0:00:38 - Amy Myers
We have a remarkable success rate and the earlier that Before we get into this week's interview, just a quick reminder that we've created a special offer specifically for listeners of this show, on your very first purchase of any of my products on amymayersmdcom. Simply enter promo code takeback15 at checkout and you'll receive a 15% discount on your first AMMD purchase. That's promo code takeback15 at amymayersmdcom. All right? Well, everybody, we have Dr Terry Walls here. Terry Walls and I go way back. I think our books came out about the same time. We've been to many a conference together and had many a meal together, so I'm very excited to have you as a guest on Take Back your Health podcast.
0:01:40 - Terry Wahls
Hey, thank you for having me.
0:01:42 - Amy Myers
Well, I know your story, but for the listeners who are new to our podcast and may not know of you, could you kind of tell us first your background, but also your personal story? You have a personal story with MS and we'd love to hear it.
0:01:57 - Terry Wahls
So I'm an internal medicine doc. I was here at the University of Iowa with the Iowa City of VA and I had developed weakness in my left leg, so drag it, get home. Then I see the neurologist who does the exam and says you know, terry, this could be bad or really really bad. And so for the next three weeks I'm going through my workup and I'm thinking about the fact I've already had 20 years of worsening electrical face pain due to trigeminal neuralgia, and so actually I'm praying for a rapidly fatal diagnosis because I don't want to become disabled. Three weeks later I get the spinal tap and the conclusion is I have relapsing, remitting multiple sclerosis. I do my research, I find the best MS center in the country, I see the best physician, I take the newest drugs. Three years later I hear tilt recline wheelchair and I take mitosantro in a form of chemotherapy. That does not help. Then I take tizabri, the new biologic, that does not help, and then I'm switched to cell sept. And then I ask myself a really big question Am I doing all that I can? And I go back to reading the basic science and I start developed a theory that mitochondrial dysfunction is what strives disability and I start taking a supplement cocktail that to support my mitochondria, and it helps, you know a little bit. I'm super grateful, but I'm still declining. Then I'm called into my chief of staff's office and he tells me he's going to reassign me to the traumatic brain injury clinic come January, six months in the future. Describes the job and I know I'm not going to be able to do that job. So I'm upset but like, okay, that's what that's going to be. Then I discover a study using electrical stimulation of muscles and convinced my physical therapist to give me a test session. It hurts really bad, but then I feel great and he says we add the electrical stimulation to my physical therapy. And I do that every day. And then two weeks later I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine and they have a course in neuroprotection. I take their course, I have a longer list of supplements and then I have a really big aha. Amy and I laugh at how long it took to have this. I'd already adopted the paleo diet for five years, but what if I redesigned my paleo diet based on the supplements that I'm taking and where those ingredients are in the food supply? And so that's more research.
And in December of 07, I start this new diet and for you all the listeners, I want you to know how disabled I am. At that point I cannot sit up, but it's been years since I could sit up. I'm in a zero gravity chair with my knees higher than my nose. That's how I staff clinics but with the residents. That's how I take my meals at home. I can't go out to restaurants, I can't go to movies, and we basically drive to Wisconsin with me laying horizontal in the car. I'm beginning to have brain fog and my trigeminal neuralgia is relentlessly more difficult. So I clearly understand that I'm on track to become bedridden by my illness, probably demented by my illness, and probably have my trigeminal neuralgia turned permanently on, such that light sound, even when it's on moving my tongue, triggers the pain. So I'm dueling and I'm unable to communicate.
0:05:20 - Amy Myers
And let me just you mentioned the year. Do you mind sharing how old you were at this point 52. 52. So I mean very young Prime of your life, frankly.
0:05:30 - Terry Wahls
Prime of my life. I'm diagnosed when I'm 45. I'm in the wheelchair when I'm 48. When I'm 52, it's clear I'm going to be forced into medical treatment. I'm clearly going to be a burden for my family. It's a very grim future.
0:05:48 - Amy Myers
And you're still on how many drugs at this point.
0:05:51 - Terry Wahls
Well, you know, I'm taking Maximum Dose Gevapentin, backlipin. I'm taking Celsept, which is a transplant drug. I failed my disantrone, I failed tizabri.
0:06:03 - Amy Myers
And then you have this cocktail as well. Do you mind sharing the cocktail at the time that you're taking for your mitochondria?
0:06:11 - Terry Wahls
I was taking B vitamins, creatine, carnitine, lipoic acid, coenzyme Q, and I was also taking magnesium, zinc and, of course, omega-3s. And the other January comes I have to start this new clinic, the traumatic ranger clinic. The first two weeks I'm just going to watch for my Tilt-Weak Lenghthule chair. And then the third week comes and when I get home on Monday I tell Jack you know, that wasn't too bad. And then I also say I'd like to try sitting at the table in a regular chair. So we take away my zero gravity chair and we bring my regular chair and I have supper with my family. Wow, first time in years.
And then at the end of the week, on Friday, I tell Jack I think I can do this. This wasn't too bad. And my physical therapist says Terry, you are definitely getting stronger. I want you to do your exercises 10 minutes twice a day now, and then it's 15 minutes twice a day, then 20 minutes twice a day, and then I take my two walking sticks and I walk in the hallways at the hospital with my walking sticks. And of course my partners are like, oh my God, they're so amazed. And then I'm walking with one walking stick and then with none.
0:07:33 - Amy Myers
And so at this point, you had changed your diet.
0:07:36 - Terry Wahls
Right. So I had been basically following the AIP diet for four years and I continued to go downhill.
0:07:43 - Amy Myers
Okay, and so what was this change in diet?
0:07:47 - Terry Wahls
Well, this change was much more focused on what to eat as opposed to what to not eat. Got it? I'd already been meticulously about what to not eat for years, but now it's much more focused on more greens, more organ meat. I added more seaweed, more vegetables, more mushrooms, more nutritional yeast, a lot more fermented foods, and what is remarkable is the speed at which these changes happened to me.
So from December to May, I go for being unable to sit up to walking the neighborhood. You know it's still a half mile. That's a big walk, a huge walk for me. And I told Jackie I want to try riding my bike. And she says well, you know, maybe things keep going well, maybe in the fall and two weeks later, on Mother's Day, I really want to try riding my bike. So we have an emergency family meeting and Jackie tells my son, zach, who's six foot five, a 16. Zach, you run alongside on the left. And she tells Zebby, who's 13, you run alongside on the right and she'll follow. And I get on my bike and I bike around the block and that big 16-year-old boy, he's crying. Zebby, my 13-year-old, she's crying.
0:09:15 - Amy Myers
Still very emotional.
0:09:17 - Terry Wahls
Of course, as I relive that moment, I still cry, because when you have progressive MS, you let go of the future. You take each day as it unfolds, and I had let go of my future. It wasn't until I had got on my bike that it was like how much recovery might be possible, and so every day I biked a little bit more. And then in October Jackie comes home and says honey, I signed us up for the courage ride. It's 18.5 miles. However far you go, it will be great. And I cross that finish line. And of course we're all crying again. My kids are crying, Jackie's crying, I'm crying, and this fundamentally changes how I think about disease and health. It will change how I practice medicine. It will change the focus of my research and I've made it my mission now to teach other clinicians and to teach the public that there is a whole lot we can do, Even when your physicians say there's nothing more that I've got to offer you?
0:10:21 - Amy Myers
And what did your physicians say? Did they think that? The medicine had suddenly spontaneously started to work. Were they interested in diet?
0:10:31 - Terry Wahls
My neurologist was amazed. He was thrilled when I walked in. We got an MRI and he's like, well, nothing's changed. That's super interesting. But of course these are all old lesions. You've not had a new lesion in a very long time but clearly your brain has rewired itself. Your spinal cord has rewired itself. We would ultimately start doing clinical trials. He joined me on my clinical trials. My chief of staff, ulthoy, became a huge champion and supported my doing a clinical trial testing my protocol in others with secondary and primary progressive MS.
0:11:13 - Amy Myers
Well, I mean as a physician and also a person who has suffered from MS, that's auto-immunity, not MS. I don't have MS, knock on wood. I find that pretty incredible that you have been able to sway others and get support of your own doctor, because when I was in practice, the number of people as I'm sure you have witnessed yourself that do your program, do my program, their auto-immunity reverses and they're just poo-pooed by their regular doctor.
0:11:43 - Terry Wahls
What really helped. My chief of medicine at the university was a rheumatologist. He had called Nia and said you know, terry, I want you to start to do a safety feasibility study. He called John, my chief of staff. They spoke and they were supportive. So we did that first trial and we kept doing little pilot studies, publishing them, and every year there is the Internal Medicine Research Day and on the Harvard College of Medicine Research Day we'd present our research, have our posters, and then I started presenting our data to neurology and to various departments around the university.
0:12:23 - Amy Myers
And I am so fascinated to hear about your research because I know you're doing such exciting work Before we get there. Can we just? I mean you frankly have just described MS, but can you tell the listeners who might be new to it what exactly is MS?
0:12:38 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, so it's a combination of degeneration and inflammation and the first drugs were all about the inflammation and turning off our immune system, because there's evidence that the immune cells are attacking the myelin, leading to relapses, that is, acute worsening of MS, sensory or motor symptoms that slowly improve and then beginning around age 40, when our immune systems began to decline and we began to age and fall apart, as aging it all begins around age 40, then we go from having relapses to not having relapses and just having this slow, steady decline and you enter the progressive phase of the illness.
So I was diagnosed at age 45, and basically I had perhaps two relapses the whole time. Otherwise I had this slow, relentless decline and most people will stop having relapses sometime between age 45 and 55 and just have this slow decline more anxiety, more depression, more brain fog, more fatigue, more difficulty walking, more difficulty using their hands. We have great drugs that turn off the relapses, that turn off the new enhancing lesions. All these great drugs cannot stop the decline. They pushed it a little five years further into the future. So instead of 40 to 50, it's 45 to 55 that most people end up in the secondary, progressive phase of the illness.
0:14:21 - Amy Myers
In your experience and working with many patients, do you believe that this purely is genetic? Do you believe you know what? So let me comment on that.
0:14:32 - Terry Wahls
So you have to have genes that put you at risk for probably 200 to 300 different genes and it's slightly different genes whether you're talking Hashimoto's or Lupus or IA, inflammatory bowel disease or MS. The vast majority of people with those genes don't get the particular autoimmune disease in question. So you have the genes. Next thing that happens is you have an infection. We've all heard a lot about Epstein-Barr, but there are 15 other viruses and bacteria that increase the risk for an autoimmune process. And then these environmental factors, and we know these.
In fact, and this is where my conventional colleagues will say well, we don't know what the environmental factors are, so just take the drugs. Take the drugs, you and I would say well, but we know the environmental factors associated with health and disease. So we're going to help you address all those environmental factors and shift them towards a more health-promoting state and away from disease-promoting state. So we're talking about nutrition, talking about stress management, talking about exercise, about social connections, purpose, and then, according to the resources, I may investigate nutrient levels, toxin exposures, hormonal balance, and I'll optimize all those factors. Now what is super interesting, amy, is that in our clinical trials we can show that 70% of people have meaningful reduction fatigue, improved in quality of life just by addressing their diet.
In my therapeutic lifestyle clinic at the VA we could get 80% of folks with just really basic primary care labs that we could do in the VA system. In dealing with modifiable lifestyle factors In my private practice and I'm sure that this would be the same for you is when I can investigate more thoroughly and optimize all the factors more thoroughly. We have a remarkable success rate and the earlier that you come work with us, the easier it is. When you wait late into your disease with advanced disability I can still make a big difference.
0:16:53 - Amy Myers
It's going to take a lot more work to get functional recovery and when you're doing nutritional interventions, obviously I assume you're working towards the mitochondria and supporting them, as you said that you did for yourself with the organ meats and the greens and things like that, but are you still also focused on eliminating foods? Do you see the connection, such as gluten or dairy, as being? A big trigger foods.
0:17:19 - Terry Wahls
So for the vast majority of folks, gluten and dairy are big problems and, depending on other comorbid issues, we might be restricting nightshades, legumes and grains. And I also have to have a conversation what the family can do because diet as a family intervention will be successful. Diet as a single intervention while I'm watching the family continue to eat the standard American diet is going to be a failure, absolutely. So we have a big conversation what support looks like, what we can negotiate as a family to add, what we can negotiate as a family to eliminate from the eating environment of the patient. Now that may mean that the adolescent children, when they go to school with their friends, they're going to eat what they want, and the spouse, when they are not in the eating environment of the patient, they eat what they want. They don't come home and talk about it. They don't come home and say, oh my God, that pizza and beer was so good Right.
0:18:28 - Amy Myers
So I have two quick questions for you. Do you have MS patients, that I mean they may eat gluten because they want to, but do you have any that you don't recommend getting off gluten? Or is that a unit, I mean for me? If you have an autoimmune condition, I say absolutely.
I don't eat gluten. No, yeah, right, and then you brought up children. So I'm kind of curious of your perspective. If the mother per se or we could even equate it maybe to your own family you have two children, if the mother or father has an autoimmune condition, ms, do you recommend that the children I hear at home to help support the family member? They want to be gluten-free, dairy-free, but do you recommend, in order to potentially prevent any autoimmune condition or MS from coming out, to be gluten-free?
0:19:16 - Terry Wahls
Well, so that's a super interesting question. My preference will be that the whole household be gluten-free, and then we have a conversation about dairy and the cross-reaction between gluten and dairy. And if they are going to have dairy, then we'll talk about goat and sheep camel dairy. But part of the problem is this cross-reactivity in these dairy proteins have molecular mimicry with human brain proteins, and so I recommend when we we and our children it's certainly when growth plates fuse to have other sources for your calcium and your protein.
0:19:58 - Amy Myers
And of course, no, it molecular mimicry is, but could you explain that to our listeners? Oh, yeah, yeah.
0:20:04 - Terry Wahls
So our immune cells recommend the sequences of amino acids. That's the smallest subunit of a protein, and if you have a same amino acid sequence in gluten and in the dairy protein casein, your body will react to both compounds, and we know it. The casein that is the dairy amino acid sequence has similar sequences to brain structures in the cerebellum, and so that has a big impact on balance and on motor function. It also has impact on mood regulation. So for, for that reason, people with autoimmunity and a neurologic or psychiatric symptom, I really want them to be dairy free.
0:20:59 - Amy Myers
Yes, the non-negotiables for me as a person with a history of autoimmunity, and also what I recommend to my patients, are no gluten, no dairy, never. So I'm kind of curious for you. Our programs are very similar in terms of what to take away, and I write about the autoimmune spectrum, meaning that when you're high up on this spectrum, your markers are elevated, your symptoms are flaring. You absolutely want to be doing the diet to a T and as you are able to reduce those, your symptoms are going away. Your antibodies are going away. You might be able to branch out, not to gluten or dairy, but maybe to some grains, legumes on occasion, a gluten free, dairy free cupcake at your birthday. What is your philosophy on that? Is it rigid, no matter what? Is there flexibility?
0:21:52 - Terry Wahls
First we have to get you to fully recover. We want to have whatever the markers are for your autoimmune disease go away and so that if you have titers autoantibody titers that's easier to follow MS, no lesions, you know, relapses doing well and then we can begin. Then I go through a period of training them on their subtle symptoms so they can be aware of that they're having a subtle indication of more disease activity. I am like, okay, I liberalized my diet and my vision is not as good. My tremor is back, I'm stumbling again, I'm having that MS hug, that painful torso pain.
That's a signal that your food triggers or maybe toxin exposures there was wildfire in your area or the financial strain that's happening in your household, or the spouse who's drinking is becoming a problem again that so it's not just food triggers but there may be other triggers. So ideally I want to have people have their diet as liberalized as we can so it's to the least restrictive. But I want them to be trained so that they can monitor their symptoms to know. I also have find that some folks are like I feel so good, I'm not at all interested in bringing these foods back. I like my diet. We have plenty of variety. I'm very happy and we have some folks who end up on a ketogenic diet. They're very happy on a ketogenic diet and they're not at all interested in liberalizing. So it depends on the person, depends on the family ideally the least restrictive diet and the diet that the family can sustain.
0:23:50 - Amy Myers
And I've shared many a meal with you and been in other countries with you, and you post a lot about the delicious meals that you're making at home. What does Dr Terry Walls have to celebrate her birthday? Well, liver and onions Okay Of course All right, so you stick to it even on your birthday, not even a almond flour cupcake.
0:24:13 - Terry Wahls
Nope, not at all. Not at all, never. And there are so many really tasty, delicious, keto friendly, paleo friendly foods, but they're mostly processed foods. I would rather people eat protein, you know meat, fish, poultry, vegetables, sauerkraut, kimchi, some heart or I mean heart is so delicious, tongue is so delicious, liver, prepared correctly, is so delicious, and my family knows that liver and onions is one of my favorite meals, and so they will make that for me on my birthday.
0:24:53 - Amy Myers
That's wonderful. Where do you get clean sources? Do you have a local farmer you work with, or so?
0:25:01 - Terry Wahls
I'm a farm kid and so I really like being able to buy my meat from local farmers. There's a farmer, a bison farmer, from western Iowa. He drives over with his van and so we'll get a half bison, which just takes us a while to eat a whole bison, and so we'll do that. It will get poultry again from local farmers, and I realize that not everyone can do that. And I also want to make the observation that when I was still at the VA still seeing patients, and the VA had pulled me out of primary care, we had created the 30 People Lifestyle Clinic and we were seeing the sickest people really, because I'd gone to the pain clinic, specialty medicine, and I'd said give me your sickest people that you can't seem to help and I'll take care of them, but I'm not going to be using drugs, the skull is going to be dying in lifestyle. And we had remarkable success.
So these veterans were living in rural Iowa, rural Missouri, rural Illinois, shopping in these small grocery stores or small convenience stores. They weren't getting organic foods. They were beginning to grow their own gardens and get venison from their friends who were still hunting, and they had remarkable success. So, yes, organic is ideal, grass fed is ideal, but just do the best that you can given your economic reality. Quit buying processed foods. Start buying these radical things our grandmother's new as cabbages, onions, dried mushrooms, meats. If you're here in the Midwest there are too many deer everywhere and there are a lot of folks who are hunters you can get venison pretty easily. It becomes much more affordable than you realize.
0:26:55 - Amy Myers
Excellent advice. Well, let's switch over to your research now. I know that you have a clinical trial going on, or one that's been going on. You want to tell us about that please?
0:27:05 - Terry Wahls
So before I do, I'm going to mention one state that just came out a quasi-experimental study newly diagnosed MS patients who declined disease modifying treatments that were trained on basically the modified paleo diet or the wall's paleo diet, a 4-7-8 breathing and a walking program, and the comparison group, where people newly diagnosed with MS who were taking disease modifying treatments and could eat what they wanted, and we compared the outcomes for those two groups. We started our enrollment March 2020, which, as you would all remember, is when the pandemic started and we had to convert the study into a virtual only study with only patient-reported outcomes. The patient-reported outcomes between the two groups were statistically equivalent. Then there's another technique called a non-inferiority analysis, to see, was the health behavior's arm not worse than the DMT arm? And the answer is it wasn't. For fatigue measures, for anxiety, for depression, for quality of life and for mental clarity as measured by perceived deficits. So super exciting. I wish we could have had our brain MRIs. That would have been even better, but God intervened so we weren't able to get those.
0:28:32 - Amy Myers
And how many people. Excellent Congratulations.
0:28:35 - Terry Wahls
We had 29 in health behaviors, 15 in the control arm Awesome.
0:28:40 - Amy Myers
So will you continue to follow them.
0:28:42 - Terry Wahls
We will follow them for another three years, and so it'll be about three years before I'll be able to report out what we're going to see on that Now. The study that we are recruiting for now is a study for people with relapsing, remitting multiple sclerosis between the ages of 18 and 70 who are willing to come to Iowa City at month zero, month three, month 24,. We're comparing a ketogenic diet, a modified paleo diet and usual diet. If you're already on a therapeutic diet, as long as you're willing to be randomized to one of these three diets, we can have you in the study. So if you're already on a ketogenic diet, you can still screen and be in the study. You just have to be willing that if you're randomized to the paleo diet, you won't fact change, switch from the ketogenic diet to the paleo diet. And if you're on a Mediterranean diet, you're willing to say you know what, if I get randomized to keto or paleo, I will abandon the Mediterranean diet and I'll get trained in the diet which I've been assigned, and that's what I'll do.
You can learn more about this terrewallscom forward slash. Ms study. Please screen and we will ask give us your name and contact information. You'll be able to say that you want to be part of our database for other studies, because we do studies that are survey based, only that don't require to travel. So I want everyone to screen so you can be in the database for future studies and then hopefully you'd also be willing to come get randomized and be part of our clinical trial.
0:30:23 - Amy Myers
Now, can any of these people be on prescription medications for oh yeah?
0:30:28 - Terry Wahls
So, and if you're on a DMT and in fact I would say about three fourths of the folks in our study are on a DMT we want you to stay on your DMT. And if your medical team says, for whatever reason, I want to change you from DMT a to DMT b, we want you to follow your neurologist advice and go ahead and make that change. And if during the study you come in and you're not on a DMT and you decide, for whatever reason, that you want to start a DMT while you're in the study, yes, you can do that as well.
0:31:03 - Amy Myers
Okay, and now Dairy. Where do you get your funding for these studies?
0:31:08 - Terry Wahls
Well, so the funding for this study is from a private grateful patient and a fund from her and their family foundation. So we are very grateful. We have had the MS society funds some of our trials. We've had non-profit from Canada fund several of our trials and we've had grateful patients and we've had people contacting us making small, $5 donations, $100 donations. So we do have links. If you go to terrewallscom, if you believe in what I'm doing, we'd love to have you support our trials.
0:31:47 - Amy Myers
Are you a non-profit or classified? Do people who make these donations get a tax?
0:31:53 - Terry Wahls
deduction. Yes, in fact, the University of Iowa has the Dr Terry Walls Research Fund, which is a non-profit, and so there's a link terrewallscom. When you go to about the research so you can donate there in the university, it will give you the charitable contribution forms.
0:32:12 - Amy Myers
So why do you think that there are not more studies on using food and many studies that you know, I'm sure you're aware of, for MS and all diseases are drug-based?
0:32:24 - Terry Wahls
The good news is we are slowly getting more studies about food. Food studies are much harder than drug studies, because a drug guide was going to get you to come in, take the infusion or the pill and you won't know if you're on the active or the placebo. If you're on a food study, you'll know what you're eating. You're going to know that you're in the intervention arm or you're in the control arm and we're going to have you change what you're eating, give up foods that are familiar, learn new foods that's it's a very big ask. So they're more expensive and they're much harder to conduct.
0:32:59 - Amy Myers
Have you seen? There's a documentary out now. It's involving. What is the name of it? I can't, it's escaped me at this moment. It's about a number it's, I think, 26 identical twins and they put them on a vegan diet versus more of a Mediterranean diet and then track them through dexa scans weight, cardiovascular risks. It's on Netflix right now. It's escaping me.
0:33:26 - Terry Wahls
Oh, they took that out.
0:33:27 - Amy Myers
Well, it's really. It's quite interesting because at the end they go over, they bring them back and same thing. They had to be randomized and you know, some of them were already vegan and they had to move to the meat. It was kind of interesting and in the first couple of weeks they actually sent them food, then they taught them how to cook and then they were completely on their own. The interesting thing is that well, not probably to you and me interesting, but both of arms lost weight, but the vegans lost most of their weight in their muscle. They lost it as their muscles.
They were not getting enough protein. But then the end of the documentary goes on to sort of promote a vegan diet by saying their cardiovascular risks were lower. There are various other things that's really mostly focused on. Cardiovascular risks were lower with this vegan diet, and so even though the siblings that were in the Mediterranean diet were then now saying, oh, I might want to become a vegan now, and I was thinking to myself, well, 10 minutes ago in the documentary we just discussed how the vegan lost four pounds, but three of it was muscle breakdown, so it was kind of a little long-term pretty negative consequence.
They didn't quite bring that into the conclusion, which was kind of interesting.
0:34:46 - Terry Wahls
Interesting.
0:34:46 - Amy Myers
Yeah. So what about the conflicts of interest that happen these days with yeah no-transcript.
0:34:54 - Terry Wahls
There's a conflict of interest committee here at the university. So every time we do a research we have to disclose is there a potential conflict of interest? They perceive conflict of interest, which I do. Then I have to fill out a form which explains why I would do the research, how we control for that. Then the committee has they discuss, impose a plan. I have to sign off on it, my department chair signs off on it, and we do that for drug devices. And then we do it because I've written books.
0:35:25 - Amy Myers
Right, Well, tell me so. We've been spending a lot of time on food and clearly that is a huge portion, as we both know, of root cause for autoimmunity. But what are some things someone newly diagnosed with MS? They're going to go on the Walls protocol diet. What else can they do? I mean, I know some of the things that you do. I've introduced you to Garrett with the new fit you have. I see you on Instagram and things in your endless pool. What are some other things besides diet that those with MS can do to keep muscle, gain muscle?
0:36:05 - Terry Wahls
I think strength training is super helpful. You want to have plenty of muscle. A aerobic exercise is good, Balance training super helpful, and so I do balance training every day after my shower. Meditation, mindfulness time and nature connection. Do you have friends? Do you have a spiritual practice or religious practice? How often are you just sitting outside? So there are many different facets of self care, of wellness care. You don't have to do all of it every day, but I encourage you to begin exploring what you could begin adding.
0:36:49 - Amy Myers
And I'm sure no. Two days are always alike, but what is a typical day for you?
0:36:54 - Terry Wahls
So this morning I was up at 530, I meditate. Then I came in, I did a strength training session and I did it with blood flow restriction bands. So when I add those, like oh my God, that really adds to the intensity of it. And then I go do a red light sauna and I'm taking my dog in my sauna with me, so my dogs enjoying the sauna. Then I go out in the snow after the sauna for a little cold therapy. Then I come back and do my cold shower and then I start my day doing work.
Today is about 8.25. So that was about a three hour morning ritual of self care. Of course now everyone is listening like oh my God, I could possibly spend three hours of self care. I assure you, I didn't do the beginning either. You just gradually figure out what you could begin adding and fitting into your day. And I don't always do a three hour routine. Some days, you know, I sleep until 730 and maybe only do a half hour sauna and I'm just going to do some walks during the day. So it fluctuates day to day. I also have not eaten. I did a protein smoothie after my strength training. I've not eaten yet. I'll have a big chicken salad and a bunch of a sauerkraut tonight for supper and then my daughter and I are going to play a Sherlock board game that usually will take us about another two hours tonight A lot of problem solving. That's a very interesting game that we both enjoy.
0:38:32 - Amy Myers
So you have some social bonding, problem solving, so it's a great cognitive stressor and lots of fun and when you're traveling or you have a really busy day, do you have some non-negotiables, and what are they? Is it always meditation? Is it always a walk? What are the non-negotiables for you?
0:38:53 - Terry Wahls
I have to have some physical activity. So at the very least, I'm going to do my balance training Like that. Particularly when you're in the second over the age of 50 for MS, balance training is so powerful and it doesn't take much time to do, and so I like to do that, and I really like to wind down and have a gratitude practice to fall asleep by Awesome, I suppose the other thing is I have to be so careful about what I eat. If I have any gluten, dairy or eggs that will trigger my face pain, oh wow. And so trigeminal neuralgia is so brutal it is, and like I am just so careful about what I'm eating and if there's concern I will fast, I'll just have tea.
0:39:43 - Amy Myers
Eat. On a different note just the trigeminal neuralgia made me think of it is have you seen an uptick in symptoms or flares? Perhaps is a better word for those with MS after having COVID or having the vaccine? Absolutely yeah, because I have a friend who has MS and he was had big flares after having it and then mentioned and it takes it longer to clear.
0:40:10 - Terry Wahls
So you get a flare that's a pseudo wraps and then it will take many months to get back to baseline. And we know long COVID is really autoimmune processes that are increased, you know I should mention that we have a long COVID study. So if there are people listening who have long COVID, please email us at aimed hyphen studies at you, Iowa dot edu, and we can get you the link to screen for that so yeah, please do, and we'll get that in the show notes as well.
0:40:41 - Amy Myers
I hadn't heard you mention in your arsenal of things that you use personally hyperbaric oxygen. I've personally found that very helpful for myself with autoimmunity. Many people in my clinic and then when I had COVID I was having severe fatigue A few weeks later and concerned I might get long COVID. So I hopped in the hyperbaric section and in a couple sessions it was gone.
0:41:08 - Terry Wahls
I have not had any personal experience with hyperbaric. It's certainly without junk. I had COVID too, as I had gone to a scientific conference in Las Vegas and came back and had COVID a few days later and it took me a couple weeks to recover from that and I was like okay, well, if things don't get quickly resolved here, I'll be checking out the hyperbaric.
0:41:32 - Amy Myers
Unfortunately, I'm back strength training and doing my aerobic trial I mean anecdotally for me, and then I've passed it on to others had similar successes. So it may be something for your trial that y'all may want to look into. I'm fortunate I have one at my house.
0:41:47 - Terry Wahls
It would have to be a new trial. Okay, oh yeah, you're already, of course, of course.
0:41:51 - Amy Myers
We can't add it to the crew, right, of course. Well, what do you see on the horizon? Are there new drugs following your programming?
0:42:01 - Terry Wahls
There are millions, are actually probably billions of dollars being spent on remyelination drugs which were great in mice and in rats and have either no effect or tiny tiny effect in humans, and so, as a result, we ended up making a remyelination course for my people and a restoring function course. That's been super helpful to help people understand that we know a lot about why my own repair fails. We have learned a lot through the mouse models and then, using my functional medicine perspective, I'm like okay, so we can use all of that. And now here are my thoughts on how you better improve your ability to repair your my own and that's been very helpful. In fact, I'm talking with my team about what we might do next with that to make that course more widely available Awesome.
0:43:06 - Amy Myers
And yeah, I just have to tell you I was well. First I was thinking about Christina Applegate, I mean, because there's all this news, I think the Golden Globes and maybe she was there. Has anybody from her team reached out? She needs to know you.
0:43:19 - Terry Wahls
Oh, I know, and we have many well known actors and actresses that have MS who sort of reach out to us and we're happy to chat with them and with the round is behavior change is hard and without the support of the family and the medical team they're like easier to just take the DMTs and accept the limitations.
0:43:47 - Amy Myers
I was traveling on a plane not too long ago and the woman was one seat over from me and her bag fell and it was all these prescriptions and she brought up that she had MS and I so, of course, mentioned you and mentioned my book. And you can just see the glazing over when she's like, oh, is she something? And I say, oh, no, it's really a diet and lifestyle intervention. And then she just completely was doing anything she could to just kind of shift over, get away from me like not interested, Meanwhile dumping over her bag full of orange brown prescription bottles.
0:44:25 - Terry Wahls
In. What is really hard is if the spouse really wants to embrace all that. The patient doesn't want to. So the spouse reaches out to me and I'm like the best thing you could do is you yourself could embrace the diet and lifestyle and let them see how easy it could happen to see the transformation in your life and let them be curious. And then they may embrace it or they may not. But you can't control them. You can only control your own actions.
0:44:58 - Amy Myers
Yeah, it's very difficult seeing a loved one make a different choice than you would make, and I remember when I was practicing, a lot of people saying, oh, I have to give this up or I have to give that up. But when you feel so much better it's not even giving it up. You enjoy it and you feel better and that way outweighs that. Or you could be on drugs that my father. I was able to help him. He had polyomyositis and I was able to get him off all of his drugs and he was on cells up and methotrexate and all of it and then he had a flare and I was dealing with the toxic mold exposure and he went back on his drugs and within six months he was in the hospital with sepsis and the ICU and, you know, eventually passed away. So it's like either you can take these dietary lifestyle interventions that for many, many, many people work or these drugs that leave you open to exposure.
0:45:53 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, and also lead to accelerated aging. The autoimmune diseases is part of accelerated aging certainly MS, that accelerates aging. And then you take the DMTs, which accelerates aging a little further, or you embrace the diet and lifestyle changes that are associated with accelerated health. And what we saw at the VA, I see in my clinics and we see in our clinical trials, is people come in and they look younger and younger. And so now we are saying be sure you take a photo of yourself and do a little video of your hopes and dreams right now, because we predict that you will see in the next year a much younger person looking back at you.
0:46:44 - Amy Myers
Awesome. Well, before we part, I like to ask guests what are three things that you can recommend to our listeners right now that they can do tomorrow to take back their health?
0:46:57 - Terry Wahls
Well, one is follow me on Instagram to get to see what I'm eating and doing. That is super fun.
0:47:03 - Amy Myers
Definitely make liver look good.
0:47:05 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, liver can be so yummy. Know your why? If your home was being to have smoke roll out of the windows, who or what would you rush into the house to save? Because it creating new habits, new diet and lifestyle does take some effort. And if you know you're doing this because you want to be there more effectively for your children or your grandchildren or your spouse, it's a whole lot easier when you have that mental clarity. And then I invite you, before as you fall asleep at night, visualize someone or a place for which you are grateful, so you can fall asleep to some gratitude in your heart.
0:47:49 - Amy Myers
Those are excellent, easy, free suggestions. I appreciate it and go sit outside.
0:47:57 - Terry Wahls
Yes, yes, ideally take a walk, but at the very least, you know just, please, just sit on your deck, sit on the sidewalk or sit in a chair next to the sidewalk. Be outside.
0:48:11 - Amy Myers
Well, excellent. Thank you very much, Dr Terry walls. We will have all your information in the show notes, but if you would like to share how people can find you and follow you, we welcome.
0:48:22 - Terry Wahls
So my webpage ter wallscom. If you go to ter wallscom forward slash m s study, you can screen for the study ter wallscom forward slash diet. You'll get a cheat sheet. My Instagram is Dr D R Terry walls. T E R R Y walls. W A H L S.
0:48:42 - Amy Myers
Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much, and I hope that our listeners have learned something from you today.
0:48:52 - Terry Wahls
Wonderful Thanks, Amy Bye.
0:48:54 - Amy Myers
I want to thank this week's guests for sharing their time and knowledge and thank you for listening. To read the full show notes for each episode, which include a summary, timestamp, quotes and any resources mentioned, please visit Amy Myers MD dot com. Forward slash podcast. Lastly, if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify and we'll select a few to read out loud in a future episode. Tune in next week to hear from another inspiring guest as we help you take back your health.
We have a remarkable success rate and the earlier that Before we get into this week's interview, just a quick reminder that we've created a special offer specifically for listeners of this show, on your very first purchase of any of my products on amymayersmdcom. Simply enter promo code takeback15 at checkout and you'll receive a 15% discount on your first AMMD purchase. That's promo code takeback15 at amymayersmdcom. All right? Well, everybody, we have Dr Terry Walls here. Terry Walls and I go way back. I think our books came out about the same time. We've been to many a conference together and had many a meal together, so I'm very excited to have you as a guest on Take Back your Health podcast.
0:01:40 - Terry Wahls
Hey, thank you for having me.
0:01:42 - Amy Myers
Well, I know your story, but for the listeners who are new to our podcast and may not know of you, could you kind of tell us first your background, but also your personal story? You have a personal story with MS and we'd love to hear it.
0:01:57 - Terry Wahls
So I'm an internal medicine doc. I was here at the University of Iowa with the Iowa City of VA and I had developed weakness in my left leg, so drag it, get home. Then I see the neurologist who does the exam and says you know, terry, this could be bad or really really bad. And so for the next three weeks I'm going through my workup and I'm thinking about the fact I've already had 20 years of worsening electrical face pain due to trigeminal neuralgia, and so actually I'm praying for a rapidly fatal diagnosis because I don't want to become disabled. Three weeks later I get the spinal tap and the conclusion is I have relapsing, remitting multiple sclerosis. I do my research, I find the best MS center in the country, I see the best physician, I take the newest drugs. Three years later I hear tilt recline wheelchair and I take mitosantro in a form of chemotherapy. That does not help. Then I take tizabri, the new biologic, that does not help, and then I'm switched to cell sept. And then I ask myself a really big question Am I doing all that I can? And I go back to reading the basic science and I start developed a theory that mitochondrial dysfunction is what strives disability and I start taking a supplement cocktail that to support my mitochondria, and it helps, you know a little bit. I'm super grateful, but I'm still declining. Then I'm called into my chief of staff's office and he tells me he's going to reassign me to the traumatic brain injury clinic come January, six months in the future. Describes the job and I know I'm not going to be able to do that job. So I'm upset but like, okay, that's what that's going to be. Then I discover a study using electrical stimulation of muscles and convinced my physical therapist to give me a test session. It hurts really bad, but then I feel great and he says we add the electrical stimulation to my physical therapy. And I do that every day. And then two weeks later I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine and they have a course in neuroprotection. I take their course, I have a longer list of supplements and then I have a really big aha. Amy and I laugh at how long it took to have this. I'd already adopted the paleo diet for five years, but what if I redesigned my paleo diet based on the supplements that I'm taking and where those ingredients are in the food supply? And so that's more research.
And in December of 07, I start this new diet and for you all the listeners, I want you to know how disabled I am. At that point I cannot sit up, but it's been years since I could sit up. I'm in a zero gravity chair with my knees higher than my nose. That's how I staff clinics but with the residents. That's how I take my meals at home. I can't go out to restaurants, I can't go to movies, and we basically drive to Wisconsin with me laying horizontal in the car. I'm beginning to have brain fog and my trigeminal neuralgia is relentlessly more difficult. So I clearly understand that I'm on track to become bedridden by my illness, probably demented by my illness, and probably have my trigeminal neuralgia turned permanently on, such that light sound, even when it's on moving my tongue, triggers the pain. So I'm dueling and I'm unable to communicate.
0:05:20 - Amy Myers
And let me just you mentioned the year. Do you mind sharing how old you were at this point 52. 52. So I mean very young Prime of your life, frankly.
0:05:30 - Terry Wahls
Prime of my life. I'm diagnosed when I'm 45. I'm in the wheelchair when I'm 48. When I'm 52, it's clear I'm going to be forced into medical treatment. I'm clearly going to be a burden for my family. It's a very grim future.
0:05:48 - Amy Myers
And you're still on how many drugs at this point.
0:05:51 - Terry Wahls
Well, you know, I'm taking Maximum Dose Gevapentin, backlipin. I'm taking Celsept, which is a transplant drug. I failed my disantrone, I failed tizabri.
0:06:03 - Amy Myers
And then you have this cocktail as well. Do you mind sharing the cocktail at the time that you're taking for your mitochondria?
0:06:11 - Terry Wahls
I was taking B vitamins, creatine, carnitine, lipoic acid, coenzyme Q, and I was also taking magnesium, zinc and, of course, omega-3s. And the other January comes I have to start this new clinic, the traumatic ranger clinic. The first two weeks I'm just going to watch for my Tilt-Weak Lenghthule chair. And then the third week comes and when I get home on Monday I tell Jack you know, that wasn't too bad. And then I also say I'd like to try sitting at the table in a regular chair. So we take away my zero gravity chair and we bring my regular chair and I have supper with my family. Wow, first time in years.
And then at the end of the week, on Friday, I tell Jack I think I can do this. This wasn't too bad. And my physical therapist says Terry, you are definitely getting stronger. I want you to do your exercises 10 minutes twice a day now, and then it's 15 minutes twice a day, then 20 minutes twice a day, and then I take my two walking sticks and I walk in the hallways at the hospital with my walking sticks. And of course my partners are like, oh my God, they're so amazed. And then I'm walking with one walking stick and then with none.
0:07:33 - Amy Myers
And so at this point, you had changed your diet.
0:07:36 - Terry Wahls
Right. So I had been basically following the AIP diet for four years and I continued to go downhill.
0:07:43 - Amy Myers
Okay, and so what was this change in diet?
0:07:47 - Terry Wahls
Well, this change was much more focused on what to eat as opposed to what to not eat. Got it? I'd already been meticulously about what to not eat for years, but now it's much more focused on more greens, more organ meat. I added more seaweed, more vegetables, more mushrooms, more nutritional yeast, a lot more fermented foods, and what is remarkable is the speed at which these changes happened to me.
So from December to May, I go for being unable to sit up to walking the neighborhood. You know it's still a half mile. That's a big walk, a huge walk for me. And I told Jackie I want to try riding my bike. And she says well, you know, maybe things keep going well, maybe in the fall and two weeks later, on Mother's Day, I really want to try riding my bike. So we have an emergency family meeting and Jackie tells my son, zach, who's six foot five, a 16. Zach, you run alongside on the left. And she tells Zebby, who's 13, you run alongside on the right and she'll follow. And I get on my bike and I bike around the block and that big 16-year-old boy, he's crying. Zebby, my 13-year-old, she's crying.
0:09:15 - Amy Myers
Still very emotional.
0:09:17 - Terry Wahls
Of course, as I relive that moment, I still cry, because when you have progressive MS, you let go of the future. You take each day as it unfolds, and I had let go of my future. It wasn't until I had got on my bike that it was like how much recovery might be possible, and so every day I biked a little bit more. And then in October Jackie comes home and says honey, I signed us up for the courage ride. It's 18.5 miles. However far you go, it will be great. And I cross that finish line. And of course we're all crying again. My kids are crying, Jackie's crying, I'm crying, and this fundamentally changes how I think about disease and health. It will change how I practice medicine. It will change the focus of my research and I've made it my mission now to teach other clinicians and to teach the public that there is a whole lot we can do, Even when your physicians say there's nothing more that I've got to offer you?
0:10:21 - Amy Myers
And what did your physicians say? Did they think that? The medicine had suddenly spontaneously started to work. Were they interested in diet?
0:10:31 - Terry Wahls
My neurologist was amazed. He was thrilled when I walked in. We got an MRI and he's like, well, nothing's changed. That's super interesting. But of course these are all old lesions. You've not had a new lesion in a very long time but clearly your brain has rewired itself. Your spinal cord has rewired itself. We would ultimately start doing clinical trials. He joined me on my clinical trials. My chief of staff, ulthoy, became a huge champion and supported my doing a clinical trial testing my protocol in others with secondary and primary progressive MS.
0:11:13 - Amy Myers
Well, I mean as a physician and also a person who has suffered from MS, that's auto-immunity, not MS. I don't have MS, knock on wood. I find that pretty incredible that you have been able to sway others and get support of your own doctor, because when I was in practice, the number of people as I'm sure you have witnessed yourself that do your program, do my program, their auto-immunity reverses and they're just poo-pooed by their regular doctor.
0:11:43 - Terry Wahls
What really helped. My chief of medicine at the university was a rheumatologist. He had called Nia and said you know, terry, I want you to start to do a safety feasibility study. He called John, my chief of staff. They spoke and they were supportive. So we did that first trial and we kept doing little pilot studies, publishing them, and every year there is the Internal Medicine Research Day and on the Harvard College of Medicine Research Day we'd present our research, have our posters, and then I started presenting our data to neurology and to various departments around the university.
0:12:23 - Amy Myers
And I am so fascinated to hear about your research because I know you're doing such exciting work Before we get there. Can we just? I mean you frankly have just described MS, but can you tell the listeners who might be new to it what exactly is MS?
0:12:38 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, so it's a combination of degeneration and inflammation and the first drugs were all about the inflammation and turning off our immune system, because there's evidence that the immune cells are attacking the myelin, leading to relapses, that is, acute worsening of MS, sensory or motor symptoms that slowly improve and then beginning around age 40, when our immune systems began to decline and we began to age and fall apart, as aging it all begins around age 40, then we go from having relapses to not having relapses and just having this slow, steady decline and you enter the progressive phase of the illness.
So I was diagnosed at age 45, and basically I had perhaps two relapses the whole time. Otherwise I had this slow, relentless decline and most people will stop having relapses sometime between age 45 and 55 and just have this slow decline more anxiety, more depression, more brain fog, more fatigue, more difficulty walking, more difficulty using their hands. We have great drugs that turn off the relapses, that turn off the new enhancing lesions. All these great drugs cannot stop the decline. They pushed it a little five years further into the future. So instead of 40 to 50, it's 45 to 55 that most people end up in the secondary, progressive phase of the illness.
0:14:21 - Amy Myers
In your experience and working with many patients, do you believe that this purely is genetic? Do you believe you know what? So let me comment on that.
0:14:32 - Terry Wahls
So you have to have genes that put you at risk for probably 200 to 300 different genes and it's slightly different genes whether you're talking Hashimoto's or Lupus or IA, inflammatory bowel disease or MS. The vast majority of people with those genes don't get the particular autoimmune disease in question. So you have the genes. Next thing that happens is you have an infection. We've all heard a lot about Epstein-Barr, but there are 15 other viruses and bacteria that increase the risk for an autoimmune process. And then these environmental factors, and we know these.
In fact, and this is where my conventional colleagues will say well, we don't know what the environmental factors are, so just take the drugs. Take the drugs, you and I would say well, but we know the environmental factors associated with health and disease. So we're going to help you address all those environmental factors and shift them towards a more health-promoting state and away from disease-promoting state. So we're talking about nutrition, talking about stress management, talking about exercise, about social connections, purpose, and then, according to the resources, I may investigate nutrient levels, toxin exposures, hormonal balance, and I'll optimize all those factors. Now what is super interesting, amy, is that in our clinical trials we can show that 70% of people have meaningful reduction fatigue, improved in quality of life just by addressing their diet.
In my therapeutic lifestyle clinic at the VA we could get 80% of folks with just really basic primary care labs that we could do in the VA system. In dealing with modifiable lifestyle factors In my private practice and I'm sure that this would be the same for you is when I can investigate more thoroughly and optimize all the factors more thoroughly. We have a remarkable success rate and the earlier that you come work with us, the easier it is. When you wait late into your disease with advanced disability I can still make a big difference.
0:16:53 - Amy Myers
It's going to take a lot more work to get functional recovery and when you're doing nutritional interventions, obviously I assume you're working towards the mitochondria and supporting them, as you said that you did for yourself with the organ meats and the greens and things like that, but are you still also focused on eliminating foods? Do you see the connection, such as gluten or dairy, as being? A big trigger foods.
0:17:19 - Terry Wahls
So for the vast majority of folks, gluten and dairy are big problems and, depending on other comorbid issues, we might be restricting nightshades, legumes and grains. And I also have to have a conversation what the family can do because diet as a family intervention will be successful. Diet as a single intervention while I'm watching the family continue to eat the standard American diet is going to be a failure, absolutely. So we have a big conversation what support looks like, what we can negotiate as a family to add, what we can negotiate as a family to eliminate from the eating environment of the patient. Now that may mean that the adolescent children, when they go to school with their friends, they're going to eat what they want, and the spouse, when they are not in the eating environment of the patient, they eat what they want. They don't come home and talk about it. They don't come home and say, oh my God, that pizza and beer was so good Right.
0:18:28 - Amy Myers
So I have two quick questions for you. Do you have MS patients, that I mean they may eat gluten because they want to, but do you have any that you don't recommend getting off gluten? Or is that a unit, I mean for me? If you have an autoimmune condition, I say absolutely.
I don't eat gluten. No, yeah, right, and then you brought up children. So I'm kind of curious of your perspective. If the mother per se or we could even equate it maybe to your own family you have two children, if the mother or father has an autoimmune condition, ms, do you recommend that the children I hear at home to help support the family member? They want to be gluten-free, dairy-free, but do you recommend, in order to potentially prevent any autoimmune condition or MS from coming out, to be gluten-free?
0:19:16 - Terry Wahls
Well, so that's a super interesting question. My preference will be that the whole household be gluten-free, and then we have a conversation about dairy and the cross-reaction between gluten and dairy. And if they are going to have dairy, then we'll talk about goat and sheep camel dairy. But part of the problem is this cross-reactivity in these dairy proteins have molecular mimicry with human brain proteins, and so I recommend when we we and our children it's certainly when growth plates fuse to have other sources for your calcium and your protein.
0:19:58 - Amy Myers
And of course, no, it molecular mimicry is, but could you explain that to our listeners? Oh, yeah, yeah.
0:20:04 - Terry Wahls
So our immune cells recommend the sequences of amino acids. That's the smallest subunit of a protein, and if you have a same amino acid sequence in gluten and in the dairy protein casein, your body will react to both compounds, and we know it. The casein that is the dairy amino acid sequence has similar sequences to brain structures in the cerebellum, and so that has a big impact on balance and on motor function. It also has impact on mood regulation. So for, for that reason, people with autoimmunity and a neurologic or psychiatric symptom, I really want them to be dairy free.
0:20:59 - Amy Myers
Yes, the non-negotiables for me as a person with a history of autoimmunity, and also what I recommend to my patients, are no gluten, no dairy, never. So I'm kind of curious for you. Our programs are very similar in terms of what to take away, and I write about the autoimmune spectrum, meaning that when you're high up on this spectrum, your markers are elevated, your symptoms are flaring. You absolutely want to be doing the diet to a T and as you are able to reduce those, your symptoms are going away. Your antibodies are going away. You might be able to branch out, not to gluten or dairy, but maybe to some grains, legumes on occasion, a gluten free, dairy free cupcake at your birthday. What is your philosophy on that? Is it rigid, no matter what? Is there flexibility?
0:21:52 - Terry Wahls
First we have to get you to fully recover. We want to have whatever the markers are for your autoimmune disease go away and so that if you have titers autoantibody titers that's easier to follow MS, no lesions, you know, relapses doing well and then we can begin. Then I go through a period of training them on their subtle symptoms so they can be aware of that they're having a subtle indication of more disease activity. I am like, okay, I liberalized my diet and my vision is not as good. My tremor is back, I'm stumbling again, I'm having that MS hug, that painful torso pain.
That's a signal that your food triggers or maybe toxin exposures there was wildfire in your area or the financial strain that's happening in your household, or the spouse who's drinking is becoming a problem again that so it's not just food triggers but there may be other triggers. So ideally I want to have people have their diet as liberalized as we can so it's to the least restrictive. But I want them to be trained so that they can monitor their symptoms to know. I also have find that some folks are like I feel so good, I'm not at all interested in bringing these foods back. I like my diet. We have plenty of variety. I'm very happy and we have some folks who end up on a ketogenic diet. They're very happy on a ketogenic diet and they're not at all interested in liberalizing. So it depends on the person, depends on the family ideally the least restrictive diet and the diet that the family can sustain.
0:23:50 - Amy Myers
And I've shared many a meal with you and been in other countries with you, and you post a lot about the delicious meals that you're making at home. What does Dr Terry Walls have to celebrate her birthday? Well, liver and onions Okay Of course All right, so you stick to it even on your birthday, not even a almond flour cupcake.
0:24:13 - Terry Wahls
Nope, not at all. Not at all, never. And there are so many really tasty, delicious, keto friendly, paleo friendly foods, but they're mostly processed foods. I would rather people eat protein, you know meat, fish, poultry, vegetables, sauerkraut, kimchi, some heart or I mean heart is so delicious, tongue is so delicious, liver, prepared correctly, is so delicious, and my family knows that liver and onions is one of my favorite meals, and so they will make that for me on my birthday.
0:24:53 - Amy Myers
That's wonderful. Where do you get clean sources? Do you have a local farmer you work with, or so?
0:25:01 - Terry Wahls
I'm a farm kid and so I really like being able to buy my meat from local farmers. There's a farmer, a bison farmer, from western Iowa. He drives over with his van and so we'll get a half bison, which just takes us a while to eat a whole bison, and so we'll do that. It will get poultry again from local farmers, and I realize that not everyone can do that. And I also want to make the observation that when I was still at the VA still seeing patients, and the VA had pulled me out of primary care, we had created the 30 People Lifestyle Clinic and we were seeing the sickest people really, because I'd gone to the pain clinic, specialty medicine, and I'd said give me your sickest people that you can't seem to help and I'll take care of them, but I'm not going to be using drugs, the skull is going to be dying in lifestyle. And we had remarkable success.
So these veterans were living in rural Iowa, rural Missouri, rural Illinois, shopping in these small grocery stores or small convenience stores. They weren't getting organic foods. They were beginning to grow their own gardens and get venison from their friends who were still hunting, and they had remarkable success. So, yes, organic is ideal, grass fed is ideal, but just do the best that you can given your economic reality. Quit buying processed foods. Start buying these radical things our grandmother's new as cabbages, onions, dried mushrooms, meats. If you're here in the Midwest there are too many deer everywhere and there are a lot of folks who are hunters you can get venison pretty easily. It becomes much more affordable than you realize.
0:26:55 - Amy Myers
Excellent advice. Well, let's switch over to your research now. I know that you have a clinical trial going on, or one that's been going on. You want to tell us about that please?
0:27:05 - Terry Wahls
So before I do, I'm going to mention one state that just came out a quasi-experimental study newly diagnosed MS patients who declined disease modifying treatments that were trained on basically the modified paleo diet or the wall's paleo diet, a 4-7-8 breathing and a walking program, and the comparison group, where people newly diagnosed with MS who were taking disease modifying treatments and could eat what they wanted, and we compared the outcomes for those two groups. We started our enrollment March 2020, which, as you would all remember, is when the pandemic started and we had to convert the study into a virtual only study with only patient-reported outcomes. The patient-reported outcomes between the two groups were statistically equivalent. Then there's another technique called a non-inferiority analysis, to see, was the health behavior's arm not worse than the DMT arm? And the answer is it wasn't. For fatigue measures, for anxiety, for depression, for quality of life and for mental clarity as measured by perceived deficits. So super exciting. I wish we could have had our brain MRIs. That would have been even better, but God intervened so we weren't able to get those.
0:28:32 - Amy Myers
And how many people. Excellent Congratulations.
0:28:35 - Terry Wahls
We had 29 in health behaviors, 15 in the control arm Awesome.
0:28:40 - Amy Myers
So will you continue to follow them.
0:28:42 - Terry Wahls
We will follow them for another three years, and so it'll be about three years before I'll be able to report out what we're going to see on that Now. The study that we are recruiting for now is a study for people with relapsing, remitting multiple sclerosis between the ages of 18 and 70 who are willing to come to Iowa City at month zero, month three, month 24,. We're comparing a ketogenic diet, a modified paleo diet and usual diet. If you're already on a therapeutic diet, as long as you're willing to be randomized to one of these three diets, we can have you in the study. So if you're already on a ketogenic diet, you can still screen and be in the study. You just have to be willing that if you're randomized to the paleo diet, you won't fact change, switch from the ketogenic diet to the paleo diet. And if you're on a Mediterranean diet, you're willing to say you know what, if I get randomized to keto or paleo, I will abandon the Mediterranean diet and I'll get trained in the diet which I've been assigned, and that's what I'll do.
You can learn more about this terrewallscom forward slash. Ms study. Please screen and we will ask give us your name and contact information. You'll be able to say that you want to be part of our database for other studies, because we do studies that are survey based, only that don't require to travel. So I want everyone to screen so you can be in the database for future studies and then hopefully you'd also be willing to come get randomized and be part of our clinical trial.
0:30:23 - Amy Myers
Now, can any of these people be on prescription medications for oh yeah?
0:30:28 - Terry Wahls
So, and if you're on a DMT and in fact I would say about three fourths of the folks in our study are on a DMT we want you to stay on your DMT. And if your medical team says, for whatever reason, I want to change you from DMT a to DMT b, we want you to follow your neurologist advice and go ahead and make that change. And if during the study you come in and you're not on a DMT and you decide, for whatever reason, that you want to start a DMT while you're in the study, yes, you can do that as well.
0:31:03 - Amy Myers
Okay, and now Dairy. Where do you get your funding for these studies?
0:31:08 - Terry Wahls
Well, so the funding for this study is from a private grateful patient and a fund from her and their family foundation. So we are very grateful. We have had the MS society funds some of our trials. We've had non-profit from Canada fund several of our trials and we've had grateful patients and we've had people contacting us making small, $5 donations, $100 donations. So we do have links. If you go to terrewallscom, if you believe in what I'm doing, we'd love to have you support our trials.
0:31:47 - Amy Myers
Are you a non-profit or classified? Do people who make these donations get a tax?
0:31:53 - Terry Wahls
deduction. Yes, in fact, the University of Iowa has the Dr Terry Walls Research Fund, which is a non-profit, and so there's a link terrewallscom. When you go to about the research so you can donate there in the university, it will give you the charitable contribution forms.
0:32:12 - Amy Myers
So why do you think that there are not more studies on using food and many studies that you know, I'm sure you're aware of, for MS and all diseases are drug-based?
0:32:24 - Terry Wahls
The good news is we are slowly getting more studies about food. Food studies are much harder than drug studies, because a drug guide was going to get you to come in, take the infusion or the pill and you won't know if you're on the active or the placebo. If you're on a food study, you'll know what you're eating. You're going to know that you're in the intervention arm or you're in the control arm and we're going to have you change what you're eating, give up foods that are familiar, learn new foods that's it's a very big ask. So they're more expensive and they're much harder to conduct.
0:32:59 - Amy Myers
Have you seen? There's a documentary out now. It's involving. What is the name of it? I can't, it's escaped me at this moment. It's about a number it's, I think, 26 identical twins and they put them on a vegan diet versus more of a Mediterranean diet and then track them through dexa scans weight, cardiovascular risks. It's on Netflix right now. It's escaping me.
0:33:26 - Terry Wahls
Oh, they took that out.
0:33:27 - Amy Myers
Well, it's really. It's quite interesting because at the end they go over, they bring them back and same thing. They had to be randomized and you know, some of them were already vegan and they had to move to the meat. It was kind of interesting and in the first couple of weeks they actually sent them food, then they taught them how to cook and then they were completely on their own. The interesting thing is that well, not probably to you and me interesting, but both of arms lost weight, but the vegans lost most of their weight in their muscle. They lost it as their muscles.
They were not getting enough protein. But then the end of the documentary goes on to sort of promote a vegan diet by saying their cardiovascular risks were lower. There are various other things that's really mostly focused on. Cardiovascular risks were lower with this vegan diet, and so even though the siblings that were in the Mediterranean diet were then now saying, oh, I might want to become a vegan now, and I was thinking to myself, well, 10 minutes ago in the documentary we just discussed how the vegan lost four pounds, but three of it was muscle breakdown, so it was kind of a little long-term pretty negative consequence.
They didn't quite bring that into the conclusion, which was kind of interesting.
0:34:46 - Terry Wahls
Interesting.
0:34:46 - Amy Myers
Yeah. So what about the conflicts of interest that happen these days with yeah no-transcript.
0:34:54 - Terry Wahls
There's a conflict of interest committee here at the university. So every time we do a research we have to disclose is there a potential conflict of interest? They perceive conflict of interest, which I do. Then I have to fill out a form which explains why I would do the research, how we control for that. Then the committee has they discuss, impose a plan. I have to sign off on it, my department chair signs off on it, and we do that for drug devices. And then we do it because I've written books.
0:35:25 - Amy Myers
Right, Well, tell me so. We've been spending a lot of time on food and clearly that is a huge portion, as we both know, of root cause for autoimmunity. But what are some things someone newly diagnosed with MS? They're going to go on the Walls protocol diet. What else can they do? I mean, I know some of the things that you do. I've introduced you to Garrett with the new fit you have. I see you on Instagram and things in your endless pool. What are some other things besides diet that those with MS can do to keep muscle, gain muscle?
0:36:05 - Terry Wahls
I think strength training is super helpful. You want to have plenty of muscle. A aerobic exercise is good, Balance training super helpful, and so I do balance training every day after my shower. Meditation, mindfulness time and nature connection. Do you have friends? Do you have a spiritual practice or religious practice? How often are you just sitting outside? So there are many different facets of self care, of wellness care. You don't have to do all of it every day, but I encourage you to begin exploring what you could begin adding.
0:36:49 - Amy Myers
And I'm sure no. Two days are always alike, but what is a typical day for you?
0:36:54 - Terry Wahls
So this morning I was up at 530, I meditate. Then I came in, I did a strength training session and I did it with blood flow restriction bands. So when I add those, like oh my God, that really adds to the intensity of it. And then I go do a red light sauna and I'm taking my dog in my sauna with me, so my dogs enjoying the sauna. Then I go out in the snow after the sauna for a little cold therapy. Then I come back and do my cold shower and then I start my day doing work.
Today is about 8.25. So that was about a three hour morning ritual of self care. Of course now everyone is listening like oh my God, I could possibly spend three hours of self care. I assure you, I didn't do the beginning either. You just gradually figure out what you could begin adding and fitting into your day. And I don't always do a three hour routine. Some days, you know, I sleep until 730 and maybe only do a half hour sauna and I'm just going to do some walks during the day. So it fluctuates day to day. I also have not eaten. I did a protein smoothie after my strength training. I've not eaten yet. I'll have a big chicken salad and a bunch of a sauerkraut tonight for supper and then my daughter and I are going to play a Sherlock board game that usually will take us about another two hours tonight A lot of problem solving. That's a very interesting game that we both enjoy.
0:38:32 - Amy Myers
So you have some social bonding, problem solving, so it's a great cognitive stressor and lots of fun and when you're traveling or you have a really busy day, do you have some non-negotiables, and what are they? Is it always meditation? Is it always a walk? What are the non-negotiables for you?
0:38:53 - Terry Wahls
I have to have some physical activity. So at the very least, I'm going to do my balance training Like that. Particularly when you're in the second over the age of 50 for MS, balance training is so powerful and it doesn't take much time to do, and so I like to do that, and I really like to wind down and have a gratitude practice to fall asleep by Awesome, I suppose the other thing is I have to be so careful about what I eat. If I have any gluten, dairy or eggs that will trigger my face pain, oh wow. And so trigeminal neuralgia is so brutal it is, and like I am just so careful about what I'm eating and if there's concern I will fast, I'll just have tea.
0:39:43 - Amy Myers
Eat. On a different note just the trigeminal neuralgia made me think of it is have you seen an uptick in symptoms or flares? Perhaps is a better word for those with MS after having COVID or having the vaccine? Absolutely yeah, because I have a friend who has MS and he was had big flares after having it and then mentioned and it takes it longer to clear.
0:40:10 - Terry Wahls
So you get a flare that's a pseudo wraps and then it will take many months to get back to baseline. And we know long COVID is really autoimmune processes that are increased, you know I should mention that we have a long COVID study. So if there are people listening who have long COVID, please email us at aimed hyphen studies at you, Iowa dot edu, and we can get you the link to screen for that so yeah, please do, and we'll get that in the show notes as well.
0:40:41 - Amy Myers
I hadn't heard you mention in your arsenal of things that you use personally hyperbaric oxygen. I've personally found that very helpful for myself with autoimmunity. Many people in my clinic and then when I had COVID I was having severe fatigue A few weeks later and concerned I might get long COVID. So I hopped in the hyperbaric section and in a couple sessions it was gone.
0:41:08 - Terry Wahls
I have not had any personal experience with hyperbaric. It's certainly without junk. I had COVID too, as I had gone to a scientific conference in Las Vegas and came back and had COVID a few days later and it took me a couple weeks to recover from that and I was like okay, well, if things don't get quickly resolved here, I'll be checking out the hyperbaric.
0:41:32 - Amy Myers
Unfortunately, I'm back strength training and doing my aerobic trial I mean anecdotally for me, and then I've passed it on to others had similar successes. So it may be something for your trial that y'all may want to look into. I'm fortunate I have one at my house.
0:41:47 - Terry Wahls
It would have to be a new trial. Okay, oh yeah, you're already, of course, of course.
0:41:51 - Amy Myers
We can't add it to the crew, right, of course. Well, what do you see on the horizon? Are there new drugs following your programming?
0:42:01 - Terry Wahls
There are millions, are actually probably billions of dollars being spent on remyelination drugs which were great in mice and in rats and have either no effect or tiny tiny effect in humans, and so, as a result, we ended up making a remyelination course for my people and a restoring function course. That's been super helpful to help people understand that we know a lot about why my own repair fails. We have learned a lot through the mouse models and then, using my functional medicine perspective, I'm like okay, so we can use all of that. And now here are my thoughts on how you better improve your ability to repair your my own and that's been very helpful. In fact, I'm talking with my team about what we might do next with that to make that course more widely available Awesome.
0:43:06 - Amy Myers
And yeah, I just have to tell you I was well. First I was thinking about Christina Applegate, I mean, because there's all this news, I think the Golden Globes and maybe she was there. Has anybody from her team reached out? She needs to know you.
0:43:19 - Terry Wahls
Oh, I know, and we have many well known actors and actresses that have MS who sort of reach out to us and we're happy to chat with them and with the round is behavior change is hard and without the support of the family and the medical team they're like easier to just take the DMTs and accept the limitations.
0:43:47 - Amy Myers
I was traveling on a plane not too long ago and the woman was one seat over from me and her bag fell and it was all these prescriptions and she brought up that she had MS and I so, of course, mentioned you and mentioned my book. And you can just see the glazing over when she's like, oh, is she something? And I say, oh, no, it's really a diet and lifestyle intervention. And then she just completely was doing anything she could to just kind of shift over, get away from me like not interested, Meanwhile dumping over her bag full of orange brown prescription bottles.
0:44:25 - Terry Wahls
In. What is really hard is if the spouse really wants to embrace all that. The patient doesn't want to. So the spouse reaches out to me and I'm like the best thing you could do is you yourself could embrace the diet and lifestyle and let them see how easy it could happen to see the transformation in your life and let them be curious. And then they may embrace it or they may not. But you can't control them. You can only control your own actions.
0:44:58 - Amy Myers
Yeah, it's very difficult seeing a loved one make a different choice than you would make, and I remember when I was practicing, a lot of people saying, oh, I have to give this up or I have to give that up. But when you feel so much better it's not even giving it up. You enjoy it and you feel better and that way outweighs that. Or you could be on drugs that my father. I was able to help him. He had polyomyositis and I was able to get him off all of his drugs and he was on cells up and methotrexate and all of it and then he had a flare and I was dealing with the toxic mold exposure and he went back on his drugs and within six months he was in the hospital with sepsis and the ICU and, you know, eventually passed away. So it's like either you can take these dietary lifestyle interventions that for many, many, many people work or these drugs that leave you open to exposure.
0:45:53 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, and also lead to accelerated aging. The autoimmune diseases is part of accelerated aging certainly MS, that accelerates aging. And then you take the DMTs, which accelerates aging a little further, or you embrace the diet and lifestyle changes that are associated with accelerated health. And what we saw at the VA, I see in my clinics and we see in our clinical trials, is people come in and they look younger and younger. And so now we are saying be sure you take a photo of yourself and do a little video of your hopes and dreams right now, because we predict that you will see in the next year a much younger person looking back at you.
0:46:44 - Amy Myers
Awesome. Well, before we part, I like to ask guests what are three things that you can recommend to our listeners right now that they can do tomorrow to take back their health?
0:46:57 - Terry Wahls
Well, one is follow me on Instagram to get to see what I'm eating and doing. That is super fun.
0:47:03 - Amy Myers
Definitely make liver look good.
0:47:05 - Terry Wahls
Yeah, liver can be so yummy. Know your why? If your home was being to have smoke roll out of the windows, who or what would you rush into the house to save? Because it creating new habits, new diet and lifestyle does take some effort. And if you know you're doing this because you want to be there more effectively for your children or your grandchildren or your spouse, it's a whole lot easier when you have that mental clarity. And then I invite you, before as you fall asleep at night, visualize someone or a place for which you are grateful, so you can fall asleep to some gratitude in your heart.
0:47:49 - Amy Myers
Those are excellent, easy, free suggestions. I appreciate it and go sit outside.
0:47:57 - Terry Wahls
Yes, yes, ideally take a walk, but at the very least, you know just, please, just sit on your deck, sit on the sidewalk or sit in a chair next to the sidewalk. Be outside.
0:48:11 - Amy Myers
Well, excellent. Thank you very much, Dr Terry walls. We will have all your information in the show notes, but if you would like to share how people can find you and follow you, we welcome.
0:48:22 - Terry Wahls
So my webpage ter wallscom. If you go to ter wallscom forward slash m s study, you can screen for the study ter wallscom forward slash diet. You'll get a cheat sheet. My Instagram is Dr D R Terry walls. T E R R Y walls. W A H L S.
0:48:42 - Amy Myers
Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much, and I hope that our listeners have learned something from you today.
0:48:52 - Terry Wahls
Wonderful Thanks, Amy Bye.
0:48:54 - Amy Myers
I want to thank this week's guests for sharing their time and knowledge and thank you for listening. To read the full show notes for each episode, which include a summary, timestamp, quotes and any resources mentioned, please visit Amy Myers MD dot com. Forward slash podcast. Lastly, if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify and we'll select a few to read out loud in a future episode. Tune in next week to hear from another inspiring guest as we help you take back your health.
