Omar Thomas: Curiosity, The Power of the Platform, and "Mother of a Revolution"

Marianne White: Welcome to Take Notes, a music education podcast where we discuss all things music with a series of special guests. I'm Brian. And I'm Chris. Together, we share stories, inspirational ideas, practical advice, and have a lot of fun in the process. Thanks for joining in. So we've had a lot of great conversations in this first season and we still have plenty more to go. One of the interesting things that I think is great to talk about though, we talk a lot about technique and programming and composing and all those great things. But I think sometimes we dance around this topic, but we don't get into it enough about this idea that music, music education, composition, all of it. right, is the basis for this platform that we all live in, right? This idea that we're, that we are creating that platform, that we have a platform to engage others. I think it's also, it's about having a platform by which we can raise awareness to certain things, whether it's composers, whether it's technique, that's a platform we're using. We're using our platform to teach students about elevating their musicianship. We use our platform to talk about communication, community. inclusion, anything. And I think what we're talking about is music as a platform to communicate different concepts. And we're using this as a platform to teach people not to say burn O-Tays. Yes, that's right. Balmages. We have that and we're using a platform to record this as well. So there's all different kinds of platforms. I see what you did there. Yes. So I just, want to take a moment because I think sometimes we get so locked into, and this is to all of the conductors, music teachers, and I like to say both because some of you think of yourselves as music teachers. Other of you think of yourselves as directors or conductors, but in general, we're all artists, right? We're all trying to further the art of what we do. And we all have this platform, right? As publishers, there's a platform. As conductors, there's a platform. Students, you have a platform. Young composers, seasoned composers, we all have a platform. And I think sometimes we don't talk enough about utilizing that platform ⁓ to, one would hope, further the development, the evolution of us as a species, as we continue on this journey to... wherever we're going. I don't know, where are we going, Chris? No, that's a good question. I mean, I think your point is that you can use these, I think we should have a platform count. How many times are we saying the word platform? I think it's how we use our positions, our platforms. It's how we use the positions that we're in and what we are choosing to use that platform for. And I think recognizing that whatever it is that you're doing, whether you're teaching, whether you're a student, whether you are a publisher, whether you're a podcast host, you stand for something. And we have the opportunity to share with people what we stand for and what we believe in. And that as music teachers, as musicians, as artists, we're pretty transparent. That's one thing that artists are is we kind of put it all out there. We put our heart on our sleeve, we put out who we are, and we kind of open ourselves up for criticism and for acceptance. And recognizing that we are in those positions to spread a message or to share a message or to stand for a message. I think it's something that we haven't really recognized. And I think it's important to realize that words have meaning and words have power. Words can lift people up, it can push others down. And we're all in a position, even just as a member of society, where those words have incredible meaning and what we can do to lift each other up or push somebody else down. It's to reflect on some of that. And I think some of today's conversation might get to that. Yeah, no, I love that. And I think it's funny that we're even talking about this right now because as you know, and as anybody that's listened to our last podcast that we did with Scott Rush, we opened that up with some air quote fan mail, right? ⁓ And I talked about some of the mail that I've received and we've received feedback from quite a few people now ⁓ that were grateful that we actually put that out there because I think a lot of people kind of felt like I'm the only one or I'm the... I think when we launched, when we put that out there, we were like, I wonder how people are going to feel when we lead off with Pride. I mean, just as an idiot. And I know some probably somebody set a firework somewhere, right? But, but, but we know, the, that really resonated with people. And, and what I love is that we were able to use something like that to highlight things that are, that, that we don't talk about enough, right. And that are not out there enough. And we turn that into something that helped a lot of people. And I love that. We used our platform, mark that down on the, whatever the counter. 17. Yeah. To platform it, Lee, talk about these things. That's not a word, but I just wanted to make it a word. Yes, I agree. And I think we're gonna get into some great topics today. This is gonna be an awesome show and I don't know, what do you think? Should we get to it? Hey Chris, guess what? What? Is this a transition? I it's a transition and sometimes- We never talk about transitions. I know, but sometimes you don't need to talk a lot upfront because what you're about to talk about is pretty freaking compelling and amazing. And so I think we should dive in and I am going to say this, right? know people are to start listening to this and they're going to start to enjoy it. You've got, this is one that I will say, you've got to keep going to the end because when we get to the end of this thing, this is where I think some really powerful topics come up. and really important conversations. And so I just want to let listeners know that up front, it's important. There's some beautiful things that we talk about here. I agree. Let's get into it. Welcome back. Our guest today has had his music for jazz concert band and orchestra performed all over the world. Probably most importantly of everything, he is a fellow James Madison University Duke Go Dukes. He was appointed assistant professor of harmony at Berkeley College of Music at the age of 23. I think I'm pretty sure I was off a pacifier by that point. Following his tenure there, he went on to teach in my hometown of Baltimore at the Peabody Institute before joining the faculty at the University of Texas at Austin as Associate Professor of Composition and Jazz Studies. In 2019, he became the first black composer ever to win the NBA Rebellion Award for his piece Come Sunday. His first album debuted at number one on the iTunes Jazz charts because He has a whole jazz background, right? A lot of people don't even know that about him and it's such a huge part of who he is. His recent album, Griot Songs, was nominated in the 57th annual NAACP Image Awards for Outstanding Jazz Album. And of course he is highly sought after as a public speaker and an advocate for music education. And I'm gonna do something that I don't normally do as we introduce guests, but there's been a... a really interesting week this week that had a lot of ⁓ controversy. And as part of that, Omar made this post ⁓ that I think is just one of the most beautiful things that I've ever read from him. And I want to just take a moment and read it. Okay. ⁓ I'll do my best here to articulate why I and countless others have such a deep love for the band community and for music education more generally. Our band rooms, our choir rooms, our orchestra rooms. All of these give us a space to belong, to connect, and to grow. In these rehearsal spaces, we find purpose, we find community, we find connection, we find opportunities for personal growth and leadership. Creating and performing music for these mediums aims to do so much more than to allow us to hone in on the technical aspects of music making such as rhythm, intonation, tone, ensemble, sound, et cetera. The arts allow us to build bridges, define points of intersection and commonality in a reality that seeks to divide us as much as possible so that a few can plunder from and control the many. There's a lot there, right? And I think that really sets the stage for this beautiful human being that I would love to introduce and that is Omar Thomas. Welcome to our podcast. Welcome to the show. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, it's good to see you all. Yeah, we're thrilled to have you on here and especially the timing of all of this, but there's so much to talk about with you and I've known you for a long time, ⁓ decades now, which is crazy, but a lot of people may know that- you don't look more than a decade old yourself. Well, I told you, I just got off a pacifier three years ago, so I mean, I've evolved quickly. I was gonna bring that up, but maybe another time. We'll talk about the past. Well, too late. We're there, right? When have either of us said, oh, I'll bring that up at a better time, right? That's true. So Omar, a lot of people know the name Omar Thomas, but I don't know if they truly understand your evolution because I think your evolution is one of the most unique of anybody I can think of. And so I would love for you to share a little bit about the path to becoming who you are today. Well, ⁓ wow, where do I begin? That is a big question. ⁓ I mean, basically, as an educator, as a composer, I started off in band in fourth grade, right? And everything that I have and who I am, I owe to public school music education, which has given me a platform, has given me opportunities, ⁓ has given me a voice. ⁓ And it's really reared me in kind of what matters in the world. So starting in fourth grade, know, concert band, Trombone by the way, middle school jazz ensemble became available. So that was the first time that I experienced that. And I just kind of had this moment that has been pinned in my brain since and experiencing the music that was playing in jazz ensemble. versus the music that was played in concert bands and not understanding why they had to be so different. And why the music that we're playing in Jazz Ensemble, had kind of a stronger, deeper cultural connection to than what we're playing in concert band. And I didn't understand why these two ensembles kind of weren't in conversation with each other more. So, kind of kept that in the back of my mind. High school came along, I did all the things that your concert band, your jazz band, marching band, section leader, drum major, sang and choir my senior year of high school. I was pretty omnivorous, consuming everything that I could and decided that I wanted to pay it forward and be a high school band director. So I went to James Madison University, Dukes. I got a bachelor's degree in music education and I minored in jazz studies. I was one of the ⁓ fortunate incoming freshmen to make it into the top jazz ensemble in my first semester and just kind of had my world really opened up by the music with which we engaged by a good friend Chuck Dodis, who's still the director of that ensemble today. And that music really spoke to me and that's kind of what lit the fire in me to write. know, Chuck was kind of on me since he discovered that I enjoyed writing to write something for the Jamie Jazz Ensemble, but I could just see it against the music that we're playing by these masters. Our first concert was always dedicated to the Great American Songbook so that we could understand history and technique and ensemble playing. And then just some of the hippest writers in the jazz scene, we played our Bob Brookmeyers, our Maria Schneiders, our John Hollenbecks, our Chuck Owens. We played music by Chuck himself, J.C. Sanford. And I was like, no way I'm writing something that's going to be programmed against that stuff. And I said no, no, no, until I said yes my junior year of college. And I wrote a piece called Dancing, which ended up being the third track on my first album. And then ⁓ really enjoyed it and was pleased with the reception. And ⁓ my senior year, I wrote a second piece called Gold Shoes, which ended up being the second track on my first album. ⁓ after- a pattern here, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah, don't think you're right. And then after getting the bachelor's degree, I decided to get a master's degree in jazz composition where I went to the New England Conservatory to study with the great writers, Ken Chaphorst and Bob Brookmeyer. And unfortunately, Bob took ill when I got there. I never actually studied with him and eventually he passed away a few years later. Instead, I studied with the wonderful Frank Hallberg, who was a brilliant Finnish composer and and piano player and had just the most wonderful experience. so, know, master's degree is two years. And in my second year, I was thinking about what I would do after this. And at the time I was waiting tables up in Boston at Legal Seafoods and we had a, what do call it? Like a Sunday brunch jazz combo come in and the bass player was my fellow bartender's husband. And he worked on staff at Berkeley College of Music. And I was like, ⁓ you know. getting into Berklee would be wonderful. I'd still be able to teach. It's this world-renowned institution. Maybe I'll start looking for staff positions and maybe after like 10 years, I can kind of sneak my way into the faculty side. So I went on their website and look up the staff positions and out of curiosity, I looked up the faculty positions and there was a full-time opening in the harmony department, which is the theory of jazz and popular song of the 20th century. And I read it it was so perfect that I was like, there's no way I'm 23 years old. They're not going to give this to me. And 24 hours later, I said, I might as well submit the worst they could say is no or nothing at all. Right. And long story short, I ended up getting a call back and ⁓ did my whole interview day. I remember teaching a lesson on modal interchange to a room full of harmony faculty at 23. And I made them sing along to Billy Joel's Just the Way You Are. ⁓ did my whole day and was waiting tables of on of all days. ⁓ Patriots Day, which in Boston, of course, is the Boston Marathon, and my restaurant was three blocks away from the finish line, and I'm at a table, we're swamped, right, just completely slammed. I'm at a table taking an order and my phone rings, and it was my former chair, and I apologize mid-order, and I say, I'm so sorry, I really have to take this call, and I run into the bathroom, and he says, I have good news and bad news. He said, the bad news is you didn't get the job you applied for. The good news is we were so impressed with you that we want to offer you classes anyway. And so that's how I started my, my professor journey at 23. You know, I was 24 by the time I started because my birthday is in May, but I started off, you know, teaching classes at that young age. And, and I've been teaching for the last 18 years ever since. was- that guy, by the way, is the guy still waiting for you to take their order or did- not. Okay. I hope somebody went back and got them. Okay, because I like legal seafood. It's a place. We can talk about the menu later. No, no, keep going. Keep going. menu has changed, I'm sure. hope. ⁓ You know, and so, yeah, 10 years at Berkeley. ⁓ Four of those years while I was still part-time, I was also the teaching fellow for the Jazz Harmony course at Harvard. ⁓ And I became full-time, I believe, in my last three years there and got a phone call one day from... my dear friend Joel Puckett asking me if I wanted to do a visiting professorship at Peabody in the theory department, which was supposed to be a one-year appointment and it ended up being two years. And it was also near the end of my time at Berkeley that I got that phone call from Dr. Gary Schaller at Western Kentucky University asking me to write a piece for them to premiere at that CBDNA regional that year, which was in Charleston, South Carolina, and just months after the horrible shooting at Mother Emanuel Church. he told me that He had gotten my information from John Mackey, passed on this opportunity to me because both he and his spouse, Abby, felt that John wasn't the right person to write a piece that could speak to that experience. And Abby's the one who suggested my name. And long story short, I wrote the piece and it was really well received. there were 24 members of Mother Emanuel Church who sat behind me at that premiere at the Gilead Center in Charleston, which is like one or two blocks over from Mother Emanuel. And that's kind of what started my career in the band world. Well, and we should mention the name of the piece because I think a lot of people would... It's your first piece, right? It's the first one. Yeah, it's called Of Our New Day Begun, which is taken from a stanza of the Black National Anthem, which every voice can sing, facing the rising sun of our new day begun, let us march on till victory is won. First piece. First piece. Just a little bit of light subject. Well, this is why I was so reluctant to do it because I hadn't really, you know, created in that space in any kind of a meaningful way. And so having this be my first one and it's such an important piece on such a huge stage, I was freaked out. But, know, I dug deep and actually knowing that members of the church were going to be in attendance at the premiere kind of helped me understand exactly how it needed to sound. And I knew that it needed to speak to their lived experiences, which is why I chose Lift Every Voice and Sing is a cornerstone melody and it's so heavily infused with ⁓ the blues language and stomping and clapping and tambourine and gospel chord progressions. ⁓ And again, if I can bring it back to that eighth grade self who wasn't understanding why these sounds never made it into the concert band space, this was my first attempt at trying to remedy that. And I did the same thing with... basically every piece that I've done since, know, just trying to build bridges and help these worlds communicate with one another. Cause it seems to be a real blind spot in the concert band world. So I did that. I think while I was at Peabody is when I wrote Come Sunday, ⁓ which was commissioned by Tony Maranello at Illinois State. And then that has just kind of become a life of its own. It's, it's, got to It has just gone on and become its own thing, right? And everybody plays it differently, but man, when they, when they play it the right way, Holy moly, right? And when they don't, holy moly. Still, that's right, still. ⁓ And so yeah, I wrote that, you know, two years at Peabody. was ⁓ one of my reasons that I'm so grateful to my time at Peabody is that it allowed me the space to kind of start to do composer residencies. So that's when I was starting to bounce around to these different institutions and get to meet all of these wonderful students and band directors and communities around the country. ⁓ One of them, of course, was University of Texas at Austin, which is a life-changing institution for all of the reasons, the Butler School of Music. then it ended up, after two years, joining their faculty in the middle of the pandemic. I road tripped from Baltimore to Austin in July of 2020 and taught my entire first year at UT Remote from my downtown apartment. ⁓ You know, that's a great way to kind of... get to know your new space and your new community. yeah, and you know, I've just been trying to create with intention for Wind Ensemble since then and wanted to reconnect to my big band and my big band roots because you know, was missing it. And so that's when I recorded Brio songs. And fun fact, all of those tracks were written between 2008 and 2015. That's how long it took. to finally get back into the studio, which didn't happen until May of 2024. So I just went back and updated all that music and, you know, and I was just so pleased at the reception. International acclaim, countries all over the world. And of course the Image Award nomination, which was huge. So... That's, mean, massive huge, right? I saw the pictures from that and everything and it just, what an incredible acknowledgement. This is not like a... ⁓ the music ed community nominated you for, this is like an international huge thing that is from people way outside of this community, right? Yeah, yeah. And, ⁓ you know, in, all categories. I'm sitting at the ceremony and I'm watching, you know, Michael B. Jordan be approached by everybody. And he was so gracious because he's, he made time for everybody who wanted to speak to him, which was literally everybody. I'm Gianna Taylor and Ryan, Ryan Kugler walked by me and Ludwig Goransson. You know, and it was, you got to watch Viola Davis accept an award and Coleman Domingo. It was really powerful. it, you know, it took me a while to sit in the comfort of being in that space, you know, but realizing that I was chosen to be in that space. And so that meant the world to me, that kind of acknowledgement. It's really, really powerful. There's so many things that I want to talk with you about and, and, and it's hard to kind of pick one to start, but I think Since you've talked about it a few times, I think it's a great place to start. And this is this idea of, okay, you have a music ed background, then you went to Berkeley for jazz composition, and then you made this leap into the symphonic world. And through all of that, you have become extremely well known for your ability to write these powerful pieces. that are inspired by idioms that are traditionally not associated with the symphonic repertoire. Can you just talk about the process of, okay, there's these different things, you know that, you want to fuse them together, but you hadn't done that much symphonic writing. How did you make that leap into symphonic rep and how did you start to figure out who Omar is in all of that in terms of your sound? back it up really quickly. After JMU, I went to NEC for two years and then I joined Correct. Yeah, I left that part out. So that is true. went to NEC. Right. And that's good too. That place is okay well. That's not bad, right? Everything has been trial and error. That's what you do. You sit down, you figure out what is possible, what is kind of directly translatable from one medium to another. and ⁓ you figure out what you kind of have to finagle. But then at the end of the day, you realize that this is music, it's expression. These are instruments and those are instruments. What has been the biggest challenge for me is the vernacular of it all, the pronunciation of it, and just realizing just how finite notation can be in expressing ⁓ musical language that is not from like the ⁓ European Russian tradition. And ⁓ I'm not the only person who's found this. Actually, my students have also been like, well, how do I write this down? Sometimes you just have to resort to writing words because there isn't a symbol that exists that can kind of accurately convey what it is that you want. Or something that I'm really into now is ⁓ creating playlists. Go listen to this. In music education, we're so married to reading and what's on the page. That's extremely important, but there's so much that can't be written down. And, you know, anytime I give a talk, the example that I give is, you know, kind of taking a newspaper article up to like Boston, like Southie, you know, and having one of the Boston locals read that article and then taking that same article down to like New Orleans and having somebody read that article. And at the end of the day, they're reading the same words, but it's going to sound completely different. And the difference is the music and that's what we can't write down. So how else do you get that information? You know, you have to listen. and you have to imitate. That's how we all learned how to speak to begin with. And if we're trying to speak different musical languages, how can you learn that off the plate? can't like, another thing that I've done once as, and I had a really good sport who helped me out with it, but I probably wouldn't do it again is I forget where I was giving a talk, but I asked who in the room speaks, you know, one another language and hands went up and how many people speak three or more languages. But I was already clocking who never raised their hand. And so of course I asked their permission and went up to them and I gave them my phone and on my phone was a paragraph in French. And I asked them if they would read some of it. And of course it sounded exactly how you expected it to. But I said, this is exactly what we do with music. You know, if you can't understand how it sounds, you can't just set down the characters on the page in front of somebody and expect it to be pronounced correctly, especially if it's not coming from a tradition with which you're familiar. You know, I mean, English is the same. at its root in the United States and in the UK, yet it sounds fundamentally different. Like, what is that different? So that's kind of where my biggest challenge is lately. And barring orchestrational questions and how can you use a rhythm section or percussion section in an ensemble in a way that it can kind of capture the spontaneity and energy of a jazz rhythm section. There are those questions, but there are also the deeper cultural questions of how do we pronounce this music correctly? And you see that in the first movement of Come Sunday Testimony, the melody looks really gross. It looks scary on the page, you know, because it looks terrifying on the page. And then you see that it's unison with a bunch of instruments and you're like, say that together. Exactly. You know, it's supposed to be one person's hand and feet, but it's split up between amongst 50 people. and it's, looks like that because it's supposed to be improvisatory. It's not music that was ever read, meant to be written down. And then I've got some articulations that don't make sense through the lens of the traditional ⁓ European Russian classical tradition. But they make sense in the context of this music as much as I can make sense of it given the same palette of articulations that everybody else is using. Your slurs and your staccatos and your tenuil markings. I'm doing the best that I can. But ⁓ there is a real wall that you run into in terms of ⁓ authentic pronunciation. ⁓ And that's kind of where I am now in trying to ⁓ help us wean ourselves off of the page. And I tell students all the time, you don't have to wait to be told what to practice or play by your studio teacher in order to just put your instrument together and play along with music that you love. Music that's on the radio. You'll get so much more information if you just close your eyes and you play along with. play along with all the instruments, play along with the vocals, because there are certain vocal inflections that we can't really write down on the page that a vocalist might do and you'll learn how to pronounce that, you know? Redefine what we've indoctrinated you into believe in quote unquote good sound is, because I don't believe in the term good sound. I believe that there are sounds that are situationally appropriate. And sometimes those sounds are not pretty. It's not a nice round, big sound. Sometimes it's gotta be, it's gotta be a gritty and it's gotta be nasally and it's gotta be tense because that's what the music. requires in that moment. So learn how to manipulate your instrument in that way as well. I remember sitting next to you in a panel and we were talking about, think it was, well, this actually might've been Mother of Revolution, although there are moments in of our new day begun as well where you said something and it has stuck with me forever. And no, no, you said something where you were talking about how imagine what it's like when you get so frustrated that you're. banging your fist against the wall, cause you're so angry. And then imagine what it would be like if you'd been oppressed for so long or so many things that happened to you that you have to throw a brick through a window. ⁓ your music, think certainly reflects that. There are places in your music where obviously it's just, no, this is not a balanced pretty moment. This is... There's no balance in what happened in this moment, right? And I appreciate that about you a lot, that you go there. Yeah, you know, I kind of learned that technique from Gil Evans via Maria Schneider, who was his copyist for many years and learned a lot of his techniques through her work with him. And she would tell a story that Gil would have her score something. and she would think that she'd done a great job and Gilbert would say, no, this is all wrong. I need this to scream. This needs to be in the range of the instrument that screams. The trumpet doesn't scream in that register. And it's really thinking about not just the orchestration, but also thinking about the timbre of one instrument in different registers. If you want something to scream, you're not going to give it to an instrument where it lives in its comfortable register. You're going to make it strain and make it work a little bit. And I think about that, I thought about that with the opening of our new David Gunn, that horn line, that's really low, especially in like the lower two horns. I could have easily given that to the trombone where there's a little bit more control over that register, but I didn't want the control necessarily. I wanted it to sound a little bit, you know, have an extra tension to it. And then to add gravel to that, I added bassoons as well. So it would rumble even more. Just thinking about those types of things. Right. All that is really great and thinking even deeply about the orchestration and the timbre. And a couple of things that have come up so far that I'm picking up is you talking about things like going for it and taking risks. And I think that that comes through not only your music, but all the way that you're discussing all these things. And I think one of the challenges with many music educators, and I'll put myself in that, is that we are tied a lot to the educational aspects of it. what's on the page, what's written there, interpreting what you want through that notation. And I think breaking free of that and getting people to step back and listen and feel it is uncomfortable. And I think for the typical band world. So I'm wondering when you go and you work with an ensemble, do you find it difficult to get them to let go of some of those constraints and to let themselves actually emote and be free without feeling like, they're not being educated or they're not being proper or whatever. It's like, I don't know, do they have trouble getting permission to do that? What do do to unlock that? Sometimes, not always. I also give grace because I'm, I realize I'm working against however many years of indoctrination of this is how it's supposed to go. So telling somebody to go against that training. once or twice after how many years of being told that this is the way to do it, you know, it's going to be uncomfortable for them. So I just kind of get the ball rolling and walk away and I don't always get to see how that turns out in the end, you know, but if anything, I just kind of want to impress upon the directors, I guess, how beneficial it is to the musicianship of the students to be able to converse in these ways beyond just... you know, what they're rehearsing for UIL or what they're getting together for contest, you know. These are skills that are going to take them through ⁓ their musical life to be able to be in conversation, you know. And gosh, there are some pieces that I think about, like my piece, Carabana, right, which is like a concert band celebration of silky and calypso music from the Caribbean, which originated in Trinidad. And it's just so foreign to anything. that has existed in the wind ensemble world. And in a perfect world, whoever, I mean, if there was this much time to ever do this, right? I understand that there are concert cycles and this is how much time we have to work on a piece, but in a perfect world, I feel like rehearsal for that piece would start two months before any music hit the page. And people would listen to, you know, some of the songs that I posted on the playlist on my website. And maybe the directors would take like a rhythm. and just teach it by rote. Get the rhythm section going, have the group stand up and have them kind of do it a little two step left together, right together and just play this rhythm, feel this rhythm, you know, and then to start to pull rhythms out of the piece and teach them to everybody, pull bass lines out, teach them to everybody so that we can start to feel without the engagement of the eyes. We're using our body, it's a very Dalcro's thing, right? Using your entire body kind of internalize the rhythm. And that would start two months before they ever saw any music. Can I ask a question about that though? Because that piece and a couple of your others, obviously after parties, but I mean, you know, with these pieces, there is such an organic understanding of all this. And so I guess my question to you is, are these rhythms that you actually grew up with and you're just, this is just internalized in yourself? I'm assuming you studied them to some degree anyway, to create a playlist. or no? No, I didn't study them. just, I guess in my, from my music, intro to music education teaching days at Berkeley, I think of it as inculturative learning, right? We, or I taught, we taught, the book taught that there are kind of three levels of learning. There's a formal, the non-formal, and the inculturative, right? So the formal is what you do when you go to class every day and you sit down and get that information. Non-formal is kind of like, ⁓ when we get together in the summer, me and my grandpa play guitar together. And then the inculturative is just what you soak in. It's just around you in the ether. And I learned all of that music inculturatively. So I didn't have to really think about it. ⁓ These melodies that exist very much over the bar line, which is something that a lot of my favorite jazz musicians do as well. There's this like strict groove that's happening underneath that locks everything in. And you have this melody that's very not on one and three. And it just floats. and really thinking about getting that overall line without having to like feel the counting in the playing. You know, it's yeah, it's different. It's different, but it's something that I kind of grew up with. So it's natural to me. And I understand the challenge of writing something like that for a 50 person wind ensemble who has never engaged with it. So I'm always grateful when directors, I'm always grateful when they attempt the piece, you know, and especially when they... kind of give it its due diligence in terms of the pedagogy and the education, because I'm asking for a big chunk of their time and their energy. And they don't always have it to give, know, especially at the college level, you're giving a concert every like two to three weeks, you know, it's a different thing. So I'm always grateful ⁓ when anybody attempts that. And I hope that they take the opportunity to present the full pedagogical richness. that goes behind the music. And it's not just, we're gonna rehearse this and put this away, but let's talk about where this come from. Let's talk about these rhythms and give a fuller picture of these people and their contributions to art from this part of the world. feel like that's in my perfect world. That's what we'd be doing with every piece is fleshing out this full human picture, which I also kind of spoke to in that statement that you started to read from Brian. Yeah. ⁓ There's so many things, right? And the time thing, I think about that all the time in the world of jazz where you hear somebody who's able to think outside of those bar lines and you're listening to it. And I know when I'm listening to it, I'm like, man, this sounds so cool. But then me, educated completely within the realms of what we're talking about here, I can't find time. And I'm like, how does the rhythm section know where the time is? And they're all finding it and they're able to hit. the top, the head of the thing and they're fitting the bridge together, but I can't find it. I can't find it. And so it just speaks so powerfully to what you're talking about. For sure, this idea of we're all taught one way, right? And you gotta be taught something, right? I so you gotta learn before you do that. But I guess that brings me to a really, go ahead, Chris. I was just gonna say that the way you're talking about this, I was a... We've done previous podcasts we've talked about. I didn't know how to read music. I could play, but I wasn't a reader. And we talk about how some of the best musicians we know never read music. And you're actually bridging that as well. So you're bridging between the reading world, which is very constrictive, to some of the best, most natural musicians who never read and just feel that music. And just through the ethos, like you said, I just really resonate with that. merging those two worlds together, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I think many of us fall in one single lane. That's my point. Yeah, I mean, I wish I was kind of teaching bands still because I'd like to go and stretch my wings a little bit more with them and implement some of this and get them to get out of their scores some more and to get themselves, students I'm thinking, and myself to let go. Because Brian and I live in a world of editorial, in addition to composing ourselves where we have to try to figure out how do we notate this music. But looking at it, often collaborate with the composers to try to help them interpret what they're saying in their music through that written notation. And sometimes you're right, there's no mark for that. So we're often in that world of arguing in our own heads with how do we get this? I don't know, it's just all of these thoughts colliding. It's a lot to think about, but I think it's inspirational. I think people listening to this, this is kind of your call to like go for it again. Push yourself. out of your normal comfort zone and take some risks with this kind of a thing. One thing I tried to do in my piece, the low down, brown get down, is I tried to create a new articulation. I remember that. Ooh, what is it? It's a full triangle instead of just the marcato. And what that represents is a marcato, but in the jazz world on a quarter note, which is a fat note. is no change in the sound out dot and you cut it off with the tongue. But getting like... deeply classical trained musicians to cut a note off with the tongue. ⁓ yeah. It's like, cause they're told that that's wrong. Yeah, you can't do that. It's resonate. It's gotta lift, you know? So going against that training, it's a comfort level thing. You know, don't begrudge them that at all. You know, it's a different way of speaking. It's a vernacular. And so, you know, that's just kind of one of the ways that I've tried to tackle this. But you know, what you said is just so spot on. It's not one or the other. And I'm not... advocating for the dissolution of anything. I'm advocating for the expansion of it. ⁓ We've got to be communicative with our world as it is now, and it's a much smaller world due to our connectivity. So we've got to find ways to be able to speak with everybody. And I'll tell you, one of my favorite moments pedagogically in undergrad was watching Chuck Dodis, the director of jazz at JMU teach The wind ensemble of peace, Dukes. Every time I say JMU, we gotta like, you know. Go Dukes. I didn't go to JMU. I fitted J Dukes. We don't hold it against you. I judged the Marching Man show there once. Where was that Chris? I'm not gonna say where. ⁓ come on man. JMU, go Dukes. Yeah, he taught a wind ensemble of peace by ear. And they performed it with no written music. And he got his trumpet out and said, here's your line. oboes and flutes and here's your starting pitch. And it was a piece based on the West African folk song. it was written in hawkets and it was groove based. And of course to have groove, you need to have repetition. So we can just kind of craft the shape of the arrangement based on, you know, when we wanted to add some thickness or thin out the texture. And the musicians just ate it up because it was just such a different way of learning how to make a piece. And the result was beautiful. It was beautiful. I think the way you introduce it makes it Like you're coming across, if you were in my classroom, like you're very inclusive, like not defensive. I would welcome anything that you say to try. And I think that's what people have to do is have this open mind. think when you're coming across with that, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm trying to expand your horizons. Come on this ride with me. Let's do this together. That whole environment, the inclusive environment, we're all in this together kind of a spirit. I think there's a lot of defensiveness in our world. Cause there's a lot of. We're often in a position we have to protect our programs. We have to protect the kids. We have to keep them insulated. And what you're encouraging is to open the doors in a time when we're often forced to close the doors. And I think that's something that comes through your spirit and hearing you speak about all of this. And I think it can encourage other people to do this for each other. Let's all kind of encourage one another to take some of these risks and to try different things and expand our eyes, ears, and horizons. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I don't want to come across Pollyannish at all. I understand that there are this many hours in a day and we have this much rehearsal time and there is this expectation that is put on us by our, you know, administration and our quote unquote superiors or higher ups who expect that we perform at this level by doing this thing, you know? And so that's hard to navigate when we've all got the same 24 hours and there's so much that we wanna do. So I fully acknowledge that and I speak about this stuff as if it's the easiest thing to implement when no two programs schedules look exactly the same. ⁓ But I think it's really important to acknowledge that like none of us know everything, we're all learning until we're in the ground. And that's okay, that's a beautiful thing. I find that to be a beautiful thing. let's, from an educator standpoint, let's model what it means to be a lifelong learner. So that our students are not carrying around this fear about trying something new because they actually have seen you navigate in all of its messiness and all of humanity. And they say, okay, I don't have to get this right the first time and that's all right. And so if we approach this with a level of humility, ⁓ regarding our understanding or our lack of understanding or how we go about finding the information. I think that this is one of these ⁓ educational hallmarks that we can give our students beyond tone and articulation and that. But teaching, again, to the bigger person, the skills that will take them beyond the festival performance. I think that speaks to something that I was gonna ask you anyway, which is you're talking about this idea of lifelong learners and constantly moving forward and And having known you as long as I have, and I think a lot of people that have followed your career, ⁓ I would argue that your musical, your artistic, and even your personal evolution has been nothing short of completely remarkable, right? Some people evolve and it's like, ⁓ I'm now writing harder music, or I learned to write easier music, or, look, I've learned a little bit more. But your evolution, your... your presence, your physical evolution, your emotional evolution, your musical evolution, like all of those things. ⁓ I think I would, you could say that you've even, I don't know whether I would say you've redefined yourself multiple times or whether you've just honed in on who you actually are, right? ⁓ But you've done this in a world where I think a lot of times people are just trying to produce the same thing over and over again. That was a hit. I want to keep doing that. this work with this band or this work with this orchestra, I'm going to keep doing that. And then here we have somebody like you who is completely on this different trajectory. And I would love for you as best as possible to kind of describe what has driven that evolution, what sparked it and what motivates you to keep going. Yeah. Thank, first of all, thank you for all of that. The most simple answer is curiosity. And I try to tell students when I'm talking to them, either one-on-one or in a forum, that curiosity is going to be your greatest teacher. You just have to be hungry for it. And I just recognize how much I don't know and how much I want to know and how much I want to be able to do in listening to my colleagues work. And I'm just like, that is so cool. Where are they coming from? How can I tap into that? And also just finding time to make space to just kind of cocoon. You know, I think it's, it's really important. This is part of why I am ⁓ making this big life transition that we have. was another question. let's just get, let's dive in. ⁓ You know, in a couple of weeks, I'll be moving to Paris indefinitely. And I've, I've just finished my last ⁓ official duty for UT Austin on Tuesday. And so now I'm just here ⁓ trying to pack and make all of these massive. ⁓ arrangements to move my life 5,000 miles away. But what I'm planning on doing first and foremost is I'm planning on cocooning and making space for myself that I have not been able to create when I was a full-time professor, clinician, guest speaker, commissions, all of those things, trying to be an adult and do laundry at the same time. I want to know what it's like to have time in my day to just focus on the mountain of scores that I've bought over the years that I've never really had time to sit down and crack and to just get better at my craft. It's all based on just curiosity and knowing that there is more that I want to explore. And the only way that I would be able to do that is by making space, you know, in my life and I guess physical space as well. know, Paris has been, ⁓ I fell in love with it since the first time I set foot in it, which was back in March of 2015. And I did everything I could in that moment. decided I wanted to try to be back here as much as possible. And so I think the following year or two, I applied for and got accepted to an artist residency, ⁓ a two month thing at the C-10 International des Arts. And I had this tiny little atelier, this little studio with a single bed and a linoleum floor and like a little kitchenette and these three French windows. right? And they opened up onto the sand. And I'd go, I'd look that way and the Notre Dame would be right there. And this is before the fire. And so I was there to create, but I was out in those streets every day. didn't do a lick of anything artistic. was just, I was just in there absorbing, you know, I didn't speak a word of the language at the time. I knew like five words and yet I was just so full and I was so joyful to be there. And I spent the next you know, 10 years, just trying to get back there as often as possible. I've spent every summer there since about 2018-ish, barring the pandemic year. And, you know, last year, last summer I was there for seven weeks. In about week four or five, I decided that I was tired of being a tourist. That I was ready to just call this home and to feed and to harness all of the energy that I got from that city. So, yeah. the way this is, this is extreme, right? Like not everybody who is trying to evolve and find themselves can maybe just, you know, leave everything behind and, know, move to a different continent. But, that's what I feel called to do. And, ⁓ and I'm really driven by, ⁓ joy and curiosity and discovery, which I think are hallmarks for, for how you create a meaningful and impactful art. And I tell students that you have to keep those things at the center of your artistic creation because once the spotlight is on you and it gets a little hot, ⁓ it becomes harder to do things out of joy and curiosity. The pressure becomes ratcheted up and you feel these eyes on you and maybe you are a little bit more reticent to take the risks because you don't want to fail in a public way, you know? And so there's still a lot for me to discover and that's what I'm going to do. And it's just all driven by ⁓ joy and self discovery. What a freaking beautiful way to describe it because there is even things in there that I've had trouble putting my finger on, but this idea of yeah, this mounting pressure, this expectation. I always talk about the commission when when everybody says they want you to write a piece, whether they flat out say it or not, the idea is like, ⁓ man, I love everything you've ever written and I love all this stuff and it's just so passionate and so I can't wait for you to do that for me too. And just a constant thing. I'm so excited for you. Before you go on, just this idea of writing a piece of music for yourself that's not commissioned. ⁓ I feel like some of my biggest creative stuff spurts happened when I was just writing for my big band. Cause I was like, ⁓ we can, you know, I was teaching at Berkeley. All I had to do was, was reserve ⁓ a venue and put the band together. And I'm like, ⁓ I'm this new tune for this concert. That was, I had so much freedom. And the funny thing is the pieces that came out of that, that moment in time are the pieces that are on the most recent record griot songs. have so with you, I am so with you because I had, I actually do, it was a period of time where I was so overwhelmed and I just canceled, I didn't cancel. but I stopped taking commissions for over a year because I was so overwhelmed. I know a lot of people, again, this speaks to what you're just saying. A lot of people are like, well, look at this. I'm booked out for two or three years, which is great because, I can pay the rent. I can do all these things. But then I started looking at this going like for the next two or three years, I can't breathe. Like it's just constant. And so I took this break and then I started just. ⁓ one month, I like, you know what, I wanna write something. And it was some of the best music I had written in years, I felt like. So I get it. So Omar, let's talk about this situation a little bit. I think it's time to kind of get into that. I love your background. I would love to talk to you all day. Hopefully someday I could actually do that. But in case people don't know, there's a situation with one of your pieces that's being questioned and potentially removed from a concert performance because a board of education in Wisconsin finds the subject. of the piece or actually just the dedication to be too controversial. This has definitely brought a lot of support to you, your music, your message, and the community. And you did have that thoughtful commentary and reaction on social media that Brian was reading from. But we wanted to allow you to actually have a little bit of space here to address the situation with our audience and kind of just have a little dialogue around it. Can you maybe just, for anybody that may not be aware of it, maybe just give a little bit of a background of the piece and the controversy and then some of your feelings about it that you'd like to share? Sure. So the name of the piece is A Mother of a Revolution. And it was commissioned by the Desert Winds, which is a pride band. In 2019, I believe they're out of Nevada and Vegas specifically, I think. And this was for the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots, which is moralized and celebrated every year via pride celebrations. And I think at first I was asked to write a piece about Harvey Milk. very important politician out of San Francisco who, you know, I love Harvey. Last time I was in the San Francisco airport, there was this giant wall dedicated to the timeline of his life. And you go to the Castro street and the old ⁓ photography store that became his headquarters. They painted a mural of him in the window and he's got this incredible biography. And of course the award winning movie, ⁓ Milk. which starred Sean Penn, and I want to say an Oscar-winning performance. He was at least nominated if he didn't win. And, you know, all of that is great and important, and it all took place in San Francisco, and the Stonewall riots happened in New York. So was like, let's localize this and let's focus on the people who are the ones who finally fought back. Now, what were they fighting back against? At the Stonewall Inn at the time, that was a thriving gay bar. They would be subject to random police raids where the police would come in and just start beating the hell out of everybody. Just to prove a point, to make an example, know, people, adults just hanging out, finding safety and community and connection. And they would just come in and be subjected to these brutal raids. And then one day they had enough of just getting the crap kicked out of them and they fought back. And it spilled out into the streets and there was a... ⁓ ⁓ a black trans woman by the name of Marsha Johnson, who's credited with picking up a bit of brick and throwing it through the glass of the Stonewall Inn, which just kind of set everything alight. ⁓ And so it's a piece that's about like ⁓ strength ⁓ and it's about ⁓ showing up proudly as who you are. And when I decided to write this piece about the trans community who were on the front lines of these beatings because they were thought to be easy targets. And I decided to write a piece about Marsha P. Johnson. I knew that I didn't want to do anything Elegiac because, you know, the trans community is of the most targeted in our society. ⁓ And, you know, and they just have the highest mortality rates and their murders tend to go unsolved, which is also the case with Marsha P. Johnson. Her murder is still unsolved. ⁓ I said a community- And she was a black trans person on top of that, right? so it's just like, ugh. Right. Right, and that is the marginalized of the marginalized there. ⁓ And yeah, I didn't want to write anything elegiac because when I look at that community, I don't feel sorrow. I am inspired by the strength and the bravery that it takes to show up as yourself every day, knowing that stepping out on the street could be your last for simply existing in your skin. And this is a truth that most of us don't have to contend with. And there are so many trans people in my life who I love dearly and... have shared laughs and meals and drinks and conversation with in just the most ⁓ beautiful and proud and brave community. And so I wanted to reflect that by writing a superhero theme. so the first half of the piece is designed to sound like the intro of a Marvel movie. And then the second half kind of takes that theme and puts it over a disco. And my reason for doing that is because I was thinking about two things. I was thinking about the importance of clubs and dance spaces to queer safety, queer community, queer liberation, ⁓ and like community organizing, planning, know, finding ways to keep each other safe and to take care of one another. All of that happened in these dance spaces. And I also thought about ⁓ the former zeitgeist of superhero television shows from the seventies and how all of their theme songs were rooted in the music of the day, which were disco and funk. So if you think about the old like Wonder Woman theme, where the million dollar man, six million dollar man or the Hulk, you know, all of those kind of had that kind of funk disco thing. And so that's why the second half of the piece does that. And so it's really just a piece. First of all, it's really fun to play. It's got some challenging things in it, obviously. Yeah, right. And like the entire horn part. Yeah. It was above the staff a lot. Listen, if you're going to write superhero music and you've ever heard like the horns are front and center and there's like 12 of them in the soundstage, right? So. and yeah, and so I just wanted to create something that was, ⁓ educational musically that spoke to a moment in history and a people who are often not just overlooked and marginalized, but scapegoated because it's very easy to take a community that appears so different from the mainstream and say everything that's wrong with us is because of these people. and, ⁓ yeah. And I just wanted to make a powerful statement that made people. and to let them know that not only are they wanted here, not only do they deserve to live self-actualized full lives, but ⁓ that they are strong. They are so much stronger than the people who seek to silence them, you know? ⁓ And so that's why I wrote the piece. And I've received over the years so many messages, both face-to-face in rehearsals or just in... ⁓ Instagram DMs or email or whatever telling me how much that piece has meant to them as a trans person, as a trans musician, as the parent of a trans child. So everything about this work is I see as a net positive. Right, also to be important for the allies as well, right? Also for the allies that are in these spaces, that we're all there together. And that's what you mentioned about music education, right? Creating these spaces. Here we are at this situation. I mean, let's talk about it, right? Let's talk about what's going on because here we have a group and suddenly a board is saying, well, no. And so do you wanna talk about that for a minute? Well, from what I understand, those people, even though their power is outsized, they're in the minority. I often wonder- 100%. Yeah. I often wonder if you can just sit there and keep hitting them with why questions. Eventually it will- it will slam into a wall. It will end up just being just because. And it will be something bigoted. You know, like, you don't want this piece to be performed why. Because it will harm our kids why. Because why. Why? And then eventually the logic of it will play out and it will end up being just a complete like fear-based logical fallacy. Whereas I can say, well, let me tell you all the reasons that we should play this and then say everything that we just spoke about. how it enriches people's lives, how it brings people together, how it's fun. It's a good time in the concert hall, how it makes people feel safe, ⁓ how it makes people feel seen, how it opens us up to the complexity of the human experience, how we can find commonality in one another. And guess what? I guess when you weigh that, those reasons went out. But that's the thing about ⁓ fear and prejudice is that it's often rooted in things illogical. And we create- Well, I there was a very clear answer. be all fair, it was a very clear answer to that why question, right? It was a committee member with the Christina DeGrave who said, oh, this subject should be taught in history class. When it comes to music, it should be uplifting and celebratory. So the fun, the thing that I think about is it was in history class, they would have come for it there too. Oh, 100%. That's the same. Yeah, exactly. I never heard somebody say, oh, you're doing cross-curricular stuff. Sure. And to that second point, it's like, so you're telling me you've never seen like a sad movie? You've never read sad book? You're telling me that art should all be uplifting? That's really antithetical to the full breadth of the human experience. That's not why art exists. But actually, it helps people process. know, so house of cards. But if any of these people listen to the music or actually heard dialogue about the subject... It actually is, you should go back to Christina DeGrave and say, it is uplifting and celebratory. It's literally uplifting. It's just literal fist pumping. What you just described is all the things that people should be discussing. I think the people who screamed the loudest against it have never had the conversation. And that's part of Or they never heard the piece. Or definitely never heard the piece because it's clearly uplifting and celebratory. It's a superhero theme. It's powerful. It's enlightening. And the context makes it even more strong. So the communication of it, we talk about humanity and what our society is looking for is having a discovery in humanity and connection. Pushing the conversation away does the opposite of building our humanity and recognizing how alike we are even in our differences. Right now everything is, you're different. there's division everywhere. And somebody said, we're more alike than we are different. That doesn't happen. Why aren't we celebrating that? Why aren't we finding those commonalities or having the conversation? Because I know that people that I don't agree with my points of view on certain things. When we actually talk about topics such as this, we actually often do agree more than we disagree. But most of the time you don't get to that point of having the conversation. And I feel like that's the situation here. Somebody's reacting and then negativity spreads just as quickly as positivity can. and I feel like we should push the positivity. But I think Christina, we should send her a recording and she should get a score and maybe listen to this podcast and maybe understand what this is actually about and what people can actually learn through music, which is about uniting and not dividing. Sure. If we send a score, let's rewrite the horn parts though, because otherwise she's going to say it's- She might question it. Questioning for the physicality of the horn want to fingering for the high B. Yeah, right. And I think Omar, the one thing that you do in this piece, not the one thing, right? One of the things that you do in this piece and so much of your music, which you've said, you're, you are trying to create this inclusive, accepting world for everyone, right? Culturally, socially, everything. And it seemed to be such a huge part of what you do and maybe where we leave this, but I think it's really important that What do you tell the music educators out there right now? Like all these conductors, the young composers, everybody that's out there, in terms of what their mission should be, what are we on this planet to be doing? Like what are we trying to do? What do you have to say to all those people? Wow. You know, I was just thinking, well, obviously I've been thinking about this nonstop since it all kind of came spilling out, but I was thinking about You know, we're all, we all just kind of want the same things. know, humanity is complex, but it's also just so painfully simple. You know, we all want to be seen, we all want to be safe, we all want to be heard, we all want to be valued, and we all want to like take care of ourselves and our loved ones and live the most actualized version of this approximately 80 years that we get. And we just all happen to be here at the same time. You know, this is our moment in a vast, incomprehensible timeline that we are all occupying this miraculous blue ball of rock and water at the same time. You know, and, and we should really be taking that time to understand one another, to take the torch from all the people who have come before us in all of its beauty and all of its horrors and understanding that so that we can make our experience better collectively to then pass it on and to lead ourselves to a ⁓ brighter, more inclusive, ⁓ more unified trajectory as part of our human stories, which is passing the torch from day to day, week to week, generation to generation. And I feel like the arts in particular are such a unique way and a special way and a powerful way to highlight ⁓ those moments. ⁓ of intersectionality that we all share. ⁓ It allows us to ⁓ kind of find our moments, right? Where we're all just here trying to do the same thing. I sound like a broken record because in my mind it's just, it's the most simple thing in the world. Like why are we complicating this? Why are we complicating this? But to speak to your question as directors, I think that ⁓ we're programming intentionally. We're trying to find pieces that reflect stories that fill in this vast puzzle of who it is that we all are. We're not just programming fast, slow fast, but we're actually programming with educational and pedagogical intent to kind of every piece should reveal something about ourselves to one another, you know, based on who we are, what we've been through, how we exist, ⁓ what it is that we're working together collectively. and ⁓ presenting that to the students so they can internalize that, see what it means for themselves in the context of who they are as artists and as musicians, in the context of what it means for how they connect with these musicians who are trying to tell a similar story. And then you get on that stage and you radiate that outwards. Here's what we learned about this piece of music. Here's what we learned about each other. Here's what we learned about our human story through this piece of music. So come with us on this journey and learn about ourselves with us. I know I'm speechless. Yeah, I know we're in there, is it like, and try to get a one in the process. Like, you don't say anything about that, right? You're not talking about any of that. You're just, you're talking about the story. And I think it's so easy to get even caught up in those things. And it's just, it's a beautiful. I mean, we could quote that right there and just put that broadcast that out to the world. should be so simple and that's why it's so complex. Yeah. Yeah. But you have a simple kind of way. Yeah. But you encapsulated it all. I, I, this has been a really amazing time learning from you, about you. And I think anybody that spends the time and listens to this podcast and anything else is going to understand a lot more, not just about you, but about music and about our our world of music and what it actually means to all of us. And that word interconnectivity, that whole concept that we're all intersecting and we do all intersect in so many positive ways. And maybe it's time people focus on the positive intersections and not so much the negative dissections. Well, there's a concerted effort to mask our connectivity and to highlight the areas that we're different. Cause it's easier to divide people if they... if they believe that they don't have anything in common with anybody else around them. And it's just like, you see this on a class level. It's like you have a lot more in common with that person who's at the grocery store looking at that price tag next to you than you do with these like multi-billionaires who are the reason that nobody can afford anything. like, you don't have to carry water for them. They are the problem. know? Like find your community and you know, together we are strong. ⁓ Again, it's just one of those things that's really simple and obvious, but we're pushing back against a lot of, ⁓ there's been an unfathomable amount of money and resources that have been poured into keeping us factioned off, you know? And that's a hard thing to kind of undo. There's also like a lot of societal pressures, community pressure to kind of like move in your tribe. And if you're in your tribe, here's a checklist of all the things that we believe. about ourselves and all these other people. And you have to check all of those too, or else you are now an outcast. And I think it's worth saying that one of the most important features of humanity is that we are wired for human connection. As much as we like to joke about being misanthropic and staying in our house for three days, we are wired for human connection. So the thought of losing your community, be it a small town church community or a school community that's actually... a fate worse than death for a lot of people, which is why it's been ruled that, you know. Solitary confinement. that's actually torture. It's torture because that's just not how human beings are wired to be. People are afraid of losing that community and they'll stay plugged into, even if they don't agree with it, they'll go along with it because community is everything and what do you have when you walk away from community? So I think that there are a lot of things that we kind of have to navigate on our way to revealing ⁓ the beauty, first of all, commonality, but the beauty of all of these different aspects of us and all of the ways that they actually intersect and show that we're here wanting those same things for our approximately 80 years here. We had Annie Ray on, ⁓ she was the Grammy music ⁓ educator of the year ⁓ two years ago and she has this parent orchestra. And ⁓ one of the things that she said she loves so much about it was that you have all these parents from all over that come and do this. And whether you are on food stamps or whether you are in Congress, it's just as hard to learn to play pizzicato for quarter notes and learn to count it. And that's like the great equalizer. And suddenly everybody realizes how much we have in common. So it's ⁓ all a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we can all certainly. keep in mind as we move forward, but let's be kind to each other. Let's learn from each other. No matter who we are, we all have something to teach each other. Teachers to students, students to teachers, students to students, composers, all of us. And Omar, you're a beautiful human. We are thrilled to have had this time with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I'm glad we could finally make this happen. Same here. Yeah. Want to get in touch with us? Email us at takenotesatmakemusic.com. Take Notes is sponsored by Alfred Music and Make Music. Our executive producer is Mary Ann White. Our theme music was written by Brian Balmages and produced by Fred Flowerday. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. See you next time.