The Collapse Engine: Jackrabbit Pollack

WEBVTT
00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:11.919
10,000 years ago, before cities, before kings, before borders, and before ownership, humans lived differently.
00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:18.160
We were cooperative, creative, deeply connected to each other and to the world around us.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:20.079
We had enough.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.079
Between then and now, something changed.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:25.440
What happened?
00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:27.039
Was it inevitable?
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.079
And what did we lose along the way?
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.520
More importantly, can we get any of it back?
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.119
I'm Chris Bercher and this is the 10,000-year problem.
00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:43.920
A conversation about who we were, what changed to get us to where we are now, and what we might become.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:52.079
Each episode, I'll talk with scientists, thinkers, and regular people doing the hard work of figuring out where we went wrong and what we can do about it.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:01:00.560
This project isn't about romanticizing the past, but understanding who we were, who we are, and who we want to be.
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:02.479
Let's get into it.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:15.439
Thank you for joining me in this debut interview episode of the 10,000 year problem.
00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:19.680
Today I am talking with Jack Rabbit Pollock.
00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:25.439
Jack and I met on Substack where we discovered quickly that we were writing about similar subjects.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:30.480
I, with a focus on what happened 10,000 years ago to get to where we are today.
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:36.000
Jack Rabbit looking more into where we are today and why uh did we arrive here.
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:41.680
What sort of mechanisms in evolutionary biology and neurobiology and neuroscience perspective?
00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:49.359
He's done a lot of research, which shows in his Substack profile where two of his articles are getting a lot of traction.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.040
Um one of them, uh, well, both of them we talk about today.
00:01:53.200 --> 00:02:08.159
One is the mismatch, about the mismatch between our ancient brains and our modern brains, and the juxtaposition of those existing in a modern world, uh, whereas we might be more adapted to a more ancestral type world.
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:14.080
And one asking the question whether or not human species are invasive.
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:16.639
He's more than just a modern thinker.
00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:17.919
He's an excellent writer.
00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:22.400
He puts unique ideas together that I haven't seen other people do.
00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:32.560
He draws from his interests in shamanism, uh, human mental health, as well as these other fields uh that I mentioned before that we talk about today.
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:44.479
You'll be rewarded with some thoughtful ideas about how we as individuals can heal ourselves in our current environment, despite where we think we may be going.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:48.319
I hope you enjoy this interview with Jack Rabbit Pollock.
00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:50.800
Hello, everybody.
00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.400
Welcome to the 10,000 year problem.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:59.599
I'm here today with Jack Rabbit Pollock, and we're going to talk about what happened 10,000 years ago up until now.
00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.400
What the hell happened?
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:01.439
So, Jackson.
00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:02.000
Yes.
00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:06.960
We we met uh very organically on Substack, I think.
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:28.000
Um, I think we read each other's writing and we know each other a little bit, and I'm really curious to sort of understand what's in what's going on in your head when you think about what humans used to be uh and what we are now, and so that we can sort of maybe do a better job about figuring out where we want to go.
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:36.240
So if you can uh tell us just a little bit about sort of how you got into this space and how you started writing what you're writing on Substack, that'd be awesome.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:38.080
Well, I that's a great question.
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.560
I thank you for not asking me for my credentials.
00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.000
That's that was awesome, Chris.
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:49.120
Um, yeah, I woke up one morning and I thought, uh, why are we here?
00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.479
Uh and I was like, I want to know about the origin of life.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.159
That's really how this got started.
00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.800
And I was like, I started reading this book by this guy, Nick Lane, who is awesome.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.400
It's called The Vital Question.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.479
Definitely I would recommend it to everyone.
00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:10.639
It's really just kind of like he goes into the way that life started based, like he took an approach that was energy based.
00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:17.040
He was like, How where did the energy come from that would have generated life that could have generated life?
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:18.319
It was really interesting.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:20.240
But that was just kind of like the start.
00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.199
I really literally woke up thinking, like, what is happening?
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:29.040
And I realized and I found I started reading about the origin of the universe, and that was really cool.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:35.040
It was so cool like to find out that yes, we are actually made from stars, you know, like how awesome is that?
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:41.600
Like there was like a supernova that blew up, and we wouldn't be here without like what the supernova generated.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.360
Like, that's just so cool, right?
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:53.279
But then I then I started to um, you know, I started to get into like why why we're so messed up, you know, right?
00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.519
Like I started to have to I had to ask that question, like, what are we doing?
00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:59.040
Like, why are we so messed up?
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:05.680
And eventually what I what I kind of iterated into was what I called a collapse engine.
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:24.079
I'm calling it the collapse engine now, which is basically the way that our brains, our brain systems are arranged in such a way that we are we we are basically calibrated to make really bad decisions when considered in the context of the modern world.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:43.600
Like the modern world is is uh has been generated because of the the brain systems that organically grew through evolutionary processes and brought us into brought Homo sapiens into the Pleistocene, Pleostocene era, right?
00:05:44.399 --> 00:06:24.560
Um and so that's kind of where I'm going, where I've been going, which is you know, um, you know, um the brain systems are calibrated, they're set up for a small group of humans to work together in a particular natural environment as hunter-gatherers, and that our uh evolutionary fitness was improved by um uh by our ability to create tools and the way that we could learn from each other to make better tools, which improved our evolutionary fitness.
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:33.199
And that was all a result of working together in groups, which was something that had been happening with hominids for millions of years.
00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.720
And we were evolving, you know, for tool use.
00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.560
We were evolving for, you know, these bigger brands that had the capacity to be able to learn and teach.
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:54.720
This is something that I I took from um Joe uh Henrich, his uh secret of our success, really kind of lit me up a lot about like how how we got here.
00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:04.079
But basically the fundamental issue, the fundamental element of the collapse engine is our brain systems and the way that they mismatch, their mismatch.
00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.519
They're perfectly they work perfectly in our natural environment, right?
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:15.360
Which is these small groups of hunter-gatherers out on in that natural environment, right?
00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:16.560
They work great for that.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:32.480
The problem is that we, because of our cultural advancements, right, there are our ability to innovate and create new tools, eventually what happened was we turned ourselves into an invasive species.
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:38.240
And I write about that in the Substack post that is called What If Agent Smith was right.
00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:47.199
And uh that's really all about kind of like exploring this idea that human beings are an invasive species, an invasive species.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.519
Um and so I don't, I don't I don't know.
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.240
Am I going too far afield or can I continue?
00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:55.040
Like what do you think?
00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:56.079
No, no, no, please.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:03.920
And if you want, like you can remind people about that scene uh and what sort of led to that article uh before you get into the that's a good idea.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:12.240
So, like, so uh in The Matrix 1999 movie, I I would assume most people know about it, was so it was really a game changer.
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.720
But uh if you haven't watched it, check it out.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:30.879
Uh, but Agent Smith, who is uh the kind of avatar of this uh global artificial intelligence that has taken over and basically dominated human beings and turned us into living batteries, whatever.
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:52.080
But you know, as this artificial intelligence, he is having a conversation with one of the protagonists of the movie, and he is he's got he's got him, you know, he's he's captive, and you know, and Agent Smith is saying, look, you know, human beings are unlike any other creature because all they want to do is consume.
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.720
No matter where they go, they consume and consume.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:58.000
There are virus, there are cancer on the planet.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:02.720
And, you know, that was not true.
00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:04.320
It was true and it wasn't true, right?
00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:08.240
Agent Smith was right because that is how human beings behave.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:20.000
From prehistoric times, we have actually invaded um ecosystems that we were not, we were not evolved to occupy.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:28.080
And when we enter into those novel, novel environments, we operate as if we are invasive, an invasive species.
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:42.799
Because what happens with an invasive species is they are not restrained by negative feedback from their environment to prevent that prevents them from continuing to expand to you know to exponentially, right?
00:09:42.879 --> 00:10:03.120
And so um what is different about humans, we are like that, because like uh in my research I found out that the majority of living organisms would behave like an invasive species if you pick them up and put them into a novel environment.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:03.919
Okay.
00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:10.720
And but but the thing that's different about human beings is that we actively do that.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.159
We're we're trying to do that all the time.
00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:29.440
We're expanding and going into new environments where we can then exploit those environments, and we do that because we're able, we have because of our ability to innovate and and our tool use, right?
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:42.799
We have a um we have set up a situation where the negative feedback from the environment that would constrain us naturally, okay, is we eliminate it from our environment.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.480
So, like uh, you know, we murder any predators.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:57.360
We don't, that's why you don't see any tigers, lions, or bears running around in your city, because we've killed every rival predator that we don't that we feel threatened by, right?
00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:07.600
And conversely, we also have turned all the plants, all the natural environment, we've calibrated it in such a way that it provides us with all the nutrition that we need.
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:18.639
We're not limited by the environment's ability to uh provide calories to us because our innovations have made that negative feedback, right?
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:27.039
Where, okay, well, once I over uh you know, if I overgraze and there's no grass left, then I can't survive.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.639
I'm gonna die off, right?
00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.279
That's what happens to like animals in the wild.
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:36.240
If they over, if they overeat their environment, they die off.
00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:42.799
If there's, you know, too many predators, then they, you know, if there's not enough predators, then they expand.
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:50.720
Human beings are unique in the fact that we actively remove the negative feedback from our environment.
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.799
And what that does is that turns us into a global invasive species.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:01.279
Um and that's that's not good.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:02.879
Invasive.
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:14.240
Well, it's interesting how it's interesting how you connect, you just connected the energetics um part of it to food sources, which is basically just energy flow.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:26.240
It's all and and I guess the uh a kind of a a follow-up question, you know, as part of the uh the collapse engine, as you'd call it, do you think we're aware of this?
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:45.039
I mean, because there the the sort of the question that keeps coming in my mind is like, is this insidious or or is it just well, I almost want to say, like, did the hardware get in front of the software or or are these choices that we're making, are they true choices if we don't really know the choices that we're making?
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:55.840
And yeah, no, thanks for thank you for asking me that question, Chris, because that you what you're doing is you're getting to the heart of the matter, and that's the mismatch of our brain, the structures in our brain.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:10.480
This is this is the key element of the collapse engine, which is that our um older the older older parts of our brain, okay, receive information.
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.320
And this is there's data about this, there's there's science behind this.
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:46.480
The older parts of our brain, so the brains that were tip the parts of our brain that were typically it used to be called the limbic system, okay, and the basal ganglia, stuff that it's all about controlling our uh uh fundamental bodily functions, okay, like the auto, the uh automatic stuff, like our heart rates and our lungs and and all the rest, but also like our emotions, okay, our feelings, how we feel about things, how we how we uh we tag things, we relate to things, are they a threat?
00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.080
Are they a friend?
00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:59.039
Those parts of our brains are much older than our cortex, the part of our brains that are that we typically identify with, right?
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:08.000
We think of we think that we are the narrative that our cortex tells us we are, because that's what the cortex does.
00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:17.919
What the cortex does is it receives this information and then it it coalesces a coherent description of what it sees.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.039
That's that's kind of the role that the cortex takes.
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:35.279
There's it's a big, it's a big organ, there's a lot going on there, but ultimately to to just kind of like bring it to its its key point here, you know, it it it takes all this information and then it tells us a story.
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:36.480
It's the storyteller.
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:42.559
It is and is that just uh not to interrupt you, but is that sort of like what people refer to when they say the lizard brain?
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.039
Or like is this like the our our ancestors would be operating more out of this?
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:47.840
Right.
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.240
So that you okay, so you can interrupt me anytime you want, totally fine.
00:14:52.559 --> 00:15:06.240
But but uh but you bring up a good point, which is this idea of lizard brain, like you know, that there is there's a just very quickly, there's this triune brain model, and I bring this up because it's important to understand the context.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:22.879
The triune brain model is a outdated way of looking at the way that the brain works, okay, because what it did was it kind of like took the different parts of the brain and separated them out and said, like, okay, well, this is your lizard brain and this is your mammal brain and this is your human brain, right?
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:31.440
Where it was the cortex was like the human brain, and like the mammal brain was our limbic system, and then the basal ganglia was the lizard brain.
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.120
You know, it that that is not it's it's helpful.
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:42.960
I do think it's helpful in a sense that it kind of gives you a general idea of the way that these different brain systems operate, because it's true.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:53.279
I mean, like, you know, these older parts of your brain are concerned with emotions, uh, patterns of behavior, uh, social status, those kind of things, right?
00:15:53.440 --> 00:16:13.840
And your cortex, the the newer part of your brain that's about like just a couple million years old, a few million years old, like that part of your brain is the part of your brain that is rational, logical, can abstract, can you can create abstract ideas, can think about time, can plan ahead.
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.000
These are things that the older parts of our brains do not really do.
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:19.120
They don't do that.
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:27.200
The older parts of our brains don't really think about, they don't think about time, they don't think ahead in the way that we can with our cortex, okay?
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:33.919
And this mismatch is where I believe all of our problems were originate.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:41.440
Yeah, I do I really do, and I I think it is a physical, it's it's actually a physical issue that we have.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.799
It's an evolutionary mismatch that we have.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:50.639
It is only a mismatch because of what we've done with the world around us.
00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:51.200
Okay.
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.159
In our natural environment, it's not a mismatch.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.840
It works perfectly.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.399
Because think about it for a second, right?
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:09.680
You got you have like your emotional brain, the older part of your brain that I call the visceral core, and that kind of includes all the older parts of the brain that's been around for hundreds of millions of years.
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:24.079
That part of your brain is absolutely appropriately set up to deal with the natural environment where you don't, you're you're you have to know right away what is happening around you, and you need to immediately respond to it.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:32.720
So if you have a predator that's there in the bushes, you have to, you when you hear it, you have to see it, you have to respond right away.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.960
Because if you don't, you could die.
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.400
You will die, right?
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:37.440
Or you could die.
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.880
And so that that part of your brain is like, I see a threat, I respond to the threat.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:48.240
I see a threat, I respond, I see something that I want, I need, I'm gonna respond to the thing I want or need.
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.640
Meanwhile, you have this cortex.
00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.720
The cortex takes a lot more time to process and to work with the information it gets.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.960
Now, here's the thing that I recently found out that I find crazy.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:10.079
Your cortex, the again, the part of your brain that we identify with, we think this narrative that we're telling ourselves is who we are.
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.000
It is the way that the world is.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:20.640
But here's the thing that information that your cortex is processing gets to the older part of your brain first.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:29.519
And that older part of your brain, Chris, tags the information before it gets to your cortex.
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:39.519
Your cortex, your cortex is dealing not just with the information of the world around you and processing that world, the sensory input, what you're seeing, what you're smelling, what you're hearing.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:47.200
It's also dealing with, it's processing information from the older part of your brain, the visceral core.
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.839
So the visceral visceral core is tagging things.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:55.920
This is this is other, this is a threat, this is a good thing, this is a bad thing, you know.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.640
Um, your body is doing stuff, you're getting tingles on your skin, your your heart is racing.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:08.079
All that information also is coming to your cortex.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:19.119
So your cortex is never dealing with raw information and processing raw information, it's processing all that other stuff that's coming from the brain.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.640
And there's a back and forth.
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:21.920
There is a back and forth, right?
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.519
And this is an important part.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:31.680
And I'm not really going to get into this right now, but that key, that is the key mismatch that I believe is the collapse engine.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.880
Now, I I have to stop and say, does that make sense to you?
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:35.839
Do you follow that?
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.279
How does that sound?
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.440
No, I I think so.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:51.359
I mean, I feel like I and I appreciate what you're telling me about the outdatedness of our brains, because I hear a lot about that, but I'm not well versed in sort of understanding the most recent thinking of how our brains work.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:06.720
Um, but it still sounds to me like there's kind of two important or maybe more, but at least two important sections of our brain that are communicating in some way, but I'm still a little um confused about what the mismatch is.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:13.759
Is it because we only process a certain amount of the information or because we're not aware of that processing?
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.440
So maybe a little bit more about that just to help me get well.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:20.640
Okay.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:31.920
This is why it's it's a mismatch, and I have to kind of expand a little bit more um and to contextualize it because it is again, it's the context that makes it a mismatch.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:44.240
Because again, when we're out in in what would have been our natural environment, which is which you know, I that I don't have to get into that pre-historic kind of pre-civilization environment, that's different.
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:44.640
Okay.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:21:08.880
It's a mismatch because we have created an incredibly complex system of interdependence that our visceral core, so the older parts of our brain are not evolved to be able to manage, handle, or understand.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:09.599
Yeah.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:10.000
Okay.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:19.759
And and so it's uh it's more the mismatch is really kind of between the modern world we've created and the the way that our brain evolved to work.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:20.400
Yes.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.720
Not a mismatch in our our brain.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:30.160
I mean, there is uh there is a right, it's like maybe the internal the internal dynamics are not mismatched.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.720
That the internal dynamics are kind of they're working the way that they're supposed to.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.279
In a in a context, in an older right, it's fine.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.319
And that's you're right.
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.400
Absolutely good, that's a great distinction.
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.039
It's the well, no, it's me just taking a minute to get there.
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:51.839
Well, yeah, but then the the the mismatch really is about what we're expecting from our brains in the modern environment.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.240
That's where the mismatch comes in, right?
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:55.440
That's where the mismatch comes in.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.519
And I want to use climate change as the key example.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.319
Okay.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:01.279
It's awesome.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:12.160
When growing up, okay, I was overwhelmed by what I saw as a willful ignorance, a dismissal of the importance of climate change.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:12.640
Okay.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:25.920
This was like, you know, starting from the 1980s, you know, it just it was I was it was outrageous that something as consequential as what we were doing to the environment and what was happening to the environment was appeared to be ignored.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:31.279
Not only that, that ignorance continued our entire lives, right?
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:32.880
It's gotten worse.
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:33.839
It's gotten worse.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.920
I just finished reading uh you know William Catton's overshoot book.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:43.839
He wrote that in the early 80s, you know, and he and back then he was warning, look, we're it's too much.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:44.720
We can't do this.
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.599
This doesn't work.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.359
And he just, you know, put the numbers out there.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.000
It's brilliant.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:48.480
I love it.
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.000
Everybody should read it.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.240
But this is the mismatch.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.119
The mismatch, let's take a look at climate change.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:04.720
So you have somebody who is, let's say, uh an executive, a CEO of a fossil fuel uh energy uh company.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.279
Okay.
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.279
They are aware of the harm.
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:10.400
They know it.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:18.400
They did studies in the 70s that showed them that climate change was real and the consequences, and they continue to do it anyway.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:37.920
And this really gets to the heart of what the mismatch is about, which is your older, the older parts of your brain do not the older parts of your brain are the parts that actually move you, they are the ones that motivate you, literally.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:51.519
They are the parts of your brain that signal, I'm going to wave my hand, you know, I'm going to hug my loved one, you know, I'm going to like throw a punch at a person who I consider to be a threat.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.279
That is your older brain.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.359
That is not your cortex.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:04.720
Your cortex can recognize these things, understand these things, okay, but your cortex doesn't feel it doesn't generate emotions.
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:12.160
Your cortex, yes, there is a back and forth, but importantly, your cortex does not generate the emotions.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:21.119
It's your visceral core that generates the emotions and actually the drives, oh, I'm hungry, you know, I'm I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I'm turned on.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.359
You know, that's your visceral core.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:23.839
Okay.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.799
And that stuff that's right in front of you is what your visceral core deals with.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:38.640
Your visceral core does not understand a hundred years from now, there's not going to be any, there is there is going to be no more uh species.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.799
We've we've extinguished all these species because of our actions.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.799
Your visceral core does not understand that timescale.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.279
It doesn't work that way, literally.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:49.839
Okay.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:25:09.519
The only way that that kind of that kind of thinking can work is if your cortex generates an an image that it then sends to our visceral core to try and get the visceral core to be motivated to take action.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:10.240
Okay.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:13.279
Now here's the thing.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.000
For that, let's go back to that climate executive.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.400
Okay.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:22.720
That climate executive thinks about billions of people who are going to suffer terribly.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:32.480
He thinks about like the billion, you know, the millions and billions of species that are being eliminated that took millions and millions of years to evolve.
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:48.480
He's thinking about that, but that that thinking is overwhelmed by the visceral core, that that guy's visceral core that says, I'm getting money, I'm getting status, right?
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.759
I'm I am I am I am satisfying these drives.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:06.000
The dopamine is flooding through my head when I think about what I'm going to make the next quarter, how the praise I will get from my board of directors, right?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:19.359
That is what that is what literally is being fired in that person's brain, versus okay, the abstract concepts of billions of people.
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.480
Your visceral core doesn't know from billions.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.400
Doesn't know from billions.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:33.440
Abstractions like that, abstractions like time are not something that your visceral core can relate to.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:34.319
Okay.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:45.279
And so this this that's why I say there's a mismatch because we live in a complex world that has built itself up to be abstract.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.200
To be to be so far removed.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:27:08.160
Like what you need to do to satisfy your visceral core, okay, like I need to get shelter, food, clothes, you know, cultural, uh, you know, cultural position, all that stuff has to be satisfied by abstractions.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:09.759
We're fucked.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:11.039
Wow.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.160
Dude, I get it.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:19.200
I like I I I I see what it's exactly what I wanted to get out of you because now I think I understand it a little bit more.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:27.200
And it makes me wonder um the the abstractions of modernity.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.400
Yes, I get it.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:33.920
We our brains, that part of our brain isn't satisfied because it can't wrap its head around.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:42.799
And so I guess that means in the past, the things in front of us that made us less selfish.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:49.599
I mean, your CEO example is so great because it's like it's the same needs that need to be met.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:28:02.559
It's just we because we can't see the abstractions as meeting those needs, we look for the more benign the money or whatever, the these more easily definable things.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:16.079
But in the past, I you know, I think, and there's a lot of data, I guess, that's say we were more cooperative and more less I mean, I don't I don't I I don't like the word egalitarian, but sort of more egalitarian.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:34.400
And it's so the first thing I think as I as I start to peer into your wisdom a little bit is what's the difference between an abstraction like well, I want my buddy to be happy too, and an abstraction like time or space.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:44.480
I mean, maybe it is time or space, because I've often said humans suck at understanding time beyond like a human lifetime or space beyond like whatever you're doing.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.000
We are bad at that.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:47.200
We are bad at that.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:51.039
And you just explain and you just explain why.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.920
I mean, that's the first, that's the first thing at time where I've like, oh, like light bulb moment went off.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.920
Like it's that mismatch.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:20.400
And and so it's sort of like I guess it I'm looking for like a what we might have been like in the past, what that mismatch, you know, what what the I'm struggling to get there, what the um the the abstractions that we can understand look like, and what is unique about these new abstractions that we just can't quite make meet our needs.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.359
And can we do that?
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:27.200
Well, let's like so I have um I have these three consequences, right?
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:37.519
Or or or three elements of the natural world that where where these brain systems were not mismatched.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:38.960
Okay, perfect.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:44.480
Localization, attribution, and unavoidability.
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:44.960
Okay.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.240
Localization, attribution, and unavoidability.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:49.200
Why?
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.640
Okay, because what I do, what I've been doing is I've been thinking about like how did we get here, right?
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.480
Because this is I feel I feel like this is the fun, this is like the original sin.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.319
And I don't really don't take that, don't take that as a religious statement.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:17.359
But the original sin of our modern world is that you know, we just we think that we just like drew we we uh you know we were uh oh my god, I suck so hard.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:25.279
Like the what's what's the what's the um the story where like you were born on third base and you think he hit a triple, you know?
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:26.319
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:27.519
Like born, well, I think that's it.
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:28.480
Born with a space.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:33.039
Yeah, and you know, and it's like uh, you know, that's our that's our original sin.
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:38.960
Where we just we're just like, okay, well, because I grew up, I normalized this this world, and that's all there is.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:46.079
And it's like, no, it's like we came here, this all evolved, it evolved culturally, it evolved biologically.
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.160
There's a reason that we got here.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.799
And so I'm just like, what is that reason?
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.359
What was the pathway, right?
00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:08.880
Instead of instead of thinking, like, you know, I feel like maybe part of the problem is that we have this, like, this religion that has told us that there's like a kind of like an invisible hand that's kind of like manipulating all this, and so somehow we're just like, oh, well, there's a reason.
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.359
No, there's not a fucking reason, man.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:17.599
It's like like this thing fell on that thing and the other thing fell on the other thing, and then like somebody had a thing, you know.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.000
It's like, what am I gonna do with that thing?
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:21.279
Like, I'm sorry.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:29.920
That's kind of it's not, it's I you know, the the word that I heard the other day was accretion, and I was like, oh shit, like that's it.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.519
We're we're accreted, you know, we're just accreted.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:38.640
We like to like, oh wow, I have culture and I'm so like and I can move and I can dance and I can do stuff.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:47.920
It's like, no, you accre we're accreted, we're accredited, like something something fell on top of another thing, fell on top of another thing, and then it like woke up and said, Hey, this is great.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.200
You know, that's what we are.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.720
Oh my god.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.000
But uh, I'm so there's a lot of I know, I know.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:54.799
I'm so sorry.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:55.839
I'm so sorry.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:56.880
Let me go back.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.440
Let me go back.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:08.240
So I want to go back, and that that was all that was all to the end of me saying, Yeah, well, I looked, I wanted to look back at Homo sapiens, where we started from and how we got here, right?
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:18.319
And so it was like, okay, we we were hominids, we had been hominids that have been working together in small groups for millions of years.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:28.079
So over those millions of years, we've got this larger part of our brain, our cortex, which is which is growing and forming until it gets to be a Homo sapien.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:37.920
And it was it and that and it was growing and forming because you know you had these small, these small tribes of hominids that were working together in these small groups, okay?
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:41.039
They were hunting and gathering, they were doing their thing, right?
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:49.759
And they were surviving because they lived together and worked together intimately.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.720
I want you to, I want you to, oh, this is the thing, right, Chris?
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.240
You like the book Shaman.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.240
I love the book Shaman too, right?
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.039
Why?
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:06.720
Because it got me thinking about the fact that you and I are no different biologically from those hominids that popped out as Homo sapiens.
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:08.559
We we're the same, right?
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.319
So what changed?
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.279
Well, I I don't want to get there yet.
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:14.880
Sorry, I jumped ahead.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:21.920
But but you know, like so we have these we have these small groups where we're working in, okay?
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:28.079
Like, and these are people we're around them all the time, every single day.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:38.000
Imagine being in a small group of like 20 to 20 to 50 people, not even that large, probably, because the the the larger part is probably bands that were nearby, right?
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:44.960
So you have a small group of people, maybe let's say 20, and you know them from the time you're fucking born.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.359
You know these people, you know everything about them.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.119
You see them have sex, they probably have sex in front of you.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.759
You know, you're having sex with them.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.200
It's like, you know, they're there, you know, are you clothed?
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:58.240
I mean, probably not.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:00.160
I don't know why you would be, right?
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:12.960
You know, and you're eating, you're your survivor, your your literal survival, your literal survival is dependent on working together in this group with these people that you are intimately connected with.
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.719
Of course, our brains got really big because why?
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:27.280
Because the culture that arises from those individual nodes of of perspective of of minds, okay, needed to interact.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:34.719
They needed, and so those interactions must have been very complex, they might they were intimate relationships, right?
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:43.519
An important part of that, this is where, and this is where localization, attribution, and unavoidability come in.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:55.119
Because why everybody knew intimately knew that they were working together, they had to work together for their survival, for their survival.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.159
This wasn't optional, this wasn't like a nice to have.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.639
It was like it was a this was their survival, okay, those bands.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:10.320
And if somebody acted in a selfish way or a way that put them at risk, they could see that.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.159
They saw that happening literally because they could literally see it.
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.079
You know, you were not you were not getting that far away from each other.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:21.440
So like they it was they were there, they were right there.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.039
You could see what was going on.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.119
Why do you why did you hoard that?
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.039
Why aren't you sharing that?
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.440
Well, that's and again, and what's the other attribution?
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:44.400
So, first of all, because you're new you're close to a person, you can see what they're doing, and you can attribute it's not ambiguous, it's not abstract, it's not up for it's not up for question.
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:45.760
I saw you steal that thing.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.039
What are you talking about?
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:48.719
Yeah.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.320
Right.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:52.480
It's so it's attributable, okay?
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:54.960
And then you have the lack of of avoidability.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:55.920
You can't get away from it.
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.760
It's like, well, like what I I can't let you get away with this.
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:03.519
Because if you get away with this now, you're putting us at risk.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:10.000
You need you need to know that you either stop this shit or you're gonna get you're gonna get excommunicated, you're out.
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.599
And back then, that meant you were probably gonna die.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:14.880
Right?
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.840
And so people had a really, really high incentive to want to conform to that, right?
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.760
So the idea, so this is this is my kind of like concession to you.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.519
You don't even have to worry about thinking of it as egalitarianism.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.800
You know, this is the thing.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.159
People who are anti-egalitarian call themselves realists.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.000
No, they're just assholes.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:56.079
The realism, the realism is that for like hundreds of millions of years, more than likely, definitely at least a hundred million, 150 million years, human beings were egalitarian by nature because they had to be.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:04.000
That was something that not only was culturally bred into us, but it was also evolutionarily uh bred into us.
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:30.639
I want to go back to Hein uh Henrich and his book A secret or A Secret or The Secret of Our Success, where he really kind of digs into that and he really points out human beings are what what he considers to be our real specialness, or what makes us so unique is the fact that we can teach and learn, that we can pass on information from generation to generation in a way that essentially hacks evolution.
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:32.239
That's what that is.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:49.679
If you're if you're if you're in the natural world and you are an animal that finds a particularly advantageous strategy, okay, that will be passed on through your genes because that's that's a tendency like that you have accreted.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.039
It's just fallen on.
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:51.760
Okay.
00:37:53.039 --> 00:38:12.320
But what what what the human, what the human innovation, like the human uniqueness really was was that it was that we were able to actually do a an end around where we could like pass on these innovations, these changes, these updates without having to wait tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, you know.
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.239
Man, yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:21.119
And you uh just sort of laid it out much more eloquently than I had it in my head.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:21.840
I appreciate that.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.719
You've thank you.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.679
You've helped me work through a couple of things that I they're great.
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.880
I I wait, yeah.
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:42.719
Um, but it's it what makes me think of is natural selection, of course, because I've always speculated that cooperation and living in groups like that occurred because that's what worked, because that's how natural selection works.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:49.760
The groups that were doing that had a higher probability of survivorship and passed their genes on it all.
00:38:50.400 --> 00:39:03.920
And so certainly what we see out there in the world, of course, we can't see it, but we you know, most of the evidence suggests that these bands were beneficial and that living in a group is prefer prefer preferable to living singularly.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:11.440
But it it brings me back to that same question of um of intent, you know.
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:14.960
And you you you mentioned this, I can't remember how you said it.
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.280
We oh, you said we hacked evolution.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:32.320
So it's I have this sort of idea that natural selection became a non-natural selective force when we um with the onset of tools and technology, and this is a classic argument.
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:42.239
It's like it's natural, I'm a natural humans are natural, so if I want to extract all of the oil from the planet and burn it off in one big giant party, then that's natural, right?
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.239
Some people will argue that that's the way it is.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:51.360
Beavers making dams is is natural, but it it fucks up an ecosystem, you know, arguably.
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:56.880
Uh so it's like, are we intentional did are we were we aware of this?
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:08.800
You know, were we aware because it almost sounds like that's what you're suggesting, that we might have been aware that we were hacking evolution and artificially selecting the evolution.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:09.280
Yeah, right.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.119
No, and again versus the LCD.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:13.360
No, thanks for calling thanks for calling me on that.
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:23.920
You know, I'm not calling it no no no, because I tend to I tend to uh go for the low-hanging fruit and the kind of like the the phrase on the movie poster, you know.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:30.239
So like, you know, hacking evolution, you know, that sounds like you know, that sounds like a superhero power, you know.
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.880
So I kind of well that makes you that's what makes you a good writer.
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.400
Well, no, because uh well and I only say that because I've thought about that.
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.440
And I, you know, and I think natural selection isn't we're not aware of it happening.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:55.039
And and and in truth, to go back to something where you mentioned before, it's like I feel like Descartes got a little bit before the horse with this complex, more modern, um, nuanced thinking ability.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.079
We don't, we still haven't mastered that, right?
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:06.880
We still haven't figured out how to fit that into modernity because it still fits into this old system, right?
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:18.559
Uh being the system, the the extrinsic, the external environment has changed and we didn't change with it, or or we didn't figure out how to work in that environment.
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:29.360
So I I guess maybe thoughts on the non-natural part, because why didn't, for example, we keep up with the evolution of modernity?
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:36.719
You know, was it because modernity is non-natural forces that we imposed on the world that shouldn't be there?
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:38.079
Like such an important question.
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:41.280
Well, I mean, what yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:42.400
That's a really important question.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:43.199
Why the ministry?
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.400
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:52.800
No, it's uh it's it's really an important question because I think that it really gets to the heart of you know what what can we do, right?
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:53.599
What can we do?
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:55.840
Who are we and what can we do?
00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:17.119
Because, you know, um and it also it also kind of harkens back to the the was Agent Smith right article because you know um it's also it's I mean it's also kind of sad, Chris, honestly.
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:38.960
Uh you know, when I when I start to really kind of dig into this, it gets really sad because the idea of what it is or isn't natural, you know, and when you look at the world we are living in today, like there is this almost like a noble savage that we want to that we want to kind of like cling on to.
00:42:39.360 --> 00:43:03.519
Um and I I talk about the noble savage in that article and our myth mythologizing of that pre-civilizational uh human where you know we want to kind of believe that like, oh yeah, you know, human beings, man, they used to be just like in touch with nature and they were totally vibing, you know, with the plants and the animals, and it's like we never hurt each other.
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:05.199
No, that's not how it was.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:15.280
Sorry, I hate to break it to you, but yeah, no, Chaka from uh land of the lost well didn't it didn't happen that way, right?
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:32.639
So um, you know, one of the one of the sad things that I found out about when I was like digging into the to the to the archaeological history, the uh the the ancient history stuff is that like you know, human beings before civilization would extinct you know whole animal populations, of course.
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.000
They you know they would come they would come into a new environment.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:43.760
Australia is a great example, or um, and they would just like murder like all these animals and they disappeared.
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:47.920
And there's like, you know, there's there's arguments that, oh, it wasn't all human beings.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.760
It's like, look, bro, you know, yeah, maybe in specific instances there's ambiguous evidence, but when you take it as a whole, you cannot argue the fact when human beings showed up.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:02.239
Animals went extinct.
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.000
Like that's just a fact.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:14.960
And you know, I think that the the the overarching kind of uh I just think that it tells a story that's very that's very clear if we're willing to accept it.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:27.519
And I think that when you look at the way that we operate today in this world, and especially with my collapse engine idea, it seems pretty clear to me that, like, yeah, sorry, that that this idea of a noble savage just doesn't exist.
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:28.800
But what does that mean, Chris?
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:34.559
Going back to your question about natural, not natural, what it means is that this is natural.
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:36.079
This is natural.
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:38.480
This is this is an accretion.
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.360
This is just stuff falling on top of each other.
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.360
And then like we call it a thing because that's what our brains do.
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.360
Our cortex calls a thing something because that's what it does.
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:51.360
But it's yeah, what difference does it make?
00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:00.559
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's like so it's like we are natural and and we're naturally murdering the planet, is what we're doing.
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:19.519
You know, we're we're murdering the the environment that we were born into um because that is the way that we're that's how we are using our naturally evolved biology, you know, and the culture that we created out of that, it is what it is.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:23.760
Like, I don't know what it was that happened that created the agricultural revolution.
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:36.000
I don't know what was that particular, that one moment in time where a group or band went from horticulture to agriculture, where they were just like, we're gonna stay right here.
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.199
I don't know what happened.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:37.840
Why?
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.039
Because that was it.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.800
That was when it ended, that was when everything started to really go downhill.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:45.119
I uh that's that's my that's my theory.
00:45:45.679 --> 00:46:08.239
Well, no, I think I think you know, since you mentioned that, I think people are generally in agreement that that shift, however it happened, because you know, Graeber and Wingro talk a lot about how there were probably hundreds, maybe hundreds of thousands of years where we were going in and out of nomadic and agrarian sort of behavior, but at some point there was a lootable surplus.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:12.639
I think Luke Kemp, uh the guy who wrote a book, make coined that term.
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:25.760
You know, once we had a surplus, not only not only fueled our brains to go through the process you were just talking about with language and you know culture, uh just exponentially, um, but also power.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.159
Right.
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:42.639
Once there was lootable wealth wealth, there was some way of like if you could hoard it, then that created a structure that I think you know kind of what you're saying is was inevitable, not only just inevitable, but but a natural consequence of the way things occurred.
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:47.360
I think I think that's I don't know, fairly well agreed.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:52.559
I'm sure there are alternative explanations, but that seems to be the status quo, the paradigm.
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.320
Well, I think the different elements are there.
00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:08.079
I think that those the the elements of that story are there, but I think like kind of weaving that all together you know in this way, I don't think is necessarily, you know, I don't think you're gonna see it on the uh headline of the New York Times.
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:09.679
I don't think you know what I'm saying?
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.960
Yeah, and it's and it can't be as simple as agriculture, right?
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:36.559
I mean, it's like I remember um when I was writing my PhD dissertation, uh, which was basically trying to include all of the variables I could possibly think of in a model and then parsing out which ones were the most related, with the um the independent variable being uh the biological health of an aquatic ecosystem.
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.880
And what were all the possible things?
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:44.719
And most people would say at the time that the paradigm was agriculture, urban land use.
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:52.239
When you take a forest and humans come in and convert it to a farm or they convert it to a city, all the biota gets fucked.
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:57.440
I mean, and so, but I'm like, yeah, but what's the causal agent?
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:01.599
What are the mechanisms through which these insults are delivered?
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:12.159
And a friend of mine goes, Yeah, you know, if you build a house, the bug in the stream doesn't go, oh shit, there goes the neighborhood, you know, which is kind of the the scene that we're saying now.
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:21.519
It's like, oh, because we decided to grow crops, we got, you know, from my writing, Egypt, or we got um nuclear warheads.
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:23.920
You know, that's not the cause.
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.239
And I think we're at the point where we're sort of digging.
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:27.760
What we're doing here is digging into that.
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.880
Yeah, and I mean it makes it makes sense that you would think that, right?
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.679
I mean, because like you can you can see it looks like, okay, well, this thing happened and then that thing happened.
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:37.360
So, you know, that's the cause.
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:38.960
But what's what how's that go?
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.760
It's like causality isn't like correlation isn't causation.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:47.519
And I think, and that's kind of like the the danger of that kind of thinking.
00:48:47.599 --> 00:49:05.599
And I think this is what we get at with, you know, I think when we start to look at what I'm describing as the dynamic of these small groups versus larger populations and how this kind of translates into where we're at today, I think that's where we start to really see that mechanism.
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:12.480
Like what what are those what are those underlying forces that are driving the stuff that we're seeing?
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:13.119
Right.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.760
Yeah, and I think you've again elegantly laid out several of them today.
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:26.960
But each each iteration of this kind of these kind of discussions, I think gets us closer to understanding uh what happened.
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:52.480
Because I don't I don't know how and and and you know, the the sort of one of the last questions I have for you is how you maintain a positive attitude about this thing, because on the one hand, you know, we're on a we're on a sinking ship and it's it's hard to take all that we've said in any other context besides you know, we're we're shitting where we eat or we're burning down our house or you know, whatever the metaphor is.
00:49:53.039 --> 00:50:01.519
Um but I and and and to a point you made earlier, I used to be very noble savage about this.
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:12.079
You know, I actually thought when I went into the woods where there was still woods, like um in a national forest or something, I actually thought those trees had never been cut.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:22.000
And through my education, I would learn, you know, that some of those trees were only 40, 50 years old and had been clear cut and was a field, you know, and had been harvested many times.
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:22.400
Right.
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:22.800
Yeah.
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:34.159
Uh and so yeah, once once that and I don't think there's any way of going back to some uh naively utopian fantasy of how we used to live.
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:36.480
And that's and that's been an evolution.
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:42.800
I mean, this is only recently for me that I've sort of come to Jesus with these things and sort of said, Oh wait, I've been really wrong.
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:52.000
Uh but it does beg the question of sort of like how do we find the optimism uh to continue moving forward?
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.719
And what you know, what does that look like?
00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:09.280
What does how does understanding who we were help us can it even help us sort of um make the change that changes that might be necessary to get to some future right?
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:12.719
Yeah, as the at the next level of accretion, do we have any controls?
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:20.719
And I, you know, I think that um I I can only speak from my personal perspective as far as that goes.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:27.119
I don't offer any suggestions on what's what next steps are.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:28.159
Like I don't do that.
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:28.719
I can't.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:42.480
I have I have ideas, but I don't offer because I think that what we are what people like you and I are really getting at is something that is incredibly profound.
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:49.119
It is game-changing as far as I'm concerned, and it's something that needs to be really sat with.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:55.760
I think it's something that needs to be meditated on, I think it's something that really needs to be considered and internalized and processed.
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:06.800
Uh and um because in a lot of ways, because for the reason that we were talking about earlier, that I do think that this is natural.
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:08.559
I think this is nature.
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.280
The horrors are part of nature.
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:26.400
I mean, like our brain is capable of un what we would like to think were unimaginable horrors, were uh, but it's also capable of absolutely some sublime achievements, right?
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:32.559
I mean, like being able to, you know, listen to music and to see a sunrise and appreciate music.
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:33.840
Appreciate, yeah, right.
00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:43.199
I mean, it's like really beautiful, wonderful things that operate simultaneously with the the horrors that we are experiencing that we're we're reviewing, right?
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:44.800
So how do we deal with that?
00:52:44.960 --> 00:53:00.320
Well, I think my the what keeps me going is that I'm so excited about this research because I feel like I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to really understanding the operating system, like what our operating system is.
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:08.559
And you know, one when you get to the core code, then you can, you know, you can really kind of like you can work with it and you can't rewrite it.
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:11.519
That's not really what we can't do that, right?
00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:17.760
We we what we can do is we can see how what those programs are, how they work, and what we can do with them.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:32.400
So it's kind of like, you know, for like a for example, is, you know, my personal journey has been I realize that I think of myself as the cortex, right?
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:40.800
I think of myself like I'm I'm this narrative that I have spun over the course of gener like the course of decades.
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:44.880
You know, I am this this story that I told myself.
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:46.639
And it all it's all in here, right?
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:59.280
So I I was thinking as I'm starting to do this research, I'm like, what if I can just get, I can figure out a way where I can my cortex can basically tell my visceral core what to do.
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:01.119
And it's like, dude, stop.
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:01.840
No.
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:09.599
I I the the person who I think I am is no less that visceral core.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:18.639
Because the person that I am are the patterns of behavior, the feelings, the the the impulses that have driven me my whole life.
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.280
Like that's all, that's all who I am.
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:25.199
It's I'm I'm not a narrative of like this is what I should do.
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:26.719
That's a narrative.
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:33.760
That's a that's an arbitrary set of metrics that that were culturally imprinted on me.
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:35.199
That's what that is.
00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.960
And and it's not as important as we think it is.
00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:46.719
You know, my my goal right now is to like really embrace and appreciate that older part of my brain.
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:52.880
And to and also to recognize that the value systems that I have are not are not natural.
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.119
They're they're not like they're not written in stone, they're not handed down from God.
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.199
They are they are accepted value systems, right?
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:10.960
And and it's like, you know, one of the things that I'm kind of like that I've really kind of comforted myself with is to consider alternative value systems.
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:29.840
Like, for example, Chris, you know, I'm like, well, you know, what if instead of thinking about like liberal, like the liberal good and bad kind of ideas and metrics, um, what if I instead kind of like experiment with the thought of what's the carrying capacity of the planet?
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:30.400
Right.
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:39.599
And like what would what would that carrying capacity be with human beings and what you know and at what level of technology, right?
00:55:39.679 --> 00:56:00.079
You know, and like kind of thinking about like, okay, well, maybe instead of instead of you know having some kind of like a culturally, a culturally created metric or moral, maybe I can start thinking about things in a in a in the the same way that I've been investigating like the the collapse engine.
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:04.320
You know, it's like what what is it that that we're here for?
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:09.039
Like going back to like my very original kind of inspiration, like what is life?
00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:11.119
Like, how did we how did we get here?
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.679
You know, and like what does that what does that really mean?
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:26.000
And I feel like that that is really where uh what I'm getting at with this, with this interrogation of like our brains and culture and how it works together, how we got here, why we make the decisions that we do.
00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:42.400
And it's giving me this, it's giving me this opportunity to really kind of like reevaluate like what what's important, what matters to me, what's important to like my community, what my community is, what it means to be like a steward of nature.
00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:46.800
You know, that's a big thing for me, is like stewardship, sustainability.
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:48.800
What does sustainability mean?
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:50.159
Is that important to me?
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:51.280
Why is it important to me?
00:56:51.360 --> 00:57:09.760
You know, it's like these are the these are the things like I feel like we've basically built a whole world on a foundation of air, a foundation of like marshmallows, you know, and I and I feel like what what I'm doing is I'm trying to really say like where's the ground?
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:10.960
What's the fundament?
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:15.599
You know, like like Sapolski likes to say like it's turtles all the way down.
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:31.920
And uh, you know, but but even that it's like okay, well, I just I want to know what if if I can see those turtles, like even though it's it's a layer built on layer, like okay, that's fine.
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:56.960
But I would like to actually kind of like basically say, like, at a certain point, I'm gonna go back to a particular layer and see the way that those layers built on each other, and I'm gonna try and kind of maybe I can build a moral core that is that is that is in alignment with with the way that things have have moved and matured naturally.
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:06.400
I don't know if that sounds like the the ramblings of a unibomber or not, but that no, you know what that sounded like that whole end part was one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:23.039
It sounds like a manifesto, like um, like a recipe for the next step between one sitting with it and not which I do, I'm very guilty of not doing, and sort of jumping to a dopamine driven conclusion of some sort.
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:24.480
Like, I need the answer.
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:30.000
I mean, I think the first step is if you're doing that, you probably should that should be like a red flag.
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:30.400
Yes.
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:32.239
Like, okay, you need to stop doing that.
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:33.760
And why do you need to stop doing that?
00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:36.079
It's because you need to listen more.
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:46.079
Uh, and then yeah, I mean, what everything that you said that followed that, I thought was at least four or five additional hour-long discussions.
00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:46.800
Wow.
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:48.079
And I'm glad we have it.
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:49.599
That is really moving, man.
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:50.800
Thank you so much for saying that.
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:51.280
I appreciate it.
00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:54.719
I I I mean, I've I mean, it was like I was watching an artist paint.
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:56.480
I mean, I don't know how you did that.
00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:58.320
Um, yeah, that was really cool.
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.440
And I and I'm really glad that we have it.
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:05.280
Uh, and I think it's a good place to end because it was so eloquent.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:07.440
I think people should sit with what you said.
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:13.679
Although my um intuition is to want to dig into all of it, you know, piece by piece.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.079
Can I like can I comment on that really quick?
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:26.480
Yeah, because I did I actually have another sub my first substack post that I posted was about how Madame Curie or Marie Curie uh is my is my house cat.
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:28.800
And this is what I mean.
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.199
My house cat drives me crazy.
00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:31.599
Okay.
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:33.280
I got her up the street.
00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:36.400
She insisted on she come on coming home with me, and I gave in.
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.079
She totally she got me.
00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:42.159
I brought her home, and she is out of control.
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:44.480
Like she runs everywhere all the time.
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:48.000
All the shit, I gotta tell you, there's food everywhere.
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:53.119
You would not know it, but according to her, there is food everywhere, and she's gonna find it.
00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:55.519
Okay, and so she's like, oh, is it?
00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:01.599
She's like crying, she's like and running and and knocking things over, making me crazy.
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:18.719
And you know, I and I first I for some god-awful reason, I suddenly thought of Marie Curie and the and the way that you know she was determined to kind of like find out about radium, you know, radium was her thing, man.
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:23.280
And so she was just like, I'm gonna figure it out, figure it out, figure it out, figure out where is it, where is it?
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:25.760
And and it killed her, right?
01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:27.199
I mean, you know what happened, right?
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:33.760
It's like she totally it murdered her because she was just what was more important to her than her her safety, right?
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:38.000
Was that she was gonna dig into that whatever it was, man.
01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:43.039
And you know, and I think that's maybe that's part of our I think maybe that's just part of life.
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:51.119
Like I feel like that's kind of life, and when I look at when I look at my cat Mouse, I call her Mouse, you know, that's what I see.
01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:53.599
I see Mary, I see Marie Curie, right?
01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:56.960
I see Curie kind of like, I'm digging, I'm looking, I'm looking.
01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:57.599
Where is it?
01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:06.480
It doesn't matter whether there's it's there or not, she's just got to keep looking, you know, and even if it means that she's gonna like she ends up killing herself.
01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:10.480
My I mean, my cat, Jesus, you see the things that she knocks over makes me nuts.
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:12.719
But it's that kind of thing, right?
01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:15.519
Where it's just like we're driven, we're driven, we're driven.
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.880
You know, we need to keep looking, we need to keep looking.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.480
That's awesome.
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.119
Jag rabbit, I don't know what to say.
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:25.760
Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom with us.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.199
Oh, it's my pleasure, man.
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:27.599
Thank you.
01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:28.719
Uh thank you, Chris.
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:37.519
I mean, I really I'm so grateful to you for like you know wanting to talk, and I feel like this is a wonderful conversation, and I'm I'm I'm just feel really blessed.
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:40.480
And um, yeah, I look forward to the next one.
01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:45.199
Thank you for listening to the 10,000 year problem.
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:47.039
I'm Chris Bercher.
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:58.159
Here you'll find weekly interviews rotating with solo episodes about who we were 10,000 years ago so we can understand who we are now and who we want to be in the future.
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:07.039
If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to the podcast and visit our Substack at the 10,000 Year Problem for longer form essays on these subjects and more.
01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.760
10,000 Years brought us here.
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:13.280
The next chapter is ours to write.