Stop Asking to Be Helped. Start Asking to Be Healed.

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A teenager with an unfiltered phone has more access to explicit content in five minutes than every powerful person throughout history had combined.
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September is Recovery Awareness Month, and here on Temple Bound, we're giving it three full episodes from three completely different angles.
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First, a married couple tells their own story firsthand.
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A marriage that nearly ended over this exact addiction and the years-long road that turned it into something neither of them would trade.
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Then we're gonna hear a bishop who's heard more confessions than he can count, who's gonna transform the way that you hear one word forever pride.
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And then lastly, a therapist who's watched pornography addiction destroy men for years, and who will tell you it was never about the pornography.
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It was about the pain nobody ever taught them to name.
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So whatever you or someone you love is walking through right now, there's a way back, and it runs straight into the arms of the Savior.
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Stick with us this month.
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It's some of the most honest work we've put on this show.
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Shaden Burtonoli didn't set out to become one of the leading voices of men in pornography recovery.
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He got there because he kept showing up to too many funerals.
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LDS men gone to suicide long before any of them had ever set across from him.
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So that's what shaped how he sees every man now who does show up to his office.
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And his conclusion is that pornography was never the real problem.
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Pain is.
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Pornography was just where that pain went to hide.
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This month on Temple Bound, we're focusing on addiction recovery, and we are hyper focusing on pornography addiction.
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And Shaden is opening up with an idea that I haven't stopped thinking about what the Temple Initiatory Ordinance actually is.
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It's not just a tradition, it's a wound being washed, anointed, and covered.
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So if you've ever felt stuck or love someone who is, listen to this one till the end.
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Shaden, welcome to Temple Bound.
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This episode is one that I have been so excited about.
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Would you mind introducing yourself and setting the table for our discussion about who you are, what you do, and why you're so passionate about it?
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Okay.
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So uh, well, first off, thanks for having me.
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Um my name is Shaden.
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My last name is Italian, it's Bert Noli.
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I don't expect anybody to really learn it, but uh Shaden Bert Noli uh grew up in Utah, and uh I'm a father of four, have a beautiful wife named Shelly, and uh I do therapy for a living at this point and love helping men.
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So I specialize, I tell people I love men, and they always get a good laugh out of it.
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You know, but I I specialize in in men's mental health.
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I love helping men liberate themselves.
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I I'm a pat I have a strong passion for anyone who is stuck.
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And if they're stuck, I mean, no matter what situation I'm in in life, if driving wherever it could be, if someone's stuck, my my compassion turns on pretty quickly to want to try to get them out of it.
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So obviously, for a lot of men, especially within our awesome religion, they uh they often struggle with pornography.
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And so I have I have some specialties in that for sure, in helping men liberate themselves there.
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But uh, but yeah, overall, love helping men.
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And uh I would say to answer like why I'm passionate though, is I I I've just lost.
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Honestly, I've lost too many men.
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I know it sounds it's kind of a deep, let's get deep real quick, but yeah, please.
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Um I when I when I became a therapist, I never thought that my buddy who is a pediatric doctor would have like less deaths than me when it when it came to my career.
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Right?
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Like I asked him the other day, I'm like, dude, how many how many people have you actually lost, you know, like on the table or whatever?
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And he's like, one, but it really wasn't even mine.
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I'm like, you haven't lost anybody?
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And like he said, no.
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And I he's an ER pediatric doctor, and I'm like, I can't believe that.
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And I said, I there's I've lost like more than five men who to suicide, and and and it that was years ago that those numbers kept coming up, and I'm like, man, like this these men just need help.
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They need help.
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And and my I have an amazing hero of a father who left a legacy for me, and I I come across pretty masculine in my stature, but yet I definitely have a deep sense of of empathy and compassion for people.
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And it just lends well.
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I've just found that it's it's somewhat of a gift for me to be able to help men and connect with them pretty quickly and to not be what I think a lot of men would see as a typical type of therapist, if you will.
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So yeah, there's there's many reasons my passions run deep, but that's just one of the one of the few, so, or one of the many.
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Yeah, that was a great opening um you know introduction.
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I feel you know compelled to just highlight to the audience that you are often seen as one of the top experts in helping men overcome pornography addiction, but I love the way you framed it because it's not pornography becomes this like focal point.
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Yeah, and and you understand that it's about liberating men and helping men become who they were divinely created to become.
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And the adversary is working very aggressively to attack what it is to be a man.
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And so there's different tools that he has, and one of his most effective tools is pornography.
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And so when you talk about losing those those men in your life, it sounds like you know, you're really talking, like you said, about liberating them, helping them become free because they're they're not just shackled, but they're suffering.
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And there's this one barrier called pornography and and all of that.
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So, how do you how do you help people today?
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Like, what do you do now that helps helps liberate men?
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I'll give one word and it is pain.
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It's pain.
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The the thing excuse me, the thing that keeps men most stuck is pain.
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Uh, if I had to say that, you know, think about most men, they they grow up when they when they feel pain, what are they taught to do?
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Right?
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It's it sounds so cliche, and I hate to come across that way, but it's just the facts.
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Like most men, when they feel pain, they suppress it, they keep it down.
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Um and and over time you get really good at just ignoring it.
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You you get really good at actually knowing just putting it away, but yet it's still there.
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And one of the deepest pains that most men deal with, that they I would I call it the invisible pain, that they rarely have words for in my office, is in is loneliness.
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And it's ironic, the older someone is, the harder it is for them to say, I just feel so lonely.
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It's me who often says, like, I we talk and then we finally get into it, and I'll be like, dude, no, I I just think you you you just appear so lonely to me.
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Like who who really knows you?
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Like on a scale of one to ten, who like who knows you at like a five or a six?
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And it's just so common, right?
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Where they're like, I don't know.
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What drives that?
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What drives men feeling lonely?
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Because I mean, I'm guessing a lot of these guys that that you see as lonely have families, have children.
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Yeah, they're around people.
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They're members of the church, they're in the congregation smiling every Sunday like nothing's wrong.
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Yeah.
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So how most of them are trying, most of them have been fighting so long in their life to earn love.
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And that's a topic we could go on for hours and hours, but so many of them sadly have internalized false doctrine that love is earned.
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And so, in this attempt to earn love over a lifetime, they they figure out how.
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The problem is it wasn't really love they were earning, they were earning approval.
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And they did that through achievement.
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So most men are seeking approval all the time from those around them, from everyone, and they do it through the lens of achievement.
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And so they're achieving and achieving and achieving, and that's this treadmill they never get to get off, because somewhere in their early childhood, early life, somehow the the the brain internalized the doctrine of love falsely, that that that it's earnable, that you get it.
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Like you have to get it.
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Therefore, when you make mistakes, when you you then lose it.
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And so you're constantly in your bank account trying to figure out where how acceptable am I, how lovable am I actually?
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And this is all subconscious, this is going on deeply, and where it actually comes from most of the time is a is is a lack of attunement.
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So I use that word a lot.
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There's a lot of A's I use, but when men lack attunement, which means if you if you hear the word, it sounds very similar to atonement.
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Atonement is is when Christ saw into us deeply.
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I think you've heard that play on words with intimacy, right?
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Into me see.
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Like intimacy is this into me seeing.
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And a lot of boys actually stop receiving attunement or being seen into.
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Six, seven years old, uh, you know, eight years old, teenage years often get even more rough.
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Where for whatever reason it is, it's very parents or others around them have really struggled to take the time to really ask the harder questions and the deeper questions to get into this child.
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Oftentimes, it's been so long since they've done that, or so the intensity of how much they've asked about that child hasn't been enough over time that when it now comes time to ask an intense question about what's going on inside of my kid, the kid doesn't know, he's terrified to answer too, because we don't do this.
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Like we don't talk like this.
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No.
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And so now he gives these brushed answers and just really quick answers that that keep him somewhat more hidden.
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And meanwhile, he's monoimano with Satan inside because he's not nobody, he's not really being known on the outside, and it's a losing game.
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Not to mention, if love is earned and the kid doesn't even know it, I didn't know it.
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I didn't know that I had internalized that.
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Then if you relapse, if you're into if you struggle with pornography, which we'll get into in a minute, then what is that in your in your in your loss, your wins and losses?
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Like, well, I just lost again, therefore my lovability just went down again.
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And now this energy's gotta come into me that I've gotta I've gotta man up and I've gotta toughen up to actually achieve more to compensate for what I just lost.
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Wow.
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Meanwhile, that blessed awesome kid doesn't realize that pornography was never the problem to begin with, his pain was.
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And pornography was the solution to his pain that became a problem.
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But it's not the problem.
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It became a problem, but it originated as a solution to inner pain that he didn't know about yet.
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And that's the work.
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When a man heals his pain, he heals his desire, his appetite for for other things that would soothe it.
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And go figure, Jesus is up there saying, When can I be it?
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When when will can I be that that person who soothes your pain?
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I want to.
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I I say this all the time.
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Sorry, I know I'm going, but I say this all the time, right?
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This is perfect.
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Okay.
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Because Jesus, I say this a lot, where I I I stood in I stood in church the other day and spoke, and I said, I want everybody to think about and like kind of weigh on the scales, the amount of time you've spent in your lifetime in sin versus the amount of time in your lifetime you've spent in pain.
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And I said, I I don't care how sinful of a person you are, there is no way you've spent more time in sin than you have in pain.
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That goes physical pain, relationship pain, emotional pain, physical sickness type pain.
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Like I mean, pain is just the universal experience of human beings, and what we choose to do to soothe it means is all the difference in the world.
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And as the the word savior has a lot to do with pain.
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Like a savior saves you in pain.
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So then I'll ask, so how many of you when you think of the atonement of Jesus Christ, truly believe or think about that he suffered for not only your sin, but your pain?
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And he says it all the time, but I don't think we often really utilize him for our in our pain as often as we do in our sin.
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I think we're very uh we're often more a lot more quick, if you will, or or or yeah, quick to jump to him when we sin, and yet, but when we're in pain, we find other sources such as our cell phone right now.
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Our cell phone is, man, that thing can soothe so much pain.
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The problem is it doesn't, as soon as you put that thing down, it's instantaneous return of pain.
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Like that's what people are not realizing.
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So it doesn't matter if it's pornography on the phone, whatever that thing is, it's soothing your pain becomes your savior.
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If it does, that's just how it works.
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And how it works.
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And a false savior is always going to leave things lacking, if not perpetuate the problem, it sounds.
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And it feels like it feels like um them even knowing they're in pain is probably part of the journey.
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I I mean they know they're in pain, but like you said, a lot of this is subconscious.
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They're driven.
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Listen, I I relate a lot to what you're saying here.
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I can't remember when it was for me when I realized that part of my drive for success was trying to earn love and be seen as someone who could do great things so that they would love me.
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And I think that's a common male like experience.
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So when how do you help people like discover that they do you have is that a big part of it for you that you're helping men find that they are in pain?
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Because I'm guessing once they know that they're in pain, they can really see that as the problem, not a problem like pornography.
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Yeah, it's easier for them to see that connection to the savior and understand that he's there that not just for sin, but for pain.
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And I would say, lastly, a thought that I had when you were talking about you know pornography being a problem and not the problem, is this idea that when we go to the savior after you know falling in sin, whether it's pornography or something else that's trying to soothe the pain, or just going to him, it feels like almost like in vain.
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Like, can you help me overcome this problem?
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I'm such a bad person, I feel horrible.
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It's almost like if we're not careful when we go to the savior, we could actually do it from an unhealthy place of shame.
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Yeah.
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Versus like understanding that, like, yeah, he'll help you with that.
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And let's get to the core issue is that pain.
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So going back to my question, is it hard for you to help them see that they're in pain, or is that something that that is pretty aware and then that's how you draw them to the savior?
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Tell me a little bit about what that process looks like.
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Usually it's not hard to see to help them see that they have pain.
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Usually, usually just discussing it is is very sensible and logical.
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It doesn't, it doesn't honestly even take a therapist to be able to break it down enough to say, who did you turn to when you were little?
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And when they say nobody, okay.
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What if that was your own son, do you think your son would be in pain?
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Would that be painful?
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And it's like so simple that way.
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Um and and there's many other different types of pain.
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What is more difficult though, is for a for them to allow themselves to be hugged in it.
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And I mean literally hug sometimes in my office.
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That's why I love working with men too.
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I can give them a hug when it's a when it's appropriate, when it's when it's timing.
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But they to be held and hugged, if you will, in the presence of someone who wants to give them space to actually feel the pain.
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Because thinking of the pain is one thing, but to actually let yourself act to experience some of it again, to go to those hard places, that's where most men have trained themselves, like, I don't do that, man.
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I don't want to do that.
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That's not what I do.
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And ironically, I use the word hug very intentionally because it really summarizes a lot of what I've experienced with my men.
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Like if I wrote a book about it, I could almost call it hug on the front, like because that's what they always they needed.
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I can say, like, how did you just how many uh how many times in your life do did you just need did you just need a hug?
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And not a lecture, and not advice, and not counsel.
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Like you just needed to be held, and it it brings tears to many men's eyes because they feel it.
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And now they're now they're forty, now they're twenty-five, you know, whatever, and they they just long to be able to be so vulnerable to say what their pain is, even if it includes pornography, and just be held in it.
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So to get where I want to say to you too, is they then come to the savior, like you said, not so much in vain, but with that fix it mentality and achievement mentality of what do I have to do?
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Oh, I see.
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And and the j and the savior that I know is like, hey, hey Will, hold on.
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Hold on, Will, hold up, be quiet, Will.
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Hold on.
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Like Can I just give you a hug?
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You're suffering.
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I'm so sorry for how lonely you've been.
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Can I please hold you?
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Right?
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And that man that man is more willing to say, I want to change.
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I want to I want to give my life for that experience of being held by him.
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And that's where most men are their the the the the idea to do that, to let go, to be held by him, is so difficult because it often hasn't happened in the mortal, in the mortal sphere.
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And so to allow themselves to try to experience that in an immortal sphere, so to speak, is very very difficult.
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But it is the way, and that's why I love the temple.
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In the temple, there are ways that that can happen in beautiful ways, and you don't have to be a perfect man to attend the temple to experience that.
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And I just want to say too, any woman who is listening to this, I'm sorry, and we're not trying to neglect you.
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This has everything to do with your experience too.
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It's just that I definitely focus a lot more on in the men's experience here.
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Well, I think there's a pain too.
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Yes, there's it definitely I love that you say that.
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I think the reason we're especially for this month, we're talking about pornography, and I think I think there's probably nothing more that would soothe and heal the the woman in the marriage than having the man heal.
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.079
Like heal people, heal people, hurt people, hurt people.
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:48.720
And um to your point, I think there's there's something really powerful about this idea of of understanding how men operate, because even you know, the woman has has sons, you know, the women have husbands, they have fathers.
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.599
This this is a huge, this is for all of us.
00:18:51.680 --> 00:19:00.240
It's it's a it's a way for all of us, like a rising tide, to understand how we can uh uh overcome these these challenges by coming to the savior.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:06.160
And even overcoming the wrong word, um, but just coming to the savior in a way that from a place of knowing.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.319
My my question to you, and this is a little bit selfish, but I have four boys.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:18.640
So when you talk about that pain being something that gets embedded when they're young, what can we as parents do for our sons, our grandsons?
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:27.359
What can we do to help them as best we can not develop the pain of that gets developed early in loneliness or achievement?
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.079
Yeah, witness, witness the pain.
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:37.839
You know, we have all these covenants, these beautiful covenants we make in the temple, and they each they have names, you know, the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of chastity.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:43.039
And our baptismal covenant uh doesn't necessarily have such a specific name.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:44.960
You know, it is our first covenant that we make.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.920
It is we take upon us the name of the of our Savior.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:56.000
But in a lot of ways, I see I see our first covenant we ever make as the law of the law of witness.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:02.720
Because he does say, like when you take upon you my name, I ask you to mourn with those that mourn.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:08.960
And I ask you to please stand with those who need to be stood with, and to be with those who need being with.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:10.079
That's what it says.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.359
That's our covenant.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.119
Nowhere in there does it say take away the mourning, to to to give advice, to counsel.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:22.799
And we we struggle with that to to be with and to witness people in their in their pain.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.599
And that's what we just felt together when I said that that Christ would just want to hold that man and say, Come here, can I please just love you?
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.119
And and so with our own sons, that's what they need.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:38.240
They need they need men who are willing to ask harder questions, I would say.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:51.839
Um my sons, when they, you know, they it was just the other day they went and did uh something with a lot of other other guys, and it was they It was just the other day they went and did did some some fun activities with a lot of other guys.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.759
And they and they asked if they could stay out late.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.680
We don't do sleepovers, but they they always said, Yeah, you can stay out a little bit later this time.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:06.640
And so they came back and and uh they went to bed and the next morning though, it was sat Saturday morning, they got up and I I said, Hey boys, come here real quick.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.720
They came in and I said, Hey, uh, how was last night?
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.279
And I and I do think some dads even struggle to ask that.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.599
How was last night?
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:19.759
And then their kid might say, It was good.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:21.039
And my kid said the same thing too.
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:21.440
It was fun.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:22.400
They said it was fun.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:23.440
I said, Okay.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.039
Tell me what happened.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.079
What what what went on?
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:27.119
Tell me about what you guys do.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.079
And it's just open.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:29.200
What'd you guys do?
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.440
And they told me what they did, and there was a few things that happened that were a little bit interesting.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.559
And then I love to ask I love asking this question.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:40.799
Like, is there anything that happened that maybe you don't want to talk about?
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.799
Is there anything that happened that is kind of hard to talk about?
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.599
Anyone show you anything?
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:57.440
And instead of instead of waiting for my sons to be courageous enough to tell me the hard thing, I have to be the more courageous one to ask the hard thing.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:58.960
I'm the adult.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759
I'm the leader.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.720
I have to lead them into those conversations.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:12.640
I can't be naive and think that if my son is with 10 other boys, every one of them has a cell phone, that maybe one or two of those kids have zero restrictions, and there's a chance that things could happen.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:14.880
There's a chance that things could be seen.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:23.039
Hey, funny enough, my do my kids do have a rule that if somebody shows them pornography on their phone, they're allowed to say, Oh, let me see.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.680
And they take their phone and they're allowed to shatter it on the ground.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:28.400
Uh-huh.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.359
And I and I told my sons, I'm like, I will pay for your phone.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:32.480
I'll pay for their phone.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:37.839
I said, and if you do that, like I'll their parents will have to be like, what happened to your phone, bud?
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.880
And it will have to come out.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.640
Not promoting violence here, but it is something that I pro I told my boys.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.319
You're promoting the taking a stand.
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:57.599
You're taking this showing them how I think it's more, even if they don't do it, it's more about helping them understand, like, if you see it, this is physically, it's a physical manifestation of how much you want to get away from it.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:02.640
Yeah, he violated you, so you gotta do a little more of a violation that way.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:08.960
So anyway, so the to answer your question, I think that we as parents, that again, the word is attunement.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.079
We need to tune in.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:17.680
We need to actually a lot of the questions I'll say is he'll say, if if God himself came to you and said, Hey, can you give me an update on your son?
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:19.839
What could I say to him?
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.039
If I was like, Yeah, I think he's doing pretty good.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:23.759
Yeah.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.119
And Christ could say, Okay, like, what does that mean?
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.079
And I'd be like, I don't know, actually.
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:32.240
I just saw him smiling earlier today.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:42.240
And what and I though the worst thing that I would ever want to happen is if Christ said, Hey, Shayden, actually, uh Jacoby is uh he's actually not doing well at all.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.799
He's he's really struggling.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.519
And for me to have been around him but not with him, you know, that kind of a feel.
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:58.319
And so so again, it's very difficult though, and I'm saying this compassionately to men who are listening, because if it's very difficult again to model what we haven't been given.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:23:58.799
Yes.
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:08.079
And so if as a man I haven't been attuned to very well either, where other dad of my own has not really said, hey Shaden, how are you doing?
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.599
And what's going on in your life?
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:13.200
How are you how what's your relationship with these certain things?
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:14.559
How are you doing with girls?
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.160
How are you doing in your schooling?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.200
Are there teachers that you really have a diff difficult time with?
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:27.200
Those specific questions, then it's it's it's not just gonna come to me so easily to be like, oh, I'm just gonna ask all these really detailed questions with my kids.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:27.680
Yeah.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:32.000
But now that you've heard it, you can be more intentional and you can learn anything.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:33.200
You can learn to do it.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:41.680
And I'm telling you, the reward of stealing a secret from your kid is one of the best thievery we could ever do.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.599
It's the best thievery we could ever do is stealing secrets from your kids.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:51.519
Because secret, we're sick is our secrets, and our kids have so much opportunity now to have secrets.
00:24:51.759 --> 00:25:04.559
And so our our our ability to assume that there's gotta be things we don't know, and then our willingness to ask is it's uh it's is of the utmost importance, and and uh your gentleness in doing so is huge.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:18.079
I guess that's a whole nother topic, but if you have done things in the past where your kid spoke to you and actually opened up, and your reaction would tell him that he probably shouldn't do that again.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.519
Yeah, you need to own that as a parent.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:33.519
You need to go to them now before you ask them a question and say, Hey, you know, even if it was two years ago, two years ago, you said that thing to me, and I absolutely lost it on you.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.160
And that's not okay.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:37.680
And I'm really sorry.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:42.880
And I promise you that if you will tell me when you tell me things, I will I will not act that way.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.640
I have you have my word.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.599
That's what a lot, especially boys, but girls too.
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:52.079
That's what our kids need if they have exper sometimes even if they've experienced it even just once.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:26:02.559
Even one time seeing their parent take something they gave them in in in in a bit of a secret or a uh sacred way, and it being thrashed around afterward, yeah.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:04.480
That kid, he'll remember it.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:06.960
And the likelihood of him doing it again is very low.
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.920
You hit a couple of things that are really important for her to highlight.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:19.680
You know, we're only as sick as our secrets, and then this I and then you talked about how to ha ask these more difficult questions and and then how to clean up things.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:26.319
It's like there was so much around that I want to dig into because as a parent, you know, most men I don't think have this modeled.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.920
I'm guessing this is one of the many great things your dad did in that time was to be able to model that.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:37.279
And so taking someone who hasn't learned how to do that, you said anything can be learned.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.759
There's that there's that part that we do as men.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:40.240
How?
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.960
Give me the five steps, Shaden, and that's not the way, right?
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.720
Like it's more about who we need to become through the savior.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:50.000
And I'm sure the temple will be a good tie-in on that.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:06.000
What would you say to a father or a mother who feels like a, they've they've made it unsafe for their kids in the past, or B, their kids are a little bit older, maybe they're teenagers or even young adults, and they just never developed that connection and relationship.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:15.599
Like, what would you say to them who are feeling a little bit more excited about this potential, but a little bit despair of like, I don't even know how to start?
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.359
I'm a I'm an inside out kind of guy.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.160
So, and I and I think that's how the savior works too.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:33.759
What I mean by that is you've got to start inside of you, and this is like really humbling and hard to do as a parent, but you've got to get very honest first and foremost with how you view your child.
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.440
In which state do you see them?
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:40.000
Like in which way do you see them?
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.200
Do you see them as that baby you brought home from the hospital?
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.559
Just in it like who needs so much love and innocence?
00:27:46.960 --> 00:28:01.279
Or over the course of their time, especially in teenage years, have you begun to create labels for your kids where you now see them oh he's uh he's just he's just a he's just a jerk.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.799
He's just he's just he's just honre all the time.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:08.160
He's just he's just he's just like a rebel.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.519
And and oftentimes parents don't say these things out loud, or he's just a loser.
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:15.200
He's just he's broken.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:15.920
Yeah.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:16.799
Like right?
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:20.160
Like these are hard, hard realities.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.440
And again, I would say give credit where credit is due.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:24.480
That's satanic.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:35.200
And so don't and I say that kindly to anyone listening, is he's the one giving you those messages, but he's he's so timely that he's giving you those messages right when they make those dumb choices.
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:38.640
When they make sense logically, and they make sense, exactly.
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:50.480
Yeah, and so then they if they happen again and again, because our we all have patterns, so if their pattern of behavior keeps creating this way that you're viewing them in this little tiny way, then guess what?
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:52.720
I prompt one two things will happen.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.799
They will enact that, and they will fulfill that.
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.839
We become who we believe the the people closest to us think we are.
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:11.119
And again, that's why President Nelson's like, know your divine identity because your father in heaven sees you as this, not anything less.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:20.000
But as parents, we need to check ourselves at the door and see where is my and I always use the heart, where is my heart towards my child.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:30.000
And if that is in a resentful state, it is if it's in a in a in a the word is objectifying state, in in that I have lost my kids' humanity.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.160
I don't see them as human anymore.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.720
I'm seeing it as more of as an object who needs fixing, who needs changing.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:52.319
Then you have to do your work first to be able to honestly, and I say this kindly again, to repent of that, meaning come to the Savior with that, which is what repentance is, and see if he can't show you your child to you the way he sees him or her.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:57.200
That's a powerful right, and ask for that love towards them.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:12.240
And in that state now, if my heart is now softened, boy, watch miracles happen, come right out of your mouth, in words that you've never said, in sentiment you've never shown, and watch your child respond in ways that maybe you've never seen too.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:12.960
Why?
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:17.839
Because you changed your heart with God towards your kid in a way that you hadn't seen before.
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.119
Yes.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.440
I think now is a great time to talk about temple worship.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:40.640
Um as you were saying this, you know, is there's so many tie-ins to the temple, but for me as an imperfect parent, the thing that I feel impressed to say more than anything, and this is just for my own benefit, is that healing only can come through the savior.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:48.079
And if if my tendency is to, again, being a man, feeling overwhelmed, well, how am I going to change the way I see my child?
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:49.920
Like it's like it's not about that, man.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:55.119
It's I'm feeling very strongly to identify that only the savior can change that in me.
00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:00.559
It's my job to choose have the agency to look for it and to see it and to want to change it.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:20.240
That in the walls of the temple, I need to be, I want, not need, I want to be reminded of who how he sees me, and then to feel his love and to pour my heart and soul in that sacred space and in home, up on top of the mountain and back at the bottom of the mountain.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:28.000
Just that cycle of going back to get refreshed, like manna from heaven, going back and feeling just a measure more of his love.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:38.400
I I know I believe in transformation, Shade, and I believe that things can happen overnight, but I believe that the Lord allows these things to go on in a process form so that we can become like him.
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:53.440
And so it goes back to pride for me as a parent as I'm hearing you talk about this, because labeling my kids is, and I'm sure this is true for all parents, starts with some degree of pride that we hold them in that space for some reason.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:58.160
And it's not, and whatever that reason is, and if it's not for the savior, it's it's for us.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.680
And that's what we have to learn to release through giving it to the savior.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:06.640
But he's the only one who can take it, he's the only one who can transform us and help us see our child as he does.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.799
It sounds like that's what you're telling people.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:17.200
What I'm saying, yeah, what I'm saying too is, and that's such a great point, is we we we do unto others as we do to ourselves.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:32.960
And so when when we do this with our child our our own children, it's just a direct reflection on how you likely treat yourself and how you and how you allow Satan to bully you and to speak to you, and what you've you've actually become somewhat okay with.
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:41.039
So I ask my men all the time, and it's it's right here on this picture behind me, um, but if you spoke to me the way you speak to yourself, would I punch you in the face?
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:41.920
Wow.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:47.200
If you spoke to me the way you speak to yourself, where would our friendship be?
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:48.480
Would we even have one?
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:50.480
Or would I almost swing at you?
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.400
And a lot of men, they love that question.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.119
They laugh and like, honestly, yeah, you probably hit me.
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.279
If I spoke to you the way I speak to myself, I'm like, I know, man.
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:01.119
When's that gonna change?
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.720
Is that really can can we change that a little bit?
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.200
Is that how we really drive ourselves through this life?
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:11.359
But it's what most men have known, it's what most humans know, not even men, it's all of us.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:21.920
So to the extent that we've gotten in touch with that, it often then takes over into our children, sadly, is that when they keep messing up, well, our brain has been taught what do we do?
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.319
We we label it, we go hard on it, we we say harsh things towards it, even if it's just in our own heads.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:32.319
Sometimes it gets out of our mouth towards our children and it's very hurtful.
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:37.039
But that's because of the inner work that you've got to do for yourself on how you speak and treat yourself.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:48.240
So I think to take this to the temple, um in preparing for this, I had I feel like I wanted to share this, but if it needs to be, if it's too much, we can definitely talk about it.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:34:00.799
But I I was studying trauma a few years ago, and the word trauma I think is actually very much overused at this point in this in our in our social media, especially.
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:06.319
Not everything is traumatic, but what I do love about the word trauma is in the Greek form it means wounded.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:14.400
It's wound, which I love the word wound because a paper cut is a wound, and so is a German shepherd taking a chunk out of me, right?
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.239
Or sort of breaking my arm.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:20.079
Like it the the the spectrum of a wound is massive.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:25.760
Whereas trauma, that trauma has its like implication of the dog taking the arm off, kind of thing.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:36.239
So so I'm studying wound, and and it's neat because my office is in downtown Ogden, Utah, and I can be to the temple in less than an hour.
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:42.559
So I can go to the temple, I can do an initiatory, sit in the celestial room, and be back in my office in less than an hour.
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.599
So it's it's just I'm so fortunate.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:53.840
And so a few years ago, I was been again studying trauma, and and then this wound idea comes into my head, and as a therapist, I'm I you know I help wounds all the time.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:10.880
And so I go and do an initiatory, and I've done I had already done one round, and I'm standing in the the waiting area, and I'm looking down, and and I'm looking, I think, man, this sure looks like a like a hospital.
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:28.320
And I was like, that's interesting, and then it hit me, and I thought, wow, what does any parent do when their child comes to them with an oui?
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.360
Mom, look, I have a cut.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:33.440
What does a parent do?
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.280
They go through a very beautiful and simple process.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:45.199
They wash it, they anoint it, and they cover it.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.159
And then they give them a kiss on the forehead and say, You're gonna be okay.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:57.039
And in that moment, the initiatory took on a meaning to me that I had never seen.
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:00.880
That here is God, and he says, Come to my home.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.880
Come to my home.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.559
But the first thing I'm gonna have you do is I'm gonna have you freshen up a little bit.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:07.599
I'm gonna help you.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:08.559
I'm gonna clean you up.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.039
You're hurt, you're wounded.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:15.840
You have a lot of wounds that you don't even remember anymore, Will, and and Shaden.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:22.000
There are things in there that you forgot, and you don't have to find all of them to have them heal, actually.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:43.920
But if you'll come here, I will actually scan your body, and I want to wash and anoint and cover you and and and prepare you for the next room in my holy house to where I can give you things that are gonna be even heavier actually, but are gonna empower you.
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.199
But before that, I just want to heal you up a bit.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:37:03.519
And never in my life did I feel more humbled and more love, and as I went and sat in those chairs and continued to do that amazing ordinance, to feel that that's a huge part of why he wants us to be there.
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:05.599
I have the scripture open in front of me.
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:09.360
Um, 3rd Nephi 9.13 is one of my favorite scriptures.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:19.039
Um, these are the these are the Nephites who have been in darkness for three days, and then the Savior shows up and light is finally there again, which to me is going to the temple.
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.000
Like the lights finally turn on, you get to be in there.
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:30.880
And he says, Oh, all ye that are spared, because you were more righteous than they, will ye not now, one, return unto me?
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:33.280
That's the hug, by the way.
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:34.800
Return unto me, please.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.639
That doesn't mean just show up and look at me.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.000
When you think about when a kid comes home from a mission, when he returns home, do we just look at them?
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:42.719
No.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.519
We run to them.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:46.239
Yeah.
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:49.360
Then he says, if I can jump in real quick, please do.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:49.840
Please do.
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:54.079
I I have to just because I picked up I picked up my first missionary four days ago.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:01.039
So I think it's important just to kind of like give some color to that because I wasn't prepared for how that was gonna be.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:02.239
I had no idea.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.880
I um I honestly with my son, I was so happy that he was progressing.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.840
There wasn't this, I didn't think there was this angst or longing.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:11.440
People would say, Don't you miss your son?
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:12.800
I'm like, totally.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:15.039
And like, I'm so happy.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:15.599
I love it.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:24.800
I don't, I don't really like and it's in it, and so we we went to go pick him up in Texas, where he showed us a ram in Fort Worth, and we didn't know where his office was.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.320
So we're going through the front doors, and there's nothing like an airport scene.
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:29.519
We have no idea what's going on.
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.280
And then we're just trying to find the office.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:36.079
We have no idea, but we walked in right where the office was, not knowing that's where it was, and the door was open.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:41.679
And one of the sisters who is an older sister missionary was like, Humphreys, Alex is in here.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:45.280
And I thought maybe he'd be back somewhere else, somewhere far away.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:48.559
We'd come around the corner, and there he is.
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:49.760
And there he is.
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.840
And I wasn't prepared that we were about to see him.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:53.199
He just showed up.
00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:00.480
And to see him and my wife come together is impossible to describe.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:06.960
And then to hug him was one of the most powerful moments of my life.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:11.039
I didn't wasn't prepared to have that moment right then.
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.119
And um it was healing.
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.880
It was it was a healing of of this wound I didn't even know was there because it was that that part time apart.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:28.000
And so I so when you say come unto me, I hear that now.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:34.559
And that is like you said, people in pain, we just need that more than anything.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:35.280
Yeah.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:48.320
Oh, and I man, I can relate, I'll share real quickly, but when I when I went on when I went on my mission, I I didn't my dad had been diagnosed with a terminal illness, and I didn't actually know if I'd see him again.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.599
They'd given him two years to live six months before I left.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:59.360
And so when I left him in the MTC, it was I tell people it was like my funeral for with him, like I said goodbye.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:03.280
And that was uh one of the hardest days of my entire life.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.679
And um I joke though that my girlfriend didn't wait for me, but my my dad, my dad did.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.800
He was he was able to be alive be when I came home.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:13.760
I didn't know that.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:15.920
I thought he had passed on your mission, but he was alive.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:30.559
He was alive, and so he my I actually came home a little early because of a certain missionary who came home who was coming into our mission that opened up this amazing opportunity for me to be home three days three days before Christmas, and my mom kept it a secret from him.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:52.000
So he thought I was coming home in January, and so he had ALS, so he was completely paralyzed in a in a chair, and and so yeah, that reunion of of of returning unto a parent, you know, of seeing my father and and hold being held and and in in my case holding him, um, you're right, you can't replicate that.
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.400
Like it's there's nothing there's nothing like it.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:03.920
And and and I don't think we really I don't I think we as members really struggle to believe in that type of love, that Hesed, right?
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.840
That that covenantal love that Christ has for us.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:12.480
That it's when we return like the scripture says, Will you not now return unto me?
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:21.119
We're not we're not soldiers who get in line in front of him and are like it's it's it's absolute love like that he wants to just give us.
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:31.360
Because I love it because it does say, Will you not now return unto me and repent of your sins and be converted that I may heal you?
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:38.719
So he gives us divine sequence of events that occur in our healing process of return unto me.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:42.000
And I think a lot of people think that's repentance, and it's like no.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.360
He says, I want to I want to give you a hug.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:46.880
I want to give you a hug.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:47.760
Let me hold you.
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:49.599
Let me tell you it's gonna be okay.
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:51.199
Yes, exactly.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.000
And then then tell me what you need to tell.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.679
Like, let's work through it.
00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:04.239
And and in this relationship, you will you will run from your sins rather than I did it again, Jesus, like I'm just this guy, and da-da-da.
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:09.119
And like he's like, Okay, well, tell me when you're almost better, so then I can maybe help you more.
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:16.320
And and so anyway, he he this beautiful process of to me going to the temple is returning is a is always a return unto him.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:24.239
And what we do there though, to establish our own repentance and to deepen our conversion is is is part of our lifetime's journey.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.159
But I'd love that it says at the end that I may heal you.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:38.880
One of the number one the first, not even it's not one of, it is the first thing I do with all of my men is I tell them to stop asking for help.
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:40.480
Interesting.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:42.239
And they look they look at me and they're like, What?
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.039
And I said, Yeah, how many times have you asked God to help you with this?
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:47.199
And they're like, So many.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.400
And I said, How much bitterness has that created inside of you when he hasn't helped you?
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.679
And they're like, A lot, actually.
00:42:56.159 --> 00:43:05.840
A lot, like I feel like he's abandoned me, that I've I've I've asked him for I've served a mission, I I can't, you know, I've I've tried I've asked him for help, I've helped him, they feel an entitlement sometimes.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:15.039
And I'll say, Okay, so tell me in the scriptures how often a person who was blind went to the Savior and said, Will you help me with my eyes?
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.920
And how many lepers came to him and said, Will you help me with my leprosy?
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:22.559
I've been trying to put this m ointment on it.
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:24.639
Can can you help me with this?
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:30.079
And how many how many other people do you know of in the scriptures who are like, help me, help me?
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:35.519
Instead, what you do see is heal me.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:44.800
And I believe that it's he is I always say if you went to a doctor and the doctor's like, okay, Will, you have this ailment going on, you have two options.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.400
I can help you with it, or I can heal you.
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:58.960
Yeah, the difference would be under certain like, hey, I need to do a surgery where you just you just totally succumb, like you give all of yourself and submit, and let me just do it.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.719
But we're actually Asking for is like, hey, I broke this bone.
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:06.000
Could you walk me through verbally and watch me do this?
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:09.760
And and you wonder why you can't like do the surgery yourself.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.679
First of all, it's too painful.
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:13.360
Secondly, you don't know what you're doing.
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.719
You don't have the divine internal perspective to know how to heal your.
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:17.440
We can't do it.
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:24.960
And when you say heal, help what I heard in that when you said, and I do this all the time, by the way, help me overcome this.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:25.599
Exactly.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:27.199
It's about it's still about me.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:28.320
Like I love me.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:41.119
There's there's a degree of pride, and it's not again, we think of pride as like it there's a beautiful talk that is another another guest on this month talked about uh President Um Benson's talk on Beware of Pride.
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:46.800
We all he says we often think of pride as the top upper class looking down.
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.760
But the problem with with us is that we're on the bottom looking up and it's a different perspective.
00:44:51.920 --> 00:45:02.480
And it's that thing of of like understanding when we're when anytime we talk about ourselves above what the savior can do for us, we automatically are gonna have that prideful connection.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:07.199
So it's it's so like we have to submit fully and realize we can't do this.
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:08.159
We just can't.
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:14.719
All we can in that in the temple, after all we can do, all we can do is come to the savior.
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.599
That's all we can do is come unto him.
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:19.840
We think of it as transactional, right?
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:22.000
Like I'm gonna go repent and then feel love.
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.480
It's like, no, I gotta go, I gotta be held.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:25.920
I gotta go give.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:33.119
And in that moment, yes, I am I am forgiven because I am running from anything else because nothing else matters.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:37.440
And that's why I think people start to feel like this this thing called church and religion just doesn't work.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:39.039
You know, I've been doing all these things.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.320
They either blame the the the process or themselves.
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:44.559
And I'm one of those that will blame myself.
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:51.280
Like there's something wrong with me because I'm not it's like, no, man, I'm just not understanding what it is to come to the savior fully and submit to him.
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:52.159
Yeah.
00:45:52.400 --> 00:46:01.039
And I and when I introduce this to people, I I'm I'm I'm in no way, way, shape, or saying like we shouldn't have prayers where we ask for help.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:04.239
Like it's it's it's absolutely a part of our life.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:18.800
But boy, I like you just said, a sin, if sin is truly a spiritual wound, where where literally the spirit God gave me, me, me, is wounded because of a a choice I made, something I did.
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:28.480
Like you said, we we can put a cast on a real broken bone, but to have the kind of this asinine belief that we can actually heal spirit.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:30.559
Really?
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.639
Or help spirit?
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.920
Like, here's my plan to help to heal my to fix my spirit.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:41.039
I need you to come in and do this for me, God, like no.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:46.480
And that's that submission and that reality of spiritual wounds are his.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:48.639
And he already did it.
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:49.920
That's the cool part.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:51.199
It's already done.
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:57.519
He's just waiting for us to realize it that it's actually for me and not just for everybody else, right?
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.960
Um so yeah, that that will help.
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.119
I I ironically, that will help.
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:24.880
But if you are anyone who's struggling with addiction or knows somebody, please know that they are often or you are stuck in this in this loop of help me, and then you put in all of your willpower to try to do that, and then you get tired, and then it fails again, and you've and again, oftentimes the abandonment keeps building, and and you feel like God is more distant from you.
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:31.199
And that's where Satan has drawn men away from God so well, because he's broken the relationship of trust.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:38.559
But it was actually because I think in many cases that man or that person was asking the wrong thing.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:53.760
And so if if if God's will is for us to ask to be healed and we ask to be helped, his grace, in my opinion, to correct me if I'm wrong, will not aid us in doing something incorrectly.
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:59.599
He can't, if it's enabling power, he's not going to enable our false petition.
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:01.760
Well, because it goes back to agency.
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:03.679
It's again, grace is always there.
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:04.639
It's like gravity.
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:06.079
It's just surrounds us.
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.599
It it's everywhere.
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:15.519
We can choose to work with it, like in the sense that like if I'm gonna go sin repeatedly, you know, there's still grace being present in ways that I can't even see.
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:21.920
But to your point, to get healed, it's it's it's a matter of of touching the hem of his robe.
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.559
It's a matter of help me my unbelief.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.440
It's all the things we see patterned in the scriptures time and time again.
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:32.719
And I love that because that's the one thing he won't do is take away our agency.
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:34.960
It's the one thing he says, oh, and that's what we hear in the temple.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:41.039
Like it is the single greatest thing that adversary wanted to remove so that he had the glory.
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:43.519
And so he won't the Lord won't take our agency away.
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:47.119
But it's interesting because sometimes we don't understand what we're choosing, you know.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:51.039
So it's it's powerful to have that knowledge, that light and knowledge.
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:51.920
Yeah.
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:53.840
Well, Shaden, this is amazing.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.360
I would love for you to tell the audience how they can get a hold of you.
00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:05.199
I'm sure right now there's gonna be uh men, women, parents, children, young adults, professionals.
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:12.239
Um and before before I have you tell people what you were how to get a hold of you, have you just I want you just to validate.
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:15.440
Have you seen this problem at all ages and stages?
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.159
Is this something I think I know the answer, but like is this something that is affecting everyone?
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:21.119
Is it just certain groups?
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:22.000
Is it just young men?
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:23.599
Like, tell me a little bit about that.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:24.800
Oh no.
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:31.920
No, it's it's it's affecting everyone, and if you don't think it does affect you, then I you you kind of need to open your eyes that way.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:33.280
I'll say that kindly.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:41.199
Uh, because even if you are not in the the absolute addiction of it, you might be one who knows how to help.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:45.599
Because again, connection is is part of healing.
00:49:45.920 --> 00:50:08.880
And when when people who are dealing with hard things, and again dealing with a lot of loneliness, which is an absence of connection, those who aren't afflicted with it, the more that you can still understand it, will allow you to have more compassion for people who in your in your realm of of life to for you to be able to love them deeply and to maybe even ask questions that are a little bit better than how have temptations been lately?
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:11.440
And instead to actually know, hey, how's your pain been?
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.320
What what's been what's been a pain for you lately?
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:24.559
And for a wife to ask that too, it's really neat to see the wives that I've worked with before who begin that healing in their own way of hey hun, what how's your pain these days?
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:44.480
And to see these men that I've worked with who have gone from never really saying anything to be like, well, actually, um, yeah, this has been going on for me, and and I've been feeling a lot of anxiety at work and stress, and you know, I feel like nobody really cares about my efforts at work, and then I come home and I'm really tired and and just yeah, like to actually be hear heard and seen.
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:57.119
So um so be so being just know everyone is is definitely afflicted, and sadly, we do know that the the the age of of of viewing pornography the first time or being exposed to it is around 10 to 11 years old.
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:00.480
I want to believe sadly that it's probably getting younger.
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:01.599
It has to be.
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:02.480
It has to be.
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:05.039
And I would say near near the age of baptism.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:09.519
Uh I've definitely I've seen many people where it's it's you know five and six years old.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:11.679
Uh those are common stories that come in.
00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:13.039
Now, are they the average?
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:16.079
No, but I would say the average is around 10 or 11.
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.800
But again, pornography is not the problem.
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.679
It's what happened after they saw it.
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:23.360
What did who did they tell?
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:25.199
Did they have someone to talk to?
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:34.639
And so that's where if if you're the one who's on that side of the game in this in this area, you can be such a force for good to be able to attune to those people.
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:46.159
And uh, but if you're the one also, if you're the one struggling, one of your biggest hurdles is to allow others in on this thing that you've deemed so shameful when in all reality it doesn't have to be.
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:50.559
It's it's just the solution that you chose or was even given to you.
00:51:50.719 --> 00:52:05.199
In most cases, it wasn't even chosen, it was put in front of them, and the brain, the brain took that in and it it created a feeling for them of of what they thought was peace or relief, that then said, I want more of that.
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.280
Well, why would anybody want more of that?
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.840
It's because they were in pain before they ever saw it.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:13.679
So one of the questions I ask my guys all the time is tell me the pain before the porn.
00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:15.840
Tell me the pain before the porn.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:16.880
And they're like, What?
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:20.639
And I'm like, Yeah, come on, two years before you ever saw it, let's talk about your life then.
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:22.639
What was going on for you?
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:24.639
And that always opens up things.
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:25.679
They were in pain.
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:26.639
It's always there's pain.
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:35.039
Because someone who isn't in pain and they see it, or like an out like alcohol, if you never have pain, if like if your pain is seen by others, because we all have pain, so that's a false statement.
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:45.119
But if if my pain is is with people and I'm not alone in it so deeply, and I can handle it with other people, and I take a drink of alcohol, it's just it's not gonna have the effect of a s of a solution.
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:47.920
It's not gonna solve anything, it's just gonna be like a thing.
00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:48.480
Yeah.
00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:50.239
And so and and that's that's a difference.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:59.760
So so that's the game that we play, is we must, as we as we've been talking about this whole time, get in touch with that and and learn how to heal that with Christ and with Christ-like people.
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:02.000
And and that is still him.
00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:04.000
So Okay, how do they get a hold of you?
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:05.360
How do they how do they find out?
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:18.239
Because there's lots of people, because it for my two cents on this too is that Shaden, you're you obviously help people overcome people find Christ in your program, um, in overcoming things like porn addiction and that kind of stuff.
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:22.480
But it's not that's like, again, that's that's a barrier to what you actually do.
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:28.079
And then and so describe what you do in in terms of like what the outcome is, and then tell me how they get a hold of you.
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:28.639
Yeah.
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:44.960
So one of where my main focuses right now is I I work with like 35-year-old men um around that age who are like high achieving, high, high-driven guys who just really want to figure out their life, to figure out how to be more present and actually overcome what what's got them stuck as a man.
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.679
And oftentimes it includes some sexual struggle.
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:52.079
So I do work with those guys very closely, very intimately, in a very intense way.
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:57.519
And I don't take many of those men on, but just a few, and uh, that's a huge part of what I love to do.
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:02.320
So, because of that, though, I did build a program that I call Liberate, and it's on my website.
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:06.159
Uh my my company is called Motive, and I spell that M-O-T-Y-V.
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:09.039
So my website is motive.com.
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:13.440
And you can go there and purchase a very simple yet robust.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.880
It's very, it's very deep and filled with knowledge.
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:32.480
But uh it's a it's a digital course with a workbook where you can watch me on videos and go through journal and and and and therapeutic questions to walk you through this, and you can get it for oh, you know, a whopping price of like$12.99 right now.
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:33.119
So we'll see.
00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:36.800
Like I decided to take the cheapest gym membership out there and put it down.
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:42.880
And because it I want I want people to have access and and so but maybe it needs to be more expensive for people to actually commit to it.
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:43.440
We'll see.
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:47.440
But right now, it's out there for that, and it's it's I want YSAP.
00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:48.639
It's a temple bounce special.
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:50.320
It's a temple bounce special special.
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:52.079
Listen, you're not paying any bills off that.
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.239
I think it's so great that you're serving people with that.
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:58.480
And yeah, I just want to make sure everyone hears my voice saying that this is important.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.519
This is it's hard to know when you're lost in those moments where to go.
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.639
It's always the savior, and he gives us people on earth.
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:07.679
And my whole life is a reflection of the people I've surrounded myself with.
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:12.000
Any success I've had is directly proportionate to my willingness to reach out to people like Shaden.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.239
So, Shaden, thank you so much for being on the show.
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:15.840
It has been an absolute joy.
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:16.960
Yeah, thanks, Will.
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:17.679
Appreciate it.
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:19.119
Thanks for having me.
00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:26.079
Tempo Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe.
00:55:26.239 --> 00:55:31.760
Produced by Heather Humphreys, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizon and Kimberly Simbafon.
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:34.159
Wardrobe by Anne Collar.
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:41.679
These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:46.639
Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to Saviour.
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:47.599
Until next time.