WEBVTT
00:00:19.391 --> 00:00:30.922
Tarot Interviews Today.
00:00:30.922 --> 00:00:38.674
In Tarot Interviews with Fin this week, we welcome a writer whose work reshapes the boundaries of fantasy, folklore and the human condition.
00:00:38.674 --> 00:00:49.149
Kit Whitfield is the acclaimed author of Bareback, published in the US as Benighted, a novel that reimagines the werewolf myth through the lens of institutional power and marginalisation.
00:00:49.149 --> 00:00:57.664
A second novel, in Great Waters, an audacious alternate history of merfolk and monarchy, earned a shortlist nomination for the World Fantasy Award.
00:00:57.664 --> 00:01:16.471
More recently, kit has enchanted readers with the Guyford series, beginning with the In in the heart of hidden things and continuing with in all of the hollow of the sky, weaving tales of changelings, kindness and uncanny Englishness, with a folkloric warmth that's rare in modern fantasy.
00:01:16.471 --> 00:01:19.981
Kit's pulling three cards from the deck today.
00:01:19.981 --> 00:01:21.364
Let's find out what they are.
00:01:21.364 --> 00:01:23.710
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
00:01:23.710 --> 00:01:26.046
Kit Whitfield, what kind of a day are you having today?
00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:27.444
I'm good, thank you.
00:01:27.444 --> 00:01:32.231
I'm really interested in how this is going to go, because this is my first tarot reading.
00:01:32.231 --> 00:01:38.870
I've always been interested and I think it's going to be a lot of fun, but you may have to expect some stupid questions from me.
00:01:39.260 --> 00:01:48.287
I'm here to guide you through it and I'm just grateful that you saw a strange man on I think it was Bluesky, who has a podcast about tarot cards who said, do you want to be on the show?
00:01:48.287 --> 00:01:55.391
And you're like, yeah, why not, let's do this like yeah, that sounds like so much fun well, bless you.
00:01:55.590 --> 00:01:57.320
The deck of cards is in my hand right now.
00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:08.364
We're using the Rider Waite Smith today, as always, and before I start pulling cards out one by one, we may get major, we may get minor arcana, and I'll guide you through what all of those mean.
00:02:08.364 --> 00:02:13.087
Are there any particular cards that you have had more of an interest in than others?
00:02:13.087 --> 00:02:15.395
Have you seen anything in popular culture and gone?
00:02:15.395 --> 00:02:16.462
What does that mean?
00:02:16.462 --> 00:02:17.645
I'm curious.
00:02:17.966 --> 00:02:32.701
I know that death is supposed to be a good card, but beyond that I'm curious and I'm going to admit now that I don't know what any of the suits mean okay, again, happy to guide you through all of this, in fact, if it helps illustrate the cards a little better.
00:02:32.741 --> 00:02:45.868
Of course you'll be able to see the pictures themselves, but we recently, at tarot interviews, made a series of playlists for each and every card major arcana, minor arcana and married that to a particular song that we quite like.
00:02:45.868 --> 00:02:59.570
We are rather biased in those song choices, so if there's a particular card that we pull out that you're not sure about, I'd be able to tell you oh, I don't know the two of swords that is represented by, under Pressure, by Queen and David Bowie.
00:02:59.570 --> 00:03:05.560
And then immediately I get the vibe Okay, so the cards are in my hand Now.
00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:14.027
They have been riffle shuffled 10 times to completely randomize them no chicanery, no nonsense, and I'd like you to tell me when to stop.
00:03:18.401 --> 00:03:19.306
Oh, he looks fun.
00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:23.727
And you have there the Page of Cups Out of interest, the Page of Cups.
00:03:23.727 --> 00:03:26.086
This may be the first time you've seen this.
00:03:27.401 --> 00:03:29.048
It is actually Okay.
00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:31.507
What vibes do you get immediately?
00:03:31.507 --> 00:03:32.765
What do the colours say?
00:03:32.765 --> 00:03:34.867
What does the pose represent to you?
00:03:35.860 --> 00:03:40.004
Intuitively I would say playful, Okay Is this wildly wrong.
00:03:40.567 --> 00:03:40.907
No, no, no.
00:03:40.907 --> 00:03:41.280
I mean.
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:46.670
The Page of Cups often represents hope, inspiration, possibly immaturity.
00:03:46.670 --> 00:03:47.774
This is a card that you want.
00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:55.693
Well, I'm in the middle of starting a new book, so inspiration is absolutely a good sign for me.
00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:59.050
And cups are always the suit of the heart.
00:03:59.050 --> 00:04:10.229
Of course you'd see that in a deck of playing cards represented by the hearts themselves, but the Page of Cups, it brings tender-hearted, imaginative energy.
00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:17.096
It's often the arrival of an unexpected message, creative opportunity, an emotional opening, that type of thing.
00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:21.302
Well creative opportunity sounds brilliant.
00:04:21.302 --> 00:04:26.000
I've got to say I don't know if you're familiar with the artist Dodie, if you've heard any of Dodie's music at all.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:31.860
In the playlist that we have, the Cups playlist, which is at tarotinterviewscom forward slash cups.
00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:36.290
This card is represented by the song Human by Dodie.
00:04:36.290 --> 00:04:54.406
If you haven't heard it, it is a wonderful, heartfelt, quite delicate song, but that kind of gives you an idea of what this card is about so I will be listening to it shortly right, let me think of a question I should also warn you, I'm really ignorant about music, so, um not.
00:04:54.447 --> 00:05:04.062
So I may be doing some looking up after this of course, if you check out the playlist and there's one for the major arcana, one for all of the suits, might give you a slightly better understanding.
00:05:04.062 --> 00:05:05.685
But uh, it's, it's, it's very good track.
00:05:05.685 --> 00:05:08.348
I'm biased because I like all of those songs anyway.
00:05:08.348 --> 00:05:08.970
Page of cups.
00:05:08.970 --> 00:05:16.117
Okay, what is a surprising idea that's recently caught your curiosity that you've come up with?
00:05:16.577 --> 00:05:28.052
Recently I have been looking into I'm I'm starting a new writing project and I'm playing around with the idea of spiritualism, so I've just uh, finished reading an enormous long book at the subject.
00:05:28.052 --> 00:05:31.249
So yeah, that's most of the books that I've written.
00:05:31.249 --> 00:05:39.987
Certainly the books I wrote most recently, which is the Guyford series, are set in, I would say like once upon a time.
00:05:39.987 --> 00:05:46.382
But my rule of thumb there is that I don't use any language that you couldn't find in Shakespeare, at least in the dialogue.
00:05:46.422 --> 00:06:29.704
I mean, people don't say the and thou, but I'm a big etymology nerd, so I'm always like looking up I think this word is not too modern, but I'm gonna check Smiths, who live in a village where it follows a family of talisman creators, come social workers who have to support the folks when they are plagued by the people, which is to say humans, when they're bothered by fae spirits such as, for example, fighting bramble bushes, a pig that thinks it's the Garwain poet, giant spider that feels extremely sorry for itself, a fiery black dog that eats landlords who he is a fan favorite I can't imagine why.
00:06:29.704 --> 00:06:41.752
And um, I've got a book, um on submission right now, which I I feel I will jinx if I describe, but that is also set like several centuries ago.
00:06:41.752 --> 00:06:48.252
So for me, looking into something that's still historical but a bit more modern has been a recent creative idea.
00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:58.848
So when you say spiritualism, are we talking like the kind of 1920s style spiritualism, or is the influence 1860s is what.
00:06:58.848 --> 00:07:03.930
I'm looking at Okay, Not an area I'm familiar with but what gave you this idea?
00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:28.435
I honestly can't tell you I I'm a writer who goes very much by prompts for the most part, like last year, um, I and a friend, charlotte bond, who's lovely fantasy writer, you should definitely check her out as well we did this game where another writer, stephanie burgess, and her, released a one-word prompt for drawing every day of Halloween.
00:07:28.435 --> 00:07:30.487
So we decided you know what we're going to do.
00:07:30.487 --> 00:07:41.495
We're going to write a short story every day for a month according to these prompts, which were things like toothy or moon or bad hair day or whatever.
00:07:41.495 --> 00:07:44.629
So I'm someone who writes very much in response to.
00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:49.632
There are some writers who have a million ideas lined up in their head ready to go.
00:07:49.632 --> 00:07:58.463
I envy them, but I am somebody who, if you toss me a ball, I will run with it, but I kind of need the initial prompt.
00:07:58.463 --> 00:08:00.649
So spiritualism.
00:08:00.649 --> 00:08:11.612
The truth is, I've just been like reading books of folklore, reading books of history, and I think I just tripped over this idea and thought, well, I'm going to see what I can come up with.
00:08:11.612 --> 00:08:15.971
And I'm in the stage at the moment, very much where I'm I call it making mud pies.
00:08:15.971 --> 00:08:18.509
I'm just slapping my dears together and seeing what happens.
00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:23.470
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan.
00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:24.860
The story is going somewhere.
00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:25.862
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan.
00:08:25.862 --> 00:08:26.502
The story is going somewhere.
00:08:26.502 --> 00:08:38.775
She released an album called the Dreaming, which, on the cover of the Dreaming, is a picture of Kate Bush about to kiss a man who represents Houdini and she's passing a key to Houdini with her mouth.
00:08:38.775 --> 00:08:45.980
That's pretty cool.
00:08:45.980 --> 00:09:01.168
Because of this cover, I then went on to be quite interested in Houdini and what he did, and he spent a good part of his time outside of doing magic tricks trying to debunk people like spiritualists, and I seem to remember he was kind of the James Randi of his era, Exactly exactly, and I seem to remember the quote it takes a flim flammer to know.
00:09:01.207 --> 00:09:06.639
A flim flammer really brought his work to me, flim Flammer to Noah, flim Flammer really brought his work to me.
00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:13.010
But that's the only side of spiritualism I've seen has been the basically the kind of the charlatanism of it.
00:09:13.010 --> 00:09:14.940
But have you been looking into more of the more spiritual part of that?
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:22.712
What I would say from what I've gathered and again I do not know what at this point would get into a book.
00:09:22.712 --> 00:09:28.889
I'd be writing, because the only way I write books is I write rubbish until I trip over something good, and I'm in the writing rubbish stage.
00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:36.616
But, that said, the read I get is that it was a religion like many other religions.
00:09:36.616 --> 00:09:50.708
It was not unlike, I would say, wicca today, which is to say, among other things, very much a religion that women could hold a spiritually authoritative role in, which was not the case in most religions.
00:09:50.708 --> 00:10:00.320
And I think that there was a spectrum between just straight up hoaxers who were doing stage magic, true believers.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:20.625
At the opposite end of the spectrum and in the middle, I think you've got people who did believe in what they were doing but felt that, you know, just to help the spirits along a bit or to keep the audience interested in the real stuff, it's not really cheating if I just like regurgitate a bit of muslin and call it ectoplasm, right?
00:10:20.625 --> 00:10:28.505
So I think even in true believers there was a certain amount of stage magic some of the time.
00:10:28.505 --> 00:10:34.164
But then there was also things like automatic writing, which the people doing it genuinely believed in.
00:10:34.164 --> 00:10:36.669
And yeah, so there was.
00:10:36.811 --> 00:10:45.158
There was, I'd say, quite a wide range of how people believed what they themselves were saying and how much their audiences believed it.
00:10:45.158 --> 00:10:52.121
Their audiences would range from true believers to people who were just kind of going because it seemed like a fun night out.
00:10:52.121 --> 00:11:07.986
To you know, if it was a public performance, because middle class and upper class spiritualists would have private sittings where the audiences would be known and part of their social circle and well behaved Working class ones who had to do it for a living could not vet their audience.
00:11:07.986 --> 00:11:10.962
So you could get, you know, drunks heckling you.
00:11:10.962 --> 00:11:20.618
You could get what were called spirit grabbers, people who would try to like, tackle the manifested spirit to see if it was actually just the medium in a costume.
00:11:21.019 --> 00:11:32.788
It could be quite rowdy if you had public performances you've just got me thinking as well that the, as far as I'm aware, a lot of the spiritualism when it's been its most popular tends to be after a disaster or war.
00:11:32.788 --> 00:11:40.130
So the people attending these spiritualist events, it's almost like a form of therapy before we called it therapy.
00:11:40.130 --> 00:11:58.673
It's a way of letting yes, or a way of releasing that so I can see the use there.
00:11:58.692 --> 00:12:00.073
I'd be fascinated to read more.
00:12:00.073 --> 00:12:13.053
My grandfather invaded the session, described as an irascible old gentleman that she didn't like very much, who opined that modern mathematics had it all very wrong and string theory was where it was at.
00:12:13.053 --> 00:12:22.388
And I mean it may have been cold reading, because I think many people know an irascible old gentleman and certainly when she heard that she said oh oh, that's Cormac.
00:12:22.388 --> 00:12:23.591
That's definitely Cormac.
00:12:23.591 --> 00:12:25.447
That's the most irascible old gentleman.
00:12:25.447 --> 00:12:36.525
But who knows Certainly if anybody deceased I ever knew was the sort to interrupt a spiritualist session, it would have been my grandfather.
00:12:36.525 --> 00:12:38.184
He did like attention.
00:12:38.567 --> 00:12:42.970
Okay, well, that's your first card, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down.
00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:44.990
We've got two more cards to go Stupid, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down.
00:12:44.942 --> 00:12:45.881
We've got two more cards to go.
00:12:45.881 --> 00:12:48.299
Stupid question what's the difference between the major and the minor arcana?
00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:51.210
The easy way of saying that is, the major arcana are the famous ones.
00:12:51.210 --> 00:12:53.828
The minor arcana are the ones that look a bit like playing cards.
00:12:53.828 --> 00:12:58.471
I mean, of course, the minor arcana are separated into the suits that you mentioned.
00:12:58.471 --> 00:13:09.155
Each one of those, depending on your interpretation, can represent different elements, can represent different kind of parts of the human experience, with the major arcana being spirit, for example.
00:13:09.155 --> 00:13:13.357
So you might attribute I don't know very kind of basic things, like you might say.
00:13:13.357 --> 00:13:16.966
The ones which are represented by fire are the cards of inspiration.
00:13:16.966 --> 00:13:21.360
The cups which represent water are the cards of deep emotions.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.745
You could take those kind of readings from them, but it's all part of the toolkit.
00:13:24.745 --> 00:13:35.602
So the minor arcana are the ones that, to be honest, are the ones I check first when I buy a new deck, because, well, you get most often for a start because there's only 22 major arcana cards in a 78 card deck.
00:13:35.883 --> 00:13:51.160
So I like the artwork on the minor arcana to be good and often people kind of just sort of it's the area where people scamp, because let me guess they will not be the cards that are shown on the marketing material, right, Exactly.
00:13:51.402 --> 00:14:01.288
The ones that are going to be shown are the magician, the fool, you know, the famous ones, rarely things like the hanged man, which is one of my favourite cards, or death, as you say, for obvious reasons.
00:14:01.288 --> 00:14:03.226
That's the difference between the two there.
00:14:03.226 --> 00:14:05.485
But after that let's go.
00:14:05.485 --> 00:14:09.668
Now, one of them really wanted to say hello.
00:14:09.668 --> 00:14:10.684
Let's place that one back.
00:14:10.684 --> 00:14:12.426
It's trying to announce itself there.
00:14:12.426 --> 00:14:16.803
Okay, right, so say stop whenever you're ready.
00:14:20.797 --> 00:14:21.640
Queen of Swords.
00:14:22.274 --> 00:14:23.879
Another minor arcana there.
00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.066
Okay, what does the Queen of Swords say to you?
00:14:26.774 --> 00:14:29.481
I was talking about Boudicca this morning.
00:14:29.481 --> 00:14:31.366
That's what comes to my mind right now.
00:14:32.697 --> 00:14:33.562
What were you saying about Boudicca?
00:14:34.056 --> 00:14:35.057
Bit of crip humour.
00:14:35.057 --> 00:14:36.581
I walk with a rollator.
00:14:36.581 --> 00:14:43.182
That's like a seat that you wheel along because a few years ago I decided I was going to get so fit and I injured my back.
00:14:43.182 --> 00:14:55.298
So now I walk with a rollator and I was joking about putting knives on the wheels and rolling along like Boudicca, because when you use a mobility aid you make a lot of jokes about it.
00:14:55.298 --> 00:15:00.900
It's how you get through the day and in fact I have blinged up my rollator.
00:15:00.900 --> 00:15:04.943
It's got like a knitted log with leaves and a slug across the bar.
00:15:05.464 --> 00:15:10.687
It's got crocheted toadstool caps for its cogs.
00:15:10.687 --> 00:15:12.328
It's got a velvet seat.
00:15:12.328 --> 00:15:18.253
When I'm meeting new people I say you can find me by I'm the one with the Goblin Corps rollator.
00:15:18.253 --> 00:15:21.705
So this morning I was thinking I might Boudica up my rollator.
00:15:21.705 --> 00:15:30.049
So history and empowerment and laughing at yourself would be the moods I had about that.
00:15:30.315 --> 00:15:38.967
The Queen of Swords is a card of clear perception, of intellect, of independence, of taking no nonsense, suffering no fools.
00:15:38.967 --> 00:15:45.831
It represents razor sharp clarity, speaking the truth even if people don't want to hear that truth.
00:15:45.831 --> 00:15:47.437
It's a card of mature wisdom.
00:15:47.437 --> 00:15:54.900
Going back to my songs that I was mentioning before, this one is represented by Paris Paloma's Labour in our playlist, and if you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
00:15:54.900 --> 00:15:55.383
It is an incredible one.
00:15:55.383 --> 00:15:56.245
I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in.
00:15:56.245 --> 00:15:58.893
Not, you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
00:15:58.893 --> 00:15:59.816
It is an incredible one.
00:15:59.816 --> 00:16:06.058
I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in Nottingham in the last year and it was one of the best gigs that I've been to for a long time.
00:16:06.058 --> 00:16:07.261
It was incredible.
00:16:07.261 --> 00:16:12.360
Yes, it's a song that takes one hefty swipe at patriarchy, queen of Swords.
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:21.524
So the question for you about this one is how do you use clarity and critique in your editing process?
00:16:22.285 --> 00:16:27.322
Well, I would say that the editing process for me is two things.
00:16:27.322 --> 00:16:33.278
There is and I think I can see both of them in the light of the Queen of Swords vibe.
00:16:33.278 --> 00:16:45.644
On the one hand, I feel like I need to listen to my own ear, and I'm a writer who I'm physically very clumsy, but whenever I talk about editing, suddenly my language gets very physical.
00:16:45.644 --> 00:16:50.140
I talk about rhythm, I talk about balance, I talk about beat.
00:16:50.140 --> 00:17:09.316
I am a terrible dancer, but I talk about writing like I talk about choreography, I think, having a clear sense of the pulse of a sentence, which probably I'm the only one who gets that worked up about, but that's something that I need to hear clearly.
00:17:09.316 --> 00:17:21.788
On the other hand, when you're being edited, you need to be a grown-up about it, which means somebody may criticize something and you go, ah no, but then you go no, hang on a second, hang on a second.
00:17:22.255 --> 00:17:39.928
You know be aggrieved about this, and the rule I have for myself is if somebody misinterpreted a sentence I wrote, they may be taking away the wrong message from it, but that's on me for writing a sentence that was not impossible to misinterpret.
00:17:39.928 --> 00:17:47.862
I will go back and I'll change it, and usually my editors have had to be quite patient because I am very particular in editing.
00:17:47.862 --> 00:18:02.859
But my rule of thumb with myself is if somebody wants a sentence changed, I will change it, but I want to be the one who changes it myself because I want to bring it back into a state of balance.
00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:11.666
So if you take out a two-syllable word and replace it with a one-syllable word, I'll be like, okay, we can take that word out, but I'm choosing a different synonym.
00:18:12.315 --> 00:18:15.605
Is that because somebody's introduced discord into your symphony?
00:18:15.954 --> 00:18:18.701
Essentially, yes, it feels wrong.
00:18:18.701 --> 00:18:25.335
It doesn't balance right in my hand, Like I I'm going to call it a throwing knife, since we're talking swords, that you know.
00:18:25.335 --> 00:18:29.807
If the throwing knife does not balance right in my hand, I cannot make it hit the target.
00:18:29.807 --> 00:18:38.202
So, yes, I think it's a question of maturity and grace, in that you have to be polite to anybody who's editing you, and I have edited myself.
00:18:38.202 --> 00:18:39.306
It is a difficult job.
00:18:39.306 --> 00:18:52.694
I have a tremendous respect for editors and so, yeah, it's a question of balancing being not a complete pain in the neck to work with and at the same time, but I want to make sure that we're both happy with it.
00:18:53.517 --> 00:18:54.298
That makes a lot of sense.
00:18:54.298 --> 00:18:56.623
This is not a process that I've ever been through.
00:18:56.623 --> 00:19:02.001
Most of my scribblings just only get to the notepad and I say notepad generously.
00:19:02.001 --> 00:19:05.656
They tend to get onto the back of a bus ticket, onto a beer mat.
00:19:05.656 --> 00:19:15.664
Spontaneous inspiration yeah, I find almost any surface other than your regular blank page to be the perfect medium, but it never goes beyond that.
00:19:15.664 --> 00:19:23.965
So the idea of somebody looking at something, refining it, taking it down to its best possible parts to me that is true magic.
00:19:24.795 --> 00:19:29.487
I'll tell you, it's an absolute rule of thumb Never give a writer a beautiful notebook.
00:19:29.487 --> 00:19:32.580
An artist who draws, yeah, they'll use it.
00:19:32.580 --> 00:19:38.318
A writer will get blocked because they will just feel the pressure of living up to this notebook.
00:19:38.318 --> 00:19:43.929
Every good result I've had using a notebook has been from a really tatty, cheap, bashed up one.
00:19:43.929 --> 00:19:51.886
You know, the tattier they are, the more sorry I am when they get filled up because the more I just feel oh, that was just such an unthreatening notebook.
00:19:51.886 --> 00:20:00.945
Often these days, my notes, I will just email myself something off a device, not least because I have terrible, terrible handwriting.
00:20:00.945 --> 00:20:11.990
I, you know, I am a writer in the sense that I use language, in the sense of a fine penman's hand that I lack.
00:20:12.734 --> 00:20:22.190
I can imagine you with one of those jewelers, spy glasses peering at this arcane script which you jotted down an hour before pretty much.
00:20:22.355 --> 00:20:28.257
Yes, I you know give me a moment to forget and I can't always read my own handwriting that I'm a pretty good typist.
00:20:28.257 --> 00:20:32.986
That will have to suffice right card number three.
00:20:33.326 --> 00:20:35.455
Hey, I will shuffle in the position.
00:20:35.455 --> 00:20:40.021
Keep shuffling, yep, and wait for that universe to boop you.
00:20:42.384 --> 00:20:42.726
Stop.
00:20:46.310 --> 00:20:47.858
Huh, the Knight of Pentacles.
00:20:47.858 --> 00:20:51.734
Oh scary, it's one that doesn't get enough praise, I think.
00:20:51.734 --> 00:20:53.682
Now again, what are your vibes from this?
00:20:53.682 --> 00:20:55.806
From the colour, from what's going on in the picture?
00:20:55.806 --> 00:20:56.489
What is it Soti?
00:20:58.096 --> 00:21:05.940
Oh, I'm getting a very Arthurian vibe because I'm a fan of the poem Garwain and the Green Knight.
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:14.642
That's what I think of when I see a five-pointed star inside of a circle, but there's something a little doom-laden about the extremely yellow sky.
00:21:14.642 --> 00:21:15.786
He's against.
00:21:17.115 --> 00:21:22.657
Can you just remind me about the story of was it, gawain and the Green Knight Very quickly.
00:21:22.657 --> 00:21:23.643
What happens in that story?
00:21:24.516 --> 00:21:28.386
Oh well, it's Christmas at King Arthur's Court.
00:21:28.386 --> 00:21:33.134
There is festivity, there is feasting, there is joking, there is partying.
00:21:33.134 --> 00:21:54.946
And just as everybody is really into it, into the hall rides a gigantic man wreathed in holly on a massive steed that, like himself, is green down to the last pore, and he says to Arthur, I have a Christmas New Year game for you to play.
00:21:54.946 --> 00:21:55.848
It's a challenge.
00:21:55.848 --> 00:22:03.980
I will kneel and you, or one of your knights, whoever feels brave enough, can take one stroke against me.
00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:05.823
I will not resist.
00:22:05.823 --> 00:22:15.542
And then, a year from now, I ask that whoever did that to me comes to me and I will give him back whatever he gave to me.
00:22:16.304 --> 00:22:29.454
Everybody is a little nervous about this, because this is a green, enormous, gigantic, unsettling, clearly uncanny man in their midst and there's got to be a catch here.
00:22:29.454 --> 00:22:36.938
Somehow, the Green Knight jeers at their cowardice and Arthur leaps up and says well, fine, then I will.
00:22:36.938 --> 00:22:49.779
But at this point Sir Garwain, who is known as the most courteous and tactful of all the knights, stands up and says no, no, my lord uncle, this is completely beneath you, I'm rubbish.
00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.968
He is not rubbish, he's the best knight in the court.
00:22:52.968 --> 00:22:53.836
But he says you know what?
00:22:53.836 --> 00:23:03.261
Everybody knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable, knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable.
00:23:03.281 --> 00:23:03.743
My lord, let me do this.
00:23:03.743 --> 00:23:09.019
So he goes up and he takes a swing at the green knight and he knocks his head clear from his shoulders and it rolls across the floor.
00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:17.041
The green knight stands up, picks it up, tucks it under his arm and the head says to him I will see you in a year then.
00:23:17.041 --> 00:23:20.848
And he rides out and thus the tale begins.
00:23:20.848 --> 00:23:32.703
Garwain has a pentacle in his shield which is a five-pointed star, which is all about how he is devoted to the many five-fold Christian virtues.
00:23:32.703 --> 00:23:38.967
But towards the end of the story he reveals himself not quite such a perfect knight as he aspired to be.
00:23:39.515 --> 00:23:39.977
A couple of things.
00:23:39.977 --> 00:23:41.983
First of all, I loved your green knight voice.
00:23:41.983 --> 00:23:42.776
Thanks.
00:23:42.776 --> 00:23:46.405
You had to come from nowhere In my imagination as you were describing that story.
00:23:46.405 --> 00:23:51.548
For some reason, gawain in my head looks just like Mark Owen from Take that.
00:23:51.548 --> 00:23:54.163
He's got that kind of pretty boy vibe, yeah.
00:23:55.035 --> 00:23:56.957
He's certainly considered a heartthrob.
00:23:56.957 --> 00:24:08.404
He gets into trouble later because he is staying at the manor of a generous knight called Ser Bersilak and the lady of the manor thinks that he's quite the fine fellow, garwain.
00:24:08.404 --> 00:24:23.857
And while Garwain is resting, while her husband's off hunting, she spends three days making some very, very serious attempts to get into that armor, very serious attempts to get into that armor.
00:24:23.857 --> 00:24:27.048
And uh, garwain does not wish to cuckold his host, especially since at this point in the tale, another agreement has been made.
00:24:27.048 --> 00:24:37.099
His host has said to him you know what, mate, you rest up in bed and I'm gonna go hunting and at the end of the day we will swap whatever we gained during the day.
00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:45.241
So so, whatever Garwain gets from this lady, according to his oath he is going to have to hand over to her husband at the end of the day.
00:24:45.241 --> 00:24:49.864
So for more than one reason he feels he's got to say no.
00:24:49.864 --> 00:24:57.203
But she is very determined and turning her down politely becomes very discreet battle of its own kind.
00:24:57.684 --> 00:24:58.025
Let's see.
00:24:58.025 --> 00:25:01.742
I thought that story was going to end with a and why not both ending?
00:25:01.742 --> 00:25:03.980
Maybe that's the fanfic.
00:25:04.474 --> 00:25:06.763
Well, there are many queer readings of it.
00:25:06.763 --> 00:25:15.226
There's a very good YouTube video by, I think, the YouTuber Kat Rowe, who talks about the queer history of the Green Knight story.
00:25:15.226 --> 00:25:22.699
It's in Middle English so you may need to get one with a parallel translation and it's also.
00:25:22.699 --> 00:25:35.977
It's a rather wonderful form of verse in which, rather than rhyming, for the most part the scheme is every line contains four stressed syllables, at least three of which alliterate.
00:25:35.977 --> 00:25:38.999
So it's lines like three of which alliterate.
00:25:38.999 --> 00:25:44.523
So it's lines like the greener canicht on the prune graderli him brasses, or the gormer on kringlet under him glide.
00:25:44.523 --> 00:25:59.855
And, like I said, I'm a bit of an etymology geek so I love this kind of thing which, like in the second of my two Guyford books you remember I mentioned, there's a pig that thinks it's the Gawain poet.
00:25:59.855 --> 00:26:06.156
I nicked the I'm going to talk in alliterative verse just because I thought that would just be really, really fun to play with and it really was.
00:26:06.979 --> 00:26:10.988
I admire that crystalline precision that you have with language there.
00:26:10.988 --> 00:26:18.237
Okay, well, the Knight Pentacles he's a steady, loyal, deeply committed chap, dedicated to the task at hand.
00:26:18.237 --> 00:26:23.608
He represents persistence and hard work, a methodical approach to building something lasting.
00:26:23.608 --> 00:26:28.446
And he's not like the flashier of a knight he doesn't rush, he plans, he prepares.
00:26:28.446 --> 00:26:30.219
He's like Sir Tortoise.
00:26:30.219 --> 00:26:33.846
Okay, knight of Pentacles, he's a mensch.
00:26:33.846 --> 00:26:38.855
How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project?
00:26:40.442 --> 00:26:42.753
How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project?
00:26:42.753 --> 00:26:45.434
I think?
00:26:45.434 --> 00:26:46.778
Well, I would say a life lesson that I have to live by.
00:26:46.778 --> 00:26:55.275
I have a kid with special needs and you do not last in this life if you can't marathon instead of sprint, I think.
00:26:55.275 --> 00:27:01.861
I mean, I write folk fantasy and anybody who likes fantasy almost certainly likes the books of Terry Pratchett.
00:27:01.861 --> 00:27:14.711
There is a line in one of them, one of the Witches series, I think, which I kind of frequently remind myself of, which is the hard way is pretty hard, but not so hard as the easy way.
00:27:14.711 --> 00:27:16.452
I really agree with that.
00:27:16.452 --> 00:27:18.219
Do you know which book that's from?
00:27:18.219 --> 00:27:19.001
From Terry Pratchett?
00:27:19.001 --> 00:27:28.060
I think it's Lords and Ladies, which is in fact the one that talks about, where he talks about the myth of cold iron.
00:27:28.060 --> 00:27:29.604
I think it's Lords and Ladies.
00:27:29.604 --> 00:27:31.667
I know it's Granny Weatherwax who says it.
00:27:32.096 --> 00:27:34.038
So you mentioned your child.
00:27:34.038 --> 00:27:36.122
How have you managed to work around?
00:27:36.122 --> 00:27:44.214
You know challenges and low energy days and anything that life has had to bring up to bear against you when you try to write.
00:27:44.535 --> 00:27:54.510
What I would say primarily I mean, apart from the fact that I mean when he was very little, I just didn't have time, which is why there is a big gap between my second and my third book hitting the market.
00:27:54.510 --> 00:28:04.303
What he has taught me is a sense of humor, not just I don't mean I just sit there and laugh at him, because that would be rotten of me, but he's a very funny person.
00:28:04.303 --> 00:28:14.096
He's a very playful, energetic, joyful kind of person and because he's autistic with ADHD, he has a different set of priorities to me.
00:28:14.096 --> 00:28:21.636
So in his toddlerhood was very important, you know, I would be continually discovering.
00:28:21.737 --> 00:28:45.487
Apparently there's a rule that the toothpaste has to go on the left hand side of the sink, which is not a rule that I thought mattered, but in fact that turned into an inspiration, because when I started the guyford series, my inspiration for that was um, there's a tale about a church in the isle of man, I believe, which has no roof, and the story goes that they built it, they added a roof.
00:28:45.487 --> 00:28:47.999
Overnight, the fairies knocked the roof down.
00:28:47.999 --> 00:28:50.184
So the next day they built another roof.
00:28:50.184 --> 00:29:11.882
That night the fairies knocked it down again, and this went back and forth for some time until they took the point and now there only stands four walls and a field and an unfinished church Because, as the narrator, it was on a kid's program saying nobody knows why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof and I thought well, obviously I know why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof.
00:29:12.242 --> 00:29:15.198
It's because the first time they saw it it had no roof.
00:29:15.198 --> 00:29:22.910
So as far as they were concerned, it shouldn't have a roof, because if it was going to have a roof it would have a roof, but it didn't have a roof, so it shouldn't have a roof.
00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:25.058
And I then started thinking you know what?
00:29:25.058 --> 00:29:38.259
I live in a home where there is more than one way of thinking about what's important, and if you live together as a loving family, you have to learn to see the funny side of each other.
00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:44.769
And so that in the end turns into an inspiration.
00:29:44.769 --> 00:29:47.153
Because I think it took.
00:29:47.292 --> 00:29:55.409
I think my writing became more comical after my son was born, because sometimes you just have to acknowledge.
00:29:55.409 --> 00:29:56.135
You know what?
00:29:56.135 --> 00:29:59.144
Sometimes I think your rules are silly.
00:29:59.144 --> 00:30:01.941
Clearly, sometimes you think my rules are silly.
00:30:01.941 --> 00:30:04.067
The two of us banter a lot.
00:30:04.067 --> 00:30:12.848
I mean, you cannot persuade an all-DHD child to see things your way and you will make both of you unhappy if you try.
00:30:12.848 --> 00:30:21.125
You have to learn to accept that we have very different ways of looking at things and we're going to love each other as different people.
00:30:21.125 --> 00:30:30.824
I think that taught me a kind of playfulness and an amusedness, and I think my more recent books have a kind of amused mother tone to them.
00:30:32.076 --> 00:30:39.731
I like that idea of that that slight world weariness, just with an extra zest of glee.
00:30:39.731 --> 00:30:40.753
That sounds wonderful.
00:30:42.141 --> 00:30:47.593
And an extra zest of you know what the world can be as silly as you want it to be.
00:30:47.593 --> 00:31:01.343
I mean, I hope my books don't read as completely silly, but certainly when you're coming up with ideas, the willingness to be silly is an absolutely vital creative element, because that's where creative energy comes from.
00:31:01.343 --> 00:31:20.292
So I think yeah, I think a big thing I learned from my son is a willingness to be silly and being unselfconscious, because he is not self-conscious, he is absolutely himself at all times and there's a tremendous joyfulness in that.
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:29.986
And these are the moments where I regret having an audio podcast, because I can see that big beaming smile that you currently have right now.
00:31:30.868 --> 00:31:32.132
Oh, I'm thinking about my son.
00:31:34.421 --> 00:31:40.153
Has your son shown any interest in possibly writing, or is this something that mum does?
00:31:41.340 --> 00:31:47.332
He has a language disorder, so he certainly has an interest in, and he has a lot of.
00:31:47.332 --> 00:31:48.933
Do you know what echolalia is?
00:31:50.082 --> 00:31:51.748
I don't, but it's an amazing word in Scrabble.
00:31:51.748 --> 00:31:52.209
What's it mean?
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:55.280
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you?
00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:57.882
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you?
00:31:57.882 --> 00:32:11.410
Echolalia is the impulse to repeat exactly what you have heard for the satisfaction of saying it, or possibly the compulsion to say it, rather than because it conveys any meaning.
00:32:11.410 --> 00:32:14.011
If I say, please stop, that is driving me crazy.
00:32:14.011 --> 00:32:14.771
That doesn't work.
00:32:14.771 --> 00:32:17.993
The best I can do is say, could you repeat a different phrase now, please?
00:32:17.993 --> 00:32:20.615
Because for him it's a very strong drive.
00:32:20.615 --> 00:32:30.842
So you know he will write things for the satisfaction, but it's like CBeebies fan fiction.
00:32:30.842 --> 00:32:31.565
I would say he's a very good artist.
00:32:31.565 --> 00:32:32.267
He's a very good paper crafter.
00:32:32.267 --> 00:32:33.068
He makes little animations.
00:32:33.068 --> 00:32:36.279
I would also say he's a very creative quoter.
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:45.613
For a long time, because he was having difficulty learning language, he would use quotes to express himself because he didn't quite have the phrase himself.
00:32:45.613 --> 00:33:00.241
So, for example, a couple of favorites One time I was making him put his backpack on, which he didn't feel like doing, and when I insisted he quoted a TV show about pirates for kids and said I'll get you back for this swashbucklers.
00:33:00.241 --> 00:33:08.247
He didn't mean he was going to get me back, he was just like I'm not pleased with you right now mummy, I was like, okay, fair enough.
00:33:08.247 --> 00:33:14.829
But my absolute favorite was this show called Chuggington, which is a kind of like latter day Thomas the Tank Engine.
00:33:14.829 --> 00:33:19.911
It's about trains who are they're trainees, they're learning to do various roles.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.748
He and I were walking down the street we ran into a neighbor.
00:33:23.748 --> 00:33:25.692
She and I had a friendly chat.
00:33:25.692 --> 00:33:28.526
He went shy, he didn't feel like talking to her.
00:33:28.526 --> 00:33:34.548
When we finished we walked down the street and I said to him that's a very nice lady, you know.
00:33:34.548 --> 00:33:39.569
I think maybe next time you meet her you might like to say hello to her, because she's a very nice lady.
00:33:39.569 --> 00:33:50.912
And my son, absolutely catching me at what I was trying to do, said in the exact Chuggington voice I'm fine, Stop fussing, I don't want to go to the repair shed.
00:33:50.912 --> 00:33:59.201
And I just thought, yeah, yeah, fair cop, I was trying to take you to the repair shed, I was trying to change something and you know what?
00:33:59.201 --> 00:34:04.066
I'm going to drop it because you've got me fair and square on that one, what he's able to do.
00:34:04.066 --> 00:34:06.788
But what I would say is that for him, language is his second language.
00:34:06.788 --> 00:34:31.210
His first language is visual or sensory, but he's always going to speak English as if he learned it as an adult, I think, but you can be very creative within that.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.088
It's clear to see where that spark of inventiveness comes from.
00:34:34.088 --> 00:34:40.684
One very quick last thing that I'm taking from the last card, the Knight of Pentacles there is.
00:34:40.684 --> 00:34:46.827
We're talking about the idea of going at a long project for an extended period of time.
00:34:46.827 --> 00:34:51.170
When do you find the time to write around your parenting responsibilities?
00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:52.652
Do you write into the middle of the night?
00:34:52.652 --> 00:34:55.715
Is it something you do here and there in a cafe, on the bus?
00:34:56.335 --> 00:35:07.880
I do it when he's at school, basically, and I mean I also do freelance writing projects, just, you know, to make extra money under a pen name or under several pen names.
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.527
I do it when he's at school.
00:35:10.527 --> 00:35:16.427
And I mean in terms of long-term writing projects, writing a novel is a long-term writing project in and of itself.
00:35:16.427 --> 00:35:18.851
It's a big feat of memory past a certain point.
00:35:18.851 --> 00:35:24.693
I think of it as like playing chess against yourself.
00:35:24.693 --> 00:35:45.454
In the beginning of it, you have to set up the pieces such that you can launch a good attack on the story and then finally you get to the end game where suddenly now you are playing against your former self and you're trying to beat the game that you've laid out.
00:35:46.161 --> 00:36:02.880
I mean, some people are planners and some people are improvisers, and I am absolutely an improviser and this kind of means there's an endurance project in every day not going okay, I'm just an idiot, I do not know what I'm doing.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:16.998
Um, because if you are an improviser, the challenge is to sit down every day, knowing you don't know what you're doing, and do it until you finally figure it out yeah, that's uh.
00:36:17.498 --> 00:36:21.262
I'm just trying to think of what I would do in your shoes, and hats off to you.
00:36:21.262 --> 00:36:34.603
I can't imagine how it must be to maintain an entire world or the lore that's attached to that world, and then the characters that are attached to that world, and there is just another plane of existence.
00:36:34.985 --> 00:36:35.666
How do you do it?
00:36:35.666 --> 00:36:38.740
Well, I mean the guy for books in particular, I would.
00:36:38.740 --> 00:36:43.208
It's not very dignified, but I would by now describe those characters as imaginary friends.
00:36:43.208 --> 00:36:48.206
You know, I and I think the thing is in an imaginary world you can.
00:36:48.206 --> 00:36:52.681
You can give yourself things that the world does not give you.
00:36:53.342 --> 00:36:57.188
So, for example, I believe in writing happy endings.
00:36:57.188 --> 00:37:03.887
I, you know people can, partly because it's narratively fun to contrive, it's an interesting challenge.
00:37:03.887 --> 00:37:07.782
But also I just kind of feel you know what the world's hard enough.
00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:13.193
You know, when I was young and carefree I would read sad endings.
00:37:13.193 --> 00:37:30.112
But now I just feel you know what, there is a virtue in cheering people up, because if people have to go out into the world and fight for what's right, keeping your strength up with fiction, and the thing is also something that cheers you up does not have to be light and insubstantial, it can be.
00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:37.367
And if people like reading I remember a friend calling a book that she read like cappuccino froth and she said this as a virtue.
00:37:37.367 --> 00:37:43.887
And if people like cappuccino froth and she said this like as a virtue, and you know people like cappuccino froth, great, you know, absolutely it.
00:37:43.887 --> 00:37:45.088
You know, if it sparks joy, enjoy it.
00:37:45.088 --> 00:37:50.766
But happy stories, they don't have to be less meaningful because they're not sad.
00:37:50.766 --> 00:37:53.960
I feel that there's a certain like determination not to give up.
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:54.742
That goes with writing happy endings.
00:37:54.742 --> 00:37:55.867
Well, kit whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne.
00:37:55.887 --> 00:37:57.592
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings.
00:37:57.592 --> 00:37:59.519
Well, kit Whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:04.125
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings and have to say thank you.
00:38:04.125 --> 00:38:04.788
A bottle of water to you.
00:38:04.788 --> 00:38:07.766
Thank you so much for joining us on Tarot Interviews today.
00:38:07.766 --> 00:38:09.090
Absolute pleasure.
00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:09.811
Thank you for having me.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:20.983
That was Kit Whitfield in Tarot Interviews, bringing us into a world where fantasy doesn't escape reality but reframes it with clarity, compassion and just the right hint of strangeness.
00:38:20.983 --> 00:38:26.724
You can find her novels where books are sold, including Bareback in Great Waters and the Guyford series.
00:38:26.724 --> 00:38:29.871
Be sure to follow the link in the episode description for more of her work.
00:38:29.871 --> 00:38:34.623
And, as always, thank you for listening and join me, Fin, for the next episode.
00:00:19.391 --> 00:00:30.922
Tarot Interviews Today.
00:00:30.922 --> 00:00:38.674
In Tarot Interviews with Fin this week, we welcome a writer whose work reshapes the boundaries of fantasy, folklore and the human condition.
00:00:38.674 --> 00:00:49.149
Kit Whitfield is the acclaimed author of Bareback, published in the US as Benighted, a novel that reimagines the werewolf myth through the lens of institutional power and marginalisation.
00:00:49.149 --> 00:00:57.664
A second novel, in Great Waters, an audacious alternate history of merfolk and monarchy, earned a shortlist nomination for the World Fantasy Award.
00:00:57.664 --> 00:01:16.471
More recently, kit has enchanted readers with the Guyford series, beginning with the In in the heart of hidden things and continuing with in all of the hollow of the sky, weaving tales of changelings, kindness and uncanny Englishness, with a folkloric warmth that's rare in modern fantasy.
00:01:16.471 --> 00:01:19.981
Kit's pulling three cards from the deck today.
00:01:19.981 --> 00:01:21.364
Let's find out what they are.
00:01:21.364 --> 00:01:23.710
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
00:01:23.710 --> 00:01:26.046
Kit Whitfield, what kind of a day are you having today?
00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:27.444
I'm good, thank you.
00:01:27.444 --> 00:01:32.231
I'm really interested in how this is going to go, because this is my first tarot reading.
00:01:32.231 --> 00:01:38.870
I've always been interested and I think it's going to be a lot of fun, but you may have to expect some stupid questions from me.
00:01:39.260 --> 00:01:48.287
I'm here to guide you through it and I'm just grateful that you saw a strange man on I think it was Bluesky, who has a podcast about tarot cards who said, do you want to be on the show?
00:01:48.287 --> 00:01:55.391
And you're like, yeah, why not, let's do this like yeah, that sounds like so much fun well, bless you.
00:01:55.590 --> 00:01:57.320
The deck of cards is in my hand right now.
00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:08.364
We're using the Rider Waite Smith today, as always, and before I start pulling cards out one by one, we may get major, we may get minor arcana, and I'll guide you through what all of those mean.
00:02:08.364 --> 00:02:13.087
Are there any particular cards that you have had more of an interest in than others?
00:02:13.087 --> 00:02:15.395
Have you seen anything in popular culture and gone?
00:02:15.395 --> 00:02:16.462
What does that mean?
00:02:16.462 --> 00:02:17.645
I'm curious.
00:02:17.966 --> 00:02:32.701
I know that death is supposed to be a good card, but beyond that I'm curious and I'm going to admit now that I don't know what any of the suits mean okay, again, happy to guide you through all of this, in fact, if it helps illustrate the cards a little better.
00:02:32.741 --> 00:02:45.868
Of course you'll be able to see the pictures themselves, but we recently, at tarot interviews, made a series of playlists for each and every card major arcana, minor arcana and married that to a particular song that we quite like.
00:02:45.868 --> 00:02:59.570
We are rather biased in those song choices, so if there's a particular card that we pull out that you're not sure about, I'd be able to tell you oh, I don't know the two of swords that is represented by, under Pressure, by Queen and David Bowie.
00:02:59.570 --> 00:03:05.560
And then immediately I get the vibe Okay, so the cards are in my hand Now.
00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:14.027
They have been riffle shuffled 10 times to completely randomize them no chicanery, no nonsense, and I'd like you to tell me when to stop.
00:03:18.401 --> 00:03:19.306
Oh, he looks fun.
00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:23.727
And you have there the Page of Cups Out of interest, the Page of Cups.
00:03:23.727 --> 00:03:26.086
This may be the first time you've seen this.
00:03:27.401 --> 00:03:29.048
It is actually Okay.
00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:31.507
What vibes do you get immediately?
00:03:31.507 --> 00:03:32.765
What do the colours say?
00:03:32.765 --> 00:03:34.867
What does the pose represent to you?
00:03:35.860 --> 00:03:40.004
Intuitively I would say playful, Okay Is this wildly wrong.
00:03:40.567 --> 00:03:40.907
No, no, no.
00:03:40.907 --> 00:03:41.280
I mean.
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:46.670
The Page of Cups often represents hope, inspiration, possibly immaturity.
00:03:46.670 --> 00:03:47.774
This is a card that you want.
00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:55.693
Well, I'm in the middle of starting a new book, so inspiration is absolutely a good sign for me.
00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:59.050
And cups are always the suit of the heart.
00:03:59.050 --> 00:04:10.229
Of course you'd see that in a deck of playing cards represented by the hearts themselves, but the Page of Cups, it brings tender-hearted, imaginative energy.
00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:17.096
It's often the arrival of an unexpected message, creative opportunity, an emotional opening, that type of thing.
00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:21.302
Well creative opportunity sounds brilliant.
00:04:21.302 --> 00:04:26.000
I've got to say I don't know if you're familiar with the artist Dodie, if you've heard any of Dodie's music at all.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:31.860
In the playlist that we have, the Cups playlist, which is at tarotinterviewscom forward slash cups.
00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:36.290
This card is represented by the song Human by Dodie.
00:04:36.290 --> 00:04:54.406
If you haven't heard it, it is a wonderful, heartfelt, quite delicate song, but that kind of gives you an idea of what this card is about so I will be listening to it shortly right, let me think of a question I should also warn you, I'm really ignorant about music, so, um not.
00:04:54.447 --> 00:05:04.062
So I may be doing some looking up after this of course, if you check out the playlist and there's one for the major arcana, one for all of the suits, might give you a slightly better understanding.
00:05:04.062 --> 00:05:05.685
But uh, it's, it's, it's very good track.
00:05:05.685 --> 00:05:08.348
I'm biased because I like all of those songs anyway.
00:05:08.348 --> 00:05:08.970
Page of cups.
00:05:08.970 --> 00:05:16.117
Okay, what is a surprising idea that's recently caught your curiosity that you've come up with?
00:05:16.577 --> 00:05:28.052
Recently I have been looking into I'm I'm starting a new writing project and I'm playing around with the idea of spiritualism, so I've just uh, finished reading an enormous long book at the subject.
00:05:28.052 --> 00:05:31.249
So yeah, that's most of the books that I've written.
00:05:31.249 --> 00:05:39.987
Certainly the books I wrote most recently, which is the Guyford series, are set in, I would say like once upon a time.
00:05:39.987 --> 00:05:46.382
But my rule of thumb there is that I don't use any language that you couldn't find in Shakespeare, at least in the dialogue.
00:05:46.422 --> 00:06:29.704
I mean, people don't say the and thou, but I'm a big etymology nerd, so I'm always like looking up I think this word is not too modern, but I'm gonna check Smiths, who live in a village where it follows a family of talisman creators, come social workers who have to support the folks when they are plagued by the people, which is to say humans, when they're bothered by fae spirits such as, for example, fighting bramble bushes, a pig that thinks it's the Garwain poet, giant spider that feels extremely sorry for itself, a fiery black dog that eats landlords who he is a fan favorite I can't imagine why.
00:06:29.704 --> 00:06:41.752
And um, I've got a book, um on submission right now, which I I feel I will jinx if I describe, but that is also set like several centuries ago.
00:06:41.752 --> 00:06:48.252
So for me, looking into something that's still historical but a bit more modern has been a recent creative idea.
00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:58.848
So when you say spiritualism, are we talking like the kind of 1920s style spiritualism, or is the influence 1860s is what.
00:06:58.848 --> 00:07:03.930
I'm looking at Okay, Not an area I'm familiar with but what gave you this idea?
00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:28.435
I honestly can't tell you I I'm a writer who goes very much by prompts for the most part, like last year, um, I and a friend, charlotte bond, who's lovely fantasy writer, you should definitely check her out as well we did this game where another writer, stephanie burgess, and her, released a one-word prompt for drawing every day of Halloween.
00:07:28.435 --> 00:07:30.487
So we decided you know what we're going to do.
00:07:30.487 --> 00:07:41.495
We're going to write a short story every day for a month according to these prompts, which were things like toothy or moon or bad hair day or whatever.
00:07:41.495 --> 00:07:44.629
So I'm someone who writes very much in response to.
00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:49.632
There are some writers who have a million ideas lined up in their head ready to go.
00:07:49.632 --> 00:07:58.463
I envy them, but I am somebody who, if you toss me a ball, I will run with it, but I kind of need the initial prompt.
00:07:58.463 --> 00:08:00.649
So spiritualism.
00:08:00.649 --> 00:08:11.612
The truth is, I've just been like reading books of folklore, reading books of history, and I think I just tripped over this idea and thought, well, I'm going to see what I can come up with.
00:08:11.612 --> 00:08:15.971
And I'm in the stage at the moment, very much where I'm I call it making mud pies.
00:08:15.971 --> 00:08:18.509
I'm just slapping my dears together and seeing what happens.
00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:23.470
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan.
00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:24.860
The story is going somewhere.
00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:25.862
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan.
00:08:25.862 --> 00:08:26.502
The story is going somewhere.
00:08:26.502 --> 00:08:38.775
She released an album called the Dreaming, which, on the cover of the Dreaming, is a picture of Kate Bush about to kiss a man who represents Houdini and she's passing a key to Houdini with her mouth.
00:08:38.775 --> 00:08:45.980
That's pretty cool.
00:08:45.980 --> 00:09:01.168
Because of this cover, I then went on to be quite interested in Houdini and what he did, and he spent a good part of his time outside of doing magic tricks trying to debunk people like spiritualists, and I seem to remember he was kind of the James Randi of his era, Exactly exactly, and I seem to remember the quote it takes a flim flammer to know.
00:09:01.207 --> 00:09:06.639
A flim flammer really brought his work to me, flim Flammer to Noah, flim Flammer really brought his work to me.
00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:13.010
But that's the only side of spiritualism I've seen has been the basically the kind of the charlatanism of it.
00:09:13.010 --> 00:09:14.940
But have you been looking into more of the more spiritual part of that?
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:22.712
What I would say from what I've gathered and again I do not know what at this point would get into a book.
00:09:22.712 --> 00:09:28.889
I'd be writing, because the only way I write books is I write rubbish until I trip over something good, and I'm in the writing rubbish stage.
00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:36.616
But, that said, the read I get is that it was a religion like many other religions.
00:09:36.616 --> 00:09:50.708
It was not unlike, I would say, wicca today, which is to say, among other things, very much a religion that women could hold a spiritually authoritative role in, which was not the case in most religions.
00:09:50.708 --> 00:10:00.320
And I think that there was a spectrum between just straight up hoaxers who were doing stage magic, true believers.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:20.625
At the opposite end of the spectrum and in the middle, I think you've got people who did believe in what they were doing but felt that, you know, just to help the spirits along a bit or to keep the audience interested in the real stuff, it's not really cheating if I just like regurgitate a bit of muslin and call it ectoplasm, right?
00:10:20.625 --> 00:10:28.505
So I think even in true believers there was a certain amount of stage magic some of the time.
00:10:28.505 --> 00:10:34.164
But then there was also things like automatic writing, which the people doing it genuinely believed in.
00:10:34.164 --> 00:10:36.669
And yeah, so there was.
00:10:36.811 --> 00:10:45.158
There was, I'd say, quite a wide range of how people believed what they themselves were saying and how much their audiences believed it.
00:10:45.158 --> 00:10:52.121
Their audiences would range from true believers to people who were just kind of going because it seemed like a fun night out.
00:10:52.121 --> 00:11:07.986
To you know, if it was a public performance, because middle class and upper class spiritualists would have private sittings where the audiences would be known and part of their social circle and well behaved Working class ones who had to do it for a living could not vet their audience.
00:11:07.986 --> 00:11:10.962
So you could get, you know, drunks heckling you.
00:11:10.962 --> 00:11:20.618
You could get what were called spirit grabbers, people who would try to like, tackle the manifested spirit to see if it was actually just the medium in a costume.
00:11:21.019 --> 00:11:32.788
It could be quite rowdy if you had public performances you've just got me thinking as well that the, as far as I'm aware, a lot of the spiritualism when it's been its most popular tends to be after a disaster or war.
00:11:32.788 --> 00:11:40.130
So the people attending these spiritualist events, it's almost like a form of therapy before we called it therapy.
00:11:40.130 --> 00:11:58.673
It's a way of letting yes, or a way of releasing that so I can see the use there.
00:11:58.692 --> 00:12:00.073
I'd be fascinated to read more.
00:12:00.073 --> 00:12:13.053
My grandfather invaded the session, described as an irascible old gentleman that she didn't like very much, who opined that modern mathematics had it all very wrong and string theory was where it was at.
00:12:13.053 --> 00:12:22.388
And I mean it may have been cold reading, because I think many people know an irascible old gentleman and certainly when she heard that she said oh oh, that's Cormac.
00:12:22.388 --> 00:12:23.591
That's definitely Cormac.
00:12:23.591 --> 00:12:25.447
That's the most irascible old gentleman.
00:12:25.447 --> 00:12:36.525
But who knows Certainly if anybody deceased I ever knew was the sort to interrupt a spiritualist session, it would have been my grandfather.
00:12:36.525 --> 00:12:38.184
He did like attention.
00:12:38.567 --> 00:12:42.970
Okay, well, that's your first card, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down.
00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:44.990
We've got two more cards to go Stupid, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down.
00:12:44.942 --> 00:12:45.881
We've got two more cards to go.
00:12:45.881 --> 00:12:48.299
Stupid question what's the difference between the major and the minor arcana?
00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:51.210
The easy way of saying that is, the major arcana are the famous ones.
00:12:51.210 --> 00:12:53.828
The minor arcana are the ones that look a bit like playing cards.
00:12:53.828 --> 00:12:58.471
I mean, of course, the minor arcana are separated into the suits that you mentioned.
00:12:58.471 --> 00:13:09.155
Each one of those, depending on your interpretation, can represent different elements, can represent different kind of parts of the human experience, with the major arcana being spirit, for example.
00:13:09.155 --> 00:13:13.357
So you might attribute I don't know very kind of basic things, like you might say.
00:13:13.357 --> 00:13:16.966
The ones which are represented by fire are the cards of inspiration.
00:13:16.966 --> 00:13:21.360
The cups which represent water are the cards of deep emotions.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.745
You could take those kind of readings from them, but it's all part of the toolkit.
00:13:24.745 --> 00:13:35.602
So the minor arcana are the ones that, to be honest, are the ones I check first when I buy a new deck, because, well, you get most often for a start because there's only 22 major arcana cards in a 78 card deck.
00:13:35.883 --> 00:13:51.160
So I like the artwork on the minor arcana to be good and often people kind of just sort of it's the area where people scamp, because let me guess they will not be the cards that are shown on the marketing material, right, Exactly.
00:13:51.402 --> 00:14:01.288
The ones that are going to be shown are the magician, the fool, you know, the famous ones, rarely things like the hanged man, which is one of my favourite cards, or death, as you say, for obvious reasons.
00:14:01.288 --> 00:14:03.226
That's the difference between the two there.
00:14:03.226 --> 00:14:05.485
But after that let's go.
00:14:05.485 --> 00:14:09.668
Now, one of them really wanted to say hello.
00:14:09.668 --> 00:14:10.684
Let's place that one back.
00:14:10.684 --> 00:14:12.426
It's trying to announce itself there.
00:14:12.426 --> 00:14:16.803
Okay, right, so say stop whenever you're ready.
00:14:20.797 --> 00:14:21.640
Queen of Swords.
00:14:22.274 --> 00:14:23.879
Another minor arcana there.
00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.066
Okay, what does the Queen of Swords say to you?
00:14:26.774 --> 00:14:29.481
I was talking about Boudicca this morning.
00:14:29.481 --> 00:14:31.366
That's what comes to my mind right now.
00:14:32.697 --> 00:14:33.562
What were you saying about Boudicca?
00:14:34.056 --> 00:14:35.057
Bit of crip humour.
00:14:35.057 --> 00:14:36.581
I walk with a rollator.
00:14:36.581 --> 00:14:43.182
That's like a seat that you wheel along because a few years ago I decided I was going to get so fit and I injured my back.
00:14:43.182 --> 00:14:55.298
So now I walk with a rollator and I was joking about putting knives on the wheels and rolling along like Boudicca, because when you use a mobility aid you make a lot of jokes about it.
00:14:55.298 --> 00:15:00.900
It's how you get through the day and in fact I have blinged up my rollator.
00:15:00.900 --> 00:15:04.943
It's got like a knitted log with leaves and a slug across the bar.
00:15:05.464 --> 00:15:10.687
It's got crocheted toadstool caps for its cogs.
00:15:10.687 --> 00:15:12.328
It's got a velvet seat.
00:15:12.328 --> 00:15:18.253
When I'm meeting new people I say you can find me by I'm the one with the Goblin Corps rollator.
00:15:18.253 --> 00:15:21.705
So this morning I was thinking I might Boudica up my rollator.
00:15:21.705 --> 00:15:30.049
So history and empowerment and laughing at yourself would be the moods I had about that.
00:15:30.315 --> 00:15:38.967
The Queen of Swords is a card of clear perception, of intellect, of independence, of taking no nonsense, suffering no fools.
00:15:38.967 --> 00:15:45.831
It represents razor sharp clarity, speaking the truth even if people don't want to hear that truth.
00:15:45.831 --> 00:15:47.437
It's a card of mature wisdom.
00:15:47.437 --> 00:15:54.900
Going back to my songs that I was mentioning before, this one is represented by Paris Paloma's Labour in our playlist, and if you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
00:15:54.900 --> 00:15:55.383
It is an incredible one.
00:15:55.383 --> 00:15:56.245
I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in.
00:15:56.245 --> 00:15:58.893
Not, you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
00:15:58.893 --> 00:15:59.816
It is an incredible one.
00:15:59.816 --> 00:16:06.058
I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in Nottingham in the last year and it was one of the best gigs that I've been to for a long time.
00:16:06.058 --> 00:16:07.261
It was incredible.
00:16:07.261 --> 00:16:12.360
Yes, it's a song that takes one hefty swipe at patriarchy, queen of Swords.
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:21.524
So the question for you about this one is how do you use clarity and critique in your editing process?
00:16:22.285 --> 00:16:27.322
Well, I would say that the editing process for me is two things.
00:16:27.322 --> 00:16:33.278
There is and I think I can see both of them in the light of the Queen of Swords vibe.
00:16:33.278 --> 00:16:45.644
On the one hand, I feel like I need to listen to my own ear, and I'm a writer who I'm physically very clumsy, but whenever I talk about editing, suddenly my language gets very physical.
00:16:45.644 --> 00:16:50.140
I talk about rhythm, I talk about balance, I talk about beat.
00:16:50.140 --> 00:17:09.316
I am a terrible dancer, but I talk about writing like I talk about choreography, I think, having a clear sense of the pulse of a sentence, which probably I'm the only one who gets that worked up about, but that's something that I need to hear clearly.
00:17:09.316 --> 00:17:21.788
On the other hand, when you're being edited, you need to be a grown-up about it, which means somebody may criticize something and you go, ah no, but then you go no, hang on a second, hang on a second.
00:17:22.255 --> 00:17:39.928
You know be aggrieved about this, and the rule I have for myself is if somebody misinterpreted a sentence I wrote, they may be taking away the wrong message from it, but that's on me for writing a sentence that was not impossible to misinterpret.
00:17:39.928 --> 00:17:47.862
I will go back and I'll change it, and usually my editors have had to be quite patient because I am very particular in editing.
00:17:47.862 --> 00:18:02.859
But my rule of thumb with myself is if somebody wants a sentence changed, I will change it, but I want to be the one who changes it myself because I want to bring it back into a state of balance.
00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:11.666
So if you take out a two-syllable word and replace it with a one-syllable word, I'll be like, okay, we can take that word out, but I'm choosing a different synonym.
00:18:12.315 --> 00:18:15.605
Is that because somebody's introduced discord into your symphony?
00:18:15.954 --> 00:18:18.701
Essentially, yes, it feels wrong.
00:18:18.701 --> 00:18:25.335
It doesn't balance right in my hand, Like I I'm going to call it a throwing knife, since we're talking swords, that you know.
00:18:25.335 --> 00:18:29.807
If the throwing knife does not balance right in my hand, I cannot make it hit the target.
00:18:29.807 --> 00:18:38.202
So, yes, I think it's a question of maturity and grace, in that you have to be polite to anybody who's editing you, and I have edited myself.
00:18:38.202 --> 00:18:39.306
It is a difficult job.
00:18:39.306 --> 00:18:52.694
I have a tremendous respect for editors and so, yeah, it's a question of balancing being not a complete pain in the neck to work with and at the same time, but I want to make sure that we're both happy with it.
00:18:53.517 --> 00:18:54.298
That makes a lot of sense.
00:18:54.298 --> 00:18:56.623
This is not a process that I've ever been through.
00:18:56.623 --> 00:19:02.001
Most of my scribblings just only get to the notepad and I say notepad generously.
00:19:02.001 --> 00:19:05.656
They tend to get onto the back of a bus ticket, onto a beer mat.
00:19:05.656 --> 00:19:15.664
Spontaneous inspiration yeah, I find almost any surface other than your regular blank page to be the perfect medium, but it never goes beyond that.
00:19:15.664 --> 00:19:23.965
So the idea of somebody looking at something, refining it, taking it down to its best possible parts to me that is true magic.
00:19:24.795 --> 00:19:29.487
I'll tell you, it's an absolute rule of thumb Never give a writer a beautiful notebook.
00:19:29.487 --> 00:19:32.580
An artist who draws, yeah, they'll use it.
00:19:32.580 --> 00:19:38.318
A writer will get blocked because they will just feel the pressure of living up to this notebook.
00:19:38.318 --> 00:19:43.929
Every good result I've had using a notebook has been from a really tatty, cheap, bashed up one.
00:19:43.929 --> 00:19:51.886
You know, the tattier they are, the more sorry I am when they get filled up because the more I just feel oh, that was just such an unthreatening notebook.
00:19:51.886 --> 00:20:00.945
Often these days, my notes, I will just email myself something off a device, not least because I have terrible, terrible handwriting.
00:20:00.945 --> 00:20:11.990
I, you know, I am a writer in the sense that I use language, in the sense of a fine penman's hand that I lack.
00:20:12.734 --> 00:20:22.190
I can imagine you with one of those jewelers, spy glasses peering at this arcane script which you jotted down an hour before pretty much.
00:20:22.355 --> 00:20:28.257
Yes, I you know give me a moment to forget and I can't always read my own handwriting that I'm a pretty good typist.
00:20:28.257 --> 00:20:32.986
That will have to suffice right card number three.
00:20:33.326 --> 00:20:35.455
Hey, I will shuffle in the position.
00:20:35.455 --> 00:20:40.021
Keep shuffling, yep, and wait for that universe to boop you.
00:20:42.384 --> 00:20:42.726
Stop.
00:20:46.310 --> 00:20:47.858
Huh, the Knight of Pentacles.
00:20:47.858 --> 00:20:51.734
Oh scary, it's one that doesn't get enough praise, I think.
00:20:51.734 --> 00:20:53.682
Now again, what are your vibes from this?
00:20:53.682 --> 00:20:55.806
From the colour, from what's going on in the picture?
00:20:55.806 --> 00:20:56.489
What is it Soti?
00:20:58.096 --> 00:21:05.940
Oh, I'm getting a very Arthurian vibe because I'm a fan of the poem Garwain and the Green Knight.
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:14.642
That's what I think of when I see a five-pointed star inside of a circle, but there's something a little doom-laden about the extremely yellow sky.
00:21:14.642 --> 00:21:15.786
He's against.
00:21:17.115 --> 00:21:22.657
Can you just remind me about the story of was it, gawain and the Green Knight Very quickly.
00:21:22.657 --> 00:21:23.643
What happens in that story?
00:21:24.516 --> 00:21:28.386
Oh well, it's Christmas at King Arthur's Court.
00:21:28.386 --> 00:21:33.134
There is festivity, there is feasting, there is joking, there is partying.
00:21:33.134 --> 00:21:54.946
And just as everybody is really into it, into the hall rides a gigantic man wreathed in holly on a massive steed that, like himself, is green down to the last pore, and he says to Arthur, I have a Christmas New Year game for you to play.
00:21:54.946 --> 00:21:55.848
It's a challenge.
00:21:55.848 --> 00:22:03.980
I will kneel and you, or one of your knights, whoever feels brave enough, can take one stroke against me.
00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:05.823
I will not resist.
00:22:05.823 --> 00:22:15.542
And then, a year from now, I ask that whoever did that to me comes to me and I will give him back whatever he gave to me.
00:22:16.304 --> 00:22:29.454
Everybody is a little nervous about this, because this is a green, enormous, gigantic, unsettling, clearly uncanny man in their midst and there's got to be a catch here.
00:22:29.454 --> 00:22:36.938
Somehow, the Green Knight jeers at their cowardice and Arthur leaps up and says well, fine, then I will.
00:22:36.938 --> 00:22:49.779
But at this point Sir Garwain, who is known as the most courteous and tactful of all the knights, stands up and says no, no, my lord uncle, this is completely beneath you, I'm rubbish.
00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.968
He is not rubbish, he's the best knight in the court.
00:22:52.968 --> 00:22:53.836
But he says you know what?
00:22:53.836 --> 00:23:03.261
Everybody knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable, knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable.
00:23:03.281 --> 00:23:03.743
My lord, let me do this.
00:23:03.743 --> 00:23:09.019
So he goes up and he takes a swing at the green knight and he knocks his head clear from his shoulders and it rolls across the floor.
00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:17.041
The green knight stands up, picks it up, tucks it under his arm and the head says to him I will see you in a year then.
00:23:17.041 --> 00:23:20.848
And he rides out and thus the tale begins.
00:23:20.848 --> 00:23:32.703
Garwain has a pentacle in his shield which is a five-pointed star, which is all about how he is devoted to the many five-fold Christian virtues.
00:23:32.703 --> 00:23:38.967
But towards the end of the story he reveals himself not quite such a perfect knight as he aspired to be.
00:23:39.515 --> 00:23:39.977
A couple of things.
00:23:39.977 --> 00:23:41.983
First of all, I loved your green knight voice.
00:23:41.983 --> 00:23:42.776
Thanks.
00:23:42.776 --> 00:23:46.405
You had to come from nowhere In my imagination as you were describing that story.
00:23:46.405 --> 00:23:51.548
For some reason, gawain in my head looks just like Mark Owen from Take that.
00:23:51.548 --> 00:23:54.163
He's got that kind of pretty boy vibe, yeah.
00:23:55.035 --> 00:23:56.957
He's certainly considered a heartthrob.
00:23:56.957 --> 00:24:08.404
He gets into trouble later because he is staying at the manor of a generous knight called Ser Bersilak and the lady of the manor thinks that he's quite the fine fellow, garwain.
00:24:08.404 --> 00:24:23.857
And while Garwain is resting, while her husband's off hunting, she spends three days making some very, very serious attempts to get into that armor, very serious attempts to get into that armor.
00:24:23.857 --> 00:24:27.048
And uh, garwain does not wish to cuckold his host, especially since at this point in the tale, another agreement has been made.
00:24:27.048 --> 00:24:37.099
His host has said to him you know what, mate, you rest up in bed and I'm gonna go hunting and at the end of the day we will swap whatever we gained during the day.
00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:45.241
So so, whatever Garwain gets from this lady, according to his oath he is going to have to hand over to her husband at the end of the day.
00:24:45.241 --> 00:24:49.864
So for more than one reason he feels he's got to say no.
00:24:49.864 --> 00:24:57.203
But she is very determined and turning her down politely becomes very discreet battle of its own kind.
00:24:57.684 --> 00:24:58.025
Let's see.
00:24:58.025 --> 00:25:01.742
I thought that story was going to end with a and why not both ending?
00:25:01.742 --> 00:25:03.980
Maybe that's the fanfic.
00:25:04.474 --> 00:25:06.763
Well, there are many queer readings of it.
00:25:06.763 --> 00:25:15.226
There's a very good YouTube video by, I think, the YouTuber Kat Rowe, who talks about the queer history of the Green Knight story.
00:25:15.226 --> 00:25:22.699
It's in Middle English so you may need to get one with a parallel translation and it's also.
00:25:22.699 --> 00:25:35.977
It's a rather wonderful form of verse in which, rather than rhyming, for the most part the scheme is every line contains four stressed syllables, at least three of which alliterate.
00:25:35.977 --> 00:25:38.999
So it's lines like three of which alliterate.
00:25:38.999 --> 00:25:44.523
So it's lines like the greener canicht on the prune graderli him brasses, or the gormer on kringlet under him glide.
00:25:44.523 --> 00:25:59.855
And, like I said, I'm a bit of an etymology geek so I love this kind of thing which, like in the second of my two Guyford books you remember I mentioned, there's a pig that thinks it's the Gawain poet.
00:25:59.855 --> 00:26:06.156
I nicked the I'm going to talk in alliterative verse just because I thought that would just be really, really fun to play with and it really was.
00:26:06.979 --> 00:26:10.988
I admire that crystalline precision that you have with language there.
00:26:10.988 --> 00:26:18.237
Okay, well, the Knight Pentacles he's a steady, loyal, deeply committed chap, dedicated to the task at hand.
00:26:18.237 --> 00:26:23.608
He represents persistence and hard work, a methodical approach to building something lasting.
00:26:23.608 --> 00:26:28.446
And he's not like the flashier of a knight he doesn't rush, he plans, he prepares.
00:26:28.446 --> 00:26:30.219
He's like Sir Tortoise.
00:26:30.219 --> 00:26:33.846
Okay, knight of Pentacles, he's a mensch.
00:26:33.846 --> 00:26:38.855
How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project?
00:26:40.442 --> 00:26:42.753
How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project?
00:26:42.753 --> 00:26:45.434
I think?
00:26:45.434 --> 00:26:46.778
Well, I would say a life lesson that I have to live by.
00:26:46.778 --> 00:26:55.275
I have a kid with special needs and you do not last in this life if you can't marathon instead of sprint, I think.
00:26:55.275 --> 00:27:01.861
I mean, I write folk fantasy and anybody who likes fantasy almost certainly likes the books of Terry Pratchett.
00:27:01.861 --> 00:27:14.711
There is a line in one of them, one of the Witches series, I think, which I kind of frequently remind myself of, which is the hard way is pretty hard, but not so hard as the easy way.
00:27:14.711 --> 00:27:16.452
I really agree with that.
00:27:16.452 --> 00:27:18.219
Do you know which book that's from?
00:27:18.219 --> 00:27:19.001
From Terry Pratchett?
00:27:19.001 --> 00:27:28.060
I think it's Lords and Ladies, which is in fact the one that talks about, where he talks about the myth of cold iron.
00:27:28.060 --> 00:27:29.604
I think it's Lords and Ladies.
00:27:29.604 --> 00:27:31.667
I know it's Granny Weatherwax who says it.
00:27:32.096 --> 00:27:34.038
So you mentioned your child.
00:27:34.038 --> 00:27:36.122
How have you managed to work around?
00:27:36.122 --> 00:27:44.214
You know challenges and low energy days and anything that life has had to bring up to bear against you when you try to write.
00:27:44.535 --> 00:27:54.510
What I would say primarily I mean, apart from the fact that I mean when he was very little, I just didn't have time, which is why there is a big gap between my second and my third book hitting the market.
00:27:54.510 --> 00:28:04.303
What he has taught me is a sense of humor, not just I don't mean I just sit there and laugh at him, because that would be rotten of me, but he's a very funny person.
00:28:04.303 --> 00:28:14.096
He's a very playful, energetic, joyful kind of person and because he's autistic with ADHD, he has a different set of priorities to me.
00:28:14.096 --> 00:28:21.636
So in his toddlerhood was very important, you know, I would be continually discovering.
00:28:21.737 --> 00:28:45.487
Apparently there's a rule that the toothpaste has to go on the left hand side of the sink, which is not a rule that I thought mattered, but in fact that turned into an inspiration, because when I started the guyford series, my inspiration for that was um, there's a tale about a church in the isle of man, I believe, which has no roof, and the story goes that they built it, they added a roof.
00:28:45.487 --> 00:28:47.999
Overnight, the fairies knocked the roof down.
00:28:47.999 --> 00:28:50.184
So the next day they built another roof.
00:28:50.184 --> 00:29:11.882
That night the fairies knocked it down again, and this went back and forth for some time until they took the point and now there only stands four walls and a field and an unfinished church Because, as the narrator, it was on a kid's program saying nobody knows why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof and I thought well, obviously I know why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof.
00:29:12.242 --> 00:29:15.198
It's because the first time they saw it it had no roof.
00:29:15.198 --> 00:29:22.910
So as far as they were concerned, it shouldn't have a roof, because if it was going to have a roof it would have a roof, but it didn't have a roof, so it shouldn't have a roof.
00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:25.058
And I then started thinking you know what?
00:29:25.058 --> 00:29:38.259
I live in a home where there is more than one way of thinking about what's important, and if you live together as a loving family, you have to learn to see the funny side of each other.
00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:44.769
And so that in the end turns into an inspiration.
00:29:44.769 --> 00:29:47.153
Because I think it took.
00:29:47.292 --> 00:29:55.409
I think my writing became more comical after my son was born, because sometimes you just have to acknowledge.
00:29:55.409 --> 00:29:56.135
You know what?
00:29:56.135 --> 00:29:59.144
Sometimes I think your rules are silly.
00:29:59.144 --> 00:30:01.941
Clearly, sometimes you think my rules are silly.
00:30:01.941 --> 00:30:04.067
The two of us banter a lot.
00:30:04.067 --> 00:30:12.848
I mean, you cannot persuade an all-DHD child to see things your way and you will make both of you unhappy if you try.
00:30:12.848 --> 00:30:21.125
You have to learn to accept that we have very different ways of looking at things and we're going to love each other as different people.
00:30:21.125 --> 00:30:30.824
I think that taught me a kind of playfulness and an amusedness, and I think my more recent books have a kind of amused mother tone to them.
00:30:32.076 --> 00:30:39.731
I like that idea of that that slight world weariness, just with an extra zest of glee.
00:30:39.731 --> 00:30:40.753
That sounds wonderful.
00:30:42.141 --> 00:30:47.593
And an extra zest of you know what the world can be as silly as you want it to be.
00:30:47.593 --> 00:31:01.343
I mean, I hope my books don't read as completely silly, but certainly when you're coming up with ideas, the willingness to be silly is an absolutely vital creative element, because that's where creative energy comes from.
00:31:01.343 --> 00:31:20.292
So I think yeah, I think a big thing I learned from my son is a willingness to be silly and being unselfconscious, because he is not self-conscious, he is absolutely himself at all times and there's a tremendous joyfulness in that.
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:29.986
And these are the moments where I regret having an audio podcast, because I can see that big beaming smile that you currently have right now.
00:31:30.868 --> 00:31:32.132
Oh, I'm thinking about my son.
00:31:34.421 --> 00:31:40.153
Has your son shown any interest in possibly writing, or is this something that mum does?
00:31:41.340 --> 00:31:47.332
He has a language disorder, so he certainly has an interest in, and he has a lot of.
00:31:47.332 --> 00:31:48.933
Do you know what echolalia is?
00:31:50.082 --> 00:31:51.748
I don't, but it's an amazing word in Scrabble.
00:31:51.748 --> 00:31:52.209
What's it mean?
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:55.280
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you?
00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:57.882
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you?
00:31:57.882 --> 00:32:11.410
Echolalia is the impulse to repeat exactly what you have heard for the satisfaction of saying it, or possibly the compulsion to say it, rather than because it conveys any meaning.
00:32:11.410 --> 00:32:14.011
If I say, please stop, that is driving me crazy.
00:32:14.011 --> 00:32:14.771
That doesn't work.
00:32:14.771 --> 00:32:17.993
The best I can do is say, could you repeat a different phrase now, please?
00:32:17.993 --> 00:32:20.615
Because for him it's a very strong drive.
00:32:20.615 --> 00:32:30.842
So you know he will write things for the satisfaction, but it's like CBeebies fan fiction.
00:32:30.842 --> 00:32:31.565
I would say he's a very good artist.
00:32:31.565 --> 00:32:32.267
He's a very good paper crafter.
00:32:32.267 --> 00:32:33.068
He makes little animations.
00:32:33.068 --> 00:32:36.279
I would also say he's a very creative quoter.
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:45.613
For a long time, because he was having difficulty learning language, he would use quotes to express himself because he didn't quite have the phrase himself.
00:32:45.613 --> 00:33:00.241
So, for example, a couple of favorites One time I was making him put his backpack on, which he didn't feel like doing, and when I insisted he quoted a TV show about pirates for kids and said I'll get you back for this swashbucklers.
00:33:00.241 --> 00:33:08.247
He didn't mean he was going to get me back, he was just like I'm not pleased with you right now mummy, I was like, okay, fair enough.
00:33:08.247 --> 00:33:14.829
But my absolute favorite was this show called Chuggington, which is a kind of like latter day Thomas the Tank Engine.
00:33:14.829 --> 00:33:19.911
It's about trains who are they're trainees, they're learning to do various roles.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.748
He and I were walking down the street we ran into a neighbor.
00:33:23.748 --> 00:33:25.692
She and I had a friendly chat.
00:33:25.692 --> 00:33:28.526
He went shy, he didn't feel like talking to her.
00:33:28.526 --> 00:33:34.548
When we finished we walked down the street and I said to him that's a very nice lady, you know.
00:33:34.548 --> 00:33:39.569
I think maybe next time you meet her you might like to say hello to her, because she's a very nice lady.
00:33:39.569 --> 00:33:50.912
And my son, absolutely catching me at what I was trying to do, said in the exact Chuggington voice I'm fine, Stop fussing, I don't want to go to the repair shed.
00:33:50.912 --> 00:33:59.201
And I just thought, yeah, yeah, fair cop, I was trying to take you to the repair shed, I was trying to change something and you know what?
00:33:59.201 --> 00:34:04.066
I'm going to drop it because you've got me fair and square on that one, what he's able to do.
00:34:04.066 --> 00:34:06.788
But what I would say is that for him, language is his second language.
00:34:06.788 --> 00:34:31.210
His first language is visual or sensory, but he's always going to speak English as if he learned it as an adult, I think, but you can be very creative within that.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.088
It's clear to see where that spark of inventiveness comes from.
00:34:34.088 --> 00:34:40.684
One very quick last thing that I'm taking from the last card, the Knight of Pentacles there is.
00:34:40.684 --> 00:34:46.827
We're talking about the idea of going at a long project for an extended period of time.
00:34:46.827 --> 00:34:51.170
When do you find the time to write around your parenting responsibilities?
00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:52.652
Do you write into the middle of the night?
00:34:52.652 --> 00:34:55.715
Is it something you do here and there in a cafe, on the bus?
00:34:56.335 --> 00:35:07.880
I do it when he's at school, basically, and I mean I also do freelance writing projects, just, you know, to make extra money under a pen name or under several pen names.
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.527
I do it when he's at school.
00:35:10.527 --> 00:35:16.427
And I mean in terms of long-term writing projects, writing a novel is a long-term writing project in and of itself.
00:35:16.427 --> 00:35:18.851
It's a big feat of memory past a certain point.
00:35:18.851 --> 00:35:24.693
I think of it as like playing chess against yourself.
00:35:24.693 --> 00:35:45.454
In the beginning of it, you have to set up the pieces such that you can launch a good attack on the story and then finally you get to the end game where suddenly now you are playing against your former self and you're trying to beat the game that you've laid out.
00:35:46.161 --> 00:36:02.880
I mean, some people are planners and some people are improvisers, and I am absolutely an improviser and this kind of means there's an endurance project in every day not going okay, I'm just an idiot, I do not know what I'm doing.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:16.998
Um, because if you are an improviser, the challenge is to sit down every day, knowing you don't know what you're doing, and do it until you finally figure it out yeah, that's uh.
00:36:17.498 --> 00:36:21.262
I'm just trying to think of what I would do in your shoes, and hats off to you.
00:36:21.262 --> 00:36:34.603
I can't imagine how it must be to maintain an entire world or the lore that's attached to that world, and then the characters that are attached to that world, and there is just another plane of existence.
00:36:34.985 --> 00:36:35.666
How do you do it?
00:36:35.666 --> 00:36:38.740
Well, I mean the guy for books in particular, I would.
00:36:38.740 --> 00:36:43.208
It's not very dignified, but I would by now describe those characters as imaginary friends.
00:36:43.208 --> 00:36:48.206
You know, I and I think the thing is in an imaginary world you can.
00:36:48.206 --> 00:36:52.681
You can give yourself things that the world does not give you.
00:36:53.342 --> 00:36:57.188
So, for example, I believe in writing happy endings.
00:36:57.188 --> 00:37:03.887
I, you know people can, partly because it's narratively fun to contrive, it's an interesting challenge.
00:37:03.887 --> 00:37:07.782
But also I just kind of feel you know what the world's hard enough.
00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:13.193
You know, when I was young and carefree I would read sad endings.
00:37:13.193 --> 00:37:30.112
But now I just feel you know what, there is a virtue in cheering people up, because if people have to go out into the world and fight for what's right, keeping your strength up with fiction, and the thing is also something that cheers you up does not have to be light and insubstantial, it can be.
00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:37.367
And if people like reading I remember a friend calling a book that she read like cappuccino froth and she said this as a virtue.
00:37:37.367 --> 00:37:43.887
And if people like cappuccino froth and she said this like as a virtue, and you know people like cappuccino froth, great, you know, absolutely it.
00:37:43.887 --> 00:37:45.088
You know, if it sparks joy, enjoy it.
00:37:45.088 --> 00:37:50.766
But happy stories, they don't have to be less meaningful because they're not sad.
00:37:50.766 --> 00:37:53.960
I feel that there's a certain like determination not to give up.
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:54.742
That goes with writing happy endings.
00:37:54.742 --> 00:37:55.867
Well, kit whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne.
00:37:55.887 --> 00:37:57.592
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings.
00:37:57.592 --> 00:37:59.519
Well, kit Whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:04.125
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings and have to say thank you.
00:38:04.125 --> 00:38:04.788
A bottle of water to you.
00:38:04.788 --> 00:38:07.766
Thank you so much for joining us on Tarot Interviews today.
00:38:07.766 --> 00:38:09.090
Absolute pleasure.
00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:09.811
Thank you for having me.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:20.983
That was Kit Whitfield in Tarot Interviews, bringing us into a world where fantasy doesn't escape reality but reframes it with clarity, compassion and just the right hint of strangeness.
00:38:20.983 --> 00:38:26.724
You can find her novels where books are sold, including Bareback in Great Waters and the Guyford series.
00:38:26.724 --> 00:38:29.871
Be sure to follow the link in the episode description for more of her work.
00:38:29.871 --> 00:38:34.623
And, as always, thank you for listening and join me, Fin, for the next episode.
