Covenants Aren't Contracts: Grace, Faith, and the Temple

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Thank you so much for being here.
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You know, it's a common teaching that grace is a gift with no strings attached.
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Accept Christ, and it's done.
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Cooper Johnson spent 15 years digging into what the word grace actually means to the people who first heard it.
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And he found something almost nobody teaches.
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In the ancient world, grace wasn't a one-time transaction, it was the opening move of a transformative relationship, one that asks something of you in return.
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Today he'll change how you read half of your scriptures.
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Enjoy the show.
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So, Cooper, I'm so excited to have you on Temple Bound today.
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We're talking about relationship and then these words grace and work, and your journey is one that has has been filled with these experiences that are, I think, are gonna be incredibly useful today.
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So let's start with your journey.
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But where does this whole story begin?
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Well, uh great.
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I I'll start in the very beginning, but I won't stay too far too too long in that in that area.
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But I I was born a member of the church, uh, and uh we actually spent some time in Arizona when I was very, very young.
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Um, but we lived in West Texas uh for the most of my my uh upbringing.
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Uh so not in a real uh not a lot of members of the church.
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And um uh and then I became inactive right after high school.
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And um I just went off to college and for 10 years was 100% completely inactive.
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Um and the Lord, thank goodness wasn't done with me and and uh sent some missionaries uh to my home uh after I was married to uh someone who was not a member.
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And and so we uh our life changed within a matter of three months.
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And and uh that was back in uh in uh 96, 97.
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So then for the next you know, 14, 15 years, I'm trying to figure out how to become a good Latter-day Saint, right?
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And uh um, and so I do, and then I get to a point, and this was about 14, 15 years ago, where I just didn't feel like I understood.
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I, you know, kind of, you know, how sometimes I just found myself going through the motions, checking boxes and and all that, and and um I just didn't have an understanding, a depth that I felt like I needed.
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And and it and and I I it was really around how salvation works, uh, how the atonement works in my life.
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Uh is it, you know, am I saved by faith?
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Is it works?
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Is it grace?
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Whatever that is, um, how much is my part, how much is the Lord's part.
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And when I came to the understanding that I I don't know how to explain that, and that tells me I don't really understand.
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Yeah, I could I could explain how it how it how it didn't work, right?
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I I was real good about saying, no, that's not it.
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But um, so anyway, I decided I needed to study the atonement and figure out how all this works.
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And I went into it with the idea that I would learn the mechanics of salvation.
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Let me let me let me pause real quick right there.
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Because what was it about that part of your life where you felt incomplete around it?
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I can relate to this, this like idea of you know, salvation.
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And then you have works, you have grace, but what was it for you?
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What was it for you that was driving that?
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You were feeling incomplete around how these things connected.
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Yeah.
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I'm just curious, what was it that was inside of you that was unsettled?
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Yeah, that's that's a great question.
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I I think it was really more of just a I felt shallow in my discipleship, in my in my understanding.
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Um, even though you know I was extremely active and and I had been an elders corn president, and I had, you know, I had lots of I love teaching Sunday school, you know, ward mission leader and all these things.
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And it was wonderful until I realized that my death only went so far, and it just seemed incomplete, inadequate.
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And and and I I could also tell that I'm I'm checking boxes and and I and I see certain people that I admire, and I'm like, I don't know and understand and live the way they do, you know, and so I just started questioning things, not from a question like it's not true or I don't, it's I don't get it.
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Uh in the world.
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What's the difference between me and some of these people?
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It's funny because like I have my wife and I were talking about one of our stake, uh, our current stake president and how he lives such a consecrated life.
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And it has shown up to me as service to my family.
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Like if our family has needed him, he has shown up.
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And you can tell he wants to.
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And in my mind, as I'm being served, I'm looking at this going, I want to want that more.
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I don't want to like, I'm it's great to serve a calling and be done and feel relieved and like, oh, I got that finished.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
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There's just a different depth that I'm I'm wanting to have because you can because of the impact he made on me.
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I'm like, I want to be able to want that because of how impactful that is.
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So you're in this place of like wanting to go deeper, and you decide I'm gonna start researching this thinking it was gonna be more like a tactical understanding thing, is where I said 100%.
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And and keep in mind, this is just a side, I had been very involved in apologetics.
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Um when I first came back to the church, I wanted to be able to defend the gospel against any possible uh, you know, uh attack against it.
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I was very involved in Fair, which is now Fair LDS, you know, an apologetics organization.
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Um, and uh anyway, so I knew a lot, um, but I I felt like I didn't understand a lot or or to the depth that I needed to.
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And so it was one of those, you know, how sometimes you have those moments where you're honest with yourself just enough to realize that, okay, I'm really not where I need to be, or not where maybe I appeared to be.
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And it was one of those, kind of one of those moments, you know, for me.
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Anyway, so yes, so that uh I started studying and and I focused on the atonement.
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I want to understand this.
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Yes, tactical, uh mechanical kind of thing.
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And and so uh one of the first things I discovered at that time was the 2001 talk, Baelder Bednar, uh, in the strength of the Lord.
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Now, this is his famous enabling power, the atonement talk.
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Um, you know, he's he he says, you know, uh he goes, I frankly don't think that many of us get it.
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Uh when I think we get it, he said, I we get it when it comes to the redeeming power, but when it comes to the enabling power, we don't get it.
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And he says, that is part of what grace is, in so many words, is is it's not just what it's done for us our past life, but it's also what it's gonna do for us from here on out, right?
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Giving us strength and access to his power and all that.
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And that changed me in a in a in a great way, a wonderful way.
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And that that was like, okay, this is this is good.
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And if if my if my research and my findings had stopped there, I probably would have been satisfied.
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That was that was uh profound to me, and it changed the way I looked at it, but I wasn't done.
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So then I started discovering uh I real it was more of a realization that I needed to understand grace in a more in a more uh meaningful way.
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Because again, it it's like, okay, I get the enabling power, but how do I access that?
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And how does that work?
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And and and because I don't feel like I'm I've got more power from some other source other than my own.
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So anyway, um so I I came across, I started studying the what this term grace in the Greek it was charis, c h a r-i-s.
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Uh, what how that would have been understood by those who heard Paul use the term grace, and how he would have intended his first century Greco-Roman audience to understand it.
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And I started in, it was this scholarly, you know, there's this new, this, this academic movement called um New Perspective on Paul or something like that, outside of the faith.
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This was like high-level academics, and they're starting to realize that we've misunderstood Paul in many different ways.
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And there was a book by by John Barclay uh about this, and he talks about grace, and that's what started me on this path.
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And he's you know, grace was never meant to be this this freebie, one time in the moment, flash of of uh of forgiveness, and then it's over.
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Kind of a one-way transaction, boom, you accept them in your heart, and now you're saved.
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It's over.
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And he says, it's never.
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That's that is a it was a reformation type of lens and frame.
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And so the way grace was meant to be understood, the grace described uh, yes, it's a gift.
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Yes, it's favor.
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Um uh, and and those that's kind of the first and second layer of understanding.
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This is my lasagna method uh as I teach.
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So there's different layers of anything in the gospel, right?
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There's that shallow layer, and then you go deeper and deeper and deeper.
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So, yes, favor, yes, gift, but it was meant to be received within this cultural concept uh of relationship that existed in the ancient world, and that everyone that heard Paul and anybody else use this term relative to salvation would have understood this concept.
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And here's the relationship that he was describing that grace, this gift and favor is given by someone in the culture who is powerful, has means, status, uh, influence, okay, very wealthy.
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And they give gift a gift or favor to someone who has none of those things at the margins of society.
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And so that's given, that begins a relationship.
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Now, in that culture, there was no, you know, uh in there in the Western world today, uh, gift giving has no strings attached, right?
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You would be a horrible gift giver.
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Uh in the words of my my good friend uh Walker Wright, uh, who's a scholar in his own right, he says, you know, we're a terrible gift giver if we expect something in return, right?
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Well, that's a very Western perspective and a very modern perspective, and it's very incorrect when you apply that to the ancient Greco-Roman world.
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When a gift was given in this moment in this situation, there was something expected.
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This was meant to be a reciprocal relationship.
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So what does this person have to give?
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Well, they they can't repay the gift because they have nothing.
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So what do they what do they what do they respond with?
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Loyalty, allegiance, faithfulness.
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And so the term for that, that response is pistis, that's the Greek term, which is translated in our scriptures as faith.
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So now you have grace being understood as this gift that's being responded to with faith, and there is no faith without faithfulness, by the way.
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Um, and that starts and begins and then continues to sustain this relationship.
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So when Paul is saying, for example, in uh second chapter of Ephesians, you know, it is by grace that you're saved through faith, that what he was talking about.
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He says, this is all about a relationship, it's not a one-time thing.
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So this is powerful because um, you know, we think about grace in those two channels as one, what you described in the Western philosophy of like it's received once, nothing's expected in return.
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And then there's this other idea of like, well, sometimes we go too far the other side.
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It's it's like, well, after all the works that we do, then we're saved.
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Mean it gives that implication that we have to earn that in a way, which is not how that was meant to be translated.
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So, my first question to you is that was that the first time in your journey you started to see grace as a relationship at this point in your your story?
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Okay, so that what and and you and you was it's interesting that that came from someone who wasn't a member of our faith.
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This was these are people who were faithful who are going through and trying to like understand what was actually happening back when Paul was teaching this.
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Yes.
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So it's interesting that that did.
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So, what did that mean to you when you first realized this is about this is about a relationship?
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It's interesting because the academics can sometimes be a little black and white and a little, you know, emotionless.
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And so it was just a matter of fact for them.
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You know, these are findings that we're discovering.
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And for me, it was like, okay, it's no longer about uh how much is my part, how much is his part.
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Uh, it's it's no longer about is it faith, is am I saved by faith, am I saved by grace, am I faith saved by works?
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It was I find salvation in this relationship and where there's give and take.
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It's reciprocal, right?
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And my response to the gift that I've been offered that I could never provide for myself is now my loyalty, allegiance, and faithfulness.
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And so it's not it it it totally broke the the checkbox mentality.
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Transactional yes, the transactional base, and now through that you go from the transaction to the transformation.
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That now made the talk by Elder Bednar make even more sense because now it's it's much more so the enabling power comes from this relationship, yeah.
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And so he's now it it it was it was mind-blowing, it was life-changing for me.
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And this didn't happen in a day, you know, this was over a period of time because I started researching it and and then I found um uh brother um Brent Schmidt, I believe is his name.
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He's a professor at BYU Idaho.
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He wrote a book called Relational Grace.
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And he identifies grace in this concept, this carist concept, in cultures, uh in classic uh literature.
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And then he goes through and then he identifies it all throughout the Book of Mormon.
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And you're like, oh my gosh, of course, there it is, it's all over the place.
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So um, so he wrote a book called Relational Grace, and then uh he followed it up with a book called Relational Faith, which fits perfectly, of course.
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So this is starting to change me in how I view my part in the gospel.
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Uh and so I I wanted to become the person that I should be uh being changed by.
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You know, I should be, I should be transformed, I should be changed.
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I wanted that more than ever.
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And so I wanted access to that power.
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And so all of a sudden, you I I I started studying the scriptures a little bit more.
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My prayers started to change.
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Um, I started seeing people differently.
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Um and I'm like, you know, I look back, I uh every now and then I'd kind of look back on the last year and I'm like, wow, I am different.
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And and and he's he's changed the way I see people.
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I and and again, over a period of time, I started to I didn't want to criticize people as much.
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I didn't want to judge people as much.
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Um, I wanted to give people the benefit of the doubt.
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Um and and so I'm like, this is what he means when we start to see people the way he sees them.
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And again, I don't want to take credit for any of this because I I I this was not me.
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It's hard to talk about the transformation and not make it about us, but it is about, but like he died for us.
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He's changing us, but he is the change.
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He is that he is that transformation.
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I'm just the result of his of his work.
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I I really, if you knew me before and know me now, you would know that it's it's not me.
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That that wasn't that I was a very different person before.
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Um, and so I'm I started to see how that's so then along the way, I'm starting to realize, I start to continue this search into, you know, uh really the etymology of of terms and words and concepts.
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And I start to realize, like, for example, the word believe, right?
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John 3, 16, that uh whosoever should believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Well, that term, that term is pistiwu.
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I'm not sure if I pronounced that right, but but it it sounds a lot like pistis, which is faith.
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And it should, because it's it's a relative term, and it's to entrust oneself to, to rely upon.
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Okay, it's not just intellectually believing.
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Okay, I believe that he that there was a man named Jesus, he was, you know, suffered and died for me.
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And I it's it's like, okay, now I'm gonna rely on him, I'm gonna trust him.
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So it's a it's kind of like faith.
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Um, one of my favorite sorry to interrupt, but can you give an example of that?
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What do you like?
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What does that look like?
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Give me a situation where instead of believing, you're trusting.
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Yeah, so I used to believe in a very modern, flattened uh perspective of the term.
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So that's you know, intellectual belief, right?
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I acknowledge that to be true.
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So, yes, I I will tell anybody Jesus died for me, he suffered for me, he and and the effect of the of his death and suffering paid for all the things I've done wrong.
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And I believe that.
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I believe that to be true.
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That is what it used to be.
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Then it became no, it's am I relying on him?
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Do I really trust him?
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That's that's far more than just a today version of belief, right?
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Yeah.
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And so if I trust somebody, it's kind of like if I'm lost and I don't have my phone and I don't have a way to find a way where I'm supposed to go, and I stop and ask somebody, if they say, Yeah, you just go down here, take a left.
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Well, if I trust them, I'll do it.
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But if they gave me some reason not to trust them, like they didn't really know what they were talking about, then I'm not gonna do it.
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That's that's trust, right?
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It it drives action, it drives behavior, it changes who you are.
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So anyway, that that that's the difference for me.
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Um thank you.
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So so all of a sudden John 3.16 comes becomes different.
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Um, uh Ephesians 2, 8, and 9 become different, right?
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:30.559
So so so these terms are changing the way I view them, and they and they're fitting perfectly with, of course, the restored gospel, but but it's just the way I'm not I'm not changing definitions, I'm I'm reframing, um, right?
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.400
Um that that excavation process.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.759
I'm I'm digging the the real It's a different layer of the lasagna.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:36.880
That's right, exactly.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:37.359
Thank you.
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.400
It was the lasagna was always great and it was meaningful.
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.920
And as we with our agency choose to dig a little deeper, we get abundant knowledge.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.640
I think that's one of the biggest things we learn in the temple is that the greatest gifts we can receive in this life is knowledge.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.480
And that knowledge shapes behavior, perception, reality, right?
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:55.359
100%.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:56.000
Yeah.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.680
And you you you just give me a great uh segue to the next term.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.799
You said knowledge.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.079
Um, so the next word is is the word know, to know.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:05.279
K-N-O-W.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.359
Um John 17, 3, right?
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:15.200
Uh, and this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God in Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:16.319
What does it mean?
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:17.519
What is that to know?
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.880
Is it again, is that just an intellectual knowledge?
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:27.519
Um, but the there's there were several different Greek words they could have used that would be translated as no.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:37.200
But the word that was used here and that John uses uh more than any other um New Testament author is gnosko.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:52.240
Ganosko is um is an experiential relational knowing, the most intimate kind of knowing that we can obtain.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.440
Um it happens in a relationship as you get to know.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.880
Someone far more than at the surface level.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.119
You and your wife have gonosco for each other.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.039
You know each other really well.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.359
You and I probably don't really have ganosco yet, right?
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.519
Maybe eventually we become really good friends and and we obtain that.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:27.519
But so um so that's the kind of so now I'm starting to realize everything is relational, experiential.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:36.000
Um so it's it it just went from you know intellectual to personal and real.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:42.960
Uh and and so that kind of became my foundation.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:44.960
And again, it's everywhere now.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:56.000
I mean, it's just it's amazing to me that that the language and vocabulary of the gospel and of salvation is 100% relational.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:58.240
You know, and so yeah.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:05.599
I just I just want to highlight something that you said there because you know, we talk about trust in relationships, and these are two terms that are coming up.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:10.000
There's a knowing, there's trust, and how it relates to to relationships.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:18.319
And it's we all have examples, I hope, of people who show up for us in the hard times, in the dark times.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:24.799
That's for me, is ironically, I don't say ironically, I don't even want to say unfortunately.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:30.400
It's just a matter of fact that it seems like there needs to be challenge and trial to know.
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:32.319
And here's a here's a case in point.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.720
I interviewed a couple that's um going to be on the show in September for National Recovery Month.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:44.079
And this brave couple is coming to the table very loudly about his pornography addiction.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:51.039
And they're very transparent about both of their journey in this capacity of learning to turn to the Lord.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:24:00.319
And the thing that they said that resonates with what you're saying now is that they really learn to trust the enabling power of the atonement.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:05.599
Like they not just believe in it, but they've seen it in their lives because they had nothing else to turn to.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.640
They literally were just like, this is all it was this or divorce or whatever other options were out there.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.519
And as they gave of themselves to that trust, it reciprocated.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.440
And so it again, it wasn't transactional, it was always there.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.720
They were just able to access it through their belief and their faithfulness.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:31.359
And I love that you distinguish between faith versus faithfulness, and goodness it's faithfulness because faithfulness implies imperfect, imperfect effort.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:44.160
And so for them, as they went through this journey, the resulting capacity, and this is very hard, like this was such a profound moment for me, was at the end of the episode, they would they chose they said they we would do it again.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:45.599
They're still working through it.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.319
It's not like they're at this place of perfection by any means.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:57.680
They were very transparent about that, but they said what they learned about the savior themselves and their marriage, like he can he can trust her.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:02.720
There's that knowingness that you mentioned of like, I know what I have in her.
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.359
Yeah.
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:08.319
And she knows what she has in him, and they know what they have in the Lord together.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:21.759
And so I appreciate you hitting that relational piece because as we're talking about grace, it it's it's tied beautifully to faithfulness, trust, um, and hope, and all of these different things.
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:28.160
So I I just wanted to double-click on that because I think there's something to be said about what this actually looks like for people as they're struggling.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:29.680
It's usually through trials.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:30.559
100%.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:44.079
And it's and it's it while this is, I was discovering this in the context of my relationship with the Lord, it is 100% true in our personal relationships, right?
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.079
So it's vertical and horizontal.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:54.079
And and and so it has taught me a lot about that as well, about my relationships with those around me, those I love, those I don't love.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:03.599
You know, uh, so yeah, it's it's uh it it it really is powerful if you can allow it to work in in your life, no doubt.
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:31.359
So you've gone through this journey, you're at this point now where you're really diving deep into knowing these elements and it's changing you as and it feels like don't I want to put words in your mouth, but it feels like what's happening for you is that as you're understanding the relationship and how that unlocks things for you in terms of the enabling power of the atonement, you're just choosing to want to get to know the savior even more, which is then changing your perception of others, it's changing the way that you see your life.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.039
Is that is that a fair way of putting it?
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:33.839
Absolutely.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:34.799
Absolutely.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.599
Okay, so when was this and what what was going on for you at that point and what happened from that that point on?
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:44.319
Like now that you have this, this like different perspective, which is gradual, it's not all at once.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.359
It is, it's very gradual, it's happening over time.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.279
I uh it's happening, you know.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:27:01.759
Um I I was an early morning seminary teacher for for three years, um, and I'm I was that's where I was continuing to discover it as I'm you know, the old testament and and I'm finding this, you know.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:09.119
For example, the you know, the Hebrew term, you know, even uh, you know, President Nelson uh was fond of and he used in a couple of talks was Hesed.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:12.240
And I'm sure you've you've you've you've I know you have.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:13.119
I've heard it on your own.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:18.880
But please say it for those who are hearing, I don't, and everyone assume that everyone knows what is Hesed and what is that what's thinking about that.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:30.319
So Hesed, yeah, it's it's it's the term that the King James translators could not find uh one English word, uh, and so they had to combine them generally.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:44.319
Most of the time it's translated as loving kindness, uh, other times it's translated as mercy, but it's it is the kind of love that God has for us, and it is absolutely covenantal love.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:59.759
And so I started to see you know all the things I had been learning about relationship and and and and experiential relational knowing and and uh and and faithfulness, and and I saw that in Hesed.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:05.039
These are not terms that were brand new to those in the New Testament.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.440
Uh it was just a different language in the Greek.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.480
These were concepts that existed, you know, uh thousands of years before that.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:36.799
And so um, and so I started to learn a concept that it was, I mean, Joseph Smith taught this, it's been taught for many different ways, but I don't know that it hadn't, at least for me, trickled down to me, but I started to realize that God uses cultural understanding to teach his children.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:37.599
Right?
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:49.839
So, you know, for example, covenants, and this is kind of starts to go into um as I relate this to not just the temple, I mean to covenants in general, but 100% in the in the temple.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.039
Um, and I'll explain you know why why that matters.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:29:05.599
But um covenants existed, that was a a cultural idea and concept that God used to establish relationship with his children.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.279
So for you know, back if let me can I share a quote?
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:10.400
Yeah, please.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.079
Uh, because she explains it so much better than than I can.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:15.440
This is Jennifer Lane.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.640
She's an uh a Latter-day Saint scholar, academic, and she wrote a book on the temple.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:21.680
And I really loved it.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.920
It's a short book, but it's really, really good.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:28.079
Um, and I love Melinda Brown's as well, by the way, uh, one of your former guests.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:31.759
But Jennifer Lane, you might want to might be a guest you should try to get on.
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:39.680
So here's what she says: creating covenant relationships is central to the father's plan of redemption and the primary function of the temple.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:44.559
Today we often associate covenants with contracts, impersonal agreements between people.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.079
Anciently, however, covenants were much more personal.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:55.200
In the church, we know that we make promises with uh, we make promises to God with our covenants, and God in turn makes promises to us.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:00.160
As we understand the ancient sense of a covenant, these promises take on a deeper meaning.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:09.920
In the ancient world, covenants weren't just a series of promises, but were used to create new relationships, like adoption or marriage.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:16.559
Covenants made in sacred places created a new family relationship with the Lord.
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.400
How beautiful is that.
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.599
If I'd heard that in the Sunday school, I've been like, of course.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.759
But but I really I'm starting to like, I need I want to completely separate it.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.960
It's not like I would have said, Yeah, they're not the same thing, but they're similar.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:41.759
No, they're not.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:46.799
You know, and it's it's hard because we teach that in the sense of like, you know, it's a two-way promise.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:48.079
That is very hard.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:53.440
It's very easy to jump over to like, yeah, this is a two-way agreement, which is a covenant, a contract.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.920
A covenant, a covenant is a creative relationship.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.799
So it's not a contract, it's a creative relationship.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:18.319
And I just and I think about it like I'm having some revelation as you're talking about this because I'm starting to realize, like with my own kids uh, Cooper, like if I wanted to help them become the best versions of themselves, obviously I want to be that person who can um have the experience of life.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.319
I have means and money, I have things I can do to help raise my children.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:33.119
And if all I did was just give them all that stuff and never want anything back from them, like not contractually, relationship, like from a relationship perspective.
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.759
Yes, I am going to ruin my kids.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.079
Like I just give and give and give and go, well, no, that's a Western philosophy thing.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.759
Like if they love and and by the way, there are things that we do like that.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:50.079
I'm not saying that all of that is isn't isn't online with what we do as parents, but what do I want for my kids?
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:55.519
Let's want my kids to be able to have the space to make their own choices.
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:03.839
And my hope is that they'll choose me, because if they choose me as someone in their their life that will be meaningful for them, I can continue to develop that connection.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:10.559
And so um, so let's maybe better said is that covenants, what you're teaching me is covenants aren't contracts, they're not even related.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.960
Covenants are connection.
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.000
Maybe that's the best, the easiest way to remember it.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:25.599
Connections, and then, you know, back in the old testament has said is what sustained that connection and relationship, right?
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.920
That covenantal love, right?
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:41.839
Um, so uh so anyway, so so fast forward to um about a year ago, um, if I could take take the the next step just to kind of explain uh what brings me here.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:47.279
But um, so I had taught early morning seminary for three years, loved, loved, loved it.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:49.359
Um, I love the youth.
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:56.799
And I loved being able to help them frame the gospel and and discover while I'm discovering.
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.799
And and so anyway, I I was ready to go for you know for my fourth year.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.200
I was gonna do the full rotation and and uh and then I get called the stake present.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:06.720
He's like, we got different plans for you.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.720
And and he says, we're gonna release you.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.000
And you say, Are you okay with that?
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.039
I said, no.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.160
I said, I said, seminary is the best calling in the church.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.160
He goes, I know, but we've got something else for you.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.839
So so I was called the high council with the assignment to the YSA ward.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.359
And I'm like, oh, okay, well, that sounds pretty cool.
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:24.000
Okay.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:28.799
So one of my best friends is the bishop of the YSA ward.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:33.119
Uh, one of my best friends is the bishop of my now, uh, of my family ward.
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.359
Um, but uh, so I'm like, okay, this is awesome.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:41.359
So one of the first things he asks me to do, he says, we we need someone to teach temple prep.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:46.079
And I said, Oh, okay, that's new for me, but uh yeah, no problem.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.480
He goes, now you need to know that temple prep isn't just something we do every now and then.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.079
This is a YSA ward.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.599
And so it's a constant cycle.
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.519
We end one series of lessons and we start another class.
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:01.759
Um, I'm like, oh, that's wonderful.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:02.319
I love it.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.759
Okay, let's go.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:11.599
So um the previous uh teacher of the class, uh, he says, Okay, here you go.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:13.199
I'm gonna send you all my slides.
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:21.119
And he sent me the slides, and it was just it was the curriculum that the church had produced, and it was all these quotes and and it was wonderfully done.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:22.639
And I'm like, man, this is great.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.000
I don't have to really do anything.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:30.079
And I started going through it and and I started started teaching, and I'm like, oh, this needs this needs a little more.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:39.599
Um, you know, just it it just it wasn't hitting in the way that I wanted it to hit, and it didn't seem as relatable.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:51.440
And so I started redesigning, staying true to the topics, but I started redesigning it with the foundation that the Lord has been teaching me over the last 15 years of relationship.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:35:03.679
And right out of the gates, in the very first lesson, we're talking about grace and chorus and this relationship and faithfulness and and the whole we, we, we, we established that.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:09.840
And I didn't even realize at the time, there's so many things that I didn't realize I was doing.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:22.159
The Lord knew what he was doing, but connections that are being made with temple covenants and with with symbolism and with with it could because it's all about relationship.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.639
And I didn't know that.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.199
I just wanted to make sure they understood grace.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.360
Why was grace so important to frame for these young adults?
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:37.280
Why was it I I mean I have my opinions, but could you please explain why before you even talk temple?
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:42.880
Why is grace and clarifying that understanding of the relationship foundational to the understanding the temple?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:56.400
Well, I I discovered as a as a seminary teacher that that you know in high school, in this age, they are really looking for the why in just about everything that you teach.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:56.800
Why?
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.679
Why is that so?
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:58.559
Why does God do this?
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:02.960
Why does God and so naturally that's gonna be true?
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:07.119
Uh, and of course it's true for for all of us, but that's when it starts to become more important.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:18.400
And so I thought I want to make sure they understand um the why and the how of uh of these terms.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.400
Why do we need to have faith?
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:23.599
Um why do we need to believe?
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:25.760
Why do we need to know?
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:33.599
Um, and that's all answered in this experiential relationship, a real relationship.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:37:12.400
And so I wanted to establish that as a foundation that I could use throughout the lessons because I just knew I didn't, I didn't have the all the connections made, but I knew that in the grand scheme of thing, the temple, the endowment, the ceilings, these are these are relational, and it's all meant for us to uh deepen uh our relationship with God so that He can continue to change us and ultimately teach us, train us to some degree how to live the life he lives, and that's eternal life, right?
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:17.119
And so it made so much sense to me to start there.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:40.239
What I didn't realize at the time as I started doing that is how uh perfect this fits with the understanding of covenant, and that it's almost like the the covenant concept and framework is just the older way of framing the chorus framework, right?
00:37:40.480 --> 00:38:02.880
It it fits perfectly um because just like I read from Jennifer Lane, that's how God established relationships, and when he sent his son and he and who to suffer and die for us, he was once again teaching us through this gift how to establish a relationship with him through the savior.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.000
It just it just it's just the logical next step.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:06.960
Does that make sense?
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:07.440
Yes.
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:14.480
Yeah, so it seems like you've tackled this whole concept of grace and understanding these things so that the why could be really revealed.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.360
This is listen, this generation, they want to know the why.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.119
It has been researched.
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:27.360
This is something generationally, um, you know, every generation now has a name which never existed when I was growing up, but like this new generation coming up, they are all about the why.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:35.280
So whether you have a young adult in your life or you're a young adult listening to this or a child, it's it I believe it has something to do with the gathering of Israel.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:41.519
They are very intent about not judging or being judged and the why.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:49.760
And so I believe that has a lot to do with their spiritual forordination to bringing us all together as in one family as they're accelerating in the latter days.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:54.719
And so the why, if I think I heard you say that in your description.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.079
Could you could you say it again?
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.400
Like, what would you say to a youth who's listening to this?
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:00.480
Like, you know, why is it important?
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.159
Why is the temple important?
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:10.639
Yeah, so uh gosh, there's just so many, you know, the the things that we highlight, the way you answered that.
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:18.559
That youth, that YSA is gonna probably regret asking me that question because it's gonna, we're gonna be an hour later and they're still gonna be.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:20.079
I see, because it's because it is a lot.
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:26.880
It's a it's it is a lot of understanding, it's almost like unlearning some of these top layers so you can learn deeper layers of the lasagna.
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:27.280
Yeah.
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:27.920
100%.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:40.159
And so the first thing I would say is that the temple is not it's not a checklist item, it's it's not a performance, um, it's not of uh uh a body of information to master.
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:52.719
It's the place where covenant relationship with God um deepens um and ultimately becomes identity.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.800
Um that was really well said, by the way.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.760
I want to put that on my son's mirror.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:02.800
Like, because the identity is everything.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:09.920
I am, you know, when my kids, if my kids ever say, Oh, I'm so stupid, I'm like, stop right there.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:11.280
Let's talk about that right now.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:20.159
There's no there's no loosely throwing that out there because what we believe we are has so much to do with what we become, and it has everything to do with what we become.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:26.639
So I love that that like celestial identity, son of God, daughter of God, has everything to do with why we go.
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:28.639
Yeah, it's central to everything.
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:41.039
I mean, you look at the way Jesus um, you know, all of his his interactions with everyone, he that was one thing that, you know, he wanted to connect and he wanted to give them identity, right?
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:46.800
The woman at the well, uh, the the the you know uh the daughter of Jerry's.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:51.360
I mean, you know, he he would refer to them as daughter, he would, I don't condemn any anyway.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:58.719
So identity, connection, relationship, that's all uh uh intertwined and and and uh and it all fits perfectly.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:40:59.840
But that's that's the idea.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:25.039
So so when we talk about this this covenant relationship um that is to deepen, really that's how we're endowed with power, is that this relationship that is gives us enabling power and strength to become someone that we wouldn't otherwise be be able to become because we wouldn't have access to that strength, strength, and power.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:39.599
It's the deeper relationship because it gives us context, it gives us color, it gives us um, you know, that that foundation that we didn't have before, and we it changes our desires.
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:41.840
So that is what the temple is for.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:48.719
Ultimately, it is, you know, this life is, you know, many prophets have referred to it as you know, it's like a school, right?
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:50.159
We're here to receive an education.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.559
Well, what kind of schooling, what kind of education?
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:56.719
To learn how to live the kind of life that God lives.
00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:01.519
I mean, if you want to blow somebody's mind, that's that's really what this is all about.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.119
So, so how does he do that?
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.360
That's the so so how and why?
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:06.400
So, how does he do that?
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:14.559
Well, he does that through ritual and symbolism, through covenant and ordinance, through worthiness.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:15.679
That's another topic.
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:19.440
We spent a whole lesson on worthiness in our temple prep classes.
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:24.400
Um, a lot of people want to stay away from that, and I get why, um, because it's tough.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:34.159
But it's um we I try to reground that concept in a different place from judgment.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:54.880
Um and uh and so anyway, through all of those things is how we deepen that relationship and and and and we we gain access to to a deeper, more profound power and strength, and and ultimately our identity changes and becomes transformed.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:02.159
That term a son of God, a daughter of God, it becomes more meaningful.
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.239
Um you know what I mean, than just something we hear all of our life.
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.760
Where it means the most for me has been through trials.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:21.199
I keep coming, I think I keep bringing this back to the surface for some reason, but it's this idea that we came to Earth to know what joy is by understanding what suffering is.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:37.039
And I have seen it so many times with guests on the show and in my own life, to where the thing that we never wanted to have happen happens, or some version of our expectations fail, or someone in our world is legitimately suffering.
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:43.039
Like, and that's that's like whether it's us or somebody else, and we just are left to ask why?
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:44.159
Why are we here?
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:45.360
Why are we doing that?
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:51.920
From a simplistic perspective, it's like, well, so that we have no one else to turn to but to Jesus, and that's how we're transformed.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:59.760
And that that's such a weak way of describing that process because anyone who's ever been in the on their knees in the middle of the night begging for a miracle.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:06.960
Can understand that that that reaching out into the darkness is far from transactional.
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:22.480
It is where hopefully, as our youth go to the temple and start to debase that foundation, that when that storm comes, they will know who to turn to, because in that storm, he always shows up in his timing and in his way.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:36.079
And even when it's not in the miracle we want isn't occurring, everyone I've seen in this room, in my podcast studio, has shown me ways that he still lets them know that he's mindful of them, that he's there.
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:42.719
And those miracles oftentimes are the capacity to endure, the hope for another day.
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:50.079
And in some times, yes, an actual fulfillment of the miracle that completely manifests the power of the savior in our lives.
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:56.000
But all of it is relational and all of it is meant for us just to go be back with him.
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:58.559
And in so doing, we become like him.
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.800
So it's it's interesting how trials are a necessary part of this.
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:14.559
And even in the temple, we see the how they're they're expelled from the Garden of Eden and how that the challenge, it's in the pain, it's in the challenge that we find peace and joy and ultimately ourselves.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:16.480
Yeah, that's powerful.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:23.519
Um could I add one thing that uh I I hesitate because that was really, really well, well said.
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:44.719
Well, um, I one of the things that when we are in those trials, uh, one of the things that gives us uh strength and power is that trust, that knowing that God is there and that he will get us through.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:51.440
Even if we haven't seen how he's gonna do that yet, even if it hasn't come in the timing we want it to come.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:04.480
So for example, if you have a uh when when you have had trials in your life, you have come to know how your wife is going to respond, the strength she's gonna be to you and you to her, uh, right?
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:08.639
I mean, you've been able to, I'm sure you've come to a point where you can rely on that.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:17.599
So that's because of this deep, wonderful, graceful, and relationship.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:20.559
That's experiential relationship that you have.
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:22.559
And it is a covenantal relationship, right?
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:25.840
You have covenanted to each other with God, but to each other.
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.559
That's what covenant really, it's commitment, right?
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:30.320
So you've and you've experienced that.
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:31.920
You've experienced the highs and the lows.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:35.599
So now when the next thing happens, you know you can rely on her.
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.119
And that in and of itself gives you the strength to push through, right?
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:44.239
So even when the the help, before the help comes, we have that.
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.880
So the same is true in our relationship with Heavenly Father.
00:46:49.199 --> 00:47:13.360
So that's why this whole conversation, this whole thing that talking about relationship has become so powerful to me is that in that relationship, when things happen, you don't have to wait for the help to come to know that you can trust, you can rely upon, and you know he's gonna be there and it's gonna be okay.
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:21.039
And you're gonna get through it, and you're gonna come out of it usually stronger, better, closer than you were before.
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:29.360
And yes, and I think so, like you can trust it in that it's gonna be okay, and that there's a purpose behind it.
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:38.320
I think going back to the kids and their why is that when it has been said, and I'm I'm gonna butcher this quote, but but pain without purpose is suffering.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:41.840
Pain with purpose is transformation.
00:47:42.239 --> 00:48:05.119
And so when we have that clarity that like there's a reason for this, even if we don't understand that the precise reason why that's occurring, even especially when it's someone we love who's suffering, we we can trust that the Lord has something so important for that person to learn that it's going to be okay in a way that, like I saw with that couple, they would choose it again.
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:07.840
They would choose the pain again.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:18.480
So there's a degree that I think suffering, suffering, I think, is a manifestation of a lack of clear purpose and a lack of hope that it will ever end.
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:24.880
When we think that it's permanent, when we think pain is permanent and there's no purpose, is where suffering really exists.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:33.119
And the temple teaches us more than anything that all pain, all this has a defined purpose and that there is a definitive end.
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:40.480
And for ultimately we can get through it, we are able to lean on the atonement that enables us to do things that we, like you said, with my wife.
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:41.679
Man, I will say this.
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:42.880
I can trust my wife.
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:47.119
And this is gonna be one of those moments where people who are struggling in their marriage are going, oh, they've got a perfect marriage.
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:47.679
No.
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:50.320
My wife and I are imperfect human beings.
00:48:50.480 --> 00:49:02.639
I know what I can count on in her in every way, including, and she can count on me where I'm strong and where I'm not, where I will flip out, where I will act out, and where I won't.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.559
And there's but there's trust there.
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:09.119
But there's trust and there's evolution through the atonement that we are progressing.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:09.920
Right.
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:11.840
And that's that's it.
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:15.760
Progress in those moments is everything because it's hope.
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:16.880
Right.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:17.679
Excellent.
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:18.800
Excellent, wonderful.
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.559
So you're at this point now where you're teaching, you know, you know, temple prep.
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:30.480
Tell me a little bit more about like where are some of the things that you connect with, where are some of the things that you like to teach to them so that they can deeper deepen their understanding of this.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:40.400
So um, you know, the the the highlights, um, you know, kind of the main topics that that that we cover.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:43.519
Um we do it in seven lessons, by the way.
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:45.119
I know that's a lot.
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:48.559
Uh that's that's the way the lessons are supposed to, you know, be done.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:50:04.000
But and but I just decided to stay true to the topics and and and uh and try to build understanding and and and and make it relatable and and really again go to the why on every topic.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:11.199
So we're talking about worthiness, symbolism, um, ordinances and covenants and and and laws.
00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:20.800
And I I've I've started to integrate Melinda Brown's perspective on laws, uh, uh, you know, the the whole uh natural law as opposed to legal law.
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.480
I love her concept on that.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:32.639
Um and I'm starting to, I've actually already built the slides and I've put them in and and funny how like our can our where we get wrong has everything to do with how we see the world legally now.
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:38.159
Like so we're thinking about covenants aren't contracts and laws aren't uh control.
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:43.840
You know, she says, as you know, and it was in the previous episode, she says, remove the word law and replace it with the word love.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:46.719
The love of chastity, the love of of consecration.
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.960
It's it's about it's not about this again.
00:50:49.119 --> 00:51:01.199
I think it's that our perspective, our Western world's perception of legalities that mess up what we see happening inside the temple, especially when you know, religion outside can seen in general as a form of control, you know.
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:04.480
And in this case, it's like, well, that's the adversary over here.
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:06.719
It's all about love and freedom and choice.
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:07.199
Yeah.
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:07.679
Right.
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.280
So so if I could say a couple words about a couple of those things.
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:16.239
So um just just about an approach and again, a reframing and the why.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:17.920
So worthiness, for example.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:24.239
So we had we spent a whole lesson on this, and you know, the temple recommend interview and and what it means to be worthy and and all that.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.639
So we I I really try to reframe that whole thing.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:33.119
And this is not about uh, you know, are you good enough?
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:35.280
Uh, are you doing enough?
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:40.480
Um, it's not about being judged, it's about being ready.
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:45.360
It's about being prepared for the next thing.
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.840
It's it's about capacity.
00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:58.320
Um are you ready to move to the next thing that God has ready to teach you and to draw you into that relationship deeper?
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:00.559
Um, that's really what it's all about.
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:19.440
So if you can sit, you know, go through those, that that temple recommend interview, and and it's it's really about the the questions asked and the answers given are basically telling you, okay, yeah, I guess I'm ready for the next thing.
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:34.800
Uh do I have the capacity to go to the next level in my understanding and in my relationship with the Lord, to make additional covenants, promises, commitments, which are all going to be about this relationship.
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:40.480
Am I ready to access more of his strength and power?
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:51.920
And so that's the the general idea and how we try to reframe the you know what it what it means and why it's there.
00:52:52.400 --> 00:53:00.960
Um we found, you know, it's there's a foundation, you know, back in the Old Testament, in the Psalms, you know, and come with clean hands and pure heart to the temple.
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:03.760
Um, so this isn't a new concept either.
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:10.480
God has always wanted us to be prepared and ready to come to his house.
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:13.360
So that's that's kind of how we treat it.
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:17.519
What I love about that framing of worthiness, that just completely opened my mind.
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:26.400
I love the idea, and remember, and I just want to always highlight anytime that I can that worthiness isn't um perfection.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:26.880
Right.
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.239
It's not as the talk goes, it's worthiness isn't flawlessness.
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:37.920
This is this so when we talk about worthiness, again, this is like a us evolving over time, doing the best we can and failing often.
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:45.599
Um, but understanding it from a perspective of being ready for what's next completely changes how I see that.
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:53.679
And it helps me give lots of grace to myself of just like, yeah, I'm just trying to get more prepared.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:54.480
And here's why.
00:53:54.639 --> 00:54:06.000
One thing I've learned as I've really dove deeper into the temple is this idea that like whether it was Moses' time or today, Heavenly Father has one major challenge that he's gonna, of course, overcome.
00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:13.199
But the challenge is that he we can't actually sustain his presence in a fallen state.
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:21.599
That's like the main thing is that in order for us to learn and grow, we had to come to this fallen state where we were going to learn through mistakes and sin.
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:22.719
Like that's the path.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:26.800
That this isn't, you know, repentance isn't the correction to the path, it is the path.
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:30.079
And we and so how does he overcome that?
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:41.519
So it's like it, it's it's just a this is where the laws of of gravity in that relationship kind of come into it, is like we can't sustain his presence unless we grow our capacity.
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:50.480
It's not by the way, it's not us growing our capacity, but use our agency to access atonement, which is what enables us through grace to sustain his presence.
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:54.079
And so it's it's always about him just wanting to be with us.
00:54:54.400 --> 00:55:01.280
Simplest terms, when I'm with when my kids were born from that point on, obsessively, I just want to be around them.
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:02.880
They're all leaving the house now.
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:06.079
Like my two, my youngest kid just started high school today.
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:08.880
And I told my wife, I am legitimately sad.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:12.559
I am very happy that he's progressing and he's doing all the right things in that regard.
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:16.559
I'm sad because in order for him to grow, he needs to leave our home.
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:19.199
And this is another big step for him in that regard.
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.920
All I want is just to be with him because I love them.
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:26.400
And their their existence fills me with so much joy, right?
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:26.719
Yeah.
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:30.719
And it's like, that's what our Helling Father has at a level we can't comprehend.
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:38.559
And that's why words like Hasid are so vital, because it's like it's not just this bond of our agreement and our and our covenant relationship.
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:45.280
It's it's a degree of love that is so overwhelming that we can't even comprehend it with our mortal minds.
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:56.000
And so I love that you talk about worthiness from a place of readiness and not like you know, being filthy or clean.
00:55:56.239 --> 00:56:02.639
It's more about it's more about this like progressive desire to be ready for more love and growth.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:03.360
Right.
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:04.079
100%.
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:07.039
And that's that's the covenantal pattern, you know.
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:14.000
Um, we don't baptize when they're one year old, you know, when we we wait until they're ready to understand, right?
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:14.480
Yeah.
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.199
They're ready to make the first covenant in with baptism.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:31.440
And it and it and so it just makes sense, but yet um we generally and specifically, um, you know, those that that I'm uh fortunate enough to teach, you know, don't always think about it that way.
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:39.440
And so it's just really more of a reminder, and again, just uh digging a little deeper to to get a better perspective uh on things.
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:43.760
Um I think the same is true with symbolism.
00:56:44.559 --> 00:57:00.800
So um I think we, you know, part of the um challenging or some of what what they what people would see as the difficult side of someone's first uh you know uh trip to the temple to receive their endowment.
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:03.360
I mean, it and it's it's just different.
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:14.239
Um it's different just because you know we're just not used to that, that kind of ritual and symbolism and ceremony related to our gospel learning, right?
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:22.880
It's there, you know, certainly we have the sacrament and and that it contains so much symbolism um to renew covenant.
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:30.800
And but um so I try to remind them first of all that symbolism is everywhere.
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:36.159
And we are so used to symbolism that we forget that we're seeing it.
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:48.159
Um and so it is it is everywhere in your car, the the the street signs, it's it's you know, the the stoplights, everything is symbolism all over all around you.
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:52.000
And the Lord has always used symbolism to teach.
00:57:52.159 --> 00:58:03.199
Um, and it's throughout you know the Old Testament, it starts in the Garden of Eden, um, and uh and it continues that Christ in his ministry taught with parables.
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:09.199
Um, you know, and so we I try to establish that it's that it's this is nothing new.
00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:12.320
It's just new in this in this way.
00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:18.800
Um, and then we and then we start to get again to you know to the wise.
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:23.360
Um, you know, why does God use symbolism to teach us?
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:26.880
And we can come up with a few things, but we we sometimes we forget.
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:31.039
And it took me really thinking through it in this context to teach.
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:36.239
Um, you know, one thing, you know, symbolism slows us down, right?
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:40.960
Because we have to kind of think through it when it's when there's a symbol.
00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:47.840
And again, I actually present a little slide that has a list of all the different kinds of symbolism, right?
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:54.639
It can be a sign, it can be a gesture, it can be a hand clasp, it can be a uh all kinds of things.
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.880
It's a it's a ring on my finger, it you know, there's all kinds of symbolism around us.
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:02.960
And so there's lots of different symbolism types of symbolism in the temple.
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:11.280
Um, but it always if we approach it in a thoughtful way, it slows us down a little bit, right?
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:19.360
Um, so it invites us to pause, to consider, um, to find connection.
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:28.480
Um, and so, you know, I think it it invites us to ponder as opposed to just rush through it, which is what can happen if we're just being fed information.
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:33.119
Because if God just wanted us to know, he could do it in a very different way, right?
00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:33.440
Right.
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:43.920
And again, it's the experience of recognizing and and letting symbolism penetrate that makes it more powerful.
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:45.440
Um, does that make sense?
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:56.000
Yeah, it feels like it feels like experience is something that you've hit on numerous times, is that there's going back to the lasagna of learning, it seems like the deepest layer is learned only through experience.
00:59:56.320 --> 00:59:57.599
Yeah, 100%.
00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:08.079
And that is part of the symbolism in in the ritual, in the ceremony, and in the things, because it invites our participation, right?
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:17.760
Uh we we can't we we don't get through um the temple without participation in it in the symbolism.
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:24.960
Um but it but it teaches, it can and should teach more than just you know an intellectual level, right?
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:28.559
Because we are participating and because we're experiencing.
01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:37.760
So um it it you know it's kind of the the experience is more of the language that of of the heart, you know.
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:59.519
Um, so so I try not to, I don't point out, you know, obviously as a as a as a teacher of of a temple prep, I can't, I don't have enough time to point out everything, to explain everything, nor should we, because one of the beauties of of symbolism is that um things lose meaning when they're overexplained.
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:02.719
Right, and and maybe even spoon-fed, right?
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:05.199
Like it's they lose their meaning when it's just like here you go.
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:06.559
Yeah, this is what it means.
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:13.199
Well, it and and so um, so and that's one of the reasons why symbolism, another thing is that it grows with us.
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.039
The symbolism doesn't change.
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:25.440
The symbol doesn't change, what it represents doesn't necessarily change, but we do, and throughout life, this what it means to us changes.
01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:27.920
It's kind of like the ring on the finger, right?
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:36.400
Like it's a symbol of marriage, and the the relationship in that marriage has so much to do with how you see that symbol.
01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:48.639
You know, I I that ring on my finger, very different feelings than I that I have now versus back then that are deeper, more more like connected because of the experiences that we've shared over the years.
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:49.119
Right.
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:58.239
And so if somebody explained that all that to you in the beginning, that wouldn't mean near as much as you learning through your experience, right?
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:01.119
I would actually feel like they were just they were just judging me, honestly.
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:17.760
Like if someone said, Hey, you're ringing at 27, this is what it's gonna mean for you, and this is what's gonna happen, and you're gonna even if they they had like the the the book of my life and were telling me actual things and I knew they were telling me the truth, I would still just look at them like okay, or maybe I'd take it as a nicety, maybe I'd feel judged.
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:22.239
It it has to be, and this is this is such a great like analogy for parenting our kids.
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:26.239
Like, you know, when they're little, we have to protect them from hitting the corner of the table.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:31.360
When they're adults, we just have to hope that they'll stop running straight into the table eventually.
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.679
They have to experience the pain and they we have to let them fail.
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:36.800
We have to let them go through that.
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:41.599
Now, listen, we don't want them to do anything that's permanent, and we have to step in in those extreme cases.
01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:45.519
But for the most part, we have to even in those cases, we don't have control.
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:48.400
They have to experience that and that anyway.
01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:51.119
Yeah, I can only imagine what Helly Father feels for us.
01:02:51.360 --> 01:03:09.599
Yeah, and and and when applied through um through eternal uh learning, it um it almost protects what's sacred because I can't teach you something that will automatically become sacred to you, right, intellectually, right?
01:03:09.840 --> 01:03:16.800
But that only happens through that experiential participatory learning and recognizing, right?
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:21.599
Yeah, and and so all of a sudden then that starts to sink in and become sacred to you.
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:26.159
And so I think that's another another wrinkle uh facet to the symbolism.
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:36.000
Yeah, in the process of experiencing, we underst we understand it at the level, so we can pay it the right respect, which is what we talk about when it comes to being sacred, right?
01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:51.360
It's it's a sacred relationship when we've really gone through the the horrible experiences of life and the great ones too, not just to paint the dark ones, but just over time we get sacred feelings because of of how vital it is.
01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:53.840
You understand it at the level it was meant to be understood.
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:55.360
Right, right.
01:03:55.679 --> 01:03:56.000
Yeah.
01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:06.000
So anyway, that's that's kind of, I mean, of course, we go through some of the specific symbolism, you know, of of you know, of clothing and and and those kinds of things, you know.
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:09.119
That's that's the Greek word of induo, right?
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:12.960
Where endow comes from is it means to be clothed.
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:30.639
Um and and so to, you know, when he says in in Luke, I don't know, 24, you know, uh tells the disciples and the apostles to stay in Jerusalem until you are endowed with power, until you are clothed with power.
01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:45.119
Right uh and so all of a sudden the symbolism starts to become rich when you realize that that's exactly what God did for Adam and Eve right from the beginning.
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:48.880
That was his first response to to sin or transgression.
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:51.119
Okay, I'm gonna clothe you.
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:55.679
And in that in the ancient world, right, clothing identity comes again.
01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.239
Clothing absolutely means identity to be clothed.
01:04:58.559 --> 01:04:58.960
Absolutely.
01:04:59.360 --> 01:05:05.679
Um so anyway, the these these threads just continue to run throughout, and you're like, this is just amazing.
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:16.239
My you know, so my my testimony and absolute conversion just has grown as as you start to recognize all this, and and it's uh it's wonderful.
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:18.079
Well, you can see the passion in you.
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:19.360
I you know, you feel it.
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:21.599
It was when we first talked on the phone.
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:26.880
I I feel like the analogy would be that like you just came back from Disneyland.
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:33.599
This is a horrible analogy, but you just came and like no one knows about Disneyland, and you've had it, you've had a day at the park, like, guys, we can go to this place called Disneyland.
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:37.599
And it's like, and so I think that's why you know we we're talking now.
01:05:37.760 --> 01:05:49.920
I think that's why you know we're disappointed when you were released from a seminary teacher, but excited as you started teaching temple prep is because I I think that's the like normal response to someone who receives a greater degree of grace.
01:05:50.079 --> 01:05:53.039
It's in that change, we want to share it with everybody.
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:54.960
So, what would you want to say?
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:57.199
What is it that you haven't said that you would want to share?
01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:58.960
If if if you're complete, that's fine.
01:05:59.039 --> 01:06:11.519
But I'm just wanted to give you some Space in case there's anything that we that you haven't had a chance to say that you you feel like you need to say there's two things that come to mind.
01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:44.159
One is no matter no matter where you are in in life, um, you know, if you're just starting to figure a couple of things out, if you only have a desire to know, um, you know, and we've heard that before, um, or you consider yourself a a well uh educated disciple of Christ, no matter where you are, one thing I've learned is that there is so much more.
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:49.119
That it's never complete, it's never done.
01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:53.840
There's been times where, you know, when I discovered grace, I'm like, okay, I have figured it out.
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:54.639
I did it.
01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:55.679
This is it.
01:06:56.159 --> 01:07:01.119
And then every step of the way, as I continue, it's like, oh my gosh, there's so much more.
01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.440
And it's like, I think that's what the Lord wants us to understand.
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:08.000
Guys, there's so much more.
01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:17.760
And and it it really does, with every step, it you see the change happening, that that transformation.
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:24.559
It's crazy when you can kind of look and say, gosh, yeah, that that has changed me.
01:07:24.639 --> 01:07:27.280
I I and so anyway, that that's one thing.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:28.800
There's always so much more.
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:30.480
Don't don't stop.
01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:34.159
You know, there's been so many times in my life where yes, I was stagnant.
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:36.320
I just I wasn't progressing, I wasn't growing.
01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:40.719
But since I discovered, you know, if it all starts with Grace, right?
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:43.199
It which and it always will.
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:44.079
It always will.
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:45.519
It all starts with him.
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:47.760
He's the one who moved first, right?
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.800
Um, but there's always so much more.
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:54.239
That's that's that's the the one thing I'd want to make sure people know.
01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:55.199
Love that.
01:07:55.440 --> 01:08:03.199
Very inspiring too, because I think it helps not just people get from being unstuck, but I think it's that thing of like when we put it things in cruise control.
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:04.800
I that's my that's my biggest thing.
01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:05.039
Right.
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:06.800
Is I get over tired.
01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:07.360
Please go ahead.
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:08.239
Well, I'm sorry.
01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:08.719
I'm sorry.
01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:09.440
One more thing.
01:08:09.519 --> 01:08:12.800
I I'm sitting there going, this has just been rattling around.
01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:14.239
It's like you got to get this out.
01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:34.560
One other thing is that there's times where just there was a guest that you had, one of your episodes, they said they compared um temple attendance and and really temple worship with scripture study, in that not every time is going to create this amazing spiritual experience, right?
01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:37.600
And and and and that that is absolutely true.
01:08:37.680 --> 01:08:42.960
And that that that's one of those times where I I was on a bike ride, I'm listening to the podcast, I stop.
01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:48.560
I gotta, I gotta enter that into my notes, my my temple notes from from temple bound.
01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:51.359
So um, so that was that's absolutely true.
01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:53.520
But here's one thing I have discovered.
01:08:55.439 --> 01:09:02.399
Listen, but some of my most spiritual life-changing moments.
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:11.039
Okay, a lot of the life changing happens over time, but there have been moments that changed me where you just you make a discovery.
01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:25.119
Um, I spent like a month in uh in chapter four of First Nephi one time, because there was something there that I I I felt like I wasn't getting.
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:32.640
Now, this doesn't happen very often, this at all, but but in this moment, there was something that the it's like the spirit was saying, You don't get it yet.
01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:39.039
Go back, let's keep going, keep studying, keep looking, researching, go down this rabbit hole, go down this dirt road.
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:43.279
And then it happened one day.
01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:55.199
And what I learned uh is uh probably another episode, but um it changed me.
01:09:55.359 --> 01:10:16.800
And and so, and this has happened more than once, but my the what I learned from that, the principle is stay with something when you hear something like okay, you just listened to that podcast, or you just read that chapter, or you just listened to that conference talk, and there's something you didn't get there, there's something there that you need to understand.
01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:20.079
If you ever get that, stay with it, go back.
01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:24.319
I've listened, there's been podcasts I've listened to six, seven times.
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:28.720
I'll sit down and take notes, and I finally get what I was supposed to get out of it.
01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:34.720
Um, so anyway, that's the other thing I I would want people, and and so true with the temple, so true with the temple.
01:10:35.199 --> 01:10:36.960
Yeah, it's part of that experience.
01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:40.640
Again, going back to experience, it's about repetition, repetition, repetition.
01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:42.319
And yes, um, I love it.
01:10:42.399 --> 01:10:47.680
You know, President Nelson says that when we're feeling like we're we don't have the desire to go to the temple, we should go more often, not less.
01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:51.279
Yes, because it's in that presence that we start to feel that spark.
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:54.079
Cooper, this has been such a fantastic episode.
01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:57.439
I um I'm really grateful for the way that you have framed these things.
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.640
And I love to finish with rapid fire questions, as you know.
01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:03.520
So, first and foremost, favorite temple.
01:11:06.479 --> 01:11:15.199
So my default answer would have to be the Dallas Temple, just because that's been 99% of my my temple uh experience has been there.
01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:17.520
Um, I've attended a few other temples.
01:11:17.600 --> 01:11:20.239
I had an amazing experience in the Solic Temple.
01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:21.279
I've only been once.
01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:25.840
Um, I found that the temple that the spirit does reside in Las Vegas when I went to the temple there.
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:30.960
That was the second temple I ever went to within the first year of being endowed in my 20s.
01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:36.720
Um, I was at a convention and went to the, and you know, everybody's going to the casinos and to part.
01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:38.800
I'm gonna I'm gonna go to the temple.
01:11:39.039 --> 01:11:41.760
And yeah, the spirit resides in Las Vegas.
01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:52.479
Um so uh, but if I had to, you know, the closest temple would be my favorite temple wherever I am, right?
01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:56.000
I mean, that's that's kind of a great quirky, weird answer.
01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:59.680
Yeah, it's different that would really wherever it's closest to you.
01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:03.439
Yes, because the house of the Lord is the house of the Lord, right?
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:05.199
Um, he's there.
01:12:05.439 --> 01:12:11.920
And and and as President Nelson said, if we're honestly seeking, we'll find Christ and He'll be there.
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:19.600
And it doesn't really matter if we're in in Japan or uh Botswana or wherever the closest temple is where I want to go.
01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:20.720
That's a great answer.
01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:22.159
And a good segue to my next question.
01:12:22.319 --> 01:12:26.079
Where's somewhere in the world that you've been that you've loved, or somewhere that you want to go?
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:29.279
What a timely question.
01:12:29.439 --> 01:12:31.520
So I have really never been anywhere.
01:12:32.319 --> 01:12:33.760
I just haven't traveled much.
01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:39.279
I've been to, you know, to Mexico, uh, you know, some a couple of tropical locations.
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:46.239
But um, and my and the reason why it's timely is I have a daughter and a and my wife are in Europe touring Italy right now.
01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:47.760
They're on their way to Rome.
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:53.279
Um, my daughter was at a uh she's a BYU student and she was at a a study abroad program this summer.
01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:57.760
And so my wife went to join her when she was done to to go have some fun.
01:12:57.920 --> 01:12:59.199
Um, and that's great.
01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:00.159
And I love that.
01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:03.439
For me, it would be the holy land, you know.
01:13:03.520 --> 01:13:13.039
I I would love to go be where he was.
01:13:15.520 --> 01:13:16.239
I love that.
01:13:16.399 --> 01:13:16.960
For sure.
01:13:17.119 --> 01:13:18.159
Well, great answer.
01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:19.600
I wouldn't want to go now.
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:21.520
Maybe maybe wait a little bit longer.
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:24.000
Things calm down, but I don't know if it's gonna get better.
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:25.039
Yeah, I don't know either.
01:13:25.279 --> 01:13:26.239
I don't know if it's gonna get better.
01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:28.479
We'll see as good a time as any.
01:13:28.640 --> 01:13:29.760
Um, last question.
01:13:29.920 --> 01:13:31.119
And you know this is coming.
01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:34.560
Your kids, this is one part temple, one part family history.
01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:36.000
They're two sides of the same coin.
01:13:36.239 --> 01:13:41.119
So the beauty of this recording is that your descendants will see this, they'll they'll see and capture you in this moment.
01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:42.319
What would you say to them?
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:46.319
What would you say to them about the things that we talked today about grace and and the atonement?
01:13:49.520 --> 01:14:10.800
Well, I don't know if I could put it in a way that I haven't already, but um the one thing I do know is that um just remember that the Lord He's he's not looking for us to be perfect in any way.
01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:19.359
He's not looking for us, he's not, he's not really ultimately, he's really not even looking for uh our obedience.
01:14:19.680 --> 01:14:22.399
He's looking for us to choose obedience, right?
01:14:22.640 --> 01:14:25.520
It's it's really the choice to choose him.
01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:51.039
Um and that that takes um it can be difficult, uh it can uh look differently for different people, um but uh what he really, really wants is uh time with you, um, which is the foundation of any relationship, right?
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:55.920
Uh whether it's a marriage, a friendship, it's time together.
01:14:56.239 --> 01:15:08.880
And um and if you can commit some time with him, he can uh transform you into something that you cannot imagine.
01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:13.199
And and that's the beauty of the of his first recorded miracle, right?
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:14.640
Turning the water into wine.
01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:22.720
It wasn't about water, it wasn't about wine, and it wasn't about it, you know, he turned the nastiest, dirtiest water into the best wine.
01:15:22.800 --> 01:15:27.600
And if he can do that with wine and water, what can he do with you?
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:31.680
And that's really what he wants, is is is time with you.
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:36.079
Cooper, thank you so much for being on Tempo Bound.
01:15:37.279 --> 01:15:38.239
Oh, thank you.
01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:39.520
Thank you for all you do.
01:15:40.479 --> 01:15:45.760
Your podcast has become uh a go-to for me, and and it's been wonderful.
01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:56.399
And I appreciate your sacrifice because you know this is all you and and and taking time, and and I've gotten to know you a little bit from listening to your podcast.
01:15:56.479 --> 01:16:02.960
And I know you're pretty scheduled and pretty busy, and and this is just like everybody else, but I appreciate it.
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:05.279
This is a true sacrifice, so it means a lot to me.
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:06.560
It is it's the biggest gift.
01:16:06.640 --> 01:16:07.600
It's like everything else we do.
01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:10.239
And I can't thank you enough for being on the shoe show, Cooper.
01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:14.960
And and for everyone who's tuning in, thank you so much for this wonderful episode.
01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:28.960
I hope you feel like I do in terms of greater clarity around this thing called grace and understanding the relationship and the love and all of the just abounding joy that our Helling Father has for you.
01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:39.359
So as you go throughout your your day and as you take this and put this to the side and go back to your life, I hope you'll remember more than anything else that our Helling Father will never give up on you.
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:50.399
So better what you're going through, what trials you're facing, what challenges you might be tackling, no matter what confusions you have, there is purpose and there is a wonderful love that will be with you forever.
01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:51.600
Until next time.
01:16:52.079 --> 01:16:58.239
Temple Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe.
01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:04.000
Produced by Heather Humphreys, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizon and Kimberly Simbafon.
01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:06.159
Wardrobe by Anne Collar.
01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:13.840
These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
01:17:14.079 --> 01:17:18.720
Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to the Savior.
01:17:19.039 --> 01:17:20.319
Until next time.