Carla: One husband, one wife. Both true cry fans. A different case every episode. One terrifying story at a time. I'm Carla. And I'm Phil. Welcome to Terrifying and Twisted.
Phil: One husband, one wife. Both True Cry fans. A different case every episode. One terrifying story at a time. I'm Carla. And I'm Phil. Welcome to Terrifying and Twisted.
Carla: welcome back to episode thirteen. What did people think of episode twelve? Did you think it was self defence? We had a good chat after that, didn't we? Yeah. About where the line is crossed. Like I said in that episode, it's difficult and it must be difficult for prosecutors and defence lawyers.
Phil: welcome back to episode 13. What did people think of episode 12? Did you think it was self-defense? We had a good chat after that, we? Yeah. About where the line is crossed. Like I said in that episode, it's difficult and it must be difficult for prosecutors and defence lawyers.
Carla: 'Cause you're basically there trying to argue that this person's reality could possibly not be true. Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? So anyway, yeah, it g it sparked a good conversation between me and you. Yeah, it did. we filmed this one straight after Episode twelve. So we haven't really got much to speak about. Yeah, you're gonna say we ain't got out to report. Try not to bang the mic.
Phil: Cause you're basically there trying to argue that this person's reality could possibly not be true. It's hard, isn't it? So anyway, gets back to good conversation between me and you. it did. We filmed this one straight after episode 12. So we haven't really got much to speak about. Yeah, you're going to say we haven't got much to report. Trying not to bang the mic.
Carla: So we can just jump straight into this one. Shot and sweet. Yeah. That alright? Yep. Is that okay? You haven't got much choice. So this is the case read about Thomas Perez Junior.
Phil: So we can just jump straight into this one. Short and sweet. Yeah. Is all right? that okay? You haven't got much choice. So this is the case read about Thomas Perez Jr. August 7th 2018 It's late at night, a quiet neighbourhood in Fontana, California which is 50 miles away from Los Angeles Most people are inside their homes, the streets are quiet a 71 year old man steps outside with the family dog Margo
Carla: August 7, 2018. It's late at night, a quiet neighborhood in Fontana, California, which is fifty miles away from Los Angeles. Most people are inside their homes, the streets are quiet. somewhere in that neighborhood, a 71-year-old man steps outside with the family dog, Margot. And this is between 9 30 and 10 PM at night. It was supposed to be a quick walk, let the dog do her business, and then back home. Only
Phil: and this is between 9.30 and 10pm at night. It was supposed to be a quick walk, let the dog do her business and then back home. Only...
Carla: Only Thomas Perez Sr. doesn't arrive back home. Margot does. He does not. Okay, so the old man doesn't, but the dog does. This is Thomas Perez Sr. Okay. Thomas Perez Jr. shared a house with his elderly father, Thomas Perez Sr. At first Thomas Jr. didn't assume the worst of his dad been missing. Maybe he'd stopped to speak to someone or Margot had got loose.
Phil: Only Thomas Perez Sr doesn't arrive back home. Margot does. He does not. Okay, so the old man doesn't but the dog does. This is Thomas Perez Sr. Okay. Thomas Perez Jr. shared a house with his elderly father, Thomas Perez Sr. At first, Thomas Jr. didn't assume the worst of his dad been missing. Maybe it stopped to speak to someone or Margot got loose. But as hours passed and time went on, Thomas Perez Jr. decided to phone the police and report his father missing. Now this was on August the 8th, nearly 17 hours since he'd last seen his dad. So he waited 17 hours? Thomas Jr. was 53 and recently been through a divorce. So he moved back in with his dad.
Carla: As hours passed and time went on, Thomas Perez Jr. decided to phone the police and report his father missing. Now this was on August the eighth, nearly seventeen hours since he'd last seen his dad. So he waited seventeen hours? Thomas Jr. was fifty-three and recently been through a divorce. So he'd moved back in with his dad. And this med sense will he get back got back on his feet. Yep. When officers arrive at their address, they begin speaking with Thomas Jr. As they are getting information from the Sun, the officers feel as though something's slightly off. He didn't seem too concerned and also kept waffling about other topics, and this includes when he calls to report his father missing.
Phil: and this medsense will he get back got back on his feet? When officers arrive at their address, they begin speaking with Thomas Jr. As they are getting information from the son, the officers feel as though something's slightly off. He didn't seem too concerned and also kept waffling about other topics, and this includes when he calls to report his father missing.
Carla: Officers want to establish what has happened to Thomas Sr. and quickly. When had he left? Where had he gone? Who'd seen him and had something happened? What had Thomas Jr. been doing inside this time? The kind of questions police asked for a missing person investigation. Then the focus started to shift. It wasn't just where is Thomas Sr.
Phil: Officers want to establish what has happened to Thomas Senior and quickly. When had he left? Where had he gone? Who'd seen him and had something happened? What had Thomas Junior been doing inside this time? The kind of questions police ask for a missing person investigation. Then the focus started to shift. It wasn't just where is Thomas Senior.
Carla: It's what has happened to Thomas Sr. Okay. Police begin looking through the house and what they found concerned them. Parts of the house was a mess, specifically his father's bedroom. They noticed some of Thomas Sr.'s belongings weren't where they expected them to be. His phone was inside of the house and so was his wallet. The mattress from his father's bed was missing.
Phil: It's what has happened to Thomas senior. Police begin looking through the house and what they found concerned them. Parts of the house was a mess. Specifically his father's bedroom. They noticed some of Thomas senior's belongings weren't where they expected them to be. His phone was inside of the house and so was his wallet. The mattress from his father's bed was missing. Why do they always do that? A shower curtain was missing. Are you joking there? Some of Thomas Senior's clothes were in a pile, which Thomas Junior explained had taken some of his father's clothes to goodwill. to the walls in his father's bedroom.
Carla: Why do they always do that? A shower curtain was missing. Are you joking there? Some of Thomas Sr.'s clothes were in a pile, which Thomas Jr. explained he'd taken some of his father's clothes to Goodwill. Also, there was some damage to the walls in his father's bedroom. Police were obviously growing more and more suspicious as Tom also had cuts and bruises on his body. Rightly so. Tom said he got these from working on the house. Also discovered in this house were smears and spatters of dried blood. Some of it were at the foot of the stairs.
Phil: police robin's we're going more and more suspicious is tom also had cuts and bruises on his body right now tom said he got these from working on the house also discovered in this house was smears and spas of dried blood some of it were at the fall of the stairs
Carla: Thomas Jr. said that this was down to his father's finger prick diabetes tests and other small accidents around the house.
Phil: Thomas Jr said that this was down to his father's finger prick diabetes tests and other small accidents around the house.
Carla: Thomas Jr. was requested to go to Fontana Police Department to provide a statement. Police then continue searching his house because if this was a murder, where's the body? They had blood, they had suspicious circumstances,
Phil: Thomas Jr. was requested to go to Fontana Police Department to provide a statement. Police then continue searching his house because if this was a murder, where's the body? They had blood, they had suspicious circumstances,
Carla: They have an elderly missing man and they have that man's son sitting in front of them. They believed the answers were gonna be in that interrogation room. They just needed Thomas Jr. to provide those answers. He was in that interrogation room with detectives Robert Miller and Jeremy Hale. Thomas Jr. in this room spoke about possible places his dad could be.
Phil: They have an elderly missing man and they have that man's son sitting in front of them. They believed the answers were going to be in that interrogation room. They just needed Thomas Jr. to provide those answers. He was in that interrogation room with Detectives Robert Miller and Jeremy Hale. Thomas Jr. in this room spoke about possible places his dad could be.
Carla: His father's brother's house or Thomas's sister's house in Oakland. While he was in this room, police were continuing to search his house and speak to people in the neighbourhood. Neighbours report in that they'd seen the migraine quite a few times. Also reported Thomas Jr. reversing his truck up to the garage doors in the early morning hours. That's convenient, isn't it? How many times have we seen that?
Phil: his father's brother's house, or Thomas's sister's house in Oakland. While he was in this room, police were continuing to search his house and speak to people in the neighborhood. Neighbors report in that they had seen them arguing quite a few times. Also reported Thomas Jr. reversing his truck up to the garage doors in the early morning hours. That's convenient, it? How many times have seen that?
Carla: When I read that all I thought of was Chris Watts. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't gonna say his name, I was gonna come up with some other fucking name, but yeah. Because he don't deserve any fucking airtime, but yeah. Whilst carrying on searching this house, police fetched in their trained police canine dog. Which picked up the scent of a recent presence of a human body in the bedroom of Thomas Sr.
Phil: When I read that all I thought of was... Chris Watts? Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to say his name, I was going to come up with some other fucking name, but yeah. Because he doesn't deserve any fucking airtime, but yeah. Whilst carrying on searching this house, police fetched in their trained police canine dog, which picked up the scent of a recent presence of a human body in the bedroom of Thomas Sr.
Carla: Now the tone's changed, 'cause police now have some sort of theory. And believe Thomas Jr. knows more than he's claiming. The questions are now more direct to him. Where's your dad? Have you hurt him? Have you argued? Eventually they stop beating around the bush and tell him they believe he's killed his father, and they want answers.
Phil: Now the tone has changed as police now have some sort of theory and believe Thomas Jr knows more than he's claiming. The questions are now more direct to him. Where's your dad? Have you hurt him? Have you argued? Eventually they stop beating around the bush and tell him they believe he's killed his father and they want answers. So by nearly five o'clock in the morning, he's been sat in this interrogation room for over 17 hours with no lawyer. Then comes a shift change and detectives David Janis and Kyle Guffrey take over interrogations. Did he not request a lawyer?
Carla: So by nearly five o'clock in the morning he's been sat in this interrogation room for over seventeen hours with no lawyer. Then comes a shift change and detectives David Janis and Carl Guffrey take over interrogations. Did he not request a lawyer? Well, most not I don't 'cause th they're not gonna refuse one are they? Thomas Junior
Phil: Well, he must not have done because they're not gonna refuse one, are they? Thomas Jr.
Carla: was on medication for his mental health and he was concerned about taking his meds.
Phil: was on medication for his mental health and he was concerned about taking his meds.
Carla: So the theory came, perhaps the meds had played a part, maybe he had lost control, maybe he had killed his father and not remembered it.
Phil: So the theory came, perhaps the meds had played a part. Maybe he had lost control, maybe he had killed his father and not remembered it.
Carla: The following morning he was taken from the police station into a car. The detectives drove him round Fontana to different locations, places they believe he could have taken his father.
Phil: The morning he was taken from the police station into a car. The detectives drove him round Fontana to different locations, places they believe he could have taken his father.
Carla: At one point they passed a small pond on a golf course and Thomas Jr. asked randomly if bodies float. They keep driving, hoping he's gonna say more and more, and after a while he started to complain about feeling more and more unwell, asking for his meds, asking to go to hospital.
Phil: At one point they passed a small pond on a golf course and Thomas Jr. randomly if bodies float. They keep driving hoping he's going to say more and more and after a while he started to complain about feeling more and more unwell asking for his meds, asking to go to hospital.
Carla: So obviously they think he's just tryna get out of this and going to hospital is a way out of him being questioned by the police. Yeah, because they'd have to stop interrogating him if he gets admitted. They're taking back to the station, back into the interrogation room. Detectives get back to work and now they have something else. They wanted Thomas Jr. to accept the possibility that his father's dead.
Phil: So obviously they think he's just trying to get out of this and going to hospital is a way out of him being questioned by the police. Yeah, because they'd have to stop interrogating him if he gets admitted. They're taking back to the station, back into the interrogation room. Detectives get back to work and now they have something else. They want a Thomas Jr. to accept the possibility that his father's dead.
Carla: They told him they have evidence, they told him they knew what happened, and they told him you killed him. It's not we think you did it, it's we know. They told him that they found his father stabbed to death and that they knew he was responsible. So did they just blatantly lie to him? You killed him, and now he's dead. One of the detectives tell him the meds are probably the reason you don't remember.
Phil: They told him they have evidence, they told him they knew what happened and they told him you killed him. It's not we think you did it, it's we know. They told him that they found his father stabbed to death and that they knew he was responsible. So did they just blatantly lie to him? You killed him and now he's dead. One of the detectives tell him the meds are probably the reason you don't remember.
Carla: By then Thomas Jr. starts becoming emotional and confused, saying, I don't think I did. That's that's not allowed. Then they fetch in his friend Carl to help. He knows him well. I believe he's his business partner. Before he goes to speak to Thomas Jr.
Phil: By then Thomas junior starts becoming emotional and confused saying I don't think I did. That's not allowed. Then they fetch in his friend Carl to help. He knows him well I believe he's his business partner. Before he goes to speak to Thomas junior.
Carla: They tell Carl that we've we've got evidence, we believed he's killed his father and they need help getting a confession.
Phil: They tell Carl that we've got evidence, we believe he's killed his father and they need help getting a confession.
Carla: He was allowed in the room alone with him while police watched on. And Carl tells him they've got you on murder. Carl says that they've got the evidence to charge you. So even though he's confused and exhausted, Thomas Jr. feels like the walls are closing in. The detectives resume their interrogation as his friend.
Phil: He was allowed in the room alone with him while police watched on. And Carl tells him, they've got you on murder. Carl says that they've got the evidence to charge you. So even though he's confused and exhausted, Thomas Jr. feels like the walls are closing in. The detectives resume their interrogation as his friend.
Carla: Come in had failed to get that confession, so they know they need to try something else.
Phil: coming had failed to get that confession so they know they need to try something else.
Carla: This is when it gets even more fucked up. So what they do is they bring Margot, the dog, into the station. The family dog. The dog that went out with his father and came back alone. And when he sees Margot, he breaks down in tears. Margot's family to him, and police note that. They tell him Margot witnessed what he did to his father, and she's probably traumatised. That there was blood on Margot's paws.
Phil: This is when it gets even more fucked up. So what they do is they bring Margo the dog into the station, the family dog. The dog that went out with his father and came back alone. And when he sees Margo, he breaks down in tears. Margo's family to him and police know that. They tell him Margo witnessed what he did to his father and she's probably traumatized. That there was blood on Margo's paws.
Carla: They tell him she will never recover, so they have no choice but to put her down. Fuck off. And take her to a local shelter. They told him he could have a minute with Margot and to say goodbye. Now I think at this point they have some sort of theory to do with scissors and him stabbing his dad to death with scissors. But that is all it is, is a theory.
Phil: They tell him she will never recover so they have no choice but to put her down. Fuck off. And take her to a local shelter. They told him he could have a minute with Margo and say goodbye. Now I think at this point they have some sort of theory to do with scissors and him stabbing his dad to death with scissors. But that is all it is, is a theory.
Carla: Now Thomas Junior is becoming more emotionally distressed, pulling at his hair, crying and screaming. The questions, of course, do not stop. Eventually he expresses guilt, apologizing to his father and sister, and seems to be accepting responsibility for his father's death. And the police believe they've got their breakthrough. This ain't gonna stand up to shit. Then he's left alone.
Phil: Now Thomas Jr is becoming more emotionally distressed, pulling at his hair, crying and screaming. The questions, of course, do not stop. Eventually expresses guilt, apologising to his father and sister, and seems to be accepting responsibility for his father's death. And the police believe they've got their breakthrough. This ain't gonna stand up to shit. Then he's left alone.
Carla: The room's quiet. His father's dead. He's done it. Margot's gonna be put down. Then Thomas Jr. makes a decision. He removes his shoelace and tries to take his own life. They restrain him and place him under arrest. Given the state of him, they hold him under a mental health hold to be detained for 72 hours while he had a psychiatric evaluation.
Phil: The room's quiet. His father's dead. He's done it. Margot's gonna be put down. Then Thomas Jr. makes a decision. He removes his shoelace and tries to take his own life. They restrain him and place him under arrest. Given the state of him, they hold him under a mental health hold to be detained for 72 hours while he had a psychiatric evaluation.
Carla: And then a phone call comes in. And suddenly it all changes. Because Thomas Sr. is well and alive. What? He's not lying somewhere in a shallow grave. He's not been stabbed. And he's definitely not dead. Very much alive. The man that they spent hours telling Thomas he murdered was at Los Angeles Airport.
Phil: And then a phone call comes in. And suddenly it all changes. Because Thomas Sr. is well and alive. What? He's not lying somewhere in a shallow grave. He's not being stabbed. And he's definitely not dead. Very much alive. The man that they spent hours telling Thomas he murdered was at Los Angeles airport.
Carla: He'd gone to visit a friend and then on to visit his daughter, suggested by Thomas Jr. Completely unaware of what was happening back at home, unaware that his son had been sat in an interrogation room for over 17 hours, unaware that his son was accused of his murder,
Phil: He'd gone to visit a friend and then on to visit his daughter, suggested by Thomas Jr. Completely unaware of what was happening back at home. Unaware that his son had been sat in an interrogation room for over 17 hours. Unaware that his son was accused of his murder.
Carla: and completely unaware that his son had been pushed into confessing to his.
Phil: and completely unaware that his son had been pushed into confessing to his death. I'm so confused. This had me shouting at the radio when I listened to this. And it said that this phone call came before they sent Thomas Jr. to the side ward.
Carla: Deaf. I'm so confused. This had me shouting at the radio when I listened to this. And it said that this phone call came before the sent Thomas Jr. to the side quad. D I've got I've got so many fucking questions. Ask So Right, number one.
Phil: I've got I've got so many fucking questions. Ask them. right number one
Carla: Wouldn't the first place to check for a missing person? Would they have not have did you ring the daughter to see if you were due there? Did you ring the daughter to see if you were there? Did you l it's not hard to check if somebody's bought a ticket and boarded a plane with a passport? Did they not check none of this? Evidently not. Imagine if he'd have been successful in killing himself.
Phil: Wouldn't the first place to check for a missing person, would they have not? Did you ring the door to see if you were due there? Did you ring the door to see if you were there? Did you? It's not hard to check if somebody's bought a ticket and boarded a plane with a passport. Did they not check none of this? Evidently not. Imagine if he'd have been successful in killing himself.
Carla: Imagine.
Phil: imagine. and he then rang before the adim admitted under the mental elf hold surely that phone call should have stopped everything nope
Carla: And he then rang before they had him admitted under the mental health hold. Surely that phone call should have stopped everything. No. And not forgetting this were over the space of like seventeen hours it it wasn't days and days and days. That doesn't make it fucking okay. No, it certainly don't make it okay. But they've from what I heard and what I read, it were a case of there's that there, there's that there, there's that there, you've done it. I'll be honest, as soon as you mentioned no mattress and a fucking shower curtain missing, my head straight went to the usual. Well you've killed him on his bed and That's why this is
Phil: And not forgetting this were over the space of like 17 hours. It wasn't days and days and days. That doesn't make it fucking okay. No, it certainly don't make it okay. But from what I heard and what I read, it were a case of, there's that there, there's that there, there's that there. You've done it. I'll be honest. As soon as you mentioned no mattress and a fucking shower curtain missing, my head straight went to the usual. Well, you've killed him on his bed. That's why this is
Carla: Such a good case, Reed. You've killed him on the bed and used a shower curtain to wrap his body up. So you've been interrogated for hours, you've been told your father's dead, told that you've killed him, told that your dog witnessed it and had to be put down. You've been med to believe your life is over and you've rich reached such a desperate mental state, you've tried to take your own life. But if Thomas Jr. hadn't killed his father
Phil: such a good case read. You've killed him on the bed and used a shower curtain to wrap his body up. So you've been interrogated for hours, you've been told your father's dead, told that you've killed him, told that your dog witnessed it and had to be put down, you've been made to believe your life is over and you've reached such a desperate mental state, you've tried to take your own life. But if Thomas Jr hadn't killed his father...
Carla: Why would he confess? We know why. Because he was broke down. But if to there was video and audio of hours of interrogation, and Thomas had said things that sounded like admissions of guilt. He had apologised and tried to reconstruct what might have happened. He had accepted possibilities detectives put towards him.
Phil: Why would he confess? We know why. Because he was broke down. There was video and audio of hours of interrogation and Thomas had said things that sounded like admissions of guilt. He had apologised and tried to reconstruct what might have happened. He had accepted possibilities detectives put towards him.
Carla: To someone watching a few minutes of this, it could look like a confession. But the circumstances were different. He had been questioned for over seventeen hours, repeatedly told his father's dead, they had evidence against him, told his medication might have caused him to hurt his dad and not remember.
Phil: To someone watching a few minutes of this, it could look like a confession, but the circumstances were different. He had been questioned for over 17 hours, repeatedly told his father's dead, they had evidence against him, told his medication might have caused him to hurt his dad and not remember.
Carla: But when we talk about false confessions, it usually partners up with psychological pressure. 100%. And if you're repeatedly, for seventeen hours, being told you did it, you did it, we've got evidence, we know you've done it, you're gonna start questioning your own brain. And isn't there s isn't there something in America where the police can sorta twist it? Yeah.
Phil: But when we talk about false confessions, it usually partners up with psychological pressure. 100%. And if you're repeatedly for 17 hours being told, you did it, you did it, we've got evidence, we know you've done it, you're gonna start questioning your own brain. And isn't there something in America where the police can sort of twist it? Yeah.
Carla: I don't know exactly how far I d I I I don't think to that extent. I think that's way beyond like what I thought was gonna come from this is that dad was gonna be murdered, but there's no way that any of this would have stood up in court at all because of
Phil: I don't know exactly how far, I don't think to that extent. I think that's way beyond, like what I thought was gonna come from this is that dad was gonna be murdered, but there's no way that any of this would have stood up in court at all because of.
Carla: the unethics behind the interrogation and the emotional manipulation. But people have been charged for murders without a body before. I don't mean without the body. I just mean the way in which, like, you've got his best friend. You've lied to his best friend and said that we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. He's exhausted. He's exhausted. He's got no lawyer. He's got no lawyer. He also requir he obviously relies on
Phil: the unethics behind the interrogation and the emotional manipulation. But people have been charged for murders without a body before. I don't mean without the body. I just mean the way in which like you've got his best friend, you've lied to his best friend and said that we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. He's exhausted. He's got no lawyer. He's got no lawyer. also requires, he obviously relies on
Carla: Medication, ment did it say what is what mental health medication? Like is it psych psychotic medication? Is it the thing with his dog? The d so many unethical things. Tell him that they're gonna put down his dog. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, continue. Thomas Junior wasn't prepared to walk away after what happened. So in two thousand nineteen he filed a federal lawsuit against the city of Fontana and officers.
Phil: medication meant did it say what is what mental health medication like is it psych psychotic medication is it the thing with his dog there are so many unethical things tell him that they're to put down his dog yeah anyway sorry continue thomas jr wasn't prepared to walk away after what happened so in 2019 he filed a federal lawsuit against the city of fontana and offices
Carla: His lawsuit alleged that detectives had used coercive tactics to obtain his confession. The interrogation had caused him severe emotion and psychological distress. The city disagreed. Cause they did. Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him. Side note, I read somewhere that this
Phil: His lawsuit alleged that detectives had used coercive tactics to obtain his confession. The interrogation had caused him severe emotion and psychological distress. The city disagreed. Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him. Side note, I read somewhere that this...
Carla: trained canine dog wasn't actually part of the police. I think I read something Did they just bring somebody else somebody's pet dog in? Yeah, some fork off. I'm sure I read something like that.
Phil: trained canine dog wasn't actually part of the police. think I read some of it. Did it just bring somebody else? Somebody's pet dog in? Yeah. I'm sure I read something like that.
Carla: Where where were we up to? Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him, pointing towards the evidence they had found during the investigation. The holes in the wall in his bedroom and the bedroom were were a mess. Mattress had gone, shower curtain had gone, blood at feet upstairs, car reversing up at late at night.
Phil: Where are up to Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they are legit reasons to suspect him pointing towards the evidence They had found during the investigation The holes in the wall in his bedroom the bedroom were a mess mattress had gone shower curtain had gone blood at feet at stairs Car reversing up at late at night
Carla: The case eventually got to federal courts. Some of Thomas's claims were dismissed and other claims were not. The city continued to deny wrongdoing and eventually the settlement was reached. In 2024, the city of Fontana agreed to pay close to $900,000. But one thing was clear.
Phil: The case eventually got to federal courts. Some of Thomas's claims were dismissed and other claims were not. The city continued to deny wrongdoing and eventually the settlement was reached. In 2024, the city of Fontana agreed to pay close to $900,000. But one thing was clear.
Carla: The settlement wasn't an admission of wrongdoing. The city did not admit their officers had violated the law and continued to dispute Thomas Jr.'s allegations. It was just the end of a civil legal battle. Sir Thomas Perez Jr. walked into a police station because he wanted help finding his father. He left that interrogation.
Phil: The settlement wasn't an admission of wrongdoing. The city did not admit their officers had violated the law and continued to dispute Thomas Jr.'s allegations. It was just the end of a civil legal battle. Sir Thomas Perez Jr. walked into a police station because he wanted help finding his father. He left that interrogation. believing it killed him. It had been questioned for over 17 hours. It had been pushed to the point of psychological collapse. It attempted suicide and then the truth arrived. His father was alive. The confession was meaningless and the murder never happened.
Carla: Believing it killed him. It'd been questioned for over seventeen hours. It'd be pushed to the point of psychological collapse. He'd attempted suicide, and then the truth arrived. His father was alive. The confession was meaningless, and the murder never happened. That has blown Six, seven, eight, nine. That's ten pages. That has blown And that's gone so quick. That has blown my mind because I did not see that coming. Yeah. I genuinely when you spoke about I know I've said it, but the mattress, the blood And that's exactly how I heard it when I heard it for the first time. Like you would genu you would just expect this to be going down a road of murder, wouldn't ya? Yeah.
Phil: Six, seven, eight, nine, that's 10 pages. And that's gone so quick. That has blown my mind because I did not see that coming. I genuinely, when you spoke about, I know I've said it, but the mattress, the blood. And that's exactly how I heard it when I heard it for the first time. Like you would just expect this to be going down a road of murder, wouldn't you? Yeah. I've got so many unanswered questions though, so.
Carla: I've got so many unanswered questions though. So Wha why would his d why would his dad not just tell him that he would go in to see his sister? Why from what I read, I don't I think 'cause they live together, they want exactly the best of friends, they might have clashed a little bit. Right. Bearing in mind his dad was seventy one years old, so he might not have been as switched on as a fifty year old, maybe. Because my first thing well
Phil: Why would his dad not just tell him that he would go in to see his sister? From what I read, don't... I think because they live together, they're one of exactly the best of friends. They might have clashed a little bit. Right. Bearing in mind, his dad was 71 years old, so he might not have been as switched on as a 50-year-old, maybe. Yeah. Because my first thing, well, we'll...
Carla: His phone. He didn't take his phone. Did he take his phone, didn't take his wallet? No. And it just it just left his dog. So
Phil: His phone. He didn't take his phone. Did he take his phone or his wallet? No. And he just left his dog. So...
Carla: So he had just took the dog out for a walk at like half past nine at night. And then just And then just disappeared. Yeah. And then just decided to go to Maybe it was just a spur at moment thing where he just thought, if they had been arguing, like somebody said they'd been arguing, if they had been arguing and he'd suggested, why don't you go see your daughter, my sister?
Phil: So we had just took the dog out for a walk at like half past nine at night. And then just disappeared. Yeah, and then just decided to go to... Maybe it was just a spirit moment thing where he just thought if they had been arguing, like somebody said they'd been arguing, if they had been arguing and he'd suggested, why don't you go see your daughter, my sister?
Carla: He's took dog out and whilst on that five, ten minute walk he's thought, do you know what, fuck it. I am gonna Maybe Margot got out after the fact. Maybe he'd finished the walk, put Margot in and then Margot got out again. Yeah.
Phil: He's took dog out and whilst on that five, 10 minute walk he's thought, know what, fuck it. I am gonna. Maybe Margo got out after the fact. Maybe he'd finished the walk, put Margo in and then Margo got out again. Yeah.
Carla: But yeah, it blew my mind when I I can't believe that they're saying the word When when they fetched dog in I was like, you you crawl back. Yeah.
Phil: But yeah, it blew my mind when I... I can't believe that they're saying... When the Fetch Dog in, was like, can't do that.
Carla: And like you said, imagine if he had been successful. If he would have killed himself and then his dad had rang up and said, Excuse me, I think you're holding my son for my murder. But I'm here. See, I also heard two different versions as well when the phone call came. I heard the phone call came to the police station or something like that. And then I heard that Thomas Junior got a phone call
Phil: And like you said, imagine if he had been successful. If he would have killed himself and then his dad had a rang up and said, excuse me, I think you're holding my son for my murder. But I'm here. See, I also had two different versions as well. When the phone call came, I heard the phone call came to the police station or something like that. And then I heard that Thomas Junior got a phone call.
Carla: But either way, it's still fucked up.
Phil: But either way, it's still fucked up. Yeah, I think the podcast that I listened to, said that a nurse said to Thomas Jr. You're not supposed to be able to receive phone calls, but I think you need to take this one. Yeah. And it was that. And at that point, Thomas Jr. had been broke that much. He obviously thought. I've killed my dad and. I.
Carla: Yeah. I think th the podcast that I listened to said that a nurse said to Thomas Jr., you're not supposed to be able to receive phone calls but I think you need to take this one. But yeah. And it was dad. And at that point Thomas Jr. had been broke that much that i he obviously thought I've I've killed my dad and I've I maybe I just don't remember it, maybe I've blacked out.
Phil: Maybe I just don't remember it. Maybe I've blacked out.
Carla: This is the thing though, right? On a whole where people talk about no one would ever confess to a crime that you aren't done. People do make false confessions. I listened to a podcast years ago and that were b solely based on cases with false confessions. Yeah. And those the majority of those false confessions come from the interrogation, from the tactics that police use. And I do think it's mad how they can lie.
Phil: This is the thing though, right? On a whole where people talk about no one would ever confess to a crime that you want done. People do make false confessions. listened to a podcast years ago and that were solely based on cases with false confessions. Yeah. And those, the majority of those false confessions come from the interrogation, from the tactics that police use. And I do think it's mad how they can lie.
Carla: Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed. I think it's they literally told him we've got evidence. Yeah. W told his friend we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. I just can't get over the part of if he if if he'd have been successful in killing himself. That I'd So that's why there were no trigger warning at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, sorry.
Phil: Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed. They literally told him, we've got evidence. Yeah. We told his friend we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. I just can't get over the part of... If he'd have been successful in killing himself. That I didn't... So that's why there were no trigger warning at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, sorry. I just do what...
Carla: I just didn't want I didn't want to get so far in and be like But that's that's why because there's no murder. But I just think it's a bonkers case. Do you know that is the first case read you've done that hasn't involved anything horrific, graphic, just evil.
Phil: I didn't want to get so far in and be like, hey, baby. But that's why, because there's no murder. But I just think it's a bonkers case. Do know that is the first case read you've done that hasn't involved anything horrific, graphic, evil.
Carla: But that is probably one of my favourite case reads you've done. It's it's it's bonkers.
Phil: But that is probably one of my favourite case reads you've done. It's bonkers. Well, I think I'm gonna have some, I'm gonna go have look at this case. Now know why you said I was screaming at it when I listened to it. Honestly, nine pages of writing. babe, nobody can ever say that we do not put the research into our episodes because we do. You just said to me the other night, didn't you? With this, there's no like nitty gritty, there's no body, there's no crime scene and stuff like that.
Carla: Well, I think I'm gonna have some c I'm gonna go have a look at this case. Now I know why you said I was screaming at it when I listened to it. And honestly, na nine pages of writing. babe, nobody can ever say that we do not put the research into our episodes because we do. You said to me the other night, didn't you? I But does with this there's no like nitty gritty, there's no body, there's no crime scene and stuff like that. It's mainly surrounded with the interrogation room. Them taking him out. In the car. Yeah. But then obviously police are thinking, well, there's blood. He's asking us do bodies float. What they've done, right? Is they've turned up to this house. He's obviously been acting a little bit weird. Now, that's fine. People are weird.
Phil: It's mainly surrounded with the interrogation room, them taking him out in the car. Yeah. But then obviously police are thinking, well, there's blood. He's asking us, do bodies float? What they've done, right, is they've turned up to this house. He's obviously been acting a little bit weird. Now, that's fine. People are weird.
Carla: If he is suffering with some mental health or whatever for whatever reason he's on the medication that he was on, that could have played a part in his behaviour. We don't know. But what they've done is they've turned up, they've seen the mattress, they've seen the little bits of blood and they're like, right, we know what's happened here. All we need is All we need is this confession and then job done. And then we can fight body. 'Cause
Phil: If he is suffering with some mental health or whatever for whatever reason he's on the medication that he was on that could have played a part in his behaviour we don't know but what they've done is they've turned up they've seen the mattress they've seen the little bits of blood and they're like right we know what's happened here all we need is confession and then job done and then we can find body because at this point we've still got nobody. Yes, like you said though, people get charged and convicted with no body at all sometimes. So even if...
Carla: At this point we've still got a nobody. Yeah, and s like you said though people get charged and convicted with no body at all sometimes. So even if i even if
Phil: imagine if his dad just didn't ring at that point it had just continued and continued yeah what if his dad on the phone for another week and had he gone in prison and it had been successful in prison i can't believe that they didn't accept any wrongdoing in terms of are you surprised no i'm a fuck no do you know side note so i was scrolling tiktok today and someone that i follow had put this tiktok on basically saying
Carla: Imagine if his dad just didn't ring at that point, it'd have just continued and continued. Yeah. What if his dad hadn't found for another week and it'd have gone in prison and it'd been successful in prison? I can't believe that they didn't accept any wrongdoing in terms of Are you surprised? No, I'm a fuck. No. Do you know Psych know? So I was scrolling TikTok today and someone that I follow had put this TikTok on basically saying, Yeah, I fe I think I've made it. I put my name in Google to see what it said about me. So I thought, I'm gonna do that And do you know what mine says? Carla Watkins brings up my TikTok and it says,
Phil: Yeah, I think I've made it. I put my name in Google to see what it said about me. So I thought, I'm going to do that. And do know what mine says? Carla Watkins brings up my TikTok and it says, discusses her distrust in police enforcement, the law.
Carla: disc it discusses her distrust in police enforcement, the law, and something else to do with the Epstein files. You know. Like right description. Cheers Google.
Phil: and something else to do with the Epstein files. Like write description. Cheers Google. So yeah. can't always, you can't, you can't. I guess you can say with that one, I hope you enjoyed. Yeah, I hope you enjoyed that because there ain't no brutal murder. There ain't no, you know, children being hurt. It was honestly my favorite case read that you've done so far. I only do banners. Don't fucking. But honestly that had me shouting at the radio in the van. Yeah.
Carla: Yeah you can't always you can you can I guess you can say with that one I hope you enjoyed Yeah that I hope you enjoyed that because there ain't no brutal murder, there ain't no, you know, children being hurt. It was honestly, my favourite case read that you've done so far. I only do bangers. Shh don't fucking glow. But honestly that had me shouting at the radio in the van. Yeah. And it was just like a What? What? How have they not done a Netflix documentary on this? Yeah. 'Cause they do it on some fucking to do it on everything else, that would make a banger of a documentary. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah. So I hope you enjoyed episode thirty. I think I'm still sat like mind blown. Well
Phil: and it was just like, what? What? How have they not done a Netflix documentary on this? Yeah. Of course they do it on some fucking, they do it on everything else, that would make a banger of a documentary. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah. So I you enjoyed episode 13. I think I'm still like, blown. Well.
Carla: There's a few cases that I get our eldest daughter to read through just to make sure it made sense and timelines and stuff like that. And she read this one, like there's certain ones I don't want her to read. Yeah. But she read this one and she she would just her mouth would just open and she was like That's not the way I thought it was gonna go. Yeah, and that's why I did it. Well
Phil: These few cases that I get our eldest daughter to read through just to make sure it makes sense and timelines and stuff like that. And she read this one, like there's certain ones I don't want her to read. But she read this one and she was just, her mouth was just open and she was like, that's not the way I thought it was gonna go. Yeah, and that's why I did it. Well.
Carla: Smash it babe. So episode 13, that's a wrap. As usual, please do the whole follow, like, subscribe, comment, share. Please help us. Because it does help us. Every little bit helps. So we will be back for episode 14. See you bye. See ya bye.
Phil: smashed it babe. So episode 13, that's a wrap. As usual, please do the whole follow, like, subscribe, comment, share. Please help us. Because it does help us. Every little bit helps. So we will be back for episode 14. See you bye. See you bye.
Phil: One husband, one wife. Both True Cry fans. A different case every episode. One terrifying story at a time. I'm Carla. And I'm Phil. Welcome to Terrifying and Twisted.
Carla: welcome back to episode thirteen. What did people think of episode twelve? Did you think it was self defence? We had a good chat after that, didn't we? Yeah. About where the line is crossed. Like I said in that episode, it's difficult and it must be difficult for prosecutors and defence lawyers.
Phil: welcome back to episode 13. What did people think of episode 12? Did you think it was self-defense? We had a good chat after that, we? Yeah. About where the line is crossed. Like I said in that episode, it's difficult and it must be difficult for prosecutors and defence lawyers.
Carla: 'Cause you're basically there trying to argue that this person's reality could possibly not be true. Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? So anyway, yeah, it g it sparked a good conversation between me and you. Yeah, it did. we filmed this one straight after Episode twelve. So we haven't really got much to speak about. Yeah, you're gonna say we ain't got out to report. Try not to bang the mic.
Phil: Cause you're basically there trying to argue that this person's reality could possibly not be true. It's hard, isn't it? So anyway, gets back to good conversation between me and you. it did. We filmed this one straight after episode 12. So we haven't really got much to speak about. Yeah, you're going to say we haven't got much to report. Trying not to bang the mic.
Carla: So we can just jump straight into this one. Shot and sweet. Yeah. That alright? Yep. Is that okay? You haven't got much choice. So this is the case read about Thomas Perez Junior.
Phil: So we can just jump straight into this one. Short and sweet. Yeah. Is all right? that okay? You haven't got much choice. So this is the case read about Thomas Perez Jr. August 7th 2018 It's late at night, a quiet neighbourhood in Fontana, California which is 50 miles away from Los Angeles Most people are inside their homes, the streets are quiet a 71 year old man steps outside with the family dog Margo
Carla: August 7, 2018. It's late at night, a quiet neighborhood in Fontana, California, which is fifty miles away from Los Angeles. Most people are inside their homes, the streets are quiet. somewhere in that neighborhood, a 71-year-old man steps outside with the family dog, Margot. And this is between 9 30 and 10 PM at night. It was supposed to be a quick walk, let the dog do her business, and then back home. Only
Phil: and this is between 9.30 and 10pm at night. It was supposed to be a quick walk, let the dog do her business and then back home. Only...
Carla: Only Thomas Perez Sr. doesn't arrive back home. Margot does. He does not. Okay, so the old man doesn't, but the dog does. This is Thomas Perez Sr. Okay. Thomas Perez Jr. shared a house with his elderly father, Thomas Perez Sr. At first Thomas Jr. didn't assume the worst of his dad been missing. Maybe he'd stopped to speak to someone or Margot had got loose.
Phil: Only Thomas Perez Sr doesn't arrive back home. Margot does. He does not. Okay, so the old man doesn't but the dog does. This is Thomas Perez Sr. Okay. Thomas Perez Jr. shared a house with his elderly father, Thomas Perez Sr. At first, Thomas Jr. didn't assume the worst of his dad been missing. Maybe it stopped to speak to someone or Margot got loose. But as hours passed and time went on, Thomas Perez Jr. decided to phone the police and report his father missing. Now this was on August the 8th, nearly 17 hours since he'd last seen his dad. So he waited 17 hours? Thomas Jr. was 53 and recently been through a divorce. So he moved back in with his dad.
Carla: As hours passed and time went on, Thomas Perez Jr. decided to phone the police and report his father missing. Now this was on August the eighth, nearly seventeen hours since he'd last seen his dad. So he waited seventeen hours? Thomas Jr. was fifty-three and recently been through a divorce. So he'd moved back in with his dad. And this med sense will he get back got back on his feet. Yep. When officers arrive at their address, they begin speaking with Thomas Jr. As they are getting information from the Sun, the officers feel as though something's slightly off. He didn't seem too concerned and also kept waffling about other topics, and this includes when he calls to report his father missing.
Phil: and this medsense will he get back got back on his feet? When officers arrive at their address, they begin speaking with Thomas Jr. As they are getting information from the son, the officers feel as though something's slightly off. He didn't seem too concerned and also kept waffling about other topics, and this includes when he calls to report his father missing.
Carla: Officers want to establish what has happened to Thomas Sr. and quickly. When had he left? Where had he gone? Who'd seen him and had something happened? What had Thomas Jr. been doing inside this time? The kind of questions police asked for a missing person investigation. Then the focus started to shift. It wasn't just where is Thomas Sr.
Phil: Officers want to establish what has happened to Thomas Senior and quickly. When had he left? Where had he gone? Who'd seen him and had something happened? What had Thomas Junior been doing inside this time? The kind of questions police ask for a missing person investigation. Then the focus started to shift. It wasn't just where is Thomas Senior.
Carla: It's what has happened to Thomas Sr. Okay. Police begin looking through the house and what they found concerned them. Parts of the house was a mess, specifically his father's bedroom. They noticed some of Thomas Sr.'s belongings weren't where they expected them to be. His phone was inside of the house and so was his wallet. The mattress from his father's bed was missing.
Phil: It's what has happened to Thomas senior. Police begin looking through the house and what they found concerned them. Parts of the house was a mess. Specifically his father's bedroom. They noticed some of Thomas senior's belongings weren't where they expected them to be. His phone was inside of the house and so was his wallet. The mattress from his father's bed was missing. Why do they always do that? A shower curtain was missing. Are you joking there? Some of Thomas Senior's clothes were in a pile, which Thomas Junior explained had taken some of his father's clothes to goodwill. to the walls in his father's bedroom.
Carla: Why do they always do that? A shower curtain was missing. Are you joking there? Some of Thomas Sr.'s clothes were in a pile, which Thomas Jr. explained he'd taken some of his father's clothes to Goodwill. Also, there was some damage to the walls in his father's bedroom. Police were obviously growing more and more suspicious as Tom also had cuts and bruises on his body. Rightly so. Tom said he got these from working on the house. Also discovered in this house were smears and spatters of dried blood. Some of it were at the foot of the stairs.
Phil: police robin's we're going more and more suspicious is tom also had cuts and bruises on his body right now tom said he got these from working on the house also discovered in this house was smears and spas of dried blood some of it were at the fall of the stairs
Carla: Thomas Jr. said that this was down to his father's finger prick diabetes tests and other small accidents around the house.
Phil: Thomas Jr said that this was down to his father's finger prick diabetes tests and other small accidents around the house.
Carla: Thomas Jr. was requested to go to Fontana Police Department to provide a statement. Police then continue searching his house because if this was a murder, where's the body? They had blood, they had suspicious circumstances,
Phil: Thomas Jr. was requested to go to Fontana Police Department to provide a statement. Police then continue searching his house because if this was a murder, where's the body? They had blood, they had suspicious circumstances,
Carla: They have an elderly missing man and they have that man's son sitting in front of them. They believed the answers were gonna be in that interrogation room. They just needed Thomas Jr. to provide those answers. He was in that interrogation room with detectives Robert Miller and Jeremy Hale. Thomas Jr. in this room spoke about possible places his dad could be.
Phil: They have an elderly missing man and they have that man's son sitting in front of them. They believed the answers were going to be in that interrogation room. They just needed Thomas Jr. to provide those answers. He was in that interrogation room with Detectives Robert Miller and Jeremy Hale. Thomas Jr. in this room spoke about possible places his dad could be.
Carla: His father's brother's house or Thomas's sister's house in Oakland. While he was in this room, police were continuing to search his house and speak to people in the neighbourhood. Neighbours report in that they'd seen the migraine quite a few times. Also reported Thomas Jr. reversing his truck up to the garage doors in the early morning hours. That's convenient, isn't it? How many times have we seen that?
Phil: his father's brother's house, or Thomas's sister's house in Oakland. While he was in this room, police were continuing to search his house and speak to people in the neighborhood. Neighbors report in that they had seen them arguing quite a few times. Also reported Thomas Jr. reversing his truck up to the garage doors in the early morning hours. That's convenient, it? How many times have seen that?
Carla: When I read that all I thought of was Chris Watts. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't gonna say his name, I was gonna come up with some other fucking name, but yeah. Because he don't deserve any fucking airtime, but yeah. Whilst carrying on searching this house, police fetched in their trained police canine dog. Which picked up the scent of a recent presence of a human body in the bedroom of Thomas Sr.
Phil: When I read that all I thought of was... Chris Watts? Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to say his name, I was going to come up with some other fucking name, but yeah. Because he doesn't deserve any fucking airtime, but yeah. Whilst carrying on searching this house, police fetched in their trained police canine dog, which picked up the scent of a recent presence of a human body in the bedroom of Thomas Sr.
Carla: Now the tone's changed, 'cause police now have some sort of theory. And believe Thomas Jr. knows more than he's claiming. The questions are now more direct to him. Where's your dad? Have you hurt him? Have you argued? Eventually they stop beating around the bush and tell him they believe he's killed his father, and they want answers.
Phil: Now the tone has changed as police now have some sort of theory and believe Thomas Jr knows more than he's claiming. The questions are now more direct to him. Where's your dad? Have you hurt him? Have you argued? Eventually they stop beating around the bush and tell him they believe he's killed his father and they want answers. So by nearly five o'clock in the morning, he's been sat in this interrogation room for over 17 hours with no lawyer. Then comes a shift change and detectives David Janis and Kyle Guffrey take over interrogations. Did he not request a lawyer?
Carla: So by nearly five o'clock in the morning he's been sat in this interrogation room for over seventeen hours with no lawyer. Then comes a shift change and detectives David Janis and Carl Guffrey take over interrogations. Did he not request a lawyer? Well, most not I don't 'cause th they're not gonna refuse one are they? Thomas Junior
Phil: Well, he must not have done because they're not gonna refuse one, are they? Thomas Jr.
Carla: was on medication for his mental health and he was concerned about taking his meds.
Phil: was on medication for his mental health and he was concerned about taking his meds.
Carla: So the theory came, perhaps the meds had played a part, maybe he had lost control, maybe he had killed his father and not remembered it.
Phil: So the theory came, perhaps the meds had played a part. Maybe he had lost control, maybe he had killed his father and not remembered it.
Carla: The following morning he was taken from the police station into a car. The detectives drove him round Fontana to different locations, places they believe he could have taken his father.
Phil: The morning he was taken from the police station into a car. The detectives drove him round Fontana to different locations, places they believe he could have taken his father.
Carla: At one point they passed a small pond on a golf course and Thomas Jr. asked randomly if bodies float. They keep driving, hoping he's gonna say more and more, and after a while he started to complain about feeling more and more unwell, asking for his meds, asking to go to hospital.
Phil: At one point they passed a small pond on a golf course and Thomas Jr. randomly if bodies float. They keep driving hoping he's going to say more and more and after a while he started to complain about feeling more and more unwell asking for his meds, asking to go to hospital.
Carla: So obviously they think he's just tryna get out of this and going to hospital is a way out of him being questioned by the police. Yeah, because they'd have to stop interrogating him if he gets admitted. They're taking back to the station, back into the interrogation room. Detectives get back to work and now they have something else. They wanted Thomas Jr. to accept the possibility that his father's dead.
Phil: So obviously they think he's just trying to get out of this and going to hospital is a way out of him being questioned by the police. Yeah, because they'd have to stop interrogating him if he gets admitted. They're taking back to the station, back into the interrogation room. Detectives get back to work and now they have something else. They want a Thomas Jr. to accept the possibility that his father's dead.
Carla: They told him they have evidence, they told him they knew what happened, and they told him you killed him. It's not we think you did it, it's we know. They told him that they found his father stabbed to death and that they knew he was responsible. So did they just blatantly lie to him? You killed him, and now he's dead. One of the detectives tell him the meds are probably the reason you don't remember.
Phil: They told him they have evidence, they told him they knew what happened and they told him you killed him. It's not we think you did it, it's we know. They told him that they found his father stabbed to death and that they knew he was responsible. So did they just blatantly lie to him? You killed him and now he's dead. One of the detectives tell him the meds are probably the reason you don't remember.
Carla: By then Thomas Jr. starts becoming emotional and confused, saying, I don't think I did. That's that's not allowed. Then they fetch in his friend Carl to help. He knows him well. I believe he's his business partner. Before he goes to speak to Thomas Jr.
Phil: By then Thomas junior starts becoming emotional and confused saying I don't think I did. That's not allowed. Then they fetch in his friend Carl to help. He knows him well I believe he's his business partner. Before he goes to speak to Thomas junior.
Carla: They tell Carl that we've we've got evidence, we believed he's killed his father and they need help getting a confession.
Phil: They tell Carl that we've got evidence, we believe he's killed his father and they need help getting a confession.
Carla: He was allowed in the room alone with him while police watched on. And Carl tells him they've got you on murder. Carl says that they've got the evidence to charge you. So even though he's confused and exhausted, Thomas Jr. feels like the walls are closing in. The detectives resume their interrogation as his friend.
Phil: He was allowed in the room alone with him while police watched on. And Carl tells him, they've got you on murder. Carl says that they've got the evidence to charge you. So even though he's confused and exhausted, Thomas Jr. feels like the walls are closing in. The detectives resume their interrogation as his friend.
Carla: Come in had failed to get that confession, so they know they need to try something else.
Phil: coming had failed to get that confession so they know they need to try something else.
Carla: This is when it gets even more fucked up. So what they do is they bring Margot, the dog, into the station. The family dog. The dog that went out with his father and came back alone. And when he sees Margot, he breaks down in tears. Margot's family to him, and police note that. They tell him Margot witnessed what he did to his father, and she's probably traumatised. That there was blood on Margot's paws.
Phil: This is when it gets even more fucked up. So what they do is they bring Margo the dog into the station, the family dog. The dog that went out with his father and came back alone. And when he sees Margo, he breaks down in tears. Margo's family to him and police know that. They tell him Margo witnessed what he did to his father and she's probably traumatized. That there was blood on Margo's paws.
Carla: They tell him she will never recover, so they have no choice but to put her down. Fuck off. And take her to a local shelter. They told him he could have a minute with Margot and to say goodbye. Now I think at this point they have some sort of theory to do with scissors and him stabbing his dad to death with scissors. But that is all it is, is a theory.
Phil: They tell him she will never recover so they have no choice but to put her down. Fuck off. And take her to a local shelter. They told him he could have a minute with Margo and say goodbye. Now I think at this point they have some sort of theory to do with scissors and him stabbing his dad to death with scissors. But that is all it is, is a theory.
Carla: Now Thomas Junior is becoming more emotionally distressed, pulling at his hair, crying and screaming. The questions, of course, do not stop. Eventually he expresses guilt, apologizing to his father and sister, and seems to be accepting responsibility for his father's death. And the police believe they've got their breakthrough. This ain't gonna stand up to shit. Then he's left alone.
Phil: Now Thomas Jr is becoming more emotionally distressed, pulling at his hair, crying and screaming. The questions, of course, do not stop. Eventually expresses guilt, apologising to his father and sister, and seems to be accepting responsibility for his father's death. And the police believe they've got their breakthrough. This ain't gonna stand up to shit. Then he's left alone.
Carla: The room's quiet. His father's dead. He's done it. Margot's gonna be put down. Then Thomas Jr. makes a decision. He removes his shoelace and tries to take his own life. They restrain him and place him under arrest. Given the state of him, they hold him under a mental health hold to be detained for 72 hours while he had a psychiatric evaluation.
Phil: The room's quiet. His father's dead. He's done it. Margot's gonna be put down. Then Thomas Jr. makes a decision. He removes his shoelace and tries to take his own life. They restrain him and place him under arrest. Given the state of him, they hold him under a mental health hold to be detained for 72 hours while he had a psychiatric evaluation.
Carla: And then a phone call comes in. And suddenly it all changes. Because Thomas Sr. is well and alive. What? He's not lying somewhere in a shallow grave. He's not been stabbed. And he's definitely not dead. Very much alive. The man that they spent hours telling Thomas he murdered was at Los Angeles Airport.
Phil: And then a phone call comes in. And suddenly it all changes. Because Thomas Sr. is well and alive. What? He's not lying somewhere in a shallow grave. He's not being stabbed. And he's definitely not dead. Very much alive. The man that they spent hours telling Thomas he murdered was at Los Angeles airport.
Carla: He'd gone to visit a friend and then on to visit his daughter, suggested by Thomas Jr. Completely unaware of what was happening back at home, unaware that his son had been sat in an interrogation room for over 17 hours, unaware that his son was accused of his murder,
Phil: He'd gone to visit a friend and then on to visit his daughter, suggested by Thomas Jr. Completely unaware of what was happening back at home. Unaware that his son had been sat in an interrogation room for over 17 hours. Unaware that his son was accused of his murder.
Carla: and completely unaware that his son had been pushed into confessing to his.
Phil: and completely unaware that his son had been pushed into confessing to his death. I'm so confused. This had me shouting at the radio when I listened to this. And it said that this phone call came before they sent Thomas Jr. to the side ward.
Carla: Deaf. I'm so confused. This had me shouting at the radio when I listened to this. And it said that this phone call came before the sent Thomas Jr. to the side quad. D I've got I've got so many fucking questions. Ask So Right, number one.
Phil: I've got I've got so many fucking questions. Ask them. right number one
Carla: Wouldn't the first place to check for a missing person? Would they have not have did you ring the daughter to see if you were due there? Did you ring the daughter to see if you were there? Did you l it's not hard to check if somebody's bought a ticket and boarded a plane with a passport? Did they not check none of this? Evidently not. Imagine if he'd have been successful in killing himself.
Phil: Wouldn't the first place to check for a missing person, would they have not? Did you ring the door to see if you were due there? Did you ring the door to see if you were there? Did you? It's not hard to check if somebody's bought a ticket and boarded a plane with a passport. Did they not check none of this? Evidently not. Imagine if he'd have been successful in killing himself.
Carla: Imagine.
Phil: imagine. and he then rang before the adim admitted under the mental elf hold surely that phone call should have stopped everything nope
Carla: And he then rang before they had him admitted under the mental health hold. Surely that phone call should have stopped everything. No. And not forgetting this were over the space of like seventeen hours it it wasn't days and days and days. That doesn't make it fucking okay. No, it certainly don't make it okay. But they've from what I heard and what I read, it were a case of there's that there, there's that there, there's that there, you've done it. I'll be honest, as soon as you mentioned no mattress and a fucking shower curtain missing, my head straight went to the usual. Well you've killed him on his bed and That's why this is
Phil: And not forgetting this were over the space of like 17 hours. It wasn't days and days and days. That doesn't make it fucking okay. No, it certainly don't make it okay. But from what I heard and what I read, it were a case of, there's that there, there's that there, there's that there. You've done it. I'll be honest. As soon as you mentioned no mattress and a fucking shower curtain missing, my head straight went to the usual. Well, you've killed him on his bed. That's why this is
Carla: Such a good case, Reed. You've killed him on the bed and used a shower curtain to wrap his body up. So you've been interrogated for hours, you've been told your father's dead, told that you've killed him, told that your dog witnessed it and had to be put down. You've been med to believe your life is over and you've rich reached such a desperate mental state, you've tried to take your own life. But if Thomas Jr. hadn't killed his father
Phil: such a good case read. You've killed him on the bed and used a shower curtain to wrap his body up. So you've been interrogated for hours, you've been told your father's dead, told that you've killed him, told that your dog witnessed it and had to be put down, you've been made to believe your life is over and you've reached such a desperate mental state, you've tried to take your own life. But if Thomas Jr hadn't killed his father...
Carla: Why would he confess? We know why. Because he was broke down. But if to there was video and audio of hours of interrogation, and Thomas had said things that sounded like admissions of guilt. He had apologised and tried to reconstruct what might have happened. He had accepted possibilities detectives put towards him.
Phil: Why would he confess? We know why. Because he was broke down. There was video and audio of hours of interrogation and Thomas had said things that sounded like admissions of guilt. He had apologised and tried to reconstruct what might have happened. He had accepted possibilities detectives put towards him.
Carla: To someone watching a few minutes of this, it could look like a confession. But the circumstances were different. He had been questioned for over seventeen hours, repeatedly told his father's dead, they had evidence against him, told his medication might have caused him to hurt his dad and not remember.
Phil: To someone watching a few minutes of this, it could look like a confession, but the circumstances were different. He had been questioned for over 17 hours, repeatedly told his father's dead, they had evidence against him, told his medication might have caused him to hurt his dad and not remember.
Carla: But when we talk about false confessions, it usually partners up with psychological pressure. 100%. And if you're repeatedly, for seventeen hours, being told you did it, you did it, we've got evidence, we know you've done it, you're gonna start questioning your own brain. And isn't there s isn't there something in America where the police can sorta twist it? Yeah.
Phil: But when we talk about false confessions, it usually partners up with psychological pressure. 100%. And if you're repeatedly for 17 hours being told, you did it, you did it, we've got evidence, we know you've done it, you're gonna start questioning your own brain. And isn't there something in America where the police can sort of twist it? Yeah.
Carla: I don't know exactly how far I d I I I don't think to that extent. I think that's way beyond like what I thought was gonna come from this is that dad was gonna be murdered, but there's no way that any of this would have stood up in court at all because of
Phil: I don't know exactly how far, I don't think to that extent. I think that's way beyond, like what I thought was gonna come from this is that dad was gonna be murdered, but there's no way that any of this would have stood up in court at all because of.
Carla: the unethics behind the interrogation and the emotional manipulation. But people have been charged for murders without a body before. I don't mean without the body. I just mean the way in which, like, you've got his best friend. You've lied to his best friend and said that we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. He's exhausted. He's exhausted. He's got no lawyer. He's got no lawyer. He also requir he obviously relies on
Phil: the unethics behind the interrogation and the emotional manipulation. But people have been charged for murders without a body before. I don't mean without the body. I just mean the way in which like you've got his best friend, you've lied to his best friend and said that we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. He's exhausted. He's got no lawyer. He's got no lawyer. also requires, he obviously relies on
Carla: Medication, ment did it say what is what mental health medication? Like is it psych psychotic medication? Is it the thing with his dog? The d so many unethical things. Tell him that they're gonna put down his dog. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, continue. Thomas Junior wasn't prepared to walk away after what happened. So in two thousand nineteen he filed a federal lawsuit against the city of Fontana and officers.
Phil: medication meant did it say what is what mental health medication like is it psych psychotic medication is it the thing with his dog there are so many unethical things tell him that they're to put down his dog yeah anyway sorry continue thomas jr wasn't prepared to walk away after what happened so in 2019 he filed a federal lawsuit against the city of fontana and offices
Carla: His lawsuit alleged that detectives had used coercive tactics to obtain his confession. The interrogation had caused him severe emotion and psychological distress. The city disagreed. Cause they did. Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him. Side note, I read somewhere that this
Phil: His lawsuit alleged that detectives had used coercive tactics to obtain his confession. The interrogation had caused him severe emotion and psychological distress. The city disagreed. Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him. Side note, I read somewhere that this...
Carla: trained canine dog wasn't actually part of the police. I think I read something Did they just bring somebody else somebody's pet dog in? Yeah, some fork off. I'm sure I read something like that.
Phil: trained canine dog wasn't actually part of the police. think I read some of it. Did it just bring somebody else? Somebody's pet dog in? Yeah. I'm sure I read something like that.
Carla: Where where were we up to? Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they had legit reasons to suspect him, pointing towards the evidence they had found during the investigation. The holes in the wall in his bedroom and the bedroom were were a mess. Mattress had gone, shower curtain had gone, blood at feet upstairs, car reversing up at late at night.
Phil: Where are up to Fontana defended the conduct of its officers and argued that they are legit reasons to suspect him pointing towards the evidence They had found during the investigation The holes in the wall in his bedroom the bedroom were a mess mattress had gone shower curtain had gone blood at feet at stairs Car reversing up at late at night
Carla: The case eventually got to federal courts. Some of Thomas's claims were dismissed and other claims were not. The city continued to deny wrongdoing and eventually the settlement was reached. In 2024, the city of Fontana agreed to pay close to $900,000. But one thing was clear.
Phil: The case eventually got to federal courts. Some of Thomas's claims were dismissed and other claims were not. The city continued to deny wrongdoing and eventually the settlement was reached. In 2024, the city of Fontana agreed to pay close to $900,000. But one thing was clear.
Carla: The settlement wasn't an admission of wrongdoing. The city did not admit their officers had violated the law and continued to dispute Thomas Jr.'s allegations. It was just the end of a civil legal battle. Sir Thomas Perez Jr. walked into a police station because he wanted help finding his father. He left that interrogation.
Phil: The settlement wasn't an admission of wrongdoing. The city did not admit their officers had violated the law and continued to dispute Thomas Jr.'s allegations. It was just the end of a civil legal battle. Sir Thomas Perez Jr. walked into a police station because he wanted help finding his father. He left that interrogation. believing it killed him. It had been questioned for over 17 hours. It had been pushed to the point of psychological collapse. It attempted suicide and then the truth arrived. His father was alive. The confession was meaningless and the murder never happened.
Carla: Believing it killed him. It'd been questioned for over seventeen hours. It'd be pushed to the point of psychological collapse. He'd attempted suicide, and then the truth arrived. His father was alive. The confession was meaningless, and the murder never happened. That has blown Six, seven, eight, nine. That's ten pages. That has blown And that's gone so quick. That has blown my mind because I did not see that coming. Yeah. I genuinely when you spoke about I know I've said it, but the mattress, the blood And that's exactly how I heard it when I heard it for the first time. Like you would genu you would just expect this to be going down a road of murder, wouldn't ya? Yeah.
Phil: Six, seven, eight, nine, that's 10 pages. And that's gone so quick. That has blown my mind because I did not see that coming. I genuinely, when you spoke about, I know I've said it, but the mattress, the blood. And that's exactly how I heard it when I heard it for the first time. Like you would just expect this to be going down a road of murder, wouldn't you? Yeah. I've got so many unanswered questions though, so.
Carla: I've got so many unanswered questions though. So Wha why would his d why would his dad not just tell him that he would go in to see his sister? Why from what I read, I don't I think 'cause they live together, they want exactly the best of friends, they might have clashed a little bit. Right. Bearing in mind his dad was seventy one years old, so he might not have been as switched on as a fifty year old, maybe. Because my first thing well
Phil: Why would his dad not just tell him that he would go in to see his sister? From what I read, don't... I think because they live together, they're one of exactly the best of friends. They might have clashed a little bit. Right. Bearing in mind, his dad was 71 years old, so he might not have been as switched on as a 50-year-old, maybe. Yeah. Because my first thing, well, we'll...
Carla: His phone. He didn't take his phone. Did he take his phone, didn't take his wallet? No. And it just it just left his dog. So
Phil: His phone. He didn't take his phone. Did he take his phone or his wallet? No. And he just left his dog. So...
Carla: So he had just took the dog out for a walk at like half past nine at night. And then just And then just disappeared. Yeah. And then just decided to go to Maybe it was just a spur at moment thing where he just thought, if they had been arguing, like somebody said they'd been arguing, if they had been arguing and he'd suggested, why don't you go see your daughter, my sister?
Phil: So we had just took the dog out for a walk at like half past nine at night. And then just disappeared. Yeah, and then just decided to go to... Maybe it was just a spirit moment thing where he just thought if they had been arguing, like somebody said they'd been arguing, if they had been arguing and he'd suggested, why don't you go see your daughter, my sister?
Carla: He's took dog out and whilst on that five, ten minute walk he's thought, do you know what, fuck it. I am gonna Maybe Margot got out after the fact. Maybe he'd finished the walk, put Margot in and then Margot got out again. Yeah.
Phil: He's took dog out and whilst on that five, 10 minute walk he's thought, know what, fuck it. I am gonna. Maybe Margo got out after the fact. Maybe he'd finished the walk, put Margo in and then Margo got out again. Yeah.
Carla: But yeah, it blew my mind when I I can't believe that they're saying the word When when they fetched dog in I was like, you you crawl back. Yeah.
Phil: But yeah, it blew my mind when I... I can't believe that they're saying... When the Fetch Dog in, was like, can't do that.
Carla: And like you said, imagine if he had been successful. If he would have killed himself and then his dad had rang up and said, Excuse me, I think you're holding my son for my murder. But I'm here. See, I also heard two different versions as well when the phone call came. I heard the phone call came to the police station or something like that. And then I heard that Thomas Junior got a phone call
Phil: And like you said, imagine if he had been successful. If he would have killed himself and then his dad had a rang up and said, excuse me, I think you're holding my son for my murder. But I'm here. See, I also had two different versions as well. When the phone call came, I heard the phone call came to the police station or something like that. And then I heard that Thomas Junior got a phone call.
Carla: But either way, it's still fucked up.
Phil: But either way, it's still fucked up. Yeah, I think the podcast that I listened to, said that a nurse said to Thomas Jr. You're not supposed to be able to receive phone calls, but I think you need to take this one. Yeah. And it was that. And at that point, Thomas Jr. had been broke that much. He obviously thought. I've killed my dad and. I.
Carla: Yeah. I think th the podcast that I listened to said that a nurse said to Thomas Jr., you're not supposed to be able to receive phone calls but I think you need to take this one. But yeah. And it was dad. And at that point Thomas Jr. had been broke that much that i he obviously thought I've I've killed my dad and I've I maybe I just don't remember it, maybe I've blacked out.
Phil: Maybe I just don't remember it. Maybe I've blacked out.
Carla: This is the thing though, right? On a whole where people talk about no one would ever confess to a crime that you aren't done. People do make false confessions. I listened to a podcast years ago and that were b solely based on cases with false confessions. Yeah. And those the majority of those false confessions come from the interrogation, from the tactics that police use. And I do think it's mad how they can lie.
Phil: This is the thing though, right? On a whole where people talk about no one would ever confess to a crime that you want done. People do make false confessions. listened to a podcast years ago and that were solely based on cases with false confessions. Yeah. And those, the majority of those false confessions come from the interrogation, from the tactics that police use. And I do think it's mad how they can lie.
Carla: Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed. I think it's they literally told him we've got evidence. Yeah. W told his friend we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. I just can't get over the part of if he if if he'd have been successful in killing himself. That I'd So that's why there were no trigger warning at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, sorry.
Phil: Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed. They literally told him, we've got evidence. Yeah. We told his friend we've got evidence to have him on first degree murder. I just can't get over the part of... If he'd have been successful in killing himself. That I didn't... So that's why there were no trigger warning at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, sorry. I just do what...
Carla: I just didn't want I didn't want to get so far in and be like But that's that's why because there's no murder. But I just think it's a bonkers case. Do you know that is the first case read you've done that hasn't involved anything horrific, graphic, just evil.
Phil: I didn't want to get so far in and be like, hey, baby. But that's why, because there's no murder. But I just think it's a bonkers case. Do know that is the first case read you've done that hasn't involved anything horrific, graphic, evil.
Carla: But that is probably one of my favourite case reads you've done. It's it's it's bonkers.
Phil: But that is probably one of my favourite case reads you've done. It's bonkers. Well, I think I'm gonna have some, I'm gonna go have look at this case. Now know why you said I was screaming at it when I listened to it. Honestly, nine pages of writing. babe, nobody can ever say that we do not put the research into our episodes because we do. You just said to me the other night, didn't you? With this, there's no like nitty gritty, there's no body, there's no crime scene and stuff like that.
Carla: Well, I think I'm gonna have some c I'm gonna go have a look at this case. Now I know why you said I was screaming at it when I listened to it. And honestly, na nine pages of writing. babe, nobody can ever say that we do not put the research into our episodes because we do. You said to me the other night, didn't you? I But does with this there's no like nitty gritty, there's no body, there's no crime scene and stuff like that. It's mainly surrounded with the interrogation room. Them taking him out. In the car. Yeah. But then obviously police are thinking, well, there's blood. He's asking us do bodies float. What they've done, right? Is they've turned up to this house. He's obviously been acting a little bit weird. Now, that's fine. People are weird.
Phil: It's mainly surrounded with the interrogation room, them taking him out in the car. Yeah. But then obviously police are thinking, well, there's blood. He's asking us, do bodies float? What they've done, right, is they've turned up to this house. He's obviously been acting a little bit weird. Now, that's fine. People are weird.
Carla: If he is suffering with some mental health or whatever for whatever reason he's on the medication that he was on, that could have played a part in his behaviour. We don't know. But what they've done is they've turned up, they've seen the mattress, they've seen the little bits of blood and they're like, right, we know what's happened here. All we need is All we need is this confession and then job done. And then we can fight body. 'Cause
Phil: If he is suffering with some mental health or whatever for whatever reason he's on the medication that he was on that could have played a part in his behaviour we don't know but what they've done is they've turned up they've seen the mattress they've seen the little bits of blood and they're like right we know what's happened here all we need is confession and then job done and then we can find body because at this point we've still got nobody. Yes, like you said though, people get charged and convicted with no body at all sometimes. So even if...
Carla: At this point we've still got a nobody. Yeah, and s like you said though people get charged and convicted with no body at all sometimes. So even if i even if
Phil: imagine if his dad just didn't ring at that point it had just continued and continued yeah what if his dad on the phone for another week and had he gone in prison and it had been successful in prison i can't believe that they didn't accept any wrongdoing in terms of are you surprised no i'm a fuck no do you know side note so i was scrolling tiktok today and someone that i follow had put this tiktok on basically saying
Carla: Imagine if his dad just didn't ring at that point, it'd have just continued and continued. Yeah. What if his dad hadn't found for another week and it'd have gone in prison and it'd been successful in prison? I can't believe that they didn't accept any wrongdoing in terms of Are you surprised? No, I'm a fuck. No. Do you know Psych know? So I was scrolling TikTok today and someone that I follow had put this TikTok on basically saying, Yeah, I fe I think I've made it. I put my name in Google to see what it said about me. So I thought, I'm gonna do that And do you know what mine says? Carla Watkins brings up my TikTok and it says,
Phil: Yeah, I think I've made it. I put my name in Google to see what it said about me. So I thought, I'm going to do that. And do know what mine says? Carla Watkins brings up my TikTok and it says, discusses her distrust in police enforcement, the law.
Carla: disc it discusses her distrust in police enforcement, the law, and something else to do with the Epstein files. You know. Like right description. Cheers Google.
Phil: and something else to do with the Epstein files. Like write description. Cheers Google. So yeah. can't always, you can't, you can't. I guess you can say with that one, I hope you enjoyed. Yeah, I hope you enjoyed that because there ain't no brutal murder. There ain't no, you know, children being hurt. It was honestly my favorite case read that you've done so far. I only do banners. Don't fucking. But honestly that had me shouting at the radio in the van. Yeah.
Carla: Yeah you can't always you can you can I guess you can say with that one I hope you enjoyed Yeah that I hope you enjoyed that because there ain't no brutal murder, there ain't no, you know, children being hurt. It was honestly, my favourite case read that you've done so far. I only do bangers. Shh don't fucking glow. But honestly that had me shouting at the radio in the van. Yeah. And it was just like a What? What? How have they not done a Netflix documentary on this? Yeah. 'Cause they do it on some fucking to do it on everything else, that would make a banger of a documentary. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah. So I hope you enjoyed episode thirty. I think I'm still sat like mind blown. Well
Phil: and it was just like, what? What? How have they not done a Netflix documentary on this? Yeah. Of course they do it on some fucking, they do it on everything else, that would make a banger of a documentary. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah. So I you enjoyed episode 13. I think I'm still like, blown. Well.
Carla: There's a few cases that I get our eldest daughter to read through just to make sure it made sense and timelines and stuff like that. And she read this one, like there's certain ones I don't want her to read. Yeah. But she read this one and she she would just her mouth would just open and she was like That's not the way I thought it was gonna go. Yeah, and that's why I did it. Well
Phil: These few cases that I get our eldest daughter to read through just to make sure it makes sense and timelines and stuff like that. And she read this one, like there's certain ones I don't want her to read. But she read this one and she was just, her mouth was just open and she was like, that's not the way I thought it was gonna go. Yeah, and that's why I did it. Well.
Carla: Smash it babe. So episode 13, that's a wrap. As usual, please do the whole follow, like, subscribe, comment, share. Please help us. Because it does help us. Every little bit helps. So we will be back for episode 14. See you bye. See ya bye.
Phil: smashed it babe. So episode 13, that's a wrap. As usual, please do the whole follow, like, subscribe, comment, share. Please help us. Because it does help us. Every little bit helps. So we will be back for episode 14. See you bye. See you bye.
