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Welcome to the Forty Forty Pastors Podcast.
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I'm your host, Arthur J.
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James.
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And if you're a bivocational pastor or church leader looking to remain fulfilled in ministry and life, then you've landed at the right spot.
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Let's jump in.
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Pastor, I know, I'll just call him Marcus because that's not his name.
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Got a text from a deacon at 940 on a Tuesday night.
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Hey, saw your work truck parked outside the Henderson's again.
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Everything good with the church?
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Now, Marcus stared at the text for a long time, not because the question was hostile.
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It wasn't.
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The deacon meant well, but underneath that text was a question Marcus had never been asked, directly or indirectly for that matter.
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He never gotten honest about what the church actually understands about his life and how it looks, not on Sunday, but on Tuesday, for instance.
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You see, Marcus owns a HVAC company and he works forty hours at least, sometimes even six days a week, and he pastors a church of about ninety people who love him and he loved them, he loves them, but they have no real picture of what his days look like.
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Today we're going to talk about the tax.
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Nobody told you and I we would be paying as a bivocational pastor.
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It's not a financial tax, it's the cost of living in two worlds when only one of them understands and really knows what you're doing.
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If you heard episode two or watched it, you saw Dr.
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Kenneth Chapman talk about what it's like to hold two demanding callings at the highest level simultaneously, being at a university and at the church.
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If you haven't heard it yet, go back and watch or listen to it.
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I promise it'll be worth your time.
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Today, though, we're shifting the lens.
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In episode one, we begin to talk more theology.
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In episode two, more testimony.
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And today, in episode three, it's going to get a little uncomfortable because we're going to ask the question most 4040 pastors think about constantly and almost never say out loud.
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What does your church actually know about your life?
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Not what you've told them in a sermon illustration, not the polished, redeemed version of your week that shows up in the announcements.
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I mean, does your congregation know how exhausted you were on Thursday?
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Do they know that your business almost didn't make payroll in March?
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Do they know that you literally drove your truck to the hospital to make a visit, but you sat in the parking lot to pull yourself together before you could pray because you literally didn't have anything left?
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Did they know it wasn't because you didn't care, but because of the tension that comes with your assignment?
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For most of you, the honest answer is not really.
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And today I want to talk about why that gap exists, what it costs you, and what if anything you should do about it.
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Let's be honest about why this gap exists.
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I don't think it's because your congregation doesn't care.
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I think it's because of three quiet, reasonable dynamics that nobody designed on purpose.
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First, the pulpit edits your and my life.
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Every Sunday you take the raw material of your week and you shape it into something usable.
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That's not dishonest.
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That's a craft.
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But over time your congregation only sees the edited version.
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They see the sermon illustration where the hard week became a testimony.
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They rarely see the Tuesday or the Wednesday that it happened on.
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Second, most congregations have never been taught to ask.
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They don't know what questions are appropriate.
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Is it okay to ask your pastor how the business is doing?
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Is it is it intrusive to ask if ministry feels like too much on top of a full-time job, not mentioning a family with young children.
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Most members though default to silence.
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Not because they don't care, but because nobody modeled the asking.
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And third, this one is on us.
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Many of us protect this gap on purpose.
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We tell ourselves we're protecting the church from our burden, or protecting our authority, or protecting our business reputation from being seen as distracted by ministry.
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Sometimes that protection is wisdom, but sometimes it's just well disguised isolation.
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I know I've been guilty myself.
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Here's a result of all three of those dynamics stacking on top of each other, year after year, week after week, month after month, Sunday after Sunday.
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It's a pastor who is fully known in neither world, fully present in both, fully known in neither.
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And therefore it makes it a challenge for our people to really understand the pressure so they can help with the pressure.
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I want to give this gap a name, because something without a name is hard to address.
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I call it the two-world tax.
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It's the invisible cost you and I pay for living faithfully in two callings when only one of those worlds has the full picture.
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If you've been reading the King Arthur Speaks newsletter that we send out each week, you've already seen this framework.
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But today I want to unpack it here out loud, because I think it deserves more than an email.
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That being shared, there are three forms this tax takes.
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Number one, tax, identity fragmentation.
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This is the experience of feeling like two different people, depending on the room you're standing in.
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On the one hand, your church knows this version of you that they see a church, and then there's a version of you your coworkers and or clients know.
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And without a place where the whole integration of you gets to exist out loud, that's a challenge.
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Tax number two is margin erosion.
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This is the slow disappearance of personal capacity.
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It's not a dramatic burnout moment, just margin quietly eaten away, because both worlds assume that the other one isn't also asking you of everything you have.
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And then the third tax is invisible labor.
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This is the work nobody sees or credits, the emotional toll of a pastoral care happening on your lunch break.
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The sermon prep that takes place at 11 p.m.
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after you've worked a full day at your other job.
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The mental code switching can become a challenge between managing budget meetings and then bedside prayers at the same time in an afternoon.
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Here's what I want to be very clear about this two-world tax is simply this.
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It is not evidence that you made the wrong choice.
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A tax only exists where there is real income.
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You're producing something of genuine value in both of the worlds that you're in.
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And the tax is a cost of that productivity, not a penalty for failure, but a tax you don't acknowledge is a tax that compounds.
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And the way it compounds, fastest is in silence when the people closest to you and I in either world have no idea it's being paid.
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I want you to reflect for a moment.
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Which of uh the forms of the two-world taxes are you carrying the most right now?
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Is it the margin challenge?
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Is it the fragmentation of your person?
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Is it the free labor?
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Before we move on, I want although I can't talk.
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I want you to pause and think about that.
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Honestly, I know for myself, I've I've had moments where margin erosion would show up because you look up and you don't find yourself doing the things that you delight in because there's just not enough time.
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Or it's the fragmentation, uh fragmentation rather of your identity showing up in one, behaving like you're in the other.
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Or have you been here where you actually have had to manage your world?
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I I know what it's like uh prior to even now being bivocational, uh being a bivocational pastor and professor and dean and hotel manager working, and then at lunch having to officiate a funeral and having to uh bring my whole self back together to go throughout the rest of the day, it can become a challenge.
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Now, yes, it helps us when we're able to operate in both worlds where we can be our full selves, but truthfully, not many of us know how to do that successfully.
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And even if we do, if we're honest with ourselves as well, we tend to find there being some tension within ourselves.
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Even when the people don't say anything, we feel like we should be giving our all all the time.
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And that's something I want us to reflect on and pray about concerning how we can manage and thrive in both worlds because of these taxes not taking too much of a toll on us when we begin to understand that we ourselves have been built for this, but even though we've been built for it, we have to balance it so that we can all become better by it.
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Now let's get practical, because I don't think the answer here is tell your church everything.
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That's not wise, first of all.
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That's just trading one imbalance for another.
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So let's draw a line.
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There are things your congregation genuinely needs to know, not for your comfort, but for the health of the relationship.
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And there are things that are simply not theirs to carry.
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Here's what I think your congregation needs to know.
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In general terms, that you have a life outside the church that requires real time and real energy.
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That there will be seasons when one world demands more than the other.
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And that's not a sign you're failing them.
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That's a sign you are human, and capacity is finite, even when calling is not.
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Here's what is not theirs to carry the granular financial details of your business, the specific anxieties that belong in a counselor's office or spouse's ear, not a congregational meeting.
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The day-to-day operational stress that would create more worry than understanding if shared too widely.
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The goal isn't full disclosure, the goal is enough transparency that your congregation can love you accurately instead of loving a version of you that doesn't actually exist.
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And here's a practical suggestion as well.
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Build a small circle of three, maybe four people in your congregation or leadership team who get more of the real picture than the rest of the congregation.
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Not everyone needs full access, but somebody should have it.
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Isolation is not a spiritual discipline.
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And so you want to be very selective in who you choose to share the more intricate details.
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And even I would recommend having someone outside the church or ministry so that they can help you lead with success.
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Here's what I've learned: not everyone who cares can carry the burden that you and I carry.
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And so be very wise and mindful of how you share and when you share.
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Now, I pastor a church called the Transparent Church, and many of our members hear some of my life laced in messages each week.
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But I'm very mindful of not sharing too much, but enough to where they can relate, but also know that there's not over worry about my life and about what I've got going on as it relates to business outside the church, because even though the business outside the church helps to be a blessing inside the church, not everyone can carry, even though they care.
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So use wisdom in even building a team around you, a small circle around you, so that you're not in isolation.
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I know that's hard for many of us to do, but if we're going to live and lead with success for the long haul, we have to begin to have boundaries.
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Even though we have boundaries, we must also understand the importance of being selective in what we share and when we share.
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I want to say something directly to the congregation member who might be listening to this episode or watching it right now.
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Maybe because your pastor shared it with you, maybe because you found it yourself.
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If your pastor is by vocational, here is the most loving question you can ask them.
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Start asking more often than not.
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How is the other part of your life going?
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Not as small talk, but as genuine curiosity.
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Your pastor is not less devoted to you because they have a job.
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In many cases, that job is part of how God is forming them to shepherd you well.
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The most loving thing you can do is stop treating their other world as a distraction from ministry and start treating it as a window into who they actually are.
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Ask the question, then actually listen to the answer.
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Ask the question, but also pray for your pastor or ministry leader who happens to be bivocational.
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They see the challenges on both sides.
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I can't tell you how many times when I've gone to try to encourage someone who has been a member of our church has encouraged me right back by just simply asking, How are you doing, Pastor?
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No, how you really doing.
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Or, Pastor, I'm praying for you.
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As a matter of fact, uh I had surgery not too long ago for the first time, and one of the members reached out to our leadership team and said, We're gonna start a prayer chain for Pastor.
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That meant the world to me.
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And I'm saying this to you because in two worlds, you need the support, and you also need to be there to support the members in the church.
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We work together, not uh in isolation again.
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I can also recall a situation where, as a bivocational dean of a college, one of our members actually attended the college that I had the ability to serve at, the privilege to serve at.
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And unbeknownst to me, she saw at the campus I was a leader in, the president and the cabinet, we all had our pictures on the wall, and she came back saying, I'm so proud, that's my pastor on the wall there.
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It brought validation to me being in both worlds and also understanding on her part that when you don't see a pastor here five days, seven days a week, if you don't see him, he's somewhere working, doing the Lord's work, not just at the church.
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And so I share that with you, any congregants who are watching, to pray for your leaders and your pastors who are bivocational.
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Many of you serve as volunteers by vocationally as well, and so you know the challenge that comes with that.
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And so that being shared again, let's continue to lift one another up because it makes a world of difference.
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Here's what I want you to carry out of today's episode.
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The two-world tax is real, it has a name now, and naming it is not weakness, it's the first step of honesty toward a healthier way of carrying both callings.
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You don't owe your congregation your full story, but you do owe yourself a few people who know the real one.
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Coming up in episode four, we're getting even more practical.
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We're tackling what I call the Monday problem.
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How to actually structure a week that doesn't quietly rob one calling to pay the other.
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If today's episode named the tax, next episode starts building the budget.
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Subscribe now so you don't miss it.
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And if you haven't already, go check out this week's King Arthur Speaks Newsletter, where we're continuing this exact conversation with a few things I didn't even have time to unpack or say here.
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You can subscribe to the newsletter by visiting Arthur J James dot com and you'll get that weekly newsletter.
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Remember, your calling is not split, it's whole, and it's allowed to be known.
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I'll see you in episode four.
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Welcome to the Forty Forty Pastors Podcast.
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:24.719
I'm your host, Arthur J.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:25.440
James.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:33.439
And if you're a bivocational pastor or church leader looking to remain fulfilled in ministry and life, then you've landed at the right spot.
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:34.880
Let's jump in.
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Pastor, I know, I'll just call him Marcus because that's not his name.
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Got a text from a deacon at 940 on a Tuesday night.
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Hey, saw your work truck parked outside the Henderson's again.
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Everything good with the church?
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Now, Marcus stared at the text for a long time, not because the question was hostile.
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It wasn't.
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The deacon meant well, but underneath that text was a question Marcus had never been asked, directly or indirectly for that matter.
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He never gotten honest about what the church actually understands about his life and how it looks, not on Sunday, but on Tuesday, for instance.
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You see, Marcus owns a HVAC company and he works forty hours at least, sometimes even six days a week, and he pastors a church of about ninety people who love him and he loved them, he loves them, but they have no real picture of what his days look like.
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:34.879
Today we're going to talk about the tax.
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:39.280
Nobody told you and I we would be paying as a bivocational pastor.
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:47.439
It's not a financial tax, it's the cost of living in two worlds when only one of them understands and really knows what you're doing.
00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.719
If you heard episode two or watched it, you saw Dr.
00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:59.120
Kenneth Chapman talk about what it's like to hold two demanding callings at the highest level simultaneously, being at a university and at the church.
00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.480
If you haven't heard it yet, go back and watch or listen to it.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.239
I promise it'll be worth your time.
00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.400
Today, though, we're shifting the lens.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.520
In episode one, we begin to talk more theology.
00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.080
In episode two, more testimony.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:24.159
And today, in episode three, it's going to get a little uncomfortable because we're going to ask the question most 4040 pastors think about constantly and almost never say out loud.
00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.240
What does your church actually know about your life?
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Not what you've told them in a sermon illustration, not the polished, redeemed version of your week that shows up in the announcements.
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.759
I mean, does your congregation know how exhausted you were on Thursday?
00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:48.479
Do they know that your business almost didn't make payroll in March?
00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:58.560
Do they know that you literally drove your truck to the hospital to make a visit, but you sat in the parking lot to pull yourself together before you could pray because you literally didn't have anything left?
00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:03.120
Did they know it wasn't because you didn't care, but because of the tension that comes with your assignment?
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.479
For most of you, the honest answer is not really.
00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:14.240
And today I want to talk about why that gap exists, what it costs you, and what if anything you should do about it.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.520
Let's be honest about why this gap exists.
00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:22.560
I don't think it's because your congregation doesn't care.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:31.599
I think it's because of three quiet, reasonable dynamics that nobody designed on purpose.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:36.319
First, the pulpit edits your and my life.
00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:44.000
Every Sunday you take the raw material of your week and you shape it into something usable.
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.400
That's not dishonest.
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:48.400
That's a craft.
00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:53.039
But over time your congregation only sees the edited version.
00:03:53.840 --> 00:04:00.400
They see the sermon illustration where the hard week became a testimony.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.759
They rarely see the Tuesday or the Wednesday that it happened on.
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:12.400
Second, most congregations have never been taught to ask.
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They don't know what questions are appropriate.
00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:21.759
Is it okay to ask your pastor how the business is doing?
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:32.160
Is it is it intrusive to ask if ministry feels like too much on top of a full-time job, not mentioning a family with young children.
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.279
Most members though default to silence.
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Not because they don't care, but because nobody modeled the asking.
00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.560
And third, this one is on us.
00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.160
Many of us protect this gap on purpose.
00:04:48.399 --> 00:05:02.319
We tell ourselves we're protecting the church from our burden, or protecting our authority, or protecting our business reputation from being seen as distracted by ministry.
00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:10.959
Sometimes that protection is wisdom, but sometimes it's just well disguised isolation.
00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:12.879
I know I've been guilty myself.
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Here's a result of all three of those dynamics stacking on top of each other, year after year, week after week, month after month, Sunday after Sunday.
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It's a pastor who is fully known in neither world, fully present in both, fully known in neither.
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And therefore it makes it a challenge for our people to really understand the pressure so they can help with the pressure.
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I want to give this gap a name, because something without a name is hard to address.
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I call it the two-world tax.
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It's the invisible cost you and I pay for living faithfully in two callings when only one of those worlds has the full picture.
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If you've been reading the King Arthur Speaks newsletter that we send out each week, you've already seen this framework.
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But today I want to unpack it here out loud, because I think it deserves more than an email.
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That being shared, there are three forms this tax takes.
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Number one, tax, identity fragmentation.
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This is the experience of feeling like two different people, depending on the room you're standing in.
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On the one hand, your church knows this version of you that they see a church, and then there's a version of you your coworkers and or clients know.
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And without a place where the whole integration of you gets to exist out loud, that's a challenge.
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Tax number two is margin erosion.
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This is the slow disappearance of personal capacity.
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It's not a dramatic burnout moment, just margin quietly eaten away, because both worlds assume that the other one isn't also asking you of everything you have.
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And then the third tax is invisible labor.
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This is the work nobody sees or credits, the emotional toll of a pastoral care happening on your lunch break.
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The sermon prep that takes place at 11 p.m.
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after you've worked a full day at your other job.
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The mental code switching can become a challenge between managing budget meetings and then bedside prayers at the same time in an afternoon.
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Here's what I want to be very clear about this two-world tax is simply this.
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It is not evidence that you made the wrong choice.
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A tax only exists where there is real income.
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You're producing something of genuine value in both of the worlds that you're in.
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And the tax is a cost of that productivity, not a penalty for failure, but a tax you don't acknowledge is a tax that compounds.
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And the way it compounds, fastest is in silence when the people closest to you and I in either world have no idea it's being paid.
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I want you to reflect for a moment.
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Which of uh the forms of the two-world taxes are you carrying the most right now?
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Is it the margin challenge?
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Is it the fragmentation of your person?
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Is it the free labor?
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Before we move on, I want although I can't talk.
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I want you to pause and think about that.
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Honestly, I know for myself, I've I've had moments where margin erosion would show up because you look up and you don't find yourself doing the things that you delight in because there's just not enough time.
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Or it's the fragmentation, uh fragmentation rather of your identity showing up in one, behaving like you're in the other.
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Or have you been here where you actually have had to manage your world?
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I I know what it's like uh prior to even now being bivocational, uh being a bivocational pastor and professor and dean and hotel manager working, and then at lunch having to officiate a funeral and having to uh bring my whole self back together to go throughout the rest of the day, it can become a challenge.
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Now, yes, it helps us when we're able to operate in both worlds where we can be our full selves, but truthfully, not many of us know how to do that successfully.
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And even if we do, if we're honest with ourselves as well, we tend to find there being some tension within ourselves.
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Even when the people don't say anything, we feel like we should be giving our all all the time.
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And that's something I want us to reflect on and pray about concerning how we can manage and thrive in both worlds because of these taxes not taking too much of a toll on us when we begin to understand that we ourselves have been built for this, but even though we've been built for it, we have to balance it so that we can all become better by it.
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Now let's get practical, because I don't think the answer here is tell your church everything.
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That's not wise, first of all.
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That's just trading one imbalance for another.
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So let's draw a line.
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There are things your congregation genuinely needs to know, not for your comfort, but for the health of the relationship.
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And there are things that are simply not theirs to carry.
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Here's what I think your congregation needs to know.
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In general terms, that you have a life outside the church that requires real time and real energy.
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That there will be seasons when one world demands more than the other.
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And that's not a sign you're failing them.
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That's a sign you are human, and capacity is finite, even when calling is not.
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Here's what is not theirs to carry the granular financial details of your business, the specific anxieties that belong in a counselor's office or spouse's ear, not a congregational meeting.
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The day-to-day operational stress that would create more worry than understanding if shared too widely.
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The goal isn't full disclosure, the goal is enough transparency that your congregation can love you accurately instead of loving a version of you that doesn't actually exist.
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And here's a practical suggestion as well.
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Build a small circle of three, maybe four people in your congregation or leadership team who get more of the real picture than the rest of the congregation.
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Not everyone needs full access, but somebody should have it.
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Isolation is not a spiritual discipline.
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And so you want to be very selective in who you choose to share the more intricate details.
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And even I would recommend having someone outside the church or ministry so that they can help you lead with success.
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Here's what I've learned: not everyone who cares can carry the burden that you and I carry.
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And so be very wise and mindful of how you share and when you share.
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Now, I pastor a church called the Transparent Church, and many of our members hear some of my life laced in messages each week.
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But I'm very mindful of not sharing too much, but enough to where they can relate, but also know that there's not over worry about my life and about what I've got going on as it relates to business outside the church, because even though the business outside the church helps to be a blessing inside the church, not everyone can carry, even though they care.
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So use wisdom in even building a team around you, a small circle around you, so that you're not in isolation.
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I know that's hard for many of us to do, but if we're going to live and lead with success for the long haul, we have to begin to have boundaries.
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Even though we have boundaries, we must also understand the importance of being selective in what we share and when we share.
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I want to say something directly to the congregation member who might be listening to this episode or watching it right now.
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Maybe because your pastor shared it with you, maybe because you found it yourself.
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If your pastor is by vocational, here is the most loving question you can ask them.
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Start asking more often than not.
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How is the other part of your life going?
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Not as small talk, but as genuine curiosity.
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Your pastor is not less devoted to you because they have a job.
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In many cases, that job is part of how God is forming them to shepherd you well.
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The most loving thing you can do is stop treating their other world as a distraction from ministry and start treating it as a window into who they actually are.
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Ask the question, then actually listen to the answer.
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Ask the question, but also pray for your pastor or ministry leader who happens to be bivocational.
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They see the challenges on both sides.
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I can't tell you how many times when I've gone to try to encourage someone who has been a member of our church has encouraged me right back by just simply asking, How are you doing, Pastor?
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No, how you really doing.
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Or, Pastor, I'm praying for you.
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As a matter of fact, uh I had surgery not too long ago for the first time, and one of the members reached out to our leadership team and said, We're gonna start a prayer chain for Pastor.
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That meant the world to me.
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And I'm saying this to you because in two worlds, you need the support, and you also need to be there to support the members in the church.
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We work together, not uh in isolation again.
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I can also recall a situation where, as a bivocational dean of a college, one of our members actually attended the college that I had the ability to serve at, the privilege to serve at.
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And unbeknownst to me, she saw at the campus I was a leader in, the president and the cabinet, we all had our pictures on the wall, and she came back saying, I'm so proud, that's my pastor on the wall there.
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It brought validation to me being in both worlds and also understanding on her part that when you don't see a pastor here five days, seven days a week, if you don't see him, he's somewhere working, doing the Lord's work, not just at the church.
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And so I share that with you, any congregants who are watching, to pray for your leaders and your pastors who are bivocational.
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Many of you serve as volunteers by vocationally as well, and so you know the challenge that comes with that.
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And so that being shared again, let's continue to lift one another up because it makes a world of difference.
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Here's what I want you to carry out of today's episode.
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The two-world tax is real, it has a name now, and naming it is not weakness, it's the first step of honesty toward a healthier way of carrying both callings.
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You don't owe your congregation your full story, but you do owe yourself a few people who know the real one.
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Coming up in episode four, we're getting even more practical.
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We're tackling what I call the Monday problem.
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How to actually structure a week that doesn't quietly rob one calling to pay the other.
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If today's episode named the tax, next episode starts building the budget.
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Subscribe now so you don't miss it.
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And if you haven't already, go check out this week's King Arthur Speaks Newsletter, where we're continuing this exact conversation with a few things I didn't even have time to unpack or say here.
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You can subscribe to the newsletter by visiting Arthur J James dot com and you'll get that weekly newsletter.
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Remember, your calling is not split, it's whole, and it's allowed to be known.
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I'll see you in episode four.
