Relationship Lessons from The Valley Season 3 with Fellow Therapist Kate Stephens

Dr. Elana Hoffman: Hello and welcome to Talk Relationship to Me, the show that explores some of the most important relationship topics. I'm Dr. Elana Hoffman. As a clinical psychologist, I focus on all things relationships, from dating to sex to long-term relationships to divorce. I cover it all. I use my professional lens as a psychologist as well as lived experience to cover these topics. Do you need to talk relationships? You're in the right place. On today's episode, I am joined again by Kate Stevens. Hi, Kate.
Kate Stephens: Hello!
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Thank you so much for coming back.
Kate Stephens: my god, thanks for having me.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: My pleasure. Last time you were here, we were discussing Summerhouse, right? That was the last time. I mean, that was wow. It feels like a very long time ago. It was not that long ago, but it that was wow. I mean, you know, we had a whole other season since then, like in the city started and ended since then. We finished the valley. We were just talking about House of Stasi. So We have lots to talk about and as always lots of relationship takeaways from all of this amazing content. So so excited to jump in.
Kate Stephens: my God. I know I feel like we have so much to talk about. And I like I just want to start this by saying Summer House consumed me so much that I bought a brick and was like, I have to start breaking my phone. My screen time was
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, that's
Kate Stephens: like 16 hours a day. Now part of that was the nanit like watch my kids sleep and stuff. But like not enough of that 16 hours a day was the nanit. And I was like,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: But let's be real, that was maybe like five minutes.
Kate Stephens: Five minutes, I know, it's like maybe an hour. And I was like, my god, I feel like I'm like bleeding through my eyeballs. And I will say I've been really loving bricking. It has like been this is like obviously not an ad, but like I've like thoroughly enjoyed like bricking my phone. I brick now for like sixteen hours a day. So I I really am
Dr. Elana Hoffman: That's amazing.
Kate Stephens: like off the internet and it's really refreshing.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: That is that good good for you. That is aspirational, honestly. I mean, I
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: used to use that, like the tomato, what's that add on for like the like it's something like the tomato timer or something that like you could use. It like an add on for Chrome that you could use to block access to like you couldn't you could only go on certain websites at certain times or you couldn't op I I used to use that in grad school for it was not effective. So so
Kate Stephens: I know, you can't even remember the name of it, so clearly it didn't work that well.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that sounds like in theory something that I definitely could use in my life, so
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Highly recommend. It's like sixty bucks and there's no subscription and you just tap your phone and that's it.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah, no that I think that that would be helpful for me and probably a lot of my clients, to be honest. Do do you do you ask do you talk to your clients about it? Are they helpful or do you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
Kate Stephens: all the time. All the time. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: mean there's so much so much to be distracted by these days that it is yeah.
Kate Stephens: And I I cause I just felt like with the summer house stuff, there was so much going on and there was so much information coming. It was like I would be in like a back-to-back sessions and I would come out and I would have like texts from people being like, Did you see? Did you see? Did you see? And I was like,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Right.
Kate Stephens: my God, this is so much stuff. And it was just like, then it turned into just like compulsively checking my phone all the time. Cause I was like, what did Weston Amanda do now? And
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Right. Right.
Kate Stephens: at the end of it, I just felt like truly like burnt out from it. And I was like, I don't feel present in my life. I just feel like like addicted to this stupid device. And so
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It was yeah, it was a lot well, 'cause not only do you have to well have to, but not only is there so much information to stay on top of, but then you have to talk to all your friends about it. Like you to talk you you had then
Kate Stephens: Right.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: like the conversation about it is so time consuming and it's like, wow, I have been talking about Summerhouse for weeks, months. I mean, just so much time. Yeah. I mean there
Kate Stephens: I do.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: it really is like but it's you know, it's like it's like friend drama. It's like d you know, did you hear this update about so and so? Like it really felt like it was just like w happening to my friends. That's what it really
Kate Stephens: I know.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: felt like.
Kate Stephens: I know. I felt that way too. And that's why it's been nice to like detox and like every you know, I still go on Instagram like every once in a while and it's nice to see them like I think the summer house cast the summer got a yacht trip on below deck. Like so I'm like watch. Cannot wait to watch. I think
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Mm, mm. I did see that. Amazing. Can't wait. Yes.
Kate Stephens: Sierra is dating what's his name, Shabuzi. And I'm I don't even know if that's true. That's like really alleged, like I don't d I've just seen a few things. But I support that. I don't know.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Okay. Interesting. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. See here I am breaking and I I I have more tea than you apparently.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Well, I did just see today that well, I guess it's a different show. I did just see today that Danania might not be returning to the valley. Did you see that?
Kate Stephens: No, because I've been wrecked. Really?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I mean it's not quite confirmed yet, but people are saying like there have been rumors about this before, but this is really like the sort of most it's been y you know, this is like the most likely it's been. So we'll see. I mean,
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I would not be surprised if that were the case.
Kate Stephens: No. No. No. But so like let's get into that. Because the whole reason we're here is to talk about the valley. And I mean, god do I have thoughts. But like,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yes.
Kate Stephens: starting with Danny and Nia, like, as a viewer, please return. I need to watch all of these.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I know. I know. So that's the thing. It's like I I it's so dark. I mean, it just is so dark and it's hard to watch. And I just need to see this continue to play out. And all the con you know, I mean, I think I mean I think if they were really trying to protect their marriage, then they should not return to the show. But I think that maybe they should not You know, I mean, maybe it would be helpful for them to or at least for Nia to like have some reflective you know, to ha to I mean, I'm sure she had to reflect all the comments, everything everyone has been saying about their marriage, about Danny. I mean, you know, so it makes sense that she's like, I'm not hearing any of this because she's so dedicated to it, but
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. Which like I have a lot of thoughts about because I think that there's like some corners of the internet that like sort of shame Nia for like sticking by Danny and all of it. And I actually don't see that as the most problematic part of of this whole entire thing. I'm very much like, you know what? Like, good for you for like trying to stand by him and at least saying to us like that you and him are trying to like make changes. Like I don't think that that's like terrible. Do I think it's actually possible for that to happen while you're on the show? Like probably not. Which is why
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: as a viewer, give it to me next season. But like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like you said, if they really do want to change things in their marriage, like they should get off the show. No,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. It is not good for them to be on the show. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: no, because Danny can't control his drinking, obviously, on the show. And,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: you know, they can sit here and say that he's he only gets like this every once in a while or it's not that big of a deal in their like real life. And it's like, okay, well if that's true, like, then you shouldn't be on the show. Like this is detrimental
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah.
Kate Stephens: to your marriage and probably your kids. Like, stop.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah. I thought it was I thought it was yeah, it was I thought it was really bad. And I really agreed with a lot of what Lala said to them and said to Danny and what Nia
Kate Stephens: Right.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: and you how Nia was having to parent and defend him and it was just it was just so hard, like the way he was what we saw. made h seems to you know, w a partner like that would make her life so much harder, right? I mean she already she's four kids and then she has to worry about what's gonna come out of his mouth or what he's gonna do or, you know, was he gonna g i you know, even that whole after party you know, thing at the wedding, well, we you know, it's okay to just have private time. Like I'm you know, we we we're a married couple, we can stay in. It's like that's not why you didn't want him to go to the after party. Like it just is hard to watch her rationalize and defend and she has to
Kate Stephens: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: though. I mean she's in that kind of survival mode if what we saw is any indication of their marriage, which think it is I mean it has to be. It just i like I mean unless unless he
Kate Stephens: It has to be the sample.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: stopped drink I mean truly like it could be even then though I cannot imagine that he's like a regulated person when he like gets stressed or angry. But certainly alcohol does not help. So that would be a step, I think, to stop
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: drinking.
Kate Stephens: say that I've I have admired about them as a couple up until this season is I've always thought that like everybody coming at them And this was largely led by Jax, which I think was a calculated move on his part because he's crazy. But like, I think they were they at least appeared to be like, if we have an issue with each other, like we aren't going to address it on camera, we're going to address it off camera together. And I really respected that because think about the fights that these all these different couples get in on camera and it's like, this can't be good, right? And
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like I think them making like this really explicit decision to like not do that and like appear united up until this year where things where Danny kinda blew the cover on that. Like I respected
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: that a lot. And I would hope that like that is something where they actually do have like healthy communication or at least a history of it that like maybe they've gone off track with but can get back to. Maybe I'm being too optimistic. I don't know. But like I always liked that about them in earlier seasons.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, you know, I'm sort of of two minds on it because I I totally hear you and I think that it is, you know, important, of course, to be a united front in a marriage and that's, you know, really what it's about. But also on the other hand, like they're on a reality TV show and they you know, and so they sort of signed up to have their lives on camera. And so, like they're not showing sort of the conflict resolution of it if they're even if they're even doing that. You know, they're just like, she's been like, well, we're private, but like you are literally on a reality show that shows your life. It's not like you're on a reality show that, you know, you you you leave your life to go on, right? And, you know, this is like this is this is your life. So I don't know, I can sort of see both sides of it.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, I mean I get I get what you're saying. I think for me it was like w how I interpreted it was was like, okay, like they they admit that they are like not in agreement on something on camera and they're like, we're gonna kinda like table it and get back to it off camera. And like the reason I kind of liked it was because I think sometimes couples on these Bravo shows like air out dirty laundry in a fight. Because whether they're thinking about it intentionally and consciously or not, they're like, this'll make for good TV. And then I think couples go to places that they actually wouldn't necessarily go to if they were fighting privately. And I think they actually could have like handled things better off camera. And so
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Interesting.
Kate Stephens: maybe I was giving them too much of the benefit of the doubt. And it's actually a super toxic marriage and she should leave. Right. So like I could be like totally wrong. And and I think this season, like I definitely got the ick. And I like, you know, I'm not like condoning any any of it, obviously, but like Up until this season, I was like, okay, like maybe they're they actually are being healthy about this. And they're like, we're not gonna have an argument in the pressure cooker of a TV show with all the cameras and everyone around us and like have everybody else weighing in on our problems. Like we'll deal with it outside.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah. The cynical part of me is like maybe this is also a way that she's protecting him and them because maybe they actually fight like pretty bad and she just doesn't w they both maybe both of them just doesn't don't want people to see it. So who knows?
Kate Stephens: Totally. Well, and I think seeing this season play out, like I am more like I could I could totally see that being true, you know? Like seeing how every how he talked to her was just very like disgusting. And it kind of made me be like, like maybe I was giving you too much of the benefit of the doubt that you were like trying to like resolve conflict in a healthy way. Like maybe you are covering up and like the more you hear about Mia and her childhood, like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: She's got some pretty powerful adaptations there, you know, that
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: like quite frankly, someone like Danny needs to marry someone like Nia, whose adaptations are more passive and about keeping the peace and about placating. Because imagine
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: if you married someone who was like emotional or reactive. It would be explosive, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, totally, totally. Well, and I think he you know, I think she really makes him feel yeah, like the center of the world, you know, like she really yeah, she really caters to him and that feeds his ego and he needs that to like feel good about himself and So I think that there is that dynamic too where she was like maybe drawn to his like stability, seeming stability, although on the inside it's not so it's you know, underneath it's not actually I think he's actually a pretty insecure person. But 'cause
Kate Stephens: Yeah, 'cause he should
Dr. Elana Hoffman: he's I know. I never I'm s I never that couch, I mean just him on the couch at the reunion, like was that a joke? Like did they like thank thank you.
Kate Stephens: So I Googled it. He I didn't Google the couch specifically, but I Googled the height difference between him and Luke. Luke is 6'2 and Danny's like 5'8. So that
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, okay, yeah.
Kate Stephens: is a pretty significant difference. And if the couch cushions, if they were like tampered with,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, I just feel like they he looked I mean he looked so
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: small. I mean he just looked I mean next to Nia too. How how tall is Nia? Did you go did you f did you Google that? Okay. Yeah,
Kate Stephens: my god, I did. Like five nine ish, I think.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: okay. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: So like, tall for a girl, you know.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean 'cause he looked I mean, he looked just so small. Next to him
Kate Stephens: She looked so small.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: and next to her too.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, it was pretty crazy. But yeah, like I just like if put some if one of his like marital needs was to like have kind of like those words of affirmation and to be like taken care of, like it wouldn't bother me so much if he also like put her on the pedestal that he wants to be on too. You know? And that's
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Tot right, totally.
Kate Stephens: that's what like really bothered me this season was And we can get into the postpartum of it all. It's like Mia's postpartum with her fourth kid, which I literally cannot even. And
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Fourth kid. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like for him to be getting mad at her for like eating a sandwich, I like I had to like stop that episode and like watch something else because I think so.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: He was I don't think he was drinking. I don't think he was I mean that that's that's it, right? Like those you know, at the reunion she's like, you know, sometimes it happens, but he doesn't, you it's it's it's so few and far between and this isn't how it is, you know, our our whole lives at home. It's like, no, those moments are the moments. Yeah, like that
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Twitter.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: is so telling. It's those things. Like it it
Kate Stephens: Yes.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: just is. And you know, it's just it's hard to it's hard to ignore and but she is so much at stake, you know, right, her traumatic childhood. She like they're you know, they met at church, they are like this, you know, they have this whole image and she is desperately trying to hold on to it and like desperately trying to defend it because if she lets these cracks and if she lets what the audience is saying or what La La or some other of the other cast members are saying, it all falls apart for her. And then she's like, what do I have and I think so sh there's like such a motivation for her to keep this you know, to keep it. And it's it's
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: hard. It's hard it really is hard to watch.
Kate Stephens: I know. Well, and especially if like her background is in like pageants, right? And she talked, I think it was like early in the season about like her body image, like postpartum and like wanting to get a mommy makeover, or like maybe that was even last season before this last kid. I can't remember. But like, you know, she's like, I don't feel great in my body. Like, if she's like worried about the marriage dissolving and her like previous source of income was being in pageants and bathing suits.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
Kate Stephens: Like she's like, I don't have a livelihood, you know.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: That's what I was also thinking when I heard that they might be I mean, how are they gonna make money? Like so they I mean, they have
Kate Stephens: What does it mean?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: incentive to stay on the show for that reason, I think.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. Because it doesn't seem like he's like uber successful in whatever voice acting stuff he does. So
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, it does not yeah, I mean I don't know, but it doesn't s it doesn't seem that way.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, yeah. But I I think that that moment that we were just talking about, those little moments, like when he's like mad at her for eating, it's like I actually thought that was more disturbing than anything he did drunk, to be totally honest with you. Because the drinking is a
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It is very disturbing.
Kate Stephens: problem. It's so black that give me just like grow up, honestly.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: But that moment of like, what are you doing? Eating? It's like, wow, you are stone cold sober, shaming your wife for eating, which for anyone who's listening that's that hasn't pumped or breastfed, all you do is eat. You're hungry all the time. You're a bottomless pit. So she's probably starving and he's getting mad at her for it. That yeah. It's just
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even if she wasn't pumping or breastfeeding, I mean like what is happening over there? Yeah. Yeah. No, it was it was
Kate Stephens: That to me was more telling than really anything else, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, no, they did not. It was it was not not a good look for them this season, but it does seem like it was a r representation of what their marriage is, even though she is denying that.
Kate Stephens: Mhm. And that's why I thought well, first of all, I was shocked at how much I liked Lala this season. 'Cause she was
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I just love her. I've always loved her. I was so thrilled when she was on the show. When she when they said that she would be on, I've always loved her. Yep. I just yeah.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. I always really liked her, but then the end of Vanderpump, she like really kinda pissed me off. I was like, You're broken up the wrong tree, girlfriend.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: She the reunion the the last VPR reunion was not her was not her was not her best look, but yeah.
Kate Stephens: No. No. But I just was like, I thought she came in very reasonable. And I
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, totally.
Kate Stephens: think her coming at his drinking from her own life experience was like super impactful. And it was really not like accusatory. She's like, look, this is just my experience. I I see what I see in you, I've seen in myself, I've seen in people in the AA rooms, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: And I feel like We like gotta peek behind the curtain here this season
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: and it's really alarming. And I just was like that was just such an effective way of communicating the concern. Whereas Lala in other reunions on on Vanderpump was like a s psycho like screaming whatever.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, I mean that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was yeah, she was definitely much more measured and grounded. And the way she
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: talked about the marriage too. She's like, I know, like I wa you know, I mean, sh like she wasn't married to Randall, but she d had a relationship, obviously, that she doesn't have any more. She's like, I'm I'm seeing this. I'm seeing red flags, you know, the way you're talking to her and the drinking. Like, I'm speaking from experience here, and so And I think it's true, you know, I mean, I think that like a lot of people who are looking at it from the outside, especially people who are not in relationships, really can like see things that that are, you know, in some ways clearer than like what Danny and Nia can see 'cause they're so in it. Same with Kristen and Luke. You know, it's like and what Michelle was saying, you know, I mean, it just is like A really different lens of looking at things. And Britney too. Like Brittany was like, I have lived so much. And that comparison, when she started to compare Danny to Jax and then she walked it back, I was like, don't walk this back, girl. Like this it like I understand why you're walking it back, because like no obviously, but like I don't think this comparison is that far off. Like I really don't.
Kate Stephens: I think, quite frankly, there's like very few people in this world that can compare to Jax Taylor and how like deeply unwell he is.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: But that being said, I thought her point of saying to Nia, like, you're covering for Danny the way I covered for Jax, that
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally. Yes.
Kate Stephens: she should never have walked back because I think she was like spot on.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. I think she has a long way to go in her confidence building, still after post divorce with Jax or they're not officially or like whatever, you I mean hopefully my god, they'll be divorced soon. my god. but
Kate Stephens: Who even knows? Yeah. I know.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: like, you know, I think that she's starting and saying stuff like saying stuff like that is really Indicative of being on that path of confidence and like learning and you know, being able to sort of stand in like what Lala is, where she's I'm not apologizing for this. Like, this is what I'm saying, this is true. I'm not apologizing. I think Brittany said it and then she got scared, and so she walked it back. But I encourage you to continue to speak, Brittany, because like you know, I mean, her perspective is so I mean, now she has to deal with Jax forever. She c was married to Jax. Like, she has a lot to offer, and thank God she was out of that. Brand situation relatively soon. Soon enough. I mean, not soon enough, but like relatively soon, you know, it could have been a lot worse. So like she's
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: she's starting and she's learning, and hopefully she won't, you know, she'll be able to see those red flags and she sees it. She sees, you know, and Danny is not that far. I mean, Jax is like ahead, like way ahead, like deeper into the pattern, but it's the same pattern. I mean, Britney and Jax and Nia and Danny, like, it's not that different of a pattern. Like these insecure men who really treat their partners not well. Like, you know, I mean, hopefully Danny has not said anything anywhere near the level of things that we've heard Jax has said to Britney, but it's still the sandwich thing, it's like it's not that far off from like, you know, the terrible threats that Jack that we've heard that Jax make. You I mean it's just deeper into the pattern, but the pattern is similar and that is scary.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. I think though for me, like like I up until The Valley, I was I I was not like a Jax apologist by any stretch like I am for Kyle Cook, right? Love him. But for Jax, I was like, he's great TV. Like he's really off his rocker great TV. The Valley
Dr. Elana Hoffman: he's great T V. yeah.
Kate Stephens: like really changed that where I was like, I'll watch someone who's like kind of a terrible person, like Stassi Schroeder. Every we were talking about this before. Like people hate Stasi. I'm not saying I'd
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Of her.
Kate Stephens: want to be friends with her. I'd love to be her therapist. Like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Mm-hmm.
Kate Stephens: so bad. But like I love watching her on TV and there's parts of her that I like. And I with Jax, there was no part of him that I liked, but I liked watching him on TV. But then it just got so dark and it was just so clearly abusive. It was
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. It gets so dark. It just yeah, it got so dark with her and with Cruz. It just it got so it got so so dark that it was like this is not right, the entertainment value is gone and this is just really hard to watch because you are being a horrible. yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: Like flat out abusive, yeah. And it was like and I I do think people throw like abuse around a lot, but like quite frankly, like that was pretty tech
Dr. Elana Hoffman: No, that no no no. Jack's w one hundred percent. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Kate Stephens: And that's why I will say, like, even if Danny sucks, right? Like I like I'll never like compare him to Jax just because I think Jax is like in a league of his own when it comes to like what he's put Britney through and continues to put her through. Like I'm pretty sure I saw on Instagram that he's like filing a restraining order against her.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: continues to I know yeah are you fall my god it's so awful it's just so awful poor cruise I just feel so terrible for Cruz yeah
Kate Stephens: It's so awful. And so like I actually think that that the point of like Danny needing to like step it up is like more effectively made when people don't compare him to Jax because I think he's gonna be like, I'm not like Jax You know. I mean I would too.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: For sure. yeah. He can't see it. He'll get so different. yeah. But he gets so different. I mean, he's he is just so diff I mean, yes.
Kate Stephens: If someone compared me to Jax Taylor, I would go off because I'd be like, That's rude, you know? So I'm like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: For sure. For sure. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Definitely. That I don't that I don't blame him for being defensive. But in general he's so defensive and he does not take any ownership or responsibility for anything. I mean, the whole thing with Janet, I mean, it's just like, dude, you did this thing. Like y you know, like you did a thing and now you're getting shit for it. But like don't blame everyone else for the thing that you did. Like, take accountability. I mean I'm the storyline, like it like harped on and all you know, there was that and like, you know, I don't know what your thoughts are on all of on that, but like he just does not I mean Lali even says that. And she even says, My sobriety depends on my accountability and you blame everyone else for everything. And something
Kate Stephens: Yes.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: happened at the reunion too where she where he blame it was something else. Anyway, he just cannot. He just cannot take ownership
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: and responsibility of anything. And that is a major problem.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. I do think there was one time where like Andy asked him directly about how he spoke to Nia and he did say like that was wrong. Like and I
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yeah, I yeah, I don't bu I mean I just I'm such I I just I think he I think he had to say that. I mean
Kate Stephens: Well you so score. It's a question of whether that's authentic.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: he yeah, I mean he knew he had to say that. Like at that point it was like, What's he gonna say?
Kate Stephens: But at the same time, there were times where Luke didn't say that about Kristen. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, yes,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like Danny is maybe smart enough to be like, I need to say that I like messed up, right? But
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like Luke should have taken a page out of Danny's book and also apologized for being so horrible. We'll get to him later, I guess. You know? But like, I think with Danny, it was like, you're right. Like his accountability around his drinking was just like.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: All of it. I mean it was I mean I think he was acca yeah, I mean he was accountable to what he said to Nia that was hurtful, but in terms of his actions, like you know, i i i it was it was it was really not yeah, he he cannot seem to take ownership of anything else.
Kate Stephens: No. And I think too, what like I thought was really powerful was Janet actually sharing this season, like why the whole thing with Danny like impacts her the way that it did. Like I think I just kind of turned my brain off when I watched these shows. So I it hadn't even occurred to me that maybe that was why she was so sensitive to it. But then when she shared, I'm like, my God, duh. Like the clients talk
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It makes so much sense. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: about that all the time, you know? Where it's like they're taking something personally that maybe doesn't have anything to do with them in this kind of situation. And that like totally tracks, you know? So like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Kate Stephens: I was really glad she shared that. I thought that was really brave, especially considering like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Me too.
Kate Stephens: how horrible the internet is to her. Like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: I really was like impressed with her for doing that. And I I don't know. I thought that was like a positive out of situation.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Me too. Me too. Me too. I mean, talking about and I guess, you know, trigger warning about sexual assault. Like I g you talking about it i in that way is so is so powerful. I mean, I thought it was so brave. I mean she right, exact especially because she knows she must know that she's not a fan favorite. and I always I never had such strong opinions of like dislike. I'm like, she's not that entertaining. Like she's not like that
Kate Stephens: Right. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: like funny or like sh you know, she's fine. Like I just like don't love her personality, but I'm not like offended by her presence on the show where everyone else seems to be. And then of course, you know, this continued to just but again, it was because he didn't take actual real accountability for it. And of course it triggered her own experience of sexual assault when she was younger, which yeah, she's so brave for talking about. And I also think it was like a good bridge for Kristen. Like I mean, you know, when Chris she and Kristen sort of had this moment around That which I thought was authentic and, you know, sort of like women defend being like, Yeah, I I you I understand I mean I like you, we have a history obviously, but I understand your experience as a woman and you know and I'm you know, I appreciate you sharing and I would never judge you for that. I thought that that was really nice. but she yeah, she was so brave for for sharing that for sure.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, yeah. I will say like I think what disappointed me with Kristen in that situation is she still even I think at the reunion was like I thought the timing was weird of when you shared it.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Other people question the timing of it too. And it's like, you don't nobody owes you any a a disclosure like that. Like no one owes you, she doesn't owe you anything. She'd have to tell you anything about that in the first place. And then you question like the motive and the timing. Like it was yeah. Yeah. You're right. Very true. Yeah. That was unsupportive. Yeah. I mean, I think
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't like that. Yeah. Wait, so No, go ahead.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Well, I think Kristen is not in her best. you know, not ha not not being her best self at the moment. I think it's really sweet to watch her with I loved watching her with Kaya. I really think I mean she's a little you know, she's a she's you know, she's probably got some anxiety. But like I but she obviously really wanted to have a baby. We've known this for a long time. I mean she's you we've known this for a long time. She loves being a mom. That part is sweet. And her and Luke are a total disaster train wreck. And I think it's making her not, you know, I mean it's just affecting her other it's affecting her lots of things. Her friendships being one of them, her relationships being one of them, you know.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. I will say, like, I am of two minds around Kristen filming like three months postpartum with her first. I know for me, if I was if a camera was put in my face three months postpartum with my first, I would
Dr. Elana Hoffman: my god. No.
Kate Stephens: have it would have been as much of a dumpster fire as Kristen. Like I was
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yes.
Kate Stephens: so unwell and I actually so there's a part of me that's like, I cannot believe you people make Kristen film. And the two, obviously. But like, like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: what is come on. You couldn't have given
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: them more time. That's like crazy to me. But there is another part of me that's like, that was really vulnerable. And I I'm kinda glad that like they showed that because that that kind of thing doesn't get shown on TV a lot.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I have I have told every one of my clients that it is applicable to who recently had a baby like to watch this because for exactly that reason. Like it's super vulnerable, it's really authentic, you know, it's really hard on a relationship, obviously. Like you can really learn from it. I really think it's really powerful and it's not, and like, I mean, postpartum and women's health and all these things, obviously. Are not talked about nearly enough. And this is a really beautiful, authentic example of how difficult it can be. And I thought it was really important. Like I thought it was really brave of them to just live their lives. I mean, I think it's a brave of all of them, honestly, to like put their lives, you know, out there like that. but especially at
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: this really vulnerable time, you know, and I thought that I, you know, I thought it was I thought it was great. I thought it was really, really And the people that were like, this this season really sucked. I'm like, Well, you just like hate moms. Like you just hate like you just like are bored by like watching like something that happens to a lot of people in real life. Like this is just not you know, I was like, This is you know, I didn't I just didn't like I mean some of it was dark and I understand that, but people even like in the beginning of the season, people were saying it's boring and I'm like, This is actually their this is this is their actual lives and so for me it was not boring, for me it was very real and authentic and important.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, like I just remember like in one of those like first few episodes of the season, Kristen and Nia are meeting up and Kristen says something like, my god, like I just came to a coffee place 15 minutes from my house and I like basically feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack. And I just feel like every new mom has felt that.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: And Kristen, like at in moment for sure was not even thinking about how deeply that would resonate with people in the Bravo audience. But like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: For sure, for sure.
Kate Stephens: that's the kind of thing that like nobody talks about. And like you get pregnant and it's a all everyone's all excited and no one's talking about like once you have the baby, it's like, okay, what's your birth plan? And then that's kind of it. And I feel
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like watching Kristen struggle I don't wanna say it was like a reality check for people. Like that seems kinda harsh, I guess, but I do think that there is something to be said for like, you know, this this is like a that was really real. Like I've definitely felt that. I've had clients that have felt that. And I just really appreciated it from her.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Totally. Totally. I think it is import I think it's a mandatory viewing. So really. So like if if you're listening and you recently had baby or you are thinking about having a baby, watch this, truly, because you I mean not that it necessarily will be like that, but it can be and it's really relatable and she really talks really openly about her struggles and people don't talk about it enough and it's something to watch and like really kind of take in of like something that can happen and often does happen to women and couples and men and dads. I mean it's hard for everyone. Like it's not, you know, I mean, Luke didn't really approach all this very well, but it's hard for him too. Like, I mean, I think it's important to talk about it's just he was just not able to get there with Kristen in a way that was like also loving and supportive and where she could hear him too. But of course it's hard for him. Of course his life is also different. Like you know, I
Kate Stephens: Hold on.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: just I feel like they just couldn't you know, they couldn't get to that point in the conversation where she could really acknowledge that for him too because he wasn't acknowledging it for her. But but it's but it's but it's also true. And so I just think it's like I think it's imp important postpartum education, folks. So
Kate Stephens: Yes, yes. Because I think that like the I'm biased as a mom where I'm like, yes, moms lives change more 'cause we have to go through like pregnancy, childbirth, and like postpartum and if you're breastfeeding and doing all that, whatever. But like I think Luke was a really good example of like there's not as much for the men to do in the beginning as there is like once they're like children, right? And I think Luke felt like really lost was my take of it of like You know, here's the woman I love who I'm engaged to marry and she's really struggling. We have this like blob. Like the newborns are such useless little blobs in the cutest way. And,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yep. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: you know, he's just like, I can't go out, I can't leave the house because Kristen gets mad at me, but I'm not needed here, which can do that can like really like mess with men when they like don't know how to help or like don't feel needed or like whatever. And so like I like I definitely was just very I guess I was just really really disappointed in him in terms of like the comments that he would make about Kristen being pregnant and postpartum and like I just I thought that was harsh,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yeah. Yeah. Awful.
Kate Stephens: but I I also think a lot of men feel that way. For better
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: or for worse. Like true.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Well, and I think a I mean, Kristen, you know, I I feel for her and her anxiety and postpartum anxiety is no joke. And it he his complaint was like, You're telling me I'm doing everything wrong all the time. Like, why am I gonna do this? Right? And if she's like nitpicking
Kate Stephens: Right.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: about every whatever, the way he changes it, whatever he does that's wrong, like, of course he's not gonna do it. And that's a self-fulfilling prophecy where she's like, I do everything, right? And I just think that that dynamic is so common. So like on the one hand, yes, like he needs to step up a bit more. On the other hand, she needs to not like box him out and be like, you're not doing anything right. Like, you know, 'cause
Kate Stephens: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: otherwise he rightfully he's gonna be like, Well, why goodbye and then she's mad at him leaving, like you said, and it's this whole, you know, it's this whole thing. I just feel like also like he need be there for her. You know, I it it's it's it's more like that's more of his you know, I think that that's more the sometimes the role of the dad is like taking care of the mom. Like the mom really does like ha have a handle on the baby. It's more like the dad's role is like taking care of the mom. It's like evolution. I mean it's just evolution. Like if you know our our bodies don't know that it's twenty twenty six and that you can just like Uber eats dinner. Like, you know, like our bodies don't know that. And there was a time where like if the guy if the father left, you you'd be dead. The baby would be dead. And so like it's just it's so primal and like we don't like to say that and like it's not like I'm not like allow you know, it's like not so like PC to talk about that, but like it's really true. Like it's a primal,
Kate Stephens: No, it's for sure.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: it's a primal thing. And so like when dad leaves, even if again a few hours to meet friends or whatever, like her body doesn't know that like she's safe. Like she feels unsafe, she feels like something's gonna happen. And but if people understood that, then they could just like talk about it and like Just know that that's normal and how to address it and that that's not the case, you know, but I think that that's why like post it's so important, like postpartum education. And their couples therapist session was just like it's they just need to be educated. Like they just needed more education around what to expect around this. I mean, it's both of their responsibilities to do that, to educate themselves around it. But,
Kate Stephens: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: you know, so much of it, like, you know, the couples therapy of it during that time, I think is more so just like education and normalizing.
Kate Stephens: Right. Wait, so speaking of the couples therapy, I've been dying to ask you this as a couples therapist. What was your take when Kristen was like our couples therapist said that we are too volatile for couples therapy and we need to like do our own therapy? Because I had like kind of two conflicting thoughts on it. So I wanted to know what your take was.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: My my honest take on it is that Kristen's therapist thinks that they should break up and is hesitant to recommend couples therapy to them. That's like kind of what my gut is telling me. I mean, I think that that's like two like that's a couples therapist's job is to like help with the volatility. I mean, you can do individual work along with couples' work, that can be very helpful. But like You know, and sometimes it's like, well, you guys need to like address individual stuff before you can really come together. But I that's I don't know. That's that was my
Kate Stephens: That's interesting.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: sort of you know, maybe reading too much into it, or maybe just but the way she kind of said it and I don't know. I just wonder what Kristen's therapist thinks about this whole situation. You know, maybe she's just like, Well, maybe you should just stick with me, you know, and like Luke should get like individual help.
Kate Stephens: Wait, so I had interpreted it maybe I could totally be wrong. I thought it was like that couple's therapist that they had been talking to had said, You guys are too volatile.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I thought she was saying that it was her individual therapist that said that. Well that's different.
Kate Stephens: You could be right. I totally maybe I'm just making that assumption. Cause like my thought had been like kind of twofold. Like you mentioned, sometimes there's couples therapists that will like get the couple in front of them and be like, wow, there is like some so much individual work that needs to be done. Like you guys both go to individual. Let's circle back in a couple months, you know? But it's
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: not necessarily because of volatility. It's just like so glaringly obvious when two people need individual therapy first, right? But then
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Right. Right.
Kate Stephens: and then my other reaction was like. like that seems like an excuse. And I couldn't tell if it was an excuse for like Kristen on her part of like, it's too volatile. Like Luke's not open to it. Or if it was Luke being like Kristen's not open to it. Or if it was the therapist even being like, I don't feel competent enough in my skills to handle a high conflict couple, you know? Like that that just it seemed like a little bit of a cop out for some
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, I think it was a comp out. I mean, I it's hard but they were not volatile in that session, right? So like
Kate Stephens: I agree. Yeah, I didn't think so either.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, so I feel like it I feel like it's sort of a comp out because I think that Kristen knows that Luke is not into it. And I think she's kind of just like, Well, he's not gonna do it. So like like we tried it and he hated it and he's not gonna do it again. So like I'm just gonna stick with my individual therapist who tells me that we're too volatile to go to couples therapy, but really like maybe she just doesn't see them together you know, maybe she just I you know. I don't know. But Andy Andy was like, Maybe you should go but maybe you should go back. I don't know. I just think like Luke does not want this life. Like Luke d like they don't need to go to couples therapy. They just like maybe need to break up. Like they're just not ha I mean it was just th his reaction when Andy said, Are you guys happy? And she was like, We are now and he was like, mmm you know, I mean it was just hard to watch. Like it's really hard to watch like Kristen, like you just just deserve better. Like, you know, he's younger. He just like wanted to make he like, Sure, I'll have a baby, like having no idea what this would mean. Literally no idea, right? And when they're they a the Andy asked, like, would you get engaged now? Right? And he was like, I don't I don't know. That happened, right? The Andy asked that question.
Kate Stephens: Like yes. And I was like, dude, wrong answer. The answer is yes.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Well, but if that's not his right answer, if that's not his true answer, you know, I mean it's
Kate Stephens: Well, right.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: obviously it isn't 'cause he like hemmed and hawed, you know, it's just like Kristen, like this man does not want to be with you. Like it it's hard, like it's painful, but like this man does not want to marry you. Like if he wanted to marry you, you'd be married. Like that is just the h reality of it and like it's hard, but like he's not participating in this life. Like he really doesn't He said he said put pregnant Kristen in a coffin. Like how mean is that? Like it's so mean. It's so unkind. And and obviously I just said all these things about how it's hard for new dads too, and I stand by that. But in this in this case, like you don't need to
Kate Stephens: You don't need to be like a dick about it, honestly.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: be a dick about it. And also it just but he just he never he does not like where they live. Like he never wanted to be there. He doesn't want to go back to Colorado. He just this is not a life that he wants. And I think she would be a better mom without that stress and like you know, i the their dynamic, which is like not good you know, and so like and he'd be a better dent like I mean just you it's like okay. It's like you don't have to get married. Like you just really don't. Like it's okay. You can like both be parents to Kaya and it be all good and she you can you can love her you both can love her and like be great parents and like not be together and like I promise you it's not the end of the world. Like really it's not.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like I can't even totally tell to be honest, like how engaged of a parent he is. Like they
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: just didn't show that. So it's like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Well, I just don't think I don't think because she's like taking over everything. I mean, but if he had like solo time with her, like he he you know, I mean I'm sure he'd be fine he'd figure he'd be fine. He like he loves her. I mean I think that I'm sure he loves her. You know, he's like not an incompetent person. She's just making him feel incompetent, which happens a lot.
Kate Stephens: It does. It does. Yeah. Like to me, like in a lot of ways I feel like more sad for Kristen and Luke than I do for like Danny and Nia. Because I think for Danny and Nia, like they've got their own stuff, but they're like already married. And so I can almost like understand more of the fight there. Right. Because you're like. Whereas like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. It's high stakes. It's it's higher stakes. Yeah, it's higher stakes. Yes, for sure.
Kate Stephens: for Kristen and Luke, it's like to me I'm just like I'm sad for Kristen.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: This is what I mean, man. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. I'm sad for Kristen. I'm sad for him too. Like it stinks that like you love I mean he loves Kristen, obviously, but now like this major life change happens and maybe he doesn't as much anymore. Like that's a sad
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah, I just don't know that he d yeah, I d I just don't know that he does. I mean, I'm sure he does on some level. I'm sure he has love for her. She's the mom of his kid. Like I but like just their whole vi I mean, it's just like he's just really Yeah.
Kate Stephens: But their vibe has changed a lot. Like think about like season one of The Valley versus now. It's like they were it was very apparent that they were like in love before, you know? And I think now
Dr. Elana Hoffman: For sure. Yes, definitely.
Kate Stephens: it's like, like if if you guys didn't have a kid, would Luke just like leave? Like I don't
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I'm sure he I mean that I'm sh I'm sure they would I'm sure he would. I mean, I'm sure he would. And like it's he kept saying, I wanna go back to when like we were flirting, when we had sex and all these things and it's just like there's no back, dude. There just you cannot there's a new there couldn't be a new normal, a new situation that can be really great and wonderful, but there's gotta like be a foundation of it. And I just really feel like fundamentally it it's not where he wants to be. Like I just really don't think and I just don't think he's honestly I just don't I mean I think it would be really hard and it would hurt if he left, but I honestly I really don't think he's doing her any favors by staying. Like I just really don't. I just I don't think it's what he wants and therefore he should not be doing it.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. That's like just like a really sad situation. And I think that's like where the
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, it is bad.
Kate Stephens: valley has become so mixed for so many people is that like,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: you know, like when you think about everything that happened with West and Amanda, right? Like yes, there was a marriage at stake, but there were no children, right? And it was just
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally. Yes.
Kate Stephens: so crazy that like it was while it was high stakes, it also really wasn't. And I think with the
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: valley, because we're talking about like marriages and children and like postpartum, that like that it it's more high stakes than like the Summerhouse stuff or the the Scandal
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yes.
Kate Stephens: stuff a few years ago. It's
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yes.
Kate Stephens: a lot more vulnerable. And I think people see more of themselves in Kristen and Luke, Danny and Nia than like they feel comfortable with. Whereas like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: no one really sees themselves in like West and Amanda. Like that's that's crazy.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Kyle and Amanda,
Kate Stephens: But like I think a lot
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I think are Kyle and Amanda, I think, are relatable. But yes, I think
Kate Stephens: Okay.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: but I think, you know, I think you're totally right. And that's I think that's what makes it really powerful and hard to watch. But also important too. Like it also is like, you know, Kristen Luke, you don't have stay together. Like Dan and Nia, like you also don't have to stay together. Like it it like it like it's okay. Like it'll be okay. Like look at Jesse and Michelle. Like I I really appreciate the co parenting, like storyline and like you know, Brittany and like it's like it would be hard, but like it like like it's okay. Like it would be okay. And I just, you know, I think that there's a lot of I mean, like there's a lot of emphasis of course on like keeping things together and, you know, I understand that it's worth a sh that it's high stakes and no one, you know, it's worth trying
Kate Stephens: Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: to work it out if you're in those positions. But also on the other hand, like you're seeing people thriving who have split up, who are not, you know, I mean, who've like let things go. Like I loved watching Michelle and Jesse's like conscious uncoupling on the show. Like I thought it was like really beautiful. I thought it was really great. I thought that I think that they probably would not have done it like that if it weren't for the show, which is why like reality TV I think sometimes can be really like I mean I think they wouldn't have I mean, who knows? Maybe they wouldn't even have stayed together, maybe they wouldn't have been together in the first place. I mean, it's obviously hard to you know, you can't answer those questions, but like it gave the space for that kind of like separation and divorce and ending. And like I really appreciated that and I thought it was really, really beautiful.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Well and that actually to me harkens over to the house of Stasi and the Queen herself. And how she's like, I don't
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yes.
Kate Stephens: I don't believe in therapy. Like I'm on reality TV and that's my therapy.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: And that is why I love her. Like what a statement. What a statement.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, I love her. Yeah. I mean, I shared that on threads. I like filmed that moment and I put it on threads and I was like, as a therapist, I can't fully agree with this. However, there are a lot of benefits, and I talk about this all the time. I talked about it with Georgina when she was on my when she was on here when she was on the podcast. Shout out to the amazing, lovely Georgina. but I talked about how I use the you know, I mean how like producers On reality TV will like ask some more questions that therapists do and make people reflect. I mean, obviously, again, caveat disclaimer, it's not therapy. But I can see, I sort of can see what she's saying. I mean, you know, like still still might be helpful, Stasi, you know, like something private, confidential, just for you, you know. So like it's really like actual therapy. But like, especially with the mom and everything that we saw with her family, my God. But like, I see where she's coming from, you know, like it's it's reality TV is like intense, reflective. time and so like there is that there's a therapeutic benefit to it that is separate from therapy.
Kate Stephens: Which is and I think that was something that Kyle and Amanda talked about at the reunion of Summerhouse, right? About how it sounded like for like nine months out of the year, they were living completely different lives. And then every summer they come back together and they're trying to reconnect. And it's sort of like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: a like a therapy intensive for them. But like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, totally.
Kate Stephens: they're so past the point of return. And now, you know, obviously the whole thing happens. And so I think for someone like Stasi, who I take to be a bit avoidant in some ways. Like she comes across as not avoidant because she's so confrontational, but like that
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: is actually a defense that keeps her from getting to the heart of issues with people or for
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally.
Kate Stephens: people to get through to her, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Okay.
Kate Stephens: And I think that her being like the messy queen that she is. Like she'll stir the pot and she'll get mad and she'll whatever, but like she is never really vulnerable with anybody, you know? And so
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: that's where it's like, sure, it's therapeutic for her or the people around her, but like obviously I mean, I was saying too, I would kill to be her therapist. my god, I would love it. I would love every single second of it. It'd be so much fun.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I think for me, I think I think I might prefer to be a producer on the show than her actual
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: therapist. Which is so funny. Maybe that just
Kate Stephens: I want my license on the line for that.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: speaks yeah, maybe it speaks I don't know, it speaks something, I'm sure. Thinking about that. But I just she was I mean, that conversation with Bo, maybe you haven't gotten there yet. Where are you in it? What's happening?
Kate Stephens: She was just complaining about Bo going back to work and how he's like the foundation of the household and like she's gonna have like parent more if he goes back to work. Which was really interesting.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Did you have you seen have you seen the conversation where they like really dig deeper into that between the two of them, Sassi and Bo?
Kate Stephens: Is that where she was like, I didn't have stability growing up and your stability and I want that
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: for our kids?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. I thought that
Kate Stephens: Loved it.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: in Stasi world, I thought that that was her vulnerability. Like, I mean, he because he was like, what is the deal? Like, I mean, he, you know, like obviously she was scared of it about it. Like it came off like, I don't want this, you know, but underneath, like, what are you worried about? And so she was able to talk about it, and probably with the help of some producers that were like, You guys should have a conversation about this, like what's really going on here. And in that way it is similar to what a therapist would say, you know, and then she had this and then and then he was like, I hear you, you know, and I thought that the conversation was like really, you know, really nice between the between the two of them.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause like I think the way that Stasi like presents herself a lot is like so sassy and I don't know if without is the right word.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. But she's like such a no, she's like such a like many people who are like hard on the outside. Like Lindsay Hubbard. She's like Lindsey Hubbard. And Lala. I mean, she she you know, I mean
Kate Stephens: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I just really feel like, you know, these like women that are like I'm you know, like b confident and, you know, but like in when it comes down to it, like they're just like wanna be like you know, they're just like mush, mushy, you know, like they just like want love and connection and like wanna be like wanna feel safe and like want you know, but Yeah, yeah,
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yeah.
Kate Stephens: And so it felt like like that conversation where she's like, it really means a lot to have somebody stable home with the kids all the time. I was like, that makes her strong feelings about it make so much more sense. I think that's super valid, you know? And I think if the situation were reversed and Bo was the breadwinner and Stasi was staying at home and saying she wanted to go back to work, and Bo was saying to her, like, but you're like so stable not that Stasi isn't stable. So you'd have to pretend that Stasi isn't Stasi, right? But like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah.
Kate Stephens: you're just providing so much stability to our kids. Like that would be like a big moment too. And sometimes I think because Stasi is who she is, people are like, that's so blah blah blah, like emasculating or that's mean or whatever. And it's like, no, like that's like very that it doesn't mean that Bo needs to like not go back to work because she said that. But I think
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Exactly.
Kate Stephens: for her to express that need of like It's really important for me to have stability. I didn't have that. It's important that we as parents provide that. And quite frankly, you're more stable than me.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: I don't think there's anything wrong with that when it when communicated appropriately, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, totally. No, it opens up well, it opens up the conversation and it allows for problem solving, right? Like when you understand where someone's coming from, when you really understand like deeply what it is that is so important about it, then like you can come to a conclusion together, like with that understanding. Otherwise it just seems controlling, right? Boak needs to like, This controlling bitch, like she doesn't want me to go back to work. And he did say that until they like really talked about it and she really got to the heart of it. So like the things that come off in that way as like controlling really are just anxiety, as is often the case. Same with Kristen, what we were just talking about, right? Like, you know, she's just had such anxiety, but it came off as like he's you know, Luke is being controlled.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. And I and I think that like I think where I literally paused was like Stasi kind of like complaining about her kids and how hard they are. And
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Mm.
Kate Stephens: what and I had just listened to your podcast episode with Georgina. And I loved how she talked about parenting and motherhood. Because there is something to be said for like being a mom is like super great. It's my god. I've my son has been obsessed with Grumpy Monkey, the book, and the the mom for a day. Grumpy Monkey. Grumpy monkey mom for a day. And it's all about Jim Panzee being mom for the day. And he's like, it's so fun and easy. It's so easy. I'm a great mom. And then he's like,
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Well.
Kate Stephens: this is so hard. Like I keep saying to him, like, is this my mommy? Because Jim Panzee like has a Menti B and is like, I need a break. And I just feel like, like, I feel
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like Georgina, super raw and vulnerable and like authentic about that. Like, and I think non-parents
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. I love yeah. I love that.
Kate Stephens: are like horrified when moms are like, dude, I like am so dumb with kids.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It's just so real. Yeah. It can be all those things at one time. Like it's all those things. It doesn't mean you don't love your kids. It doesn't mean you don't wanna be with
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: them. It doesn't it just means that like it's so hard and right. People are so judgmental of like saying that, my god, how could you say that? And it's like do there's like a there's you know, there's a flexibility of thinking here, like lots of things can be true simultaneously.
Kate Stephens: felt like and I so I'm not done with this season of House of Stasi, so maybe she says more things that are worse. But like what I've seen so far, I'm like, it doesn't sound great, but that's because of how she says it. Like the sentiment
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: behind the parenting being hard and like if she isn't home a lot, the kids maybe do give her a harder time. Or like because she's the mom, they give her a harder time, or she's whatever.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally. Or like, yeah, and like or Yeah. And if she's like confident at work but she's not confident at home, right? Like, yeah, then she feels like she's a bad mom. And like that's really hard.
Kate Stephens: Wait.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: And of course she's not. Like she loves her kids, but like ma there's so much pressure on moms. And so anytime you do anything that's quote unquote rot, you know, you just like spiral and feel like a terrible mom for like whatever it is. There's so much mom guilt to be carried around. So like if she feels any and she's sensitive, you know, I mean she is.
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: as we were just t saying. So like if she feels like, you know, any inclination probably of like the kids not wanting to be with her or them giving her a hard time, like she's gonna take it personally, even though they're kids and like that's what happens and it's not a personal it's not personal, but she would like take it personally and she probably feels like very confident at work because for obvious reasons. And then at
Kate Stephens: As you should.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: home right and then at home she's like, my God, what am I doing? You know? And yeah, it's hard.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. I to me was just like I was sort of confused at the judgment that like viewers had about that. And maybe it's because I love Stasi and I and I was sort of like reading between the lines of what she said. Like she says things harshly, but like the sentiment
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah.
Kate Stephens: behind it was like this is really hard. And so I didn't think it was like that horrible. I don't know. Again, maybe there's other
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Did people say did people did people did people react strongly to that particular I feel like people were like resonated with it. I people I feel like people were like, I'm glad she said something like par like it's hard. But I think people
Kate Stephens: interesting.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: but people who don't like her are gonna are gonna like, you know, no matter what.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. Cause like I had definitely like listened to some things and seen some things online where like people who you can tell obviously don't like her were then like and look at how she talks about her kids and it's like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, yeah.
Kate Stephens: Like, show me a mom that hasn't said that kind of stuff. It's just
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah.
Kate Stephens: they're not saying it on the n on a national television show. They're saying it to like their girlfriends or their husband or something. Do you know what I mean? It's so I was like, I don't I
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: don't like that judgment.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: No, I thought it was also I thought the whole show was really also relatable and really well done. I mean you you're in for I mean the the finale of it is you're let me know. Let me know as soon as you let me know as soon
Kate Stephens: I got I know, I gotta get there. I'll catch you.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: as you watch it 'cause it is it it's wild. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: Wait, so does Taylor really not go to the birth of her child?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: No, I think that's a great question.
Kate Stephens: 'Cause in the last episode
Dr. Elana Hoffman: We don't
Kate Stephens: I was watching she was crying about how her wife is also new.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: No, no, no. They don't have they don't have well, I mean, this is a bit of a spoiler. Or they don't they they don't I don't think they have the I don't I don't think no. I think it's just like that it's possible that her wife could have given birth. Like it's possible, but like it's unlikely. Like I don't think she I think that she the timing of it was like she has to go back to New York because Yeah,
Kate Stephens: Let's do it.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: like I think b because like in case she like doesn't want to give birth in California, she'd have get back to New York. But I think it was like as soon as they f finished filming then she was gonna go. So unless something unpredicta you know, unless something happened that was not predicted, she would have been back in time. That's what I that's that that was what I got.
Kate Stephens: See that I had a more like WTF reaction to. I was like, You're you're gonna skip the birth of your actual child for a T Okay. Okay.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I don't think yeah, no, no, no, I don't I don't think so. No, no, I d I yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. But their conversations around that was also were also interesting where she was like, I feel like, you know, but this is my responsibility, I'm the breadwinner and you know, I mean it's it's pe this is like so common. These are such common issues that really I'm so glad that people are showing us these conversations to just normalize and be like, people struggle with this 'cause it's hard.
Kate Stephens: I know. I know. So you know what's interesting is like where I'm like thinking ahead to like shows to come in September. We've got like Ultimate Girls Trip, where I think there's this really interesting di are you gonna watch it or can I like spoil a So there's a
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I will watch it. I haven't yet, but I will watch it. You can spoil it's not
Kate Stephens: there's like a little something between like Heather and Lisa where it's like you start to see a dynamic of like, like Heather really does like manipulate behind the scenes to get Lisa to blow up on camera.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Hm.
Kate Stephens: And it's really interesting. So like you start to have
Dr. Elana Hoffman: That's not surprising. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: like conversations around that. And then s SLC is back in a couple weeks. And then the new Rony is back. And then we've got the newest
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yeah.
Kate Stephens: season of Secret Lives, the Mormon Wives, which like I think I'm gonna have to come back and we're gonna have to talk about that show because I have like a lot of feelings about it.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: We can come back. Yeah, yeah, we can do another. We can do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can do another on that. And we have yeah,
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Like there's
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I mean, I guess it'll be a while s until Summer House and In the City, which I don't think it's even started filming yet. I don't even think we know season two.
Kate Stephens: Watch that into our.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: No, I don't watch the term. But I know, I know,
Kate Stephens: What?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I know, I know, I know. I I started it
Kate Stephens: Why? On purpose?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I started it a while ago and I like couldn't I don't know. I think I need to just re I think I just need to revisit.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I know like Southern Hospitality isn't gonna be back 'cause they haven't even started filming their next season yet because there's like all kinds of stuff going on there.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: interesting. Okay. Okay.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. 'Cause like Leva is like under investigation for like wage garnishing with like tips. And then there's like Joe Bradley just left and is at like a rival hospitality group and it's just there's like a lot in there. I don't know if you watch Lot Hospitality, but that's a great show.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Interesting. Interesting. yeah, no, there are a few Bravo shows that I need to catch up on.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, that's included. But how excited are you for the for Beverly Hills?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: yeah, I'm excited for Beverly Hills. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kate Stephens: Can't wait. Can't wait? It's gonna be great.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It's gonna be great. Yeah. Did we cover who else did what did we cover everything on the Valley? I mean there's still I just feel there's still like more to discuss, but we basically I think we I think we I think we got it all.
Kate Stephens: I feel like those are like the the main it's been a few weeks since the reunion aired and I did not take any notes. So I was like wing it conversation.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: It has been a few weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no me neither. I usually take notes but I didn't I didn't this time either. But I think I you know, I just think I think overall like it was an important season. Like I do think it was important. I think it really like people really deal with this stuff and I think it was important to be shown and so I'm grateful for that. And same same with House of Sassy. I mean, it's it's like this is I mean it's it's sort of hard to relate sometimes because of like Hollywood. But still like their problems are like really c you know they are everyday issues. And so I'm
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I'm really grateful for them sharing all of it with us and, you know, these important lessons that we can learn.
Kate Stephens: I know, I know. I will always be grateful for people who are willing to put their lives on TV like that because I could not do that. But these people can
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Kate Stephens: and they can entertain me and help me turn my brain off and just live my best life, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah, for sure. Does it help you do you tr like I mean, as a therapist, like do you turn your brain off?
Kate Stephens: Yeah, like I feel like I have to actively turn my brain on to talk to you about it because I just
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Mm.
Kate Stephens: watch it and I'm like, my god, this shit is crazy. And that's just like the extent of the thoughts in my head. You know, like
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Yeah. I I feel like I can't I like I can't turn it I mean I watch it obviously but like I you know, I I'm it I I don't think I can turn it off. Like I'm just like looking at it in a certain way that I don't think I'll ever not be able to.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, like sometimes if I'm thinking about an after, I might like dabble in the therapist part of my brain. But like, yeah, when I'm watching it, I'm it's like an escape. Because it's like, and I think to be fair to people that are like, the valley's too dark, one of the things I found hard about watching The Valley is a lot of my clients talk to me about the exact things that I'm seeing on the screen. So if I have like six clients in a day and I'm talking to four of them about this, and then like I have to go watch on my screen, I'm like, pfft.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
Kate Stephens: watch this like I just talked about this before hours, you know?
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. But I think it's still, you know, it's still wildly entertaining. So yes, yes, yes.
Kate Stephens: Still great. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Thank thank goodness for reality T V, like actually for real. So grateful for it.
Kate Stephens: I know. my god. Yeah, seriously. What a game changer.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Truly. Yes, I can't wait for what's to come.
Kate Stephens: Well, I definitely want to come back and talk Secret Lives with you. Once we like get through this next season, hope to God Taylor Frankie Paul is not on this season. Because
Dr. Elana Hoffman: god. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: I my god, do I have thoughts. Very curious about Layla and her eating disorder. I just there's so much to talk about with them. They're just Jesse Marciano.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, you yeah, we should do a whole a whole commentary on it for sure. Yeah.
Kate Stephens: Yeah. Love that.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: All right. Well, thank you so much for this post kid bedtime recording. Really appreciate it.
Kate Stephens: Of course.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: I hope you come back soon. And in the meantime, we will I'm sure continue to discuss when your phone is not bricked about whatever is
Kate Stephens: Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: happening in the Bravo universe.
Kate Stephens: Yes, absolutely. And don't you can always text me. I'm never bricked on the text. It's always just Instagram and like social media and
Dr. Elana Hoffman: Okay. Well that makes yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes that makes sense.
Kate Stephens: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Elana Hoffman: All right. Well, thank you so much, Kate. this has been Talk Relationship to Me, produced by Peach Island Productions. I'm Dr. Elana Hoffman. Do you have a question about relationships? I'd love to hear from you. Go to my website, drelanahoffman.com and click contact or find me on Instagram or TikTok at _ Dr.ElanaHoffman, and you can find everything you need, including more about today's episode, in the show description. If you questions or comments about today's episode, anything we missed on any of this Valley or Bravo recaps, please let us know. and thank you so much for listening.