Episode 277: Intentionally Bringing Joy Into Our Classrooms with Dr. Deonna Smith

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Hey there, teachers, I am so excited to share this episode with you today.
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If you didn't know, this winter we hosted our batch planning live event and one of our incredible guest speakers was Dr Deanna Smith, and she was so incredible that we just knew we had to get her on the podcast to share with you guys ASAP.
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So, thankfully, she agreed to sit back down with us and she actually recorded today's episode with Megan, who is our co-host on the podcast, and she's going to be talking all about bringing joy into your classroom experience, and I've had a chance to listen into this and, holy cow, this conversation is seriously something special.
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I cannot wait for you to tune in.
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Hi there, Caitlin, here.
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Our mission at EB academics is simple Help middle school ELA teachers take back their time outside of the classroom by providing them with engaging lessons, planning frameworks and genuine support, so that you can become the best version of yourself both inside and outside of the classroom.
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So if you think you might be ready to try something new, because you know you simply cannot continue the way that you have been that I'd invite you to take a moment to check out the EB Teachers Club, the EB Writing Program or the EB Grammar Program by visiting the links in the description of the podcast.
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We hope to continue to support you within one of our programs in the future and in the meantime, we look forward to serving you right here on the podcast each week.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast.
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It's Megan here with you today and I'm pumped because we have a very special guest to the podcast.
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Joining me is Dr Deanna Smith.
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Deanna, how are you Welcome?
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Hi, megan, I'm doing wonderful.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm so excited to be tapping back in with this community.
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We're super, super excited For our listeners that don't know.
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Deanna was actually one of our.
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Well, she was our VIP workshop speaker for this past BAPS planning live event.
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That happened in January and our teachers just raved, just raved about Deanna and your topic about bringing joy to the classroom.
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It was just so timely, so relevant, and so even during that presentation, I think Caitlin was like we have to have her on the podcast.
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So this worked out and I'm so glad.
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So thanks for being here with us.
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Yes, thank you.
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Thank you so much for arranging it.
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I love the opportunity to just talk to more audiences and spread the word about joy, and I know you guys have such an amazing social media presence and audience and great resources, so for me it was kind of like a no-brainer to figure out ways for us to work together.
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So I've actually been an admirer of your work.
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I used to use some of the resources before when I was in a classroom teaching so I was like, oh, this is the full circle moment.
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Yes, and we love those.
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Yeah, and I think you're so right.
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Like your message and what we try to do at EB, they just seem so aligned and it's like the stars lined up for us.
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And here we are.
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Fantastic.
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Well, for any of our listeners who don't know you, I would love if you could just give us some background what you do, what you've done, all that good stuff.
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Yeah for sure.
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So my name is Dr Deanna Smith and I am a former teacher, current teacher coach, and I started off teaching fifth grade in Oakland, california, and over my career I've had the just huge, amazing opportunity to teach a lot of different subjects.
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So I worked with Kindergarten, I did K-8 intervention as an interventionist and then also worked in middle school.
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So I've had a lot of experiences in a lot of different places and I absolutely love classroom teaching.
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But I also wanted to support more of the teachers that were around me that I felt like had just were not getting what they needed from their teacher credential programs, and so I transitioned into school leadership, and what I love the most about school leadership was working with the teachers.
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I didn't love the, the fire drills and the budgeting and all of that.
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So I was like, how can I still be, you know, in the classroom community and work with teachers?
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So that's when I transitioned to being a teacher coach and got my doctorate in education along the way, and my work really focuses on building joyful and inclusive classrooms.
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I mean, I just have seen so many amazing teachers out there who are creating spaces of joy and inclusion where kids feel good and the teachers feel good, and I feel like it's really my calling to help amplify that work and spread those resources as widely as I can.
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So oh, I love that.
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I think on a previous podcast that Caitlin and Jessica and I recorded together, I mentioned that I just like there is a movement happening in education right now and I think voices like yours are making that happen and it's so important and it's such good work.
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So, thank you, thank you for doing what you do, because it's amazing, thank you, thank you for having me.
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Yeah, I'm going to shamelessly plug your book, actually, because I think all of our listeners want to hear about it.
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Yes, so you wrote rooted in joy.
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Can you tell us a little bit about your book?
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Yeah, it was a passion project.
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I like to say it's a love letter to all of my colleagues and my former students.
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It was heavily informed by my experience just being there in the day-to-day of teaching and feeling like what did I really need in those years?
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What type of advice and support did I need?
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I wanted to build relationships, but I didn't necessarily always know what that looked like.
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I had a dream of having this joyful and inclusive, equitable classroom, but I just didn't really think that I had the tools.
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This book is really trying to address that gap.
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It's for every teacher who wants to reclaim that joy and that love for teaching, but who wants to do it in a way that's equitable, who deeply believes that all of our kids deserve to have the ability to thrive, not just survive, in their classrooms.
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I tried to create something of a toolkit for that.
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Throughout the book there is research, of course, because I did do educational research and I do believe in staying up to date with best practices.
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There's a lot of scholarly work in there, also a lot of my own personal stories, stories about my students that hopefully y'all will get to know and love as much as I do.
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It's meant to just be a companion for folks along that way.
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Luckily enough, I had this idea and a publisher was like cool, let's do it.
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We turned it into a book that is available, which is still crazy to me.
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It's available on Target, amazon, barnes, noble.
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It's such a pinch me moment to see people reading it and enjoying it.
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It is a tool that I hope is going to inspire and support teachers out there.
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I love that Professional development.
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That sounds like teachers could really get something out of Right.
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I have been in so many meetings that could have been an email.
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It's like, yeah, tell them deaf things or things from people that are so removed from the classroom that it doesn't feel tangible.
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This was really focusing on the teacher perspective.
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I pride myself in always staying tapped into, not only who I am as a teacher, but also who I am as a student.
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That's really powerful too.
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When we remember what it was like to be the student in the classroom, we're able to just unlock a whole different level of understanding.
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Hopefully, when folks read it, that's what they'll feel yeah, oh goodness, absolutely yeah.
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It sounds like maybe that's your story, is what led you into doing this work.
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You always dreamed about, you said, the joyful, equitable classroom.
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Tell me a little bit more about what led you here.
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Yeah, I talk about this in the book I didn't have.
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I had really good teachers, like veteran trained Montessori teachers.
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I had good teachers, but I also was really grappling with an education system that just was not meant for me to thrive.
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As a neurodivergent student, I had two undiagnosed learning differences, just as a young black woman in an all white school.
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I was the only kid of color.
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I had really well-meaning teachers, but they just didn't really have the tools to support me.
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Then, as I got more into teaching and was learning more about different teachers across the country, there was just this huge lack of joy, Just this loss, this listless, lost feeling that I saw so many people experiencing.
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Then I saw our students that were really struggling because of that.
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I talk about this in the book.
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But there's one student in particular that I knew as a kindergartner and she was just effervescent, so bubbly, so joyful.
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She was that kid that definitely always likes to socialize.
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She was right in front of myself because I was definitely the kid I'm sure I would have won, most likely to, I don't know, be on a talk show or something Sales person or you got to talk show, exactly.
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Exactly, I was there and she was too.
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I just loved her.
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I ended up connecting with her later as a middle schooler.
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By that time her experience of the school system was so negative that all of that joy, all of that positivity had just basically been sucked out.
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I feel like, as someone who worked with kindergartners and middle schoolers, I just saw what happens to these joyful because kinders, they love their teachers, they want to be at school, they're curious, they like to learn.
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They're not what we experienced later.
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I was like what would it look like to really look at what it is that is sucking the joy out of our students and, through extension, out of our teachers, and really be on the front lines of pushing back against that in a way that's really grounded in students and really grounded in teachers and not coming from a top-down perspective, but really being in the work with them and advocating for them.
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It's a lot of it is my own personal story, my own personal experiences with my students and then hearing that affirmed and echoed as I'm working with teachers and realizing like someone has got to start pushing this conversation and you know about as well as we are.
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We're going to do it, we're going to jump in.
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I'm good for you for doing it.
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I love it.
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I think it's just so cool that your background has taken you through this age range of students and you've noticed this, and so I kind of wonder if you have an opinion about why do you think there's such a lack of joy in education, like, why do you think our students?
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Has it always been that way or is it something that's new?
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I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, I think it's a couple of things like concurrently happening.
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So I think our education system has just become more and more outcome-oriented and not process-oriented.
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So much more focus on standardized testing, so much focus on regimenting everyone to a very narrow window of, like, what it means to be a student, and that has just gotten smaller and smaller and smaller because we're just trying to, like, copy and paste, do a checklist, crank them out.
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We're not really thinking about each individual child and whereas I think before teachers were doing that work like behind the door, like they closed the door and they were doing that work and finding ways to subvert that, and there were some amazing teachers that were kind of pushing back on that.
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I think that now we're just at the point where the capacity to do that is limited.
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So I think that a lot of teachers who come into the field and they're ready, they're energetic, they want to be the change and they have all these ideas and I mean it's like you pull the drain and the bathtub and all the water just runs out, and so I think the demands have changed.
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I think we've become very process oriented and just like not really thinking about our students as they are, as whole people, and so that's made it really hostile to this kind of work.
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I mean, when I work with school leaders and districts, I say I want to look at your teacher competencies and like your scoring rubrics, because I guarantee you there's nothing on there about joy.
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And how are we going to tell people that we want them to have joyful classrooms if, when we come in and evaluate them, all we're looking for is if the standard is on the board?
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like they're not going to do it because they're you know and so I work with people that they don't want to get in trouble, they don't want to get fired, they don't want the parents yelling at them, and so they have very real concerns and I think we've just moved away from like that human element, that art of teaching so much, and I think in the pandemic really hurt that, because where our schools were really communal before, with social media, with the pandemic and with everything that kind of pushed us further apart, I don't think we fully got that back.
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I think we're like we got some of it back, but I don't think we really went back to the time where our schools were really these vibrant places.
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And so how do we get that back?
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Plus understanding that a lot of our teachers their first couple of years in teaching were pandemic years.
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Oh yeah.
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They've never even led a normal classroom concept Right.
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And our babies, don't even you know, are like third or fourth graders, don't even have a concept of what that looks like.
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So we have so much unlearning to do and so much undoing to do and it's on our teachers, and I'm a big believer that every teacher can disrupt in their classroom and push back.
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But then you know, just so everybody knows I call out everybody from top to bottom, because I want to see a day where, like, having a joyful and inclusive classroom is a standard and you're getting support to do that, not just like you know, just looking at the data or the objectives on the board, or that your kids are sitting quietly like little, you know, like little robots.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, you know, and I think about education, and it's like to your point, we're trying to fit people and kids into these molds in order to accomplish something, but we're not accomplishing what we're seeking to accomplish, so it's not working Right.
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And we have Right.
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It hasn't been.
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No, it hasn't been.
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And we have teachers leaving the classroom left and right because of the system and it's like it's got to change.
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So let's start it.
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Right, right.
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Sometimes when I yeah, sometimes when I get pushed back, you will be like well, how do you know like this is going to work?
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And I'm like, babe, what you're doing right now is it working?
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It's not working, at least right, at least.
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I'm giving you a different idea.
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Like it's not like what you're doing right now is going so well either Right.
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So I kind of pushed back on that because it really we think back for people who started teaching before the pandemic.
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It wasn't working then either.
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So some of it is new to the pandemic.
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But I try to not get caught up in this learning loss conversation because we were very much not doing super well previously Before.
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Correct Right.
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Exactly.
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Now we just have a place to quote, unquote, blame it on you know, and it's like no, that's not the issue.
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I don't think Exactly.
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Oh, I love it.
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Ok.
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So let's kind of get into the nitty gritty of trying to root ourselves in our classrooms and joy.
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So how would you define what a classroom or a teacher actually looks like that's rooted in joy?
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Right, I think that I like to break it down into four categories, and I always say this in the context of culture, response to teaching and, for folks who aren't familiar, a lot of my work starts and ends still with culture, response to teaching and anti-racist teaching, because I think joy is one of the asset pedagogies and I think they all really lean on each other.
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And I always say, when talking about culture, response to teaching, is a classroom as only as culturally responsive as the teacher teaching it, leading it, and I think that's the same with joy.
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I mean.
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Sometimes I get teachers that they'll be like well, what activities can I do?
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Like, you know, can I throw in a go noodle?
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And sometimes it's like, yeah, throw in the activities, but also like are you joyful?
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Do you enjoy teaching?
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Are you, how are you?
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Are you feeling good?
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Are you coming to school with your mental health and your bucket filled in a way that lets you show up and support that?
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Because once you are a joyful person or you find the joy in the struggle, in the like back and forth with the students, in those tough moments like in the I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it over and over again that you'll get from students Like you got to find the joy in that first, because I could give you 1,000 little activities and cutesy things to do, but if your heart isn't in it, it's not going to translate.
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So this work always begins and ends with the teacher and that really looks like you know.
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I know that we're all like self-cared out to death, but you know thinking of what it means to be whole and healthy as a person and whether that means you know you need a personal therapist or you know you need to have a strong morning routine or a nighttime routine, just like caring on yourself so that you can be joyful and getting what you need outside of school, because you just can't compartmentalize.
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Like a lot of the people that have the hardest time, they're having a hard time outside of school too.
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I mean there's definitely a correlation.
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So I think really starting with that is critical.
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Absolutely.
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I love that Very good.
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And then.
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So teacher work first, and then what is a classroom that's rooted in joy?
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What if I walked in?
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Let's say I'm the principal?
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What would I be seeing?
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Yeah, I really focus on community over control and what that means is that, like, everything is done with the aim of creating a healthy and vibrant community where people feel good and they have fun together.
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So some things that I think about is it's probably not going to be as quiet as you're thinking.
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Yeah, yeah, it's probably not going to be quiet.
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It's going to look like a lot of student discourse, not just back and forth from the teacher, not just that Q&A of like you know, sally, what is this one?
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Okay, billy, your turn right, but really kids dialoguing and discorsing with each other.
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It's probably going to look like table groups or pods, not rows.
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It's probably going to look like you know, I love centers and other ways of like breaking up the classroom into chunks.
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It's going to look like engaging, a lot of project-based learning.
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It's going to look colorful, like the walls are going to be colorful.
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It's going to look like kids taking, you know, ownership of that community, and it's so much easier to build a healthy classroom community when kids are invested in it.
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So I like, especially with my younger grade teachers.
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They use things like peace path or peer moderation to make sure that like kids are not like the teacher isn't the only person responsible for keeping the community healthy.
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Each individual student has a vested interest in keeping the community healthy.
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So it's going to look like kids, you know, having those dialogues with each other.
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It's going to look like lots of visual reminders about emotional regulation, because I know that is a huge challenge.
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So it's going to look like you know the the four breasts worksheet on the wall and like an image of you know somebody in a field about mindfulness, like it's going to look like a lot of just reinforcement to to monitor yourself.
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It's going to look like a lot of collaboration and it's going to look like folks that are truly invested, and I mean every student, because sometimes what happens and this is what I'm experiencing with some of the teachers that I'm coaching right now they have a few students that are not part of the community and they're like but everything else is good, and it's like if you have a few students that aren't part of the community, those couple of students, can you know they're, they're isolated and they can be the ones that cause the most problems in the community.
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They're the ones that are turning up the most because they're like I'm not part of this, like I'm great, like I'm on my own island here.
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Exactly, I'm on an island so I'm just going to go kamikaze.
00:20:03.422 --> 00:20:11.929
So I really, you know, I really talk about like literally every student is included and it's all of us are none, and so that is.
00:20:11.929 --> 00:20:17.972
And you know I understand that that sounds aspirational, for a lot of teachers are like whoa, deanna, where do I even start?
00:20:17.972 --> 00:20:20.199
And so that's a North Star and a goal.
00:20:20.199 --> 00:20:26.221
But once you break it down and you recognize, like how can I start this in just one subject?
00:20:26.622 --> 00:20:26.843
how can?
00:20:26.863 --> 00:20:29.653
I start this just one day a week and you start to piece it.
00:20:29.653 --> 00:20:36.663
You will build your capacity and and because it's natural for kids to be in community with each other, they're going to go along with it.
00:20:36.663 --> 00:20:43.576
It's going to be a lot easier than trying to force them into like something with compliance, because it feels good like who doesn't want to be in that community, right?
00:20:43.576 --> 00:20:45.241
So it is very doable.
00:20:45.865 --> 00:20:49.878
Well, and that's a great point, because they're social beings, you know right, and?
00:20:49.878 --> 00:20:56.277
And so much of what we do in education takes them away from that, and I'm like, as an adult, we need them to socialize.
00:20:56.277 --> 00:20:57.940
Let's prep them for that.
00:20:58.781 --> 00:21:08.874
Right, I mean, if I so teachers, if they sit in a PD for, let's say, like more than 20, 30 minutes of just listening, they're ready to riot.
00:21:10.037 --> 00:21:18.519
I'm having five conversations over here, you know, right, right but I think a lot of us are not aware that of how much we talk of how little.
00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.317
So there's all kinds of little reflective exercises that I invite people to do.
00:21:22.317 --> 00:21:38.315
One is follow a student, like just if you're able to get a sub, especially for your leader follow a student for a day, see how often they're talking to others, how, how many people call them by their name, how often, how many times they look like they feel welcomed and embraced and they feel good like.
00:21:38.315 --> 00:21:54.058
Follow a student for a day, especially middle school, and then count the minutes like actually add up, how many minutes am I talking, how many minutes are they talking back to me and how many minutes are they talking to each other, and I guarantee you you'll see something that that will you know.
00:21:54.058 --> 00:21:56.869
Give you pause to think about how can I improve that?
00:21:56.869 --> 00:21:58.314
Because we don't recognize.
00:21:58.374 --> 00:22:04.551
But we, we really have a lot of power just in our own classrooms to create this environment.
00:22:04.551 --> 00:22:14.840
And the best part is, when you start doing this, the academics come naturally like so sometimes people like well, if I have this joyful community, then what about the test scores?
00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:22.076
I'm like the test scores are going to go a lot with it because they're going to feel good about being at school, even if it's less time managing, more time learning.
00:22:22.076 --> 00:22:27.534
So it's, it's really, really I think it's really easy.
00:22:27.534 --> 00:22:29.699
It's not easy but it's very accessible.
00:22:29.699 --> 00:22:32.332
If you, if you want to do it, it is very doable.
00:22:32.332 --> 00:22:48.760
And I've seen teachers, you know, with difficult classes, no experience, all the barriers, whatever, I've seen them of all walks be able to implement some of this stuff yeah, well, when the students want to be there, how much easier it is for them to retain and grasp them.
00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:52.701
I mean, yeah, that's true as an adult, when I don't want to do something, am I doing it?
00:22:52.721 --> 00:23:00.662
well, no, right, right exactly like think about people who like love their jobs versus people who don't exactly yeah, same thing.
00:23:01.009 --> 00:23:10.284
Yeah, it seems simple, but, um, but I, this community building piece is so big because I think we are intentional about it, maybe at the beginning of the year as teachers.
00:23:10.325 --> 00:23:34.015
It's like the getting to know you and the icebreakers, which I hate that for you and the whole idea of it, but but usually teachers are very intentional at the beginning of the year, but what I'm hearing from you is we really have to make the community an intentional part of actually the art of teaching you use that phrase earlier and I like it and then also just the day-to-day like environment of our classroom for like a better time yes, absolutely.
00:23:34.035 --> 00:23:39.993
I mean and and we do this, and then some people don't even get to the full week of of community building.
00:23:39.993 --> 00:23:46.056
They're like, okay, day one and two, and then like the community is built like wrap it up, you know right and so.
00:23:46.135 --> 00:23:51.174
I, you know, I invite people to think about, like, think about you know your relationships right.
00:23:51.174 --> 00:23:55.230
If you, if you have a friend, is is the friendship just there?
00:23:55.230 --> 00:24:05.430
Or do you have to like, text them, hang out every once in a while, call them, do things together, like if you have a partner, is that just like, okay, the partnership is there, or do you go on dates?
00:24:05.430 --> 00:24:06.594
Do you spend time together?
00:24:06.594 --> 00:24:07.518
Do you continue to build?
00:24:07.518 --> 00:24:10.007
So it's the same thing in your classroom.
00:24:10.007 --> 00:24:33.042
It's not a bank, you know that you just kind of like make the deposit and then it's there, and so I like to think about breaking it down daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, and things that you're doing, you know, incrementally, to continue to build the community, and recognizing that it doesn't always, you know, have to be like a beginning of the year icebreaker, but the community will be built, as you know they'll.
00:24:33.170 --> 00:24:49.622
They'll take it over and build it themselves when they're in community with each other when the kids are able to interact, and I think that a lot of teachers would be surprised how infrequently kids actually interact with each other in class, because a lot of it ends up being I do you watch?
00:24:49.622 --> 00:24:54.722
You know, you do on your own, you do with a partner and then that's it.
00:24:54.722 --> 00:24:58.353
That's the whole, you know, that's the whole pedagogical approach.
00:24:58.353 --> 00:25:30.913
And so I think when you think about giving them those little opportunities whether it's a closeout, an opening meeting and a closeout meeting at the end of the week, whether it's like five minutes of transition time between the classes if you're in the middle school context, whether it's, you know, just like giving them an opportunity to do something silly, like who has the meme of the week, or like the tick talk of the week, or, you know, just banking some time to to be silly together or watch a movie trailer or something's coming out I mean there the options are endless.
00:25:30.993 --> 00:25:39.045
But it is like neuroscience tells us that when we laugh together, our brain actually rewires us to feel close to that person.
00:25:39.045 --> 00:25:42.395
So if you think about somebody that you really like, you probably laugh with them.
00:25:42.395 --> 00:25:54.907
You know you guys probably have a good time, right, you crack up a little bit, and it's because when you laugh with somebody, your brain is telling you like, oh yeah, like that's my person and so we and that's like a scientific fact, right.
00:25:54.907 --> 00:26:03.141
So think about creating that with your classroom, like laughing with your kids not just them, you know, laughing at you, but laughing with your kids and building those moments.
00:26:03.141 --> 00:26:09.078
It's a great way to build community and build that connection, especially in the middle school context love that.
00:26:09.199 --> 00:26:13.983
Yeah, that's such a cool scientific fact you shared, so laugh more people, that's laugh more.
00:26:14.003 --> 00:26:15.268
Yeah, basically laugh more.
00:26:16.532 --> 00:26:17.174
I love that.
00:26:17.174 --> 00:26:41.338
Um so and you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier but I wonder how you would recommend for teachers having kind of a balance between you know, because and that's this problem with education, as we think about learning being in a structured environment and there does have to be an organization to the classroom and that kind of thing, but how do you kind of balance that with this joy piece, this flexibility, the spontaneous, spontaneity that you're kind of talking about?
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:44.164
Yeah, I think it is.
00:26:44.164 --> 00:26:56.771
So, you know, one thing that I talk about in the book is, just because you have a joyful classroom does not mean you have structure, and we have to, like, let go of this idea that joy always means loosey goosey.
00:26:56.771 --> 00:27:03.153
What joy means is that, like, yeah, it's flexible and within the structure there's space to be a human being.
00:27:03.153 --> 00:27:03.797
Like, there's.
00:27:03.797 --> 00:27:07.727
The structure doesn't exist to you know, just to exist.
00:27:07.727 --> 00:27:30.465
It exists to support the actual people, and so everything that you do should be with the aim of, like you know, helping your students, as they are little little human beings, and so I think that, as long as you are, you know, maintaining the understanding that, like, there needs to be support and structure for them to be in community with each other, because that's one challenge that some folks face.
00:27:30.465 --> 00:27:34.911
Right, they are so worried about joy and they're not sure how to do it.
00:27:34.911 --> 00:27:38.669
So then they feel like, okay, well, we can't have any norms or rules.
00:27:38.669 --> 00:27:48.005
And that's not the case, because I can't be joyful if somebody else is allowed to, you know, make racist comments or is dancing on the table unsafely.
00:27:48.005 --> 00:27:50.842
Like, I'm not joyful in that space, and so you.
00:27:50.961 --> 00:27:52.586
It is definitely.
00:27:52.586 --> 00:27:54.010
It doesn't mean that there's no structure.
00:27:54.010 --> 00:27:55.886
It doesn't mean that there's no community agreements.
00:27:55.886 --> 00:28:01.969
It just means that, like it's a community agreement, it means that those structures exist because they support us.
00:28:01.969 --> 00:28:03.625
It means that we talk about it.
00:28:03.625 --> 00:28:05.083
It means that there's a why.
00:28:05.083 --> 00:28:12.242
You know these middle school kids and driving crazy with asking their why questions, right, and so we have.
00:28:12.242 --> 00:28:13.186
We have reasons.
00:28:13.186 --> 00:28:15.154
We have, you know, flexibility.
00:28:15.154 --> 00:28:22.412
We have opportunities for them to feel engaged and that is so, so important, that autonomy, because think about how we feel as teachers when we don't have autonomy.
00:28:22.861 --> 00:28:24.409
We, you know we're ready to.
00:28:24.409 --> 00:28:27.141
We're ready to strike when we don't have a say over what's being taught.
00:28:27.141 --> 00:28:29.688
Kids have no say over what they're learning Right.
00:28:29.688 --> 00:28:31.271
Yeah they're just there.
00:28:31.271 --> 00:28:33.907
So right, they're just there, and they don't even get paid.
00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:35.502
So um we.
00:28:35.943 --> 00:28:51.605
So we really have to think about bringing in that autonomy, that flexibility, but that doesn't mean that you have to, like, throw away everything you ever learned about running a classroom, because at the end of the day, like we're there to learn and so striking that balance is critical.
00:28:51.605 --> 00:28:55.313
But I think most teachers worry too much about letting go.
00:28:55.313 --> 00:29:08.608
I think, like I've seen very few classrooms that are, you know, too joyful, I've seen a lot of classrooms that are, you know, out of control because there's no community, but I haven't seen a teacher that goes overboard with joy yet.
00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:13.666
So if you're thinking like, oh, am I too joyful, you're probably not like you're gonna stay.
00:29:13.847 --> 00:29:14.509
Stay where you are.
00:29:14.509 --> 00:29:19.151
I love what you said about the structure being in place to support the community.
00:29:19.151 --> 00:29:23.126
Like the structure is there to really allow the community to happen.
00:29:23.126 --> 00:29:24.509
That's cool, Right?
00:29:24.509 --> 00:29:25.692
That's a word for Bob.
00:29:27.021 --> 00:29:29.727
And they're and they're kids, right, they're learning, they're testing boundaries.
00:29:29.727 --> 00:29:39.132
They pretty much exist to test boundaries at this point, and so it is still your responsibility to have those to help them understand and navigate that.
00:29:39.132 --> 00:29:55.185
But I think what we do too much, especially as middle school teachers, is we feel like we have to like run a tight ship, we feel like we have to like lock it down and we have this like image that you know, if things get too out of whack, then we'll lose control, or something like that.
00:29:55.185 --> 00:30:04.365
And I really just invite people to unpack where that deep, deep need to control other beings comes from and why.
00:30:04.365 --> 00:30:11.140
Why not instead think about like building a community together where they are invested in creating that themselves?
00:30:11.744 --> 00:30:19.674
Because they don't want to be in that situation either, but I think in our heads we think that, like they, they want to be in this like violent, dangerous classroom.
00:30:19.674 --> 00:30:20.517
That's not the case.
00:30:20.517 --> 00:30:21.740
They just want to feel included.
00:30:22.442 --> 00:30:45.983
They just want to like you know, they just want to be full people, and so I think, especially as middle school, it's so important that we recognize and like not take ourselves too seriously and, like you know, step back a little bit and say like hey, how can I, how can I build, enjoy and engage students in what that looks like, like ask them, I want to do something fun, but I want us to be safe.
00:30:45.983 --> 00:30:48.125
Y'all got any ideas Like help me out, right?
00:30:48.125 --> 00:30:49.904
So engage them too.
00:30:50.185 --> 00:30:51.528
Yeah Well, and they love that.
00:30:51.528 --> 00:30:54.047
You know, I kind of reflect back when I taught eighth grade English.
00:30:54.047 --> 00:30:58.882
I had one novel unit that I wanted to teach, but I couldn't decide what I wanted to teach and I asked them.
00:30:58.882 --> 00:31:00.788
I was like, here's our options, let's go.
00:31:00.788 --> 00:31:06.551
You know, and he chose Romeo and Juliet of all things, but they were like, so invested in it.
00:31:06.551 --> 00:31:09.040
And I'm like Shakespeare and they like it, you know.
00:31:09.040 --> 00:31:10.125
So I love that.
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:29.146
I love that idea of just like ask them Cause they're there, right, right, and they and it, and even if they, even if they don't, even if they pick what you would have picked anyway, even if they don't all agree, just the experience of feeling like their ideas matter is transformative, absolutely.
00:31:29.247 --> 00:31:30.851
Yeah, yeah, that's so cool.
00:31:30.851 --> 00:31:40.309
So one of the things I thought about, like when you were presenting at BPL, at EB, we're all about engagement, the fun, but also bringing rigorous, you know activities to classrooms.
00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:50.928
But I do know a lot of our teachers have these district mandated curriculums that you know they are expected to teach to fidelity and some of them feel, from what I hear, very dry, very stark.
00:31:50.928 --> 00:31:59.202
Do you have some ideas for how teachers could incorporate the joy element into those types of curricula that they have?
00:32:00.266 --> 00:32:03.809
Yeah, so, and I think I use this analogy in the session as well that we did.
00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:16.744
But I always think about like doctoring up a cake, and so I love to bake, and so I sometimes will get like a Betty Crocker or Duncan Heinz cake mix, but then put my own little spin on it out a little razzle dazzle.
00:32:16.744 --> 00:32:42.320
And so I think that's what I think of when I think of using a curriculum that you have to use, because I've been in that position to where either something is not, it's not relevant, like it's not current, it's not updated, or it's not really grasping my students interests, and so a couple of things I think about is one you know, everything is a text, and like a tweet is a text, a video was a text, everything is a text.
00:32:42.320 --> 00:32:51.617
And so when you have a text that you have to use, you can just put it in conversation with other things, with other ideas, open up opportunities to compare and contrast.
00:32:52.365 --> 00:32:58.835
I've also have had students like look at it through a critical lens and then give me feedback on the text, like, hey, we have to use this.
00:32:58.835 --> 00:33:02.559
I want y'all to tell me like where are all the ways that this fall short?
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:09.132
Right, and then they're like actively engaging in, like okay, well, you know there's no characters of color or this is.
00:33:09.132 --> 00:33:13.396
You know, this is problematic, for whatever reason, right?
00:33:13.916 --> 00:33:16.099
and so that could be fun for students.
00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:29.392
I think another thing that you can do is just breaking up the method, like how it's delivered, sometimes like it's just dry, and so you gotta do a cahoot, do a circle time, do a jigsaw, do you know?
00:33:29.392 --> 00:33:30.012
Have them.
00:33:30.012 --> 00:33:34.676
Rewrites Shakespeare, but it has to be a tick tock language.
00:33:34.676 --> 00:33:37.338
Have them, you know, act it out.
00:33:37.338 --> 00:33:45.169
Just, you can if you have to, if you have to use the material as is, and then I think about, is there a modality that you can engage?
00:33:45.169 --> 00:33:47.111
It's a little bit more fun and interesting.
00:33:47.111 --> 00:34:06.493
And then you know, also like bringing in the students, asking them to vote, asking for their opinions, asking for their perspective, for their perspectives, and then I just try to bring in whatever I can to create analogies or to help them find something that's similar, that is relevant.
00:34:06.554 --> 00:34:23.153
So, especially if you're doing like a novel study Okay, well, this is, you know, the the lovers to friends trope or whatever you know, maybe that anything out like what's a movie was a TV show that you've seen it in, or if you know there is, we're talking about something having to do with grammar.
00:34:23.153 --> 00:34:36.050
Maybe it's looking to find how grant grammar has shifted, or learning about different syntax or ebonics, I mean there's so many ways to to make it interesting and fun and and.
00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:40.614
But I think at the end of the day, like the the biggest pieces you coming into it.
00:34:40.614 --> 00:34:52.108
Because if you come into it and you're like, oh, you know, you know we're doing catching the right and there and we just got to get through it and it's dry, it's the same catch on the ride that we've done Always.
00:34:52.708 --> 00:34:53.570
Right always.
00:34:53.590 --> 00:34:55.572
I think my mom read that in school.
00:34:55.572 --> 00:34:57.454
Yeah, it is what it is.
00:34:57.454 --> 00:35:01.217
You know, if you come in with that, yeah, bring some levity to it.
00:35:01.217 --> 00:35:15.894
But if you, if you are a joyful and creative person, if you are a spontaneous person, if you know your kids and if you are not so focused on outcomes but the process, yeah, they will reveal themselves to you.
00:35:15.894 --> 00:35:33.336
Moments were like funny moments or opportunities will be there and it's just are you courageous enough to stick with them or you're going to let that clock, you know, be on your back and sweat you until the point where you're just skipping over all of these really good juicy opportunities just for the sole purpose of getting it done.
00:35:33.336 --> 00:35:47.757
Yeah, so I think that is something like a mindset, and I know I say this is somebody who's not going to get in trouble for doing it, but I invite you to be a little, you know, to push back a little bit and do that, because it's it's the.
00:35:47.757 --> 00:35:52.621
Anything can be interesting and engaging, but it's just the time limit that we put on ourselves.
00:35:52.864 --> 00:35:55.347
Yeah, that is possible because it's like can I be?
00:35:55.347 --> 00:36:00.235
Interesting in 60 minutes like I think so Right, but you can.
00:36:00.775 --> 00:36:01.056
Right.
00:36:01.436 --> 00:36:01.737
Right.
00:36:01.797 --> 00:36:04.159
Right, so just thinking about it from that perspective.
00:36:05.025 --> 00:36:17.300
And the all of the ideas you just gave, which I encourage everybody to go back because, like, everything you just said was incredible, but, as you were listing them off, those were all ways of also getting kids to use, like those higher order thinking skills.
00:36:17.300 --> 00:36:20.728
So, yes, they're learning, right?
00:36:20.728 --> 00:36:31.407
Yes, and so if I, if I had somebody pushed me back at me because I was using those skills, I would kind of just fight back that these are good teaching practices, right, right.
00:36:31.668 --> 00:36:40.764
And because sometimes, I do think right now in education, we get a little caught up in like the newest curricula or the newest strategy and we forget about what good teaching looks like.
00:36:40.764 --> 00:36:48.318
And so I, yeah, I encourage our listeners to listen to what you just said and do it because those that's good teaching.
00:36:49.065 --> 00:36:54.391
Well, and what I always encourage people to think about is a meme is an analogy, right?
00:36:54.391 --> 00:36:56.514
Yes, there's that, it's in.
00:36:56.514 --> 00:37:04.264
These are, if you go with blooms, right, the higher level things, that the making connections, the analogizing, all of that is very much.
00:37:04.264 --> 00:37:07.108
You can see that on TikTok, like that's where kids are right.
00:37:07.588 --> 00:37:23.492
And so a lot of times I'll like tell them, like find a TikToker that talks about this, or like find a meme, or like create a meme, because all of the all of those things are using the text that they are most comfortable with and and you know someone is listening, thinking, you know we need them to write essays.
00:37:23.652 --> 00:37:31.764
Yes, but sometimes you have to recognize where your entry point is and your entry point is a TikTok video essay and then it turns into something else.
00:37:31.764 --> 00:37:40.775
I think that we have to, we have to be okay with that and understand that, like that doesn't mean that they're only learning through social media.
00:37:40.775 --> 00:37:44.000
Social media as a mechanism is a is a way of getting to that text.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:56.764
So I encourage folks to like, think about it like that and and engage with it with an open mind, because and especially just the kids even just seeing you having an open mind about those things go so far to them.
00:37:58.987 --> 00:38:01.409
Oh my gosh yes because they think this is their culture.
00:38:01.409 --> 00:38:05.474
Okay, they're like this is me, I like this is so important to me.
00:38:05.474 --> 00:38:08.858
They really think that that is, you know, the end, all and be all.
00:38:08.858 --> 00:38:11.340
So to hear about on that, I think, is really powerful.
00:38:11.844 --> 00:38:14.929
Yeah, fantastic, another piece of that community building which is so great.
00:38:14.929 --> 00:38:16.231
Yeah, cool, good stuff.
00:38:16.231 --> 00:38:20.179
Well, as we're kind of wrapping up, I would love it if you could just leave to be hard.
00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:25.775
Leave teachers with one thing that they could do today to bring back the joy in their classroom.
00:38:25.775 --> 00:38:26.436
What would you suggest?
00:38:26.436 --> 00:38:27.177
That one be thing be?
00:38:28.340 --> 00:38:47.880
Yeah, I would say one thing that you can do today to bring back the joy in the classroom is to, you know I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sound like a district person, but to start with the data right, just to look and see where you're at, because I think you know, we don't know what our goal is and what our North star is until you know where you're at.
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.699
Like, just stop and think, like, when is the last time you felt joyful in your classroom?
00:38:51.699 --> 00:38:54.572
Yeah, ask the students, when did they feel joy?
00:38:54.572 --> 00:38:56.420
Ask the students, do they feel like they belong?
00:38:57.503 --> 00:39:00.190
Look at, just take an inventory of your regular day.
00:39:00.190 --> 00:39:02.525
How much time do the students do like?
00:39:02.525 --> 00:39:04.510
I always say it's soccer, not tennis.
00:39:04.510 --> 00:39:08.769
Are they playing soccer, bouncing the ball off of each other, or is it just tennis, back and forth?
00:39:08.769 --> 00:39:13.800
Look at how many times your kids are talking about something non-academic, right?
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:28.010
So just thinking about, like, where you're at and actually knowing the numbers is so Illuminating because, again, we think that we're doing probably more than we are, especially if you're multiple subject or if you're a singular subject, because then all the classes start to mix together.
00:39:28.010 --> 00:39:28.490
Oh yeah.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.132
I did this before period but like I totally forgot about six period or like this is over here.
00:39:33.132 --> 00:39:38.369
So take inventory is the first step, and then just start.
00:39:38.369 --> 00:40:10.452
Start with one day of the week, like maybe Thursday is your day where you're gonna focus on in Including an activity that's a little, you know, a little bit of a razzle, dazzle activity, something to judge it up and and start slow that way and then, if you're, if you're somebody that feels like the activities are really solid but you're struggling with relationships, I was recommend the two by ten, which is having a two minute conversation that's not academic with the student for ten days in a row and just watching kind of that relationship bill.
00:40:10.452 --> 00:40:18.891
Just take two minutes out of your day to talk about something positive, non-academic, and just watch how that can really transform your relationship.
00:40:18.891 --> 00:40:22.393
So those were two kind of three options I wanted to give.
00:40:23.641 --> 00:40:25.969
Yeah oh, I love, I love those you're.
00:40:25.969 --> 00:40:28.599
I mean, there's just so many like nuggets of gold in this episode.
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:30.166
This is fantastic, deanna, you're.
00:40:30.166 --> 00:40:33.157
You're a gem, so thank you so much for being here.
00:40:33.157 --> 00:40:33.820
I love this.
00:40:33.820 --> 00:40:38.692
Yes, I would love for you to just share with our listeners where they can find you, all of the things.
00:40:39.262 --> 00:40:41.900
Yeah, yeah so definitely come hang out on Instagram.
00:40:41.900 --> 00:41:00.420
I post, like try to post daily strategies, tips, just Ideas, and I really wanted to create it's almost like a virtual PLC, without, like all of the you know nonsense that goes on with PLC, but kind of like a fun space for us to continue to share ideas, and so follow me there.
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:20.092
I do do this work with schools and leaders, which is it's always exciting when I'm able to work with the whole staff or like even with the whole district, and so I have like several workshops and series that I do in person and virtually, so that's something that you think your school could benefit from or you would like to do personally, because I do offer individual coaching as well.
00:41:20.092 --> 00:41:21.603
Please reach out to me.
00:41:22.224 --> 00:41:24.530
Like I said, everything is there on my Instagram.
00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:31.112
It's just my name at, deanna Smith, and then, of course, the great, a great entry point is just picking up a copy of rooted in joy.
00:41:31.112 --> 00:41:56.347
Like I said, it's Amazon target, it's at mahogany books if you'd like to support a black owned business, and they ship across the US, and so, yeah, that would be a great, a great place to start, and when you, if you join me over on Instagram, send me a DM, so I I know you're part of the community and I love to you know, support and help because it really, like this stuff is my passion, it brings me joy, so I just love talking about.
00:41:56.347 --> 00:41:59.434
I could talk about it all day, so come along and enjoy the conversation.
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:01.063
Well, I love that.
00:42:01.063 --> 00:42:05.659
You love talking about it, because this has just been so valuable for teachers and what you're doing is amazing.
00:42:05.659 --> 00:42:07.188
Deanna, thank you for doing the work you do.
00:42:07.771 --> 00:42:09.440
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:10.001
It was.
00:42:10.001 --> 00:42:18.365
It was great, and I really appreciate when platforms like yours recognize the value and give me an opportunity to chat with your people, so I'm excited absolutely anytime.
00:42:18.385 --> 00:42:19.829
We'll have to have you back at some time too.
00:42:20.391 --> 00:42:21.132
Yes, of course.
00:42:22.521 --> 00:42:27.956
Well, thanks everybody for listening and please join us again next week on the teaching middle school ELA podcast.
00:42:27.956 --> 00:42:28.780
Bye for now, everybody.
00:42:29.527 --> 00:42:30.072
Thanks y'all.