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When you're building your dream, on the backs of other people's favors, and goodwill, you need to be fluid. You need to be grateful for what you have at the moment and take advantage of it to the best of your ability. You know it with Caged, we didn't have any time for rehearsal really. We had the performance in my mind, we had the stuff that we did in the auditions for the actors who had the smaller parts. And then we had the old script. So to me, the first performance done by an actor automatically sounds wrong, no matter how right it is. Because it's no longer in the rhythm that I performed it when I wrote it. This is something I have to be very careful of, because I know that their gut reaction isn't necessarily wrong. And Matter of fact, you could be very right, you know, but I have to re familiarize myself with the cadence choices that they've made before I can judge it fairly. Because it automatically feels to me like a mistake. Because if you're trying to replicate what you've envisioned, it automatically sounds different to me. And then when I actually watch it, I go, Wow, that's fantastic. You know, but when you're doing three takes, and you're moving on, you have to decide that very quickly,
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right. Welcome to the podcast, tapping creativity with myself, Matthew C. Temple. And each week, we're going to dive into questions and issues and inspiration around creativity and the creative process.
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Welcome to this week's episode of tapping creativity with myself, Matthew Temple, and today I am joined by writer, director and also collaborator at one time, Aaron filmin. have always just called you, Aaron filmin. But I've also joked and called you, Aaron, gentlemen, because I know that your ancestors at one point probably thought you know what we're gonna like screw with this guy. And we're always gonna move to America at some point. And we're just going to throw this random j right after the app and his name. But Aaron was born and raised in Southern California, but he attended film school at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco, and after college, moved back to LA, and began his career as a director working primarily in short form music, videos, commercials, things like that, through that experience, was able to travel a lot to meet some great people. Wonderful friendships are built loyal business partners along the way.
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And his love of genre filmmaking is actually one of the things that pushed him into his current visual style. And it turns out that it's actually that blend of that visual style along with his own inner relationship to social change, social justice, awareness through art has come together in a pretty special and unique way. And so telling stories, without limits that explore the social issues, and unexpected way has become a personal and creative mantra for him. And Whoo, with all that being said, welcome, Aaron,
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Matthew, thanks for having me. How's it going?
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It's going great.
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And especially good to be spending some time with you. As I mentioned, right at the beginning, we have collaborated together. And so I'm really excited to actually come and have this conversation with you. In part because, you know, obviously, these conversations have been piecemeal throughout, we decided we were going to work together at one point. But to actually bring awareness into this process is something that I'm really excited about. So I'm actually we just want to start with having you tell us about your most recent feature film that you made, and with a little disclaimer that it is the project that we worked together on, but tell us about just about that project so that our listeners know about it.
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Well, I recently made co wrote and directed a feature film called the shoe, and the title was later changed to caged. And cage was actually just released January 26. Here in North America with shout studios, the CO writer who I worked with James doc Mason, actually was the one who put us together which was kind of a great thing and and you know, like I've always told you outset, you know, we couldn't have done it without you and it was awesome to to get to know you, in that process. See your process and you know, kind of enter into the trenches to embark upon making the feature film together.
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It's a really interesting experience for those who haven't done it. And I, I highly recommend it definitely, it's a personal test,
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yes. And a long process as well. And that was actually one of the things that I wanted to dive in for, and that is the duration, I think it's something that's going to be interesting to people involved in the creative process, particularly those people who have ideas or dreams, but seem like they're somehow consistently thwarted along the way. And Florida doesn't necessarily mean sort of completely batted down, never to stand up again. But the creative process is a battle. And it becomes even more.
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So when you're dealing with something that's so many moving parts, like when you sat down, you write a script, it's like you, yourself, your co writer and your co writer self. But then you step into all of a sudden having people were bringing the money in someone who's operating the camera, and someone who's making sure everyone shows up and making sure those who showed up, get paid And all this.
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So I want to kind of kind of go back onto this process and just say, can you talk about the duration of this entire process?
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And the kind of what your relationship to that duration was?
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Yeah, absolutely. And I know this is this is probably abnormal. But it was what we needed to go through in order to get this project done. But for years, for getting caged from basically out of my head onto the screen, and released with a distributor four years of my life.
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Okay, and then what about the writing, let's go back on on to that how, you know, because you obviously, were living this project and doing some of the fundraising and everything you've it's an interesting thing, because the movie was written in 90 days.
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But I have a business partner at panic house films. And we intended to make another film.
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And that film was a $3 million feature, which was on the high end of low budget, and I didn't have another credit in feature films. So, you know, I was basically a risky proposition for an investor, one being a first timer to being a first timer at a budget level, which was on the high end of our budget. So we went and spent two and a half years trying to raise the money with a different combination of actors and a different combination of tax credits and a different combination of potential investors. And I was watching a featurette, on a movie with a pair of directors who did this movie called starry eyes, who ended up doing the recent Pet Cemetery. And they had said that they pivoted, they went down a road, hit a roadblock, and decided to pivot to a smaller film. And this seemed like a good idea. Even though I knew that doing that would mean, I would make a lot less money, the creature comforts within the production were going to be you know, there weren't going to be any. But I knew that doing the film was the battle, you kind of you have to pay your dues. And I think I ended up paying my dues, and music videos and commercials, and you know, every sort of art form I've worked in, and that didn't exclude me from paying my dues and features. So I rolled up my sleeves and said, let's do it this way, because I believe, just doing it, I believe you're not moving forward, you're not moving. And so we did.
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And literally every piece fell into place. Within six months, we were shooting on set we have you know, and we wrote the script. And three, we had raised some money before. So there was a little bit of money from the last production which we had gotten cleared with the investors to put into this production. And then we were raising money on the fly as we were going as well. I really recommend having all the money for your movie before you start to go to if you have to. It is a way to get it done. The thing
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that I like that you just said is that you if you're not moving forward, you're not moving and to just do it in this pivoting. And I think one of the things that happens is that creative people get really sort of fixated on an idea. And I think one of the things about the creative process that actually makes it come alive is is the way that you have to pivot. And sometimes that pivot is in what your project is.
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Sometimes that pivot is how am I going to be able to make this project and then sometimes that pivot is you're on set and all of a sudden you realize that you don't have enough money or you can't clear the certain thing or whatever it is. And so you're pivoting again and again. And so therefore, the goal that you're going towards, in some ways the the sort of the Uber goal or the over you know the arch goal as it were is the one That is so hard to maintain as as the vision when we start to think that, oh, I have to do it in this certain manner. And you were right, let that go.
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I mean, I didn't have a choice, you know what I mean? I knew the only way to be successful when you're building your dream, on the backs of other people's favors, and goodwill, is to be fluid, you really need to take advantage of what you have, need to be grateful for what you have at the moment, and take advantage of it to the best of your ability. If you have a scene that set at a mansion, but you have a shot, then you're probably in the best. It's in your best interest to figure out a way to do a rewrite. If you can't.
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Right. You know, that's, that's a hard thing to wrap your head around. But, but I my background, one of the first things I did in the industry was I worked for an agent, and I would help his clients make trailers for essentially things that they were trying to find. So I would always start with, okay, what can we shoot? What do we own? And I boiled things down to like, the things that we had at our disposal. And and it forced me into a way of thinking where I was, what is this concept? What does it promised? What is the poster for this concept? How can we start to paint a very broad brush and create these kind of tentpole images that were ultimately will sell the project. But but we weren't being we weren't getting bogged down with perfection, we weren't getting bogged down with too many details.
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It was about finding materials that we could use to create the essence of something. And, and being able to not be so precious, I think is a really valuable lesson for any creative,
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you know, what if you could just underline that six or seven times, that would be great. Not to be so precious, because when you get too precious, the idea ultimately becomes greater than the project itself. And I think that in and of itself, kills, kills creativity, because you're never going to do it perfectly.
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That's just impossible.
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It's almost impossible to see in the moment. But it's like really easy to see, in hindsight, every project is going to be a representation of where you were at that moment in your life. But, but when you're when you're hoping that that that project is going to change your life, it becomes extremely valuable. It's hard to not to become precious about it.
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Because I need this to launch me into the next stage of my creative development.
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I almost wish that every person that had a story to tell, which is basically everybody, but that it had a storytelling, they wanted to tell it, they were basically given, you know, a certain amount of money, and said, You have 15 days to do this. And every day that goes you are we're taking a little piece of your like future dreams away from you.
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Because what it did, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was you didn't give up.
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And there were times where you moved really, really really, really slowly, right? You said from from when this thing was in the can until it was released was like four years. That's I mean, independent films. That's not the most uncommon thing in the world. But it is a little bit exaggerated. For sure.
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It took this time and you're willing to to say you know what? I can't necessarily get my movie finished this moment. But if I do a little bit consistently, and I continue to work with it, eventually I will get there. Right.
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And and it's one of the things that I actually I don't have it up here right now. But this Reddit thread that drove a ton of traffic to the trailer. Like overnight, there was 250,000 views on the trailer. Yeah, that Reddit thread, actually. And I could probably even bring it up right here because I think one of the things that was so cool about that was that was like basically a wide meal. Just paraphrase was like my best friend has been in the industry for like 20 years. And he's, you know, and he's finally releasing his feature film. Yeah.
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Yeah. That's sometimes just what it takes.
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And I love that. It was wonderful to, to talk to so many people who were trying to do exactly what we had just done. You know, and I felt like it was really gratifying to feel like that I was going to maybe possibly inspire somebody to know that it's okay that it's it's super hard. Or that if you have to, you know, put your dream project on hold to do the first project that that's okay. And also, you know, like, Don't scoff at the opportunity to spend 15 days on set to make your, you know, your passion project. Like, you know, you I know you want 30 I did. But you know, like, you might be able to do it in 15.
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Or you might have to, if you're going to do it,
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exactly.
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And I think that's one of the things was so beautiful.
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So I'm going to, I'm going to compliment you for a second, and I'm asking how you do this, when you were on set, like this whole thing, you're talking about compromises, right? That's kind of a bit of the focus of our conversation, is you're compromising and compromising, and which can oftentimes be a bad word.
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But it doesn't actually have to be because as soon as you make a compromise, you're actually opening up the opportunity to do something that you would never have done otherwise. So if you say you have to shoot and 15, instead of 30 days, it means you're drawing on your creativity in order to get there. And then as a filmmaker, you have a co writer, there were four producers on the project, you as the director, it was your vision, but you also had a dp who had her ideas of what she was going to bring in. You had, you know, you had a list actor? And
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and yeah, and I don't know, say each actor comes with their own interpretation of your material, you know,
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yeah. And a list actors, as we know, always have ideas and opinions. And so there was this constant need to adjust.
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And so this question I kind of have is, since you did it, so Well, how do you actually keep your vision or keep a through line in the vision, while evolving it as it needs to evolve, and also dealing with the compromises in collaboration with team and budget restrictions, etc,
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I think you need to be to be humble, and as much that other people will have great ideas, and that's okay, that doesn't make you any less responsible for the vision. You know, so you don't have to, that's not something you have to worry about. As a matter of fact, you should be worried if you're not surrounded by people who are coming up with great ideas, right? And then, you know, too, sometimes, you have to say no, and it's okay. But you need to do it respectfully, and it will go a lot better if you can articulate yourself in a way that doesn't waste a lot of time, but also doesn't make someone feel stupid, right? It seems like, okay, because ultimately, it's about trust. Like, if you have a raise, if someone makes a suggestion, and you don't like it, and you say no, it shouldn't require anything more than that, if you're the director, but because people are confident, and creative, like it helps, you know, soften the blow to know that oh, well, it does make it does have a ripple effect, that would affect my character in a way that I hadn't thought of. And to be able to kind of foresee those ripples and express them in a respectful manner is really, really helpful.
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You know, there's the other side of that, which is that when you're the director, and you did on on caged, you didn't sleep a ton.
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Now,
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maybe an understatement, you drink a lot of coffee, whenever you could take a break, you know, went down and sucked down a cigarette. And like there was a ton of pressure on your when you're in the trenches. As we all know, in the trenches, you have this dedication to the project. But there are times where you lose some of the sort of sometimes the bigger picture right now, you know, that's one of the hallmarks of the creative process within filmmaking is that you're not doing this on your own. You're responsible, it's your vision, but you also bring other people and say, you also have to help be responsible for this project, because I can't carry this by myself, it's totally impossible.
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That's one of the pitfalls of being so fluid. You know, every other part of the process, you know, screenwriting editorial, like there may be long days in order to achieve your goals within those frameworks. But pressure is not a consideration.
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Even even though there is pressure within those environments. It's not the same kind of pressure as being on set. And knowing that just changing where you want to put the camera that you could lose the entire day, based on you know what that means to the production. Like or, you know, if, if you play too much in one scene, you run the risk of losing the scene and then you you can't afford to go back or you can't afford to go into overtime.
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And then sometimes you do something, it's amazing and it brings you an idea But you can't bring that idea to, you can't fully realize that idea because it changes things in a way. So you, you might sometimes, I mean, in the situation where you feel like you've discovered something better, I'd say, Get as much of that as you can, because you'll get ideas in post production that you can't come up with on set. But sometimes, it's unfortunate, because you want to change a lot of things because everything has becomes illuminated, because of this kernel of something that you found in the moment. But you can't, because it's going to change your plan to a point where people who are there to protect you will get really, really mad at you.
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Because you're making their job impossible.
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Oh, that sounds like like a subtle revenue mine.
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No. But it's one of the things that I like to hear you talk about it, because I do think that you did it really, really well. There were times obviously as your producer, on caged where I was frustrated.
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And when I look back on that experience, the beautiful thing was actually how you navigated knowing when to like, let go and when to hold firm. Some people maybe are just natural at that. I think for most of us, it's it's obviously a process to get there, because you didn't really really nicely, and that doesn't mean that there was never friction, but that wasn't also the point that when there's mutual respect, friction is no no longer a problematic thing.
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Yeah, it wasn't something that was highly conscious of I just felt in the moment instinctually that we didn't have enough shots, you know, and that if we didn't stay a little bit longer, we weren't going to have enough material to do the scene justice, which would be a bigger problem.
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Rather than, let's just do another tape of this, because we're kind of flooding, it's something cool, we want, you know, I mean, those are moments that you can afford to maybe give away. You don't have to give anything, but there's some moments that you have to fight for.
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Because you just don't have it if you don't have you know, your movie is on. And this is something that I I can honestly say, like from this experience is that your movie is only as good as your weakest scene.
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You know, like, and so you have to fight to, to make sure that none of them are that bad.
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And I think the other thing you kind of you bring up in that too, is and you you alluded to this earlier, when you're in the creative process, you don't really know what you have in the moment necessarily, particularly in this process. But Gosh, there was a famous Carole King song but they put on a beside of another single because the record company was like I don't think that this single is going to do very well. So we need a really strong beside on Riley that a side song ended up being such a huge hit that that this besides Aren't we all know it, but it was just buried for years. Right? So this had been a big and it was actually it wasn't it was Carole King with her one of her co writers. But my point is, is that you don't necessarily know what you have, until it's out there. In a in, there's almost like these little steps of that, particularly in the filmmaking process where you don't know what you have until you're wrapped and you're in the editing room. And you sometimes you find gems, and sometimes you find a glaring hole that you absolutely must plug.
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You know, it's funny, like and I've heard other people express this is definitely one of my personal quirks is that like, when I'm writing, I'm basically and I'm pretty sure probably most people do this, but I'm reading every line, as I write them. I'm performing them in my mind silently as I as I write it on the page. And then as I'm trying to refine the material, like I'm constantly rereading my own material, you know, I probably read my script 10,000 times, you know what I mean?
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So it through doing that, and getting to the point where I have a final product or at least final for the screenwriting process, and we're taking it to set to actually go shoot it. So you know it with cage, we didn't have any time for rehearsal, really. We had the performance in my mind. We had the stuff that we did in the auditions for the actors who are the smaller parts who audition, who weren't offer only. And then we have the old script. So to mean, the first performance done by an actor automatically sounds wrong, no matter how right it is. Because it's no longer in the rhythm that I performed it when I wrote it. This is something I have to be very careful of, because I know that their gut reaction isn't necessarily wrong. And Matter of fact, it could be very right, you know, but I have to watch The take, I have to be to re familiarize myself with the cadence choices that they've made before I can judge it fairly, because it automatically feels to me like a mistake. Because if you're trying to replicate what you've envisioned, it automatically sounds different to me. And then when I actually watch it, I go, Wow, that's fantastic. You know, but when you're doing three takes, and you're moving on, you have to decide that very quickly,
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right? Yeah, it lends to something that is presence. Right? And I, it, there's two kind of thoughts that are going on my mind, I'm curious, what you think about this is that you need to have this real presence, because there are times where you have to rewrite something on the fly, or there's times where you have to recognize that's better than what I had. Or that's really not sufficient for this moment. So it takes this presence. So that's presence on one side, and then the other side is this great need for certainty. Sometimes I almost wonder, when I think of kind of the rap that people in the film industry get sometimes directors, right, like, I need this, I need this, it's kind of almost like a brace of thing. Because you're actually dealing with something that has the opportunities for failure are every moment so great, that if you don't come up with a sense of certainty, in order to move forward, you might just kind of get blown away or are going to miss the mark or something. So it's this kind of balance between being really certain and holding your vision while also being so present in the moment. And I want to hear your how you juggle that or what you think about that?
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Well, I think certainty is essential to gain the trust of everybody around you. So it's really more of a perceptional thing. But as soon as there's a divergence between what you thought you needed and what you got, there's going to be the potential for uncertainty. That's okay. You need to prep your ass off, and throw it all away, and then let all that prep be the justification for your instincts.
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That is, that's beautiful.
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That's how I feel about it. You know what I mean? Like, if you do your homework, your instincts won't fail you. Right?
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But you can't, you can't wrestle.
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It's got to be the best it can be in the moment, regardless of how different that moment is, from what you imagined. Yeah,
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I use a similar quote from the Marines in my book, the creatives handbook. And it's that we don't rise to the occasion, we fall back on our preparation.
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Right? That's basically a paraphrasing of exactly what you just said, If I get it right.
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I was listening to an interview with Eddie Murphy yesterday. And he was saying how like, he was the first African American actor who told the white guy what to do, right. And I thought this was really interesting. And you start to think of like, he was the first African American guy who wasn't the sidekick. He was the star, you know, assuming it wasn't like a drama, then like a Sidney Poitier type of thing. Like, so he created this new genre, right? The guy who was interviewing him said, Oh, well, you know, so this is something you consciously did. He said, Absolutely not. He said, I was like the feather and Forrest Gump. You know, I was there. And then the wind took me somewhere.
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And then I landed there for a bit, and then it blew the other way. And it took me there, I was just me in that situation, trying to do the best I can, you know, and that's kind of, I feel like, you know, to some degree, that's, that's what we're both kind of saying here,
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that kind of actually leads me into, you know, knowing that you've chosen a path as a creative as an art as a creator, as an artist, as a director, how do you sort of encapsulate your process and what are sort of the some of the key things that you use to guide your process principles? I
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guess? Well, I'm not a person who, who lacks motivation. I get, like, a sense of anxiety when I'm when I'm not doing something creative. You know, I think that's partly because I feel like there's like a struggle in life, but like, my creative choices in life, have caused me to, to struggle, you know, so I want to be working as hard as I can as often as I can, because I don't want to delay any of the blame on me.
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But I also, I meant I get, I hate what I do. And I love what I do.
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Like nothing makes me feel better than hitting a home run. Nothing makes me feel more stupid than failing. But it also makes my life like super gratifying wrestling between failure and success within this thing that I bakes the years of my life go by, like, they say, like, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. You know what I mean? Like the clock of my day, like is sundown sunset, it's just a blink of an eye, you know. And I feel like that my whole life's been like that. So that I feel very, very lucky. You know, but I mean, as far as process goes, I find myself most creative. Like, very early in the morning. So I tried to do all of my creative, like, my creative work, I wake up at like, four in the morning, pretty much every day, I have a cup of coffee, and I'm doing something, you know, whether it's emails related to a production or, or was doing something by, like, you know, five o'clock in the morning, and I've worked into the late afternoon. If I'm doing a full day on something, and then I pretty much stop. You know,
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you also know when to stop? I do I do, it just stops working.
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And I say, Okay, well, that's, that's enough for me today.
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That's something that you don't necessarily get your choice about onset. You know, sometimes you shoot nights, like, that's something that I have, I struggle with, but you know, you just you just deal with it, I tried to get to a place, when it comes to ideas, I try to get to a place of nothingness. In my mind, whenever I can feel myself trying to come up with something, I always fail, every time I come up with what I consider for me to be a really good idea. I'm, you know, on a bike ride, or on the treadmill, in the shower, I can't try to come up with it, what I tend to do is watch a lot of movies and read a lot during those times. And, and that usually helps me come up with something,
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right? Yeah, it's a kind of like what I sort of see it because I'm also a bit more of the type A personality without actually creating the negative space because it's in the negative space it where there's actually so much life, you know, it's in, there's something new, the discoveries get made in the negative space, it's a little bit what you're talking about. And the other thing that's that stands out for me, and what you just shared was, you've actually found a process that works for you. It's not special, it's not the best way or the right way. But it's what works for you. And you've been willing to step into that and not be not shy away from it, or I think it should be different, right?
00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:29.609
Yeah,
00:32:29.640 --> 00:33:41.009
it's kind of, it's kind of like, doing all the prep on and then letting your instincts kind of take hold. But this is like applying that model to something that doesn't exist yet. You know, I mean, so you say you're just you're just like, ultimately, like, You're, you're waiting for inspiration to strike. So if you're taking in a lot of things that you you're ultimately passionate about, I mean, I reading the newspaper from we can do that for you, you know, being on on a reading a variety of blog posts, you know, to be more contemporary, like, have like things that I'm passionate about that as soon as like that, in concert with a really great Spotify playlist could be all I need to have, like my next best idea, you know what I mean? But it's really just creating an opportunity for yourself to become inspired. You know, so I, so I do things that inspire me, and, and trust that the idea will come. Because I always feel like I'm coming up with something
00:33:41.039 --> 00:34:21.900
right. In my experience, the bigger thing is actually taking the idea and plumbing it to its deepest depths and working it and failing through it and sort of failing upwards and by continuously, you know, engaging in the work, you know, ideas come and sometimes they don't, particularly when you're like, Okay, I need an idea now then they don't tend to stay away. But when you have it, then it's actually taking the idea into something and it's really actually the, one of the the hallmarks really of creativity, right is taking nothing and turning it into something taking an idea that just exists and nowhere and actualizing it
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:33.449
it's like the difference between a filmmaker and a creative as a script. That's, that is huge.
00:34:24.989 --> 00:34:33.449
Everyone has an idea for a movie.
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Very few people have a script.
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Yeah. And even fewer people take that into a good script. Right? Because it's right and then even fewer take that into a movie and even fewer into a good one. Because it's so dang hard.
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.280
Right?
00:34:47.309 --> 00:34:52.710
What can I say? I mean, there's 10,000 films that get shot a year and 1500 of them get distribution.
00:34:53.190 --> 00:34:59.010
Yeah, yeah. And of those 1500 how many of them actually make real money. Not too many.
00:34:59.730 --> 00:35:01.980
The They're stacked against you in every way.
00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:21.840
Yeah. Well, they odds were stacked against you, but you have done it and your feature film debut. And current most recent release, caged is available now with Eddie good eggy melora harden, Angela serapion. And available pretty much everywhere where you can stream movies.
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:24.780
And I really mean, and I couldn't have done it without you.
00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:33.960
And when it comes to the cast, so you just mentioned they all put together such special performances it was, it was really a really a pleasure to to work with them and help them with that.
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You know, and I will just say, in closing, first of all right back atcha, just the working with you. Like I said, one of the things about being on set is that any of the sort of the friction, that cut that comes with when it comes with mutual respect, and when it comes towards a mutual goal, it becomes something that's really wonderful. And I loved that so many people from that production are still sort of connected somehow. Yeah, pretty nice. And it's so cool. I guess I can post anything, but personal life, anything. And even still, a big percentage of the people that we worked with on that project are still posting, commenting, whatever. So you really did create a fantastical magical space. And within that magical space, a really special movie caged for all the listeners, we'll put a link to it in the in the show notes. And make sure you go check it out cage director and see
00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:56.429
Matt, I thought I thought that all that response was just because we only went overtime one day. Every other set i'd bet on is always been you know, you know, 18 hour days. And you know, it's I, every time I post on Facebook, no one gets back to me. So on this one we that I think we all a lot of that to you and the other producers,
00:36:56.460 --> 00:37:53.519
it was a really good team. And I think that was one of the things he did actually have real respect for everyone on the set. And it's funny you brought that about not going overtime. It is something that I've always found as a priority when I made my first movie 20 ish years ago, and we had a lot of those and then the days after, the more the way it hit morale can be really hard. And when there was that real respect that everyone needed, there's their sleep so they could come in the next day. Really refreshed. It made for a feeling of everyone felt cared for and this wonderful camaraderie and respect towards this common goal of turning your script that you co wrote with James Mason into this really special little movie. So for everyone who's listening, go check it out. Thanks for joining us. Thank you Aaron for coming and spending your time with us and sharing your insight wisdom and creativity with our audience and I look forward to making another movie
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When you're building your dream, on the backs of other people's favors, and goodwill, you need to be fluid. You need to be grateful for what you have at the moment and take advantage of it to the best of your ability. You know it with Caged, we didn't have any time for rehearsal really. We had the performance in my mind, we had the stuff that we did in the auditions for the actors who had the smaller parts. And then we had the old script. So to me, the first performance done by an actor automatically sounds wrong, no matter how right it is. Because it's no longer in the rhythm that I performed it when I wrote it. This is something I have to be very careful of, because I know that their gut reaction isn't necessarily wrong. And Matter of fact, you could be very right, you know, but I have to re familiarize myself with the cadence choices that they've made before I can judge it fairly. Because it automatically feels to me like a mistake. Because if you're trying to replicate what you've envisioned, it automatically sounds different to me. And then when I actually watch it, I go, Wow, that's fantastic. You know, but when you're doing three takes, and you're moving on, you have to decide that very quickly,
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right. Welcome to the podcast, tapping creativity with myself, Matthew C. Temple. And each week, we're going to dive into questions and issues and inspiration around creativity and the creative process.
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Welcome to this week's episode of tapping creativity with myself, Matthew Temple, and today I am joined by writer, director and also collaborator at one time, Aaron filmin. have always just called you, Aaron filmin. But I've also joked and called you, Aaron, gentlemen, because I know that your ancestors at one point probably thought you know what we're gonna like screw with this guy. And we're always gonna move to America at some point. And we're just going to throw this random j right after the app and his name. But Aaron was born and raised in Southern California, but he attended film school at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco, and after college, moved back to LA, and began his career as a director working primarily in short form music, videos, commercials, things like that, through that experience, was able to travel a lot to meet some great people. Wonderful friendships are built loyal business partners along the way.
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And his love of genre filmmaking is actually one of the things that pushed him into his current visual style. And it turns out that it's actually that blend of that visual style along with his own inner relationship to social change, social justice, awareness through art has come together in a pretty special and unique way. And so telling stories, without limits that explore the social issues, and unexpected way has become a personal and creative mantra for him. And Whoo, with all that being said, welcome, Aaron,
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Matthew, thanks for having me. How's it going?
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It's going great.
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And especially good to be spending some time with you. As I mentioned, right at the beginning, we have collaborated together. And so I'm really excited to actually come and have this conversation with you. In part because, you know, obviously, these conversations have been piecemeal throughout, we decided we were going to work together at one point. But to actually bring awareness into this process is something that I'm really excited about. So I'm actually we just want to start with having you tell us about your most recent feature film that you made, and with a little disclaimer that it is the project that we worked together on, but tell us about just about that project so that our listeners know about it.
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Well, I recently made co wrote and directed a feature film called the shoe, and the title was later changed to caged. And cage was actually just released January 26. Here in North America with shout studios, the CO writer who I worked with James doc Mason, actually was the one who put us together which was kind of a great thing and and you know, like I've always told you outset, you know, we couldn't have done it without you and it was awesome to to get to know you, in that process. See your process and you know, kind of enter into the trenches to embark upon making the feature film together.
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It's a really interesting experience for those who haven't done it. And I, I highly recommend it definitely, it's a personal test,
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yes. And a long process as well. And that was actually one of the things that I wanted to dive in for, and that is the duration, I think it's something that's going to be interesting to people involved in the creative process, particularly those people who have ideas or dreams, but seem like they're somehow consistently thwarted along the way. And Florida doesn't necessarily mean sort of completely batted down, never to stand up again. But the creative process is a battle. And it becomes even more.
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So when you're dealing with something that's so many moving parts, like when you sat down, you write a script, it's like you, yourself, your co writer and your co writer self. But then you step into all of a sudden having people were bringing the money in someone who's operating the camera, and someone who's making sure everyone shows up and making sure those who showed up, get paid And all this.
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So I want to kind of kind of go back onto this process and just say, can you talk about the duration of this entire process?
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And the kind of what your relationship to that duration was?
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Yeah, absolutely. And I know this is this is probably abnormal. But it was what we needed to go through in order to get this project done. But for years, for getting caged from basically out of my head onto the screen, and released with a distributor four years of my life.
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Okay, and then what about the writing, let's go back on on to that how, you know, because you obviously, were living this project and doing some of the fundraising and everything you've it's an interesting thing, because the movie was written in 90 days.
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But I have a business partner at panic house films. And we intended to make another film.
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And that film was a $3 million feature, which was on the high end of low budget, and I didn't have another credit in feature films. So, you know, I was basically a risky proposition for an investor, one being a first timer to being a first timer at a budget level, which was on the high end of our budget. So we went and spent two and a half years trying to raise the money with a different combination of actors and a different combination of tax credits and a different combination of potential investors. And I was watching a featurette, on a movie with a pair of directors who did this movie called starry eyes, who ended up doing the recent Pet Cemetery. And they had said that they pivoted, they went down a road, hit a roadblock, and decided to pivot to a smaller film. And this seemed like a good idea. Even though I knew that doing that would mean, I would make a lot less money, the creature comforts within the production were going to be you know, there weren't going to be any. But I knew that doing the film was the battle, you kind of you have to pay your dues. And I think I ended up paying my dues, and music videos and commercials, and you know, every sort of art form I've worked in, and that didn't exclude me from paying my dues and features. So I rolled up my sleeves and said, let's do it this way, because I believe, just doing it, I believe you're not moving forward, you're not moving. And so we did.
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And literally every piece fell into place. Within six months, we were shooting on set we have you know, and we wrote the script. And three, we had raised some money before. So there was a little bit of money from the last production which we had gotten cleared with the investors to put into this production. And then we were raising money on the fly as we were going as well. I really recommend having all the money for your movie before you start to go to if you have to. It is a way to get it done. The thing
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that I like that you just said is that you if you're not moving forward, you're not moving and to just do it in this pivoting. And I think one of the things that happens is that creative people get really sort of fixated on an idea. And I think one of the things about the creative process that actually makes it come alive is is the way that you have to pivot. And sometimes that pivot is in what your project is.
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Sometimes that pivot is how am I going to be able to make this project and then sometimes that pivot is you're on set and all of a sudden you realize that you don't have enough money or you can't clear the certain thing or whatever it is. And so you're pivoting again and again. And so therefore, the goal that you're going towards, in some ways the the sort of the Uber goal or the over you know the arch goal as it were is the one That is so hard to maintain as as the vision when we start to think that, oh, I have to do it in this certain manner. And you were right, let that go.
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I mean, I didn't have a choice, you know what I mean? I knew the only way to be successful when you're building your dream, on the backs of other people's favors, and goodwill, is to be fluid, you really need to take advantage of what you have, need to be grateful for what you have at the moment, and take advantage of it to the best of your ability. If you have a scene that set at a mansion, but you have a shot, then you're probably in the best. It's in your best interest to figure out a way to do a rewrite. If you can't.
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Right. You know, that's, that's a hard thing to wrap your head around. But, but I my background, one of the first things I did in the industry was I worked for an agent, and I would help his clients make trailers for essentially things that they were trying to find. So I would always start with, okay, what can we shoot? What do we own? And I boiled things down to like, the things that we had at our disposal. And and it forced me into a way of thinking where I was, what is this concept? What does it promised? What is the poster for this concept? How can we start to paint a very broad brush and create these kind of tentpole images that were ultimately will sell the project. But but we weren't being we weren't getting bogged down with perfection, we weren't getting bogged down with too many details.
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It was about finding materials that we could use to create the essence of something. And, and being able to not be so precious, I think is a really valuable lesson for any creative,
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you know, what if you could just underline that six or seven times, that would be great. Not to be so precious, because when you get too precious, the idea ultimately becomes greater than the project itself. And I think that in and of itself, kills, kills creativity, because you're never going to do it perfectly.
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That's just impossible.
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It's almost impossible to see in the moment. But it's like really easy to see, in hindsight, every project is going to be a representation of where you were at that moment in your life. But, but when you're when you're hoping that that that project is going to change your life, it becomes extremely valuable. It's hard to not to become precious about it.
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Because I need this to launch me into the next stage of my creative development.
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I almost wish that every person that had a story to tell, which is basically everybody, but that it had a storytelling, they wanted to tell it, they were basically given, you know, a certain amount of money, and said, You have 15 days to do this. And every day that goes you are we're taking a little piece of your like future dreams away from you.
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Because what it did, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was you didn't give up.
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And there were times where you moved really, really really, really slowly, right? You said from from when this thing was in the can until it was released was like four years. That's I mean, independent films. That's not the most uncommon thing in the world. But it is a little bit exaggerated. For sure.
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It took this time and you're willing to to say you know what? I can't necessarily get my movie finished this moment. But if I do a little bit consistently, and I continue to work with it, eventually I will get there. Right.
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And and it's one of the things that I actually I don't have it up here right now. But this Reddit thread that drove a ton of traffic to the trailer. Like overnight, there was 250,000 views on the trailer. Yeah, that Reddit thread, actually. And I could probably even bring it up right here because I think one of the things that was so cool about that was that was like basically a wide meal. Just paraphrase was like my best friend has been in the industry for like 20 years. And he's, you know, and he's finally releasing his feature film. Yeah.
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Yeah. That's sometimes just what it takes.
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And I love that. It was wonderful to, to talk to so many people who were trying to do exactly what we had just done. You know, and I felt like it was really gratifying to feel like that I was going to maybe possibly inspire somebody to know that it's okay that it's it's super hard. Or that if you have to, you know, put your dream project on hold to do the first project that that's okay. And also, you know, like, Don't scoff at the opportunity to spend 15 days on set to make your, you know, your passion project. Like, you know, you I know you want 30 I did. But you know, like, you might be able to do it in 15.
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Or you might have to, if you're going to do it,
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exactly.
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And I think that's one of the things was so beautiful.
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So I'm going to, I'm going to compliment you for a second, and I'm asking how you do this, when you were on set, like this whole thing, you're talking about compromises, right? That's kind of a bit of the focus of our conversation, is you're compromising and compromising, and which can oftentimes be a bad word.
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But it doesn't actually have to be because as soon as you make a compromise, you're actually opening up the opportunity to do something that you would never have done otherwise. So if you say you have to shoot and 15, instead of 30 days, it means you're drawing on your creativity in order to get there. And then as a filmmaker, you have a co writer, there were four producers on the project, you as the director, it was your vision, but you also had a dp who had her ideas of what she was going to bring in. You had, you know, you had a list actor? And
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and yeah, and I don't know, say each actor comes with their own interpretation of your material, you know,
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yeah. And a list actors, as we know, always have ideas and opinions. And so there was this constant need to adjust.
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And so this question I kind of have is, since you did it, so Well, how do you actually keep your vision or keep a through line in the vision, while evolving it as it needs to evolve, and also dealing with the compromises in collaboration with team and budget restrictions, etc,
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I think you need to be to be humble, and as much that other people will have great ideas, and that's okay, that doesn't make you any less responsible for the vision. You know, so you don't have to, that's not something you have to worry about. As a matter of fact, you should be worried if you're not surrounded by people who are coming up with great ideas, right? And then, you know, too, sometimes, you have to say no, and it's okay. But you need to do it respectfully, and it will go a lot better if you can articulate yourself in a way that doesn't waste a lot of time, but also doesn't make someone feel stupid, right? It seems like, okay, because ultimately, it's about trust. Like, if you have a raise, if someone makes a suggestion, and you don't like it, and you say no, it shouldn't require anything more than that, if you're the director, but because people are confident, and creative, like it helps, you know, soften the blow to know that oh, well, it does make it does have a ripple effect, that would affect my character in a way that I hadn't thought of. And to be able to kind of foresee those ripples and express them in a respectful manner is really, really helpful.
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You know, there's the other side of that, which is that when you're the director, and you did on on caged, you didn't sleep a ton.
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Now,
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maybe an understatement, you drink a lot of coffee, whenever you could take a break, you know, went down and sucked down a cigarette. And like there was a ton of pressure on your when you're in the trenches. As we all know, in the trenches, you have this dedication to the project. But there are times where you lose some of the sort of sometimes the bigger picture right now, you know, that's one of the hallmarks of the creative process within filmmaking is that you're not doing this on your own. You're responsible, it's your vision, but you also bring other people and say, you also have to help be responsible for this project, because I can't carry this by myself, it's totally impossible.
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That's one of the pitfalls of being so fluid. You know, every other part of the process, you know, screenwriting editorial, like there may be long days in order to achieve your goals within those frameworks. But pressure is not a consideration.
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Even even though there is pressure within those environments. It's not the same kind of pressure as being on set. And knowing that just changing where you want to put the camera that you could lose the entire day, based on you know what that means to the production. Like or, you know, if, if you play too much in one scene, you run the risk of losing the scene and then you you can't afford to go back or you can't afford to go into overtime.
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And then sometimes you do something, it's amazing and it brings you an idea But you can't bring that idea to, you can't fully realize that idea because it changes things in a way. So you, you might sometimes, I mean, in the situation where you feel like you've discovered something better, I'd say, Get as much of that as you can, because you'll get ideas in post production that you can't come up with on set. But sometimes, it's unfortunate, because you want to change a lot of things because everything has becomes illuminated, because of this kernel of something that you found in the moment. But you can't, because it's going to change your plan to a point where people who are there to protect you will get really, really mad at you.
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Because you're making their job impossible.
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Oh, that sounds like like a subtle revenue mine.
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No. But it's one of the things that I like to hear you talk about it, because I do think that you did it really, really well. There were times obviously as your producer, on caged where I was frustrated.
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And when I look back on that experience, the beautiful thing was actually how you navigated knowing when to like, let go and when to hold firm. Some people maybe are just natural at that. I think for most of us, it's it's obviously a process to get there, because you didn't really really nicely, and that doesn't mean that there was never friction, but that wasn't also the point that when there's mutual respect, friction is no no longer a problematic thing.
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Yeah, it wasn't something that was highly conscious of I just felt in the moment instinctually that we didn't have enough shots, you know, and that if we didn't stay a little bit longer, we weren't going to have enough material to do the scene justice, which would be a bigger problem.
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Rather than, let's just do another tape of this, because we're kind of flooding, it's something cool, we want, you know, I mean, those are moments that you can afford to maybe give away. You don't have to give anything, but there's some moments that you have to fight for.
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Because you just don't have it if you don't have you know, your movie is on. And this is something that I I can honestly say, like from this experience is that your movie is only as good as your weakest scene.
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You know, like, and so you have to fight to, to make sure that none of them are that bad.
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And I think the other thing you kind of you bring up in that too, is and you you alluded to this earlier, when you're in the creative process, you don't really know what you have in the moment necessarily, particularly in this process. But Gosh, there was a famous Carole King song but they put on a beside of another single because the record company was like I don't think that this single is going to do very well. So we need a really strong beside on Riley that a side song ended up being such a huge hit that that this besides Aren't we all know it, but it was just buried for years. Right? So this had been a big and it was actually it wasn't it was Carole King with her one of her co writers. But my point is, is that you don't necessarily know what you have, until it's out there. In a in, there's almost like these little steps of that, particularly in the filmmaking process where you don't know what you have until you're wrapped and you're in the editing room. And you sometimes you find gems, and sometimes you find a glaring hole that you absolutely must plug.
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You know, it's funny, like and I've heard other people express this is definitely one of my personal quirks is that like, when I'm writing, I'm basically and I'm pretty sure probably most people do this, but I'm reading every line, as I write them. I'm performing them in my mind silently as I as I write it on the page. And then as I'm trying to refine the material, like I'm constantly rereading my own material, you know, I probably read my script 10,000 times, you know what I mean?
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So it through doing that, and getting to the point where I have a final product or at least final for the screenwriting process, and we're taking it to set to actually go shoot it. So you know it with cage, we didn't have any time for rehearsal, really. We had the performance in my mind. We had the stuff that we did in the auditions for the actors who are the smaller parts who audition, who weren't offer only. And then we have the old script. So to mean, the first performance done by an actor automatically sounds wrong, no matter how right it is. Because it's no longer in the rhythm that I performed it when I wrote it. This is something I have to be very careful of, because I know that their gut reaction isn't necessarily wrong. And Matter of fact, it could be very right, you know, but I have to watch The take, I have to be to re familiarize myself with the cadence choices that they've made before I can judge it fairly, because it automatically feels to me like a mistake. Because if you're trying to replicate what you've envisioned, it automatically sounds different to me. And then when I actually watch it, I go, Wow, that's fantastic. You know, but when you're doing three takes, and you're moving on, you have to decide that very quickly,
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right? Yeah, it lends to something that is presence. Right? And I, it, there's two kind of thoughts that are going on my mind, I'm curious, what you think about this is that you need to have this real presence, because there are times where you have to rewrite something on the fly, or there's times where you have to recognize that's better than what I had. Or that's really not sufficient for this moment. So it takes this presence. So that's presence on one side, and then the other side is this great need for certainty. Sometimes I almost wonder, when I think of kind of the rap that people in the film industry get sometimes directors, right, like, I need this, I need this, it's kind of almost like a brace of thing. Because you're actually dealing with something that has the opportunities for failure are every moment so great, that if you don't come up with a sense of certainty, in order to move forward, you might just kind of get blown away or are going to miss the mark or something. So it's this kind of balance between being really certain and holding your vision while also being so present in the moment. And I want to hear your how you juggle that or what you think about that?
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Well, I think certainty is essential to gain the trust of everybody around you. So it's really more of a perceptional thing. But as soon as there's a divergence between what you thought you needed and what you got, there's going to be the potential for uncertainty. That's okay. You need to prep your ass off, and throw it all away, and then let all that prep be the justification for your instincts.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.190
That is, that's beautiful.
00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:20.880
That's how I feel about it. You know what I mean? Like, if you do your homework, your instincts won't fail you. Right?
00:27:21.509 --> 00:27:28.079
But you can't, you can't wrestle.
00:27:21.509 --> 00:27:34.559
It's got to be the best it can be in the moment, regardless of how different that moment is, from what you imagined. Yeah,
00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:46.289
I use a similar quote from the Marines in my book, the creatives handbook. And it's that we don't rise to the occasion, we fall back on our preparation.
00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:48.809
Right? That's basically a paraphrasing of exactly what you just said, If I get it right.
00:27:49.259 --> 00:28:28.200
I was listening to an interview with Eddie Murphy yesterday. And he was saying how like, he was the first African American actor who told the white guy what to do, right. And I thought this was really interesting. And you start to think of like, he was the first African American guy who wasn't the sidekick. He was the star, you know, assuming it wasn't like a drama, then like a Sidney Poitier type of thing. Like, so he created this new genre, right? The guy who was interviewing him said, Oh, well, you know, so this is something you consciously did. He said, Absolutely not. He said, I was like the feather and Forrest Gump. You know, I was there. And then the wind took me somewhere.
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:42.509
And then I landed there for a bit, and then it blew the other way. And it took me there, I was just me in that situation, trying to do the best I can, you know, and that's kind of, I feel like, you know, to some degree, that's, that's what we're both kind of saying here,
00:28:42.809 --> 00:29:00.960
that kind of actually leads me into, you know, knowing that you've chosen a path as a creative as an art as a creator, as an artist, as a director, how do you sort of encapsulate your process and what are sort of the some of the key things that you use to guide your process principles? I
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:30.990
guess? Well, I'm not a person who, who lacks motivation. I get, like, a sense of anxiety when I'm when I'm not doing something creative. You know, I think that's partly because I feel like there's like a struggle in life, but like, my creative choices in life, have caused me to, to struggle, you know, so I want to be working as hard as I can as often as I can, because I don't want to delay any of the blame on me.
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:42.660
But I also, I meant I get, I hate what I do. And I love what I do.
00:29:43.049 --> 00:30:58.500
Like nothing makes me feel better than hitting a home run. Nothing makes me feel more stupid than failing. But it also makes my life like super gratifying wrestling between failure and success within this thing that I bakes the years of my life go by, like, they say, like, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. You know what I mean? Like the clock of my day, like is sundown sunset, it's just a blink of an eye, you know. And I feel like that my whole life's been like that. So that I feel very, very lucky. You know, but I mean, as far as process goes, I find myself most creative. Like, very early in the morning. So I tried to do all of my creative, like, my creative work, I wake up at like, four in the morning, pretty much every day, I have a cup of coffee, and I'm doing something, you know, whether it's emails related to a production or, or was doing something by, like, you know, five o'clock in the morning, and I've worked into the late afternoon. If I'm doing a full day on something, and then I pretty much stop. You know,
00:30:58.648 --> 00:31:01.919
you also know when to stop? I do I do, it just stops working.
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And I say, Okay, well, that's, that's enough for me today.
00:31:05.278 --> 00:31:53.848
That's something that you don't necessarily get your choice about onset. You know, sometimes you shoot nights, like, that's something that I have, I struggle with, but you know, you just you just deal with it, I tried to get to a place, when it comes to ideas, I try to get to a place of nothingness. In my mind, whenever I can feel myself trying to come up with something, I always fail, every time I come up with what I consider for me to be a really good idea. I'm, you know, on a bike ride, or on the treadmill, in the shower, I can't try to come up with it, what I tend to do is watch a lot of movies and read a lot during those times. And, and that usually helps me come up with something,
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:29.609
right? Yeah, it's a kind of like what I sort of see it because I'm also a bit more of the type A personality without actually creating the negative space because it's in the negative space it where there's actually so much life, you know, it's in, there's something new, the discoveries get made in the negative space, it's a little bit what you're talking about. And the other thing that's that stands out for me, and what you just shared was, you've actually found a process that works for you. It's not special, it's not the best way or the right way. But it's what works for you. And you've been willing to step into that and not be not shy away from it, or I think it should be different, right?
00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:29.609
Yeah,
00:32:29.640 --> 00:33:41.009
it's kind of, it's kind of like, doing all the prep on and then letting your instincts kind of take hold. But this is like applying that model to something that doesn't exist yet. You know, I mean, so you say you're just you're just like, ultimately, like, You're, you're waiting for inspiration to strike. So if you're taking in a lot of things that you you're ultimately passionate about, I mean, I reading the newspaper from we can do that for you, you know, being on on a reading a variety of blog posts, you know, to be more contemporary, like, have like things that I'm passionate about that as soon as like that, in concert with a really great Spotify playlist could be all I need to have, like my next best idea, you know what I mean? But it's really just creating an opportunity for yourself to become inspired. You know, so I, so I do things that inspire me, and, and trust that the idea will come. Because I always feel like I'm coming up with something
00:33:41.039 --> 00:34:21.900
right. In my experience, the bigger thing is actually taking the idea and plumbing it to its deepest depths and working it and failing through it and sort of failing upwards and by continuously, you know, engaging in the work, you know, ideas come and sometimes they don't, particularly when you're like, Okay, I need an idea now then they don't tend to stay away. But when you have it, then it's actually taking the idea into something and it's really actually the, one of the the hallmarks really of creativity, right is taking nothing and turning it into something taking an idea that just exists and nowhere and actualizing it
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:33.449
it's like the difference between a filmmaker and a creative as a script. That's, that is huge.
00:34:24.989 --> 00:34:33.449
Everyone has an idea for a movie.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.550
Very few people have a script.
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:46.860
Yeah. And even fewer people take that into a good script. Right? Because it's right and then even fewer take that into a movie and even fewer into a good one. Because it's so dang hard.
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.280
Right?
00:34:47.309 --> 00:34:52.710
What can I say? I mean, there's 10,000 films that get shot a year and 1500 of them get distribution.
00:34:53.190 --> 00:34:59.010
Yeah, yeah. And of those 1500 how many of them actually make real money. Not too many.
00:34:59.730 --> 00:35:01.980
The They're stacked against you in every way.
00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:21.840
Yeah. Well, they odds were stacked against you, but you have done it and your feature film debut. And current most recent release, caged is available now with Eddie good eggy melora harden, Angela serapion. And available pretty much everywhere where you can stream movies.
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:24.780
And I really mean, and I couldn't have done it without you.
00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:33.960
And when it comes to the cast, so you just mentioned they all put together such special performances it was, it was really a really a pleasure to to work with them and help them with that.
00:35:34.050 --> 00:36:31.590
You know, and I will just say, in closing, first of all right back atcha, just the working with you. Like I said, one of the things about being on set is that any of the sort of the friction, that cut that comes with when it comes with mutual respect, and when it comes towards a mutual goal, it becomes something that's really wonderful. And I loved that so many people from that production are still sort of connected somehow. Yeah, pretty nice. And it's so cool. I guess I can post anything, but personal life, anything. And even still, a big percentage of the people that we worked with on that project are still posting, commenting, whatever. So you really did create a fantastical magical space. And within that magical space, a really special movie caged for all the listeners, we'll put a link to it in the in the show notes. And make sure you go check it out cage director and see
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Matt, I thought I thought that all that response was just because we only went overtime one day. Every other set i'd bet on is always been you know, you know, 18 hour days. And you know, it's I, every time I post on Facebook, no one gets back to me. So on this one we that I think we all a lot of that to you and the other producers,
00:36:56.460 --> 00:37:53.519
it was a really good team. And I think that was one of the things he did actually have real respect for everyone on the set. And it's funny you brought that about not going overtime. It is something that I've always found as a priority when I made my first movie 20 ish years ago, and we had a lot of those and then the days after, the more the way it hit morale can be really hard. And when there was that real respect that everyone needed, there's their sleep so they could come in the next day. Really refreshed. It made for a feeling of everyone felt cared for and this wonderful camaraderie and respect towards this common goal of turning your script that you co wrote with James Mason into this really special little movie. So for everyone who's listening, go check it out. Thanks for joining us. Thank you Aaron for coming and spending your time with us and sharing your insight wisdom and creativity with our audience and I look forward to making another movie
