Adam Berman
00:00:02Welcome to our first episode of the Talent Talks Podcast, brought to you by Kreischer Miller's Retained Executive Search Practice and the center for Private Company Excellence.
Adam Berman
00:00:11My name is Adam Berman and I lead Kreischer Miller's Retained Executive Search Practice and I'll be your host today.
Adam Berman
00:00:17I'll be honest, I've struggled and screwed up a lot with the hiring of executives in the past.
Adam Berman
00:00:22I have made more mistakes than I'm often willing to admit.
Adam Berman
00:00:26I know I'm not alone.
Adam Berman
00:00:28Many companies today are struggling to hire great executives and it ain't going to get any easier.
Adam Berman
00:00:34On the podcast.
Adam Berman
00:00:35I'm going to be tapping into an incredible network of executives with real world experience.
Adam Berman
00:00:40They all have track records of success and they will share, honestly and with vulnerability, their fair share of scars from their own talent missteps.
Adam Berman
00:00:51But they'll also share some amazing insights on how you can avoid some of those same mistakes.
Adam Berman
00:00:58Together, we'll unpack their stories and strategies and help you get better at hiring the right leaders for your organization at the right time.
Adam Berman
00:01:07Join me on Talent Talks as we explore what it really takes to build really strong leadership teams.
Adam Berman
00:01:14Today I'm thrilled to introduce an exceptional guest, Joy Taylor.
Adam Berman
00:01:18Joy is not just an incredibly successful entrepreneur and executive, but she's also a former boss and a dear friend.
Adam Berman
00:01:26She's got over 25 years of cross functional experience.
Adam Berman
00:01:29She's worked at some of the world's most renowned organizations, companies like General Electric, PwC, IBM, the New York Yankees, which is hard for me to say as a New York Met fan.
Adam Berman
00:01:41Her work has influenced companies as well known as Merck and jj, Fidelity Investments, Bristol Myers Squibb, Chevron and many others.
Adam Berman
00:01:51She drives into transformation using her expertise in strategy development and execution, project leadership, change management, team facilitation.
Adam Berman
00:02:00I cannot list all the things here and actually allow her to speak, so I'll just stop there.
Adam Berman
00:02:06She's a true trailblazer and has earned so many awards.
Adam Berman
00:02:09More awards than there were shelves being manufactured at IKEA.
Adam Berman
00:02:13But some of the more prestigious ones include EY Entrepreneur of the Year, Smart CEOs Brava Award.
Adam Berman
00:02:20She is so sought after by many people to serve on boards and she contributed extensively to causes that are important to her that she's passionate about.
Adam Berman
00:02:31And as I mentioned, I had the privilege of working alongside of her for nearly a decade at Tagan Point Consulting, a startup that she co founded and later sold to a billion dollar multinational firm.
Adam Berman
00:02:43She's currently leading a new venture, Alliant Consulting, and her ability to spot Engage and develop talent is nothing short of extraordinary.
Adam Berman
00:02:53She is truly a pied piper for talent.
Adam Berman
00:02:56So let's dive in.
Adam Berman
00:02:57Joy, welcome.
Adam Berman
00:02:59You were recently brought in to lead something new.
Adam Berman
00:03:01Can you tell me a little bit about that and what you're doing now?
Joy Taylor
00:03:05I can, but I would like to start by saying thank you for inviting me today.
Joy Taylor
00:03:09I'm very excited to be here.
Joy Taylor
00:03:10And I didn't realize this was the first podcast.
Adam Berman
00:03:14You are no one better to bat lead off than Joy Taylor?
Joy Taylor
00:03:19Well, I don't know about that, but let's keep going to see if I can keep up with that level of expectation.
Joy Taylor
00:03:26So, yes, I am very excited that recently I was acquired again by an organization called Alliant.
Joy Taylor
00:03:33And Alliant has a number of subsidiaries, and one of those is Alliant Consulting.
Joy Taylor
00:03:40It's new to them, and they've asked me to come in and build it for them.
Joy Taylor
00:03:44And I'm honored and I feel very privileged to have the opportunity to do so.
Adam Berman
00:03:48So I'm going to ask you to do something, because this ties in exactly to that.
Adam Berman
00:03:53And turn off your humble filter and boast a little bit.
Adam Berman
00:03:57As I mentioned before, I got to sit next to you for many years, and I saw people flock to you.
Adam Berman
00:04:02You were a light to moths, a magnet to pieces of metal.
Adam Berman
00:04:06People want to be near you.
Adam Berman
00:04:08They want to learn from you.
Adam Berman
00:04:09They want to collaborate with you.
Adam Berman
00:04:10They want to socialize with you.
Adam Berman
00:04:12They want to impress you.
Adam Berman
00:04:14What is it about you?
Adam Berman
00:04:15Again, turn off that humble filter.
Adam Berman
00:04:16What is it about you that you think attracts executives to want to be around Joy Taylor?
Joy Taylor
00:04:23I appreciate you giving me three seconds to think about that.
Adam Berman
00:04:26You can have four.
Joy Taylor
00:04:27All right, great.
Joy Taylor
00:04:29Turning off the humble filter.
Joy Taylor
00:04:30I believe it is a combination of a few things.
Joy Taylor
00:04:33My grandmother told me I was an amazing storyteller.
Joy Taylor
00:04:36I think she taught me how to be an amazing storyteller.
Joy Taylor
00:04:39And there is a gift of engaging people the right way so that their story can come out as you're interviewing them or as you're working with them, so that they can bring the best version of themself, the most natural version of themselves to a conversation.
Joy Taylor
00:04:55And I think I enable that.
Adam Berman
00:04:57So now you've used it in the hiring process to uncover some of their hidden gifts or perhaps some gaps that they may have.
Adam Berman
00:05:06How do you use that storytelling superpower to get them to realize their potential and contribute in meaningful ways and grow their careers?
Joy Taylor
00:05:17Okay, so here's my version of the truth.
Joy Taylor
00:05:20Everyone wants to work in a place where their best talents get noticed, and the Kind of people I want to work with know they have gaps, but want exposure to grow those gaps and enclose them, if you will.
Joy Taylor
00:05:36And therefore, it's a fine combination of identifying people's gifts and talents and their shortcomings and not being afraid to talk about it.
Adam Berman
00:05:44Think of someone who exemplifies that.
Adam Berman
00:05:46Don't use their name here, but think of someone who exemplifies that, who came into one of the organizations that you were leading and had the courage to share where their gaps might be.
Adam Berman
00:05:59What did you do as a leader to help them have the opportunities to fill those gaps?
Joy Taylor
00:06:06I think what you've just described is actually mentorship really quickly.
Joy Taylor
00:06:10There are many people who just need exposure and can't break through the wall to get it themselves.
Joy Taylor
00:06:17There's an individual I'm thinking of who truly wanted to be recognized, wanted an opportunity to be recognized.
Joy Taylor
00:06:26I only had one job, and that was to simply help them.
Joy Taylor
00:06:30All I had to really do was name drop, for lack of a better term, and invite them to a place where an audience was presented so they could shine.
Joy Taylor
00:06:41But when you don't have the ability to open that door, how are you supposed to get in without looking obnoxious or looking like you're knocking too hard?
Joy Taylor
00:06:50So if you can find a great mentor, an advocate.
Joy Taylor
00:06:54But it starts with the first thing you said.
Joy Taylor
00:06:57They told me what they wanted.
Joy Taylor
00:07:00I do not have telepathy.
Joy Taylor
00:07:02I wish I did.
Joy Taylor
00:07:03Man, do I wish I had telepathy.
Joy Taylor
00:07:05Well, maybe I don't.
Joy Taylor
00:07:06Maybe you don't really want to know everything people are thinking.
Joy Taylor
00:07:08But I don't have telepathy.
Joy Taylor
00:07:09But if there is something that an individual that works with me, desires and wants in order to grow and I think it is in within their grasp, I'm happy to expose them to it and give them the chance to try.
Adam Berman
00:07:22One of the things that I personally experienced and I've witnessed you do many times, is give people the space to share that request, to share that gap in an environment where it's particularly tough for certain individuals to share that for it may be a sign of vulnerability or weakness or a reason not to get promoted or a raise.
Adam Berman
00:07:51What would you recommend other executives do, other business owners do, to create that space so people can raise their hand and say, I want exposure to this.
Adam Berman
00:08:00I need help with this.
Joy Taylor
00:08:02Unfortunately, what you have described is a culture problem.
Joy Taylor
00:08:05If you are in an organization that has created a blockage for people to ask for assistance, you're going to see people walk out the door.
Joy Taylor
00:08:14People are fragile.
Joy Taylor
00:08:15They really are even the strongest of personalities.
Joy Taylor
00:08:18The one sitting in this chair right now is fragile.
Joy Taylor
00:08:22And if you don't feel like you can be yourself or that you can be safe in asking for something, why would you want to work there?
Joy Taylor
00:08:31You're talking about a culture problem.
Joy Taylor
00:08:32So if an executive is listening, you must create the space for people to be safe.
Joy Taylor
00:08:38Now, I don't need to complain, but if people want an opportunity, they need to be able to ask for that.
Joy Taylor
00:08:45And if you don't think they're ready, that's always that.
Joy Taylor
00:08:47That's the gap, right?
Joy Taylor
00:08:48That's the arch.
Joy Taylor
00:08:49A person asks for exposure for an opportunity and they're truly not quite ready.
Joy Taylor
00:08:55The executive has to ask themselves a question, which is, do I believe they can ever be ready?
Joy Taylor
00:09:03It's a fair question to ask.
Joy Taylor
00:09:05Is there something I can do to help them get ready?
Joy Taylor
00:09:08Or do I need to have a truth talk moment that explains to them, this may not be a path that I see you thriving in, and here's why I believe that.
Joy Taylor
00:09:19Giving them the opportunity to either sit down and rethink the request or maybe go someplace else to find that.
Joy Taylor
00:09:27But we need to make it a fair playing ground, and we shouldn't lie to people about the things they want to achieve.
Adam Berman
00:09:33Have you been in an environment where maybe the culture hadn't evolved to a point where it was safe for employees?
Adam Berman
00:09:41You come into it either as an advisor or an executive and see this challenge.
Adam Berman
00:09:48How can you influence the world and start that culture to migrate to a safer spot?
Joy Taylor
00:09:57That is such a fun question to answer.
Joy Taylor
00:10:00So let's not lie about the places I've been.
Joy Taylor
00:10:03GE High Performance Organization.
Joy Taylor
00:10:05IBM High Performance Organization.
Joy Taylor
00:10:08Grant Thornton High Performance Organization.
Joy Taylor
00:10:12PwC High Performance Organization.
Joy Taylor
00:10:16You either show up or they show you out.
Joy Taylor
00:10:19I mean, GE was famous for the bottom 10%.
Joy Taylor
00:10:22Every year, the bottom 10% either got shifted to a new opportunity to try again or they got shifted out.
Joy Taylor
00:10:29I'm going to start with that.
Joy Taylor
00:10:31It's okay to have a high performing organization and still have room for vulnerability.
Joy Taylor
00:10:37It's harder to find, but it is possible.
Joy Taylor
00:10:40Again, I'm going to go back to the talent person themselves.
Joy Taylor
00:10:43If we're talking about an individual, they have to have the basic bones of being a great performer.
Joy Taylor
00:10:49They need to be in the right place and in the right role.
Joy Taylor
00:10:51And if they are, or they get experience and exposure, they can actually get better.
Joy Taylor
00:10:56But the culture has to allow for the conversation of a little bit of failure first.
Joy Taylor
00:11:01And you're right, that's hard to do.
Joy Taylor
00:11:03And in organizations that are very robust, like the organizations I just described.
Joy Taylor
00:11:06Those are massive organizations.
Joy Taylor
00:11:08It takes a lot to move that chip into a culture of acceptance, of vulnerability.
Joy Taylor
00:11:14And it's okay to fail first.
Joy Taylor
00:11:16I think it's a gift for smaller organizations that you can create that space.
Joy Taylor
00:11:21But I think you have to talk about it.
Joy Taylor
00:11:23Everyone should take a risk in their career at least once.
Adam Berman
00:11:27You talk about turning the cruise ship around.
Adam Berman
00:11:30I've witnessed you do that.
Adam Berman
00:11:31It takes first and foremost, intellect, dogged persistence.
Adam Berman
00:11:36How do you put your ego and vulnerability on hold when it's you against the world?
Joy Taylor
00:11:45I was hoping you were going to say it took courage.
Joy Taylor
00:11:47Because I think when I think back on the time that I did that, I believe the example you and I are sharing in our heads.
Joy Taylor
00:11:52I had a destination that was very clear in my mind about where I needed to go and what I needed to do to get there.
Joy Taylor
00:12:01And I mustered the continuous courage to make that happen.
Joy Taylor
00:12:05I was also in a very unique position that I wasn't afraid.
Joy Taylor
00:12:09I know courage and anti fear seems kind of at polar opposites.
Joy Taylor
00:12:13It's not.
Joy Taylor
00:12:14You still have to have the courage even though you're not afraid.
Joy Taylor
00:12:16I stepped onto the platform that was offered and I decided to use my voice and I'll stick with your request to put my humble pie, you know, over here.
Joy Taylor
00:12:24I play chess in my head a lot about the what if scenarios that can take place under difficult circumstances.
Joy Taylor
00:12:31And then I lean in.
Joy Taylor
00:12:33I have every intention of getting to the destination that I seek.
Adam Berman
00:12:36That ties into my next question nicely.
Adam Berman
00:12:38Well played.
Adam Berman
00:12:39There have been lots of pivotal moments in your career that I'm aware of.
Adam Berman
00:12:43Some wonderful stories there.
Adam Berman
00:12:45All of them built something within you.
Adam Berman
00:12:47Courage, resilience, new capacity, whatever that may be.
Adam Berman
00:12:52Could you share a couple of those pivotal moments that.
Adam Berman
00:12:55What were they and what did you get from them that allowed you to be so successful, that enabled that success to come later on in your career?
Joy Taylor
00:13:03I'm going to tell you a story that I don't think you know.
Adam Berman
00:13:06Can we bet a dollar on this one?
Joy Taylor
00:13:07We can.
Adam Berman
00:13:08All right.
Joy Taylor
00:13:09I.
Joy Taylor
00:13:09I went to the University of Florida for my undergraduate degree and then I went to the University of South Florida for my mba, my master's degrees.
Joy Taylor
00:13:16I loved.
Joy Taylor
00:13:17I love school.
Joy Taylor
00:13:18The big fan.
Joy Taylor
00:13:18I would go back now.
Joy Taylor
00:13:19In fact, I'm thinking about going to law school.
Joy Taylor
00:13:22I'm not thinking about going to law school, but I do enjoy education.
Joy Taylor
00:13:27At the time at the University of South Florida, I was actually working for the dean of the College of Business and he ran A program that allowed me exposure to a lot of executives in the Tampa Bay area.
Joy Taylor
00:13:38So, technically, my very first job out of graduate school was working for an organization that I will not name because it is still very much in the world and wildly successful.
Joy Taylor
00:13:50And the executive that was in this program at the University of South Florida hired me to work with that organization.
Joy Taylor
00:13:57And for the first six weeks, she encouraged me to travel around and look at the different distribution models that they had.
Joy Taylor
00:14:06And I traveled the country looking at these different organizations, seeing how they operated.
Joy Taylor
00:14:11And when I got back from that six weeks, I got fired.
Joy Taylor
00:14:15And I didn't know why.
Joy Taylor
00:14:16I genuinely didn't know why, until another person sat me down and said, what have you been doing for the last six weeks?
Joy Taylor
00:14:23And I said, what my boss told me to do.
Joy Taylor
00:14:26Go and look and experience these other distributor models and see what they were doing.
Joy Taylor
00:14:33And he goes, do you think we pay people to just travel and look around?
Joy Taylor
00:14:37He's like, what do you think the expectation was?
Joy Taylor
00:14:40And the answer I had to give was, I actually had no idea other than to learn.
Joy Taylor
00:14:45And he goes, yes, we don't pay people to learn.
Joy Taylor
00:14:48And I thought, okay.
Joy Taylor
00:14:49That has been carried with me my entire career, which is why every single engagement I have starts with a statement of work.
Joy Taylor
00:14:59And I ask the question, what is your expectation of this project, of this event, of this conversation?
Joy Taylor
00:15:08What do you want out of this?
Joy Taylor
00:15:10And what do you want my role to be?
Joy Taylor
00:15:14I was embarrassed.
Joy Taylor
00:15:15I was the top of my class.
Joy Taylor
00:15:18I got a great job, and I got fired in six weeks.
Joy Taylor
00:15:23And I really didn't understand why.
Joy Taylor
00:15:26And that's carried through.
Joy Taylor
00:15:27That was the first.
Joy Taylor
00:15:28First lesson has never left me.
Adam Berman
00:15:31I'm going to ask you to transfer that learning to your approach to talent.
Adam Berman
00:15:38So anytime you have an engagement, you make sure that the expectations are clear between the organization and yourself.
Adam Berman
00:15:45Not that there's a.
Adam Berman
00:15:47A written contract between talent and organizations.
Adam Berman
00:15:51Some places there is, but there's certainly an unwritten understanding that there's an obligation both between talent and leadership.
Adam Berman
00:16:01How did that experience impact your approach to talent?
Joy Taylor
00:16:05Love this question.
Joy Taylor
00:16:08I actually do think it starts in the interview.
Joy Taylor
00:16:10I think we set expectations the minute you interview someone.
Joy Taylor
00:16:14I happen to take interviewing personally.
Joy Taylor
00:16:18I interviewed every person that ever joined my firm, the one that you and I work together at and the one I am building right now.
Joy Taylor
00:16:25I have interviewed and will continue to interview every person that gets hired.
Joy Taylor
00:16:30And I do ask, what do you want when you get here?
Joy Taylor
00:16:34What are your expectations?
Joy Taylor
00:16:36My favorite question is, tell me something.
Joy Taylor
00:16:38Tell me an Experience that you absolutely don't want to have in this company.
Joy Taylor
00:16:43Because most people, sadly enough most people are running from a job.
Joy Taylor
00:16:48They're not always running to an opportunity.
Joy Taylor
00:16:51Sometimes they are.
Joy Taylor
00:16:52But everyone is still running from a historical, possibly bad experience and they want to make sure they don't ever have that experience again.
Joy Taylor
00:17:03I love those stories.
Joy Taylor
00:17:05What are, what are the bad things that have happened in other companies?
Joy Taylor
00:17:08And I am hopeful that I am not designing any of those things in my current company.
Joy Taylor
00:17:13I mean, think about that.
Joy Taylor
00:17:14If we only built companies that were made by the best version of the old companies brought forth, we'd be unstoppable.
Adam Berman
00:17:23I have to put a pin in that one because I want people.
Adam Berman
00:17:26If you're driving, pull over and write this one down.
Adam Berman
00:17:31So common for people to be motivated to look for their next role because something's amiss where they are currently.
Adam Berman
00:17:38It could be something as simple as the pay isn't right, the commute's too far.
Adam Berman
00:17:42More often than not it's something significantly more meaningful that from that.
Adam Berman
00:17:47So understanding the motivation why somebody is looking to leave is critical.
Adam Berman
00:17:52That is not a reason to hire somebody.
Adam Berman
00:17:55They need to demonstrate to you why this opportunity that they are being interviewed for is right for them.
Adam Berman
00:18:03So it's a little bit of that gravitational and antimatter kind of pushing and pulling.
Adam Berman
00:18:10If they're both not there, it's either not the right role for them or their reason for leaving is not that strong.
Adam Berman
00:18:20And your ability to keep them and not have them second guessed it and make the right choice is going to be limited.
Adam Berman
00:18:26So I love that and I see that all the time with all the executives I interview, CEOs, CFOs, I usually can understand pretty quickly why they're looking to leave, but why they're looking at this particular opportunity, they need to be able to communicate that effectively.
Adam Berman
00:18:46So in that moment when you're interviewing those people, what are you looking to hear?
Adam Berman
00:18:51So this is the advice now for potentially to that job seeker who's going to sit in front of Troy Taylor.
Joy Taylor
00:18:58So I'm going to have to say that's a complicated question.
Joy Taylor
00:19:01It depends on the level of the individual I'm looking to hire.
Joy Taylor
00:19:04If I'm looking for an executive that I want to lead, I want them to be motivational, I want them to be inspirational.
Joy Taylor
00:19:12And in our world and the world of consulting, I need them to have confidence, competence, clearly, ideally a book of business, meaning a network and know how to access the network that's at the highest levels.
Joy Taylor
00:19:28And I'm going to test that.
Joy Taylor
00:19:30I'm going.
Joy Taylor
00:19:31You should know.
Joy Taylor
00:19:31Secret.
Joy Taylor
00:19:32A secret of Joy Taylor coming at you.
Joy Taylor
00:19:34When I interview people, one of the first things I do is I go onto LinkedIn.
Joy Taylor
00:19:37It's a great tool for this.
Joy Taylor
00:19:39And I try and find out who we are connected to before the interview.
Joy Taylor
00:19:45If I'm connected to someone, I write them.
Joy Taylor
00:19:48And you know that's true because I've written you.
Joy Taylor
00:19:50I'm about to interview someone and it appears that we are connected.
Joy Taylor
00:19:53What do you think of this person?
Joy Taylor
00:19:55And I do that for about two or three people until I get a response back.
Joy Taylor
00:20:00All positive reviews.
Joy Taylor
00:20:02I'm anxious and excited for the interview.
Joy Taylor
00:20:04Mixed reviews.
Joy Taylor
00:20:05I'm still anxious for the interview.
Joy Taylor
00:20:08Negative reviews.
Joy Taylor
00:20:10It might be a shorter interview.
Joy Taylor
00:20:11I'll still have it.
Joy Taylor
00:20:13But I'll.
Joy Taylor
00:20:14I'll just be investigating.
Adam Berman
00:20:17I love that.
Adam Berman
00:20:18I do that all the time.
Adam Berman
00:20:20But.
Adam Berman
00:20:21Here comes the but.
Joy Taylor
00:20:22Oh yeah, there's always a but.
Adam Berman
00:20:22And Joy always told me, don't say but, say and and because it's more inclusive.
Adam Berman
00:20:26But.
Adam Berman
00:20:26Here's my but.
Adam Berman
00:20:27Okay, I say with a chuckle, don't tell your husband I said here's my butt.
Adam Berman
00:20:32For the record, Joy's husband is a former collegiate football player.
Joy Taylor
00:20:38Professional too.
Adam Berman
00:20:39NFL and Canadian Football League great.
Adam Berman
00:20:42Cup champion multiple times.
Joy Taylor
00:20:44Yeah.
Adam Berman
00:20:45And someone I adore.
Adam Berman
00:20:47Not as much as Joy, but I adore.
Adam Berman
00:20:49But if I ever misstepped, he'd kill me.
Joy Taylor
00:20:50Yes, he would.
Adam Berman
00:20:51All right.
Adam Berman
00:20:53We have to avoid the bias of our friendship.
Adam Berman
00:20:57So when I call Joy Taylor with the same question and Joy Taylor tells me that this person is an unbelievable talent, I'm predisposed to think, just hire him or her.
Joy Taylor
00:21:08Yes.
Adam Berman
00:21:09There must have been times when the advice you got didn't match necessarily the needs of the organization.
Adam Berman
00:21:17So yes, the candidate might be extraordinary.
Adam Berman
00:21:20How do you catch yourself?
Adam Berman
00:21:22And don't let that bias of friendship, trusted advisors that you, that you have around you influence final decision.
Joy Taylor
00:21:31I say this with love.
Joy Taylor
00:21:33Everything Adam says and it writes me back about a person is not always what I'm looking for either.
Joy Taylor
00:21:39And you are just an opinion holder.
Joy Taylor
00:21:41And you're an n of 1.
Joy Taylor
00:21:43I'm still having to look at the candidate to determine whether or not they meet the need of my organization at the time.
Joy Taylor
00:21:49Their own personal interview is still worth 80%.
Joy Taylor
00:21:52You offer a 20% boost to them automatically, but they have the opportunity to really screw it up.
Joy Taylor
00:21:59And they may not be looking for the same thing that I am.
Joy Taylor
00:22:02You know, I'm a different beast.
Joy Taylor
00:22:04If you are looking for money, if that's the first thing out of your mouth.
Joy Taylor
00:22:09If that's the motivation to join an organization, you and I will not be working long together.
Joy Taylor
00:22:15I want you to love what you do.
Joy Taylor
00:22:17I want people to want to have a new opportunity.
Joy Taylor
00:22:21I want to expose.
Joy Taylor
00:22:22I want to grow.
Joy Taylor
00:22:23I want to explore.
Joy Taylor
00:22:25I want to experiment.
Joy Taylor
00:22:26Any of the E words.
Joy Taylor
00:22:27You know, I.
Joy Taylor
00:22:29I am looking for attitude.
Joy Taylor
00:22:32You can train anybody to do almost anything, but attitude, that's a bit of DNA, and I'm.
Joy Taylor
00:22:38I'm looking for DNA.
Adam Berman
00:22:40When you're in a recruiting process, it's a lot like the dating process.
Joy Taylor
00:22:44Oh, for sure.
Adam Berman
00:22:45It's a great example.
Adam Berman
00:22:46I dress up, I put on cologne.
Adam Berman
00:22:49I'm articulate, I'm polite.
Adam Berman
00:22:51I say please and thank you.
Adam Berman
00:22:52How do you weed through that and realize it's not just first state good behavior, but this is actually somebody who is an exceptional talent that I should be considering to add to the team.
Joy Taylor
00:23:07So, second life lesson.
Joy Taylor
00:23:10So my first lesson was from when I got fired, which, by the way, did you know that.
Joy Taylor
00:23:13That story.
Joy Taylor
00:23:14I owe you a dollar, okay?
Joy Taylor
00:23:15Just check out that story.
Joy Taylor
00:23:16Yeah, because I don't tell.
Joy Taylor
00:23:16I hardly tell anyone.
Joy Taylor
00:23:17I've just told the world now, but I rarely tell people.
Joy Taylor
00:23:19I got fired from my first job in six weeks.
Adam Berman
00:23:22Our listenership is only North American South America.
Adam Berman
00:23:25It's not the world yet.
Adam Berman
00:23:26We're expanding into Europe.
Joy Taylor
00:23:27You never know.
Joy Taylor
00:23:28I'm the first podcast it could be.
Joy Taylor
00:23:31Second work lesson.
Joy Taylor
00:23:34My husband and I are foster parents.
Joy Taylor
00:23:38We've had over 20 children in our home in the last 12 years.
Joy Taylor
00:23:42We specialize in sibling placements, which is why the number is so high.
Joy Taylor
00:23:46And it's a gift.
Joy Taylor
00:23:48It has changed my children's lives.
Joy Taylor
00:23:50It has changed our lives.
Joy Taylor
00:23:52And I would like to believe that we have changed many of their lives.
Joy Taylor
00:23:57But what we've come to learn is anyone can hold it together for seven days.
Joy Taylor
00:24:02I parallel that.
Joy Taylor
00:24:04Everyone can hold it together for an interview, 30 minutes, maybe even an hour.
Joy Taylor
00:24:11It is why you need to do multiple interviews with multiple people.
Joy Taylor
00:24:16And if you are an extraordinary organization, which I learned from my friend Adam Berman, you equip your various interviewers with various different questions.
Joy Taylor
00:24:27Behavioral capability testing, skillset and capability testing, attitude problem solving testing.
Joy Taylor
00:24:37And then the genuine heartbeat of a person around the things that make them nervous or scared.
Joy Taylor
00:24:46And you need to ask people those questions that if they can't come up with an answer to the last one, what makes you nervous and scared, they're probably not someone you want to work with.
Joy Taylor
00:24:56But all those different interviews Offer a really nice layer of learning about a person, the whole person, not just what they bring to one 30 minute interview.
Joy Taylor
00:25:08And I think people can hold it together for an interview period of time, but can they hold it together five times with the same organization?
Joy Taylor
00:25:17Perhaps become a little intolerant at the process.
Joy Taylor
00:25:20I think that's when you find out who they're really made of.
Adam Berman
00:25:24Can I ask you that question?
Adam Berman
00:25:26What scares you in those moments in.
Joy Taylor
00:25:29The world of consulting?
Adam Berman
00:25:30Yeah.
Joy Taylor
00:25:33Someone'S going to find out one day that I'm a complete imposter.
Joy Taylor
00:25:36That's what's going to happen.
Joy Taylor
00:25:39That's that it's just going to go wrong.
Joy Taylor
00:25:43That something big is going to go wrong.
Joy Taylor
00:25:46I'm a true type A personality.
Joy Taylor
00:25:48I am an all in must get right, which might be why people like to work with me because I really don't care about the money, I don't care about.
Joy Taylor
00:25:57I'm not going to bill you for this hour that I got wrong, that type of thing.
Joy Taylor
00:26:01But I really do love my work.
Joy Taylor
00:26:03And if I gave bad work that someone really didn't like, that scares me.
Adam Berman
00:26:09Hey, let's take a quick commercial break to remind our listeners of the value that Kreischer Miller's retained.
Adam Berman
00:26:14Executive search adds.
Adam Berman
00:26:15Are you struggling to find those executives that have those rare one of a kind skills and who are also a cultural fit for your organization not just today, but well into the future?
Adam Berman
00:26:25If so, let's have a conversation.
Adam Berman
00:26:28We find extraordinary executive talent for the unique needs of your organization.
Adam Berman
00:26:33You can find more about the practice@www.kmco.com.
Adam Berman
00:26:39loving your work ties back to one of the elements of corporate culture.
Adam Berman
00:26:46Given that you sit at the top of the pyramid and you get to survey the landscape that's out there and the talent ecosystem, what are some of the most significant challenges that you're seeing there as it relates to culture and hiring?
Joy Taylor
00:27:03Wow.
Joy Taylor
00:27:04The topic of the day continues to be work from home.
Joy Taylor
00:27:10It really does.
Joy Taylor
00:27:11I'm surprised that it continues to make the headline every day.
Joy Taylor
00:27:17Amazon's recent announcement that they are bringing everybody back to work is the beginning of other organizations allowing them to take the lead.
Joy Taylor
00:27:26Because many organizations have been waiting for somebody big to make a declaration.
Joy Taylor
00:27:32Amazon did it and there are going to be many others that follow.
Joy Taylor
00:27:37It is my opinion that work from home is a lot like let's centralize this year.
Joy Taylor
00:27:43Let's decentralize this year.
Joy Taylor
00:27:44Let's centralize this year.
Joy Taylor
00:27:46No, let's decentralize this year.
Joy Taylor
00:27:48I think we're going to see A mixture of organizations out there.
Joy Taylor
00:27:51We're going to continue to see a mix of organizations who have figured out that there is a.
Joy Taylor
00:27:55There are types of roles and jobs that could and should be done from home.
Joy Taylor
00:28:01I don't need real estate.
Joy Taylor
00:28:03However, it will come at the expense of culture, because working, you do get better and stronger work from people working together with each other.
Joy Taylor
00:28:17It doesn't have to be every day, though.
Joy Taylor
00:28:20But I do believe that is part of the culture mix that we are still going to have to master.
Joy Taylor
00:28:26And I realize I didn't answer whether or not you should or should not, but I think it's a fine mix.
Adam Berman
00:28:33I'm going to pontificate.
Adam Berman
00:28:35Please.
Adam Berman
00:28:36I agree with you.
Adam Berman
00:28:37And I'm going to point to a meeting that you and I went to, a workshop that we facilitated.
Adam Berman
00:28:44The greatest learning that I had in terms of strategic facilitation was not in all the prep that we did leading into the event.
Adam Berman
00:28:55It was on the train ride home from Manhattan when you did a debrief and said, here's what you did really well.
Adam Berman
00:29:00Here's what you need to work on.
Adam Berman
00:29:02So that the meeting, after the meeting, the informal conversations that happen as people walk down the hallway working from home, there's no way to replace those things.
Adam Berman
00:29:14That being said, there are some roles.
Adam Berman
00:29:15If you're a fireman, I'm sorry, you don't get to work from home.
Adam Berman
00:29:18However, there are certain roles that can be done very effectively from home in many cases as well.
Adam Berman
00:29:27That balance, however, of sacrificing culture from work, from home.
Adam Berman
00:29:35I have yet to see an organization that can consistently scale culture across zoom and teams.
Adam Berman
00:29:44They do nice, fun things, but that's not culture.
Adam Berman
00:29:47Those are nice, fun moments.
Joy Taylor
00:29:49I agree.
Joy Taylor
00:29:51In addition to that, we can't lure people into the office over pizza.
Adam Berman
00:29:57I love pizza.
Joy Taylor
00:29:58As do I, but not every day.
Joy Taylor
00:30:01And that can't be the center of the meeting.
Joy Taylor
00:30:05Come have pizza and we'll have a team meeting.
Joy Taylor
00:30:08I'm really going to brag on Alliant.
Joy Taylor
00:30:10I am.
Joy Taylor
00:30:11There is something crazy different about this company, and I don't say that lightly at all.
Joy Taylor
00:30:20The energy, you feel it when you walk in the door of the building and they're on the 20th floor.
Joy Taylor
00:30:27I'm not kidding.
Joy Taylor
00:30:28Very different.
Joy Taylor
00:30:29The energy of the people that want to be there.
Joy Taylor
00:30:33You know, I teeter on the edge of it being dangerously like a family.
Joy Taylor
00:30:37I have a family, and there's some members.
Joy Taylor
00:30:39I don't like that.
Joy Taylor
00:30:40Well, you know what I'm saying.
Joy Taylor
00:30:41You and I have talked about that.
Joy Taylor
00:30:42Many times.
Joy Taylor
00:30:43But this, this is a group of people that want to be working together and want to help each other.
Joy Taylor
00:30:49And it is because it is a high performing culture that embraces each other and openly allows the weird to show up, which I love.
Joy Taylor
00:31:01You know how I feel about weird.
Joy Taylor
00:31:02I like a little weird every day in, in, in my, in my work environment.
Adam Berman
00:31:05You hired me.
Joy Taylor
00:31:06Amen to that.
Joy Taylor
00:31:07And it takes one to know one.
Joy Taylor
00:31:09But I think building a culture is.
Joy Taylor
00:31:13Gosh, I hope we don't go and clone people.
Joy Taylor
00:31:15That's just it though.
Joy Taylor
00:31:16You, you can't clone the perfect person and make that your culture.
Joy Taylor
00:31:20We simply need to embrace that.
Joy Taylor
00:31:23People need to come to work as they are, hire them for what you want them to do.
Joy Taylor
00:31:26And then here's the, here's the kicker.
Joy Taylor
00:31:28Expect them to do it because as you know, you've worked with me long enough.
Joy Taylor
00:31:32I am tolerant of a lot of things, but poor performance isn't one of them.
Joy Taylor
00:31:37I want you to be fun.
Joy Taylor
00:31:38I want you to be weird.
Joy Taylor
00:31:40I want you to work any hour of the 24th cycle.
Joy Taylor
00:31:43That makes you best.
Joy Taylor
00:31:45I really don't care if you work at
3:00 in the morning.
Joy Taylor
00:31:47Do not call me for that timeframe.
Joy Taylor
00:31:49Just thought I'd point that out.
Joy Taylor
00:31:51But what I want is great work.
Joy Taylor
00:31:53And what organizations need to remember is if you want to create a culture where people are the best of whatever it is that you offer, you cannot tolerate non best work.
Adam Berman
00:32:03I want to combine some of that answer with something we touched on a little bit earlier in the podcast.
Adam Berman
00:32:07Somebody sneaks through the interview process.
Joy Taylor
00:32:10They always do.
Adam Berman
00:32:11You know, we've all, we've all dated people who we thought passed the interview and then we realized shortly thereafter, uh.
Joy Taylor
00:32:16Oh, some people married them.
Joy Taylor
00:32:17Yes, we know.
Joy Taylor
00:32:18Yeah.
Adam Berman
00:32:19Have you ever hired somebody who was extraordinarily talented?
Adam Berman
00:32:24Fooled you on the.
Adam Berman
00:32:26I won't say cultural fit because that implies compliance and not allowing to bring your authentic self to work.
Adam Berman
00:32:31But they were culturally additive.
Adam Berman
00:32:33You believe that they were going to be a nice addition to the team and they Scooby Doo'd you at the end.
Adam Berman
00:32:40They rip off the mask and you realize they're not who we thought they were.
Adam Berman
00:32:45When that's happened, that's happened to everybody.
Adam Berman
00:32:47Yes.
Adam Berman
00:32:48I can think of a couple of examples that we might have in common.
Adam Berman
00:32:51Yes.
Adam Berman
00:32:52When that's happened, what have you learned from that?
Adam Berman
00:32:55What can you carry forward to lessen the likelihood of it happening again?
Adam Berman
00:33:00They'll always be still always be somebody who's just a great interviewer.
Joy Taylor
00:33:04But agreed.
Joy Taylor
00:33:06I have two examples in my head.
Adam Berman
00:33:07Don't use me.
Joy Taylor
00:33:10Darn it.
Joy Taylor
00:33:10That was going to be my example.
Joy Taylor
00:33:12I have two examples, interesting enough, a male and a female.
Joy Taylor
00:33:15Two very different roles.
Joy Taylor
00:33:17I'm going to go with the male example first.
Joy Taylor
00:33:18In my head, he came through the interview process and as a human being, you believed he would be successful.
Joy Taylor
00:33:26He had all the right qualifications, more than just the interview, just a great human being.
Joy Taylor
00:33:30He did great work.
Joy Taylor
00:33:31However, we put him in a role of a senior executive.
Joy Taylor
00:33:35And in the world of senior executive, I mentioned it before, you have to do great work.
Joy Taylor
00:33:39You have to be able to lead people, motivate people, and sell and do client delivery.
Joy Taylor
00:33:44In the world of consulting, he continued to fail on the selling aspect.
Joy Taylor
00:33:49And at a certain point the question becomes, we really, really like this person.
Joy Taylor
00:33:54And in the role that they're doing, they meet all the criteria except the one biggest one that matters.
Joy Taylor
00:33:59In, in our world, where revenue generation is, is the metric, I'm not gonna say he wasn't a cultural fit.
Joy Taylor
00:34:06However, you quickly find a person who's not fitting within the culture, which is different.
Joy Taylor
00:34:13And then he became a non cultural fit because he could feel the anxiety, he could feel the attitude change towards him.
Joy Taylor
00:34:23And he then began to behave differently.
Joy Taylor
00:34:26Defensive, argumentative.
Joy Taylor
00:34:29I'm going to go back, very defensive.
Joy Taylor
00:34:32And then it breaks down and unfortunately we probably let it go on too long.
Joy Taylor
00:34:38And then we had to have that difficult conversation which is we can both agree that you're not meeting the expectation, what do you want me to do about that?
Joy Taylor
00:34:48And the reality is that the conversation that came about was, I know, and I hate myself because I can't do it.
Joy Taylor
00:34:55And what's really sad, I'm moving into a different direction here.
Joy Taylor
00:34:58What's interesting is there is always two options.
Joy Taylor
00:35:01No one ever wants to take the second option.
Adam Berman
00:35:04Option one is leave.
Joy Taylor
00:35:08Option two, stay and take a demotion.
Joy Taylor
00:35:11We love you here.
Joy Taylor
00:35:12We love the work that you do.
Joy Taylor
00:35:14Please let me stop having the expectation that you're going to meet all the criteria and the one biggest one that's most important about this role, no one's going to bring you in front of a room and start laughing at you.
Joy Taylor
00:35:25Yes.
Joy Taylor
00:35:26Are people going to talk?
Joy Taylor
00:35:27Yes, for about five hot minutes.
Joy Taylor
00:35:30And then if you continue doing great work, all will be done.
Joy Taylor
00:35:33And the irony is, at the other company I worked for, I finally met someone who took option two.
Joy Taylor
00:35:39They were so happy.
Joy Taylor
00:35:41Everybody was happy and nobody, interestingly enough, they did talk for five hot minutes.
Joy Taylor
00:35:48Oh my gosh, this person Took a demotion.
Joy Taylor
00:35:50Great.
Joy Taylor
00:35:50Did you want to go work on that project?
Joy Taylor
00:35:52Yes, I do.
Joy Taylor
00:35:53Okay, let's go.
Joy Taylor
00:35:54But rarely do you meet someone who wants to take option two.
Joy Taylor
00:35:57Okay, I'm going to go to the female this time.
Joy Taylor
00:36:00We hired a female in our organization.
Joy Taylor
00:36:03She changed the company with her work.
Joy Taylor
00:36:05It was extraordinary.
Joy Taylor
00:36:08It set a boundary.
Joy Taylor
00:36:10It set a level of expectation.
Joy Taylor
00:36:12Oh, my gosh, better than I had ever dreamed it could be for a person to deliver that kind of work.
Joy Taylor
00:36:18But, man, was she difficult to work with.
Joy Taylor
00:36:20And if she didn't like you, if she didn't like you, she had the gumption to tell it to your face.
Joy Taylor
00:36:28The problem was she didn't like a lot of people and people who needed her work, and that became problematic.
Joy Taylor
00:36:36And the lesson, and I know you're asking this question because you know who I'm talking about, the problem was that the CEO, that was me, really liked her because she served my needs.
Joy Taylor
00:36:49She made me look good.
Joy Taylor
00:36:51She kept doing extraordinary work, and I kept her about six months too long because she broke our culture for a lot longer.
Joy Taylor
00:36:59And people told me, and I continued to ignore it until something overt happened for which it just broke our.
Joy Taylor
00:37:09It broke the comp.
Adam Berman
00:37:10It.
Joy Taylor
00:37:11It went against our value system, and then it was done.
Adam Berman
00:37:15So advice to other executives right now with that sort of topic.
Adam Berman
00:37:20We all know, we've heard it a million times.
Adam Berman
00:37:22Brilliant.
Adam Berman
00:37:23People are on Oprah talking about it.
Adam Berman
00:37:25Adam Grant is writing books about it.
Adam Berman
00:37:26Hire slowly, Fire quickly.
Adam Berman
00:37:28Right.
Adam Berman
00:37:28We all know that you talked a little bit about your personal feeling.
Adam Berman
00:37:37But in general, why is it that we are so slow to take action when we know something is trending in a way where there's an opportunity to course correct, but we choose to just go to bed at night and think about course correcting and not actually do that?
Adam Berman
00:37:55What.
Adam Berman
00:37:56What is that that holds all of us back?
Joy Taylor
00:37:59I'm only laughing at you because 50% of the world is getting divorced right now.
Joy Taylor
00:38:03And this is a divorce question.
Joy Taylor
00:38:04Why did we wait so long to try and course correct?
Joy Taylor
00:38:07I imagine that of the 50% of people that get divorced, I'd say 50% of those probably could have been salvaged had you just had an honest conversation.
Joy Taylor
00:38:15People are really tolerant.
Joy Taylor
00:38:16They really are.
Joy Taylor
00:38:17Even with bad stuff.
Joy Taylor
00:38:18We're too afraid to have the conversation because I think we're afraid of the other part.
Joy Taylor
00:38:22We're afraid that it will go completely south, and I don't know why.
Joy Taylor
00:38:25I'm certainly not that person anymore.
Joy Taylor
00:38:27That was a hard lesson.
Joy Taylor
00:38:28We've now covered A third lesson that Joy Taylor has brought forward in her career.
Joy Taylor
00:38:32If you do meet an individual who is breaking your culture and you know it, stop lying to yourself.
Joy Taylor
00:38:36If you have the power to do something about that, you should going to.
Adam Berman
00:38:39Switch gears and talk about something a little bit easier, I think.
Adam Berman
00:38:41Oh, thank goodness you're in the professional services business.
Joy Taylor
00:38:45Yes, I am.
Adam Berman
00:38:46Talent is your product in many ways.
Adam Berman
00:38:50But you have advised and consulted with folks, businesses whose product is a product, it's not people.
Adam Berman
00:39:00How does the approach to talent differ?
Adam Berman
00:39:03Or is there a difference in approaching talent when they are your product in management consulting versus, let's say, in manufacturing organizations that's making creams and lotions and tablets and pills.
Joy Taylor
00:39:18Talent is currency irrespective of the business that you're in.
Adam Berman
00:39:23Let's quote that trade market and call it our own.
Joy Taylor
00:39:27Okay, that sounds fair.
Joy Taylor
00:39:29I just believe that.
Joy Taylor
00:39:30Hard stop.
Joy Taylor
00:39:33Sorry for the short answer, but hard stop.
Adam Berman
00:39:35The short answer means it's easy to understand.
Joy Taylor
00:39:37It is.
Adam Berman
00:39:38All right, so I described you earlier as a Pied Piper for people.
Adam Berman
00:39:42People follow you.
Adam Berman
00:39:45They will try things that they themselves did not believe they had the capability to do because of you.
Adam Berman
00:39:51So now they're there.
Adam Berman
00:39:53How would you share with other executives?
Adam Berman
00:39:57How do you keep your people?
Adam Berman
00:39:59What do you do to keep them there?
Adam Berman
00:40:03Keep them thriving, keep them contributing, keep them engaged, keep them growing.
Adam Berman
00:40:09Even at the executive level, I have.
Joy Taylor
00:40:12A philosophy that people want to be noticed.
Joy Taylor
00:40:15They don't have to be noticed.
Joy Taylor
00:40:16Every day since I have been a boss of anyone, a manager of anyone, I have scheduled time with every employee under my responsibility every year, at least once.
Joy Taylor
00:40:32And I say that because I.
Joy Taylor
00:40:34At Grant Thornton, I had almost 400 people.
Joy Taylor
00:40:37I met with every single one of them at least once a year.
Joy Taylor
00:40:41Just them.
Joy Taylor
00:40:42It's their time.
Joy Taylor
00:40:44And I've always made myself available if anyone wants my time.
Joy Taylor
00:40:47My calendar is always up to date.
Joy Taylor
00:40:49It's ugly, but it's up to date.
Joy Taylor
00:40:52If you need me, you let me know.
Joy Taylor
00:40:53But I make it my business to meet with them at least one time a year, at least, depending, like I said, the number of employees that I might have.
Joy Taylor
00:41:03Now, I meet with them monthly.
Joy Taylor
00:41:04And you ask me the question, what can executives do?
Joy Taylor
00:41:07Notice your people.
Joy Taylor
00:41:10That's it.
Joy Taylor
00:41:11They're just asking to be noticed.
Joy Taylor
00:41:14Take 30 hot minutes, find out how Adam is doing.
Joy Taylor
00:41:20Is there anything I need to know?
Joy Taylor
00:41:22Is there anything you want me to know?
Joy Taylor
00:41:25Two different questions.
Joy Taylor
00:41:27How can I help you?
Joy Taylor
00:41:29You're done with 30 minutes right there.
Joy Taylor
00:41:31You only need those three questions, and you will fill 30 minutes and that person will leave that phone call, that team's call, feeling seen.
Adam Berman
00:41:42Repeat those three questions.
Joy Taylor
00:41:44What do you want me to know?
Joy Taylor
00:41:46What do you need me to know?
Joy Taylor
00:41:47And how can I help you?
Adam Berman
00:41:48I had the privilege of sitting next to you.
Adam Berman
00:41:50We actually moved offices at one point, and Joy decided her office was going to be upstairs.
Adam Berman
00:41:54And I made a deliberate choice to have my office downstairs.
Adam Berman
00:41:58One of the things that I've always heard, it's lonely at the top, right?
Adam Berman
00:42:03And there were times because of the roles that we both had that I was privy to some of the content of the conversations that were going on.
Adam Berman
00:42:12And I saw the anger, the frustration, the personal hurt.
Adam Berman
00:42:16What advice would you give to executives who are lonely at the top?
Adam Berman
00:42:21To minister to themselves, to take care of themselves.
Adam Berman
00:42:26The same way they endeavor to take care of the people that they work with and work for them.
Joy Taylor
00:42:35I'm about to start a 12 step program right here, which is admit you have a need.
Joy Taylor
00:42:39Not admit you have a problem, but admit you have a need.
Joy Taylor
00:42:42Go find someone to talk to.
Joy Taylor
00:42:44Every company has a CEO.
Joy Taylor
00:42:46If it's a company, there's a CEO somewhere, President, someone at the top.
Joy Taylor
00:42:50You don't have to have anything in common operationally to have similar challenges about running a business.
Joy Taylor
00:42:59Find someone to talk to.
Joy Taylor
00:43:01It's that simple.
Joy Taylor
00:43:03Ideally, find someone that's new to you.
Joy Taylor
00:43:08Expand your network really quickly.
Joy Taylor
00:43:10You don't need to talk to a friend.
Joy Taylor
00:43:12You have those.
Joy Taylor
00:43:13They're evidently not satisfying the need.
Joy Taylor
00:43:16Go find someone that doesn't interact with your social circle as well.
Joy Taylor
00:43:23Do not mix social in business.
Joy Taylor
00:43:26In this particular capacity, you need a safe zone.
Joy Taylor
00:43:30You need to be able to call somebody and say, I think I've done something stupid.
Joy Taylor
00:43:34Please.
Joy Taylor
00:43:35I'm about to tell you what I did.
Joy Taylor
00:43:36What's your first take?
Joy Taylor
00:43:38Or how does this sound?
Joy Taylor
00:43:40How do you think your employees would receive this?
Joy Taylor
00:43:43It's a really nice friendship to build with someone.
Joy Taylor
00:43:46And you know, I've done that a lot.
Adam Berman
00:43:47So I do.
Adam Berman
00:43:48I do.
Adam Berman
00:43:50All right, as we get close to the end here, final thoughts, a summary of things that you'd like our listeners to think about to enhance their hiring, their workplace culture, how they develop people.
Adam Berman
00:44:02Drop some wisdom on us.
Joy Taylor
00:44:03All right, I do have an opinion.
Adam Berman
00:44:05Of course you do.
Joy Taylor
00:44:07Go back and read your job description and then write a real one.
Joy Taylor
00:44:11The job descriptions that most organizations write are so they can post it so that it can be publicly seen.
Joy Taylor
00:44:19I am asking you to write an internal version of that job description.
Joy Taylor
00:44:24What do we want?
Joy Taylor
00:44:26What do we need.
Joy Taylor
00:44:28And then I want you to revisit those at least every six months because times change, needs change, roles change.
Joy Taylor
00:44:37But I'd like you to have an internal version of the job description.
Adam Berman
00:44:41Love that.
Adam Berman
00:44:42Joy, thank you very much for sharing your insights on talent, on the work that you're doing, the business community.
Adam Berman
00:44:49And I have to tell you, I'm humbled to have worked with you and to witness all the good you do, not just within the walls of work, but in the community that you live in.
Adam Berman
00:45:01You're making a difference and you're changing the world and it's humbling and inspiring to be around and a lesson not lost on me.
Adam Berman
00:45:08Thank you.
Adam Berman
00:45:09And for more information about you and Alliant Consulting, you can visit where www.alliant.consulting.
Adam Berman
00:45:20i saw that on the web and I have never seen that before.
Adam Berman
00:45:24Pretty cool.
Adam Berman
00:45:25Www.alliant.consulting.
Adam Berman
00:45:28it's where you can find more information on Joy and Alliant.
Adam Berman
00:45:33So if you're struggling to hire your next executive, or if you'd like any information on Kreischer Miller's retained executive search group, please reach out to me@www.kmco.com.
Adam Berman
00:45:44thank you to our listeners for spending a little time with us today.
Adam Berman
00:45:47We hope you learned something.
Adam Berman
00:45:49And thanks for spreading the word about the Talent Talks podcast.
Adam Berman
00:45:52We hope you help us grow our listenership.
Adam Berman
00:45:55If there's any topic you'd like us to cover, please feel free again.
Adam Berman
00:45:59You can catch me at www.kmco.com.
Adam Berman
00:46:04have a great day today and make tomorrow a little bit better for yourself and for those you care about.
Adam Berman
00:46:09Thanks Joy.
Joy Taylor
00:46:10Thank you for letting me be your guest.
