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,640
like… they don’t care about anybody else,
they just acting a way where it’s, like,
714
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,480
not understanding of other people’s feelings
and stuff.” And I’m like, “I wonder if that’s
715
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,480
something that, like, adopted kids do because
we’ve been abandoned. So, like I’m going to
716
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:04,600
act in a way that an abandoned person will act,
you know? I’m gonna ghost you. I’m going to not
717
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,920
talk to people. I’m going to, you know, cling
to maybe one person and that’s it,” you know?
718
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,760
[Kimberly] So it’s like, you gotta learn
how to deal with those things, obviously,
719
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,560
but I feel like you need the resources. You
definitely need the resources when you can’t even
720
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,440
process those things growing up, and then you’re
an adult, and now you’re just like, “Yeah, I got
721
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,040
abandonment issues. I’m not going to do anything
about it, though.” Like, you know? So, yeah.
722
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:34,760
[Courtney] Do you personally consider the adoption
and foster care systems to be disabling systems?
723
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,600
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Like, they
don’t help, you know? And, like,
724
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:44,560
what you had said earlier about how they should
be put in place to help kids reunite with their
725
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,560
families and stuff. I think that that should
be the main goal. Because when you have all
726
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:54,360
these extra steps… you know, you don’t speak
about the adoption system highly; in society,
727
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,400
we don’t have any good representation. Every
time I hear about adoption, it’s literally like,
728
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:04,560
“You’re adopted!” on TV and it’s just like,
“What is…? What? Okay. So, what’s the plot?”
729
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:09,200
Are they going to be like, “I don’t need
to be biological. Like, I’m fine with being
730
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,760
adopted.” There is nothing. They’re just like,
“You’re adopted.” That’s an insult, you know?
731
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:18,360
[Kimberly] And so it’s like, I think that it
definitely is disabling because you need education
732
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:24,240
on it. Even outside of the adoptive parents
learning about stuff, we, just as a community
733
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:29,520
and as a society, just need to know about adopted
people and foster kids and stuff and just how
734
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:35,080
to just interact with them, how to make them not
feel like being adopted or foster care is, like,
735
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:40,200
shameful. Like, because my family, they always
ask me, like, “Why do you tell people you’re
736
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,080
adopted?” I’m like, “Why not? Like, what’s the…”
I don’t know. Like, I don’t see it as a bad thing.
737
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,680
I guess, like, I could see people weaponizing
it, but I don’t see it as a bad thing, you know?
738
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,480
[Kimberly] I just think that the
way that the system is set up,
739
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:58,600
it definitely doesn’t allow for you to grow
as a person. Like, it just kind of stunts you,
740
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,120
and then it just throws you into the world, like,
the cold world and stuff, and it doesn’t — like,
741
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:08,760
obviously, you shouldn’t be coddled and stuff, but
just the way that they interact with foster kids
742
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:14,000
and adopted kids and just kind of act like your
existence doesn’t matter after a certain point,
743
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,600
you know, after your safety or
whatever is kind of solidified,
744
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,800
like, they don’t consider the emotional and
mental harm that the foster care system can
745
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,340
pose and stuff. And that’s where it kind
of becomes disabling, I would say, yeah.
746
01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:35,960
[Courtney] Yeah. And it really seems to, like
— although it’s presented to be a very, like,
747
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,400
life-saving thing, something that’s
about safety, at the end of the day,
748
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:47,880
a lot of it to me just seems to be about
control. Because once a kid turns 18, well,
749
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:52,640
you can’t legally control them anymore,
so they’re on their own. But they still
750
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:59,320
might need help and support. There are lots of
kids who stay in the home through college or
751
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,520
even if they don’t go to college, they’ll
stay in the home for a few more years. So
752
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:08,440
you really are kicking someone out in just,
like, a really pivotal time in their life,
753
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,800
where a lot of support normally is needed
because you’re in a very transitional period.
754
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,560
[Courtney] But I was thinking of this
earlier, too, when you, you know,
755
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:22,880
likened adoption to slavery in the sense of,
like, paying money and acquiring a child. I
756
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:27,200
think that that’s definitely an issue
for adoptive parents, but it’s kind of
757
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:34,840
an issue for the way people view parenthood as a
whole. Because there are definitely people who,
758
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:43,560
even with their own biological children, who just
want and need control over them. And I consider
759
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:49,880
children in general to be, like, an oppressed
class of people, and sometimes people will,
760
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,820
like, squint at me when I say that and
be like, “No, everyone’s been a kid.”
761
01:01:53,820 --> 01:01:59,240
[Courtney] It’s like, but no, actually, think of
it. Kids do not have as much autonomy as they
762
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:05,360
usually deserve. And obviously, depending
on age, depending on, you know, mentality,
763
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:11,440
there are certain things that adults are going
to need to help and make the decisions for. But
764
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:17,240
it’s less of a partnership and “I’m partnering
with you to do what’s in your best interest,”
765
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:22,040
and more like, “I’m telling you what’s in your
best interest.” And, I mean, people even use,
766
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:27,080
like, “You’re childish” as an insult. And I always
say, like, “Don’t say that, first of all, ever,
767
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:32,640
but don’t say it around kids.” Like, kids
hear when adults say to each other, like,
768
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,880
“You’re acting like a child. You’re acting like
a kid.” And it’s like, what’s a kid supposed to
769
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,900
do with that? They can’t control their age.
[laughs] So much of it is about control.
770
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:47,840
[Courtney] And I think so much of that “I
control my child” mindset is so much about
771
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:54,760
what the queer community is fighting for when
it comes to things like gender-affirming care,
772
01:02:54,760 --> 01:03:01,760
when it comes to things like being able to
use a child’s correct pronouns in schools,
773
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,720
and things. Because all of the conservative
parents that are trying to, you know,
774
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:13,920
ban the books and “My child is not going to be
brainwashed or transed” or, you know, all those
775
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:18,600
horrible things they say. It’s about control.
They want to control not only their own kids,
776
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,580
but all the kids [laughing] around their
kids and all the kids in the entire system.
777
01:03:23,580 --> 01:03:29,560
[Courtney] And so when we look at
parenting as controlling another human,
778
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,000
there are going to be those issues
that are just going to get even more
779
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:40,040
exaggerated in systems like foster care and
adoption, when a child is even more at risk.
780
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,200
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And, yeah,
I see a lot of people — again,
781
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:48,600
on social media — that are always talking
about how, like, “Oh, it’s my child,
782
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,470
I can do whatever I want with them,” and stuff,
and like they are a possession. And I’m like —
783
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:54,150
[Courtney] “Parents’ rights!” [laughs]
784
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:58,520
[Kimberly] Yeah, I just, you know, okay, but
it sounds like you’re going to like mentally
785
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:04,200
mess up your child in some way. Because just
the brain, like, the mentality that you have,
786
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:08,720
is already kind of messed up, where it’s
like, “I can do whatever I want.” And,
787
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:14,080
like, the implications even of that saying
in itself just brings about so many different
788
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,400
thoughts. Like, okay, you can abuse your child
— like, physically, sexually, whatever? Like,
789
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,960
don’t say that! You know? Like, it’s not about
control; it’s about being able to kind of guide
790
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:29,720
your children in a way that makes them happy, but
then also, you know, not makes the parent happy,
791
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,200
but just kind of makes them happy because
their kid is happy, I would say. Like,
792
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:38,900
you should be worrying about your child’s
ultimate end goal of being happy, their happiness.
793
01:04:38,900 --> 01:04:43,160
[Kimberly] And that reminds me of being, like,
rehabilitated into you know, the world after being
794
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:48,680
in the foster care system, because, like, I just
think that they throw us into the world. But then
795
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:54,760
it’s also like, if we don’t have those spaces to
be able to tell how we feel and stuff like that,
796
01:04:54,760 --> 01:05:00,440
we’re going to ultimately, like I said before,
hurt people and just kind of throw our trauma on
797
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:05,640
them. And that’s kind of how… The foster
care system kind of acts as that parent,
798
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:09,080
where it’s like, “You’re just going to do what
I say. You’re going to do it how I say. And
799
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,000
then you’re going to be okay with it.” You know?
“You’re going to be happy at the end of the day.”
800
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,440
[Kimberly] Like, it’s kind of like the
way parents act with queer kids. Like,
801
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,000
“You’re going to be straight because I said you’re
going to be straight, and you’re going to be okay,
802
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:24,360
because you realize that I’m the parent and I
control the situation, so whatever I say kind
803
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,480
of goes,” or whatever. You know? That’s kind
of how the foster care system is. It’s like,
804
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,280
“You’re going to be okay. You’re going to be
just fine. You’re not going to act like a person
805
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,840
who just got abandoned. You’re not going to act
like a person who’s been on their own and stuff
806
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,400
and dealing with their own emotions and stuff.
We’re going to ignore that mental health stuff,
807
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,280
the disabilities and stuff you might have because
of this. Like, you’re just going to be okay,”
808
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:51,680
you know? [laughs] So, like, it definitely
links up and has very similar traits to even,
809
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,280
you know, biological people and how
they, you know, interact with their kids.
810
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:00,760
[Kimberly] And it’s kind of funny because, yeah,
DCFS and the adoption and foster care system,
811
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,360
basically are a parent, you know?
They are, like you said earlier,
812
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,440
centered around the parents. It’s not about
the kids. It’s not about the kids’ consent,
813
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:13,680
what they want. I see a lot of kids wanting to
go back home. I see a lot of kids, you know,
814
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:18,680
dealing with things and stuff like that. And, you
know, they just want to sugarcoat everything and
815
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,880
just kind of make it easier for the parents. So,
it’s like, you know, “This kid is acting up or
816
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:28,720
whatever. Okay, we’ll give them therapy so that
they stop acting up for you.” Like I said earlier,
817
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:33,160
it’s like slavery. It’s like, “Oh, your slave is
acting up or whatever. We’ll just whip them on the
818
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,440
side and stuff like that and then bring them back.
They’ll be fine,” you know? And it’s just like,
819
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,560
it’s not how you deal with these things,
because the therapy is not for the kids,
820
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:47,040
it’s for the kids’ behavior in the face of the
parent, and it’s just… It’s so much stuff to it.
821
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:52,640
[Kimberly] And you know, that’s why I, like, really
am concerned for the kids nowadays especially,
822
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:57,200
you know? Me and my mom, we fostered
some kids — a lot of different kids.
823
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,160
All of these kids have different stories,
and they have different behavioral traits,
824
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,520
and the reason they act a certain way
gonna be different all across the board,
825
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,720
right? And two stories that I can remember. We
had two boys and stuff, and they were great,
826
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,520
you know? They come into the house,
and I always ask myself, I’m like,
827
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,760
“How are they feeling?” You know? Like, you know,
they just going into a new environment, they
828
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:22,580
packed up their stuff and now they’re in somebody
else’s house — like, how does that feel, you know?
829
01:07:22,580 --> 01:07:27,040
[Kimberly] Even though I know how it feels
a little. One thing I noticed about foster
830
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,640
kids and adopted kids: we are happy to just go
into somebody’s house randomly. We’re just like,
831
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:37,000
“Wow! A new place!” You know? And then we don’t —
you know, ’cause we’re kids, we don’t think about,
832
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,600
like, the implications of what’s about
to happen or whatever. It’s just like,
833
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,080
“I’m in a new place, cool! I get a room!
I get whatever and stuff,” you know?
834
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:49,240
[Kimberly] And so, like, I always worry about the
kids. And I’m like, I want to do what I do for,
835
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:53,880
like, my older friends, where it’s like, “You are
feeling bad. If you want to go home, voice that,
836
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:59,200
you know? Be receptive. Tell me. Like, I get it.
I can’t really do much, but I can affirm you in
837
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:04,000
that sense of, like, I understand how it feels
to you know, maybe feel a certain way.” But,
838
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:08,080
like, you know, I want to be able to say, like,
“You can say that here,” you know? Not like,
839
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,640
with a lot of adoptive parents, they
get hurt when you say things like,
840
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,030
“Oh, I want my mother, I want, you
know, da da da.” They’re just like —
841
01:08:15,030 --> 01:08:16,790
[Courtney] “Am I not good enough?” [laughs]
842
01:08:16,790 --> 01:08:20,640
[Kimberly] Exactly. It’s about them!
It’s about them and their feelings
843
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,720
at the end of the day. I remember I had
voiced that I wanted to, like, you know,
844
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:28,800
know about my dad and my mom and stuff like that,
and my family literally acted like that and I was,
845
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:34,400
like, I was taken aback. I was like, “I don’t…
Okay, I’ll just let it go, you know? Like,
846
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:39,200
I won’t ask about it anymore.” Because they just
felt so offended and mad. And I was just like,
847
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,520
it gives you that mentality of, like, “Don’t
bring that up. Don’t do that to me. Don’t
848
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:48,620
hurt me.” And it’s like, you don’t think I’m
hurting that I just don’t know my own family?
849
01:08:48,620 --> 01:08:52,440
[Kimberly] And so, like, for me, obviously,
I want to try to adopt when I, you know,
850
01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:56,800
have kids and stuff like that, because I
feel that connection: I know what it’s like,
851
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,400
I know what to do, and I know what not to
do in certain situations. So I will be like,
852
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,040
you know, “If you want to talk to your
family or whatever, just let me know,
853
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,640
I’ll get that started for you. You don’t have
to go look for them on your own. You can just
854
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:13,400
let me know. I got you.” You know? Whereas
a person who wasn’t adopted are just like,
855
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,120
“You don’t need to do that.” And it’s like,
it’s so jarring, I’m telling you. Like,
856
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,320
the way they just react to that, it’s, like, a
trauma that you don’t need. Like, why are you
857
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:25,860
being so mean to me about this thing that I had
no control over, you know? It’s so heartbreaking.
858
01:09:25,860 --> 01:09:32,120
[Kimberly] And so that’s why, with the boys, it
hurt me because their mom was like, you know… And,
859
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:36,280
keep in mind, these boys are, like, maybe like
five and eight or whatever. And she was like,
860
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,480
“Yeah, I’m not ready to have no kids,” and
stuff like that. And I’m like, “I get that,”
861
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:44,720
but at the same time, that hurt me, because,
like, you’re hurting your kids. And maybe,
862
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,200
like, if it was a situation where it was,
like, drugs and stuff like that, or, like,
863
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:52,360
abuse in the house, I get that; it’s kind of out
of your control. But to just give your children
864
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:56,720
up and to have that as the reason really hurt
me. Because I’m like, “These boys are going to
865
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,360
have to deal with that for the rest of their life.
Like, they’re going to recognize, like, ‘Oh, yeah,
866
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:06,160
I was kind of in foster care for a second there.
Why was I in foster care?’” And then, you know,
867
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,440
you have these conversations with people around
you and they’re like, “Yeah, your mama didn’t
868
01:10:09,440 --> 01:10:13,400
want you. Like, she just said she didn’t want
no kids,” or, like, whatever. And it’s like,
869
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:17,960
I hate for to think that they have to navigate
life even with that thought, and they hear it. I
870
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:22,360
feel like no child should have to feel any
type of abandonment. I feel like that’s the
871
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:28,420
worst thing to experience. Like, that’s your first
real trauma, and at such a young age. It’s unfair.
872
01:10:28,420 --> 01:10:32,960
[Kimberly] And then the other story was
of a little girl that we had took care
873
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:38,000
of. And she had a phone, which is
weird in the foster care system,
874
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,616
because they usually take any kind of
connection you can have with your family.
875
01:10:42,616 --> 01:10:42,630
[Courtney] Ugh.
876
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:47,040
[Kimberly] And just so that — you know. Which
is like, I get it, why you do have that,
877
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:51,600
but then also I don’t. She also had, like,
medical issues and stuff, so I kind of get it,
878
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,800
but I kind of don’t. And so, like, her grandma
would kind of coach her to act a certain way
879
01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:00,800
with us and stuff. And, like, she would just act,
you know, really, really bad. And it got so bad,
880
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,320
my mom had to take her up to the offices and
stuff like that. She couldn’t take care of
881
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:09,200
her and stuff. ‘Cause, like, she could have
somebody in her ear telling her how to act,
882
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,520
but then also acting like, “Oh, I’m the
one trying to calm her down. I’m trying
883
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,620
to calm her.” It’s so many different things
in the foster care system. And it’s so bad.
884
01:11:16,620 --> 01:11:19,360
[Kimberly] I was just, like, hurting
for her. Because it’s like, you know,
885
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,960
you don’t even get to control your own
behavior, you know? She’s telling you,
886
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:27,640
“Oh, act this way so that they can bring you back
to me,” and stuff. And it’s like, you’re leading
887
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:33,040
this child astray for what? She’s already dealing
with probably a lot. She has medical issues and
888
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,000
stuff like that. She has to take her medicine
every day. She doesn’t understand the implications
889
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:41,400
that if she doesn’t take her medicine, something
bad can happen. And you’re, you know, just kind of
890
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:47,680
abusing her even more. And it’s like, it really
is a horrible system, with horrible people.
891
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,720
[Kimberly] And that’s why I think we need more
people who understand it, I guess, you know,
892
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:58,120
and just can extend themselves. Because even with,
like, the social workers and stuff, they only do
893
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:01,920
it for a paycheck. You could tell, because,
like, they don’t really care about the kids,
894
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:06,240
you know? They aren’t concerned with… They’re
like, “Oh, being a social worker is, like,
895
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:09,980
one of the highest-paying jobs.” I’m like, “So
we don’t care about the kids, though?” [laughs]
896
01:12:09,980 --> 01:12:17,040
[Courtney] Oof. Yeah. And I feel like the average
person just knows so little about this system.
897
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:23,800
They really do. And… so, when I was, like, a
kid — like, a young, young kid… I have always,
898
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:29,760
my entire life, been about experiences. I want
to have as many different, unique experiences
899
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:35,520
as possible, and that’s always been, like,
a core value of mine. So even as a kid,
900
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:41,400
I knew that I liked other kids, and for most
of my life, I was certain that I was going to
901
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:48,880
be a mother. And so as, like, a young child,
I was like, “Well, I want the experience of
902
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:53,680
having a biological child, and then I also
want the experience of adopting a child,
903
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,800
so I’ll just have two children so I can have
both experiences”. And that was obviously,
904
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,200
like, six-year-old Courtney brain,
[laughing] so I didn’t know anything
905
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:04,760
about the system at that time. I was just
like, “Yes, let me collect experiences.”
906
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:10,520
[Courtney] But then, when I was, like… I
think I was 12, I was pretty young the
907
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:17,840
first time a doctor told me that it would be
very difficult for me to have a biological
908
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:24,920
child because of my — they didn’t have the
words Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome at the time,
909
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:30,000
but they were telling me about this hypermobility,
how I’d have a very high-risk pregnancy,
910
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,760
and that that’s something I should always keep in
the back of my mind. So that, like, at the time,
911
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:39,560
scared me when I wanted a biological child.
And so I was like, “Well, I did always say
912
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,240
I wanted to adopt a child too.” So, I had in
the back of my head, like, “I’ll be just fine.
913
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,520
Even if I can’t have a kid, like, I will be
just fine, I’ll still be able to be a mom.”
914
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,640
[Courtney] And, like, when Royce and I first
met, we were still talking about, like, “Yeah,
915
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:57,640
we’ll probably, you know, have kids at some point.
We’re just not in a hurry.” And now it’s less
916
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:04,560
certain. We very well may never, and that would be
fine. But it started striking me where I was like,
917
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:08,400
“If I ever have a child, it’s not going to be
the biological way,” because I would not only
918
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:17,160
put me in danger, but my child, and also, I’m Ace
and I don’t want to do that. [laughs] And for a
919
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,680
while I was like, “Well, it would just be like a
household chore, if I had to.” But then I hear all
920
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:26,720
these stories of even allosexual people that are
like, “When we were trying to conceive, we were,
921
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:33,960
like, on a tight schedule. We had to, you know,
try to conceive a child at X, Y, and Z time and as
922
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:40,680
often as possible during —” And I was like, “Ugh,
that sounds terrible! I don’t want to do that!”
923
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:45,760
[Courtney] So, like, in the back of my head, I
was like, “You know what? Adoption is going to
924
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:51,640
be the only option for us if that is in the
cards.” And it occurred to me — like, I’ve
925
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:56,760
started meeting friends who have been adopted, who
have been in the foster care system. I know how
926
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:02,480
traumatized a lot of them are from that system.
I need to learn more about the system itself if
927
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:07,820
I’m ever even going to make an educated decision
about whether or not this would ever be for us.
928
01:15:07,820 --> 01:15:11,440
[Courtney] And then I’d start seeing
very flippant — especially like right
929
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:17,080
before Roe vs Wade got overturned, we’d still
have, you know, very religious, very, like,
930
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:23,280
anti-abortion people occasionally make a post
on Facebook that would just blanketly be like,
931
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:28,880
“Please, if anyone out there is considering
aborting your child, please don’t do it. I will
932
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:35,840
adopt your child, don’t you worry!” And, like,
you’ve never adopted a child before. You already,
933
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:40,480
like, have your own kid. And sure, maybe you have
the financial means to take on another kid. But
934
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:46,200
you’re just — you don’t really mean that. [laughs]
I think even if you think you mean it, you don’t.
935
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:52,260
Like, and those things really made me realize how
flippantly people tend to think about adoption.
936
01:15:52,260 --> 01:15:58,880
[Courtney] And then I started looking at, you know,
activists who have openly talked about adoption.
937
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:05,640
One that comes to mind is actually Lydia X.Z.
Brown, who — they are Ace and Asian, but they’re
938
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:11,320
a transracial adoptee, so they’ve talked about the
additional trauma on top of that. And, like, just
939
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:17,400
hearing those stories, it’s like, man, I… like, I
don’t know if we are ever going to foster or adopt
940
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:22,560
or anything like that, but I care very deeply
about learning more about this system and these
941
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:29,320
firsthand experiences because it’s — wow, the
way people talk about it. And sometimes there is,
942
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:34,520
like, a very white saviorism about it too. Like, I
think we’ve all heard the horror stories of, like,
943
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:41,360
a white Christian family that’s like, “I adopted
a child of color from a developing country,
944
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:46,560
and I saved them, and I brought them to
America.” It’s like, that’s colonialism.
945
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,200
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And see,
that’s the thing. I’m like,
946
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,920
when people have those posts and stuff like
that, I’m always looking at it, I’m like,
947
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:59,000
“You really think you did something. Like,
you really thought that was okay?” And to
948
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:03,160
other people who aren’t in the foster care
system, in the adoption spaces, they’re like,
949
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:07,480
“Oh my God, that’s so nice! Like, that’s so
right!” And I’m like, “They’re not, really.”
950
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:11,680
[Kimberly] Because you’re trying to, first of
all, take autonomy from somebody. And, like,
951
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,960
if they choose to do what they choose to do, then
that’s fine, right? And, like you were saying
952
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:21,400
about, like, giving birth and pregnancy and stuff,
I have a fear of pregnancy. I am literally — like,
953
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,240
my family has — like, I don’t think they intended
to, but I literally have a fear of pregnancy. I
954
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:30,960
would never. Like, I couldn’t do it. You know?
I have a fear of, like, surgery, too, and stuff,
955
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:36,760
and so it’s like, it wouldn’t be an option for
me, you know? Like, my partner wants kids, like,
956
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,533
biologically, and I’m just like, “Can’t we
just adopt?” Like you know what I’m saying?
957
01:17:40,533 --> 01:17:40,550
[Courtney laughs]
958
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:46,120
[Kimberly] Like, I’m gonna obviously be
attached to the adopted kids, where,
959
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:50,720
you know, it’s going to be cool on both ends, but
they really want, like, a biological kid. I think
960
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:55,120
a lot of people do. And it’s like… I don’t
know. Like, even the language around, like,
961
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:59,000
how people talk about having a biological
kid and, like, “Oh, I can’t adopt, I need
962
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,960
a biological kid. Like, I’m gonna be connected
to the kid.” I’m like, “It’s a kid! You should
963
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:08,440
just be connected to them regardless,” you know?
It’s just such a weird, like, space, you know?
964
01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:13,720
[Kimberly] And then going into the topic of,
like, the transracial families and stuff. I
965
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,640
obviously can’t relate. And that’s what I love
about, like, the adoption system and foster care,
966
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:22,240
because it’s so vast, and there’s so
many different types of people here
967
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:27,640
and different experiences, and, like, some
good, some great, some horrible. You know?
968
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:34,080
I have two people that I know of that are in
the transracial adoption spectrum. My friend
969
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:39,640
Ben — and it’s so crazy how things kind of line
up. His parents, one of his parents, his mom,
970
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:44,560
is, like, Russian, I believe, and then his dad is
of, like, Israeli roots and stuff. So right now,
971
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:50,296
he is dealing with, like, his cousins being
in Israel and the war and stuff like that.
972
01:18:50,296 --> 01:18:50,310
[Courtney] Oof.
973
01:18:50,310 --> 01:18:54,480
[Kimberly] And I didn’t even think about that. I’m
like, you know, he’s just a Black kid that got
974
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:58,440
adopted, in my mind, like, by white people, and
I’m just like, it’s just that simple. It’s like,
975
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:02,960
no. It’s like, his family is rooted with
even the war that’s happening now and,
976
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:06,560
like, the issues that are happening now. And
just because he’s Black doesn’t mean that it
977
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,280
doesn’t affect him any less, you know?
Because that’s his family. So I’m like,
978
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,440
that’s really good, because he’s teaching
me about this stuff, and I didn’t know.
979
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:16,960
[Kimberly] Because, like, I never, you know
— every other friend that I have is like,
980
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,280
“It’s just complicated.”
And he’s like, “No,” like,
981
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:24,040
“I got the low down. I know about it.” So I’m,
like, very grateful for him and his experience,
982
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:27,560
and I’m definitely always open to
listening to him about his background
983
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,440
and his family’s background and stuff, which
is definitely interesting to listen about.
984
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:37,120
[Kimberly] And then my other friend… This is more
on the foster parent side, I guess, because the
985
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:42,200
child is a baby. She’s fostering a baby. She’s
Asian. And so I’m like, “That’s actually pretty
986
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:46,600
cool, because I’ve never seen a Black family
adopt an Asian baby!” I’ve never — as far as
987
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:52,040
I know. You know? It’s usually always, like, white
person adopts Black child out of white saviorism,
988
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:55,800
like you said. So I was like, “That’s really
nice,” you know. I’m like, you know, her mom is
989
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,600
dealing with certain, like, issues and stuff, and
they really want to adopt her. But, you know, I’m,
990
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:04,760
like, hoping they do, because she’s a perfect
addition to the family. Everybody loves her,
991
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:10,120
and they treat her, you know, just like one of
theirs. They deal with a lot of foster care kids
992
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:14,680
and stuff like that, and they deal with kids with
disabilities as well. So I’m like, “You know,
993
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,960
I think it’s a little — it’s a good, you know,
family for her to grow up in,” and stuff.
994
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:23,160
[Kimberly] But I do wonder, like, how
it’s going to affect her, you know? Like,
995
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:27,480
being Asian in a Black family definitely would
be like, “Where’s my roots?” you know? And,
996
01:20:27,480 --> 01:20:32,560
like, even the cultural impact of the Black
culture and stuff, she’s going to, you know,
997
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:38,200
indulge in culture, the food and stuff, and she’s
probably going to feel like, “I kind of lost out
998
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:43,440
on knowing about my Asian roots,” and stuff.
And I just really do hope that they are open
999
01:20:43,440 --> 01:20:48,060
and receptive to, like, let her, you know, explore
that if she does want to explore that, you know?
1000
01:20:48,060 --> 01:20:51,200
[Kimberly] Like, the transracial…
Like, I can’t speak on it — like,
1001
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:55,080
if it’s good or if it’s bad. But
I do think that it has its perks,
1002
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,600
but then also probably does have its downfalls,
and that’s something that we definitely need to
1003
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:04,800
talk about, especially because now, people
think transracial is, like, when you’re one
1004
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:10,447
race and you want to… It’s like what we talked
about earlier, about how… the colloquialism.
1005
01:21:10,447 --> 01:21:10,470
[Courtney] Mhm. [laughs]
1006
01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:12,400
[Kimberly] They think transracial is, like, “Oh,
1007
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:16,983
I’m Black, but now I’m Asian.” It’s
like, no! It was a word for adoption.
1008
01:21:16,983 --> 01:21:17,880
[Courtney] Rachel Dolezal. [laughs]
1009
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:22,080
[Kimberly] Right! Exactly. And, like,
it was a word for adopted people,
1010
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,240
and then y’all just kind of threw us out
the window and was like, “No, this is about
1011
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,960
trans people and about race.” And I’m like,
“No, it was about Black kids getting adopted
1012
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,640
by white families, Asian kids getting adopted
by Hispanic families,” like, stuff like that,
1013
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:39,000
which we don’t have any topics about. Nobody
talks about it, no media coverage, you know? And
1014
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:43,860
I’m just like, it definitely is something that we
definitely all need to like, tune into, you know?
1015
01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:48,400
[Courtney] Yeah! And there’s going to be a spectrum
of how positive or negative that experience can be
1016
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:53,640
on a case-to-case basis. But if you, like,
zoom out and just look at it as a whole,
1017
01:21:53,640 --> 01:22:00,000
obviously, there is the very, like,
white colonial mindset that I think
1018
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:05,760
a lot of people have and that they apply to
their idea of what adoption looks like and
1019
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:12,300
what it is and how it’s… They probably see it in
rose-colored glasses far more than is warranted.
1020
01:22:12,300 --> 01:22:19,360
[Courtney] But you also have the fact of, like,
all of these are people, individually, and people
1021
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:26,560
are always going to have their own biases. And,
like, you could have a foster parent who just is
1022
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:34,680
racist [laughs]. And it’s not 100% of the time
going to be negative if there is a transracial
1023
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:40,000
adoptee situation. Sometimes, depending on a
case-to-case basis, it might be unavoidable.
1024
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:46,040
But if the parents adopting in that situation
aren’t at least educated on the basics of racism,
1025
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:52,600
if they aren’t equipped to talk to the kid
about race, if they aren’t willing to let
1026
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:58,600
that kid explore their roots and their heritage
that they may feel has been taken away from them,
1027
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:03,820
if they aren’t willing to learn about those
things and work through it, that can be a problem.
1028
01:23:03,820 --> 01:23:10,720
[Courtney] And in situations of fostering, there
can also be — maybe the biological parents are
1029
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:15,960
still in the picture and the goal is to get them
back to their parents. They’re also going to be
1030
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:21,560
people who are like, “Well, what’s the reason?
Is it addiction? Is it mental health?” And then
1031
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:26,880
are there people who are just going to, like, look
down on poor people? Like, if it’s a situation of
1032
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:31,240
poverty, are they going to be like, “Well, I know
best for this child than their biological parent”?
1033
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:35,960
Are they going to be blaming the parent for not
being a good enough parent? Are they going to be
1034
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:41,040
putting a bug in the ear of that child that, like,
“I know better than your actual parents”? Like,
1035
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:45,160
or even ableism, if it’s a mental health issue
that hopefully you can work towards with the
1036
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:50,120
parent and then they’ll get to a stable enough
place to be able to parent, it’s like, there are
1037
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:55,510
so many ableist people just in general, and some
of them are bound to be foster parents! [laughs]
1038
01:23:55,510 --> 01:24:00,920
[Courtney] So I think when you were talking about,
like, classes earlier, it’s like, I haven’t
1039
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:08,080
been in one of these classes, but I assume they
don’t take a very intersectional lens on a broad
1040
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:14,320
spectrum of issues like that that could arise,
depending on what child gets put in your care.
1041
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:18,080
[Kimberly] Exactly. And it’s — I’m not
sure if they update it or anything,
1042
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:22,760
but it’s just like… I don’t know. The
way that people can’t even do the basics,
1043
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:27,320
like we said earlier, about not making your kid
feel like crap about wanting to reach out about
1044
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:31,840
their parents. I’m like, “These classes must be
horrible,” you know? Maybe I should update that,
1045
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:39,600
you know? It is very concerning. Because, like
we said, it’s just so many different cases. And
1046
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:44,120
people just kind of are like, “Oh, everything’s
going to be okay. Everything’s going to be
1047
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:49,000
perfect for this kid. They’re going to be very
stable. They’re not going to have any problems,
1048
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,160
because they’re being adopted, and they’re not
in their drug addict mother’s care,” and stuff.
1049
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:55,760
[Kimberly] And that’s how I always
tell my family. I’m like, “Look,
1050
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,960
great things happen. I’m in a perfect place. I get
whatever I want. I can ask anything and you give
1051
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:06,520
it to me.” But the way I communicate with people,
the way I make friends, the way I have partners
1052
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:12,120
is affected through me being adopted, and that’s
something you cannot, like, just ignore. Because,
1053
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,320
you know, those things are going to plague
you for, like, the rest of your life,
1054
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:21,000
you know? And you don’t want to be a burden to
people more than you already feel like you are,
1055
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:28,940
especially being in the adoptive system, and these
things are not set up for us in mind, you know?
1056
01:25:28,940 --> 01:25:38,800
[Courtney] So, I do definitely want to make
sure that we talk about your webcomic. So this
1057
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:46,600
came on my radar because of a video that you
posted to YouTube not too terribly long ago:
1058
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:52,280
“The token Black Asexual; the Asexual departure,”
or something like that. Was that the title?
1059
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:53,500
[Kimberly] Yes, it was.
1060
01:25:53,500 --> 01:25:58,920
[Courtney] I found that video very fascinating.
And it’s you doing artwork, which, I love seeing
1061
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:03,400
other artists’ work, because your art form
is way different than any art form that I
1062
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:07,600
have ever practiced, so I always love seeing
the process. But it was just you talking and
1063
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:13,120
thinking and ruminating through thoughts about
the Ace community and where we’ve been and where
1064
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:18,640
you want to go. And I’d love to just hear in
your own words, and I’d love for you to explain
1065
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:25,400
to the audience, what your thoughts are in that
video and why… Well, just everything about your
1066
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:31,280
comic and this new project and what it means to
you, what the themes are. Let’s have all of it.
1067
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:35,960
[Kimberly] Definitely. So, basically I’ve been
working on this little comic called Trauma.
1068
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:40,440
It’s actually a small part of a bigger comic
that I was going to do, but I was like — I’m
1069
01:26:40,440 --> 01:26:44,640
very hard on myself. I’m like, “I need to go
to art school first.” I gotta go to art school,
1070
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,720
and then I can make the big comic. But for now, I
just want to do, like, a little three-panel comic,
1071
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:53,240
maybe four-panel, and then, just, like, you
know, kind of introduce the character Trauma.
1072
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:58,280
[Kimberly] So, Trauma is a character that I made.
Kind of got off easy by just naming her “Trauma.”
1073
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:03,520
[laughs] I was like, “What’s her name? She doesn’t
know. Cool. Trauma,” you know? But she’s, like,
1074
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:10,840
a very important character to me, because she kind
of offset the idea of basically where I want to go
1075
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:16,640
with a lot of my art, and that’s just including
characters that are basically everything that
1076
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,920
I’ve dealt with, you know? Like, okay, adoption.
Cool, we could talk about that because all the
1077
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:25,320
characters are adopted, or, like, a good majority
are adopted. We could talk about being queer, or,
1078
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:30,480
like, AroAce, because she’s both Aro
and Ace. And so I’m like, I wanted to,
1079
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:35,720
you know, talk about that, but like, I want it
to just be not always in the background. Like,
1080
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:40,160
there will be comics where she’s talking about
being Ace or adopted or, you know, mental health
1081
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:45,000
and stuff. But just, like, for now, I wanted
to be, like, a goofy little comic. Because,
1082
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:49,640
you know, just to get to know her, to know
her power set and all that stuff, and just
1083
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:54,960
little things about her before I kind of get into
the bigger comic with all the other characters.
1084
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,760
[Kimberly] So, like, for her she was in the
foster care system. I think she got it like
1085
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:05,000
the worst. Because she basically has experienced
all, like, kind of the negative parts of the
1086
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:09,040
adoption system and stuff. Like, anything
bad that you can imagine happening in the
1087
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,920
foster care system should probably happened to
her. Like, it just… you know? But she’s, like,
1088
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:17,800
a kind of chipper child. Like, she’s kind of happy
for somebody who’s been going through a lot of
1089
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:22,640
trauma and stuff like that. And then she’s also
very powerful because of, like, the things that
1090
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,960
happen kind of translated into her power set. So
she can, like, manipulate people, control them,
1091
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:35,640
through mental things, and, like, she can control
their emotions. And it’s so many things in terms
1092
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:40,660
of, like, her powers being connected to her
being, you know, traumatized and stuff like that.
1093
01:28:40,660 --> 01:28:46,320
[Kimberly] And in the main comic, basically,
she has these two, like, technically friends,
1094
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:51,160
but they kind of come off as her parents, because
they’re kind of — I don’t know how to explain it.
1095
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:56,280
I’m not sure about the ages yet. But they kind of
are in a queerplatonic relationship where they’re,
1096
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:00,920
like, not together but they just — they kind of
appear as a couple, but they’re not a couple. And,
1097
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,440
like, they’re just very close, and so they
kind of come off as, like, a little family,
1098
01:29:04,440 --> 01:29:09,320
you know? Like, the two parents and then a
kid, but it’s just not a traditional family,
1099
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:15,400
you know? So that’s really where I am with
the Trauma comics, and just trying to get her
1100
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,680
started and jumpstarted in my mind and kind of
figuring out where I want to put her and stuff.
1101
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:25,680
[Kimberly] And then, in terms of the video
that I had made, that was definitely
1102
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:29,880
something I was thinking about. Because I
noticed that when I try to go into, like,
1103
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,760
the Twitter space and like just other spaces and
stuff, like, it was always hard for me to kind
1104
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:39,840
of introduce these characters. Because first of
all, I always felt like I had to make everything
1105
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:44,960
about Asexuality and stuff like that, and I
couldn’t really diverge into anything else,
1106
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:49,500
because people only know me for, like, being Ace
and Black. And it just kind of felt defeating.
1107
01:29:49,500 --> 01:29:54,920
[Kimberly] Because, you know, me going to school
is for, you know, learning about comics and,
1108
01:29:54,920 --> 01:30:00,720
you know, doing different characters that I like
and stories that I can follow. And I feel like
1109
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:06,160
during that time, it really made me question
a lot of things. Because I’m like, “Okay,
1110
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:09,880
that’s what I’m known for, right? I don’t want to
be just known for that. I want to be an artist,
1111
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:13,840
I want to be a writer, I want to be this.”
I think that people should be more than what
1112
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:18,200
people’s first impression of them is and stuff.
So I think that that’s something that we as a
1113
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:24,040
community need to kind of dive deep into. Like,
if Aces in comics decided to just, you know,
1114
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:28,360
do, like, a fashion thing, we should also
support that just as much as, like, you know,
1115
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:32,720
their comic work and stuff and whatnot. I feel
like everybody should be able to dabble in what
1116
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:37,200
they want to dabble in, and people just be
receptive. Like, if it’s not your cup of tea,
1117
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:42,440
that’s cool, but if you do like fashion
and you like Ace and Aro experiences,
1118
01:30:42,440 --> 01:30:45,740
then that’s perfect for you, you know?
Because it shouldn’t just be about one thing.
1119
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:51,280
[Kimberly] And that kind of segues into, like,
even in the comic book industry right now a lot
1120
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:58,080
of comic book artists are — they’re usually put
on certain types of books. So say, like you’re
1121
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,440
AroAce creator and stuff. They’re going to try
to put you towards AroAce characters and stuff,
1122
01:31:02,440 --> 01:31:06,120
so you can write that character and stuff.
And I had thought about it, and I was like — I
1123
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:12,680
actually like that, 100%. But also, on the
other hand, I feel like it’s debilitating,
1124
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:18,480
where it’s like, a lot of Black creators can
only write Black characters. And DC and Marvel,
1125
01:31:18,480 --> 01:31:23,800
they already don’t pay attention to their Black
characters. Like where’s Vixen, Bumblebee, Onyx,
1126
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:30,200
you know? Any of the male characters, like Mal
Duncan, Bumblebee’s partner. They never show
1127
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:35,880
up for them. And so I’m expected to write this
character that nobody really cares about, which,
1128
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,560
obviously, like, I care about them because,
you know, connection, and I’m very happy
1129
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:45,740
to see Black characters. But it’s sad because
they expect us to only do what we know, right?
1130
01:31:45,740 --> 01:31:49,920
[Kimberly] And I’m like, “I relate more to
Rose Wilson than any character because she’s
1131
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:53,400
my favorite character, but just because
she’s Asian and white doesn’t mean that
1132
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:57,560
I can’t write her, you know?” Like, she
literally has daddy issues. I’m like,
1133
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,573
“That’s literally my whole thing!”
I could just write her, you know?
1134
01:32:00,573 --> 01:32:00,590
[Courtney laughs]
1135
01:32:00,590 --> 01:32:05,320
[Kimberly] One of her siblings is dead! Like, and
then her other sibling is mute. And I’m like,
1136
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:12,640
“Disability, dead siblings, daddy issues, mommy
issues, like, she’s me!” [laughs] So it’s like,
1137
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:17,560
it’s so weird when they want to put you in this
box and this category, just because you know,
1138
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:21,680
“Oh, you’re this, and you’re this thing, and
those are the only two things you can ever be,
1139
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:26,760
and those are the only characters you can ever,
like, make,” and stuff. And it’s just very — like,
1140
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:31,520
it’s hurtful, I think, because
I don’t want to just be that.
1141
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:35,600
[Kimberly] And even.. I don’t know, even
with the comic and stuff like that,
1142
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:40,880
I think one of the characters that I made
— her name’s Ace, and she’s the leader,
1143
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:45,600
basically, and she’s the girl
failure. She’s just horrible.
1144
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:46,390
[Courtney and Kimberly laugh]
1145
01:32:46,390 --> 01:32:49,560
[Kimberly] She doesn’t do what she’s supposed
to. She’s not a good leader, you know, and stuff
1146
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:55,000
like that. And she’s — like, if you have that
parent that up and left and went to go get milk,
1147
01:32:55,000 --> 01:33:01,080
that’s what she is. Like, you know? And I love
her tremendously. And… I don’t know. Like,
1148
01:33:01,080 --> 01:33:07,880
I can’t relate to her, because she’s, like,
you know, Hispanic and white, that’s her race,
1149
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:14,840
but she is Ace and she’s also… well, I guess,
a girl failure [laughs], and I feel like I
1150
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:20,440
relate to those things and stuff. So it’s like,
just because you aren’t something and there are
1151
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:23,880
certain parts and stuff, that’s not the only
thing you have to focus on, you know? Like,
1152
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:30,600
I don’t have to make her Black just because, you
know, she is a part of my story that relates to me
1153
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:37,160
feeling inadequate. Maybe her inadequacy can go
hand in hand with, like, how Hispanic kids feel
1154
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:42,240
when they aren’t living up to, you know, their
family’s expectations, and stuff like that. And I
1155
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:48,160
feel like just making stories where you can branch
out and have different experiences and stuff,
1156
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:51,560
and just try to understand people through your
art and stuff, is, like, really important.
1157
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:57,360
[Kimberly] And yeah, like, one character I
have his name is Sun. He’s a gay character,
1158
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:02,800
and I based him off of my friend Jalen. And me
and him kind of came together and talked about,
1159
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:07,160
like, you know, the experiences of gay men and
stuff. And, like, one thing that I noticed all
1160
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:12,160
the time with gay men is that a lot of straight
women kind of flock to them in order to, like,
1161
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:17,840
you know, “Oh, I need you to tell me if my man
is gay on the low, so, like, I’ll know.” Like,
1162
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:22,680
you use him as an accessory. So, like, that’s
something I definitely wanted to, you know,
1163
01:34:22,680 --> 01:34:28,520
dabble in and try to bring to the world. Because
a lot of these topics and situations don’t get
1164
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:32,520
talked about — adoption, disability, you
know, all those things — and just try
1165
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:38,030
to put them in a comic and then, you know,
understand my own trauma, I guess. [laughs]
1166
01:34:38,030 --> 01:34:42,680
[Courtney] Yeah! I mean, those are all really
great points. And I think we even said at the
1167
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:51,480
beginning of this episode that we all have several
identities that make us up as a whole person. And…
1168
01:34:52,480 --> 01:34:59,240
I mean, part of the issue can be the nature of
the internet and the current state of algorithms.
1169
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:03,360
Because I even mentioned, like, “Oh, I found
myself on adoptee TikTok.” It’s like, well,
1170
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:07,520
if any of those people that talk about adoption
issues all of a sudden talk about something else,
1171
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:12,400
the algorithm isn’t going to show that video to
as many people, and that’s why you’re able to find
1172
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:19,320
yourself in a hole of the same topic over and over
again. But I don’t even know what Twitter’s up to
1173
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:24,600
these days. I feel like it’s so much worse than it
used to be, and it was never great. Like, the last
1174
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:30,040
year, I feel like people that I followed that
I used to see on my timeline every single day,
1175
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:35,920
I now find myself being like, “Oh, I haven’t seen
any posts from Asexual Goddess recently. Let me go
1176
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,960
to that account to see what’s up. Nope, there are
recent posts! Why weren’t they shown in my feed?”
1177
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:47,140
And, like, that’s just something that happens and
is happening more often, which is unfortunate.
1178
01:35:47,140 --> 01:35:51,040
[Courtney] But I found that a bit with my
own artwork, too. Because, like, yeah,
1179
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:55,560
we have our Ace Couple account and we talk
about Ace things. We have a podcast. We post
1180
01:35:55,560 --> 01:36:00,200
when we have new episodes and whatnot. And
we try to talk about a variety of topics,
1181
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:06,000
and at least our regular listeners
tend to… like, on Spotify and Apple,
1182
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:10,200
they tend to be pretty consistent numbers.
They tend to listen to most, if not all,
1183
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:16,400
of our episodes. But when we crosspost to YouTube,
just so — like, we do it for accessibility,
1184
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:21,920
so that people can have closed captions if they
like to read along as they’re listening. Those
1185
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:27,680
numbers are all over the place. Like, if it’s
a topic that isn’t popular, it’s going to tank
1186
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:32,360
and not get as many views. If it’s something that
is trending, if it’s — especially, like, a media
1187
01:36:32,360 --> 01:36:36,680
analysis for a popular show, those are going to
get a lot more views on YouTube. And we don’t
1188
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:42,640
get numbers fluctuating as much on the podcast
platform. So I know there’s an algorithm about it.
1189
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:49,400
[Courtney] But I don’t think it can all be blamed
exclusively on the algorithm, because I do think,
1190
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:55,320
within our own Ace community, that we are taking
baby steps and we’re getting better about talking
1191
01:36:55,320 --> 01:37:02,720
about some intersectional issues. Like, we are
talking about, like, “Support Black Aces.” We are
1192
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:09,960
talking about “Support disabled Aces.” But it’s
kind of like, “Intersection Ace,” and it has to be
1193
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:14,920
two. Like, “I follow this person because they’re a
Black Ace. I follow this person because they’re a
1194
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:23,240
disabled Ace.” And, to a certain extent, I feel
like if people try to expand their horizons and
1195
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:28,600
talk about other things and share other interests
and passions, it flies way under the radar.
1196
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:34,000
[Courtney] Because… I’m curious to hear what your
theories are, because you express some of this
1197
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:40,400
in “The Token Black Asexual.” But there certainly
is tokenism involved there. But I also just think
1198
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:48,040
that we’re not a real community as much as we try
to pretend like we are. I feel like we’ll say,
1199
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:52,640
“The Ace community,” and a lot of us, at
least on our own respective platforms — like,
1200
01:37:52,640 --> 01:37:57,480
there is an Ace Twitter. If you are on
Ace Twitter, you probably know, you know,
1201
01:37:57,480 --> 01:38:02,240
the same couple dozen names that come up
time and time again. So you probably know
1202
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:06,600
those people. And because you all know those
people, and other people all know those people,
1203
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:10,500
it feels like a pseudo-community,
so we can say “The Ace community.”
1204
01:38:10,500 --> 01:38:16,080
[Courtney] But there’s not nearly as much of
actual, like, reaching out and having personal
1205
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:22,200
conversations and making personal connections and
developing a real, tangible community as much as
1206
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:27,840
we’d like to. And I was thinking about this when
you were saying that, since you can relate to the
1207
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:33,280
trauma of adoption, you also want to be someone
that can support others who are used to that,
1208
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:37,400
and you want them to be able to talk to you
about that. We don’t get that much in the Ace
1209
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:43,000
community. A lot of us just sort of post out
into the void, and if people resonate with it,
1210
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,480
they’ll like it and they’ll share it, and then
we just go around in circles all day, forever
1211
01:38:47,480 --> 01:38:52,860
doing that without, like, tangibly supporting one
another, like a real community is supposed to.
1212
01:38:52,860 --> 01:38:58,080
[Kimberly] Absolutely. And that’s where, like,
sometimes I just don’t even get on my, like,
1213
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:02,560
Ace Twitter, because I’m like, “I don’t want
to just be a person that’s constantly just
1214
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:06,200
tweeting stuff and trying to get likes.”
I don’t really care about that kind of
1215
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:09,600
stuff. I’m really like — you know, if it’s
an issue and it’s plaguing, like, you know,
1216
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:14,480
Yasmin or Marshall or just anybody in the
community that needs a support, then I’m ready
1217
01:39:14,480 --> 01:39:19,920
to try to use my platform to get that information
out. Like, rarely is it about myself. Like,
1218
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:24,480
I don’t really care about the numbers. I’m usually
in my own world trying to do my art and stuff like
1219
01:39:24,480 --> 01:39:29,120
that. So, like, being famous on Twitter is not
my goal. Being famous on YouTube is not too much
1220
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:34,120
of my goal. It’s just that — you know, it was
something that I noticed. And like, honestly,
1221
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:39,720
if I could get Marshall or Yasmin or — Yasmin is
kind of already in that, you know, everybody kind
1222
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:45,240
of sees her sphere, or whatever — or, you know,
anybody else that wants to be, like, out there and
1223
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:49,620
activists and stuff like that, if I can get them
there, I would try to boost them as much as I can.
1224
01:39:49,620 --> 01:39:56,120
[Kimberly] But it’s just like, you know… I’m like,
I wanted to do something for the Ace community,
1225
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:59,920
because I love this community and, like you said,
it’s kind of a pseudo-community because they kind
1226
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:04,200
of support where they want to. But, like, I
want to make Ace characters, regardless of,
1227
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:08,040
if, you know, I stay on Twitter or YouTube
or whatever, I’m always going to make Ace
1228
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:11,840
characters. Like, half of the characters in
the little comic I was making are Ace. Like,
1229
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:16,800
one of them is literally named Ace. So,
like, Asexuality is a big part of my life,
1230
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,720
and I think that we definitely need more
characters, we need more comics, we need
1231
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:27,080
more literally everything that can help us get on
the map so that people stop treating us like we’re
1232
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:32,680
infants and treating us like, “Oh my God! You
don’t have sex? I would literally die!” you know?
1233
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:33,040
[Courtney laughs]
1234
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:38,160
[Kimberly] It’s really, like, the exposure
and making sure that we… not hit mainstream,
1235
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:42,680
but just so that people can know, so that they
can stop being ignorant towards Ace people. Like,
1236
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:45,720
that’s really my goal. And so, I just feel like,
1237
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:49,560
if that’s the route that I want
to go down and stuff, I feel like…
1238
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,680
[Kimberly] And I don’t know. It always
felt selfish, because it’s like, you know,
1239
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:56,000
people might not resonate with your art,
and stuff like that. And, like you said,
1240
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,880
with the algorithm: definitely have
seen that. because one of my favorite
1241
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:04,280
TikTokers — I have to look up her name for
her stuff to come up. So I’m like, “Yeah,
1242
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:08,120
you’re right! You’re absolutely right.” Like,
the algorithm is just kind of wack, you know?
1243
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,560
So I’m like, “Maybe that’s it,” you know? But
then I’m like, “Maybe it’s because I’m making
1244
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:16,760
Black — majority Black characters and stuff,
and maybe people just can’t relate to that.”
1245
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:21,280
[Kimberly] And, like you had said earlier about
how, you know, “Oh, this person is Ace and
1246
01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:26,480
disabled and Black and disabled,” and we kind of
just go off into those intersections of like, “Oh,
1247
01:41:26,480 --> 01:41:31,320
this person is Black and disabled, Black and Ace,
let me follow them because I’m Black and I’m Ace.
1248
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:36,320
Or, you know, I’m disabled and I’m Ace.” And, you
know, that’s cool to curate your feed to however
1249
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:40,960
you want it to be. Heck, half the time, I’m
talking about disability more than I talk about
1250
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:46,080
being Ace, at this point, or, like, adoption.
So you really will get a Russian roulette. And
1251
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:50,480
I barely post, so I’m not going to be, like,
your whole feed all the time, you know? That’s
1252
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:55,680
always the part that got me, you know? I try to
definitely be more diverse and stuff, because,
1253
01:41:55,680 --> 01:42:00,000
like, I’m realizing there are so many different
intersections to my identity. Disability is
1254
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:05,360
important to me. Mental health is important. Being
adopted is important. You know, art is definitely
1255
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:09,680
important, because that’s where I want to make my
money from, you know, one day, and stuff. So like,
1256
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:14,240
as you can see, my little room is literally
just art, you know? It’s very important to me.
1257
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:18,680
[Kimberly] So I feel like the rebranding was kind
of like, “Okay, I want people to take me more
1258
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:24,520
serious for my art.” And it kind of backfired.
[laughing] But, like, I don’t know. I’m still kind
1259
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:29,960
of in the middle, because I’m definitely still
going to do my little webtoons, the webcomic,
1260
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:34,720
definitely that. Because I’m always going to be
down to draw Trauma and stuff like that. But now
1261
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:40,640
I’m trying to, like, in the middle ground of,
“Should I keep the YouTube channel the same,
1262
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:45,560
or should I change it back?” And I’m thinking
about changing it back, but only because, like,
1263
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:50,280
I do feel like — you know, Marshall always tells
me — Gentle Giant — he always tells me, like,
1264
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:56,600
my content was his first, like, you know, exposure
to a lot of Black Ace people, and stuff like that,
1265
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,840
so he could relate. And I’m like, “Okay, that’s
—” you know? And I was doing a lot of educational
1266
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:05,200
things about, like, teaching people different
orientations and stuff like that. So it was,
1267
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:09,480
like, very important and stuff. And I feel like —
I still have the videos. They’re just kind of on
1268
01:43:09,480 --> 01:43:14,200
private. And so I’m like, “I maybe just un-private
it and then try to make more videos for the Ace
1269
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:19,120
community and then try to put in my artwork
where it fits in,” and stuff like that. Like,
1270
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:22,160
I’m trying to figure out what I want
to do. I’m kind of in limbo right now.
1271
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:25,480
[Kimberly] But, you know, I’m trying to get
into school as well, so I’m trying — like,
1272
01:43:25,480 --> 01:43:30,680
I’m not too worried about it, but if I can get
a better setup for my YouTube, then I feel like
1273
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:36,706
I’ll be more confident. But also, there’s not
a lot to talk about in the Ace community. Like…
1274
01:43:36,706 --> 01:43:37,550
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1275
01:43:37,550 --> 01:43:38,400
[Kimberly] You know? Like, right now,
1276
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:44,221
I think the biggest convo right now is
the Sex Education thing with Yasmin.
1277
01:43:44,221 --> 01:43:46,180
[Courtney] [laughs] Yeah,
that’s still pretty fresh.
1278
01:43:46,180 --> 01:43:51,400
[Kimberly] Yeah! And everybody’s just like,
“Wow!” People are having different opinions
1279
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:55,520
and stuff like that, and, you know, we’re
like, “Yeah, them darn TV productions,
1280
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:59,520
they’re going to see Ace people like we’re
the most boring people on earth.” I just,
1281
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:04,440
I don’t know, I don’t want my channel to always
just be like, “Oh, like, so-and-so is fighting on
1282
01:44:04,440 --> 01:44:08,880
Twitter,” you know, and stuff. Like, I just want
it to be something of substance. And, you know,
1283
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,240
I could definitely make more videos about,
like, different orientations and stuff like
1284
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:19,320
that and trying to inform people. But, you know,
trying to do both is… Especially since now I’m,
1285
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:23,640
like, trying to go to art school, I probably
should focus more on the art school aspect
1286
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:28,200
in terms of my art and try not to make it,
like, a YouTube career thing, too. Because
1287
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:32,760
then it kind of clashes. So I’m like, “I don’t
know. I don’t know.” I really do want to bring
1288
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:37,240
back my Ace channel, because I know it means
a lot to a lot of people. So, I don’t know.
1289
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:40,320
[Courtney] Speaking of Marshall, I
mean, this is a bit of a side tangent,
1290
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:44,200
but have you listened to his recent episode?
He was interviewed on Coming Out Pod.
1291
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:47,480
[Kimberly] I haven’t, but I’ve
definitely seen — he posted about it.
1292
01:44:47,480 --> 01:44:49,080
[Courtney] He shouted you out!
1293
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:50,560
[Kimberly] Oh my gosh!
1294
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:51,980
[Courtney] Yeah, he did!
1295
01:44:51,980 --> 01:44:56,560
[Kimberly] Oh my gosh. I love Marshall
because he’s always there for me.
1296
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,500
[Courtney] He’s great. He is,
like, such a good friend.
1297
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:03,640
[Kimberly] He really is. Like, we talk
almost every other night or whatever,
1298
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:07,360
because we call each other, and so we always
talking about something. And, like, you know,
1299
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:13,640
he really has been my biggest advocate. Because
I’m telling you, like, I am not a person that
1300
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:19,040
can sell my own product. I don’t really — like
I said earlier, I just don’t. I care about my
1301
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:23,480
YouTube channel, but I’m not going to be like, “I
need to get, like, one million followers.” Like,
1302
01:45:23,480 --> 01:45:29,040
I’m like, “Whoever it reaches out to, whoever
it helps or whatever, that’s great.” But he’s
1303
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:32,800
definitely a person that’s always trying to push
me to the forefront and make sure that people
1304
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:37,320
don’t forget me and stuff. And sometimes I do feel
forgotten in the Ace community, when people make
1305
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:41,920
posts and stuff, and I never get tagged. I’m like,
“Dang, guess I wasn’t that important,” you know?
1306
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:46,240
[Kimberly] But it’s like, I just feel like
it definitely is good to have more different
1307
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:51,280
diversity and, like, a lot of the posts that
kind of, you know, talk about different Aces
1308
01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:55,160
and stuff or whatever. So, like, I think that’s
why it hurts a little. Because it’s like,
1309
01:45:55,160 --> 01:46:00,560
I want to talk about different stuff and,
you know, I want to be able to… You know,
1310
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:05,120
it’s not even about growing the audience,
even. It’s just about, if you can resonate
1311
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:08,840
with what I make and stuff, then that’s
perfect, but if not, that’s cool too. Like,
1312
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:13,200
you know? Really, it’s just about that. And so
Marshall has been a big component in helping
1313
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:19,270
me in any way that he can. So shout out to
Marshall. I love him and his cakes. [laughs]
1314
01:46:19,270 --> 01:46:25,800
[Courtney] Shout out to Marshall. I don’t know if
I will have hung out with him by the time this
1315
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:30,360
episode goes live or not, but, like, we have been
trying to set up another time to hang out for,
1316
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:36,880
like, so long. But I am the worst at, like,
emails. My inboxes — I have too many inboxes,
1317
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:40,880
first of all, and too many people trying to
contact me on all of them. And also trying
1318
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:46,080
to plan Ace Week things. I’m like, “Aaah.” Every
single day, I’m like, “I still need to reach out
1319
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:51,800
to Marshall and also these 80 other people.”
[laughs] So, Marshall, I’m sorry it’s taken
1320
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:57,740
so long. Love you, shout out to you, talk to
you real soon, after Ace Week has calmed down.
1321
01:46:57,740 --> 01:47:02,000
[Courtney] But here’s — like, along
those same lines, and I don’t know
1322
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:06,520
if this will help give you any clarity
going forward, but I can at least tell
1323
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:13,320
you a little bit of my own experience as an
artist who is also Asexual. Because, I mean,
1324
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:16,960
for several years I would try to talk
about, like, intersectional Ace issues,
1325
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:21,360
and the community was just not having it, so
I couldn’t get, like, a foothold in it for a
1326
01:47:21,360 --> 01:47:24,420
really long time. So I was like, “Well, I
tried. I’ll try again in a couple months.”
1327
01:47:24,420 --> 01:47:30,640
[Courtney] But I had — I mean, I am a professional
artist, it is my business, it is how I make a
1328
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:36,920
living. And so I had my, like, business accounts
for my artwork. And for a long time, it was almost
1329
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:42,720
exclusively the combination of my artwork
and the history behind this art form. And so
1330
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:48,960
I started building my audience there. And when I
had like a decent following — like, I don’t know,
1331
01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:56,600
6,000 or so followers on Instagram and a couple
thousand on YouTube — then there was an Ace Week
1332
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:02,840
where I was like, “You know what? I’m going to
make an Ace Week video on my hairwork channel,
1333
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:06,920
just because this is important to me, and
I want other people to learn about it.” And
1334
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:12,440
what I found from doing that was my regular
viewers who came originally for my artwork
1335
01:48:12,440 --> 01:48:16,880
and the history started to say, like, “Well,
yeah, I want to learn more about the artist now,
1336
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:21,360
and I want to learn more about who you are as
the artist,” and that was sort of the next step
1337
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:26,480
there. So I still retained those viewers,
when I started posting about Ace things.
1338
01:48:26,480 --> 01:48:30,960
But then I also started attracting Ace people
who had never given me the time of day before,
1339
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:36,380
because they were like, “Oh, here’s Ace
representation in a place I didn’t expect.”
1340
01:48:36,380 --> 01:48:40,920
[Courtney] And the novelty of that
is something that’s very weird to
1341
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:46,760
navigate in the community. Because now that
we have our Ace Couple podcast and Twitter,
1342
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:51,440
there were a couple times I tried sharing my
artwork on the Ace Couple account ,and it got
1343
01:48:51,440 --> 01:48:57,560
very little attention. So I was like, “Alright,
if you establish yourself as an Ace account,
1344
01:48:57,560 --> 01:49:03,200
people only care about the Ace things. But if
you establish yourself as an art account and then
1345
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:09,080
occasionally talk about Asexuality, people will
care about the art and then also the Asexuality.”
1346
01:49:09,080 --> 01:49:13,880
And so that was super weird. And it sounds
like maybe that’s something that’s still true,
1347
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:17,640
even though it’s been a couple years since I
discovered that, based on your own experience.
1348
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:22,680
[Courtney] And I was actually having this
conversation with some of my fellow organizers,
1349
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:28,440
because we have a panel that we’re doing
for Disabled Ace Day, and we were trying to,
1350
01:49:28,440 --> 01:49:33,440
a couple months ago, say, “What are all the
events we want to do? What are the resources
1351
01:49:33,440 --> 01:49:39,000
we want to put out? How do we do this year?”
And we were thinking, “Well, if we do a panel,
1352
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:42,680
where are we going to do the panel?” And
a lot of us have connections with a lot
1353
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:47,040
of the Ace orgs. So it’s like, “I’m sure if
we ask really nicely, the AVEN livestreams
1354
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:50,580
channel will let us do it there. I’m sure
we’ve got connections that we can ask.”
1355
01:49:50,580 --> 01:49:55,200
[Courtney] But we had to kind of take a step back
and be like, “Well, not a lot of people actually
1356
01:49:55,200 --> 01:50:00,760
pay attention to the AVEN YouTube channel,”
because they just don’t get a lot of viewership,
1357
01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:06,280
and they definitely are not going to get people
from outside the Ace community. If we post it
1358
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:12,520
there, it’s only going to be, like, very diehard
Ace people looking for Ace content. Whereas,
1359
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:17,400
I said, “You know, is this just me? Is this
just my own personal feeling? How do you guys
1360
01:50:17,400 --> 01:50:23,640
feel? I feel like if we were able to get a
more broadly queer organization that is not
1361
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:31,840
Ace-specific at all, if we had a GLAAD or a
Trevor Project or any of these other ones,
1362
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:39,720
if they let us do a panel on their YouTube channel
about, like, Aces and disability, is it just me
1363
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:44,960
or is the Ace community going to be more excited
about that than if we kept it in-house? Because
1364
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:49,440
everyone’s going to be like, ‘Look, this big queer
org noticed us! They’re talking about Ace things!’
1365
01:50:49,440 --> 01:50:54,640
And that will actually get a lot more buzz, not
only within our community but out of it.” So,
1366
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:59,360
everyone was like, “Yeah, actually, that’s
very true. That’s exactly what would happen.”
1367
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:04,360
[Courtney] So it’s one of those weird things
where, even within the Ace community, it’s like,
1368
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:10,680
we get into our little tiny bubble where Aces
start to not care about other outside issues,
1369
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:17,680
but then also, we can’t really draw in new people,
either, because it’s just kind of a sinkhole of,
1370
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:21,420
you know, I don’t know. Does that make
sense? Does that sound about right?
1371
01:51:21,420 --> 01:51:26,840
[Kimberly] No, absolutely! That’s exactly how
it feels. Because I do feel like, you know,
1372
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:33,680
especially wanting to talk about other LGBT
issues and stuff. Like,’cause also, I’m on the
1373
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:37,760
bisexual spectrum and stuff. So I’m like, “Yeah,
I want to talk about that.” But then I’m like,
1374
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:44,080
“What if the Aces hate it?” Like, you know? And
it’s just like, you’ve got to go fishing for,
1375
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:48,400
like, okay, maybe the bi Aces will,
you know, relate and they’ll want to,
1376
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:54,000
you know, see it and stuff. Or you gotta
kind of rely on the other not A-related
1377
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:58,500
LGBT people to kind of tune in and stuff,
which also feels like you’re copping out.
1378
01:51:58,500 --> 01:52:02,480
[Kimberly] But it’s like — it’s so weird, because
it’s like, you just want to — like you said,
1379
01:52:02,480 --> 01:52:07,320
you just want to reach more people sometimes,
and you just — you can’t, because they’re like,
1380
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:10,840
you know, “If it’s not-Ace related, like, I
don’t care.” That goes hand in hand with the
1381
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:14,480
intersection, like you said, where it’s like,
“You could talk about being an Ace and, like,
1382
01:52:14,480 --> 01:52:19,080
adopted, but I don’t get that one part — like, the
adoption part — so it’s nothing to do with me,” or
1383
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:24,060
“I’m not actively looking for those resources or
information, so, like, yeah, I don’t really care.”
1384
01:52:24,060 --> 01:52:25,440
[Kimberly] And I get that, because, like,
1385
01:52:25,440 --> 01:52:29,600
I probably do that too, you know, until
I go into something and I’m like, “Okay,
1386
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:34,160
there’s importance to this,” and stuff like that.
And I try not to fault anybody, because I get it,
1387
01:52:34,160 --> 01:52:38,080
’cause, as a person whose attention span is,
like, three seconds long, like, I get it.
1388
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,190
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1389
01:52:40,190 --> 01:52:41,060
[Courtney] Right. Right.
1390
01:52:41,060 --> 01:52:41,740
[Kimberly] Yeah!
1391
01:52:41,740 --> 01:52:48,240
[Courtney] It’s so strange, because I feel
like part of the pitfall of not really feeling
1392
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:54,640
like a real community actually comes from a
diehard desire to have and find a community,
1393
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:59,720
and so it seems kind of counterintuitive. But
I think people find the, quote, “Ace community”
1394
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:06,000
because they want a community, so they’re looking
for that Ace-specific connection. Whereas people
1395
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:12,240
are still looking for that in other areas too;
that’s why we’re so hyperfixated on, like,
1396
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:17,600
Ace representation in the media, because we want
to see and find that connection in other places.
1397
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:25,480
[Courtney] So when I would, like, occasionally
talk about Ace issues on my business platform,
1398
01:53:25,480 --> 01:53:29,720
then I would occasionally get people who would be
like, “This is the first I’ve ever learned about
1399
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:34,040
Asexuality. Thanks for teaching me something
new.” So you’re reaching other people outside
1400
01:53:34,040 --> 01:53:38,560
of the community, for one, but then you’d get Ace
people coming in because they’re like, “Oh wait,
1401
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:43,440
an Ace! Maybe I can make a connection
over here.” So when it comes from,
1402
01:53:43,440 --> 01:53:47,440
like, an art or a personal platform
that isn’t Ace-specific, it’s like,
1403
01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:52,680
people already care about your work as an
artist, or they care about you as a person,
1404
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:59,600
as an artist, already. So they still care about
the Aceness when you start to talk about it.
1405
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:04,360
[Courtney] But with this desire to find
a community, because you haven’t had it,
1406
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:08,320
you haven’t had that connection, you’re like,
“Ace. Ace community. This is where I want to
1407
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:14,080
be.” But then you sort of get so focused on
that community that you start disregarding
1408
01:54:14,080 --> 01:54:21,000
the personal aspects of it. Because now you’re
looking at people as “another Ace that shares a
1409
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:28,120
space with me,” rather than seeing, like, the
whole person. And so it’s sort of a vicious
1410
01:54:28,120 --> 01:54:32,760
cycle where, in looking for community
and trying too hard to find community,
1411
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:37,060
you almost dig yourself into a hole where
it’s never going to be a real community.
1412
01:54:37,060 --> 01:54:41,560
[Kimberly] Absolutely. Like, you know, when I did
the little rebranding, I think it was kind of out
1413
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:46,080
of, like, a fear. Because I’m like, “I don’t
want to just be known as, like, a activist all
1414
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:50,280
the time.” Where it’s like, obviously, I’m cool
with it, you know? Like, if that’s what people
1415
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:55,480
know me as, The Asexual Goddess, that’s cool.
But, like, I don’t want my whole life to just be,
1416
01:54:55,480 --> 01:55:01,040
you know, Ace, Ace, Ace. Because, like, like
I said, I’m other things, too. So it’s like,
1417
01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:06,520
if that’s what people know me as, I’m like, “Okay,
maybe I just kind of branded myself wrong.” And,
1418
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:12,000
you know, maybe if I can try to — if I could
skew it towards something that I do like,
1419
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:17,120
that I would do for the rest of my life, like
art, then maybe people would try to be a little
1420
01:55:17,120 --> 01:55:22,660
more receptive and then just, like, accept it,
because maybe I branded it wrong the first time.
1421
01:55:22,660 --> 01:55:26,480
[Kimberly] And so, like, I was
kind of trying to find a way out,
1422
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:31,840
I think. And that’s where the new channel
comes in. But even now, I feel like I kind
1423
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:37,240
of robbed the Ace community of, like, important
things that they, you know, they had before,
1424
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:42,040
like certain videos and stuff. But also, I do
understand the importance of trying to, like,
1425
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:46,120
make sure that you do what you want to do,
and then, you know. But you’re right. Like,
1426
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:50,520
I should just create a separate channel or
just create a separate, like, Instagram and
1427
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:54,760
focus on my art, and then the people that are
receptive will come, and then they’ll be like,
1428
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:59,440
“Oh, this character’s Ace? That’s cool!” Like, you
know? And maybe it’ll spread that way and stuff.
1429
01:55:59,440 --> 01:56:03,840
[Kimberly] But, yeah, I do feel
like, in terms of my characters,
1430
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:08,400
I want them to be tied to the Ace community, but
I want them to be tied to other communities too,
1431
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:11,320
you know? Like, I want them to be
like, “Oh, this character’s adopted,
1432
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:15,040
and they just so happen to be Ace too. Like,
I can relate in that sense,” and stuff, you
1433
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:20,980
know? And so it is a conundrum to, like, deal with
all of these things, like, I want and stuff, but.
1434
01:56:20,980 --> 01:56:24,440
[Courtney] Well, it’s vicious, to
begin with, that social media kind
1435
01:56:24,440 --> 01:56:30,920
of forces yourself to brand yourself even
if you’re just a person. Like, I’m just me,
1436
01:56:30,920 --> 01:56:36,880
but the vicious nature of the algorithm and the
way that everyone above a certain follower count
1437
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:40,800
is kind of like a little pseudocelebrity
in their own little pockets, it’s like,
1438
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:45,680
it kind of forces you to brand yourself
even, if you’re just trying to be yourself.
1439
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:46,920
[Kimberly] Yeah.
1440
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:51,360
[Courtney] So that’s something that I’ve
really struggled with over the years a lot.
1441
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:55,800
[Kimberly] Definitely. And it’s like, I’m
trying to… Like, because of this and being
1442
01:56:55,800 --> 01:57:00,920
in these spaces, you do start to see a
lot of people’s channels do better with
1443
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:04,560
certain things than other ones and stuff. And
I started to feel bad, because I’m like, “Yeah,
1444
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:08,800
I know how that feels.” Like, you know, this video
got, like, a thousand views; this video got zero,
1445
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:12,420
you know? And it’s like, but I really like
the zero one. I thought people would res—
1446
01:57:12,420 --> 01:57:15,840
[Kimberly] And so now I’m looking at it
like, “Hey, if somebody makes content,
1447
01:57:15,840 --> 01:57:20,480
I’m’a just watch it, even if it’s just on in the
background. Just give them that, like, you know,
1448
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:24,560
respect for the work that they put in.” And
it’s like, you know, because half the time,
1449
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:28,640
like I said, attention span three seconds, so,
hey, like, something playing in the background
1450
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:32,560
isn’t going to affect me while I’m drawing,
you know? It’s just giving them watch time,
1451
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:36,400
maybe getting them paid or something. It’s
just being considerate and trying to… like,
1452
01:57:36,400 --> 01:57:41,280
you know. But I think that that’s something that
people have to go through to, like, understand it,
1453
01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:45,292
and then you kind of change your ways. It’s
kind of like, I call it the politician effect —
1454
01:57:45,292 --> 01:57:45,306
[Courtney] Mmm.
1455
01:57:45,306 --> 01:57:49,160
[Kimberly] — where the politician really cares
if it’s happening to them. They’re like, “Oh, my
1456
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:54,840
son is disabled now. I care.” And it’s like, you
should have cared before, you know? But I get it.
1457
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:55,410
[Courtney] Yes.
1458
01:57:55,410 --> 01:58:00,200
[Kimberly] You know? Like, you have to — you have
to see it and understand it to be like, “That is
1459
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:05,920
a issue.” Like, I’m going to try to do better for
other people so that hopefully it’ll come back.
1460
01:58:05,920 --> 01:58:12,360
[Courtney] Are there any other topics that you’re
itching to get to? We talked a lot about adoption,
1461
01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:15,960
the community, the comic, but I
want to make sure that you have
1462
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:20,320
the space if there’s anything we haven’t even
brought up yet that you want to talk about.
1463
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:23,600
[Kimberly] Oh, I don’t know. I
feel like as soon as I get off,
1464
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,820
I’m gonna be like, “Oh yeah, I should
have talked about that.” No, but…
1465
01:58:26,820 --> 01:58:29,830
[Courtney] We’ll take notes.
We’ll do a part two. [laughs]
1466
01:58:29,830 --> 01:58:36,080
[Kimberly] Yes, that would be amazing. I’m always
down for a podcast, trust me. I need it. I need
1467
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:41,080
something to do, sometimes, because I’m just in
the house. [laughs] But yeah, mostly, I’m just,
1468
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:46,760
you know, right now, I’m just trying to get my
stuff together for art school. That’s really my
1469
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:51,000
goal right now. So if you all see less and less
of me on Twitter or YouTube and stuff, like,
1470
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:56,000
that’s probably why. But hopefully, once I’m done
with the two years that I have, maybe I’ll make
1471
01:58:56,000 --> 01:59:00,560
the full comic, you know? Because that is really
my goal right now. But, you know, trying to focus
1472
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:06,380
on Trauma and the other characters and stuff —
yeah, that’s pretty much my whole thing right now.
1473
01:59:06,380 --> 01:59:11,560
[Courtney] Well, I look forward
to reading more. We’ve read the,
1474
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:15,960
I think, four panels. Is that how much
you have up now? Are there more now?
1475
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:19,480
[Kimberly] Yeah, I think it’s just,
like, four or five chapters and then,
1476
01:59:19,480 --> 01:59:21,120
like, three or four panels each. Yeah.
1477
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:27,880
[Courtney] Yeah. So, yeah, I’ve seen at least the
first four chapters, and it’s beautiful work. And,
1478
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:34,200
honestly, I didn’t know that you were already such
an accomplished artist! Like, it’s great. And,
1479
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:39,520
I mean, I’ve followed you for how long now,
but it was kind of ironic and sort of proves
1480
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:43,680
some of the points you were talking about in that
video. I hadn’t seen a post from you for so long,
1481
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:48,240
and, honestly, a lot of people, like, even some of
our, like, closest friends in the Ace community,
1482
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:53,840
I’m like, “Where are all their posts?
What’s going on?” And you use the words,
1483
01:59:53,840 --> 01:59:57,320
like, “Black and Asexual” in the
Twitter post, and you were like,
1484
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:02,920
“Oh, I am tired of having to only talk about being
Black and Asexual.” And, like, that was the first
1485
02:00:02,920 --> 02:00:08,600
post I had seen from you in a really long time.
And I was like, “Of course.” [laughs] Of course,
1486
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:13,780
in your critique of the very same
thing, that’s the first time I see this.
1487
02:00:13,780 --> 02:00:19,200
[Kimberly] Exactly! And I had to kind of like…
It always feels like logistics and stuff where
1488
02:00:19,200 --> 02:00:22,720
you have to be like, “Okay, I have to add these
words, I have to do this, I have to do that.”
1489
02:00:22,720 --> 02:00:24,020
[Courtney] It’s exhausting!
1490
02:00:24,020 --> 02:00:28,400
[Kimberly] Yeah! Like, I don’t want
to just use “Black Asexual” as, like,
1491
02:00:28,400 --> 02:00:33,440
the scapegoat all the time. Like, I don’t want to
have to be like, “Black Asexual” just for more…
1492
02:00:33,440 --> 02:00:37,600
you know? But I’m like, that’s just kind of like
the hole I put myself in. If I had understood the
1493
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:41,240
algorithm a little more, maybe I would have
tried to do something a little different,
1494
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:45,200
you know? Maybe I would have curated
it towards, like, comics. Or, you know,
1495
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:49,520
Ace Comics would have been cool. Or just
comics being there in general as the main
1496
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,960
thing that gets boosted, that would have been
cool. So now it’s just basically about, like,
1497
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:57,080
trying to rework that and just, you know,
trying to figure out how that even happens.
1498
02:00:57,080 --> 02:01:01,070
How do you rework something that’s kind of
set into the system now, you know? Like —
1499
02:01:01,070 --> 02:01:06,680
[Courtney] Yeah. I mean, it’s so frustrating.
But I am glad that, in that post that you made,
1500
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:10,040
that you did use those words and that it
came across my feed. Because then I was
1501
02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:14,360
able to click on the video, watch it, hear
your thoughts, see your process. And then I
1502
02:01:14,360 --> 02:01:19,840
was able to find the link to the first couple
chapters of the comic. And I was like, “Great,
1503
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:23,960
now I have a comic to follow!” But then I
went back, like, directly to your account,
1504
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:28,600
and I was scrolling down and down and down,
and you had mentioned the comic before that
1505
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:34,040
post that I saw, and it had so little views,
engagement, like, nothing. And I was like,
1506
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:39,040
“Well, I certainly didn’t see this either, and
now I’m mad! Because, Twitter, I wanted to see
1507
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:44,150
this.” Like, if the people I follow have a
new project, I want to know about it. Ugh.
1508
02:01:44,150 --> 02:01:48,480
[Kimberly] Exactly. [laughs] It’s
horrible all the way around. Like,
1509
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:53,000
I just… You know, it makes me kind of wish
that we were back in the days where, like,
1510
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:57,240
you just draw the comic and it somehow
gets in, like, the newspapers. And like,
1511
02:01:57,240 --> 02:02:01,253
literally, if I could just go out and hand
it by hand and stuff, that would be cool.
1512
02:02:01,253 --> 02:02:01,270
[Courtney laughs]
1513
02:02:01,270 --> 02:02:04,480
[Kimberly] You know? Because we think
social media is so much better. It’s
1514
02:02:04,480 --> 02:02:08,880
really not! Like, I’m like, if you can
block somebody’s content and make them
1515
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:13,497
feel isolated and they have to talk about
one thing, that’s not good! I don’t know.
1516
02:02:13,497 --> 02:02:13,510
[Courtney] No.
1517
02:02:13,510 --> 02:02:17,800
[Kimberly] It’s just like, it is
useful to get the memo out and stuff,
1518
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:21,600
but you gotta hope and pray, like,
hopefully it’ll reach somebody,
1519
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:26,505
you know, and they’ll spread it and
stuff, and it’s just… It’s defeating.
1520
02:02:26,505 --> 02:02:32,960
[Courtney] Mhm. Well, we are absolutely going to
be putting links in the show note to the comic,
1521
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:37,200
so that our listeners can go check it
out also. I implore all of you to do
1522
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:43,320
so. But where are all the other
places that people can find you?
1523
02:02:43,320 --> 02:02:47,560
[Kimberly] Yeah, just mostly, you know,
Twitter right now. I had an Instagram,
1524
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:52,380
but I think I might want to redo that
one. It was, like, Ace-centric, but I…
1525
02:02:52,380 --> 02:02:54,670
[Courtney] Oh, that’s a great name. [laughs]
1526
02:02:54,670 --> 02:02:58,320
[Kimberly] Oh, no no no no! It was — no, it
was a different name, but, like, Ace-centric.
1527
02:02:58,320 --> 02:03:02,640
[Courtney] Oh! Oh, two words.
It was Ace-centric. I see. I
1528
02:03:02,640 --> 02:03:07,590
thought you were making a pun — like,
eccentric, but Ace-centric. [laughs]
1529
02:03:07,590 --> 02:03:08,649
[Kimberly] That’s smart! I like that.
1530
02:03:08,649 --> 02:03:10,750
[Courtney] And then I’m like, “That’s
actually pretty good.” [laughs]
1531
02:03:10,750 --> 02:03:13,520
[Kimberly] Yeah! That would be
actually pretty cool! No, but yeah,
1532
02:03:14,040 --> 02:03:18,200
I don’t know where that one’s at right now,
but I’ll see about that one. And then, yeah,
1533
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:22,960
like, mostly I’m just on YouTube. YouTube and
Twitter, I would say those are the main ones.
1534
02:03:22,960 --> 02:03:27,560
Probably going to rebrand one more time on
YouTube, who knows, we’ll see. Because, hey,
1535
02:03:27,560 --> 02:03:30,480
if I get into art school, I probably
won’t have time to be on YouTube.
1536
02:03:30,480 --> 02:03:36,200
[Kimberly] But if you definitely want to check
out any art, my main Instagram is… Because,
1537
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:41,160
like, I post art on there sometimes, but I feel
like it’s not the best, or, like, you can kind
1538
02:03:41,160 --> 02:03:47,000
of see sometimes where, you know, I grew and
where I didn’t. But my main Instagram is called
1539
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:53,760
@kimmyb12_. So if you guys want to check that
out. And then, right now, the YouTube — literally,
1540
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:58,633
if I get off today, it’ll probably be back to
The Asexual Goddess. I don’t know. I don’t…
1541
02:03:58,633 --> 02:03:58,650
[Courtney laughs]
1542
02:03:58,650 --> 02:04:02,280
[Kimberly] But I’d just say, look up The Asexual
Goddess on YouTube, if you want to see YouTube
1543
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:06,900
videos. I might just… you know. So, who knows.
I’m very, like, all over the place sometimes, so.
1544
02:04:06,900 --> 02:04:11,960
[Courtney] Well, we’ll have the link down
there for whatever name it currently is.
1545
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:16,960
[Kimberly] Yeah. Might switch, but hey.
And then I was going to ask, yeah, if you,
1546
02:04:16,960 --> 02:04:20,920
you know, could send me the link to your art
stuff, because I definitely would love that.
1547
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:25,300
I need more art stuff on my timeline,
you know? Just different types of art.
1548
02:04:25,300 --> 02:04:29,680
[Courtney] Oh, sure. I mean,
well, [laughs] I can do that,
1549
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:35,160
but I have not really been posting
much on social media, like, at all,
1550
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:41,320
anywhere. So I think I literally have not touched
my Instagram in, like, a year. [laughs] I have my
1551
02:04:41,320 --> 02:04:47,060
Patreon for people that, like, throw me a few
bucks every month, but, like… I don’t know.
1552
02:04:47,060 --> 02:04:52,520
[Courtney] I had a YouTube channel for a while. It
was actually a colleague of mine who was actually,
1553
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:59,480
like, a pretty famous, like, really big YouTuber,
like, encouraged me to start a YouTube channel.
1554
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:03,880
She was like, “If you start a YouTube channel,
it’s going to be really popular.” And so I started
1555
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:09,700
doing, like, little history and art videos, and
I got some viewers. I got some patrons from it.
1556
02:05:09,700 --> 02:05:18,240
[Courtney] But the thing is, I don’t like making
videos. I like having conversations with people,
1557
02:05:18,240 --> 02:05:26,280
and I like teaching people, and I like teaching
classes, and I would like lecturing. I have
1558
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:31,320
lectured at museums and colleges, and I like
being in front of an audience and performing
1559
02:05:31,320 --> 02:05:38,120
that way. But I don’t like sitting in my living
room in front of a camera that we had to fiddle
1560
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:46,200
with for an hour to get it looking just right
and then… like, I don’t like that. [laughs] So
1561
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:50,480
it was like — every time, I was like, “Oh,
I should post a YouTube video.” It was just
1562
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:55,240
becoming a hassle, and I didn’t want it to
be a hassle, because I love the history and
1563
02:05:55,240 --> 02:06:00,230
I love the art. I didn’t want to hate the
medium by which I was sharing it. [laughs]
1564
02:06:00,230 --> 02:06:00,960
[Courtney] Oh, no, definitely.
1565
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:06,040
[Royce] Yeah, video recording days were
often a hassle. And that’s part of why
1566
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:12,040
this show is in audio-only format, because
it’s a lot easier for two of us to sit at
1567
02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:16,960
a table around a microphone than it is for
Courtney alone to sit in front of a camera.
1568
02:06:16,960 --> 02:06:18,600
[Courtney] Yep. Yep, yep, yep.
1569
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:25,760
[Kimberly] I feel you. Like, I think I stopped
making most of the video content because
1570
02:06:25,760 --> 02:06:29,600
it is hard to just sit down sometimes
Like, whether it’s because, you know,
1571
02:06:29,600 --> 02:06:33,880
you might have different ideas and you don’t
know how to — like, because the video scripting,
1572
02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:37,800
even in itself, is hard. Because, like, I
could write something down, and then I’m like,
1573
02:06:37,800 --> 02:06:41,280
“I gotta stick to the script.” And then I’m
like, “I just thought of something on the fly,”
1574
02:06:41,280 --> 02:06:46,520
you know? And it’s definitely not always the main
go to. So I think it’s pretty cool that you guys,
1575
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:51,520
like, have the podcast. That definitely is
more, like, free-flowing, and it definitely,
1576
02:06:51,520 --> 02:06:56,140
you know, kind of is more authentic and
natural. So it definitely works. Yeah.
1577
02:06:56,140 --> 02:07:00,840
[Courtney] Well, it also just helps us get
out more content, because it’s very low
1578
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:09,800
effort. [Laughs] Like, it really is. It’s low
effort, low time, because I could write essays
1579
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:15,840
about every single topic we’ve talked about. And
I have written some. I mean, I am a writer to
1580
02:07:15,840 --> 02:07:24,040
some extent. But it takes longer to write, like,
a 1,000- or 2,000-word article than it does to sit
1581
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:29,240
down and record a two-hour-long podcast, which
we can do every single week — even though we’re
1582
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:33,200
trying to not do two hours every single week,
or at least Royce, every time we’re recording,
1583
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:37,280
is like, “This episode is getting long. You know
we’re going to make another one next week. We can
1584
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:43,550
pick this up later.” [laughs] And I’m like,
“But I have so many things to say!” [laughs]
1585
02:07:43,550 --> 02:07:47,400
[Kimberly] Yes, I get you. Yeah, I wanted
to thank you guys for letting me on,
1586
02:07:47,400 --> 02:07:52,440
you know? I haven’t done anything like this
in a while. Definitely does make me feel,
1587
02:07:52,440 --> 02:07:54,910
you know, very special. [laughs]
1588
02:07:54,910 --> 02:07:59,800
[Courtney] You are. You are special.
You’re probably among the first few, like,
1589
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:03,560
Twitter accounts that we actually followed
when we started our Twitter account. Like,
1590
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:06,230
you were definitely in the
first, like, batch. [laughs]
1591
02:08:06,230 --> 02:08:11,200
[Kimberly] Oh, thank you. I’m glad. Yeah, I just
hope that people, you know, like, learn something
1592
02:08:11,200 --> 02:08:15,560
today. Learn that I’m kind of versatile. Like, I
just — you know, different components and stuff,
1593
02:08:15,560 --> 02:08:21,600
and definitely different things that I care about.
Like, I’m not just a Black Ace, [laughs] you know?
1594
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:26,420
But, I mean, if that is something that I want to
talk about, it should be one of those things, so.
1595
02:08:26,420 --> 02:08:34,440
[Courtney] Yeah! And, I mean, care about the whole
person, and let’s try to start building something
1596
02:08:34,440 --> 02:08:41,840
that feels like a more tangible community and
see everyone’s different identities and how it
1597
02:08:41,840 --> 02:08:47,000
makes up the whole person. And, I mean, I’m
really excited. Hopefully more people will
1598
02:08:47,000 --> 02:08:50,400
be turned on to your artwork, because it is
lovely artwork. I mean, here you’re saying,
1599
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:55,081
“Oh, I want to go to art school,” and I’m
like, “But why? You’re already so good!”
1600
02:08:55,081 --> 02:08:55,110
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1601
02:08:55,110 --> 02:08:59,640
[Kimberly] It’s because I’m not disciplined, and
I’m like, look, I’ve been an artist for, like,
1602
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,680
dang near 24 years at this point. I feel
like I came out the womb — feels like it,
1603
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:08,160
you know? I’m always like, I’m not disciplined
to learn composition, perspective, and, like,
1604
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:11,880
light and shadow. And I’m like,
“Why did it take so long? Like,
1605
02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:16,320
what is wrong?” You know? So I’m like, I could
do it by myself, but I do feel like I need a
1606
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:20,640
little extra push. And just, you know, try to
learn how to network with people, and just…
1607
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:21,270
[Courtney] Sure.
1608
02:09:21,270 --> 02:09:25,040
[Kimberly] Yeah. Just, like, the discipline still
would have to come from me. Like, going to school
1609
02:09:25,040 --> 02:09:29,240
isn’t going to make me disciplined all of a
sudden, but, you know. Because, if you notice,
1610
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:35,896
I don’t draw hands and I don’t draw backgrounds
and I don’t draw dynamic, like, perspective.
1611
02:09:35,896 --> 02:09:35,910
[Courtney] Ahh.
1612
02:09:35,910 --> 02:09:38,920
[Kimberly] So I’m like, I’m trying to get there,
you know? I want to be able to do it all.
1613
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:39,560
[Courtney] Sure.
1614
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:40,010
[Kimberly] Yeah.
1615
02:09:40,010 --> 02:09:44,020
[Courtney] Yeah, I mean, there’s always
more to learn, so I certainly get that.
1616
02:09:44,020 --> 02:09:45,520
[Kimberly] Definitely, yeah.
1617
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:50,840
[Courtney] But, yeah, so, listeners,
please follow… are we still calling you
1618
02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:56,481
The Asexual Goddess? Are you the artist
formerly known as The Asexual Goddess?
1619
02:09:56,481 --> 02:09:56,510
[Kimberly and Courtney laugh]
1620
02:09:56,510 --> 02:09:59,520
[Kimberly] I mean, yeah, you can still
call me The Asexual Goddess. I definitely,
1621
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,840
you know, definitely still want to
be in the community. I want to be,
1622
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:08,080
like, helping people, because I love this
community and it means so much to me. So,
1623
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:14,360
like, I want to make content for Ace people, you
know? So, yeah, The Asexual Goddess is fine, yeah.
1624
02:10:14,360 --> 02:10:19,160
[Courtney] All right, listeners, you heard it
here. Go follow The Asexual Goddess in all of the
1625
02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:25,840
various endeavors and projects. And, once again,
I do just want to give everyone out there very
1626
02:10:25,840 --> 02:10:31,960
happy Ace Week. For our allo listeners out there
— I know there are a few of you, I see you — make
1627
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:41,840
sure to send your local Aces cake and/or garlic
bread, or dragons, or black rings, or axolotls.
1628
02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:48,680
Maybe just a care package with all of those things
stuffed in it. Just go forth. Prove your allyship
1629
02:10:48,680 --> 02:11:00,400
through presents. [laughs] And we will all talk
to you same time, same place next week. Goodbye.
