WEBVTT
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00:00:08.560Before we start the episode, I have a small favor to ask.
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00:00:29.920Thank you so much for being here.
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00:00:31.359Today I'm joined by Dr.
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00:00:40.799Jennifer Lane, who spent almost two decades teaching religious education at BYU Hawaii, including years as dean, and who now researches at BYU's Neil A.
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00:00:42.079Maxwell Institute.
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00:00:54.079She holds a PhD in the history of Christianity and Deseret Book Hand Picked Her to write Let's Talk About Temples and Ritual because of the scholarship she had spent decades building.
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00:00:57.520This is a very special discussion today on ritual.
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00:01:03.200Why is this such an important part of the temple and what does this have to do with becoming like Jesus Christ?
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00:01:07.359We're going to talk about the Old Testament connection to modern-day temples.
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00:01:13.120We're also going to talk about hard-driving questions like what does Freemasonry have to do with any of this?
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00:01:17.200And why is the presentation of the endowment changing over time?
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00:01:25.200But most importantly, we're going to answer the question: how we can receive power to overcome our trials and be held in the hands of the Savior.
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00:01:28.159Jennifer, welcome to Temple Bound.
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00:01:37.200I am so excited to have you on the show and talk about this amazing book that's entitled Let's Talk About Temple and Rituals that's in my hand for those of you who are watching.
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00:01:38.400Welcome to the show, Jennifer.
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00:01:38.959Thank you.
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00:01:40.799Well, it's a privilege to be here with you.
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00:01:44.319I appreciate all the good work you're doing and grateful to be a part of it.
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00:01:45.280Thank you so much.
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00:01:49.680I the first question I have for you right out of the gate is what inspired you to write this book?
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00:01:56.000What was it that was in your heart and mind that had you it's in your introduction, but I want to hear it like what was it that had you want to write this book?
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00:02:02.560Well, there's two sides to um one is sort of what led me to want to write about temples.
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00:02:23.840And this is, I think, is my own personal experience that from a very young age, so even before I received my mission call, I um experienced through studying the Book of Mormon and feeling the power of the doctrine of Christ, that faith and repentance and making covenants was transformative.
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00:02:29.759It it it changed me as I was preparing that year, preparing to go on a mission.
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00:02:41.759And when I received my endowment before I did go on a mission, I experienced that as extension of that powerful connection with the Savior and his transforming power.
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00:02:53.759And so I I've known for decades and decades from my own experience that the temple is absolutely central to how we come unto Christ and receive the blessings that he has.
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00:03:07.199And so that became the foundation really for my desire to go on and get a PhD, um, to to want to teach religious education, which I had the privilege of doing at BYU Hawaii.
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00:03:23.520And then in in that context, to the right, the opportunity to do research and writing all along, many, many articles, an earlier book, um always kept coming back to this theme of covenants and worship.
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00:03:26.479Um, these are things I've been drawn to for decades.
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00:03:37.280Um and so I just I want other people to be able to to understand and to experience what uh has blessed and strengthened my life for for so long.
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00:03:48.080And I think I really believe it's it's a big part of why the restoration happened so that we can more fully be connected to Christ and we can share those blessings with everyone who's ever lived.
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00:03:49.599I mean, that's the good news.
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00:03:55.280Everybody is invited to come into Christ and receive um through him all that the Father has.
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00:04:01.759Um, this particular book was because um Desireed Book reached out to me.
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00:04:07.759I I had finished my work at BYU Hawaii, and my husband and I were are here where we are now in Provo.
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00:04:11.360I had a three-year appointment at the Maxwell Institute at BYU.
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00:04:25.199I had it was really the first semester or the first year I was there, and I got an email saying, hey, we have this series, and it's a series that we're trying to do to support the church's work to resolve concerns.
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00:04:36.160And um, but rather than having sort of just essays that are uh kind of anonymous uh that's very simple.
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00:04:40.240They're not gonna be as comprehensive as a book.
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00:04:40.800Right.
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00:04:45.759To have longer discussions in a a short book, but but book length.
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00:04:50.720Um but they they come from one particular person's perspective.
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00:05:03.199And so the Deseret books effort to support the church in resolving concerns about topics that they started this series and they had done some some volumes up to then time, I think about three or four.
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00:05:22.480Um so let's talk about the book of Abraham, uh let's talk about consecration, let's talk about, you know, just things that people maybe had questions about they didn't understand, and and they found people that they trusted, um, that had already done scholarship on those subjects.
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00:05:33.040They felt like they would be able to help equ church members and and others who were interested to understand um and so it was a privilege.
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00:05:46.480I mean, I I I say that you know, after all those years of doing research and writing, it it felt like this beautiful confirmation that I've been going the right direction all along to say, we hear you are the right person to write this book.
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00:05:52.079And I said, Oh, I've always wanted to be the right person to write that kind of book, and and I'm grateful that I was.
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00:06:04.879So they said, Well, what we need you to write um a quick outline, get it back to us, we'll send it up to Sherry Du and the the board and have everyone look over it and see if uh like because it the book has a structure.
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00:06:14.000I'd written a book before, but it was completely my, you know, thoughts I had, questions I had, issues I want to talk about, even though it was all about temple.
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00:06:23.839They they said this is part of a series, and so we have a formula um that we it's about answering questions, and so each chapter is supposed to answer a question.
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00:06:36.319Um, but I knew that that was only part of what I wanted to do, that the overarching sort of the narrative arc, if you will, sure was about how the temple brings us to Christ.
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00:06:52.079So for me, that's what I wanted to do, but of course needed to do it within the structure that they had, which was um also in in addition to doing that, um being sure to have questions that were were being answered.
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00:06:53.920So I tried to do both things in once.
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00:07:07.279I talk about the in the introduction that uh I'm gonna try and do two things, and that's what I tried to do was to bring what I want to do, which is more than anything help people find Christ in the temple.
00:07:07.759 -->
00:07:14.959And um and then also as because it's part of the series and that's the structure, and it's a good thing to do.
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00:07:17.439If people have questions, they should be able to get some answers.
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00:07:25.040And so each of the chapters is designed to answer one or multiple questions or concerns that people might have.
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00:07:44.399And I'm as a missionary, I understand, you know, that resolving concerns is sometimes it's not going to help anyone be converted, but it can help eliminate concerns that might be barriers for people to feel the spirit and to to find Christ themselves.
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00:07:47.199So that's a privilege to do that.
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00:07:52.000Yeah, what an honor, you know, for you to be selected by Deseret Book to help the church in this initiative.
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00:08:10.800To your last comment's point, my son, who just came home from his mission in Texas, Alex, I remember he shared with his homecoming talk how he was constantly challenged by people who, as he called, would bash and want to, these are very intelligent individuals who'd want to just tear apart the church.
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00:08:20.639And for a long time, that really was something for him that he talked about having to learn the information on so that he could talk about those things intelligently.
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00:08:23.759And he said it had nothing to do with developing this testimony.
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00:08:27.120The testimony came through experiences of the Holy Ghost.
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00:08:32.320I just think that sometimes we get too polarized in how those two things show up.
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00:08:40.480It's like this idea of we, you know, we want if we're not, if we're making all about the questions, we're missing how we convert.
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00:08:51.679And if we are going through conversion, and we're at this in the latter days at least, if you're not learning about these things, then you're not going to be as prepared for the people you love who will have those questions if you don't already have them yourself.
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00:08:57.519And I love that in both of these contexts, as you're bringing people to Christ, it's centered around ritual.
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00:09:02.559Ritual is the thing that I think makes us stand out more than anyone else.
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00:09:11.519There's different historic things that we could talk about, but in the modern day worship services that we have, we have the chapel and then we have the temple.
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00:09:16.320It's the temple where there's going to be a lot more questions, and it's all around ritual.
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00:09:23.360And this book does a beautiful job of breaking those things down in a way that's not about trying to answer the questions alone as much as bringing people to Christ.
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00:09:24.960So let me ask, let me start with this.
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00:09:34.559For people who are listening, let's talk about how the temple today is similar and different to these rituals that occurred in the temple.
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00:09:38.080Because, and maybe you could talk a little bit about ritual as a framework to start.
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00:09:39.120Like, why ritual?
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00:09:41.039Why is ritual used in the temple?
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00:09:46.399Why is this the way that Helling Father communicates these this endowment, all those elements?
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00:09:46.799Yeah.
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00:09:48.799I think it's a really good place to start.
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00:10:05.360And it you're absolutely right that people we get confused sometimes because, and that's what I I've tried to do with my research and writing over the years, is help us get a context for how rooted this is in the ancient world.
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00:10:11.600And um, when we can understand the Old Testament context better, we can understand um the temple better.
00:10:11.679 -->
00:10:14.639But but it but ritual doesn't just belong to the Old Testament.
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00:10:19.120It it is I think people there are much more comfortable with it.
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00:10:22.080We're in the modern world, it seems foreign.
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00:10:29.279But the reality is that it's much more part of our lives than we realize, but we we don't recognize it.
00:10:29.440 -->
00:10:38.960Ritual is our practices that um are they're sometimes informal, they can also be informal, but that that shape us.
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00:10:59.600Um so ritual has a a kind of it is a teaching way, it changes our hearts and it changes our minds with rather than sitting and listening to a lecture that the practices that we do shape our sense of who we are, where we're going, like what's real, what matters.
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00:11:08.480And so there's a sense of if whatever we do, um there there's a great scholar of of ritual, he's a he's a Christian philosopher, J.A.
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00:11:13.600Smith or Jamie Smith, and he's written some powerful books I think that are helpful about ritual.
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00:11:34.320Um but but one of the points he even going to a uh a shopping mall has ritual quality to it that you enter in and it's structuring your the way you you go and what you see and the process of finding what it is you desire and how do you obtain it.
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00:11:46.240Um there's a every sh anywhere in the world you go to a shopping mall, there's a structure that's very, very similar because what it's doing is shaping your heart and your mind towards being a consumer.
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00:11:56.720That it's setting up for you the very this this practice of going someplace and seeking out something is is telling you what is the goal of life.
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00:12:00.480It's to have stuff and to have the best stuff and have the nicest stuff.
00:12:00.639 -->
00:12:07.279And so the more you practice that, the more that becomes your focus in life, the more that becomes what you love.
00:12:07.440 -->
00:12:17.440And so that the practice itself, you don't need to sit and listen to a lecture and tell you consumerism is the heart of the good life.
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00:12:23.679It just the doing it changes your sense of what is the good life, what is what are we here for?
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00:12:24.559What is our meaning?
00:12:24.639 -->
00:12:25.759What is our purpose?
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00:12:43.679And so anything, whether it could be sports, it could be politics, it could be gaming, anything that we practice repeatedly focuses our our heart and our minds, and it changes our sense of self, who we are, how we fit into the world.
00:12:43.840 -->
00:12:48.240And so that's precisely what the temple does.
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00:12:55.440Is it it shapes us and was the sense of who are we, why are we here, where are we going?
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00:13:13.440And it um Jamie Smith talks about is that it count the others are liturgies in the sense that pre a number of rituals sort of next to each other, like this entering and seeking and buying and exiting, you know, this journey, you could see it in a church service.
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00:13:22.720There's a number of rituals that add up to make a liturgy, and he calls um that that we as Christians need counter-liturgies.
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00:13:29.679So that the world is shaping people to do any number of things and be any number of things.
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00:13:54.799But if if our goal is to seek God and to seek to be part of his kingdom, then we need counter-liturgies that change our our sense of what's real, why are we here, and so that the gospel gives us those, and and so what everything he says is like ten times more true about the temple, because that is 100%.
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00:14:00.159I mean, obviously, ordinances and making covenants is another critical part.
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00:14:09.840So ritual is part of it, and then there's covenants, but ritual itself is a way of learning, it's a way of changing, because learning is about growth, it's about changing, it's about becoming.
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00:14:27.919And so whatever we do repeatedly, intentionally changes our sense of direction, our sense of identity, of meaning, what we love, and it it goes deeper because it's not just words, it's not just ideas, the practice changes our hearts.
00:14:28.080 -->
00:14:44.559And that's precisely what what how ritual is really powerful in any um any religious tradition, like you have a master who you follow, but it's not just about memorizing, it's about doing what the person does.
00:14:44.720 -->
00:14:59.039And so the practices, religious practices are about this process of becoming, of going from an apprentice to to learning from a master and taking on this new way of being that you follow the practice.
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00:15:06.720As I think we're probably at a similar age to go back to um it's been remade by the karate kid, right?
00:15:06.879 -->
00:15:07.120Yes.
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00:15:09.360And like wax on, wax off.
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00:15:10.559Why am I doing this?
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00:15:27.840But as an apprentice, learning from a master, you go through the practices and you realize as you're humble and you're willing to do what the master asks you to do, you realize that these practices change you, and you are developing capacity to do and be what you want to do, but you don't know how to get there.
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00:15:41.120You have to trust that that the rituals, the practices that your master is giving you are empowering you to take on and to become what you want.
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00:15:43.840And so that's where there's a lot of trust that you put.
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00:15:52.240And and we where the Lord tells us not to trust anybody to be our teacher, except those who are people of God.
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00:16:11.840I think this is because we can be shaped and trained to go in all kinds of directions, and we have to be careful because we with what we really want to be is like our Savior Jesus Christ, we have to have him be our master, and we have to learn of him through his appointed servants, those he's given authority to teach us and to point us in his way.
00:16:12.159 -->
00:16:15.600And one of the ways that the Lord has given us, it's called the Lord's University, right?
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00:16:19.200It's it's sort of a informal, but it it is precisely that.
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00:16:23.440We don't go for lectures, we go practice in holiness.
00:16:23.840 -->
00:16:24.080Yes.
00:16:24.240 -->
00:16:29.919You even say this in your book in chapter three, um, under the very section of ritual and religious practice.
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00:16:38.559You say in the modern world, we often think about religion in terms of belief, but religious practice, what people do, is perhaps far more important.
00:16:38.639 -->
00:16:42.320It's in the actions where ritual becomes alive.
00:16:42.480 -->
00:16:50.399And I think it's important for us to remember that when we go to the temple, there's really two things that are focusing our reason for being there.
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00:16:53.360The first is the relationship that we create with the Savior.
00:16:53.600 -->
00:16:58.799And the second part is how that relationship changes us into becoming like him.
00:16:59.440 -->
00:17:09.920And so when we talk about ritual, what I just heard you say that I'm learning in real time is that there is this thing called routine that is things that we do repeatedly.
00:17:10.000 -->
00:17:13.759And as we all know, we become what we repeatedly do.
00:17:14.160 -->
00:17:21.519So in the temple, these rituals and these activities that are symbolic, which is part of the extra challenge we'll double-click on later.
00:17:21.680 -->
00:17:26.960But when we are, when we are doing these actions, we are orienting ourselves.
00:17:27.119 -->
00:17:46.640And that's something I want to make sure we double-click on because in the book, you mentioned how ritual orients us in three different ways, which by the way, as a healthcare professional, I'm a physical therapist, when we're assessing a patient in the initial evaluation, we're looking at their alertness and orientation.
00:17:46.720 -->
00:17:51.759And we orient people by the same three things you mentioned in the book: person, place, and time.
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00:17:56.480So, you know, in the mall, there's a person, place, and time, and there's an outcome.
00:17:56.640 -->
00:18:00.880And we could even say there's an idol that we are worshiping if we go there every day.
00:18:01.119 -->
00:18:01.519Yes.
00:18:01.839 -->
00:18:06.079When we're going to the temple, we're going through this orientation process.
00:18:06.160 -->
00:18:08.160And you describe it beautifully in the book.
00:18:08.240 -->
00:18:12.720And when you and your husband were in Hawaii uh monitoring the birds and the migration.
00:18:12.880 -->
00:18:17.200Would you mind sharing that story and then relate that to orientation and why rituals are a part of that?
00:18:17.599 -->
00:18:18.000Exactly.
00:18:18.160 -->
00:18:37.200So I part of, I think, because we we're we are being oriented, but we don't realize it, that it helps to recognize and that sort of being conscious about where we want to go, how important it is, like to choose, I want to become this.
00:18:37.440 -->
00:18:50.400And so people in in the modern world, they're being tossed around and being taught and being oriented almost, and then they like wake up and say, What why am I here?
00:18:50.559 -->
00:18:51.839How did I get here?
00:18:52.079 -->
00:18:57.119Um and I think that the contrast is I use the example of birds, right?
00:18:57.200 -->
00:19:11.440My husband and I are both bird watchers, and living in Hawaii, there's a pupper that comes and it it leaves and goes up to Hawaii, from Hawaii up to Alaska.
00:19:11.599 -->
00:19:18.319So during the summertime where it's it's pleasant weather in Alaska, and then when it gets really cold, it comes back to Hawaii.
00:19:18.480 -->
00:19:26.640And so, but what's amazing about the puppers is they they don't go just like from big, like from a state to state.
00:19:26.720 -->
00:19:28.480They go from point to point.
00:19:28.720 -->
00:19:30.640They come back exactly where they were before.
00:19:30.720 -->
00:19:37.680So they have a sense of, like you say, destination, time, they know who they are, they know where they're going, they know why they're going there.
00:19:37.839 -->
00:19:42.240So that there's the sense of orientation, of focus, of purpose.
00:19:42.640 -->
00:19:47.200I think we forget how important it is.
00:19:47.279 -->
00:20:09.519And we need in, we need to have, I mean, we're gonna get them whether we want it or not, but to be conscious and to be sort of agents that to be acted, to act, not be acted upon, is probably how Bednar keeps reminding us, is the deciding where do I want to go, and I'm choosing for myself what my destination is.
00:20:09.599 -->
00:20:25.279And and so if we say, I want to go home to my father in heaven, I want to be with him and my savior and my loved ones, I want to be with them, I want to be like them, then we have to, the only way we can get there is they know the way.
00:20:25.680 -->
00:20:26.000Right.
00:20:26.240 -->
00:20:32.480And as as uh President Oakes has reminded us, the Father's plan is that Jesus Christ is the way.
00:20:32.640 -->
00:20:37.200And that's what the temple does, is it gives us that like that flight plan.
00:20:37.359 -->
00:20:39.279Like, how do we get from point A to point B?
00:20:39.359 -->
00:20:43.759Somehow it's it's instinctive in these plovers, they know where they're going, they can get back and forth.
00:20:43.839 -->
00:20:45.920We need help, we need orientation.
00:20:46.160 -->
00:20:50.960And the gospel of Jesus Christ is that orientation.
00:20:51.039 -->
00:20:59.119And Elder Bednar has a great quote where he's talked about this that the gospel, ordinances, and covenants function precisely to orient us.
00:20:59.279 -->
00:21:00.960And so we think this seems random.
00:21:01.039 -->
00:21:02.720Why am I supposed to be doing these things?
00:21:02.880 -->
00:21:17.359It's because these practices, both those outside the temple, like baptism, taking the sacrament each week, studying the scriptures regularly, these these orient us, but going into the temples, we get even more orientation and we get more practice.
00:21:17.519 -->
00:21:22.880And we get we bit, I mean, sort of the physical therapy analogy, we're developing almost muscle memory.
00:21:22.960 -->
00:21:34.799We're we're we're being changed through this repetition because it's changing who we are and how we think and what we want, that we we we stay focused.
00:21:34.880 -->
00:21:45.440We remember, yes, I want to go home, because that's what the endowment is all about, is being estranged, separated from God, the fall with Adam and Eve, and we're not in the presence of God.
00:21:45.599 -->
00:21:51.440So it's a returning through Christ to get through the veil, to get back into the presence of God again.
00:21:51.599 -->
00:21:58.640And that it was true of the Old Testament, kind of going back to your earlier question, it was true of the Old Testament temple, it is true of our temples today as well.
00:21:58.799 -->
00:22:11.920Um, but very There, sort of being separated from the presence of God, you go through the ordinances of the Levitical or the Iranic priesthood, which were animal sacrifice, which appointed to Christ.
00:22:12.079 -->
00:22:16.400So you're still going through Christ, and through the blood of Christ, it's just very literal.
00:22:16.720 -->
00:22:24.079You're going through the blood of Christ, you're going through the death of Christ, which is all still true from a doctrinal point of view, but it was just literal.
00:22:24.240 -->
00:22:32.960Like there were animals who were being that were being killed, that were being the offerings were being burnt on the altar, and the smoke was ascending up.
00:22:33.200 -->
00:22:45.519And then the the priests with that blood, the high priest, one day of the year, could the whole enter the Holy Holies on um this one day.
00:22:45.680 -->
00:22:46.000One day.
00:22:46.240 -->
00:22:50.720One day, one day, one person gets to go through the veil into the presence of the Lord.
00:22:50.880 -->
00:23:09.440And that's the diff part of the difference is the ironic priesthood or Levitical priesthood, and in our day has been restored the Melchizedek priesthood, so that through Christ, I mean the the ironic, I don't think there's ironic priesthood, the high great the high priest was representing the great high priest, who's Jesus Christ.
00:23:09.519 -->
00:23:15.920And the book of Hebrews tells us that through his blood, he opens the veil so that all of us can go through.
00:23:16.079 -->
00:23:21.920And so that's this Melchizedek level where everyone's being invited through the veil into the presence of the Lord.
00:23:22.000 -->
00:23:25.279But it's always and only through Jesus Christ that we get there.
00:23:25.359 -->
00:23:28.400It was true for them, it was just, it was symbolic.
00:23:28.559 -->
00:23:35.279All of this, the the ritual cleanliness of the priests, the sacrifices of the priests all pointed to Jesus Christ.
00:23:35.440 -->
00:23:39.279In our day, all of the ordinances point to Jesus Christ.
00:23:39.440 -->
00:23:45.440They're all about his suffering and death, which is our means of getting access to the presence of God.
00:23:45.599 -->
00:23:49.279Only in and through Christ can we come back to be reunited with the Father.
00:23:49.440 -->
00:23:59.680So we're, but if we don't, if we forget that's the journey we're on, if we forget that is what we want to become, is clean and holy with him because we become like him.
00:24:00.000 -->
00:24:03.920If we forget that, we're going to get distracted by any number of other things.
00:24:04.079 -->
00:24:24.480And so going to the temple, and whether we're participating in initiatory or endowment or ceiling ordinances, anything or baptism, anyway, it's this journey from point A to point B, from being separated from God to being reunited in his presence as we have been changed through Christ and His coming sacrifice.
00:24:24.559 -->
00:24:31.359And so it's taking what was there in the Old Testament, but it's bringing it up to what it was always intended to be.
00:24:31.440 -->
00:24:38.880You go to section 84 and you learn more about how the Lord wanted to give the higher priesthood, but that the people weren't ready for it.
00:24:38.960 -->
00:24:45.359It says, okay, let me give you what I can give you, and that's Old Testament, Leviticularonic priesthood ordinances.
00:24:45.440 -->
00:24:45.599Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:24:45.759 -->
00:24:49.119Yeah, the Lord's always trying to give us as much, He just wants us to come home.
00:24:49.200 -->
00:24:52.559He can't take away agency, so he'll meet us wherever we are.
00:24:52.799 -->
00:24:55.119Old Testament, that's where they were at.
00:24:55.200 -->
00:24:59.119And there's a whole explanation in the book why they couldn't get more back then, which is really cool.
00:24:59.359 -->
00:25:08.640I think it's important people to recognize too that when you talk about power in the temple, like when we get power, the power is a default response.
00:25:08.799 -->
00:25:12.880This is just one way we get power, but it's a default response from our orientation again.
00:25:13.039 -->
00:25:24.559You know, comparing it again to physical therapy, when we're test we're we're working with the patient, we want to know if they know their name, which is the orientation to person, if they know what city and state they're in, that's location and time.
00:25:24.799 -->
00:25:26.160You know, do they know what year it is?
00:25:26.319 -->
00:25:27.279Do you know what time it is?
00:25:27.440 -->
00:25:32.640And the reason being is that gives us an idea of where their mental status is before we can do anything else physical.
00:25:32.880 -->
00:25:48.480And so when we go through the temple and we're orienting our spirit to person, Jesus Christ, place on the temple earth and the father's kingdom, that A to B that you just talked about, and time, this is a big one in time.
00:25:48.640 -->
00:25:53.920When we oriented ourselves, orient ourselves in time, we recognize the time of mortality.
00:25:54.079 -->
00:26:01.680And I think that that shift in in perspective of time is where so much of the rest of the Lord comes from.
00:26:01.920 -->
00:26:09.920Um, when in the book you talk, you share a story, a very tragic story about learning about your your mother only having days to live.
00:26:10.160 -->
00:26:21.680And can you talk a little bit about that example and that if you would you mind sharing something around that and how that that experience of growing the temple before meeting her, how that oriented you in that way to serve you?
00:26:22.160 -->
00:26:22.720Absolutely.
00:26:22.880 -->
00:26:27.279It's a beautiful um experience, and I appreciate the chance to share it.
00:26:27.440 -->
00:26:30.480And it it does point to, I think, this idea of rest.
00:26:30.640 -->
00:26:57.359And thinking back to the the devotional that Elder Kier gave at BYU Education Week just uh within the last week or so, um, where he focused on rest and the rest the Lord wants to give us, I think it is part of that is uh putting our confidence in Christ, that it's so easy to become overwhelmed and distressed because of the loss.
00:26:57.519 -->
00:26:58.960And so my mother was dying.
00:26:59.039 -->
00:27:02.880I'd known it for a while, but all of a sudden we realized there's just a few more days.
00:27:03.039 -->
00:27:06.880And so we're in Hawaii, she's in California, we're gonna go.
00:27:07.200 -->
00:27:14.640And so part of it is is is is being in a framework to process the reality of mortality.
00:27:15.200 -->
00:27:18.799So which is we can't always do what we want to do.
00:27:18.960 -->
00:27:22.079People don't la they don't stay with us as long as we wish they stay with us.
00:27:22.240 -->
00:27:26.240I mean, there's loss, there's um there's failure.
00:27:27.119 -->
00:27:34.480And so the rest, I think, comes from realizing we we don't have to do it all by ourselves.
00:27:34.720 -->
00:27:44.960And part of being in the temple and going through the endowment session was remembering mortality is just a step in the journey.
00:27:45.119 -->
00:27:47.119This isn't the end all and be all.
00:27:47.359 -->
00:27:54.240And so when you go through the endowment session, you you remember what it's about, that we're going someplace.
00:27:54.319 -->
00:27:58.640And I think it was realizing she's she's getting to go through the veil.
00:27:59.039 -->
00:28:09.440Um, that that it put her death in a different framework rather than loss, focusing on, okay, she's 64, I'm in my 30s, this is loss, this is all of these decades.
00:28:09.519 -->
00:28:13.599We're not gonna have together all these experiences, we're not gonna be able to share.
00:28:13.759 -->
00:28:33.839Instead, it it oriented we could it allowed me to experience a a time of loss as in in its real framework, the way it in the the big picture, right, puts it in context.
00:28:34.160 -->
00:28:47.839So the context of moving from one and what's lovely is you know the different temples and La Ye is one of them, where you move from room to room and you you realize you're making progress.
00:28:48.240 -->
00:28:56.160And when you finally get you to the veil and you go through the veil, you've you've already gone through a journey.
00:28:56.400 -->
00:29:10.559And it's true in anti temple because it's it's built into the endowment ceremony itself, but but sometimes it gets it gets teased out um physically, where you you pick up and move from room to room.
00:29:10.640 -->
00:29:27.200And so I think realizing she has made that journey, I think that being there together with my husband, my my brother and his wife were living in the Bay Area at the time, and they did exactly we didn't coordinate, they did exactly the same thing before they went to visit her the last few days.
00:29:27.359 -->
00:29:41.839They also went to a temple session, and they described, you know, we all went up and prayed and cried, but at the same time, feeling the peace, this this peace, this rest is knowing we're in the Lord's hands.
00:29:41.920 -->
00:29:45.519And I think rest is what the Lord wants to give us.
00:29:45.759 -->
00:30:04.640Ultimately it's means entering into his presence, but in the meantime, we can experience his presence with the spirit, and then when we're with him and he's with us, we can deal with loss, we can deal with incompletion, we can le deal with failure, knowing that it's not the big story.
00:30:04.799 -->
00:30:11.759It's just a step in the journey, and that he w has and will make everything right.
00:30:12.160 -->
00:30:20.640That separation, loss, not having done everything, because sometimes that's part of what Alder Kieran talked about, is we beat ourselves up.
00:30:20.720 -->
00:30:24.799He says, Can't we rest now rather than when we've finished everything?
00:30:24.960 -->
00:30:33.920And so knowing that we're on the journey and that we're with the Lord through through the journey, as well as he is the destination, but he's also the way.
00:30:34.160 -->
00:30:50.880So we're going to him, but we're also going with him, and having that orientation to realize my mother has been faithful all these years, she's been on the journey, she's getting to through the veil, she has she's fulfilled the mission that she was given, and that's what matters.
00:30:51.200 -->
00:31:20.480You know, I'm experiencing not having her, but she I don't have to be afraid because I have the Lord, and I think that knowing she's gonna be with him and he's gonna be with me, and even though my mother and I aren't just gonna be together, we're going to to have um we're going we we have the Lord, and that that that orientation to what is the meaning of life is walking with Christ, walking back to our heavenly home.
00:31:20.880 -->
00:31:21.839I love that story.
00:31:21.920 -->
00:31:35.119I I felt so moved by that because I'm realizing that no matter what we're going through in our lives, maybe we have uh a marriage that we're struggling in, or maybe we're not you know married and we're struggling in in a different way.
00:31:35.279 -->
00:31:41.200Maybe we have a child that we're struggling with, maybe there's a health concern, maybe there's just global worry about where we're going.
00:31:41.279 -->
00:31:49.599And when we go through, everything is all messed up and it feels like chaos and like loss, crisis, yeah.
00:31:49.759 -->
00:31:52.640The feelings before the temple and the temple are different.
00:31:52.960 -->
00:31:53.359Exactly.
00:31:53.519 -->
00:31:58.640It's that it comes from that orientation because you know, person, place, and time, it's Jesus Christ.
00:31:58.880 -->
00:32:06.400And so when we worry about that relationship that we care about so much, it's not ours to solve, Jesus has our back.
00:32:06.640 -->
00:32:14.559It's not ours to do, Jesus is the way, and it's not ours to figure it out now because it's going to happen in his time.
00:32:14.720 -->
00:32:25.119And the quote that you that you referred to, I just want to share from David Bednar gospel, covenants, and ordinances operate in our lives much like a compass.
00:32:25.440 -->
00:32:32.880A compass is a device used to indicate the cardinal direction of north, south, east, and west for purposes of navigation and geographic orientation.
00:32:33.039 -->
00:32:44.720In similar ways, our covenants and ordinances point us, and I'd say as a side note, rituals are what connect those two things in many ways, the covenants and the ordinances, point, even though they're not, even though they're separate things.
00:32:44.960 -->
00:32:54.720In a similar way, our covenants and ordinances point us to and help us always, always remember our connection with the Lord Jesus Christ as we progress along the covenant path.
00:32:55.039 -->
00:32:56.000It's all there.
00:32:56.160 -->
00:32:56.480Yeah.
00:32:56.720 -->
00:33:00.240So it's a beautiful thing to think about ritual and how this ties in.
00:33:00.319 -->
00:33:04.880You've done a great job of explaining why rituals are important.
00:33:05.279 -->
00:33:08.720Why, why do you think they're they're necessarily symbolic in nature?
00:33:08.960 -->
00:33:19.759Because sometimes I think that's where people get lost, is that like they're actually going through these motions of the rituals of maybe the tokens or whatever, and they're not really understanding that in their ritual.
00:33:19.920 -->
00:33:28.480It's funny to me that we look back at the Old Testament rituals because it's commonly accepted as killing animals as part of the ritual, and we're all like, oh yeah, that was part of God's way.
00:33:28.880 -->
00:33:31.599But what if you're not prepared to go into the temples now?
00:33:31.759 -->
00:33:35.920Some people get disoriented if they're not prepared to understand why we're doing that.
00:33:36.000 -->
00:33:40.319So why do you think the Lord leverages these symbolic things in the rituals?
00:33:40.400 -->
00:33:42.880To why is that necessary and part of the process?
00:33:43.200 -->
00:33:50.480Well, I I do I think part of it goes back to learning through practice rather than just listening to a lecture, because we can listen to a lecture.
00:33:50.640 -->
00:34:05.440It's just Jesus Christ's learning sacrifice is way, and what he's done for us makes it possible for us to move from being separated from God to being restored to his presence.
00:34:05.599 -->
00:34:11.840But in a sense of just words, and uh we can only get so much with words.
00:34:12.480 -->
00:34:45.920And so this is where I I through the years teaching Old Testament, teaching New Testament, I always, even when I was teaching New Testament, I tried to bring back in some understanding Old Testament temple, because to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, it actually the practices and the structure of the temple where because Christ is the Lamb seen from the foundation of the world, Christ is the I've just been rereading Isaiah 53, you know, He is this sin offering.
00:34:46.320 -->
00:34:58.400Um He when we understand and it it it's so foreign to our modern religious experience, and and I think that's part of why this practice has become foreign.
00:34:58.559 -->
00:35:02.880We as a church we have to keep looping back to the Old Testament.
00:35:03.119 -->
00:35:19.039We can't let it go because looking to how do we understand how what has Christ done for us that has the power to change us?
00:35:19.440 -->
00:35:34.960And um so I looking for for Christ, it's remembering it's his atoning a sacrifice, his his his suffering in the garden, that he was willing to to drink the bitter cup.
00:35:35.199 -->
00:35:37.199I mean, just stop and think about that.
00:35:37.440 -->
00:35:42.880And there's a beautiful passage in Isaiah, I think it's it's not fifty-three, I think it's maybe the end of fifty-two.
00:35:43.119 -->
00:35:52.000It's it's right around those chapters where the Lord speaks and he says, I've taken away from you the cup of of bitterness.
00:35:52.159 -->
00:35:53.760And I think, well, well, how did he do that?
00:35:53.920 -->
00:35:54.880He did it in the garden.
00:35:55.039 -->
00:36:00.159He did it the sense of symbolically of all the consequences.
00:36:00.239 -->
00:36:04.159We had to thinking symbolically is using the symbols that are already in scripture.
00:36:04.400 -->
00:36:15.840All of the consequences of everything that we and everyone else has done that would be the result that we would be drinking forever, the consequence of being ungodly is to be separated from the presence of God.
00:36:16.079 -->
00:36:18.159No unclean thing can be in the presence of God.
00:36:18.320 -->
00:36:20.800The consequences of sin is death.
00:36:21.039 -->
00:36:31.440So the the the spiritual death of separation from God is is this cup, this bitter cup that would be ours, and Christ drank it for us.
00:36:31.920 -->
00:36:41.039He took that He took our suffering upon Himself so that we don't have to drink that bitter cup.
00:36:41.280 -->
00:36:45.519And so we start to think, well, what are the scriptures saying about what Christ did?
00:36:45.679 -->
00:37:14.880And when we've when we think, okay, this is an image that the scriptures are using to teach us about Christ's atoning sacrifice and taking upon himself the sins of the world, then we we can stop and think, what is moving me from being separated from God with a fall, which is not just fall of Adam and Eve, it's me, it's my sinfulness, my things I've done that I know I shouldn't have done, that I regret, that I wish I could go back and undo.
00:37:15.039 -->
00:37:16.719And how do I get rid of that?
00:37:16.800 -->
00:37:35.519And I have to trust that he took that cup that should have been mine, he drank it in my place so that I don't have to have a cup of bitterness and the wrath of God, the consequences I can move forward and not be constantly stuck separated from God.
00:37:35.599 -->
00:37:46.400And so it's slowing down, connecting the the symbolic language, because it is symbolic, but the scriptures are full of symbols.
00:37:46.559 -->
00:38:31.039We the more we know the scriptures, the more we're going to understand the the symbolism of he was lifted up upon the cross, he was he drank the bitter cup, like these these core uh terms that help us understand what did he do to to make me free, to give me this peace and rest where I'm not separated, I'm not in chaos, and it's you know, this constant separation from God, but I can be free, I can have peace, I can move forward, I can change, I can grow, I can learn from Elder Hafen, I can learn from my mistakes, not be eternally trapped by them, um, not be condemned by them.
00:38:32.000 -->
00:38:34.320That Christ is the way.
00:38:34.559 -->
00:38:39.199He what he gave, what he did, his atoning sacrifice.
00:38:39.360 -->
00:38:45.920The Old Testament temple was always about atoning sacrifice and the restoration temples are always about his atoning sacrifice.
00:38:46.239 -->
00:38:55.920It is how through him we are gain freedom and we are not trapped, but we become clean.
00:38:56.079 -->
00:38:59.760We we become cleansed through his atoning spirit.
00:38:59.840 -->
00:39:00.880The blood we're washed white.
00:39:00.960 -->
00:39:04.239I mean, I think reading the Book of Mormon is one of the best prep preparations for going.
00:39:04.480 -->
00:39:14.400It was for me, and it still is reading the Book of Mormon every day, is it teaches us the gospel of Jesus Christ in its simplest, most pure form.
00:39:14.559 -->
00:39:16.719No unclean thing can be in the presence of God.
00:39:16.960 -->
00:39:21.119It's only through the blood of Christ that we can return to the Father.
00:39:21.360 -->
00:39:24.800That's what the endowment is teaching us as well.
00:39:24.960 -->
00:39:28.880We just have to read through the eyes of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:39:29.039 -->
00:39:34.639And there's nowhere that the gospel of Jesus Christ is taught more clearly than in the Book of Mormon.
00:39:34.800 -->
00:39:42.880And so when we we know the gospel, we know the doctrine of Christ, we then experience it, we're not just reading it, but we're experiencing it.
00:39:43.039 -->
00:39:51.280We're feeling freed, we're we're receiving those gifts of Christ to Tony sacrifice, and that that is propelling us forward.
00:39:51.519 -->
00:40:14.239We are moving closer and closer to the presence of God until finally, through all of those gifts we've received through him, we through his the veil being his flesh, like the book of Hebrews teaches it through his sacrifice, we are able to be restored and enter back into the presence of our Father again.
00:40:14.559 -->
00:40:25.840Yeah, that's so powerful to think about how you know when we are able to work through the spirit of revelation, because it says in the session that the endowment is given and understood through revelation.
00:40:26.079 -->
00:40:37.760And so when we receive a small bit of revelation over a part of the endowment, the lesson that we learn from that becomes so much more part of our spiritual DNA.
00:40:37.920 -->
00:40:48.159And so the ritual aspect of it, the doingness of it and the practicing of it is connecting for learning purposes my mind, my body, and my spirit.
00:40:48.400 -->
00:41:01.840And it's it's you know, people who are in education and everyone's heard the different ways that people are auditory or visual learners or experiential learners, we all know that experience is the best teacher.
00:41:02.079 -->
00:41:28.159And so when we go through the experience of receiving a light of inform of revelation regarding the endowment, what we're receiving truly, like you're saying, is you're it's pointing or orienting us to the savior, so that when we see that connection to whether it's a token or a sign or a piece of the presentation or something we need in our personal life that may not even seem relative to what's being presented, we feel rest.
00:41:28.880 -->
00:41:34.320And with that spirit of revelation, it becomes part of us in a way that we become more like him.
00:41:34.559 -->
00:41:40.480And so that is I'm saying this out loud for because I'm just now having this understanding as you're talking about it.
00:41:40.639 -->
00:41:42.079Like, oh yeah, that's why.
00:41:42.320 -->
00:41:44.719And so the rituals are an essential part of this piece.
00:41:44.800 -->
00:41:48.159And when we go to like Jerusalem, I know you mentioned this in your book.
00:41:48.480 -->
00:41:52.320My family had a chance to go to Jerusalem, I think it was six years ago.
00:41:52.639 -->
00:42:09.039And you're in old town Jerusalem, every major religion is represented, you know, Muslim, Catholicism, like all these different things, and they're very ritualistic, and they're not ashamed of the clothes that stand out in the way or the things that they do.
00:42:09.519 -->
00:42:12.719And what's interesting is how it builds community together.
00:42:13.119 -->
00:42:29.679There's a reason why we're in an endowment room together because we're a family as a parent, for me, nothing matters to me more other than the savior, than my children being a family loving as best they can and being together and forming that support group for each other.
00:42:30.000 -->
00:42:38.000So when we look at you know these different ways of learning and we learn to understand the ordinances, now I think it's a good time to bring up a hard-hitting question.
00:42:38.239 -->
00:42:38.719Sure.
00:42:39.519 -->
00:42:42.000What does Freemasonry have to do with any of this?
00:42:42.400 -->
00:42:44.000Yeah, it's a really interesting question.
00:42:44.079 -->
00:43:15.119I know it it kind of makes some people a little dismissive because this is clearly a part of historical context of Joseph Smith, that there there are um practices and rituals that are related and like they're even not exactly the same, that they it seemed like they're kind of the same language family in some ways, of you know, receiving tokens and moving from one place to another.
00:43:15.360 -->
00:43:30.400And um I think w one way that it's helped me, I can't give you the precise answer, is that the Lord speaks knowing having confidence, my confidence, that the Lord speaks to his children in their own language.
00:43:30.639 -->
00:43:41.280And so Joseph knew the language of Freemasonry before he received the um the presentation of the endowment for our time.
00:43:41.920 -->
00:43:43.039As many men back then did.
00:43:43.519 -->
00:43:48.719This was a very very like widely this wasn't a private thing that he was a part of, this was the majority of what most people knew.
00:43:50.320 -->
00:43:53.199Very common in his time, in his place.
00:43:53.679 -->
00:43:56.800And um and so it became a context.
00:43:57.199 -->
00:43:59.440I this is this is my thinking it through.
00:43:59.519 -->
00:44:13.440I'm not This isn't definitive, but I just think about how the Lord wants us to understand him, but part of how he speaks to us is a way that we have a frame of reference to understand.
00:44:13.519 -->
00:44:18.079So I think that might be part of how he's presenting.
00:44:18.239 -->
00:44:26.320Now that there's another line of thinking and um is the the Freemasons themselves tap into ancient.
00:44:26.639 -->
00:44:30.480I don't know for sure historically how far back they go.
00:44:30.719 -->
00:44:32.079I don't I don't know.
00:44:32.239 -->
00:44:41.519Um we have to be as convinced maybe as he was that this came down handed down all the way through through the years.
00:44:41.840 -->
00:44:47.280I think for me, what matters the most is knowing that the Lord is doing the speaking.
00:44:47.519 -->
00:44:59.519And so whatever language, you know, the Lord speaks to us and it's going to sound different or look different in different languages, but the message that he's communicating is still the same.
00:44:59.760 -->
00:45:04.800Even though if a language is comprehensible or uncomprehensible, it's just whether we know the language or not.
00:45:05.039 -->
00:45:17.840And so he's using a symbolic language that makes sense, um, that may have been sort of part of the framework for the restoration because it was a time and place.
00:45:17.920 -->
00:45:20.000He chose the time and the place and the people write it.
00:45:20.559 -->
00:45:23.119And this is in that context.
00:45:23.199 -->
00:45:27.760So I think that but even though you can but this this takes us to the next step.
00:45:27.840 -->
00:45:34.239You can use the same language, but people can use language to say all kinds of things.
00:45:34.480 -->
00:45:45.440And so that the message, the message of of Freemasonry is of human development in moral levels, of of becoming a better person.
00:45:45.760 -->
00:45:46.239A pattern.
00:45:46.639 -->
00:45:47.199That's great.
00:45:47.360 -->
00:45:51.280Yeah, that's wonderful, but it's not the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:45:51.519 -->
00:46:00.079And so even if the language is similar or even the same, the message that's being communicated with it is really the key.
00:46:00.159 -->
00:46:04.639And so it goes back to the question of not what is the language, but who's the speaker.
00:46:05.119 -->
00:46:08.239Because the speaker determines what the message is.
00:46:08.400 -->
00:46:14.800And so I think rather than being thrown off by the language, is to go back to the question of how do I know?
00:46:14.960 -->
00:46:25.519And the way to know who's speaking isn't to figure out what language is being spoken, but to have a personal witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
00:46:25.679 -->
00:46:29.039And so whatever language the Lord is speaking to him in isn't the issue.
00:46:29.119 -->
00:46:45.280It's that the Lord was speaking to him, and that the revelations come through him from the Lord Jesus Christ, whose church this is, whose house it is, and that they're for us in our day to point us to Christ, to bring us back.
00:46:45.440 -->
00:46:46.639And so that's the message.
00:46:46.800 -->
00:47:08.880The message is the gospel message, and that's where I think reading it, um it if you're thinking about language and you just go, you can get sidetracked, but I think layering it, saying, Okay, well, this is language that's given for our day, it's like Old Testament language is given in their day, because they were the the the Israelites were the only people to sacrifice animals to their gods.
00:47:09.039 -->
00:47:14.880So this is a shared language that they understood because everyone was sacrificing animals to their gods.
00:47:15.039 -->
00:47:29.599Like that, but how they were doing it, God was speaking the language of the ancient Near East, but he was giving them particular directions in that language of how to do it for them to get them back to him.
00:47:30.079 -->
00:47:39.519And so he was communicating with them in a language they understood, but he gave them very specific directions on how to do it to try to communicate what he wanted to say.
00:47:39.679 -->
00:47:53.920Because what he wanted to say, what Jehovah wanted to say to his covenant Israel, was different than how the language was being used by all the neighbors, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Akkadians, Assyrians, I mean, they were all sacrificing too.
00:47:54.079 -->
00:48:05.039But the message of the temple, even though it was using a shared language from that historical time period, was given by Revelation, and that's why it's so specific of it has to be done.
00:48:05.679 -->
00:48:06.800Why does the temple have to be built this way?
00:48:06.880 -->
00:48:15.119Why do they have to offer offerings have to be because it's God's house, it's God's communication, it's just ritual communication.
00:48:15.280 -->
00:48:19.679The the structure of the temple communicates, the offerings communicate.
00:48:19.760 -->
00:48:40.400Um, they communicate to them because they spoke that language, but he was using the language in a particular way, in a very structured way, to help them learn, to help them become, to help them feel peace, reconciliation, and forgiveness and unity, that they could be in his presence, that they could be forgiven.
00:48:40.559 -->
00:48:43.039And that's how he spoke to them in their day.
00:48:43.119 -->
00:48:44.800He used the language ancient Aries.
00:48:44.960 -->
00:48:48.960So if the Lord's using a different language in our day, the language isn't the point.
00:48:49.280 -->
00:49:05.920The point is who is speaking, and he's he's speaking to us in a way that well, obviously we need to get the spirit to learn from, but that just remembering if the Lord is speaking, then he can help me understand the language.
00:49:06.079 -->
00:49:10.480He can help because it's coming from him, it's his message, it's his house.
00:49:10.880 -->
00:49:15.280Yes, I think we get very I think we get very binary thinking like it's all one way or another.
00:49:15.360 -->
00:49:21.199And I think we have to recognize that the Lord operates in terms of of progression and failure.
00:49:21.360 -->
00:49:26.400Like we, not him, failure, we have to fail and progress to in order to progress.
00:49:26.639 -->
00:49:36.239Now, what I heard you say, and I've never thought of it this way until you described it, Jennifer, but I hear ritual learning in terms of templates and content.
00:49:36.719 -->
00:49:41.119So taking your example, you know, uh actually let me take it one step further back.
00:49:41.199 -->
00:49:46.880So if I'm filling out a resume for my first time for my first job, I can go into Word and find templates.
00:49:47.119 -->
00:49:47.440Yes.
00:49:47.679 -->
00:49:55.039What I fill them with is my information, even though it's being guided by what's your work history, those different pieces.
00:49:55.280 -->
00:49:58.480Now let's take that same example to the Old Testament.
00:49:58.639 -->
00:50:01.440Everyone's killing animals as part of their ritualistic worship.
00:50:01.519 -->
00:50:04.400It was a template of a ritual.
00:50:04.639 -->
00:50:05.920It was a template of a ritual.
00:50:06.079 -->
00:50:07.840Kill an animal, sacrifice.
00:50:08.079 -->
00:50:16.559None of the other people who were sacrificing had those sacrifices in representation of Jesus Christ's ultimate sacrifice, but the Israelites did.
00:50:16.880 -->
00:50:25.760And they knew, as we read in Isaiah, and even Job, they talk about redeemers and you know messiahs, and they knew there was a connection.
00:50:25.840 -->
00:50:38.960I don't know what their exact uh knowledge was, probably based on the same things our ability is now, but the Lord can fill any template of ritual with what he needs because with his messenger, him being the messenger, we are able to get that learning.
00:50:39.119 -->
00:50:44.079So in to in Joseph Smith's time, there was a template called Freemasonry.
00:50:44.559 -->
00:50:50.239It was filled with content that has now become what we do within the temples.
00:50:50.559 -->
00:50:57.119And uh as a result of that, being filled with that information, we are free to be able to experience it.
00:50:57.280 -->
00:50:59.840So I don't say this as a way of proving it right.
00:51:00.239 -->
00:51:19.840I say it because the only way, like you said, for us to truly gain a testimony of the temple and rituals is by being, in my case, it my personal experience was being in severe spiritual pain and really having nowhere else to go in my mind because I was just raised thinking that's where I should go, and I received a miracle.
00:51:20.159 -->
00:51:27.920That is a personal experience that if I shared verbally, members of the church would get behind, but people who are critics would look at that and go, that's coincidence, that's you filling it with.
00:51:28.159 -->
00:51:29.039But I know.
00:51:29.280 -->
00:51:34.559I know in a way that I would be wrong in every way to deny that that was the Lord.
00:51:34.800 -->
00:51:48.000So when we think about this other thing called trying to understand why the Lord uses the templates, it's not to prove it right, it's to help us understand that he communicates to us, like you said, with where we are, with what we understand.
00:51:48.239 -->
00:51:54.400So, like in the case of brother Jared, the commandment was to get the ship across the ocean.
00:51:54.639 -->
00:51:56.239Jared was the one who said we need light.
00:51:56.320 -->
00:51:57.920Here's some stones, can you touch it?
00:51:58.159 -->
00:52:01.199The Lord could have filled that vessel with light any number of ways.
00:52:01.440 -->
00:52:06.239With the Israelites, it was a pillar of fire over the temple and and in their path.
00:52:06.480 -->
00:52:13.920So how we received these tokens and these signs and these rituals is the the content is completely the Lord.
00:52:14.000 -->
00:52:16.000It's the it's the speak he is the speaker.
00:52:16.400 -->
00:52:21.119Yeah, that that keeping coming back to his house, it's his communication.
00:52:21.360 -->
00:52:31.599If he's speaking to us through a template that's different from an earlier template through a language that's different than an earlier language, it's the communication that fills it.
00:52:31.760 -->
00:52:38.800It's the meaning, the message that matters, not the means of communicating.
00:52:39.679 -->
00:52:41.920So my follow-up question to that is then why does it change?
00:52:42.079 -->
00:52:43.920Why do have we seen these changes over time?
00:52:44.079 -->
00:52:48.239Why does the temple or you know, the the things that we do in the temple change?
00:52:48.880 -->
00:52:58.159That I think is absolutely a hundred percent related to the the premise we start with is that the Lord communicates to his people in their language.
00:52:58.480 -->
00:53:14.559And so as things that would make sense in the 1830s that would have as time goes on, the presentation of the endowment has gradually evolved.
00:53:14.960 -->
00:53:38.719But it it this is goes back to having confidence and having a personal witness that it's Jesus is isn't just humans saying, Hey, let's do it this way, let's do it this way, but it's Jesus Christ speaking through his servants, um, and who are culturally, you know, in a context, person, place, time, they but he is speaking to them right then.
00:53:38.800 -->
00:53:49.840And if they're getting it, it's good, but if the point comes like this isn't making sense anymore, people are getting a little distressed, this because the meaning of his practice isn't the same as it was.
00:53:49.920 -->
00:53:52.000And so the Lord says, Well, that's not what I'm trying to say.
00:53:52.159 -->
00:53:57.599I want, you know, so he is the one who is doing the communicating.
00:53:57.760 -->
00:53:59.679He is the one who's going to change.
00:53:59.840 -->
00:54:08.079The message is always the same, but how it's communicated can change because Christ wants to reach us now.
00:54:08.719 -->
00:54:10.400Christ wants to speak to us now.
00:54:10.559 -->
00:54:31.599And so if there were things that early 20th century, 19th century weren't a problem, but 21st century like that just it it means something different for people then the Lord He wants to reach us and communicate with us today, and that's continuing revelation.
00:54:31.679 -->
00:54:32.639I think it's amazing.
00:54:32.719 -->
00:54:49.519I think it's a tremendous blessing of being part of it the Lord's living church that He He wants to reach us now and is continuing through His servants to help them have impressions and thoughts.
00:54:49.840 -->
00:55:16.800And um and part of it might come from feedback where they realize, oh wait, this is like this is fine for us, but generally people are not there being this is feeling disturbing or distressed that in the take it to the Lord and watering and praying, realizing, okay, this is how the Lord what the the way to communicate now, the message, is it's always about the Jesus Christ and the gospel.
00:55:17.440 -->
00:55:24.800The Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoso believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life.
00:55:24.960 -->
00:55:25.840That that's it.
00:55:26.000 -->
00:55:26.800That's the message.
00:55:26.960 -->
00:55:30.960It's Jesus Christ moves us from separation to God to being restored to his presence.
00:55:31.039 -->
00:55:37.199And we are transformed and freed, and we find peace and hope and life in and through Christ.
00:55:37.440 -->
00:55:38.480He is the way.
00:55:38.639 -->
00:55:42.559And so how is Christ communicated symbolically?
00:55:42.800 -->
00:55:43.920That may change.
00:55:44.079 -->
00:55:45.119And it does change.
00:55:45.280 -->
00:55:55.679I mean, we know it changes, we've lived through it, and it just means our Heavenly Father and our Savior want to reach us now, which is fabulous.
00:55:55.840 -->
00:55:56.719I'm so grateful for that.
00:55:57.039 -->
00:55:57.440Me too.
00:55:57.599 -->
00:56:07.039I think when we get confused about why things change in the temple or why revelation, why the church is being restored over time, why there's that thought of like, well, if God loved us, why wouldn't he just provide it all at once?
00:56:07.199 -->
00:56:08.960I just say, look at your kids.
00:56:09.199 -->
00:56:12.400If you have kids, do you just provide things for them?
00:56:12.639 -->
00:56:15.039And if you do, how is that going for you?
00:56:15.360 -->
00:56:30.719Because what we have learned, and everyone knows this, is that if we're in a position where we guide our kids and let them make their choices, and that how much we guide them determines is being determined by where they are in terms of their orientation as children, teenagers, and adults.
00:56:30.960 -->
00:56:49.039As it was told to me once, the difference between raising um a toddler and an adult child is that when a toddler is running through the the kitchen or the living room and they're running towards a pointy edge on a table, you move the table, you push, you talk to the child, you sit them down.
00:56:49.280 -->
00:56:57.840When in the adult child's world, you'd let them run into the corner and just hope they won't hurt too bad because they have to learn from experience.
00:56:58.079 -->
00:57:03.599So when the leaders of our church are receiving revelation, I'm not saying that there's a mistakes.
00:57:03.760 -->
00:57:07.039What I'm saying is it's it's layers of a cake.
00:57:07.280 -->
00:57:20.159And each layer is being provided by what's going on at that time and what we're able and willing to receive, as well as as we go through the learning process as a people of trusting the process.
00:57:20.239 -->
00:57:25.360It's in the trusting of the process where faith gets confirmed through the miracles that we experience.
00:57:25.440 -->
00:57:28.079And listen, I don't have a perfect testimony.
00:57:28.239 -->
00:57:34.079I have enough of a testimony to where it's not based on the changes, it's based on my personal experiences.
00:57:34.320 -->
00:57:40.159So as the changes come up, at least for me, they they always seem as like, oh, thank you.
00:57:40.320 -->
00:57:41.519That is so much easier.
00:57:41.760 -->
00:57:42.239Thank you.
00:57:42.400 -->
00:57:44.320That makes that even more clear to me.
00:57:44.480 -->
00:57:44.880Thank you.
00:57:45.039 -->
00:57:48.000That is that brings me even closer to my savior.
00:57:48.239 -->
00:57:52.400And so um, one of the things that Elder, you have the quote from Jeffrey R.
00:57:52.559 -->
00:57:59.280Holland in your book says, when one goes to the Holy Temple for the first time, he or she may be somewhat awestruck by that experience.
00:57:59.519 -->
00:58:17.039Our job is to ensure that the sacred symbols and revealed rituals, and I would say for those of us who've been going, the changes, the ceremony, clothing, the visual presentation, never distract from, but rather point toward the savior whom we are there to worship.
00:58:17.280 -->
00:58:27.519So at the end of the day, whether it's a template the way it was used or updated or changed or evolved, however you want to word it, or how we go through, it's about the savior.
00:58:27.599 -->
00:58:35.599And if we if we center it on the savior, everything will come together in a way to where we can feel the rest of the Lord.
00:58:35.840 -->
00:58:40.320Um, you as we wrap up our time, I am so grateful for this chance to be with you.
00:58:40.400 -->
00:58:50.239I one question I think that's vital that we cover in this book is is why should we return to serve in the temple as often as our circumstances permit?
00:58:50.400 -->
00:58:51.920Jennifer, why is that so important?
00:58:52.400 -->
00:59:15.039Well, I there's a beautiful um idea that I mean we know that the ordinances, when we go through for ourselves, we are receiving promises, covenant promises, which are connected with the ordinances that give us confidence and hope that we can return to the presence of God.
00:59:15.119 -->
00:59:18.639So that we can live lives of peace and rest now.
00:59:19.679 -->
00:59:46.880But that the temple isn't just for our salvation, and it is so that those blessings we've received, this is what's what's just mind-blowingly amazing and generous, and the Lord's love for all his children is manifest in that the fraction of people that have had the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is so tiny.
00:59:47.039 -->
00:59:50.480Um, you think, well, God is so mean that He only gave it to a few people.
00:59:50.719 -->
00:59:53.280The temple flips that narrative.
00:59:53.519 -->
01:00:03.599The temple is how is God's means through which we can share what we've received with everyone who has ever lived, because that's the plan.
01:00:03.760 -->
01:00:09.840He didn't intend for a tiny sliver of humanity to be able to return back to him through his son Jesus Christ.
01:00:10.000 -->
01:00:13.280The plan has always been to invite everybody home.
01:00:13.599 -->
01:00:15.360And we have the privilege.
01:00:15.519 -->
01:00:20.000I mean, I don't know why we're so fortunate, but we have the privilege of living in a time.
01:00:20.159 -->
01:00:25.199I think section, to me, section 138 is like the culmination of the restoration.
01:00:25.360 -->
01:00:44.239That the vision that everyone who's ever lived is going to be taught the gospel in the spirit world, if they want that, if they want to change and be healed and become different through Jesus Christ, their faith and repentance plus vicarious ordinances make that possible.
01:00:44.559 -->
01:00:51.679Everybody, where you've been born, when you were born, those then, I mean, those become irrelevant.
01:00:51.920 -->
01:01:02.880Nobody is handicapped, nobody is held back because of their time on earth, when they were here, um, how hard it was.
01:01:03.199 -->
01:01:11.440Christ is going to make everything right for everyone, and part of that is making sure that everyone can receive these healing, sanctifying blessings.
01:01:11.679 -->
01:01:20.960And we get, because we have bodies and people in the spirit world don't, we to participate in the ordinances, they're embodied, and so they can't do it.
01:01:21.119 -->
01:01:22.159We have to do it for them.
01:01:22.239 -->
01:02:01.679And it's a gift, it's a privilege that we get to represent them and in their place, going back to sort of Christ through the veil on our behalf, by priests sort of representing Israel, we get to to have that role to represent them one by one and bring them, allow them, if that's what they want, to receive all that the Father hath, to go back into his presence, to be sealed together as families, um, to be made whole, to be made clean, holiness and happiness, everything that the father hath is for every single one of his children, um, if that's what they want.
01:02:01.840 -->
01:02:06.079And we get to be instruments in his hands to share those blessings.
01:02:06.159 -->
01:02:18.719And that that I think is why we go back to the temple as often as we can, because in the sharing, we become like him, because his love for all his children is there's no limit to that.
01:02:18.800 -->
01:02:32.639And so the more we we share, um we we learn for ourselves, but we also we become different when we're we're doing this for others, and in the very process, we are transformed.
01:02:33.360 -->
01:02:52.639Yeah, I um had a really strong rev like real realization as you were saying that that the spirit has confirmed to me as something that's really powerful, is that you talked about when we go to the temple nowadays, we get the privilege of being um being used by the being a tool in the Lord's hand, is I think is how you said it.
01:02:52.880 -->
01:02:57.119And I realized you can't be a tool in the Lord's hand without being held by the Savior.
01:02:57.599 -->
01:03:03.920Like when you go to the temple for your ancestor or when you go for any any reason to serve others.
01:03:04.079 -->
01:03:07.280I mean, we I go off most of the time for myself, just being authentic.
01:03:07.760 -->
01:03:09.840But but when you help, you need the power.
01:03:10.480 -->
01:03:11.280There's no question.
01:03:11.599 -->
01:03:25.840Yeah, and and there are times where I have that courage and ability to go for for a relative or whatever, and I do more effort, but in those moments when I am there to serve others and I'm a tool in the Lord's hand, I am in his hands.
01:03:26.000 -->
01:03:34.079I am held in his hands, I am comforted, I am supported, I am upheld, I am uh healed.
01:03:34.559 -->
01:03:37.440And it's uh it's a line-by-line process, you know.
01:03:37.519 -->
01:03:39.360Sometimes it's not, but usually it is.
01:03:39.519 -->
01:03:43.920And and uh that's where it comes to the orientation of his time in his way.
01:03:44.079 -->
01:03:47.840And I am at the end of the day, just love how you answer that question.
01:03:47.920 -->
01:03:52.480So, Jennifer, people are gonna want to know how to get a hold of this amazing book that I can't recommend enough.
01:03:52.559 -->
01:03:54.800Let's talk about temple and rituals.
01:03:54.960 -->
01:04:03.519How do they get a hold of that book or your first book, Finding Christ in the Covenant Path, uh, and get a hold of anything else that that you that are all things, Jennifer?
01:04:04.159 -->
01:04:08.880Well, you're um, I'm grateful that most of what I've done is available.
01:04:09.039 -->
01:04:17.360Um, I mean, this is the uh let's talk about temples and ritual is still sold by Deseret Book, so you can buy it on their website.
01:04:17.599 -->
01:04:30.079You can also, you know, get a digital version as well as a physical version, both with um various ebook options, as well as a Deseret Book.
01:04:30.320 -->
01:04:36.880Um but most of the write the writings I've done up to this point are actually available for free online.
01:04:37.679 -->
01:04:38.400The research you said.
01:04:38.639 -->
01:04:47.199Yeah, so so a lot of like what builds this, a lot of this builds on is articles that I've written through the years, published a lot of them were Sperry Symposium.
01:04:47.280 -->
01:04:53.360So they're sort of this combination of taking scholarship um and making accessible to Latter-day Saints.
01:04:53.440 -->
01:05:08.480So it's written from a gospel perspective, but using um biblical scholarship to so we have the best understanding we can of of the ancient world, of these concepts, of how to how covenants work, how ordinances work.
01:05:08.800 -->
01:05:17.039Um and they uh they're just available digitally on the Religious Study Center website.
01:05:17.119 -->
01:05:18.559So it's part of BYU.
01:05:18.719 -->
01:05:23.440Um I think it's RS BYU.rs.edu.
01:05:23.760 -->
01:05:26.719Um, send me the link, we'll put it in the show notes.
01:05:27.280 -->
01:05:33.840Yeah, and and so I there's a page there that has um hyperlinks too many articles.
01:05:33.920 -->
01:05:41.920It also has a hyperlink to my first book, um, Find Advice in the Covenant Path, Ancient Insights for the Modern World.
01:05:42.559 -->
01:05:45.760Um that that deepens some of these these points.
01:05:45.920 -->
01:05:56.719And I uh uh but but going back to your last point, I I do think you know reading is good, getting more background, it certainly helped me, and I want to be able to share what I've done, which is why I was a teacher.
01:05:57.039 -->
01:05:59.760Um it's a privilege to share, and I think it can help.
01:06:00.239 -->
01:06:06.960The more we understand the ancient world, the symbols and the practices of the temple do make more sense.
01:06:07.199 -->
01:06:14.800But in the end, what you said, I think, is at the heart that the more often we go back, we are connecting ourselves to Christ.
01:06:14.960 -->
01:06:17.280We are putting ourselves in his hands.
01:06:17.599 -->
01:06:28.239We are that we are doing it for others, but but the prophets and apostles today don't shy away from promising us his blessings and his power for us now.
01:06:28.400 -->
01:06:35.760So it it's it's a win-win that the we are blessing those in the spirit world who don't have the chance to receive these blessings when they were on earth.
01:06:35.920 -->
01:06:44.639But in the very process of doing that, we are given strength and power, we're given focus, we we become oriented to what matters.
01:06:44.800 -->
01:06:52.960We we learn in the deepest level who we are, that we are children of God, we're children of the covenant, we're disciples of Christ.
01:06:53.199 -->
01:07:03.599We because we're practicing that, we're being that, we're not just being told that in a lecture, we are living that, and that becomes who we are, and so it shapes everything outside the temple.
01:07:03.679 -->
01:07:12.159The more often we go, we're practicing holiness, and so it it transfers over in a tramp it because it's transformative.
01:07:12.320 -->
01:07:17.119We are different through our temple worship, and that's the gift.
01:07:17.280 -->
01:07:24.400That's what the gospel's for is to transform us, to make us into true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
01:07:24.719 -->
01:07:26.400Ah, Jennifer, thank you so much.
01:07:26.559 -->
01:07:30.639All right, before we wrap up, we always like to do rapid-fire questions, really low-hanging fruit just for fun.
01:07:30.960 -->
01:07:31.599Young race.
01:07:31.840 -->
01:07:33.519Um, your favorite temple.
01:07:34.079 -->
01:07:34.400Wow.
01:07:34.480 -->
01:07:38.000I mean, I received my endowment in Washington, D.C.
01:07:38.400 -->
01:07:44.159Um I worshipped for many, many, many years in La EA.
01:07:44.800 -->
01:07:54.239Um I when my husband and I were in graduate school, we were um had a chance to go to the Los Angeles Temple.
01:07:54.480 -->
01:08:07.760Um, but I have to say that I I do, I think having been in La EA at the time I did, and then um being able to I know that there it's is it's a rare thing now.
01:08:07.920 -->
01:08:18.239Um now the we my husband and I treat ourselves by going down to Mantai a couple times a year because there's something about being able to go from room to room.
01:08:18.479 -->
01:08:21.760Yeah um and the Los Angeles temple's been restored that way as well.
01:08:21.920 -->
01:08:26.399And it wasn't that way when we were there, but I've been back since then and like this is it.
01:08:26.560 -->
01:08:42.560I mean that there's it's a it's just a special treat that I think if we have the means to find a temple that does have that progression, it just things click in a way because this the embodied nature of progression is it's so powerful.
01:08:42.640 -->
01:09:06.159And so just that to to experience um moving from being separated from God and then ascending to the presence of our Father through the Lord Jesus Christ as atoning sacrifice, it it's designed to change us, and it can in any session, in any temple, the the best temple is the is the closest temple, the best temple is the temple you have the next appointment in.
01:09:06.560 -->
01:09:20.000Um but you I I do think that people have a chance to and there are a few temples where you can do that, um, that it is a special opportunity, and I I'd recommend taking up that opportunity.
01:09:20.399 -->
01:09:20.800All right.
01:09:20.960 -->
01:09:22.479Well, I think we're going to conclude on that.
01:09:22.640 -->
01:09:28.960I love that because that's such a powerful final note for us to go to the temple that's nearby us and to really honor and worship there.
01:09:29.119 -->
01:09:31.840So, Jennifer, thank you so much for your time and being on Temple Bound.
01:09:32.239 -->
01:09:32.960It was a privilege.
01:09:33.119 -->
01:09:40.479Thank you so much for a great opportunity and your beautiful insights and just a chance to to celebrate the gift we've been given in our day.
01:09:41.039 -->
01:09:44.800Thank you, Jennifer, and thanks to everyone who's tuned in to our episode this week.
01:09:44.960 -->
01:09:51.760I just want to close by acknowledging that many of you are going through different trials right now, and everyone is today.
01:09:51.920 -->
01:09:57.840I think there's a degree of suffering that's occurring in the latter days that almost all saints are experiencing to some degree.
01:09:58.000 -->
01:10:11.279And I would just say to remember that when we become a choose to become a tool in the Lord's hands, we choose to let the Savior hold us and to hold our problems and our futures and our hopes and give us rest.
01:10:11.359 -->
01:10:16.479So please remember more than anything else to trust in your Lord and to never give up.
01:10:16.640 -->
01:10:17.840Until next time.
01:10:18.319 -->
01:10:24.560Temple Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe.
01:10:24.720 -->
01:10:30.239Produced by Heather Humphreys, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizon and Kimberly Simbafon.
01:10:30.640 -->
01:10:32.640Wardrobe by Anne Collar.
01:10:32.800 -->
01:10:40.159These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
01:10:40.399 -->
01:10:45.119Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to Saviour.
01:10:45.279 -->
01:10:46.239Until next time.
