Cheryl Floyd: Unlocking Musicality, The Power of Rote, and "Show Me Your Dirty Laundry"

Speaker 2: Sal, cal. Welcome to Take Notes, a music education podcast where we discuss all things music with a series of special guests. I'm Brian.
Speaker 3: And I'm Chris. Together we share stories, inspirational ideas, practical advice, and have a lot of fun in the process.
Speaker 2: Thanks joining in.
Speaker 3: All right, so Brian, we're coming up to the end of the school year for many of our listeners. So I thought it would be kinda countdown burden. It is wait, ⁓ stop copyright clearance has not been secured for that.
Speaker 2: Fine. It's not the final
Speaker 3: It's not now we're safe. It is no longer that. But anyway, but thinking about the end of the year coming up for a lot of our listeners and just kind of thinking that it's always a challenging time of year for some people, but for me and my teaching career, it was always an awesome time of year. It was one of my favorite times of year, actually, after that spring concert until the time the kids are released for their summer break. So I thought we would maybe chat about that a little bit and think about how teachers can recharge over the summer, maybe share a couple strategies of keeping their students engaged all the way till the last day. And I don't know, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2: No, I love the idea of the whole thing. In some ways I think it's sort of a a parallel to ⁓ in my world, the the ⁓ when you're working with an honor group, right? No, both of our worlds, but and then you're kind of like in that last moment before the concert and it's like, okay, how do we keep these kids engaged or how do we keep them engaged at the end of the day? ⁓ when they're all kind of ready to play the concert or something like that. So I think there's a couple of direct parallels in there. ⁓ I agree with you. I think the end of the year can be something that can be an incredible time of growth and community, or it can just be a couple of days that are wasted.
Speaker 3: Right. Well, I think that's where people get challenged with it is what am I going to do with all these kids? The concert is over, so mentally they think they check out. And I think it's a lot of what the teacher perception of that is. And I always try to maintain a really positive part of that mindset that the concerts that just because the concert is ends on a certain day, it doesn't mean that we're done learning. The learning continues to go on. So for me It was all how we frame things. I think a lot of what we do either educationally or even with our day-to-day in our current jobs now, we have to frame challenges in a different way. So I'll give you an example. I would get the kids really excited at the end of the year after the concert because they knew after a little bit of a couple of years of it, that it was going to be a time where they're going to play a ton of new music. We would do a ton of sight reading. So that would be a lot of fun where I was like, You know what, maybe we won't play the whole suite in the concert this year. But you know what? After the concert, I'm gonna pass out the whole suite. And I would also do things like doing doing best of days. And I would have d each of the different classes. I usually start with the seniors and let the seniors pick their favorite pieces over their four years in the program and we would play those again. And then I would also cycle through the other grade levels as well. All right, juniors are gonna do this. It's gonna be a junior's best of week. So there's a lot of creative ways that you can keep the kids playing music, both new music and some of their favorites. Cause that's one of the weird things with honor band or even with our regular concert band cycles and orchestra cycles, when they it's kind of similar to the way that I think about practicing. Kids often play things wrong over and over and over again. Then they get it right one time and then they move on to something else. Where
Speaker 2: And of course they've gotten really good at playing it wrong because they've been practicing it that way and so they get awesome at that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's relate that to a concert. We've practiced a lot of things wrong, let's say, and that we've worked really hard together to get it to be correct. And when we perform it once. So they actually only get to feel that and I'm not I am taking away the idea that we practice and we perform every single day in class. I think we both believe in that philosophy. Every time we perform Yeah, we've talked about that. Every time you're making a sound on your instrument, it's a performance. But my point is that special night when we're sharing this music with the audience, that is something special. And they don't often get to recreate that. So by doing these best of concerts, basically for each other with that daily performance, they get to relive that nostalgia of it. And I feel like it reinforces you've mentioned the word community, which I actually didn't think of before, but it does reestablish that sense of community with their peers and reliving their memories, talking about that concert or whatever, even if something silly happened in the concert when, you know, the director threw their behind by accident or somebody dropped a stick or a mute. But right. That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Accident in quotes.
Speaker 3: But that's just
Speaker 2: Just happened to hit the percussionist who was one measure off the whole time, right? But just by chance.
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that video of the the kid that was playing bass drum and like the big moment he gets and really gets prepared and then wham, whacks the bass drum and then the stick the mallet goes flying across to the holst, right? I don't know if it was it holst, I don't know.
Speaker 2: It was ⁓ it was. It was ⁓ bum bum bum bum phew since I'm doing pieces that I can't do yet. Well I think that one's okay. I can do that one. Just not the Yeah, that one's sorry. Yeah. ⁓ no, I've seen that. ⁓ I I've I John Mackey always talks about his super ball ⁓ mallet that went flying across the stage. I mean, really, I think the key to being viral is just to have something fall off of a stick and fly in a video.
Speaker 3: Okay. ⁓ right. What another another one of my favorites. And this one I think is my favorite because of the kids' reaction. I don't know if you've seen this one. It was a performance of the national anthem and it was on the cymbal player. And I think one of the cymbal straps just completely like broke off and the symbol goes down and the kid was there. But d I think his reaction was just priceless. It was like very wholesome and I think that's why everybody they loved that because not because of the accidental mishap, but the reac the honest and genuine reaction to it. So not so
Speaker 2: Use those strategy use those strategies at the end of the school year and you're gonna have a great year. Okay. Bye.
Speaker 3: I whack the bass drum and have the malico flying across. But anyway, that bringing that back, thank you for that, is that sense of community and reliving some of those joyful moments, hopefully not tragic moments, but those are those are some things. I always loved sight reading days. Again, I use those to stretch the kids, to play something that I know they're not gonna be able to do this in the concert, but you know what? We should play this. Or the opposite. We're gonna play something really easy and we're gonna today's objective is to play something concert ready the second time we play it. Yeah, putting challenges out there and having a different
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love actually combining the two together, right? I actually love the idea of picking something that is not going to sound fantastic the first time, but say, all right, we are in honors ensemble mode, right? Orchestra band or whatever. We have forty-five minutes to get this as close to concert ready as possible. I'm gonna record it at the end and then we're gonna be able to l go back and listen to it or or whatever it might be. But I think that that idea of recording it too. Yeah. And even saying, you know, hey, we're gonna record it and then maybe at our final assembly we'll play it for the parents or or something to motivate these kids and and give them this this ⁓ almost a challenge, right? I think it's really exciting and it's something that you can do ⁓ multiple times and on multiple levels.
Speaker 3: I agree with that. I think it's the the challenge aspect of it, it's almost like a live gamification part of it. Kids love those kinds of things. And it's not like a a competition type of a thing. It's just kind of getting it to sit up a little more straight and pay a little bit more attention and really work a lot. Kids love that kind of thing. And if you do that, it could completely elevate the ensemble as they even look forward to next year. It could be something in in the back to school time. Hey guys, remember in the spring when we did this piece? Maybe you should test out some literature that you're thinking about for next year. So I mean there's all kinds of ways Teachers are super creative people. And I think that just giving the idea of play more music, play your old music, play new music, play harder music, play easy music, make it a challenge. I think that teachers out there will come up with variations on this theme that can be really impactful. Actually, it'd be great if some of them would share those ideas with us. What did you wind up doing? So what if you were y listening to this podcast right now, all tens of you listening to this, if you come up using
Speaker 2: I do it's I think we're up to twenties now. Yeah. All twenties of you.
Speaker 3: All twenties of you out if you use one of these strategies, send us an email and let us know how you use it and what worked well with your students and then maybe we'll share that.
Speaker 2: All twenties of all twenty.
Speaker 3: Well, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm really striking out here. I love all of those I I love all those ideas and and I love thinking about creative ways to really energize the end of the school year, right? Even up to the last day. And ⁓ I know like I've heard from a lot of folks that are in ⁓ even in something like Make Music Cloud or in Foundations, right? And they're using that.
Speaker 3: You are.
Speaker 2: To say, hey, now's a great time of year to work on range builders or we're gonna work on articulation builders more, or we're gonna really work on flow studies or work on some new techniques or new notes or whatever it may be and try to engage the kids. Because the other thing I love is can we leave kids at a place where when they're done, they're absolutely not done, right? I think our goal, I mean, could you imagine how excited teachers would be if when the last day of school happened, their kids were in a mental space where they wanted to go home and play more. And like, ⁓ that was really cool. I want to do more of that. I wanna do that versus saying, ⁓ school is over. Let me put ⁓ let me put my ⁓ my horn in the case. Right. You know, and and then just see what happens ⁓ forever long ago. It's a lot of people I think I almost have told you this story, but I ⁓ I so I I obviously we've talked about how I'm a trouble player, but I don't play that much anymore. But I still for years, for decades actually, played Easter every year in Florida. And and so my horn would come out in late December, early January. Okay. I do not if you are a kid listening to this, you will fast forward past this. You will not listen to this. This is a bad thing. Do not do it, because when I was your age, I practiced more than I could speak. So that's what you have to do. Now fast forward for a little bit. For everybody else listening.
Speaker 3: Speak a lot.
Speaker 2: ⁓ and so yeah, I would I would get the horn out and by the time Easter rolled around, I was I was playing pretty well. Now I my my endurance is what really was a challenge at that point. Right. ⁓ and probably I would have about an hour and a half of endurance, but it was Easter, so I didn't need that much. Right. ⁓ but my efficiency was through the roof because I had l had to learn how to keep doing this. Anyway, what's my point? I don't know. That's no my point was about putting the horn away. And so ⁓ I I remember one time ⁓ I got a call from one of the ⁓ people at the church that I played at, and they they just led with, You must be rich. And I like started laughing, right? And I was like, Okay. ⁓ how's that? Right. ⁓ and I think I told you on this thing that my son's ⁓ friends all told me I was rich. Didn't I tell you that when they ⁓ they said they had Googled me and my net worth 17 million dollars and blah blah blah. Okay. So so maybe they got wind of all that, right? ⁓ but anyway so they apparently I'd never cashed my check from Easter. And so they was like, Well, we're gonna see if we can figure it all out. Okay. ⁓ and so anyway, time came for me to get ready, and so I opened up my case to get ready, and there was my check from Easter. So I thought to myself, like, man, it really does pay to practice. Like it literally pays to practice. ⁓ and so I don't remember if we were able to get that to go through or not, or whether they had to reissue the check, but the point is I made money by picking up my instrument off season. So pick hopefully the kids have started listening again now and skipped all the rest of that part. So we leave them in a place where they want to play more and do more of those things. Right.
Speaker 3: But that's Yeah. I mean listen, the reality is kids are gonna probably take a break, but if we can if we can get the right things in their mind, whether it's fundamentals or getting them just continue to be excited about music, they may revisit it if over the summer. And I think that's kind of one of the goals. And one of the other goals in the summer is teachers kind of recharging their own batteries. And one of the ways I always really liked being able to do that was with a clear mind. And the way that I would achieve that would be to do as much at the school to set up the next year as possible. So I would like if it was time to reorganize the library or whatever big task that I didn't really want to get do in the fall, inventory of course, you have to do that kind of thing. Setting up what a what do I think we're going to play in the concerts next year, outlining either all the concerts or some of the first half of the year or whatever, putting those orders in, getting some of the class lists together and getting things all organized so that when I ca when I do leave for that break, you can actually take a break. And that's think one of the things that I think is really challenging for teachers is disconnecting. We talk about that often too. It's disconnecting, putting the phone away or actually separating. Teaching is an emotional job. And it's not the kind of thing where we can just shut it off and leave the school baggage at school. There's always something there that draws you back to it, whether it's students or whether it's things that you have to get done, or you're just sense of you want to be prepared. So you want to set up the s the school for year for success. I always found that if I left that last day of school and things are in really good shape with all that bureaucratic stuff and with the way that the room looks and the way my office looked, I could actually take a breath for at least a couple of weeks before I could start thinking about going into that. So I think whatever you do out there, if you can spend some time to just set yourself up for the fall success before you leave the building, I think you'll be you'll pay it it'll pay off in dividends. It might not pay off as much as not practicing. and going to an Easter service, but it will pay off mentally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and just to be clear, it it paid off not going to the Easter service. It paid off in my basement, right? ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ I love that. I also really think it it's a great opportunity and and I say this with the idea that we absolutely need to be able to step away for a little bit, right? ⁓ but I also think the summer is a great opportunity. There are some wonderful summer conventions that happen. ⁓ a lot of states have ⁓ summer conventions, whether it's an orchestra c convention, ⁓ band, or ⁓ conducting. And I know so many people that have gone to conducting seminars that just feel like their whole world got just rocked in such a great way. And there was so much fuel added to that, right? And so I think it's important that we recognize that you can recharge at Conference, right? It shouldn't be everything that you do, but if you take three or four days out of your summer and you go to a conference where you're with like-minded people and you're learning from icons and these visionaries in the field, boy, what an incredible opportunity for that. What an incredible opportunity to have a pe a piece programmed. Hey, I've got one stretch piece programmed and I am so excited about it that, you know, once a week, I'm gonna bring this piece to the pool. And ⁓ I'm gonna be eating my froyo and looking at the score and doing my score study and just kind of getting so excited and fired up about what's coming. I know lots of people that do that. And I think there's a healthy balance in there. I think that can be perfectly healthy. I mean, look at you and I, right? At this stage in our lives, we don't really get the summer anymore. ⁓ it's just kinda go time and in a l in a lot of ways, ⁓ go time. That's my new piece. Everybody should buy it. Anyway, go ahead, sorry. ⁓ so But i it it is like just go time 'cause we're already prepping for the next year's recording sessions. We've got a million things in ⁓ that we're working through with the marketing departments about our current catalogs and then n ⁓ just all the things. ⁓ but that being said, I still find these pockets of time to recharge, to energize, to spend time with the family and ⁓ and so that when we do hit September, which is that's the closest to downtime I ever get is It's September. Right? Everybody else is on fire and I'm like, ⁓ this is great. I don't have anybody to go to the beach with, but I I'm ready.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I think one of the points you're bringing up, which I think is really great, is that teachers get a time in the summer to have their own development, which most of the year is spent on student development. And of course there's conference during the year, we know that. But to be able to be free and to have a couple of days to find to focus on yourself and you sh you can approach that conspirato. ⁓ hey, conspirito, that's one of my new pieces. Everybody should buy that one too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: ⁓ no, but the point of that is we're spend so much time on ⁓ focused on everybody else. That is part of recharging. And you're right about that. If you spend a little bit of time by yourself or whatever, focused on something to develop your own skills, whether it's conducting or being in a reading session. Those are great. I love summer reading sessions because even those just those events. One of my favorite parts of summer reading sessions, other than the music, is watching teachers just chat about their summer, what they've been up to. And I sometimes we have to get them to stop and like, okay, let's get to this first piece now. But I love seeing the interaction with that and getting that that vibrance back into them. And I think that's because they have that time to take a breath and focus on themselves and like like you said, all that. And yeah, I do we don't get summers in that regard. We do have different season cycles with what you and I do, but we do find, like you said, those pockets and those things that do energize us kind of I and I'm I'm not being silly when I say this, kind of like our podcast. I do find that the time that we carve out, the three of us here carve out to do this, it's very energizing because it's so different from the rest of what we do in our jobs that it's nice to connect on this and talk about these things that are very important that we don't always get to talk with our other colleagues about, although sometimes we do, but having a focused time to be able to do this, I think is energizing and it does recharge and it does teach me things. I learned from this and I really enjoy doing that. So we find different ways of filling that. need and desire. So but the summer for teachers is a great time to do that.
Speaker 2: Hey Chris, guess what? You're talking about a podcast and you're talking about learning and education. And you're talking about development and energizing the classroom. And you're never gonna guess this, but I think we have a guest today that kind of embodies all of those traits. What are the chances?
Speaker 3: What? ⁓ you're Wow, a teacher's teacher?
Speaker 2: Teachers, teacher and then some for sure.
Speaker 3: How about we introduce this fantastic guest?
Speaker 2: I think we should do it. ⁓ No. Can't do that either. Okay. It's a I was taking up on your break. That was your break. You always go on it on your break. Okay. Sorry.
Speaker 3: Sure. I wish I did. Okay, our guest today is widely considered to be an icon in the world of all things middle school band and more. She is retired director of bands for the Hill Country Middle School in Austin, Texas. While she was there, she performed numerous times at the Midwest Clinic and was involved in many high-profile commissions from composers including Frank DeKelly, Dana Wilson, Ron Nelson, John Mackey, Donald Grantham, and many others.
Speaker 2: You just couldn't get anybody good, could ya? Did by dead.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. Nobody was available. She was the first ever middle school band director to be elected into the American Bandmasters Association and maintains a very active schedule as a clinician, conductor, and adjudicator. Cheryl Floyd, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure to be here and to meet everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're excited. I've been wanting to get you on here for a while because there's just so many things that I think you have to offer ⁓ people. You've been in the trenches and you've been doing this for so long. and you've had that incredible program. But like I said, going back to that trenches, you've you've worked with so many programs either i in various capacities where you just meet them where they are and bring them up. And so I think to get started, one of the things that we would love to know is How did you get to that point? ⁓ I mean, did you just get shot out of a rocket ship in college and then suddenly you were like doing all this stuff? No. How did you how did you get to this point where you started to develop that kind of expectation of your students and be able to get ⁓ there?
Speaker 1: You know, I I graduated from Baylor. ⁓ I had a great time there. I I learned a lot of stuff, a lot. And ⁓ my first ⁓ job in Florida when we were in Tampa was at a private school there and I I had no idea what I was doing. But I just kept trying to find good music for the kids and and figure out what my headmaster wanted me to do. And we moved back to Texas. I subbed for a semester so I knew all all the schools that were opening up in the Austin area and that was really cool. And went to work at Mercoson Middle School in Austin, AISD and I I just thank heavens I had my husband to help and guide me and some other friends ⁓ that that stepped up and ⁓ I I just I I always thought that all of the music I played when I was in high school and the music I played when I was at Baylor was amazing. And then I started teaching and I was like, this is what we have? I mean, it was like it it was you know, Sonus Venturum. There's nothing wrong with Sonus Venturum, but you know, I wanted to play better music. And so ⁓ luckily as ⁓ Dick got going with the University Interscholastic League, ⁓ the prescribed music list would come up every year. And every once in a while when he would come home from a gig, he would say, Hey, you need take a look at Slayne by Wagner, or you need to take a look at something else. And then when Margola started publishing pieces, ⁓ I thought that sounds different. And that sounds like what I want to teach. And that's that's kind of how it started. You know, I I just loved everything I did in college and ⁓ all the music we played in high school. I thought it was amazing. So I wanted that for my students too.
Speaker 2: And I should mention, by the way, you you you you ⁓ most people should know this, but you're mentioning Dick Floyd. A lot of people know him as Richard Floyd, but we should mention that he has ⁓ an incredible background himself, but most notably, ⁓ out of everything, ⁓ probably the biggest thing is the fact that he was ⁓ able to marr marry Cheryl Floyd. And so ⁓ he is the the husband of the famous Cheryl Floyd. So ⁓ Yeah, we're gonna get him on here at some point as
Speaker 1: Excellent. Excellent. Well, you know, ⁓ Gladys Wright used to call him Mr. Cheryl Floyd. That was what Yeah. So
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. So I I there's so many places that we could start here. And and I think for me, I might start in the most recent part of what you do. And so ⁓ r lately, you've obviously been doing a lot of traveling. You do a lot of ⁓ I think you w you can call it like fine-tuning groups as they're getting closer to festival. And of course I would I would s imagine that you're kind of doing the same thing when you're working with these ⁓ all region bands and all state bands and everything like that. And so I guess one of my questions is what are the common issues that you're finding when you're getting into this either fine-tuning stage or when you're working with these really high profile region or all-state groups, common issues that you find and how are you addressing them?
Speaker 1: ⁓ wow, that's deep, Brian.
Speaker 2: I you know what? Let it be known that on this day I had an opportunity to be deep and it happened once at least. So w let's go with it.
Speaker 1: ⁓ you know, I I think a lot of times ⁓ the ⁓ the biggest thing that people miss, that groups miss, is the musicality of the piece that they're working on. They g they are so wrapped up in learning the notes and the rhythms and getting the tempos right, you know, that ⁓ all the the music that's in the music that maybe the composer didn't write everything in that needs to happen. ⁓ maybe the phrasing. They they haven't they haven't dealt with that. It's the musicianship.
Speaker 3: That's often the thing that they overlook because they like you said, they're blinded so much by the notes and rhythms and the the nuts and bolts of it that they sometimes they don't get the directors don't get a chance to step back and actually listen to themselves, listen to the band and and think about that bigger picture. So it's really great that you have the opportunity to go in and help reshape some of that. ⁓ Because a lot of times we're just too close to see what we can't see. And we step you know, and when when somebody else does it, ⁓ how did I miss that? You know, there's exactly all those moments.
Speaker 2: I always love to tell groups when I work with them, like exactly following what you're just saying, Sherilla. I will tell them as a composer myself, right? I can't speak for every other composer, but as a composer myself, fifty percent of my composing time is spent writing the notes on the page, the notes themselves. And then I say the other fifty percent of my time is spent writing everything that appears around those notes. And that gets so I say if you're playing that, congratulations. You've played half of my music if you're learning the notes and the rhythms. But then I always tell them I'm also really bad at math, or maybe this is a common core math thing, but there's another fifty percent. There's a third fifty percent. And that fifty percent is everything that I hear in my head that I just don't have enough room on the page to write. 'Cause if I wrote it all, the page would be just the entire page would be black ink. Right. ⁓ and so I will always say to a group, hey, if you're focusing only on the notes that I wrote, then you are successfully playing one third of what I wrote. And the room rooms usually usually gets a little quiet at that.
Speaker 3: Well, I think performance music performance is a collaborative experience. It's the performer, it's the director and the composer. And I know for myself, I purposely sometimes don't write all the information because I want the directors or a student to interpret it. Because I think it's important for them to have that voice in this in this part of the situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm gonna write that down.
Speaker 2: Are you gonna take notes about that?
Speaker 1: I'm taking notes. The notes about the notes. Well, you th I have a ha my high school kids just did solo contest ⁓ last Saturday and one of the little girls was working on a handle piece. And you know, I I you know, Ari, the the handle did not write everything in. We're we're supposed to put some things in, you know. And so that that's you mean we can do that? You know, for the for the student, that's an like an epiphany.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 3: I that to me, that's really important with my my experiences teaching as a teacher before doing what I do now. I think it's empowering to give students that decision making part of the process. And not for me as a composer, it's the teacher part of me too. I think it's important for them to have a voice in what it is that we're saying with this music. So it's like you said, it's little light bulb moments for those kids where they're waiting I can I can do a crescendo with this or I can absolutely. How do you think we should do it? I think great teaching starts with great questioning.
Speaker 1: My mother in law, God rest her soul, great lady. She would always, you know, she'd ask me to chop an onion in the kitchen or something like that. And I'd say, Well, how do you want me to do it, Myrtle? And she would say, Well, you're doing it, do it your way. So I like to I honor my mother in law every time I when kids ask me, Well, how do you want me to do it? Well, you're playing it, do it your way. You know, let's see if we like that. So I I sometimes they they just don't know, but yeah, I can have an opinion too.
Speaker 2: Hmm. I love that. ⁓ I I wanna back up for a minute because you were talking earlier about you weren't loving the music that was out there and you just like I wanted to play good music and you talk a lot. I know I've I've I've seen many sessions that you've done over the years and and you spend a lot of time talking about excellent music. Right. And playing excellent music. And and I imagine, and and this is on the band and orchestral side. I don't think this needs to be specific to either, but I imagine that there's a lot of people that are gonna say, well, my kids are only they're beginners, we're only playing five notes to an octave, and i there's not a lot of great music at that point, which I think we would all disagree. But I would love to know your thoughts on like What do you consider to be excellent music? Like what are you looking for, even at a very beginner level? Because obviously you've worked with everything. You've worked with all of them.
Speaker 1: Think the uniqueness of the piece is what I look for. I I I wanna I want to hear different orchestration, not just saxes and horns together all the time. I w I want to expose the kids to different colors and tam tambres. And I one of one of the pieces I love to do with my beginners is Mystery of the Maya. And I believe that's John Edmondson. And I love it because, you know, it starts out slow and eerie and then it goes fast, you know, and that's not something you see a lot in beginner music. I like to ⁓ something new and different for them. ⁓ one a piece I always did with my beginners is a piece called Chant for Percussion. I love that piece. That yes, and you know, I think that's right. And that piece
Speaker 2: Who's that? Andy Ballant?
Speaker 1: Every time we do it, people think it's like a headbanger song or something. I don't know. And
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the one that started off bum bum bum bum. Yep, I remember it, huh?
Speaker 1: Right, right, right. Yeah. And the kids it like the sixth graders would come in and they would say, Are we gonna play that chant for percussion piece? I mean, they had heard it maybe an older brother or sister had played it with us. So I mean I and I repeated pieces. If I liked it with the beginners, it was the first time they played it, you know? And and I kind of knew how it w it how the progress was supposed to be, so w which was really cool.
Speaker 2: Funny story about Andy Ballant, my father, when he was teaching, he actually had written a couple things and he sent it to Andy Ballant when he was the editor at Carl Fisher. And Andy listened to it and ⁓ wrote my father a very nice note, but but couldn't take the pieces and my father understood. fast forward many decades and ⁓ I was ⁓ an editor and And Andy had sent me several pieces and we we did a couple things of his, but I had to turn a f a few down that we didn't have room for. And I told my dad about that and he felt like he had finally gotten his revenge. Yep. All right. Take it. Now you know how it feels, buddy. ⁓ so no, he's written so many wonderful things. So I love that. But yeah, we got our revenge.
Speaker 1: It's even. It's all even now.
Speaker 3: ⁓ that's that's funny. Okay. I I did write down a question of like f finding good music and defining what good music is. And you you kind of gave a little bit of an example of that saying something unique. And I think that's important for people to think about as people as directors are listening to this show. ⁓ looking for unique I think that's what we look for as editors too. I mean, we both are curating catalogs and listening to all kinds of new music and of course writing it ourselves.
Speaker 2: ⁓ yeah. Go ahead, Chris.
Speaker 3: But I think that's kind of the goal is to find something unique, unique with your voice. And I guess when you didn't find it, you went out and commissioned it. So Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I ⁓ when I the PML, the prescribed music list, was helpful, you know, b again because the pe all the pieces were coming in and Dick would come home and say, Hey, take a look at this, take a look at that. So I mean he was f feeding my appetite, my musical appetite in in that regard. Or he would go out and do ⁓ an ⁓ an honor band, an all state band. He'd come home with with something that I just had to listen to. I had friends that in I would be at TBA or TMEA, our our our music conventions that would grab me and run me over and sit me down in a in a ⁓ at Penders, for instance, and say, A back then, you know, we had a cassette player and we had little teeny headphones and I would listen to these pieces. And so I I guess maybe people knew that I liked to to look for what was new and different. And I had a lot of friends who opened those doors for me. So
Speaker 3: I think the big takeaway from that is networking, conversation with colleagues, recommendations, using your network and sharing with each other out there with what you really like. I think that's really important. That's kind of how I found a lot of music too when I was teaching. I mean, I had my own personal tastes when I would research and I never went with any particular lists of particular things. I would do my own research, listen to everything, find out what, you know, I gravitated toward or what I think my kids would do. well with. And then I would also talk to my colleagues. Hey, what worked really well in your concert last year? And that's that's a really important step in picking your repertoire, which I think our audience should be always thinking about.
Speaker 1: I think it's important if you're especially if you're a young teacher. And you know, young teachers don't play chant for percussion in college, you know. They play Hammersmith and Hindemith and all all the things and John Mackey and and Brian's pieces and all all the all the things. And you know, they they just they need to go to more concerts, maybe go to band and orchestra events and hear other bands play and write down pieces that you like and pieces that you don't like so much. You know? There there's nothing wrong with with having the list the do not play list, you know. May and you and you may change your mind eventually about that.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm hearing from more and more college and high school, right? ⁓ but especially college band directors who are telling me that they are now in each cycle starting to consciously think about programming one what we would quote ⁓ call an educational piece. I I think everything is educational, so I don't really use that word, but one piece that is more maybe aligned with middle school elementary, you know, band, something like that. Because so many of these, as you just said, ⁓ were the kids are not playing this music ever. And then they they get out there into the world and many of them are teaching at that level. And so they love to program one piece in a cycle, obviously making sure that it's of great musical value. That's never a that's that's never an option. Like that's a that is a deal breaker, ⁓ or a non starter, but but to expose them to to different music. And then I'm starting to see some high school programs that are doing that too. Say, hey, we want to do one thing that just kind of reminds us of our roots and and reminds these kids and ⁓ helps make that connection. So hopefully that'll continue. I think it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. And ⁓ Vandegrift High School, ⁓ with their top group with their wind ensemble, is playing pieces one movement of Frank DeKelly's Simple Gifts, the third movement, I think it is, because those those seniors played that their eighth grade year. And they always get to vote and pick a piece to play on that spring concert. And I what a great idea. You know, and and and their middle school band director is gonna come back and conduct them. What a great idea. You know, so it's a memory and and they've given their their vote to that.
Speaker 3: It's funny, in music only in the world of educational music as Brian likes to call it, ⁓ do we put grade levels
Speaker 2: Brian doesn't like to call it that.
Speaker 3: Well, you'll I think you'll agree with this point though, Brian. Okay. We're the only ones that put numbers on pieces. I don't think Mozart wrote a grade one or a grade two. I think music is written and then it's up now we're putting labels on it. So the music has to be a standalone piece. And I do agree with you, Brian, that all music is educational music. But we're the only ones that put numbers on it. And we have it I mean, obviously for good reason we're putting numbers on things because of developmental skills and all that. But that doesn't that number doesn't indicate the depth of the music. Right. It just shows what so I think a piece could be a grade one in rist in whatever we call the restrictions or levels, but it can be a grade five artistically and emotionally. So I I sometimes think programming we I wish I wish we could take the numbers away and just pick music that you connect to and that your students will connect to and for what
Speaker 2: Remember that recording of Austin Symphonic Band doing my rippling watercolor.
Speaker 1: I love that piece. I think, ⁓ that piece is so hard to do in s in so many ways, but so worth it. And I love Lullaby to the moon. ⁓ I love that one too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's it's wonderful. And and you mentioned the whole thing about the middle school directors coming back. ⁓ and Chris mentioned that I I it's so funny. If I could tell you the number of seniors that have played Moscow nineteen forty one as like a repry to to be like, ⁓ we really want to play that again. It's like that's it's exciting. But I do love that idea. And and to the grade level question, ⁓ how when was the last time that the New York Phil or the Chicago Symphony or Fort Worth or whoever you want to pick said, you know what? DivorJoc New World is it seems like a grade four and a half or so and we're not gonna do that because a lot of high schools can can at least attempt that and we're we're more of a we're more of a a right of spring kind of group, right? We wanna go all the way. ⁓
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. ⁓ That just doesn't sound no, it doesn't sound doable. Yeah, I mean you you play what you like, you play what goes well together. what fits your
Speaker 2: So I'd love to talk a little bit about all of these commissions that you've done, because you have done a lot of commissions. And one of the things that really strikes me is that really, outside of somebody like Frank De Kelly, who did have a background in being able to write at a pretty wide variety of levels, you really went after a lot of composers who I I would pretty much say were this was not their wheelhouse. They were not comfortable. writing music that was a little bit more accessible. And of course your group was still phenomenal, but it still required them to think of it in a little bit of a different way, right? I mean, Hill Country was not going to be playing Wine Dog C, right? And so I would love to know a little bit about how you approached, because I think there's so many people that will benefit from hearing this. How did you approach them? How did you either one, convince them that they that they would write for you. And then how much were you in touch with them during the process so that when this piece came back, you weren't looking at this going, This is a great piece. I can't play this. There's no way.
Speaker 1: We could talk for days about this, you know. 'Cause I have I have a story for every piece. ⁓ probably a T shirt too. But ⁓
Speaker 2: Well I mean we're happy to hear a few of them. I mean for s if there's ones that stick out, right? Yeah for sure. If we can beep out the names. Like you could say John beep and we'll beep out the last name so nobody knows who it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. All right. ⁓ when ⁓ the first piece that we had done, we commissioned was Cajun folk songs. ⁓ the reason I wanted to do that is it was the first group of students I had started in sixth grade. I wanted to do something special to honor those kids. And my husband said, Well, why don't you do a commission? I was like, I don't know how to do that. And he said, Well, let's talk about it. So we did. And we had had Frank Techelly at the time was living, ⁓ he was teaching at Trinity University, about an hour away from Austin. And I think he ca yeah, he did come up for CBDNA. And so Dixon, why don't you call him and and ask him if he'd come and visit with your kids? Because we were playing Portrait of a Clown with our second group, which we had done the premiere of just because of Manhattan Beach and Bob Margolis. And then we were doing ⁓ Fortress. Which he had written for my brother-in-law, Robert Floyd. And so ⁓ Frank came and he met the kids and he was thirty years old and they thought he was ⁓ they thought our music supervisor who was in the room was ⁓ the composer because he was the old guy and they didn't know who Frank was. And when Frank sat down at the piano and started playing, they were in love. So when we started talking about this project and I started talking about composers and the composers we'd played that year, they all wanted Frank De Kelly to write for us. Because they knew him. That's what happens in middle school. When they know something, they like it. And so I reached out to him and he said he couldn't do it. He said he was too busy. And I was heartbroken because I've always been, ⁓ it doesn't hurt to ask. It's kind of my philosophy. And so a couple of weeks went by and Dick said, Have you gotten anything done on this? And I was like, No. I and he said, Well, you it y they can't write the piece in three months. And literally the next week, Frank called me back and said, Have you found a composer? And I said, No. And he said, Well, my schedule's opened up. I want to do it for you. And truly, if that had never happened, I don't know if the others would have. So to me, that that's a real magical moment in all of that. ⁓ Dana Wilson. Okay, so I heard Dana Wilson ⁓ the premiere of Shakata singing the world into existence at UT. ⁓ and I just thought, wouldn't it be neat if I asked him to write a piece for me? You know? 'Cause well the well the kids the second piece was Renaissance Fair. So with middle school kids, you know, when you do it once, you're supposed to do it all the time. So then they started, Well, who's our composer next year? And who's our composer next year? And and I'm like, We have to have money for this, you guys know. And so we did ⁓ Dana Wilson did Sang for Us, the third that was the third piece. And so I'm like working with my trumpets one afternoon in sexual and I've written the syllabication underneath ⁓ the crazy all the crazy rhythms. And this little boy, Todd Lauderdale, looks at me and says, You know, if you'd relax, we could play this. Because I was being very, very, you know, y y we've gotta we've gotta count this exactly right. We have to use the right syllables. So you a and then we we did Shenandoah because we had had a student who had died. And ⁓ the parents actually interviewed several composers and settled on Frank. And so there was just about every commission we did had a lot of composer interaction, first of all with me, but just about every piece had we had the composer present. And I I I think that's really important. And I I know you can you can also zoom and do all those things now and th that's a good standby. You know, I ⁓ Bob Margolis does not leave his home, so he did not come to visit us about Renaissance Fair. He sent us lots of pictures of of music that was written during that period of time and and we talked about it a lot on the phone. I th ⁓
Speaker 2: Did did anyone deliver anything to you that you just said, Okay, hold on. ⁓ like my trumpets aren't playing hides yet? Or was there any of those things where you just said, ⁓ this or or did they ask you and say, Hey, can we do this? Is this okay? Or did they just write and then you just had to figure it out?
Speaker 1: ⁓ I you know, ⁓ I try very hard not to give them a lot of parameters because I wanted their voice for my kids. Mm-hmm. And I wanted the piece to have a life, a long life. And so I would generally say, ⁓ I don't have a piccolo player this year. Don't write any piccolo stuff. ⁓ no E flat clarinet, please. You know, ⁓ send me all the percussion instruments you plan on using in this piece so I can round them up or buy them. Or make sure we have them. You know, the highest note my trumpet players can play well is, I would say that for sure. Mm-hmm. You know. my oboe player is awesome this year, but you don't have to write an oboe solo if you don't want to. You know. Got it. ⁓ I I also one of the things there was a CBDA meeting that Dick went to and they were talking ⁓ they had a bunch of really ⁓ great composers there. And one of the questions that was asked was, why haven't you written a grade three? And the answer from the panel was, Nobody's asked me. And so I was like, when Dick came home with that, I was like, well, I can do that. I'm good at asking people to do things. And the one you you asked me if there was a piece that when it came to me, I was like, ⁓ you can't play that. But the the story has to do with Don Grantham. And Don came to my fall concert and he said, I I want ⁓ and I said, Please don't come to my fall concert. We're not ready yet. We just got started. And he came, showed up, came up on on stage. And he said, you know, I I I wanna I want you to come and visit me after Midwest and bring some of your favorite grade three and four pieces and let's just talk about it. And I no agenda. And so he starts playing all these pieces on the piano when I'm there ⁓ in his office. And he stops and he and he said, You know, I I really wanna ⁓ write a grade three and I could write this piece for you. And I said, I don't have any money. Because I didn't. I'd spent it all. And he said, We'll worry about that later. And so we started he started working on it and he brought his first wife, who was very sick at the time, in her wheelchair every time he came to Hill Country Middle School to visit. And he finished the first two movements and we played those that spring. And I thought I was in love. I was in heaven, you know, because I mean, who doesn't like Don Grantham? And so Then he wrote the third movement over the summer and sent it to me and he had gone crazy. I mean, I was like, I can't play this. Mm-hmm. I can't play this. But Austin Symphonic Band did play it and I conducted. So it there was an opportunity for me to have that moment with the whole piece. But I but I that third movement, ⁓ I remember when Rob Carnahan, bless bless his soul, he when he did it at U T was like I think some of the clarinets got lost in that third movement, you know. So I that's kinda how I've I dealt with that, you know.
Speaker 2: So for everybody listening, if s if you do commission a composer and it's too hard, just conduct it with the Austin Symphonic Band and you'll be
Speaker 1: Find find your local community bin and do it. ⁓ Yeah, you could do that, yeah. Or Cedar Park wins or you there's so many great ones these days. ⁓
Speaker 2: Okay. Well you could do that too. Absolutely. There's there's there's there's a lot of great ones. And I will say one thing that that I heard and I wasn't there, but you were talking about writing syllables down for for some of your players and stuff like that. Somebody told me and actually th multiple people came up. We were and you had done a clinic somewhere and you were working with a group, and at one point I was told that you turned around and you were doing something with them and you just turned around to everybody and you said, you know, it is okay to teach by road sometimes. and and for whatever reason this like rocked people's worlds. Like you can
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: But apparently that I mean that obviously when you need to do that, it's okay. And and and and pedagogically that's okay, right? You're you're teaching them how to play. And I think ⁓ I mean, what what are your thoughts on rote teaching in in general?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm I'm a Suzuki parent. Our son ⁓ took Suzuki piano from four and a half all the way through high school. I wasn't so sure about it before then, but I saw the benefits. And the Heart of Texas Suzuki Association, all of those teachers kind of brought me into their fold. And they're very, you know, very, very picky about that. They feel very strongly about rope teaching and I saw how As our son listened to those pieces in the car, on the CD, going to school, coming home, that how fast he learned them. And you know, we talk before we read and we dance and walk before we all those things, there are things that prerequisites that happen. ⁓ and why ⁓ you sing before you learn what you how it's notated. I I just that was an epiphany to me. my Suzuki experience was.
Speaker 3: Think it's I think it's one of those things that you use it wisely. And you're right. I think a lot of the challenge comes from when people don't connect, they don't make that bridge between the oral and the written. And some people rely too much on both. Right. So that I think that's where the challenge of that is because all the things you're saying about it are so true. Like people can connect. The ultimately the goal is to connect with music. And however we get them there is what that is. But we've also music is what's written on I always tell people that music is not what's written on the page. It's what you're hearing and what's feeling. What's written on the page is how we just hand it to somebody else so that they can decipher it and communicate it themselves. But that learning by ear and learn I didn't read music until college. That's part of my story. I learned everything by ear because play it for me. Okay, I got it now. Trumpet player. So I could play it. And we played some really hard music. I was afraid. I think by the time it was like I saw that those dots and notes on the page, I'm like, I can't read this stuff. And then in college, I was like, okay, I got into college because I was a good player. Now I gotta figure out what I am doing. When that unlocked for me and I wasn't afraid of it anymore, that basically became my teaching mantra for the next twenty eight years of not having kids be afraid. But you have to I'd hate buzzwords as Brian knows, but we have to meet them where they are. Some kids aren't ready for the full notation tilt. Sometimes they need that bridge and we are providing that for them. But you're right.
Speaker 2: Let's drill down into that a little bit more, Chris. Can we
Speaker 3: Circle back to that. We'll circle back to that.
Speaker 2: ⁓ I I really wanna get into nuts and bolts for a qu for a minute, because this is this is your wheelhouse, Cheryl. And and you were just a second ago talking about Suzuki and kids learning faster and things like that. and and I know that you're a firm believer in kids, ⁓ they learn the fastest when they're happy. ⁓ and and you talk a lot about the environment, right? This fun, dynamic learning environment. And so can you talk a little bit about What this environment looks like, how teachers ⁓ can kind of create this environment, because obviously we want people to be able to walk out from this and say, all right, what are things that I can do to create this environment to kind of jumpstart this learning so that kids are able to learn faster, feel more confident, be more confident risk takers, like all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: Brian, are you talking about like maybe beginners? Is that kind of where you're
Speaker 2: I ⁓ to be honest, I don't I don't know that who I'm gonna do a show. Hey, you do what you think and we'll see how that goes. Look at that. I'm learning too, people.
Speaker 1: Right. ⁓ you know, I when I started my beginners and I d started this at Hill Country, not at Mercoson, my first full band job, but I the first six weeks at least of school, we did not read music.
Speaker 2: So not at all. Look at that. So what did those six weeks look like? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Mm-mm. We had no stands in the room in front of the kids so I could see everything they were doing. And I did I played copy me. I made all that up. ⁓ you know, whether it was a clarinet class or a saxophone class, because we had we were lucky to have heterogeneous classes. We really were lucky with that. And so I tr always tried to play until somebody played better than me, and then I would let that person be ⁓ the demonstrator for the class. But we would learn w we learned three notes and then we learned three note songs. And it would I would play and they would play back to me. I would play and go down the row and make sure everybody knew what they were doing, looking at their ombusures because there was nothing in front of them to get in my way to see what they were doing. I could see their fingers, I could see their faces. It was perfect. All right. We would learn hot cross buns, the number one song for all beginners. And then Mary had a little lamb. And then French song. You can play all three of those songs with three notes. And then I'd start adding notes. And then next thing I knew, let me back up. If your flute players can play head joint songs, so they can play all kinds of songs just on their head joint by using their pointer finger and putting it different lengths into the head joint. So that's a really great way. I'm a flute player. So I that's how I I teach them. When it's time to start. playing out of the book, I stand behind them because kids think that the notes are written on your shirt. They keep looking at you. And so, ⁓ nope, we're gonna and and we finger and sing everything. And I try my darndest to sing on pitch. That's scary for some people. But inevitably somebody in your group will be able to do that in your class. Then I j I just I don't start you know how those all those beginner books have all those whole note songs at the beginning? What's that all about? That's not any fun. I want to play a song I know, and I want my kids to go home and play for their families and their mom to say, That's Mary had a little lamb. Not for the kid to say, no, mom, that's five makes a team. There's nothing wrong with five makes a team, but they they want to play songs they know. I always ⁓ there was one little there was one clarinet class in particular that was amazing. And they the other thing is I kept the instruments at school until they could play a real song. ⁓ but then ⁓ they this little group of clarinet players, they had a sleepover and they brought their clarinets to the sleepover. And they little girl came in on Monday and said, Mrs. Food, we figured out how to play firework. Katy Perry. And I was like, Well, okay, then show me how it goes. And it's close. And I said, Well, hey, let me show you how to play C sharp on the clarinet so you can make it sound even more like firework. You know, I you never somebody wants to play a song, they made it up, do it. You know, do it. ⁓ if they ⁓ let them play their favorite songs out of the book on Fridays, you know. And and also sometimes on Fridays we sat anywhere, sit anywhere Friday, play the song you want to play. There's all ⁓ there's all kinds of beginner things that I would do. And then then I always when when I was programming for my seventh and eighth graders, my older kids, I again I'm looking at what's unique. I'm looking at the time limit. We always need to do that. ⁓ but I also knew, Chris and Brian and Marianne, that if I if I was bored Halfway through this cycle, the concert cycle, teaching it, they've been bored a whole a long time. Mm-hmm. That I picked wrong, you know? And I I I learned that the hard way, which I think most people do. You know, it's like that that this is just not working. But I picked a I picked the wrong piece. Maybe that answered a few questions.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That does happen. But actually a couple a couple of highlights from what you're saying that are st are that I'm connecting with really well is it sounds to me like you're you maybe you didn't say this out loud, but you were removing barriers for kids, having them play without anything in front of them, teaching them notes and music without a book, without anything, standing behind them, their interactivity with that. The other thing that stands out to me is you bringing it home. I'm gonna send them home with a song and you're getting from that parental support. Right. That is something that is really hard to get that buy-in. Whether you did this preconceived or it just happened naturally, that's genius because a lot of times it bothers me and my wife whenever somebody posts something on Facebook like complaining about the sound of the kids practicing at home, like for because to me those are beautiful sounds. But some angry parent will put out there, I can't wait for this noise to stop. But to send them home with a song and to turn that around into something positive, now you've got parent support of not only their child, but of your program, which we all as music advocates understand is essential in order to do what we want to do. So those are two big things I think that are really important. Removing barriers for kids so that they can have an easy connection and an honest connection with music. And two, finding creative ways to get parental and community support of your program. without having to stand up at a board meeting to preach about it. I think that's those are very, very powerful concepts.
Speaker 1: Chris, if I can piggyback, you were talking about how you didn't know how to read music until you got to college. Right. I have this wonderful boy, flute player, student, and who is on the spectrum. And that's all I'll say about that. But he can hear, just like you, he can hear anything one time and he can play it. But that means that when he sits down to learn his music for his band, that's really hard for him. So we always talk about how your gift is that you can hear something, you can memorize something right away. And I, for one, wish I could do that. You know, there are most of the kids in the room wish they could do that. But that's his gift. Right. And so to capitalize on the fact that that is his gift, now let's make it even better by teaching you to read. Yeah, meet I I know, meet kids where they are. I really do believe in that. I I'm with you. All right.
Speaker 2: No, I'm with ⁓ same thing. I I talked ⁓ I think on our last episode about this blind piano player that I had and and ⁓ in in Arizona and she ⁓ couldn't see beyond about half a foot in front of her. ⁓ and she also couldn't make out music at all in the way she would learn she learned this entire program by memorizing it. H her teacher would play it for her and then she would play it back. And she memorized all the rehearsal numbers, she memorized where everything was for the entire program. And I always say what what one people view as a disability or a setback, ⁓ can easily be turned around and say, Well, actually, isn't that a superpower? And and just being able to really lean into that and celebrate, whether it's band or orchestra or choir, anything. ⁓ we all have those kids who just they learn differently, differently. Sometimes I feel like differently is a code word for you struggle. ⁓ but I think really differently is just saying we all have different strengths in how we learn. And it's our job as teachers or conductors, and sometimes we're both, right? But it's our job to figure out every person's strength and and conduct to that strength. It's our job to decode all of that, right?
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they're tactile, sometimes they're auditory. So it you just have to find out how they learn and and capitalize on that.
Speaker 3: I think a good teacher is one that seeks out the differences between students and wants to connect with that student in the way that they need to be connected with. Cause there are every individual is an individual and they all learn differently. Sure, there's some generalities, but you're right. Some kids are visual, some are auditory, some are tactile. And it's it's so true. A good teacher will figure that out and try to find out because our ultimate goal is for them to have a musical connection. And for them to actually our ⁓ our I ultimate goal is to make them b grow and become great human beings that they already are. But we tend to do that through music and the ways that we can try to connect with them through music. And a teacher that goes out of their way to seek what each person's individual superhero aspect is and to bring them along, I think is what makes a good teacher versus the dismissive one or the okay teacher. And I think that's really important to ⁓ to think about. And I'm I'm You're making me think about my teaching career and I'm thinking about all these different students that I've had over the years and what made them special. And there are definitely standout students that ha that were unique. And not they weren't all struggles, so so to speak. Other kids had like I don't know, I flute players that were just phenomenal, just natural ability, and then other ones that had struggles. W having them work together or various things that like it's just important to see the individuality of the group in front of us. And I think that's important.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And you know, I I believe in learning to read. You know, my my kids could not have played the pieces that we played if they couldn't read. You know, y but they because they have been they were exposed to so much different music, that made opening that door easier for them.
Speaker 3: For me, it was just fear. I would I would I was into music and I loved it and I was playing I had the ability. But then I felt like I was probably too late. Like I'm never gonna learn that stuff. And for me also when I understood the logic of it all, it's like, ⁓ my gosh, why was I so afraid of this? This is amazing. Which I like I said, at the time I didn't realize was setting me up for my whole life career as a teacher and as a composer. I mean, I didn't want any students to be intimidated by I wanted to remove that barrier. I didn't want fear to be a barrier in my students and their connection with music. So at first it took me removing that barrier for myself. And when that weight was lifted, it was like, ⁓ my gosh, this is gonna set my tone for the next thirty years of teaching. So it's a fear based thing or who knows what it is, but it's it starts with the connection of music.
Speaker 1: You have now you have two superpowers in music.
Speaker 2: Man, I'm just trying to get one. Jeeze. ⁓ I'll get there.
Speaker 1: Well you have ⁓ you can write music. I can't write music. That's that's your superpower. ⁓
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, fair enough. ⁓ we've been talking a lot about ⁓ teaching students and and mentoring students. I'd love to now kind of switch that to teaching and mentoring teachers because you've worked with a lot of teachers, ⁓ either either still before they became teachers as student teachers or ⁓ brand new teachers. And I would love for you to just talk a little bit about What are as a as a new teacher, whether they're band or orchestra, what are some things that they really can latch on to? What what what what are the things that you see that you are always recommending or or ⁓ things that you're always noticing that you're saying, Ooh, I would spend more time on this, or this is a great way forward, anything that you do when you're mentoring younger younger people.
Speaker 1: ⁓ you know, th this is like the such a new thing for me since retirement nine years ago. I mean it's just like, ⁓ this is so fun to to help the grown ups, you know, this is collaboration. It's it's great. I think that it's important for every young teacher to have a mentor. And it might be ⁓ at first y you're kinda scared to ask maybe ⁓ the band director across town, but maybe the English teacher in town in in your school can come and sit in your classroom and And help with just some basic things, classroom management, the way the room's arranged, you know, your tone of voice, those kinds of things. ⁓ but finding somebody that is a music person, a band or orchestra director that you trust. And my dear friend Lynn Jackson, if you you probably know Lynn Jackson, but Lynn, her her mantra is show me your dirty laundry. Don't wait until every I is dotted, every T is crossing, it's perfectly in tune to ask me to come to hear your band. Ask me sooner. You know, so that I can say, ⁓ we need to do something about that clarinet sound. Or do you use a drone and when you have clarinet sectionals or when you teach your babies? You know, get a mentor sooner rather than later. And be willing to try the things. ⁓ one of the schools I go to, they ⁓ she will r routinely tell the kids that I am there to teach her and to teach them. But she wants and sometimes it's ⁓ we have to talk a little bit about conducting. You know why this is hard right here? It's your make your subdividing or your what whatever it is, you know, that needs to be better. So I I think that's the number one thing. I think you need to as a a if a teacher who wants to grow you want to go to those c other concerts that you can go to or zoom into them. I think live and in person's better. COVID taught us that. But, you know, it's it's it's great to go to to a band ⁓ orchestra event and hear lots of different groups and how different people program and copy what you like. I think that that's the way you get started. And just, you know, what great young band pieces there are available now. ⁓ back again, when I started it was Sonas Ventorum and that was not doing it for me. And I I had to find something else. ⁓ what else, Brian?
Speaker 2: I mean, th there's so there's so much in there that that you're saying. And I I love the idea. I I truly love the idea that you're working with the ensemble, but you're also working directly with the teacher. And and I think I might have said this one time, but I was I was in DC ⁓ with Frank Battiste at one time and he made this comment that after listening to a group, he said I don't wanna go work with the band or the orchestra. I wanna work with the conductor. He said, because I can go in there and I can make the band sound great, right? I know all the tricks. I know how to make that band sound great, but I'm not going home with that band. Their teacher is going home with that band. So I wanna work with them so that they understand what they're able to do so that all these things that I would have done, they can now take that home with them. And and do all that. And I think sometimes it's better to do that. I I think when you're getting a mentor, don't think that you're this is gonna be, okay, we're gonna put you on the chopping block right in front of the entire ensemble. ⁓ these are private conversations, but I think sometimes we don't realize what we may be doing to inhibit ⁓ unintentionally, of course, ⁓ the growth of a group or ⁓ very often I will I will ⁓ after a after I've done a session, I'll just talk with a teacher about a a warm-up and I'll just say, Hey. group sounds great, ⁓ but let's just talk about the warm-up for a minute and now talk about how ⁓ the articulations weren't together, right? Or they weren't all using the same amount of bow or the same contact point or or whatever it may be. And then we wonder why all those issues were in the rehearsal itself, because we hadn't ironed that out in in the warmup. And so little things like that I think can make a pretty profound impact, which is why I love that you're kind of addressing this on multiple fronts, so to speak, right?
Speaker 1: Sometimes I will even stand in front of the conductor, like in between the band and the conductor, and just we'll have a a little private conversation, whether it's start them and go sit down and just see what happens. You know. The they the kids know the pulse of the piece and and the pulse maybe the director's giving is not right, you know, or it's too heavy or whatever. You know, the kids know. And sometimes you just a little private conversation, a little, hey, why don't you ⁓ conduct no higher than the top of your head? You know, just just little things that make everything a lot easier. Do you conduct higher than your head?
Speaker 2: I feel that so deeply. Cutting these to my soul.
Speaker 3: He used He used to
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, until until about ⁓ yeah, two o'clock this afternoon. No, I I I I I get it, right? And I've watched videos. It's funny because I do watch videos and it's almost like you become your own mentor at that point because I watch videos of myself and I realize, ⁓ my gosh, like why why am I so high? Or why am I so out or why is my arm so long there when it doesn't need to be? So yeah, I think I think we can sometimes ⁓ be our own mentors, right? And looking at it from a different context. Yeah.
Speaker 1: How many times have we, especially when I first started teaching, Dick would always have me make you record your ensemble and bring it home? Those are the most difficult dinner conversations we ever had, you know? And but but how many times I said, ⁓ well, mm, you know, all those things that just take up time, you know, or counting off using with eight counts. Who needs eight counts? You know, th those those things sometimes just hearing yourself go and saying, I'm gonna get rid of that. I'm gonna make myself better. That's a good thing too.
Speaker 2: And we don't need eight counts, right? I mean all those people that give eight counts they do that at the beginning of the piece and then there's four formatas in the piece and they give a release and a downbeat and a new tempo and everybody follows them just fine.
Speaker 1: Just fine. Well, you know, if you give eight counts, that's eight counts for somebody in the back row to come in early. A lot of yeah.
Speaker 2: I have heard some amazing solos at Midwest. ⁓ just amazing. And they were they were played with a beautiful sound.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Burp. Yeah. Yeah. Burp. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3: I did you mentioned before about stealing and I think that that's something I've also talked about with student teachers and and
Speaker 2: We don't promote that on this podcast, but I think
Speaker 3: I do. Good the best teachers have stolen from everyone else. So I would always tell student teachers and other people I would say steal what you f if you like something I'm doing, steal it. And if you don't, then dismiss that. But in that in that effort or in that thought, I was stealing from you yesterday. I was watching a video of you conducting a clinic, which I saw online, and much to my surprise, you got to the piece. You were doing all kinds of great warm up things and I loved what you were doing because you were again removing barriers You were doing warm ups, you're talking about articulations, getting the kids to play together, having individuals play their their tuning pitches, their playing scales and all that kind of thing. Then you got to the music and I was very surprised it was Dancing Kites, one of my pieces.
Speaker 1: I love that piece. That's one of my favorite pieces. That's adorable.
Speaker 3: I was so surprised 'cause I had no idea. I'm listening, I'm like, Yeah, I I relate to all the things you're talking about. And they'll say I'm like, Wait a minute. I wrote that one. That was like it goes back to that grade level one. That piece is I heard ⁓ Broken Arrow play that piece at Midwest too and was like the artistry of it was just unbelievable. So but I just thought that was a little cute story to ⁓
Speaker 1: Awesome. That's great story. Yeah. That's a great story. That's absolutely that is a wonderful pie. That's another one of the pieces that's unique in many ways and makes a really nice statement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and have Darren and Broken Arrow do that too. I mean they're they're gonna it was they're gonna find the music in that for sure. Yeah. And deliver it. It's it's so gratifying.
Speaker 3: It was phenomenal.
Speaker 1: I think the first time we played at Midwest, one of the pieces I conducted was with with Austin Symphonic Band was Rob Grice's Gentle River. ⁓ That is a precious little piece. And then we went to a a a birthday party. We had some friends, one of the guys in the in in Austin Symphonic Band knew one of the clarinet players in the Chicago Symphony. So we went to a birthday party before that. And the clarinet player came up to me and said, My favorite piece was Gentle River. I mean it just it just was so pretty, it just touched him. So
Speaker 2: I love it. we could probably go on for hours, but I I you've given so much for everybody to think about. And I just ⁓ I wanna thank you for for taking the time. ⁓ we've been trying to do this for a while, right? But you're so darn busy doing like music stuff that Yeah. ⁓ but we're we're so grateful. ⁓ you've done so many things and you've given back to so many folks and
Speaker 1: I've been going crazy, yeah.
Speaker 2: It's just one of those things that it's it's hard to you you're like one of those Kevin Bacon people of music education where it's hard to find people that have not been impacted by you. And so, ⁓ I know I personally am grateful for all of our contacts over the years and and all the discussions that we've had and and I just can't wait to see you again and and keep learning from you. So I personally just wanna thank you for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: My pleasure and s and what what a joy I've known Brian for a while to meet Chris face to face. And Mary Ann, you've been like so kind and like l flexible and and letting me know what I needed to do. So that's ⁓ it's been a an absolute joy to be with you.
Speaker 2: say it all the time, but Marianne is kind and she's flexible and somehow that was like, Okay, you're the only one that can handle Brian and Chris. So let you guys you do that and and that's where it goes. So that's right. All right. ⁓ yeah. So thanks a million. ⁓ we appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anytime. You guys have a great week. You too. You too. All right. Bye.
Speaker 3: Wanna get in touch with us? Email us at takenotes at makemusic.com.
Speaker 2: Take Notes is sponsored by Alfred Music and Make Music. Our executive producer is Marianne White.
Speaker 3: Our theme music was written by Brian Balmages and produced by Fred Flowerday. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. See you next time.