TUnE Bio

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JOHN: Students planning to major in STEM
fields, especially students from groups
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historically underrepresented in these
fields, are often deterred by their
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experiences in introductory courses.
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In this episode, we explore an NSF-funded
initiative designed to enhance student
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success in introductory Biology classes.
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[MUSIC]
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Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
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of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
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REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist...
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JOHN: ...and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer...
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REBECCA: ...and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
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to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
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[MUSIC]
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JOHN: Our guest today
is Sarah Rose Cavanagh.
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Sarah is a psychologist and the
author of four books related
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to teaching and learning.
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She is the senior associate director
for teaching and learning and
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associate professor of practice at
Simmons University and also is a
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regular contributor to The Chronicle
and many other publications.
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Sarah often serves as a keynote speaker
and we were very fortunate to have her
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join us for a keynote address at a recent
Academic Affairs Retreat on our campus.
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We’re also looking forward to her
upcoming keynote address at the
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SUNY Conference on Instruction and
Technology later this year in May.
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Welcome back, Sarah.
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SARAH: Thanks for having me.
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REBECCA: Today's teas are:... Sarah,
are you drinking tea with us today?
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SARAH: Ah… I never am.
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I actually have a confession.
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I'm actually drinking
a Celsius energy drink.
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[LAUGHTER] I've graduated from
even coffee, but I only do this.
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I'm like, I don't know if you've seen
this, but Zoran Mamdani, he has a
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Red Bull once a week, and so, like
Mamdani, I have a Celsius once a week.
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Gives me a real boost.
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REBECCA: Right now is the time.
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We're catching you at
this moment this week?
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SARAH: Well, yes, and we also ran
out of coffee filters, so… [LAUGHTER]
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REBECCA: That'll do it.
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How about you, John?
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JOHN: I am drinking an
Irish Breakfast tea today.
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REBECCA: Oh, seems to be
like a new favorite, John.
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JOHN: Actually, it's because
we're snowed in and most of my
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other teas are up at the office.
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REBECCA: I have an
English afternoon today.
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SARAH: What time of day is it?
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This seems to be a conflict.
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One of you is doing breakfast?
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One of you is afternoon.
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JOHN: It is afternoon, isn't it?
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REBECCA: yeah, I don’t know.
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Yesterday we recorded at 5pm and we
both had breakfast teas, so… [LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: We did.
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REBECCA: It might just be an
indicator of how much caffeine
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we needed at a given time.
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[LAUGHTER]
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SARAH: Gotcha.
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JOHN: We've invited you here today
to discuss the TUnE-Bio project,
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an NSF-funded academic initiative,
for which you are a principal
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investigator and network leader.
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Can you give our listeners
an overview of this project?
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SARAH: Sure.
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So the focus of the
project's right in our title.
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So it's Transforming Learning and
Equity in Undergraduate Biology
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Education by Cultivating an
Ecosystem of Feedback, which is a
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big mouthful, so we call it TUnE-Bio.
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So we're tuning biology education.
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And the focus of the project is really
on tackling the problem of high attrition
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and weed out in undergraduate biology
education, and by extension, STEM
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fields in general, the fact that so many
students come to the study of biology
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and the study of STEM fields in general
and want to be doctors and surgeons
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and scientists, and then they encounter
difficulties in their introductory
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courses and leave for other majors.
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There's something that is known as the
STEM grading penalty, which is when
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students get really low course grades
in STEM courses, but then they get
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high grades in their other courses,
then that in particular seems to
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kind of lure them out of the field.
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And we want to change that, in general,
because we need more scientists and we
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need more nurses and surgeons, but we
also want to change that, because there's
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also a lot of inequities in terms of who
is weeded out, and disproportionately
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women, students of various races and
ethnicities, first-generation status.
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All these things tend to increase
the chances that you will leave
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STEM fields, and we want a really
educated, diverse STEM workforce, and
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so we're really trying to do something
about that by improving pedagogy.
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REBECCA: Sounds like a
good initiative… [LAUGHTER]
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SARAH: We think so.
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REBECCA: …right up our
alley around here, right?
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[LAUGHTER]
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At the beginning of the project, you
first gathered information on the
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current landscape of biology education
using surveys and focus groups.
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Can you tell us a little bit about
the process of data collection?
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SARAH: Yeah, sure.
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So we started this grant with
what's called an incubator.
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So NSF has two versions of this particular
mechanism, and the incubator is meant
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to, just like it sounds, to give you a
little bit of money to start building
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a network, start showing the NSF that
you can do what you are promising to do.
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And then we got a full version
of the grant a few years later.
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So this really goes all the way back to,
I think, 2020, and we were unsuccessful
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a few times before we were successful.
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[LAUGHTER] So it actually goes back to
more like 2018, I think, but we got the
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incubator grant, and one of the things
reviewers said to us is, all right,
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you're saying you want to innovate in
pedagogy in biology, but before you
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can innovate, don't you need to know
the current state of play, like, what
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are people doing in their classrooms
currently, before you start asking
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them to do something different, like,
maybe they're already innovating.
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So we took that charge, and in the
incubator year or two, we did a really
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large survey of people who were teaching
introductory biology, all sorts of
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different institutions all over the
country, about 300 of them, and then
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did qualitative interviews of 27, I
think, of them… took a deeper dive.
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And we're really asking people
about their practices and
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philosophies in teaching intro bio.
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What were they doing in terms
of assessment, in terms of
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feedback, in terms of grading?
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We asked about what they perceived
as barriers to innovation.
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In the early phases, we're a little
more focused on alternative grading.
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And so we asked a lot of questions
about: had they heard of it?
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had they tried it?
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Questions about that.
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And so that was our attempt to figure
out the landscape before we started
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innovating with the full proposal.
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JOHN: And what did the data collection
tell you about the landscape?
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SARAH: Well, first, I have
to say that I do think we got
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a bit of an unusual sample.
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It’s always the case in research,
because we tried to keep
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the survey under 15 minutes.
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But still, who has 15 minutes to do
something completely optional, and
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then the people who spoke with us in
the qualitative interview study, that
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was a significant investment of time.
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And so I do think we got a sample
of people who were really interested
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in pedagogy already, but, that said,
we saw a lot of innovation already.
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So the old school model of two exams
and a final in intro courses, we
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really didn't see a lot of that.
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People were using a lot of
quizzes, a lot of clickers.
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They were really thinking deeply,
especially in the interviews.
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They had thought deeply about equity.
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A lot of the folks we talked
to, they really felt the pull of
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doing more like differentiated
instruction and really changing
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their pedagogy, student by student.
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And had a lot of frustrations
with not being able to find the
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time to really do that better.
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And we also asked about
barriers to innovation.
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And shockingly, the top three barriers
were time, time, and time, I think
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the top was no time to implement.
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The second was the perception that some
of these innovations would take more time.
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And then the third was no time to
even like, figure it out, do the
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reading, restructure the course
ahead of time, do those things.
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So we saw a lot of innovation, but
a lot of desire for more, I think.
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REBECCA: So that kind of sets the ground
for the pedagogical side of the landscape.
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Can you go into a little bit more detail
about attrition rates and the equity gaps
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that the project is meant to overcome?
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SARAH: Yeah, sure.
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So a pretty significant number of
students leave early STEM education
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for other majors, and it does seem like
investigations that have probed the why of
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that and the motivation has really found
it tying to these early low grades in
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these introductory courses, and I think,
in particular, students who are drawn to
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health sciences, just the way everything
set up in secondary education, tend to
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be students who are quite used to getting
high grades, [LAUGHTER] and so having this
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experience of just getting As and As and
As and then you hit college, and you take
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Intro bio, and then all of a sudden you
have a C for the first time in your life.
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And that being very alarming.
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There's also, and certainly we heard
this in the survey and the interviews,
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in terms of the equity, something
that people really thought a lot about
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and felt very deeply about, was the
fact that, especially courses that
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are introductory courses, like intro
bio, students would be coming to
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them with very different backgrounds.
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Some students had taken AP Bio with
a tutor and all these extra meetings
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and already knew half the material
that they were going to be taught.
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And other students from lower-resourced
high schools did not have that experience,
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and faculty really struggled with that.
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Starting out from the gate, these students
were on paths to differential outcomes,
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and then that would shape whether they
stayed with the STEM study or not.
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And none of them had really easy
solutions, and one of our goals in
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going forward is trying to give faculty
tools to improve pedagogy in ways that
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equitize that landscape a little bit more.
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I mean, that basic problem is
still always going to be there.
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It's a societal structural problem.
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But if we can nudge faculty to improve
how much feedback they're giving, how
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motivational that feedback is, how timely
it is, all of these things that maybe
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we can bring those students on those
two paths a little closer together.
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JOHN: This issue of disparate gender
outcomes in STEM fields is something
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we addressed a little bit on an
earlier podcast with Peter Arcidiacono.
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This seems to be common in many
disciplines, so addressing these issues,
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I think, could be really helpful.
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And one of the things that really
impressed me was looking at the
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people in the network, or the people
who are involved in this program.
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I'm not a biologist, but I recognize
an awful lot of the names there.
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How was the TUnE-Bio network assembled?
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SARAH: Dialing it back to those incubator
years, and before our unsuccessful to
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successful outcomes, originally, Jim
Lang and I were co-PIs, so we were both
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still at Assumption, and were both in
the same center, and so we were working
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together on this, and I was actually
really new to the field of teaching and
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learning, and didn't know a lot of people.
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I started out as a psychology, emotion
science, person, and only in the last 8 to
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10 years moved into teaching and learning.
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So a lot of them Jim recommended,
and then it was like a snowball.
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So we recommended them and some of
those people said, “No, but have you
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thought about asking this person?”
And so we kind of snowballed out,
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and we had our steering committee,
we asked them for recommendations,
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and they went out from that.
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And then Jim retired.
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Then that's when Michele Lemons my co
PI who is a neuroscientist, biologist
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at Assumption, that's when she joined.
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Jim's still on our steering committee,
but now Michele and I are co-PIs on
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the full proposal, and then we did
a big webinar, we did a big launch
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meeting, and we just actively recruited.
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So it's really kind of a snowball method.
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Also, Bryan Dewsbury is on our steering
committee, and he has a beautiful
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essay, I think, called the soul of
my pedagogy in Scientific American,
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and I had read that, and I was like,
“Let's invite that guy,” [LAUGHTER]
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and Jim was like, “Great suggestion.”
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REBECCA: It's always fun to see
all of those folks assembled in the
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same place, virtually or otherwise.
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[LAUGHTER] How does this project connect
to the concept of compassionate challenge
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that you focused on in Mind over Monsters?
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SARAH: Well, since we're focused on
feedback, and I think we'll talk about
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that in a little bit more, I see feedback
at the heart of compassionate challenge.
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So my framing of compassionate challenge
is that students, to be motivated and
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to learn effectively, they need both
compassion and challenge, kind of that
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false dichotomy that we get into and
dueling Chronicle op eds between like,
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“oh academic rigor” and “oh student
focusedness.” Like we need all of it.
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And I think that we respond best and
are motivated when we both are in a
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place where we feel psychological safety
and where we feel understood and seen
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as people, but then where we also are
challenged to rise to expectations.
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And feedback, I think, is just so critical
for student learning, because what
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feedback is, is you're giving students
information about “okay, where are you
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at in your current learning journey, and
where could you go, and how can you get
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there?” In that way, it's stretching them
saying, like, “Great job at the learning
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so far, but here's all the other places
we could go.” [LAUGHTER] But then we're
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really focused in the project, on how
can we give better feedback, and better
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feedback being compassionate, growth
mindset, motivational, offered in time
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that they can use it, including more
revisions of work, so that there's a
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reason for them to read the feedback.
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If they assess them on a learning
outcome, you give them feedback on
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how they did, and then they're never
assessed on that learning outcome
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again, I wouldn't read that feedback.
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[LAUGHTER] And so I think
feedback is really at the heart
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of compassionate challenge.
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JOHN: So right now, it sounds like
much of the work of the group is done
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in working groups, and you have five
working groups which are focused around
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different ways of providing that feedback.
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Could you talk a little bit about some
of the work of these working groups?
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SARAH: Absolutely, in the grant,
what we're doing currently is we're
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developing tool kits, so we want to
give faculty really practical ways
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that they could improve their feedback.
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And one of the other aspects of the
grant is that it intentionally puts
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in the same room, often the same Zoom
room, that we are gathering in person
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this May, educational developers and
people from the scholarship of teaching
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and learning, and then biologists.
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And so we're putting these minds together
so that the biologists can provide the
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context of teaching biology, and then
educational developers can provide the
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scholarship on teaching and learning.
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And we want to put them all together
in a room, develop these toolkits
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that will help biology faculty
teach in ways that improve feedback.
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And so one of the first things we did
is we assembled these toolkit working
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groups, as you're referencing John, and
we just today decided to call them twigs.
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We keep saying T, W, G, and that's
very difficult to say out loud.
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And then we were on a meeting with
one of our steering committee members,
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Linda Fergusson-Kolmes, and she was
like, I keep wanting to call it twig.
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And I was like, “Let's do it. Let's do
it.” So these twigs, [LAUGHTER] these
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each have co-leaders, and then they have
members who are also amazing folks, and
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they're focused on five different themes.
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So those themes are, first, how do
we get students motivated to actually
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use feedback and actually read it?
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Because there's some data that
suggests that, especially when
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feedback is paired with a poor
grade, students won't even read it.
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So one group is developing tools
to help faculty motivate students
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to uptake and use that feedback.
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Another is focused on peer feedback.
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Some of the tools in that toolkit
will relate to LAs, learning
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assistants and teaching assistants,
but then also ways that you can
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provide peer feedback in class.
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So motivation, peer feedback.
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One group's all focused on classroom
assessment techniques like clicker
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questions and other ways to quickly assess
and get feedback on student learning.
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One of the groups is developing a
toolkit on the seven principles of
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good feedback, asset-based feedback.
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And then finally, my favorite topic in the
world, but we have some lovely volunteers
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who are willing to go there, AI.
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[LAUGHTER] if we're doing
something on feedback, they
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have a challenge ahead of them.
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JOHN: I don't think we've had a podcast
in the last couple of years that have
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not at least mentioned AI in some way.
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REBECCA: This was yours, Sarah.
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[LAUGHTER] Now you can move on.
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[LAUGHTER]
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SARAH: Yes, we’re done.
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Check the box.
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Check the box.
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REBECCA: One of the things that we often
hear is like feedback and grading are
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intermingled or tangled up together.
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Can you talk a little bit
about decoupling of the two?
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SARAH: Yeah, sure.
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We definitely saw this, especially
in the qualitative interview.
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We tried to ask faculty separately about
assessment, feedback, and grading, and
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we defined those for them ahead of time
and in the process of the interview.
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And we defined feedback as information
that's given to students about the current
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state of learning or their performance
on the assessment, other than grading.
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And then we wanted grading to be grading.
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Faculty found that very difficult
to respond to those three things
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separately, because they're all
so integrated, and grading is
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one form of feedback, of course.
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We really tried to get them to
focus more on things like written
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feedback on short-answer questions,
and we have a subcommittee working
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on the qualitative interview coding.
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That's Brian Dewsbury and Lindsay
Wheeler and Michele and I, and we have a
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conceptual model of feedback that we're
building, and we really are thinking of
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feedback even as things like body language
in response to students’ questions,
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like really expansively about feedback.
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And I think that the more we can decouple
feedback from grading the better.
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And there's actually studies showing
that if you give feedback before you
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give the grade, if you like, kind of
withhold the grade and you give the
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feedback, students are more likely
to use it and implement it, because I
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think that the emotional power of the
grade just blows everything else out.
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REBECCA: As in, like the
grade feels too final?
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SARAH: Yeah, and if the grade is
lower than you expected or desired,
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especially if it's significantly lower,
I think a lot of students get very
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anxious, and it can be very difficult
to think really logically when your
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body's all kind of in a disarray.
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JOHN: For many years, when I gave back
exams, the students who did well would
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sit there and they'd be really happy and
really not focused that much on going
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over it and answering questions, and the
students that did badly just look kind
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of unhappy and just kind of set their
scowling, which is one of the reasons
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why I switched to two-stage exams, where
they took it first individually, and
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then it was such a different experience.
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I remember the time I took a short
video clip of the students in the second
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stage, and I shared it with Rebecca,
because it was just so impressive to
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see them actively discussing things
and working through it, because
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it was so different than earlier
experiences going over exams in class.
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SARAH: Yeah, I love two stage exams.
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JOHN: And I'm reinstituting them after
moving away during COVID [LAUGHTER] in
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one of the classes that I'm teaching.
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I'm looking forward to that again.
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You mentioned before that one of the
main barriers that faculty face in
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trying to implement things was time,
and certainly that's a major factor.
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But are those the only barriers that
faculty face when they try to change
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their teaching techniques, especially
if they're younger faculty, junior
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faculty in departments which may not
all be using these types of techniques.
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SARAH: Right off the bat, you identified
one of the major ones that we heard
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is, does your department support
innovation, and is there that support?
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And another thing that came up a lot,
and I see this a lot across all my work
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in different institutions, is students
[LAUGHTER] often resist innovations.
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And I think health science students
tend to be disproportionately this type
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of student who is used to a certain
level of grades and a certain level of
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positive feedback from their secondary
education, and then they hit college
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and they want to do that same thing.
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And this has always worked for them,
you know, these big exams, memorizing
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stuff, putting out the answer, like
that's worked for them in the past.
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And so I find when I'm working with
faculty who are innovating, especially
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in the arena of grading, they get the
most resistance from the students, who
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probably are going to get an A at the end
of the day, because of that resistance.
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But those two things can combine, and
I saw this at my previous institution,
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in the biology department actually, and
there were some faculty who were really
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doing innovative stuff, both with grading,
but also with active learning and kind
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of flipped classroom sorts of things.
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But then most of the department was not
doing that, and they experienced more
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student resistance, I think, because
they were in this setting where students
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would have that reassuring kind of
traditional experience in other faculty
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at that institution, and then they
would hit this one course with all this
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innovation and dislike it more than if
more the department were innovating.
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So that's another big one.
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There's also, and I think this was in
your question as well, but precarity of
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position, and that was one thing that
we asked about on the survey so that
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we could contextualize the responses.
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Contract faculty and pre-tenure faculty,
sometimes they innovate somehow, and
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it goes not so well, and then they
really get burned on their course
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evaluations at the end of the semester,
that that could put their livelihood
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at risk or their tenure trajectory.
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So that's another big barrier, time, time,
time, departments, really large classes,
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that it being difficult to increase
the amount of feedback you're giving
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students, especially things like written
feedback or in person, audio feedback.
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If you have 500 students,
that's very difficult.
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So large class sizes.
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REBECCA: One of the innovations
you mentioned at the top was about
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alternative grading practices.
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And given that low grades are
discouraging, and certainly one of the
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barriers for students succeeding in STEM
fields, how does alternative grading
375
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sit with some of the recommendations
coming out of your network?
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SARAH: Interestingly, we were more
focused on alternative grading in
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the early stages of the grant, we
actually thought that was going to
378
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be a major focus of the grant, so the
incubator was not honed in on feedback.
379
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It was more broadly assessment, feedback,
and grading, and we asked all those
380
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questions about alternative grading.
381
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We moved toward feedback for a couple
of different reasons, one being our
382
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sense that there was already amazing
work being done on alternative grading
383
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by other networks and other authors,
an entire ungrading conference, and
384
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feeling like that need was already
being filled a little bit in the
385
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world of teaching and learning.
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But then also, we observed two things
in the surveys and the interviews.
387
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One of the questions we
asked is, How aware of these
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alternative grading methods?
389
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And then we asked about a bunch of
critiques of traditional grading, and the
390
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extent to which people agreed or disagreed
with them, and whether they had tried
391
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them, if they hadn't tried them, why?
392
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And there were a lot of folks
kind of innovating at the margins.
393
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So they weren't going full ungrading,
but they were including pieces of that,
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and there was some resistance to it.
395
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We heard from some people that they
were not interested in it because of
396
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a variety of reasons, and so we didn't
see as high interest as we might
397
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have expected on alternative grading.
398
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But then we also saw that
people were most dissatisfied
399
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with their feedback practices.
400
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So when we asked people to rate
how satisfied they were with their
401
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current assessment feedback and
grading practices, we saw overall, a
402
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fair degree of satisfaction, but much
lower for feedback, significantly
403
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lower than for assessment or grading.
404
00:23:24,770 --> 00:23:29,050
And this came up on the
interviews as well, that we
405
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heard a lot of dissatisfaction.
406
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People would often wince, [LAUGHTER] when
we’re like, “What about your feedback?
407
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,120
How satisfied are you with how often
and the types of feedback you give?”
408
00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:40,400
And they would be like, “Oh, I should
do better.” [LAUGHTER] So we saw
409
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that, both on the survey and the
interviews, with such a high degree
410
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of interest in improving feedback
compared to assessment and grading.
411
00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:50,920
And then also, we felt like all the
alternative grading folks were already
412
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doing a great job working on that, and
we thought we could maybe contribute more
413
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and have more of a novel contribution
if we honed in on feedback instead.
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JOHN: So this project has been
going on for quite a while now.
415
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What are the next stages?
416
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SARAH: The next stage is very exciting.
417
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So the twigs, the toolkit working groups
with the five focuses, have been working
418
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really hard, and we're so grateful to
them developing a draft of their toolkits.
419
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And then in May, we're going to gather
at Simmons University in Boston, although
420
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it's going to be a hybrid meeting.
421
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So some folks will be joining virtually,
but a lot of us will be in person, and
422
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the toolkit working groups are going
to present their toolkits to the rest
423
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of the network, so not just people on
twigs and the steering committee, but
424
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also people involved in the network
more generally, and we're going to give
425
00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:44,040
them, wait for it, feedback, [LAUGHTER]
feedback on their toolkits, and then
426
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they will have a whole another year to
refine the toolkits based on the network's
427
00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:54,359
feedback on the toolkits, what people
would see is useful to include or ways
428
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they could shape or tune the toolkits.
429
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And then there's a last
stage of the grant.
430
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The last two years of the grant is
actually, and this is one of the
431
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reasons why I'm really happy to be
talking with you today, maybe it
432
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can spark some interest out there.
433
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We also are going to offer some
money from the grant to form regional
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hubs to apply for some funding to
use the toolkits in local events.
435
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And so we imagine maybe there'd
be like New England, Midwest,
436
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West Coast, and a couple different
institutions can gather together.
437
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There's a few stipulations.
438
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There has to be at least one community
college or minority-serving institution
439
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,699
involved from a non-deficit framework.
440
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There has to be multiple institutions
interested, someone willing to host,
441
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but they can apply for these kind of
vouchers to use, to bring in a speaker,
442
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or pay for some food or something in
these regional events, to use some part
443
00:25:47,290 --> 00:25:49,899
of the toolkit in an event regionally.
444
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:51,690
REBECCA: It's an exciting new development.
445
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:52,700
SARAH: Yeah.
446
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:53,936
I like the idea of it.
447
00:25:54,070 --> 00:25:57,359
You just give people money to
improve pedagogy and gather together.
448
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,260
It's like rare.
449
00:25:58,750 --> 00:25:58,800
[LAUGHTER]
450
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,350
REBECCA: It's a nice luxury.
451
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:00,960
[LAUGHTER]
452
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,410
SARAH: Yeah.
453
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,499
REBECCA: Weeding out is
not just a biology thing.
454
00:26:06,509 --> 00:26:11,070
[LAUGHTER] It's common in a lot
of different STEM departments.
455
00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:15,899
Do you see that the recommendations
from the TUnE-Bio project to
456
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,150
be applied and expand maybe to
these other disciplines as well?
457
00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:23,280
SARAH: Absolutely, and we
know it’s not just STEM but
458
00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:24,760
certainly feedbacks everybody.
459
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:29,700
And we're focused on undergraduate
biology because that's what the money's
460
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:33,510
for, [LAUGHTER] but a lot of us have
at the heart, we just want to improve
461
00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:38,430
pedagogy across the board, and a lot
of the toolkits, as they're being
462
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:41,919
developed, because we've been meeting
with the twig co-chairs regularly… I
463
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:46,570
think the classroom assessment technique
twig is a little more biology focused.
464
00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:50,400
I think they're developing actual
biology modules that people can use
465
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,080
in intro bio, but a lot of the other
ones, certainly the seven principles
466
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,190
of asset-based feedback and how to
get students be motivated to implement
467
00:26:58,190 --> 00:27:02,680
feedback are not going to be biology
specific, and are going to be useful
468
00:27:02,730 --> 00:27:05,330
to anyone teaching anything, I think.
469
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,759
And the toolkits will be distributed
through the regional hubs, but they're
470
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:13,140
also going to be just downloadable.
471
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:14,969
We're going to put them on our Qubes site.
472
00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:19,850
Qubes is a open website run by
the NSF, and we have a membership.
473
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:24,440
So all of these toolkits,
people and teaching centers can
474
00:27:24,450 --> 00:27:26,050
download a workshop in a box.
475
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:29,950
People who are teaching in their
individual class can download the
476
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,780
peer feedback, how to train students
to give better peer feedback, so
477
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:39,145
they'll be widely open to everyone,
and a lot of them are not going to
478
00:27:39,145 --> 00:27:41,479
be biology specific or stem specific.
479
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:45,210
JOHN: When we were talking about
the AI groups, you didn't seem
480
00:27:45,210 --> 00:27:47,979
quite as enthused about the AI twig.
481
00:27:48,429 --> 00:27:51,600
Could you talk a little bit about
some of your concerns about the
482
00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:54,169
increasing reliance on AI in higher ed?
483
00:27:54,709 --> 00:27:56,440
SARAH: Yeah, we could have
a whole thing about AI.
484
00:27:56,500 --> 00:28:00,330
I don't want to have a whole [LAUGHTER]
conversation about AI, but Pooja
485
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,760
Agarwal, I don't know if you know
her, she does retrieval practice,
486
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:07,550
is a widely known speaker in higher
ed, but we had a bunch of meetings.
487
00:28:07,550 --> 00:28:11,509
We were going to do an edited
collection called F-A-I, and it was
488
00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:13,550
all going to be just critical AI.
489
00:28:14,129 --> 00:28:14,990
So I'm not a fan of AI.
490
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:21,090
I do think there are roles for AI
in feedback, in particular, and I'm
491
00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:22,629
not completely resistant to that.
492
00:28:22,820 --> 00:28:26,370
And I think that if a student were
studying alone in their dorm anyway, but
493
00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:31,210
there was some kind of responsive tutoring
type of program that instead of doing
494
00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:35,800
flash cards or just underlining their
notes again, they had this experience
495
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,169
that was differentiated to them and
where they were at in their learning
496
00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:40,870
journey, that could be very effective.
497
00:28:41,150 --> 00:28:46,080
My concern is that we're going to instead
replace not the studying alone in the
498
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,270
dorm with AI, but a student coming
to office hours and sitting across
499
00:28:50,270 --> 00:28:54,570
from an instructor and having this
one-on-one conversation and developing
500
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:58,050
a relationship and, oh, you just
happen to also talk about an internship
501
00:28:58,059 --> 00:29:02,059
that the student could apply to, or
students working together in small
502
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:04,209
groups and giving each other feedback.
503
00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:08,390
So if AI is like, on top of all the
other stuff we're doing, like, I think
504
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:10,540
it could be powerful and interesting.
505
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:12,050
JOHN: Those are really good points.
506
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,870
On the other hand, just to bring up
one counter argument, we do know that
507
00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:20,749
first-generation students and students
from historically minoritized groups
508
00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:25,220
are less likely to go to office hours
and ask questions, and also maybe
509
00:29:25,220 --> 00:29:29,620
less likely to ask questions in class
because of imposter syndrome or some
510
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:33,149
concern that they don't want to reveal
that they don't understand something.
511
00:29:33,370 --> 00:29:37,530
If they have a Socratic tutor, which
is available 24 hours a day, seven
512
00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:41,930
days a week, they can ask it anything
without fear of embarrassment, which
513
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:46,070
may help them build up more confidence,
so that they can then approach the
514
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:50,050
instructor with questions, without
being as concerned about not being
515
00:29:50,050 --> 00:29:53,650
able to phrase things well or revealing
that they don't understand things.
516
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,209
SARAH: That is a good counter argument.
517
00:29:55,210 --> 00:30:00,129
I would still go with the additive one,
though, like, okay, let's make that
518
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,750
available to them, but let's not stop
all of the efforts that we do to try
519
00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:09,310
to draw them into office hours and into
the work, into the relationships in
520
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:13,100
the class, as long as we don't, then be
like, “Oh, it's fine. I don't have to
521
00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:16,089
do any of that inclusive teaching stuff
anymore, because we have this chatbot,”
522
00:30:16,379 --> 00:30:17,680
additive, not subtractive, um hmm.
523
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:18,370
[LAUGHTER]
524
00:30:18,370 --> 00:30:23,350
JOHN: And a great reference on some
ways of creating a safer environment for
525
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:26,870
students, a more comfortable environment
where they feel more comfortable talking
526
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:30,590
to their instructors is this book, I
think, Mind Over Monsters is the title.
527
00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:31,730
[LAUGHTER]
528
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:33,669
SARAH: I may have heard of that one.
529
00:30:35,529 --> 00:30:38,120
REBECCA: So we always wrap
up by asking: “What's next?”
530
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,840
SARAH: For the grant, the May meeting.
531
00:30:41,070 --> 00:30:45,929
This is definitely for me and my co-PI,
Michele Lemons, and a lot of my steering
532
00:30:45,929 --> 00:30:47,710
committee and the twig co-leaders.
533
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,350
This is going to be an intense
four months I guess, now.
534
00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:53,559
So that's the big thing, meeting together.
535
00:30:53,770 --> 00:30:55,620
I'm hoping it's also gonna be really fun.
536
00:30:55,630 --> 00:30:59,650
I think that the network's supposed to
be a network, and I want everyone to feel
537
00:30:59,650 --> 00:31:01,840
like they belong to this, like community.
538
00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:06,020
But so far, you know, the twigs have been
working kind of on their own, and the
539
00:31:06,020 --> 00:31:07,289
subcommittees of the steering committee.
540
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:10,769
And I'm really looking forward to
having everyone working together
541
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,470
and playing together a little
bit in the evenings, probably.
542
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,500
So that's what's next for the grant.
543
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,500
In terms of what's next for me, I
just signed a new book contract.
544
00:31:19,850 --> 00:31:20,639
REBECCA: That's exciting.
545
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,180
SARAH: So it's called Where
are all the Happy People?
546
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,340
So it's a psychology book, not a teaching
book, and it's about the fact that no
547
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:29,740
one is happy, and how can we be happier?
548
00:31:29,770 --> 00:31:33,020
And so I go to different spots
to try to find happy people and
549
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:34,450
then build a model of happiness.
550
00:31:34,860 --> 00:31:37,110
So some of those spots are the nunnery.
551
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,590
So I interviewed some nuns.
552
00:31:39,030 --> 00:31:40,919
Nude beaches is another.
553
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,659
The college classroom, actually is one,
and I interview Bryan Dewsbury for that.
554
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,029
Burning Man is another.
555
00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:52,350
So I'm Lithuanian in part and there's
a burgeoning pagan revival there.
556
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:56,010
So I'm hoping to get over to
Lithuania with my sib kid who
557
00:31:56,010 --> 00:31:57,340
has been learning Lithuanian.
558
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,480
JOHN: A somewhat different
sort of research.
559
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,280
That sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
560
00:32:01,889 --> 00:32:02,760
SARAH: I'm hoping so.
561
00:32:02,849 --> 00:32:07,140
I just wanted to spend the next
three years thinking about happiness.
562
00:32:08,050 --> 00:32:10,360
JOHN: Happiness has been a
little sparse for academics,
563
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,740
especially for the last year.
564
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,149
REBECCA: Well, I hope we find
out where all the happy people
565
00:32:14,150 --> 00:32:15,510
are, and we can join them.
566
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,799
SARAH: Meet at a nude beach.
567
00:32:17,460 --> 00:32:17,510
[LAUGHTER]
568
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:19,970
JOHN: It is 15 degrees right here today…
569
00:32:19,970 --> 00:32:20,023
SARAH: Yeah.
570
00:32:20,023 --> 00:32:20,185
[LAUGHTER] maybe not.
571
00:32:20,185 --> 00:32:20,238
[LAUGHTER]
572
00:32:20,238 --> 00:32:22,260
JOHN: …or that's the
projected high later today.
573
00:32:22,270 --> 00:32:24,869
It would have to be one
of those polar bear ones.
574
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,431
SARAH: Mmm, doesn't sound safe.
575
00:32:26,431 --> 00:32:26,435
REBECCA: …or happy.
576
00:32:26,435 --> 00:32:26,438
[LAUGHTER]
577
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:26,441
SARAH: No.
578
00:32:26,441 --> 00:32:27,530
Safe or happy.
579
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:33,899
Shall be tucked in around a
fireplace about now, I think.
580
00:32:34,530 --> 00:32:35,320
JOHN: Well, thank you.
581
00:32:35,620 --> 00:32:38,320
This is a wonderful project,
and we're looking forward to
582
00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:39,919
seeing those final toolkits.
583
00:32:40,350 --> 00:32:44,380
And I'm wondering if maybe there might
be some TUnE math and some TUnE chemistry
584
00:32:44,380 --> 00:32:47,950
and TUnE economics and other projects
in the future coming out of this.
585
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:49,920
REBECCA: Perhaps we'll
just tune the academy.
586
00:32:50,250 --> 00:32:51,370
JOHN: That would be much better.
587
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:53,129
SARAH: Oh, thank you both so much.
588
00:32:53,309 --> 00:32:54,109
REBECCA: It's always a pleasure.
589
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:55,580
[MUSIC]
590
00:33:01,049 --> 00:33:03,810
JOHN: If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe and
591
00:33:03,820 --> 00:33:07,880
leave a review on Apple Podcasts
or your favorite podcast service.
592
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,020
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
593
00:33:13,929 --> 00:33:16,540
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
594
00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:18,870
materials on teaforteaching.com.
595
00:33:19,890 --> 00:33:21,880
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
596
00:33:23,290 --> 00:33:26,070
JOHN: Editing Assistance
provided by Fred Llerena.
597
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:28,730
[MUSIC]