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EMDR and the Future of Healing, featuring Paul Schulte.
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Paul Schulte, EMDR specialist and former finance executive, explores the growing role of eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing in treating trauma, PTSD, addiction, and other mental health concerns.
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Drawing from his experience working with clients across multiple countries and languages, Paul explains how EMDR seeks to help individuals process traumatic memories that may remain emotionally unresolved.
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He discusses why he believes EMDR offers advantages over traditional talk therapy for many trauma-related conditions, and predicts that it will continue to expand significantly in the coming years.
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The conversation explores the neuroscience behind trauma, including the relationship between emotional and cognitive processing, and how EMDR aims to help individuals integrate difficult experiences into a coherent personal narrative.
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Paul describes recurring themes he has observed among clients from diverse cultural backgrounds, noting similarities in emotional healing processes across languages and countries.
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Discussion also examines the role of grief, self-forgiveness, acceptance, and recovery from shame and trauma treatment.
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Paul shares his work supporting mental health professionals in Ukraine following the Russian invasion, including training psychologists to address the anticipated wave of trauma-related disorders among soldiers and civilians.
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These experiences contributed to the development of the iMover app, a digital platform designed to increase access to EMDR-based interventions.
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Available in multiple languages, the app includes programs addressing PTSD, addiction, burnout, sexual trauma, and recovery from narcissistic relationships.
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This episode concludes with a broader conversation about hope, resilience, and the belief that healing remains possible even after profound trauma.
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This is Talking Addiction and Recovery, the podcast talking.
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You've guessed it, all about addiction and recovery.
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Join your host, licensed professional counselor Andrew J.
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Dreyer, as he and his guests break down recovery topics with raw honesty, delving into deep conversations around the topics of substance abuse, mental health, and gambling.
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We intend to meet individuals where they are on their own personal journey of recovery with dignity, respect, and compassion.
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We'll do more than talk addiction and recovery.
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We'll explore it.
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We're glad you've joined us.
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Here with today's episode, your host, Andrew Treyer.
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He spent 22 years as an international banker across Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Singapore before retraining through UCLA School of Family Medicine.
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Over the past two decades, he has helped hundreds of people recover from trauma, PTSD, addiction, sexual abuse, narcissistic abuse, and burnout.
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He has written five books on mental health, taught at 11 universities across four continents, and last year spent two months training 50 Ukrainian Army psychologists in EMDR while working directly with soldiers and refugees.
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He recently developed iMover, an app offering self-guided EMDR audio sessions for people who cannot easily access a therapist.
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He has been sober for 21 years.
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You can learn more about Paul in the podcast notes.
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Before we dive into Paul's episode, a reminder that Talking Addiction Recovery Podcast is now an approved continuing education provider through IPGGC, NASW, and NADAC.
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Meaning clinicians can earn CEUs just by listening to Select Podcast episodes and completing a short post-test.
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This is all for free.
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No membership, no paid platform, just the content you're already consuming, working for your professional development.
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You can head over to www.andrewjshrreyer.com for everything you need.
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Now let's listen to Paul's episode.
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On this episode of Talking Addiction Recovery Podcast, I want to welcome Paul Schulte.
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Thanks for joining.
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Thank you for letting me be here.
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Yeah, we're going to talk about EMDR, something that is I wouldn't say going to be new to everyone who's listening, but it's going to be something different and could be very new to some people as well.
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There might be some people who have an idea of what it is, but for us to be able to kind of talk about your work in it and some of the things that you notice using that is going to be, I think, really beneficial to uh listeners.
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Before we do that, though, can you just give a little bit of a background about yourself?
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Yeah, so I am from California and I have been living overseas for most of my life in Hong Kong, Singapore, Indonesia, Tokyo, and now I live in Barcelona.
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And I have been, you know, uh in the last 22 years, I've shifted my life completely into work with mental health, uh, trauma, PTSD, and addiction.
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And uh, of course, I come from a family that has just been uh really uh destroyed by alcoholism.
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Unfortunately, both my parents were in the military, and my father had terrible, untreated, undiagnosed PTSD that was devastating for the family unit.
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So a lot of this work is near and dear to my heart.
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And I recently was in Ukraine um training uh 50 army psychologists in the Ukrainian army to help them get their handle uh on the you know PTSD problem that is uh you know going to ramp up uh with their 1.1 million man army.
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And and of course, it's also for the you know 5 million out uh refugees outside Ukraine, three and a half million inside Ukraine.
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So I've been working with them closely, um getting uh up to speed and doing several you know multi-hour seminars with hundreds of psychologists recently.
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So that's been a real big passion of mine.
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Amazing.
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And you were in finance before coming up.
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Yeah, I had a career in finance and I hated it.
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And 23 years ago, I just said phoey and I quit and I went to UCLA and I got uh trained up in counseling and psychology and drug addiction treatment.
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And then I discovered uh EMDR like uh eight and a half years ago uh when I was living in Singapore, and I did a lot of it on myself with a with a therapist, and it it blew me away how effective it was.
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And so it really piqued my interest.
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And since then, I have been qualified in four different uh entities and I've written a book on EMDR, it's an audio book.
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Uh, and I've been uh I've worked with hundreds of uh clients on um in doing EMDR with them on everything under the sun.
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Um uh sexual assault, sexual abuse, incest, uh, PTSD, um escaping the narcissist, uh burnout, uh drug addiction, and uh many other issues, suicide of a family member, death of a family member, uh murder of a family member.
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And so it is something that I have found to be uh you know in my heart and in my mind, I will tell you this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
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I have never seen anything more effective in treating uh uh depression, anxiety, uh chronic sadness, uh incapacity to deal with death of a loved one.
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I have never seen anything better than EMDR.
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So for someone who has no idea what that is or what we're referencing when they just hear us say EMDR, can you talk a little bit about what it is and just maybe some of the main highlights about what EMDR does?
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Can you just give a little bit of like a simple kind of like high overview for people who are like, what are they referring to?
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Yeah, sure, exactly, exactly.
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It's very simple.
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It's eye movement, uh desensitization, and reprocessing.
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And what it is basically is just in a nutshell, uh, you know, sort of standing on one foot.
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Uh my left-handedness goes to my right side of my brain.
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And this part of the brain, you know, is largely in general responsible for story and narrative, imagination, pictures, right?
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Creating pictures of reality.
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And then my my right sidedness, you know, my left side of my brain is time, space, uh, people, place, thing.
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And what EMDR does when you go back and forth with your uh hand, and the hand movement is the most effective.
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You can have electronic uh pulses on your hands or electronic uh noises in your ear, alternate, alternating noises, hand movement is the most effective.
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You you get the right brain and left brain talking to each other, and what happens is you pull out ancient, unprocessed trauma that is basically memories and emotions that occurred during the time of the trauma.
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When we are in a traumatic situation, sexual assault, sexual abuse, you know, a battle, uh, physical abuse, whatever.
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We are in fight or flight mode.
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We know that as humans, we know what that means.
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And when we're in fight or flight mode, our frontal blank, uh, our front part of our brain, our pre-frontal cortex, is shut down.
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It's offline.
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And so these emotions and memories are stored in their primitive form during the time of the trauma.
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And that's why when we try to call these things up, we we get panicky because our front brain can't process it.
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These are pure emotions, and the timing is off, right?
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And the sense of smell and taste and feeling and hearing are scrambled.
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And EMDR puts these things together in a coherent state to allow you to desensitize yourself, to get some distance from the initial trauma, because we have to let that trauma come forward.
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And EMDR does it in a very quick and uh calm way, and usually you require nothing more than maybe four to six hours of therapy.
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I believe talk therapy doesn't work because talk therapy is trying to access our logical part of our brain for a purely emotional, almost reptilian uh memorization of a traumatic event in the base of our brain in the amygdala, which they call our lizard brain.
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And those two do not talk to each other, and that's why EMDR has come along and it has it does astonishing things.
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It is the number one recommended treatment for PTSD, according to so many of the um psychological and psychiatric associations.
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It's the number one uh recommended treatment for PTSD for the military.
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That is what is going on only in the last, I would say, 10 years.
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And you mentioned learning a lot about it overseas.
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I'm curious, did is there anything you've noticed in how other countries or where you learned about it and where you experienced it is different than how in the US we talk about it or treat it or use it?
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Is there any disconnect or is there anything that stands out into experiencing this in overseas versus what we may see here in the US with like the use of EMDR or how we talk about it or how often it's being used?
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Anything you can throw out there?
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Uh great question.
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Uh I was thinking about this yesterday because I was working with a woman um from uh Russia yesterday, and uh she's also uh part uh from a country in Africa.
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And so I have done this in uh Russian, Ukrainian, Spanish, uh, Portuguese, uh, and English, and I've done it with people on four continents, and I can tell you that we are all exactly the same.
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And when we come to certain points in the EMDR, it's astounding how the words that people use, and I ask them to tell me my Spanish is good, my Portuguese is good, my uh, you know, we we worked, uh I have a automatic translator for Ukrainian that I used, and I'm astounded by the not just similar, nearly identical words when people are going through these important uh uh segues into healing.
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The words are identical so far in six languages.
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Astounding.
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That's amazing.
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Because I'm curious with part of it, is I watched another interview you did where the claim the thing that you said was um EMDR over talk therapy in the next five years.
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That is one thing that you you mentioned.
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And one of the things that I'm curious about is when EMDR came about more, and people were like talking about it more.
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There was I was seeing there's more trainings about it, there are more people doing it.
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I still haven't seen a lot of people saying this is something they're gonna go learn to do, or this is what they're gonna provide.
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Sometimes I see places have like 20 clinicians, maybe there's one who does EMDR.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, so that's where I'm crazy.
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That's where I'm wondering where that where is that disconnect.
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I know, I know.
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Uh yeah.
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Yeah, so I'll give an example.
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My nephew, um, he's a great guy, and he was in the Marines for nine years, and then he was a uh a homicide detective, great guy.
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He was dealing with some PTSD, and he went to a uh three-month program in Southern California, and there was one EMDR specialist there, and the rest were top therapists.
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And he was talking about some very to be frank, he's a homicide detective.
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He was talking about very brutal, awful things humans do to each other.
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This is what homicide officers do, they investigate murder.
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And he was describing some stuff, and the therapist basically said, Oh, I have to give up and excuse myself on being triggered.
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And you know, that's just not on.
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That is not what we need to be doing here.
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Same thing with an SAS, which is British Special Forces guy I did EMDR with last week.
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Same thing happened to him with this therapist.
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She was triggered and said, People shouldn't do those things to each other.
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And it was like, Well, they do.
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And you know, uh, why are we sitting here having to, you know, treat, you know, I'm being treated here, not you.
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And so he told me the most effective thing that he did in that three months of uh of helping him with his PTSD was EMDR.
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Right?
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So I'm just gonna say that.
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Uh every major significant drug addiction treatment center is gonna have an EMDR specialist now.
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Um so it's just starting to catch on.
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But of course, talk therapists hate this because they're they're threatened.
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And so the talk therapy, you know, whatever uh, you know, masters in social work, clinical psychologists, they're they're very uh they're very threatened by the the extraordinary growth of this in a very short period of time.
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That's what's going on here.
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What what has gotten the growth recently to really accelerate?
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Is it the the research is catching up?
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Is it the effects we're seeing is now showing?
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Like, what is it that's kind of gotten it to sort of according to what you're what you're looking at is potentially outpace and you know it's gonna be in every program and it's gonna be more popular.
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Like, what is behind the acceleration of interest or seeing the benefit of what EMDR does?
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Anything they can share online.
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Yeah, I think I think I think you're right.
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I think everything you said is is is right on the money.
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I think that there's been a great deal of research.
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There's been peer-reviewed studies, there's been meta-studies, and you know, uh very professional, well-respected journals of the psychiatric and the psychological community, um, and even the the the the um NIH uh has done a lot of work on on uh EMDR.
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But I'll tell you what it is.
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There's been three or four big movie stars who come who came out and said, I did EMDR, and it was so helpful, I can't believe it.
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That is what is going on.
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I forget who it was, but she was she was um, you know, every time you go on Instagram, she comes up, oh, I did EMDR and it really saved my life and it was amazing, and my God, I I, you know, and so forth and so on.
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What happens with me, with probably half of the clients I've dealt with of the hundreds I've worked with, they will say, What was I doing?
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What was I doing?
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Having six years of of therapy, I just solved this big problem I was dealing with in six years of therapy in 10 hours, you know, and that is exactly my experience at least half the time.
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Uh and so uh I think the celebrities, you know, they always say that um, you know, politics and science is is downstream of culture.
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And I think the the the culture of celebrity woke up everybody to say, wait a minute here, if these people are saying that it worked, uh, you know, and and they get a million views, right?
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Because and it was a it was a it was a female movie star.
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We've seen that though throughout history, haven't we?
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We've seen where it's like all of a sudden a celebrity talks about going to like meetings, and then all of a sudden it like seems like that, like over history, there's been some celebrities coming out about like substance use or mental health, exactly, exactly.
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And then all of a sudden it seems like that picks up as a like this is acceptable, or oh my goodness, someone who's a celebrity had the same issue I did, and like because then like you know, memoirs get written and yeah, movies get made, and all of a sudden it seems like this is so it's interesting that that is what's happening here, but also we've seen that throughout history a lot with different things related to mental health, substance use, and just behavioral health in general.
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Yeah, and and also something else very, very important too, and that's what got me really interested in it too, from a scientific point of view, because I've been teaching in universities for 24 years.
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I've taught at universities, you know, on four or five continents.
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And you know, what I was looking at was um uh research from military institutions and defense ministries, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, right?
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The five eyes, all of those now point to P to EMDR as a sort of a go-to for PTSD for soldiers.
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And I was like, wow, something really important is happening here.
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And so you had the celebrities picking up on it, you had the militaries picking up on it for you know, millions of soldiers who came back from all very damaged from Afghanistan and from um uh Iraq and other parts of the world.
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And so I worked with many of these guys uh as veterans, uh, and it it has worked uh remarkably well.
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And I think that's a question that comes up is is EMDR for everyone?
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Is it something that everyone could go to?
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Because I think sometimes people talk about like anyone could go to a counselor and it's a it's a place where you can sit down, you can talk, you can get like get support.
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Is EMDR something that would fit anyone that is seeking some kind of support, whether it's substance use, trauma, mental health, whether it's relationship issues.
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And we know trauma plays a role in often a lot of those things that are going on.
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So it kind of begs the question does EMDR work for everyone?
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Or there are there's some times where someone would say EMDR is not appropriate for what you have going on.
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I think that's something that people might want to wonder if that's sort of how it can be used, or there are times where someone would say, like, this is not appropriate for you.
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Yeah, that's that that's a really uh great point.
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Uh you know, I'd like to turn it upside down, and I would like to ask you what percent of people finish 52 weeks uh uh uh top therapy?
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Do you know what what percent?
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Let's say what percent don't finish.
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Yeah, very low.
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Yeah, very low.
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Yeah, it's uh 5% finish.
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So if you want to be talking about somebody who is feeling better after you know 52 weeks, which is kind of a standard, like how are you doing after one year is a pretty good standard for any medical or psychological or psychiatric, you know, um you know, three months, you know, and then 12 months.
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And then 95% say, Oh, I stopped, it wasn't doing anything for me, so I stopped.
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And why did I stop?
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It wasn't working.
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And so don't tell me that that talk therapy is the go-to, that CBT, everybody works for CBT, that you know, family systems, it works for them.
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Gestalt is is very traumatic, gestalt therapy.
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It doesn't work for everybody, right?
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Um, and so so EMDR comes along and it is a fairly standard uh, you know, it's been looked at very carefully uh in in hundreds of journals now.
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It's been very well researched.
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It is it is a protocol, right?
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It's an eight step protocol.
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And that's what I was teaching when I was in Ukraine with these uh RV psychologists.
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And uh I have to say to you that, you know, um uh I don't want to toot my horn.
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And I would definitely say if it didn't work in almost all cases, people were much, much better after four, six, ten hours.
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Uh with some very heavy duty, very hardcore issues.
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Like I said, you know, sexual abuse, incest, rape, uh, sexual assault.
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Uh my best friend was blown up in front of me in the battlefield in Ukraine.
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Uh my um my colleague didn't obey an order and he's dead, and I blame myself.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:42.880
Uh uh my sister committed suicide, and I called her the night before, and I feel responsible.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.559
You know, uh hardcore stuff, right?
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:57.759
And I would will give you my own lived experience of working with these people that in most cases there's a great deal of relief because what are we doing?
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:06.079
We're bringing these primitive, uh, ancient emotions uh out uh carefully and calmly.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:14.880
Uh and when we do that, the fear goes down automatically because we're giving it its human size, right?
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.559
We're putting it out there.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.839
Desensitization, I like the word detachment.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.759
I like the word becoming objective.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.880
It's the first time in many people's lives they will say, Oh, that's what happened.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.160
Uh that's what happened.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.839
It wasn't what I thought.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.799
It wasn't how I thought about it, it wasn't how I viewed it.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.680
And and it feels better that I understand what happened because I've never been able to do that in talk therapy.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:47.599
Because why the reptile brain does not talk to the logical brain, they don't talk to each other, right?
00:23:47.680 --> 00:24:03.680
And an EMDR is is sideways, it's not from the back to front, it's sideways, and it's integrating these various parts of the brain that integrate taste, feel, smell, sound, and time together in an event.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:16.799
And automatically we should we should kind of just intuitively as humans, wow, now I have a narrative, now I have a story, now I'm calmer because I understand what happened.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.359
And now what am I gonna do with that?
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:26.480
Now that I'm sitting here as an adult in a calm space, in a safe space, what am I gonna do about this?
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:28.720
What am I gonna believe about myself?
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:34.240
For me, it's all about what am I gonna believe about myself that was not true before?
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.240
Or what belief did I pick up during the trauma that is no longer true or was never true?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.519
People say, I'm a coward, it was my fault.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.880
I should have done more.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.799
I didn't do enough to get away.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.079
I liked it, a big one, right?
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:59.440
Um I uh uh you know, oh my my father said I was a coward, so I must be a coward in this circumstance.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:08.720
And so we look to the the event to see what did we come to pick up as beliefs about ourselves, then as adults we say that's not true anymore.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.039
That just oh, in fact, you know what?
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:13.920
I hear it 80% of the time.
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:20.079
That belief I had about myself for 15, 20, 30 years was never true.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:47.839
Which also can last, and I think that's one of the things I heard about you in the interview that you did, which was like there's this traumatic event, but there's also this ongoing experience where like we kind of look at this event that happens, or this events, but also like how it becomes an ongoing experience of how someone feels, even five, ten, twenty years after that that trauma we used to see it as like an event.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:26:20.079
I I tend to see it more as like an experience that that can continue for there's really no ending necessarily to say like this is how long it lasts, but I think we used to see it as like this event, and we focus so much on the event itself, and then an event usually has like a start and end, or like it it is this thing, but then the trauma becomes something that someone experiences ongoing and and for so long, and it but could also be experiencing traumatic events ongoing.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:21.759
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.759
I I would say I like that a lot.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:31.680
I I would say that uh unprocessed trauma is an ongoing an ongoing experience, yeah.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:44.079
And not only that, it's even more of a freak show and more alarming because our brain, the different parts of our brain absorb our hearing and our sight and our smell and our sense of taste.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:27:00.480
And so when we remember traumas, we remember them because oh, I saw a face that looked like the guy that assaulted me, or that looked like the my father who beat me up, or oh, that smell was what I smelled in the battlefield, or oh my god, that noise makes me think back of the event.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:11.920
And so you have all this like this this uh uh a jumble uh of the five senses, and time is floating around, and so it's an experience.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:19.279
I would submit to you that EMDR turns that jumbled experience into an event.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.359
That is what EMDR does, it turns it into a single event.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.759
This happened to me, and when I can say this happened to me, aha.
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:36.720
Uh, this happened to me, I felt this, and I uh believe this about myself.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:43.200
And after we can talk about that for a few minutes, people will say, wait a minute, that doesn't that doesn't sound right.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.480
That what I came to believe about myself isn't doesn't sound right.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.319
That that I don't think that's true.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:56.960
Well, this this this is what happened to me, seems to be like an event that does have a start and end that can be placed in a time.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:03.359
This is who I am, seems to be something that just carries with you forever, then.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.880
Well, that's right.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:10.960
And and EMDR breaks that breaks that that that gets rid of that broken record.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.839
Yeah, we go around and around and around, and by the way, hey, you know what?
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.039
I'm used to that broken record, I like the broken record.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.000
And you know, one of my mentors said, Well, unfortunately, you know, the needle's upside down and it's really awful music.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.240
And do you are you sure that's true?
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.400
Are you sure that that that song is you know is your song?
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.079
And that's what EMDR does.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:51.279
It asks us to um be get into a uh a little bit of a discomfort zone and uh and and think uh uh uh about how am I going to reinterpret and reprocess my past in terms of what I have come to believe about myself.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:29:02.400
But when you do the eye movement, there's a blurring out of the fear and the sadness and the anger, right, and the uh fear, right?
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.319
What are we doing in EMDR?
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:05.440
We're grieving.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.079
EMDR is an emotional process of grieving, and what is grief?
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:20.880
Grief is a complex emotion of sadness and uh fear and anger, and the underlying foundation is shame, and that is what EMDR does.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:39.119
It it processes those emotions, and we get to emotions of acceptance, and we get to emotions of boundaries that I can take care of by boundaries, I can accept what happened, I can um come to forgive myself, big one.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:45.200
And then the last thing, and this is where I tell you, I swear, my friend, I've seen this in six languages.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.720
We you could even get to a point of not forgiving.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.759
This is not about forgiveness, forgetting.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:03.200
We want to come to a point of maybe some pity for the oppressor, because that is really the highest calling of humanity, is to move on in life.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.680
You know, we don't forgive our oppressor, we find pity for them.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:16.319
And I swear to you, I have come to that word in six languages, and it's crazy how humans will arrive at that.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.039
It's not forgiveness, it's not uh understanding, it's not empathy, it's different, it's pity.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:35.759
I'm sorry you're like that, I'm not like that, I'm moving on, and that's where we want to get with trauma self-forgiveness, acceptance, self-trust, and a little bit of pity.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.799
And that's what EMDR tends to do in this process called grieving.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:47.200
And one thing you did, which seems very unique, is you create an app for EMDR.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:48.880
Yeah.
00:30:49.119 --> 00:31:02.240
I'm and I'm very curious, was there was there any pushback to that or any challenges to being able to provide that through an app, considering what EMDR does?
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.599
I can imagine some people at first may have been like, well, how do you do this through an app?
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.720
Like you're like, how do you do this through that?
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.599
Was when you had that idea or when you created, was there anyone that was telling you, hey, you can't do EMDR through an app?
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.480
That's got to be in person, that's got to be with somebody.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:29.279
Um I was very curious because I I downloaded the app, I did the first exercise, I kind of went through it, and I was just curious, was there initial support right away for that?
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:35.039
Because I don't think a lot of EMDR is available through apps like we're seeing with other things.
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:36.799
Well, yeah, look, here's the problem.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.400
Yeah, that's a that's a great point.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:51.839
And so here, when I I finished all of this EMDR training with these uh 50 psychologists, great ladies, my God, the Ukrainian women are like the toughest mofo women in the world, man.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.480
These guys are not giving up, they're not gonna lose, they are gonna go right to the mat.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:58.400
Amazing people.
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:15.119
So I finished it, and uh by my my like my my uh the lady who was like showing me around, and then she would take me to the you know to the um the uh the cellar when the air raids would went up and the bombings happened, and she was great and so brave.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:19.119
And she said, Paul, you know, she's a colonel, a 29-year-old colonel.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.359
Uh and she said, Paul, you know, yeah, you've trained 50 um uh EMDR people now, and they can go into the front lines and do the EMDR.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.160
We don't need 50, we need 5,000.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.599
And that is when I got the idea of the app.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:46.720
We don't have time, we don't have time for 100,000 plus soldiers, millions of domestically displaced people inside Ukraine, 5 million uh refugees outside of Ukraine.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:33:13.200
There are 100 million refugees in the world right now, and Ukraine is absolutely 100% super focused that they do not want to have a repeat to what happened to the veterans in the United States with runaway homelessness, mental illness, domestic abuse, uh, and uh unemployment, and suicide.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:21.839
You know, but some of the there's more Americans have died by suicide in America than what that were killed in uh Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.400
Ukraine does not want to do that.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.400
So, my primary purpose for doing this was to have something in Ukrainian.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:38.079
The app is in 10 languages now, uh, because we have got we've got 10 million refugees in Sudan right now, 10 million in one country.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:46.000
So, altogether, way north of 100 million refugees, there are so many refugees from Russia and Ukraine and Barcelona.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:51.599
Spain's been great to uh allow these people to come and try to find a home to get asylum.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.880
And Ukrainians are so damn talented, right?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:01.039
They're so sharp, they're such amazing people, and they've been given such a raw deal from Russia.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:15.039
And so I believe this and I just last weekend I trained another 160 uh psychologists on Zoom uh through another colonel in the army.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:25.440
And so that they're really embracing it because they know there's no time, they don't have enough therapists in Ukraine, they do not have enough psychiatrists.
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.079
This is done with me as an audio guide.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.760
I wrote, I spent months writing the audio guide myself.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:39.920
It is not you know self-administered, it's guided by me in my voice, uh, in um nine different uh areas.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.440
And uh it is a protocol, it's a specific protocol, right?
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.679
I do it as the protocol, right?
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.480
And so um, you know, it's not just you know how you're feeling, it is a it's a disciplined protocol.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.840
And so I believe it is uh it's time has come.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.360
It's time has come.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:04.480
We have more refugees right now in the world than there were in World War II at the end.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:22.000
Yeah, and that always comes up where we hear about the need, and then something like this becomes available, which can provide something, you know, EMDR for so many, and then it seems like there's kind of like a yo-yo back and forth, but then it's like, well, can this do what it needs to do?
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.599
There's no person there.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.719
So I always feel like that happens where we get into this this spot, and you seem to be like, look, this is a need, and here's something that can help with that.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:49.599
Because I feel like that happens so often where we say there's not enough, there's the resources aren't there, now we can do this, but then people kind of want to tug back and be like, Well, no, we just need to have more people do it, or we need to have the resources to make it like more people can learn how to get trained in it.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:56.400
Not everyone jumps on board when it comes to like an app or a digital therapeutic tool that can be used.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:57.760
Um, any thoughts on that?
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.239
Because I think that's a good thing.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.880
Well, that's right.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:05.840
I mean, I think that I think it was like Schopenhauer, who said that any new any idea is always going to be met with contempt and then it becomes accepted.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:11.360
You know, there's always that that that process of contempt to acceptance for any new idea.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.239
That's the first thing.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:23.039
The second thing is, like we talked about a minute ago, 95% of people drop out of talk therapy in the first 52 weeks, right?
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.559
That is a 95% failure rate, right?
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.880
Uh what is going on here, right?
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:38.320
And so why are we not talking about the failure of talk therapy instead of you know uh questioning why you know EMDR is is is reasonable.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:37:03.360
And if it's a protocol and if it's guided by me, and I spent months doing it based on hundreds of uh EMDR treatments I've done, plus you know, it it having to explain this in a foreign language to you know 50 highly trained psychologists in Ukraine really makes me have to really focus on you know being precise about what I'm saying and what I'm doing and what I'm thinking about.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:11.119
And so that was a really great event for me to be able to focus my mind on what in the hell is actually being done here in very simple language.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:16.320
And so I just think that I think that EMDR will overtake talk therapy in five years.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.239
I'm completely convinced.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:29.840
And what would you say, how would you describe to someone who they might be able to imagine when they go to a counseling session or a therapy session what that might look like?
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.920
How do you explain what an EMDR session is like?
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:40.559
Do you think most people have an idea of what that is to be there and sitting in that?
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:47.280
Uh what would you say to people who are of like no idea they're like you what is this is there some tool or instrument being used?
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:47.679
Yeah.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:38:03.360
How would you explain like a just and I'm not asking for like the whole time and treatment or the whole sessions, but just in general, like what would someone expect when they are in an EMDR session versus some other modalities of treatment?
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.760
Yeah, you so you're sitting right across from each other, maybe you're sitting one and a half feet away.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:22.880
It is a relationship, it's not like this distant uh, you know, uh, you know, the the the avoidance at all cost of any you know transference or counter-transference in a therapist, you know, session where the therapist has to be arm's length and so forth, and so on.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.320
It is a relationship.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:29.360
Um, number one, number two, uh the person is uh conscious at all times.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.360
The person is a hundred percent with the program.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.760
This has got nothing to do with hypnosis.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:39:03.760
Number three, uh, the person um initially, as we do, like maybe one and a half minutes of eye movement, some tears, and oh wow, I just remembered something, and it's not connected, but it this happened as well, and then we get a timeline, and then we get uh uh this happened to me in this order, and we we look for words and we keep it very simple, it is not talk therapy, simple.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.840
All of talk therapy, uh EMDR is coming from the heart.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.320
We are looking at coming from the heart.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:17.920
What are these ancient emotions and and events that no longer are appropriate for an adult?
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:34.320
How do we re-examine our past beliefs about ourselves in the light of being a grown adult in a safe space uh with a trained person uh who has written books on this and has done this with hundreds of people?
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:46.000
And we can eventually get to maybe four, six, eight hours uh of reconciliation and peace of mind with understanding wow, that happened to me.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.920
Uh the beliefs I had about myself just are true.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:57.760
Uh wow, I I I can uh trust my intuition, I can trust my own self, I can trust myself again.
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:02.639
Um, I I I can uh I can maintain boundaries with people.
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.119
I can get, I can stay in my body.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.559
That comes up a lot.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:12.880
Sexual abuse survivors disassociate from their bodies, and the EMDR allows people to come back in their bodies.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.119
Very common, uh, what I see.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:20.000
And so uh in in in almost all cases, it is a joyous end.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:25.840
And and I don't want to see a person after five or six sessions, like I'll be their friend, but I don't want to see them again.
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.400
I don't want to see them 50 times in a row.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:30.320
I want them to go away.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.440
I want them to be happy and finish uh the process.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.840
And it does tend to work after six, eight, ten hours.
00:40:39.440 --> 00:41:03.280
So one one thing I want to ask before we wrap up is I think this is a great, I guess like an elevator pitch I'm asking you for a clinician who might be a skeptic or uh individual who's not sure about EMDR, doesn't know if this is gonna be right for them, or they they're not sure of it.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:12.400
Like, how would you speak to them as what you're seeing and experiencing with EMDR?
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:13.920
Like what would you say to them?
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:20.880
You give your your chance to say something about what you've noticed, your experience, all stuff that you've done, the work.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:31.840
How would you try to just talk with them about what they might not be recognizing or what they might not be seeing as far as what the potential for EMDR is?
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.760
Well, yeah, my app is called iMover, so I-M-O-V-E-R.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.440
You can go on there and look at the uh introduction for free.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.880
You can go on uh into the addiction area for free.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.119
I made it super, super cheap.
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.960
It's ridiculously it's eight, eight dollars or something, some crazy number.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.159
Uh, you know, uh talk therapy is 150.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:19.519
Uh and I would say if you're if talk therapy is not working, if you have a constant broken record of shame and fear and anxiety and and um sadness and anger going round and around and around, uh and you feel like events in the past uh haunt you and you can't get rid of them, and you keep revisiting them and you're hyper-alert and hyper-vigilant, give EMDR a chance.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:25.039
Because you know, we got the Pentagon that spends billions of dollars on this, right?
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:36.320
UK Ministry of Defense, Australian Ministry of Defense, Canadian Ministry of Defense, number one uh use for uh number one treatment for PTSD uh EMDR.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.440
Uh and you have the National Institutes of Health saying the same thing.
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:43.920
You have American Psychiatric U Association, American Psychological Association.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:45.599
I have seen it with my own eyes.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.320
The Ukrainian army invited me to the Ukraine to train their psychologists.
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:55.360
They are in the cutting edge of war right now, like no other country in the world.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.159
And they see EMDR as a way out for PTSD for their soldiers.
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:02.320
Thank you for that.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:18.400
I think that's gonna be a a great thing for people to hear because I imagine there is some of that going, and you mentioned it some from the criticism to skepticism to people not being a fan of it, not liking it, and just to hear about your experiences, a chance to go on the app.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:23.519
I know I went on it uh and did the first exercise, and I was gonna What was your experience?
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:24.320
Tell me.
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:26.000
I like it was different.
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:43.360
You know, I've I've been looking at a bunch of different apps because just there's a lot of apps for a lot of things with addiction and recovery and everything from you know craving logs and did it give you some sense of a peace of mind or a sense of uh relief?
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.679
It gave me a lot of slowing down.
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:52.400
Um, I think it it helped to sort of slow things down versus normally I like it.
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:52.880
I like it.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.440
I like a lot of apps try to engage with you, like to kind of keep you doing something, right?
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.679
And this one sort of kind of was one to sit with without feeling like there was a lot to then.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.360
Yeah, I like that.
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.159
I really like that.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.199
That's a really good insight.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:16.480
Yes, so I'm gonna try some other parts of it, but so far I was when I saw that it was available and there were some parts of it you could try.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.760
It's one of the things I did before you know hopping on and talking with you.
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:31.119
Yeah, so we have uh EMDR for soldiers, refugees, uh, sexual abuse, uh, burnout, uh, transition, uh escaping the narcissist, and addiction.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.239
Yeah, a lot of a lot of amazing topics.
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:35.599
So thank you for that.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:46.400
All right, uh, this has been a great conversation based on everything we've talked about, anything that you've got going on, what would be a final message you'd like to leave with listeners?
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.880
We are designed to heal.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:54.719
All too often we are in our own self-constructed prisons.
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.199
Pick up the key, it's right in front of you.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.920
Open up the door, uh, you can do it.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:01.199
I love that.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:07.039
I don't think everyone had anyone really say uh one of the important messages we are designed to heal.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.599
I think that is really, really important.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:10.480
Thank you for sharing that.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:11.119
Promise.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:12.400
I see it all the time.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.119
Yeah.
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.280
Well, I appreciate you being on the podcast.
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.920
We will let people know where they can connect with you, learn more about what you're doing.
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:28.159
They can find links to download the app and learn more about EMDR, but I do want to thank you for jumping on the show and talking to me today.
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:28.960
Thank you.
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.639
Uh another Midwestern German.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.960
So, yeah, have a great day.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.480
One quick thing before you go.
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:41.119
If you've gotten value from Paul's episode, from this one or any other one, the best thing you can do is leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:42.880
I'm not asking for anything elaborate.
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.159
Tap the stars, write one sentence about what the show means to you.
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.679
It helps more people in the behavioral health and recovery space find us.
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:51.679
I appreciate you more than you know.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.719
You've been listening to Talking Addiction and Recovery with Andrew J.
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.440
Dreyer.
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:05.920
We're so glad you've joined us and invite you to connect further with the show and these topics at www.andrewjdryer.com.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.119
That's andrewjsc r e-i r.com.
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:18.719
You can also email us directly at talkingaddiction and recovery at gmail.com and connect on social media.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:28.079
Instagram at talkingaddiction and recovery, Facebook, Talking Addiction and Recovery Podcast, and Twitter at talkar underscore podcast.
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:32.639
To stay connected and never miss an episode, be sure to like, rate, and subscribe.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.360
Until next time, friends, let's keep talking addiction and recovery.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:04.160
EMDR and the Future of Healing, featuring Paul Schulte.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:18.320
Paul Schulte, EMDR specialist and former finance executive, explores the growing role of eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing in treating trauma, PTSD, addiction, and other mental health concerns.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:29.679
Drawing from his experience working with clients across multiple countries and languages, Paul explains how EMDR seeks to help individuals process traumatic memories that may remain emotionally unresolved.
00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:41.439
He discusses why he believes EMDR offers advantages over traditional talk therapy for many trauma-related conditions, and predicts that it will continue to expand significantly in the coming years.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:54.799
The conversation explores the neuroscience behind trauma, including the relationship between emotional and cognitive processing, and how EMDR aims to help individuals integrate difficult experiences into a coherent personal narrative.
00:00:55.600 --> 00:01:05.120
Paul describes recurring themes he has observed among clients from diverse cultural backgrounds, noting similarities in emotional healing processes across languages and countries.
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:12.799
Discussion also examines the role of grief, self-forgiveness, acceptance, and recovery from shame and trauma treatment.
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Paul shares his work supporting mental health professionals in Ukraine following the Russian invasion, including training psychologists to address the anticipated wave of trauma-related disorders among soldiers and civilians.
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These experiences contributed to the development of the iMover app, a digital platform designed to increase access to EMDR-based interventions.
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:42.640
Available in multiple languages, the app includes programs addressing PTSD, addiction, burnout, sexual trauma, and recovery from narcissistic relationships.
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:50.879
This episode concludes with a broader conversation about hope, resilience, and the belief that healing remains possible even after profound trauma.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.040
This is Talking Addiction and Recovery, the podcast talking.
00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.560
You've guessed it, all about addiction and recovery.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:04.239
Join your host, licensed professional counselor Andrew J.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:14.879
Dreyer, as he and his guests break down recovery topics with raw honesty, delving into deep conversations around the topics of substance abuse, mental health, and gambling.
00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:22.080
We intend to meet individuals where they are on their own personal journey of recovery with dignity, respect, and compassion.
00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:24.960
We'll do more than talk addiction and recovery.
00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:26.800
We'll explore it.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:28.560
We're glad you've joined us.
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:32.879
Here with today's episode, your host, Andrew Treyer.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:06.400
He spent 22 years as an international banker across Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Singapore before retraining through UCLA School of Family Medicine.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:14.639
Over the past two decades, he has helped hundreds of people recover from trauma, PTSD, addiction, sexual abuse, narcissistic abuse, and burnout.
00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:28.000
He has written five books on mental health, taught at 11 universities across four continents, and last year spent two months training 50 Ukrainian Army psychologists in EMDR while working directly with soldiers and refugees.
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:35.919
He recently developed iMover, an app offering self-guided EMDR audio sessions for people who cannot easily access a therapist.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.400
He has been sober for 21 years.
00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:41.520
You can learn more about Paul in the podcast notes.
00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:53.439
Before we dive into Paul's episode, a reminder that Talking Addiction Recovery Podcast is now an approved continuing education provider through IPGGC, NASW, and NADAC.
00:03:53.919 --> 00:04:00.000
Meaning clinicians can earn CEUs just by listening to Select Podcast episodes and completing a short post-test.
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:01.680
This is all for free.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:08.000
No membership, no paid platform, just the content you're already consuming, working for your professional development.
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:13.439
You can head over to www.andrewjshrreyer.com for everything you need.
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.280
Now let's listen to Paul's episode.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.199
On this episode of Talking Addiction Recovery Podcast, I want to welcome Paul Schulte.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:20.160
Thanks for joining.
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:21.920
Thank you for letting me be here.
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:33.040
Yeah, we're going to talk about EMDR, something that is I wouldn't say going to be new to everyone who's listening, but it's going to be something different and could be very new to some people as well.
00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:45.120
There might be some people who have an idea of what it is, but for us to be able to kind of talk about your work in it and some of the things that you notice using that is going to be, I think, really beneficial to uh listeners.
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:49.040
Before we do that, though, can you just give a little bit of a background about yourself?
00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:59.519
Yeah, so I am from California and I have been living overseas for most of my life in Hong Kong, Singapore, Indonesia, Tokyo, and now I live in Barcelona.
00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:12.800
And I have been, you know, uh in the last 22 years, I've shifted my life completely into work with mental health, uh, trauma, PTSD, and addiction.
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:20.480
And uh, of course, I come from a family that has just been uh really uh destroyed by alcoholism.
00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:30.480
Unfortunately, both my parents were in the military, and my father had terrible, untreated, undiagnosed PTSD that was devastating for the family unit.
00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.680
So a lot of this work is near and dear to my heart.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:54.240
And I recently was in Ukraine um training uh 50 army psychologists in the Ukrainian army to help them get their handle uh on the you know PTSD problem that is uh you know going to ramp up uh with their 1.1 million man army.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:03.439
And and of course, it's also for the you know 5 million out uh refugees outside Ukraine, three and a half million inside Ukraine.
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:13.839
So I've been working with them closely, um getting uh up to speed and doing several you know multi-hour seminars with hundreds of psychologists recently.
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.639
So that's been a real big passion of mine.
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:17.519
Amazing.
00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.160
And you were in finance before coming up.
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.120
Yeah, I had a career in finance and I hated it.
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:34.560
And 23 years ago, I just said phoey and I quit and I went to UCLA and I got uh trained up in counseling and psychology and drug addiction treatment.
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:48.959
And then I discovered uh EMDR like uh eight and a half years ago uh when I was living in Singapore, and I did a lot of it on myself with a with a therapist, and it it blew me away how effective it was.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:51.040
And so it really piqued my interest.
00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:59.360
And since then, I have been qualified in four different uh entities and I've written a book on EMDR, it's an audio book.
00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:09.920
Uh, and I've been uh I've worked with hundreds of uh clients on um in doing EMDR with them on everything under the sun.
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:29.839
Um uh sexual assault, sexual abuse, incest, uh, PTSD, um escaping the narcissist, uh burnout, uh drug addiction, and uh many other issues, suicide of a family member, death of a family member, uh murder of a family member.
00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:42.079
And so it is something that I have found to be uh you know in my heart and in my mind, I will tell you this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:54.879
I have never seen anything more effective in treating uh uh depression, anxiety, uh chronic sadness, uh incapacity to deal with death of a loved one.
00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.879
I have never seen anything better than EMDR.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:11.759
So for someone who has no idea what that is or what we're referencing when they just hear us say EMDR, can you talk a little bit about what it is and just maybe some of the main highlights about what EMDR does?
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.639
Can you just give a little bit of like a simple kind of like high overview for people who are like, what are they referring to?
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:18.560
Yeah, sure, exactly, exactly.
00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:19.279
It's very simple.
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:24.319
It's eye movement, uh desensitization, and reprocessing.
00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:29.839
And what it is basically is just in a nutshell, uh, you know, sort of standing on one foot.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.919
Uh my left-handedness goes to my right side of my brain.
00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:43.360
And this part of the brain, you know, is largely in general responsible for story and narrative, imagination, pictures, right?
00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.919
Creating pictures of reality.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:53.759
And then my my right sidedness, you know, my left side of my brain is time, space, uh, people, place, thing.
00:08:53.919 --> 00:09:00.080
And what EMDR does when you go back and forth with your uh hand, and the hand movement is the most effective.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:10.240
You can have electronic uh pulses on your hands or electronic uh noises in your ear, alternate, alternating noises, hand movement is the most effective.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:28.320
You you get the right brain and left brain talking to each other, and what happens is you pull out ancient, unprocessed trauma that is basically memories and emotions that occurred during the time of the trauma.
00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:36.559
When we are in a traumatic situation, sexual assault, sexual abuse, you know, a battle, uh, physical abuse, whatever.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.799
We are in fight or flight mode.
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We know that as humans, we know what that means.
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And when we're in fight or flight mode, our frontal blank, uh, our front part of our brain, our pre-frontal cortex, is shut down.
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It's offline.
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And so these emotions and memories are stored in their primitive form during the time of the trauma.
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And that's why when we try to call these things up, we we get panicky because our front brain can't process it.
00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:08.080
These are pure emotions, and the timing is off, right?
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:13.600
And the sense of smell and taste and feeling and hearing are scrambled.
00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:28.480
And EMDR puts these things together in a coherent state to allow you to desensitize yourself, to get some distance from the initial trauma, because we have to let that trauma come forward.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:40.240
And EMDR does it in a very quick and uh calm way, and usually you require nothing more than maybe four to six hours of therapy.
00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:59.840
I believe talk therapy doesn't work because talk therapy is trying to access our logical part of our brain for a purely emotional, almost reptilian uh memorization of a traumatic event in the base of our brain in the amygdala, which they call our lizard brain.
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:07.679
And those two do not talk to each other, and that's why EMDR has come along and it has it does astonishing things.
00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:17.120
It is the number one recommended treatment for PTSD, according to so many of the um psychological and psychiatric associations.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:22.320
It's the number one uh recommended treatment for PTSD for the military.
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:27.200
That is what is going on only in the last, I would say, 10 years.
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.799
And you mentioned learning a lot about it overseas.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:45.519
I'm curious, did is there anything you've noticed in how other countries or where you learned about it and where you experienced it is different than how in the US we talk about it or treat it or use it?
00:11:45.679 --> 00:12:02.399
Is there any disconnect or is there anything that stands out into experiencing this in overseas versus what we may see here in the US with like the use of EMDR or how we talk about it or how often it's being used?
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.480
Anything you can throw out there?
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.559
Uh great question.
00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:18.480
Uh I was thinking about this yesterday because I was working with a woman um from uh Russia yesterday, and uh she's also uh part uh from a country in Africa.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:34.879
And so I have done this in uh Russian, Ukrainian, Spanish, uh, Portuguese, uh, and English, and I've done it with people on four continents, and I can tell you that we are all exactly the same.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:13:05.679
And when we come to certain points in the EMDR, it's astounding how the words that people use, and I ask them to tell me my Spanish is good, my Portuguese is good, my uh, you know, we we worked, uh I have a automatic translator for Ukrainian that I used, and I'm astounded by the not just similar, nearly identical words when people are going through these important uh uh segues into healing.
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.799
The words are identical so far in six languages.
00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:12.000
Astounding.
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:14.240
That's amazing.
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:25.200
Because I'm curious with part of it, is I watched another interview you did where the claim the thing that you said was um EMDR over talk therapy in the next five years.
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.759
That is one thing that you you mentioned.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:35.600
And one of the things that I'm curious about is when EMDR came about more, and people were like talking about it more.
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.440
There was I was seeing there's more trainings about it, there are more people doing it.
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:47.120
I still haven't seen a lot of people saying this is something they're gonna go learn to do, or this is what they're gonna provide.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:53.039
Sometimes I see places have like 20 clinicians, maybe there's one who does EMDR.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:53.919
Exactly.
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:55.679
Yeah, so that's where I'm crazy.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.720
That's where I'm wondering where that where is that disconnect.
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:00.000
I know, I know.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:00.639
Uh yeah.
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.159
Yeah, so I'll give an example.
00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:11.759
My nephew, um, he's a great guy, and he was in the Marines for nine years, and then he was a uh a homicide detective, great guy.
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:23.679
He was dealing with some PTSD, and he went to a uh three-month program in Southern California, and there was one EMDR specialist there, and the rest were top therapists.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:29.120
And he was talking about some very to be frank, he's a homicide detective.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:33.120
He was talking about very brutal, awful things humans do to each other.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.200
This is what homicide officers do, they investigate murder.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:43.279
And he was describing some stuff, and the therapist basically said, Oh, I have to give up and excuse myself on being triggered.
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.799
And you know, that's just not on.
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.360
That is not what we need to be doing here.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:53.279
Same thing with an SAS, which is British Special Forces guy I did EMDR with last week.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.360
Same thing happened to him with this therapist.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.559
She was triggered and said, People shouldn't do those things to each other.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:00.399
And it was like, Well, they do.
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:08.879
And you know, uh, why are we sitting here having to, you know, treat, you know, I'm being treated here, not you.
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:18.639
And so he told me the most effective thing that he did in that three months of uh of helping him with his PTSD was EMDR.
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:19.200
Right?
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:20.799
So I'm just gonna say that.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:28.159
Uh every major significant drug addiction treatment center is gonna have an EMDR specialist now.
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.559
Um so it's just starting to catch on.
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.000
But of course, talk therapists hate this because they're they're threatened.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:49.600
And so the talk therapy, you know, whatever uh, you know, masters in social work, clinical psychologists, they're they're very uh they're very threatened by the the extraordinary growth of this in a very short period of time.
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:50.960
That's what's going on here.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:55.759
What what has gotten the growth recently to really accelerate?
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.039
Is it the the research is catching up?
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.200
Is it the effects we're seeing is now showing?
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:14.879
Like, what is it that's kind of gotten it to sort of according to what you're what you're looking at is potentially outpace and you know it's gonna be in every program and it's gonna be more popular.
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:21.679
Like, what is behind the acceleration of interest or seeing the benefit of what EMDR does?
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:22.720
Anything they can share online.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.879
Yeah, I think I think I think you're right.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.440
I think everything you said is is is right on the money.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.360
I think that there's been a great deal of research.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:48.320
There's been peer-reviewed studies, there's been meta-studies, and you know, uh very professional, well-respected journals of the psychiatric and the psychological community, um, and even the the the the um NIH uh has done a lot of work on on uh EMDR.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.159
But I'll tell you what it is.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:58.240
There's been three or four big movie stars who come who came out and said, I did EMDR, and it was so helpful, I can't believe it.
00:16:58.720 --> 00:16:59.919
That is what is going on.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:12.720
I forget who it was, but she was she was um, you know, every time you go on Instagram, she comes up, oh, I did EMDR and it really saved my life and it was amazing, and my God, I I, you know, and so forth and so on.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.960
What happens with me, with probably half of the clients I've dealt with of the hundreds I've worked with, they will say, What was I doing?
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.000
What was I doing?
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:32.720
Having six years of of therapy, I just solved this big problem I was dealing with in six years of therapy in 10 hours, you know, and that is exactly my experience at least half the time.
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:42.000
Uh and so uh I think the celebrities, you know, they always say that um, you know, politics and science is is downstream of culture.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:55.200
And I think the the the culture of celebrity woke up everybody to say, wait a minute here, if these people are saying that it worked, uh, you know, and and they get a million views, right?
00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:58.799
Because and it was a it was a it was a female movie star.
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.279
We've seen that though throughout history, haven't we?
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:12.799
We've seen where it's like all of a sudden a celebrity talks about going to like meetings, and then all of a sudden it like seems like that, like over history, there's been some celebrities coming out about like substance use or mental health, exactly, exactly.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:39.279
And then all of a sudden it seems like that picks up as a like this is acceptable, or oh my goodness, someone who's a celebrity had the same issue I did, and like because then like you know, memoirs get written and yeah, movies get made, and all of a sudden it seems like this is so it's interesting that that is what's happening here, but also we've seen that throughout history a lot with different things related to mental health, substance use, and just behavioral health in general.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:48.960
Yeah, and and also something else very, very important too, and that's what got me really interested in it too, from a scientific point of view, because I've been teaching in universities for 24 years.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.559
I've taught at universities, you know, on four or five continents.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:04.480
And you know, what I was looking at was um uh research from military institutions and defense ministries, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, right?
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:12.559
The five eyes, all of those now point to P to EMDR as a sort of a go-to for PTSD for soldiers.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:15.599
And I was like, wow, something really important is happening here.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:29.759
And so you had the celebrities picking up on it, you had the militaries picking up on it for you know, millions of soldiers who came back from all very damaged from Afghanistan and from um uh Iraq and other parts of the world.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:37.279
And so I worked with many of these guys uh as veterans, uh, and it it has worked uh remarkably well.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.160
And I think that's a question that comes up is is EMDR for everyone?
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.799
Is it something that everyone could go to?
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:53.839
Because I think sometimes people talk about like anyone could go to a counselor and it's a it's a place where you can sit down, you can talk, you can get like get support.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:20:06.880
Is EMDR something that would fit anyone that is seeking some kind of support, whether it's substance use, trauma, mental health, whether it's relationship issues.
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:13.359
And we know trauma plays a role in often a lot of those things that are going on.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.440
So it kind of begs the question does EMDR work for everyone?
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:24.559
Or there are there's some times where someone would say EMDR is not appropriate for what you have going on.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:34.720
I think that's something that people might want to wonder if that's sort of how it can be used, or there are times where someone would say, like, this is not appropriate for you.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.160
Yeah, that's that that's a really uh great point.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:47.200
Uh you know, I'd like to turn it upside down, and I would like to ask you what percent of people finish 52 weeks uh uh uh top therapy?
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:48.880
Do you know what what percent?
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:50.880
Let's say what percent don't finish.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.160
Yeah, very low.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.519
Yeah, very low.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.799
Yeah, it's uh 5% finish.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:13.119
So if you want to be talking about somebody who is feeling better after you know 52 weeks, which is kind of a standard, like how are you doing after one year is a pretty good standard for any medical or psychological or psychiatric, you know, um you know, three months, you know, and then 12 months.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:17.680
And then 95% say, Oh, I stopped, it wasn't doing anything for me, so I stopped.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.880
And why did I stop?
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:20.240
It wasn't working.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:29.680
And so don't tell me that that talk therapy is the go-to, that CBT, everybody works for CBT, that you know, family systems, it works for them.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.359
Gestalt is is very traumatic, gestalt therapy.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:34.960
It doesn't work for everybody, right?
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:46.880
Um, and so so EMDR comes along and it is a fairly standard uh, you know, it's been looked at very carefully uh in in hundreds of journals now.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:48.559
It's been very well researched.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.279
It is it is a protocol, right?
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.359
It's an eight step protocol.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:59.519
And that's what I was teaching when I was in Ukraine with these uh RV psychologists.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.359
And uh I have to say to you that, you know, um uh I don't want to toot my horn.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:15.839
And I would definitely say if it didn't work in almost all cases, people were much, much better after four, six, ten hours.
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.920
Uh with some very heavy duty, very hardcore issues.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:25.200
Like I said, you know, sexual abuse, incest, rape, uh, sexual assault.
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.480
Uh my best friend was blown up in front of me in the battlefield in Ukraine.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.240
Uh my um my colleague didn't obey an order and he's dead, and I blame myself.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:42.880
Uh uh my sister committed suicide, and I called her the night before, and I feel responsible.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.559
You know, uh hardcore stuff, right?
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:57.759
And I would will give you my own lived experience of working with these people that in most cases there's a great deal of relief because what are we doing?
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:06.079
We're bringing these primitive, uh, ancient emotions uh out uh carefully and calmly.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:14.880
Uh and when we do that, the fear goes down automatically because we're giving it its human size, right?
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.559
We're putting it out there.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.839
Desensitization, I like the word detachment.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.759
I like the word becoming objective.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.880
It's the first time in many people's lives they will say, Oh, that's what happened.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.160
Uh that's what happened.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.839
It wasn't what I thought.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.799
It wasn't how I thought about it, it wasn't how I viewed it.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.680
And and it feels better that I understand what happened because I've never been able to do that in talk therapy.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:47.599
Because why the reptile brain does not talk to the logical brain, they don't talk to each other, right?
00:23:47.680 --> 00:24:03.680
And an EMDR is is sideways, it's not from the back to front, it's sideways, and it's integrating these various parts of the brain that integrate taste, feel, smell, sound, and time together in an event.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:16.799
And automatically we should we should kind of just intuitively as humans, wow, now I have a narrative, now I have a story, now I'm calmer because I understand what happened.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.359
And now what am I gonna do with that?
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:26.480
Now that I'm sitting here as an adult in a calm space, in a safe space, what am I gonna do about this?
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:28.720
What am I gonna believe about myself?
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:34.240
For me, it's all about what am I gonna believe about myself that was not true before?
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.240
Or what belief did I pick up during the trauma that is no longer true or was never true?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.519
People say, I'm a coward, it was my fault.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.880
I should have done more.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.799
I didn't do enough to get away.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.079
I liked it, a big one, right?
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:59.440
Um I uh uh you know, oh my my father said I was a coward, so I must be a coward in this circumstance.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:08.720
And so we look to the the event to see what did we come to pick up as beliefs about ourselves, then as adults we say that's not true anymore.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.039
That just oh, in fact, you know what?
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:13.920
I hear it 80% of the time.
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:20.079
That belief I had about myself for 15, 20, 30 years was never true.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:47.839
Which also can last, and I think that's one of the things I heard about you in the interview that you did, which was like there's this traumatic event, but there's also this ongoing experience where like we kind of look at this event that happens, or this events, but also like how it becomes an ongoing experience of how someone feels, even five, ten, twenty years after that that trauma we used to see it as like an event.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:26:20.079
I I tend to see it more as like an experience that that can continue for there's really no ending necessarily to say like this is how long it lasts, but I think we used to see it as like this event, and we focus so much on the event itself, and then an event usually has like a start and end, or like it it is this thing, but then the trauma becomes something that someone experiences ongoing and and for so long, and it but could also be experiencing traumatic events ongoing.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:21.759
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.759
I I would say I like that a lot.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:31.680
I I would say that uh unprocessed trauma is an ongoing an ongoing experience, yeah.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:44.079
And not only that, it's even more of a freak show and more alarming because our brain, the different parts of our brain absorb our hearing and our sight and our smell and our sense of taste.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:27:00.480
And so when we remember traumas, we remember them because oh, I saw a face that looked like the guy that assaulted me, or that looked like the my father who beat me up, or oh, that smell was what I smelled in the battlefield, or oh my god, that noise makes me think back of the event.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:11.920
And so you have all this like this this uh uh a jumble uh of the five senses, and time is floating around, and so it's an experience.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:19.279
I would submit to you that EMDR turns that jumbled experience into an event.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.359
That is what EMDR does, it turns it into a single event.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.759
This happened to me, and when I can say this happened to me, aha.
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:36.720
Uh, this happened to me, I felt this, and I uh believe this about myself.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:43.200
And after we can talk about that for a few minutes, people will say, wait a minute, that doesn't that doesn't sound right.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.480
That what I came to believe about myself isn't doesn't sound right.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.319
That that I don't think that's true.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:56.960
Well, this this this is what happened to me, seems to be like an event that does have a start and end that can be placed in a time.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:03.359
This is who I am, seems to be something that just carries with you forever, then.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.880
Well, that's right.
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:10.960
And and EMDR breaks that breaks that that that gets rid of that broken record.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.839
Yeah, we go around and around and around, and by the way, hey, you know what?
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.039
I'm used to that broken record, I like the broken record.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.000
And you know, one of my mentors said, Well, unfortunately, you know, the needle's upside down and it's really awful music.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.240
And do you are you sure that's true?
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.400
Are you sure that that that song is you know is your song?
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.079
And that's what EMDR does.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:51.279
It asks us to um be get into a uh a little bit of a discomfort zone and uh and and think uh uh uh about how am I going to reinterpret and reprocess my past in terms of what I have come to believe about myself.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:29:02.400
But when you do the eye movement, there's a blurring out of the fear and the sadness and the anger, right, and the uh fear, right?
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.319
What are we doing in EMDR?
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:05.440
We're grieving.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.079
EMDR is an emotional process of grieving, and what is grief?
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:20.880
Grief is a complex emotion of sadness and uh fear and anger, and the underlying foundation is shame, and that is what EMDR does.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:39.119
It it processes those emotions, and we get to emotions of acceptance, and we get to emotions of boundaries that I can take care of by boundaries, I can accept what happened, I can um come to forgive myself, big one.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:45.200
And then the last thing, and this is where I tell you, I swear, my friend, I've seen this in six languages.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.720
We you could even get to a point of not forgiving.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.759
This is not about forgiveness, forgetting.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:03.200
We want to come to a point of maybe some pity for the oppressor, because that is really the highest calling of humanity, is to move on in life.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.680
You know, we don't forgive our oppressor, we find pity for them.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:16.319
And I swear to you, I have come to that word in six languages, and it's crazy how humans will arrive at that.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.039
It's not forgiveness, it's not uh understanding, it's not empathy, it's different, it's pity.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:35.759
I'm sorry you're like that, I'm not like that, I'm moving on, and that's where we want to get with trauma self-forgiveness, acceptance, self-trust, and a little bit of pity.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.799
And that's what EMDR tends to do in this process called grieving.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:47.200
And one thing you did, which seems very unique, is you create an app for EMDR.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:48.880
Yeah.
00:30:49.119 --> 00:31:02.240
I'm and I'm very curious, was there was there any pushback to that or any challenges to being able to provide that through an app, considering what EMDR does?
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.599
I can imagine some people at first may have been like, well, how do you do this through an app?
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.720
Like you're like, how do you do this through that?
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.599
Was when you had that idea or when you created, was there anyone that was telling you, hey, you can't do EMDR through an app?
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.480
That's got to be in person, that's got to be with somebody.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:29.279
Um I was very curious because I I downloaded the app, I did the first exercise, I kind of went through it, and I was just curious, was there initial support right away for that?
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:35.039
Because I don't think a lot of EMDR is available through apps like we're seeing with other things.
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:36.799
Well, yeah, look, here's the problem.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.400
Yeah, that's a that's a great point.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:51.839
And so here, when I I finished all of this EMDR training with these uh 50 psychologists, great ladies, my God, the Ukrainian women are like the toughest mofo women in the world, man.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.480
These guys are not giving up, they're not gonna lose, they are gonna go right to the mat.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:58.400
Amazing people.
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:15.119
So I finished it, and uh by my my like my my uh the lady who was like showing me around, and then she would take me to the you know to the um the uh the cellar when the air raids would went up and the bombings happened, and she was great and so brave.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:19.119
And she said, Paul, you know, she's a colonel, a 29-year-old colonel.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.359
Uh and she said, Paul, you know, yeah, you've trained 50 um uh EMDR people now, and they can go into the front lines and do the EMDR.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.160
We don't need 50, we need 5,000.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.599
And that is when I got the idea of the app.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:46.720
We don't have time, we don't have time for 100,000 plus soldiers, millions of domestically displaced people inside Ukraine, 5 million uh refugees outside of Ukraine.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:33:13.200
There are 100 million refugees in the world right now, and Ukraine is absolutely 100% super focused that they do not want to have a repeat to what happened to the veterans in the United States with runaway homelessness, mental illness, domestic abuse, uh, and uh unemployment, and suicide.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:21.839
You know, but some of the there's more Americans have died by suicide in America than what that were killed in uh Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.400
Ukraine does not want to do that.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.400
So, my primary purpose for doing this was to have something in Ukrainian.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:38.079
The app is in 10 languages now, uh, because we have got we've got 10 million refugees in Sudan right now, 10 million in one country.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:46.000
So, altogether, way north of 100 million refugees, there are so many refugees from Russia and Ukraine and Barcelona.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:51.599
Spain's been great to uh allow these people to come and try to find a home to get asylum.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.880
And Ukrainians are so damn talented, right?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:01.039
They're so sharp, they're such amazing people, and they've been given such a raw deal from Russia.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:15.039
And so I believe this and I just last weekend I trained another 160 uh psychologists on Zoom uh through another colonel in the army.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:25.440
And so that they're really embracing it because they know there's no time, they don't have enough therapists in Ukraine, they do not have enough psychiatrists.
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.079
This is done with me as an audio guide.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.760
I wrote, I spent months writing the audio guide myself.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:39.920
It is not you know self-administered, it's guided by me in my voice, uh, in um nine different uh areas.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.440
And uh it is a protocol, it's a specific protocol, right?
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.679
I do it as the protocol, right?
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.480
And so um, you know, it's not just you know how you're feeling, it is a it's a disciplined protocol.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.840
And so I believe it is uh it's time has come.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.360
It's time has come.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:04.480
We have more refugees right now in the world than there were in World War II at the end.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:22.000
Yeah, and that always comes up where we hear about the need, and then something like this becomes available, which can provide something, you know, EMDR for so many, and then it seems like there's kind of like a yo-yo back and forth, but then it's like, well, can this do what it needs to do?
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.599
There's no person there.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.719
So I always feel like that happens where we get into this this spot, and you seem to be like, look, this is a need, and here's something that can help with that.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:49.599
Because I feel like that happens so often where we say there's not enough, there's the resources aren't there, now we can do this, but then people kind of want to tug back and be like, Well, no, we just need to have more people do it, or we need to have the resources to make it like more people can learn how to get trained in it.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:56.400
Not everyone jumps on board when it comes to like an app or a digital therapeutic tool that can be used.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:57.760
Um, any thoughts on that?
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.239
Because I think that's a good thing.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.880
Well, that's right.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:05.840
I mean, I think that I think it was like Schopenhauer, who said that any new any idea is always going to be met with contempt and then it becomes accepted.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:11.360
You know, there's always that that that process of contempt to acceptance for any new idea.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.239
That's the first thing.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:23.039
The second thing is, like we talked about a minute ago, 95% of people drop out of talk therapy in the first 52 weeks, right?
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.559
That is a 95% failure rate, right?
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.880
Uh what is going on here, right?
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:38.320
And so why are we not talking about the failure of talk therapy instead of you know uh questioning why you know EMDR is is is reasonable.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:37:03.360
And if it's a protocol and if it's guided by me, and I spent months doing it based on hundreds of uh EMDR treatments I've done, plus you know, it it having to explain this in a foreign language to you know 50 highly trained psychologists in Ukraine really makes me have to really focus on you know being precise about what I'm saying and what I'm doing and what I'm thinking about.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:11.119
And so that was a really great event for me to be able to focus my mind on what in the hell is actually being done here in very simple language.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:16.320
And so I just think that I think that EMDR will overtake talk therapy in five years.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.239
I'm completely convinced.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:29.840
And what would you say, how would you describe to someone who they might be able to imagine when they go to a counseling session or a therapy session what that might look like?
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.920
How do you explain what an EMDR session is like?
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:40.559
Do you think most people have an idea of what that is to be there and sitting in that?
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:47.280
Uh what would you say to people who are of like no idea they're like you what is this is there some tool or instrument being used?
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:47.679
Yeah.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:38:03.360
How would you explain like a just and I'm not asking for like the whole time and treatment or the whole sessions, but just in general, like what would someone expect when they are in an EMDR session versus some other modalities of treatment?
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.760
Yeah, you so you're sitting right across from each other, maybe you're sitting one and a half feet away.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:22.880
It is a relationship, it's not like this distant uh, you know, uh, you know, the the the avoidance at all cost of any you know transference or counter-transference in a therapist, you know, session where the therapist has to be arm's length and so forth, and so on.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.320
It is a relationship.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:29.360
Um, number one, number two, uh the person is uh conscious at all times.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.360
The person is a hundred percent with the program.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.760
This has got nothing to do with hypnosis.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:39:03.760
Number three, uh, the person um initially, as we do, like maybe one and a half minutes of eye movement, some tears, and oh wow, I just remembered something, and it's not connected, but it this happened as well, and then we get a timeline, and then we get uh uh this happened to me in this order, and we we look for words and we keep it very simple, it is not talk therapy, simple.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.840
All of talk therapy, uh EMDR is coming from the heart.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.320
We are looking at coming from the heart.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:17.920
What are these ancient emotions and and events that no longer are appropriate for an adult?
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:34.320
How do we re-examine our past beliefs about ourselves in the light of being a grown adult in a safe space uh with a trained person uh who has written books on this and has done this with hundreds of people?
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:46.000
And we can eventually get to maybe four, six, eight hours uh of reconciliation and peace of mind with understanding wow, that happened to me.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.920
Uh the beliefs I had about myself just are true.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:57.760
Uh wow, I I I can uh trust my intuition, I can trust my own self, I can trust myself again.
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:02.639
Um, I I I can uh I can maintain boundaries with people.
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.119
I can get, I can stay in my body.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.559
That comes up a lot.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:12.880
Sexual abuse survivors disassociate from their bodies, and the EMDR allows people to come back in their bodies.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.119
Very common, uh, what I see.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:20.000
And so uh in in in almost all cases, it is a joyous end.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:25.840
And and I don't want to see a person after five or six sessions, like I'll be their friend, but I don't want to see them again.
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.400
I don't want to see them 50 times in a row.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:30.320
I want them to go away.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.440
I want them to be happy and finish uh the process.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.840
And it does tend to work after six, eight, ten hours.
00:40:39.440 --> 00:41:03.280
So one one thing I want to ask before we wrap up is I think this is a great, I guess like an elevator pitch I'm asking you for a clinician who might be a skeptic or uh individual who's not sure about EMDR, doesn't know if this is gonna be right for them, or they they're not sure of it.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:12.400
Like, how would you speak to them as what you're seeing and experiencing with EMDR?
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:13.920
Like what would you say to them?
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:20.880
You give your your chance to say something about what you've noticed, your experience, all stuff that you've done, the work.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:31.840
How would you try to just talk with them about what they might not be recognizing or what they might not be seeing as far as what the potential for EMDR is?
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.760
Well, yeah, my app is called iMover, so I-M-O-V-E-R.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.440
You can go on there and look at the uh introduction for free.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.880
You can go on uh into the addiction area for free.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.119
I made it super, super cheap.
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.960
It's ridiculously it's eight, eight dollars or something, some crazy number.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.159
Uh, you know, uh talk therapy is 150.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:19.519
Uh and I would say if you're if talk therapy is not working, if you have a constant broken record of shame and fear and anxiety and and um sadness and anger going round and around and around, uh and you feel like events in the past uh haunt you and you can't get rid of them, and you keep revisiting them and you're hyper-alert and hyper-vigilant, give EMDR a chance.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:25.039
Because you know, we got the Pentagon that spends billions of dollars on this, right?
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:36.320
UK Ministry of Defense, Australian Ministry of Defense, Canadian Ministry of Defense, number one uh use for uh number one treatment for PTSD uh EMDR.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.440
Uh and you have the National Institutes of Health saying the same thing.
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:43.920
You have American Psychiatric U Association, American Psychological Association.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:45.599
I have seen it with my own eyes.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.320
The Ukrainian army invited me to the Ukraine to train their psychologists.
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:55.360
They are in the cutting edge of war right now, like no other country in the world.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.159
And they see EMDR as a way out for PTSD for their soldiers.
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:02.320
Thank you for that.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:18.400
I think that's gonna be a a great thing for people to hear because I imagine there is some of that going, and you mentioned it some from the criticism to skepticism to people not being a fan of it, not liking it, and just to hear about your experiences, a chance to go on the app.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:23.519
I know I went on it uh and did the first exercise, and I was gonna What was your experience?
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:24.320
Tell me.
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:26.000
I like it was different.
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:43.360
You know, I've I've been looking at a bunch of different apps because just there's a lot of apps for a lot of things with addiction and recovery and everything from you know craving logs and did it give you some sense of a peace of mind or a sense of uh relief?
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.679
It gave me a lot of slowing down.
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:52.400
Um, I think it it helped to sort of slow things down versus normally I like it.
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:52.880
I like it.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.440
I like a lot of apps try to engage with you, like to kind of keep you doing something, right?
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.679
And this one sort of kind of was one to sit with without feeling like there was a lot to then.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.360
Yeah, I like that.
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.159
I really like that.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.199
That's a really good insight.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:16.480
Yes, so I'm gonna try some other parts of it, but so far I was when I saw that it was available and there were some parts of it you could try.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.760
It's one of the things I did before you know hopping on and talking with you.
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:31.119
Yeah, so we have uh EMDR for soldiers, refugees, uh, sexual abuse, uh, burnout, uh, transition, uh escaping the narcissist, and addiction.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.239
Yeah, a lot of a lot of amazing topics.
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:35.599
So thank you for that.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:46.400
All right, uh, this has been a great conversation based on everything we've talked about, anything that you've got going on, what would be a final message you'd like to leave with listeners?
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.880
We are designed to heal.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:54.719
All too often we are in our own self-constructed prisons.
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.199
Pick up the key, it's right in front of you.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.920
Open up the door, uh, you can do it.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:01.199
I love that.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:07.039
I don't think everyone had anyone really say uh one of the important messages we are designed to heal.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.599
I think that is really, really important.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:10.480
Thank you for sharing that.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:11.119
Promise.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:12.400
I see it all the time.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.119
Yeah.
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.280
Well, I appreciate you being on the podcast.
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.920
We will let people know where they can connect with you, learn more about what you're doing.
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:28.159
They can find links to download the app and learn more about EMDR, but I do want to thank you for jumping on the show and talking to me today.
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:28.960
Thank you.
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.639
Uh another Midwestern German.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.960
So, yeah, have a great day.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.480
One quick thing before you go.
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:41.119
If you've gotten value from Paul's episode, from this one or any other one, the best thing you can do is leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:42.880
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Tap the stars, write one sentence about what the show means to you.
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.679
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00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:51.679
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00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.719
You've been listening to Talking Addiction and Recovery with Andrew J.
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.440
Dreyer.
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:05.920
We're so glad you've joined us and invite you to connect further with the show and these topics at www.andrewjdryer.com.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.119
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00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:18.719
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